Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 29 (33rd Legislature, 1st Session)

33-1-29

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, 18 June, 1986. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER, Hon. M. Phillips: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Burrows. MR. C. SANTOS: Madam Speaker, the Commitee of Supply has considered certain resolutions, directs me to report progress and asks leave to sit again . I move, seconded by the Member for Inkster, that the Report of the Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried.

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology . HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would like to table the Annual Report of A.E. McKenzie Co. Ltd ., Consolidated Financial Statements as of October 31, 1985 and 1984, together with the Auditor's Report. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance . HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I, too , would like to table a report, the report of Flyer Industries Limited, Report and Financial Statements, for the year ending December 31, 1985 .

MADAM SPEAKER: Notices of Motion Introduction of Bills . . INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MADAM SPEAKER: Before we proceed to Oral Quest ions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have 34 students from Churchill High School under the direction of Mrs. Ogren. The school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Community Services. We have 12 students from Grades 7, 8 and 9 from the Community Bible Fellowship School under the direction of Mr. Jack Dyck . The school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Natural Resources.

On behalf of all the members, may I welcome you to the Legislature this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS MPIC - appoint of new president MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Madam Speaker , my question is for the Premier. Following upon reports of the last couple of days, I wonder if the Premier could indicate whether or not the government has ruled out all of the vice-presidents of MPIC as potential candidates for the presidency of MPIC. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister . HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, this morning the Cabinet in its meeting appointed Robert Silver as the new acting manager of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation . Mr. Silver is the Deputy Minister of Crown Investments, and we're very proud to appoint him during the upcoming period as the acting chairman . MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, a further question on that topic, given the lack of confidence that that move shows in the current vice-presidents of the corporation , will the Premier be instructing that the Auditor review their conduct over the past couple of years? HON. H.

PAWLEY: I'm sorry, I missed the latter part of the question. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, given the lack of confidence that that move shows in the current vice presidents of the corporation, will the Premier be instructing that the Auditor review the actions of the vice-presidents over the past couple of years? HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, that is being done as a result of a request which the Minister indicated was forwarded to the board of directors to review the work of the vice-presidents and also to bring to him a plan of action insofar as ensuring that the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation is put on a basis that we can all, as Manitobans, be justifiably proud of its operations. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker , given the review that was done which led to the firing of the president was done by the Auditor and that the board was totally unaware of the actions of the pres ident that led to his firing, I wonder if he would not consider having the review done by the Auditor , rather than the board who obviously weren 't in touch with the problems and concerns that had been raised in the corporation. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I thought that the Minister made it very, very clear that it was his action 1019

Wednesday, 18 June, 1986 as Minister responsible for th e M anitoba Public Insurance Corporation that resulted immediately on his

part in forwarding the allegations to the Provincial Auditor . As a result of the Minister's action, a report came from the Provincial Auditor which resulted in the action by this administration ensuring that the general manager be fired insofar as the poor judgment on the part of the manager of the Manitoba Public Insur ance Corporation .

Madam Speaker , we are also anxious to check out all sales or any other improper actions, particularly in respect to the overruling that took place apparently in January 1985 of the policy pertaining to the sale of salvaged vehicles, to ensure that there are no other instances of the kind of abuse that was pointed out to us by the Provincial Auditor. MR. G. FILMON: That's exactly my point. The allegations were brought directly to the Minister, and the Minister admitted that the board knew nothing of them or of the conduct that was alleged. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister on a point of order . HON. H.

PAWLEY: Let me assist the Leader of the Opposition, because I wouldn't want the Leader of the Opposition to base his presumption on an incorrect assumption . The Minister in the House indicated that he had shared the information with the chairperson of the board insofar as ... MADAM SPEAKER: Order please , orde r please. A dispute over the facts is not a point of order. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition with a supplementary with no

preamble. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker , it is the Premie r who doesn't understand . My point is . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please . Question Period is not a time for debate . Does the honourable member have a question? MR. G. FILMON: Absolutely , Madam Speaker . The board was unaware prior to it being brought to the attention of the Minister. Therefore, I ask the Premier , since the board was unaware of the first set of allegations that led to the firing, should he not ask the Auditor to do the review rather than the board who are not in touch with the concerns of the corporation? HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I indicated that the Provincial Auditor had already been requested to dq a review insofar as all sales of salvage vehicles between January 1985 up to the present time . MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker , given the lack of confidence in the vice-presidents to assume the presidency of the corporation, is the Prem ier satisfied that they are still competent to act in their curren t circumstances? HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker , let me say that as far as we are concerned , if the board or the Provincial Auditor feel that there is need, based upon any additional information for a further audit, then I would encourage them to do so and, in

part icular , the Provincial Auditor to do so in respect to any other areas. We are anxious to ensure that the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation is put on a sound basis that Manitobans can have confidence in because I do not want the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation to be placed in the kind of position again that they were between 1977 and 1981 when the Conservative Party, while in government, spent $0.5 million trying to destroy the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation in Manitoba. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, we had no scandals in 1977 to '81 that resulted in the firing of a president.

SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. I have already reminded honourable members that Question Period is not a time for debate . It's time for questions . Order please. I am reminding all honourable members. Are the honourable members ready to proceed with Question Period? MR. G. FILMON: Absolutely. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourab le Leader of the Opposition with a question. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker , given the loss of confidence in the vice-presidents of the corporation , is the Premier satisf ied that they are competent to act under current positions? HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I did not indicate that we had lack of confidence in the vice-presidents . What I indicated at this time was that Mr. Silver was being appointed the president of the corporation as an acting position in lieu of the elevation of any one of the present vice-presidents to the position of acting president. Gag orders on officials - MPIC MR. G. FILMON: Mad am Speaker , on a new question, with a

preamble , to the Premier. Yesterday the Prem .ier indicated that he didn't understand what my colleague from Lakeside was talking about when he referred to the gag order that had been imposed on the communicators of Manitoba Hydro by the Chairman, Mr. Eliesen. Today we find that a similar gag order has been placed on the communicators at MPIC by the Minister responsible . Now , I wonder if the Premier will indicate whether he is now prepared to act to remove the gag orders so that these high -pr iced communicators can do their job of discussing things with the public and indeed with the media. HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, the actions pertaining to the firing of Mr. Laufer as the President of the Manitob a Public Insurance Corporation is a 1020

Wednesday, 18 June, 1986 responsibility of this government, the responsibility of the Minister and myself. We will not pas s the buck. We will deal with any questions in respect to Lauf er rather than delegating the response to those questions to others . Gag orders on officials - Manitoba Hydro MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, my question is will the Premier allow the high-priced communicators at Manitoba Hydro , MPIC to communicate with the media and answer their questions?

MADAM SPEAKER: May I remind the honourable member that a question should not repeat in substance a question already answered or to which an answer has been refused. Does the honourable member have a new question? MR. G. FILMON: Yes, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: Or a supplementary? MR. G. FILMON: Okay, thank you.

Given that there are gag orders in existence on the communicators at Manitoba Hydro and at MPIC , will the Premier now act in the openness of the government that he said he would lead to allow these high -pr iced communicators to answer the questions and to discuss matters under their purview with the media of this province? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, for the third time in response to the question posed in three different ways, the communicators, whether it be of Manitoba Hydro, whether it be of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation are there to provide support in preparation of communication.

There can and there must be only certain individuals that assume the responsibility of communication and on policy, and that may be the president of a corporation, that may the Minister. In specific referenc e to Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation, the matters pertaining to Mr. Laufer, it is the Minister in this case, because of the Minister's absence, myself that will prov ide informa tion as requested. MR. G. FILMON: On what items of information are the communicators at Manitoba Hydro not permitted to speak to the media? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines. HON. V.

SCHROEDER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I was assuming the Leader of the Opposition was asking a question of the Premier and I was not paying attention. Could the Leader of the Opposition repeat that question? MR. G. FILMON: On what items of information are the communicators at Manitoba Hydro not permitted to speak to the media? HON. V. SCHROEDER: Madam Speaker, I believe there's a basic readiness on the part of communicators at Hydro to speak generally in the same way they have in the past and that will continue on.

There have been some concerns raised with respect to people and their children being asked questions about Hydro policy, and so on, by one specific media outlet. There have been requests from people to have the personal harassment stopped. The chairman of Hydro has indi cated that questions from that outlet can come to them in writing and they will be dealt with .

Just while I'm on my feet , there was a suggestion yesterday in my absence by the Member for Lakeside that somehow that was applied to members of this Chamber, and I want to assure members of this Chamber that that is not true ; that any member of this Chamber can ask any questions they like and they will be answered. MR. G. FILMON: Because, Madam Speaker, I know that the Minister would not want to tar all members of the med ia with the same brush. Which specific media outlet has been barred from asking questions directly of communicators and staff of Manitoba Hydro? HON. V.

SCHROEDER: Madam Speaker, I understand that it is the people who are asking questions of people's children. MR. G. FILMON: Well, again, Madam Speaker, I know that all of the professional people in the Press Gallery would not want to have their reputations involved in this accusation, so I wonder if he could clarify of which media outlet are these people members , so that they're not all tarred with the same brush? HON. V.

SCHROEDER: Madam Speaker, I do want to point out to members of the House that there have been an awful lot of questions being asked of staff who , if they were to answer all of those questions, basically we would be paying for their time to do the research for the Winnipeg Free Press . We have said that if they want quest ion s answered, they can put them in writing. There are some other problems, quite frankly, with that organization and Hydro .

There have been suggestions made by reporters that have, in fact , later proven to be incorrect and we feel that the approprite way to deal with them is to have them list their questions, in writing , and they will be answered , in writing; so that there 's no misunderstanding afterwards as to what the questions were and as to what the answers are. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, I wonder if the Premier could indicate: have all government departments then put a gag order on their communicators not to deal directly with the Winnipeg Free Press? 1021 MADAM SPEAKER: The Hono urable First Minister . HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker , I must say that the government's Ministers and whatnot have had no difficulty in dealing with particular questions from reporters of our gallery up above, and will continue to do so. I think probably, by way of comparison, this has been one of the most open governments .

Wed~esday, 18 June, 19~6 Fr,~dom of Information Act - · · proclamation of MR. D. ORCHARD: What about The Freedom of !~formation Act? HON. H. PAWLEY: The Member for Pembina asked about where The Freedom of Information Act is, Madam Speaker. The freedom of Information Act was proceeded with, Madam Speaker, by this administration, despite repeated promises for years by honourable members across the way. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. Answers should deal with the matter raised . The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Yes, Madam Speaker , I'll give the Premier.

MADAM SPEAKER: Order please , and also, if honourable members insist on asking questions from their seats, they can't expect to get answers . The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker , I much prefer to ask them standing up, but my question to the Premier then is, given his commitment to open government, would he then assure this House that The Freedom of Information Act that was passed in June of 1985 will be proclaimed by the end of June, 1986? HON. H.

PAWLEY: You know, the Leader of the Opposition complained about his research budget the other day, and I think maybe we should look at some improvement to that research budget because the Attorney-General has several times indicated the processes that are under way in order to ensure that The Freedom of Information Act is in a position to be proclaimed. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, my resea rch shows that at one time the Attorney-General indicated it woul d be proclaimed by November of last year. We are now in June of 1986.

