Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 29 (30th Legislature, 1st Session)

30-1-29

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable Peter Fox Vol. XXI No. 29 2:30p.m., Monday, February 25th, 1974. First Session, 30th Legislature. Printed by R. S. Evans-Queen's Printer for Province of Manitoba

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Monday, February 25, 1974 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS 737 MR. SPEAKER : Before we proceed, I should like to dir ect the attention of the honourable members to the gallery where we have 27 students of the Manitoba Rural Leadership Course. These students are under the direction of Leader, Mr. Land and Mr. Laxdal. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member - of my own constituency, I'm sorry. We also have 50 students of Grade 9 standing of the Louis Ri el School. These students are under the direction of Mrs.

Dandenault. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for St. Boniface. And we have 25 students of Grade 6 standing of the Cross Lake School. These students are under the direction of Miss Farden. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Thompson. On behalf of the honourable member s, I welcome you here today. I also have great pleasure in direc ting the attention of the honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery, where we have some di stinguished visitors who are in Winnipeg attending a me eting regarding the Garrison Dam.

Among those present is the Honourable Arthur A. Link, Governor of the State of North Dakota, and the Honourable Neil Byers, Minister of Environment for the Province of Saskatchewan. Applause) They are accompanied by their advisors and technical staff. There are also some guests from the Federal Government who are here attending the meeting as well. On behalf of all the honourable members, I welcome them here today. Presenting Petitions; Re ading and Re ceiving Petitions; Pres enting Reports by Standing and Special Committees; Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports. The Honourable Minister of Agriculture.

TAB LING OF REPORTS HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Minister of Agriculture)(La c du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the Return w an Order of the House No. 8. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. HON. RON McBRYDE (Minister of Northern Affairs)(T he Pas): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to table the Winter Road Report for February 25th. MR . SPEAKER: Any other ministerial statements or reports? Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills. Bill 25. The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS MR . USKIW: Mr Speaker, may I have the matter stand please? (Agre ed) MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism and Re creation. Bill No. 27. HON. RE NE E. TOUPIN (Minister of Tourism, Rec reation and Cultural Affairs) (Springfield) introduced Bill No. 27, the Lotteries Act. (Second Rea ding Wednesday next) REV. OONALD MALINOWSKI (P oint Douglas) introduced Bill No. 24 , the Mount Carmel Clinic Act. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: Questions. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SIDNEY SPIV AK, Q. C. (Leader of the Official Opposition)(River Heights): Mr. Speaker, my first question is to the First Minister.

In view of the presence of our guests from North Dakota, the Governor of North Dakota. I wonder if he's in any position to tell this House and tell the people of Manitoba of the deliberations concerning the Garrison Dam and the solutions to what some term potential concerns that Manitobans can havewith respect <o environ ment and ecology as a re sult of the dam. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. EDWARD SCHREYER (Premie r) (Ros smere): Mr. Speaker, the matter is one that lends itself only with difficulty to any brief summarizing.

I certainly believe it would be fair to say that the meeting that took place this morning at the request of the . • . office of the Governor of the State of North Dakota has been mo st useful and that in accordance with the

738 February 25, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. SCHREYER cont'd) •••• discussion and the consensus that was developed at the meeting there will be a communique very clearly worded and which will indicate the course of action that we will attempt to follow in the months and years ahead.

Perhaps the edge of urgency can be taken off this matter if one were to explain, for example, that the northern part of this project relating to the Sour is River is something that is not intended to be proceeded with for perhaps something in the order of six or seven years; nevertheless there is usefulness in trying to understand the potential impact of the project and that 's precisely what will be followed up on pursuant to the issuing of this communique later today. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR . I. H. ASP ER (Leader of the Liberal Party)(Wolseley): Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is to the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Housing and Re newal Corporation. Has he any information to give the House relative to the inquiries he said he would make into the question of whether members of the staff of his department were speculating and profiteering in land relative to the duties that they had in the department? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. SAUL A. MILLER (Minister of Health and Social Development) (Seven Oaks): Mr. Speaker, the staff in question are staff of the Manitoba Housing and Re newal Corporation.

I am advised that the board of the Housing Re newal Corporation is asking, or has asked, I'm not sure which, the Attorney-General's Department to undertake an investigation into the matter. MR. ASPER: Could the Attorney-General or the same Minister indicate to the House the nature of the enquiry that will be conducted and indicate whether the enquiry will deal with land dealings over and above those which were referred to in the House last week involving the City of Winnipeg Park. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. HOWARD PAWLEY (Attorney-General) (Selkirk): Mr.

Speaker, the main inquiry will involve an investigation of the facts as alleged by the Leader of the Opposition to ascertain whether or not there is accuracy to those allegations, and if so then a report will be made to the Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation. And insofar as other facts, certainly there will be investigation of any other facts brought to light or brought to the attention of the department suggesting any conflicts. MR . ASPER: Can the Attorney-General - Mr.

Speaker, can he indicate whether in pursuance of that investigation he intends to require those members of the staff of the Housing Corporation who have sensitive and classified information to make a aisclosure of their hold ings and past dealings in real estate so that they can be investigated as part of this same in vestigation? MR.

PAWLEY: Mr, Speaker, any investigation wouldproperlyrelate to the specific allegations that have been made in respect to a particular company and the involvement of certain employees of the corporation in that company in regard to possible conflict, plus any other information we may receive. Insofar as other conflicts by other employees, either in the Housing Corporation or elsewhere, I think it would be more appropriate to wait until we've dealt with more general legislation pertaining to possible conflicts of interest by public servants and politicians.

Now, if I could just while I am on my feet reply to a question that was raised last week by the Honourable Member for Bi rtle-Russell. He asked a question in respect to , I believe the issuance of summonses by the RCMP involving drivers who were using winter roads in northern Manitoba without driving permits, and I believe some other questions were raised in respect to the same matter, The information which I have received and reported to me is that there has been no prosecutions or summonses issued whatsoever to anyone using northern winter roads by the RCMP for failure to have a permit. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: A supplementary to the question the Attorney-General just answered, the first part of it. Does the Attorney-General intend to , in the pursuance of his enquiry, contact the City of Winnipeg to ascertain whether officials of the Housing and Renewal Corporation obtained confidential information from them on which profit was made ? MR.. PAWLEY: Mr . Speaker, that relates to part of the specific allegation that was raised last week by the Leader of the Opposition and it is certainly understood that the staff of the

February 25, 1974 739 ORAL QUESTIO NS (MR. PAWLEY Co nt'd) ... Department of the Attorney-General will investigate fully and thoroughly all aspects of the charge that was raised by the Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MATTER OF URGENCY MR. SHERMAN: Mr, Speaker , I wish to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Morris that the House do now adjourn to consider a definite matter of urgent public importance; namely, that as a result of a strike vote approved by the City of Winnipeg policemen, the City of Winnipeg may be faced with a strike of its policemen.

MR, SPEA KER: In accordanc e with our procedures, which allow for five minutes debate on the urgency of this matter, the gentlemen so doing would they also direct their attention to Beauchesne' s citation 100 in respect to this matter being under- whether it is under the ad ministrative gambit of this Assembly and also whether opportunity for debate doesn't exist elsewhere. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker , we believe that the address of this House to this problem is legitimate in terms of the procedures of the Assembly itself, Sir, because the polic e employ men t situation comes under the aegis of the Ma nitoba Labour Relations Act and therefore enters into the area of responsibility fulfilled by the Minister of Labour of this province and by the government. As to the neces sity for debatin g the issue at this time, I would hope to be able to impress the Assembly, Sir, with the validity of that argument during the next three or four minu tes available to me.

In the first place, Sir , I begin by saying that there must be no strike in such a vital service as police service in the City of Winnipeg. MR.

SPE AKER : Order please, The honourable gentleman is debating the subject and not the urgency of the matter, MR, SHERMAN: Mr, Speaker , I will do my best , Sir , to stay inside that admonition but I had to make that poin t because from there I want to go on to say that it' s because of the vital service at stake that this debate is urgent at this time , because it can not be handl ed, the pro blem itself cannot be handled in any other form In time to avert what could be a potenti ally critical situation for the capital city of this province.

Sir, I think it 's essential that this House, this Legislature put its position on the line and make its position clear publicly with respect to the pos sibility of a police strike in Winnipeg. That's why I introduced the motion for emer gency debate at this time and that' s why I argue, Sir, and plead that it has an aspect and an essence of urgency that cannot be disputed, The Ma nitoba Labour Relations Act which is n �w a statute of this provinc e, puts resporr sibility for the type of situation with which we are potenti ally faced, clearly in the hands of the Goveri:nnen t and the Legislature.

It used to be, Sir, that police did not have the right to strike but because of Statute s amended by and undertaken by this Legislature, police in the Ci ty of Winnipeg now do, have the right to strike. Therefore it' s our responsibil ity to in sure that wherr ever contract demands are being discussed or negotiated , that this is done in good faith and good conscience on both sides of the bargainin g table so that there can be no poten tial danger such as is posed in the present situation.

Because we passed legislation making it pos sible for poli ce to strike , Sir, we have the responsibility here to cope with the situation that exists today and there is no po ssible form in which this crisis can be discussed or debated other than the Assembly this afternoon. There is no time in the present circum stan ces to postpone action and wait for opportun ities that might pos sibly be available in some other areas because, Sir , the po ssibility and the threat is very real, exists at the presen t time and cries out for resolution at the present time.

Mr, Speaker , we on this side and in this party have always differentiated between essen tial services and vital services and certainly if we were on ly discussing an essential service here we would defer to the sugge stion that perhaps another area and arena would be more appropriate for debate. But, this Sir, is a vital service now as I have said, under the aegis of this Legisla ture, through provincial legislation, and the two sides in the dispute have apparently reached an irreconci lable point of difference.

Therefore it behooves this Minister and his department and his colleagues on the' treasury ben ches, and it behooves us in the oppo sition, Sir, to tackle the situation to see what can be done to resolve that issue so that no such strike takes place. The thought of such a strike is not even thinka ble, it' s not even worthy of contemplation, Sir,

740 February 25, 1974 MATTER OF URGENC Y (MR. SHERMAN cont'd) . because of the chaos and confusion that could result. There- fore I commit the motion to the study of the House and plead with colleagues in the House, Sir, to address themselves to it from the standpoint of the critical urgency of its nature. This strike must be avoided at all costs and we have a responsibility to put our position clearly on the public record in that respect, Sir. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR . GOROON JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): Mr.

Speaker, when the Labour Relations Act was changed a couple of years ago to give everyone in the province the right to strike, I believe the Minister at the time said that if it ever came down to a strike of a major police force that the Legislature would be called and the Act altered so that something could be done. --(Interjection)-- Oh I think this was said in the debate. Now they weren't words in that exact term but I understand that a commitment was given that the Legislature would be called to deal with the matter, because it's the only way it could be done.

