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April 16,

SOCIAL SERVICES COMMITTEE

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Jim Bennett, MHA for St. Barbe, substitutes

for Andrew Parsons, MHA for Burgeo La Poile.

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Dale Kirby, MHA for St. John's North,

substitutes for Gerry Rogers, MHA for St. John's Centre.

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Kevin Pollard, MHA for Baie Verte

Springdale, substitutes for Dan Crummell, MHA for St. John's West.

The Committee met at 9:00 a.m. in the Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR (Littlejohn): Good morning, everyone.

First of all, I would like to welcome you, Minister, and your staff to the

Estimates for Education this morning. Without any further ado, I am going to ask

members representing our Committee this morning to introduce themselves. We do

have some substitutions, but those substitutions have been duly noted at the

Table

I am going to ask, if you would, Jim, to introduce yourself, please.

MR. BENNETT: Jim Bennett, MHA for St. Barbe, and I am the Education

critic.

MS PLOUGHMAN: Kim Ploughman, Researcher, Liberal Opposition Office.

MR. KIRBY: Dale Kirby, MHA for the District of St. John's North, Advocate

for Special Education.

MS WILLIAMS: Susan Williams, Researcher, NDP Opposition Office.

MR. CORNECT: Tony Cornect, from the great cultural District of Port au

Port.

MR. POLLARD: Kevin Pollard, MHA, Baie Verte Springdale district.

MR. LITTLE: Glen Little, MHA for the beautiful District of Bonavista

South.

CHAIR: Glenn Littlejohn, MHA for Port de Grave, and Chair of the

Estimates Committee for Social Services.

Minister, if you would like to take the time to introduce yourself and your

staff, that would be appreciated.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, I will introduce my staff.

Right to my left here is Janet Vivian-Walsh, she is the Deputy Minister.

Janet has only been in the job for a few months. Next is Don Stapleton,

Departmental Comptroller. Ingrid Clarke, the Assistant Deputy Minister for

Infrastructure. She is the one who is in charge of all new schools construction

and the work that goes on with repair and maintenance.

Behind me right here is Heather May. She is the Director of Communications.

Next to Heather is Sheldon Antle. Sheldon is my Executive Assistant. Next to

Sheldon is Brad Clarke, Director of Program Development. Next to Brad is Brian

Evans, he is the Director of Information Management and Special Projects.

In the back row we have Tracy Stamp. She is the Manager of Compliance and

Financial Reporting, and Renee Williams, Director of Policy, Planning and

Accountability.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister.

As the morning goes along, Minister, you have fifteen minutes for opening

remarks. Then we will pass it to Mr. Bennett. Mr. Bennett will have fifteen

minutes for questions or comments. Then we will go to Mr. Kirby and then we will

rotate on a ten-minute basis between anyone who wishes to speak on behalf of the

Committee. If that is okay with everybody, we will get ready to get started.

Minister, your opening remarks please.

MR. JACKMAN: Thank you.

I think

CHAIR: Oh, I am sorry, Minister, just one formality.

I ask the Clerk to call the first subhead, please.

CLERK: 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Subhead 1.1.01.

The minister, please.

MR. JACKMAN: Okay.

I think you know that this government has made unprecedented investments in

education, with the overall budget increasing by 42 per cent since 2003. This

increased investment has occurred despite the fact that student enrolment has

decreased by almost 14,000 students, or 17 per cent over that same period.

As you may also know, all departments, school boards, and agencies were asked

to find efficiencies and cost-cutting measures to help address a projected

provincial Budget deficit this year. As a department, we entered into this

exercise on the premise that front line delivery of services to students and

classrooms would not be negatively impacted. The fact that we have seen just a 3

per cent decrease in the overall budget from last year will tell you that this

government took this challenge very seriously. We have taken measures to reduce

costs.

school boards into one provincial board, with one CEO and senior executive

responsible for corporate and operational services located at headquarters in

St. John's. Regional offices will remain in Happy Valley-Goose Bay, Corner

Brook, and Gander. I have said on several occasions, a strong educational

component is the critical piece to these offices. The difference is that these

regional offices will be staffed primarily with executive and management who

will be the day-to-day decision makers on issues related to educational

programming.

Again, it is the corporate administration and the executive structures which

are being realigned. I cannot stress enough that educational programming

services provided to students and their families, and to the staff, will

continue to be offered in the regional areas, as they have been in the past.

I must also say this, even if there had been no fiscal challenge this year,

it would have made sense to examine the school board structures we have in place

to serve the much smaller student population. I have said it, 14,000 less

students, and a 17 per cent reduction since the last reorganization.

Meanwhile, the budget also provides $537 million. Almost 64 per cent of the

entire Department of Education budget is for teacher salaries, substitute

teachers, student assistants, professional development, and various services for

teachers.

Our commitment this year was to ensure there would be no change in the

allocation of regular classroom teachers who deliver the required curriculum.

There would be no change to allocations to special education. No changes to

direct supports for students with special needs, despite what we have heard, and

that Newfoundland and Labrador would continue to have the best pupil-teacher

ratio of any province in Canada. I repeat, the best, and we have done that.

We have retained many teachers in the system over the years, which the

allocation formula would have removed. We have even added teachers to the system

in some years, despite enrolment decline. In fact, in September of 2013, there

will still be about 265 more teachers out there relative to student enrolment

than there were five years ago. I think that speaks to our commitment to

teachers and to teaching services.

Meanwhile, over the course of the last ten budgets this government has taken

an aggressive approach to addressing school infrastructure throughout

Newfoundland and Labrador. That commitment continues, with almost $102 million

provided in Budget 2013 for new and ongoing school infrastructure projects to

meet the immediate and the long-term demands throughout the Province.

Again, there have been some reductions in this budget, but we are justifiably

proud of the investments we have made over the years, and continue to make to

improve opportunities for our students. For example, we have eliminated standard

school fees. That is at a cost of $50 million since 2006. We have extended the

provision of free textbooks to all K-12 public school students, with an

investment of over $20 million since 2007. We have kept class sizes at K-9,

Kindergarten to Grade 9, reducing the average class size at this level from 20.7

in 2004 to eighteen. This initiative alone puts an additional 180 teachers into

the system each year.

We have invested in new curriculum, new technology, and skilled trades

programming designed to meet the needs of our students in the twenty-first

century. We continue to invest in music, theatre, and visual arts. We are also

entering into the third year of implementation of the Province's Early Childhood

Learning Strategy, Learning from the Start, which is designed to enhance early

learning opportunities for young children and their families so that by the time

they get to school they will be ready and eager to learn.

Our overall efforts are paying off. In the mid-1990s, Newfoundland and

Labrador had the highest dropout rate in Canada at 16.7 per cent. Today we have

the second lowest: 7.4 per cent. We must be doing something right. Even as we

head into a period of some restraint, we will continue to direct the maximum

funding available into supports for our children and into our schools for the

benefit of our students and their families.

Thank you, Sir.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister.

Jim.

MR. BENNETT: Yes, Minister, shortly after this government took office, it

reduced the number of school boards to five boards.

Can you tell me, what was the objective? What was government trying to do by

reducing it to that number of boards?

MR. JACKMAN: I do not know if I can speak to what they were doing at that

particular time, but at this particular time we have, as I have said, 14,000

less students. We have seen a 17 per cent reduction. So when we look at

restructuring, the question comes down to: Do we invest in the students or do we

invest in an administrative structure that we think can be revamped and still

deliver the quality services?

If I just use the example of payroll, surely from a financial perspective and

the finances of these individual boards that are in place right now, we can do

that from one particular spot. That is what it comes down to, whether we invest

in management or we invest in students. We decided to invest in students.

MR. BENNETT: Minister, are you saying you do not know why we went down to

five boards, or nobody in the department knows why, or you do not want to say

because you did not answer the question.

MR. JACKMAN: I do not know if anybody in the department knows. If not, I

can just

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: I think it is exactly as the minister said; it is to

look at how much of an administrative structure is needed to support the number

of students. At the time we were down, as the minister said, we are down 14,000

more from that time in 2004. It is very much a matter of management versus the

supports for students, would be the reason.

MR. BENNETT: I am asking about the original downsizing, not the current

downsizing. What was the rationale for that downsizing eight or nine years ago?

Is there a written objective? Did anybody know what they were doing?

MR. JACKMAN: Does anyone know what they are doing?

MR. BENNETT: Did anybody know what they were doing and did they write it

down?

MR. JACKMAN: Jim, I would assume that they would have known what they

were doing and, as some of the stats that I have read out to you, I would say

they were successful in what they did. We have reduced our dropout rate. We see

our students who are performing better than ever before. We have implemented

criterion reference testing and such to inform and instruct as to how we deliver

programs in the school. I would think whoever they were at the time, they made

good decisions.

MR. BENNETT: Minister, do I understand from your answer that nobody wrote

down why there were doing so nobody can remember why they did it, or is it just

off the cuff? I mean, are we flying by the seat of our pants here or do we

actually have a written strategy that we pursue in this department?

MR. JACKMAN: There is one strategy that I pursue entirely when it comes

to education. That is improved student achievement. The number one aim of our

department and any board should be the improvement of student achievement. Our

investments in this going forward is to ensure that the cap sizes stay in place,

that we provide the services that we are presently providing for special needs

students, and we will continue down that road.

MR. BENNETT: Minister, what I am still going back to: Was there a written

there any way that we can compare what was the plan and what was the result?

MR. JACKMAN: We have been into discussions with people who were involved

in the previous restructuring. We are looking right now at putting a transition

team in place, records are still on file from the last reorganization, and those

will all be considered as we move through this process. All the details around

this are still being worked out, as we will put in place a transition team.

Government will not be accused of controlling the agenda; there is a transition

team that we will put in place to carry this out.

MR. BENNETT: So do I understand that nobody came with you today who has

any knowledge of the plan that was put in place when we reduced the boards the

last time?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: We have a plan for September 2013 and we are moving

along that plan, Mr. Bennett. The one from 2004 was very similar in its purpose

I am trying to answer your question as to what was the reason why it went and

it was reduced. It was very much as to look at where were the efficiencies to be

had, what were redundant services, and to try to concentrate specifically on the

school-based and student-based services, and that would be the philosophy of our

plan for September 2013.

It would still be that plan and we have different pieces of that plan, so I

am not sure if I am missing your point, but it would very much be of taking the

previous broads which went from eleven down to five and now we are going from

very much to take what is a redundant service, what is needed in every single

one of those locations, and what is needed in perhaps one location and handle

for the whole Province, and that is from a management point of view.

Then when we come to school-based services and direct student services, that

is the piece we wanted to retain and keep. That would be the philosophy of the

plan. We do have different pieces of the plan, as the minister has said, which

would be the transition committee. We have organizational charts and things like

that which are very much based on what the services would be. So unless I am

missing something, you can ask specifically.

MR. BENNETT: I do not know if you are missing or refusing to answer the

question, because the question is

MR. JACKMAN: We are not refusing. If you can get me the question and I

can clearly understand what you are asking, I will provide you with an answer.

MR. BENNETT: Was there a written plan prepared when the school boards

actually a written plan?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: There was not something called this is the plan or this

is what we are going to try to do, but there are very specific direction, time

lines, and the reason was to take as much as we could from the management and

put the monies and resources towards a consistent approach and combine where we

could.

MR. JACKMAN: So, from that perspective, there was a plan.

CHAIR: Just for clarification, before you speak can you make sure that

you announce yourself so Hansard picks up the conversation. I thank you very

much.

Minister, sorry to cut you off.

MR. JACKMAN: No, as the deputy has pointed out, the records that we have

on file clearly indicate time frames and the implementation. I go back to my

previous statement; the things that we are going to do in education are for the

betterment of the student population. That front line service is what is of most

critical importance.

