Volume 3 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 3rd. Session VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 28, 1974 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 78

~ovemher 2R, 1974 Afternoon Session Tape 1747 The House met at 3:()() P."l, pursuant to adjournment. 1>fr. SneaYer in the Chair. l1'R,. SPEAK.YR: Order, nlense! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS ).ffi. SPF.AKER : The Hon, the Premier. PK - l Mr, Sneaker, first of all, since we last sat. the Chief Justice, the Hon •. lames D. Hi1,:q;ins, has passed away ;rid f 'WoUld-Tike at this time for the House to p~y tribute to a very distinguished Newfoundlander• Justice Higg:lns,as we know,was a member of this Hou,u• of Assemhly, He u;u:; n memher of the Citv Council. He was n memher of the Supreme Court.

He wns a man who had a very successful criminal lat-1 riracticr in th:fs Province, a man who wns involved fn many community activities. Particularly in St John's, his name :f" associated \.Tith recreation and ha" heen for the lnst manv, manv vears hefore hi,s death. I uould like to move that the llouse of ARsembly p,o on record and exnress to his vidoY our r'leeriest i:;vm.nathv at hiR r,astdn,:. 1--fR. SPEP..KFF: The Hon. Leader of the nnnositon.

HnN, E. v, ~OBFRTS (LFADFR OF THE OPPO~ITTO,!l): Mr, SpP.aker, mv collearues and I would like to be associated with the motion madt": by th~ Prem:fer·, that a resolution of i:;yrnnathy he sent to Hrs. Higr,ins,the widow of the late "Mr. Justice James D. Higr;im,~and to the other members of his family, I sunnnse in particular Dr. Bill H:lp,gi.ns; vr. Brian Hi~gins, rouncillor Higgins, 1'hf> Premier said Mr. Justice Hi,~q:~ins served in the House.

He •,1as here for eiitht vears, He never sat in this Chamber but he was in the House, J-le tms electerl in 1951 and then aRain in 1951\ in each cnse renresentinP: the then D:lstr:fct of St. John'i:; East. t think that district noY is represented hv two meml,ers,in effect the present N~mher for St. John's Fast Extern and the 1 fomher for St, Johnts Ft1.Rt.

Nr . .Jui:;tice H:lpg:fn!'l vas a man who felt his oolitical principles very stronRlv and in ll'J5° he dHfered with manv members of his Mrty and he followed h:is noUtical nrincinles, T th:f.nk thnt thnt was the mnrk of Jim Higgins ns a man nnri a!': a lnwvers and ns n le~islator ard as a Jurist. Jfo went to the nench in JOf,3 nn<l in the last ten venrs served as a Mp.mhn of the Sunrerrte rourt. 7164

Novennher '."A, ] n7 4 Tape 1747 'PK- 2 T know T hnve henrd th!'! lnvvers who nract:tced before h:fm speak with resnect and uith ndrn:fration of hin conduct on the Bench and his character and the Misdom in hiR rulinr-s, It is a loRB to !--leHfoundJand that n man should die of hi,; a!le RO nuddenlv nnd so trap,icnlly. I thinV. we nrP all the worRt off because of :ft.

Tt is ent::trelv fittinp that the rnot:fon Rhould be made nt the start of this session recause latPr this dnv or tomorrow,whenever the order of business is c:1lled,ve vi]l be d~al:fng with Jim H11;1;ina' last contr:f.hution to nuhlic life in Nevfoundln.nd, the Tlpnort of the Commi~!don on Redistribution,uhich, of courRe, he chaired. That renort nnnarentlv ie to form a ma1or nart of the bu~:fness to be hrought before the HouRe in the next few dava.

Jim Hir,r,ins aervrd Newfoundland well, Sir, M'of'lt of us in this House t thinr'.. t-mre nrourl to call him a friend and many members could spealr T 1'tl"'I ~ure of nerRonal anrcdoteR hut, Sir, we have all lost so~ethinl? and the nt'ople of !iewfoundland have lost Mmethinr, in his pasAinl? and above all hiR familv have loRt a verv Rreat deal. So my colleagueR and I r.JOulrl like to he a•rnocinted t-tith the l'10tion Phich thr. Premier haR moved, Your Honour. "'1, SPEAKER, The Hon. the Premier. HR, "OOPF'S: Once a~n.1.n,~r.

Sneaker, it is very rare that one ha111 an onnortunitv to thank a f!l.ernher of the Rtaff of the. HouRe.

In this case Miss Kit or Katherine Murnhv :in a neraon whom I knot.1 vou had paid honour ;o her to at the recent:f.on laRt EWeninR but I think this House Ahofild RO on record of ROMeone in nublic Aervic;- who has srrved this House so well, In rrc~nt venrs.Rta:rting in 1950, hut in recent yearR,ns the F'.ditor of Hansard, I think" that she deserveR the exnression of annreciRtion from this House for a 1ol> that t<he haq done exceptionally well, nurinr, the vears she rnvP. assiatance tn n ~reat many thinRR that verP hnnneninp: in this nrov:fnce, the ?.oynl Commission on Economic ProsnectR, the Roynl Commission on Term 29, NALCO, BRINCO, Labour nenartment Hearin~s and many other functions of government that were n.bove and hevond the call of he,r dutv. nut I tMnlr she has nerformed in thi,; !louse nnd she has nerformed ndmirahlv. ! vould like for the Pause to go on record 1.n anpreciation of the,, trrnnrnrlous contribution she has made. 7165

~ovemher ?R, 1974 Tape 1747 PK - 3 The Hon. Leader of the Onoositon. "R. SPF.AKER: ~. ROBERTS: Mr. Sneaker, we share the Premier's feelings, I think it is entirely appropriate and right that the House should pass - I would like to i;ee it made a formal resolution reco~nizing MiAs 1'fllrphv, (I am delighted to see that she is here :f.n the gallery today) a formal resolution reco~ni:i:inR her unique contribution and brr role over the years in this House. I supnose that ~iss Murnhy has prohably heard more dehatas than any memher ~r any speaker or any person whoever attended the House.

I think it is a tri.bute to her endurance and to her courave and to her devotion to Newfoundland that she URS ahle to nrenare and to read ·so many dbates and Rtill carrv on with the work. The fact that in the last few years we have had a daily Hnnsard, it iB an innnenee achievement, When we started I was not sure it could he dnne1 but we do pet a daily HanRard now.

The printing is delayed but 1.t is not the fault of the Editor of neh11tes and the ~irlR who work with her in the HanRard Office; hanP,uns in the Printint I>e.nartment somewhere apparently. flut it 1s an immense contributien, it is one which will help very much in thel vears to come, Ue now have the perm:an~nt record of the '1/0rde of thie HouRe. Kit Hurohy haA Aet the standards hy uhich all the F.dftore of nebate1 "1ho will follow her in the years to come will be measured, 7166

November 28, 1974. Tape 1748 RH - I from the years to come, my wish they will be measured. I think we should pass a motion and it should be suitably presented to Miss Murphy. I think that is just the least we can do to recognize the contribution which she has made. 1 am deli~hted she is here with us today. We will miss her. We will miss the phone calls asking• 11 Mr.'' (blank)," just uhat ·.-as that word you used because the girls have not been able to puzzle it out." It turns out more often that the member could not puzzle it out either. So it goes in the Hansard as a deleted phrase. We will miss her very much.

I hope that she will come back to see us once in a while. Now that she does not have to take it down and edit it hack, perhaps she can enjoy the debates. Who knows• maybe if things RO as the Premier seems to indicate and we have another reference to the country,well Kit Murphy will be back here and taking

part in things. I think that would be great fun. MR. EARL WINSOR (Fogo): Mr. Speaker, I think I would be remiss in my duty if I did not get up and join the Hon. Premier and the Leader of the Opposition in extending best wishes to Miss Murphy on her retirement. I am the only sitting member today who had the privilege of serving in the old (as we referred to it) House of Assembly,when Miss Murphy just sat there for hours as a stenotypist, DurinR those days, Mr. Speaker, it was a practice that during the afternoon a recess of ten or fifteen minutes was taken. This always provided Miss Murphy with a little break.

At the beginning she had a relief. However when we moved from that building to here we cancelled out for some reason or other the recess period and Miss Murphy used to sit there in that corner for hours and I have often wondered and I thought that Miss Murphy must have the best plumbing system that is known to man because she must have gone through some anta~onizing hours sitting there with no relief, takinf down all of the words, every word that was said in this honourable House,and I am sure many times she must have felt very confused. So, Mr.

Speaker, I would certainly extend to Miss Murphy every good wish for a very deserving and enjoyable retirement.

November 28, 1974, Tape 1748 RH - 2 HR. FINTON ALYWARD, Mr. Speaker, I would like to add a fev remarks to the mover and seconder of this motion. I can really speak with some knowledge of Miss Murphy's contribution because I was a member of the staff of the House of Assembly when she took the debates in the old Assembly. As the honourable gentleman from Fogo just said 9 we all wondered just how it was possible for one human being to record what took place down in that House.and this was Miss Murphy and entirely on her own.

Anybody who like the members of the staff who worked closely with her is aware of what a wonderful woman she is really. She is a very, very intelligent person. Of course she comes from this ancient and honourable district of Placentia and I am sure heredity plays no small

part in the brains of Miss Murphy. I am very, very pleased to learn that in her retirement she plans to take up residence in Southeast Placentia. I am sure she will make a great contribution to the social life and to the cultural life of Placentia, I can only say as other speakers have said that I think Miss Murphy has made a singular contri­ bution to the public life of this Province. I think she is a woman who displayed the ability to work under great pressure.

I am sure that when.as has often beer the practice,immediate demands have been made for what members had just said and she found it necessary to go up to her room and get all of this typed up, We hardly realized at that time what pressure must be on Miss Murphy. Well I am sure that each and every one of us appreciate it.

Also I think she is a very, very intelligent woman, I listened last night with interest when she told us how at one time the Canadian Association of Hansard reporters wrote Miss Murphy for what was going on in Newfoundland and at that time we were in one of our sessions and she wrote back and said, nI am lost on a sea of verbiage and I cannot see land," So we are glad to see that she will see land and that land will be in Placentia, Once again I want to say thank you to Miss Murphy and wish her the best of luck in her years of retirement. HR. A. MURPHY (Minister of Social Services): Mr.

Speaker, members of the House of Assembly, I might say, Sir, that this is one of the proudest 7168

November 28, 1974. Tape 1748 RH - 3 moments of my life. I have very good news for thousands of our Newfound­ landers who are trying to manage the family budget on a fixed income in the face of skyrocketing cost of living. First let me go back to last year at approximately this time, Sir, when we introduced our new social assistance programme. Everyone will remember that people on social assistance had had only a seven per cent increase in their allowance over the previous six or seven years.

This administration, Sir, through the new social assistance programme gave over ninety per cent of all social assistance recipients substantial increases in their allowances, One of the features of the new social assistance programme was the commitment to index social assistance benefits in future to the cost of living, instead, Sir, of granting occasional raises on an ad hoc basis whenever political expedience required it, It therefore gives me very great joy to announce that affective January 1, 1975, 18,000 families, Sir, 55,000 fellow and sister Newfoundlanders will receive an across the board increase in their social assistance of approximately 12.7 per cent.

Mr. Speaker, this is not the national coAt of living increase which is estimated at 10.4 per cent but the Newfoundland increase which is as we all know one of the highest in Canada. The promise we made, Sir, is being kept. Social assistance recipients should get their raises on their end of January cheque, Sir, All of them will get a raise and the reason I say end of January is because I think everybody is aware, Sir, that we brought in another great social advance.

We now pay social assistance twice a month, not just monthly and unfortunately due to computerizing, so on and so forth, I do not believe the increases will be ready by the fifteenth of January. It is going to cost $6.5 million a year. That will be, Sir, a total of $18.5 million 7169

tlovcmber 2E, 197 4 Tape 1749 IB-1 that this government has put in since we tool: over. This will mean that the Social Assistance Programme will nO\I' cost in excess of $50 million a year, Sir, $5n million a year. This r,overnment, Sir, is very much concerned about poor people. This raise is tangible evi<lence of this concern. It is aleo tangible evidence, Sir, if I may he a little political, that ve are a planning governr.lent, a r,overnment that doeA thinr,A p;ystemetically. So, I would say, Sir, let the messnp:e go out to all Newfoundlanders that ve keep our prom:! ~es.

In conclusion, Sir, and with your pPrmhsion, may I at this time exten<l ny c:le~pest appredation, Sir, to the memhera of my stnff, hath at hendqu.1rter!> and in the field. who have heen sul,jected this year in particular, Sir, to noRt unreasonnblP, unjust criticisms - a group of people, Sir, uho have workeJ their hearts out to try to neet the needs of our rr.nple and c.arry out the prot:,nmune in the vay that the law intends, Also.

Sir, to thanlr my Premier, your Premier, our Premier for his hunnn.f t•• cin,l !'1V collcap,uc-f:l in the Hou~c of AssenLly nod all ny collcnp;uf'B, '3ir,who .-1,:rrc to this, notuithstanding, Sir, tl:e tremendouf'. pressure that has been rut on every departr:'lent of government for dollars that are very !rnrd to c.ome J-:v. In conclusion, l'r. Speaker, I n::n vf'ry, very h:1ppy indc(';d to mnke this .1nnounc.cmcrit. As T r:nid earlier, this is one of the proudest J2vs of f:!Y life,. I thanlt you all vf>ry much. ·in. PJ1BfRTS· :·r. S11enl:(';r, if I may say just a worc:1 or so on that.