Now, I would suggest that this debate be allowed to go on so that the government can in form the people of Winnipeg and the members of this House as to what they will do if there is a strike. We all know that the very fact that this is being discussed publicly in the Legislature has given an extra form of weight to the negotiators on the side of the police. It cannot help but be that way, that they have a little bit extra edge in their bargaining power because they know that the Legislature has to act if they do go on strike.

So I would like to see this debate go on and our group are for it, mainly so that the government can tell us through their spokesman what they intend to do if the police strike. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Mini·ster of Labour)(Transcona): Mr. Speaker, I am pre pared at any time to debate the provisions of the Labour Relations Act as adopted by this Assembly a year or so ago. However, the matter before us this afternoon, Mr. Speaker, is not the contents of the Labour Relations Act, but it deals with the urgency of debate into a possible situation that may happen.

I want to tell the House that I have, and the Department of Labour have been deeply con cerned, even more concerned I would suggest, Sir, than those who sponsor this motion this afternoon, concerned because I believe that we have in the Province of Manitoba and in the City of Winnipeg responsible people who are trying to resolve a difference. The time is not to panic now and this to me are the suggestions of members opposite, the urgency of debate. I want to say to you, Mr.

Speaker, and to this Assembly, that being what I consider to be a responsible Minister of the Crown, in the Department of Labour, that it is my responsibility to prevent strikes of all natures, be they police or even some of the strikes that may happen with the Leader of the Opposition and some of his undertakings. The matter that has to be decided here now, Mr. Speaker, is the urgency of the debate. I want to say, Mr.

Speaker, that the introduction of this motion may prejudice harmonious negotiations that are going on now at the present time between the City of Winnipeg and its officials and officials of the Winnipeg Police Association. We are nearly, as I understand it, at agreement and here by this motion a panic button is being pulled to try and undermine the very negotiations and conciliation procedures that are going on at the present time. And I think, I think, Mr.

Speaker, that in view of the fact that there was a Conciliation Officer appointed, as a matter of fact, the Director of Industrial Relations was appointed by the Department to meet with the parties concerned, that at that time of his appointment it seemed as though there was no end except the end to strike, which isn't here yet, that by the very appointment of a Conciliation Officer of the Department of Labour, I'm convinced, or I was convinced until this motion, that the matter would be resolved satisfactorily, And if the panic button now is put on by the Honourable the Member for Fort Garry and it upsets proper conciliation proceedings, I say, Mr.

Speaker, that it is a disservice to the responsible people on both sides of the dispute at the present time, and I respectfully suggest, Mr. Speaker, there is no urgency; consultations are going on at the present time. And in addition to that I'm prepared to take on the Member for Fort Rouge or Portage la Prairie at any time as to the legislation that we have in Manitoba at the present time. Mr. Speaker, there is no urgency and I suggest that you reject the motion. MR .

SPEAKER: I thank the honourable members for expressing their particular opinion in respect to urgency but I do believe there is opportunity for debate in other forms and pro cedures of our Legislative Assembly. I therefore deny the urgency of debate now at this time.

February 25, 1974 741 ORAL QUESTIO NS C ont 'd MR . SPEAKER: Oral Questions. The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. MORRIS McGREGOR (Virden): Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Agriculture, it might well indeed affect the Minister of Highways. Has the Mirlster, or is the Minister going to reply to the Minister of Justice and the Canadian Wheat Board who falsely accused Manitoba farmers of recent date of no:rr deliT_-ery of r;rain? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Agriculture. MR . USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, I have not had a communication from the Minister of Justice in this connection so therefore reply is not necessary. I think I could make the observation and that is, that some points in Manitoba, some delivery point s are not able to handle any more grain than has been delivered to date and presumably there are points that are not getting sufficient quantities. So I presume, Mr. Speak er, that one has to accept that as a state of affairs that the Minister in charge is attending to in co-operation with the Canadian Wheat Board.

I'm optimistic that within a short period of time, that where there are logjams occurring that those logjams will be removed. I suspect, Mr. Chairman, that a lot has to do with the allocation of boxcars in the railway system, but my impression is-that we are not on the verge of getting some movement at this point in time. But I have not had a communique from the Minister in question so therefore there's no need for a reply. MR. McGREGOR: A supplementary to the First Minister or the same Minister. Then who in the provincial ministership is responsible for boxcar allocations, who ... MR . USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, obviously the Government of Canada and the Canadian Wheat Board together have a responsibility here for the allocation of boxcars. It is not a matter of provincial jurisdiction. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. ARNOLD BHOWN (Rhineland): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to direct my question to the Minister of Health and Social Development. Has there been any discussion between Manitoba and Ottawa with Mr. Lalonde during his visit or at any other time dealing with proposals to curb the entry into Canada of foreign doctors? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR.

MILLER: Mr. Speaker, there was no direct discussions between Mr. Lalonde nor myself. MR. BROWN: I would like to direct the next quest ion to the same Minister. What is the government's position on the question of need of foreign doctors in Manitoba? MR . MILLER: Mr. Speaker, I believe I answered that question last week but I'll reiterate it. The Government of Manitoba feels that if it requires doctors for certain parts of Manitoba and if those doctors are not available from Canadian sources then it will seek out doctors who qualify and who will be able to practice in many parts of Manitoba if they're available.

So that as far as the idea that suddenly we will not accept qualified doctors from out of, off shore that is that is not the case. We still have many unmet needs iiLManitoba; areas where there are no adequate medical staff and certainly we are going to continue to seek them out as we have in the past. MR. BROWN: Another question to the same Minister, Mr. Speaker, Is the gover:rr ment going to give special recognition besides the term "clinical clerk" to foreign doctors dready in Manitoba? MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, the government does not license doctors.

The College of Physicians and Surgeons are the licensing body. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. WARNER JORGENSON (Morris): Mr. Spe aker, I'd like to direct my question to the Minister of Agriculture who reports to the House for the Department of Corporate Development, and ask him if the government still have the three pigeons that survived the communications experiment at Ilforcl Fishing Camp? MR. SPEA:i<:ER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture, MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, the governmen t is not involved in the administration of the affairs of the co-operatives, other than in an advisory capacity. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, is it not a fact that the Manager sent clown to that Ilford Fishing Co-op was sent from his department and he was the one that initiated . ..

742 ORAL QUESTIONS MR . SPEAKER: Question please. MR. JORGENS ON: ••• this modern communications experiment. February �. 1974 MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I have no way of knowing the hobbies of the Department, of Co-operative and the staff therein. MR. JORGENSON: I wonder if the Minister would undertake to find out if those three surviving pigeons are still on the government payroll or whether they're on the payroll of the Department of Co-operative Development. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, I just wanted to advise the Honourable Member for Morris that the durability of those three pigeons that he is so concerned about is at least as good if not greater than the Little Red Hen. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIV AK: I wonder if the First Minister if he's in an informative mood would indicate whether the other pigeons were eaten or not? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin): Mr. Speaker, I have a question . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. MR. McKENZIE: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable the Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs. I wonder can I ask the Minister, have letters of intent been exchanged or contracts signed between some of the western provinces or all regard ing Westcan Lotteries? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Speaker, there's been many meetings held between officials of the three western provinces, the four western provinces really in regards to the possibility of setting up a Western Canadian Lottery. There's no such agreement signed to date.

There is a bill before the House permissive legislation for the setting up of same. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address a question to the First Minister. Can he indicate whether there will be a meeting shortly of the western Premiers and what the principal topics of discussion might be? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR . SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, yes, the meeting is scheduled for Saskatoon for Wednesday of this week and major items for discussion relate to western economic opportunities and follow-up comparison of notes regarding follow-up of action by the Government of Canada pursuant to the conference held in Calgary last July. That's the main subject matter. I'm quite sure that there will be some discussion relative to energy policy and health care costs. those principally. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, a subsequent question.

Is it possible that consideration may be given to dealing with the energy questions facing Manitoba and the other provinces in relation to a trade-off for Crow' s Nest Pass rates on freight? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, the substance of what my honourable friend is referring to is of historical importance, I wouldn't presume to give an answer just off-the-cuff on something as major as that. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Northern Affairs.

I wonder whether the Minister can indicate whether he has any personal relationship with a private concern known as The Pas Metis Development Corporation? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman, I am familiar with the organization in question, I have no personal concern. MR. SPIV AK: I wonder if he can indicate whether the Department has any particular relationship with the company? MR. McBRYDE: To the best of my recollection, Mr. Chairman, the Northern Manpower Corps was involved in the extent of on the job training with some contract that this company had. MR .

SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition.

February 25, 1974 743 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPIV AK: Yes, Mr. Speaker, my question then is to the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation. I wonder if he can indicate the relationship between The Pas Metis De velopment Corporation and the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation? MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, I'll have to take that question as notice. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASP ER: My question is to the Minister responsible for the Auto Insurance Corpora tion.

It relates to the charge of $3. 00 that Autopac is making for people who want to defer premium payment. The question i's, will the Minister give the House the reason why Autopac is in effect levying an interest charge ranging from 24 percent to 77 percent per mmum for the deferral of premiums? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. HON. BILLIE URUSKI (Minister responsible for Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation) (St. George): Mr. Speaker, that's a service charge, not an interest charge. MR. ASP ER: Well, ivrr.

Speaker, to the same Minister, and I put this to him in the spirit of his own government's legislation on Consumer Protection. Does he intend to indicate to the people, the purchasers, the forced purchasers of Autopac, that the amount of money being charged is, an interest, an effective interest rate as our law requires of anywhere between 24 and 77 percent? MR . URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I gather that the honourable member is suggesting that Autopac cut out the time payment plan completely to the people who wish to purchase their insurance. If he is suggesting that, we can consider that. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

Order please. The Honourable Member state his point of order. MR. ASP ER: Mr. Speaker, the point of order is that the Minister has an option to answer or not an swer a question. But, Mr. Speaker. • • MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. ASPER : .• . the Minister is unable to misstate a fact in an alleged answer. MR . SPEAKER: Order please. That is not a point of order. The Honourable Member for Birtle-RusselL The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR .

ASP ER: In view of the fact that commercial comsumer rates at the banks do not exceed 14 percent per annum on this kind of financing, can the Minister explain why the Govern ment of Manitoba finds it necessary to charge what amounts to a 24 percent to 77 percent rate? MR. UR USKI: Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure what the bank rates are but I certainly would not advocate that the people who pay cash for Autopac would be subsidizing the people who will want to defer their payments for the future. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell, MR. HARRY E. GRAHAM (Birtle-Russell): Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Northern Affairs. I wonder if the Minister can indicate to the House when Mr. Don Mcivor will be appointed Area Manager of the Northern Manpower Corps to replace Mr. Cecil Smith, who has already been relieved of his office? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. MR. Mc BRYDE: Mr. Cha irman, if such an appointment is to come ab�ut it wilt' come about in due course. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOUGLAS WATT (Arthur): Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the First Minister.