MR. BENNETT: Nobody drafted a written plan when the school boards were

reduced last time, is that correct?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: I think there was a plan. It is a matter of whether you

call it this is a documented plan. There is certainly evidence of all the

things that were done and a very detailed plan was there, a very detailed plan.

MR. BENNETT: Minister, are you able to produce that to the Estimates

Committee?

MR. JACKMAN: We will go through the records and put something together,

yes.

MR. BENNETT: If we know what was the plan and only by knowing that can

we measure what was the outcome to determine if it was successful or not. How

else would we know? If we do not know where we started from and where we

intended to go, how do we know what we have?

MR. JACKMAN: Tell me what you would define as how would you determine the

success?

MR. BENNETT: You would need to know where you started. If you do not know

where you started from you cannot calculate if you are successful or not.

MR. JACKMAN: What would you use as a criteria to determine success?

MR. BENNETT: Minister, I am simply asking for the plan and you cannot

produce it. You have not produced it.

MR. JACKMAN: You

MR. BENNETT: You have not produced it, Minister.

MR. JACKMAN: Answer for me though, what would be the one determinant that

you would use as success of the reorganization of a school board.

MR. BENNETT: Minister, what I meant the Education Minister

MR. JACKMAN: My determinant is going to be student achievement. If I see

that student achievement has improved, that our dropout rate has gone from the

worst in Canada to the second best, we are having success and our investments

are in the right place.

MR. BENNETT: Minister, when I am Minister of Education and you are the

critic, you can ask me the questions. Right now, you are the Minister of

Education and I would like the opportunity to ask the questions. They are your

Estimates, not my Estimates.

MR. JACKMAN: I am only asking you for clarification.

MR. BENNETT: It is an interesting tactic to get here and debate and

provide no information. We are simply trying to get information, which either

you do not have or you are refusing to produce. It is that simple.

CHAIR: Mr. Bennett, the minister has already said and indicated to you

that he would produce the documents that he did have for the last Ms Janet

Vivian-Walsh did say that. They said they would provide that information.

Are we going to continue on that path? They did say they were going to

provide the information that they did have.

MR. BENNETT: Okay.

Minister, the next question is: Does the Department of Education interact

with other government departments when it formulates its planning for schools?

MR. JACKMAN: Planning for schools? Yes.

MR. BENNETT: Which departments?

MR. JACKMAN: We interact with Child, Youth and Family Services, we

interact with the Department of Health, and we interact with what would be now

the Advanced Education and Skills.

MR. BENNETT: What is the nature of that interaction?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, we set out a common goal. The goal for the Department

of Education, and Child, Youth and Family Services are the same. It is the

improvement and the betterment, and the education of our youth.

We interact with the Department of Health through having assessments

completed; we co-ordinate with the Janeway. Through Advanced Education and

Skills we recognize that the earlier we engage students in the type of

activities that we see the market is requiring, then that is where we develop

our planning.

MR. BENNETT: Minister, do you interact on a local basis with schools to

determine if there can be efficiencies achieved by having other government

departments utilize school buildings, like schools?

MR. JACKMAN: We are speaking with Child, Youth and Family Services around

if there is availability for daycare spaces in many of our buildings. As a

matter of fact, it is part of our planning and consideration now in new school

construction.

MR. BENNETT: What schools have you done that with?

MR. JACKMAN: The most recent one that we worked with Child, Youth and

Family Services, I believe it was on the Bonavista Peninsula.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: We have worked with the Labrador School Board in a

daycare in a school in Labrador as well.

MR. BENNETT: Do you interact on the basis of community schools and maybe

even post offices or police detachments or any government service that could

share space? Have you done that in your department?

MR. JACKMAN: I do not think we have not gone to a post office yet.

MR. BENNETT: You have not gone to a community school model?

MR. JACKMAN: We have not gone to having a post office in our schools yet.

MR. BENNETT: You have not gone to a community school model?

MR. JACKMAN: Well then I will I am assuming you have some information.

I would be more than willing to accept what you have. I would be more than

willing to take a look at it.

MR. BENNETT: Minister, has your department looked at a community school

model for this Province for small schools?

MR. JACKMAN: We have been looking at it for a number of years. I can even

go back to my days as a principal when we were looking at more utilization of

the schools. I think maybe ten or fifteen years ago it was primarily around the

use of the school for additional recreation and meetings, but I think even today

there are more activities taking place.

MR. BENNETT: Has your department included medical clinics in schools?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. BENNETT: Where is that?

MR. JACKMAN: I know we have one right in my own district in South East

Bight.

MR. BENNETT: Are there any others?

MR. JACKMAN: I cannot say off the top of my head, but I can certainly

check into it and see.

MR. BENNETT: Would you agree that if the Department of Education is

already paying for infrastructure, such as schools, that there would be certain

synergies to be obtained by having other government services provided in those

buildings?

MR. JACKMAN: If there is opportunity for those types of activities, we

would be more than open to it.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: I could also add here, Mr. Bennett, that in several of

our schools we have family resource centres that are very much a part of the

community model. That exists in schools here in St. John's as well as outside.

That is very much a part of the integrated early learning model.

We have also partnered with the Jimmy Pratt Foundation and McCain Foundation

for some research regarding the integrated learning between the daycare centres,

the family resource centres, and the school system as well.

MS CLARKE: (Inaudible) add that there is a school currently under

construction in St. Anthony where we have partnered with the town. There is an

arena being constructed adjacent to that school and we are sharing parking lots.

We recently had a meeting with Municipal Affairs and the Department of

Transportation and Works to pursue opportunities where we could collaborate on

projects.

Like our Deputy Minister just indicated, where there is a family resource

centre currently in a community where we are building a school and is housed in

a school, when we do new construction we always provide funding to ensure that

the family resource centre is included in the school. We have been looking for

those opportunities for many, many years.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Dale.

MR. KIRBY: Thank you. Dale Kirby, Member of the House of Assembly for the

great and historic district of St. John's North.

I have some very specific questions about the lines in the Budget, but I was

intrigued by some of the questions that my colleague, the Member for the

District of St. Barbe, had asked. I just want to follow up on some of the

minister's responses to that.

going to have in September 2013, did personnel in the department or the

minister, yourself, did you consult any of the literature on public school board

governance in the North American or Canadian context prior to moving to this? My

understanding of the research literature in this area is that when there are

fewer boards, and now we will have only one, there is far less autonomy for

trustees and local governance. Did anyone consult that literature and is anyone

aware that is more or less the accepted fact in this area of research?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, I guess you could dispute what accepted fact means.

First off, if I look at some other districts across the country, some of them

would have numbers that would be comparable to what we would have, the 67,000,

in this Province.

We recognize the challenge of the geography in this Province. There is no

doubt about that, but to think that an area is not going to receive

representation because we have gone to a larger board, I do not believe that. I

do not believe it. I am looking at, and I have said this on several occasions,

the presence we are going to have on the West Coast, in Central, and in

Labrador, the strong presence that we will have there, and in particular, I

would say, a very much more focused attention on student achievement and student

learning.

Now, I cannot give to you the specifics of how the staff will be deployed at

this particular point. We have an idea and now what will happen is a transition

team will be put in place. Then the people who make up that transition team will

now take a look at developing that and then see how we move forward with it.

MR. KIRBY: So in the absence of a specific answer to that question, I

will ask the question in a different way. There are a number of individuals down

at the Faculty of Education just down the road: Dr. Bruce Sheppard who used to

be head of one the precursor Avalon boards, the Eastern School District; Dr.

Jean Brown; Dr. Ken Stevens has experience from Australia and New Zealand as a

prominent sociologist and somebody who is quite knowledgeable in this area; Dr.

Noel Hurly, who used to be head of one of the larger school boards in New

Brunswick, I believe, or Nova Scotia, whichever but all of these individuals

have significant writing in this area. Did anybody consult with any of those

individuals?

MR. JACKMAN: Their report is available; I have read the report. I still

points, at this particular point, but I still think the delivery of education in

board. The piece that we are if I could downsizing, is the administrative

piece of it. The educational piece of it and the educational leadership of that,

when this unfolds, is going to be strong and I will contend that it is going to

be stronger than it is now.

MR. KIRBY: So, some of the folks in Newfoundland and Labrador are most

well acquainted with democratic decision making within the school system, our

trustees, and there are a good number of them across the boards that we have

already. To what extent were those trustees consulted on the plan for the

consolidation?

MR. JACKMAN: We went to our school boards, just as we did across

government with other entities, and asked them to see where they could find

efficiencies. They came back and the trustees were informed I believe they

were informed in February, if I am not mistaken; I do not know the exact date.

They came back with some recommendations.

After we reviewed these recommendations, some of them were accepted and some

of them were not. I will tell you one, as an example. Anybody who has been in

the education system will tell you there is one person next to the principal in

the school who is of critical importance, and that is the secretary. That was a

recommendation that we reduce some of the secretarial time. We did not go there,

knowing the importance of that individual and the challenges that come with just

delivering medication, which the secretaries often enter into.

So, again, throughout that entire process and I will go back to a point

that I made here if you look at other departments and some of the amounts that

they have cut, Education when down by 3 per cent. I will contend it and I will

stand up anywhere and defend what we have invested in education through this

budget.

MR. KIRBY: One of the concerns that I have, you are changing the teacher

allocation formula to devote fewer resources to administration at the school

level. As I have learned from principals and assistant principals, over the

course of time and not just since 2003 either, really since that landmark

study in 1968 on the state of the school system. Over time, increasingly there

has been more and more and more administrative responsibilities allocated to

schools, and a great expectation put on administrators to do a vast number of

things.

I would waste a whole lot of time here this morning recounting what they are

but certainly the people who do that work day in and day out know what it is

that they are expected to do, and what the department is expecting of them, and

what parents expect and so on.

One of the things that we have had a lot of conversation about in the last

twelve months or so in the House of Assembly and there has been a lot of

discussion about it in recent years more and more that we accept the fact that

bullying is not just some sort of rite of passage.

There is great expectation on principals and administrators to intervene and

ensure that our children are not bullied in schools, are not tortured in

schools, that people are not ostracized for their socioeconomic status, whether

they have the right lunch or the right sneakers, the right jeans, or if they are

the proper gender or sexual orientation.

Are you confident, Minister Jackman, that with fewer administrative resources

in schools that our kids are going to be protected to the same extent that they

are today?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes. You are looking at two former administrators: myself

and my deputy. I walked in those shoes for many, many years.

I will say for many of the points that you have mentioned and many of the

challenges that confront our children, I would say there have been services

provided beyond. Fifteen or twenty years ago you would have had seven, eight or

ten children who we would consider, I would think, behavioural problems and

these types of things who would have been segregated; people with special needs

who would have been segregated. We have put supports in place to ensure that

these children take

part in the mainstream. I would hope that you would agree

that the advances we have made to counter bullying have been tremendous and have

been far-reaching.

In the number of occasions that I have been into the schools, I see it time

and time again. The introduction of MyGSA around sexual orientation and that

acceptance, think where we have taken that, to make sure that these children and

students are not marginalized. We have made major advances. We have the admin

allocation I do feel still adequately meets the needs of the school.

CHAIR: Jim.

MR. BENNETT: Minister, has your department determined with any degree of

precision how much money will be saved by getting rid of three boards?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. BENNETT: How much is that?

MR. JACKMAN: It is around $12.8 million. Now, it may sway $100,000 or

$200,000 one way or the other, but it is around $13 million.

MR. BENNETT: Are you able to provide a spreadsheet that shows where that

saving is realized?

MR. JACKMAN: We can provide you with some, but at this particular point I

cannot provide you with the full details. I expect that we probably could within

short order.

MR. BENNETT: Will you do so?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes. There is nothing to hide. I have nothing to hide here.

MR. BENNETT: Do you have an idea of how much of it is going to be saved

through personnel and how much is saved in other savings?

