VOL. 2 PRELIMINARY l!'l-IEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSE:I"J3LY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. TUESDAY, MARCH 25, 1980 NO. 17

March 25, 1980 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : MR. SPEAKER: DR. J. COLLINS: Ta.pe 608 EC- 1 Order, please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS The hon. the Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker 1 I have the honour to inform the hon. House that I intend to present the Budget on Friday of this week. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. D. JAMIESON: Hear, hear! ORAL QUESTIONS The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. I am back to my favourite subject with the hon. the Minister of Finance, given his most recent statement with regard to Petrocan' s interest in Come By Chance.

I believe the report was that there was some request by Petro-Canada to do an inspection of the facility. Is this just a casua.l once-over lightly - I mean, they have already been out there on a couple of occasions to the best of my knowledge - or can we now expect that Petro-canad.a is going to do a tho:cough examination of the physical facilities, something of a very comprehensive nature that will give them a clear picture of what kind of a facility it is and how they Jllight be able to make use of it? In other words, what is the current state of play? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. J.

COLLINS : Mr. Speaker, hon. members will recall that Petro-canada re-established contact with the receiver I think something like six weeks ago - MR. D. JAMIESON: Yes. DR. J. COLLINS: - and since that time they have had ongoing conversations. Our understanding is that during those conversations 1 they proposed to the receiver for passage to ECGD that Petro-Canada would like to do an in...c!epth inspection rather than just a visitation. 1603

March 25, 1980 Tape 608 EC - 2 DR. .J. COLLINS: Some consultants for Petro-Canada have already done a visitation to the refinery, but ow:: understanding is that Petro-Canada wished ECGD to agree to allow them to do a much more detailed inspection than can be done just by visitation and they have put a proposal, we understand, to ECGD in that regard. MR. D. JAMIESON: MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : of the Opposition. MR. D. JAMIESON: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary.

A supplementary, the hon. the Leader This continues to be my difficulty in terms of the planning or progress - I hope I can call it progress - with regard to the project. In other words, the hon. the minister has now said once again that the relationship appears to be almost exclusively between Petro-Canada and ECGD. And I understand if they were a no~l, interested buyer and we were talking about a normal bankrupt situation, that would be the case,, but earlier the minister indicated, and I was glad to hear him say so, that the government was now taking a much more active interest.

In the absence of the Minister of Industrial Development (Mr. L. Barry), perhaps the Minister of Finance (Dr. J. Collins) could tell me whether, in fact, the role is still on the part of the Newfoundland Government a passive rola,or whether they are actively encouraging and assisting in every way they can, Petro-Canada 1 and I usa them because they are the ones who are front and centre right now 1 to 1604

March 25, 1980 Tape No . 609 so - 1 MR. D. JAMIESON: become involved in this? Iri other words, Mr. Speaker, to the hon. ~~e minister,is it just a question of saying , ~It is a relationship with ECGD and we will wait and see what comes out o! it," or is the Government of Newfoundland saying, "We would like to see Petrocan involved in this particular project, , and we are prepared to, in a sense, hold their hand?" Because there are a number of things involved,as the hon. the minister will know,with regard to other than ECGD which might very well have to be part and parcel.

I am thinking of the federal involvement in the wharf facilities, I am thinking about the environmental report of last year, and I suppose in

summary I could ask the minister if in fact either his department or people in Industrial Development are indeed vigorously pursuing and encouraging and assisting Petrc-Canada to become involved? MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : The hen. the Minister of Finance. DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker , I do not wish this to be thought of as a cop-out but I wonder if the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. D.

Jamieson) will permit me to make this observation: During the Budget Speech there are usually reviews done of various sectors of the economy and various developments that are 1mderway or government inteJlds to get underway and Come by Chance clearly is that sort of thing and it would be covered in the Budget Speech.

Now, as I say, I do not want this to so1md as thouqh I am coping out, but :r think it would really be more appropriate and be 1110re enlightening if :r could leave a further statement to the Budget Speech when one will e:xpeet to lay out in some detail the facts that we have and :r think that the hen. the Leader of the Opposition would be more satisfied with that precess. MR. D. JAMIESON: I have waited this long, a couple of 1110re days, I guess, we can wait. MR. SPEJU(ER: The hen. member for Grand Bank. 1605

!~arch 25, 1980 Tape ~o. 609 so- 2 MR. L. THOMS: Thank you, Mr. Speak~r. I have a question I would like to direct to the Minister of Health (Mr. w. Bouse). testerday When I questioned the Minister of Justice (Mr. G.

Ottenheimer) in connection with the Haqan case and I referred to the Haqan case and what bappened in that situation, on Janua:ey 5th, 1979 one Ross Goodyear was released fro111 the Waterford Hospital, immediately drove to Brool!;field ., J!Onavista Bay, where he obtained a shotgun and shot his wife aJiQ killed her• My question is, if I may ask the ques .tion, in view of those two cases that have been cited in this bon. Bouse these last two days, is the Minister of Health prepared to request the Minister of Justice to order a public inquiry under the Public Inquiries Act? 1606

March 25, 1980 MR. SPEAII:ER (Butt) : MR. W. HOUSE: Tape No. 610 EL - 1 The hen. the Minister of Health. Mr. Speaker, on an o=asion on television a couple of days ago, I had stated that we were looking at that particular Hagan case and that we were awaiting the outcome of a magisterial inquiry - a public court inquiry, I guess, is the right term now- and the same thing was stated yes­ terday by the Minister of Justice(G. Ot~enheimer) and that still stands in that particular case. And I think the Minister of Justice did outline that there is ample scope in a magisterial inquiry to lock at a fair number of aspects.

We are waitin9 on that. The other case, I had just recently heard of this, as a matter of fact, and I am going to be discussing that with officials but there has been no decision and I cannot say what we will do in that particular case. I want to point out that most of - we look at the Waterford Hospital:~ the admissions and the discharges of the Waterford Hospital, of course,are medical decisions and it is pretty well governed exclusively by the Mental Health Act, which was a new act - well, it was a new approach, I guess- wflich was passed in this House in June of 1971.

And as has been pointecbout by the administration, it is not really an administrative decision. But I will just take the question under advisement and discuss it with both the Minister of Justice and,of courae,officials of my department and the Waterford Hospital. MR. L. THOMS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : A supplementary, the hon. Member for Grand Bank. MR.. L. THOMS: so- tiale ago, I asked a queation in the Houae in connection with the pilychiatriat wbo ~d hit the patient.

At that time I was informed the RMA were inveatiqatinq the incident, that the hospital board was investigatinq the incident. ts tbe llinister 1607

March 25, 1980 'l'ape No. 610 EL - 2 MR. L. THOMS: in a position now to say what the results of these investigations were, ana whether he is prepared to make it public? MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : The hon. the Minister of Health. MR. W. HOOSE: It was an in-hospital board report. I have not seen the report, but I do understand that Dr. Paulse is back 1110rltinq at the Hospital. I have not seen the report. It is not 'llf1 report and o:bviously I cannot indicate whether I could make it public or not. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : The hon. the Member for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY : Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Fin.nce, Sir. some time aqo the Deputy Minister ,of Fin;mce aad.Colllptroller of the 'l'reasury resiqnecl under SOllie peculiar circiDIStances. And what I want to know now is if a replacement bsl:been found for the Deputy Minister of Fin;mce ;mcl , if so 1 wocld 1608

March 25, 1980 Tape No. 611 DW - 1 MR. S. NEARY: the hon. gentleman tell us if the appointment has been made? MR. SPEAKER. (Butt) DR. J. COLLINS: The hon. Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, I am not certain what peculiar circumtances the hon. member is referring to. The former Deputy Minister of Finance did indeed resign from his post.!hortly after that we undertook a nation-wide advertising programme AN HeN. ~~R: (Inaudible) the local prefer- ence.· DR. J. COLLINS: Local preference was not ezcluded by any manner of :means and if any local person wants to apply he is ·uost welcome to do so.

But it was a nation- wide advertising campaign. we have had in a considerable number of applications and there will be a process of reviewing these and making the decision set up in the near future. MR. S. NEARY: Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: A supplementary qaeation, Mr. A supplementary, the hon. member Mr.

Speaker, under the Financial Administration Act in the eventr that a vacancy occurs i as Deputy Minister of Finance or comptroller of the treasury under the great seal of Newfoundland 1 it is incumbeat:upon the minister to delegate the responsibility of comptroller of the treasury so that the public treasury will be adequately protected by someone else, Has the minister delegated this authority to anybody 1a~~is department? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Finance. 1609

March 25, 1980 Tape No. 611 DW - 2 DR. J. COLLINS: Yes~r. Speaker, one of the assistant Deputy Ministers, specifically Mr. Bernard Carew,has been appointed Acting Deputy Minister and he is also fulfilling the role en an interim basis of comptroller. MR. S.NEJ!.R!: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Butt): A final supplementary, the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman indicated that a nation-wide advertising campaign had been carried on to find a Deputy Minister of Finance.

I would like to ask the minister if it is not possible to find a Deputy Minister of Finance right here in Newfoundland? The government are· taking of preference of Newfoundlanders in the oflshore - MR. L. THOMS: Newfoundlanders first. MR. S. NEARY: - Newfoundlanders first, that is right,on the offshore regulations and the same thing applied in the Opper Churchill.

Does the minister not feel that we can find a Deputy Minister of Finance either locally or is there somebody alzeady in the department who can do ~ that job and if not, if the answer is 'No' and I would assume the answer should be 'Yes~ but if it is not would the hon. gentleaan tell us after the applications that come in as a result of this nation-wide advertising campaign, if it is narrowed down, ~how many applicants will be brouqht to · Newfoundland at public expense and how much expenses will they be allowedr you know, will be allocated to bring them in here for interviews and so f~cth? -----· .I 1610

March 25, 1980 Tape No. 612 NM - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. speaker, the hon. gentleman has asked quite a number of penetrating questions there and I hope I can answer them fully. Firstly, in regard to whether a Newfoundlander could fill this post, I sincerely hope so. I do not see why a Newfour.dlander could not. We undertook the nation-wide programme for two reasons, Mr. Speaker.

Firstly, it is a very senior post in the Public Service and we felt that the Province would be best served by our looking over the whole field and attempting to get the ver1 best man available to us. The second reason was that whoever did get it, local person or otherwise, whoever did get the post,it would be quite clearly visible then that they got it in the best of rights; it was not from a small field that they were picked but that they were picked from a very large field.

So that whoever got the post, and,as I say 1if it happened to be a local person there would be no doubt that that person fully justified getting it because he would have been up, or she would have been up against a nation-wide competition. In regard to how many will be interviewed, I am afraid I cannot answer that at this time. A review mechanism for the applications will be set up and I suppose it will be up to the members of that mechanism - MR. NEARY: applications. DR. J. COLLINS : (Inaudible) will be closed for No, not strictly speaking.

There was no closing date on the applications •. we decided to leave it sort of open ende~ fv~ ~~e reason that we wanted to make sure that any worthy applicants would have every opportunity of applying . . ...... MR. NEARY: Have you gone outside of canada as well? DR. COLLINS: Pardon? MR. NEARY: Have you gone outside of Canada? 1611

March 25, 1980 DR. COLLINS : MR. NEA..'U': DR. COLLINS: Tape No. 6U Nl1 - 2 We have aavertis'ed outside of Cailada - (Inaudible) interjection (inaudible) . No, I am sorry. That is incorrect-. We advertisea in Canadi.an papers. Now some of these papers clearly Dli.ght have gone outside of Canada 1but we did not specifically go into foreign papers. And in regard to the number of people who might be brought to the Province at public expense, again I cannot answer that. It will aepend .. on the reviewing committee, how many they see fit to bring for interview. MR. SPEAKER . (Bu,tt) : ,MR.

BENNE'l"r: The hon. member for St. Barbe. Mr.. Speaker, lily question is directed to the .Minister of Transportation and Communications.

In view of the ever increasing traffic flow across the Bonne Bay area and the expansion of Gras Marne National Park, and in view of the fact that the existing dock facilities at Woody Point are only half as long as the boat that operates there creating immense difficu1ty for the traffic flow, I am wondering if the minister could give s0111e indication at this til!le how high on the priority list in the upcoming budget might the upgrading, or the replacing of the facilities at Woody ~oint for the ferry landing? 1 61 2

March 25,1980 Tape No. 613 AH-1 ~~.SPEAKER (Butt): The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. M.."'.BRETT: Mr. Speake~, it is the same answer to that question as the answer I gave yesterQay with respect to ferries. The hon. member is aware that we have an in-house committee looking at all the ferry services in the Province and it includes that particular ferry and until such time as that committee reports I am unable to say what will happen to any ferry system in the Province. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. The hon. member for St. Barbe. MR.