Can he give us the assurance that it will be proclaimed by the end of June 1986, one year after it was passed? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: Madam Speaker , I want to assure the House and the people of Manitoba that this government remains utterly dedicated to the implementation of The Freedom of Information Act. I am a member of, members of my department are members of, members of the Department of the Minister of Culture and Heritage are members of a Freedom of Information Implementation Group .

We recently had a presentation from the Chief Archivist of the province, including what he called a photo essay of the horrible state of the records in this government, something we should all be ashamed of. The problem that they're having, and they're working with departments and we've assigned additional resources, to complete the job of preparing file schedules, without which you can't implement the act, and the access guide which is dependent upon the preparation of the file schedules . I can assure the House , Madam Speaker, that just as soon as that is ready, the act will be proclaimed.

If we were to proclaim the act before we are able to meet the requests which must be answered within 30 days, we would not be able to , in fact, fulfill our legal obligations . Just as soon as we have the files scheduled, the access guide prepared, the act will be proclaimed. There can be no doubt about that. Manitoba Energy Authority Board minutes - availability of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Madam Speaker, my question is fo r the Minister of Energy and Mines.

Do members of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition have access to the minutes of the Manitoba Energy Authority board meetings? MADAM SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you , Madam Speaker. I'll tak e that question as notice . MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Speaker, while the Minister is taking th at question as notice, would he find out from Mr.

Eliesen, who is chairman of the Manitoba Energy Authority, a man given $500,000 of signing authority in the MEA, has to refer requests to view the board minutes to this Minister who just took the question as notice for approval for members of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition to read the minutes of the board meetings of the Manitoba Energy Authority? HON. V. SCHROEDER: Madam Speaker, the member had a number of days just recently to ask any question he wanted of the Manitoba Energy Authority at the Public Utilities Committee.

Madam Speaker , if this was such an urgent question , he certainly could have asked it at that time . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina w_ith a supplementary? MR. D. ORCHARD: Yes, Madam Speaker. Is the Minister of Energy and Mines now indicating to us that we have no access to the board minutes of the Manitoba Energy Authorit y until next year's hearings at which Manitoba Hydro and MEA will be before the committee? 1022 HON. V. SCHROEDER : Madam Speaker , I suppose the Memb er for Pembina didn 't hear me the first time . I said I'd take it as notice.

C-96 - status of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kildonan .

Wednesday, 18 June, 1986 MR. M. DOLIN: Thank you. My question is to the Minister of Finance. In view of the meetings held with the Federal Government by our Ministers of Education and Health on Bill C-96, could the Minister inform the House of what the present status of that bil l is, and will there be any room for further negotiations between the provinces and the Federal Government? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you , Madam Speaker .

The committee hearings that were in progress by the Federal House have concluded and the bill is back in debate in the House of Commons . I learned, regrettably , just today that the Federal Government has invoked closure on the debate on that bill by a time allocation motion which was introduced today, Madam Spea ker, in the House . I quite frankly regret that actio n because as members are aware, initia lly we asked for cros s-C anada hearings to deal with this bill. That was rejected.

The Federal Government committee rejected any representation from groups other than national organizations and now they've moved closure on the debate. I would hope that the Federal Government would still relock at this, hold back on the bill, and allow for negotiations to take place by Ministers of Finance on the overall financial issue s; by Ministers of Health and Education on those issues regarding the impact on those two areas. I will be meeting later this week with the Federal Minister of Finance and I would again put that position forward to him.

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kildonan with a supplementary. MR. M. DOLIN: A supplementary, Madam Speaker. Would the Minister advise the House as to whether or not submissi ons will be made to the committee or will tha t be, as he stated , via the Federal Minister of Finance? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: Unless the Federal House agrees to go back into committee, there can be no further representations to the Federal House, though I intend to certainly let all Senators, particularly Senators from Manitoba, know of the concerns and share with them a copy of the presentations that were made, so they will be informed once the bill is referred to Senate, since it appears it's being rammed through the House of Commons .

I intend to suggest to the Minister of Finance that we pull back and allow for an opening up of discussions on these important issues again because I believe , as I believe most Manitobans do, that these issues are far too important to be simply rammed through in a bill through the Federal House. MR. M. DOLIN: A final supplementary, Madam Speaker, given the last comments of the Minister. Is the Minister considering meeting with his equivalent Ministers of Finance from the other provinces to develop some form of joint strategy to try and take action to prevent C-96 from having its effect on Manitoba? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: Most Finan ce Ministers , and indeed Health and Education Ministers, have taken the same pos ition with respect to this issue and that is to say that there ought to be negotiations with respect to these issues, and not arbit rary actions by the ramming of the bill through the Federal House . I will be meeting with the Federal Minister of Finance and the Provincial Ministers of Finance this Friday and I will raise the issue with them to discuss it further with them. Eliesen, Marc - contracts MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G.

MERCIER: Madam Speaker , a question to the Minister of Energy and Mines . Over two weeks , or about two weeks ago, the Minister took as not ice a question that I asked him, to tab le a copy of Mr. Eliesen 's contract. He also took as notice my questions for information with respect to rental of a car, personal expenses , and a signing bonus. Can he provide that information to the House tod ay? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines . HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I don't have the contract here.

I received the numbers in terms of the vehicle and if the member has another question , maybe while he's asking it, I will be able to find it here . MPIC - appointment of new president MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the First Minister . A few moments ago, the Minister said that he had no lack of confidence in the vice-presidents of MPIC. Surely you 're not allowing any of them to rise to the level of acting president; that's exactly what in fact they have said. MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have a question? MRS .

S. CARSTAIRS: Does the government no longer have confidence in the vice-presidents? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister . HON. H. PAWLEY: I answered that question. I indicated earlier, by way of a question from the Leader of the Opposition , that the non-appointment did not mean lack of confidence in the vice-presidents. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: A supplementa ry question to the First Minister, Madam Speaker. Is it appropriate at this time that we wait six months to a year before a new president is sought after? 1023

Wednesday, 18 June, 1986 HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker , I thank the Leader of the Opposition for that question - (Interjection) - I'm sorry, the true Leader of the Opposition . Madam Speaker , I would certainly hope that it will not take six to eight months in order for us to have a president of the MPIC . For the time-being, the position will be filled in an acting president capacity. There will be a compe titio n. At that time any one of the vice presidents, or others , will be in a position to app ly.

I concur with the Member for River Heights, we would want to be in a position to appoint a president well before six to eight months. But in the meantime there will be an acting president from outside the corporation. Bill C-117 - the Farm Debt Review Act MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden . MR. G. FINDLAY: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Agriculture .

Given the fact that Bill C-117, the Farm Debt Review Act that has been tabled in the House of Commons of Canada, encompasses a med iation board and panels to negotiate an arrangement between a farmer and a creditor, with recourse to the court still available to each party after the agree ment is struck, I would like to ask the Minister, has he held discussions, or is he plannin g discussions in the short term in connection with th is bill that was brought into the Federal Hou se of Commons, to speak with the Ministe r of Agricultur e federally? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. B.

URUSKI: Madam Speaker , I have in fact just analyzed the present legislation that was tabled in the House of Commons, and I would say that legislation is what I characterize as a toothless tiger. There is no incentive in the legislation to bring lende rs to the table. In fact , if they don't wish to come to the table and discuss the financial plight of far mers, they don't have to come . It's a total voluntary process . Madam Speaker , in Manitoba we 've had that voluntary proc ess in place here since 1983 . We know there has been some successes in that area and of course there have been some failures.

If the financial institution is not willing to come and discuss and renegotiate and set aside, there is no compelling port ion of the legislation that can force them to do that. As a result, Madam Speaker, this legislation is totally ineffective .

We are saying to the Minister of Agriculture - and I intend to follow up on my letter but as yet I've had just an acknowledgement from his office that they have rec eived the letter - we intend to be in contact with him to indicate to him now that farm organizations nationally and in Manitoba have basically supported the Manitoba legislation ; that the Federal Ministe r of Agriculture should be prepared to pass the procedu ral amendments that we have asked, so that any province may follow the lead of Manitoba.

Or if they don 't wish to follow the lead of Manitoba , they don't have to be forced into any type of voluntary arrangement th at they don 't like. MADAM SPEAKER: Could I remind the Honourable Ministers to keep their answers as brief as possible. The Hon ourable Member for Virden. MR. G. FINDLAY: Given the fact then that there is a possibility that both bills may be enacted, what conflicts do you see for your provincial legislation when both bills are enacted? MADAM SPEAKER: That question is hypothetical. Would the honourable membe r lik e to rephrase his question? MR. G.

FINDLAY: There are potential co nflicts between the two bills . Will the Minister outline what conflicts exist for Manitoba? HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Spea ker, there cert ainly could be con flicts in terms of the poss ibility of having a set of separate boards with no mandate to force lenders to the table, and the legislation that may come in would be, certainly, as I have indicated, be confusing to M anitoba farmers and to other farmers in Saska tchewan where there is also legislation in place in that province; that process we expect will be negotiated as a result of the passage of legislation.

But, as well, Madam Speaker, that legislation has no basis for follow -up as our legislation does in terms of providing some measures of financial support in terms of negotiat ions. In fact , Madam Speaker, we are told that if there will be a removal of the moratorium on FCC foreclosures, coupled with the rural transition program, this process could in fact be the slide to take more people out of agriculture in a very easy way. We are totally opposed to that , Madam Speaker. MR. G.

FINDLAY: Will the Minister meet with the farm community to let them help in making decisions as to which is the better pie ce of legislation? 1024 HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker, there is no piece of legislation in terms of principle that has ever been discussed as widely as th is piece of legislation in the Province of Manitoba . Madam Speaker , just last winter, we met with over 1,100 Manitoba farmers at public meetings - 14 meetings. Madam Speaker, in fact, the Opposition accused me and this government of not moving fast enough on this whole process. Now they say they want more consultation, Madam Speaker.

What do they want? They want consultation or they want legislation? We'v e done both, Madam Speaker. Eliesen, Marc - contracts MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance .. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mad am Speaker. The motor vehicle cost to . . . MADAM SPEAKER: ... excuse me, the Honourable Minister of Industry , Trade and Technology.

Wednesday, 18 June, 1986 HON. V. SCHRO EDER: The motor vehicle cost to the Manitoba Energy Authori ty, there is a lease at $529 a month, in answer to the Member for St. Norbert. MR. D. ORCHARD: How does that compare to the K car, Howie? HON. V. SCHRO EDER: Oh, Mada m Speaker , the Member for Pembina says how does that compare with the K-car? This car, in fact, replaces a Buick Electra which had been purchased by the previous government, which would now be at about $30,000 or more dollars, and is a much more economical car and is a Canadian built car. Bill No. 4 MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Morris.

MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you, Madam Speaker . I dire ct my attention to the Minis ter of Cooperative Affairs. Madam Speaker , as was ind icated by the Min ister of Agriculture that there is some conflict between these two farm debt bills, one provincial and one federal, and certainly there is a lot of confusion within the agricultural community, I would ask the Min ister of Coope rative Affairs whether he has had any representation from members of Credit Union Central with respect to their concerns where they have registered some of their apprehensions with respect to certain parts of Bill No. 4?

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Co op Dev elopment. HON. J. COWAN: Thank you, Madam Speaker . lt is my understanding that representatives of the credit union and the caisses populaire systems both are reviewing the bill and in tend to make representations to the government in a detailed way as to their particular response to provisions of that bill. I have indicated to them, as I have on all occasions where they have sug gested there is a concern with activities that they would like to discuss with the government, that I and other Mi nisters are available to them for those discussions.

I look forward to them; I have always found that dialogue a way to discuss issues of particular concern in the past and in many instances to resolve particular concerns or at least to gain a better understanding of the positions of the different parties. MR. C. MANNES: Madam Speaker , I would ask either Minis ter, given that he has admitted that there are some concerns that the Credit Union Central has, can he indic ate specifically to the House what those concerns are? HON. J.

COWAN: Had the member lis tened care fully , he would have heard me say that I am expecting to meet with representatives of the credit union and the caisses popula ire systems. When they have identified the specific items that they wish to bring forward, and when they do that, we will have that dialogue with them. Until I have had an opportunity to have that sort of a meeting with them, I think it would be pre-empted and probably not - (Interjection) - well, the members opposite are yelling from their seats that we should discuss it with them first.

I believe that a grassroot system like the credit union and caisses populaire system should discuss among their own membership and themselves the positions they want to bring forward to government. Then we can deal with those positions, rather than having the Mini ster stand in here and try to tell members opposite or anyone what the posit ions of that particu lar independent system should be. MR. C. MANNESS: A final suppleme ntary, Madam Speaker.

Is the Mini ster then indi cating that the government is prepared to make major amendments to this bill when and if the Credit Union Central brings forward their major concerns such that they want to protect and safeguard the interests of the rural depositors who have lodged deposits within their institutions? HON. J. COWAN: The Min ister of Agriculture has ind icated that he is prepared to receive representations and submissions as Mi nister of Agriculture responsible for the bill.

As Mi nister responsible for the credit union and caisses populaire system, I have ind icated that I am prepared to receive representations from those parties and to enter into a dialogue which I believe will be product ive at the very least in enabling us to identify for each other our particular concerns and discuss them in a positive fashion. Once we have had the opportunity to do that, we will take the appropriate action, but government must govern in the best interests of all the citizens.

We are a government that has shown consistently that we are committed to bring forward legislation which provides benefits to a society as a whole while at the same time attempting to deal with individual concerns as they are brought forward. lt has worked in the past. lt has enabled us to bring forward good legislation. lt will work in the future and we will continue to do that. Western Grain Stabilization Act MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. C. BAKER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Mi nister of Agriculture.

The Federal Go vernment is considerin g recommendations of the committee chaired by Lee Clark which have the farmers incr ease their share of the contribution paid under the Western Gr ain Stabilization Act. Could the Minister ind icate the impact this change would have on Manitoba farmers? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker, I under stand that the committee is considering additional levels of support in terms of the Western Grain Stabilization Program. 1025

Wednesday, 18 June, 1986 We have made proposals and recommendations to the Federal Stan ding Committee on Agricultur e for fundamental changes to the Western Grain Stabilization Act. Ma da m Sp eak er, western farmer s are being discrim inated against by the Federal Government whereby wheat producers in Eastern Canada pay no premiums for a stabilization plan and Western Canadian farmers have to pay one-third of the premiums in terms of the Western Gr ain Stabi liz ation plan. Tha t is discrimination, Madam Speaker , and that's the kind of support that should not be put into place.

MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. Legisla tion -visiting rights re children MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Mem ber for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Thank you, Madam Speaker . My qu estion is to the Attorney-G eneral. In light of Mr.

Justice Monnin's reported comments during a hearing in which the Appeal Court threw out the visiting rights a single mother's former boyfriend had to her five-year old, that sections of Manitoba provincial legislation that allow non-rela tives visiting rights to childr en are ridiculous, will the Mini ster change the legislation to protect single mothers or fathers from having to go to court to stop non- relatives getting visiting rights against parents' wishes? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R.

PENNER: Madam Speaker , it is the better part of wisdom in this case, as in other cases, where the court pronounces on legislation to await the written reasons for judgment so that we can see precisely what the court decided and on the basis of what facts. My understanding of that case is that indeed the decision of the Court of Appeal turned, at least in part, on an error in fact made by the trial judge bel ow. To what extent the decision turned on problems with the legislation, we'll have to see, waiting for the judgment.

I can assure the member, and I thank her for that qu estion, that when we have a chance to peruse the judgment, if it calls for remedial action in the legislation, then indeed the Mini ster of Community Services and I will meet and make recommendations perhaps even for an amendment at this Session if necessary. MADAM SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has expired. SPEAKER'S RULING MADAM SPEAKER: Before we move to Orders of the Day, I have a statement. - (Interjection) - Order please, order please. Order please.

I wish to take this opportunity to draw to the attention of the House my concern about speech content and some of the language which is being used in debate, language which comes close to breaching our Rules and Beauchesne's Citations, and in some cases actually does. Members who share my concern also have a responsibility to draw to the attention of the Chair infractions which they belie ve have occurred. Our Rule 41(1) and Beauchesne's Citations 316 , 320, 322 to 326 apply. Infractions against the dign ity and decorum of deba te reflect un fav ourably on the Legislative Assembly and upon all ML A's.

The use of references such as "utilize the public purse for whatever purpose necess ary, " "dis honest statement," "piece of misinformation," "misinform the public, " "play a little loo se and careless with the trut h," border on unp arl iamentary language and certainly would be considered so if specific members were identified. More specifically now, I wish to refer to the point of order raised by the Honourable Member for Morris on June 16 respecting statements made in debate by the Honourable Member for Thompson as recorded on Page 913 of Hansard for that date.

The Mem ber for Thompson has alleged, respec ting a particular letter, that: "A member or members of the Opposition intercepted that mail, opened it, copied it, and returned the original to my office and then used that in qu estion perio d. " Such charges must be raised as matters of privile ge in an established manner, but when raised in debate, as they were on Mon day, contravene our Rule 41(1) and Beauchesne Citation 316 (

e) and (f), regarding the use of offensive language against another member, imputing bad motives and making personal charges. I should add that in order for the matter to have been dealt with as a matter of privilege, the Member for Thompson would have had to establish that the matter was being raised at the earliest opportunity and have presented sufficient evidence in support of the claim that his privilege as a member, in his parliamentary work, had been interfered with to warrant giving the matter precedence over the reg ularly sched ule d business of the Hous e.

Before proce eding, I remind all members when they are uncertain about how to deal with a particular matter that they are welcome to consult myself or the Clerk for advice. I find that the Honourable Member for Thompson has contr avened our Rule 41(1) by using offensive language against other members and I must therefore ask him to withdraw the charges made. The Ho nourable Mem ber for Thompson. - (Interjection) - Order please. MR. S. ASHTON: Madam Speaker , I regret that I did not follow the prescribed form for matter of privilege as you outlined and that I did raise that matter in a grievance.

I did outline in my speech various matters of concern to me, which relate to the interception of my mail. However, out of respect to yourself and this House, I certainly will withdraw any of those statements which you felt were unparli amentary. I will go further, Madam Speaker, and say that I accept the statements that have been made to me by members in this House and outside of this House that they had no

part in this matter. I still have a concern about the interception of my mail, Madam Speaker , but I will withd raw any of those comments, which were 1026

Wednesday, 18 June, 1986 considered unparliamentary, on the understanding that I still feel there was a very serious breach of my mail privilege which did take place. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Opposition House Leade r. MR. G. MERCIER: Well, Madam Speaker , I ask you to consider whether the qualification that the Member for Thomps on put on his withdrawal fits in with your ruling asking him to withdraw in total the charges made. I do not, for one , as a member of this side of the House, accept that conditional withdrawal that he just made. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J.

COWAN: Madam Speaker, I think the Member for Tho mpson very clearly indicated that in respect for the traditio ns of th is House that he accepts the word of members opposite that they did not in fact intercept the mail, that they did not open the mail , that he was prepared to do so and I believe that is what was asked of him . He also indicated at the same time that he had concerns , which he expressed in his grievance, and those concerns are still concerns of his , but he did not relate them directly to members opposite , and I believe that was the substance of the point . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MADAM SPEAKER: Order . Order please. HON. J. COWAN: . . . of order and for that reason has complied with the suggestion that in fact he provide to the House an assurance that he was not reflecting upon members opposite in the manner in which it was suggested had been done . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please . This is a very serious matter . I would hope all members would be very calm until it's settled to everyone's satisfaction , including mine. - (Interjection) - Order please .

Could I ask the Honourable Member for Thompson whether the understanding, as expressed by the Honourable Government House Leader, that all imputations against any member in the Chamber has been withdrawn to their satisfaction , and that any concerns the honourable member do not relate to any member of the House . MR. S. ASHTON: Madam Speaker , I accepted the word of those who stated tha t they were not involved in this matter . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. S. ASHTON: Further , Madam Speaker , you cited MADAM SPEAKER: Order please , order please . We will deal with this calmly. MR. S.

ASHTON: Further , Mad am Speaker, you cited one

section of my com ments , which I understand you considered to be unparliament ary, which I withdrew. I thought I made that clear in my remarks. I stated I still have a concern about the fact that I feel my mail was intercepted and if it is your guidance that I cannot say anything further on thi s matter, beyond what I've already said, that would be unparliamentary , I will not do so, Madam Speaker . But I certainly don 't understand the conce rns of the Hous e Leader of the Opposition. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please . There seems to be some confusion.

All I have asked the Hon ourabl e Member from Thompson to do, specifically to the satisfaction of members opposite , is that any imputation that any members of the Oppo sition have been the ones interfering with his mail should be withdrawn . Whether the member has concerns or not about who in the world took his mail , I do not want any imput ation left that it was members of this Chamber. Could the Honourable Member for Thomps on please clarify it to that extent? MR. S. ASHTON: Madam Speaker, I'm not sure in this matter that I can say anything which would satisfy the Opposition.

Certain ly in my own sit uation I have not received satisfactory explanations in regard to the - (Interjection) - question of my mail .. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. MR. S. ASHTON: I did, Madam Speaker, withdraw the specific comments as outlined by the Government House Leader , the specific comments that you cited in the ruling .. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please . Order please. MR. S. ASHTON: . and I expect . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please , order please . I cannot hear the honourable member.

I am trying to have this matter resolved to the satisfaction of everyone in the Chamber . The matter is not debatable. I am only asking for clarification , and if the honourable members would give the floor to the Honourable Member for Thompson so we can clarify this once and for all, calmly, we would all appreciate it. The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J. COWAN: Madam Speaker , I believe from what I heard from the Member for Thompson that he did in fact fulfill the requests of your Speaker's Ruling.