In reply to the question from my leader, he indicated that •.. MR. SPEAKER: Question please. MR . WATT: We are always in trouble, Mr. Speaker, aren't we? I ask the First Minister, if he has a firm commitment as to the conference this morning, that the diversion or the development of the Garrison Dam in the United States will not affect the Province of Manitoba which would affect not only the Souris River but the Assiniboine River, the Red River and Lake Winnipeg.

Is there a firm commitment from that convention this nwrning, which we were not allowed to att end, can you tell us if there is a firm commitment . . • MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR; WATT: .•. that there will be no effect on the Province of Manitoba for at least six or seven years?

744 February 25, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS :MR . SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. The honourable gentleman is debating the question. The Honourable First Minister. :MR . SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, the government of Canada received a diplomatic note from the U. S.

State Department to the effect that there would be no effect of pollution upon waters flowing into Canadian jurisdiction that is to say, the Red River, Souris River, Lake Winnipeg, The meeting that was held this morning was useful in terms of an exchange of views, also useful in terms of outlining a subsequent course of action whereby meetings will be held at certain intervals so that technical officials can report to policy makers at all levels of govern ment, There will be an opportunity I am sure for persons representative of municipal or regional water commission interests to also be apprised from time to time into the future of the probable environmental impact of the said diversion.

While we have that note from the United states State Department to the Canadian External Affairs Department, assuring that there will be no pollution effect, one I think as a layman could assume that there may be some effects which could be significant, which on the other hand could be of very small, very, very small degree, and this is something which is in the process of refinement by those of a scientific and professional capacity working at all levels of government. This will be something that they will investigate with ever-increasing precision and refinement in the months and years ahead. :MR .

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur have a supplementary? MR. WATT: A supplementary question. Then there has been no firm commitment as the Honourable the First Minister mentioned, that it would be six or seven years before any possible effects might . . . MR . SPEAKER: Question please? MR . WATT: ... into Canadian or Manitoba waters. MR . SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I've already indicated that there is a firm commitment contained in the V. S.

State Department note but I think prudence would dictate that upon reflect ing upon the entire project that there may be some degree of impact which precise, refined estimate of degree of impact is only possible after further investigation of a scientific nature, and that will be proceeded with in the months and years ahead. The project as such on the Souris loop will not take place for a few years yet. MR . WATT: A supplementary question- I ask the First Minister if he's ever been down that area andtaken a look over what the project will do, what . . . :MR . SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, there is no way that a visual surveillance of the area at this point in time will give anyone any indication as to what the project will do, as he puts it, because this is all subject to very precise topographical mapping and a visual inspection will not be particularly helpful. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for &urgeon Creek. MR. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister in charge of Autopac.

Can the Minister inform the House when people do make a time payment for their Autopace premiums will there be a notice sent to those people inform ing them that their second payment is due, or is the onus upon the people? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. URUSKI: A notice is sent, Mr. Speaker. :MR . FRANK JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I have another question for the same Minister. Can the Minister inform the House why, if a person fails to make that second payment that his driver's license is suspended? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. FRANK JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary.

Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister could explain what paying your automobile insurance has to do with your ability to drive an automobile ? :MR . URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, in case the member doesn't remember, the Automobile Insurance Act states that in order to drive a motor vehicle in the Province of Manitoba it must be accompanied with insurance, and if his insurance is not paid, he is unable to drive. :MR . FRANK JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I have another question for the Minister.

Could the Minister explain to the House that that person who did not pay his insurance, would his license then not be valid to drive my car, if I chose to let him drive it? :MR . SPEAKER: Order please. Order please, The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. Order.

February 25, 197 4 745 ORAL QUESTION S MR. LLOYD AXWORTHY (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Attorney General in his capacity as Minister of Municipal Affairs. Could the Attorney-General inform the House as to the method whereby municipalities are made aware of existing legislation and changes to that legislation, the effect on such as the Public Building Act? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, all legislation that pertains to municipalities, amendments in the Assessment Act, Municipal Act, etc. are forwarded to the municipalities at the conchr sion of the session, so that they each receive notice in that way by mail as to the actual amend ments that have been passed. MR. AXWORTHY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, Could the Minister confirm to this House that all municipalities presently have a copy of the Public Building Act and are fully aware of their obligations under that Act? MR . PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I would be unable to confirm "that all" because that's a very embracing term, but I, from personal observation, practically all municipalities that I'm aware of have a copy of the Revised Statutes of Manitoba in their library, and therefore must have knowledge of it. MR . AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker, in light of the report that the municipal office at Powerview did not have a copy of the Public Building Act, is the minister planning to review which municipalities in fact are aware of their obligations and how in fact the legislation is introduced to them and they are made aware of it? MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I don't want to be too harsh on any municipality but I'm really surprised that there is a report that a municipality does not have within its control, within its office, copies of all Statutes and legislation pertaining to that municipality and its affairs; and this is the first instance I've heard of a municipality that does not P..ave a complete set of Statutes in their library. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, my question is for the First Minister.

Will the First Minister indicate to the House how many cabinet ministers, executive assistam:s, contract employees or other government personnel will be travelling to Nova Scotia at public expense during the next six weeks? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR . SCHREYER: Well Mr. Speaker, I don't kno.v the reason for the question, I don't suppose that' s really important that I know why it's being asked, but whatever the reason for asking it, I would •mly say this.

That when delegations of the Province of Manitoba attend at Dominion-Provincial or Intraprovincial meetings, we try as the general rule to keep the size of delegation down to one which is among the lowest in number of all the provinces in Canada. We don't always succeed but we certainly avoid having an overly large delegation. MR. GRAHAM: A supplementary. When these people do go, will he advise the House of their destination and the nature of their business? MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, if there is some reason to go to Nova Scotia, which is still not clear to me, I would try to arrange, Mr.

Speaker, if my honourable friend the Member for Birtle-Russell would accompany me, to arrange for non-stop Winnipeg to Halifax, and perhaps only one of us need return. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. J. PAUL MARION(St. Boniface): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, I direct my question to the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture. Can the Minister tell us if any of the Marketing Boards which operate under Provincial jurisdiction, limit production to obtain higher prices for their product? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR . USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, the first point is probably true, there are limitations on production placed on producers, but it is decided on the basis of the amount of market available in relation to how they share that market with other jurindictions in North America and indeed in particular, with respect to those plans that are National in scope. MR. MARION: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary notwithstanding the answer. Does the Minister intend to take any steps to prevent this practice where in effect the restrictive policy has a direct bearing on the price ultimately charged to the consumer ? MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, I think what I should reco l1ll1lend the honourable member do,

746 February 25, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. USKIW cont'd) •.• • is to research the Act under which they operate which was put on the books by his predecessors, and the Liberals at that, Mr. Speaker, during their term of office with the objective of bringing stability to agriculture by way of allowing producer boards to so restrict production in order to improve the price. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry, MR. SHERMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister responsible for Autopac and follows the questions asked by the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek.

Did the Minister ever catch up with the thousands of persons whose cheques bounced last year on their Autopac payments? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister, MR. URUSKI: Not personally, Mr, Speaker, but I'd like to elaborate on the answer that I gave the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek in respect to driving of a motor vehicle and not paying the insurance fee. The individual who is owing on his insurance portion on his vehicle may turn in his plates and then he would be eligible to drive anyone else's car. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, in the case of those whose cheques bounced, were their licenses taken away from them? MR. URUSKI: Yes, Mr. Speaker, MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health and Social Develop ment. I wonder if he is in a position to give the H!!luse a preliminary report in connection with the investigation now taking place at Concordia Hospital? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. MILLER: No, Mr.

Speaker, As I indicated to the House earlier, on Friday last, the board of the hospital was supposed to hold a meeting and to appoint a firm as consultants, the terms of reference were to be drawn up in conjunction with the Health Services Commission, and I believe that has been done. I don't know what their target date is or how soon they plan on having a report. but it's not being done through the ministry or through the department itself. MR. SPIV AK: Well, I wonder if the Minister can inform the House why the news media have to have more information than he does as Minister of Health on this matter? MR.

MILLER: Mr. Speaker, it appears the news media speaks to the Chairman of the Hospital Board and also to the Commission and therefore they are following up the story. I have not been speaking to the Chairman of the Hospital Board, it's an autonomous body, it's a self-governing board and they are dealing with the commission, they are not dealing with the department nor with myself. MR. SPIV AK: Well, I want to understand the position with respect to the Minister.

Is the Minister taking the position that there is no responsibility on him as Minister to enquire or to determine what the nature of the investigation is and where it stands at this point? MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, the department, the ministry will accept responsibility after they have something to examine and to look at.

So far there have been a lot of allegations in a very very sensitive area; they are being looked into by the agencies responsible: the College of Physicians and Surgeons, the governing board of the Concordia Hospital, the Manitoba Health Services Commission, they are the three bodies who are now looking at it, When they have looked at the matter, have examined it and studied it, the consulting firm has made a study and recommendations, then I will be apprised of it, but I do not have direct entry to any of these three, nor can I, or should I, really impinge myself into these deliberations at this time. MR.

SPIV AK: Mr. Speaker, I put the question to the Minister of Health and Social Development. Does he understand the basis of the investigation that's being undertaken substantive basis? MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. MR. SPIV AK: Mr. Speaker, for the benefit of the Minister of Finance, my criticism • . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. --(Interjections)-- The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIV AK: All right. I put the question to the Minister again. Does he or does he not understand the substantive basis for the investigation being undertaken?

Has he enquired, rms he obtained knowledge to understand the basis on which this investigation is being under taken?

February 25, 1974 747 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health, MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, if the member will read Hansard of Friday or Thursday, I think he'll find the answer to that statement, MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia, The Honourable Leader of the Opposition, MR. SPIV AK: When will the Minister determine the basis of the investigation to be undertaken? MR.

MILLER: Mro Speaker, the terms of reference that I've indicated for the fourth time are being prepared or have been prepared by the commission; I have not yet seen those terms of reference that are being worked out in conjunction with the Board of the Concordia Hospital, When I get those terms or reference when I can perhaps, if it's agreeable to the board of the hospital and to the commission, I may even be able to table them in the House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Labour responsible for transportation.

Can the Minister confirm to the House that the high cost of food in northern Manitoba is caused by transportation costs? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister, MR . PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I have no jurisdiction for transportation, I thought my honourable friend was aware of that. MR. PATRICK: To the Minister responsible for transportation. Mr. Speaker, it's, I believe the Minister of Industry and Commerce , , . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister ){Industry and Commerce. HON, LEONARD S. EVANS (Minister of Industry and Commercc*Brandon Ea st): Mr.

Speaker, it's obvious that transportation costs are a major element in the differential in food prices between northern Manitoba prices and Winnipeg, but as I said in my statement last Friday, this is not the only reasons. There are various other reasons, including the degree of competition that existed, the volume of business in a particular enterprise in a particular town. At any rate, Mr.

