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British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session, 38th Parliament OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY (HANSARD) Tuesday, April 8, 2008 Afternoon Sitting Volume 30, Number 2 THE HONOURABLE BILL BARISOFF, SPEAKER ISSN 0709-1281

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871) LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR His Honour the Honourable Steven L. Point, OBC FOURTH SESSION, 38TH PARLIAMENT SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Bill Barisoff EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council ............................................................................................................Hon. Gordon Campbell Deputy Premier and Minister of Education and Minister Responsible for Early Learning and Literacy...................... Hon.

Shirley Bond Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation ........................................................................................................ Hon. Michael de Jong Minister of Advanced Education and Minister Responsible for Research and Technology ........................................... Hon. Murray Coell Minister of Agriculture and Lands.......................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Pat Bell Attorney General and Minister Responsible for Multiculturalism............................................................................... Hon. Wally Oppal, QC Minister of Children and Family Development ................................................................................................................Hon. Tom Christensen Minister of State for Childcare ........................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Linda Reid Minister of Community Services and Minister Responsible for Seniors’ and Women’s Issues........................................... Hon. Ida Chong Minister of Economic Development and Minister Responsible for the Asia-Pacific Initiative and the Olympics.................Hon. Colin Hansen Minister of Employment and Income Assistance ...........................................................................................................Hon.

Claude Richmond Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources .......................................................................................................Hon. Richard Neufeld Minister of State for Mining......................................................................................................................................................Hon. Kevin Krueger Minister of Environment and Minister Responsible for Water Stewardship and Sustainable Communities ...............Hon.

Barry Penner Minister of Finance.......................................................................................................................................................................Hon. Carole Taylor Minister of Forests and Range and Minister Responsible for Housing ............................................................................. Hon. Rich Coleman Minister of Health ......................................................................................................................................................................Hon.

George Abbott Minister of Labour and Citizens’ Services ......................................................................................................................................Hon. Olga Ilich Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General and Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations............... Hon. John van Dongen Minister of Small Business and Revenue and Minister Responsible for Regulatory Reform............................................ Hon.

Rick Thorpe Minister of Tourism, Sport and the Arts ......................................................................................................................................Hon. Stan Hagen Minister of State for ActNow B.C. ............................................................................................................................................ Hon. Gordon Hogg Minister of Transportation...........................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Kevin Falcon LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Leader of the Official Opposition .........................................................................................................................................................Carole James Deputy Speaker ....................................................................................................................................................................................Sindi Hawkins Deputy Speaker ...........................................................................................................................................................................

Katherine Whittred Assistant Deputy Speaker.....................................................................................................................................................................Sue Hammell Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole................................................................................................................................................. Harry Bloy Clerk of the Legislative Assembly .........................................................................................................................E.

George MacMinn, OBC, QC Clerk Assistant.........................................................................................................................................................................................Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk .......................................................................................................................................................Ian D. Izard, QC Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees ....................................................................................................................................... Craig H.

James Clerk Assistant and Committee Clerk ..........................................................................................................................................Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms............................................................................................................................................................................. A.A.

Humphreys Director, Hansard Services ...................................................................................................................................................................Jo-Anne Kern Legislative Librarian ..................................................................................................................................................................................Jane Taylor Legislative Comptroller...............................................................................................................................................................................Dan Arbic

Party Standings: Liberal 46; New Democratic 33 ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS Abbott, Hon. George (L) .................................................................... Shuswap Austin, Robin (NDP)............................................................................. Skeena Bains, Harry (NDP).................................................................. Surrey-Newton Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)..........................................Penticton–Okanagan Valley Bell, Hon.

Pat (L) .............................................................Prince George North Bennett, Bill (L) ........................................................................ East Kootenay Black, Iain (L) ............................................................ Port Moody–Westwood Bloy, Harry (L)................................................................................Burquitlam Bond, Hon. Shirley (L).....................................Prince George–Mount Robson Brar, Jagrup (NDP).....................................................Surrey–Panorama Ridge Campbell, Hon.

Gordon (L) .........................................Vancouver–Point Grey Cantelon, Ron (L)..............................................................Nanaimo-Parksville Chong, Hon. Ida (L) .................................................... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Chouhan, Raj (NDP) ...........................................................Burnaby-Edmonds Christensen, Hon. Tom (L) ................................................. Okanagan-Vernon Chudnovsky, David (NDP) ......................................... Vancouver-Kensington Coell, Hon.

Murray (L) .....................................Saanich North and the Islands Coleman, Hon. Rich (L)...........................................Fort Langley–Aldergrove Conroy, Katrine (NDP) .......................................... West Kootenay–Boundary Coons, Gary (NDP) ....................................................................... North Coast Cubberley, David (NDP)............................................................Saanich South de Jong, Hon.

Michael (L) ...................................Abbotsford–Mount Lehman Dix, Adrian (NDP) .........................................................Vancouver-Kingsway Evans, Corky (NDP).................................................................Nelson-Creston Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L) .......................................................

Surrey-Cloverdale Farnworth, Mike (NDP) ...............................Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Fleming, Rob (NDP) ..............................................................Victoria-Hillside Fraser, Scott (NDP) ..............................................................Alberni-Qualicum Gentner, Guy (NDP).......................................................................Delta North Hagen, Hon. Stan (L) ................................................................ Comox Valley Hammell, Sue (NDP) ................................................... Surrey–Green Timbers Hansen, Hon.

Colin (L) ..................................................Vancouver-Quilchena Hawes, Randy (L).......................................................... Maple Ridge–Mission Hawkins, Sindi (L) ............................................................... Kelowna-Mission Hayer, Dave S. (L) ................................................................ Surrey-Tynehead Hogg, Hon.

Gordon (L).....................................................Surrey–White Rock Horgan, John (NDP)......................................................Malahat–Juan de Fuca Horning, Al (L)........................................................... Kelowna–Lake Country Ilich, Hon. Olga (L)...............................................................Richmond Centre James, Carole (NDP).......................................................Victoria–Beacon Hill Jarvis, Daniel (L)..................................................

North Vancouver–Seymour Karagianis, Maurine (NDP) ........................................... Esquimalt-Metchosin Krog, Leonard (NDP)......................................................................... Nanaimo Krueger, Hon. Kevin (L) .....................................Kamloops–North Thompson Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP)........................... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Lali, Harry (NDP)........................................................................

Yale-Lillooet Lee, Richard T. (L)....................................................................Burnaby North Lekstrom, Blair (L).............................................................. Peace River South Les, John (L)........................................................................ Chilliwack-Sumas Macdonald, Norm (NDP).................................... Columbia River–Revelstoke MacKay, Dennis (L)....................................................

Bulkley Valley–Stikine Mayencourt, Lorne (L).......................................................Vancouver-Burrard McIntyre, Joan (L).................................................West Vancouver–Garibaldi Neufeld, Hon. Richard (L) .................................................. Peace River North Nuraney, John (L).............................................................Burnaby-Willingdon Oppal, Hon. Wally, QC (L).......................................... Vancouver-Fraserview Penner, Hon. Barry (L)...........................................................

Chilliwack-Kent Polak, Mary (L) ....................................................................................Langley Puchmayr, Chuck (NDP)...................................................... New Westminster Ralston, Bruce (NDP) ............................................................. Surrey-Whalley Reid, Hon. Linda (L) ................................................................ Richmond East Richmond, Hon. Claude (L).............................................................

Kamloops Robertson, Gregor (NDP) ................................................Vancouver-Fairview Roddick, Valerie (L).......................................................................Delta South Routley, Doug (NDP)..................................................... Cowichan-Ladysmith Rustad, John (L) ........................................................

Prince George–Omineca Sather, Michael (NDP).........................................Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ...................................Powell River–Sunshine Coast Simpson, Bob (NDP)..................................................................Cariboo North Simpson, Shane (NDP) ....................................................Vancouver-Hastings Sultan, Ralph (L) ....................................................West Vancouver–Capilano Taylor, Hon.

Carole (L).....................................................Vancouver-Langara Thorne, Diane (NDP) .................................................Coquitlam-Maillardville Thorpe, Hon. Rick (L).......................................................Okanagan-Westside Trevena, Claire (NDP) ..................................................................North Island van Dongen, Hon. John (L)............................................ Abbotsford-Clayburn Whittred, Katherine (L)........................................

North Vancouver–Lonsdale Wyse, Charlie (NDP) .................................................................Cariboo South Yap, John (L)...................................................................Richmond-Steveston LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Abbotsford-Clayburn....................................................Hon. John van Dongen Abbotsford–Mount Lehman .......................................... Hon. Michael de Jong Alberni-Qualicum..........................................................................

Scott Fraser Bulkley Valley–Stikine ...........................................................Dennis MacKay Burnaby North ...........................................................................Richard T. Lee Burnaby-Edmonds........................................................................Raj Chouhan Burnaby-Willingdon................................................................... John Nuraney Burquitlam.......................................................................................Harry Bloy Cariboo North..............................................................................

Bob Simpson Cariboo South..............................................................................Charlie Wyse Chilliwack-Kent ..................................................................Hon. Barry Penner Chilliwack-Sumas............................................................................... John Les Columbia River–Revelstoke................................................. Norm Macdonald Comox Valley........................................................................ Hon.

Stan Hagen Coquitlam-Maillardville..............................................................Diane Thorne Cowichan-Ladysmith ................................................................. Doug Routley Delta North ...................................................................................Guy Gentner Delta South ............................................................................. Valerie Roddick East Kootenay................................................................................

Bill Bennett Esquimalt-Metchosin.........................................................Maurine Karagianis Fort Langley–Aldergrove ..................................................Hon. Rich Coleman Kamloops.....................................................................Hon. Claude Richmond Kamloops–North Thompson ............................................Hon. Kevin Krueger Kelowna–Lake Country.................................................................. Al Horning Kelowna-Mission ......................................................................

Sindi Hawkins Langley ...........................................................................................Mary Polak Malahat–Juan de Fuca .................................................................. John Horgan Maple Ridge–Mission ................................................................ Randy Hawes Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows ..................................................... Michael Sather Nanaimo......................................................................................

Leonard Krog Nanaimo-Parksville .....................................................................Ron Cantelon Nelson-Creston .............................................................................Corky Evans New Westminster .................................................................. Chuck Puchmayr North Coast....................................................................................

Gary Coons North Island ...............................................................................Claire Trevena North Vancouver–Lonsdale................................................Katherine Whittred North Vancouver–Seymour..........................................................Daniel Jarvis Oak Bay–Gordon Head ........................................................... Hon. Ida Chong Okanagan-Vernon......................................................... Hon. Tom Christensen Okanagan-Westside..............................................................Hon.

Rick Thorpe Peace River North.......................................................... Hon. Richard Neufeld Peace River South..................................................................... Blair Lekstrom Penticton–Okanagan Valley .................................................Hon. Bill Barisoff Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain ............................................Mike Farnworth Port Moody–Westwood.................................................................... Iain Black Powell River–Sunshine Coast ...............................................