Ol-viousl:;, as f.ir as tht' nnnounc.encnt r,oes, it is 1>clcone nnd t..•c should all 1;elcone it. I tliinJ, nnyl:ody 1;ho is the lea,;t hit ntmrc of 1;hnt is ;;oing on in 'lC't:foundL::md toJay knovpcoplc d10, as the minister says, nrr'. trying to live on ;i fixed income nnd ,:-110 must attempt to r..alce ends neet on o fix.cc incm:1c - these peoplC' are people llho get most cruelly 11ft 1 ;' t 11c- cnl 1 it t-•h;it you vnnt- inflnt:!on or the risinp coRt of livinp:, trhntcvcr one t-1ants to cnl 1 it. So, .tG far as it goes we •1,.'el cof!lc it. '-'.r. ~peaker. it is too little and it is too lntc.

The> !:'!Ost thnt tLe r.inistcr has clone is to hring thesc, people hid to 11hcre they were t\..•elve nontlis ago. Hc> tnlh'l al:out plnnninr. The only olanninR t!1e 7170

Tape 1749 mini::.tcT li;,s in nind, I ~mul1' Gurcc·:.t, ii1 t'.10 rl;,rminr: an .1por,.'ll to t'.H' people in trvinrr to ~r>t :1 f£>1.' r10re votf's. 11Pll, if h(' riot'!", r,or,· rio•-•rr to hir. if lt: 1:ill help pconlc ;ilonr t 1w •ray. '!111n r7ey taH- nbout ,1 co7rriitnr:-nt to fnCe:dng. S1r, if this i+01.1crnrent h;,J ,1n;• cm:::nitnc,:1t nt c1ll to t!tis concept of indexinr,, they t'OuV~ '.-rin::: br:-forl' this !1nu~c this dav or tor.nrrou n l1 i!l to ;imcnd the .,ct ttP( 1i:r 11Jdcli this :fs flilid onO mat•.t- t1t.'!.t cornnitmC'nt to Lndexing statutorv nnd to lie cnrric>d out on R C1u11rto>rlv bnsis.

That if> uhnt tlw ':ovcr:mcnt of ranocln do ,dth th!c.r social - ~Ir. Spcn.ker, let the honoura~,lc ;;cntlcnan - ·ir. Spcal:C'r, dot have the floor? ·rp __ S!'l ,\.Tf'.: Order, nlcasc! •rr .. A'!L'!M'n: __ T!i nnv ~c:rn11cr ocrnitted to de\ ate .'.l nini!'lterial statement? ''R. sr~J.J:Err:_ 0rdc-,r, please! 0rder, please.! The honournhlc Leader of the npnosit:fon does have the floor and hns the right to be heard in ~Hence unlc-ss the honourable me!Mer ie raisin):: n point of order or !;omethinr. lih,. t•rnt uhich hr> dit! not or I did not itc-,,r hi:,. ·'it.

AYL'/JP.D:_ I nr, rn.istn~ n "!)Dint of order, Sir, that ;i ninisterfo.l stat!!MC'nt Cfinnot b<' debated. T1tat is <'Ill l m:i .snyin)'.'.. t r:rnv J-,e wrong; I h,:1vc b0c.1 on a coup] e of occasions. ·!P .• SPL\fU:R: Hith rer,11rds to ninisterial statencntg: It hns t.een a custor:i, I think, at least since I have hecn here - it is not a rule hut n custom tlwt the Leader of the Opnosition or .'.l desir,nated person in the op11osition in remitted a fM-r remnrl:s vith regards to ministerial statc.:ll'nts but not debatccl ar. such. I thin} the honourable Leader of th"!

Opnor.ititin should spea]: to the content of the statement. 7171

November 28, 1974 Tape no. 1750 Page 1 - MW MR. ROBERTS: I am, Mr. Speaker. I thank Your Honour for allowing me to continue despite the harassments from the honourable gentlemen on the other side. The point I was making was that if this government and the minister referred to the commitment to indexing. The point that I was making was if the Tories have any commitment to the concept of indexing, they will bring in a bill to provide by statute that the social assistance payments are indexed. They can be tied to an arbitrary standard, Statistics Canada standards. It can be done automatically.

That is what happens to family allowance. That is what happens to the old age pension. That is what happens to the veterans' allowance. That is what happens with the concept of indexing, All that we have here is the cabinet have decided, as cabinets have decided in the past, to increase the social assistance rates, Well, more power for that, full marks, full credit is due but no attempt to posture or to cloak one's self in a seamless garment. While they are on the subject, Sir, would the minister consider as well restoring the family allowances?

Because what this govenunent didt e-welve months past, with a great reform of which he boasted in ftis statement was one of the shoddiest and cheapest examples that I have ever seen of political chicanery. MR. SPEAKER: Order please: MR. MARSHALL: I think the Hon. Leader of the Opposition understands that on ministerial statements he is entitled to make a few remarks, ask for a few explanations. There is to be no debate allowed. I think the Hon. Leader of the Opposition must realize that he is now entering into an area of debate. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, may I speak to the point of order?

I submit I was not entering into any debate. I was referring to remarks made by the gentleman from St. John's Centre in his ministerial statement 7172

November 28, 1974 Tape no.1750 Page 2 where he went so far in a ministerial statement to say, with no objection from the House Leader or anybody else, if I may be political, then he launched into a vicious little tirade as only the honourable gentleman from St. John's Centre can. I submit, Sir, that my remarks were not out of order. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. ROBERTS: if I may. (Inaudible) • I would like to conclude what I have to say, MR. MARSHALL: If I may comment, Mr. Speaker, just for a moment on the remarks of the Hon, Leader of the Opposition on the point of order. The Hon.

Leader of the Opposition does not obviously discern the difference between a ministerial statement and somebody replying. The Hon. Leader of the Opposition at one time was in a position to make ministerial statements but he is not likely to ever again, In the opposition, as Leader of the Opposition, he is only entitled, under the rules of Beauchesne, under the rules of this House, (This is new because it was not allowed before but this is new) to make a few remarks and explanations but not enter into debate. MR. SPEAK.ER: The point of order raised by the Hon. Member for St.

John's East is vell taken, I think the Hon. Leader of the Opposition was straying somewhat from the remarks via the content of the ministerial statement. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Now, if I may conclude, trying to stay within the rules, I am not so much concerned with the Hon. House Leader's

interpretation of the rules. It is Your Honour who runs this House and interprets the rules for us. The minister spoke about increasing the social assistance last year but let it be remembered again that they did that by taking into account the family allowance. I say again it was the shoddiest piece of political chicanery that I have ever seen, Furthermore, Mr. Speaker - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). 7173

November 28, 1974 Tape no. 1750 Page 3 MR. SPEAKER: Order please! . MR. MARSHALL: (Inaudible) • MR. SPEAKER: Is the honourable member raising a point of order? MR. MARSHALL: Yes, Mr. Speaker. The Hon. Leader of the Opposition is obviously. deliberately ignoring Your Honour's ruling. Now Your Honour's ruling was that this matter was not to be debated. I know it has been a long, hot summer. It haa been a long, hot summer for the Leader of the Opposition. The Leader of the Opposition ia bound by Your Honour 1 s ruling as well as anybody in this House and he is not allowed to debate it. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon.

Leader of the Opposition I feel was debating the ministerial statement. I think it probablj should •nd now. MR. ROBERTS: Sir, I was not debating it. If Your Honour should feel I was, I shall come hack to it. Let me just conclude by saying again that the Minister of Social Services says that they are raising thia and then he refers to the family allowance being federal, He did not have the courage nor the integrity nor even the wisdom to say that of the $6.5 million increase in allowances - MR. MURPHY: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order please! The Hon.

Leader of the Opposition is continuing to debate the ministerial statement and this will not ha permitted. I shall now recognize somebody else. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. The Hon. Leader of the Opposition is going much further than that. He is impugning the integrity of the Hon. Minister of Social Aaaiatance. The record will show he has not got, I think it was "the p;uts" but certainly he used the word integrity. I think the Hon. Leader of the Opposition should 7174

November 28, 1974 Tape 1751 IB-1 be asked to retract such statements and such imputations against a member of this House. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, to the point of order, 1 was certainly impugning the political integrity of the gentleman from St. John's Centre and I - A.f>l HONOURABLE MEMBER: Weasel. MR. ROBERTS: There is nothing weasel about it, Sir. The gentleman from Placentia West has surfaced again. We will deal with him in due course. I was impugning the political integrity of the gentleman from St. John's Centre because I believe that he has himself impugned it.

If that is out of order, if it is to be withdrawn 1 if Your Itonour instructs me to, I shall of course withdraw it. Let me say again, I have nothing against the gentleman's personal integrity but his political integrity I certainly do impugn. !-lR. AYU1A.TUl: I am so hsppy. I am really worried. lfil, SPEAKER: Order, please! I shall read the Hansard ns to what wes actually said and rule on it later. Any other ministerial statements? HON. J.C. CROSBIE (MINISTER OF FISHERIES): We are finished with this now. We are calling for new statements. Mr. Speaker. I don't want to be controversial, Hr.

Speaker, I just wanted to report to the House: Honourable gentlemen opposite have already given me a pain in the neck and I may have to wear a collar here tomorrow. I would not even describe where the honourable Leader of the Opposition gives me a pain, It would be obscene. Now, Hr.

Speaker, I want to inform the House that the report of Doctor Harris and the other members of the conciliation board,who were appointed to look into the dispute be~een the Newfoundland Fishermen Food and Allied Workers, Local 625,and B.C, Packers Limited, Atlantic Fish, National Sea Products Limited, Fishery Products Limited and Booth Fisheries in connection 1,1ith the trawler fishery, will be tabled in the House tomorrow and released to the press and the public, The reason that it has not been made public up to this time, Mr.

Speaker, should be obvious in that it is i conciliation hoard report and primarily it is for the benefit of the two parties to the collective 7170

November 28, 197 4 Tape 1751 IB-2 dispute. One of those parties, Mr. Cashin, the president of the Newfoundland Union of Fishermen Food and Allied Workers, had requested that the report not be released until the fifteen days were up because he is meeting today with the Trawlermens 1 Committee of the union here in St. John's and reviewing the report with them. MR. WOODWARD: Who is going to be elected president,first. HR. CROSBIE: Well, their convention is on Friday and Saturday and we are not going to worry who is elected president. That is up to the members of the union. It will be released tomorrow, Mr. Speaker.

The reason why this report is being released publicly at all is that the terms of reference of the conciliation bOard were quite broad and all encompassing and it was asked to look into the present problems in the fishing industry and to look into the question of whether the fishing companies could afford to pay any more than the prices they were paying last July and look into the social requirements and needs of the trawler fishermen.

Because this report is of general interest to anybody who lives in Newfoundland and it certainly is of interest to both governments and because action has already been taken to look into what needs to be done now to assist the fishing industry by both governments, the report should be made public and it will be tomorrow. !1R. ROBERTS: Hell, Mr. Speaker, we are pleased that the report is to be made public. We have already publicly asked that it be made public.

I do thank the minister for the information which I for one did not have before nnd I suspect many people did not+ that it was being kept secret, kept private at the request of one of the parties to the dispute in res~ect of which the conciliation board has reported.

I wonder if the minister could undertake to ensure that in this session of the House, the next few days or whatever it is, we could have a debate on the report or, if he wish on the fishing industry generally because the situation is more thnn serious and we have all heard time and tir.i.e again - it was on the CBC last night, it was on the CJOX station earlier in the weel: ~ that we literally may have no trawlers sailing after Christmas out of the South Coast ports. This is a very serious situation and it 717ti

November 28, 1971• Tape 1751 IB-3 should be debated as quickly as possible.in my view. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, it is impossible for me to give a commitment without consulting the Premier and the rest of the members of the government. I ~ould not be surprised if the time could be arranged. Even if it were not arranged in government time it can be arranged for Private :,1embers' Day. So, 1 7171

Novemher 2R, 1974 Tape 175? PK - 1 cannot Rive a definitive answer unt:fl l check uith the rest of my colleap;uea. As to whether of course the honourable P.:entleman understands that both p:overnments are intensely studying th::ls matter, Ftnal solutions are not gninr: to he ahle to be hrounht forwarcl in this session if it onlv last tm, weeks but a debate of the whole situation mii:tht he Uf!eful. t have to p,ive them a definitive answer tomorrow. PFTITIONS: •,fR, SPfAV:f!_:_ The Hon. Minister of Hines and Enerµ;y: IlflN. L. R. BARPY {rlfnister of 4ines and Fnerrv): ur.

Sneaker, I have a number of netitions here and shall present them in order• if I may. The first netftion, Hr. Speaker, is from the residents of Portier, who ;;_re mostlv fishermen, who have signed the pP.tition, anproximately sixty-one si~natures. It is the wish of these fishermen that the harhour at Mortier be dredr,ed, There is a note to the effect that it is realized that this is the resnonsibility of the federal government. This is addressed to mvself. · That vou in your capacity as our NHA have been worl-::fng in our behalf to have the nroiect comnleted.'.

And reference to the fact that the Council at Fox Cove, Mortier, it iR a rural district council incornorating both communities of ~ortier and Fox Cove, that they hnv~ heen working on this matter since thev uere incornorated in 1970. It :ts indicated thnt they hRve been receiving vague nrom:i sea while thP.ir harhour is cmicHy filling up with Rilt. The Council endorses this netition and asks me to oncP.: aga:i.n contact the appropriate officials on their behalf as t..iell as tabling this petition. Hr. Spenlrer, on this matter, r have made renrri:;entation many times since 1Q72, March 1972,when I was elected.