BENNETT: I was not here yesterday so I missed that but just for the record I want to be sure , ~rr. Speaker, that the minister makes sure that this particular one in the Bonne Bay area, which has been in limbo for a few years;so I understand, it has been shelved, it has been put back, has been delayed and I would certainly like to see priority given to that one because there is quite a heavy traffic flow and it is in a tourist oriented traffic flow within the National Park boundaries. So I would like to ask the minister will he then be sure that one, that ferry specifically gets priority? MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR.BRETT: To be quite honest, Mr. Speaker, I cannot guarantee the hon. member that that particular ferry will receive top priority. I am sure that the people on St. Brendan's, the people on Fogo Island and other people who live on islands would not be very pleased if I indicated that that particular ferry was top priority. No, I am sorry, I cannot give the hon. member that guarantee. I certainly cannnt. MR. SPEAKER: The hou. member for St. Mary's-The Capes. MR. HANCOCK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have a question for the ~inister of Transportation and Communications also. In light of what happened today in Mount carmel where 150 parents from the communities of North Harbour, Colinet and Haricot picketed the schools so subseqently there was no school in those communities today because they felt that the 1613

March 25,1980 MR. HANCOCK: Tape No.6l3 AH-2 road conditions were too treacherous to send their kids over; and rightly so, but also we had a meeting a couple of weeks ~go with the minister pertaining to the bridge, the Rocky Harbour Bridge, which was built in 1924. Can the minister assure this House that an inspector has been sent out or when will an inspector be sent out to inspect that bridge? MR. SPEJI.KEE,: The hon. the Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR.

BRETT: The same day that the group from the · hon. member's district visited my office, that same day I asked my Deputy Minister if an inspection had been carried out recently then to see that one was carried out. I do not know if the engineers have actually gone up but if they have not they have been instructed to do so 1 unless one was done quite rece_!!-!=lY. If not, then I would assume they will be going up shortly. MR. HANCOCX:: MR. SPEJ'..KER: st. Mary's-The capes. MR. HANCOCK: A supplementary. A supplementar}r. The hon. member for Mr.

Speaker, as far as I know., and the people in the area, the bridge .has not been inspected for the last four or five years and to look at the bridge it looks as if it is ready to fall down any second. It istoo late to send an inspector up there when there are sixty or seventy kids at the bottom of ~he bridge so I would ask tbe minister if he will look into the matter seri,ously and see if he can get an inspector up there within the next twenty-four hours,if possible. MR. SPEAKER: and CpJIIIIIWlications. MR. BRETT: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: for La.Poile. The hon. the Minister of Transportation Yes, Mr. Speaker.

A supplementary. A Supplementary. Tl:).e hon. the member 1614

March 25, 1980 Tape 614 EC - 1 MR. S • NEARY : Further to the point the hon. gentleman raised, Sir, would the minister indicate to the House what extraordinary steps the goverrunent are taking to cope with the road conditions in this Province at the present time, which are the worst since Confederation? MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : and Communications. MR.. C. BRETT: The hon. the Minister of Transportation Extraordinary? I de not know if there are any extraordinary measures being taken, Mr. Speaker.

We have all our staff and all our equipment working every day to try to keep the roads passable, and people being laid off have .absolutely nothing to do. We are doing all that we can and I suppose that is all that is expected of anybody. MR.. F. ROWE: MR. SPEAKER: Trin.i.ty- Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE: A supplementary , Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. the aaember for Mr. Speaker, the Kinister of Transportation -ntioned that he has all the equipment working and all the manpower working that he can.

Haw widespread is the situ&tion throughout the Provi...'\ce that we have, for example, in the Heart 1 s Content depot, four aaachines with three broken down, four sand trucks with two broken down, and we have C&plin Cove, which is a suburb of Rant 1 s Harbour, if you will, presently baing flooded out because of lack of ditching in that particular .-rea? MR. G. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAltER: IUid Communications • Q~ G. PLIGH'l': MR. C. BRE'rr: the Island. SOME BON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAJ:ER: MR. C.

BRETT: Island-ide 1 rampant. 'lhe hon. the Min.i.ater of TransportAtion -Right across the Island. 'lhe hen. -..tier is correct, right .-cross Oh, ah! Order, please! That is correct. And it is exactly what one would expect when that 111achi.nery had to work almost around the clock 1615

March 25, 1980 Tape 614 EC - 2 MR. C. B:RE'l"l': for almost t"WO months. So I make no apoloqies to the hon. member or hon. members. Machinery is broken down; and what machinery is broken down, we are doing our best to repair it. And we will continue to do our best to get it out and, as I indicated, keep the roads passable. MR. F. ROWE: A further supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : A further supplementary, the bon. the member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. F. !lOWE: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that about three-quarters of the machi::~.ery is broken down in this particular depot,and we are facing serious flooding in the Province out there in Caplin Cove, would the minister undertake to get some private machinery into that particular community to do the required ditching? ~EAKER: The hon. the Minister of Transportation and Communications • MR. c. B:RE'l"l': Mr. Speaker, the minister does not have to undertake anything. The staff have the authority, Mr.

Speaker, if it is necessary, to hire extra eqldi'JII&nt - in the case of emergency, to do it - they do not have to come to the minister or anybody else. They can go and do it when it is necessary. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Bonavista North (Mr. L. Stirling), followed by the han. the member for - MR. J. HODDER: Mr.. Speaker, a short supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: Does the bon. gentleman wish to yield? MR. L. STIRLING: Agreed. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Port au Port, a supplUI&Jltary. MR. J. HODDER: Mr.

Speaker, I would just uk the Minister of Transportation and Coawnie&tions· to explain why is it that this is the only province in the Atlantic region - and, of course, we have a particular type of weather here - why this is the only province that does DDt annaunce half load limits on -our Province • s hiqhways? U you look 1616

March 25, 1980 Tape 614 EC - 3 MR. J. HODDER: at the transportation report that comes out and is circulated at least to all the members in this House at least I get a copy - which deals with the different provinces in the Atlantic region, each one of them has already had 1 61 7

March 25, 1980 Tape No. 615 ow - 1 MR. J. HODDER: half load limits put on their roads but this Provinces does not, Could the minister explain why that is? MR. SPEAKER (Butt): The bon. the Minister of Trans- portation and Communications. MR. C. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, half load limits are placed on our highroads at certain times of the year . MR. J. HODDER: It is never announced. MR. C. BRETT: Yes, Mr. Speaker, they are, they are always announced because there is always a fuss because usuallt ~ there are people who do not want them on and there are another group who do.

But unless there has been some recent change that I am not aware of 1there are certain times of the year . when half load limits or whatever are put on certain highways in the Province. MR. :&. STIRLING: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Bonavista North. MR. L. STIRLING: I am inclined to ask a supplementary question. ~Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) •nd it is a subject that Mas not been cleared up to my satisfactton.

The minister may have been under the impression that fishermen who were fired off the Fisheries Loan Board had been notified 1 but aspe ; found o~in Wesleyville they have not been notified and I now have a letter from another member of that Board. Can the ~inister of Fisheries now c_onfirm whether or not those rishermen who have been fired fromthe Fisheries Loan Board will be advised? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisher- ies, 1618

March ·.25, 1980 Tape No. 615 ow - 2 MR. J. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman seems to be persistent in indicating that the fishermen were fired from the Fisheries Loan Board. I do not know why but I will not get involved in reasons why after his performance in Wesleyville a few weeks ago. Mr. Speaker, the situation is tnat the fishermen who served on the Fisheries Loan Board - SOME HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh! MR. J. MORGAN: ~r. Speaker, the Oppositioo seems to ask questions and wants to interfere when you are trying to answer the questions. Make up your minds! MR. SPEAKER (Butt): Order, please!

Allow the hon. the minister to answer the question. MR . J . MORGAIIl: Mr. Speaker, the situat~on is the fishermen who served on the Fisheries Loan Beard in the past when they were appointed by my predecessor,their time expired in July 1979.And when I moved into the portfol~o in January or February of this year I was of the impression that the fishermen were aware that the time expired because they were appointed with a certain time limit when they were appointed by my predecessor 1and the t1me limit was up in July of 1979.

There was no firing from the Board by myself as minister.! was of the clear impression that fishermen who were on the Board were knowledgeable £n the fact that they were appointed to the Board for a certain period, and that period expired in July of 1979. And as for fishermen serving on the Fisheries Loan Board,it is my intention now to consult with the Pisher•en's Onion and ask them to make recommendations to me as to what fishermen will be serving on the Board in the future. MR. L. STIRLING: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for Bonavista North. MR. L.

STIRLING: The minister has now confirmed that he also agrees with his colleagues who have taken the 1619

March 25, 1980 Tape No. 616 SD - 1 MR. L. STIRLING: the position that their term expired in July 1979. They did not get a letter saying that your term is expired, o~ thank you for your services or anything. I would like · the minister to tell me by what authority did they approve the loans that were approved between July 1979,when this board had expired,and the appointment of the Interim Board in October 1979? You have one board expired and a new board not appointed until: October. By what authority did th~y approve the loans? MR. S. NEARY: walter Carter's au~~ority. MR.

SPEAKER (Butt) : The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. J. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I will endeavour to get the information for the hon. gentleman. I was not in the department at the time but I know the board was active. In fact, the board was really active; it spent $24 million. MR. D. JAMIESON: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. D. JAMIESON: Mr.

Speaker, for information purposes, and the hon. minister may have to look it up 1but my me1110ry is that Ms predecessor indicated that there were meeting of the board held after July .11979 &l'ld I believe I can go back through Hansard and find those references. If that is the case, ldlere in fact the fish-n whom he says had their terliiS expire in -, -~uly ion the collllllittee,and did they meet at that particular time., wo~ he undertake to find that out'?if he does not know it already? MR. SPEAJ:ER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. J. I«)RGNf : Mr.

Speaker, I will because I recall that as part of Cabinet,and not being involved with Fisheries, I rec:all that it came to the attention of Cabinet so-time, I think,-! t was in September or early Oc:tober anyway, that the Fisheries Loan Board was broke. '!'hey had no IIIDDey. They had expended all the funds allocated to thew~ in the past year's budget, in fact this present year's budget at the time 1 and they -re asking for some additional funds. HDw whether or not there 1620

March 25, 1980 Tape No. 616 so - 2 MR. J. !'.ORGAN : were meetinCJS.'held from the end of July,when the fishermen's time expired,and up until September, when the indication from the board to the cabinet was that the board was bankrupt at the time,or there was no more funds, whether the board met and made decisions allocated for those loans, I do not know but I will check into it and find out and qet the information back to the House. MR. L. STIRLING: Supplementary, Hr. Speaker. MR. SPEA!CER (Butt) : Supplementary, the hon. member for Bonavista North. MR. L. STIRLING: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I can confirm December 19th, if you check Hansard we were told that there were loans approved in the period from July until August because at that point, Hr. Speaker, nobody had decided that the board's term had expired. And this is why the minister can not have it both ways; _ either they expired or they were fired. MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEA!CER: Tbe hon. the President of the Council. !19'. _ MJI~LL ; The hon. member is enteri.nq into &ebate. MR.

SP~R: The point of order, ! would rule that the hon. qentleman is qettinq into the realm of debate and he should ask the question if he so desires. 'l!le bon. member for Bonavista North. _MR. L. STIRLING: Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker. A S1JPPlementary question • I expect that the minister is now goinq to decide whether they had expired 1621

March 25, 1980 Tape No. 617 EL - 1 MR. L. STrRLING: or were fired and he does not know the answer now. CAll he confizm that the other seven hundred applications th~t he mentioned to us the last time he made a ministerial statement, are there still seven hundred applications where fishermen do not know at this stage whether or not they are going to have loans approved for this year's fishery? MR. SPE~R (Butt) : The hon.the Minister of Fisheries. JIR. J. M:li<GAN : Mr.

Speaker, the detail s of the present status of the Loan Board is diffi<=Ult to indicate off the top of my head but I will endeavor to get the information. But I recall that approximately two weeks ago I told the House that there was then approximately seven hundred applications being processed by the interim Loan Board, Now with a new chairman, of =urse, a new comptrolle~ and fishermen will be appointed within the next couple of weeks or so upon meeting with the Fishermen's Union- In fact, this afteeDDOn I plan to meet the Fishermen's Union, Mr.

Cashin and his executive later on today - and the Board is .being active now. 'fhe Boil%'d is dealing with all the possible applications it can deal with.