Nicholas Simons Prince George North.................................................................... Hon. Pat Bell Prince George–Mount Robson ............................................Hon. Shirley Bond Prince George–Omineca................................................................ John Rustad Richmond Centre......................................................................Hon. Olga Ilich Richmond East........................................................................Hon.

Linda Reid Richmond-Steveston...........................................................................John Yap Saanich North and the Islands ............................................ Hon. Murray Coell Saanich South ........................................................................ David Cubberley Shuswap............................................................................Hon. George Abbott Skeena.......................................................................................... Robin Austin Surrey-Cloverdale............................................................... Hon.

Kevin Falcon Surrey–Green Timbers ................................................................Sue Hammell Surrey-Newton............................................................................... Harry Bains Surrey–Panorama Ridge.................................................................Jagrup Brar Surrey-Tynehead ....................................................................... Dave S. Hayer Surrey-Whalley...........................................................................Bruce Ralston Surrey–White Rock ............................................................Hon.

Gordon Hogg Vancouver-Burrard..............................................................Lorne Mayencourt Vancouver-Fairview.............................................................Gregor Robertson Vancouver-Fraserview .................................................Hon.

Wally Oppal, QC Vancouver-Hastings .................................................................Shane Simpson Vancouver-Kensington.......................................................David Chudnovsky Vancouver-Kingsway ......................................................................Adrian Dix Vancouver-Langara ........................................................... Hon. Carole Taylor Vancouver–Mount Pleasant........................................ Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Vancouver–Point Grey ................................................Hon.

Gordon Campbell Vancouver-Quilchena.........................................................Hon. Colin Hansen Victoria–Beacon Hill...................................................................

Carole James Victoria-Hillside ...........................................................................Rob Fleming West Kootenay–Boundary........................................................Katrine Conroy West Vancouver–Capilano...........................................................Ralph Sultan West Vancouver–Garibaldi ........................................................Joan McIntyre Yale-Lillooet..................................................................................... Harry Lali

CONTENTS Tuesday, April 8, 2008 Afternoon Sitting Routine Proceedings Page Introductions by Members ....................................................................................................... ............................................ 11049 Introduction and First Reading of Bills........................................................................................ ....................................... 11050 Medicare Protection Amendment Act, 2008 (Bill 21) Health Care Costs Recovery Act (Bill 22) Hon. G.

Abbott Statements (Standing Order 25B) .............................................................................................................................. ........... 11051 Canadian Rockies International Airport expansion B. Bennett West Shore Arts Council M. Karagianis Work-life balance L. Mayencourt Emergency services dispatchers C. Puchmayr National Wildlife Week D. MacKay Enver Creek Secondary School band H.

Bains Oral Questions................................................................................................................. ....................................................... 11053 Homelessness C. James Hon. R. Coleman G. Gentner D. Thorne J. Brar D. Chudnovsky Independence of Representative for Children and Youth N. Simons Hon. T. Christensen L. Krog Second Reading of Bills........................................................................................................ ................................................. 11057 Electoral Districts Act (Bill 19) Hon. W. Oppal J.

Kwan Greenhouse Gas Reduction (Renewable and Low Carbon Fuel Requirements) Act (Bill 16) (continued) On the amendment (continued) B. Lekstrom M. Karagianis J. Horgan On the main motion C. Trevena M. Sather S. Simpson G. Robertson C. Puchmayr

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room Committee of Supply............................................................................................................ ................................................. 11085 Estimates: Ministry of Agriculture and Lands Hon. P. Bell C. Evans C. Wyse G. Coons N. Macdonald N. Simons D. Routley J. Brar H. Bains M. Sather

11049 TUESDAY, APRIL 8, 2008 The House met at 1:36 p.m. [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] Introductions by Members Hon. G. Campbell: Over 3,500 athletes in 53 com- munities across the province compete as part of the Special Olympics in British Columbia. They are sup- ported by 2,600 volunteers. Today we are honoured to have a number of these athletes and coaches here in the Legislature with us.

They include Benjamin Attfield, David Devison and Hazen Meade of Campbell River; Nathan Bodie, Jeremy Cheverie, Maggie Tennant, Winnie Whitman, Carol Stocker, Pauline Shaw and Bill White of Victoria; Bobby Bolen, Chris Gillis, Richard Gillis and Colin Wells of Comox; Kerri Lipsack and Reg Lipsack of Parksville. Their coaches here with us today are Maureen Brinson and Lori Holmgren of Campbell River, Bill Crocker and Art Peck of Nanaimo, Larry Cagna of Comox and Barry Loney of Victoria.

I would ask the House to make all of them welcome and say to all of them on behalf of the House: congratu- lations on the excellent jobs that you all did in Quebec City. You made us all proud. Keep up the great work. L. Krog: Joining us in the precincts today are a num- ber of grade 7 students from Quarterway Elementary in Nanaimo. Accompanying them is their teacher Anne Grant and several anxious and, I'm sure, happy parents to bring them to the seat of wisdom and political intelligence in the province of British Columbia — the Legislature. I'd ask the House to please make them welcome. Hon. S.

Hagen: In the Legislature today we have a group of grade 5 students from Huband Park Elemen- tary School. There's a whole bunch of them — over 50 of them. They were all in my office a few minutes ago. The students are accompanied by their teacher Ms. Valerie Sheriff, who also has a very talented son who plays the piano, as well as many parent chaperones. Would the House please join me in welcoming these students from the beautiful Comox Valley. M. Farnworth: It's my pleasure today to introduce in the gallery a school trustee from school district 43, Ms. Debra Burton.

She is a lawyer and a resident of Port Coquitlam. Last municipal election in 2005, she swept to victory in the sch ool board elections in our community, taking every single poll. If she chooses to run in November, which I sincerely hope she does, I have no doubt she will repeat that feat. Would the House please make her most welcome. Hon. K. Krueger: Joining us this afternoon in the c h a m b e r a r e t w o p e o p l e v e r y d e a r t o t h i s s i d e o f t h e House — Janice Robertson and her beautiful little daughter Julia Maloney, who will be a one-year-old in two weeks.

Janice is very familiar with the building a n d w i t h a l l o f u s o n t h e g o v e r n m e n t s i d e , a s s h e worked very hard with us in the government caucus communications department before she left us to be a full-time mom. Would everybody join me in making Janice and Julia very welcome. S. Fraser: Visiting us today in the precinct are Quincey Kirschner and Glenn Urquhart, representing Arthritis Consumer Experts. ACE is the acronym. They are here to educate some of us legislators about the serious realities of arthritis in the province.

I would ask all members to learn from their work and also to join me in helping make them feel very welcome. [1340] Hon. I. Chong: In the House today I would like to welcome and introduce two very special visitors who are joining us to observe question period. The first is a well-known Victoria businessman, Mr. Gordy Dodd of Dodd's Furniture. I'm sure many members will certainly recognize him through the very many television commercials he's had. You will have seen him in a number of disguises, but today he is here as he normally appears at a number of events around the community.

I know people around the province also know him because he is famous for his slogan "I won't be under- sold," and it has done him very well over the years. Mr. Dodd is joined with his br other Gurnam Dodd, who is visiting him today. I hope the House would please make them all very welcome. C. Trevena: In the last session the House passed the Maa-nulth treaty, which involved five west coast bands and included the Ka:'yu:'k't'h'-Che:k:tles7et'h'.

Today I had the pleasure of having lunch with three graduating students from Kyuquot Elementary Secondary School, students who are the future for their community and for our province. Here in the gallery, going to be watching question period, are Trevor Gillette, Tammy Billy and Chantal Smith. I have to add that it is Trevor's 18th birthday today and Chantal's 18th birthday in two days' time. They're here with their te acher Brenda Gilman and their driver and chaperone Ron Chidley. I hope the House will make them all very welcome. R.

Lee: Visiting the House today and tomorrow, as well, are six groups of students from Burnaby North Secondary School — a total of 180 students. I have three children. One gradua ted from Burnaby North School, one is in Burnaby North School, and the other one is going into Burnaby North Secondary School. I would like the House to make those students welcome today and tomorrow. L. Mayencourt: In the gallery today, I have a special guest. Her name is Diane Rodgers. Diane has been working with me on a couple of initiatives, the Baldy Hughes therapeutic community and also the workplace

11050 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, APRIL 8, 2008 bullying initiative that we've started there. She's a great person in our community, so meone who is really dedi- cated to helping people. I'm very pleased to have her here today and ask the House to please make her feel welcome. Introduction and First Reading of Bills MEDICARE PROTECTION AMENDMENT ACT, 2008 Hon. G. Abbott presented a message from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Medi- care Protection Amendment Act, 2008. Hon. G. Abbott: I move that Bill 21, the Medicare Protection Amendment Act, be introduced and read a first time now.

Motion approved. Hon. G. Abbott: The Medicare Protection Amend- ment Act follows through on a commitment made in the 2006 throne speech to define and enshrine the Canada Health Act's five principles and add a sixth principle — sustainability. During the Conversation on Health we heard from British Columbians across the province — over 12,000 submissions. Participants emphasized their support for the principles of the Canada Health Act.

As our government committed, we are defining and enshrining in legislat ion the Canada Health Act principles of public administration, comprehensiveness, universality, portability and accessibility. We are also adding a new section, which will enshrine in legislation for the first time in British Columbia's history the sixth principle of sustainability. On this side of the House we believe that the future sustainability of our public health system is important. In fact, we believe it's so important that we are defining and enshrining it in legislation.

This government is committed to ensuring the world- class health care system we have is available not only today but for future generations. That is precisely why sustainability is an import ant issue and one that must be addressed. With these changes, British Columbia will be the first province in the country to define and enshrine in legislation the principles of the Canada Health Act as well as the principle of sustainability. But we're not stopping there.

During the Conversation on Health, British Colum- bians told us there were other important values that they believe also form the foundation of a world-class health system. British Columbians talked about the importance of individual choice, personal responsibility, innovation, transparency and accountability. We're moving today to introduce these important values into the Medicare Protection Act. [1345] All of these amendments provide a foundation upon which we can build a sustainable, world-class public health system that serves British Columbians not only today but for future generations as well.

Over the coming days our government will be introducing more bills that reflect the values that British Columbi- ans told us were important to a sustainable, publicly funded health care system for today and the future. I move that Bill 21 be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. Bill 21, Medicare Protec tion Amendment Act, 2008, introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sit- ting of the House after today. HEALTH CARE COSTS RECOVERY ACT Hon. G.