I would suggest that perhaps ii there is some doubt as to whether or not that has been done to your satisfication that we take an opportunity to peruse Hansard when Hansard becomes available, and I think that from what I heard at least one would agree that he has very clearly, very clearly, separated his concerns about his mail from members opposite, and that in fact is what was requ ired SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 1027

Wednesday, 18 June, 1986 MADAM SPEAKER: Order. Order . HON. J. COWAN: ... and he has very clearly withdrawn language which you suggested in your ruling was not parliamentary. I believe those are the two requirements of the ruling and would hope that we would take the opportunity to review Hansard and in fact would find that that is the case. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Opposition House Leader . MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker , you have cle arly asked the Member for Thompson to withdraw the offen sive language against all members of this House . On four or five occas ions up until now he has refused to do so.

I suggest he be asked immediately to withdraw it or he be named. MADAM SPEAKER: We will not have any int erfere nce from members of the gallery. I distinctly heard th e Honourable Memb er for Thompson say that he withdrew the phrase which I cited. The concern seems to be on the addition at the end of his statement, that notwithstanding withdrawing that statement he still had some concerns about the interception of his mail. I want the Honourable Member for Thompson to make it very clear , once and for all, very brief ly to the House that any concerns he might have do not involve any members of this Chamber .

The Honourable Member for Thompson . MR. S. ASHTON : Madam Speaker , I find this incredibl e that I have to apologize when a piece of my mail ended up in the hands of the Leader of the Opposition . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh , oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. MR. S. ASHTON: Madam Speaker , I withdrew the statements that you cited as being unparliament ary. I went further and accepted the word of tho se who have indicated they were not involved with this particular matter, Madam Speaker , which I understand basic ally to be keeping in both the letter of your ruling and also the spirit of your ruling.

I cannot go further, Madam Speaker . MADAM SPEAKER: The honourabl e member has withdrawn the statements I requested in my ruling . He has not withdrawn the statements that I have since requested based on his apology , which I will ask him again to withdraw the statemen ts that he made tod ay suggesting that he still has concerns about mail interference from members of this Chamber . The Honourable Government House Leade r. HON. J. COWAN: Madam Speake r, with all respect , perhaps I could request a cla rification in respect to the ruling and the matters which have flowed fro m it.

My understanding of the ruling is that there was language not considered to be par liamentary that was used and that has been withdrawn .

The last line of your ruling says that you find the " Honourable Member for Thompson has contravened our Rule 41(1) by using offensive language against other members , and I must therefore ask him to withdraw the charges mad e." I bel ieve that he very clearly indicated tha t in keeping with the lett er of the ruling and the spirit of this Legislature that we must accept the word of each member of this Legislature that when they tell us a matter to be factual and truthful that it is factual and truthful.

He has ind icated that in keeping with the spirit of that tradition of this House and that requirement of this Hous e, he has withdrawn the charges against the members opp osite, which I believe in my opinion fulfills the ruling as laid out. To ask him to withdraw his con cerns about a matter which he believes, and has given evidence to the effe ct, hap pen ed is I think perhaps asking him to go a bit beyond what is required by the traditions of the House .

He has very clearly isolated his concern s from members opposite ; he has separated his concerns from members opposite; he has withdrawn any charges based on their assurances, which is in the trad ition and keeping of this Hous e and members opposite , and I b elieve for that reason has fulfilled the ruling as laid out and would hope that if there is any question further to this that we would all have an opportunity to peruse Hansard to determin e exactly what was said so that we can deal with this issue with some finality . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Opposition House Leader. MR. G.

MERCIER: Thank you, Madam Speaker . The Mem ber for Thompson clearly qual ified his withdrawal by referring only to those members who had spoken to him , and then further qualified his withdrawal at the end of his first set of remarks by still indicating his concern , which leads to, if not explicit, implic it innuendo about members, particularly on this side of the House. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader . 1028 HON. J. COWAN: Madam Speaker, I think the members of this Opposition are carryi ng this one step beyond what was required and anticipated in the Spea ker's Ruling.

The fact is that there was a letter and a memo , which was in the possession of the Leader of the Opposition , and that there are concerns about that. Those concerns are the . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please . We are not debating the ruling in any way, shape or form ; we are debating whether the apolog y o f the Honour able Member for Thompson has been sufficient. In fact, you are on a point of order giv ing me advice , not debating . The Honourable Government House Leade r on the point of order. HON. J. COWAN: Yes, thank you for that correction, Madam Speaker.

On the po int of order and in respect to the advice , I believe that , aga in, the req uirements which were set out in the Speak er's Ruling have been clearly met wit h

Wednesday, 18 June, 1986 by the Member for Thompson. The members opposite do not seem to accept that same opinion, or hold that same opinion. I would suggest that if we would have an opportunity to peruse Hansard, they would have the chance to read through the remarks specifically made by the Member for Thompson, and that is a normal course of action when we run into a situation such as this.

Then if they at that time believe that the remarks made by the Member for Thompson has not fulfilled the Speaker's Ruling - I believe it has very clearly - but if they believe it has not, they can bring it to the attention of the House; or you, yourself, Madam Speaker , can bring it to the attention of the House, and we will at that time have the opportunity to see the specific words in front of us and to judg e according ly. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Sturgeon Creek on the point of order. MR. F. JOHNSTON: On the point of ord er, Madam Speaker .

I was one of the members who has never spoken to the previous member and I want to make this brief and to your advice. You, Madam Speaker , have asked the member to qualify his accusations that he made, that they do not reflect on any member of this House. You have asked him that three times. I believe the member has the courtesy to the Chair, to either tell Madam Speaker that he does not have any accusations on any other member of this Hous e, Madam Speaker, or say that he has and then you will have to make your decision if he does not withdraw. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Mi nister on a point of order.

HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I think that insofar as your ruling was concerned, that the Honourable Member for Thompson has met the requirement by ind icating clearly in this Chamber - and that's su bject to your review of Hansard - that he is not sugge sting, not accusing any particular member of this House, any one of the 57 members of this House, of intercepting his mail. What did exist was an interce ption. There can be no argument about that, Madam Speaker . What is the matter, the subject of discussion, is whether or not the honourable member accused any membe r of this Chamber of in tercep tion.

The Hon ourable Member from Thompson ind icated that he accepted the word of honourable members, accepted their assurance that it was not a member of this Chamber that had unde rtaken the interception. So that, Madam Speaker, the Member for Thompson, in fact, has withdra wn the offensive language referred in your judgment. He cannot deny the fact that there was an interception. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, I want to tell the Premier that he has made a statement . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. You' re addressing the point of order. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, on the same point of order. The Premier has now raised a new issue. He has sugges ted that no one can deny there was an interception. I brought the issue here to the Legislature and it was a piece of information that happened to be in my mail - deliv ered in my mail. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, it may well have been that one of the Premier's staff ... SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order, order, please. Would the honourable member ple ase take his seat. We are discussing a point of order.

Now, I am satisfied that the Honourable Member for Thompson complied with my initial request by withdrawing the specific words that I quoted from Hansard, Page 918 . I am not satisfied, and I would hope that the honourable member would, very clearly , unequ ivocally and briefly state that any of his concerns about his mail interception do not relate to members of this Chamber, in that, he has withdrawn those words which say, "A member or members of the Opposition." The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. S.

ASTHON: Madame Speaker, I believe my intent was clear, was to withdraw the words which require that I withdraw and to respect your ruling. If that is your question, I certainly do that. MADAM SPEAKER: And the second part? MR. S. ASHTON: The remainder of my speech which dis cussed this item - of which I belie ve there was no citations on in terms of unparliam entary references - would still rem ain, I would un derstand from your direction. I would certainly accept, out of deference to yourself, as Speaker in this House, your ruling. MADAM SPEAKER: Is that a withdrawal? The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. S.

ASHTON: Madam Speaker, it seems we could go on indefinitely on this. I thought I said that out of respect to yourself and this House, that I accepted your ruling. MADAM SPEAKER: I am asking . . . MR. S. ASHTON: . . . which was the withdrawal of those statements which were conside red unparliamenta ry, which you cited specifically . MADAM SPEAKER: I want the Honourable Member for Thompson to withdraw the words he uttered today, saying that he still had concerns that members had in tercepted his mail. MR. S. ASHTON: On a point of order , Madam Speaker , I did not state that. 1029

Wednesday, 18 June, 1986 MADAM SPEAKER : Order please . I w ill ask one more time. The honourable member said he was sat isfied that the members who had spoken to him had not intercepted his mail. I want, from the honour able member, one last time, an assurance that he is not reflecting on any members of this House, as to their interference with his mail - any members of this House. The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. S.

ASHTON: Madam Speaker, I believe, and Hansard will show this , that in my comments, I said I still had a concern abo ut the interception of my mail, but I made no aspersions on any member of this House. Any statements which had indicated anything of that sort, which was cited specifically in your ruling , I withdrew . Madam Speaker, I can't go any further than that. I withdraw any unintended aspersions on members of this House, Madam Speakerf MADAM SPEAKER: Thank you . ORDERS OF THE DAY MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Governme nt House Leader . HON. J. COWAN: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

On Orders of the Day would you please call th e Debate on Second Reading for Bill No. 3; Bill No. 17; and then the Adjourned Debates on Second Reading for Bills 4 through 22, as shown on Pages 1 and 2 of the Orde r Paper in the order in which they are shown please? MADAM SPEAKER: Order please , order please. COMMITTEE CHANGES MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ellice. MR. H. SMITH: Changes on the Economic Development Committee . I'd like to amend the Committee. The Member for Rossmere in place of the Member for The Pas; the Member for Transcona in place of the Member for Lac du Bonnet.

MADAM SPEAKER: Thank you. The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J. COWAN: I'm sorry, Madam Speaker, I though t you were about to call the bills as suggested. I'll awai t that calling . MADAM SPEAKER: I wonder if the Honourable Government House Leader could repeat that order once more. HON. J. COWAN: Thank you , Madam Speaker. Could you please call Second Reading of Bill No. 3 followed by Bill No. 17, then the Adjourned Debate on Bills 4, 9, 11, 18 and 22 in the order in which they appear on the Order Paper? MADAM SPEAKER: Second Reading on Bill No. 2. The Honourable Minister of Co-op Development. HON. J.

COWAN: Bill No. 3, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: No. 3, sorry. 1030 SECOND READING · BILL 3 - THE CREDIT UNIONS AND CAISSES POPULAIRES ACT;

LOI SUR LES CAISSES POPULAIRES ET LES CREDIT UNIONS HON. J. COWAN presented, by leave, Bill No. 3, The Credit Unions and Caisses Populaires Act;

Loi sur les caisses popula ires et les credit unions, for Second Reading . MOTION presented. HON. J. COWAN: Bill No. 3, The Credit Unions and Caisses Populaires Act represents three years of both extensive and intensive consultation with the credit unions and the caisses popul aire systems and hundreds of representatives and members of Manitoba 's financial coope rativ e sector. In effect, it is a comprehensive rewriting of th e existin g Credit Union and Caisses Populaire Act.