It :fs hecoming a serious situation. We hnve fishermen who are making a good living in the inshore fishery. When you consider the problems that are existinR not just the inshore fishery but as the Minister of Fisheries just nointed out with respects tn the trawler fishery also, it is imnortant that wherever we can do soniethinr, liVe this it is going to heln a significant number of fishermen, lt is goinR to enable them to carry on their livelihood nroperly without anv great cost, w:i.thout anv great imaginative or innovated prop.rammes on the part of the federal government. We are asking that ;t drerlee, '!r.

Sneaker, he brought over to dredge out the harbour at Mortier. ~ow that is not too much to ask. 7i78

Novenher 28, 1974 Tnne 1752 PK - 2 I received this retition. »r. Sneaker, almost twn months ap.o, uhile the House was not in sesi:iion, RO I immediately contacted the federal officials again. I have to confesi; that the imHvi.duah that t sneak to here in the St, John's office annPar to he co-operativP and have assured me that this dredg:fng vi.11 tnke. place. Rut, \Jr.

Speaker, I would like to have this tabled and referred to the dennrtment to vhich it relntes and I woul<l think most nrohahlv thP he.st nlace 1!! for i.t to ~o to the Department of Fisheries so that we could have the nreqimre from the Provincial nennrtment of Fishertes on the federal government to see that thev do somethinJ? for the fishermen of Ne\.1foundland, narticularly in this cai:;c.> for the fishermen of Mortier. MR. E. WINSOR: Hr. Sneaker, it is a great nriviletv! for us on thiFI side of the House to !'lutmort the netttirm presented hv the hon. Member for Placentia _ is :ft F:ast? West?

It is surprising to me that the honourable member has to • bring in such a petition and present it in this honourable House. Why was not the petition sent to their federal member? HR. HARRY: lnaurUble. HR HINSO!): Well there ha~ been verv little heard frofll him on that matter. Ho"Wever, - HR. ~mARY: I~ the netition in order? Is it a copv or is it the or:fr,inal? However, Hr. Sneaker, for the f1shermen 1 A Aa1'e - and there are manv, many othPr harl-ourF.! a.round the eon~t of Newfoundlnnd where such l-l'Or1' is nece~Aarv.

There are manv shallow harhours around Newfoundland where the fi~hPrmen today are gettin~ larger And hi~Pser boat~. The draft iR not there in thnt hnrhour to tal·e care of the larr:er hoats, Therefore, t think it iA a TieCPRsitv thnt such Horlr bP done,. So it :fi; our nrivileJ?r. to sunnort th~ netition and we trust that the honourahlP mrmber trlll hP ,mcce.ssful in per,mndinit the federnl authorities to dn th:l,A worlr and to do it this year, l.flL :::Pf'AXF'P! ::_'1!.:_~RY : Tht>: Hon. "-HniRter of M'fn~R nnd Enerp;v. T havP ,mother net it ion.

T thank the honournhlP, member onnor.;ite fnr hiF; kind summrt. ~tr. Snetlker, thb 11'J 11 to 7179

November 28, 1974. Tape 1753 petition with respect to the supplying of better pasture facilities, again from residents of Mortier. It is a petition with seventy-one signatures and they are pointing out that a number of residents, an ever increasing number of residents in the town are getting their own cattle r'h'ls is, I "1ould say, one of the side effects of the increasing cost of living in Newfoundland that more of our people are realizing that it is desireable to supplement their incomes and to reduce their food bills by raising their own animals as they have dona traditionally.

There is some pressure on the community pasture in the area at Winterland and there is an indication that improved facilities might be necessary. I ask that this petition be tabled and referred to the department to which it relates, MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member from Bonavista North. RH - l MR. P. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, my colleagues and I on this side of the House would certainly like to support the prayer of the petition presented by the honourable member. Mr. Speaker, it was only last year that the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture increased the fees on provincial pastures in the Province.

This, of course, has put an extra strain on the people, the cattlemen especially, throughout our Province. I would like to see the Provincial Government increase the acreage of community pastures in the Province, not only the present pastures but also to create new ones in various areas where they are definitely needed. Of course~ the Mortier is definitely such an area­ as I know the area quite well, also the area of Winterland,and while in the area there is ample room for such pastures, I suppose the Burin Peninsulahasone of the greatest pastures we ow in Newfoundland today. Very little of it is utilized.

I would certainly support the petition, Mr. Speaker, and I pray that the government will sometime in the near futures drop the rates that they imposed last year which have set such a heavy burden upon the cattlemen of our Province, 7180

November 28, 1974. Tape 1753 RH - 2 MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. L. BARRY: Hr. Speaker, one final petition and this is from residents of Petit Forte and South East Bight in Placentia Bay, two communities that are presently isolated, no road connections. ThiR petition is sir,ned by 104 residents. Mr. Speaker, therCarestill a few persons out in Placentia Bay despite the ravages caused by the policies of the previous administration. Mr.

Speaker, if I could just read out this petition: ''We, the undersigned residents of Petit Forte and South East Bi~ht in the district of Placentia West present this petition to you and to the House of Assembly. We need a road. We have no intention of movin~ our homes or relocating under any circumstances. We have a way of life that we intend to protect and develop but a road is essential. If the fishery is to grow and develop in this part of Placentia Bay, in South East Bight and Petit Forte and Paradise,a road is necessary.

If we are to break out of our isolation we need easy access to medicine, doctors and a choice of work. Lack of a road should not deny us these rights which are enjoyed by all of our fellow Newfound­ landers and Canadians. We believe this to be a just and reasonable request,'' Mr. Speaker, I again.since 1972, have many times had this matter raised by my constituents out in Placentia Bay.

I was pleased last year to ~et a commitment'from government to have a road put through to the comm.unity of Monkstown which is probably even more isolated in wintertime than Petit Forte and South East Bight because of the fact that you have Paradise Sound freezing up so that at times the coastal boat cannot even get in there and for the greater part of the winter they are just cut off totally, This road is now well under way, Hr. Speaker. With respect to a road out to Petit Forte, 7181

November 28, 1974 Tape no. 1754 Page 1 - MW This is a more expensive, more costly project because a fair number of bridges may be required, at least this is my impression from looking at the map. It is difficult to see without actually travelling the country out there. Mr. Speaker, one concept that I have raised in discussions with Hr.

Jamieson, who is also the federal member for the district as well as being as you know the minister responsible for the Department of Regional and Economic Expansion, one concept that that minister has indicated an interest in is the concept of setting up a service centre for the fishermen in Placentia Bay. There are a considerable number of fishermen, not just from the communities of Petit Forte, South East Bight anfi Monkstovn but from communities such as Arnold's Cove, Placentia and other places in the district of the Hon.

Member for Placentia East, as well as places like Rushoon and Bane Harbour in my own district, where these people go out into Placentia Bay and make again a good living, fishing in the inshore fishery, A considerable amount of our inshore catch, Mr. Speaker, is obtained from Placentia Bay. Unfortunately, there are very primitive facilities out in the bay at the present time. After the ravages of resettlement, there was very little left out in Placentia Bay to provide services to fishermen when they go back there in the summertime.

This is why I have tried to tie in this concept of a service centre, a fishing service centre for Placentia Bay. Petit Forte seems to me to be an ideal location for that, Mr, Speakerl I suggested to Mr, Jamieson that possibly we can tie in some federal assistance for a road, call it a fisheries access road if one should wish to, tie in a road to Petit Forte, with a fishing service centre for the fishermen of Placentia West. I will continue to make representation to this effect, I have already requested the support of my colleague, the Provincial Minister of Fisheriaa, Mr.

Speaker I ask that this petition be tabled and referred ta the department to which it relates, 7182

November 28, 1974 Tape no. 1754 Page 2 t-m. WOODWARD: Hr. Speaker, we on this side of the House support the petition which was presented by the Member for Placentia West. It appears quite obvious that the minister has not had much dialogue with his constituents this summer, they are sending in petitions. MR. BARRY: To a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I suggest that a better inference might be this member instead of the one opposite doing a bit of work in his constituency. HR. WOODWARD: MR, BARRY: HR, WOODWARD: HR, BARRY: Is that a point of order, Mr. Speaker? Sit down? Sit dovn! (Inaudible). The point of order, Mr.

Speaker, is that the honourable member opposite is impugning my integrity, my reputation, Mr. Speaker, I have to violently protest this, If the honourable member should feel that he can do a better job, I welcome him to come down to Placentia West or the new district the next time around and run against me if he should feel so inclined. MR. WOODWARD: Mr. Speaker, is that a point of order? MR. ROBERTS: To that point of order, Mr. SP,eaker. First of all my colleague would not Yant to go to Placentia West. We have eighteen people at last count looking for the nomination to run against the honourable gentleman.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR, ROBERTS: Yes, Mr. Speaker, they are going to eat each other. The only other thing that is going to get eaten down there is the gentleman from Placentia West when he dares show his nose west of Swift Current or wherever the boundary begins. To that point of order, Mr, Speaker, let me say my colleague from Labrador North was not impugning the integrity of the honourable gentleman, who violently protested it.

If the honourable gentleman should feel that his integrity is being ravished, as it were, then all I can say is that his integrity is about as valuable in that instance as his virtue. I invite him to consider those remarks, 7183

November 28, 1974 Tape no. 1754 Page 3 MR, SPEAKER: There is really no point of order. It is a difference of opinion between two honourable members. MR, WOODWARD: Mr. Speaker, as I started to say, we on this side of the House support the petition. As I stated before, it is quite obvious that the minister has not had much dialogue with his constituents, They have sent him a number of petitions. I do not know if this is an indication that he has not visited the district during the recess of the House. This is all I want to make clear Mr. Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible), ~.

WOODWARD: We do indeed support roads, Listening to the policy of the Tory Administration and their new Minister of Transportation and Communications, as he indicated publicly through the media a few days ago as a matter of fact, a couple of weeks ago, that if we should get sufficient funds from the federal government in Ottawa that we will indeed be presenting a five year road paving programme and road reconstruction programme in this province.

What I vant to say, Mr, Speaker, is that I hope that the honourable minister gets in the good graces of his colleague, the Minister of Transportation and Communicationa,and can get some of 7184

November 28, 1974 Tape 1755 IB-1 tht> federal funds.in the event that they do r.et them to help to build those particular roads that his constituents are requesting. MR. BARRY: A point of order, Hr. Speaker. HR. WOODWARD: That is not a point of order. Sit down. MR, SPEAKER: Order, please: HR.. BARRY: A point of order. Without pushing this matter unduly, I would like to say, Hr. Speaker, t.hat it will be a sorry time if members are going to be criticized for bringing petitions before this honourable Hous12 in an attempt to bring matters of concern to their constituents before this honourable House.

If we are going to be subjected to the abuse such as we just heard, Mr. Speaker, I suggest that this honourable House, the activity and what we can accomplish is going to be severely impaired, MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I am sure the honourable minister is aware that it was not really a point of order which he had raised. Are their any other petitions? The honourable member for Twillingate. HR. GILLETTE: Mr. Speaker, may I take leave of the House to present a petition from the residents of Ragged Point which is a small settlement on Twillingate Island.

The prayer of the petition is that they have their roads paved. I anticipate many more petitions coming to me from the Twillingate area this winter particularly because of the fact that the paving equipment is there on the island and the people are naturally expecting to have their roads paved while that equipment is there. So, t would like to have this petition placed on the table and referred to the department to which it relates. We look forward to some action being taken this year completing the pavinµ of the roads in the Twillingate area. REPORTS OF STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES: HON. T.A.

HICKl'.All (MINISTER OF JUSTICE): Hr. Speaker, I table the report of the Commission of Enquiry into certain matters pertaining to welfare and the disposition of DOSCO assets on Bell Island, Newfoundland, part one and presented by the commissioner, the honourable Mr. Justice Arthur ~ifflin. This report has already been distributed to honourable members 7185

November 28, 1974 Tape 1755 IB-2 and the public. I do it simply as a matter of record. NOTICE OF MOTION: MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask the House to consider a resolution approving, with alterations, the recommendations of the Newfoundland Electoral Districts Boundaries Commission established by Section (4) of the Electoral Boundaries Elimination Act, ·1973. ml, HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the following Bills: A Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Securities Act". A Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Emergency Measures Act 0 • A Bill, 0

An Act To Amend The Condominium Act". A Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Attachment Of Wages Act". A Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Commissioner For Oaths Act". On behalf of my colleague, the honourable the Minister of Transportation and Communications; a Bill, "An Act To Amend The Motorized Snow Vehicles And All Terrain Vehicles Act". HON. DR, A.T. ROWE (MINISTER OF HEAITH): Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce into this House

an Act Respecting The Newfoundland Medical Association And Governing The Practice Of Medicine In The Province. HR. CROSBIE: Hr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave of the House to introduce a Bill being

an Act To Provide A Pension - not for myself unfortunately, Mr, Speaker, but for the last President of the Newfoundland Federation of Fishermen and for other purposes. HON. H.R.V. E.ARLE (MINISTER OF FINANCE): Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave of the House to introduce the following Dills: "An Act Further To Amend The Income Tax Act. 11 "An Act Further To Amend The Financial Administration Act, 1973"; and 1 'An Act To Amend The Increase of Pensions Act, 1974". }ffi. BARRY: On behalf of the honourable Minister of Social Services - ?-m. SPEAKER: Order, please! I am sure the honourable minister 7186

Novemher 28, 1074 TanP. l7Sfi PK - 1 on l0 el->111f of tliP Hon. Minister of C:ocinl ~Prvices. HR. SPF:.AJ~pp: Order. Please! AN HO!i. ~ff'.!'(BF'R ~ TnaudH-le. HR, SPEAKEP,: Order, nlense! I nm sure the honourahle rnernher iR aware - AN HON. ME!-fBFJ?: tnaudih1£". AN HON • MEMBET:!: He will learn! He wi 11 learn! tm. BARRY: Hr. Sneaker, I pive notice thnt twill on tomorrow nsk leave tn :fntrorluce t!.e following hills'. /> hill. ''An Act Further To Amend The Children Of Unmarried Parents Act, 1 °72, A Hll, "An Act Further To Amend The Adoption Of Children Act, 1972. . A h:f ll, .,An Act Further To Amend The rhild Uelfare Act, 1972," A bill,

An Act Further To Amend The Social A,:;s:h;-tance Act, 1971, A hill, t<An Act To Amend The nenartment Of Social Services Act. 1973. 11 ANfitffiRS TO OUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE IIAS BEml GIVEN \fl'.. SPF.AKER: The Hon. Minister of Pealth. HON. DR. A. T?OHF (MINISTER OF l!F.ALTH}: I her, leave to t.a.hle in the honourable Eouse the im~wer to the follmJ"1.ng quest:fons on the nrdP:r Paper: Ouestion No, 123: Ouei::tion l!o, lFJ· OueRtion No, 11/i; nuestion No. 113: Question No. 112: Ouestion No. h7: OueAtion no. li6: Question No. M; OueRtion No. 63: Question No. 62: 11nd nue,;tion No. fi.5.