MR. JACKMAN: We can break that pretty well down for you, but as I have

said, we have an interim board or transition team that is going to be put in

place and they will be working through some of those details. Like I said, I

cannot provide you with it all right now. We will provide with what information

I can provide you with at this particular point. If you want to stay in touch

with my office as things unfold, I will keep you updated on that.

MR. BENNETT: Minister, have you identified the members of the transition

team yet?

MR. JACKMAN: We are pretty close on doing that.

MR. BENNETT: Do you know any of them?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. BENNETT: Are you able to disclose who they are?

MR. JACKMAN: No.

MR. BENNETT: When will you be able to say who they are?

MR. JACKMAN: As a politician, I have learned to say very soon.

MR. BENNETT: Thank you.

Minister, one of the complaints with the Eastern School District previously

was, there was what I would call a democratic deficit. It seemed that the boards

were reconfigured before trustees were determined based on geography. Whether it

is accurate or not, I cannot say that.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, I think you are right.

MR. BENNETT: So that meant for a smaller geographic area, such as the

greater St. John's area, the Northeast Avalon, you would have a large population

and not many trustees. For the other parts of the Eastern School District, you

would have lots of geography and not so many people. Consequently, people in St.

John's that I have spoken to, felt that it really was not fair. Is that an

accurate assessment?

MR. JACKMAN: I think it probably would be. What we are looking at to

address at this particular point is that we would have equal representation from

each district now, and then have the room to increase should the transition team

feel that it is needed.

MR. BENNETT: Do I understand, then, that representation will be more

about population with the new board rather than by geography?

MR. JACKMAN: No, at this particular point, the initial set up would be

equal representation from each one of the present boards. Now, if the transition

team feels that more would be needed to reflect population, or more would be

needed to reflect geography, then let them come together and they decide.

MR. BENNETT: Minister, one of the issues with some of the board members

that I spoke with from previous boards I guess they are still existing boards,

not the previous, but the current boards is that due to geography, travel, and

time and so on, it was difficult for some board trustees to attend regular

meetings. It came at a considerable personal cost for them.

For example, it is five hours in good driving to drive from St. Anthony to

Corner Brook, and considerable expense. Will the new board or new boards

consider what would be a fair way to compensate far-flung trustees so there can

be equal participation, both in overhead and travel?

MR. JACKMAN: I have said myself, personally, I do not think that any

trustee should have to pay out-of-pocket expenses to be a trustee and represent

now. I do not know what will come in terms of reimbursing individuals. We will

let the transition team do their piece and then we will decide that further down

the road.

I will tell you one thing that is happening is that our investment in CDLI

has been I believe it is $60 million over the last eight or ten years. As a

matter of fact, it is recognized as one of the best across the country. School

districts are using more technology now to have that, those types of meetings,

so that somebody from St. Anthony could very well go on-line.

As opposed to travelling to Corner Brook five times a year, they may travel

to Corner Brook twice a year and then have the technology to deliver the other

three meetings. So, those types of things are being explored to cut down on

cost.

MR. BENNETT: Minister, I think most of us agree that school board

trustees have a relatively onerous job, and it is voluntary. Is there

consideration that they would be compensated in the form of some sort of per

diem or replace their income?

If a person is called for jury duty, for example, to sit in the courts for

however long, they get at least some sort of compensation for it. Is there any

consideration that and I know this is an area of cutbacks, but if we do not

compensate people then it makes it more difficult to get better people to serve

as trustees, does it not?

MR. JACKMAN: I do not think we can get any better people to serve as

trustees than the people that we presently have. These people are doing it. I

believe the true majority of them are doing it because they believe in the young

people of the Province and they believe in education.

From my time in meeting with trustees, I have found them to be dedicated

individuals. You are quite right; all you have to do is look at some of the

school closures that were proposed this year to see what trustees are subjected

to. I think they are world-class, but in terms of are we going to reimburse

them? I am not able to say at this particular point.

MR. BENNETT: Minister, I do not dispute the intent or the calibre of the

individuals who are the current trustees; however, on reviewing the annual

reports of all of the school boards, I noted that there was a fairly significant

age and gender imbalance. Would there be some consideration by the department so

that the people who are school board trustees are not the age of you and me or

older, and more of them are women and more of them are people who have packed

lunches for children some time in the last twenty years?

MR. JACKMAN: I do totally agree with you. The gender balance is one that

is very, very obvious. The representation of the age appropriate, I agree with

you. It is something that we will take a look at.

MR. BENNETT: I think six of the ten French trustees are women and four

are men.

MR. JACKMAN: I was looking at the imbalance the other way, with the

MR. BENNETT: I was thinking if they could do it with the French board,

and Labrador is nine and six, or it was when I last looked, and I think it was

like eleven and three in Western, with one vacancy, and at one point it was

fourteen and one here in the East, I would think that if there was some

mechanism maybe in the bylaws whereby a certain number had to be women, a

certain number had to be a certain ages, almost like political parties do -

political parties want to cater to the youth and they want to cater to the older

people and they want to cater to whatever.

MR. JACKMAN: We do not have to be a certain age before we can get into a

political party, though.

MR. BENNETT: Well, school boards are very political, whether they should

be or they should not be.

MR. JACKMAN: I am not making light of your point. I truly do hear what

you are saying and it is one that we have talked about.

MR. BENNETT: I will pass to Mr. Kirby before I start something else.

CHAIR: Dale.

MR. KIRBY: Thank you Dale Kirby, Member of the House of Assembly for

the great and historic District of St. John's North.

I have some more specific questions, but I just wanted to pick up on

something that the minister had said in a response to questions from our

colleague for the District of St. Barbe. You talked about, and I have heard you

talk about quite a bit in the past, the success that we have had in terms of

reducing the dropout rate.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: Certainly, a contrarian could say that the curriculum is

significantly shifted over the same period of time that the dropout rate has

been changing. As you are aware, there are a variety of different ways that we

can judge outcomes and success of the school system. One could make an argument

that we would do that quite differently today and we have done it quite

differently since 2003 than we did prior to then.

Does the department monitor or accumulate any statistics on outcomes when it

comes to senior high school graduates who complete courses that enable them to

access post-secondary education programs, trades, college, and university versus

those who do not, rather than looking at the dropout rate? If I get to the end

of the line and what I have is a credential that does not enable me to access

post-secondary education and potentially transcend the socio-economic position

of my parents, then I really do not have a whole lot at all.

Does the department collect or collate statistics that would show this?

MR. JACKMAN: You do not remember my answer in the House of Assembly here

one day when you asked me a question. I will get you the stat now.

MR. KIRBY: Is this for the past program again?

MR. JACKMAN: No, I am going to correct you on that later. What I am

telling you is I provided an answer that showed that the number of students who

are graduating with the honours program has gone up.

The three-streamed program is meeting the needs. I will use this example; any

of us who have been in education will know that we came across a student who in

Grade 6 was having the most difficulty reading, but that individual could pick

apart a motor, put it together, and go into a garage when they were in Grade 10

and disassemble and assemble an engine.

Previously, these students would have dropped out as soon as they were able

to. Our system now allows these students to stay in and now they are geared very

much towards accomplishing a program in that. The academic side of it, they

would still face the challenges, but if I use the mechanical side, these

students will do quite well.

Now that we have the number of students who are moving up in the honours

category, sure, it gives them more choice. I will provide you with those

numbers.

MR. KIRBY: Yes, it would be interesting to see about the movement at the

other end of the spectrum, away from academics to it would be interesting to

see. The other point would be in terms of actual transition. I have not seen a

lot of research coming from this government on transitions. In fact, I have not

really seen much since the White Paper on Public Post-Secondary Education.

MR. JACKMAN: What do you mean by transitions?

MR. KIRBY: From high school to trades programs, to college programs.

Again, we can look at the number of students who are dropping out or not, but it

would be more useful to look at outcomes in terms of where they are ending up

after they leave that third or fourth year of high school.

MR. JACKMAN: I am willing to bet you that there are more students going

on to a post-secondary education now than there ever was before. The mindset

around post-secondary education has changed.

At one time if we spoke about post-secondary education, it talked about your

learning institution: Memorial. Now when we talk about post-secondary, it talks

about the skilled trades because I do believe that at one point a Memorial

education was here and a skilled trades program was here.

I will tell you this story. I have five children I have told people this

before. Two of them are teachers, one is a social worker, and one is a chef.

Their pictures were on the wall. My other son is a welder. I said: Come with me.

I want to take a picture of you with a gown on, so when someone comes into my

house and asks, ok your son is a chef, teacher and a social worker; what does

this fellow do? He is welder. He is a welder? They did not look at the welding

trade as being the up here type of course. Go and speak to some of those folks

now and see where they are.

MR. KIRBY: There is no doubt we have done a lot over the past fifteen

years or so to diminish the perception that trades are somewhat less than other

destinations.

MR. JACKMAN: Definitely.

MR. KIRBY: Does the department have those statistics then on what those

transitions are; what the outcomes are for our high school graduates; how many

go to trades; how many go to college; how many goes to university here in the

Province; how many go outside of the Province?

MR. JACKMAN: I do not think we would have them as a department. Maybe

Janet you can speak to that if you want to.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: I would think we would be able to get some of the

through AES as well, Mr. Kirby, but I will say to you that from a K-12

perspective there is great interest in the Atlantic Provinces and through my

colleagues at the CMEC level when we meet.

One of the main priorities right now is transition to post-secondary, trying

to reach the more vulnerable groups, the groups that are not choosing

post-secondary. Whether that being a socio-economic factor; sometimes it is

actually achievement of boys; there is concern regarding boy achievement and

where that would be; and some other vulnerable groups that do not have the role

models to allow them to pursue post-secondary and to be encouraged to

post-secondary.

There is a big piece of work being done through CMEC now and trying to fit

that transition to post-secondary to the labour market, as well, because there

is a bit of a misfit there as well. How do we, from the Atlantic Provinces point

of view, satisfy the labour market through what we are doing with career

counselling, career guidance, and through handling the vulnerable groups to

better fit our own labour market?

So, that is a piece of work being done now, but I would say that we could get

you some statistics. I certainly am aware of I have conversations with

Memorial University regarding the numbers that are going in from our system so I

have that, but in terms of the college pieces, I am sure I could probably get

that for you, Mr. Kirby.

MR. KIRBY: It would be useful to have, because it is difficult for people

external to government to access that data these days. One, government is not

providing it and publishing it the way that it used to; and, second of all,

because of concerns around protection of privacy issues because of getting all

of these personal identifiers. Some institutions follow based on an MCP number

and then they have their own internal numbers, et cetera. Government is really

in a position to provide the data rather than anyone else.

The last question I have with respect to this is around the transitions to

employment. The best way as to really judge the success of the system is to look

at attachment to the labour market. The best measures of that, as far as I am

concerned and as far as a lot of researchers are concerned, is to look at the

number of individuals who are reliant on employment insurance and the number of

individuals who are reliant on Income Support, proportioned by the level of

educational attainment.

Again, I have not seen anything published from government on this since the

White Paper on Public Post-Secondary Education was produced. Does the department

have any up-to-date statistics when it comes to those particular labour market

attachment statistics? Is there something that can be provided?

I will go back to what I said earlier. You can talk about dropout rates all

you like, but it is really not a good indicator of how successful the school

system is in preparing people to do what we want them to do, which is to get a

decent job and stay in a decent job.

MR. JACKMAN: I think, as the deputy said, we can gather up some of that

information and certainly we would have to consult with Advanced Education and

Skills as well.

MR. KIRBY: Is this something that I can write to you in six months and

ask you if you have it available?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, you can. Indeed you can.

MR. KIRBY: Okay. Good, thank you.

MR. JACKMAN: You are welcome.

MR. KIRBY: I will hand the conch back over to my colleague.

CHAIR: Jim.

MR. BENNETT: Minister, the Schools Act permits you to extend the term of

the school board for whatever reasons you see fit, and the term comes up in the

fall.

