Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 48A (32nd Legislature, 2nd Session)

32-2-48a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second Legislature Leglslatlve Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 31-32 Elizabeth II Publl•IHKJ under the authority of The Honourable D. Jame• Walding Spealcer VOL. XXXI No. 48A - 2:00 p.m., MONDAY, 18 APRIL, 1983. Prmted by the Offlce ot the 0-s PrinlfN. Province of Meni#Oba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon. Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J.

Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHI LLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vic SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompson La Verendrye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ellice Churchill St. Bon iface Riel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Robli n-Russell St. Norbert Assini boia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flon Interlake Lac du Bonnet St.

Vital Party NDP NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP IND NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP PC PC NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP PC NDP NDP NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP NDP NDP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 18 April, 1983. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Prese nting Reports by Standing and Special Comm ittees . MINIS TERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines. HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to table the Report of the Petroleum Branch of the Department of Energy and Mines called the Oil Activity Review for 1982. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Economic Development. HON. M. SMITH: Mr.

Speaker, I beg leave to table the Annual Repor t of the Manitoba Hor serac ing Commission for the year ending December 31, 1982. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. M.B. DOLIN: Mr.

Speaker, it's my great pleasure to table in this House the new pub lication of my department the long awaited Newcomers' Guide to Manitoba developed by the Immigration and Settlement Branch, to provide immigrants to our country, who are resident in Manitoba, with a comprehensive source of information on such topics as government services, safety in the home on the road or at work, Canadian customs and norms, and the democratic rights and responsibi lities of residents of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. V. SCHROEDER introduced Bill No. 26,

An Act to amend the Fina ncial Admin istration Act. (R ecommend ed by Her Honour the Lieutenant Governor) HON. B. URUSKI introduc ed Bill No. 43, The Transportation of Dangerous Goods Act;

Loi sur le tr anspor t des marchand ises da ngereuses. (R ecommended by Her Honour the Lieutenant Governor) MR. H. CARROLL introduced Bill No. 56,

An Act to amend The Brandon Charter. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK introduced Bill No. 57,

An Act to amend The Co-operatives Act. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before we reach Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where we have 12 exchange students under the direction of Mr. Westley Stevens. These students are from outside of Canada and are visiting here on an exchange basis. There are 45 students of Grade 9 standing from the Earl Grey School under the direction of Mr. Yarmie. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Economic Development. There are 33 students of the Garden Valley Collegiate at Winkler.

They are from Grades 9 and 11 under the direction of Mr. Hamerling and Mr. Pauls. On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister. We have a number of very serious and imp ortant ques tions to pl ace to the Min ister of Agriculture concerning the plight of farmers with respect to farm financing and bankruptcies. Would the First Minister advise the House whether or not the Minister of Agriculture will be here later during question period to answer questions?

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, it's my information that the Minister of Agriculture should be here at approxi mately 2:30. Bankrupt co-operatives - back wages MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Honourable Minister of Co operatives, and I would like to ask the Minister what action he has taken to ensure that directors of bankrupt co-operatives are not held personally responsible for the wages of employees of that co-operative. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, this particular matter that was brought to my attention only last Tuesday or Wednesday by the Member for Virden is presently before the Labour Board and I don't think I'd like to deal with the specifics of it. But I perhaps should remind the Member for Virden that it was his government that brought about changes to the Act in 1980 that provided 1795

Monday, 18 April, 1983 for wages to be subordinate to other assets of a firm that had found itself in financial trouble. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Speaker, is it then the intention of the Minister to do nothing on this until the Labour Board has held its hearing on the 25th of April? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: It is not my intention to interfere with the operations of the Labour Board. MR. H.

GRAHAM: Is it the intention then of the Minister to protect those people that serve their community well and freely in a voluntary capacity, is it his intention just to let them suffer undue hardship and possible financial hardship from the actions of the Labour Board, without any movement on his part to protect them? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, until the Labour Board makes its decision, we don't know what the problems are that we have to deal with.

I should also mention that the legislation, as it applies to co-ops, also applies to all other corporations in the province. Co-ops are not specifically designated as a target group. I should also remind the Member for Virden that directors can obtain directors' liabil ity insurance and apparently such was not done in the case of Birdtail Equipment Co-op. That's rather unfortunate, but that was their responsibilit y. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I want the record to note that I, at no time, ever mentioned any particular co-op.

It was the Minister who mentioned the name of a co-op and I should note also that it was his government in 1975 that passed The Co-op Act. My question to the Honourable Minister is that the bill that he just introduced, would that have any changes to The Co-operative Act affecting directors and their liabili ties? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: No, those changes will not impact on this particular situation. Brandon General Hospital Patient Waiting List MR. SPEAKER: The Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable First Min ister.

I would ask him whether he can confirm that increasing numbers of patients in Brandon and western Manitoba are turning to private medical services, private medical treatment and private medical clinics, both inside and outside of Manitoba because they cannot receive atte ntion at the overcrowded and overburdened Brandon General Hospital? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, if the member is referring to the Brandon situation, that is a situation that is presently being reviewed by the Manitoba Health Services Commission because there appears to have been an anomaly which has occurred in the last two or three months, insofar as the numbers on the waiting list pertaining to surgery. The Manitoba Health Services Commission is investigating the Brandon situation at this time. If the question is relating to the general overall provincial situation, I would want to take that question as notice for the Minister of Health. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, with respect to the Brandon and Westman situation specifically, can the First Min ister confirm that increasing num bers of patient s are turnin g to pr ivate med ical services elsewhere? Reports indicate that they include facilities in Houston, Edmonton and Toronto, because they cannot get into the Brandon General. HON. H. PAW LEY: Mr. Speaker, I would have to take that question as notice. As I mentioned earlier, there is a waiting list pertaining to the Brandon Hospital as a result of a recent cropping up of a sudden increase by way of the waiting list for surgeries at the Brandon Hospital. Mr.