AN HON'. t.rmtBE'P.: Fle1td thPm, AN HON, H'E}fBER ! r.ould the minister p.ive the numbers? DR. nnwr:: t Rave them. First No, 65 - May 15: No. M: of Hav 15: No. fi3 of }-I.av 15: No, F.4 nf Mav 15: ~ro. M', of }Iay 1.5: Mo. f.7 of 1'-fay 15: No. 112 of 6th. of June: No, 113. lith. of June: No. 114, Fith. of Jum~: No. 119, fith. of June :ind N'o, 121. 0RAL OUF:!:Ttnrrn: \!R. SPEAKFR: The Hon, !,fernber for Bell IR land.

Hr, Fnenker, 1 k""Onder if I could direct n nuestion to the !-finister of Municipal Affaits and Houdnp;. \<°nuld the minister indfoatP. to the HouM t-,hl'm he i.ntendR to malre public thP) Henley Urhan Region Report? 718/

?!overnhPr 28. l n74 Tape 1756 PK - ? "ffi. SPFAl".FR: The Hon. t.f:fnister of }1unici.oal Affairs and Jlomdnr;. Hn~. A. n. PFCKF'nRn ("'lNISTrR OF HUNTCIPAL AFFAIRS AND HOUSINI:) ~ l--!r. Sneaker, that is the first nhase of the report I think he is referrin11 to that WR!'l nreAented n veek or two weeYs ago, I expect, Pr. Sneakl'.'r, that rcnnrt uil) he rc>ndv to be released to the nublic sometime next week nftP-r t have the c:on,:;ent of my colleaRUeR, im, NEARY: vr, Sneaker, I wonder if the President of Treasury Board would 1.nform the House if the _goverrunent's redundancv policy has been implemented?

And if so, if any emnlovees of the rovernrnent has had serves tenninated? If so, has the nirector - ~r. Sneaker, I am askin~ a oueRtion of the President of the Treasury noard, Sir and he has not manners enouJrh to listen to MR, SPf:.AKF'll: flrder, rilease'. MR, NF.ARY: no not be so rude! no not he RO rude: MR. SPF:AKFP: Order, nlease: AN HON. \fFJfJU'l'l: Let him control himself. ~- NEA~Y: MR, DOODY: ~rn. NF.ARY: I am controllinp. myself. He wns Ufl too lBte last niRht. Ho. I ni11 have to reuent the oue!'l:tion, Mr. Speaker.

Would the m1n1Ater inform the House if thP. rrovernment 's redundancy pol:fcv has vet been irnnlemented? If so, hov many emnlovees h:tve been ternina.ted under th:f,R r,oUcy? fffi. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Finance. '-fP. EARLE: Hr. Sreaker, I will accept that as not tee of question. 7188

November 28, 1974. Tape 1757 RH - 1 QUESTIONS: HR. S. NEARY= Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the President of Treasury Board could tell us if Mr. Nutbeam has yet unwound the Confederation Celebrations, if he is still on the payroll? Has he been terminated? If he is still on the payroll, what job is he doing right now? It is certainly a redundant position. MR. J. CROSBIE: Accepted as notice of question. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Provincial Affairs.

I would like to ask the Minister of Provincial Affairs what steps his department have taken to implement the recommendations of the food prices review board that fall under provincial jurisdiction! HR. SPEAKER: The Minister of Provincial Affairs and Environment. MR. G. DAWE: At this point, Mr. Speaker, we are intensely studyin~ the report. Any recommendations in it, there are some good recommendations indeed, recommendations which will definitely help the comsumers of this Province, help reduce the cost of living in the Province will certainly be implemented. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I am not satisfied with that answer given by the Minister of Provincial Affairs, Sir, and under the rules of the House, Sir, I wish to debate the matter later on this afternoon. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Bonavista North, MR. P. THOMS: Mr, Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Tourism. Could the Minister of Tourism inform this honourable House if it is correct that the Confederation Celebrations cost this Province between $5 million and S6 million? "fR, SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Tourism. HON. T. HICKEY: (First

part inaudible,) That information, I assume is either ~uilty of wishful! thinkinR or they had a bad dream. That is about how far out they are, Mr. Speaker. HR. THOMS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Could the honourable minister inform this honourable House if there are any members of the Confederation celebration Committees still on the payroll? Mil. HICKEY: I think, Mr. Speaker, I should take that question under 7189

November 28, 1974. Tape 1757 RH - 2 advisement. I could attempt to answer it but I am not quite sure that I could answer it accurately. I would rather check it out, I have certain information that I could give but certainly it would only be in part, I would rather get all of the details. MR. THOMS: The honourable member will have the answer tomorrow? MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, this is a poor way to start off the session. I did not say that. MR. THOMS: I say, will the honourable member have the answer tomorrow? Will he have the answer tomorrow? MR, HICKEY: Mr.

Speaker, the honourable gentleman will get the information as soon as I can get it. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for St. Barbe North. MR. F, ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a question to the Minister of Education. Thursday, the minister agreed with his colleague, the Minister of Fisheries, that the school boards are to blame for the present controversy and lack of understanding by the public with regard to the school tax authority proposals being proposed at the present time in the St. John's areas, It was carried by news reporters on CJON dinner­ time. MR. CROSBIE: On a point of order, Hr.

Chairman. MR. SPEAKER: Order 1 please! Order 1 please! MR. CROSBIE: I have made no such statement. I cannot see how the honourable gentleman could be asking a question about it. The honourable gentleman should wait until Sunday afternoon at five o'clock when he will hear me in person on" Issues and Answers 11 say exactly what I said. MR. ROWE: I heard the honourable the minister and that was enough, I do not want to see him on Sunday afternoon. I will rephrase the question, Mr. Speaker.

Does the Minister of Education agree with the Minsiter of Fisheries, and I cannot understand why he is speaking out on matters of education, does he ap,ree with the Minister of Fisheries that the school boards should have given more publicity or should have put on an advertising campaign to publicize and explain the school tax authorities proposals? 7190

November 28. 1974. Tape 1757 AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROWE: The minister agrees. The Minister of Fisheries - MR, CROSBIE: I agree entirely. RH - 3 MR. ROWE: He agrees. In other words, the Minister of Fisheries agrees with the concept of taking the taxpayers money to explain to the people of Newfoundland how to get more money out of them. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MP:. ROWE: ts that correctt Mr. Speaker? MR. W. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member is enterin~ into the realm of debate and is making imputations inconsistent with - he is entirely out of order. MR.

ROWE: Mr, Speak.er, I submit I was asking a question. I was not debating. I asked the Minister of Fisheries and the Minister of Education, since the Minister of Fisheries decided to enter into the debate. It was the Minister of Fisheries who was debating, not this honourable member. I asked the honourable Minister of Education if he agreed with the concept of spending the taxpayers' money to explain to them hw they are goini to collect further taxes from them. MR. SPEAKER: The Minister of Education, 7191

November 28, 1974 Tape no. 1758 Page 1 - MW HON. r.. OTTENHEIHER (Minister of Education): Mr. Speaker, I would question whether that question is in order, I understand that the purpose of questions is to ask a minister an explanation of government policy or to ask him what is government policy in a particular respect, not to ask him if he should agree with this or that or if somebody may have said that or reputed to have said that. As I understand it, it is a srecf:k question W"ith respect to government policy. I would submit that that kind of questioning is out of order. '1R.

SPEAKER: tam sure the Hon. 'iember for St. Barbe North is aware that the purpo,o;e of the question period is really to ask questions that demand and require an immediate ans~er and is of urgent importance, I suspect that his question really to the minister did not require an immediate and an urgent answer. !1R. F, B, ROWE: I respect your ruling, Mr. Speaker, but I thought that in view of the bussing controversy presently existing that it certainly might be a relatively urgent question. I have a question for the Hon. Minister of Fisheries. ~r.

Speaker, because of the fact that I am getting so many inquiries from my district, I would like to ask the minister if he still intends to get the compensation payments out to the fishermen for loss of gear experience<: duri.nr; the early part of the fishing season and whether these payments will be made by the end of December as he indicated to me in some correspondence,because I am still getting a fair volume of mail in that respect1 I am also getting a fair volume of mail indicating that the fisheries' personnel are not getting around and asking - MR. MARSHALL: To a point of order, Hr. Speaker.

The question period is for the purpose of asking questions. They cannot be prefixed by opinion; they cannot be prefixed or suffixed or what have you by remarks and comments. If the honourable member should uish to ask a question, let him ask a question. There are others of us who may wish to ask questions of ministers on this side of the House as well. We only have thirty minutes. 719£'.

November 28, 1974 Tape no. 1758 Page 2 "iR. F. B, ROWE: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I can understand the House Leader's anxiety, Mr. Speaker, but I was just trying to explain the situation to the Minister of Fisheries to enable him to answer the question It was just a matter of ten or fifteen seconds, I do not know what the Hon. House Leader is so edgy about. KR. SPEAKER: Order please! I think it has been stated many times that oral questions should be very precise and to the point, I feel too that the honourable member was having a

preamble of some length before he reached his question. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, it was an excellent point that our House Leader brought up. He is an astute parliamentarian, very, very, astute, The answer to the fi.rst part of his question - he does not want the answer? I do not think so, Mr, Speaker, The answer to the first part of his question is that I have not been informed of anything that shoulJ di.srupt that. The honourable gentleman knows the plan waR first to replace the gill nets and so on for the men who could get back fishing this year.

That should practically be over, A few people may have been missed. There nrc a number of claims coming in, It was widely announced, I beljeve 15,000 fishermen were sent letters advising them that they had to have their claims in, I think it vas by September 1, There are still i,nmc claims coming in from the people who claim they did not know about that date. They are being reviewed now. Then the plan is to deal with salmon nets and lobster pots because their season was already over. It was too late for them to get back into that fishery.

That is underway now and cod traps during the winter,so that everybody will have their gear replaced by the spring. Now I am not been informed if there is going to be any other delay. My reply in my letter to the honourable gentleman 719.:l

November 28, 1974 Tape no. 1758 Page 3 should still be accurate. However, I will check and see,tO make sure that that is still the case. That was the first part of his question. The second part of his question I will answer this way and say that I have had more correspondence from the honourable gentleman - where is it he is from? AN HON, MEMBER: St. Barbe North. MR. CROSBIE: St. Barbe North. I have had more correspondence from the honourable gentleman than any other member. I trust that I am keeping him happy with the flow back, There is a constant flow back. MR. SPEAKER: Before I recognize the Hon.

Member for St, Barbe North, I will allow an extra few minutes for the question period, According to our new rules, what we commonly refer to as the late show,at 5:30 P.M. on Thursdays, I am supposed to inform the House what questions will be debated by 4:00 P,H. on Thursday, The question period was in progress and I did not want to interrupt the honourable members. For today I have one question just passed to me before 4:00 P,M, by the Hon. Member for Bell Island who wishes to debate the question asked of the Minister of Provincial Affairs and Environment. This is the one question which will be debated today. MR.

F. B. ROWE: I thank the Hon. Minister of Fisheries for his concise answer, Mr. Speaker. Could the Minister of Education inform this honourable House, Mr. Speaker, as to what happened to the Harris Report on Education, Youth and Human Resources! Was it buried, cremated or was it aborted? What happened to that particular report? MR, OTTENHEIMER: Hr. Speaker, it has been received and is being studied. It has been the source of certain policy changes, 7194

Novr!rmhP.r ?.B • 1974 '1'aT1e 1759 That a1nnp_ with other :fnformntion and other recommendations that the department has will he Part of the tvpe of rPferencc for various develonments in the aren of education. PK - 1 HR. F._ POWE: A sunolffll'lentary. Mr. Spealeer. It has not hecn made nuhlic T take it, '-'r. Sneaker? It wHl he tabled in the Fouse, this particular renort? "MR. SPFA.:~ Th~ Pon. '-'iniRter of F:ducation, ~J'JiHF:!llrP: :fn the Hom1e • ~--1r. Roealcer. yes I see no reason not to have it tabled . ~fR. F. ROWF: Could the m:fn1ster give a definite commitment, \fr, Speaker, on thAt particular point?