Have you considered extending the term of the current board by, say, another

year rather than have new school board elections to allow more time for this

configuration?

MR. JACKMAN: We have discussed it, but at this particular point that is

the limit to where we have gone with it. We are saying that this transition team

will have things done and in place by September. If not, then shortly before

that we will see where we go.

MR. BENNETT: Would you not agree, though, Minister, that what you are

proposing is a very substantial piece of work for people to do in a short time?

MR. JACKMAN: Definitely, and we have said from the outset, we are not

going to compromise on ensuring there is good work done. We will assess that as

we go through.

MR. BENNETT: Minister, a handful of schools currently offer full-day

kindergarten in the Province. You are probably aware of that. I understand it is

not government's policy right now to go to full-day kindergarten, but why not?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, for one thing we have a number of our facilities that

would not be able to handle it. So, we have made a decision that while we are

taking a look at it, we are not going there at this particular point.

MR. BENNETT: Minister, why not phase in full-day kindergarten over time

with wherever the facilities or the teachers are available and the demand was,

ultimately over a period of three or four or five years maybe, and have full-day

kindergarten?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, all I can say to you is that based on the research in

learning, we decided where investments were going to be made, and right now, it

is our Early Childhood Learning Strategy that we are focusing on. As I said, we

are still reviewing, looking at full-day kindergarten, implementation costs and

so on and so forth, but we are not there now.

MR. BENNETT: Minister, has your department determined how much it would

cost to phase in full-day kindergarten?

MR. JACKMAN: We have looked at both phase in and full, but we have not

identified a finalized number, no.

MR. BENNETT: Minister, earlier you said the current budget is going to be

some small amount I think 3 per cent or so less than last year's budget.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. BENNETT: However, last year's budget was underspent by $50 million,

correct?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes. Do you have a line you want me to

MR. BENNETT: Last year's budget was $866 million, and what was actually

spent was $815 million, and this year's budget is $840 million.

CHAIR: Mr. Bennett, Jim, can I ask you to so we are all on the same

page here.

MR. BENNETT: Page 15.3.

CHAIR: Page 15.3.

MR. BENNETT: It is the very last line.

CHAIR: The last line in Administrative Support, 2.1.01, is that where we

are looking?

MR. JACKMAN: Is it 4.2?

MR. BENNETT: I am looking in Estimates 2013, total department costs.

MR. JACKMAN: You are looking at the first page there.

MR. BENNETT: No, the very last page, the total, the bottom line.

MR. JACKMAN: The last page.

MR. BENNETT: Page 15.3, and it is line, I suppose, 3.5.01.

MR. JACKMAN: Page 15.13.

MR. BENNETT: Yes.

CHAIR: I am still not following you, Jim, so

MR. JACKMAN: No, it is page 15.13.

CHAIR: Page 15.13. Okay, thank you.

MR. BENNETT: Last year $866 million was budgeted and $815 million was

actually spent. So, in fact, the department underspent its budget by $51

million.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. BENNETT: That means this year's budget is $25 million more than was

last year's actual.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. BENNETT: Why is it, if it is $25 million more, necessary to collapse

these school boards?

MR. JACKMAN: What you are looking at is the finalized number now across

the entire department. I can tell you that a percentage of that, going from $866

million to $815 million, would have to do with Ingrid's shop. That we budgeted,

I do not now, $28 million let's say for school construction. Some of them did

not get through this year, money is carried forward. That would be

MR. BENNETT: Capital works

MR. JACKMAN: It would be capital. As well, the reduction from $866

million to $840 million is because of some of our 3 per cent exercise that I

have identified, but a majority of that difference between $866 million to $815

million would be through capital construction.

MR. BENNETT: Minister, I understood you to say a few moments ago that

instead of full-day kindergarten the department is focusing on Early Childhood

Learning. Is that correct?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. BENNETT: On line 3.4.04

MR. JACKMAN: What line is it?

MR. BENNETT: The page before.

CHAIR: Subhead 3.4.04?

MR. BENNETT: That is correct.

CHAIR: Page 15.12, Minster.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. BENNETT: Under item 10, Grants and Subsidies, last year the

department budgeted $1.174 million and used $1.124 million. This year the budget

is $524,000, which is $600,000 less, but you say that you are focusing on Early

Childhood Learning.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. BENNETT: How are you able to save $600,000?

MR. JACKMAN: One of the programs we were going to implement this year was

to work through our provincial libraries to offer some activities in the

libraries, and that would have amounted to $500,000 or so. What we have decided

to do now is to hold off on that.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: Just adding to that, it is early literacy programming,

and we are still piloting. We are reducing the number of sites. That will still

go ahead, that early literacy. It is a pilot, and thus we will assess it and

determine then moving forward, but it still will be an initiative done this

year.

MR. BENNETT: Minister, on page 15.9, under category Student Support

Services, 3.3.01, line 05, Professional Services. This is appropriations to

provide for the development, implementation and evaluation of programs for

children with special needs.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. BENNETT: This amount is being slashed by $500,000?

MR. JACKMAN: This is the one I hoped that the NDP was going to ask. Thank

you for asking it.

This is a program that we have called a past program. It was piloted in eight

schools. It was to identify students at risk.

To bring this program in, it had to be the development of curriculum, the

other associated costs that come with it. This project now, the pilot has been

completed. Contrary to someone saying that I do not believe in pilots or

whatnot, now comes the decision. Based on what has come out of this, our new

board will determine, do we want to proceed with it or not?

MR. BENNETT: Does that mean that the $572,200 which was spent to the

penny, which is a good thing

MR. JACKMAN: What line are you on?

MR. BENNETT: Does that mean it is up and running and the $70,000 is

operational? Or does that mean that it is abandoned?

MR. JACKMAN: No, it is certainly not abandoned. What we have done through

a pilot is we have gathered information. Now a decision will be made whether we

will continue with it or not.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: That pilot that has existed, as the minister said, and

actually it existed in we have eight teachers there, but there is one school

that has two schools attached to the one teacher. We have built the capacity, as

the minister said, through the initiative. The schools have the skill set now to

continue that initiative.

The districts right now, they are able to decide if they are going to

continue that, if the success has been in that particular school. I can say that

districts are working through that now. I already am aware that four of them are

already going to be in the schools next year and continued. The others are just

working through their numbers now.

It is a program, though it is under Student Support Services and it is for at

risk, it was never meant for students who had special needs or exceptionalities.

It was for students who had significant issues of achievement who were not

special services or had issues, major concerns, with attendance or some issues

regarding disciplinary issues in the school. The idea was to get these students

back; some of them were not actually in the school.

MR. JACKMAN: Some of them were not even in the school.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: To try to get them back and increase their numbers. It

has been very successful. The most important piece is building that capacity

within the school and the district because it was a very different approach. It

would involve what we called credit recovery and credit rescue which would allow

students to do things at different paces.

Credit recovery would be to determine how the student had done and take them

from where they were and try to get that credit, a little bit of a different

approach in the structure. A lot of it was capacity building. As a pilot, the

monies came through poverty reduction. We do consider it a very successful

pilot, though, I have to say.

Some of the districts actually, one in Western and one in the Eastern board,

without being part of the pilot, took units from their own to put towards this

as well.

CHAIR: Jim, hold your thought.

Dale, please.

MR. KIRBY: Thank you.

Dale Kirby, the great and historic district of St. John's North.

Line 1.1.01, page 15.3, the budget for the Minister's Office.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: There was a $22,000 increase in 01, Salaries, there.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes. I am going to let my deputy explain this one.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: Mr. Kirby, that particular one there used to be a

parliamentary secretary position attached to the Department of Education. What

you see there, if you went back to the Estimates of 2011 you would actually see

that, that there was that attached. It was not attached and put in the budget

for 2012-2013. Actually, it was taken out again. So, it was taken out twice, and

it was $27,000.

That particular amount is attached to a position that no longer exists in the

Department of Education, but the budget was started with, was not put there, but

then it got taken out, so in other words it got taken out twice.

The most important thing for you to know is that $240,600 is the salaries for

four people and that would be the equivalent amount that would have existed if

we did not talk about the parliamentary secretary piece.

Though it looks like an increase, it is not, Mr. Kirby.

MR. JACKMAN: I am not getting paid any more.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: It is confusing, however.

MR. KIRBY: Okay. Yes, it is.

Then, under Transportation and Communications, there was $21,000 unspent in

the previous year, 2012, and this was subsequently reduced in 2013. Maybe walk

me through the changes there.

MR. JACKMAN: We decided to lower our transportation.

MR. KIRBY: Why would we have budgeted an additional $21,000? How were the

savings realized?

MR. JACKMAN: You are looking at the $54,300 gone to $33,000.

MR. KIRBY: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: That was simply what we budgeted. As a result of some

cost-saving measures, we decided in our office, myself, my executive assistant,

that we would do less travelling.

MR. KIRBY: You are putting less money on the gas card; is that what you

are saying?

MR. JACKMAN: We do not have a gas card. Are you proposing that as a

party?

MR. KIRBY: You are travelling less, yourself and your political staff?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes. We started in our office if we are going to have

cost-saving measures. We start just as everyone else.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

Then under 1.2.01, Executive Support, Salaries, 01, you went over budget in

2012-2013.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes. Those were severance and leave for two people.

MR. KIRBY: Okay, severance and leave for two people.

Then under Transportation and Communications you had another $15,000 or

thereabouts unspent.

MR. JACKMAN: My deputy and her staff are not travelling as much.

MR. KIRBY: We are budgeting the same amount there?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes. While we budgeted the same amount, based on just being

safe in case we need it as a department, we still look at whether we travel as

much or not.

MR. KIRBY: It seems like a relatively small amount of money, but for

interest groups and

MR. JACKMAN: We want to make sure that there are sufficient funds there

to get there. As you see from last year $40,100 to $25,000, one of them might

have been that our new deputy has been in for the last three months, she has not

had a chance to leave the office to go home let alone travel across the

Province.

MR. KIRBY: Sure. I see what you are saying, but that $15,000 represents

about three times the amount of money that was cut from the Federation of School

Councils. We will talk about that a little bit later. While it seems like a

relatively small amount of money, to groups that rely on the Department of

Education for their existence to some extent, it is actually quite a substantial

sum of money.

To go next in my notes here, Corporate Services, 2.1.01, just let me locate

it here

MR. JACKMAN: What line are you on? Oh, yes.

MR. KIRBY: Line 01, Salaries. It is 2.1.01.01, Salaries.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: We have $204,000 less planned to be spent in this year than

the previous year. I note that last year the budget for this line actually

exceeded over what was budgeted.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes. Exceeding was, again, due to severance leave. The

reduction this year is because we have taken some positions out of this

division.

MR. KIRBY: So you have taken some positions out. What sort of positions

would they be?

MR. JACKMAN: We have taken two financial officers and a Clerk III and a

payroll clerk.

MR. KIRBY: What would those financial officers have been doing, what sort

of work?

MR. STAPLETON: One of those was a financial officer who supported student

transportation. We had a retirement coming up, so a number of years ago we put

another position in place to kind of job shadow and learn. That person has since

retired and the person moved over to that position.

The second financial officer was really internal controls, something that has

been added recently with the reorganization of government where the accounts

payable went over to Corporate Services. That was a position that was added and

has not really gotten fully functional. So when the restraints came we cut back

in that particular area.

MR. KIRBY: Okay. So one was student transportation, the other one was

internal controls.

MR. STAPLETON: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: What sort of work would the Clerk III have been doing then?

What sort of files are we talking about?

MR. STAPLETON: The Clerk III would have been a secretary. I am the

Director of Financial Services, so it would have been my secretary for my

division.

MR. KIRBY: This is basically someone's administrative assistant.