Abbott presented a message from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Health Care Costs Recovery Act. Hon. G. Abbott: I move that Bill 22, intituled Health Care Costs Recovery Act, be introduced and read for the first time now. Motion approved. Hon. G. Abbott: The Health Care Costs Recovery Act will provide the government of B.C. with the legal tools necessary to ensure that those who are responsible for the injury of an individual will also be responsible for the reimbursement of the future health care costs incurred as well as potential future health care costs.

B.C. is currently the only province not to have legis- lation that allows government to recover health care costs which have been paid by the province to address injuries which were the result of negligence or wrong- doing of a liable third party. The taxpayers of British Columbia currently subsidize the cost of third-party negligence and wrongdoing, and that isn't right. We have to ensure that the sustainability of our health care system is addressed, and this legislation is important to addressing that issue.

The act will allow government, first of all, to ensure that health care costs asso ciated with wrongdoing and negligence are paid by wrongdoers and their insurers rather than expecting B.C. taxpayers to absorb the costs. It will also recover health care costs associated with an injury due to negligence or wrongdoing of a third party once a lawsuit has been settled or adjudicated. It will allow the province to effectively participate in a number of class action suits where multi-million- dollar settlements or judgments are at stake.

This legislation will expand the scope of areas where claims can be pursued to include past and future health care costs such as medical care, hospital services, ambulance service and continuing care as well as other areas where the provincial government contributes to public programs.

TUESDAY, APRIL 8, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 11051 This legislation addresses not only the issue of sustainability in our public health care system but accountability as well. Accountability for third-party wrongdoing should rest with the third party, and this legislation ensures that that will be the case. I move that Bill 22 be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. Bill 22, Health Care Costs Recovery Act, intro- duced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. Statements (Standing Order 25

B) CANADIAN ROCKIES INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT EXPANSION B. Bennett: The Kootenay region is one of the p l a n e t ' s m o s t d e s i r a b l e p l a c e s t o l i v e , t o w o r k a n d t o play — world-class golf courses and ski resorts, back- country adventures, alpine hi king, fly-fishing, hunting, back-country touring, a ne ar-perfect climate and of course wonderful, friendly people. The one challenge for international visitors has always been the air connections. A few years ago the provincial government recognized a link between the future of our tourism indu stry and air access.

B.C.'s Premier arranged for a capital grant of $9 million — $4½ million from the provin ce and $4½ million from Ottawa. Our airport is now in the final throes of a major expansion, and last week the city of Cranbrook accepted in principle an offer from Delta Air Lines to start a scheduled service into the Canadian Rockies International A i r p o r t f r o m S a l t L a k e C i t y . S a l t L a k e C i t y i s a m a j o r airline hub in the U.S. That airport serves 64 million travellers every year. Visitors from any major city in the U.S. will be able to fly into the region in one day — no overnights.

In another life, I owned an d operated fly-in fishing lodges in Manitoba and the Northwest Territories. I flew my customers from all over the world. I know how important good air connections are to a destina- tion resort. Make it inconvenient, add an overnight to their trip, and they'll go elsewhere. With this new service, you can comfortably wake up in Manhattan or Burbank, fly through Salt Lake City and arrive in the Cranbrook area for dinner the same day. [1350] This is truly a pivotal moment in the history of our region. This is about economic diversification and keeping our kids at home.

I want to express my admi- ration for the coalition that's making the deal with Delta, the business people, Kootenay Rockies Tourism, the city of Cranbrook and YVR, the airport manage- ment company. Well done. I also want to thank the Premier and our govern- ment for the capital funding that made this possible and also for the tourism flex funding that we're now using to market our region to the world. Come to the Kootenays. It's getting easier every day. WEST SHORE ARTS COUNCIL M.

Karagianis: It's a pleasure today to stand and share with the members of the House the story of the West Shore Arts Council in my constituency. The council is a non-profit society that works to encourage creative participation and excellence in the arts and that pro- motes and fosters public interest, appreciation and understanding of the arts. Last May the West Shore Arts Council was selected by the West Shore Chamber of Commerce as the best association of the year, and it's a tribute that is truly deserved.

Fairs, community festivals, arts and crafts exhibitions and tours of home studios are just a few of the ways the council is raising public awareness about the West Shore's vibrant arts and culture heritage. My community office is one of the places that en- joys the council's roaming gallery, and I'm proud and grateful to have the exceptional works of art adorning the walls in my office on a rotating basis. Other places to see the local art, thanks to the council, are monthly art shows at the Juan de Fuca library, the Stinking Fish Studio Tour and West Shore studio tours.

The West Short Arts Council's most ambitious pro- ject is the Arts Everywhere initiative, which serves to promote arts and culture by organizing and sponsoring additional arts events and recognizing individuals for their contribution to the ar ts. Bursaries are made avail- able to students wishing to further their studies and skills. Information booths and art displays are featured at municipal events.

The council is a driving fo rce behind the West Shore Cultural Collaboration, a creative think tank that unites more than 40 representatives of the arts, municipal councillors and planners, first nations, and recreation and education planners. All of it is made possible by citi- zens who generously donate their time to serve. They make the West Shore a brighter, bolder and more vibrant place. I hope members will join me in recognizing the exceptional contribution of the West Shore Arts Council. WORK-LIFE BALANCE L.

Mayencourt: The need for skilled workers here in British Columbia has got to be one of the biggest chal- lenges facing businesses and our economy. Employers are having to find new and creative ways to attract and retain employees. For potential employees, there is also the concern of trying to balance a busy work

schedule with personal and family time. The solution for some companies has been the adoption of flexible work weeks and work schedules for their employees. Employers today realize that having a flexible workplace is a critical component to keeping good workers on th e job. The flexible work- place produces bottom-line results. It has been proven

11052 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, APRIL 8, 2008 both to attract new employee s and to help retain them once they've been hired. WorkLife B.C., sponsored by the Ministry of Chil- dren and Family Developmen t, was created to recog- nize B.C. employers who have developed workplaces that support their employees' desire to balance com- mitments to life and to work and family. The WorkLife B.C. awards, in their second year, highlight companies that have recognized the need for employers to offer the flexibility to allow their workers to balance work and life.

The 2008 Award of Excellence recipient for Vancou- ver coastal region is Deloitte and Touche. This company of almost 700 employees in my riding has embraced a flexible work-life harmony program since 1998. Each year since then, worker satisfaction has in- creased. Their efforts have also resulted in their lowest turnover rates ever and more women than ever in sen- ior management and partner roles. Feedback from the yearly surveys has resulted in many additions to the wellness program, including personal care days, health and wellness subsidies, and elder care programs.

Please join me in congratulating all of the 2008 WorkLife B.C. award recipients and all the companies that are making British Columbia the best place to work, live and raise a family. EMERGENCY SERVICES DISPATCHERS C. Puchmayr: April 8 to 15 is Emergency Services Dispatchers Week in British Columbia. Emergency ser- vices dispatchers serve the public 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Often sitting behind computer terminals, they are the unsung heroes working to protect the health and safety of our communities. They are the first people that the public contacts when emergency assistance is required.

They coordinate all communications between police officers, firefighters and paramedics to ensure a safe, swift and appropriate response to each situation. [1355] Their work can often be hectic, with many calls coming in at the same time. It is undoubtedly a stress- ful line of work. When handling incoming calls, they have to question the callers carefully to determine the type, seriousness and locati on of the emergency. The callers can be angry, upset, in shock and frightened. The dispatchers have to work through these obstacles to get the necessary information in order to dispatch the appropriate response.

The call centre dispatchers can often give medical instructions to those on the scene until first responders arrive. On any given shift they may have to respond to calls from victims of theft, parents with missing children or people involved in accidents. They have even been known to assist in the delivery of newborn babies. I have toured the Kamloops dispatch centre, and I have seen firsthand the chor eographed buzz of activity that exists in the call centre. Some challenges do exist and still require action.

Th e CUPE members in the region are working diligently with management staff to ensure a resolve to addres s the working environment and the public safety in those offices. I invite all members in this House to join me in thanking these dedicated individuals who provide a vital link to emergency services in British Columbia. NATIONAL WILDLIFE WEEK D. MacKay: This week in Canada we are celebrat- ing National Wildlife Week. This is a program with the Canadian Wildlife Federati on in partnership with provincial governments, Environment Canada, Parks Canada and many others. National Wildlife Week was proclaimed

an act of Parliament in 1947. It is time for us to celebrate Can- ada's natural heritage and give us a chance to play an active role in conservation. This year's theme for National Wildlife Week is — wait for it — pollination. Pollination is a fundamental function of the ecosystem. Without pollination, many plants would be unable to reproduce, and we would suffer great losses in food, medicine, wood products and, of course, wildlife. British Columbia, in particular the northern part of the province, is home to a great variety of wild flora and fauna.

Many different an imals rely on these plants for food during the summer months to prepare them for the cold winter months. Without conservation programs to protect these food sources, we would see a great deal of animals threatened by extinction.

We should all try to make it our goal to, first of all, raise awareness about the im portance of wildlife and wildlife habitat, to inspire learning about the wildlife and the environment, to develop opportunities for British Columbians to participate in conservation through habitat conservation, to help wildlife by funding important wildlife research and to influence national policy. I know I want my four grandchildren to be able to enjoy the wilderness like I have. ENVER CREEK SECONDARY SCHOOL BAND H. Bains: In a recent trip out of the country I had a few hours' layover in Beijing airport.

I had the unexpected pleasure to run into a group of band students from Enver Creek Secondary, a high school in my constituency. Mr. Mike Jellema, the principal of Enver Creek Secon- dary, and Surrey school board trustee Laurae McNally enlightened me on the details of their trip. As it turned out, 75 students — accompanied by their principal, the band teacher Mr. Al Henderso n, school trustee Laurae McNally, three staff and 24 parents — went on the trip. The students fundraised for two years to raise money for this once-in-a-lifetime experience.

They sold chocolates and magazines, ha d a clothing drive, plant sales and even a manure sale to help pay for the cost of this trip. With the money they raised from their efforts and, of course, great support from their parents, they w e r e a b l e t o c o m e u p w i t h f u n d s f o r t h i s c u l t u r a l experience in China.

TUESDAY, APRIL 8, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 11053 The band played three different venues in Beijing and Sian, and they had the ra re experience of playing on the Great Wall of China. According to one parent, it was so windy that they had to pin their music sheets to the stand and hold the stands down with their feet so that they wouldn't blow away. They also had an oppor- tunity to drive by the Beijing 2008 Olympic site. It is an invaluable experience and a good lesson for these students to have a goal and raise money to accomplish that goal.

I'm sure the memories of this trip will last a lifetime. [1400] I would like this House to acknowledge the hard work of these students to se e their goal through, their parents who supported their efforts and the extraordi- nary staff we have in Surrey school district, who made this experience possible for these students. Oral Questions HOMELESSNESS C. James: Since the B.C. Liberals came to power, homelessness in Metro Vancouver has more than doubled. That's the news today from the Social Plan- ning and Research Council of B.C., who conducted a homelessness count in Vanc ouver and the suburbs.