"ffi. OTTENHEIMfR: Yes, as n matter of fact I think I have said nreviouely that I am will:ln~ to table H in the Houne. ~rn.. ROWE: When? "fR, OTTF!"-l'J1F:IMER: Within the near future. }ffi, TI:OHE ! Could he be a Httle more precise, "'fr, Sneaker? im. SPEARF:'R: The Hon, ~{ember for Rt. John I s North. lfR, J. A, CAPTER: T have a ouestion for the ~inister of ~unicipal Affairs and Housinr..

In tht> TM.tt~r of e.xpropr:fatton of privatA homes under his 1urisdiction, uill the minister asRure this House that the princinle to he annlied in nward:tnr, connemmtion idll he renlacement cost rather market value? _hfR. !:PEAKFR: The Hon. '-finister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. ttR, PF'.CKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, that is a nrohlem that the department ia pre.FH!ntlv 1001':inn :f.nto. '·Then ,.,,.e have some rlefinitfve policy on the matter tie nhall inform the honourahle member anrl the honourahle House on it. 1 c:annot assure him of anvthinp; elRe Rt thiR ttme,only when we have looked nt it again and made un our mjnds on it. we vill let hi~ know, MR. SPFAKRP.: The Hon. Hember for Bonavista North, HR. P. S. THOHS: ~r. Sp~nYer, I would like to direct a Question to the Hon. ttfoister of Municina:1 AffairR and ffousinq.

Could the minister inform this Houae H he has suonlied the Burnside Water Committee w:1.th $20,000 th11t t.•as prom:f,r;ed them in Jun?? Hq, SPEAJl'ER: The Pon. "l:fohter of ttunicinal Affairs and HousinR, HR. P. S, TH0~5: Promised them hy letter. noes he want a cony of it? 7195

Novemher 2B. 1974 Tane 1759 PK - 2 ~fll. SPF.AYFR: Order, Please! MR. PEr:KFmm: ""r. Sneaker, can I be nermitted to answer the honourablP. "'femher for Ronav::1.~tn }!orth, H he would .1ust keep quite for a second. MR., P, S. THOMS: tf his own - HR, SPFJ..KF'.tl: ! Order, nlease! ~(R.

PF.CKFO~n: •.-:r, Sneaker, this whole matter of the Burnside thing was gone over v1th the fedPral member for the area of C,ander/Twillingate, under which Burnl'lide comes, Tt Pa!':I Rone over with the peonle, the water crnnrn:f.ttee of Brum;ide and the decision was made, The honourable mP.mber is 'Well aware of what thnt decision is. based on the Climate., the time of the year and so on regarding these funds, The Community of Burnside were informed ,1hout the s20,nno earlv in the RUfflmP.r.

Thev were later informed by letter that th:fR monev would no longer he thP:fri<; hecause they had not tnken advnntnre of it under the condit:f.ons laid dmm hv the denarttTtent. So as it stand/'! right n0'-1. the Commmitv of Burm;ide will not receive, the $20,000 that wns nllocRted earlier 1n the vear fr,r lep;itimatP i:mund reasonR, as the T'leofllP of Burnsd:fe are TIO,,. nui ti'> fatTtilinr ,"1th, and thP TT1e.mher of t1arliaf!lent for Gander/Tr.Ji] 1 inPatP totnllv avrecR with the decision tah,n hy the department. The hononrahle HembP.r for 'f\fdl lffland. Mp. ~PF.AKFll: ~tp, HF.ARY: Mr.

SneakP-r, for the third time I am p;oinr; to ask the Pinister of t 1:lnes nnr.l Fnergv"nnrl for the th:frri time in as manv vears, I m:lght 1:;ay, Sir, uhen the neonle of Rell Island can exnect to receive thP hp~efits of a surnlus of S35,non as has heen accumulated in the minister's denartment nnrl i.n the 'fo1->foundl,md and L;ihrnrlor Homdnp; r:orunration?

This $35.r:inn TF!aults from rentah of houses and sale of no~r:n ns1'!-ets, Would the miniRter inform the Hou1,e 1,ihen thP p;overnment intend to rliRtrihutP: this amount of money to tl-ie neonle of TielJ Ti::hmd. ~- SPFAKFP: Thp Hon, '{fn1Ater of "-f:fne!'I anrl Fnerp,v. "'"R. BARPY: µr. Sne,1ker, a!'I I mentioned the last time the Hemher for Rell Ti;land asl·eil this qUP!'lt:i:on originally.rip.ht at the present time there are funrls in hoth the St. John's Housing Cornorat:lon and poRsibly i;till some :l.n the NP.Wfoundlnnd and Lnhrnrlor Hous:lnr C'ornoration.

I trrote ai:rnin .1uFJ:t a littll" over a veek ap,o to p,et their nosition on the final amountR. 7196

!fovt!mher :ZR, 1°74 'rane 17SQ PK - 1 The funds that uPnt into thP St, John's Housing rorooration~ T hn:ve to confe~s, is one of these MV!'.l:teriPs that we hnve rtm1aining idth ur:; from thP lni'!t admlnifitrntton. T do not knnv whv the rnoru~y ever went into t\-1e St. John 1 t. Housinr, 719/

November 28, 1974 Tape 1760 IB-1 Corporation. At the time the honourable member was in government. He and his colleagues were in the administration. Mr. Vardy, O.L. Vardy, at the time, I believe, had something to do with the direction of the funds to this corporation. Not knowing the gentlemen and not havinp; anything to do with them, I do not know the reason why it went to the St. John's Housing Corporation. Our position is, Mr. Speaker, that any funds that remain after the homes that are now being rented on Bell Island have been renovated and brought up to acceptable standards - one second, Mr.

Speaker, if I might finish - this work may be finished now and this was the purpose of my last letter to the Housing Corporation,to find this out. Once the Housing Corporation has finished its llOrk, if there are funds remaining, then it is my intention to bring to cabinet a proposal with respect to the surplus funds. I am sure that I can say without any hesitation, Mr. Speaker, that it will be this government's view that the people of Bell Island should get the benefit of the funds remaining. Mr. Speaker, these funds will go through proper channels. Mr.

Speaker 1 I would say that if any funds go, if any surplus funds remain, they vill go through the normal channels, through the Town Council of Wabana or any other properly set up organization that is in a position to receive them. Mr. Speaker, the first thing we have to determine is just what the surplus is or will be once these renovations are completed. At that time I will then have further information for the honourable member. MR. ~EARY: I thank the honourable minister for his answer. Now, Sir, t wonder if I could direct a question to the Minister of Education.

Would the Minister of Education inform the House if a bulldozer that was removed from the Bell Island District Vocational School over almost a year ago.by Mr. Bernard Fitzpatrick, former Tory candidate in the district of Bell Island, has yet been returned to the school? HR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker 1 I will have to say that I obviously will have to check and see where the exact placement of a bulldozer at the vocational school at Bell Island is. Quite frankly t do not know. I 7198

November 28, 1974 Tape 1760 IB-2 should say that there is - because there is a certain close to inference there that there is a policy with respect to equipment at any district vocational school. That is that it is available to a person in private enterprise outside of the district vocational school if it is properly insured and the rate of remuneration is set which covers the expenses involved in presumably a certain amount of wear and tear. This is applied universally and this is only after and if the school does not have use for it for that period of time.

As to the particular location of that bulldozer now, I will have to undertake to find out and let the honourable gentleman know tomorro\.1, !-fR. NEARY: I thank the minister,and the minister "1ill provide the !louse with the information tomorrow. Now, Sir, I would like to direct a question to the honourable the Premier.

Now that "1e have a brand new ferry, Sir, just arrived in Newfoundland, operating between Bell Island and Portugal Cove - I made the maiden trip on her today on her maiden voyage - would the Premier inform the House what steps his government is taking to provide the people of Bell Island with free ferry service as promised by the Premier in two provincial general elections, by making the Bell Island tickle, the ferry service between Bell Island and the Mainland a part of our provincial road network? HR. MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, the situation is on Bell Island as with the other ferries in the province and as well as, for that matter, the desirability of having this ferry service from Sydney to the island of Newfoundland being considered as part of the road network - I would like to think that between the federal government and ourselves that all these ferry services could be corrected as soon as possible, Referring to the one on Bell Island, the need is there. The need is great and certainly ve will do all possible to fulfill that cormnitment. HR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Premier would answer another question for me.

Would the Premier indicate if the answer to my letter that I wrote to the Premier recently inviting the cabinet to hold their next cabinet meeting on Bell Island, if the answer will be in the affirmative

Novenber 28, 1974 Tape 1760 IB-3 or in the negative? MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, the next cabinet meeting, as was announced somewhat previously, is going to be in Gander. Certainly the invitation, the request to have a meeting on Bell Island will ~e taken into consideration because we would like to go to as many parts of the province as we can and certainly Bell Island would be one of them. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, before I get away from Bell Island, I wonder if the Minister of Justice, now that I have been cleared of any wrong­ doing in the welfare part, first phase of the Mifflin Report, now that I have been completely exonerated - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR, NEARY: Would the minister indicate to the Rouse - HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! }ffi. NEARY: Would the minister indicate to the House - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. HICKEY: To a point of order - in 7200

~ovemher 28, 1974. Tape 1761 RH - I that statement.,he reflects on my character and the char~es that I made in the House. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. HICKEY: The honourable gentleman from Bonavista North laughs. If we want to take this report and go through it page by page, the laugh will be on the other side of his face. Now if the honourable gentle­ man wants to do that, lmenever the honourable gentleman wants to do that - MR. THOMS: That is not a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. HICKEY: Yes, it is a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

The point of order is that the honourable member for Bell Island in making the statement as he has made outside this chamber which I have really no control over but Your Honour has control over every word he says in this House. He now makes that statement in the House again wherein he says he has been cleared. He has not been cleared, Mr. Speaker. He has been found guilty by that commission report. I ask him further, Mr. Speaker, to resign, MR. NEARY: MR. HICKEY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: MR. HICKEY: On that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Resign. Order, please! On that point of order, Mr, Speaker. Resign, MR.

NEARY: Speaking to that point of order, Sir. That ~utleaa wonder from St, John's East Extern has done it again, Sir, and I demand that Your Honour, ask that scum - HR. HICKEY: On a point of order, Mr, Speaker. HR. NEARY: Your Honour ask the scum: from St, John's East Extern to retract that statement that I am not ~uilty, Sir. lam not ~utlty of any wron~doing and that scum, that scum, Sir, that rotten scum - HR. SPEAKER: Order! Will the honourable member for Bell Island - MR. NEARY: Should retract his statement, MR. SPEAKER: Will the honourable member for Bell Island ploaae ~•k• hio seat?

The point of order raised by the Minister of Tourism: I feel 7201

November 28, 1974. Tape 1761 RH - 2 the debate is a difference of opinion between two honourable members. However the remarks _1ust made, some words and remarks made by the honourable member for Bell Island a moment ago, certainly are unpar­ liamentary and I would ask him to retract them. AN HONOURABLE MEYBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Hickey is guilty. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I was in the process of directing a question to the Minister of Justice, MR. ROBERTS: This is your thing, Tom baby, not mine. MR.

NEARY: I was asking the Minister of Justice, Sir, now that I have been completely cleared, completely exonerated of any wrongdoing - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. NEARY: What is happening to the - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The honourable member for Bell Island is referring to an instance already dealt with and he is entering into a long

preamble in asking a question. If he has a question I suggest that he ask it and be very precise. MR. NEARY: What happens in the phase (2) of the report, that is all I want to know, Sir. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, phase (2) of the rei,ort of the ,1udicial inquiry into matters on Bell Island deals with the Dosco assets and it has been indicated to me by Mr. Justice Mifflin that he seriously doubts that he is going to have the time to be able to direct his attention to it but when he arrives at that conclusion he will form.ally advise me. I have not yet heard from him. HR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I have one fin.al question for the Minister of Manpower. I guess it is. The Government of Canada, Sir, hes made available another gift to the Province of $2.5 million for retraining the chronically u~employed, AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: $3.5 million. MR. NEARY: $3.5 million? Excuee me, Sir, $3.5 million to the Province to try to retrain the chronically unemployed. Woul4 the minister care to tell the House what kind of a programme his government intend: to implement 7202

November 28, 1974. Tape 1761 RH - 3 to retrain the chronically unemployed? Have any plans yet been determined on this? Would the minister care to inform the House of Wat the plans are? HR. E. MAYNARD: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I cannot outline the plans but I can say that the federal and provincial people who are responsible for manpower and responsible for the administration of the programme are meeting today and tomorrow to iron out the details of the programme.

The only thing that has been given to us at this time is that there is going to be $3.5 million available and it will be left up to the federa1/ provincial committee that is meeting over the next two days to iron out the specific details of how the money will he used. MR. A. MURPHY: May t inform the House a bit further on that? Sir, durin~ my recent visit to Ottawa this matter was broached by Mr. Andras, the Minister of Martpower and Immigration - MR. NEARY: On a point of order. Your Honour, I asked 7203

Tape 1762 PK - l l~r. Andrai-s. the HiniRter of l.fanpown and TmmiitrAtion. ~. NEARY: nn 11 rrnint of order, Your Ponour. I asked the Minister of "1mnoner 11 nue-Rtion. Sir, now the 1finister of Social Servfces "t-.1<1.ntR to r.et ur to mnl0 e a aneech. So do we all have the same privilep.:e, Sir? nut in the meantime if the mi.nister wnnts to make a Rneech I w:fll ask h:fm a mtestion.