There are funds in. tU Loan Fund and the Loan Board is dealing with all applications. 'fhey dealt with,over the past nl;llllber of weeks, ~pplieations from twenty-six boLa fide fishermen ~plying for boats in a ranqe of forty-live - sixty-fiw feet ~d th~t is the total number of ~pplications on file for that type of boat from all over the Province. l!low, these applic:&tions were processed and screen~d and eiqhteen of these were ~proved by the Bo&rd aDd now contracts have been arr;-c:;:=, in fact,'I thiDk it is ~ total. of eleven to date,and the rea.ini.n.g ntmber wlll be co.pleted ~d arranged with a shipyard in the next few days.

On the matter of equipment and new gear, like enc}inaa • etc. , the Board is -ting at least once .- -.L, 1622

MArch 25, 1980 Tape No. 617 EL - 2 MR. J. MORGAN: a week. In fact, last week they met, I thillk, twice for the one weeA. They •re dealing with all the app­ lications they can possibly deal with. It is an interim board with a new chairman now, but the fishermen are not yet been appointed to that Board. But they will be in the next two or three week period.

So the Boil.rd is doing everything possible to deal with applications on file from fishermen who need equipment and gear to get going in this year •s fishery.- Now, r emphasized yesterday in a public statement that we are not going to tolerate situations where fishermen are refusing to bring up to date their accounts wit.'l. the Loan Board and we have situat:~.ons, I have found in my own investigations,vh~re fishermen have been : in arrears for as long as seven and <2iqht years and no action been taken by the BOiird. so what r am saying is I am determined to have that Loan Beard to deal with the fishermea' s accounts in a business-like manner.

So therefore, fishermen who are in arrears who are m&king applications now - MR. NEARY: tiruaudible) boats and gear. MR. J .MORGAN: - Mr. Speaker, fishermen who are m&king application now for loans, if they are in good standing with the Board and if they are ·eligible under the existing criteria for loans, they will get their loans approved and be ready to go fishi!lg this year's fishing season. That is the situation. Mll. SPEAKER (Butt): Order, please. The time for Oral Questions hu expired. 1623

March 25, 1980 Tape No. 618 NM - 1 DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of privilege. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: I rise on a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. During the latter part of the Question Period a note was handed me and I elected to wait ~til the Question Period was over before bringing this to the notice of the House because I think it does bear on the privileges of the House. I feel it bears somewhat on my own privileges too. Perhaps if I read this it would be self-explanatory, Mr. Speaker.

It says, "There is a completely inaccurate story on page three of today's Telegram re the interview I had with you after the House c·losed yesterday. My original story said you would probably know today when the budget would be brought down. But someone in their "wisdom" at the Telegram included the fact that you supposedly told me it would be coming down Friday. It may very well be coming down Friday but that is certainly not what you said to me. In any case,accept my apologies for the mon~ .ental mistake and be ~sured that management down at the Teleqram will get an earful from me.

Thanks." And this is signed Bob Wakeham, and it was addressed to me. So I felt that I should bring that for clarification to the notice of the House. 000 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman raised a point of privilege. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoi~e. MR. NEARY: The han. gentleman raised a J?Oint of priv~ege. I be~ieve Your Honour has to deal with it but I fail to see what the point of privilege was. But it has to be dealt with one way or another. I am not te~ling Your Honour how to run the job,but it has to be disposed of. 1624

March 25, 1980 Tape No. 618 NM - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Butt): To the point of privilege, I would rule that it was merely a case for the hen. the minister to make a brief explanation about an error that was previously made. MR. SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: NOTICES OF MOTION: The hen. ~~e President of the Council. Mr.

Speaker, just before we get on in this, this is the appropriate place to do it, in view of the monumental announcement by the minister to the effect the budget would come down Friday,I would like to move that the House when it rises on Thursday afternoon stand adjourned until 3:00 P.M. on Friday afternoon rather than ten o'clock in the morning as is provided. MR. NEARY: MR. MARSHALL: MR. NEARY: Why not ten o'clock? MR. MARSHALL: Do we get the television coverage? Well that is not a - you know. Why? Why do you want it here then? Because of the printing and what have you 1 you know.

Television is not a consideration at the present time. No, it is not. MR. JAMIESON: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Leader of the Opposition. MR.

JAMIESON: In our usual spirit of co-operation I undertake, and I have so advised my colleagues- I do not know why, by the way, and we will get into that perhaps in the debate on interim• supply- but if it is the government's wish to do it in the afternoon, I merely want to point out in fairness, and I think this is the appropriate place for me to do so, that we are into Tuesday now, and a great many of our members, I have no idea how the effect is going to be on the other side of the House, have earlier commitments, always assuming until this moment officially that the House would rise at one o'clock as is normal.

And while all 1625

March 25, 1980 Tape No. 618 NM - 3 M..'l.. JAMIESON: of us will want to hear the pearls of wisdom that the Minister of Finance (Dr. J. Collins) will be ~~owing out, it is difficult and indeed in a sense,I would suggest, a bit unfair to all members, except those perhaps in the ministry, to do it in this particular fashion. But if the government has some special reason for doing so 1we so agree. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I think that is a debatable motion. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I do not want to delay the proceedings of the House but I want to ask the hon. gentleman if they bri~g down the Budget on Wednesday afternoon, which seems to me to be MR. JAMIESON: Friday afternoon. MR. NEARY: - or Friday afternoon- which seems to be rather strange indeed. I believe it is the first time since Confederation that a budget was brought down on a Friday afternoon, which gives the Opposition very little opportunity to respond to the budget because you have the weekend coming up - but could the hon. gentleman tell us when we are going to start the budget debate?

Will the budget debate start the following Monday or will the budget debate be postponed for some period? MR. SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: The hen. the President of the Council. Mr. Speaker, may I say first of all that there is no real ulterior motive in the government, no hidden motive. The reason for it is that in the afternoon, the primary reason is that there are certain proceedings that have to be gone through during budget day that are not really convenient in the morning. Thar i~ number one. Number two 1 as to when the budget will be debated, it is, as I thL~ the hen. member may not know,but I think 1626

March 25, 1980 Tape 619 EC - 1 MR. W. MARSHALL: I should inform the House it is the government's intention and desire to adjourn the House for the Easter recess on Friday so that when we come back after the normal Easter recess, we will then immediately begin the Budget debate. MR. S • NEARY: When will that be? MR., W. MARSHALL: Well, that will be on - a two week Easter recess we will have, this is what the hon. gentleman is trying to pull out of me. But 1 you know, this is a normal time, MR. S • NEARY: MR. W. MARSHALL: It is not normal. It is abnormal - There is nothing that is abnormal under the sun, Mr.

Speaker, about that. But what we are planning to do, when we co- back on April 14th, we will then go into the Budget debate and then we will proc~d also with the reference of the various departments to the cOIIIIIli ttees. MR. SPEAKER (BOTT): _All._ those in favour, "Ay~", contrary, "Nayu, carried. NOTICE OF MOTION: MP... SPEAKE~: The han. Minister of Finance . DR. J. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on U.Orz:ow ask this Bouse to resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider certain Resolutions for the granting of Supply to Her Majesty, and I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask this Bouse to resolve itself into a Ccmmittee of Ways and Means to consider the raising of Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, and I give notice that I will on t01110rrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled., "An Act To Alllend The Public Service Pensions Act" • Plr,, ~'iinG PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the 111811ber for Port au Port. MR. J.

HODDER: I beq leave to present a petition on behalf of all of the residents , Mr. Speaker, of Fox Island River and Point au Mal in the district of Port au Port. The petition i& addressed to the bon. Lynn Verge, Minister of Education. 1627

March 25, 1980 Tape 619 EC - 2 MR. J. HODDER: The undersigned are very concerned parents. "We, the parents of the students from Fox Island River and Point au Mal, are most concerned with the condition of the road leading to our communities. our children have to travel the road twice each day to attend school. The road is in a dangerous condition, and we Delieve that when the Spring Dreak-up occurs that the road will be impassaDle and we will be forced to keep our children out of school.

We are asking your support because we believe that you have genuine concern for the well-Deing and education of the children of our Province and this is not to De perceived as a threat or protest by any means, just to show that the aDove action may be necessary for the safety of our children. • Now, Mr. Speaker, whi.le this peti ticn is somewhat unusual in the way that it is worded, I must say, Mr. Speaker, that I can understand the concerns of the parents.

Now, this road, for the information of hon. members who may have visited the historic district of Port au Port, runs from the cCI!IIIIIlnity of Berry Head down along the coast to Fox Island River. The road, I. suppose, is approximately ten miles long and it is an unsafe road. I have no hesitation, Mr. Speaker, in telling this House of Assembly that this road is totally unsafe. It has blind turns, it is narrow, it is rough. The bed%oclc shows through in many areas. The sides of the road are - not periodically, but frequently­ eroded away DY the frequent brooka. and streams that run through the road.

I, myself , had an experience there last 5\maer when I was driving along and found a great sticlc sticlcing up in the middle of the road. I. suppose when the road waa built many years ago there wu somethinq called corduroy 'lftlOd underneath the road and IIOW this is starti.Dg to come throuqh, and the material that is used on this road is tot&lly inadequate. The road needs to be totally rebuilt.

With all of the achool children from this particular coaauni ty - that is from kindergarten to Grade XI -travelling over the road each day, I can -ll understand the concerns of the parents that some time a bua may leave and not return • .Mr. Speaker, this particular area of tbe Province is a very scenic area and has also beca~~e a sort of holiday 1628

March 25, 1980 Tape 619 EC - 3 MR. J. HODDER: resort for the surrounding people in Bay St. George and there are a lot of Summer homes t.'lere, and a lot of people go there to enjoy the beaches. There are beautiful beaches there and the area is a good place for picnics 1629

March 25,1980 Tape No. 620 AH-1 MR. HODDER: and I think the people of the area and myself would like to see some day a provincial park in that partic~lar area as you have ewery type of scenery within a square mile,I suppose 1 down nestled in the mountains with a beautiful seashore. As well, Mr. Speaker, the area has been undergoing a great deal of harbour development in the last fo~r or five years and as well the Department of Regional Economic Expansion recently put a $200,000 water system there which is intended to supply a fish plant which we do hope will come into being sometime in the very near future.

At the present time the fish is being trucked from the Port au Port peninsula by heavy tankers which must travel this road 1and which are a hazard on the road 1 I might say. I am not allowed to comment further on that particula:r · aspect of it when presenting this petition 1but I may comment on tha~ sometime in the future when the opportunity arises. Sowever, but most importantly , Mr.

Speaker, the road is unsafe and if I were a parent of a child who had to travel on that bus for approximately twenty miles a day I would feel much the same as these parents do and I think it is incumbent on the minister to make sure that this road is upgraded and paved. This is one of three roads in the district which need work done.The other two roads are in similar condition.

This one is as bad as any in the Province. ~ads in the "Port au Port area were 90inted out in the Sullivan Transportation Commissio~by the Sullivan Transportation Commission, that the roads in Port au Port were some of the worst in the Province,yet since that report has been down, two or three years now, Mr. Speaker, we have seen no substantial improvement. But, Mr. Speaker, we are hopeful and we know for sure that the M.inist~ of Transportation and Communications (Mr.Brett),when the budget comes down,will have ~ certain allotment of money there for the roads in the district,and hopefully next year, Mr.

Speaker, when I stand here I will be able to praise the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr.Brett). And I am sure that the Minister of Education (Ms Verge) will put every bit 1630

March 25,1980 Tape No. 620 AH-2 1-'.R. HODDER: of pressure that she can on him to make sure that these roads are properly upgraded and paved. So I ask that the petition be tabled and referred to the department to which it relates. MR. STAGG: MR. SPEAKER (Butt): MR. STAGG: Mr. Speaker. The han. member for Stephenville. Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak in support of this petition presented by my colleague in the adjoining district of Port au Port.

The two communities to which he refers, the communities of Fox Island River and Point au Mal,are communities ~.at were originally designated to die in the 1960s under the resettlement programme,and one of the first actions that I took when I became the member for Port au Port back in 1971 was to insist that that type of thing not go through 1and it did not. So these two communities are now thriving communities as far as industry is concerned 1especially the fishing industry. The people in those communities are to be commended in that regard.

I think the point must be made that if we are going to maintain communities and allow them not to be resettled we must also provide them with the kind of services that are usual and are associated with growning communities. So I certainly support the prayer of the petition 1but I will also point out that in 1971 there was no road to Fox Island River, there was a pathway there 1but between 1971 and 1975 the road from Fox Island River to Point au Mal was completely built and in fact a major portion of it was paved.