MR. STAPLETON: Exactly.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

Then we go down to 06, under the same line 2.1.01.06, Purchased Services. We

can see that $50,000 went unspent in 2012, and now we are talking about spending

a little over $75,000 less on Purchased Services. What did we purchase less of

in 2012, and what are we purchasing even less of in the coming year?

MR. JACKMAN: This is primarily around production of printed material. So

what we have decided is that we are going to take more responsibility internally

to deliver that.

MR. KIRBY: Well, that makes an awful lot of sense to me.

MR. JACKMAN: Thank you.

MR. KIRBY: Moving on to the next one. Sorry, I guess I have one more and

then I will run out of time.

Under Property, Furnishings and Equipment, there was $4,400 more last year.

Did somebody buy an armoire?

MR. JACKMAN: It was not in my office.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: That is the Department of Education's share towards the

equipment in the fitness room here.

MR. KIRBY: Okay. That is pretty close, so we are almost holding the line,

but even less so in the coming year.

Maybe if I just ask my last question under this one. Under 10, Grants and

Subsidies, there is a $10,000 reduction. Is there one or more loss of grants

here?

MR. JACKMAN: No. We often receive letters from schools just looking for

some funds to help out with particular areas. It might be to develop a reading

program or something in a particular school. That has been traditionally

$55,000, so we decided to take $10,000 off that.

MR. KIRBY: These are grants that you have ministerial discretion over, is

that correct?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

You can go to Mr. Bennett.

CHAIR: Jim.

MR. BENNETT: Minister, on page 15.6, under Financial Assistance, 3.1.01.

MR. JACKMAN: Subhead 3.1.01? Yes.

MR. BENNETT: Right near the top, under "Appropriations provide for the

cost of teachers' salaries and associated employee benefits, exclusive of

teachers' pensions."

Can you tell me how teachers' pensions are dealt with? Are they dealt with

the by the Department of Education or the government generally?

MR. JACKMAN: Who wants to speak to that?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: Can you ask the question again, Mr. Bennett?

MR. BENNETT: Yes, this is exclusive of teachers' pensions. So, I am

asking: Does the Department of Education fund the pensions and do that work, or

is it done by some other department of government?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: That is handled through the Department of Finance.

MR. BENNETT: Does that mean the Department of Education budget really

should have the cost of pensions added to show a true cost of education?

MR. JACKMAN: I am assuming so. I cannot be 100 per cent certain on that.

I do not know if either one of the staff but I can certainly find out for you.

MR. BENNETT: Many people are concerned about the pension deficit that we

have in the Province, including myself, and I think we are well advised to be

concerned.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. BENNETT: Has there been any consideration to having discussions with

the NLTA about having them administer their own pension and, ultimately, have

some sort of solvency in our pensions with respect to education?

MR. JACKMAN: I think right now that discussion, through the Department of

Finance, is being held and I will put it this way. I think unions, as well as

government, are very much aware of the issues that face pension. I cannot speak

to the discussions that Finance have had with NLTA but I think everybody is

aware of the concern that it has to be dealt with.

MR. BENNETT: Yes, because in some provinces the teachers' unions manage

their own pensions. They get, whatever it is, their payment and deposit it every

year. Clearly, at least I believe that our Province has to get our pension

liability under control.

MR. JACKMAN: Definitely.

MR. BENNETT: It is an iceberg we are going to hit.

MR. JACKMAN: As Finance Minister, just like you just said, I am concerned

about it just as you would be, and I think most people generally are.

MR. BENNETT: Minister, a little further down in the same category, it

says Supports to Deaf and Hard of Hearing.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. BENNETT: There is nothing there at all. Supports to Deaf and Hard of

Hearing

MR. JACKMAN: No, no, you are looking at the heading there, Supports to

Deaf and Hard of Hearing, then you have students, institutional schools, and so

on.

MR. BENNETT: Oh, I see. I understand.

Thank you.

MR. JACKMAN: Okay.

MR. BENNETT: Minister, on page 15.9, it deals with Language Programs.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. BENNETT: This is, "Appropriations provide for development and

management of the implementation of the French curriculum including French First

Language and French Second Language Programs and for special projects.

Expenditures are cost shared with the Federal Government."

We have a cut in Language Programs from $2.229 million to $1.343 million.

MR. JACKMAN: Which line are you at?

MR. BENNETT: Near the middle. It says Language Programs, the second last

line in that category.

MR. JACKMAN: It has gone from $2.2 million, you mean, down to $1.3

million.

MR. BENNETT: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: We have to go through the line items up above because what

we are looking at here is the total. For example, line 01 has gone from $696,000

down to $611,000. We have taken a position out of the department for that one.

For Transportation, we had an increase in that particular line because there

was an assessment, a French test that was administered a proficiency test that

was administered to 120 students, so some additional transportation costs were

incurred there.

The big one is line 10, Grants and Subsidies. We have fewer start-ups of

Intensive Core French and there was a reduction in funding for the recruitment

and retention of teachers at the Francophone school.

MR. BENNETT: Does that mean that there is less demand, or is it the same

demand and less money?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: I think what we have there, Mr. Bennett, is sufficient

to cover the needs.

MR. BENNETT: Okay, but we have dropped by about $1.2 million, which is

more than a quarter of last year's allocation. A 25 per cent drop seems to be a

lot, unless there is some change in demand.

MR. JACKMAN: There has been a reduction in length of some of the French

summer school programs. If you look at that we have taken out two positions

here, fewer start-ups of Intensive Core French I do not think there is less of

a demand and the length of summer programs, there is where we have a

reduction.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: I should add that the line here under federal revenue,

we are actually negotiating the agreement now with the official languages and

that is an estimate there, even though it is a reduction of $500,000,000 there,

that is an estimate and it is a 50-50 agreement. That is an estimate, but now we

had to make sure that we can match what we receive there. That is the OLE

funding.

MR. BENNETT: Minister, with respect to school busing school busing

likely will always be contentious. There is a complaint among school bus

operators, private operators, they receive less funding per unit or per bus than

boards are able to spend. Do you have any thoughts on how that could be

equalized? Can one be improved or can all go private or all go public? What are

your thoughts on that?

MR. JACKMAN: We do not have a finalized position on it yet. It is a

tender process when we go through private contractors, but we do have a report

that Deloitte is completing. We do not have the finalized report yet, and then

once that comes in, that will inform us.

The private operators have made representation to that group. Then from that

we will extract the information to see how we need to go forward.

MR. BENNETT: One of the concerns that I have heard from student groups,

teachers, and parents is that if the school board provides the bus then for

extra-curricular activities the cost is automatically covered. It is included

and the child does not have to pay anything;

whereas if it is a contractor, then

the child has to come up with money to pay for bus transportation. I do not know

if you are aware of that. It seems to be factual, and if that is a concern.

MR. JACKMAN: It would be a concern. I am expecting that out of this

report will come a number of issues, possibly that being one of them.

Representation has been sought from an array of people who have an interest in

this. I cannot speak to pre-judge what will come out of that report. I am

looking forward to this thing being finalized, and then we look at where we go

for the coming year.

MR. BENNETT: Minister, do you have a deadline in mind or an expected time

when we might receive that? Not very soon.

MR. JACKMAN: Soon, very soon no, I cannot give you an exact date. The

thing that I can say to you is that this is something that I am certainly not

looking to extend it and string it out into another year. Like you said, there

have been concerns that have been raised by the private operators. We have some

questions of our own. We know that every September there are issues that arise

around busing; therefore, the sooner we can get the report and address the

points then we will.

MR. BENNETT: Minister, one of the concerns was the school closure in St.

Lunaire-Griquet, which I am sure you are familiar with

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. BENNETT: is the travel for the children to St. Anthony and not

having cellphone service. Is there any consideration to maybe providing

satellite phones for buses that may be in areas where there is no cellphone

service?

MR. JACKMAN: I certainly would give it consideration.

CHAIR: Thanks, Jim.

Dale.

MR. KIRBY: Thanks.

I will move down to 2.1.02

CHAIR: 2.1.01?

MR. KIRBY: Yes, Assistance to Educational Agencies and Advisory

Committees. Now, Grants and Subsidies here have been reduced by almost $465,000.

I guess the first question I would have is who is being cut in 2013 and by how

much?

MR. JACKMAN: One group, for example, is the Council of Ministers of

Education for Canada, CMEC, and then another one is the Council of Atlantic

Ministers of Education and Training, the Federation of School Councils, as you

mentioned, and there is a cultural connections program that we have reduced the

budget to, but we still feel that there are adequate funds to meet the needs of

the other group. For example, the Council of Ministers of Education, we will

still be committing $100,000 to them. CAMET is still $119,000; the Federation of

School Councils, $25,000.

T.I. Murphy, we are still committing $691,000 to them; Encounters with

Canada, still $21,000 going to them. Even though there have been cuts to some

groups, as I outlined earlier we still feel there is adequate funds to meet the

needs of those groups.

MR. KIRBY: The Council of Ministers of Education for Canada, was the

grant to CMEC $100,000 was it $100,000 in 2012?

MR. JACKMAN: It would have been $103,600; we cut them by $3,600.

MR. KIRBY: Thirty-six hundred.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, $3,600.

MR. KIRBY: Three thousand six hundred dollars.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: The Canadian Educational Association, how much did they have

their grant reduced by?

MR. JACKMAN: The Council of Atlantic Ministers of Education and Training,

that is the CAMET group; I am missing what is the group that you ?

MR. KIRBY: The Canadian Education Association.

MR. JACKMAN: Is that CAMET?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: No.

MR. KIRBY: That was in the list of

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: That was last year, Mr. Kirby.

MR. KIRBY: So they received no funding on that?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: That is correct.

MR. KIRBY: They had their funding reduced by how much then, to zero from

how much?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: I do not have that right in front of me but I can get it

for you. I am thinking that might be close to about $30,000, but I will check on

that for you.

MR. KIRBY: What sort of service or support was provided to the people of

Newfoundland and Labrador for $30,000-odd or so by the Canadian Education

Association? What is their mandate and so on?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: Their mandate is to it is an educational group of

professional colleagues who would provide they do some research on things,

student attendance being one, engagement is another. So, a lot of it is

providing professional development for educators and some research.

MR. KIRBY: The Atlantic Provinces Education Foundation, are they no

longer receiving funding?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: Yes, the Atlantic Provinces is APSEA. They would be

found on a different budget line there. I am just going to find it under the

Student Support Services. That is the Atlantic Provinces Special Education

Authority on

MR. KIRBY: No, the Atlantic Provinces Education Foundation, they would

have received funding in 2012.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: That would be CAMET. It is now CAMET.

MR. KIRBY: It is now CAMET.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: Yes, and they would have continued to receive funding.

There is a reduction there of $1,200, I believe.

MR. KIRBY: A reduction of $1,200, okay.

Then in 2012 there were grants provided to women's institutes under this

line.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: My understanding is I think that has been changed to

AES. I do not think that is under us at this time.

MR. KIRBY: They are receiving their funding from AES now.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: I would not be able to speak to it, but it is not with

us at this time in Education.

MR. KIRBY: Okay. Do you know how much they received in the prior year,

2012, from the Department of Education?

MR. JACKMAN: We do not have that here now.

MR. KIRBY: You do not have that.

MR. JACKMAN: No.

MR. KIRBY: Would you be able to provide that to me?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, we could.

MR. KIRBY: The Federation of School Councils had a 17 per cent reduction

in their grant from the department. What was the rationale behind that? Because

I understand they had actually been looking for additional funding.

MR. JACKMAN: Well, I have had a couple of meetings now with the

Federation of School Councils. I wanted to take a look at what their membership

is and see how they are functioning because I think the role of school councils

is going to become even more important. I think if you have a good parent body,

then you talk about local representation, that is where you get local

representation.

I am looking at further meetings with them to see how they are going to

proceed. I am certainly willing to provide them with more supports, but I wanted

to just be more comfortable around their organization, their makeup, their

membership, and the quality of representation. So I am looking at follow-up and

discussions with them.