These alarming numbers show that the B.C. Liberals have failed and that the Minister of Housing has consistently underestimated the problem when it comes to homelessness. Since 2002 homelessness in the Metro Vancouver area alone has gone up 131 percent. So my question is to the Minister of Housing. Will he finally admit that he has completely underestimated the homelessness crisis in British Columbia? Hon. R. Coleman: No number of persons homeless in British Columbia is acceptable to this government at any time, on any day, in any generation.

I actually expected, though , that the Leader of the Opposition would first of all get up and apologize on behalf of her critic, who has overestimated the housing across this province and scared people for the last two or three months in British Columbia. But I also actually thought that — on behalf of the member for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant, who wrote me a little over a year ago and begged me to buy the Carl Rooms hotel in her riding, with only 47 units — she might get up and thank me for buying 17 buildings in the city of Vancouver.

Nine additional buildings across the rest of the province of British Columbia are being turned into supportive housing. And boy, I'm waiting for the next question, because I've got so much more good news I'd like to pass on to the members opposite. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Leader of the Opposition has a supplemental. C. James: Well, it's extraordinar y.

It's extraordinary that this government would cheer and call a victory over a 131 percent increase in homelessness on our streets, and that this minister would stand here in this House and say that he has good news to share, when we see people living on the streets every single day. Every individual who walks in a community anywhere in our province can see the increase that has occurred under this government. Why has that happened? Because it's this govern- ment who actually cancelled housing programs that were in place in 2001 and 2002. The B.C.

Liberals froze the development of 1,700 affordable housing units and cancelled another thousand units of social housing that were going to be in place in 2002. They've been playing catch-up ever since. So my question is again to the Minister of Housing. Will he finally admit that the B.C. Liberal policy to can- cel social housing units has forced more people onto the streets in our province? Hon. R. Coleman: It's a 19 percent increase over the last three years in homelessness in the Greater Van- couver area. That's not acceptable to this government.

But you know, in 2001 in the province of British Co- lumbia, there were 1,300 units of supportive housing. Today there are over 5,000 units of supportive housing in the province. There are, hon. Member.… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. [1405] Hon. R. Coleman: In addition to that, there are another 895 units under construction in the province of British Columbia. I know that, much to the chagrin of the members opposite, we've signed MOUs on lands with four major municipalities in the province of Brit- ish Columbia to build over 2,000 additional units of supportive housing in the province. Mr.

Speaker: Leader of the Opposition has a fur- ther supplemental. C. James: There are a couple of statistics that the Housing Minister conveniently leaves out of his list of the Liberal record. That's the fact that homelessness has doubled, and we have the worst child poverty rate in this country here in British Columbia. That's the Liberal record. The 2010 Olympic organizers have said that they need 3,200 units of social housing to meet Vancou- ver's needs, but organizations across this province know that's not going to happen under this govern- ment. My question is to the Premier.

Will he admit that at the current rate of homelessness increasing and gov- ernment inaction, when the wo rld is looking at us in 2010 we will see a huge increase of people living on the streets? And that's unacceptable.

11054 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, APRIL 8, 2008 Hon. R. Coleman: Through to the members oppo- s i t e , I k n o w t h e y w e r e all about cutting ribbons and making announcements when they were government during the 1990s. I know that the budget when they left government was $120 million for housing in B.C. To- day it's $380 million.

I know the members opposite don't want to recognize the fact that over just the last year alone 2,400 people in the province of British Columbia that were homeless have been connected to housing and supports by our outreach program across the province, and over 80 percent of those people are still housed today.

I know there are 4,800 families in your communities and our communities in British Columbia, low-income families, that receive a cheque quietly every month in the rent assistance program to offset their rent so that they are not at risk of hous ing and they can change the lives of their children and improve their lot in life — I think that's very important — and 3,000 seniors house- holds on top of that. It is a remarkable set of achievements that have been taking place in housing. We have the units going into the ground to deal with this issue. We're going to continue to stand up for people in British Columbia.

We're going to solve the homeless issue — something they would never, ever have attempted in government. G. Gentner: The government and this ministry seem to treat the issue of homeless people as some sort of isolated incident — that it's a crisis out of sight, out of mind, living on the downtown fringe. However, this is no longer an isolated matter. Homeless people and their shopping carts are being found outside of Delta coffee shops. Dare I say that 80 people are now homeless in Langley, the minister's own constituency? That is remarkable.

We are witnessing a social and economic pandemic, a chronic condition that is reaching every community in the province, whether rich or poor. When will the minister admit that under his gov- ernment's watch, people who are homeless have spread well beyond the inner city and now into the very heart of suburban British Columbia? Hon. R. Coleman: I'm glad you brought up my community of Langley, because it's one of the commu- nities in British Columbia that stepped up with some leadership by putting some land on the table and zoning it. A neighbouring municipality put up a million dollars. We put up the money.

We're building the Gateway of Hope, which will have supportive housing and new shelter capacity in the city of Langley — because our people out there actually have a heart and actually will invest and actually will back up projects in their com- munity and work with municipalities. [1410] D. Thorne: Since 2002 I have been sitting on the Tri- Cities Homelessness Task Force, watching the numbers of homeless people in the Tri-Cities grow. Now we all know that the numbers since 2005 alone have grown 157 percent in the Tri-Cities, and this government sits there and claps. It is astounding to me.

It is more than shameful. How they can clap, I do not know. This shocking number is unacceptable. It's unac- ceptable to my community, and it should be unaccept- able to the minister who consistently says: "I have it all under control. It's fine. I have it all under control." Every single study, every si ngle report that we have seen says that the numbers coming out of this govern- ment are wrong. Question.

I would like to know today if this minis- ter is ever going to commit to funding and building the thousands and thousands of new units of affordable housing that we need to a ddress this shameful, shame- ful crisis. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. R. Coleman: I'm glad the member opposite has sat on that committee in the Tri-Cities since 2003. Maybe she could explain to this House why a project that was put forward by the YWCA spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to take it through the process and got turned down to support housing for women in that community.

Because the opportunity was actually brought to the attention as a result of that, that municipality finally did step up with a piece of land. It just recently finally allowed a project to go fo rward in that community, which would help people with supportive housing in British Columbia. Guess who is the major funder on that project. The government of British Columbia.

Maybe I'll just repeat a little bit of math for the member opposite — 1,300 supportive housing units in 2001; over 5,000 units of supportive housing in 2008, with 895 more under construction; and commitments with municipalities to over 2,000 additional units across the province of British Columbia. Yeah, we have a challenge with homelessness, but you know what? We're stepping up to the plate to fight it and find long- term solutions for it. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. D. Thorne: I would like to answer the question the minister has put to me, if I may. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Members.

D. Thorne: When I get asked a question, I expect to give an answer. Mr. Speaker: Member, just take your seat for a second. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Members.

TUESDAY, APRIL 8, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 11055 D. Thorne: Speaking about facts, I would like to know why the minister doesn't even know the status of his own project in Coquitlam. That's what I would like to know. The project he's speaking of, the YWCA project, is not at all as he describes it. It hasn't even gone to public hearing, let alone been turned down. So we have noth- ing in the Tri-Cities. We have…. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Members. D. Thorne: In the Tri-Cities since 2005….

We have a mat program that I imagine is included in the minister's figures, the same figures that we hear over and over again and are sick of hearing. We would like to hear about new advances for homelessness problems. Hon. R. Coleman: The fact was that the YWCA had an original project that didn't go ahead. Then your municipality finally woke up and put up some land. Interjections. Hon. R. Coleman: Good. We'll be there to fund the project. That's what I said.

It's absolutely remarkable to me that this opposition won't stand up to the fact that members of their own caucus have actually written and begged me to buy buildings in their communities. [1415] Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. R. Coleman: One building. The member for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant — one building; 17 build- ings in the city of Vancouver alone, all connected into a system of supports so our outreachers have some place to connect people so that we can reduce homelessness in the province of British Columbia. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Members. J.

Brar: Denial, failure to understand the problem and failure to take responsibility is the trademark of this minister. The facts are that the number of homeless people in the province has doubled since these people took over. The facts are that we have the highest child poverty in the country since these people took over for the last four years. I will try one more question. We have learned to- day that the homelessness crisis in Surrey has gone from bad to worse. As for the new count, Surrey has only 79 shelter beds for 386 homeless people.

That means only 20 percent of people can have a place to sleep at night at any given time. The number of shelter beds remained the same since the last count, and the number of homeless people has gone up significantly. Shelter beds are not homes. My question to the minister is: can the minister commit today if his gov- ernment will build the necessary units of affordable housing for the people of Surrey and when? Hon. R. Coleman: Shelter beds are not homes. In actual fact, that's why we have outreach workers in our shelters when we actually went 24-7, so that we could connect them into housing and supports.

That's why 2,500 people have been connected into housing, who were homeless in British Columbia in just the past year alone. Over triple the budget in just the last few years. Investments that are absolutely incredible. Every juris- diction across this country…. I recently met with all the Housing ministers across Canada, who were absolutely flabbergasted at the resources that are being poured into housing in the province of British Columbia com- pared to their resources across this country. They are looking at our programs because they know we're connecting people into housing and sup- ports.

They are looking at our programs, where we're doing renovations. They're looking at our programs where we're putting in clinical help for people that need it in British Columbia. They're looking at our programs that we're going to do at Willingdon and Riverview for those that are really, really hard to house. They're say- ing: "We applaud British Columbia for leading the way in Canada." D. Chudnovsky: This minister can bray and snort all he wants, and his buddies on the other side can clap and laugh when we're talking about homelessness in British Columbia in 2008. They can do that if they want.

But what the minister ha s to do is open his eyes like everybody else in British Columbia, because every- one in British Columbia whose eyes are open knows that we have a crisis of homelessness. This morning the Metro Vancouver figures came out — a 364 percent increase in street-level homeless- ness in Vancouver since 2002. Not some other century, not some other government. This government, this minister, this Premier. Explain to the people of British Columbia how you let this happen on your watch. [1420] Hon. R.

Coleman: Well, that's rich, coming from the member opposite, who has been blustering around the province that there are 10,000 homeless people in British Columbia for the last two or three months. It's rich, coming from the member opposite, who I know woke up this morning so disappointed that the num- bers weren't as high as you thought they were. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Take your seat. Interjections.

11056 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, APRIL 8, 2008 Mr. Speaker: Members. Members. Hon. R. Coleman: The truth hurts. Interjections. Hon. R. Coleman: There are 2,000…. Yeah, I mean, the member opposite spent the last few months telling British Columbians, raising the issue, saying that the number that he had was way different from what the government predicted. By the way, this is very close to what I predicted. We said that we were building… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Continue, Minister. Hon. R. Coleman: …a foundation to deal with home- lessness in the province of British Columbia.