Also in the community of Point au Mal in 1974 or 1975, I am not sure which now, there was community pavement laid there.So there has been some work done there by this administration and I am sure that as the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr.Brett) brings down his priorities over the next few years that -there will be room in it for upgrading on these two most important roads. It gives me great pleasure to support the petition,Mr. Speaker. SOME RON. MEl>1BERS : Hear, hear! 1631

March 25, 1980 Tape No. 621 SD - l ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAICER (Butt) : The hon . ~inister of Finance. DR. J. COLLINS : Mr. Speaker, I have received a message from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor. MR. SPEJ.n:R: Order, please!

Addressed to the hon. the Minister of · Finance, "I, the Lieutenant-Gove::nor of the Province of N<!!wfoundland, transmit estimates of sums required for the Public Service of the Province ·"for the year ending 31st March, 1981 by way of interim supply and in accordance with the provisions\ of the British North America Act of 1867, as amended, I recou.end these estimates to the House of Assembly. Siqned Gordon A. Winter, Lieutenant-Governor." MR. SPEJ.n:R: The hen. Minister of Finance. DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I move that the Lieutenant-Governor's message be referred to a Committee of Supply.

On motion that the House resolve itself into COII!IIIittee of the Whole on supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN: (Baird) Order, please! RESOLUTION 'l'hat it is expedient to introduce a measure to provide for the qrantinq to Her Majesty for defraying certain expenses of the Public Service for the financial year ending the 31st. day of March, 1981, the sum of two hundred and ninety-nine million nine hundred and fifty thousand dollars ($299 ,950 ,000). DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN : The bon. Minister of Finance. MR. S. NEARY: '1'o a point of order.-; to a point of information, I guess.

I would like to get a ruling from Your Honour. Right nov- are in the Co!Bittee of Supply a -Does that 1632

March 25, 1980 Tape No. 621 SD- 2 MR. S. NEARY: l!lean we are going to have now the - there are different ways of doing it 1 as the hon. gentleman knows are we going to have the major debate now on the Interim Supply Bill, or are we going to have second reading when the Speaker is back in the Chair,or will we take it as we have in the past and go th;r:ough it where we can speak for ten minutes on each heading as often you want? Is that the procedure we are using now? MR. If. MARSHALL: Mr.

Chairman, 1Irf undeB'standing is now that we are now debating the resolution,which is the way that all money bills, as the hon. member understands, are brought before the HOuse. we will debate the resolution and after the resolution passes then,as is traditional,it goes through first, second and third reading without debate. So we will be doing the debate now and it will be the normal rules of CoiiiDittee. I hope that edifies or . - ~ explains the matter. __ .. -- MR. CHAIRMAN (Bai!:d) : The hon. Minister of Finance. BR. J. COLLINS : Mr.

Chaintan, the actual resolution we are debating, perhaps I should read it out, It says, "Be it resolved by the House of Assembly in Legislative Session convened as follows: That it is expedient to introduce a measure to provide for the granting to Her Majesty for defraying certain expenses of the Public Service for the financial year ending 31st day of March, 1981, the s~a~~e of two hundred and ninety-nine million nine hundred and fifty thou.<Jand dollars ($299,950,000) ." Mr.

Chairman, I do not intend really to speak to any extent at this time on this because really it is self-evident. ~ hon. lllelllbers have the

schedule before th- that gives the headings under which this aJIIDunt of money is to be allocated and those headiDqs include all the departments of government and certain other services such as Consolidated Fund Service and so on. It is traditional, Mr. Chairman, to bring in an Interim Supply Bill in anticipation of the main estU!ates because, of course 1the debate on the main estimates can 1633

March 25, 1980 Tape No. 621 SD - 3 DR. J. COLLINS: be expected to go on for so~~e considerable period of time and it will be -11 into the fiscal year before the main estimates are passed ~ therefore the allocations in the main estill1ates ratified by the House of Assembly. And undl that happens, of course, the. c;JI"VPJ:"MN Jias-Ro. futltis t& 1634

March 25, 1980 '!'ape No. 622 DW - 1 DR. J. COLLINS: expend once the beqinninq ~f the new fiscal year starts. So the Interim Supply Bill is to allow the government , shall we say, a breathing space by which the expense of government can continue to be carried on and the exp~nses defrayed until such time as the hon. House decides to accept or .otherwise the aain estimates· I might just mention, Mr.

Chairman, that in the Interim Supply Bill there is in the Department of Transportation and Communications some allocation for certain capital works that my hon. friend the Minister of Transporta- tion and Communications (Mr. Brett) will wish to comment on particularly just to make sure the hon . Mouse is aware of the particular importin regard to those capital works . So with nothing further at this peint, Mr. Chairman, I move adoption of the said resolution. MR. CHAIRMAN (Baird): The hon. Leader of the Opposi- tion. MR. D. JAMIESON : Well, Mr.

Chairman, first of all let me say that I concur in the remarks made earlier by the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Nearyl with regard to the timing of this whole exercise.

I find it-and I am sure that it would be very difficult to discover any kind of precedent when you have Interim Supply coming in in two days ahead of when the main Budget is coming down, when we are ~sked to pass a huge amount of money, nearly $300 million,on the basis cf a single piece of paper and without the slightest degree o! explana- tion of anything that isLin it, including huge amounts like $65 million for Health, $64 aillion for Education- it really does • to a very/great extent make a mockery of the whole Budget presentation process and of th• ability of Opposition members, and we have beard a great deal ~bout- the freedom of private members on the other aide,to do anything meaningful about what this government proposes to do during the next twelve months 1635

March 25, 1980 Tape No. 622 DW - 2 MR. D. JAMIESON: on scme highly significant item. For instance, we have here what must be, judging by the refer- ences that have been made from time to time by ministers opposite, a very significant portion of their total budgets. As far as I am aware, for example, the Transportation and Communications amount here ot over $50 million, . if the hon.

Minister of Transportation and CommunicationslMr.Brett) has not been too pessimistic 1 it will be interesting to see just what share of what we are going to get over the nezt twel?e ~onths is contained in this particular Interim Supply item about which, although we are assured he is going to make some word of explanation,there is nothing in this particular document that is before us today.

The second thing that I think may be properly said to be abusing the co-operation which we on this side have tried over the past year to carry out, is that we get this in printed form a few minutes, just a few minutes 1quite literally ,before we are asked t~ get up and pass judgement on whether this government-according to the words we just heard from His Excellency, the Lieutenant- ­ Governor - whether we on this side are ~oing to give this government $300 million.

And here it was just ten minutes ago that the document came forward, we have no idea what it represents in specific terms in relation to the total Budget that we are going to be hearing on Friday, we do not know any of the details. Members on this side and .Private members on the other side according to the Chair's ruling are per­ fectly entitled to ask all the~questions they like. Over past weeks we have been hearing one member after the other get ~p and ask about roads in his 4istrict.

We had five or siz of them today ask about health care, ask about what is intended with regard to schools, inadequate schools - I am thinking in particular of tha member for Foqo (Mr. Tulkl who has been literally, daily almost,talking about how poor 1636

March ~5, 1980 Tape ~lo. 622 ow - MR. D. J.li:MIESON: and how shocking the educational levels and the educational facilities are in his part of New­ foundland,- all of this comes in,$60•odd million for Zducation 1 but no word to say wkether,in fact, the response is going to be from the government positive to the kinds of representations t.hat we have made. Quite: literally 1 this is a blank 1637 . -····:--·- - ~- ...... ,--"'" .. --·..--··-- --~-- --

March 25, 1980 Tape No. 623 EL - 1 MR. D. JAMIESON: cheque for $299,950,000. somebody must have decided $300,000,000 .would look a little high so they lopped off a few thousand dollars, $SO,OOO , to keep it under, I suppose $300 nullion dollars , a beautiful piece of carVing it out nicely in that fashion. MR. L. THOMS: But is $300 million dol.l.ara. MR. D. JAMIESON: But what is ,in effect.$300,million dollars.

We h•ar the Minister of Fisheries a few minutes ago telling us of vhat a terrible condition that the Fisheries Loan Board was in when he came to its rescue and about how efficiently and how effectively he b going to deal with it in the future. Riqht here we have got $9,080,000 in interim supply for Fishery. What is that for? What is the designated expenditure that that is going to overCOIIIe? Is it going, some of this 1 to the Fisheries Loan Board? We do not know. We are not given any of those facts, any of that information. And I could go clear on through the wbol.e group of itellls that are here.

Mines and Energy - $7, 530,000. Bas that got any relationship to the Newfoundland case , as it were , vith regard to ~·offsho:re oil and gas? Is it part and parcel. of some ldnd of training program so that our younger people are going to be U,le to take these wonderful jobs that appear off there in the future someplace? Is that related to that, or is it something entirely different? There just ia not a singl.e solitary l!Ord of explanation. Now, Mr.

Chainum, that would not be a bad 1110ve except that we are here deliberately by the government put under the 91m because nd matter what we want to de with this, there is a timetable in-.ol.ved here and it is the same old pl.oy which has been wred time and time aqain to ny ' l"ellows, you cannot keep this debate 90ing, you cannot ask the questions, you ::o:.-.:1. cannot go into it in as muc:h detail; 'lfhy?' 'Because 1come the end of 1638 .·

March 25, 1980 Tape No. 623 EL - 2 MR. D. JAMIESON: the month or whenever it is 'the old age pensioners will suffer or people will not get their salary cheques•or some other kind of device which always winds up in a position where interim supply is cavalierly treated by the House, because there is no alternative. There is literally no alternative.

There is no way that we on this side would be prepared to say,'~hat i• is just t.'le touqh luck of znany poor people in Newfoundland on Social Security and the like, it is just their tough luck that we did not put this interim supply measure through.' We cannot possibly do that.

And because the government is perfectly well aware that we cannot do that, because they know full well that it has to be done within a certain time frame, and by the way that has been squeezed even further now because we have got a full budget coming on Friday and this coming in two days ahead, I repeat that i~ surely must be an unprecedented kind of move. And furthermore, you U.Ost feel that this is a useless, ;"frustrating, empty kind of . exercise. What is the percentage in us saying that we do not believe that X amount for such and such a department is either adequate or is too much? What is the sense?

Because, I repeat, it has to go through anyway and half of the blpactpor pretty clue to half of the impact 1of all the budget measures which the Minister of Finance is going to come down with on Friday, are negated to a very great extent by the decision that we are going to have t~ make. Well, let ae assure hon. aembers opposite that ,I repeat, they are the governors r-f ~!~ Province for as lonq AS the Newfoundland people are prepared to put up with this ki.Dd of, -vhat I regard as 'lloppine•s • And from our point of view 1639

Marcb. :2S, 1980 Tape No. 623 EL- 3 MR. D. JAMIESON: you can have interim supply. We will see that the pegple who need the money that is implicit in this bill be -fore the end of the 1110nth get it, because, r emphasise once again, we have no choice in the matter. But if this government is sincere and genuine, and r have no doubt that many of its 'lllelllbers are, but if they :r:eally are sincere and genuine in sayinq they want full discussion, tlley want total and open cooperation with the opposition, r ask you, and I ask the public of N-foundland throuqh you, Mr.

Chai%11Wl, is it fair to tile opposition? rs it fair to members O!)pos ·ite who are not l!lelllbers of the Ministry, who are not privy to the secret? I:s it appropriate to COllie in here t1i0 -days before the budqet, the INlin _b~qet . is due and say,'c;ive us $300,000,000?' I say that that is liD abuse of power and it is one that really Qught not to happen aqain. Now, last year, much aqa.inst the better jw:iqement of some of my colle49Ues whom r respect, r thillk it is fair to say that the majority of us said th&t - 1640

March 25, Tape 624, Page 1 -- apb MR. JAMIESON: would agree to certain changes in the rules of this Hous.e in order to expedite business, in order to make for a better feeling and better spirit of co-operation. I believe on balance, although there are some still who disagree and there are great flaws in the rules as they presently exist, but on balance the process worked reasonably well.

But there is another problem with regard to dealing with Interim Supply and that problem is that every minute we take in debating $300 million, every minute we take is lopped off the amount of time that we are entitled to have on the total budget.

So,therefore, what we are up against is a situation in which if we say even if there is time , which there is not, there are only a couple of days at the outside in which we can deal with this by the sheer necessity of the main budget coming in on Friday, but even if we decided we were going to do this we do it at the erosion of our capability to deal thoroughly and fully with the main estimates. Now, Mr.

Chairman, I am one of those who believes that the rule changes were all right, that they moved in the right direction, but I have already said informally to the President of the Privy Council, I have already said informally to him, and I say it to all members here present now, that I would hope that the government will, when the main budget is presented, also see to it that the report stage, when the findings of the Committees come back to this House, stops being the charade which it was under the rules as we established them last year. Because all that happened last year on those reports, 16 41

March 25, 1980, Tape 624, Page 2 -- apb MR. JAMIESON: which was, I know by the way, unsatisfactory even for some of the ministers concerned, was that we had another mini debate which simply resulted in a whole series of speeches being made and at the very bitter end the minister concerned was allowed to make a few comments.

