Manitoba Hansard — 22 January 1990 (Sitting 108A, 34th Legislature, 2nd Session)

34-2-108a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, January 22, 1990. The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEE DINGS INTRODUCTION OF BILLS BILL NO. 96-AN ACT TO AMEND

AN ACT RESPECTING THE ROMAN CATHO LIC ARCHIEPISCOPAL CORPORATION OF WINNIPEG AND THE ROMAN CATHOLIC ARCHDIOC ESE OF WINN IPEG Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge) introduced, by leave, Bill No. 96,

An Act to amend

an Act respecting the Roman Catholic Archiepiscopal Corpora tion of Wi nnip eg and the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Winnip eg; Loi modifiant "An Act respecting the Roman Catholic Archiepiscopal Corporation of Winnip eg and the Roman Catholic Archdi ocese of Winnip eg." MATT ER OF PRIVILEGE Mr. Harry Harapiak (The Pas): Mr. Speaker, before proceeding with Oral Questions, I rise on a matter of privilege and would seek the floor to move my case. I am rising on a matter of priv ilege, because I feel that information that was given to the House on Janua ry 8 by the Min ister of Labour (Mr s.

Hammond) was in fact misleading information and as such has interfered with my abil ity and our ability as legislators to represent constituencies, not only with those who are residents of apartment build ings, but workers and citizens across the province. Mr.

Speaker, as you are aware, there are three conditions that must be met with respect to a matter of privilege: first, that it is brought to the attention at the earliest possible moment; and the second, that there is a prima facie case, that indeed the privileges of Mem bers of the Ho use ha ve been breached and interfered with; and third, that it is concluded by a substantive motion.

I am bringing this matter to your attention now, which is the earliest possible occasion owing to my being in my constituency last week when Order-in-Council 14 59 of December 20 was finall y released publ icly. * (13 35) When I asked the Min ister of Labour (Mrs. Hammond) on Janu ary 8 of this year whether the Min ister would reinstate gas inspectors, the Min ister told the House that she was reviewing the inspection of boilers and chimneys.

In fact, as the Order-in-Council of December 20 makes clear, she had already further gu tted such insp ections and was deli berately withholding such information from the publi c. It should be noted that a person died on Christmas Eve of carbon monoxide poisoning in an apartment building where the chimney was blocked. The chimney had not been inspected, so my asking about gas inspectors the first day the House sat after the incident was proper and important.

Neither I nor any any Members of the Op position were aware that the Min ister was far from strengthening the inspection, was actually weakening the regulation. Thus, withholding of this council was similar to her withholding a previous council where she dropped a requirement for complete warning labels on dang erous materials agains t the advice of Worker Advi sors Committee, and in fact suppor ted only by this credited Minis ter, former Min ister of Labour, the Member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Con nery).

In order for Mem bers to do our work as representatives, we mus t have fu ll, accu rate and complete information available to us. We rely upon the Government Members of the Treasury Board to provide us with the factual and complete information when they speak in the Cham ber, not half truths and misleading information. Without accu rate information, the purpose of legislation responsibil ities becomes tainted . We can not pro perly de bate Go vern ment action if the Government operates in a secretive manner as stated in this instance. I therefore move, second ed by the Member for Thompson (Mr.

Ashton), that this House censure the Minis ter of Labour (Mr s. Hammond) for her contempt of the privileges of the House, privileges of the Members of the Leg islature, and by deliberately misleading all Members by stating that she was reviewing policies concerning gas inspections when in fact she had already reduced regulations concerning such inspections and had not released them publ icly. Mr. Speaker: I will permit limited and strictly relevant deba te conc erning whether or not the matter has been raised at the earliest opportunity and that a prima facie case has been establis hed.

The Honour able Government House Leader. Hon. James Mccrae (Gover nment House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, in order to be afforded the opportunity to argue the three requirements of a question of privilege, that being the matter being raised at the earliest oppo rtunity, whether or not there is a prima facie breach , and whether or not the motion is indeed something that should be discussed by Honourable Members in this Cham ber, I think in order to allow for that, it would be wise to give Honourable Members an opportunity to take the matter under advisement so that we can properly argue the points raised by the Honou rable Member for The Pas (Mr. Harapiak) today.

I would ask that Your Ho nour hold the matter over so that we can bring forward our arguments with respect to the matter raised to the Honourable Member as to whether there is indeed a breach or a prima facie breach 4508

Monday, January 22, 1990 that might be discussed in the House with regard to a motion to refer it somewhere else. Mr. Reg Alcock (O pposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I would like just to make a few comments on what the Government House Leader has just suggested. I think, Mr. Speaker, it is incumbent upon you to determine whether or not a prima facie case has been established, and I would advise you to take the matter under advisement. I do not think the House should be taking it un der advis ement. I think we can offer advice at the present time. A matter of privilege, as you know, is a very serious matter.

I think the question of timeliness, the Member has spoken to that, and I think that you can be the judge of that particular question. In terms of the legitimacy of the case and the prima facie nature of the complaint that he is raising, we have many times raised concerns in this House about the accu racy of in formation being provided by the Government. I think that this case clearly demonstrates the problems that we have been conc erned about.

I would ask that you review this most carefully, because I think it is time this Government was chal lenged to start producing accu rate and timely information. • (1 340) Mr. Steve Ashton (Second Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, first of all in terms of the proceedings that normally take place in a matter of privilege, I believe that the Member has, as outlined, met the conditions for a normal matter of privilege. I must ind icate surprise that the Government House Leader does not wish to deal with the arguments at this time.

I have never seen a Government ask a matter of privilege be taken as notice, which seems to be the case in this particular situation. I know it is quite common for the Speaker to take time to review the facts based on the arguments that ha ve been made by the Mem bers of the Government.

I suspect part of the prob lem may be that they are increasingly having difficulty in owning up to the fact that in this particular case and other cases somehow we are not getting accu rate information, but in matters of very sensitive areas, in this case the safety of the people of this province, they did not have an answer for the fact that they gave a wrong an swer, a mislead ing answer, to a Member of this House . who asked a question during Question Period after a decision had been made to roll back safety standards. If they do not have an argument agai nst that at this point in time, that is their problem.

It may also be the problem of the people of Ma nitoba. I do not think that it is appropriate for us, Mr. Speaker, to now take this matter as notice. We should be deal ing with this. You may in fact wish to take it under advisement. I would like to hear from the Government for a change on this why they misled this House, why they misled this Member, the Member for The Pas, why they did roll back the safety standards when they said they were reviewing it, when in fact they made that decision in December. I think we would all like to get that answer.

If we got some straight answers, we would not have to be standing here on matters of privilege rai sing this. It is absolutely una ccep table for the Government to now say they do not have an answer to the Member's ma tter of privilege. We should deal with it Perhaps you should take it under advisement and we can deal with it further at a later point of time. I want to hear the Government's answer to this very serious matter. Mr. McCrae: Mr. Sp eaker, my sim ple request to Honour able Members may be sincere in saying that you may or may not wish to take the matter un der advisement. I sug gest it is a good idea.

All I was asking was that I be reserved an opportunity to speak prior to Your Honour making a determination about the prima facie nature of the case. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I would like to thank all Honour able Members for their advice. I will be taking this matter un der advisement and I will return to the House with a ruling. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Workplace Safety and Health Oil Burner Installation Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Min ister of Labour (Mrs. Hammond).

On Friday, I raised with the Premier the recent reduction of licensing requirements by this Min ister under the gas and oil burner regu lations. The Premier ind icated that, and I quote: "We will continue to consult with those people who work in the industry, the qualified workers, labour representatives and people applying the standards." Mr. Speaker, I ind icated on Friday that the Min ister and the Government, in fact, had not consu lted with its own Wo rkpla ce Health and Sa fety Advisory Committee.

Now I have learned that they also did not consult with the Hea ting, Refrigera ting and Air Conditioning Ins titute. My question is: who did they consult with or, more to the point, who are they lob bied by? • (1 345) Hon. Gerrie Ham mond (M inister of Labour responsible for Workplace Safety and Health): Mr. Speaker, I was going to rise to an swer the question that the Premier took as notice on Friday. The new regulation does not change the requirement for having a licence to install oil and gas burning equipment.

The regu lation allows the department to issue a special oil burner installer's licence to a person who is factory trained to specific equipment. The licence is limited to the installation and service on that particular equipment. This is a licence that is similar to the special gas fitter's licence that has been in existence for many years. The special oil installer's licence will only be issued to highl y trained individuals that receive factory training 4509 - - -

Monday, January 22, 19 90 and only on uni que types of equipment. What has been found is the people that needed this special type of repair and installation could not find oil and gas burner people to install, and there are about 200 pieces of equipment so we are giving a special licence. This is a safety requirement. We are not reducing safety. We are increasing safety in Man itoba. New technology- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Member for St. James. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, I sug gest that this Min ister read what she signed .

The fact is she has the most backward way of improving safety of any Min ister in this Government. My suppl ementary question to the Min ister-and Mr. Mault, the director of Mechan ical and Engi neering Branch, gave a similar answer on Friday. Mr. Speaker, should not the licensing board , the board of experts set up by this Minis ter, be the ones to judge wha t constitutes equivalent experience in this field? Why has the Min ister politicized the licensing process by taking unto herself that knowledge which is in the hands of the board of experts presently set up under this Act? Mrs.

Ham mond: This Memb er is constantly admonishing the Government for not working on today's standards. What we have is new technology that is unique to this type of eq uipment. We do not have the people to inspect. They are only going to be specific. The licence will be specific to the type of equipment. That is all they will be able to install, and that is all they will be able to repair. This is happ ening un der the special gas fitter's licence. This happens in uniqu e instances, and it is going to hap pen more and more as new technolo gy takes place daily.

I do not apolog ize for making this move, because this is a good move for this particular instance. We make sure that the people will have the technolo gy and will have the experience to work on these very specific installa tions. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, let us be clear, the board of experts un der this Act previously had to be the body that licensed anybody who serviced or installed ga s and oil burners. This Min ister has taken unto herself that power to license. That is a reduction of safety standards.

My question to the Min ister is, what is the real reason for this change given that the board of experts already has, under the regulations, the power to recogn ize equivalent experience and do exactly what this Min ister is saying she had to take unto herself to do? Mrs. Hammond: Mr. Speaker, what we are attempting to do with this regula tion change is to make those particular workplaces safe for the workers. The only way to do it was to be able to issue a very specific licence.

We have done this to protect the workers because the issue is, if they cannot get people to do it, they may start to do it themselves and that would be very unsafe. So we are making a very specific licence change. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, on a new question of the same Min ister, the Minis ter has earlier indicated in her ans wers that if this new technolo gy requir es new expertise, who is going to monitor those people. Why has the Min ister taken unto herself the power to monitor and licence, when the fact is we have a board of experts in this province which already monitors gas and oil bu rners?

We have seen a tragic accident within this province very recently, in which her department was found wanting for the very inspections she has taken unto herself- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. The Honourable Min ister of Labour. Mrs. Hammond: What we are deal ing with here is a special oil burner installer licence where they will be deal ing with very specific new techn ology in an ind ustry that needs it. When we took this un der advisement we made sure, and will make sure, that only highly technical people will be deal ing with this. * (1 350) Carbon Mono xide Poisoning Detection Mr.

Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, this Min ister says that she has all kinds of concerns about new technolo gy and the way to deal with it. Why has her department not even seen fit to purchase the new technolo gy available to detect carbon monoxide in the air, available since April for $119 .00? How can we trust this Min ister and wha t she says, when the fact is- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Hon.

Gerrie Ham mond (Minis ter of Labour responsible for Workplace Safety and Health): In Estima tes, when the Memb er asked that specific question, we said we were not averse to trying out that equipm ent, but we feel that there is more that needs to be done than doing something after the fact. What we want to do is prevent that type of un fortunate accident from happen ing. Mr. Edwards: This is the Min ister who feels that she obviously knows better than the board of experts. This is the Minis ter whose depa rtment did not have the technolo gy available, which might have prevented that fatality at Col lege Avenue.