Speaker, we now have the basis of an analysis that we can make, we have some preliminary date on food pric::es, As I indicated last Friday, we will be getting other information in due course and we will be able to analyze, I hope, the degree to which transport costs are involved in these food price differentials, MR. PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. Has the Minister any communication with representatives from Alberta and Saskatchewan in respect to establishing a western transportation advisory board? MR.

EVANS: Well, Mr, Speaker, we have established a western provinces' ministerial transportation committee many months ago, in fact long before the WEOC conference in Calgary, and I can assure all members of the House that we have had many meetings, we've had very productive meetings and not only do the Ministers meet but the staffs of the various departments meet on a very consistent basis; and in fact, Mr. Speaker, I'll go beyond that, that we also have a liaison committee set up with the Federal Minister, the Honourable Jean Marchand, where we meet periodically.

In addition to that, Manitoba is a member of the Western Transportation Advisory Council in co-operation with the three other western pro vinces, So this, too, is another form, another vehicle for communication with our sister provinces, MR. PATRICK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Does this Advisory Board deal with northern transportation costs in the three provinces? MR. EVANS: Well, in so much, Mr.

Speaker, as we are concerned with selected areas, each province has its own problems, but collectively we are concerned; for example, all pro vinces have expressed a concern with developing Churchill as a port, with reducing the transportation rates along the Hudson's Bay rail line; as we've shown an interest in developing and assisting British Columbia in the development of the northern part of British Columbia. Together, we are concerned collectively about reducing freight rates in the north- south direction, as well as the east-west direction. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia.

Last supplementary. MR. PATRICK: Has the Minister of Industry and Commerce any program to assist the northern people to alleviate the high transportation cost? MR. EVANS: Well, Mr. Speaker, I would imagine that the honourable member is

748 February 25, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. EVANS cont'd) ••.• conversant with the extensive road building program that has been engaged in by this government for the past several years which has substantially assisted remote communities in northern Manitoba, and I'm sure that the Minister of Northern Affairs and the Minister of Highways both are very cognizant and can inform you of their existing programs and future programs.

But as far as rail transportation is concerned, I can advise the honourable member that we have had continuing negotiation and liaison with Canadian Na tional Railway to bring down rail rates in northern Manitoba; as a matter of fact an agreement was made late last year whereby the CNR announced a reduction of rates amounting to approximately $100,000 worth of revenue per annum as it affected northern points served by the Hudson's Bay railway, and we are continuing to discuss this matter with the CNR and hope that there will be further reductions in rail rates.

As far as air transport is concerned, we in the Department of Industry and Commerce, through the Transportation Branch, are continuing to keep on top of the situation, and through our contacts with the Air Transport Committee doing our level best to keep air fares to the north and air harbour rates to the north as low as possible. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BOB BANMAN (La Verendrye): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I direct my question to the Honourable the Minister of Industry and Commerce.

Have members of the Minister's department expressed concern to the pet food producers in southern Manitoba that people in Manitoba are eating pet food? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR . EVANS: Pm sorry, due to some noise hereby, I didn't hear the full question of the honourable member. MR. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I repeat my question. Have members of the Minister's department expressed concern to the pet food producers in southern Manitoba that people in Manitoba are eating pet food? MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister of Finance. The question is, in view of the government's announced policy of raising mining taxation in Manitoba, can the Minister indicate whether the plans for mining tax changes will be similar to those instituted or announced in British Columbia? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. SAUL CHERNIACK, Q. C, (Minister of Finance)(St. John's): Mr. Speaker, of all people, a former Minister of the Crown not to have more knowledge of rules and procedures than to ask a question of that type. MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the question that was asked last week where it was indicated that it was a matter of policy, since the policy has been announced in the Throne Speech, Mr. Speaker, I believe the question is legitimate. If the Minister wishes not to answer . MR. SPEAKER: Question please. Question please. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge, MR. AXWORTHY: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question to the Minister of Health and '3ocial Development and responsible for housing, Is the Minister yet in a position to comment on the question raised in this House ten days ago concerning the leasing of public housing units to private firms in Leaf Rapids? MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, I have asked for information from the Board of the MHRC; I have received some preliminary information but not all the answers are in it. I have asked for further clarifi cation, as soon as I have it I'll report to the House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia, MR. PATRICK: Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister responsible for MPIC. Can the Minister tell the House how much additional revenue he expects to raise through adjustments in rate premiums for Autopac? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR . URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, those questions can be put when the report is discussed at the committee. MR. P ATIUCK: Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary. Can the Minister assure the House it'll be sufficient to wipe out the deficit? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. DAVID BLAKE (Minnedosa): · ••• if the Minister responsible for the Manitoba

February 25, 1974 749 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR . BLAKE cont'd) • Public Insurance Corporation might indicate to the House when he will be appearing before the committee. MR. URUSKI: I don't know, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR': MARION: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is directed to the Minister of Health. Can the Minister advise if he has received an evaluation report on the success or the lack of same of the new ambulatory care facilities at the St. Boniface Hospital? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. MILLER: ll':J, Mr. Speaker, not yet. MR. MARION: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder then if I can put a second question this way. Are the number of patients pres ently being processed through the ambulatory care services at St. Boniface Hospital in accordance with the design of those services? MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, I can take that question as notice and ask the Manitoba Health Services Commission to re port if they have the information. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Da y. The Honourable Le ader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASP ER: My question is to the Minister responsible for Autopac stemming from his re sponse to the Honourable Member from Assiniboia. MR. SPEAKER: Question. MR.

ASP ER: Did he indicate to the member from his seat that the amount being raised this year with the Autopac premium increase would be inadequate or insufficient to cover the 10- million dollar deficit? MR. SP-EAKER: The Honourable Member. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, the member can discuss those matters in committee. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Radisson. MR. HARRY SHAFRANSK Y (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, may I have leave of the House to make a brief announcement? (Agreed). ANNOUNCEMENT MR.

SHAFRANSKY: On behalf of the general manager, the Member for Gladstone; the head coach, the Member for Assiniboia: the assistant coach, the Member for Roblin; I'd like to announce that the Golden Boys' Hockey Club practice will be tomorrow at 11-12, and Thursday from 11- 12:30, at the Winnipeg Arena. I ask all members on the roster to be there for 11 o'clock sharp. SOME MEMBERS: We'll be there. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. KEN DILLEN (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Northern Affairs. What is the present situation with respect to the winter roads out of Ilford?

MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Speaker, contrary to what one might believe by reading the Tr ibune or watching CKY, all the winter roads out of Ilford are now fully open to heavy truck traffic. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Le ader. GOVERNMENT BILLS HON. SIDNEY GREEN, Q. C. (Minister of Mines, Resources and Environmental Management; House Leader): Yes, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if you'd now call the second reading of bills in the order in which they appear on the Order Paper, and following that we intend to move into the Committee of Supply, where the Estimates of the Minister of Public Works will ••• MR. SPEAKER: Thank you.

Bill No. 7. The Honourable Member for Souri s-Ki llarney. BILL NO. 7 MR. EARL McKELIA R (Souris- Killarney): Mr. Speaker, I want to say a few words on Bill No. 7 and amendments thereto, and I must say that this has been an excellent debate, the Minister introducing it, and I think the members in the opposition have brought out their points very well, expressing their concern about the amendments that are in this bill. We all know the amendments came forward in the last session. Bill No. 55, and it died on the Order Paper before the election was called; the Minister saw fit to bring these amendments

750 ' February 25, 1974 BILL NO. 7 (MR. McKELL A R cont'd) •... back into the House trying to sell the position of having civil servants campaigning at etection time, and also collecting for political parties. Mr. Speaker, this is the point of view that I think has been expressed fairly well by the Member for Lakeside, the Member for Swan River, the Member for Fort Garry and others on the Opposition side. In the opinion of the Conservative Party, we don't think this is right. The government say that this is the right and proper thing for the Civil Service in the Province of Manitoba.

At election time these civil servants can go out and write campaign speeches, can go door to door on behalf of a particular candidate, can take leave of absence to go out and collect for political parties and do all the other things that pertain to elections. Mr. Speaker, I happened to marry a civil servant and I asked her over the weekend -- I asked her what she thought of this particular position of the Minister of Labour and she didn't think this was right. She didn't think it was right.

She couldn't understand why her favourite friend at that time, the present Minister of Labour, would want to do such a certain thing. But I told her that the Minister of Labour has changed; he's changed since he sat on this side of the House; he's changed, has a different attitude, got a different point of view. Before he was always fighting the empire, as he said, the free enterprise people were running the province. I say it's different now , it's different now, free enterprise people are paying the taxes. That's the only thing they got to say very much about of what goes on.

The Minister of Labour he runs the Province of Manitoba. What does this bill contain, what does it mean ? What does it mean ? It means quite a lot - 12 , 000 civil servants, 12 ,0 00 civil servants have got to change their attitude, change their positions from what they have been in the past. Mr. Speaker, governments have changed over the past and there's been no problem, Why? Because the Civil Service have been dedicated to the cause of administering the govern ment no matter what political party has been in power; and I think this is the argument and the way it should be.

But it won't be that way, it won't be that way after this bill is passed. And it won't be that for very many reasons. Mr. Speaker, as a member of the Opposition in the constituency of Souris-Killarney, if the ag rep takes time off to go out around and collect money, takes leave of absence, and other people who are civil servants working for the Department of Health and other people, and the government changes, and the government changes, and I was re-elected.

Can you imagine the position I would take; I wouldn't want those people around working, I wouldn't want them, and they wouldn't want to be working for me if I was the government of the day. It's a terrible thing to do, Mr. Minister of Labour , to bring amendments like this. I'm surprised that you would do this, the first session after the election. There must be more elections coming up, Mr. Speaker, There must be something in his mind. There must be a tactic that he's about to think up in the next year or so.

I can't imagine a general election in the next four years but there's something, something in his mind I'm sure before he would bring these amendments in. And what do they say. In here, soliciting of funds, this is the one that I don't like at all, And there's no way the Conservative Party are going to vote for this bill, there's no way they're going to vote for it. In fact we realize it's strictly a numbers game in here, that you're going to out vote the opposition. But we're going to amend this bill when it goes to Law Amendments Committee.

But the one thing that bothers me, "soliciting of funds" and I'm going to read this 44(4). "Where pursuant to subsection 3 a person is granted leave of absence he may during that period of absenc e solicit funds for a provincial or federal political party or candidate. " Mr. Speaker, how could a man working for the government of the day take leave of absence to go out to solicit funds for the Conservative Party and then go back on his job again three weeks later after he's got those funds ?

And it doesn't necessarily have to be at election time that he goes out and solicits those funds, he could stop any time now between elections and take leave of absence to solicit funds. Now what a position for a civil servant to be in. Why bother putting that in the Act ? Why let a civil servant get in that position ? My God there's enough people bag carriers in your party, and there's some of them down at the St. Regis Hotel every day, we don't have to have civil servants collecting money. And they are bagmen down there for the New Democratic Party hanging around all the time.