The over all intent of the legislation is to provide a modern and progressive legislative framework and regulatory environment in which Manitoba's credit union s and cai sses populaires can provid e financia l servi ces to the ir 330 ,000 member owners and gro w and expand as a system , as required. Manitoba 's 96 credit unions and 23 caisses populaires strengthen the fin anci al fabric of dozens of cities , towns and communi ties th rou ghout the province through democratically -c o ntr ol led financial ins t itutions.

Hundreds of thou sands of Manitobans and their families have collectivel y deposited nearly $2 billion in their own credit union or caisses popula ires. (Mr. Deputy Speaker, C. Santos, in the Chair.) Those financial institutions have served Manitobans well for generations now , as the system is about to celebrate its 50th anniversary. Over those 50 years, it has earned the trust and confidence of those it serves. It has grown from a small caisse populaire in St . Malo , the first in the provinc e, which opened in February 1937 with 12 members and deposits of $61 .35 to the comprehensive system it is today .

For example, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the St. Malo Caisse Populaire, from those early days of 12 memb ers and $61.35 in deposits , has grown to where it now has 1,386 members and assets of $8.1 million, and that type of growth is increasing all throughout the system. Last year, assets in Manitoba's credit unions grew by over 13 percent , while assets in the caisse populaire system grew by 16 percent. I believe this indicat es a very healthy state for our financial cooperative sector in Manitoba. That growth is illustrative of Manito ban s' fate and conf idence in their financial cooperatives.

That confidence and faith has proven to be well placed . Credit unions, caisses populaires and the system in which they operate have provided reliable financial services and helped to strengthen our provin cial fiscal community. Thousands of volunteers in leadership roles and staff that support them operate an efficient and effective fiscal system . They protect the investment of the membership, through dedication to their responsibilities and commitment to cooperative principles. Those directors and officers of those credit unions, and caisses populaires as the central organizations,

Wednesday, 18 June, 1986 the stabili zation funds, all operate within a legisla tive and regula tory framework. This legislation that we have before us today is designed to meet several general objectiv es. First ly, it sets out the

definitions of the individual components of the system, which, when taken together, provide a comprehensive picture of the entire system and the legis lated relationships of its different parts. Further to those basic

definitions, the legislation identifies the fundamental functions and responsibilities of the different partners within the system. lt must clearly identify the roles that they are expected to play, if we are to have responsibility well suited to the task which those members must undertake. In effect, this legislation un dertakes to do that. lt also provides adequate checks and balances in order to ensure that the interests of all the participants, but most importantly, the interests of the membership and the depositors are protected.

Legislation such as this encou rages the development of sound, flexible, consistent and progressive operating procedures within the entire sys tem. This includes provision for appropria te financial procedur es and reporting mechanisms throughout the entire sys tem. These procedures and reporting systems are essential in order to ensure the protection of the members within the overall system.

The legislation and the reg ula tions reflects the unique ness of these financial organizations which are in fact operated on a cooperative basis, but at the same time, compete with other financial institutions in an inc rea singly comp lex and com petitive fiscal environment. The legislation defines the basic parameters that allows the credit unions and the caisses popul aires to operate in that cooperative fashion and meet the needs of their membership.

This legislation seeks to address the new needs of the entire system that have arisen since the last major revisions to legislation governing credit unions and caisses populaires were made in 1979. The legislation has been developed through extensive and intensive discussions and consultation between the credit union and caisse-popu laire system and the government.

Sinc e 19 83, repres entativ es of the following organizations: the Credit Union Central, La Federation de Caisses Populaires, la Fonds de Securite, the Stabil ization Fund, and the Government - have been meeting as a Law Review Committee which was expressly constituted to examine the present legislation; throughout that examination, identify key issues and recommend possible changes so that the legislation may be brought up to date with cu rrent needs and demands.

I think it's appropriate to take this occasion to personally thank that committee, their su pport staff and departmental officials for their dedica tion and commitment to that task. I belie ve, and I believe that members of the credit union and caisse populaire system, as well as members opposite, will accept that they have fulfilled their mandate extremely well, once they have had an opportunity to review the completed legislation.

Fol lowing the committee's initial work, the government circulated a discussion paper to interested parties within the credit union and caisse-populaire system to members of the Legislative Assembly and to other interested indi viduals. This paper contained 1031 a govern ment review of the key issues and was distributed in July of 1984. Following the distribution of that paper, a series of regional meetings were held by the system itself and others in a number of communities with presidents and managers of indi vidua l credit un ions and caisses populaires.

These meetings provided an opportunity for further consultation on many specific issues. As a result of that dialogue and numerous other discussions that were ongoing at the same time, several more key issues and rec ommendations were ide ntified as requiring further refinement and adjustments. At that time a series of internal discussions resulted in the Law Review Committee commencing its work again early in 1985. Their work at that time resulted in dr aft legislation which was tabled in this Legislature on July 11 , 1985.

That draft was also circula ted to key leadership and interested memberships within the credit union and caisse-populaire system. Again it was dis cussed at a number of meetings and at the Credit Union Central and the Federation de Caisse Populaire level. As well, tens of thousands of individual members were informed of the proposed legislation through circul ars and meetings. Since that draft legislation has been circulated, con tinuing consulta tion at the grassroots level and discussions with the Law Review Committee have resulted in further refinement of the bill.

I believe that it now represents the best possible consensus on many comple x and compl icated legisl ative and system issues. Some of the more signi ficant changes proposed in the new bill include the following legislative and regulatory provisions. The private acts concerning the Credit Union Central and the Federation de Caisse Populaire is to be repealed and the centrals will be included in the new act Only investments in the centrals and the funds will qualify for liquidity purposes.

The centrals and credit unions and caisses popul aires will be permitted to designate associate membership criteria within certain parameters. The numbers of centrals will be limited and membership in them would be compuls ory for credit unions and caisses popula ires. Credit unio ns and caisses popula ires would be allo wed to issue shares for the purpose of raising capital at the local level.

The stabili zation fund will be able to sell debentur es within the system for the purpose of raising capital at that leveL Distribution of surplus and patronage dividends will be limited with prescri bed reserve levels and limited to the extent until those particular levels are reached. There will be limited proxy voting allowed at meetings under certain circums tances. Disclosure provisions for dir ectors and officers regarding confl ict-of-interest situations will be clarified and strengthened. Members at their meetings will be allowed to appoint their own auditors.

These changes, as outlined above, and other revisions to the existing legislation are designed to enhance the operations and viability of the credit union and caisse populaire movement, while at the same time maintaining the necessary degr ee of accountability for deposit taking financial institutions. I would suggest that they represent a fair consensus that can only come about through a wil lin gness by all

Wednesday, 18 June, 1986 parties for progressive and positive change and can only be developed through the type of extensive and intensive consultation and dialogue at all levels within the system , that has been undertaken around the development of this legislation for the last few years . There will be opportunity, Mr. Deputy Speaker , to review the legislation in detail during the debate in the committee stage of its review.

I am forwarding to the Opposition critic at this point in time a side-by-side comparison of the proposed and existing credit union, caisse popula ire legislation which , I hope , identifies some of the key issues. I will look forward to his comments and the comments of his colleagues when they have had an opportunity to review it. It is a fairly lengthy bill encompassing some 144 pages and over 200 specific clauses, so I expect that they will have questions on specific issues as we undertake the full discussion of this particular bill.

As always, we respect their opinions and appreciate their comments and the ir suggestions and their criticisms . I know they share with members of the government a sincere desire to shape the best possible legislation to enable credit unions and caisses populaires and the stabi lization funds and the central organizations to not only grow but to flourish within our province, because those credit unions and caisses populaires provide so many important and necessary services to hundreds of thousands of Manitobans and their families . In closing, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, just last week I had the opportunity to present first prize in the cooperative promotion board 's "Cooperatives in our Community Essay Contest ." The winning essay entitled " Carpathia Credit Union" focussed on that credit union and its growth from its establishment in 1940 with a collection of $92.50 to a major financial institution, such as it is today , with 8,000 members and assets of over $50 million . I'd like to read just a bit of the essay by Mr.

Peter Doberoski of Miles Macdonell Colleg iate in Winnipeg , because I believe it reflects the essence of Manitoba 's credit union and caisse populaire system . In writing about the history and the development of the Carpathia Credit Union , he outlined that it has been an integral part of the North End Winnipeg community for 46 years.

Credit unions and caisses populai res are, in fact , an integral part as I had mentioned earlier of dozens of communities whether they be communities within an urban environment, such as neighbourhoods or communities; in a rural environmen t such as small towns and villages, such as I indicated with the St. Malo Caisse Populaire earlier on . But he's talking to one of the clientele, one of the member-owners of the Carpthia Credit Union and asking him why it is he belongs to that parti cular institution rather than another financial institution .

That individual outlined in the essay says , and I quote, "The credit union is willing to sit down and assist a member with resolving a financial problem since the member is a co-owner of the institution ." That, in effect , is the essence of our credit union system.

That, in effect, is the goal and the objective of this legislation to enable credit unions and caisses populai res to operate within a legislative environment that allows them to sit down and discuss with their member-owners the financial needs, the financial programs, the financial policies that they believe are in the best interests of their own membership . 1032 With that sort of grassroots control , with that sort of democratic operation , we know that those financial institutions, because those member-owners represent the fabric of this province , will indeed reflect the needs, the aspirat ions and the values of Manitoba .

This legislation enables them to conduct those affairs in such a way as to flourish in today's complex and complicated financial institutio n and to build upon the very substantial growth and health that they have experienced over the past few years . MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Member for Niakwa . MR. A. KOVNATS: Yes, just one question, not for clarification, but does the Honourable Minister have an extra copy for the deputy critic? HON. J. COWAN: I can make an extra copy available as requested. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Member for La Verendrye. MR. H. PANKRATZ: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I'd like to move, seconded by the Member for River East, that we adjourn debate. MOTION presented and carried . SECOND READING BILL NO. 17 - THE TAXICAB ACT; LA

LOI SUR LES TAXIS HON. J. PLOHMAN presented , by leave, Bill No. 17,

An Act to amend The Taxicab Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les ta xis, for Second Reading. MOTION presented. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, you have a copy of a portio n of my remarks for the Opposition critic. I guess I'll have to use the copier, the Opposition Hou se Leader has asked for the Deputy Critic . Mr. Deputy Speaker , the amendments for The Taxicab Act will allow the taxicab board to set fees for licences for taxi drivers and businesses by regulation . Presently the se fees and licences are prescribed in the act. The taxicab board is operating with a fee structure at the present time that was put in place in 1935.

Ther e have been many changes needless to say and I don't have to remind members in this House , that there have been many changes to the taxicab industry over that period of time . Admin istrative costs have obviously escalated since the days of the Depression in 1935 when these fees were set in the act , and in recog nizing chang ing times and changing costs we have moved to implement amendments to The Taxicab Act that will govern the fee structure . I think they are long overdue and I think most people would agree with that.

Inspection costs and administrat ive costs have esca lated to the total budget now for the taxicab board is $127,000 per year. This pays for the staff , 2 inspectors , 1 secretary, 1 administrative secretary, plus three board members and also covers operating costs for office supplies , telephone , advertising and so on.