MR. KIRBY: Maybe it is just me, but it appears to me it would be

problematic for them to do more with less, especially in light of what the

concerns have been relayed to me in the past. As you are aware, they do have a

statutory responsibility. It is in legislation.

MR. JACKMAN: Well, what I want to do is I want to work with them to

ensure the effectiveness of the group as a statutory body and to ensure there is

representation across the Province. Like I said, if you are talking about having

local input, then this is the group we need to look at.

MR. KIRBY: I will be going out to their meeting, and I understand Mr.

Bennett is as well.

MR. JACKMAN: Well, that is good. You will be there to listen to my

speech. Make sure you are there.

MR. KIRBY: This will be one of the highlights, of course, of the meeting.

MR. JACKMAN: It definitely will be. I would not expect anything less.

MR. KIRBY: My experience, and it has been very limited, is that one of

the difficulties, because the Province's population is geographically dispersed

as it is, school councils have an inability to get their people out to some

extent. You think about travel, kilometres

MR. JACKMAN: Sure it is.

MR. KIRBY: - gas and accommodations and so on. They already have a

limited ability is really my point, but I will not belabour that.

Then there is the Canadian Education Network. They receive

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: That is another one from last year, Mr. Kirby. I do have

my list here now. That was not received funding this year, as well.

Just to correct something I said earlier, the two of them have similar names.

The Canadian Education Association was receiving $17,000, which did not receive

that this year, and the Community of Education Network was receiving $60,000,

and is not receiving that this year.

MR. KIRBY: What were they doing, the Community Education Network?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: My understanding is that was a group that was based out

of the Western School District, out on the West Coast. They were doing some

projects with the school district but not all of their projects were related

that way.

They had other funding groups as well, Mr. Kirby, and we had to look at what

was directly impacting our students; thus, when we were looking at which grants

to continue, that was one that we felt was not directly related to what we were

doing at the school there.

MR. JACKMAN: No. They were receiving funding from different departments.

They were not in the school per se; therefore, we decided that the $60,000 they

were receiving from ours, we did not renew it.

MR. KIRBY: Are they going to be defunct now? Is that starting in

September?

MR. JACKMAN: No, no, they are still operating.

MR. KIRBY: Are they getting any funding from government at all now?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: That is from which department?

MR. JACKMAN: I am not certain which department, I cannot recall. I can

certainly get that for you. They operate out of Stephenville.

MR. KIRBY: Okay. I think I have run out of time.

CHAIR: Yes.

Jim.

MR. BENNETT: Minister, one of the questions that have been posed to me by

people who are teachers, actually, is with the five board configuration. If you

were within a board, you were hired within a board, and you transferred within

the board. Will that change with the districts now? Will it be seen as just one?

MR. JACKMAN: It is a discussion we will be having with the NLTA, but I

expect it will.

MR. BENNETT: Because a concern, I suppose a two-way concern, one is job

mobility for people; however, within regions, particularly where it may be

remote, it can be very difficult to hire teachers.

MR. JACKMAN: This should enhance that.

MR. BENNETT: Maybe. However, if those teachers become more experienced

and then they move to the larger centres, then what happens is that the smaller

schools will always be a training ground for teachers. They will always have the

least experienced teachers. The most experienced teachers will go to the bigger

centres that, it could be argued, already have more advantages than the smaller

centres.

MR. JACKMAN: I consider myself a half decent teacher. I moved to one of

the rural spots and I stayed there.

MR. BENNETT: That may well be the case

MR. JACKMAN: We have often found that many people who have moved to

Labrador have stayed there.

MR. BENNETT: On an individual basis so you do not see any problem at

all with just having one hiring policy across the board instead of having the

districts?

MR. JACKMAN: I understand the fear. If you look at the model that we

moved with when we went to the present structure, we had a Burin Peninsula

board, we had a Bonavista Peninsula board, a Vista board, and then we had a St.

John's board. Then we went to one larger Eastern board and those issues were

worked out.

I would expect the same thing would happen here. I do think that it will

provide the remote areas of the Province to get teachers.

MR. BENNETT: Minister, the opposite of people going to a remote area and

staying is also true. My family moved in 1966 because the school principal was

transferred. The family moved from Daniel's Harbour to Corner Brook, the whole

family lock, stock and barrel. It was either that or we go to boarding school,

which simply was not an option in my family.

Generally, the students with more experienced teachers will get better

outcomes. Do you not agree?

MR. JACKMAN: Do you want to determine for me what a better teacher is?

MR. BENNETT: No, I said more experience and better outcomes. I did not

say better teacher.

MR. JACKMAN: I would think that right now in this Province our teachers

are all qualified; they are all given professional development in

outcome-oriented instruction. I am sure that we will always find, for a variety

of reasons, that there will be areas that will have better scores than others.

That is the reason for our assessments that we have happening in the Province.

I would hope that as a Department of Education and as a group of teachers and

educators generally, we strive for the best. I do not know, I am missing the

point maybe.

MR. BENNETT: Do I understand you to say that cohorts of teachers in a

one-year experience are just as good as the ten years experience?

MR. JACKMAN: I would encourage maybe that you should visit some of the

schools. In some of our remote areas we have teachers who have been there for

ten, twelve years, very experienced teachers. You may have some transient, and

once people become established in schools in our larger centres, but with

retirements, come opportunities.

MR. BENNETT: Are you then saying that there is no benefit to having a

teacher with experience over one with no experience?

MR. JACKMAN: I am certainly not saying that. I am saying that I believe

that across this Province we have an equal representation of experienced and

inexperienced teachers.

MR. BENNETT: Will it not be true that teachers will go to areas that are

less attractive as they define it to live and get experience, and move to

areas that are more attractive, being bigger and more urban.

MR. JACKMAN: You and I are having more of a philosophical disagreement

now, because I have been in a situation where I have had first-year teachers who

have come out, who are eager and determined and would be certainly on par with

teachers who have been there for a number of years. So, I cannot go down that

road. I just cannot go down that road.

MR. BENNETT: Minister, it is not a philosophical argument. What I am

asking is by having four boards, that means it is four pools, versus one, with

the increased mobility, that these smaller communities will suffer.

MR. JACKMAN: So then with the move from a Burin Peninsula board and a

Bonavista Peninsula board to combine with a St. John's board, you think that the

people on the Burin Peninsula and the Bonavista Peninsula have been

disadvantaged? I do not see it that way.

MR. BENNETT: Well, only the outcomes will determine and the Burin

Peninsula is more urbanized than a lot of the parts of the Province.

MR. JACKMAN: You move outside of Marystown and you will see. I have

schools in my district that have nine students I have one school. I have other

schools that would have fifty-seven to eighty-five and this kind of stuff. The

Burin Peninsula is no different than would be the other areas, and I would

invite you to go to St. Lawrence and go to Lawn and just see how many teachers

there are experienced teachers.

MR. BENNETT: So you think that isolation plays no role in where someone

chooses to live like Fogo Island or Little Bay Islands?

MR. JACKMAN: I think if you look at the global situation, we know that

things are moving towards a more urbanized society, but I can assure you that

I went to a drama festival this weekend in Lawn I would put the students on

that stage on a stage with any students in this Province.

MR. BENNETT: Minister, was the Poverty Reduction a strategy of the

one?

MR. JACKMAN: No.

MR. BENNETT: Do you think it should be?

MR. JACKMAN: In what light?

MR. BENNETT: I understand this Province has a Poverty Reduction Strategy

I do not know where the results are, but poverty is linked to losing schools,

rural schools. It has been linked in professional studies. I am simply asking:

Would you consider it worthwhile to look at the Poverty Reduction Strategy and

engage that part of government?

MR. JACKMAN: So you are saying that poverty is linked to losing schools?

MR. BENNETT: Absolutely, it is well documented.

The 2008 Canadian Senate Agriculture and Forestry committee report, called

Beyond Freefall, identifies school abandonment as the major contributor to the

cycle of rural poverty. So I am asking and you said no, the Poverty Reduction

Strategy has not been considered with this move.

MR. JACKMAN: I am missing your point somewhere. I am just missing the

point. If you can further explain the point to me, I might be able to debate it

with you, but I am just

MR. BENNETT: Minister, I am referring to a report by the Canadian Senate

that says school abandonment is a major contributor to the cycle of poverty. We

have a Poverty Reduction Strategy and I have asked if you have considered it and

you said no. The answer really is complete.

MR. JACKMAN: Fine.

MR. BENNETT: Minister, do you propose anything special to deal with

Labrador's special challenges in education?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, we recognize in the movement to the new board structure

that Labrador, especially the remoter areas of Labrador, needs to be taken into

consideration. Again, I will go back to the point that the strong presence that

we will have in Happy Valley-Goose Bay will be equal to as what we offer in

Corner Brook, as what we will offer in Gander, and as what we will offer on the

Avalon Peninsula.

Education in Labrador is not going to be diminished.

MR. BENNETT: Okay, I can pause.

CHAIR: Okay.

Dale, please.

MR. KIRBY: Thank you.

I just want to go back to where we were before Mr. Bennett began again. The

cultural connections, we are talking about, under those grants

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: You know where we are, right? Assistance to Educational

Agencies and Advisory how much is that in total, Cultural Connections?

MR. JACKMAN: The Cultural Connections, we still have $874,000 that will

be in there. That was around a million. So we are taking some $230,000, $240,000

out of it.

MR. KIRBY: Does Encounters with Canada fall under that?

MR. JACKMAN: No.

MR. KIRBY: It does not?

MR. JACKMAN: No.

MR. KIRBY: What did they get that is separate, Encounters?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, those would be the ArtsSmarts program, the Visiting

Artist Program.

MR. KIRBY: Okay. So ArtsSmarts does fall under this?

MR. JACKMAN: Under Cultural Connections.

MR. KIRBY: So that has been cut, and then there were this is what I

just sort of heard anecdotally, touring school arts programs, three programs

cut.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: Is that what it is? Is it programs or positions or ?

MR. JACKMAN: No, it is programs.

MR. KIRBY: What else falls under Cultural Connections? ArtsSmarts and

this touring school arts program

MR. JACKMAN: And we have a Visiting Artist Program.

MR. KIRBY: Visiting artist. Now, that is a visiting artist, where?

MR. JACKMAN: That is various artists who would make application, and then

once selected they would travel to some schools.

MR. KIRBY: Has that been cut as well?

MR. JACKMAN: It has been cut, yes.

MR. KIRBY: Entirely, is it?

MR. JACKMAN: No, no.

MR. KIRBY: No?

MR. JACKMAN: No.

MR. KIRBY: So you have reduced the amount of funding?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

Maybe this year I know last year I asked for a breakdown of all this and I

did not really get it. Maybe I asked and I was not as detailed as I would have

liked to be in my question, though. Is it possible for me this year, then, to

get a list well, basically get the list that you are reading from over there.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: I would like a list of the grants

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: of the organizations, but I would like to be able to compare

2012 to 2013, because the list that I got last year did not really reflect

MR. JACKMAN: We will give it to you, yes.

MR. KIRBY: Because I will get the list, I will not really belabour this

too much.

The T.I. Murphy Centre is funded under this. What was the change in funding

for the T.I. Murphy Centre?

MR. JACKMAN: None.

MR. KIRBY: There was not any change. So any reduction they have

experienced is from Advanced Education and Skills?

MR. JACKMAN: Another department, yes.

MR. KIRBY: Somewhere else.

What about the Learning Disabilities Association of Newfoundland and

Labrador, was there any change to their funding?

MR. JACKMAN: No.

MR. KIRBY: Okay, thank you.

I will move then to 2.1.03, Policy and Planning, and 01 Salaries. There is a

just over a $32,000 reduction in that line in 2013. What is happening here?

MR. JACKMAN: That is a maternity leave.