Workplace Safety and Health Cancer-Causing Substances Mr. Paul Edwards (S t. James): For the same Min ister, why has she not brought into place carcinogen levels at the lowest detectable level, which her Premier (Mr. Filmon) has indicated is the correct level despite what 4510

Monday, January 22, 19 90 she did back in Jun e? Why has she not brought that into place months after the Premier made a commitment that they would be put back into place? Hon. Gerrie Hammond (Mini ster of Labour responsible for Workplace Safety and Health): Mr. Speaker, the Workplace Safety Advisory Council has brough t a recommendation to me. I have accepted it. We are now waiting for the label ling, which they had said would come in by the end of Janu ary, and then we will be bringing recommended chan ges to Cabinet. Power Eng ine ers Act Standards Reduction Mr. Paul Edwards (St.

James): This is No. 6, I think, finally for the same Minister. Mr. Speaker, is this Mini ster presently considering also reducing standards under The Power Engi neers Act to take inspections of power plants by a licensed operator from 10 hours to 24 hours? Hon. Gerrie Hammond (Mi nister of Labour responsible for Workplace Safety and Health): No, Mr. Speaker. Work Stoppages Strike Days Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): My question is to the same Min ister on a different matter.

Women's groups, church groups, labour groups, the New Democratic Party are oppo sed to the repeal of final offer selection in The Labour Relations Act. On the other ha nd, the Cham ber of Com merce, the Conservatives and the Liberals are in favour of repealing the final offer selection in The Labour Relations Act of this province. My qu estion to the Min ister of Labour (Mr s. Hammond) is, can the Min ister confirm that in 19 89, as reported this weekend in a business column, less than 2,200 person days were lost for strike in Ma nitoba, which is the lowest it has ever been in this province for the last 15 years?

Can the Min ister confirm those num bers for the people of Mani toba? POINT OF ORDER Hon. James Mccrae (Government House Leader): A point of order, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: The Honou rable Government House Leader, on a point of order. Mr. Mccrae: I ju st wonder if the Honour able Member for Con cordia (Mr. Doer) knows which order of business we are on today? This is Question Period.

The fact is that he will have ampl e opportunity to discuss the final offer selection legisla tion, proposed by this Legislature, at almost any day, because we call Bill 31 basically as one of our first priorities every day as we enter on the discussion of Bills. I wonder if his question is in order in relation to that other opportunity for debate. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Thompson, on the same point of order. * (13 55) Mr. Steve Ashton (Second Opposition House Leader): We in fact, for the information of the Government House Leader (Mr.

McCrae), did raise questions on final offer selection last week. That item has been dealt with. Unfortunately, we did not get much in the way of answers even then. I think that probably explains why our Leader is asking these questions today, which are totally in order.-(interjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. On the point of order raised by the Hono urable Government House Leader, which relates to the anticipation of a question, I am not aware of what is coming up durin g Orders of the Day. I think if the Honour able Leader of the New Democratic Party, the Member for Concord ia (Mr.

Doer), was asking a very detailed question which should be dealt with in committee, but I am of the opinion that he is asking a pol icy question. Therefore, the question is in order. Hon. Gerrie Hammond (Min ister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, the Member for Concord ia (Mr. Doer) is correct. There have been lower job losses in Manitoba, but they have also been, at least work stoppages, the same all across Canada in every ju risdiction. So they do not have final offer selection so you canno t use that hypothesis. Final Offer Selection Labour Mini ster's Position Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): I await the Min ister's specific answers on that because, in the first five months that we have statistics in 19 89, Saskatchewan lost 10,000 person days to strike, and Ma nitoba in that same period of time under final offer selection and a more creative futuristic approach to labour relations only lost 700 days to strike. My question to the Minis ter is, does she still stand by her statement that we would do better without final offer selection?

Will she review the data in terms of the two years' experience that clearly shows that Mani toba is maintaining not only the second-lowest days lost per strike in the country but also we are far and away doing better un der final offer selection? Will she remove the ideological spectre and start looking at in a rational way the results of this inn ovative and futuristic legislation. Mrs. Gerrie Hammond (Minister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, under final offer selection, in 19 88, six of the 11 work stoppages lasted from 77 to 90 days. Before that, it was 50 days or less, and I think that speaks for itself.

Impact Study Tabling Request Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): It speaks for the Cham ber of Commerce that is dictating all kinds of policy issues in this Cham ber. Mr. Spea ker, 451 1 - -

Monday, January 22, 1990 it speaks for the Cham ber of Commerce's position, not chu rch groups, women's groups, working groups that are opposed to the repeal of this legisla tion. My question is to the Min ister. Will she table - (i nterjection)-Well, we saw how the Li berals are control led under their leader ship campa ign, Mr. Speaker. My question to the Min ister is this: will she table an up-to-date, independent impact on the two years of final offer selection, which clearly shows it is inno vative, it is futuristic and it is working?

Will she ag ree to table that in the House, or are we staying with her ideolog ies? Hon. Gerrie Hammond (Min ister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, I have already ind icated to both the critics in Estimates that I would table that information. I believe that the information is going out to them today. labour Mini ster's Position Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): My final question then to the Min ister is this.

As it clearly sh ows that Manitoba is enj oying now almost a negligible days lost per strike in this province, the lowest it has been for 15 years, would the Minis ter now ag ree that final offer selection is working, as church groups have said and women's groups have said, and therefore withdraw the legislation on behalf of the Government so we can get on to the 19 90s in a futuristic way, rather than going back to the past with the Liberals and Con servatives and the Cham ber of Commerce? Hon. Gerrie Hammond (Min ister of Labour): Mr.

Speaker, this was one of the areas that the Women's Agenda brought up, and it was one of the few areas where there were 12 abstentions, so this is not an area that people agree on. We believe we are on the right track by repealing final offer selection, and we will continue on with it. * (14 00) Mani toba Housing and Renewal Corp. Mortgage Auction Delay Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leade r of the Opposition}: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Min ister of Housing (Mr. Duch arme). The Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corp oration was represented in court this morning by their lawyer.

Can the Min ister of Housing tell us what position MHR C took with regard to the request by the developer to delay the auction of Place Promenade? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Min ister of Housing) : Mr. Speaker, first of all, I thought maybe the Leader of the Oppo sition was going to get up and apolog ize in regard to a question put forward by the Member for Fort Rouge (Mr. Carr) on Friday, implying- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order. Mr. Ducharme: -that Manitoba Housing had ignor ed cond itions set out by CMHC.

First of all, the issue 4512 relating to final advanc e was publ icly cla rified by the director of CMHC over the weekend and requires no further deliberation. However, in answer to the most recent question by the Leader of the Opp osition, there was a motion granted by Ch ief Ju stice V. Simonsen this morning. The ruling is that the mortgage sale be delayed till at least February 2,'9 0. This is the court's order, and we have abided by their order, the same as we will abide by any conditions that are set by CMHC, any that we have been following since we took over this particular agreement.

North Portage Development Corp. Mortgage Auction Delay Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition}: Mr. Speaker, but that was not the question. The question was this: how did the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation present its case? In deed they presented their case in opposition to the delay in the auction. Will the Min ister of Urban Affairs tell us how the North Portage Corporation argued this morning in court? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Mi nister of Urban Affairs): Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opp osition should maybe go back to court and see how we proceed under the mortgage ag reement.

We have conditions that we must follow that are set aside by CMHC . She is sugge sting that we set the conditions. CMHC is the insurer. They set the conditions. We follow those conditions. We would be willing to proceed under the mortgage sale. We would have as of Janu ary 24 because that is one of the conditions that we must foll ow. Mrs. Carstairs: We have a conflict in the Min ister. One half of his department argues that in fact there should be no delay. The other half of his department argues that indeed there should be a delay.

Will the Min ister responsible for Urban Affairs tell the House what direction he gave to his representatives of the North Portage Development Corporation as to the position that corporation should take in court today? Mr. Ducharme: There is no way MHR C is dela ying. MHR C is following the rules and the conditions set by CMHC. As far as we were concerned, this morning when we went into court we were to proceed with mortgage sale. We will proceed with the mortgage sale to protect the $18 .5 million. If that Member over there on the Opposition wants to put $18 .5 million on the table, I will follow her conditions.

Crown Corporations Accountability Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Leader of the Oppo sition, with a new question. Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition}: With a new question, since the Mi nister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ducharme) seems prepared to pass over his authority to the Opposi tion, will he now instruct the North Portage Development Corpora tion, as well as

Monday, Jan uary 22, 19 90 The Forks Develop ment Corpora tion, to appear before this body so they can be examin ed in detail as to the future development plans from the City of Wi nnip eg? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minis ter of Urban Affairs): The Member from across the way wants to probably debate everything in regard to north of Portage, The Forks and the mortgage sale. Right at this time I must be very, very careful. It is before the court and I as Min ister, MHR C as housing responsi ble for $18 .5 million, will not de via te from that mortgage sale un less instructed by CMHC that is the insu rer.

The Forks Renewal Corporation Manda te Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): The evolu tionary plans of the North Portage Development Corporation and The Forks Development Corporation belong to the people of this city and to the province. I, along with 16 ,000 other people, was at The Forks on Sunda y skating on the rinks. That is the kind of development the people of this province want at The Forks. Can the Min ister tell the House when he is going to give the people the opportunity to once again voice their manda te, their directions, for The Forks? Hon.

Gerald Ducharme (Mi nister of Urban Affairs): I am very happ y that the Honou rable Member from the Opp osition has visited The Forks. I am proud of The Forks, I am proud of the market, I am proud of the rink that is there, I am proud of the river bank that is going on. Each year, The Forks has an open public hearing that will listen. If she would read the Estimates procedure of Urban Affairs, she will see the comments by this Min ister. The comments by this Min ister to The Forks are, proceed but do not be in a hu rry to develop for the sake of developing.

The people will tell you in the area what they want in the long haul and that is why we will have public meetings each year. Crown Corporations Accountability Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): The question is this: are they accoun table or are they not accountable? Right now they are not accountable. Why will this Min ister not deman d, at least through his representatives, full accountability from both North Portage and The Forks so development can take pla ce in the best interests of the people of this city and province? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Min ister of Urban Affairs): Mr.

Speaker, it is quite ironic. The Member from across the way visited The Forks. Maybe she could suggest to everyone where they have moved from that manda te from where The Forks was established. They have done the market, they have done the park, they have done the riv er bank, they have not deviated from that manda te. They will keep working towards the manda te that is appl ied for them at The Forks and they will hear public hearings each and every year to get the good ideas. The people of Winni peg have given those ideas. The perception of the Member acros s the way is that they have deviated.

They have not deviated in any way. Pinkham Day Care Facility Funding Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Min ister of Fam ily Services (M rs. Oles on). In September of this past year , construction of the Pinkh am day care facility in the Pin kham School was completed. Since then that facility has sat empty. It is a fully equipp ed centre, heated, with a board ready to run it. It has done all the necessary steps to address the needs in an inn er city community.

I would like to know from the Min ister why, when she had made a promise last year to ensure that centres would be funde d immediately upon completion of construction, she has broken that promise, why over 40 kids have to go without space in a needy area. Why will she not flow that money immediately? Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Min ister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, I have not broken a commitment to that group. They will be funded as soon as possible. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Mr. Speaker, I wish the Min ister would check Hansard and get the facts straight.

On October 17, 19 88, she said clearly and unequ ivocally this centre, Pin kham day care facility, would be fun ded immediately upon construction. She has broken that promise. She misled this House, and it is the children who must go without adeq uate care. Given that the Min ister did say she would fund immediately upon construction, will the Min ister make a commitment to the House today that monies will flow immediately to fund this vacant beautiful child care centre in a very needy area of our province? Mr s. Oleson: Mr.