This is not the place for civil servants, it's not the place - you got other people in your

February 25, 1974 751 BILL NO. 7 (MR . McKELLAR cont'd) •. •. political party doing that job. We got people collecting money too, we got people collecting money, too, for our party, but don't have civil servants �ollecting money for political parties. Now there's another one or two problems in here that I don't like, but the one mentioned I think by the Member for- the point of view by the Member for Swan River. It's never been a problem for a civil servant to resign to run for public office. It's never been a problem. And be reinstated.

There's been lots of them, lots of them over the years have done this; been defeated and got their jobs back. It's been no problem at all. So we don't need legislation to do this. It was mentioned they lost their pension rights, You could name one that's lost, they've all been reinstated. Neady all of them, all of them. But there's a certain amount of risk attached to be running for public office, --( Interjection)-- Yes, sure, yea, that's right.

If he runs as a civil servant and you're re-elected as the government, then he'll lose it, sure, But a Conservative Party wouldn't do such a thing as that, not to anybody. They treat the people right. Conservatives have always been fair with the people. They've always been fair, they've always treated them ... No problems at all, no problems at all.

And the Member for Swan River brought out many many people , have been dedicated people in the Civil Service in every level of government both at the Canadian level, the British Government and other people and they've always had the opportunity to run for public office, arrl they've all taken leave of absence and they've gone back if they failed to win the election, gone back to their particular job, This has never been a problem, And I can't see for the life of me why the Minister of Labour is wanting to legislate something that doesn't need to be legislated.

Common sense would dictate to any level of government that a man should have that privilege, and he has had that right over the years. But when you get people out campaigning at election time, civil servants writing speeches as the bill mentions, writing speeches for candidates and such down the line, this is not right in my opinion that they should take such an active part.

It's quite true that I don't see anything wrong with the civil servant going door to door but you can't legislate everything and you can't legislate common sense, that's one thing you cannot do at election time, Common sense has to enter into the picture. And I don't see anything wrong with the old act. This is what bothers me about the Minister of Labour, There must be a tactic that he's about to bring on to people of Manitoba. There's something I just can't- be cause he was always so honourable when he was over on this side.

But I feel that there's something just a little, must be a little shady going on here about the Minister of Labour. My gosh, you know when you read the report of the New Democratic Party at the last election, you know, with all those CUPE organizers they had and all those other organizers they imported you know, there's something he wants to win the next election by a little bigger majority, or the New Democratic Party want to do something a little d ifferent than they did the last time. I never was one that had those CUPE organizers in my constituency the last time , at least I don't think I had them in.

There is 64 of them I underst and in the Province of Manitoba I think that were organizing along with the other organizers and I just can't envisage what will happen after these amendments to the Civil Service Act. Mr. Speaker, the government of the day at the last election had money coming out of their ears, had money coming out of their ears, as mentioned by the Member for Lakeside because they got all these nickels and dimes, they got all these nickels and dimes. Mr.

Speaker, I remember when we used to be on there and they used to chastise our government of the day about representing big interests , you know, the favorite words of the Leader of the day. My gosh, Mr. Speaker, we 're piker s compared to that bunch, we 're piker s. They spent over a half a million recorded moneys last time at the last election. Now they're wanting to take all the civil servants of the Province of Manitoba and put them out into the field , put them out into the field, Some of them will work while they're still on the payroll, others will work through leave of ab sense.

This is what they're planning on doing in the next election. Mr. Speaker, this is not right, it's not fair to the Civil Service of the Province of Mani toba, a dedicated Civil Service, who they're trying to destroy. The people that lead the public to believe that they're in favour and they respect the Civil Service, they're trying to destroy the Civil Service of the Provinc e of Manitoba. And they'll destroy it with this very amendment to this Act they're proposing under Bill No. 7. And it's not right, Mr. Speaker, it's not right that they the representatives of the people of Manitoba right now- and I only hope

752 February 25, 1974 BILL NO. 7 ,(MR.M cKELLAR Cont'd) ...•• they're not four years from now- and I know they won't be four years from now because the people are going to stand up and say, We1ve had enough of this, we've had enough, not only did they destroy the automobile insurance industry, they de& troyed the Civil Service in the Province of Ma nitoba, destroyed all the respect the people in the Province of Ma nitoba had for their province and everything else that goes with it. Mr.

Speaker, it's about time, it's about time that you took a halt to some of this here leftwing thinking and got down to basic --(In terjection)-- leftwing thinking, and this is all it is. You've been a left wing so long now you fellows, even the Minister of Finance, the Minister of Finance is getting saturated. He used to be a little different when he was over here too. He used to think a lot different. Mr. Speaker, I think it' s about time that we had a vote on this bill. I think it's about time we had a vote and I tell you the Conservative Party's going to stand up and be counted.

And I tell you the people of Manitoba will respect the Conservative Party for a long while for having fought like the Member for Swan River and Lakeside and Fort Garry and other members got up and spoke against this bill. I tell you you'll live to regret it if you vote for this bill. MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. C HERNIACK: I wonder if the honourable member would permit a question? MR. McKELLAR: Yes. MR.

CHERNIACK: In the event that he becomes satisfied that a reinstated ca ndidate, civil servant, under the present Act is not entitled to receive ba ck his pension rights, would he then agree that there ought to be an amendment to the present Act ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Souri&- Killar ney. MR. McK ELLAR: Mr� Speaker, I've always thought under leave of absence is a different thing than taking your retirement. MR. CHERN IACK: (not' audible) MR, SPEAKER: Order, please. MR. McKELLAR: Well , Mr. Speaker , I'm not that technical. All I know that, Mr.

Speaker, common sense prevails when you've got a good government in power. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Cresc entwood. MR. HARVEY PATTERSON (Cre scentwood): Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Well , just in listening to the debate on this particular bill and observing the actions of the members opposite it doesn't surprise me that they have taken the position that they have taken, because over the years I've learned that the Conservative Pa rty in Ma nitoba has never been too progressive and I was hoping that this session would see some progress made from that particular party and to my disappointment it has not come forth to this date, but I'm still hopeful , 1 'm one that never gives up.

I certainly am going to keep listening and hoping that I hear those words of progress coming from the honourable members of the Conservative Party. The Honourable Member for Souri&-Killarn ey mentioned that the Conservative Pa rty have always been fair to the people. Well, Mr.

Chairman, I was around in the 1930s and in my opinion they weren't too fair to the people in those days as I found it, and I want to say to the honourable gentlemen in the Conservative Pa rty that you can thank your lucky stars that we got Russ Pa ulley as the Labour Minister in this day and age, because the Honourable Member for Transcona, in my mind is one of the most progressive labour ministers that we have ever had, and he has been striving hard and working long hours to bring the benefits of the progressive government to the people of Ma nitoba.

I as a working man have been apprecia tive of the Honourable Minister of Labour and I was hopeful that the honourable members opposite would be likewi se and the Honourable Member from Souri&- Killa rney has disappointed me somewhat when he ca stigates the Honourable Mini ster of Labour in the manner that he did, because from the observations that I have made they seem to be rela tively good friends but today I don't know he must have had a bad breakfast or something.

But anyway I just want to say that Bi ll No. 7, I think that's what we've all been trying to talk about, and I would say that in my humble opillion, Mr. Speaker, that the civil servants can look upon this bill and almost take it as a declaration of human rights for the Ci vil Service. This bill is probably one of most progressive bills that we have seen and possibl e may see in this session. Here we are bringing a segment of society out of the past into the future. I'm particul arly interested in

Section 44 of the bill to Amend the Civil Service Act and to me there is real progress in that particular

section of the Act. I hear a lot of complaints

February 25, 1974 753 BILL NO. 7 (MR. PATTERSON Cont'd) •••• • coming from opposite on that particular

section of the bill and I can't really see where they are getting the complaints in that regard. The revision to the Civil Service Act has been long overdue and no doubt the civil servants will be welcoming this particular amendment to the Civil Service Act. I don't think that any government, and that includes our own, that we will ever please everybody all the time. There are bound to be people with reservations about the particular amendment, but I think, Mr. Speaker, the overwhelming majority of the civil servants will welcome these amendments to the Civil Service Act.

I seem to recall in the not too distant past that they had a referendum vote in the civil service concerning this particular aspect of whether they wanted the political rights or not and if I recall right the vote carried by quite a substantial margin. Mind you this vote, all of the members didn't vote, true, but just because. a member doesn't vote doesn't mean to say that he's against it.

Usually it means the opposite, it means that he's in favour of it because he hasn't got enough awareness of the fact to come out in protest against the thing, so if that were the case the vote would be overwhelming in favour of political freedom for the Civil Service. Now the civil servants in Manitoba I'm sure that they don't want to be any longer classed as second-class citizens in our society and I would certainly think that that would be true of many of the civil servants because why can't they participate in the daHy activities of political life as the rest of us do.

The Honourable Member for Swan River, I liked his little address to the House and I'm certainly agreeable with him when the civil servant said that they're "a ll for Jim. " I think that's a good sign, because if they're all for Jim then they should all be for somebody and certainly help out in the process of the political life in our province. The Honourable Member .for Lakeside he sort of disappointed.me in his speech concerning the particular aspects a,nd views he had on the civil servant. He didn't seem to deal with the question.

He was more interested in what CUPE or some organized labour people were going to do in the political field. Well I think that they have the right to do that. I think CUPE has the right to do what they like in the political sense and I don't see anything that would override anything that the civil servant might have. If the civil servants do decide to join CUPE I would think that that would be a democratic decision I would think it would come about through tl).e normal process of democracy.

I would jus t say in defence of some of the things that have been insinuated about the CUPE Union that the Canadian Union of Public Employees is one of the finest unions in Canada today. They're one of the fastest growing unions in Canada and they're one of the most democratic unions in Canada. So if I were a civil servant I would have no hesitation whatsoever in voting to join the Canadian Union of Public Employees.

And that is not to say that the Manitoba Government Employees Assoc iation is bad, I don't know of that organization, I don't know their functioning because they're not in the mainstream of the labour movement therefore I've not had the opportunity to assess their particular drive or method of operating. Now I understand that, if it hasn't already been done there will be shortly an application from the MGEA to affiliate with the Canadian Labour Congress.

Now I wonder what the members opposite would have to say on that particular aspect because you've got to remember that the Canadian Labour Congress have adopted the New Democratic Party as the.of ficial political arm of labour, so if the MGEA gets involved with the Canadian Labour Congress then what is going to be the argument then. Are they going to be accused of being influenced politically in the same light as what they're attempting to - some effort being made to join the CUPE Union at the present time?

I think it was mentioned in some of the speeches that some of the civil ser vants on the Federal level have rose up through the ranks, become prominent men, members of the cabinet in the Federal government and have made good ministers, so I would think that we shouldn't deny people in our society the right to rise up through the civil service and become good politicians, good ministers in government, and try to bring about a better society for everybody.