MR. KIRBY: Somebody is on maternity leave?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: Under 2.1.03.03, Transportation and Communications, there was

a significant under spending of funds there and now it has been cut

substantially over the previous year.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, it is across the department. We are looking at less

travel and less communications.

MR. KIRBY: Less communication in what respect? Do you mean less mail?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: The changes in the travel piece there under Policy and

Planning, there is a cycle for strategic planning for the school districts. We

are not at that critical point where we would need that extensive travel for our

people. That would be the drastic cut there. It would be tying into the off

years of the strategic planning cycle.

MR. KIRBY: For school districts?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: Yes, sorry, for school districts.

MR. KIRBY: It would seem to me there would be a need for an awful lot

district rather than four. That would seem to knock all that out of sorts now.

CHAIR: Minister.

MR. JACKMAN: Right now, like the deputy said, there is the strategic

planning of individual boards. As this new one comes on stream in the coming

year, not this calendar year, but as that new board gets in place, I expect to

see that back in the Budget next year.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

Then under 05, the same line, 2.1.03.05, Professional Services. There was

$22,500 under spent in the last year. What professional services did we not

avail of in 2012 that we had thought?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: There were a couple of areas there where we were

planning an evaluation and still deliberating that piece. So we are not ready

for that piece, an evaluation.

MR. JACKMAN: The line as well, part of this is going to be the review of

the transportation, the busing, the review that we are going to be paying for,

for this coming year.

MR. KIRBY: Is in that?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, it is in the $104,000 budgeted this year, $104,900.

MR. KIRBY: Who is the consultant who is doing the work?

MR. JACKMAN: Deloitte.

MR. KIRBY: Are you at liberty to disclose what it is they are being paid

for? What is Deloitte being paid?

MR. JACKMAN: It is $75,000.

MR. KIRBY: It is $75,000 for the busing review.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: Last year, under the next line, 2.1.03.06, Purchased Services,

under Policy and Planning.

There was $8,500 that went unspent. We are not talking office supplies here,

are we?

MR. STAPLETON: That is for printing of accountability documents and there

was just less need, and some restraint, where we did not need to we did not.

MR. KIRBY: So, fewer printed documents?

MR. STAPLETON: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: Is this because we are moving more towards electronic

communication?

MR. STAPLETON: Not in this particular case. There was just less need in

this particular year. It was lower.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

The next one is 2.2.01, Information Management and Special Projects. It used

to be Information Management and the CAP program.

Under 2.2.01.01, Salaries, here it is $124,200 less in 2013.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes. That is, again, two positions that are being taken out.

Two Industrial Officers, two positions, and a Technician III.

MR. KIRBY: That technician, is that an IT person?

MR. JACKMAN: Don.

MR. STAPLETON: That was a person who was in our registry. It would have

been an Information Management Technician, kind of like a librarian, for the

library services.

MR. KIRBY: The two other positions were Industrial Development Officers.

What sort of work would they have been engaged in?

MR. JACKMAN: (Inaudible) there was mistake there. It should have been

one, not two.

MR. STAPLETON: It was one Industrial Development Officer that was

reduced, not two.

MR. KIRBY: What sort of work were they doing?

MR. STAPLETON: That had to do with the federal CAP program and the

federal government cut back funding in that particular area. Then the Province

had to reduce the expenditures.

MR. KIRBY: Those two individuals were they laid off or did they retire?

MR. STAPLETON: One person actually found a job before this cut happened,

that was the Industrial Development Officer. The other person, they are of age

to retire. Yes, they were made redundant and have now gone in retirement. They

would receive their pension.

MR. KIRBY: Did this person take the package

CHAIR: Dale, excuse me, your time has expired. Can you hold that

question?

MR. KIRBY: Sorry, I will go back to this later.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Jim.

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible) answer that question.

MR. BENNETT: Sure.

CHAIR: Dale.

MR. KIRBY: Did this person take the package that the Minister of Finance

was shopping about?

MR. STAPLETON: They got a redundancy so they would have gotten more than

the package because they were laid off. That is the IM Technician.

MR. KIRBY: Oh.

MR. STAPLETON: They were given a redundancy because they were non-union,

non-management so they could not bump. They were given more than the package

because they got a redundancy.

MR. KIRBY: Okay, thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you, Dale.

Jim.

this vetted through the Province's rural lens? Government claims to apply a

rural lens to all decisions that affect rural parts of the Province. Was the

lens?

MR. JACKMAN: We have boards that are elected and that have trustees who

represent their constituents. These are the people who make decisions in terms

of our boards. They are the ones we consulted with.

MR. BENNETT: Did the boards make the decision to shut themselves down?

MR. JACKMAN: The board made some decisions around some of the things that

they felt could be implemented from their perspective, and then we as a

government, based on the information we have, decided to collapse the boards,

the executive component of it, into one board.

MR. BENNETT: There was no rural lens analysis done, as the government

says it does with rural decisions.

MR. JACKMAN: The rural lens in this case is applied to our working with

the board Chairs and the trustees.

MR. BENNETT: So is that written down anywhere?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, we have their submissions.

MR. BENNETT: Okay, and their submissions with respect to closing and what

the outcome would be?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, they looked at the satellite offices and where spaces

could be provided in schools. They brought forward a list of recommendations

from individual boards.

MR. BENNETT: Is a copy of that available?

MR. JACKMAN: We have the information over at the department. We are still

working through some of those proposals. At this particular point, I will not

release them.

MR. BENNETT: When do you expect they would be able to be released?

MR. JACKMAN: I think once we get our final decisions in place and we have

the opportunity to meet with the transition team. Then they work their way

through the piece. We will see then when we can release it.

MR. BENNETT: What reason do you have for refusing to release this

information?

MR. JACKMAN: Because we are looking at putting in place a transition team

who will have to work through details. I, right now, do not want to put

documents out there that will create more confusion. I would not accuse people

of political opportunities to put information out there. I do not want to at

this particular point until we have the transition teams taking a look at it.

I will go back to one of my statements I said previously. We will have this

transition team in who will make decisions in the best interests of students and

quality education. Therefore, we will let them deal with the information. Then

as we get further into it, if I feel the time is right, then we will release it.

MR. BENNETT: Was there a written submission from each board?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. BENNETT: Who sent the written submission? Was it the Director of

Education or somebody else?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, you had the Chairs who discussed with their trustees,

and then it was sent from the Chairs.

MR. BENNETT: So there is a written submission from the Chair of Eastern,

Nova Central, Western, and Labrador?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. BENNETT: That may or may not show up at some point?

MR. JACKMAN: That is right.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: I would just like to add that there was a Cabinet paper

that would have been prepared regarding the decision of the consolidation of the

school districts, which would have had a rural lens applied to it.

MR. BENNETT: When did these submissions come?

MR. JACKMAN: We got them around I cannot give you the exact date, it is

probably around the last week in February, somewhere around there.

MR. BENNETT: When were they requested?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: I can get the exact dates for you, Mr. Bennett, that

they were asked to do the similar exercise as other entities, and to submit

but I can get you that date. To be honest, I think it would have been early

February, maybe, when they submitted.

MR. BENNETT: So they were requested, obviously, before that.

MR. JACKMAN: As we said, we can give you the exact date.

MR. BENNETT: Were the requests done in writing?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: I met with the school districts and we also had

discussions with the Chairs.

MR. JACKMAN: We had several discussions with the Chairs a couple of

face-to-face meetings, and then some online conference calls with them.

MR. BENNETT: Not a written request.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: This was done through meetings with the districts.

MR. JACKMAN: I committed to the Chairs that I would engage them

throughout the process, which we did. No, there was not a written

MR. BENNETT: These meetings, where did the meetings take place?

MR. JACKMAN: A couple of them took place here in town, and the other ones

were through teleconference.

MR. BENNETT: Were there minutes of the meetings?

MR. JACKMAN: No.

MR. BENNETT: Was the Minister of Rural Development consulted regarding

the effect on rural parts of the Province by this change?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, as the deputy minister said, in the development of the

Cabinet paper, all departments were asked for input.

MR. BENNETT: Minister, I understand that this is the only Province in

Canada that does not have an Aboriginal curriculum program. Is that correct?

MR. JACKMAN: I will ask

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: We have a person in the Department of Education who

works with the Aboriginal groups. As you would know, the Inuit are actually in

our schools. The Innu, we work with them and we are working with them regarding

a memorandum for curriculum work with them, similarly with the Mi'kmaq; but we

do have a person who is dedicated, at the Department of Education, to work with

the groups.

MR. BENNETT: Is there written curriculum set forth for Aboriginal

children?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: I know that we have worked on some curriculum projects

with the Inuit and I can say that in our early learning initiatives we have

certainly worked with the groups to provide appropriate language-based posters

and things for them.

Regarding other initiatives in the department, we are looking at and I

think I will ask Brad Clarke, Director of Program Development, to speak further

on some of the initiatives we are planning regarding Aboriginal.

MR. CLARKE: There are several in the higher grades, and I am thinking

from seven to twelve. The curriculum is actually flexible enough to incorporate

Aboriginal culture, language, things like that of interest to each individual

group.

Down in the lower grades, again, the curriculum guide itself is flexible

enough to incorporate, but at those grades we have also been working with groups

to produce resources in Inuktitut, in their own language, very culturally

sensitive and relevant to the outcomes of that particular grade.

As well, there is another avenue that some groups have chosen to do what we

call local courses, design their own curriculum. I am thinking as an example the

Inuktitut language that is going on in Coastal Labrador for the Inuit, where it

would be designed, we would certainly review and make sure it is at a standard

and is sensitive to the students' needs at their age. That is part of their

efforts to resurrect their spoken language.

MR. BENNETT: When you say their efforts, does that mean you do not see it

as a departmental responsibility?

MR. CLARKE: No, quite the opposite.

Our Aboriginal consultant would be very involved in that process right from

the very beginning to implementing and evaluating, but it has been our

experience that the Aboriginal groups really want to be the leadership on this.

They bring us in and incorporate us. We want to meet their needs, their desires,

rather than sort of impose what we believe should be there. So that is my

phraseology about their wants.

MR. BENNETT: Has a course been developed and is there a textbook?

MR. CLARKE: I missed that second part of the question?

MR. BENNETT: Has a course been developed and is there a textbook?

MR. CLARKE: Yes. I am thinking of particular examples. The courses on

Inuktitut, yes.

CHAIR: Okay, Mr. Bennett.

Dale.

MR. KIRBY: I just wanted to go back to something earlier around the Arts

Smarts and these touring artists program. Do we have a sense of how many schools

are affected by cutting that program, or reducing funding, or cutting those

programs, I guess (inaudible)?

MR. JACKMAN: I do not, but I am certain we can find out how many that

would have been visited.

MR. KIRBY: Yes, last year.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: Do we know how many schools were visited last year?

MR. JACKMAN: I cannot tell you that offhand, but we can get it for you.

MR. KIRBY: So, I can follow up with you in writing and you can provide

that information.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, sure.

MR. KIRBY: Then, I guess the other thing I would be interested to know is

how many artists were engaged in providing services to that?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, you put that in your letter.

MR. KIRBY: Can we remember that, please? I am just talking to myself.

I want to go back to then where we were: 2.2.01, Information Management and

Special Projects. In fact, before I do that, Mr. Bennett, was asking questions

there and he was talking about transitional administration at the new supersized

district there. Is there a plan for a transitional group of trustees?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: Are they in place?

MR. JACKMAN: No. We are hoping to have them out rather quickly.

MR. KIRBY: Rather quickly, so there is no deadline yet?

MR. JACKMAN: No. We are looking at a Chair and then representation from

existing boards. That is what we are going now is finalizing those numbers, and

we will be contacting these individuals very shortly.

MR. KIRBY: Are you, as minister, or is the Department of Education

selecting a group of transitional trustees and the Chairs? Is that what you are

saying?

MR. JACKMAN: What we are going to do is ensure that there is

representation from the existing boards. We have not finalized yet how we will

do the selection at this particular point.