It started with 2,500 people that were homeless last year, who have been connected into housing supports in the province of British Columbia, and 28 buildings in your communities and ours across the province are being renovated into housing supports for people in this province. The construction program that's going on and has been going on for supportive housing in the province of British Columbia is raising those numbers exponen- tially to the fact that our relationships will take this number way over 7,000 units in the next couple years. Mr. Speaker: Member has a supplemental. D.

Chudnovsky: The minister and I will have the opportunity, and I look forward to it, to unpack the numbers that he presents in this House. I am totally confident that the figures we have put forward will be vindicated. But I want to ask the minister this. Has he been, as I was last week, to Prince Ge orge and to Vanderhoof, to Burns Lake, to Hazelton, to Smithers and to Terrace and met and spoken with those people who are home- less? He sits here with his crowd, and they clap and they laugh about homelessness in B.C.

I'll tell you what happened in 2002 that has resulted, in great measure, in the crisis of homelessness we have today in British Columbia. In 2002 they cancelled the social housing program in British Columbia that ex- isted. If it had simply gone ahead, we would have more than 4,000 additional un its in this province. They made it much harder for people to get on welfare. In- come assistance isn't what it should be in this province. And that's the explanation.

I challenge this minister to stand up in this House and tell us that those two actions of this government did not contribute to the crisis of homelessness in Brit- ish Columbia. Hon. R. Coleman: W e l l , w e b o u g h t t h e B a c k - packers Inn in Prince George and are developing a project in Prince George wi th the city in cooperation with non-profit organizations in that city. The member opposite should get his facts straight on one thing, though. We did review the housing pro- jects that were in process in 2001 when we became government, and — to the member opposite — they got built.

Don't confuse a review with cancelling the units. So try and put your facts where the actual facts are. I'm glad to have the debate in estimates. He's going to question the numbers by a group of non-profit organizations he supports that went out and did the Metro Vancouver count. I didn't do the count. You didn't do the count. They di d the count. We look at the count and see that there are 2,500 people today that we're concerned about with homelessness in British Columbia.

We know we've got over 2,500 units in process on the Lower Mainland of British Columbia. [1425] We are going to attack this aggressively like we have, and we will continue to, because on this side of the House we have a commitment to deal with home- lessness in the province of British Columbia. INDEPENDENCE OF REPRESENTATIVE FOR CHILDREN AND YOUTH N. Simons: Last week the Chair of the Select Stand- ing Committee on Children and Youth wrote a letter to the independent representative suggesting that the gov- ernment should be allowed to make amendments to her upcoming report, referring to this as collaboration.

The representative's office was created because of this gov- ernment's repeated attempts to hide the truth, and now they're trying to do it again under this guise of collabora- tion. British Columbians demanded an independent representative, not a semi-independent representative. My question is to the Minister of Children and Family Development. Does he think that it's appropri- ate for his ministry to interfere with the independence of the representative's office by trying to influence the content of her report and the timing of its release? Hon. T.

Christensen: If any member of this House doubts the independence of the Representative for Children and Youth, I'd actually commend them to read the Representative for Children and Youth Act, unanimously passed by this House. It clearly sets out that the representative is independent. The only thing that provides any direction to the representative is the act itself. I have full confidence, based on any conver- sation that I have ever had with the representative about the Ministry of Children and Family Develop- ment, that she will act wh olly independent and in a capable manner. Mr.

Speaker: The member has a supplemental. N. Simons: The integrity of the representative is not at question; it's the integrity of this government. The representative has been waiting for the committee to set a date so that she can release her report in committee, but the Chair is now suggesting that that

TUESDAY, APRIL 8, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 11057 meeting is only going to take place once that collabora- tion I referred to earlier takes place. Wouldn't it be a better use of the ministry's re- sources to deal with the issues on the front line that the social workers have been telling him about many, many months and years past, instead of spending all time and resources on issues management and spin control? Hon. T.

Christensen: I think it's clear, based on comments that I have made in the past, comments that members of the select standing committee have made in the past and comments that the representative has made in the past, that we all desire that the ministry be working collaboratively with the representative to en- sure that she has the most fulsome information possi- ble in preparing her report. I think that great im- provements have been made in respect of sharing of information, ensuring the ministry understands the information that the representative is looking for, and that that is provided.

I would hope that all members of this House would take great interest and encourage that degree of collabo- ration and that they would want the ministry to have an opportunity to provide a response to any recommenda- tions that the representative may come forward with, to ensure that the public has a clear idea of what the recommendations are from the representative and how the ministry then intends to deal with those recommendations. L. Krog: What is clear from what has been said is that the minister or his staff must have been aware of the Chair's actions.

The Chair' s letter clearly states that he is bringing forward the co ncerns of the ministry to the child and youth representative. The question is very simple. Does the minister con- done this clumsy attempt to stifle the independence of the child and youth representative? [1430] Hon. T. Christensen: I have seen the letter that the Chair of the select standing committee sent to the representative.

I have seen that the letter reflects conversations where the Chair said that he had asked the minister and he had asked the representative about the degree of collaboration, ag ain, in trying to ensure that full information was exchanged. Members will recall that in November the representa- tive issued a report. There were great fireworks around that, and it was fully agreed that we needed to ensure a collaborative exercise in terms of the preparation of the reports and an opportunity to respond to the report.

If the ministry does not re spond, it certainly doesn't give the public the insight th ey need in terms of what then is going to happen with the recommendations. So I would hope that all members would encourage that the ministry respond to recommendations provided by the child and youth representative. [End of question period.] Introductions by Members H. Bains: Visiting this great House and within the vicinity is Dr. Cheema, who is a member of the Legislative Assembly of Punjab, and joining him are Randeep Singh Sarai and Gurminder Singh, a successful accountant from Surrey.

Will the House please make them welcome. Orders of the Day Hon. M. de Jong: In this chamber, I call second reading debate of Bill 19, the Electoral Districts Act, and in

Section A, I call Committee of Supply — for the information of members, the estimates of the Ministry of Agriculture and Lands. Second Reading of Bills ELECTORAL DISTRICTS ACT Hon. W. Oppal: I move that Bill 19, the Electoral Districts Act, now be read a second time. This bill implements the direction given to govern- ment by this House on the 13th of March, when the House endorsed Motion 39. That motion called for the adoption of the final recommendations of the Electoral Boundaries Commission as mo dified by the alternative proposals made by the commission for the north and the Cariboo-Thompson regions.

Those alternative proposals are contained in appendix P of the commission's report. The Electoral Boundaries Commission travelled the province to hear from British Columbians. They held 40 public meetings and received dozens of written submissions. They grappled with the difficult task of balancing the competing needs of British Columbians in urban and rural areas of the province. I would like to take this opportunity to thank the commissioners for their work, the hon. Mr. Justice Bruce Cohen of the Supreme Court of British Columbia, who was the commission's chair; Mr. Stewart Ladyman; and Mr.

Harry Neufeld, Chief Electoral Officer for British Columbia. Our province is large and blessed with diverse geography and a varied pattern of settlement over history. Today we are growing, we are vibrant, and we have a population of over four million people. The challenge for political representation is that recent population increases, for the most part, have happened in the urban areas of the province. [K. Whittred in the chair.] Today in British Columbia, 85 percent of the popu- lation lives on 16 percent of the land.

Rural districts have lower populations, bu t these populations are of- ten widely dispersed, making political representation challenging for their MLAs. Representing urban areas is challenging in different ways. While populations are grouped more densely, they are larger and often more ethnically and linguistically diverse. [1435]

11058 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, APRIL 8, 2008 This bill implements what this House believes to be the best way to ensure effective representation for all British Columbians. Specifically, the bill would create 85 electoral districts for British Columbia, up from the current 79. It would maintain the current number of districts in the north and Cariboo-Thompson regions of the province and add six new electoral districts to the faster-growing areas of the province — the Okanagan, the Lower Mainland and the capital region. The areas and boundaries of the new districts are set out in

schedule 2 of the b ill. For the first time, this

schedule does not have the lengthy verbal description of the boundaries known as metes and bounds. In- stead, it confirms that th e areas and boundaries are those as described on official versions of CD-ROMs created by the Electoral Boundaries Commission. The CD-ROMs contain maps and geographic coordinates for all the districts. The commission, through Elections B.C., accessed the province's GIS digital mapping technology. This technology permits highly accurate maps to be drawn without using the physical land surveying required with metes and bounds.

It permitted the commission to produce maps more quickly, more cheaply and with less likelihood of material error, since it uses coordi- nates of latitude and longitude, which unlike physical landmarks do not change. This method of describing electoral boundaries is a first in Canada.

Section 2 of the bill is divided into two parts. The first

part contains 77 of the 85 districts, whose bounda- ries are contained on the CD-ROM produced by the commission on the date it released its final report. These 77 districts would be implemented as recom- mended by the commission. The second part of

schedule 2 contains eight dis- tricts. These are the district s whose boundaries change under the alternative scenarios in appendix P of the commission's report. Their boundaries are contained on a separate CD-ROM produced by the commission. The disks and their data ar e on file with the Chief Electoral Officer, who is also a member of the com- mission. As the independent officer of the Legislature responsible for administering elections in the province, his office would be respon sible for implementing the new districts and their boundaries.

In the run-up to the May 2009 general election, this would include creating even more detailed maps that subdivide electoral dis- tricts into smaller voting areas. As a final note, I should confirm that this bill addresses electoral districts under our current single- member-plurality electoral system, commonly known as first-past-the-post. The commission made parallel recommendations for the si ngle transferable vote system, or STV. Whether these boundaries will be enacted will depend upon the outcome of the pro- vincial referendum on STV to be held at the time of the next provincial election in May 2009. J.

Kwan: Bill 19 implements Motion 39, as we know, regarding the new electoral boundaries. It was approved by this House on March 13, 2008. Bill 19 sets out the parameters for the new Legislative Assembly based on the February 14, 2008, Electoral Boundaries Commission report, which outlines 85 seats with boundaries for 77 of those seats determined by the Electoral Boundaries original proposal and the boundaries for eight rural seats based on the Electoral Boundaries Commission's appendix P. The names of the constituencies are spelled out in

schedule 1 of the bill, and the areas and the boundaries are set out in

schedule 2. I won't go into those details on this item. The opposition is in support of this bill. I want to state very clearly the reasons why, but we also want to put on record some of the concerns which were high- lighted already when Motion 39 was debated. [1440] [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] We are in support of the b ill based on the fact that it protects rural representation. That representation was arrived at independently by the Electoral Boundaries Commission.

There was no political interference, such as what, quite frankly, the Premier tried to do earlier than this bill being implem ented and earlier than Mo- tion 39 being tabled in the House. We also want to put on notice, as we did when we debated to have Motion 39, that whether or not the government has done its homework on the legality of this bill and that…. Of course we want to ensure that the government has done its due diligence in this regard. We are concerned that this could potentially be chal- lenged in the courts.