Sp eak er, that is un der active consideration and I will have an ans wer for the Member very shortly. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Mr. Speaker, the Premier says, why do we not pass the Estimates. We are not getting answers from la st year's Estimates, let alone this year's Estimates. The Min ister misled the House over a year ago. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Agreement Tabling Request Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Member for St. Johns has the floor. Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St.

Johns ): Given that she said funding would occur immedia tely upon construction, that was part of the agreement when they un dertook construction of centres and they would be funded -(interjection)-yes, they will be funded, she said on a numb er of occasions, will the Min ister, if she is not prepared to indicate funding immediately for the centre, will she table the agreement that spells out a deal and an agreement between this Government and a day care commun ity and a day care centre in a needy area of this city? Hon. Char lotte Oleson (Mi nister of Family Services): Mr.

Speaker, I ind icated to the Member it is under active conside ration and information will be forthcoming. 4513

Monday, January 22, 19 90 Cano la Oil Industry Seed Crushing Plant s Mr. Laurie Ev ans (Fort Ga rry): Mr. Sp ea ker, my question is to the Min ister of Indu stry and Trade (Mr. Ernst). It rela tes to the can ola industry in western Canada. There are seven canola crushing plants in western Canada and two of those are closed. The two in Manitoba are operating at less than 60 percent capacity and are losing app roximately $12 on every ton of can ola that they crush. Can the Minis ter of Indu stry, Trade and Tourism (Mr.

Ernst) giv e us some idea as to what are the circumstances that have led to this critical condition in that indu stry, considering that it was a very viable and profitable indu stry until recently? Hon. Glen Findlay (M inister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, I would like to just give the Member some background as to what has happened in the oilseed crushing indu stry. Clearly, the oilseed crushing industry is a good example of diversification and value added in this province. It creates jobs in rural Mani toba.

It has been unfortunate that the Un ited States and Europe have seen fit to put export subsidies in place such that it is very di fficult for this in dustry to competitively market their oil outside of this country. That is the basis of the difficulty, which is part and parcel of the negotiations in front of GATT right now to resolve those trade difficulties. * (1410 ) Tariff Reduction Mr. Laurie Evans (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, I think the Min ister of Agriculture (Mr. Findla

y) knows full well that there is a 7.5 percent tariff on vegetable oil moving into the U.S., but no tariff essentially on the seed. Can the Min ister ind icate what efforts were taken by him or the Min ister of Indu stry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Ernst) to attempt to get the tariff on vegetable oils reduced so that the Canadian indus try coul d, in fact, be competitive with that in the United States? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minist er of Agr iculture): A list of commodities was advanced to the Un ited States.

The Canad ian contingent on the free trade advanc ed it, and it had canola oil on the list for fast tracking the reduction of tariffs. It has been the position of Canada that we want to do it, and it is still on the list for fast tracking of reduction of tariffs of canola oil going into the Un ited States. Canola oil is very well accepted in the United States. It is well known that it is sold under the Puritan label by Proctor and Gamble to a consumer that app reciates the value of that oil and is buyi ng it in large amounts. U.S. Production Mr. Laurie Evans (Fort Garry): Mr.

Speaker, my final supplementary is to the Min ister of Agriculture (Mr. Findla y). It relates to the fact that under the Lands Set Aside Program in the Un ited States, canola is identified as an experimental crop. Therefore, American farmers can produce this on land of major crops that have been set aside. Can the Minis ter of Agricul ture give us any ind ication of the num ber of acres that are anticipated to be produ ced in the northern states next year and what percentage of that crop will be used to satisfy the requirements of the Velva plant in North Dakota? Hon.

Glen Findlay (Min ister of Agriculture): Well, certainly the Un ited States has recogn ized the value of this oil in terms of the health food of the year, recognitions that have recurred twice in the past three years. There is no question that the Un ited States producer looks at this as a valua ble crop for the future. I have heard people from as far south as Atlanta talking about it. I have heard people from Kansas talking about it. I have heard farmers in North Dakota and Min nesota talking about wanting to get into the production of this crop.

Oilseed crushing plants have been switched over from soybeans to canola in the past three years, and they are using more and more Canadian seed and crushing it in the Un ited States. It is unfortunate the Americans have decided to go agai nst this, I guess, in terms of producing the crop. We are going to have to compete with them, but it is an open market in terms of getting those tariffs down and allowing us to compete directly with them. No question, they are going to increase their level of produ ction, and we can not stop them from producing it. Workplace Safety and Health Inspector Re-instatement Mr.

Steve Ashton (T hompson): Mr. Speaker, we are seeing in crea sing evi denc e, day after da y, of this Government's la ck of commitment to maintaining adequ ate safety standards in this province. We have seen today the fact that they have been rolling back regula tions in this important area. In Estimates, it was revealed that not only have they been rol ling back safety standards in terms of regula tions, but they have actually cut the num ber of inspectors. They cut two inspection positions, Mr.

Speaker, at a time in this province when we are faced with Solvit situa tions, we are faced with carbon monoxide poisonings. My question is to the Premier (Mr. Filmon) in his capacity as the chai rperson of Treasury Board . Wi ll he now admit that it was wrong to be cutting back those two inspector positions? Will he not only reinstate those two in spection positions that were cut from the Department of Labour but seek to expand and beef up this insp ection so we can improve safety for Mani tobans, not roll it back like the Tories are doing? Hon.

Gerrie Ham mond (M inister of Labour responsible for Workplace Safety and Health): Mr. 4514

Monday, Jan uary 22, 19 90 Speaker, I. will answer the Mem ber as I did when we were in committee. The two inspectors were specific to one area. When they were not doing those inspections any long er, those positions were cut. Mr. Ashton: Mr. Sp eaker , they cut back the requir ements for in spec tion. They cut back two positions. What I am asking -a nd I am asking the Premier and, if the Premier does not want to an swer, I will ask the Min ister of Labour.

Why, given the situation that occurred at Solvit and in the carbon monoxide poisoning, will they not take those two positions and allocate them to other needed areas of inspection? Why are they rolling back inspections in this provinc e? Mrs. Hammond: Mr. Speaker, inspections are one part of safety. We have increased safety measures in many ways in the Department of Labour. This particular incident has nothing to do with the others. Projectionist Regulations Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, this is my final question.

I would like to table a letter from the motion picture projectionists' union in this province, which ind icates another area where this Government is being lax in terms of safety standards. I would like to ask the Min ister of Labour (Mr s. Hammond), will she reconsider her decision to delicense the projectionists, in light of the fact they pointed out that there are major safety hazards involved with this profession, something she den ied in Estimates?

Will she now reconsid er, once agai n, another change in regu lations that is going to lessen the safety protection involving workers in the Province of Man itoba? Hon. Gerrie Hammond (Minis ter of Labour responsible for Workplace Safety and Health): Mr. Speaker, new technology has come about and there is no need to inspect those-the projectionists do not do their own inspections any more. They do not do their own repairs. What we have are experts doing that particular ind ustry now. Rural Services Crisis Lines Funding Mrs. Gwen Ch arles (Selkirk): Mr.

Sp eaker, this Government continues to fail to suppor t services in rural Manitoba. The only funded crisis line for rural Manitoba exists in the City of Winnip eg. Over $350,000 is spent in the city, none in the province outside the Perimeter Highway. A person in crisis must know how to call this centre and will be lucky to have communi ty follow-up. Will the Min ister of Fam ily Services ex plain why Winnip eg houses the only rural crisis line in the Province of Manitoba? Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Mi nister of Family Services): Mr.

Speaker, first of all, I should ind icate to the Member that the shelters outside of Winnip eg each have a phone numb er and people can contact them. Further to the decision to lodge the crisis line in lkwe, that was a sugges tion that came out of a group of service providers who felt that was the best possible solution, to have a province-wide crisis line centred in that particular agen cy. Tha t was why we made that choice. Mrs. Charles: There is no provincial money going directly to crisis lines in rur al Ma nitoba.

The In terlake is an exa mple of spending $15, 000 out of its crisis shelter budg et in order to suppor t these lines. Will the Min ister of Family Services (Mrs. Oleson) indicate today why she will not fund crisis lines directly in rural Man itoba? Mrs. Oleson: Mr. Speaker, I do not need to apolog ize for the funding of shelters and the family dispute area in our province. The fu nding for that particular area went up 47 percent this year. We build into the operating of that some funds for telephone lines.

Now that is something that we can take a look at for the future of how we fund those, but I do not think we need to apolog ize one moment for the work we have done in that area of this bud get. Mrs. Cha rles: Mr. Sp eak er, this Mini ster should apolog ize for not und erstanding the need s of all Man itobans. There are no crisis lines. Will the Min ister phone the crisis lines and shelters in Manitoba today and find out where their money is coming from? It is not from her bud get for crisis lines. It is from the shelter itself. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order.

The Honourable Min ister of Fam ily Services. Mrs. Oleson: I am tempted to sug gest that perhaps the shelter and crisis will be able to hear the Member speaking on their behalf from there. When we came into Government, Mr. Speaker, that particular crisis centre in Selkirk that the Member is no doub t referring to had a per diem of $1 3.60. It is now $45.00. We have committed to that -(applause)- Ma nitoba ECO Network Core Funding Mr. Har ry Harapiak (The Pas): Mr. Sp eaker, my question is to the Minis ter of Environment (Mr . Cummi ng s).

The Manitoba Environ mental Network has been getting requests from many public organ izations, school childr en and ind ustry on the environment. The Min ister of Environment (Mr. Cummin gs) took under consideration dur ing Estimates the consideration for Core fund ing. He said he would get back to us on that. Has the Min ister made a decision yet if the Manitoba EGO Network will be getting Core funding? * (14 20) Hon. Glen Cummings (Min ister of Environ ment): Mr. Speaker, the question is whether they get Core funding or whether there are other areas for which the EGO 4515 -

Monday, January 22, 19 90 Network can apply to get some funds with which they can operate. My department and I shortly will be continuing to work with them in order to see if there are areas for which they are prepared to accept responsi bility that may be of use to the environmental commun ity. Mr. Harapiak: Mr. Speaker, un fortunately, because of this delay in getting the Core fu nding, the Manitoba ECO Network is finding it necessary to lay the full-time staff off on February 28. Because of this, will the Min ister respond to the urgency that exists out there and contribute that Core funding at this time? Mr.

Cummi ngs: Mr. Sp eak er, the Environ mental Network has been in touch with my department on numerous occasions. They have been in touch with my assistant and with my Depu ty, and certainly I have been in contact with the head of the network. We have not provided any funds to this point but discussions have not ended, and I would sug gest that the members of the ECO Network continue to work with my department. Mr. Harapiak: Mr. Speaker, I was not able to hear all the answers the Min ister gave because of the nattering going on from the Members in front of me.

When is this Min ister going to take the environment of this province seriously? A group that is providin g information for all public groups, when will he come forward with the funding for this organ ization? Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, I think that we have just seen demonstrated why the NOP did not take the environment very seriously. They did not suppor t these organ izations to the level that they needed . Their idea of deal ing with the environmental concerns in this province is to provide motherhood-and-apple-pie comments to the environmentalists and do nothing else.

Health Advisory Network Acute Care Report Mr. Guizar Cheema (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, last Thursday -(interjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order , plea se; order, ple ase. The Honourable Member for Kildonan. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Speaker, last Thu rsday the Min ister of Health (Mr . Orchard) informed this House that the Health Advisory Network has received the report on the extended care facility. All the professionals, all health caregivers know about the report. Why is the Min ister not raising the report to this House, which is extremely important for the health care of Manitoba? Hon.