MR. KIRBY: Has any thought been given to having those trustees select

amongst themselves? It would seem if they were elected themselves rather than

someone else externally doing the selecting, wouldn't it be most democratic to

allow them to decide who I am not suggesting they play a game of survivor or

anything like that, that they just have sort of a simple secret ballot perhaps

or that they just come up with whatever.

MR. JACKMAN: We are looking at that. We are looking at whether we have

somebody independent, but that has not been finalized yet.

MR. KIRBY: We reap what we sow, that is all I will say.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: So, 2.2.01, Information Management and Special Projects, 04,

Supplies, it was under spent last year and cut in half this year.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, somebody will answer that for you.

MR. EVANS: That is simply just an adjustment. It was part of an

expenditure management exercise we undertook this year. As result of federal

funding cuts to the Community Access Program, we were forced to look at similar

restraints on the provincial side, so it is more rightsizing of the budget.

MR. KIRBY: So, you have fewer people and less activity so you have less

need for supplies? Is that what it is?

MR. EVANS: That would be correct, yes.

MR. KIRBY: Then, under Property, Furnishings and Equipment, 2.2.01.07,

there is no budget for that this year. This is along the lines of the same

rationale then of the previous question.

MR. EVANS: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: You have enough. Well, that is good.

The Grants have been eliminated entirely. Was that $725,000 provided entirely

by the federal government? The budgeted amount last year was $725,000 and that

was

MR. JACKMAN: There has been a $550,000 cut through the federal program,

the CAP program. The $275,000 that you see there was the amount that was

provided by government to maintain the connectivity. Connectivity exists in

this was provided to library and non-library sites. What we are expecting is

that fund will not be continued but connectivity exists in these sites, so we

expect that connectivity will be maintained.

MR. KIRBY: The Province has eliminated its share of the funding as well.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: I guess there was some question around the time whether the

Province would kick in the federal share to maintain the programs so this did

not happen.

MR. JACKMAN: What we did it costs $1,500 per site for connectivity and

that is what that $275,000 is for.

We provide funds to our provincial library board and they have connectivity;

therefore, we anticipate that that connectivity will remain there.

MR. KIRBY: You are hoping that public libraries will maintain the

connectivitiy.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: They have less money and you are hoping they are going to be

able to do more with less.

MR. JACKMAN: Well, I think if you look at where public libraries are

moving, technology is becoming more and more a part of public libraries;

therefore, we do expect that connectivity will be there.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

I am going to go to 3.1.01, Teaching Services. Of course, this is really a

substantial portion of the department's budget.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: How many teachers is going to be lost through retirements or

how many are going to retire and not be replaced?

MR. JACKMAN: How many are going to be retired? We are expecting just

about 550, if they are going to retire

MR. KIRBY: Five hundred and fifty.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: They are not going to be replaced.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: No, they are eligible to retire, but the number of units

out of the system would be the 142 plus the eighteen from decline, so 160 units

is what is taken out.

The idea of the retirements is that there are that many eligible, thus we are

not expecting teacher layoff.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

Under Grants and Subsidies, School Boards, we have $4.2 million less in 2013.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: Are you able to itemize then

MR. JACKMAN: One of the things is there is going to be increased costs as

teachers move up in the pay scale; that will be a portion of it. Then the moves

that we have made in the administration piece and the learning resource, the

equivalent to 142 units less.

MR. KIRBY: This reflects the reduction in the ratio I guess it is

really an increase in the number and the ratio for learning resources and for

administrative support for the principals and vice-principals.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes. Again, we are not expecting that there will be teacher

layoffs.

MR. KIRBY: You are not expecting that? So, it is not going to happen or

you are not expecting it to happen?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, we can never guarantee anything with 100 per cent

certainty, but we are not expecting it. You will hear some teachers who will be

displaced for a period of time because you will see a natural progression of

bumping rights and whatnot, but we are not expecting any teachers to be laid

off.

MR. KIRBY: Just out of curiosity, because I did this sort of work in a

previous life when I worked with the Government of Ontario in a similar

department, when you are doing that modeling when it comes to seniority levels

and step levels and cost per person, are you modeling it or do you have the

exact numbers? Do you know

MR. JACKMAN: How many teachers are at what pay scale?

MR. KIRBY: You have all data and you work with more or less the exact

MR. JACKMAN: Yes. Pay is determined by qualifications.

MR. KIRBY: Because all of those payrolls are being processed by your

department, you are able to monitor it closely then.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: Good.

Am I out of time, or would you like to continue for another ten minutes?

CHAIR: You are out of time, Dale. Sorry.

MR. JACKMAN: I have to take a five minute.

CHAIR: The minister needs a three-minute break, so we will go three

minutes and we will try to get back

MR. JACKMAN: It is okay for you fellows; you can step out.

CHAIR: We are working away until noon, so can we just be quick?

Three minutes, Minister.

Recess

CHAIR: Jim, I think you are up. You are on the clock.

MR. BENNETT: One strong critic of the math system in the Province is Dr.

Sherry Mantyka and she says the department has been resistant to listening to

the deep problems that the university has been experiencing with graduates from

the education system in mathematics. Do you agree with that criticism?

MR. JACKMAN: No.

MR. BENNETT: Why not?

MR. JACKMAN: I think we made major advances in mathematics, we have

streamlined our curriculum, and there is ongoing work as it relates to

mathematics.

MR. BENNETT: Isn't it true that our mathematics scores have been

declining for the last half a dozen years under this government?

MR. JACKMAN: I have to dig up all of the stats now, but I think our

students are doing better now than they have done before.

MR. BENNETT: So you dispute the numbers put out by the Programme for

International Student Assessment?

MR. JACKMAN: No.

MR. BENNETT: So those numbers are lower, so how can you say our students

are doing better?

MR. JACKMAN: How do you use assessments? That is the thing about it. Any

assessment that we do, whether provincial, national or international, is to

inform instruction. If we look at the overall statistics over the last number of

years, if you are looking at one statistic, then that is not where I am. I would

look at a number of statistics, that being provincial plus international, and

our students are doing better.

MR. BENNETT: Minister, the PISA scores in math increased from 2000 to

2003 and declined in 2006 to 2009, straight line down. The report which is

essentially validated by Statistics Canada says that this is a statistically

significant decline. Do you disagree with that?

MR. JACKMAN: I have heard you say that before.

MR. BENNETT: Have you seen the report?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, I have.

MR. BENNETT: You do not agree that the numbers have gone down.

MR. JACKMAN: I can agree on these particular numbers. Would you agree

that they have gone up in some other areas?

MR. BENNETT: No, they have not gone up; however, they have declined.

MR. JACKMAN: No, you have dug into one particular area and certainly,

yes, you have found an area where our students have done not as well in this

particular area. What should that do? That is the purpose of assessment and

evaluation, that we identify an area where we need to address. Therefore, as a

result of that assessment, that is exactly what we do.

MR. BENNETT: What have you done to address that decline in math scores?

MR. JACKMAN: I have just outlined that to you. First off, the assessment

identifies an area that we need to work on. That is exactly, as I have already

said, the purpose for evaluation measures: you identify an area and now you

start to work to address the area of concern.

MR. BENNETT: Minister, you say you do not agree with Dr. Mantyka?

MR. JACKMAN: What?

MR. BENNETT: You do not agree with Dr. Mantyka's finding?

MR. JACKMAN: Look, if we have an area of concern, if it is identified by

the university as a concern, we are more than willing to work with that

particular individual. Would I dispute that she is having some students who are

having difficulty with mathematics? No, I would not dispute that. All of that

plus the assessments are what inform our PD and then inform instruction as we

move forward.

MR. BENNETT: Minister, some years ago this government committed $11.3

million to a new Excellence in Math Strategy.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. BENNETT: Can you produce a copy of the strategy?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, we can.

MR. BENNETT: Can you produce the results at the beginning and the results

at the end?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: The Excellence in Math Strategy was to take us from the

curriculum when we started to implement the WNCP, the Western and Northern

Canadian Protocol, into the system. Actually, this coming year will be the last

year that we will be implementing the Grade 12 courses into this particular

curriculum. The Excellence in Math Strategy had many components to it over the

years, and there was a lot of money pumped into that to assist with that

implementation.

One of them would have been with the numeracy support teachers who were put

in place to assist teachers with their mathematics knowledge, especially in the

K-6 grades as that was implemented through. We have some in the higher grades as

well. That was an intensity at that time to provide as the curriculum was being

implemented. They have done great work with teachers. There has been a lot of

work done in that model to show that teachers feel that there has been a great

impact on their knowledge.

We have changed some of those units to literacy numeracy as well, in a very

structured model that has been evaluated and with very, very good results. That

is one of the pieces of the Excellence in Math Strategy that we would be able to

comment on. As I said, this is the final year we are coming into now, which is

the Grade 12.

There are many different components. There were math promotions that we went

through during that time, as well, to get students talking about math, playing

games, math literature, involving math in everyday life, and having parents

involved in those activities. There were some parent brochures done as well of

how to help their child in their numeracy literacy. There were some pamphlets

done.

MR. JACKMAN: As the math curriculum was developed, we recognized there

was an outcry from the public, parents and teachers, that we had gone too far.

So a new curriculum was developed to find a balance. An important component of

that was the parent component.

MR. BENNETT: Minister, for how many years has this program now run?

MR. JACKMAN: How many years has it run?

MR. BENNETT: Yes, since it started.

MR. JACKMAN: It was started in 2008.

MR. BENNETT: Do you have the math scores at the beginning and the math

scores today?

MR. JACKMAN: We have math scores that we would have gotten from the type

of assessments that you have mentioned.

MR. BENNETT: So are you able to provide the math scores at the beginning

and the math scores today?

MR. JACKMAN: We will provide you with the reports we have available to

us.

MR. BENNETT: Thank you.

Minister, there was a commitment made by your government a number of years

ago to reduce the age of school buses. Quite a number of them are still more

than ten years old. The commitment was to move toward having them less than ten

years old.

Can you tell us how that is done?

MR. JACKMAN: Before I go on to something specific, it was not ten years.

I believe it was twelve, wasn't it?

OFFICIAL: Twelve.

MR. JACKMAN: It was twelve years, not ten years.

We have been working with, in particular, the private operators to ensure

that. We have met them, myself and Minister Davis when he was in Service

Newfoundland and Labrador. Now Minister McGrath has met with them as well. I

will get Don to speak a little bit further to that, but we are working with the

association to have those things in place.

MR. BENNETT: How many school buses now are in operation in this Province

that are more than twelve years old?

MR. STAPLETON: How many are more than twelve years old, did you say?

MR. BENNETT: Yes.

MR. STAPLETON: There are none that are allowed to transport children that

are older than twelve years.

MR. BENNETT: You said none that are allowed, but are there any that are

more than twelve years old?

MR. STAPLETON: No, there are not any.

MR. BENNETT: Does the Department of Education have any view on whether

school buses should be equipped with seatbelts?

MR. JACKMAN: We have not gone there. I suppose you can look at the

research either way, but we have not decided to move there.

MR. BENNETT: I understand from some school bus operators that some

operators do not bother with buses they just use minivans in order to satisfy

the contract. Do you have any information in that respect?

MR. JACKMAN: All I can say to you is there are contacts that are set out

and agreed upon and I would expect that the contractors are meeting what is set

out in their agreement. If you have individual cases where that is so, I would

appreciate having them.

CHAIR: Dale.

MR. KIRBY: Thank you.

I was forgetting to point out that I am from the great historic district of

St. John's North. I think everybody is getting the point now: Thimble Cottage,

O'Brien's Farm, Freshwater Valley, et cetera. That is for another time. Another

committee, I think tourism and culture.

I wanted to ask I skipped over it because I wanted to confer with our staff

person about this item under Information Management and Special Projects. Thi