I think that if the Committee system as we structured it last year is going to work then the House Leaders must get together and must make that report stage more sensible, more realistic, more meaningful rather than having it like a re-run of a television movie, in a sense; people getting up in the House and merely making speeches at each other instead of being able to do what we should be able to do, and what I am sure, by the way, most ministers would want to have happen, and that is to have the opportunity on the report stage to deal with it in the manner in which all estimates were normally dealt with, that is by way of interventions and the like in the Committee stage here in the House.

I think it would infinitely improve the capacity of members on this side, and those on the other side who may wish to participate, it would infinitely improve the flew of information to the public and it would also give to members who are not on particular committees, who cannot attend particular committees the opportunity to ask specific questions that may wish to do.

I notice that I have been given an indication that my time is running out here, at least for now, but let me end by saying again what I said at the beginning, that if the government genuinely wants to have our co-operation, if they genuinely wish to demonstrate that we have a democratic, truly democratic process in this Province, then they 1642

March 25, 1980, Tape 624, Page 3 -- apb loffi . JAMIESON : will cease and desist from this kind of really quite shameful advantage­ taking of the Opposition. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! MR. JAMIESON: I cannot see that we can legitimately deal with the country's business when we are given a piece of paper five minutes or so before the debate starts, when we are told, 'Sorry,boys, but whatever time you take is off your regular allocation of time on the full estimates'.

And then they say to us, 'And, of course, if has to be put out of the way within the next few hours because if that is not done tnen the whole process grinds to a bait'. At the very -least it reflects upon the competence of the government and of the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) that he should find himself in this position, 1643

March 25, 1980 Tape No. 625 NM - 1 MR. JAMIESON: that he had not been able to bring in his main budget in time and had to scramble ,really- that is what it amounts to- scramble at the last moment to put something together. I cannot believe, I simply cannot believe that here we are, two days before the minister is going to make his main speech 1and he says, "I cannot really do anything other than bring in an interim supply measure of this kind." Well, Mr. Chairman, let us have no illusions about it.

Insofar as we are concerned,! repeat, we will take whatever time is necessary,and whatever ~ime my colleagues feel they want to take 1to express themselves on this measure. We will try to be co-operative for all of the reasons ~hat I mentioned. But I would not only urge the Minister of Fin~~ce,if he is there when there is another budget brought down, to avoid this kind of awkward and,for us,difficult situation. But I want to say too that if we are going to continue in the spirit of co-operation that I hope we have demonstrated that this kind of exercise will now be at an end. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR.

CHAIRMAN (Baird): DR. COLLINS: MR. NEARY: MR. CF.AIRMAN: LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! The hen. Minister of Finance. ltr. Chairman, I would just like - A point of order. A point of order, the han. member for Mr. Speaker, I am not quite clear that we are following the proper procedure here now. I asked the hon.

House Leader when we went into Committee of Supply whether we were debating the resolution now in Committee and then doing an item by item analysis of the Interim· Supply Bill, and the hen. gentleman, in his answer, said, "We will debate the resolution as we have done in the past and the rules of debate of the House would apply." And I would assume that under these rules my han. friend could have taken 1644

March 25, 1960 Tape ~o. 62 5 ~11 - 2 MR. ~Y: all the time he wanted to debate this resolution. Otherwise get the Speaker back in the Chair and we will debate the resol .ution and then CJO into Committee o£ Supply and deal with the subheads. Thi~ is a complete abuse of the privileges of this House, an abuse of power to limit the Leader of the Leader of the Opposition to debate on the resolutioD to fifteen minutes and then have the minister get up and close the debate, because that is what the hon. gentleman will do if we are going to follow the rules of debate of this House. I would like to get a ruling, Mr.

Chai:rman,on this now. If we are debating the resolution and the government is not prepared to let us have the time that we are allowed under normal rules of debate of this House, then get the Speaker back and we will debate the resolution in the proper way. MR. CHAIR!>M (Baird): To t~t point of order, this House will recess for five to ten minutes to research same. 1645

Marc h 25, 1980 Tape No. 62 6 NM - l ~q. CFAIRMAN (Baird): Order, please! With respect to the point of order raised by the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) ,it should be noted we are in Committee of Supply and Standing Orders, dealing with the estimates procedure as set forth in Standing Order 116 through to l22 1apply. To be more specific I will read 116; "

(1) The procedure in Committee of Supply shall be limited to not more than seYenty-five hours to be reduced in accordance with the provisions of this Part.

(2) For the purposes of Standing Order 116(1) 'Committee of Supply' includes the Committee of Supply on the main estimates and on interim supply forming a part of the main estimates." The time for each speaker during estimates debate is set forth in Standing Orders 118, paragraph (5), ~hich reads; "Notwithstanding Standing Order 49, the Minister introducing his estimates and the member speaking immediately in reply shall not speak for more than fifteen minutes and every other member shall not speak for more than ten minutes at a time during Committee of Supply, or during the debate in a committee or committees established under Standing Order 117." In Committee of Supply it has been the practice of this House that both the resolution and the bill are debated in Committee, when the time limit is as set forth in the estimates procedure.

After the resolution and bill have passed the Committee 1the bill goes back to the House and the first, second and third reading are treated as formalities and no debate occurs. I thank the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) for raising this point of order and providing me this opportunity to clarify the correct procedure. M.'<.. MARSHALL: MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. MARSHAl.L: ~- Chairman, if I just may, The han. House Leader. Before we resume 1 it would not be our intention to attempt to stifle any debate that legitimately a member may - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 16~6

March 25, 1980 Tape No. 626 NM - 2 MR. MARSHALL: - legitL~ately wish to be engaged in, so that i£ the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, speaking of course, in behalf of the Opposition to this major Interim Supply Bill, you know, it would not be our wish to interrupt his address at ten or fifteen minutes, so I am quite sure, speaking from this side of the House, that we will certainly give leave if the hon. gentleman wishes co continue on for the full period. MR. CHAIRMAN: (Baird) MR. NEARY: The han. member for Lapoile.

That is very generous of the hon. gentleman, Sir, but I would like to point out to the House that the only reason the resolution is in the Committee of Supply is because the Opposition agreed to let it go there to take the place of second reading. MR. MARSHALL: Not so. MR. NEARY: That is so, Mr. Chairman. We can have second reading when Your Honour rises the Committee and reports back to the Speaker. Now we have to decide now whether we are having second reading where the rules of the House, the ordinary rules will apply, and then fifteen and ten minutes on the subhead. That is what we have to decide now.

My understanding in the beginning was that we agreed that this resolution is now going through second reading and I believe that - MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. House Leader. MR. MARSHALL: I do not wish to prolong the debate, Mr. Chairman. All I wish to do is to show a certain spirit of co­ operation. I do not want to get bogged down into technicalities. But the fact of the matter is, Mr. Chaiman, that we are in COIIDDittee of Supply, and the hon. gentleman is slightly confused; now I do not believe the hon. gentleman, Mr. Chairman, is really confused.

I think he knows the rules as well as we all do, so I should not begin - 1647

~larc!l 25 , 1980 '!'ape No. 626 NM - 3 MR. NEARY> and as well as the hen. gentleman knows the rules. MR. MARSHALL: so I should not begin to tell the hon. gentleman what ~~e rules are because he sat here longer than I have, he will not sit here for longer than I in the future, but he has in the past. The situation is that all money bills, and we have ·<~. money bill before the House - I do not want to get into a procedural wrangle, we could quote May and Beauchesne, we could quote everything, we could even quote Neary in times past, Mr.

Chairman -but the fact of the matter is that all money bills are introduced by a resolution. The debate takes place on the resolution. MR. NEARY: Right. Aiid we are allowing second reading now. MR· MARSHALL .: And the resolution is considered in Committee of Supply. MR. NEARY: Right. MR. MARSHALL.: Standing Orders 116 to 122 contain the framework within which we operate in Committee of supply. MP •• N'EAR'i : Righ::. . MR. MARSHALL: Now that is the way it is. So it was not the case of me asking the Opposition to do something unusual. MR. NE!'..R~: No, no! MR.

MARSHALL: What we are doing is we are debating interim supply in the same manner in which all supply bills historically have been debated in this House. ·MR. NEARY: That is right. MR. MARSHALL: Now that being so, 1648

March 25,1980 Tape No. 627 AH-1 MR. MARSHALL: each member has fifteen ~inutes and they have to sit down and get up again, again and again. Now my point is this, that the han. Leader of the Opposition was speaking as the main speaker en Iterim Supply and it certainly is not the government's intention to stifle him because of strict, stringent rules of debate.And if he spoke for ten or fifteen minutes - unfortunately I was out outside at the time and I do not know to what stage he got in his debate- and if he needs more time,the hon.

Leader of the Opposition can have all the time in the world to debate continuously andconsecutively Interim Supply. MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman does not have to give him more time, he has it by right. MR. MARSHALL: Well 1 he can. Whether he has it or not,he has got it. Wherever he gets it, he has it. MR. JAMIESON : Mr. Chairman, this is really most unfortunate because in reality I think it was perhaps a genuine misunderstanding or a difference of opinion as to what the han. Government House Leader said initially.

I have to say,and I checked this with some of my colleagues, and I must confess that I was under the impression that we were ,through this process,going to debate the resolution- I think this was the point that the han. member for LaPoile (Mr.Neary) raised, was whether we were going to deal with the resolution in the committee stage but with the rules in effect as they would be with the Speaker in the Chair, dispose of that and do that - and incidentially we would have done it1 I had no intention of speaking for very much longer in any event, I thought we were goi~g to dispose of that, then we would go on the process of ten minutes and if a member wanted tc rise more than once such would be the case, but that the time limitations as they relate exclusively to the resolution, that these would be the same as if we were,in fact,with the Speaker in the Chair.

Now if the hon. Ho~se Leader on the other side is agreeable to that procedure,then I think we can carry on. I can say to you that that certainly was-! have canvassed -the general impression that we had. We can carry on in that way and then there will be no more difficulty, 'otherwise,! suggest we would have to then ask ourselves,whether we need 1649

March 25,1980 Tape No. 627 AH-2 MR. JAMIESON: another ruling as ~o what happens in separating out the resolution itself from the individual items and that,I suggest,would be an unnecessary waste of time. I would like to propose that the normal rules of debate as if the Speaker were in the Chair should apply with regard to the resolution itself. The alternative to that,if I may suggest without once again raising another point of order, the alternative to that is as, I think, triggered the intervention by my hen. friend from LaPoile (Mr.

Neary), was the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) was rising immediately following my speech - MR. NEARY: That is right. MR. JAMIESON: - which had been indicated to me was lirni ted to fifteen minutes, he was rising presumably, therefore on the resolution discussion , it is conceivable that the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) could have risen after every speaker on this side, that was not the intention. MR. ~ARSHALL: MR. JAMIESON: There will be no intention (inaudible). Is it agreea':lle then that •.-·e proceed · on the basis of the time limitations that I have spoken of? MR.

MARSHALL: Now,I do not want this to be quoted as a precedent in the future, so I think we can take a note of that in capital lettersJ but the fact of the matter is really all the government is interested in doing is bringing the Supply Bill before the committee and the House and to have it debated in the most effective manner possible, and if the Opposition wish. it to be that way we are quite willing to- because as far as we are concerned we have put the position there, the hen.

Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) can ably answer any questions that are asked~so whatever is needed in order for the effective and the efficient examination of this bill can be afforded to this committee with a heart and a half, Mr. Chairman. MR. NEARY: W~ll,what is it you are a5King? You want to combine the two and let the Committee of Supply rules - MR. MARSHALL: What is the hen. member talking about, combining the two? 1650

l1a:rc!l 25,1 980 Tape No . 627 AH-3 )IR . ~-'U': The :-eso luti on and the - once ,..,.e ar e finished :;he debate then it is all over. MR. MARSHALL: Well,that is the way it usually is in this. You have one debate on the :resolution. The hen. gentleman knows that. The han. Leader of the Opposition can see the han. gentlema,n and he can see him smiling at me,and he knows it as well as I do that this is the way it usually is. MR. CHAIRMAN (Baird): The n=. member for LaPaile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman ! I am going to have a few words~ I do not khow whether I am allowed thirty minutes or ten under the rules that the Government House Leader just made. 1 B 51

March 25, 1980 MR. CHAIRMAN (Baird): MR. W. MARSHALL: hon. gentleman 1 if I may. Tape No. 628 DW - 1 The hon. Government House Leader. I would like to answer the The hon. gentleman might like to yield to his leader,to extend to him the same courtesy that we were prepared to afford to him,if he is fiaished his remarks. If the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Jamiesoni is not,! rise to his defence and to his support as against the hon. member. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. S. NEARY: Hear, hear: The hon. member for LaPoile. Well, Mr.