Donald Orchard (Min is ter of He alth): Mr. Speaker, the task force has reported to the steering committee. My un derstanding is the steering committee is seeking input and comment on the task force report. When they receive that, they will make their report to me as Min ister when they are so informed to do so. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Speaker, can the Min ister of Health inform us if he had a formal discussion with the Health Advisory Network on this specific issue? 4516 Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Speaker, I have, for app roximately two and a half months, been in contact with the Health Advisory Network seeking status of when I can expect the report on the extended treatment bed review. Mr. Cheema: On Thursda y, this Min ister of Health said that he had no knowledge of this report. Can he confirm this House that he misled us in this House? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend is the only one I know of who is capable of misleading the House when he makes that kind of a statement. My honourable friend asked me if I had a copy and had received the task force report. No, I have not.

The steering committee has received it, and it is the steering committee that reports to myself as Min ister of Health. That is the reporting process. For my honourable friend, the Liberal Health Critic, to make those wild accusations, further destroys his credibility in the health care field. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Win nipeg Education Centre Report Tabling Request Mr. Jerry Storie (F lin Flon): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Min ister of Educ ation.

Some time ago, some months ago, I requested that the Minister table a report that was being prepared on the Winn ipeg Education Centre, which delivers social work and teacher training programs to inner city residents in the City of Winnipeg, and he ind icated that the report was not final. Can he ind icate today whether the report is final? If it is, is he prepared to table that for the House today? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Mini ster of Ed ucation and Training): Mr. Speaker, the report has been completed in its final form.

We have shared it with the teaching staff at the Winnip eg Ed ucation Centre, and also the Un iversity of Manitoba has a copy of it. It indeed indicates that programs at the Winnip eg Education Centre are worthy of support, and indeed the staff there are doing a tremendous job at delivering programs to the students of the inner city. I would be pleased to table that report in short order. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. NON -POLITICAL STATE MENTS Mr. Mark Minenko (Seven Oaks): Mr. Speaker, if I can have leave to make a non-political statement. Mr.

Speaker: Does the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks have leave to make a non-political statement? (Ag reed) The Honourable Member for Seven Oaks. Mr . Mine nko: From today, Ukraine becomes independent. With these words, Michael Hrushevsky

Monday, January 22, 1990 pronou need Ukrainian independenc e on Janu ary 22, 1918 . These words were part of the 4th Un iversial, the document, which in direct langua ge, proclaims the full independence of the Ukrainian National Repu blic. This document also sets out the democratic policies which would guide this new nation. The legisla tors, who had gathered in Kiev that day, had assembled to begin the process of governing. However, with Soviet armies adva ncing ju st north of Kiev, the capital city, the legisla tors only had time to cheer the proclamation of inde pendence.

The holding of a constituent assembly had to wait for another day. Although we all know that this independenc e was short-lived, Mr. Speaker, the ideals of freedom and democracy have never died. Over the last several months, we have all watched the movement towards democracy throughout eastern Europe. I join today with many people around the world in hoping that there will be a peaceful return to democracy in Ukraine, and that the independe nce which was declared some 72 years ago today be returned to Ukraine. Some Honourable Members: Hear, hear! ***** Hon. Donald Or chard (M ini ster of Health): Mr.

Sp eake r, might I ha ve le ave for a non-political statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the Honour able Min ister of Health have leave to make a non-political statement? (Agreed) The Honourable Min ister of Health. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, I know all Members will join me in suppor ting the kick-off of National Non smoking Week Janu ary 22-28. We kicked it off this morning with the signing of a proclamation at Chur chill High School. I think it is important to recogn ize what the Manitoba lnteragency Council on Smoking and Health has done this year to promote National Non smoking Week.

The y ha ve taken probably the most inno vative appr oach of any of the provincial organ izations in that they have established a contest for Winnipeg and Selkirk high school students and rural and northern high school students to develop an anti-smoking theme-Break the Habit, et cetera, et cetera. As part of the incentive for participa tion, they ha ve brought to Winnip eg fou r members of the Degrassi Jr. High, the successful television series. I was at Chur chill High today to kick off the anti smoking week, and I am pleased, Mr.

Speaker, in a non-political way to say that the students of Chur chill High were the Winnip eg-Selkirk winners of the contest. They did an excellent job. But even more importantly, high school students from Pilo t Mound, in the constituency of Pembina , won the rural and northern group, and were present to accept their accolades for participating in breaking tha t evil, add ictive habit of smoking. * (1 430) I know, Mr. Speaker, that all Members of the House will join me in assisting those ind ividuals who are add icted to the habit of smoking and breaking that habit this week. Thank you. Mr.

Spea ker: Does the Honourabl e Mem ber for Kildonan have leave to make a non-political statement? (Ag reed) The Honourable Member for Kildonan. Mr. Guizar Cheema (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, we are pleased on this side of the House to join with the Min ister of Health in this special week, the Non-Smoking Week, which is very essential for a numb er of individua ls. I know, Mr. Speaker, you have taken the pledge, and we all compliment. I think we should follow your advice on that, I think we should follow your lead on that. I hope that we can control this smoking. Mr. Speaker, smoking affects all of us.

Smoking affects us at least in 22 different ways, by attacking the health, either through the lungs, or to the un born child, and also in the cardiovascular diseases. There is an estimate of at least, in 19 82, there were $7.2 billion spent, either in a direct cost or in an indirect cost, related to the smoking. It is extremely essential, and we will do everything possible from this side of the House to help the Min ister of Health (Mr . Orchard) and all the Man itobans to kick their bad habit and contribute to our economy in the long run. ***** Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member for Logan (Ms.

Hemphill) have leave to make a non-political statement? (Agr eed) The Honour able Memb er for Logan. Ms. Maureen Hemphill (Logan): Mr. Speaker, I ju st wanted to put on record for the House a few words about a very distingu ished person, Hugh Ross, who was the founder of the Winnip eg Symphony Orchestra. He died early yesterday. I think we all recogn ize that he was a very noted organ ist and conduc tor, his career spanned about 60 years, and that he founde d the Winnip eg Symphony Orchestra after leaving Engla nd, before he went to the Un ited States.

He prepared choruses with distinction for many great conductors, including Leonard Bernstein, Albert Webster, the managing director of the New York Philharmonic said, and he had a very long and important relationship with the New York Phil harmonic. He is going to be missed very much. He made a very major contribution to the cultural life of Winnip eg and we just want to remember it at this time. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. James Mccrae (G overnment House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, I think if you were to canvass the House you would find that there is ag reement that after the Estimates of the Department of Indus try, Trade and Tourism we would return to the Department of Labour and that, following Family Services, we would proceed to the Estimates of the Department of Educ ation and Training here in the Cham ber. 4517 - ·-

Monday, January 22, 19 90 So Mr. Speaker, I would move, seconded by the Hono urable Min ister of Highways and Transp ortation (Mr. Albert Driedger), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Sup ply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the Ho us e resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Su pply to be gr anted to Her Maje sty with the Honourable Member for Min nedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer) in the Chair for the Department of Indus try, Trade and Tourism; and the Honourable Member for St. Bonif ace (Mr. Gaudr

y) in the Chair for the Department of Fam ily Services. * (14 40) CONCUR RENT COMM ITT EES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY-I NDUS TRY, TRADE AND TO URISM Mr. Chairman (Har old Gilleshammer): Order, please. I call this

section of the Committee of Supply to order to consider the Estimates of the Department of Indus try, Trade and Tourism. When we la st sa t, the comm ittee had been considering item 2. (b) (1) , Sectoral Dev elopment, $1, 16 9,200-the Member for Seven Oaks. Mr. Mark Minenko (Seven Oaks): Mr. Chairman, would like to ask some more questions, perhaps the same question that I posed to the Min ister on Thu rsday and I hope maybe in the last few days he has had an oppo rtun ity to discuss this matter further.

I am just wondering if the Minis ter could outline how often the sectoral officers do their visits to indus tries and the sectors for which they are responsi ble. Hon. Jim Er nst (Minister of Ind ustry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Chairman, I think, as I ind icated the other day, they are in regula r contact with the indus try. The intent is not necessarily to visit every single business in the Province of Manitoba but to be in regular contact, to make sure that they have a feel for what is happen ing in the indus try. Regular contact in some industries may be once every six months.

Regular contact in some indus tries may be once a week, depen ding upon the industry, what is required and the state of that particular indus try. So to sug gest that they have a call

schedule that requires them to visit a numb er of businesses on a specific regular basis does not allow the flexibility into the department that it requires and we do no t have a fixed level of visitation, as the Member sugge sts we should have.

Mr. llllinenko: I am certainly not suggesting it to restrict the operations, but I would certainly suggest that, as the Min ister sug gested, the whole issue of flexibili ty but if this area is really the sharp end of the stick then I certainly would have expected some sort of a regular pattern to their activities in order to detect trends and so on. 451 8 With that aside then, I would like to then look to one of the activity identifications of this particular sector and ask the Min ister, how is the contact maintained with federal offset program staff? Mr. Ernst: Firstly, Mr.

Chairman, we have one Sectoral Senior Development Officer, Mr. Bob Jack, who in fact does maintain a liaison both with bidders with respect to those major contracts, takes them around, helps them with deal ing with the federal people, soliciting information, making sure that the bids and so on are timely and meet certain specific criteria, tries to help them in terms of introducing them to the correct people of the federal bureaucracy in order to get appropr iate information and focus. Of cou rse, in addition to that now with the Ottawa office operational and Mr.

Bla ckwood in place there, he will also be working in that area qu ite a bit along with the procurement officer who will be hired to help staff that office. Mr. Minenko: Okay, we heard last week from the Min ister that he had not heard of the research being conduc ted by Central Plains and nor was he aware of other research that was being conduc ted in other parts of the province. I und erstand that the Min ister's view toward it is whoever wants to do economic research that is fine with them, and his department has their particular own agenda.

I can appreciate that position, but I am still quite concerned that there is no one the Minister seems to have in place to either provide assistance, advice or offer sug gestions and co-ordination perhaps in this whole area of economic research being done throughout Manitoba. Having said that, I would still like to ask the Min ister what his research, perhaps coming from this

section in his department, is with respect to the future of food processing in Man itoba. What are some of the issues that he feels need to be addressed, and how does his department intend to add ress those issues? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Chairman, first of all, as I unde rstand the matter it is between the Central Plains Commu nity Futures Corporation who contracted with the Man itoba Research Counci l, Cana dian Food Prod ucts Development Centre branch, to conduc t a study.

The Manitoba Research Council derives-first of all, it is an arm 's length organ iza tion from Go vernment, although we do provide a sign ificant grant to it and do appoint the board of directors. The Ma nitoba Research Cou ncil obtains about between 50 percent and 60 percent of its revenue from private consulting contracts. It deals with a wide variety of indus try people on a regu lar basis throughout the year. There is no way that any Min ister-I do not care who it is-is going to be aware of every single contract the Ma nitoba Research Council unde rtakes.

That is not being realistic. * (1 450) I also und erstand, further to our meeting of last Thursda y, that in fact the steering committee of this group had not seen the report which the Member for

Monday, January 22, 19 90 Seven Oaks (Mr. Min enko) had referred to. In fact, it had been leaked, I gather, to him and to the Agriculture Critic who raised the same questions with the Min ister of Agriculture (Mr. Findla

y) during Agriculture Estimates. The fact of the matter is, as I ind icated on Thursday, that no decision has been taken as of yet. Until such time as that has been taken then the matter is advanced either to Government or wherever, would we have reason to be in contact with it or reason to know as to what they are proposing to do. With respec t to the food proc essing indus try, obviously value-added food processing is one of the areas that we wish to pursue in terms of niche markets.

As I ind icated I think at the beginning of Estimates, we had aerospace, micro-electronics, health ind ustry products, and food processing as sort of the four major areas of focus for our department's initiatives in terms of niche markets for Manitoba. We see opportunities there. However, in the case of Portage la Prairie in particular, they ha ve a signif icant problem with respect to infrastructure there that has to be add ressed before any wet processing indus try could begin to think to locate there. At the present time, their infrastructure is inadequa te to serve present demand.