We trust that the Attorney General has done his homework to en sure that the legality of this bill stands and that it would not be subject to a legal challenge. As mentioned earlier, when the government brought this whole issue before the House, the government had actually botched it up right from the get-go. They botched the appointment of the non-partisan commis- sioners. The government's original legislation was in- adequate for preserving rural representation.

That was the government's doing, members of the House — all members of the House — and it was the opposition who raised that issue when the first report was tabled. It was the opposition who stood up for rural communities right from the get-go. You've got to ask the question: where was the Premier on this, if he was so concerned about rural representation? In those early days he was nowhere to be found. The Premier had failed to speak up for rural B.C. Then the government went to compound this issue with an attempt of political interference by the Premier.

Bill 39 was attempted to be brought into this House, which would add seats in areas that actually would dilute rural representation. How is that for rural repre- sentation protection? The government failed to do that with Bill 39, and of course, at the end of the day the government eventually let that legislation die on the order paper.

TUESDAY, APRIL 8, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 11059 It was also the Premier's political interference that caused the commission to cancel its fall hearings and left little time for consultation. That was the govern- ment's doing as well. In their final report, th e commissioners put forward appendix P. Appendix P puts forward their independent response to the issue of representation in the north and Cariboo-Thompson areas. The Electoral Boundaries Commission was unable to recommend it because the government failed to provid e the necessary statutory support.

Therefore, the government must take responsi- bility for its mismanagement of the file. That's really the history of this file. We're now at the introduction of this bill and a second reading of this bill — Bill 19, the Electoral Districts Act — and it is incumbent on all of us to recall the history of where this came from and where we're at. We want to be very clear that on the opposition side, we will support this bill. Right from the beginning, we said that we want to ensure rural representation, and this bill does that in an independent way.

More to the point, I would like to hear reassurances from the Attorney General that he has done his homework, that the legalities around this bill are assured and that it will not be subject to a legal challenge in the courts and therefore throw chaos into the Legislative Assembly should that happen. Those are my comments for Bill 19, and I look for- ward to hearing other members on this bill and look forward to committee debate, a clause-by-clause debate with respect to Bill 19. Mr. Speaker: Seeing no further speakers, the Attorney General closes debate. Hon. W.

Oppal: I move second reading of Bill 19. [1445] Motion approved. Hon. W. Oppal: I move that Bill 19 be referred to the Committee of the Whole House to be considered at the next sitting after today. Bill 19, Electoral Districts Act, read a second time and referred to a Committee of the Whole House for consid- eration at the next sitting of the House after today. Hon. R. Thorpe: I call Bill 16, entitled Greenhouse Gas Reduction (Renewable and Low Carbon Fuel Requirements) Act — continuation of debate. GREENHOUSE GAS REDUCTION (RENEWABLE AND LOW CARBON FUEL REQUIREMENTS) ACT (continued) On the amendment (continued).

B. Lekstrom: I rise to speak to this bill. There's a referral motion on the floor at the present time. The member for Malahat–Juan de Fuca, prior to the adjournment of the debate earlier this morning, had moved a referral motion, wanting to virtually hoist this bill. That's what it would do. It would take the bill off of the order paper and put it out of our ability to talk about and discuss and pass here in this Legislative Assembly. [K. Whittred in the chair.] The reasons were really hi s concerns. He's expressed a concern whether it be food for fuel.

That debate is tak- ing place now across the country and in some cases across the world. But I'm telling you, Madam Speaker, that I rise to speak against his referral motion. I c o m e f r o m a n a g r i c u l t u r a l a r e a o f t h i s p r o v i n c e , the Peace River country. I believe it's 98 percent of the grains and oilseeds that are grown in this province are grown in the Peace country. We're very proud of that. But I can tell you that the farmers I represent have not always had an easy time making a living.

They work on the land, and they provide our food that I think we all, over the years — not just in British Co- lumbia but certainly, I think, in Canada — have taken for granted. We have taken our food for granted for a long, long time. We've never in the past seemed to want to recog- nize the importance of the agricultural industry and what it means to society.

We haven't worried a great deal when prices have been at an all-time low for our grains and oilseed sector — when they've struggled to seed the next year's crop, when many of them haven't been able to have the finances because of low prices from the previous year to actually put seed in the ground for the harvest in the fall.

Now that we're diversifying the opportunities for agriculture in this province, I guess I'm somewhat miffed that somebody would think that's a bad deal — that somebody would want to plant the seed that food for fuel is a bad thing and th at we should only look at growing our grains and oilsee ds for nothing more than food supply. The issue of biofuels, whether it be grain and ethanol or canola and biodiesel: "It's bad for the population. It's bad for society." It's good for the farmer. It is finally great that our agricultural industry is diversifying their markets where they can market their product.

But the most important thing is that nobody is tellin g the farmers they have to sell it into this market or that market. They have their own choice. They're going to be able to look at where they can get the best dollar for the product that they produce, and they're going to be able to make a living — a good living, hopefully. I think that's important. We talk about the ability of blending fuels. I think everybody realizes the federal government has man- dated that by 2010 for gasoline and 2012 for diesel fuel. So it is going to happen, and I fully support that.

There was some discussion about the fertilizers that are going into the ground and what's going to take place. From my experience in growing up in the Peace country…. I can tell you that the farmers I

11060 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, APRIL 8, 2008 know, whether they're growing grains and oilseeds, whether they're cattle ranc hers or bison ranchers, whether they're producing sheep…. They understand the land base. They understand what it takes to grow crops and to make sure that the land is fertile in that soil. So no one better — certainly not government, not our government or the opposition — is in a position to tell a farmer what he needs to know about making sure his soil is fertile. He knows that.

I'm not too concerned about the fertilizers that will be utilized, whether we're talking about a different strain of canola when it comes to biofuels or biodiesel, or whether we talk about the grains when it comes to etha- nol. If that opportunity avails itself to our agricultural industry, I think it would be a great day. [1450] I represent my agricultural community in the Peace River country with great pride.

At every opportunity I get to speak in this House or around this province in my role as Parliamentary Secretary for Rural Develop- ment, I am sure — and I've said this numerous times, with no disrespect to any other industry — there is no more important industry on this planet than agricul- ture — none. They provide our food supply, and now the opportunity is there for them to actually diversify their markets and allow us to help with the reduction of the greenhouse gases that seem to be affecting this world in a negative way. Again, Madam Speaker, I want to tell you that I am opposed to this.

I believe the member for Malahat–Juan de Fuca moved it with good intentions, but I do have the ability and have been raised in the Peace country all of my life. This last year was a good year for our grains and oilseeds sector — one of the best years, proba- bly, in the last 30. We've seen prices increase, which is something that is long overdue. For the people that are concerned, whether it's food for fuel…. Some people have said food or fuel. I think that's a mistake. Certainly, it wasn't the member that presented the referral motion.

Many of these people should have a look inside themselves and ask them- selves whether they think they've taken agriculture for granted, and the cheap food policy that we seem to have enjoyed in this country. At the end of the day, when the price of a loaf of bread goes up, there's a lot of concern in the public. Whether it be beef going up or so on, at the end of the day the farmer isn't putting more money in his pocket. It's been that way for 40 years. We talk about the Greenhouse Gas Reduction (Re- newable and Low Carbon Fuel Requirements) Act and the referral motion that's on the floor before us.

I have to oppose that — again, with the utmost respect to my colleague in the opposition from Malahat–Juan de Fuca. I think he probably moved the referral motion with the best of intent. I do understand agriculture, and I take great pride in that. To think that we may hamper the ability of our farm and agricultural sector to pick the markets that they choose to sell into is wrong. They right now are enjoying some all-time high prices for their product. Whether it be wheat, whether it be canola or whether it be barley — we're seeing some good prices, and I'm happy for them.

The rural community in which I live doesn't sur- vive on the boundaries of our municipality. We survive as a region, and we survive because the agricultural community supports those rural communities. That's how we built a better province. Representing an area that develops, I believe, 98 percent of the grains and oilseeds in British Columbia and seeing a bill that will allow some diversification — and certainly new markets, po ssibly, for our farmers in our grains and oilseeds sector — is a good thing. It is a great thing. If anything I could say in this debate on the issue of food or fuel or food for fuel….

If it can bring to light to the people of British Columbia the importance of what our agricultural sector mean s to each and every one of us as British Columbians and to each and every one of us as citizens on this planet, I'll tell you that I would accept that debate for doing something good. That's what we have to do . We have to begin to recog- nize what agriculture means. For as long as I've been alive, I've watched farmers make a living. I've watched them struggle, year in and year out on occasion, and never waver from their land and their commitment to it.

Farming and agriculture is not about going into it to get rich. I can tell you that I think that's a fair state- ment. It's about a way of life. It's about a commitment to their animals or their herd. It's about a commitment to the land base and the soil wh ich they make their living from. So I will oppose the referral that's on the floor, which is to virtually lift Bill 16 from the floor of this Legislative Assembly. I'm going to vote against that referral, and I'm going to vote in favour of this bill, because I believe it does a number of things.

It not only allows us to address the issue of the environment in a better way, but it's also going to enhance the opportunities for the agricultural sector that I represent in Peace River South. I know the minister from Peace River North. Agri- culture is very large in his area as well, as it is in other areas of the province. Primarily, what we're spea king about when we talk about food for fuel…. There's a couple, and I'll speak to a couple. The ethanol industry, the ability to develop ethanol through grain — it isn't happening yet. It's been looked at for a long time.

There are economic is- sues that have to be looked at, but that's one. [1455] The other is canola. We can use canola for the production of biodiesel. We're very close to developing a plant in the Peace River area as I speak today here in the Legislature. This plant is not by some large multinational looking to make a dollar. This is by our farmers. The people that actually make their living off the land and farm it and take great care are coming together to put together a biodiesel facility in which they can market their canola.

Before I close, I want to again speak to the referral, speak to my opposition of this referral based on the fact

TUESDAY, APRIL 8, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 11061 that…. It actually will give our agricultural sector more diversified markets to market this, it will actually allow people to make a living, and the money that they make is reinvested. Their children go to the schools in our communities. They play mino r hockey. They do ballet. They take their music lessons. When our agriculture sector has a good year, I think it shows across this province. We all enjoy the food they produce. We all enjoy the diversified markets that they'll enjoy in order to make a living.

There's no doubt in my mind that this question is not food or fuel. It is food and fuel, and that 's where we're headed with the agricultural sector and the issue of new fuel sources in this province. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, for the chance to speak to this. Again, I will oppose this referral motion that's on the floor. M. Karagianis: I'm happy to stand and speak to both the bill and the motion to refer.