Poulcl the l'linister inform the House how much of the $6.5 million increase in 5ocial assistance nrop,ramme he announced this afternoon - hop Much of that $1;. 5 mill:fon comes from the Government of Cn.nada? ~RPPY: '!R. 'l'!EARY: nh my what a lea.dim; oueRt:fon. f1h, I see. No mention - Fifty per cent. >..-fr', SPF.AKER: nrder, please! \ffl. K!Hl:PHY: im. NF.ARY_:~ HP 1'-flT'PPHY: Divide Sfi,500,0()0 hv 2 and you will arrive at - There is no mention in that statement ahout the ftftv ner cent.

T would asl· the press and anybody present if it irould nut a by-line, Hr. ~1urnhv Rnvs "That half of this is cominR from Ottaw'<l,"' •-m.!....!~TRPHY: }ffi. !lFA~Y· HR. MHRPHY: Good. Tt is not a neu nrocedure. It is not out of his mm pocket. It has heen accented for many. On the :fnsti~ation of the "-femher for Rell Island, I uill not u~e any other terms? just ~ember for Hell Island, that is inserted there. Hut if the House would like, S:ir, and I t1ou]d verv much lil~e in connection with this l'!anpower thinR notwithstanding the •femher for Bf?lJ Il'>lnnd. when in nttaPa }fr.

Andras announced this prnp;ra'!lfflle of S3.S mHlinn nnd throup,h my urRini being- a r,ood Minister of Welfare and Social ft.m;istance, one-third of that monev, Sir, will be srient not only on the chronicallv unemployed but on the chronic noor guy who has been on welfare for vears cannot even get unemnloyment insurance. One-third of that - What a Liheral r.overnmP.nt up in Ottawa. A p.rMt Liberal r.overnment. im. H1JltPHY: i!"i for train:inrt and retraining. A p;re;it Liberal Government in Ottawa and if we can keen him there and keep him as far away from tle'wfoundland the better off we are goinR to be, Sir.

Thanl'.S, 7204

Eovemher 28, 1974 Tane 1762 PK - 2 u~. ROflFRTS: Hr-fore we go tnto orders mav- I aak leave under Standinr. Order 73. I believe this f.p; the annronriate moment to raise it, to move the adiournrnent of the i-l'ouse to discuss a definite matter of urgent ouhlic jmnortance, namelv: the nresent crisis in the f!Ahinp, industry. The crisis, Of course, affects everv oart of the industry but it is narticul11rlv urgent and narticularly seriou,; with reference to the trnvler hrrned operations alonp; the South Coa!'lt of th!?

Island of New­ foundlnnd. t do have a statement here for Your Honour, Sir. and in view of the fonhiHty,for the rem:mn which he exnlninerl,of the 1-linister of Fisheries to tell ui:; earlfer that ue could have a debate on this, this is now the only nrocedure open to us so I ask leave to make thiR motion now. ~- CROSBIE: Hr. Sneaker, as Your Honour ¥'now,;, Your Honour has to decide whethP.r, in :tccordance with Beauchesne, this iR a matter of urgency or debate or not, and not whether there is a critical condition nrevailing in the country or not. Mi''" RO:BFRTS ~ The ur~encv of the debate.

HR, CROSBIE: The urgency of the debate. Nov, Hr. ~neaker, there is no urR:ency for such a debate in this House today. As a matter of fact, ~r. Speaker, when the honourable the Premier anpointed me as Hi.ntster of Fisheries, the honourable Rentleman oooosite thoug:ht ~o little of thP. fisher,tes that he said, it wits a demotion and thnt T hrtve heen 110001.nted to some minor ooet. ~}{~--~~:.. Inaudihle. MR. CROSBir: ijecau,;e the honourable gentleman did not think much of the fi,;hery and thou~ht that it Hae unimportant to this nrovince.

Yet today because he thinkR there is some kind of crisis in the industry he moves this motion which he knows will he ruled out of order. '1"r.

Sneaker. in Beauchesne, haA:e 89 i,The "definite matter of urge-nt nuhlic importance" for which the adjournment of the House mav be moved ••• 1 ' It goes on in Beauchesne, "It must be so pressinR thAt. nnh1ic interest will suffer if it is not Riven i.mmediate attention by debate in the Hou11e. '' On nnge QO, "UrRency'' within this rule does not annly to the matter itself, hut :ft means ··urp;encv of the debate", when the ordinary ormortunit1nfl orovirled hv the ruleA of the Fouse do not nerm:tt thA nuh,1ect to he brought on earlv 7205

Hovemher 78, 1974 Tane 1762 PK - 3 enour,h and nublic interest demands that discussion take nlace immediatelv.n Thnt iB not the Position here todav, Mr. Speaker, we are just starting now a session thnt is ro:f.ng to last several weekR. Private ~emher's Dny iB next Pednesdav, the honnun1ble p,entlernan can nut a motion doPn for Private Memher's Dav if he wishes.

In addition, J would like to refer to the middle of pa~e QO, 'The nd1onrnrnent of the House cannot he moved t1ith reference to critical conditions genernllv nrevniling in certain parts of the countrv and so on,' Hr, Speaker, the Housr'! well knows that the r.overnment of Canada and the Gove.rnment of Newfoundland at this ver:v moment apT>ointed on November 1B, h11ve a committee of ton officials of both p,ove-.rnrnents studylng the Dr, Harris' s P.eport on the: trawler fishing industrv generally. 7206

November 28. 1974 Tape 1763 Ill-I that they are to bring recommendations in by December 15th.that the matter is well in hand. I therefore submit, for all these reasons, Mr. Speaker, that you should rule this motion out of order. MR. ROBERTS: If I may speak to that point. I quite agree with the honourable gentleman - indeed his point is not nev, it is well established - that the only question to be considered by Your Honour at this stage in this procedure is the question of urgency of debate. I do not think there is any problem of the definite matter part of it.

That has been sufficiently established, I submit, in the motion. The question of urgency of debate, Sir - I submit that unless this procedure, in which Your Honour rules that it is an urgent matter and allows debate to proceed according to the procedure in our rules, that there will be no debate.

Let me deal first, very briefly, with the private members' point, There are, on the Order Paper, Sir, eight private members' motions, two of which do deal with the fisheries, one standing in the name of the gentleman from Bonavista South dealing specifically with the Hamilton Banks, the other, a more general motion, dealing with the fisheries in general, moved by my colleague the gentleman from Fogo, Sir, there are four motions which must be heard, three which must be discussed before either of those can be, due to the fact we took the entire last part of this session, six months, to deal with just two motions.

I do not think that the urgency of debate need will be met by the Private Members' Day. one day a week. Indeed the government deliberately choose to have the House meet Thursday so they could avoid a Private Members' Day. That is why we are meeting today and not yesterday or the day before. As far as urgency other than that, Sir, goes, I submit that no matter is more urgent, The government have refused to give us a debate on the Uarris Report. They have announced they are going to table it, t ast~ed if we could have a debate but they refused it - ?tR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, a point of order.

That is a deliberate misstatement of £act. HR. ROBERTS: Mr, Speaker, do I have the floor? 7201

November 28, 1974 Tape 1763 IB-2 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: Do t have the floor, Your Honour? MR. CROSBIE: In other words, it is a damned lie. HR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I am speaking to a point of order, I cannot be interrupted. Mr. Speaker, I am speaking to a point of order. The only person who can interrupt a gentleman speaking to a point of order is Your Honour. Now, the honourable gentleman said what I said was a damned lie. Well, I say, in that case, Sirt he is a damned liar because what I said and I will say again - MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, a point of order. HR. ROBERTS: Hr.

Speaker, I cannot be interrupted. The honourable gentleman from Placentia West - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: To a point of order, Mr. Speaker. NR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I am speaking to a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: The Chair recognizes the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Will Your Honour enforce Your Honour'• ruling? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The Chair recognizes the honourable Leader of the Opposition who is now speaking to a point of order. MR. BARRY: But one cannot break the rules of the House under guise of a point of order. HR. ROBERTS: Hr.

Speaker, I am glad to hear the gentleman for Placentia West say that we cannot break the rules of the House under guise of a point of order, He has developed that part to a very high peak. Now, Sir, as I was saying ~ith respect to the point of order. The government have refused to give us, the House, a debate on this question of the fishery. They may t0t1.orrow change their mind. They may change their mind in two seconds but as of this moment in time - I asked them earlier in a question and the Miniater of Fiaheries said he could not say he would have to consult.

Nothine has happened since, As of this point, they have refused. So, I say that there i& urgency of 7208

Nove."!tber 28, 1974 Tape 1763 IB-3 the subject matter. I say that unless the matter can 1-e debated now, there is no opportunity to debate it in this session. No bill has been given notice under which it would properly fall. The Private Members practice will not suffice in this instance, Indeed it is farcical to suggest it. I say that if the miniatery will not permit this, Sir, assmning Your Honour rules it in order, it will be contemptuous of them and will show their contempt for the problems of the fishery. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, if I could just respond before you rule there, ~r.

Speaker, Private Members' Day already has a motion that applies to the fishery on it, set down. When the question was asked Earlier today, I said I would have to consult with my colleagues as to whether a debate can be arranged in the fisheries. The point, Hr. Speaker, today is that what would be the point of a debate on the fishery today when tomorrow honourable gentleman are going to be provided with a copy of the Conciliation Board Report reporting on this very situation. What would the benefit of a debate even tomorrow, Mr. Speaker, until honourable gentlemen had a chance to peruse the report?

So, for all of those reasons - it does not fall within the rules as being an urgent matter to be debated today - I again submit, Your Honour, that it should be ruled out. ,m. SPEAKER: lam sure all members of the honourable House are aware of the problems facing the fishery in the province today. I feel I must rule that this matter is not one that demands the ad,1ournment of this House to debate the topic at this time. ORDERS OF THE DAY: 7209

November 28 • 1974 Tape no. 1764 Page 1 - MW Motion second reading of a bill, 0

An Act Respecting The L:l.cencing Of Trust Companies And Loan Companies~" HON. T. A. HICKMAN (Minister of Justice): Mr. Speaker. this might not be the most crucial issue facing the Province of Newfoundland today but it is a bill designed to protect the investor and the borrower in the Province of Newfoundland and a bill, I would hope, that would commend itself to all honourable members.

I gave notice of this bill earlier in the session and it was not debated because some honourable gentlemen had asked that consideration be given to protecting legitimate companies that are presently in business in Newfoundland and against whom there has been no complaint. I think, ~r.

Speaker, we have, when we move into committee, an amendment which will provide for that kind of protection, We propose to ask this House to approve an amendment to the effect that this bill will not relate to a trust company that has been actively engaged in business of a loan company for a period of not less than two years immediately prior to the March 31, 1974. What the principle of the bill is designed to do, Mr.

Speaker, is this: It i.s designed to compel, in future, any trust company or any group of individuals coming into Newfoundland, who wish to go into the business of a trust and loan company, who wish to go out and sell debentures or bonds to the public, to file with the superintendent of insurance, a statement showing that that company has sufficient assets to cover the amounts of any debentures that they will sell in the province.

This, I believe, is a very prudent piece of legislation, Mr, Speaker, when we look at some of the problems and some of the scandals and near scandals that have occurred in other provinces and resulting therefrom these provinces have been compelled to bring in legislation but it is sort of locking the barn door after the horae has escaped. 7210

November 28, 1974 Tape no. 1764 Page 2 People will recall some of the problems in the Province of Ontario, in particular, with some trust comany or companies in the Niagra Peninsula and the major losses that were sustained by bondholders and investors as a result that following this the Ontario Legislature brought in legislation. I think one would have to agree with the wisdom of our bringing_ this legislation before the House now. Hopefully, it will become law so that in this province we will not have to wait until some difficulty arises but rather we have the protection now.

The principle of the bill will require any of these people to file with the superintendent of insurance annually a detailed statement of the company's assets, etc., based upon which a licence can then be issued. It will also require that any new company starting business as a loan or trust company must have unimpaired paid up capital and surplus of that company of not less than $1 million. Also that it has insurance with the Canada Insurance Fund, which is a fund that is administered by the Canada Deposit Insurance Corporation, which is a federal organization.

We, as I say, have in this province some reputable companies. We have provided that the minister, if he should be satisfied that these companies have sufficient assets to cover and they have been in business for two years immediately prior to March 31, that if these companies have assets to cover their outstanding debentures that he shall then weigh the requirements of the $1 million and shall issue the necessary certificate. Mr.

Speaker, this is primarily a piece of legislation to protect Newfoundlanders in the future, to protect future inveetors, to try as far as is legislatively possible to prevent any such scandals and difficulties arising in this province that plagued, as I say, Ontario and also the Provinces of Manitoba and Saskatchewan. We fortunately have not had this difficulty to face but from time to time the Registrar of Securities has had inquiries and fortunately 7211 n

November 28, 1974 Tape no. 1764 Page 3 those inquiries were never pursued because he felt that he would have been at a loss if they had insisted upon being registered as a trust company in this province, when he knew full well that these were people from outside Newfoundland and that they may not have had the expertise nor the qualifications nor the money in order to sustain that kind of operation. This bill is designed to correct that defect. I commend it to honourable members and I move second reading. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I welcome this piece of legislation.

I think it is very closely related, Sir, to something that l said before the House adjourned in connection with the Companies Act that certain individuals were hiding behind the law, ripping off the poor, ordinary little Newfoundlander, Sir, and then declaring bankruptcy. We have had a number of examples of this over the past eight or ten years in this province. It has probably being going on much longer than that, Sir, but I think it only really has hit home in the last few years.