To increase that demand would be, without making major impacts on that infrastructure, foolhardy, Mr. Chai rman. We are also addr essing the ques tion of the infrastructure as part of the SDI initiatives, if and when they come about. Until such time as we are able to resolve that, then Portage la Prairie with regard to wet indus try has a significant ·p roblem that is difficult to overcome.

At the same time, I think we ind icated too that the que stion of the Crow offset payment will ha ve a sign ificant impact on the second ary processing of particularly meat products as well as other products, can ola being another that may well benefit from such a payment. There are matters on the horizon. We are working with a numb er of ind ustries of course to replace for instance the facility that will be lost in Ca mpbell Soup in February or Ma rch of 19 91. We are working with ind ustry sectors there to try and find suitable replacements, as well as a numb er of other initiatives.

A good example of that would be the oat processing facility that did go into Portage la Prairie just recently as another value-added item. Spring hill, we talked about as well last week. We are certainly looking to see that we can maintain that facility with the value-added component to it. I do not have four I can pull out of my hat and say we are open ing these tomorrow, but we are well involved in the industry and have a high degree of focus on it. Mr.

Minenko: Perhaps one of my final questions again is-because we have qu ite a bit more to cover this afternoon-the Min ister annou nced four areas that his department is looking at as expan ding our capacity in Ma nitoba. In order to be able to fulfi ll that capacity or develop that capab ility, we obviously need personnel. One of the concerns that has been expressed to myself is that people in some of the ind ustries being set out by the Minis ter, some of the employers, have had to go not only to other provinces in Canada but in fact overseas to find suitable people to work in those indus tries.

Can the Min ister advis e us what initiatives his department has taken, either by themselves or in co operation with the Department of Educa tion, to ensure that Manitobans will indeed be in the position to take advantage of some of these positions as they become available and as the new ind ustries develop?

Although I un ders tand, having attended the Manuf acturers' Association Conference last year where people from the health initiative were out and where people from the industry that have converted from what they used to do and applied into a health situation, I do not think those people are looking to expand or need employees who have different skills. My concern is that we do not start importing workers to take presumably hig h-paying jobs in these ind ustries.

I would like to ask the Min ister what initiatives he has taken and loo ked at, either his department or with Education and Training, to ensure Manitobans take those jobs? Mr. Er nst: Firstly, Mr. Chairman, the Skills Training Advisory Task Force, contained in the Department of Educa tion and Trai ning, is charged with the responsi bility of trying to meet indus try demand for jobs with trained workers. Now that is very difficult to do, par ticula rly in the lon ger-term stream.

There traditionally has been, and I guess maybe there always will be, some either oversuppl y or und ersupply of trained workers for specific indus tries depen ding upon how well those ind ustries do over a period of time and how qu ickly the training people can be responded to. Of course, our department is very involved with that. We do a conside rable amount of liaison with indus try in order to try and meet those requirements. With regard to the garment indus try, which is one wher e there is a sign ificant component of new immigrant labour, there is a problem in trying to balanc e off.

There is a constant need for people in that ind ustry. The last I heard was about 800 jobs going begging because they cannot find people to work. Their concern of course is they would like to import-for the industry's concern -all of those workers immediately, trained sewing machine operators in particular.

Our view has been that while we respect the need for workers, we also respect the need that existing Canadians have to have employment opportunities and we try and put a blend together between training existing Canadians to work in those trades and blending those with import workers so that the ind ustry does not starve itself because of a lack of labour. Not a particularly easy thing to do, but nonetheless we have been working together quite closely with Educa tion and Training to try and balance the need for workers with the training requirements that they will have in order to obtain those jobs. Mr.

Minenko: This is a sup plemental resulting from the Min ister's answer then. You say you are working 4519 - -

Monday, January 22, 1990 with Educa tion and Training. I am ju st wondering if the Min ister can highli ght how his department is going to be working. * (15 00) Mr. Ernst: I could ind icate, Mr. Chairman, that our department sits on the task force of the training initiative, and our people, our sectoral officers, and everybody else qu ite frankl y in the department who has contact with ind ustry discusses the ind ustry's problems with them from time to time, includ ing the question of labour.

That feedback comes back to the department and is addressed to the Skills Training Task Force on a regular basis, so we do provide that feedback from indus try. Before I go any further, Mr. Chairman, there was a request last Thu rsday with regard to the Transportation

section of the Min ister's office. I can advise that the bud get was at $29,000, and the actual for'88 -89 was $34,200 of which $8, 100 was automobile expens es related to the Min ister and the Depu ty. I can table that with the committee. Mr. Leonard Evans (B randon East): Mr. Chairman, I thank the Minister for that information, but I also thought we were going to get a list of the various trade missions and ind ustry missions that were taken by yourself and/ or the senior staff. I un derstood the Min ister had und ertaken to do that. Mr. Ern st: Mr. Chairman, I ind icated I would pull that information together.

We have not yet been able to do it in time for today's meeting. I will be prepared to table that as quickly as we can get it prepared . Mr. Leonard Evans: That would be fine, but I would trust we can get it within the next few days. As I und erstand it, we are going to wind this up hopefully by five o'clock, although we could go on. We could go on for six weeks as we have done previously, but we do not intend to do that although there are a lot of questions, and frankly we could indeed spend many a day asking some fairly good questions, hopefully in a positive way, and do our job as Members of the Opposition .

I am going to jus t touch on a few things. Aerospace indus try, I do not know what priority the department is giving to this ind ustry in this division, but could the Min ister upda te us on any general prospects in this particular indus try? There ha ve been some developments. We have been disappoi nted of course with the CF -18, but then subsequently there was the CF-5 contract and other contracts. Particularly, I was wondering if the Min ister had any comment about the recent news report about Boeing laying off, I do not know, 5,000 workers. This may all be in the Seattle area, but I do not know.

I wonder whether the Min ister had that kind of information. Mr. Ernst: We have had no notice of any layoffs in the Man itoba plant, although I am surprised that Boeing would be laying anybody off at the moment considering their order book is jammed. I happ ened to visit the Boeing plant last summer and found that they were in fact sign ificantly behind

schedule in terms of delivery of ai rcraft, plus the fact I gu ess they had a strike. That may have had something to do with that. They were in a strike situation for six weeks or better this past fal l, and that may have had some kind of impact. In terms of the aerospace indus try itself, Bristol of course is running at optimum levels of employment of late. The CF -5 contract is a very sign ificant contract for them. They are extremely pleased with the level of activity that they are getting.

We have a numb er of other compan ies involved in the aerospace ind ustry whom I am going to lead in a trade delegation to Seattle, in Ma rch I believe it is, to talk to Boeing about some potential suppli er networks out of Man itoba, not ju st at the Man itoba plant, but in fact to other Boeing operations elsewhere in Canada and the U.S. We ha ve a very sign ificant aerospa ce sector in Manit oba. We ha ve very good qu ality people, contractors who can in fact provide good product to compan ies like Boeing .

It is our intention to try and meld, or marry if you will, our ind ustry players as contractors to the major contractor Boeing and others in terms of supplying those products to them. Qual ity control is good. Expertise is good. Experience is good. We want to see them expand their horizons somewhat, and I have taken a personal initiative to try and do that . Mr. Leonard Evans: Just going on to the apparel industry, the Min ister did say earlier about the continuing problem, I gu ess it has been going on ever since time immemorial, about lack of labour, the lack of an adequate numb er of workers.

However, we also know that there is a lot of competition in the marketplace, cheap imports from all over the world. What is the state of the local app arel textile indus try, given the fact that there is a great deal of competition? Has the ind ustry grown in Mani toba at all in the last year or two? Is it standing still or is it shrinking? Mr. Ernst: From my discussions with the industry, which I have on a fairly regula r basis, the Manitoba ind ustry, in terms of the low, first of all, Ma nitoba's apparel ind ustry by and large is not in the low-cost market.

They are not trying to compete with long runs for workwear and things that are produced either in the offshore markets or in some of the huge plants in the U. S. where they have these very long runs. The strength of the Manitoba fashion ind ustry, by and large, has been in its abil ity to quickly react to changing market conditions and to seek out niche markets in terms of, in many cases, high fashion types of appa rel. The ind ustry I think has certainly maintained its own in terms of-I sup pose moderate growth has occurred.

There have been a numb er of new companies come back into the market, looking again at these niche markets. We have some entrepreneurial immigrants who have come here to get into the market as well, and we think we still maintain a very vibrant market. They are very bullish of course on the opp ortunities that they have, and they have been in the U.S. market for a long, 4520

Monday, January 22, 1990 long time in terms of their exp ort sales, so they seem to be bulli sh. We are working with them on a regular basis, and I do discuss the matters with the Manitoba Fashion In stitute every couple of months or so. Mr. Leonard Evans: On the electronics industry, I think this one of your priority areas. UN ISYS is one of the bigger manu facturers. UN ISYS some years ago was able to sell some produ ct to MOS and we un derstood there would be an expan sion on that account. I believe it took pla ce. I am just wondering, could the Min ister report on the state of this industry here.

I am not expec ting the Min ister to kno w all the details of ind ividu al company operations, I do not expect that, but just the general impression. Are you satisfied with the development that is occurring in electronics? I use UN ISYS just as one example. I know there are some others. Mr.

Ern st: In terms of Manitoba's exports, agricultural products of course still remain the No. 1 export in the Provinc e of Ma ni toba, but interestingl y enou gh, something that I did not know when I became the Min ister, and I am sure most Min isters would not know when they came to that position, is that computer and computer-related produ cts are our No. 2 export in the Province of Manitoba.

We do very well, as a matter of fact, not only from the hardware standpoint, but from a wide variety of software people who have developed some extremely uniq ue produ cts and who continue to work in the R and D sector in terms of developing new software produc ts for app lications in the marketplace. It is growing, as a matter of fact, on a regular basis, ably assisted by the lnf oTech component of our department who works with those software people on a regular basis. UNIS YS of course is a major manu facturer of products. They operate three distinct different divisions here.

They operate a defence produ cts division which has had some exc ellent contracts. They had the Canadian Fri ga te Program for ins tance for their operating systems as opposed to weapons systems, you know, the ones that run the heating and the air conditioning and so on on board ship. They had the computer contract for that. They have a similar one for the U.S. Navy for a program there and have in fact employed a sign ificant number of hig her-paid people such as engi neers. I think their engi neering staff grew from six to 60 in about a year and a half or so when they started getting these contracts.

From that point of view, I am quite pleased that we can start to see some of the R and D components related to those things starting to be done here in Ma nitoba as oppo sed to simply just churn ing out the ha rdware. The same of course goes with the software that fits into these things, again a major focus area, one that we want to continue to work on.

We have had a num ber of contacts within the indu stry, both for potential new plant operations-I guess the Hughes Airc raft Proposal for Manitoba would also fit into that category in terms of the sensing devices that they are proposing to build here in Manitoba and to be the major centre for that activity within their company, so that again sort of builds on the existing. * (1510 ) We do have other contacts that we have made, a couple of Ja pane se compan ies who are looking at potential devel opments of manu facturing facilities, interestingly enough here, particularly to feed the U.S. market.

I guess they feel a little better level of comfort with Canad ians than they do with sort of being in the U.S. market directly, and with of course free trade they have that opp ortunity to ship, once the product is at least 50 percent value added in Canada, free into the U.S. with no tariff. They are I think pleased that the potential exists here. We are certainly hopeful we can convinc e them that Ma nitoba is a good place to do that. Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr.