I would just like to mention that the International Labour Organization is a fairly well known body a tri-party world organization and Convention No. 111 of that particular body recommends that civil servan ts be given the right to political activity. Now if the honourable members opposite wish to oppose that convention then I would think that they would be running

754 February 25 , 1974 BILL NO. 7 (MR. PATTERS ON Cont'd) .•.•. against the current of some of the most Progressive Conservative governments in the past who have attended ILO conventions and certainly supported that recommendation. So I just wonder really at the basis of the argument being presented from the honourable members in the Conservative Pa rty. It seems to me that it's a smokescreen; and you know, Mr.

Speaker, it wouldn't surprise me at all in the final analysis the members opposite vote for Bill 7, because I really think that they are trying to make some political gain out of Bill 7, but when it comes right down to the crunch every one of them must have some civil servants living in their constituency and the civil servants that I have contacted in the main are as interested in the political life of Ma nitoba as what we are, and I ca n't see the honourable members opposite really trying to de ny those people in their constituency the right to participate in the politica l activity of Ma nitoba, Now, Mr.

Chairman, they mentioned that the Honourable Minister of Labour must have some underhanded scheme afoot at this particul ar point in our history in order to present the bill at this particular time.

Well I couldn't think of a more opportune time to present a bill of this nature, the first sitting of the session after an election where the political overtones ca nnot be taken to mean too much because if we were to wait untill the year before an election, then I would say they might have some valid criticism of the action that the Minister of Labour has taken because then they could say that we were trying to mobilize for the forthcoming election; but they can't say that now because the election is past and it looks like four years before the next one, so I would certainly suggest to the members opposite that it is not realistic to say that there is an ulterior motive on behalf of the Minister of Labour in presenting the Bill at this time.

I would think that he's being str aight forward and coming out with a bill that is in the best interests of the civil servants, and something that many of them have requested over the years. The Honourable Le ader of the Liberal Party gave quite a tirade on this bill and I really couldn't follow his debate that well because he was wandering hither and yon and he was reading - to me, he read things into the bill that aren't even there.

I couldn't find what he was saying in the bill; it didn't even given any inference to the things that he was intimating, so I would think he was talking about something else other than the amendments to the Civil Service Act.

There is one - quite a large insurance company in Winnipeg that does allow for paid leave of absence while seeking public office, ·a nd they are very modern in that re spect and it's certainly a welcome thing to see that, and I would think that maybe more companies would take a look at that particular type of policy in the future in order that many more people would be given the right and opportunity to seek public office than what has been in the past. As I find the civil servants - there is a lot of talk about the civil service going to be politically tinted one way or the other if this bill passes.

Well I find that the Civil Service is basic ally independent.

I think that they are dedicated people, and the great majority of them will probably never participate in the political process but those that do and feel a desire to do so, I certainly think they should have the right to do so, and we as a New Democratic Party government should make sure that they have that right to do so, because if we don't do it now it may never get done for a long time to come, if we take the words of the Honourable Member from Souris-Killarney where he says we've only got four more years to go, so we've got to do a lot in the next four years I would say to the Honourable Mini ster of Labour, and hopefully we can get it all done in the next four years and then they won't have too much to do in the years following that.

Of course, that would be normal process for· them anyway, because they never do too much in office so we couldn't look for a great deal in that area. But to carry on with the comment that the Honourable Lea der of the Liberal Party made. He talked about fund rai sing and kick-ba cks and he left the impression with me by his fluent speech and the manner in which he spoke about it, that it was an everyday thing to him; he re ally knew all about it; he didn't hardly have to think about it, it just rolled off him like water coming down the stream.

It was as if he had been doing it all the time, and he knew all about it, and certainly he was insinuating that this would be the policy if Bill 7 were to pass. Well I think that he has a lot to learn about the Civil Service, about their intentions, about their desires, and I don't think that that would be the case at all. There was some mention of political blackmail. Well I don't see anything in the bill

February 25 , 1974 755 BILL NO. 7 (MR. PATTERSON Co nt'd) ••••• that would indicate political blackmail in any way, shape, or form, and if anybody can read that into the bill, then they certainly got on different tinted glasses than what we have in the present market place because, you know, I'v e looked over the amendments and to me there's no political blackmail involved in this bill whatsoever. And I thought it was rather a wide-r anging debate; it seemed to touch on all bases, and it really didn't concern itself with the bill.

It was unfortunate that the Honourable House Leader of the Liberal Party had sort of made a per sonal attack on the chairman of the Civil Service Commission, which !thought was rather uncalled for; it certainly didn't go down very well with many members in the House, and I think that he kinda felt touched by it after he said it because it certainly left a quiet feeling on the House jus t at the time he said it, and I was sorry that he had said it and I think he felt the same way.

Now I think that the Civil Service, the people working in the Civil Service should have the same rights as any of the rest of us do in private industry.

Now if the CPR and packing houses and different placed like that can grant us leave of absence to take some participation in the political going-on in the province, there is no reason that the government should not be able to do the same thing with the civil servants - and on that particular point I would think that the civil servants are equally as qualified, maybe more so in many instances, to take up the political aspect of life as to what many of the rest of us are in the private sector; so I would think that the government has a responsibility to give that type of right to Civil Service to operate in the political main stream of politic s in Manitoba, Now if we follow the argument of the honourable members opposite probably they would say that people working for the CNR, or the CPR , shouldn't be allowed to give leave of absence to their employees to run for public office also, because in some kind of a form I guess you could say we' re civil servants or thereabouts, some of the railways live pretty healthily off the public purse, so in that regard we could be considered civil service too, but it would be a sad day that that came about and I would never want to see that.

Now you can look at Bill 7 and you can read into it many things that aren't there; you can see all kinds of bogey men in it, but really and truly if you wan t to read it as it' s written and not read between the lines, and take all the inferences out of all the political motivations of different types of people we have in the province, I think you will see that it's a very progressive bill - it's probably one that' s been long overdue - and I think that at this time in our history we will finally see the passing of the bill that will give the Civil Service in Manitoba equal rights and in order to take their place along with the rest of us being first-class citizens.

There is so much talk about politicizing the Civil Service. Well, you know, the people in the Civil Service they are human beings just the same as we are, and why should they be accused of becoming politicized jus t because many of them, t>tany many of them want to have the same rights as the rest of us.

To me that is an unfair statement to make and I don't think it would be that severe and I think that the Civil Service would become a better Civil Service if they had the equal rights as to what the rest of us had, and I'm certainly looking forward to this bill going to the committee stage in order that we'll really get the questions out and be able to resolve all of the iss ues if there are any in the bill, which I don't think there are, and I'm certain at this point in our history in Manitoba the bill is going to pass without too much difficulty. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for As siniboia, MR.

PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, I do wish to make a few comments on Bill 7,

an Act to amend the Civil Service Act. I indicated to the House last year that I would be voting for the principle in the bill, and I intend to do the same thing this year. However, I do have strong reservations, and some of my reservations have been much stronger in force during this session because of all of the debates that have taken place and I have listened to almost every speaker quite carefully. I know all of our members have spoken on the bill and they too indicated some of their reservations.

I know that the Member for Fort Rouge and my Leader has talked at some length in respect to what is not in the bill in respect to mobility of women in the Civil Service into senior positions , and in respect to the handicapped people that there should have been some consider ation given, which has not and which is close to my heart, and I have talked in this House on many occasions in respect to the handicapped people and I'm sure that the Minister of Labour is well aware of that- I have been doing that for years.

756 February 25, 1974 BILL NO. 7 (MR. PATRICK Cont'd) .•.•• But, Mr.

Speaker, what I do wish to say to the Hou,se that with this type of legislation, if it can be administered properly, and I know that administration difficulties will be many insofar as administering the Act, but if it can be administered properly and with proper legislation, and if the government would perhaps be prepared to give us the regulations when we do go in Law Amendments Committee, if they would give us the regulations to give us some idea how this bill is administered , maybe we would have less fears and less concern on this side, because some of the concerns ca n be justified, Mr. Speaker.

I know that the speakers have pointed them out on this side of the House. The Member for Fort Rouge indicated in respect to one of the principles in the bill, he pointed out that he had reservations with two, two points in the bill that he was concerned, and the one that I can be concerned, and just bring to the attention of the Mi nister, the one of rai sing funds.

I am sure that he wouldn't want to see one of the senior member s in his department or the senior civil servant, let's say, in the Public Works, or in the Department of Highways trying to raise money, because you know, I wouldn't like to be in that position, it would be pretty easy for that senior civil servant to raise money in either department, Public Works or Highways, and I don't think that we should leave that type of opening in this bill.

I know there was some indication by the Mini ster of Finance, he says if this is one of the clauses that you ha ve strong reservations, we'll probably take it out, and I was very pleased to hear this that the government is giving some indication to the House that they're prepared, they're prepared to change and give some consideration. But not only that, I'm really also concerned - perhaps maybe the government ca n give us some indication what the regulations will be, and if they would give us the regulations I'm sure that our fears would be probably removed or much less on this side.

Now one of the points that I'd like to raise to the Mini ster, and I indicated last year when the debate s took place that I would be voting for the principle which I will now and I'm speaking on behalf of the party, we will be prepared to see the bill go to Committee through second reading, and reserve our right to vote against it if we don't get any satisfaction.

But I would like to remind the Minister what took place last year , and not only that we are concerned in this House , but there are many civil servants are concerned as well how it will affect the civil servants themselves, because I know last year, and it' s no discredit to the Minister of Agriculture, and I hope he'l l lift his head up and listen, beca use last year he did speak to, I belie ve, the workers from his department- there was a large group at the Fort Garry Hotel - and perhaps inadvertently, or maybe it was completely misrepresented by some of the people that came to see me , but he said something to the fact that you should get involved in politic s or the civil servants should be involved in ••.

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Agriculture state his point of privilege ? MR. USKIW: I should like to have the opportunity to tell the honourable member that my address was not at all in that context. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, this matter was raised last year and I believe it was - he said something to the effect that they should get involved and the Member for Portage had it pretty well documented, and at that time the Minister did not retract, and as I say maybe that was not the intent, and I'm not saying for one minute that was the intention. MR.

USKIW: I reca ll the incident in the House wherein I gave an explanation as to what took place, and in fact I'll repeat it again, Mr. Speaker, and that was that I was outlining the way the politic al system operates and the fact that policy as enunciated by government has to be respected by the Civil Service regardle ss of which government is in office at the time. MR. PATRICK: Mr.

Speaker you can probably understand yourself what the Minister has just indicated to the House just this minute, but it was perhap s mi sunderstood by some Civil Servants or misconstrued, because after that speech I did have the opportunity or at leas t I would say several of those people that heard the speech who were at that meeting came to see me, and came to see us and we had a meeting in the dining room downstair s and we talked about it.