In fact, it should b e n o s e c r e t i n t h i s H o u s e t h a t I h a v e b e e n a s t r o n g proponent of biodiesel since I first became elected, and I h a v e s p o k e n h e r e i n t h i s H o u s e o n m a n y o c c a s i o n s about biodiesel and about the future of alternative fuel use here in British Columbia. I was anticipating looking in to the details of this bill to see exactly what it offered up.

My first declaration here in the House was in February 2006, when I talked in this House about us seeking out more understanding and more policy on alternat ive fuels and talked about biodiesel as being one of the viable alternative fuels. In April 2006, in fact, I questioned the minister responsible for Energy and Mines about biodiesel. We had a considerable dialogue, and I asked the minister what kind of plan there was in the future for biodiesel or biofuel. There appeared to be nothing in the three- to-five-year plan at that time, in April of 2006.

The minister said — and I quote from Hansard here: "The alternative fuels, biodiesel and ethanol…. Although we do some out of this ministry, most of the responsi- bility will be with the Ministry of Environment on those things. I can't tell you that we have a five-year plan on biodiesel." Well, here we are a couple of years later, and appar- ently we do have a plan. Things have changed dramati- cally, and it is being introduced not by the Ministry of Environment but by the Minister of Energy and Mines. Having had that discussion with the minister, I was very interested to see what the bill contained.

I have certainly, over the past number of years, challenged this government numerous times on the biodiesel file. So when I got the bill, when we first saw the bill, I pored through it to see exactly what it contained. It broke down into three clear parts, as explained in the explanatory note here. The first pertains specifically to the percentage of renewable fuel that would be included in policy…. Hon. R. Neufeld: Just a point of order, Madam Speaker. We are debating the notice of motion from the member for Malahat–Juan de Fuca about sending this bill to a legislative committee in regards to a number of items.

We're not actually discussing the bill at the present time. We're actually discussing the motion to refer it. [1500] Deputy Speaker: The member is allowed to develop arguments about why the bill should be referred. Continue, member. M. Karagianis: It is my intention to do that exactly, to develop all of my rationale for my support of the motion to refer. When I looked at the thr ee components of this, one which was very interesting to me immediately was the issue of a prescribed percentage of renewable fuel in the fuel supply.

Because of my keen personal interest and having stood in the House and discussed and promoted the concept of biodiesel, I was very inter- ested to see exactly what was contained in this bill with regard to either biodiesel or bioethanol. Of course, the first thing that was obvious is that the nature of this bill does not include any kind of dif- ferentiation around bioethanol or biodiesel. In fact, that is a very compelling discussion that's taking place worldwide.

I think that it is very imperative for us to consider that debate going on between the efficacy of both bioethanol and biodiese l as being a consideration here. As I have had a keen interest and have taken a personal step in my own life to use biodiesel as a step towards alternative fuels, I have watched with great interest the growing concern between the use of bio- diesel and bioethanol, and the impacts that it has, has had and is having worldwide. In fact, a few years ago, there was a really keen movement towards ethanol. This happened some time ago. It's not a recent development.

The implementation of ethanol has been slowly gaining momentum over a considerable number of years, and it is now, as we look to alternative fuels across the world, that a crisis has begun to grow around the concerns with the impacts of bioethanol on the planet. The use of both biodiesel and ethanol — ethanol throughout the United States and South America, and the use of biodiesel in Europe…. They are going through two billion litres of biodiesel a year in Europe right now. This is a very se rious consideration for all of us who believe in alternative fuels.

And, frankly, we on this side of the House do believe that we have to look to alternative fuels as bridging opportunities before the next iteration for how we will travel and transport goods and services comes into being. Who knows what that will be in the long-term future? I know that the government itself has promoted the idea of hydrogen — again, another highly questionable alternative fuel. But the gove rnment has taken quite an endeavour here to promote the concept of hydrogen.

Whether or not that is going to have some bearing on the future, I think the policy with this Bill 16 is the ra- tionale here for this motion to refer.

11062 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, APRIL 8, 2008 I will read here from a report from the Progressive States Network in the U.S. entitled Promoting Smart Biofuels Policy at the State Level . I think it's summed up very nicely here. "Biofuels policies are complex. The urgency and excitement surrounding renewable energy can result in oversight of negative environmental consequences if policy is not designed to encourage the most energy- efficient versions of biofuels.

Ensuring that biofuels are developed in a sustainable manner will lead to long-term gains and finally help wean us off our oil addiction." Madam Speaker, there is one of the very keystones of why the motion to refer is supportable. It's because there is a complex debate going on about bioethanol, about biodiesel, about other alternative fuels and what the long-term sustainability of these is and what the impact will be. [1505] Not just here — I heard the previous speaker talk about farming in the Peace. And with great respect, absolutely, farming in the Peace…. Probably there are great opportunities there.

But this discussion is not about farming in the Peace or raising bioethanol in the Peace River. This is about the entire debate around bioethanol, biodiesel, other alternative fuels and what the sustainability of those ar e, both in the near future and the long-term future. The debate is shifting, somewhat like climate change. In fact, there is a lot of contrary science on this. You can find lots of arguments for and against both of these alternative fuels that we're discussing here today, as well as hydrogen.

So it concerns me greatly that without any kind of insight from this bill into what the real policies will be and whether or not there will be very distinct language around us using a strong sustainability lens on any policies in the future…. As one of the leading countries in the developed world, we owe it to ourselves to think not just of what's happening in the Peace or within our own boundaries but, if we make these choices, what the long-term impacts are worldwide? These debates are taking place all over the world.

They're taking place in Euro pe, where they have been much more advanced than we have in their use of bio- energy and alternative fuels; in South America, where Brazil is very, very far alon g on the use of bioethanol within their own transportati on sector. I think they've reached levels of about 50 percent of the usage of bio- ethanol within their transportation sectors. Now, they're looking seriously at what the long-term impacts are within that country on th e rain forest, on the long- term sustainability against food securities.

If those kind of consid erations are taking place elsewhere in the world, I think we owe it here…. As a leading country within the developed nations, as well as a province that purports itself to be leading the way in Canada, I think it's really imperative for us to take a long and hard look and have a debate and do some in- depth research into this debate and determine how we are going to move forward at this point and craft poli- cies as supporting documents to this bill.

A bill without that supporting information doesn't tell us anything, doesn't give us any kind of reassurance that the issue of sustainability is going to be a key part of our decisions on what we use and how we use it and how we will legislate it in the future. The second part of the bill here talks about carbon intensity. I was very fortunate, and I thank the minister's staff for giving me and the member for Malahat–Juan de Fuca a briefing on the bill, where we actually raised some of the questions that we're raising here in the House today with this motion to refer.

One of the things that the minister's staff referred to is…. Deputy Speaker: Member, may I remind you that the motion is specific in terms of the items to be discussed, which are food security, sustainability and secrecy. I be- lieve that in your last remark you were straying from those points. M. Karagianis: Everything I'm saying here is about sustainability, about food security, absolutely, and I will get to the issue of secrecy shortly. Deputy Speaker: Member, will you be sure that you address your remarks to those points. M. Karagianis: Yes, I will. I did not believe I was straying from those.

In fact, the motion to refer here comes very directly out of conversations we had with the minis- ter's staff, where the minister's staff talked about a concept around carbon intensity. The reference point here was from well to wheel, as the process and the continuity link by which you judge carbon intensity. That is, what does it take to get the petroleum product out of the well? What does it take to get it to the marketplace? What are the car- bon impacts each step of the way, from the time you drill, to the time you transport it, to the time it burns in your automobile?

That's what the carbon intensity quotient is going to be. It's a key part of this bill. I would say that, given the fact we are talking about alternative biofuels, there should be a new considera- tion here, which is from field to wheel — not just from well to wheel, because we are talking here about the carbon intensity that is produced from products that are either food security products or agricultural products or, in some cases, waste products. [1510] Frankly, when we're talking about waste products, e v e n , w e h a v e t o b e v e r y c a r e f u l .

I t h i n k t h a t t h e biodiesel industry itself is moving towards sustainability on using waste product to create biodiesel. But if we're trucking these products halfway across the country, like we would be with hydrogen, then our carbon intensity on that would be extreme. It's not just what burns in your vehicle when you turn the ignition on. It is about every step of the way. So I would say that we need to think about field-to- wheel as being one of the co mponents of this, not just well-to-wheel. The second part of this bill, where it talks about carbon intensity, speaks ag ain very much to the need,

TUESDAY, APRIL 8, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 11063 within this motion to refer, for us to give that as a new consideration, because that's not being considered. I will tell you from my understanding of the briefing I r e c e i v e d f r o m s t a f f t h a t t h a t i s n o t p a r t o f t h e i r quotient — looking at what that price is. What is the carbon intensit y price? What is the envi- ronmental price that we would pay for these products if w e a r e t r u c k i n g t h e m f r o m a l o n g d i s t a n c e , i f w e are extracting them from no n-sustainable agricultural products?

If we are trucking or transporting them half- way across the country, like wi th hydrogen, then that's creating a different carbon intensity than what you would see on the surface of it. I'd like to see that con- sidered, and that will only come about if we can have this debate under the motion to refer, where we can look more critically at this. The third part of this is around the administrative and enforcement part of the act. This is where the motion to refer directly sp eaks to the issue around freedom of information.

We've heard from the freedom- of-information office themselves that there are a great number of concerns around this bill and another sub- sequent sort of partner bill to this. I would say that all of the reasons for supporting this motion to refer are reflected right here in the very nature of the bill itself and the issues that I believe have not been taken under serious consideration. I am a huge proponent of biodiesel and of using sustainable products in order to create that biodiesel. I have a great number of suspicions around ethanol.

Ethanol has been something that has been — actually, let's be frank — used to eke out the oil and gas industry's hold on the transportation se ctors across the world. It came from the oil and gas industry itself. They have taken control of this. It has now become a huge controversial issue around the world. So I'm highly suspicious of that. I think it bears a second, deeper look and more re- search on the part of government before they institute something here that could turn into a bigger world controversy in the future. We could discover, because we've not been careful about how we set up the policies on this….

We have not put a sustainability lens on here that included field-to-wheel. We've not looked at the impacts that this could have without a strong sustain- ability policy, without that embedded in legislation that guarantees that the end us er will be using something that is sustainable and environmentally supportive. I think we need to support this motion to refer. It's very interesting that the previous speaker made reference to the fact that the motion somehow indi- cated that we thought this was a bad deal. I'm not sure it indicates that at all.

What it says is that this is a very significant piece of legislation in a broader work the government is presenting on climate change and that there are lots of questions. There are new questions growing every single day out of this industry — out of the biodiesel, bioethanol and other alternative fuels. And frankly, there are other alter- native fuels coming on all the time. The government's commitment to the hydrogen highway and to hydrogen production — how does that fit into this?