Chairman, I am not going to go into any further questions on that, but I wanted to go on to another program which I believe is under the Indu stry & Trade Division. That is the Bu siness Immigration program. Mr. Chairman: On Section (1) , Sectoral Development, shall the item pass- Mr. Minenko: I just have a couple of quick questions then to wrap it up. Mr. Leonard Evans: Sorry, just as a point of order, which

section is it specifically? An Honourable Member: It is in the next one under Inv estment Promotion. Mr. Leonard Evans: Oh, I see. It is the same item. Okay. Mr. Minenk o: I just have a couple of quick questions to wrap up. I would like to-with respect to aerospace indu stry. One of the comments that has been made to me is, because of the nature of the activity, there is not really all that great a need to have industries located right here in Winnip eg. We are sort of devel oping a general aerospace group area.

Can the Min ister confirm that is indeed a possibil ity of establishing aerospace support industries, parts indu stries, outside the perimeter of Wi nnip eg and whether the department is looking at some of these initiatives and promotion of places perhaps like Gimli, Beausejour, et cetera? Mr. Ernst: As I ind icated on Thursd ay, the department points out relative opportunities for companies to locate throughout the province.

If you want to go somewhere where there is jus t a fantastic airpor t with great infrastructure facilities, you should go to Chur chill because it has probably the finest airport facilities in Manitoba but not everybody wants to locate in Churchill obviously. The compan ies themselves will pick and choose. We tend to infl uenc e them somewhat by pointing out opportunities for them elsewhere in the province. We do that on a regular basis with most 4521 - •

Monday, January 22, 1990 indus tries where they need not necessarily locate directly in Winnip eg. Mr. Minenko: I am not qu ite sure how the Minis ter answered the question. Perhaps upon reflection of Hansard, I will be able to follow that up in concu rrence. Final ly, the whole issue of environmental industry and sustainable development, I think the Min ister's answers to questions were again sort of not qu ite very definite, certainly not encoura ging.

I am ju st wondering if the Min ister can advis e what initia tives he and his department have in place in co-operation or without the co-operation of the Department of Environment to encou rage and provide assistance to ind ustries who have an environ mentally safe aspect to them such as deal ing with contaminants or recyclable ind ustries or things like this so that we are not looking at shipping south of the border or west or east. Mr. Ernst: Mr. Chairman, firstly when they say the Government in general has adopted a sustainable development strategy, that is its policy.

No grants or loan activity is given to any company that does not meet sustainable development activity. On the one side, they are covered. They have to comply or they do not get any Government funding. On the other side, in terms of encoura ging indus tries that are in fact producing prod ucts that will assist indus try in general to meet the sustainable development strategy, we have worked with them. We were qu ite involved for instance in setting up the Environ mental Indus tries Associa tion, which is head quartered in Winnip eg. We have direct input into the sustainable development.

We have a staffperson seconded to the sustainable development unit as a matter of fact and are working very closely with the federal Government in terms of attempting to finali ze the Centre for Sustainable Development for Manitoba. Mr. Minenko: Just a final note then on this section, I would like to ask the Min ister later on when we come to grants or something whether he can set out what the qual ifications are that they look for with respect to the sustainability-if that is such a word. If his staff can find that, I would app reciate it. It will save me time later. This item can pass. Mr.

Chairman: Item 2.(b)( 1 )(

a) Salaries, $860,200- pass; (

b) Other Expe nditures, $309,000-pass. 2.

(2) In vestment Promotion $806,000, (

a) Salaries, $359,300-the Member for Seven Oaks. Mr. Minenko: I would like to touch on what the Member for Bran don is going to be looking at questioning as well, which is the whole issue of business immigrants in Canada and specifically into Man itoba. I unde rstand there are three programs in which they may qualif y, as well as in the federal documents. It sets out in their Guide to Canada Busine ss Immigration Program the provincia l role in this program.

I do not know if the Minis ter has those specifics, but I am just wondering if he could perhaps advise us as to how the Province of Manitoba meets the roles as set out by the federal Government, and what they are doing with respect to that aspect. Mr . Er nst: In general terms, Mr. Chairman, for business-you are talking about now the Immigrant In vestor Pr og ram. The provi ncial Go vernment's involvement in that is it receives and reviews proposals that are made to the federal Immigration Department.

In reviewing those proposals, the principal object is to determine that there is economic benefit to Manitoba and within the guidelin es as establ ished by the federal Government. Onc e that is determined, then these pro posals are then forwarded on with Man itoba's comments with respect to them. Mr . Minen ko: One of the roles that the federal Government sets out in this guide- I guess you have it-is some criteria to be met by the business immigrant. Has the department set that criteria to be met? Can the Min ister perhaps provide us with a copy of the criteria that they have, if they have set it? Mr.

Ernst: Yes, Mr. Chairman, we do have a set of guidelin es, and we will be happy to provide those. Mr. Minenk o: Okay, can the Min ister advise us when we could receive them. Perhaps this is something for a concu rrence motion? Mr. Ernst: The ind ication is we could provide that tomorrow or the next day. * (1 520) Mr. Minenk o: One of the comments ju st recently actually this weekend the Law Society of Manitoba sponsored an immigration seminar. One of the aspects to the program was looking at exactly this type of immigration into Man itoba.

I und erstand from statistics that I have been able to compile that the numb er of people qual ifying or coming into Manitoba pursuant to the Busi ness Immigration Program is relatively low. One of the questions that arose was that Man itoba that some time ago, presumably when the program started, all the provinces required some sort of business plan set up before an immigrant could set up shop here in Manitoba. I am jus t wondering whether the Min ister is aware that other provinces have cancelled that particular requirement.

Does this Government intend to re-exam ine that requirement in light of the change s in other provinces? Mr. Ernst: I am advised, Mr. Chairman, that there is a conditional visa program which does not require a business plan. We do the same thing. We have to compete with other provinces. On the conditional visa program, we do not require a business plan. Mr. Minenko: Under what conditions then does the Min ister's department require a business plan from business immigrants? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Chairman, the conditional visa type thing really gives the entrepreneurial immigrants sort of a 4522

Monday, January 22, 19 90 year or two to find an appropria te busine ss to get into and so on but, where a visa is issued on the strength of an entrepreneurial immigrant coming in to do a specific thing, it is based on the business he proposes to either start up, rejuvenate or whatever. That business plan forms the basis upon which the visa is granted. Mr. Minen ko: What class of business immigrant would that then appl y to? I un derstand there are three classes, so what class would that particular aspect apply to? Mr. Ernst: Entrepreneurial immigrants. Mr. Minenko: One of the problems cited with respect to the whole operation of this program a couple of years ago in an

article in the Free Press was the inability of any of the Governments to track where these people actually end up settling and where they actually set up operation. What is the Min ister's pol icy with respect to-I also un derstand that the conditional permit or visa has to be signed off by a provincial representative, presumab ly at some senior level. I am jus t wondering if the Min ister can advise as to what the pol icy is of this Government with respect to signing off conditional visas. Mr. Ernst: Mr. Chairman, we are not in the habit of signing off visas un less the person is here living and working.

However, once that occurs, they have every right that you and I have as Canadian citizens. If they want to move somewhere else in the country, that is their choice, and we canno t do anything about that. It is unfortunate but it does occur from time to time. Again it is a free country, and I do not think any of us here at this table would want to restrict the rights of other Cana dians as to where they can or cannot work, live and carry on their lives. Mr. Minenko: Who signs off these conditional visas for this Government? Mr. Ernst: The Assistant Deputy Min ister of Indus try and Trade. Mr.

Minenko: What is the policy with respect to signing off conditional visas for business immigrants who had originally intended to settle in another province? Does this Go vernment sign off those visas should they establish themselves in the Province of Mani toba? Mr. Ernst: We are not sure. We have never had a case to do that. If and when it arises we will have to add ress it, but up to this point we have not had to. Mr. Minen ko: Is there any interprovincial ag reement with respect to this signing off of visas? Mr.

Ernst: The general terms of the cond itional visa is they must preselect where they want to go in the country. If they preselect Mani toba, for instance, then that is where they have to go. That is where their activity has to occur. If it does not occur in Ma nitoba, then they have breached the conditions of the conditional visa, and whatever results from that results from that. There is no need for an interprovincial ag reement because .they have to preselect in advance. Mr.

Minenk o: A final question is I think in this whole section, although agai n other questions perhaps during concurrence will arise, as part of the expected results of this particular division, it cites here that we would want to attract 40 entrepreneurial immigrants investing $4 million to $5 million dol lars in Manitoba-based enterprises, as well as a provision for $50 million in the In vestor Cla ss program funds. I am just wondering if the Min ister can advise us, seeing tha t we are a couple of short months away from the fiscal year, how has that objective been met. How close are we to meeting that objective?

Mr . Er nst: Mr. Chairman, in 19 88 we had 47 entrepreneurs visaed, with a total of appr oximately $20 million in investment. Again it is sometimes difficult to sort of push them in one ear or another, and the thing might be a little offset from year to year, because you start working with somebody and it takes forever and a day sometimes to get a visa through. While your statistical data deals with people that you are working with, the actual visaed entrepreneurs happen when they happen .

You are working with somebody for two or three years and spending a lot of time on it but, by the time their visa actually gets issued, it sometimes takes that length of time. We would like to see a lot more, qu ite frank ly. I think all of us would like to see more in that area, but we do have a client working list, for instance, in our Hong Kong office at the moment of about 500 or a little more than 500 whom we are working with.

Now they are not all going to be successful and so on, but when you say we are getting maybe 10 percent of those on a yearly basis sort of visaed and into the cou ntry it jus t takes a long time. The Cana d ian commission in Hong Kong for instance, it is a minimum of one year before a visa gets issued virtually un der almost any circumstances. They ju st do not have the staff there, unfortunately, to handle the kind of workload that is being put on them. Mr. Minen ko: I have a fina l question then.

Deal ing with the investors program, I un derstand that none of the other pro vi nc es ha ve successfu l funds going. I un derstand Saskatchewan has a relatively successful fund where quite a numb er of investors have placed their money in that for investment in whatever. I was jus t wondering if the Min ister could advise us as to what status Manitoba is at with respect to developing fund from the inv estors

section of the Busi ness Immigration Program. Mr. Ernst: Mr. Chairman, we have about 10 venture capital funds in the Province of Ma nitoba that are fun ded through the Immigrant In vestor Program. At the present time, there are another dozen or so specific projects that are being fun ded under the Immigrant In vestor Program. We do not see a need for the Government to get involved. In terms of success, quite frankly, the Saskatchewan Government, for all the hoopla that you get, our information is first of all that it is not gu aranteed by the Province of Saskatchewan, although it is being sold 4523

Monday, January 22, 19 90 from time to time, we unde rstand, on the basis that it is gu aranteed by the Province of Saska tchewan . It is a $100 million fund. I think the level of investment to date is somewhere between $20 million and $30 million, and it has been on the market for a year. So I am not so sure that you can really classify that as successful. At the same time we have, for instance, the Canad ian Maple Leaf Fund, which is a Ma nitoba fund, has been able to subscribe its full amount within days of its being offered so far. Whether that will continue, we do not know.

Qu ite frankly, immigrant investors are getting a little more selective. They are taking a little closer look now that there has been some experience with regard to these funds. There will be warts, shall we say, from time to time as those funds continue, and there will be problem areas where people will be unha ppy because of the way their money has been treated. That, generally speaking, we do not anticipate being a problem in Manitoba, because we have kind of gone a little bit slower in this whole matter than some others who kind of rushed head long into it.

So we think our people who have been investing so far in funds related to Manitoba will be reasonably prudent in the way the funds are invested. They are very reputable people who are involved in these funds, so we do not think there should be a problem. • (1 530) Mr. Minenko: One truly final question in this area, can the Min ister un dertake to provide us with a list of these funds, the add resses which are available and any terms and conditions of these funds some time later this week? Mr. Ernst: You bet. Mr. Leonard Evans: On a point of order.