They were rea lly concerned and their concern was that if we don't get involved, do we still hold our job; and if we get involved and there's a change in goverrr ment, where do we stand then? So you know there is a legitimate concern by the civil servants. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, Order please. The Honourable Member for As siniboia.

February 25 , 1974 757 BILL NO. 7 MR. PATRICK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker so, as I say, I'm not imputing any motives at all to the Minister. I'm just pointing out that there is concern not only by the members in this House but there is concern by the civil serva nts themselves.

I know the other day the Member for Portage indicated to the House and documented, and I'm sure that the Mini ster of Labour was concerned in the case where one, the recommendation of one employee with much greater seniority than the one that was hired, went to an Appeal Board and the Appeal Board reversed the decision, which was the right thing to do in that case, and the other was not reversed. So these things happen. So for that rea son I say there's proper --(Interjection)-- No I agree , Mr.

Speaker, that' s correct but still I'm trying to point out to you that there are concerns as far as the bill is concerned; there will be administrative concerns in the way the bill is put into practice.

As far as the principle is concerned, I again want to state to the House that I am in favour of the principle for the simple reason, I think if there's proper legisla tion, if there's proper regulations - and we don't know at this stage what the regulations will be - I believe that many civil servants perhaps would have better protection than they have now in respect to pension rights and in respect - if a member decided to run for the Conservative Party or Liberal Party they would have the right to get their job back, and if they -- (Interjection)- Well that doesn't mean that they will, but I would say they should have a right to get their job back if it' s pr operly spelled out under this legi slation, if it' s properly spelled out in the regulations.

But again, Mr. Speaker, the two principles that were pointed out by the Member for Fort Rouge and my Le ader , and I hope that the government' s willing and prepared, and the Minister of Finance indicated that they're willing to remove some of the sections, and perhaps they can - we ca n also have the benefit of hearing the representations from the civil servants, and if we do and if it is to our satisfaction, that we have no concern of supporting the bill on third reading; but if we don't get the changes that we want , well we re serve the right to not support the bill. MR .

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR . CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, if no one else wishes to speak, I move, seconded by the Member for Sourie-Killarney, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 18. The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR . JAM ES H. BILTON: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I m ay have the indulgence to let this matter stand. (Agreed) MR . SPEAKER: Bill No. 19. The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR . HENRY J. EINARSON (Rock Lake): Mr. Speaker, may I have the indulgence of the House to have this matter stand. (Agreed) MR . SPEAKER: Bill No. 9.

The Honourable Mi nister of Agricult�e. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker , can I have the indulgence of the House to let the matter stand. (Agreed) MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 20. The Minister of Highways. MR . PAULLEY: .•• to stand, Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: Very well. The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Mini ster of Finance, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider the supply to be granted to Her Ma je sty. (Agreed) MR . SPEAKER: Th e Honourable Member for Logan. • . • . . continued on the next page.

758 February 25, 1974 COMMITT EE OF SUPPLY - DEPARTMENT OF PUB LIC WORKS MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 10 4(a) - the Honourable Minister of Public Works . HON. RUSSELL J. DOERN (Minister of Public Works) (E lmwood): Mr. Chairman, there are several questions left over from last day that I would like to attempt to answer, and I also mentioned that some of the questions I think should be more properly dealt with furth'lr into estimates, and I left those of the Gimli Industrial Park for that time.

The Member for La Verendrye, like other members, raised the, I think the valid com plaint that there wasn't su fficient space for MLAs or that there should be better space and better accommodation, better amenities for MLAs, and I have to confer with that. I know that the colleagues of mine in the back bench are particularly strong on that point. One of the problems, however, is moving people out of this building.

I think that it is true to say that it's easier to put a man on the moon than to remove someone from the Legislative Building; everybody in the Civil Service or the government feels that they have to be here; it's an ab solute imperative that their office must be located in this building and no other place, even a stone's - even though it's not air conditioned and there's considerable suffering in the summer time, as my colleague the Minister of Finance put out, it's still felt it's worth paying that price. And - better leave that one alone.

I think that the real opportunity for improving conditions working conditions for MLAs and others will come with the opening of the 405 Broadway Building across the street and the Provincial Library and Archives Building, because it'll be then pos sible for us to relocate some of our staff in the Legislative core area and free-up space in the Legislative Buildings themselves.

I think-that if the case can be made, and I think this case has to be made by the MLAs themselves, members of the Opposition and government backben chers, but they can make the case to the government for private office space, or small office accommod ation, that is now available to MLAs in other provinces, and of course members of parliament if they can make that case - and I would be receptive to it - then I think in the not too dis tant future the possibility would exist. The Crown attorneys --(I nterjection) -- Yes, I have, that's why I appreciate the points made by members opposite.

The Crown attorneys for example in the Attorney-General' s Department will be moving into the new office building at Broadway and Kennedy, and they have I think some 20 or 30 offices downs tairs, so it would be --(Interjection)-- you'd like a ministerial office ? It would be possible at that time to consider I think a division of those offices, assuming again that the case can be made and that the government is willing to accede to that request.

I recall that in 1970 there was a sub-committee of the House Rules Committee which was comprised of the Member for Morris, the Minister. of Labour and myself, who looked into the improvement of amenities for members, and I think some suggestions along these lines were made. I think that if maybe a similar discussio n was held and similar recommendations were made, this would be of assis tance.

The Member for LaVerendrye raised some questions concerning the acquisi tion of land for highways, and this falls under our newly acquired Land Acquisition Branch - I believe he was dealing with PR207 - and it is our understanding that acquisition is proceeding normally.

We have had no complaints drawn to our attention from people outside the government or from the Department of Highways itself, so I would assume that this could be discussed with the Minister of Highways ; but in terms of our relation to the question, we have not been asked to speed up the process or do anything different than normal acquisition procedures. The member also asked about the cos t of the walkway or the overpass that connects be tween the new 405 building and the Law Courts .

The estimated cost of that facility is about $150 , 000, and it will allow people in the Law Courts who provide law services to simply walk right across the overpass or walkway right into the new building and do their business there. It'll be almos t as if it was all on one floor. If we had gone below grade deliberately to hide an overpass, I personally have said many times that I think that aesthetically it looks fine -- (Interjection)-- I beg your pardon ? A MEMBER: Can you build an overpass below grade ? MR. DOERN: No. You build a tunnel below grade.

And the connecting link is really what I'm talking about, and I'm happy to have the attention of my colleague on this department. If we had gone below grade, we would have probably had to sink elevator shafts into the sub-basement; we would have had to tunnel, which is a fairly expensive procedure to go below

February 25, 197 4 759 SUPPLY -PUBLIC WORKS (MR. DOERN cont'd) .•. services underneath the roadway, etc. ; and estimates for that would run between two and three times what we are in fact spending. Without including the elevatoring and other complications, one estimate that I have from the department is $350, 000, and I think that we could say, and of course we 're just speculating at this point, that the final cost could run as high as $450, 000. So certainly it was consid erably more expensive; that was one reason why we made that decision.

The other one is that I think it was felt it was not detrimental aesthetically to the environm ent; I think it 's a lot more pleasant to move between two buildings through an overpass and be able to see the outside, than to go down through a tunnel which is really like a concrete box. The Member for Charleswood asked some questions about the efficiency of our post office. We recently moved the headquarters, the central post office system from this building, where it was located for many years, to the No rquay Building.

And I have to admit that there have been some snags, that there have been some problems in relation to quick delivery. First of all, we have had a considerable increase in mailings - the mailings are up about one million, the mailings are up one million - and we are also leasing more office space throughout the city, acquiring more locations, so we have more mail pickups in various parts of Winnipeg, and this of course makes it more difficult in terms of efficient delivery. And finally, we are in fact short of staff. We have requested four staff-man years immediately to help us iron out those problems .

My deputy informs me that I said the Norquay Building; I should have said the Library and Archives Building is where the post office is 'now located. The member also raised questions about the lighting of the grounds, and that' s sort of a problem that I have no easy answer for. I don' t like the idea of having the grounds and the park completely illuminated as if it were daylight. I don' t know if a sort of a park-lik e setting de serves that type of super bright illumination.

We do have people who patrol the grounds for us in the summertime, and even in tbe winter we have people who keep an eye on things, but I don' t know whether we should attempt to change the present lighting, which I admit is dull but I think fulfills the pu rpose, namely, it's sort of minimal lighting conditions for people who mi ght be in the area. And it might put a cramp on some of the old romantic individuals in our midst who may wish to sit out on a park bench in the summertime or perhaps even in the middle of wintertime and look at the stars. A MEMBER: Preserve that romance. MR. DOERN: That's right.

You' re appealing to my romantic element, and as a Conser vative of course you're a romantic to begin with. The member raised this question of repairing damaged sculpture, and that is I think one that again we have no easy answer to. I think all of us were horrified by the attack of some maniac in St. Peter's Bascilica when he attacked the - I think it was Michaelangelo 's Pieta with a hammer and damaged probably one of the great classics in sculpture, very traditional, but still very great.

And General Wolfe, who to Canadians is of great significance, apparent ly is missing his nose - and I assume that is not a result of the battle on the Plains of Abraham. And I think this is something we will look into, but I don' t know to what extent we can correct these things and whether if we do correct them, we'll simply encourage people to test their luck again. But it is our responsibili ty and we will see whether something can be done .

The Member for Ch'l rleswood also raised a point on mileage of vehicles, and he did un cover a misprint in our annual report that we discovered - he asked a question about gasoline and credit card purchases and parts' purchase, What we have disco vered is that those two lines were transposed or should be, should be transpos ed. The figures of gasoline and credit card purchases of expendi tures under Provincial Garage really should be 773, 000, and Parts should be 159, 000.

So that, first of all, that' s one point, Secondly, he asked about the increase in mileage in view of the larger number of vehicles purchased, and the explanation there is that we had 15 9 vehicles delivered in the last month of the fiscal year, so although it looked like vehicles were up conside rably, only half of them were delivered earlier, the last 159 were delivered one month before the end, and really were not in fact put into service.

Therefore it was not accurately reflected in either the vehicles or the miles - the vehicles were up, but the miles were up very slightly because of the fact that it was a late in the year delivery.

760 February 25, 1974 SUPPLY - PUBLIC WORKS (MR. DOERN cont'

d) And just a final question or two, Mr. Chairman. The member asked a question about the likelihood of a parkade in the downtown Legislative core area. I think at present although parking is tight, I think at present we can argue that there is adequate space provided. One can overbuild and have acres and acres of parking space - in fact it's been said before that the Legislative grounds are in fact one giant parking lot, and we have in fact hundreds of vehicles parked right on our grounds.

And with the addition of the new office building across the street and the development of the Library and Ar chives Building, etc. , although it would seem like thousands more employees will be pouring into the Legislative core, in fact many of them will be sort of just moved from one building to another. We have moved some of our people out of this complex out on Century Street, and so on, but basically we feel that the pres ent situation in terms of parking is not that bad. I think it's tight but it's not that bad. If you look at the ratio of spaces per employee we come off very well indeed.