Wednesday, 18 June, 1986 Inspections are carried out by these two inspectors; insp ectors patrol the streets of the City of Winnipeg; they check cars for vehicle cleanliness and that has been an issue that has been raised recently about the cleanliness of cabs in the City of Winnipeg, so we need to have those inspectors there. They also check for body damages, proper registrat ion, mandatory taxicab board seals on meters, mandatory licences, and mandatory information stickers on wind ows. As well, photo equipment was purchased last June at a cost of $3,000.00.

This enables the taxicab board to provide the service of photo identification for taxicab driver licences. Previously , the taxicab provided a paper licence which was folded and placed in the wallet of the taxicab dr iver. Insofar as the other matters that the Taxicab Board is concerned with insofar as developments in the past year, stickers have been also required to indi cate to passengers that, if a taxicab meter is not on, there is no charge for the ride.

As well, passengers wishing to make comments to the Taxicab Board are instructed to note the driver's photo identification number which should be visible at all times. Services provided by the Taxicab Board naturally represent administrative costs, as I've mentioned, and amendments to The Taxicab Act will give the board the flexibility in regulating fees for services provided to cover these adminis trative costs. Total reven ue of the Taxicab Board under these 19 35 provisions is a mere $2,306 at the present time with expenditur es, as I indicated, of 12 7,000.00.

These changes will recognize the costs of providing various services and will move towards a break-even point, but certainly will not realize that initially insofar as the board is concerned, but it will allow some more realistic assessment of fees. The fees will reflect somewhat the current costs and will still be well below those charged in other jurisdictions across the cou ntry. For example, the fee comparisons for taxicab driver licences, in Manitoba, the present fee is $1, as set in 1935. Calgary's present fee is $45; Toro nto's present fee is $32.00.

So you can see the difference, and the Manitoba fee as proposed would be $10 , so it would be far less than in other jurisdictions, at $10 .00. - (Interjection) - Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Member for Lakeside says that this is a 1, 000 percent increase. I should point out that the previous administrations have obviously been negligent in not addressing this issue over the last 51 years. So I think there's something that the member can reflect upon, having been in government on a number of occasions in the past. Mr. Deputy Speaker , the current fees range from $1 to $3 totally, each individual fee.

Taxicab driver licence is $1; taxicab business licence, $1; limousine business licence, $1; seasonal taxi busi ness licence, $2; U-drive business licence, $1; licence for each U-drive vehicle, $2; and transfer or replacement fee, $3.00. Those fees have been in place all of the 51 years. What we are simply going to do here under these amendments, Mr. Deputy Speaker , is provide for regulatory adjustments to those fees, as required in future years. Thank you, Mr . Deputy Speaker.

I just want to add as well that I think these amendments will provide the flexibility that is necessary on the part of the Taxicab Board to provide regulations and services to the taxicab ind ustry and services and standards that the public expect. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr . Deputy Speaker , just a qu estion for clarification.

Is the Min ister indi cating to the House that in this bill at this particular time when taxicab drivers are facing unpr ecedented demand for safety improvements to their vehicles in terms of plexigla ss or other measures that have been outlined recently which will be at sign ificant cost to them, that at this very time the Minister is proposing to pass legislation which will further incr ease the costs of operation of operating a taxi upon the individual taxi owners and then eventually, through them, to the consumer when we already have higher than average taxi fare rates? MR.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Mi ni ster ol Transportation. HON. J. PLOHMAN: The member may want to reflect on his statement that the rates are higher than average and give some examples, and we may have an opportunity to discuss that further during the debate. I'm not certain that I accept the premise of the Member for St. Norb ert that the taxicab indus try is facing unpr ecedented costs. There are discussions currently taking place with Workpla ce, Health and Safety on some changes that will address safety concerns. lt hasn't been determined how those will be paid for and the nature of those costs.

So I think it's premature to say that they are facing un precedented costs. Perhaps in terms of their overall costs of supplying the vehicle, they may be conside red minor additional costs. But the fact is that there will be an adjustment in the fee structure which is totally out of line, and I don't think that any member on this side of the House or the other side of the House could say that fees set 51 years ago in any way reflect the current costs of providing regulation and service to the public, related to the taxicab ind ustry. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Member for Min nedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Rhineland, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Mini ster of Education. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I think that concludes the Second Readings. I therefore move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Workpla ce Safety and Health, that Mr . Deputy Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: May I make a committee change, Mr . Deputy Speaker? 1033

Wednesday, 18 June, 1986 MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, the member may do so. COMMITTEE CHANGES MR. A. KOVNATS: On Economic Development, the Honourable Member for Arthur to be replaced by the Honourable Member for Gladstone. MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itse lf into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Agriculture; and the Honourable Member for Kildonan in the Chair for the Department of Highways and Transportation, and the Department of Community Services .

CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - HIGHWAYS AND TRANSPORTATION MR. CHAIRMAN, M. Dolin: Item 1.(a), Minister 's Salary-pass . Resolution 90: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $3,261 ,000 for Highways and Transportation, Administration and Finance, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March , 1987-pass. Committee rise . SUPPLY - COMMUNITY SERVICES MR. CHAIRMAN, M. Dolin: We will now proceed to the Estimates of the Department of Community Services. We are on Page 31, Department of Community Services , dealing with Resolution 29, Administration and Finance .

Deferring 1.(a), Minister 's Salary, we will begin with 1.(b), Executive Support . Prior to that , the Minister has an opening statement . The Honourable Minister. HON. M. SMITH: Thank you , Mr. Cha irperson . I am pleased to introduce the 1986-87 Estimates of Manitoba Community Services , and, in so doing , to outline briefly the highlights and directions of my department's activities for the current fiscal year. My department is proposing expenditures of $182.8 million or 11.6 percent more than in 1985-86. This reflects the government's continuing commitment to a strong network of social services.

Our stress on services to people is based on a partnersh ip with the community that uses and supports those services. This partnership also extends to the wide range of external organizations that operate social services within our fields of responsibility . My department's budget increases are based on the social vision and outlook of the government . Within this framework, we are operating with three major areas of direction for services and programs. One is improving the quality of life for Manitobans.

This will be seen in increased appropriations for developmentally disabled persons living in the Manitoba Developmental Centre or in the community, in funds earmarked for day care , and in continued emphasis on community participation in the justice system. Second is reform, the continual adjustment and evaluation of ex isting services where needed . Not eworthy examples are the Welcome Home Program, the considered development of wife abuse services and child ren's special services. The third is access. This means making services more accessible to Manito bans and more responsive to need in the community.

Our reorganization of Child and Family Services, the support services in Welcom e Home developed throu gh government and community partnership and the counselling and referral services at the Public Safety Building for abused women are outstanding examples of improving access to social services at point of need. At this po int, I should like to review our funding commitments and briefly describe a few programs that illustrate these dire ctions. Child and Family Service agencies will receive grant increases totalling more than $3.5 million or 12.1 percent over last year.

The higher grants reflect a number of things, increased support for child abuse prevention; support to Native agencies for care given to children who are a provincial responsibility; greater agency work loads identifi ed in the new Winnipeg agencies because of greater access to services; more suppo rt and preventive services to families . Further, we have allowed for a 12.8 percent increase in spendin g on family services, such as paren t aides and homemakers and on specialized child care staff , all of which help families in the community and help reduce the risk of family breakup.

There are also more funds for agency foster care services which are up 10.9 percent over last year. Some of these funds will consist of support for children with special needs so that they may be cared for in foster homes instead of in institutional settings. In Child and Family Support, we are completing the work arising from the reorganization of Child and Family Services. We are also moving forward to anticipate the demands for services, including child abuse prevention resulting from the operation of the system under the new Child and Family Services Act.

Members will recall the act's emphasis on finding perm anent homes for children in agency care , and the requir eme nt for annual review of permanency planning for all children in care. Consequently , we have added provision for more staff in Child and Family Support. They will handle work concerning permanency planning and co unselling relating to the more active post adoption registry introduced in the legislation and to confidentiality and access to records. In Child Day Care, allocations for subsidies to parents and grants to day care centres are up 13.6 percent over last year.

In Family Violence Services, 1986-87 will be the first full fiscal year for the enhancement programs that were announced last fall. A major portion of the enhancement funds has been used to establish new programs . These include the Domestic Counselling Program for battered wom en and abusers at Klinic, funds to support a family violence coordinator at Ma Mawi-Wi-Chi-l tata Centre, who will work with Natives in Winnipeg, and the Women in Seco nd-Stage Housing Program . We have also earmarked funds for the Wife Abuse Unit at the Publi c Safety Building in Winnipeg .

My department is maintaining its financial commitment to support existing Non-residential 1034

Wednesday, 18 June, 1986 Women's Crisis Services throughout the province. From all these efforts, we expect a better range of family violence services and better service access for battered women and their children. Among the more positive and wide-ranging series of programs my department has undertaken in recent years are the Wel come Home and related initiatives for developmentally di sabled persons.

As honourable members know, Welcome Home, initiated in the spring of 19 84 will see the transfer of about 220 residents at the Manitoba Developmental Centre to the community by 19 87. lt also consists of services in the community for mentally hand icapped persons at risk to ensure that they will be able to remain in the community. One of the major achievements of Welcome Home has been the planning and development of the services needed to support mentally hand icapped persons in the community.

This has been accomplished through the work and dedication of community and regional planning and implementation teams which consist of both government and community members. Our commitment to these services is shown in major incr eases in funds for commu ni ty pl acement of institutional residents and for associated services. These services include incr eases in per di em rates for community residences and occupational activity centres and increases for day programs. The programs serve both Welcome Ho me participants and developmentally di sab led persons alr eady in the communi ty.

For instance, funds earmarked for community residences for developmentally di sable d persons have been increased 41 percent over 19 85-86 to accommodate persons pla ced through Welcome Home. Through Welcome Home, we are developing a service network for mentally handicapped persons which recognizes that they are a part of the community. Mr. Chairman, we will continue to fulfill our commitment to a better quality of life for residents of MDC. One aspect of that commitment is a major project at the institution, the new physical activities building, for which we expect construction to begin shortly .

This project will add new physical education and recreat ion facilities and consolidate vocational training facilities under one roof. Completion will be a major step forward in facilities at MD C. In Corrections, we are continuing our emphasis on community-based options to incarceration, and our policy of making the jus tice system responsive to the views and standards of Manitoba communities.

As an example, we are building up the Working Together Program under which communities, through Community Ju stice Committees, will have a role in finding alternatives to sentences that will benefit communities and give them a sense of partnership in the Manitoba justice system. I should also like to draw honourable members' attention to the Fine Option Program which is working very well as an alternative to incarceration for non payment of fines for minor offences.

Under Fine Option, offenders un dertake a variety of assignments made by community committees, working off their fines at rates approximating the minimum wage. There was an 11 .9 percent incr ease last year in the numb ers of people registered in Fine Option and the hours of work completed in lieu of fines went up by 11 .3 percent. In a related community-based program, Community Service Orders, participation has increased 30 percent in the past six months. This program giv es offenders the opportunity to redress offences through community work instead of serving a term in jail. Mr .

Chairp ers on, these programs reflect our commitment to a comprehensive network of social services, our willi ngness to exercise leadership and our interest in working with Manitobans to adjust and improve services and programs. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Madam Minis ter. If the staff would come forward. Oh, I'm sorry, just hold it for a sec ond. The Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I thank the Minister for her opening statement.