I do not how we are going to get through by four o'clock at the rate we are going, and I am not trying to cut off any questions. I have one question, Mr. Chairman. Where is the

section deal ing with grants to regional develop ment organ izations, or is that no longer in this department? Mr. Er nst: It is under the Depar tment of Rur al Development. Mr. Leonard Evans: I see a smile on the Minis ter's face, and I am not so sure what that all means. There used to be a community and corporate relations branch, I believe, and you had the Regional Develop ment organization money in there, so could I ask this question then of the Min ister?

There are no officials of the department working outside in specific regions or co operating with specific regions, except I suppose for specific ind ustrial projects, whether it be a hog pla nt in Neepawa, an agricultural implement plant in Portage? Mr. Ernst: We operate a Brandon office, Mr. Evans, I am sure you are aware of that. We have a Development Officer there, Mr. Steve Davidge, who I am sure you are also familiar with. We also have an officer in Thompson, I believe.

Of course, all our department officials, regardless of where their office hap pens to be lo cated , do work throughout the Provi nce of Manitoba. ' Mr. Leonard Evans: Of course I realized you had an office in Brandon, but I was not clear from the previous answer whether that too, for some reason or other, was being transferred or had been transferred over to the Rural Economic Development Department. Well, the Member for Seven Oaks (Mr.

Minenko) asked some of the questions I was going to ask, and I am not going to go after that, except I wanted to know about the Rotterdam office because I see in your last annual report reference was made to it trying to promote Euro pean capital inv estment in Man itoba. I was wondering if the Min ister could upda te us on what has been happening in this relatively new office, although it has been around now a couple of years. Has there been much success? Have we attracted some European entrepreneurs to Ma nitoba? Mr. Ern st: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, the Rotterdam office has been working qu ite dil igently, as a matter of fact. They have had an opportunity to be involved in a numb er of compan ies right across the main part of Europe, Western Europe at least anyway. Last year I believe there were 22 cases which were successfully conclude d , and we have had people immigrate to Canada investing money and so on-22 . Mr. Leonard Evans: I can appreciate the fact that there is not the same pressure in Europe as there is in Hong Kong. There is a very special situation in Hong Kong, as we all know about.

I guess my question to the Chairman is, is the Min ister saying that he is satisfied with the operations of that office, at least with respect to attracting Europeans? Mr. Ernst: What is happen ing in Eastern Europe at the moment, I do not think anybody can predict what the end results of that will be and what opportunities will be presented in terms of immigration, pa rticularly entrepreneurial immigration. Contrary to a lot of popular opinion, there are people with money in the Eastern Bloc who may wish to become involved in terms of immigrating and becoming an entrepreneur in Canada.

In addition to that of course, because ju st the general pressures of Eu rope, the popula tion and so on, there are people who are looking at potential involvement in North America.

At the same time, when they see the sort of polarization of sort of Europ e 19 92 and Fortress North America, if you will, under the Free Trade Agreement, both of which are kind of perceptions only I think from as near as we can tell, there is a potential for one to want to get involved in the other just to protect their future markets and/or get into, particularly wanting to get into the U.S. market through some other opportunity, yet feel more comfortable, if you will, with Canad a as opposed to the Un ited States. So we have had both things coming forward. We would like to see more, quite frankly.

We know that 4524

Monday, January 22, 1990 historically we are familiar with European immigrants, particularly to western Canada. In the overall scheme of things, I sup pose they may adapt better to our way of life here than people who come from a sub-tropical climate, for instance, who might find it very difficult. In a numb er of things we are working on, we would like to see our horizons expan ded a little bit in terms of Europ e. We are looking into some ways and means we can do that at the moment. Mr. Leonard Evans: So I ga ther that the Rotterdam office will be continued on for the indefinite future. Mr.

Ern st: Well, our presence in Europe will continue on into the foreseeable future, yes. Whether it is that particular one or some other configuration or that plus something else, we are not too sure at the moment. We are working on a project there. Mr. Leonard Evans: In view of the time constraints, then I would sugge st we pass this item and go on to the financial programs. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? Item 2.( b)(2)(

b) Other Exp enditures, $446, 700-pass. Item 2. (

c) Financial Programs: Provides fina ncial support, equ ity or incentives to compan ies involved in manuf acturing, processing, research or commercial development of technological ideas. Item 2. (c)( 1) Salaries, $523 ,400-the Member for Seven Oaks. Mr. Minenk o: Yes, shortly after the Government took office, I und erstand they received a Price Waterhouse report with respect to a review of the Government's business development programs. In there was a list of recommenda tions with respect to some of the almost 80 programs and half a dozen or so departments of Government.

I am just wondering if the Min ister can advise us what status the recommendations are at, at this time. Mr. Ernst: Mr. Chairman, when the report was done we ag reed with some, we did not ag ree with some, but what we did do as other department's have done is prepare an action plan which is presently before the Ma nagement Review Committee of Cabin et. The y are in the process of reviewing that. Mr. Min en ko: Without reveal ing I presu me some Cabi net secrets, I am just wondering if the Min ister could advise us as to what the general thrust of his particular department is.

I presume it is the lead department of all these grants that are geared towards promotion of an ind ustrial activity in the Province of Manitoba. * (1 540) Mr. Erns t: There are very few grants associated with this activity. Primarily it is loans. There is a perception out there that somehow Government is sho velling the money out in terms of grants. In fact in most cases now, grants are very limited, mostly in terms of stud ies, as cost-shared participation in studies, but the physical type of financing that goes on is now not in the form of grants but primarily in the form of repayable loans. Mr.

Min enko: Tha t is the general thrust of the chan ges with respect to the recommendations of the Price Waterhouse report? Mr. Er nst: I did not say that. I said that has been the general thrust of the department at the present time. Tha t was qu ite apart from Price Waterhouse. Tha t is more a philosoph ical app roach of the Government of the Day, I sup pose, than what was done previously. I cannot obviously tell you what the department's action pla n is until such time as it is app roved by Cabi net. Mr.

Minenk o: Again, although there are lots of potential questions throughout this whole area with respect to accountability, perhaps I would just like to ask a specific question. Has the department changed any of the rules and regula tions with respect to accountability for grants and loans and so on? Mr. Er nst: Let me say first of all that it is not so much accou ntability as security for taxpayers' money that is being put out in these cases. In days gone by, security was not necessarily a major factor. Today it is.

We will not do it un less we have in our view adequate security, security in the way of real properties, security in the way of reasonable evaluation of assets, equipment and things of that nature. Because a machine is $100,000 new, it may only be worth $50,000 on a distress sale market. Tha t is what we will base our security on, not on the $1 00,000.00. So we ha ve gone some conside rable way in terms of ensuring that we have security for the money that we advance. Mr.

Minenk o: Out of the report provided by the OECD called Educa tion, the Economy and the Change in Society, there lists a numb er of recommendations with respect to education and training and the economy and how var ious count ries should deal with this particular issue, which is becoming that educa tion is indeed a lifetime endeavour and we should be looking at it. I under stand that General Motors in Toronto spends more money on education and training than the Un iversity of Toronto does.

I am just wondering whether the Min ister's department has seen this, has reviewed this document, and are they indeed looking at developing any grants, loans or other provisions to encou rage training, upgrad ing and so on at the job site? Mr. Ernst: By and large, directly the department is not doing that, nor does it contemplate doing that. There are existing programs both in the federal Government's sphere and in the provincial Government's sphere under Educ ation and Training that adequ ately deal with those matters.

What we do is our officials direct interested parties or people in need of assistance in those areas through to the proper departments either on the federal or provincial basis. Mr. Minenko: Fina lly, the Business Start Program, when can I apply for it or when can any Man itoban apply for this program? 4525

Monday, January 22, 19 90 Mr. Ernst: I am just advised that we have just received back the agreements with the banks and credit unions who will be delivering the program in the field. They have got one or two chan ges that they feel are necessary to the agreement. We are working those through with them at the moment, so as soon as those are done I would suspect- Mr. Minenk o: I thought you did that last May, Ju ne, July, August. Mr. Ernst: Mr. Chairman, until such time as these things are app roved by the Legislature, you can not-we did have some preliminary meetings with them and so on.

Until such time as we have, and it is an unfortunate way of doing things in the Government, I thought we could have carried out some of these things prior to the formal passage of the loan Act, but I was advised that the way the bu reaucracy works is that that is not how it is done. We have to wait. I would ha ve thought we could have printed all the appl ication forms and got all of these things done and so on well in advance so that when the loan Act was passed, away you went. I sup pose if it did not pass, then they are stuck with all this stuff and what are you going to do with it?

In any event, regardless of what has or has not gone on in the past, that is where we are at. We are weeks away from making the formal annou ncement. Mr. Leonard Evans: I had earlier said pass on item (1) . I was going to go from (1) to (2) and then to (3) which is the substantive, it is just a detail. Mr. Chairman: Item 2. (c)

(2) Other Expen di tures, $38 ,900-pass; item 2. (cX3) Programs, $6, 13 0,800. This is comprised of a numb er of sections. Item 2. (cX3Xa) Ma nitoba Ind ustrial Opp ortunities, $3,300,000-the Member for Bran don East. Mr. Leonard Evans: I was wanting to know from the Min ister whether last year's bud get of $3.4 million was totally utilized? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Chairman, the amount of money of course located there is not the amount of money that is loaned but in fact the cost of loaning it. So part of that money is comm itted prior to the year because of existing loans for which there is an interest cost.

Those loans made in'88,'87,'8 6, whatever, that are ongoing have an interest cost. That is included in that amoun t as well as an estimate of approxima tely how much of that interest cost is going to be for new programs that are entered into. Now depen ding upon the cash flow, depending upon projects when they come on stream and so on, that numb er will alter not insign ificantly as the year goes on. So we do not have an actual expen diture numb er to give you there, but the expectation is it probably was not all us ed up. Mr.

Leonard Evans: Perhaps that explains why you ha ve a lower estimate this year, $ 3.3 millio n as compared to $3.4 millioin. Mr. Ernst: It is the cost of borrowing to grant those loans, by and large. Mr. Leonard Evans: Could the Minister then advise the committee approxima tely what was the amount of loan lending last year relating to $3.4 million which I un derstand is interest costs, et cetera, but what about the actual lend ing, approxima tely how much money was loaned under "In dustrial Opportunities"? Mr.

Ernst: We do not have exact num bers again for that, but jus t having a brief conversation here with the staff, somewhere in the area of $10 million to $12 million committed, not necessarily spent, depending upon what stage projects are at and so on. Mr. Leonard Evans: How many jobs did that relate to? Mr. Ernst: Lots. I cannot give you an exact num ber, but let me give you an example of a couple of projects. We are involved with Boeing, for instance, where it was a $7 million loan and I think the job num bers were up around the 250 mark.

Pall iser Furniture was around 12 5 for about $1. 5 million or $1. 6 million. We just got the final num ber, $10.1 million in committed loans. Mr. Leonard Evans: But you are not sure how many jobs that related to. You mentioned two, 250 and 12 5 for two companies. Mr. Ernst: Mr. Chairman , I did ind icate that. We do have the numb ers attached to every applic ation of course. Every appl ication that comes forward with those kinds of job requirements attached, if they do not meet the requirements of course they are penal ized under the loan. There is a direct relationship there. Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr.

Chairman, I am just trying to get an idea of the degree of activity under this program, how much was loaned , how many jobs were created in relation to that. Mr. Ernst: Mr. Chairman, I can respond I believe now that the numb er is 932 jobs. * (1 550) Mr. Leonard Evans: This year's estimate is a bit lower. Does the Min ister have any idea how much lending will go on this year? They must have some idea of what is going to be called for or the opportunities. There has to be some basis for this progn ostication. Mr. Ernst: Mr.

Chairman, in many cases it is difficult to determine exactly what is going to happen and you kind of make a ballpark gu ess based upon kind of the workload and contact base that you have at the present time or at the time that the bud get is formulated, which is now of course a long, long time ago. We have almost fin ished the year in terms of spend ing, let along budget preparation. We have had an enormous increase in the amount of ind ustrial investment in the Province of Manitoba that has not required Government involvement, for which qu ite frankly we should all be grateful. Mr.