Chairma~ I am not sure if I have thirty minutes or ten minutes,but r:will follow the ruling given by Your Honour and I will assume that the resolu­ tion and the item by item analysis of the Interim Supply Bill that the Leader of the Opposition has fifteen minutes.! can take ten 1 but if I wanted to stand by my rights I could take thirty minutes or get the Speaker back in the Chair and we will have second reading of this Bill. So you can have it either way,but I will take tan minutes because I can get up and down then. The point has been made, Mr. c~airma~· and I believe our rights have been properly outlined.

Now, Mr. eMair•aD,I want to say at the outset that this is a most unusual procedure. It is the first time, I believe since Confederation,that we have had an Interim Supply Bill two days before the main Budget is brought down,or three days before the main Budget comes down. And, Mr. Chairman, the unfair part of it is that the ZD~~rim Supply Bill ~•aa brought into the House with the ink hardly dry on it, it just came from the printers,which goes to show that it was obvioasly put together in a hurry and that may explain why we did not get a satisfactory explana­ tion from the Minister of Finance (Br.

Collins) of why he is asking for almost $300 million in this Interim Supply Bill 1652

March 25, 1980 Tape No. 628 DW - 2 MR. S. NEARY : without very little explanation to the House. I think that probably explains it, it was put together in a hurry. Now, Mr. ChairMan, during the Oral Question Period today I asked the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) if he had found a replacement for the Deputy ~inister of Finance and eomptroller of the treasury and the minister told us that he had not found a replacement,that they carried out a nation-wide campaign but they had not yet made a selection.

And that the authority for the Comp- troller of rinance was now placed in the hands of a Deputy Minister - an Assistant Deputy Minister of Finance. It was not quite clear which - although I believe the minister did mention the name of the Assistant Deputy Minister who was now comptroller of the treasury. what I want to say, Mr.

Chairman, is that that is unsatisfactory; the eomptroller of the ~reasury is the most important civil servant in this building, the Comptroller of the Treasury is the man who protects the 'ublic Treasury under the Financial Adminis- ~ration Act and God only knows the Public Treasury needs to be protected in this Province. we just ca•erthrough seven years of corruption, seven years of Tory corruption, we had a corrupt government in this Province for seven years - ~R. J. COLLINS: What about before that? MR. S.

NEARY: The Moores administration was the most corrupt administration, far ,ors..e than anything in Canadian history - MR. L. THOMS: You can get on Show and Tell on Th•rsday. MR. S. NEARY: - far vorsf than anything in Canadian history. Kad now the chickens are comin~ home to roost. We have been vindicated on this side of the House, 1653

March 25, 1980 Tape No. 628 DW - 3 MR. S. NEARY: everything we have s&id in the last three or four years when government members were pounding on their desks,everytlme the former Premier get up in this House and lied about questions, lied about policy, lied when questions were put to him a.nd we were accused - sometimes our own supporters fell into the trap­ we were accused .of lowering the decorum of the House, of smear tactics, of not doing our job. We were too negative, we were .told. And now, Mr.

Chairman, we find out we have been vindicated and we have only seen the tip of the ice­ berg in these political polls - MR. J. CARTER: ~ell us about John Doyle. MR. S. NEARY: Yes, I could tell the hon. gentleman all about that too and all about how he was - 1654

March 25, 1980 Tape 629 EC - 1 MR. J. CARTER: Words fail you. MR. S. NEARY: - no,they do not fail me, I just have to be careful what my words are - of how members of the =ormer adm L~ istra tion tried to shake him down - SOME HON. MEMBERS : He&r, hear! MR. NEARY: - tried to shake him down and then sicked the RCMP on him to cover up their tracks. MR. J. CARTER: Rubbish! MR. S. NEARY: Mr.Cilairman, I am not going to be drawn into any crossfire with the hon. gentleman.

I want to come back to the point that I was making about the necessity of filling that vacancy in the Department of Finance, the Deputy Minister of Finance and Comptroller of the Treasury, quickly. And when I uked the hon. the Minister of Finance (Dr. J. Collins) - I said the Deputy Minister resigned in sort of a peculiar fashion. Probably that was not the right choice of words 1 Sir. What I means was, it was the suddenness of the resignation of the Deputy Minister of Finance and Comptroller of the Treasury (Mr. w. Fearn), who,I am sure, Mr.

Chainaan, did not decide on the spur of the moment to resiqn the top civil service post in this Province. He just did not decide that on the spur of the mcment. And we have not been given sufficient reason as to why the Comptroller of the Treasury.who is appointed under the Great Seal of Newfoundland , as to why he suddenly resiqned from his position. Was he fired? Was there a disaqreement? Did he do hia job? Did he amply protect the Public Treasury? The hon. the Minister of Finance cannot just brush it off, slouqh it off, by sayinq~ 'He resiqned.' Well, why did he resiqn?

We have a riqht to knew. ·the people of this Province have a right to knew. Was he disqusted because the PUblic Treasury was being ripped off? Mr. Cha1.rman, whether the Minister of Finance like a !. t or not, vbether the government likes it or not, whether we like it or not, the Comptroller of the Treasury was responaible ,next to the minister, for the disbursement of public funds. And if we were doinq our job in this Bouse, 1655

March 25, 1980 Tape 629 EC - 2 MR. S. NEARY: we would summon the Comptroller of the Treasury before the Bar of this House to tell us why money was paid out of the Consolidated Revenue fund, why money was paid out of the Public Treasury to Devine Advertising and to McConnell Advertising for a film done of the Tory convention in Gander. And we should do it. We should find out how much more of this skulduggery went on. MR. THOMS: Show your protest, boy. Come on over. MR.

NEARY: When we were over here laying out day after day examples and cases of skulduggery and corruption - ana I tell you, it was awfully discouraqinq. The news media of this Province followed up on none of it, just took the Premier's word there was no corruption, took the minister's word there was no corruption,and accused us of beinq neqative and using smear tacticsJ and •There is Neary down there repeating himself over and over again,' not worth reporting.

The biggest scandals in Canadian history right under their noses and you would not get away with it in any other province of canada or any State in the United States. The newsmen would not allow the government to get away with it. And now, Mr. Chairman, it took the Auditor General to give us one case. How many more ~es are there? MR. J. CARTER: You blew your own credibility. MR. S • NEARY : I did not blow my credibility. I guarantee you that I can look the hen. gentleman in the eye and I can look anybody in this Province straight in the eye and say, 'I did my job.

I tried to protect the Public Treasury.' Because that is what we are here for. Our number one job in this House is to protect the Public Treasury. And for seven years, that hon. gentleman supported a corrupt adminisb:ati.on and left the Public 'rreasury wide open to Mr. Moores and his crowd of rogues that he had with him. MR. THOMS_: , And still ccndoning what happened. MR. S ; NEARY: And still condoning it, Sir • I would like to find out the real. owners of Adl.atok at the present tiDie. I would like to find out why Mr.

Lundrigan resigned frc:m the Cabinet and went out and played the stock market and made all. kinds of money on oil stock. And I would like to find out why a few other people in this Province want 1656

~ch 25, 1980 Tape 629 J::C - 3 MR. S. NEARY: out and :bouqht oil stock and made themselves a lldnt and are now down on Torbay Road in a luxurious office, buddy-buddy, the two of them toqether after allegedly falling out over the Grand Falls hospital. I would like to get to the bottam of that. And then we are asked, Mr. Chai%111al1, to approve $300 million without as much as an explanation from the hon. gentleman «;Jr any guarantee that the Public Treasury is now being adequately protected. What about the Mahoney Royal Commission of Inquiry 1657

Narch 25, 1980, Tape 630, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: into wrongdoing in the Department of Public Works? Is that report in yet? And if it is not in, when ;fill it be in? DR. COLLINS: The Minister of Justice - MR. NEARY ·: Oh, the Minister of Justice. The hon. the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) should be interested in it. DR. COLLINS: The Minister of Justice (inaudible) has just said (inaudible). MR. NEARY: Every minister on that side of the House should be interested in it. And, Mr. Chairman, while all of this was going on there were the trained seals over there thumping on L~eir desks.

The Premier of that day used to get up in this House and lie day in and aay out- down they would pound on their desks. MR. THOMS: And the member for St. John's North (Mr. J. Carter) pounded the hardest. MR. NEARY: That is right, he certaibly did. Now we have one example. I would like to know how many more examples. I should like to see the whole George McLean era, the whole George McLean dealings with this government placed unner investigation by this government. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. NEARY: ----· · ~-- . MR. J. CARTER: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker, we saw - Leave no stone unturned. MR.

NEARY: That is right, leave no stone unturned. We had - pardon? MR. STIRLING: Ask the member why he resigned. MR. NEARY: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: 1658 Why who resigned? (Inaudible) . No, he was flung out. He

March 25, 1980, Tape 63D, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: flung out. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: did not resign, he was He was flung out. And so, Mr. Chairman, I am going to say again, and I will repeat what r have said so often in this House,and r could not care a damn whether the press reports it or not, whether they are interested enough to look under the rocks, to look at the can of worms that has been opened up several times, not only once, any number of times in any number of reports by the Auditor General, that we just came through seven years of corruption in this Province, seven yea~s of corruption, Mr.

Chairman, that cannot go unnoticed, that cannot be swept under the rug, and no evidence before us, no assurance given us by the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) that the public treasury is now being adequately protected. Everybody laughed the other day when they read Wick Collins' column about the Norma and Gladys, the trips she made to Europe that cost, I would estimate, although we have never been able to get any figures in this House, I would estimate that the Norma and Glad~ has cost the taxpayers of Canada and Newfoundland nothing under $2.5 million to $3 million.

That $2.5 million to $3 million could certainly be put to better use. But we cannot get an accounting, Mr. Chairman. And members in government just laugh at Wick Collins when he says, 'Well, the Opposition are making the government look good. They should be asking questions about this, this and this'. Well, we have been asking questions for at least five years. I have put questions on the Order Paper, I have asked questions here in the Oral Question Period about the accounting o! the expenditure of public money on that foolish Norma and Gladvs escapade 1659

March 25, 1980, Tape 630, Page 3 -- apb MR. NEARY: and so far the government has refused to give it to us. Refused to give it to us! Now, are we being negative, Sir? Are we trying to smear the government? Are we doing our jobs? or should we just sit here with our fingers in our mouths and say, 'No, that is all right, all the publicity, all the parties they had, all the booz .e parties they had, all the souvenirs they gave away, all this sort of thing, that is none of the public's business, tha ·t is only their money we are spending.' We have been unable to get, Mr.

Chairman, the names of those who received grants and loans from the Rural Development Authority. Up to this moment we have not had a list since 1973, seven years ago, and the government is using it the same as they used the Fisheries Loan Board, for pork barrelling. 1660

Mllrch 25, 1980 Tape No.631 EL - 1 !'..R. S • NEARY : What are they ashamed of? Anybody that comes to the government to look for a loan or a grant kr..ows that his name is likely to be tabled in this House. It is public money. And what are they ashamed of? Why do they not put the i.nfo%11\ation on the table? I:f it is straight and above-board and honest and nothing crooked about it, nobody is going to be hurt. Why do they hide it, Mr. Chairman. Why do they hide this inform- ation? What are they ashamed of? There we are now asked to -approve another $300,000,000.

And information we have been asking for for five or six years, we are still unable to get. My hon. friend has been quizzing the Minister of Fisheties about the Fisheries Loan Board. MR. RIDEOUT: It is only names. MR. S. NEARY: That is right. And the Minister of Fisheries keeps making, keeps getting kind of snarky with my hon. friend and he let it slip out this afternoon that S25,0oo,ooo was spent prior to the last Provincial election. Be said, well, you know, he sort of indicated, w~t $25,000,000? No wonder we got them fishermen off the Fisheries Lo~ Board . Was it the fishermens' fault, Mr. Chai.rman?

The Minister of Fisheries can get up and do all the fancy stick-handling and fancy figure skating on thin ice that he wants and his own crowd can applaud him, pound on their desks all they want everytime he gives a smart-allecky answer in return to a question from this side of the House. But the fact remains, Sir, that the people are not getting the information $Specially the fishermen about the Fisheries Loan Board that they are entitled to. And as a result, Mr.