I'm not entire ly sure that I see that government has presented us with a whole array of alternatives that have enough documentation, have enough guarantees there that w e w i l l b e a b l e t o s u p - port them as sustainable in the long run. [1515] I would have to say to the government that they should not be afraid to look deeper at this. If this is really good legislation and if all of their policies are supportable, sustainable…. They've done the research. They've looked at the impact s of both bioethanol and biodiesel and other alternativ es.

If they've looked at that under the guise of measuring the carbon intensity, if they feel that there's en ough documentation there to support a claim that whatever moves we take, what- ever policy we put in place, are not developing a higher carbon intensity than we intended or than we will have lost by our current methods, then I think they should be happy to sit down and defend that. Even the agriculture industry — there are great opportunities here.

I think there are tremendous op- portunities, certainly in the biodiesel industry, for new kinds of agricultural opportunities, but they all have to be measured up against any risks that we may have. As we have been eroding the agricultural land reserve in this province , we are diminishing the amount of acreage, the amount of agricultural land that could produce alternative crops. Are we going to be forced to make choices because of policies the govern- ment has already embarked on, actions the government has already taken, positi ons they already support?

How do those reflect on the long-term sustainability of any kind of biofuel? We look at the potential options for bioethanol out of the current climate change crisis with the pine beetle. In fact, what is the carbon intensity that we would see coming out of that kind of production of taking those wood products and developing an ethanol product out of that? The documentation is not here. The bill itself, Madam Speaker, because it's ena- bling legislation, has very thin language in all of this, and that is where the growing concern is.

I think it's for us to take a closer look, have a thorough debate and make sure, when we put this bill in motion, that we are not doing something frivolous, not doing something that we will be ashamed of later, not putting in place something that actually jeop ardizes many of the things that we are trying to achieve. T h i s i s a g o v e r n m e n t t h a t s a i d w e w i l l r e d u c e greenhouse gases by a tremendous amount, with dead- lines in the future that may or may not be achievable.

Certainly, given the government's actions outside of this bill — where we are building superhighways, we are building new bridges, we are encouraging more traffic, and we have not put in place other alternative modes of transportation at the rate that will allow peo- ple to get out of their cars faster and sooner — means that we have continued to create this automobile and oil and gas dependency for a long, long time. The idea of moving people to alternative fuels is very interesting, very provocative, very attractive.

11064 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, APRIL 8, 2008 Biodiesel itself, if it's done sustainably…. Frankly, the industry itself wants to move directly into sustainabil- ity, because they realize that that's a key part of long- term production and making sure that people use it as an alternative. All of those things need to be discussed and thoroughly examined to make sure that whatever the government is doing, it is not completely counter- productive to what its end goal is.

The motion to refer here simply says: "Let's go away and have a discussion on this and have a debate." Let's take a very frank look at the worldwide contro- versy that's taking place ri ght now around bioethanol, biodiesel — the long-term impacts on food security, and what's happening in Europe, South America, the U.S. — and let's think about what actions we take. Frankly, we will be dependent on many of those centres to produce the products that we are going to be requiring, because we in British Columbia will be unable to be self-sustainable in any way in a biodiesel or bioethanol market.

If we think we can grow every- thing here that would feed into any of these biofuel products, then that's complete folly. There is no way o n e a r t h w e w o u l d b e c o m e s e l f - s u s t a i n a b l e . S o t h a t means that we are dependent on other markets to bring this in. Currently, our biodiesel…. I run it in my car every single day. We don't produce it here in British Columbia. All of the production system around this is still in a fledgling state. [1520] Even if we were to mandate that tomorrow people had to use B5 in every diesel automobile in British Columbia, we couldn't produce it.

There is no way to access it. All of the system that needs to be grown in place here is dependent on product that comes from areas that may not be sustainable. I have great respect for the previous speaker who talked about farming in the Peace and about what a great opportunity this is for them. It is a great opportu- nity — right? — for farmers in northern Alberta, in Saskatchewan, in Manitoba, who are only putting two- thirds of their field to pl ant these days. One-third of their lands are not going into grain, because the market is not creating economic st ability for them.

Sure, there are lots of opportunities there, but we have to make sure that whatever we're doing is not at a greater cost, and that we actually calculat e this field-to-wheel cost, think about the carbon intensity and think about whether or not it is sustainable in the long run.

I would think that every member of this House would be looking to be responsible to that, to ensure that whatever we are doing is sustainable, that it is not jeopardizing food prices elsewhere in the world and that it is not jeopardizing the environment because the field-to-wheel carbon intensity is far greater than any- thing we anticipated. Do we have all those facts? They are controversial. There's no question about it. I've made a study of this for several years, and I can tell you that there are no clear answers. It becomes more controversial all the time.

Frankly, the oil and gas industry itself is wading in and out of this. They are hu ge players in the ethanol debate. As a consequence, you have to look and say: what have they found? Why are they promoting etha- nol? Is it really going to get us the kind of alternatives that we're anticipating here? I don't get any answers out of all of this. I think that it does come down to public policy on this. That cannot be created in the middle of a bill that has no details to it and has no policy attached to it.

Pub- lic policy on this is going to be what affects us the most and what will stay with us the longest in the future. That's what we're asking for in this motion to refer. It's highly supportable. I would think that the gov- ernment would be happy to support the idea to refer this to a committee, where we have a discussion, where we all, in tandem, take a hard look and say: "We're not making mistakes. We're not doing this at the expense of other countries, other cultures. We're not doing this at the expense of the rain forest.

We're not doing this at the expense of food and corn crop prices in the U.S. that affect families." I know that the minister has these things on his mind as well. I know that this is a concern for all of us who support the concept of alternative fuels. We know we have to find some bridge between here and the future. We know that we have to find ways to wean ourselves off of fossil fuel dependency. There are some great opportunities here. There are also some great hazards in the debate.

Why would we not want to sit down and have that discussion and make sure that we support the idea of alternative fuels with sustainability, with public policy that we can all be very proud of long into the future? I think that this motion is highly supportable. Without it, the bill, unfortunately, doesn't take into consideration all of the other concerns. If the whole concept of this carbon intens ity of fuel transport does not take into consideration some of the issues with biofuel, with bioethanol in pa rticular….

Frankly, it's no secret that I'm not a big fan of bioethanol, because I do know that its impacts are ha rsh, both on food prices and food security. As well, the long-term sustainability here is highly questionable. I am much more confident about biodiesel, because it uses waste product. It can actually help get waste product out of the landfill. Much of what it's based on is either recycled or using waste product from other food crops, like soy, that are grown for protein. The waste by-product of that is used for biodiesel.

Certainly, we have so me huge opportunities around using meat-packing waste that would normally go into the landfill but could be used, and it's highly stable for the use of biodiesel. There are other crops coming up, and there are other alternative fuel options coming in the future. [1525] I think that for us to sit down and make sure that when we initiate this legislation and initiate policy, we know exactly what we're doing and can go and face the world and not be caught in that controversy, not be

TUESDAY, APRIL 8, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 11065 caught in that debate. As long as our policies here in British Columbia are under the guise of new greener, cleaner greenhouse gas–reducing climate change planning, but we can't look the rest of the developed countries in the eye…. We can't look at the critics of bioethanol and biodiesel and say: "We have done a thorough job of making sure we will, in British Colum- bia, behave very responsibly around this." If we haven't done that, then what is the purpose of having climate change planning you can't actually defend in public?

So I would say that all of these are critical not just to this enabling legislation but to the longer-term impacts for us in British Columbia. The public policy on this has to be something that we are proud of, that we can defend, that we are knowledg- able about. That will come out of this motion to refer to a committee and us having this discussion off and out of this House, in a venue wh ere we can actually discuss and dismantle…. We can make sure that whatever we are doing here is somethin g we have examined thor- oughly and know we've been responsible about. I highly support the motion to refer.

I can't imagine why anyone would not want to have a thorough discus- sion about this — what they would be afraid of, why government would be in any way hesitant from having that debate. It's all supportable around this legislation. It doesn't hurt the legislation at all. It doesn't change it. We refer it, we have that discussion, and then we come back with public policy to back this up that is very sustainable and supportable and that we're proud of. Then we can go out to the world and say: "We've now created legislation." We've created legislation that could be a blueprint for ot her communities to follow.

We like to think, in B.C., th at we're doing that, with a climate change plan. Let's make it real. Let's make it deep and substantial and realistic. Then we can go out and sa y: "Here's public policy. Here's what we created in a bill. Here's the background t o i t .

" H e r e ' s t h e p u b l i c p o l i c y t h a t g o e s w i t h i t t h a t actually defines sustainabi lity and makes sure that whatever we do in British Columbia is sustainable into the long future, until we see alternatives beyond fossil fuel dependency or altern ative fuel dependency, and something like, ultimately, a solar-powered electric car that costs the environment nothing to operate. I would urge all members of this House to support the motion to refer. J. Horgan: I'm pleased to once again take my place in this debate on my referral motion…. Hon. R. Neufeld: This is clarification from the Chair.

This morning the member for Malahat–Juan de Fuca began second reading debate, actually carried on second reading debate for a while, and then introduced a motion and spoke on that motion until we broke for lunch. After lunch the member was not in the House, in fact, to carry on the debate, and the member for Peace River South carried on the debate on the member's motion.

I just would like some clarification of what takes place now, because I believe that the member has already spoken to his motion, he's already spoken t o s e c o n d r e a d i n g , a n d w e n e e d t o m o v e o n w i t h t h e motion the member brought forward, but by other members of the opposition. [1530] Deputy Speaker: Members, at the call of the Chair, we will recess for five minutes. The House recessed from 3:31 p.m. to 3:36 p.m. [K. Whittred in the chair.] J. Horgan: I thank members of the House for in- dulging me. My brief absence after question period prohibited me from taking my place in the debate.

I want to be brief and to the point. I think I made the points fairly clearly before the lunch break. My view, and the rationale for the referral motion, is that this is a golden opportunity for all members of the House to come together as one in committee — whether it be a newly constituted committee or one that is ap- pointed by the committee on legislative initiatives — to l o o k a t t h i s i s s u e , t o b r i n g i n e x p e r t s , t o h a v e a d e b a t e internally in the glare of the public eye, and come to a conclusion on the efficacy and value of biofuels. [S.

Hammell in the chair.] Now, I don't want to leave the public or members of this House with the impression that this is some- thing I've just come upon recently. I've been doing a lot of research on this. I've been giving it a lot of thought, and so has the scientific community; so has the media. I have in my hand this month's edition of Time magazine. On the cover there is a cob of corn sur- rounded by bills. It says "The Clean Energy Myth." It goes on to say that politicians and big business and others are pushing biofuels as corn-based solutions to our energy crisis.

That may or may not be true, but the public that we represent — bombarded by media, bombarded by di

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H0408pm 02
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H0408pm 02
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	7093d7607cc236dcf8cb5285c9cc6311a1a8c123

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