Leonard Evans: For clarification, that money to Boeing, would that be related to the $3.4 million, not related to the $3.3 million? 4526

Monday, January 22, 1990 Mr. Erns t: As a matter of fact, it likely would not even relate to the $3.4 million because I think we are just in the process of flowing the money now, which would have a relatively small im pact. The plant expectation did not start until November so that the plant completion I think is scheduled for some time in the spring. Mr. Leonard Evans: What are the major compan ies relating to this year? You mentioned two for last year, Boeing and Pall iser Ind ustries. What about this year? We are almost fin ished this year. Mr. Erns t: Boeing was committed in this fiscal year.

It is being fun ded in this fiscal year, so that we have the plant started in October of 19 89 and will be completed some time this spring. Mr. Leonard Evans: That information, therefore, Mr. Chairman, relates more or less to the 3.3. I appr eciate the fact this is a compl icated area and there is indeed ca rry-over of interest from years gone by-who knows?-s o those examp les were more or less current examples, they were not example s of the previous fiscal - An Honour able Member: No, current examp les, current year examples. Mr. Leonard Evans: We will not ride that around.

Because of the timing, I guess I will not pursue this further, but I would like to ask a question under (b). Mr. Chairman: Shall (

a) pass -pass. (

b) Technolo gy Com mercial ization $600,600-the Member for Brandon East. Mr. Leonard Evans: Agai n, is that interest or is that grants equity or loans or whatever? Mr. Ernst: Grants. Mr. Leonard Evans: Could the Min ister explain where this money is being used? Could he give the committee some examples of the utilization of those funds? Mr. Erns t: You have an opportunity where you take a widget that has been invented in somebody's basement.

He thinks it is a good product and he wants to put it into commercial production, so we provide incu bator space, some assistance in terms of R and D to getting it through to a point where he can start producing it as a saleable item. That is where the money is spent by and large. That is a pretty simple explana tion of quite a techn ical appl ication. Mr. Leonard Evans: Again by way of approxima tion, how many firms or how many grants would be covered by the $466,000 or the $600,000, whichever figure you want to choose? Just about how many firms or how many grants are we talking about here? Mr.

Erns t: I would gu ess around 25 or so different compan ies with varying amounts for each one. Mr. Leonard Evans: As the Mem ber for Seven Oaks (Mr. Minenko) was saying, you could provide us with a list if you want, if that is more expeditious. Whether the Member wanted, I am not sure. At any rate, is the Min ister satisfied with this particular program? I gather he has put a lot more money into it, so there must be some more potential here. Mr.

Erns t: Yes, we think there is a good opportunity here for budding Manitoba inventors and entrepreneurs to sort of take what was, say, a basement invention, if you will, and bring it through to production purposes. It is difficult from year to year to predict too, because there are three phases of course in the Techno logy Commercialization Program, and some require only Phase 1, some require all three, and you are not sure. I mean, some produc ts take off really well quickly. Others take a long er time, so it is tough to tell sometimes where you are going in that.

Some of their budgeting will be based on what our anticipation is of those compan ies as they start the process. Mr. Leonard Eva ns: We could pass this one if- Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass-the Member for Seven Oaks. Mr. Min enko: I am just wondering if the Min ister could advise us whether- Mr. Chairman: Shall (

b) pass- Mr. Minenk o: -whether he can advise us with respect to all these programs. Have there been any problems or concerns with respect to the repayabil ity of any of the loans or as to where the grants have actuall y returned? Is there a way that the department has to ensure that the grant goes to that for which it is intended? Mr. Ernst: Most definitely. The Fina ncial Programs Division holds pre tty tight reins on these things, as do the program areas themselves, so that the people who are working directly in the program area, we would know. We keep very close contact. Mr. Chair man: Shall the item pass- pass. (

c) Manuf acturing Adap tation $550,600-the Member for Brandon East. Mr. Leonard Evans: Could the Min ister explain where the money is going in this respect as compared to (b)? Exactly what are you doing un der Ma nuf acturing Adaptation? Mr. Ernst: The Manuf acturing Adaptation Program deals with two areas. It deals with one area primarily, and that is upgrad ing of indu stries to new techno logy by and large. If somebody comes along and says, I have a new machine that will increase my productivity, we do two things.

The first thing is we cost-share 50- 50 a grant to conduct a feasibility study to see if in fact that is the case, that it will increase his productivity and will provide benefit. Assuming the study is positive, then we fu nd loan activity up to 50 percent as well for the acquisition and installation of that equip ment. Then 4527

Monday, January 22, 19 90 it is a repayable loan after that. That is basically what we do. Mr. Leonard Evans: Just on this one then, does the Min ister have pamph lets on this? Last week we were asking about literature and so on, so I hope the Min ister does not forget that. We like to get an ar ray of what the department has. It is useful constituency-wise. All ML As get inquir ies from time to time, especially from small businesspeople about assistance available from the department. Mr. Ernst: We are having a package of material prepared, and as a matter of fact it was such a good idea, Mr.

Chairman, that we decided to give it to everybody in the House. Mr. Leonard Evans: Sure, that is great. If this could pass, we could go on to (

d) Venture Capital. Mr. Chair man: Item 2. (c)(3)(c)-pass. Item 2.(c )(3)(

d) Venture Capital, $575,6 00-the Member for Brandon East. Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr. Chairman, I wond er, this prog ram is being wound down, I would gather, and it is being replaced by another program. Is that correct? Mr. Ernst: The Venture Capital Program is terminated. This cost is the ongoing runoff cost of everything that was on the books at that point. The Vision Capital Fund, together with the Immigrant Inv estor Funds, we think provide adeq uate sources of venture capital. * (1 600) Mr. Leonard Evans: Where are the monies for the Vision Fu nd? Mr. Ernst: In The Loan Act. Mr.

Leonard Evans: Did the Min ister say they were in the loan Act? There is no specific item in here that we can look at. What will the committee do next year, for example, to ask questions about the Vision Fund? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Chairman, because the loan Act this year provides the funding for the Vision Capital Fund, ne xt year in our budg et will be the bud getary requirement for us to fund the loan, the cost of funding the loan to the Vision Capital Fu nd. Unde r that line then in the budg et, you will have an opportunity to add ress questions with regard to the operation and so on. Mr.

Leonard Evans: I will not take the time. Perhaps there are pamph lets on the Vision Capital Fu nd, but I was just basically wondering how different is that from the Venture Capital. I presume it is the same general idea, the Vision Fund versus the Venture Fund with some different wrinkles, but the Min ister is nodding. (Mr. Ed Helwer, Acting Chairman, in the Chair) 4528 Mr. Ernst: Mr.

Acting Chairman, first of all, when you say that the Small Business Growth Fund, item 2.( c)(3)(f), the Vision Capital Fund is in fact a revamped and boosted Small Busine ss Growth Fu nd, you have taken that vehicle, enhanc ed dramatically in terms of fundin g from about $3 million to $30 million, and the Small Busi ness Growth Fund will be folded into that. In terms of the difference between the Venture Capital Fund and the Vision Capital Fu nd, this the Government is not directly involved, No. 1, as a partner.

No. 2, there is no cap on the-under the Venture Capital Fu nd, there was a 7 percent cap on what the Government could get back. The Government had all the downside and only 7 percent of the upside in the event of a successful business. Every time a business failed, the Government bit the whole bull et, and every time one was successful we limited our intake to 7 percent. Under the Vision Capital Fund, and und er the Small Busi ness Growth Fund for that matter, the fund has the entire upside as well as the entire downside.

The intent is that the money that is lent to the Vision Capital Fu nd will be paid back with the specific interest rate, and then the Government still has its equ ity interest in the fund upon which to draw for future benefits and the fact that the money will keep being reinvested in the fund so that once the Government is paid back the fund is still there and still able to provide venture capital. Mr. Leonard Evans: In the interests of time we will not go into any further detail, but maybe another year we want to ask a lot of additional questions on that. So that could pass.

Pass, un less the Member for- An Honourable Member: I prefer to ans wer the questions at that time. Mr. Leonard Evans: Yes, ok ay. So that can pass. The Acting Chairman (Mr . Helwer): Shall item (

d) pass-pass. 2. (c)(3)(

e) Canada -Manitoba Urban Bus Agreement, $960,000-the Member for Brandon East. Mr. Leonard Evans: What is the reason for the big increase here, Mr. Ac ting Chai rman? Mr. Ernst: The Province of Mani toba, under the urban bus- ERDA and Motor Coach Indus tries are in the process of trying to final ize an agreement to conduct some major R and D with regard to ur ban bus technol ogy. The money was put in the bud get in anticipation of that happen ing a lot sooner than it did. We have not yet quite fina lized the matter, but we are working on it. That is the reason. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Helwer): Shall the item pass-pass. 2.( c)(3)(

f) Small Busine ss Growth Fu nd, $1 44,000- pass; 2. (c)(3)(

g) Technology Transfer-that is included in that total. We should go back now to item 2. (c)

(3) Programs, $6, 13 0,800 -(interjection)-that would be (c)(3), yes pass.

Monday, Jan uary 22, 1990 Item 2(d)( 1) Salaries, $484,800-the Member for Brandon East. Mr. Leonard Evans: Under this item (d)-w hether it is (1) or (2), it does not matter-wha t is happ ening here? Can the Min ister give us an upd ate on the developments in the health industry area just briefly? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Acting Chairman , I could go on at some length but let me say in the interests of time to be brief, we are interested in a number of areas. We are conduc ting a num ber of case studies of a variety of activity related to health indu stry de vel opment, particularly produ ct development.

We are deal ing with the aging and rehabil itation centres we talked about the other day. We are involved with some corporations in terms of potential manu facturing of health care products. There are a number of things. I can go into some detail if you want. We are quite bul lish on the whole question of health industries.

We have had for instance a very good reaction the other day in the paper, if you read, from David Speer, the Secretary of Commerce for the State of Min nesota, in terms of the health care indu stry and the fact that some lin kages are taking pla ce between Min nesota companies and Manitoba companies. Of course the whole medical al ley thing that goes from Texas sort of stops at the moment in the Twin Cities, and we wou ld li ke to see that whole technolo gy development manu facturing area come right through to Winnip eg as sort of the north end of that. Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr.

Acting Chairman, this is an area that was identified a few years ago. The department began working on that four or five years ago, I believe, because it did seem to be quite promising. We had a cadre of medical personnel here, major hospitals, Faculty of Medicine and so on that it could provide the basis, the knowledge, for development of technology. What I am particularly anxious to see is that the Minister referred to these new health care produ cts or health care products that can be manufactured here.

It is one thing to set up various centres like the federal Government's centre on disease, research and so on. We do not knock that. We welcome those job s and so on but, in terms of being able to actually manufacture, it seems to me this is an area hopeful, from my perspective anyway, of potential. I would hope that the Min ister can report that there are some specific prod ucts no w that we are going to be able to manu facture in Man itoba. Mr. Ernst: I can ind icate, Mr.

Acting Chairman , that we have gone from, in the last year alone I think, about 50 to 65 compan ies manufacturing health care products in Manitoba and more coming along all the time. They may not necessarily manuf acture only health care products, but they are manufacturing products related to the health care system for at least part of their produ ction. It is a wide variety of things and it is amazing. You do not often think of exactly what constitutes a health care product, but again if you manu facture the front wheel for a wheelchair it is still part of the health care product area.

While he may manu facture all kinds of other wheels, casters and things for a variety of other equ ipment, onc e it becomes a front wheel of a wheelchair then it becomes in the health care product area. Mr. Leonard Evans: I have just one last question, here-well, two. One question specifically was, is there anything w

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-2-108a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 2nd hansardpdf 108a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	70e03f27ecde3823868c5864a98e824575a9e930

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