I am glad, Sir, now that we have a bill before this House respecting the licencing of trust companies and loan companies and that they must nov, when they register, when they apply for a licence, have paid up capital in that trust company or in that loan company. That is a big reform, Sir. Mr. Speaker, I do not know whether the minister can make this bill retroactive or not. There are a number of cases now, I understand outstanding.

Under Section (19) it says: "This act or any provision of this act shall come into force on a day to be proclaimed by the Lieutenant Governor-in-Council. 11 The date of coming into force would be very important, Sir. The=e are a number of people, personal fri~nds of mine, at the present time, asking to have a certain company investigated in this province. I understand that becaui;e of some technicalities, some legal point, that it is impossible to get at this company. I would like for the minister to consider making this bill retroactive, say, for about two years back. 7212

November 28, 1974 Tape no. 1764 Page 4 Another reason that I am glad, Mr. Speaker, that the minister has brought this bill into the House (I do not know whether members are aware of it or not, Mr. Speaker) is that most of these trust companies and loan companies are being operated by doctors and lawyers, well-to-do doctors and well-to-do lawyers. If one should go downtown, Sir, to get a mortgage on one's home, if one should go to CMHC, one is pawned off on one of the lawyers whose name is on the list and then.nine chances out of ten, Sir, he will direct him towards his loan company.

In the case of a second mortgage, some of these loans go up as high as twenty-five per cent I am told. There are lawyers sitting in this honourable House today, Sir, vho are members of loan companies and trust companies. They are loan sharks. They are nothing hut loan sharks, Sir, sitting in this honourable House today. MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Stagg): Order please: I suggest that the honourable member is impugning the integrity of honourable members by inference, by grouping them together collectively. I feel impelled to bring it to his attention. He is on shakey ground.

If he should wish to make his accusations specific, then I suggest that he do so. MR. NEARY: Sir, that is an invitation that I vould like to take Your Honour up on, I have no intention of doing it this afternoon. I may do it at a later date, Sir. If Your Honour should vant I shall 721j

Novetrber 28, 1974. Tape 1765 RH - 1 do it at a later date, Sir. As Your Honour well knows, that most of the people involved in the companies that will have to apply for licenses under this 3ct are doctors and lawyers. They are the ones who are ripping off the public and the poor old public have no pro­ tection up this moment, up to the time of bringing this act into the House, Sir, thev had no protection aRainst these loan sharks. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Why did the honourable member not do somethinr, about it? "fR. NEARY: Why did I not do something about it? I am amazed, Mr. Speaker.

I am absolutely amazed that this piece of legislation was able to get throup.h Cabinet. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NF.ARY! No, I tell you, all we are goinr to do now, Sir, all they are ~oing to do now, Mr. Speaker, they are goinr, to legalize it now, They are goinr, to le~alize the loan sharks and all the well to do lawyers who have these loan companies that the minister is going to license now. They are ~oing to legalize them. There is no protection in here for the consumer and that is what there is not. A.~ HONOURABLE MEMBER: Investors. MR. NEARY: Investors, Yes.

There is no limitation placed on the amount of interest. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: That is federal. MR. NEARY: Ah! Federal, federal, pa\m everythinR off on Ottawa. The minister has been followinR the example of his Premier, pawn everything off on Ottawa, pass the buck to Ottawa. MR. DOODY: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: The minister who just interjected that witty remark, Sir, has had his arm down in a pickle barrel now I suppose for the last couple of years before he became Minister of Industrial Development. The minister should stand in his place in this House, forget about his pickle barrels over at the supermarket.

AN HONOURABLE !-!EMBER: He must have read the redistribution act. MR. NEARY: Pickle barrel Bill, Stand up in the House - 7214

November 28, 1974. Tape 1765 RH - 2 AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: So, Mr. Speaker, while I agree with the legislation I do not think it goes half far enough. It does not go half far enough, Sir. I do not think for one moment it is going to do any good for the consumer, for the ordinary Newfoundlander. I do not think it will help him one hit. It may protect to a certain degree some investors who have been taken to the cleaners, heretofore, it mayt it may not. The only thing that I can see it does, Sir, is that it makes it legal. Now when a company - A.~ HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I cannot hear my ears. Old blabber mouth over there, Sir, old blabber mouth - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Yes, let us talk about it. Does the honourable member want to debate it? Does he want to debate it? Let us talk about Spencer Lake down in Burgeo. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Yes, what about him? What about him? MR. SPEAKER (Stag~): I suggest that honourable members talk about the hill that is supposed to be under discussion. MR.

NEARY: Unfortunately, Sir, this bill does not include land speculators or we would catch up the Minister of Provincial Affairs in our dragnet who is ripping off the consumers and the people of this Province. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. The honourable member is casting innuendoeFand implications against a member of the honourable House. I think he should be invited to withdraw it. MR. NEARY: What was the point of order, Mr, Speaker? MR, SPEAKER (Stagg): The honourable member professes not to have heard or actually did not hear, I am not sure which, the phrase ripping off.

It is certainly not a complimentary phrase. I believe that it does impugn the integrity of a honourable member of the House. I suggest the honourable member for Bell Island may have phrases that are parlia­ mentary yet as descriptive and I call upon him to rephrase his remarks. 721:5

November 28, 1974. Tape 1765 RH - 3 MR. NEARY: Rephrase it. Yes, Sir, I withdraw and I rephrase by statinp, that maybe these land speculators are profiteering slightly, a little bit. That has nothinR to do with this act anyway. Sir. The only thing is that I would like to see land speculators thrown in here. Maybe we would catch a feY more members on the other side in our dra~net. Anyway, Sir, it is not a bad piece of legislation. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Go back to your supermarket, boy, your twenty-five per cent discount. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Old Pickle Barrel Doody. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Pick.le barrel. 'lR. SPEAKER (Stagg): Order, please! I am sure that the honourable member for Bell Island realizes that honourable members are to be described as honourable members in the House and the phrase in which he described the ~inister of Industrial Development is inappropriate. MR, NEARY: Your Honour, I know if one is going to refer to the honourable gentleman, one has to refer to him as honourable pickle barrel Doody. I apologize to the Chair, Sir. HR.

SPEAKER (Stagg): The honourable member likes to make light the remarks of the Chairman or the Speaker at times, At certain times maybe the Speaker may make light the honourable member's remarks. The point being made by the Chair is that an honourable member is not to be referred to by his surname which the honourable member then did in defiance of the rulin~ of the Chair. 'lR. NEARY: Your Honour, I withdraw and l apolize and I rephrase by referring to the honourable member as the honourable junior pickle barrel member from Harbour Main. How is that Your Honour? Is that better? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

NEARY: Now, Sir, the only - ~N HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: The minister has had his arm down in a barrel of pickle now 7210

November 28, 1974. Tape 1765 RH - 4 long enough. He should know. He has his finger into more than that, Anyway, Mr. Speaker, l ~h~uld like the honourable Minister of Justice to consider my suRgestion. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. HR. NEARY: That the Minister of Justice consider, Sir, making this bill, perhaps the House Leader would take the su~gestions, I do not know if the ~finister of Justice, but make this bill retroactive, sayt for about two years. Can the minister do that? Could we amend the bill in committee? Is it possible to do it? Is it ler,ally possible? Is it technically feasihle? Can it be done?

Okay, Sir, thanks very much. MR. MARSHALL: If I may say a few words on the bill, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Star,g): Two honourable members have risen at the same time, If one choses to yield. The member for Bonavista South. MR. J. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I have a reservation with regards to this bill which I would like to put forward. The bill I think is designed to protect the person who is investing funds into a company like a trust company or a loan company, makinR small deposits.

On the other hand it is also going to cancel out many of the small loan companies which are now making second mortRa~es to people who are in desperate need of funds whether to build homes or to start a new business or whether it may be, mainly because of

Section 5,

Section 5 stipulates 0 A license shall not he granted to a company if the unimpaired paid up capital and surplus of the company is less than $1 million." This means that the law firms as mentioned by the opposition member, and other loan companies, for example, like associations or societies. My reservation is with re~ards to these people who are now making loans available, like co-op loans.

Teachers 1 associations and other ~roups around the Province, are making loans available for second mortgage.purposes, and these loan companies will now be ruled out because many of them have not got that $1 million in capital. If that happens we are going to see many scourcea of funds thatare now available to people for second mortgages purposes no longer available. 721/

November 28, 1974. Tape 1765 RH - 5 So I have a very stron~ reservation on that. I think the bill is a good hill with regards to protecting the investor. We need protection for the investors and we saw too many trust companies in the past and so-called loan companies go bankrupt and the people who invested their small deposits over years lose all of their investments. But the bill in that re~ard in good but I think we should take a second look at the elimination of many small loan companies which will now not qualify to be licensed in this Province. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (Stagg): The Minister without Portfolio, HON. W. MARSHALL: Mr, Speaker, the points raised by the honourable member for Bonavista South and the honourable member for Bell Island will be answered I know in the main by my colleague, the Minister of Justice. There are a few things that I want to point out about this bill. This bill, first of all, is supposed to be designed to protect the small investor who is putting money in the companies and the companies go bankrupt and there is nothing left. No~, fortunately this has not occurred to any Newfoundland companies but it 7218

November 28. 1974 Tape 1766 IB-1 has occured in other provincial areas. The reason the $1 million is there of paid up capital is to give protection to these investors. The point brought up by the member for Bonavista South certainly has some substance. I think really what we are trying to do is to protect the person, the general public, whose investment is being solicited by certain companies. In other words, certain companies go out and they invite people to invest money in them for the purpose of reinvestment. They give bonds or debentures. They give promissory notes or evidences of debt.

The precaution that ve vant to take is against these companies. As bad and all a~ the lawyers are, as the honourable member from Bell Island will tell us from time to time, I do not think even he is attempting to state that if individuals thernselves,whether they be lawyers or whoever they may be, if they happen to be lending their own money, that is their own concern. If they go up the spout, I am sure the member for Bell Island would applaud, While the individual himself would feel some grief, it is not going to hurt the general public because his company has not solicited loans.

What we are trying to do is we are trying to protect, as I say, the widow. We are trying to protect the small time investor who puts SlOO, $1,000 or $5,000 in an investment and for which he or she gets a bond or a debenture, Now, I do not know whether my colleague will perhaps consider - of course when we are in the House this is the place for the consideration of the bills. Perhaps the definition of a loan company itself might be changed somewhat to take in the situation where it applies to companies who solicit either in the future or now1 monies from individuals or accept deposits of any nature.

This is not the way as I see this definition here of loan company. I would think that if any person or any company shoulrl go out soliciting investments from people, there should be a certain amount of security there, Now, we have to distinquiah that and between investments that are made by people who have an interest in the company, such as paid up share capital. If they are putting their money into it and they lose it, well that is their 7219

November 28, 1974 Tape 1766 IB-2 funeral. We are not too concerned about them. What we are concerned with is a person who makes an investment in a company, has no say what­ ever in the management of that company and how it operates, has no say with respect to how the money is to be loaned, on what security and cannot see where it is going and is dependant then upon the people who are managing the company itself. These people should be entitled to some type of security. This act proports to do it by having ~1 million paid up capital behind it. That in itself is fairly good security I would say.

These figures are arbitrary, $1 million or $500,000 or what have you. Certainly there should be a certain amount of money,of paid up capital. I just wonder whether - of course it has been two 1 three or four months now since we have been at legislation and I know the ~inister of Justice will want to explain it when he gets up. Perhaps the loan company definition could be included to extend it to include all companies who solicit money as I say from people who are not shareholders and that this definition should apply, not only to companies in the future but to any existing companies who are soliciting.

I do not see any company really being given grandfather rights because the position is too delicate. What we are trying to do is - you know, it would be a catastrophe if, as I say, large amounts of money were lost to the same investor. So, I think it should apply to every company, both present and future and perhaps, as I say, by way of suggestion that we could make it apply to companies who solicit funds for the purpose of investment. These investments are made without any person having any interest in the paid up shared capital of the company. HR.

SPEAKER: If the honourable minister speaks now he closes the debate. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, may I assure first the honourable gentleman from Bonavista South that this act applies to companies incorporated under either the Canada Companies Act or the Newfoundland Companies Act and would not apply to that kind of association that the honourable gentlen;an has referred to. Secondly, the association such as the NTA, which is already in business, would not be covered by it because they too are excluded having 7220

November 28, 1974 Tape 1766 IB-3 been in business for more than two years, from March 31, 1974. I see some difficulty with the question raised by the honourable the House Leader insofar as the definition of the loan company is concerned. We have to be abundantly clear and certain that anyone who invests money in a company, that type of trust or loan company, can rest assured that there are sufficient assets to cover them in the event that company goes in default or finds itself bankrupt. It is equally clear that trust companies that sometimes may start out simply lending money - they may put in their own money.

If I had a trust company, I might take my 01-m money and put it in it and lend it to someone. If that occurred, if I went bandrupt, I would be the loser. The person who borrowed would not be because he simply would continue to pay off his mortgage to the trustee in bankruptcy and when it is paid off, he would get his release of mortgage. There seems to be an increasing tendency today on the part of trust companies in Canada to suddenly expand the business beyond that and start receiving deposits from the general public.