Unfortunately again she sees her department in a somewhat different light than what I do, but as we go along and examine the expenditures of the department, hopefully we'll be able to get some of these things ironed out. We intend to examine this department carefu lly because of the many problems that we and the Opposition and members of the press have found in every area of the Minister's department. The Mini ster has been fortunate in receiving more money for this department because other departments have not received that same type of considerat ion.

For instance, the Department of Hig hways actually received less money than last year, and we sincerely hope that this new-found money in this department will go towards services for childr en and not be eaten up by administration. We welcomed the Minis ter's announcement the other day, in which she declared extra funding for 440 day care spaces, but we must question why this extra funding is only designated towards government-run and non-profit day care centres?

Should not service for children have top priority and political hang-ups about private day care, which also provides much needed space, take a secondary role? I do not think that any private day care centre can make a lot of money. At best, a half decent salary is all that these people can expect that are running private day care centres. These pr ivate day care centres, they have to be licensed, they have to adhere to the same standards as all the other day care centres, and I really cannot see where the Minister thinks that huge profits can be made by private lic ensed day care centres.

I think the concern we must have is that there are still some 3,000 children in Winnipeg who are seeking day care space. So one must wonder where the hang up is about private day care, because certainly they have a role to play and a role to fulfil! in our entire del ivery system towards children. The Min ister has implemented a new program such as the Welcome Home Program and it still is too early to evaluate this program because to date, not too many persons have benefited from this program. We will, however, watch this program with great interest.

The closure of the Psychiatric Nursing School in Portage still smacks only as a political move and not a move of sound judgment. I am sure we will spend some time on that issue. In Corrections, the Min ister started a fine option program, and I und erstand that this program is not 1035

Wednesday, 18 June, 1986 operating too well. I must be talking to different people than what the Minister is talking to because , from what I understand, the police are con ti nuously arresting and rearresting sentenced people who are in default of their fine option payments. This, of course , is of great concern and it gets to be a very expensive option when the police have to go chasing all over the country trying to find these sentenced people who are not living up to their commitments .

Racial tension and lack of disciplinary action at Headingley are also areas of great concern , especially for the people involved at Headingley . The Minister has failed to provide adequate service for children suffering from child abuse. There is an absolute lack of responsibility when a case of child abuse is brought to the department's attention and no action is taken . Later on, this child dies because of sexual abuse. Mr. Chairman, that is deplorable . How many other cases are there?

A report in the Free Press stated that child abuse has reached a critical proportion in the core area of the city and that emergency shelters were required. Has the Minister responded to this situation? Wife abuse, another area in which the Minister takes great pride in setting up a program to help identify cases of wife abuse , but little or no follow-up is done in these reported cases . There is a lack of funding to carry out a proper program. Shelters seldom know whether they will receive funding to allow them to provide the services required .

The largest abrogation of responsibility, however , incurs in the area of breakdown of child relationship with family. This can be caused when a child becomes involved with drugs, steals, or absolutely makes livin g together with the family impossible. Child and Family Services receive temporary custody with the hope that the child will receive the necessary counselling and return home to the family . Counselling services are not available . A case that ought to take no longer than three weeks takes forever because of lack of discipline , lack of counselling and, in general, lack of caring for the child .

Children are shunted from foster home or group home to group home. They do not have to attend school. They can stay out as late as they want at night and they can sleep in as late as they want in the morning . There is no discipline whatsoever . These children receive clothing , spending money, and are given the opportunity to earn extra money , but no or very little counselling so that families could be reunited . This, Mr. Chairman , is why caseloads are growing at alarming rates because cases are not resolved . The Minister does not have the teams of experts that used to be able to cope with these situations .

This is an area, Mr. Chairman, where thousands upon thousands of dollars are wasted. The whole area of Family Services needs to be examined , and I welcome my colleagues who will participate because I know that they have a keen interest in this department. Mr. Chairman, I look forward to the examination of these Estimates . MR. CHAIRMAN: With apologies from the Chair, I believe the staff can now come forward. We are dealing with Item 1.(b), Executive Support - the Member for Rhineland . MR. A. BROWN: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could give us a chart outlining the structure of her department , along with the names of the various people who are heads of the various departments . HON. M. SMITH: Yes, that will be made available shortly. I'd just like to introduce my staff who are present here: Michael Mend elson , the Deputy Minister; Ken Gray, the Executive Director of Administrative Services; and Jim Bateman , who is staff in that directorship. MR. A.

BROWN: While her staff is look ing for these charts which, hopefully , we will be getting , maybe the Minister can expla in just exactly what the Executive Support, what their function is. HON. M. SMITH: There are eight staff in the Executive Support group providing for the operation of the offices of the Minister and the Deputy Minister. Do you want the detail on the number of staff , or would you like that just distributed to you? MR. A. BROWN: It would be helpful. HON. M. SMITH: It 's unchanged from last year. MR. A. BROWN: It would be helpful if we could have the detail s.

I don't have last year 's numbers with me. HON. M. SMITH: In the Minister 's office there are five people , one special assistant, one executive assistant and three administrative support staff. In the Deput y Minister 's office , there is one deputy , one administrat ive assistant and one administrative support staff_ MR. A. BROWN: I notic e, Mr. Chairman , that there has not been too much of a change in the overall funding in this particular area , but when we do take a look back, going back to the 1985 Salaries, I notice that there was $266,200 being spent in (b)(1), Salaries. We are now spending $249,800.00.

I wond er if the Minister can explain. Is there less staff out there now, or what has happened? HON. M. SMITH: I think you 're working from a . MR. CHAIRMAN: That's not the correct figure . HON. M. SMITH: Not from the adjusted vote. You may have the previous year. MR. A. BROWN: I'm working from the Estimat es here , comparing 1985 to 1986 and 1987. MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, just to clarify for the honourable member, the figures I have here are 235,200 in salaries , 249 ,800.00 . MR. A. BROWN: 1984-85, we're going back further than that. MR. CHAIRMAN: Oh, I see. HON. M. SMITH: That was answered last year . 1036

Wednesday, 18 June, 1986 MR. A. BROWN: I don't believe it was. HON. M. SMITH: I guess you had your opportunity to ask that question last year. MR. A. BROWN: Because I am going to be making considerable comparisons just in order for us to see where this particular department is going over more than just a one-year period. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rhineland, would you like to repeat the question? MR. A. BROWN: So, I'm wondering, what has happened to staff? Has there been a decrease, or what has happened? HON. M. SMITH: We would have to dou ble-check.

But to our knowledge, it doesn't represent any different numbers; just any differences, it would be the length of time that people have been on staff and their salary level. MR. A. BROWN: But there has been a su bstantial decrease. If there would have been an incr ease, I could understand incr ease in salaries. But there has been from 266,200 that we now are up to 249,800 under it. I'm sure that the Deputy Mini ster has not received a drop in sal ary. I'm sure that he has received his increase along with everybody else. So I would like to know, what happened? HON. M.

SMITH: Well, we'd have to look for the detail, but certainly at least over one-third of that would be accounted for by the shift from a deputy who was at the top of the range to one that was coming in. That accounts for the reduction. Now the increase this year over last year is as people move up the salary ranges year by year. But you're asking for a change two years back, a significant reduction, and that would be certainly almost half because of the shift in deputies. We'll get that information for you and make it available at a later sitting. MR. CHA IRMAN: The Member for River Heights. MRS. S.

CARSTAIRS: Can the Minister distinguish between the functions of a special assistant and the executive assistant? HON. M. SMITH: Yes, in general, the special assistant is a su pport for the Mini ster on issues relating to the department and the executive assistant relates mainly to the constituency. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: The salaries have increased , but I would agree in proportion to the general overall increases required. But the other expenditures have not deviated at all. Is there any particular explanation for that? HON. M. SMITH: it's the result of an effort on our part to run a very tight ship at this level.

MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Beyond the norma l office expenditur es, is there any large lump sum in that Other Expen ditur es? HON. M. SMITH: I'll just read you the components of it that make up the 63,800: 5,000 in grants; 4,000 in transportation; 14,0 00 in aircra ft transpor tation; telephone communications 10 ,000; office supplies 1, 600; publ ications 1; and other 13 .8. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: The Minis ter is using books which I have actually in fact received with great pleasure from the Min ister of Education who is here.

When does the Mini ster of Community Services anticipate that kind of detailed estimate would be provided to the members? HON. M. SMITH: The departments are on a phase basis for the preparation of suppleme ntary detail and we're scheduled to be included in next year's Estimates. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (b)(1) -p ass. The Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: I would like to go to that top figure over there of 3,266,700; and, again, there was not too much of a change from the previous year, 3, 12 9,900.

But, if we go back one year to the 19 85, then we're at $2,496,800, and that is why I am going back two years in order to find out what is happening with this department. Now that is an $800,000 incr ease in administration. I would like to have the Minister explain what is happening in this particular department. Where are we spending that extra money? HON. M. SMITH: Well, again, I think the member will likely find the key explanations for changes in the previous year's Hansard.

As I recall the development in the depar tment, we did build up our research and planning capacity because we are delivering complex programs and quite a high budget. lt was our belief that we needed good research and good pl anning to manage that expen ditur e effectively. MR. A. BROWN: That accounts for about $200,000.00. Where did the rest of the $600,000 stay? HON. M. SMITH: I think I really would have to refer the member to last year's Hansard because that's when the year-over-year changes occurred. I'm prepared to giv e detail on the changes in this past year to supplement what was asked last year. MR. A.

BROWN: As I ind icated earlier , it is necessary for us to go back to that particular period of time because there have been so many changes made, and in order for us to do a proper comparison we will have to go back over a period of two to three years in order to get a true picture of really where we are going in this particular department.

So I would appreciate it if her staff could have that information here with them, if they could have their Estimates of Expenditure here, so that we could have meaningful discussion on where this department is going and where we are spending these extra monies, because there certainly is a huge in crease of monies being spent in this particular department and we would like to know whether we're getting, quite frankly, our money's worth, whether we're getting value for the dollar spent. 1037

Wednesday, 18 June, 1986 HON. M. SMITH: I understand that the Estimates discussion this year is to give the current year 's budget and relate it to last year 's. We can bring along the books from the previous year but it seems to me we'll on ly be duplicating the very questions that were asked last year. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman , the Minister indicated that Executive Support includes eight persons: one special assistant, one executive assistant , I think it's three administrative secretaries , one Deputy Minister , an administrative assistance and another administrative secretary . Could she indicate where the Assistant Deputy Ministers are located? I thought they would be inc luded in this. HON. M. SMITH: They will show up in each branch . For example, the Community Social Services, Item 3, is where Joe Gels , the Assistant Deputy Minister , will be located.