Chairman, here we are on the eve of the fishing season Etartinr;r up 1 and no infoxmation about whether or not loans are going to be approved. ------~ --?"-­ ' 1661

Mar c!\ 25, 1980 Tap e No . 631 EL - 2 HR. S. NEARY : It is shameful, Sir, it is contemptible and I am surprised that the Premier, who is trying t:o portray the image of honesty, of integrity, of levelling with the people, of being open with the people, still refusing to give us a straight answer or have his ministers give us a straight answer. I cannot complain about the Premier. Sometimes I get pretty straight answers from him but I cannot say the same about his ministers. AN HON. MEMBER: Twisting again. MR. S. NEARY: I am not twisting again, I am telling the truth. And I would say thank God for Wick Collins.

He is about the only one left in the Province, and I do not know if that is a compliment or that we have sunk pretty low, but he is the only one left who gives a straight commentary on the political activities of this Province. AN liON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. THOMS: You will get your Show and Tell, do not worry. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Chair.nan, the hon. gentlaman has a right to speak in this debate the same as anybody else, and I hope he will get up and participate - Mr. Chairman, there are so many things that I could talk about this afternoon, but I am only just getting warmed up.

We will be back at it again when we get to the subheads. When we get to the subheads, we will ~ve our ten minutes over and over again and as often as we want. But I want to say this, Mr. Chairman, that I agree with the Leader of the Opposition, that I think it is shocking, it is shocking that the government should come in two or three days before the main budget is brought down with an Interim Supply Bill that should have been brought before this House many days ago, many days ago, Sir, and now 1662

March 25, 1980 Tape No. 632 SD - 1 MR. S. NEARY: we are told by the Government P-ouse Leader (Mr. W. Marshall) that the Budget will come down on Friday and there will be no debate on the Budget for at least two weeks. They all got their reservations booked now. They are all headed for sunny climates and we can not debate the Budget for another two weeks. MR, D. JAMIESON: They have got to get out of town. MR. S. NEARY: You would not know, Mr. Chairman, but we did not have any major problems facing the ordinary people of this Province. I think the government has become, in a short while, very arrogant.

I think they have shewn in this particular instance nothing but contempt for the people. I think the House should carry on, bring down the Budget on Friday, take our Easter recess and start up again. MR. L. THOMS: That is what they intend to do. MR. S. NEARY : No, that is not what they intend to do. They are going to shut her down for two weeks. MR. L. THOMS: It will be more than two weeks. MR. S. NEARY: More than two weeks, it will be slightly over two weeks 1 and they probably can not wait to get out of here to climb aboard the jets and head South. Mr.

Chairman, I would like to find out from the hen. gentleman when he rises in his place to give us some information on this Interim Supply Bill, if he will tell us if there is going to be an accounting done of Executive Council estimates for the whole Moores 1 years, from 1972 up to March 17th or whenever he resigned in 1979. Give us an accounting of the whole Moores 1 years-and I am not talking about a witch hunt. Do an accounting on some of the points that have been raised in this House and tell us, Mr. Chairman, whether or not there were -. leaks in Cabinet?

Tell us whether or not there was a rip._off on Labrador Linerboard - $500 million of taxpayers 1 mcney - tell us 1663

March 25, l9BO Tape No. 632 SD - 2 MR. S. NEl\RY : whether the police investigation into EGRET, that offshore company in Bermuda where secret co~ssions were paid for every ton of Labr~dor linerboard that was sold, tell us whether that police investigation is finished ~~d what the results of it are? T!!R. L. THOMS : He is talking about graft and corruption now. · MR. S. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, tell us whether or not it has been possible for the government to audit the accounts of International Forest Products, a company incorporated down in Boston to sell Labrador linerhoard, if it has been possible to do an audit of t.~eir accounts to see ff this Province received every cent they were entitled to from the company that marketed Labrador linerboard? Mr. Chairman, if hon. members think for one minute that all of this stuff is going to be swept under the rug then they had better thinl<". again. The lid is off now, the can of worms has been opened.

It is time now that we took a look at some of these other matters that were raised in this House. It might be a good idea to open up the colour television case again. colour Mr. Chairman, twenty-odd televisions were delivered one Christmas in this Province. we only had one investigation and that was into the fonner - .- ._ ... MR. THOMS: And that; vas before cable. MR. S. NEARY: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. S. NEARY: And that vas before cable. Oh, oh. Twenty-two colour tel.evisions were delivered and, you know, Mr.

Chairman, at least two of these colour televisions 'irere delivered to one hon. gentleman who is still a minister in that government - two colour televisions. 1664

March 25, 1980 Tape No. 633 DW - 1 MR. S. NEARY: .lind that gentleman received a $1,000 doghouse from the gentleman that he managed to get the contract for the first phase of water and sewerage down in Pouch Cove - AN HON . MEMBER: Are you agair.st (inaudible) down there. MR. S. NEkRY: Mr. Chairman, I am against corruption and skulduggery of any kind especially when it comes to the Public Treasury. And the hon. gentleman should not treat it so lightly. Mr. Chairman, I want to ask Your Honour a question: Mr.

Chairman, sho~ld we in this House , if we have evidence of corruption and skul- duggery,whether it happened last year, the year before last involving the Public Treasury,should we now sit back and just forget it as if it never happened? Is that what we should do, Mr. Chairman, is that what we should do? I can hear the press, 'No, there is nothing new ·in that ,boy 4 he is down there shooting off his face again '. Well 1 I have made some pretty strong statements here this after- noon. I said the Moores administration-in case it did not ~egister with them-was the most ccorr~pt in Canadian history.

That is not bad, that is not a bad statement, Nothing new in it! All you have to do is turn over the rock of Labrador Linerboard ,if you want to find out how corrupt the administration was and :.how corrupt George McLean was,and he vas ~ammed in the middle of every little deal that Frankie baby was involved in, every little deal. MR. L. THOMS: He was not •ast to jam. MR. NEARY: No 1he was not easy to jam. Be aeeded three seats on Air Canada to get him around. 1665

March 25 1980 MR. STAGG: " not in here. MR. S. NEARY: Tape NO. 633 DW - 2 Now raise that outside the House, boy, Say itoutside the House? I was elected to speak in this House. Mr. Chairman, the hon. gentleman,! know,is treating it lightly but we have enough evidence now before us to warrant an accounting, if nothing else, an accountinq of all the ~oney that was paid out to Mr. George McLean :• what it was paid out for, whether or not there was politics involved, whether he was - we have a right to know, Mr.

Shairman, and I have flung this out on the floor of this ..Souse so often 1 we have a right to know why there is '$3 million of Newfoundland's money over in a bank in Hamburg, Germany that this government has notllifted a finger to collect.and why not? Khy not? Almost $3 million in a bank in Hamburg belonging to Lab- rador Linerboard . , belonging to the people of this Province. And have we been able to get an explanation of it in this House 1 Mr. Chairman? I asked the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) for the contract with that company,! asked the liquidator for a copy of the contract with that company, I wrote the company and I asked them for a copy of the contract, and after several months of correspondence back and forth across the Atlantic-the minister's department, the liquidator, Labrador Linerboara- what did I get? I got brushed off by saying the RCMP baa seized all the documents and you will have to go to them. I wrote them several weeks ago and I have not got a reply yet. Can you imagine?

An elected member of the people of this Province asking for a simple document like a contract with a company in Hamburg to market Labrador linerboard and I cannot get it. And this is the government that is going tollevel and be honest and open with the people! I think it is shameful, Mr. Speaker, and I would like to know before I vote for this Interim Supply Bill what the minister has done about that $2.5 or $3 million dollars that is in that bank in Hamburg that we have been 1666

March 25, 1980 MR. S. NEA~'f: mation in this Gouse on. Tape No. 633 "'B - 3 able to get very little infer­ What is being done about it? Has the 1667

Maz:::il 25 , 1980 Tape No. 634 GH-1 MR. NEARY: money been recovered? Is the matter settled or have the government just ignored it as they did up to a few weeks ago? So, Mr. Chairman, I have a lot more to say about this Interim Supply Bill yet. I would like to find out about Grade 12. The Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) seems to be procrastinating on that for some reason. You would not know but we were pioneering Grade 12 in Canada. I have heard so many foolish arglli!lents and obstructions thrown in the way of Grade 12 so that it would make you laugh - an ignoramus like myself - it would make you laugh.

You would not know but we never had Grade 12 in Newfoundland before, and we had it at two colleges in Newfoundland at one time. They have Grade 13 across Canada, and we cannot even - AN HON. MEMBER: One province. MR. NEARY: - in on~e province - and we cannot even get Grade 12 in Newfoundland. We have to have committees studying this aspect of it, that aspect of it. We have to listen to that one. We have to - MR. THOMS: MR. NEARY: MR. THOMS: in the Cabinet. She cannot get - No. She cannot get anything through the bullies MR.

NEARY: No wonder we are the laughingstock of the rest of canada. we do not even know how to put Grade 12 into the education system in this Province. AN HON. MEMBER: How about two Grades 6? MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I wil.l come back to some of the other points th.at I want to talk about later on. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. Na>U!Y: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: Pardon? (Inaudible) . Grade 6 twice, that is right, yes. But, Mr. Chairman, I am not satisfied.

Well, actually, there was no explanation given by the minister other than he just wanted us to vote for this without any justification at all., just go ahead and vote for it. 'Give us $300 mil.lion and we wil.l go out and spend it' - did not 1668

March 25, 1980 Tape No. 634 GH-2 MR. NEARY: tell us how they are going to spend it. No explanation. Well, that is not good enough, Sir, and I think that is an insult to the intellige~ce of members of tl1is House. MR. CHAIRMAJ.'I: (Baird) MR. CARTER: The hen. member for St. John's North. Mr. Chairman, as I understand the rules of this House, if I speak for a few minutes that then gives the member for Lapoile another chance to get up and speak and I would like to hear him say some more, but I have a few questions I would like to address to him.

When the Estimates were heard in the sub-committees, the han. gentleman did not appear. Certainly he did not appear in the committee that I chaired and I unde~stand he did not appear in any of the sub­ committees. You know, it is a good thing that hypocrisy is ~~e homage that vice pays to virtue, because I suggest that the han. gentleman is a hypocrite. If he were really interested, if he were really interested in information, he would have come into those committees. ~he rules, ~~ey were extremely flexible. There was no limit, no practical limit to the amount of time that could be spent on any one subject.

It is true that an individual member only could speak for ten minutes at a time, but all another member had to do was clear his throat and this gave him another ten minutes and another ten minutes and another ten minutes. The various committees were extremely flexible in the way they would

schedule the sittings, so that any hon. member who wanted to appear at all three sessions would have been able to do so if he had given a sufficient amount of advance notice. So I suggest that the hon. member for Lapoile, his attitude is extremely hypocritical. I daresay he intends to boycott the sub-committee hearings again this year, ~1d I think the hon. Leader of the Opposition should be ashamed of him, utterly ashamed of him, and I hope he takes him to task in their caucus. MR. NEARY: Would the han. member give us a spirited defence of the former premier? MR. CARTER: It would be easier to give the hon.

House a defence of the former premier than to give them one of the former former premier, that is for sure, considerably easier. 1669

!-!arch 25, 1980 Tape !lo. 634 Gi:! -3 MR. c.;u_•I'E.l~: I would ve_-y much like co hear the me~ber for Lapoile c;ec up ar.d explain co us why it •.;as chat he noc onl:; boycotted ~~e meetings of c~e sub-commictee on the Sudgec last year, but probaOly intends co co the s~e ehi~c; chis :ear . Therefo re, I suggese co t:he members of ~'te press 1oho are obviously listening t~at ~ae m~r for Lapoile (~1r . Neary) is noc serious . All he coes is get up and make a lo t of sound and fury, and in addition co some oi t:he charge s that he makes that may have some sub stan ce ,mo st of them are extr emely ill-founded .l\;:d , upon serious L'lvestigacion, have bee ~ 1670

March 25, 1980, Tape 635, Page 1 -- apb MR. J. CARTER: found to be full of nothing but hot air. So I should like to take my seat and give the hon. member a chance to get up and explain why he does not take these matters more seriously. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. CHAIR!-1AN (Baird) : Grand Bank. MR. THOMS: Hear, hear: The hon. the member for Mr. Chairman, I would be very surprised if my friend from LaPoile (Mr.Neary) would lower himself to come in and explain anything to the member for St. John's North (Mr.Carter), anything. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR.

THOMS: A member of this House who just a few days ago had the audacity to sit in his seat, he did not have the guts to stand in his place, and call my friend from the Strait of Belle Isle - MR. STAGG: A point of order, ~J. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: A point of order. MR. STAGG: Mr. Chairman, we are discussing an Interim Supply Bill here. This is obviously irrelevant what this han. gentleman is referring to. He is being engaged in debate that is totally irrelevant. MR. F.B.ROWE: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Trinity - Bay de Verde. To that point of ordez, The hon. the member for MR. F.B.ROWE: Mr.