There again there must be sufficient financial assets or assets readily convertible to cash to cover them. I will undertake, Mr. Speaker, before we go·into committee to have another look at the definition of company as it defines trust and loan company. The other section, I think, that is quite acceptable, is the one that deals uith existing loan companies that are in the debenture business now where the minister has the responsibility or the right to waive if they have sufficient assets to cover their outstanding debentures. On motion a Bill. 11

An Act Respecting The Licensing Of Trust Companies And Loan Companies,!! read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. MR. MARSHALL: At this stage we are not ready to go ahead with the few other there are only a few other bills really on the Order Paper. Normally, I will be making a motion of adjournment as the government is entitled to do now. It is Thursday, I would suggest - I know I will get the concurrence of the honourable member for Bell Island - that 7221

November 28, 1974 Tape 1766 IB-4 we call it now five thirty so that Your Honour can then put the motion to the House that we now adjourn and the honourable member for Bell Island can get up with his debate on the matter that he wanted raised on the adjournment of the House. The honourable Minister of Provincial Affiarn can answer for five minutes under the Standing Order and then at ten after five we can go home because I know all members are anxious to study the Redistribution Bill. MR.

SPEAKER: I shall take it as being five thirty and the motion to adjourn tas been made and recognize the honourable member for Bell Island who has five minutes to speak to the question. !-Ot. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, for the last three years in this province we have heard the Premier and his ministers when referring to the high cost of living in Newfoundland repeatedly pass the buck to Ottawa. We heard the Premier and the ministers state publicly time and time again that there is nothing that the provincial government can do about the high cost of living. ''It is an international problen(they kept telling us.

It is an national problem. It is a problem for the United Nations. Well, Sir, the Food Prices Review Board which is made up of completely independant people who answer to nobody but the public,who answer to nobody but the taxpayers of Canada, disagree with the Premier and the ministers in the present Tory Administration. The board, Sir, has pinpointed beyond any doubt the cause of hiRh food prices in this province. The next step, Mr.

Speaker, is to discuss measures that can be taken by this government, the government of this province, the provincial government, the Moores Administration, to discuss measures, Sir, 7222

TnPP 1767 ti J76fl PK - 1 that can he tal·en to eliminnte the chief cause of high food nrices in t'his nrovince ninpointert bv the Food Prices Review Board. One of the chief reasons HP are told hy this P.:roup of inder,endent Canadian. one of the chief rf'asons for the high fond nrices in NMJfoundland and Labrador is hecause of the sunerfulous levels of distrihution of food nroducts. Hv honourable pickle barrel ~femhP.r for Parhour !-'Jlin should well l~now r>eing a suoetll\8.rket man. :In hi" hevdav.

Pe Are nrohahly 1ustifiable in the past hut can no lonrer hP cnnsidered jmitiffalcle todav. l!Ays and means., 'Mr. ~nealter, rm.tl'lt he found hv which the eovernment of this nrovince can encournp,e if necessary throu~h n special cro,,m cornnrnt:!on !'tome tJAY, Sir, of eliminatin!'!: double handlinp. douhle mnrkups, the middle man nnd carry out some of the recmnmendatione. i~pJernent Rome of the recot'!'!l'!lP.ndations of the Fnod PriceA Peview Roa.rd. HerP 1-,p 11.re, ttr.

SnealrPr, on November 28, 1974. hroup:ht hack to this Rousr:i to discusR matters that nre supposed to be concerned about the ordinary nerson of this nrovince. What do µp find, Hr. Sneaker? We are forced. the nnno!dtion iA forced to fri:i:?.1£>, a-i.-ay ite time on foolish nonsense HP:e n l'lpdiRtribution Bill thnt will and nine more meT!'lbers to the House of A!:;F1embly. AN HOM. ~~-1BER.'._ He voted for it, ~...:~ "7o. !Hr, I did not votA for it. To add nine more memherR, ~-fr. - !naurlihle, Nnt n neen, not 11 oeen, f:,fr, not a tuiund About the hiJ?;h co,;t of 1 iv:fng.

No :f.nrlicntion whatsoever of what the ,Rovernment are going to do a.hoot th,:, Food PriceA Revie~,• Rnard' R recomnumdationst they want to talk nbout nrldin.P' another ten cl1Rtr1ctA, !.fR. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Snea~er, nh hold it nou, Hr.- I mP.a.n tha.t has got nothing to do with the matter now hefore t:he t:h1dr, the Jted:f.Rtributinn fiill. I nup.p;eat the honourable ~{emher for RP.11 Island get on with his debate and perhaps go up and vi.!';i t Parhnur "!nin toni.µ:ht nnd see if he can meet B few neonle. 1-m, NEARY: "1r. Speaker, that :fs not anoint of order. 7223

Poveml-,er 28, JQ]t, Tane 17F7 ~ 176A PY - 2 _HP. S~f!,.Kf'.~: OrdAr, nleni::P! :_'R. NF_tuY'. Hr. ~n0;1h~r. all that fa, ts 1ui::t to use un .o;:nrrH' of mv fiv..,_ r1:fnutPn. Sir. Th,1t is all thn.t is. ttR, -~PF,AKF~ i:!'.!-_NI!J~X.: ::~.AKFP · 0rder. nlp_a.o;:c ! nut, '4r. !'-':tH?aJ,er - Order, nlease! I fer>l thnt th~ honourahle "emher for Rell Islnnd µa,r; not he:inrr relfivant to the ton:fcn in question hut he mnv continue, "-l'P:. Nf'ARY: HPll, itr.

SnenYer, the noint that I arn makinR here is that :Im;tead of frivoling away nur time on foolish nonsense like redistrihution hil .1 s that nrP inflntionnrv in themselVel'l, Sir, becaURe if we nass thnt hill, it will add $250,000 to electfon exnenses in thi~ nrovince nnd the running of th:fr; House, ~:fr. What we should he dn:inp., Hr. Speaker, iR trvinp; to find some wav~ nnd meani:: flv ,.,h:fch ve can imnlement some of the recommendations of the Food Pr:! ce ~Pvf ew- Board.

Thfa 1.s uhat rve ~honld he do:f.nr i.n this Hotrne at this narticul;ir ti.me, fiir, on Novemher 28, l<J74, trvinr, to do somethinP: for the ordinarv nPonle. AN HON. HFMBE'Q:_ !naudihle. tm,. F. :ROhl'F: On that no:fnt of order, Hr. Speaker, I would su1t1test that hecaui:;e of thP harasl'!inr, from the Memher for St. John's Rast th,1.t the ~ember for Bell IRVmd he alloved to continue. HR. SPEAYfll: Order, nlPase! The rule is ver.v clear that each person is al.lmred fivp mfnutr.s and the honourahle "'!ernher for Bell Island has lest. t½an one minut0 1Pft, HR '.......!.:!'APY...:_. '!r.

Sneah:•r, T would 1ust like to wind un hv savin!'; that heforn this honourahle crowd, Sir, formed the p;overnment of this nrovince, do vou renember n]J the chnv nml al] the chatter and all the oJd Jin nhout T1riorities, Well where ,1.re their nrior:ft:feR nm,1, Sir, 1.1hen they drar. us hnck to t11'!~ Hou~e to d1RCU/Hl redistrihution :md ignorP. c:omnletelv, Sir, recommendation~ of a Fonrl Pr:fcP P-evfep• Rmtrd that could hP so beneficial to thP ordinarv PP.OnlP of thi1> nrovinCt'. ~11'~.:~AKF_!.'._:_,, The Pon. "-fnister of Provincial Affair;; and Environment. 7224

TanP 17M7 S 17~8 PK - 3 PON. W. G. TIAHE (MINTSTFR OF PROVINCIAL An'AIRS AND P'NUTRONMFNT): I am jui:;.t PcmrlPrinP: t.1hat thP nuei::tion on redtRtribut:Jon 1-rns~ Your Honour? Was it redistrihution of Food PriceR Review Board Renort? AN HON. "ffil-ffiFR : Inaudihle. 1'fR. nAtJ'E: t:rho can comnreliend anvthinp; he, says? Pr. Sneaker. RincP tal'inp. office thP. Moores Administration have not heen lyinR i<lly hy and not doing anything as far as the consumers are concerned. I would _1uRt liVe to go over a few prop;rarnm.es that we have instituted so far, Rince takin~ over onlv a couple of years ngo.

Ve have accomplished more 1n these two vears than the Grits did in twenty-three. F.verybody in Newfoundland knot-•s that and many neople in Gander last weekend izave us ouite a vote of confidence when we had a turnout of almoRt 700 peonle, jammed the halls. !=:!nee takinr, over, !'fr. !ir,eaker, ve hav2 increased the minimum wage from the meanly $1.10 which the Grits had up until 1972, we have increased it to $2.20 an hour~ it will he $2.20 an hour in January. That is exactly double. We have also done something which the Grit~ ea.id that could not be done.

The Leader of the nnnosition said, the? cannot do it, it ie imnossible. We took the SSA tax off children's clothing,desnite the fact it tmuld not be done. It is working wP.11. and many parents are benefitin1t from it. We have removed the SSA tnx from home heating fuel. WI! have hrought in a pro~ramme where children's school hooks an~ free up to Grade VI, and ve will he extendin~ that to Grade IX in the vear coming. We have brought in a new ,;ocial assistance programme, t-Jh:ich wai:; announced in this House lal'lt vear by the Hon.

Minieter of Social ServiceA, And. again today we learned from that same honourable gentleman that Pe nre increar:;:lnp th~RP. henefits again in January of next yr.ar by twelve r,oint RevP.n ner cent. We hnve tAken this Food Prices Rev:fe1-1 Renart, Mr. Speaker, and we nre nresP,ntly nnnlyzing it, as I said publicly, there are ~ood recommendations in it.

There is one there in narticular where it ia recommended that thete he a sub,:;idy on evanorated milk eominp, :into the province, another one recommending the unp.radin!!; of CN service, th~ Gulf service and no on. 'J"heae are all good oos1tivP recormnendntionA hut thev are recommendations uhich can only be affected bv and inAUtutPd hy the fedp,ral ROVernment, 7225

PK - 4 JnstPati of doinr, what the Fond Price,q ReviPt-1 'Board P.(!port recoT!lr!l:P.Tid!'>. "fr. Snpa~-·er, they nrc doinr exactly the onposite. The,, nre rrmovinr. thP fiv-P ner cent rnilk imbfl"idv or freRh milk ( five cents ner r:a.11on, I hel:feve. it in). AN HON, HEl'RFP.: A nunrt. 't"'ivf": cPnti:; n nu,,rt. I mn told. Thnt i!'t corrdnR off instead of nuttitir it on rmd incrc;.sinP- it, thPy nre taking :ft off. Thr>v ;.re reducinr: the federnl freif!ht ~llh!ddv in the Atlnntic ppi:,fon frotTl RevP-nt~en Per cent to fiftPen ncr CPnt, when thnt voes into effect T do not know, I heArd it tndnv nn the rRrlin.

ThPy are rf'>tiucing th;it hy ttm nPr cent. It is Aneculated tJ,at this would 1ncrense the cost of liv:fnr: herp tn the nrovinc,:, hy two per Cfmt. The rn flervice HnP.lf leave!'l rmch tn he desirl!d, that ha!'l been a net iJ';RUP, wfth me for the last counle of venrs. '!op w>: hnve the hnnourahle 'femher for Bell !Rlanrl. stand1.ng un todnv and uonderinr>: t-:h,1.t Pe are dninr,: for conRut'ler nffairs. Pe have not hel'm Rittinr irUv hv.

Pe are prenentlv worldnrz with a committee now m;tde un of univer!'l:ftv neot11~. neonle from P. f, P. nnd mv own dP.oartMent analv:,;ing this renort anr1 the•.t are tn come un vith ROfflP.: RUP,RP.Rterl lc,_p-i1a:lation for the followinr session of thP. JlnuRP nf ARsemhlv, Ve f-(r>t the honourahle Hemher for Bell I.r;land standing un ",-"Ondl"ring what t.ie nre doing, T-'hnt dirl he. do'I T,Jhat did MR administration do •-rhpn he nM; in? Pl,nt Iii~ ti1cv dn for the. nennle of Bell IRland. hirn.<.f'lf, in hls oPn diRtrict nhile h: vaR Hj_nistcr of Pelfare allm:inR Hr. Ki'.!llotarav. the local procer over there.

LT. iff'llouav to charpe twentv ner cent service charr.e _iust to cnsh a welfnre cheoue'J Thnt ts f?Ood stuff for consumeriRm. It is great stuff. He _P.;ot the r:nll tn stand here today and a~k l'l:e what ~!e are doing t.'ith rerard to the Food Pricei:; nev:f.ev Board nnd consumer rnntters in p,eneral. ~-• SPFAKf:3.: have elapsed. Thate to interrupt the honourable minlater but his five minutes lJf'll I thinJ.,- I hnvf' an.,;wp_red quitP. adermately, Hr. Sneaker. We trill 're! worl·inp, on thi.R. Just to summarize it briefly, we are working on the renort.

We are coming up Pith legislation 't-ihich we are certainly r,oing to imnlemens,anythinr nosttive that we can1 to help rerluce the cost of livinR in this nrovi.ncP, 7220

~!ovember 28, 1974 Tane 1767 & 1768 PK - 5 ~~, SPF.AKER : It has hecn moved and seconded that ;hr. l-fom;,:• do now adjourn. 0n notion the House at its rising adjourned until tomorrow, Friday. November 20, 1974, at 3:00 P,M, 7221

I N D E X A.~SWERS TO QUESTIONS TABLED NOVEMBER 28, 1974 7228

Ministerial Statement by lion. A. J. Murphy Minister of Social Services To House of Assembly - November 28, 1974. Mr. Speaker, Members of the House of Assembly This is the proudest moment of my life! I have good news for thousands of Newfoundlanders who ar