If we were to build a large parkade which is probably required in the future, depending on other government plans, I think that we have to look at a very diff icult problem associated with that, namely, whether the Provincial Government should in fact charge, or levy a charge, for parking space to govern ment employees.

This, has been avoided over the years but I think that if the government pro vides say a parkade, or provides plugs, which I think is long overdue - many of the parking spaces available are not electrified and it just seems to me that given our climate a person should be able to plug his vehicle in in the winter. I think that's something that will have to be considered in the event of future improvements, and also future additions to parking spaces. I thirik those are pretty well the questions that were asked and left over from last day� Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 104 (a).

The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just have been listening to the Min ister's answering the questions and certainly we all appreciate them very much, his answers, but on many occasions during his answers and during the - when people are questioning some of the policies of the department, the word space comes up, space in building.

Now I don't think any of us would disagree that we want to have nice architectural buildings, and we want to have the best looking buildings that we can, but I was wondering on the new building that we have being built on the corner over here, that building is situated on the property that to me would seem an awful lot of waste space, or an awful lot of property is not going to be built on. I would think that if that building was square on that property we would have an awful lot more space available in that building.

Certainly we haven't seen - the building is not finished yet but there may be some plans for that vacant space, but Mr. Chairman, the Minister has in dicated that space is something that he hasn't got enough of.

Space is something that everybody wants in this building and he needs all he can close to this building, and yet - I know we want to have good architecturally looking buildings, but I think we've wasted an awful lot of space in that area. , There's an awful lot of land there that will not be used for office space which is re quired, and I wonder if the Minister can give the reason for that particular design. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR.

JORGENSON: I wonder while the Minister is cogitating that particular question if he would perhaps take into consideration a couple of more points that I would like to raise. I have some good news for the Minister and I have some bad news for the Minister. I'll tell him the good news first. I want to say to him that I appreciate very much the arrangements that he's made in front of the building for members parking facilities when the House is not in session.

It's possible now, where it wasn't possible in the past, for members who do have to come into the Legislative Buildings from time to time on business to find a place to park, and thaLis particularly a welcome change in the winter months when plug-in facilities are re quired. But I'm somewhat perplexed about the need and the reason, and I have to raise this par ticular point with the Minister of Public Works although I know that it comes under the more, accurately comes under the jurisdiction of Mr. Speaker.

I am wondering why it is necessary, if there is any reason that the Minister can give us why the public who come into the galleries to watch the proceedings of the Legislature have to come in with a ticket. I've known occasions where people, elderly people will walk all the way up not knowing that they require tickets and are turned away at the door, even though there's lots of room in the galleries, and have to

February 25, 1974 761 SUPPLY - PUBLIC WORKS (MR. JORGENSON cont'd) •.. walk all the way down again. It seems to me that that is an inconvenience that the public should not be subjected to. This place is open to people who want to use it, and I don' t know why it is nec essary to have these stupid tick ets; and I wonder if the Minister would look into that situation and perhaps would tell the reason why it is being done.

Is it just one of those bureaucratic quirks that are necessa ry in order to satisfy somebody's ego, or is it a necessity of some kind in order to keep a record of some kind . --(Interjection) - Well, since the Speaker is here we can refer to his department and that' s the reason I' m raising it with the Min ister because he's the only one I can raise it with, and I wonder if the Minister could give some answer to that question ? MR. CHAIRMAN : The Honoura ble Member for Charleswood. MR. ARTHUR MOUG (Ch arleswood): Mr.

Speaker, I mentioned earlier, on Friday when we first went into the Estimates if the Minister would inform the House who is titleholder to the Gimli Industrial site, who is the actual owner ; whether we're working through the Federal Government on loan with that property, or has title been transferred to the provin ce? And there is some concern about the restaurant there whether it' s owned by the province, and if it is, why ? Isn' t there any body that would be willing to go in there and take it ? Is the profit picture good on it ?

Is the government handling it in a manner that it shows a profit and this is why they want to keep it ? Is it not available for a private enterpriser to go in there and take it over? Now land acquisition, Mr. Chairman.

I did bring this up by way of Order for Return and I had a letter at that time that I wish I had now to read off to the Minister, but there was some thing going on in the Land Acquisition Branch when it was with the Attorney-Genera l's Depart ment whereby if somebody was offering for sale some land to the government for Mani toba Housing and Renewal that they would be contacted by a certain real estate agent in the City, and as time went on and this real estate firm made the deal and got it put together, this man would think he was getting 11 or 12 thousand dollars for his property, he got a letter from the province telling him that he would be paying the real estate 5 percent.

And I kn ow that I had just one occasion this was brought to my attention by a man that had property in Point Douglas . I was wondering if the Minister knows anything on this or could he explain to us why an occasion like this would arise. Also he mentioned he was answering some questions on parking. I think if the parking was policed better in the lot that it would be an advantage to all because opening day I know everybody that had tickets to come in here and watch this opening were well pleased that they could come in and park their car just by showing that ticket.

That I think is the first time that's happened and it's a great improvement over what it was in previous openi ngs . So I think if possibly day to day policing of the parking and a little more overseeing mi ght improve what we have now. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honoura ble Member for St. Bonif ace, MR. MARION: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I would lik e to direct some general observations to the Minister with respect to his estimates and then I would think that a number of questions will come from my general comments from where he might provide us with some answ ers.

I think that inasmuch as this is the first time that I address a Minister with regards to his budget I must tell him that as a business man I find it very very difficult to get any real meaty information on what the policies of the Minister is, and I find that by that fact very diffi cult to not only be critical but construc tively critical. --(Interj ection) --Yes, I mean to say that the budget is up 15. 03 percent for the total year over the previous year . But this --(Inter jection) --what are those intelli gent remarks, Mr. Minister ?

But I think that one of the things that bothers me is that if you break down that budget the 100 percent is made up of wages at 46 .5 percent of the total, and other expense being 81. 1 percent, with recoverables at 38. 4. Now when you look at a budget and you say that other expenses, which in essence in business are a catchall, amounting to a total of 81. 1 percent it becomes very very difficult to identif y any specific area in the budget. However having given you the breakdown that I'v e made I would like to take a look at two specific areas which I feel merit some consideration.

I think that in one of the areas you have an increase with respect to transportation, I gather, because it' s under garage, of 38. 5 percent. Now this is rather a very large increase and I would think that you have set a plan now where

762 February 25, 197 4 SUPPLY - PUBLIC WORKS (MR. MARION cont'd) •.• you intend on using smaller vehicles for transportation of employees, and it would seem to me that perhaps this should be reflected in the budget - rather than showing an increase we should be showing a hold-the-line or even maybe a decrease which would really be comm endable to you, Sir. I think that perhaps you might in further rema rks point out when you intend to introduce in large part these new smaller vehicles, and what basic effect they will have with respect to the transportation, total transportation costs. I think that inasmuch as salary plays such an important

part in any governmental expense the planning area also has me perplexed. It was the Member for Fort Rouge, I think, who pointed out that it is wise and right that a department have the necessary people it needs to perform its function properly. But I think that there comes a time when perhaps some of the planning and architectural and engineering facets of the operation can be just as efficient and far less expensive by going to outside areas. Now I know that we are dealing only with your budget. It would seem to me that there are probably planners, engineers and architects in other departments.

I wonder if there's not a possibility of vesting the basic responsibility for planning, architectural and engineering work with view in eliminating elsewhere if it can't be eliminated in your department alone.

I think that a question with respect to salaries, inasmuch as I've said they're up 46. 5 percent but that's not netted out because there is a recoverable of 38. 4,. and I don't know what portion of that recoverable is attributable to salaries; I wonder if you might advise when the time is appropriate if there is any portion of the $13 - 1/2 million that's set aside for general salary increases that further belong in your budget. It could be that there is some that belong there. Rental accommo(lations are another factor that seem to be growing by leaps and bounds.

This expense, this category of expense, is up 38. 3 percent. Now it could be that you have an answer to stop this growth by the purchase of the Great West Life Building. If that were the case then I would suppose that we would be in a position to terminate a number of our leases elsewhere and, although over the weekend you mentioned that this would be, the acquisition of that building would be quite a substantial acquisition, it might be, Sir, that in the long run it might be a wise acquisition to make if we're able to cut back on the others.

It's important that two considerations be given if the building is to be p.1rchased and it would be � one of them of course is the one I mentioned with regards to the breaking of leases or the termination of leases with present tenants; and the other would be that Great West Life itself should be made - part of the deal that we make with them would be that they remain as good corporate citizens of our city and perhaps occupy some of the area that's known as the downtown development area.

I think that --(Interjection)-- No, I hope you wouldn' t want to do that. --(Interjection)-- No I' m merely recommending, I'm merely recomm ending, Mr. Chair man, that we buy the building not get into the general insurance business. I don't have to prompt the government to do that. It has ways and means of developing ideas on its own. It needs not my encouragement. But I think that --(Interjection)-- it helps does it ?

I think that it really, Sir, it mi ght be a worthwhile project to really look seriously on those possibilities, with always the proviso and the total encouragement of this government that they relocate elsewhere in the downtown area. The revitalizing plan that is going on now, the Trizec project, and all of the other pro jects that are presently being contemplated; I'm sure, might be able to accommod ate; and if they can accommodate well there would be nothing wrong with the Great West Life Assurance Company building their own building. We know that the development plan covers roughly 12 square blocks.

The city has undertaken, along with the encouragement of the government, the development of a considerable sector. We're getting --(Interjection)-- well the Convention Centre was given a minima l type of encouragement. --(Interjection)-- Well $7 - 1/2 million in the plan that the City of Winnipeg has now undertaken is rather minimal if you think that it'll end up at $22. 5 million, if not more. --(Interjection)-- the cvnnotation I put is not the same though. I'm saying that perhaps the province might be well advised to spend more money. I think that there are congratulations to be offered.

The building that you are now building across the way is one that will lend its credence to the downtown development plan and I have --(Interjection)-- Well perhaps the cockeyed •.• is aesthetic, perhaps the Minister will answer the query that was made a little whileago with respect to the location on site of that building. But I think that there is one, Mr. Minister, there is a point that I would like to raise with

February 25, 1974 763 SUPPLY - PUBLIC WORKS (MR. MARION cont' d) •.. respect to the overpass. I think yo u'r e well aware of the downtown development plan ; yo u'r e well aware of the Plus-16 which translates into climate controlled corridors 16 feet above ground level between buildings in the entire 9 or 12 block area.

I think that we have council - the council of the City of Winnipe g talked at great lengths with re spect to the aesthetics of these walkways and I•m not sure whether or not your department con sulted with the authorities of the City of Winnipeg with respect to the corridor that is going up now, but I think it would be, it would be very impor tant that we tie in any kind of project, and you told us last week that you were aesthetically concerned, and I have no reason to disagree with that statement of yours. I think

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-1-29
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 1st hansardpdf 29.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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