Chairman, I would suggest that the hon. member for Gzand Bank (Mr.Thorns) be given the same latitiude as the han. the member for St. John's Nozth (Mr.Carter) when he is speaking. MR. CHAIRMAN : The han. the member for Lapoile. 1671

March 25, 1980, Tape 635, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, that is not a point of order because Your Honour knows full well, and the government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) knows that the debate that we are now into is on the resolution, it is a far-reaching debate, wide- ranging debate, it is almost the same as the Throne Speech debate or the budget debate and my han. friend is completely in order. So I would ask the member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) to restrain himself and let my han. friend carry on with his address. MR. CHAIRMAN (Baird): With regard to the point of order, there is no point of order.

But I would suggest to han. members that we are straying somewhat from the bill and I would suggest that we get back on track. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. MARSHALL: (Inaudible) the point of order. MR. CHAIRMA..~: On another point of order. MR. MARSHALL: No. The hon. gentleman, when he was speaking, he referred to the han. the member i for St. John's North (Mr. Carter), he made the statement that, 'He has not got the guts' to do something. Now I refer Your Honour to Beauchesne, page 107, which is - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) honourable. MR.

MARSHALL: No, it is not a real honourable word, it is a word that is unparliamentary. It is an unparliamentary word. MR. JAMIESON: The Arts Council would approve of it. MR. MARSHALL: The Arts Council might approve of it but I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the persistent use of words such as this is a mode and a method by which the proceedings of the House and Committee can get out of order and I know the hon. member 1672

March 25, 1980, Tape 635, Page 3 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: withdraw it anyway. MR. THOMS: would probably want to Mr. Chairman, I will certainly be only too happy to withdraw the accusation 'that he does not have the guts' and say he does not have the intestinal fortitude to stand in his place. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh ~ l>!R. THOMS: Are you going to rule on that point of order? That was a point of order. MR. STAGG: Is the han. gentleman finished? SOME HON. MEMBERS : AN HON. MEMBER: on it. MR. CHAIRMAN (Baird) : Oh, oh~ The Chairman has ruled Order, please!

With regard to the point of order 1I think the han. gentleman withdrew the statement in question and now that clears up the point of order. Grand Bank. MR. THOMS: Chairman. MR. STAGG: right way this time boy. AN HON. MEMBER: might. MR. THOMS: The han. the member for Thank you very much, Mr. Now just start it the If you would shut up he I doubt if the hon. the member for Stephenville has any intestinal fortitude either. MR. STAGG: Yes,boy, I have. MR.. BENNE'rT : You sure do not show it. MR. THOMS: He certainly does not show very much common sense when speaking in ~s Rouse. As 1673

March 25, 1980, Tape 635, Page 4 -- apb MR. THOMS: a matter .of fact, if I ever decided to run against the hon. member in StephenVille what I would do is I would go and get Hansard and I would copy his speeches and I would send them to every voting member in his district and I doubt if. he would get the nomination, let alone win the election. MR. STAGG: (Inaudible) SOMB BON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HR . T HO~ ..S: Mr.

Chairman, I have said before in this House and I will say it again, and I will probably say it again in the future, that it is amazing the a=ogance, particularly of the ministers of th .is particular administration. MR. STAGG: Ah come on! MR. THOMS: Arrogance! The absolute utter arrogance. My heart goes out to the Minister of Education (Ms Verqe) and particularly to the Minister of Consumer Affairs (P.rs. Newhook) . My heart goes out to them. Can you imagine trying to get Grade XII through that lot? MS. VERGE: We have (inaudible) MR. THOMS: Through that lot? Do you get a chance to speak at all in Cabinet?

Do you actually get a chance to speak at all or do they just brush you aside? 1674

March 25, 1980 Tape No. 636 EL - 1 MR. S • NEARY : Status of women. Only ~~e Status of Women. MR. L. THOMS : - the same way the Minister of Health (Mr. House) this afternoon, in my questions. Can you imagine the audacity. we have a doctor at the Waterford Hospital - MR. F. STAGG: ~· CHAIRMAN (Baird) : MR. F. STAGG: A point of order, ll'.r. Chairman. A point of order. This hen. gentleman obviously has nothing to say. You have already indicated to him earlier that he should become relevant. He gets up, persists in the same kind of irrelevance and irreverance, Mr.

Chairman, so I think he should be ruled out of order and let somebody have something to say who is going to be relevant, like me. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. CHAIRMAN: member for Grand Bank. MR. L. THOMS : MR. CHAIRMAN: order? MR. L. THOMS : MR. CHAIRMAN : Oh, oh! To the point of order, the hon. the Have you ruled? Do you want to speak on the point of You go ahead and rule. To the point of order, there is nc point of order.

But I would like to remind all hon. gentlemen that we have allowed some degree of flexibility, which I think may be getting out of hand, so I would remind all hen. gentlemen of the rule of relevancy. MR. STAGG: Almost a point of order. MR. THOMS: Almost a point of order. That is as close as the hon. gentl.eman is ever going to come to a point of order. SOME HON. MEl'mERS: MR. CHAIRMAN: AN HON. MEMBER: be Deputy Speaker. MR. L. THOMS: Oh, oh! Order, pl.ease! Be is frustrated because he never qot to Mr.

Speaker, I was speaking of the arrogance of this administration, an arrogance that is made quite plain and quite clear. 1675

~larch 2 5 , :!. 98\) Ta pe N"o . SJ6 R.r.. - 2 HR. L. T!-!0.!-'.S: by the fact that they bring in a bill saying, "Here, boys, I want $300 million dollars. What is $300 million dollars? Let us get it voted on, let us get it out. 1 Well, Mr. Chairman, $3 million dollars is a lot in my district. $3 million dollars, ten percent - or is it one percent, or wl::!at? $300 million staggers me. I was elected to this hen. House on June 18th. of this year. Since that time there has been, -what? - ~1,000 million, is it? A Sl,OQO million in Interim Supply gone through this House. We had S600 million in the last session.

And now here we are, two days from the budget and we are asked to approve $300 million. MR. STAGG: So you can get paid. MR. NEARY: Oh, come on now. Do not be so low. Do not be so low. MR. L. THOMS: If that is the reason, if that is the reason - AN HON. MEMBER: What else do you expect from (inaudible) . MR. CHAIRMAN (Baird): order, please! MR· NEARY: Ignorance! MR. JAMIESON: Do not pay any attention to him. MR. L. THOMS: Mr . Chairman, talk about saying things outside the House - MR. STAGG: Hold your (inaudible). Your money is in there the same as mine, that will change your mind. .MR. L.

THOMS: I am telling you, there is not $300 million dollars in there for me and to be quite frank with you I do not know wha .t the S300 million dollars is in there for. I mean, there is the scedule. Department: Consolidated Funds Services $140,000; Mines and Energy S7.5 million. That is going to give the Minister of Mines and Energy a good weekend in New York, $7.5 million. MR. FLIGHT: OVer there? MR. L. THOMS: Well, as far as I know. I am not given any information, any liiOre than I was given the information when I asked the question of the Minister of Health. 1676

Marc h 25, 19 80 Tape No. 636 RA-3 MR.L.'I'!iOMS: You do not get any information. That is why I got it on the Late Show, Mr. Chairman, because I did not get a satisfactory answer. And what do we see? We see the $300 million dollar Finance Minister get up this afternoon and present this very little, if any1 I did not hear any real explanation of what it was all about. I mean, here am I, you know, I am fairly well educated. MR. STAGG: Are you? MR.L.THOMS: But $300 million dollars is far beyond my comprehension, certainly without some explanation of what it is all about. And what do we get?

The hon. gentleman from Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) is so smart, why does he not get up and tel-l us what the $300 million dollars if for, what is contained in that $300 million? MR. CARTER: (Inaudible) MR:.L.THOMS: The hQn. gentleman from St. John's North , (Mr.J.Carter) when we debate the Arts Council Bill, will have his time in the House for his Show and Tell. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR.L.THOMS: Mow, look, actually if you wanted to, if you wanted · to, you know, the rule of relevancy - the hon. gentleman spent three years in the Chair and learned nothing - but you can, if you want to stand up this afternoon i677

March 25, 1980 Tape No. 637 SD -1 MR. THOMS: and show us the pretty pictures you have over there to show us if that is what you want to do. You are not going to get cheated, you will have your time but - MR. STAGG: (Inaudible) unparliamentary. MR. THOMS: Well, the word 'guts', you know, is certainly as parliamentary as traitor; Judas Iscariot, it is as parliamentary as that one. I have yet to look across the other side of the House and call anyone a traitor but I can not say that for that side of the House. MR. STAGG: Let me say this about that (inaudible) . MR.

THOMS: You can say what you like about what you want. HR. F. STJ>GG: All the heavyweights are (inaudible). MR. THO MS: Mr. Chairman, it just is not fair. You know, you sit in your first session of the House and you vote in favor of $600 million in Interim Supply without any explanation because that is the way you think the thing is done. By the time you get to the second session and somebody pokes $300 miilion under your nose,you sort of feel obligated to question it, to find out what it is all about: And I hope that the minister when he concludes this debate will give me a little more information.

We have to vote for it because if not we will get the same situation as we had in the last House when the HOuse Leader comes running across the House saying, "Look, if we do not approve this this afternoon the bank is going to bounce the Civil Service cheques." And we certainly would not want the Civil Service to go unpaid. I certainly do not want the welfare recipients in this Province to be unpaid and this is what is going to happen if we do not vote for it. But we are forced to vote for it, we have no choice but to vote for it. There is a shotgun to our head and this is unfair. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR.

THOMS: This is a shotgun approach. 1678

March 25, 1980 Tape No. 637 SD - 2 MR . ;::. • TP.OMS, A.nd, Mr. Chairman, I resent that. I am sure that Interim Supply could have been brought in days ago. It did not have to be brought in today and tomorrow being Private Members Day, we have Thursday and then Friday afternoon we have got the Budget coming in. Maybe it could not have been brought in but I would like to know why/ I would like to know why the shot~~n is put to !"!" ,' h" ;id., MR. FLIGHT : $140,000 for Mount Scio. MR. L. THOY.S : Before I die that is one thing I would like to know and it is not very much to ask of the Minister of Finance (Dr. J.

Collins) of this Province ,that he give us an explanation of why I am expected to vote for granting supply in the curount $300 million, And that is all I ask, Mr. Chairman. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. CHAIRMAN (Baird) : The hen. Minister of Finance. DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman MR. D. JAMIESON: Excuse me. DR. J. COLLINS : A point of order? MR. D. JAMIESON: Mr. Chairman, no, just clarification because we have been in such a tangle here on this this afternoon.

Since there does seem to be some confusion as to whether the resolution part of the debate is separate from the individual item, is the Minister of Finance now, in a sense, talking on the resolution or would the House Leader (Mr. w. Marshall) be agreeable - we would be - to let the resolution,if it has to be passed, pass,and let us get on to the - whether it is clause by clause or item by item. So that means we - MR. W. MARSHALL: Then we call item by item and we are into Collllli.ttee. MR. D. JAMIESON: And the no:rmal tillle periods, etc ., will apply. MR. W.

MARSHALL: wa were in it before except we gave latitude 1 you see . SOME BON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 1679

!"..arch 25, 1980 MR. 0. JAMIESoN: Q. W. MARSHIILL : we can call the heads. ~. D. JAMIESON: MR. S. NEARY: C!laizman. MR. CBAI'IeWf: (Baizd) · Tape No. 637 so- 3 Just to ~e it c;1aar, okay. Yes. '!'hat is riqht DOW, and then call the resolution. 'rhe point has been 1M de, ~. On mot ·ion, msolution carried. On motion, enaC:tinq cla~e c:·~ied. On motion, title carried. 1680

March 25, 1980 HR. CHAIRMAN (BAIRD): l>1R. NEARY: Tape No. 638 IB-1 Shall Head (

l) carry? Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins), Sir, could tell us the state of the provincial debt at the morr2nt? I believe last year we were told that the provincial debt was $3 billion. Where do we stand now and is there any provision made in Interim Supply to pay off any of the provincial debt? And what is r~~pening now regarding the exchange on the Canadian dollar versus the American dollar? Are we borrowing in the Un~ted States this year,or is all our borrowing done now in Canada and in Europe?

I am trying to determine what effect the exchange of the American dollar is having on our borrowing in the United States if indeed we are borrowing. And I believe the hon. gentleman told us the other day about the credit rating. That is in the process of being sorted out right now and perhaps the minister might indicate if he anticipates any change in our credit rating this year,in this financial yaar and