Item 4, Child and Family Services, is where Aleda Turnbull , the Assistant Deputy Minister , will be found. Item 5, Corrections, is where John Bock , the Assistant Deputy Ministers for Corrections will be found. Our Administration and Finance is operated by an Executive Director, Ken Gray, and that will appear unde r 1.(e). MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(bX1)-pass. 1.(bX2) - the Member for Rhineland . MR. A. BROWN: Can the Minister give us a list of the Other Expenditures? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister just did that in response to a question from the Member for River Heights. MR. A. BROWN: Okay. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 1.(bX2)-pass . 1.(cX1) Research and Planning: Salaries - the Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Mr. Chairman, we are spending additional money in this particular department , in Research and Planning . I wonder if the Minister can give us a lowdown of just exactly the type of research and the type of planning that is going on within this expenditure . HON. M. SMITH: Basically , it's a support to the plannin g that the Deputy Minister chairs.

There's an executive management committee and it plans , coordinates and monitors the department's annual and multi -year planning cycles and any particular planning proc ess. There's policy analysis and research that is used to identify critical or emerging policy issues, to formulate and implement policies and prepare related documents. There's also a liaison function with othe r government agencies .

The branch will coordinate or prepare mater ial for the Social Resources Comm ittee of Cabinet, deal with other government Research and Planning Branche s where interdepartm ental issues are involved, and ensure that we have a consistent and orderly relationship with the Federal Government on many items that affect our department. They often will represent our department on federal-provinci al, or interprovincial committees of officials. We have added some new responsibility areas .

They have taken a more active role in reviewi ng the federal provincial cost-sharing arra ngements related to the Canada Assistance Plan , The Vocational Rehabilitation of Disabled Persons Act , and the Young Offenders Cost Sharing Agr eement. They'r e our basic cost-sharing instruments. They have also taken a more acti ve role in coordinating policy development with Native peop le, and services in relation to them . There is also a chang e to the program base in th at we have hired a coordinator for the Decade of the Disabled .

This person has been hired on a one-year term basi s to assist all government departments to develop plans for the Decade of the Disabled , to bette r meet the needs of this target group . That accounts for a $63 ,000 increas e to the base . That would be salary and operating . Currently they 're working on renegotiating VRDP, and negotiation to extend the tripartite Indian Child Welfare Agreements. VRDP was what I referred to earl ier, Vocational Rehabilitation of Disabled Pers ons Act. MR. A.

BROWN: In 1986, the expenditures show that , for salaries, we were going to be spending $505 ,200, yet in this appropriation this year, it shows that as $582,400 .00. I wonder if the Minister can explain why we have tha t difference, from what was proposed and what was actually spent. HON. M. SMITH: During the year, there was a transfe r of two staff, one from the Child and Family area, and one from Youth Corrections . Then in this year 's budget , there has been the coo rdinator for the Decade of the Disabled, and then a minor amount for general salary increase. MR. A.

BROWN: How many S MY 's do we have additional now? We have the two th at the Minis ter mentioned and? HON. M. SMITH: The first two I mentioned would show up in an adjusted vote. That's a reconciliation from the print of last year to the print of this year. We started then - the reconciled number was 17. We have added one more, the coordinator for the Decad e of the Disabled , so we're at 18 now. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Heights . MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: You have 18 staff years in this department , as oppose d to 17 staff years for last year? HON. M. SMITH: Yes. MRS. S.

CARSTAIRS: And the rest of that , I assume it's about $60,000 , is taken up with just annual wage increases? HON. M. SMITH: The general salary increase, plus associated operating costs for the coordinator . It' s 1038

Wednesday, 18 June, 1986 about 48.7 in general salary incre ase and $23,000 for the operating costs for the co-ordina tor. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: I must be misreading this, Mr . Chairman, because I see approximately $90,000 in just salary increases, which I assume Other Expenditur es have gone into too. HON. M. SMITH: The increases, as I calcula te it, 88.7 thousand is made up of 40,000 for the coordi nator, Decade of the Disabled, and 48,700 for the general salary incr ease. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thi s budg et, interes tingly enough, has gone up by 17 percent, or this

section of the budget, and through the Minister's term of office, some 71 percent. I have difficulty reconc iling that against the figur es that she gave earlier about 12.1 for Child and Family; 12.8 for Family and Ho memakers. Why is this department still rece iving such a large chunk increase? HON. M. SMITH: Well, it has to do with the functions they perform.

We've located the coordinator for the Decade of the Disabled in this area, because we have felt very strongly the need to respond to the disabled who want programs, and a plan of action for the decade; but also because many government departments deliver programs to the disabled and we felt it important to lodge a coordinator somewhere, not necessarily to manage programs, and this seemed to be the best location for that individual. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (cX1) - the Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: Would this be the area that would be liaising with the Federal Government for funding for the women's resource centres? HON. M. SMITH: I wish there were active and productive liaison with the Federal Government for cost sharing women's resource centres. To date we've had no indication from them of willingn ess, or even of a department that would look at it. MRS. G. HAMMOND: What initiatives ha� the Mini ster taken in this area to try and get cost-sharing? HON. M.

SMITH: At federal-provincial meetings we have consistently raised the whole family violence area, women's needs, day care, as well as the vocational reha bili tation issues, the Native Child and Family serv icing, possible changes in the Canada Assistance Plan. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes, I was speaking in particular about the liaison with the Federal Government about the funding for the women's resource centres and, in particul ar, the Fort Garry Women's Resource Centre. I was wondering what initiatives had been taken to get further funding. HON. M.

SMITH: While I was Mini ster for Status of Women, we liaised with the Secretary of State who was at that time funding resource centres, but has since discontinued. We will, because we have the Women's and Human Resource Centre Prog ram in this department, be actively approaching the Federal Government for some kind of cost-sharing under Canada Assistance Plan. MRS. G. HAMMOND: So, what the Min ister is saying that it hasn't been actively pursued before this time? HON. M.

SMITH: Currently , the Canada Assistance Plan does not have a program category, as it were, a criterion that would permit a human resource centre to be funded, so the negotiation must involve opening up the Canada Assistance Plan. The Provincial Ministers have all been interested in improving and making more flexible the Canada Assistance Plan and there are quite a few items on the table. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Mr . Chairman, I'm just doing a little arithmetic here.

The Minis ter said that the actual salary increases were 48.7, 48,700 which represents ab out a 7.5 percent incr ease. Is that reflective of the incr eases in staff thr oughout the Department of Community Services? HON. M. SMITH: No, overall averages are down more in the 3 percent area, I think. There are variations area by area depending on the particular staff, their level of pay, where they are in the range. There's merit increments plus increments as they gain experience, but there's only so many steps and then they level off, so there's not an exact distribution, if you like, of inc rease. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The time being 4:30, it's time for Private Members' Hour . Committee rise. SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: Committee, please come to order. We have been considering the Estim ates of the Department of Agriculture. We are now in Item No. 4. (eX3), Agricultural Societies. The Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr . Chairman, before we begin, I'd like to introduce to you - most of the members know him, I'm sure - Morris Deveson who is the dir ector of our Technical Services and Training Branch. He's been in the service a long time.

For the information of honourable members, I'd like to present them with the 19 86 Manitoba Fairs Guide that might be of interest to all members. As well, we did get our hands on two copies - there will be a new one out - of the Febru ary 19 86 sum mary of approved Agri-Food projects for members opposite, and I would lik e to sh are some in formation with honour able members deal in g with the qu estions of pesticide residues in honey. Limited testing of honey for pesticide residues has been carried out for some time by the Federal Health 1039

Wednesday, 18 June, 1986 Protection Branch. The most recent testing was in 1985 on honey from western Manitoba with no significant residues being found. Similar results were obtained from tests carried out by a graduate student of the University of Manitoba . The chance of significant residues occurring in honey is slight because honeybees themselves are extremely sensitive to pesticides . Significant residues in nectar would kill the bees before they return to the hive so that there is very little chance of having any significant pesticide residue in honey.

For the information of the Honourable Member for Portage , dealing with wood preservatives in vegetable storages, the only acceptable method of preserving wood used in application subject to a high decay hazard is through the use of pressure-injec ted fungicides. At present there are no preservatives registered for use in direct contact with food in long-term fruit and vegetable storages. Recent health concerns related to cancer have eliminated the possible use of chemicals such as creosote or pentachlorophenyls.

Pressure-treate d chromated-copper arsenate , as well as a small numbe r of other chemicals , appear to be relatively safe preservatives; however the appropriate testing required for registration has not been carried out . Staff have pursued a number of issues since the problem is national in scale . We feel that the responsibility lies with the Federal Government to initiate the research necessary for registration .

Clarification has been obtained from Ag-Canada under recommendations regarding exactly where in vegetable storage CCA lumber can be used; condensation moisture which collects in the insulation system of vegetable storages is a major factor in wood decay . Our engineers are presently developing innovative methods of insulating vegetable storages and , to the best of our knowledge, none of the research require d for registration or a preservative for direct long-term contact with food products has been carried out or is under way by either Agriculture Canada or the private industry . MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for La Verendry e. MR. H. PANKRATZ: Thank you , Mr. Chairman. To the Minister , I would just like to make a correctio n before you actua lly get too seriously into debate . Yesterday, I made the statement that the price of fuel was higher this year than last year. I did check that out this morning and I will have to retract that statement . Due to the lower price in the world oil prices, the price has come down below. So for the record I should make that withdrawal. HON. B. URUSKI: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Virden . MR. G.

FINDLAY: I was away yesterday afternoon, and you may have answe red this question, but when I look at line (e)(3) there, the Ag Societies are down some almost $77,000.00. Why there? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman , I believe that I explained this matter yesterday . The member should be aware that we did take out of the budget the whole estimate budget of Austin Museum of $123.6 thousand. That was the reason. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Under the appropriations for Ag Societies, does that include any capital allocations or grants that woul d go to societies? HON. B. URUSKI: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, there is a board , the Agricultural Societies Board , who are provided with a budget. We have just under $121,000 towards bui lding grants in the budget, and then there are other funds for Keystone in terms of capital, and other grants like to the Agriculture Hall of Fame, horse racing meets, judges' fees , prize money for the different categories of fairs, tota ling the $566.2 thousand. That wou ld be the breakdow ns that we would have . The largest one of the total would be the building grants of $121,000 , and the fair's prize money of just under $232,000.00.

They wou ld make up the bulk of that $566,000.00 . MR. G. CUMMINGS: The $121,000 that you refer to , the formula used for that is broken down between wha t used to be referred to as the Class C and Class B fairs , the size of the fair s in societies. Was there a formula used for the allocation of those funds or how are they allocated now? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, there is no definitive formula .

The advisory board , and really the advice totally comes from the advisory board, they take all the applications that come in, they look at what has been gran ted in the past, they look at the scop e of the application , and try as best they can to allow some portion of the requ est to be met by these funds. The advice is totally submitted by the Ag Societ ies Advisory Board and we act upon that advice. MR. G. CUMMINGS: I stand to be corrected on this point. The inform at ion that came to me was that there was an allocation which is considerably less than this, but an allocation of $40 ,000.00.

I was won dering if that was divided as being appropriated solely for " Class C" fairs or is there any division in that manner? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised that there is a division of mon ies, as the member points out, between the various classes of fairs. Mr. Chairman, I will provide the honourable member inform ation based on last year 's figures; that will give him some indication. The

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	33-1-29
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	33rd 1st hansardpdf 29.pdf
Language	en
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