Speaker, there will be a report from the Manitoba Health Services Commission to the Minister as a result of inv estigation they'r e unde rtaking pertaining to this, what appears to be, a short-term anomaly. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the Honourable First Minister whether he can confirm that, between 1978 and the present time, the surgical waiting list at Brandon General has risen as high as reports today indicate that it has risen, and that is from a total of 470 patients to a total of 1,070, which represents considerably more than a "topping up or cropping up of a short-term anomoly. " Can the First Minister confirm that the waiting list for surgery has increased from 470 to 1,070? HON. H. PAWLEY: I don't have the numerical data. I would have to take that as notice. MR. l. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, would the Honourable First Minis ter advise me and advise Manit obans generally, as to what action should be taken at the present time with respect to admissions for surgery and treatment at Brandon General? The First Minister says that the Health Services Commission is preparing a report. In the meantime, what would he recommend that patients requiring surgery and attention and care in the Brandon area do? Should they be turning to these private medical services in other parts of the country? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, clearly this is a matter that can be more beneficially dealt with, insofar as the honourable member is concerned, once the Manitoba Heal lh Services Comm ission has comp leted its investigation as to the anomoly that has occurred at the Brandon Hospital and when that report then is made to the Minister of Health. 1796

Monday, 18 April, 1983 MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I think that there certainly is merit in that suggestion, except there seems to be a considerable immediate problem for a great number of people in the area. We will be dealing at length with the su bject in the Est ima tes of the Department of Health, but for the moment, Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the First Minister can offer any assurance to this House and to people in the Brandon and Westman region that, notwithstanding the fact that the Health Services Commission is working on a report, emergency contingency measures are being studied by his government to ensure that the difficulty is addressed and that emergency cases can expect attention in Brandon General at the present time. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'm not aware of emergencies not being dealt with. I would take the balance of the question as notice. Bicycle Safety MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R.

DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I wanted to direct a question to the Minister of Highways. In view of an Information Services release from his department and himself indicating a 7.7 percent increase in accidents among bicycle riders to 292 last year, and a 12.8 percent increase in injuries; in view of the fact that he has a Bicyle Safety Educ ation Program for elementary schools, I would like to ask him whether he has or would consider a program for adult riders. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways. HON. S. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, I'm not familiar with the issue that the member is raising but I'll certainly take notice of it and report back to him. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Minister then, whether he would consider impl ementing a program for bicycle safety for adult riders? There are apparently programs put on by his department for young students and also some programs for perhaps encouraging the use of seat belts and helmets. I ask him whether he would consider one for another large segment, and a growing segment of the population, those who ride bicycles. HON. S. USKIW: Well, Mr.

Speaker, one can always consider expansion of programs but one has to look at that in light of the finances that are available, and at this particular moment there aren't any. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I'd also ask the Minister whether he would consider advising or encouraging the law enforcement authorities to implement the present law which requires all such riders at night to use lights on their bicycles. I think if one were to check, a very small microscopic percentage do. Would he, in fact, ask that the present law be enforced? HON. S. USKIW: Well, I believe, Mr.

Speaker, that last point really has to do with the Attorney-General's Department and the law enforcement system in the province. MR. R. DOERN: I'd ask the Attorney-General, Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that the present law is not enforced or rarely enforced, would he ask the Winnipeg police and others to enforce it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: I'll take the question as notice. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Sp eaker. My quest ion is for the Min ister of Hi ghways and Transportation.

Could the Mi nister confirm that the statistics quoted by the MLA for Elmwood, that the Minister took as notice, were statistics that appeared in a recent press release by the Minister? HON. S. USKIW: Well, that could very well be, Mr. Speaker, but I don't recall what is contained in all of the press releases that we issue from time to time. Unemployment rate MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Labour. In view of recent statements by officials at Canada Emp loyment and Imm igra tion Department, Mr.

Speaker, could the Minister of Labour confirm that the unemployment rate for Manitoba for the rest of the 1980s is predicted to be well above 10 percent? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. M.B. DOLIN: I believe that the Conference Board figu res on pred ictions for unemplo yment rates in Manitoba were covered, I think, during my Estimate debate and I did indicate what those Conference Board figures are. Our Research Branch does publish what those Conference Board rates are and we have been consistently under those rates.

That gives us some small measure of pleasur e at our abi lit y to keep the unemployment rate down in Manitoba. The question that the member refers to about whether the Conference Board is predicting that our rate will be over 10 percent - yes, and this month we are below 10 percent. So much for predictions. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, in the booklet that the Minister of Labour has sent around, which the Premier has endorsed, there is a statement on page 170 that there is never a government guarantee of jobs for everyone. My question to the First Minister, Mr.

Speaker, is he now repudiating the promises, which he made in the fall of 1981, promising job security to Manitobans? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, if the member would re-examine the premise of his remarks, he would see that his question was based upon a false presumption. 1797

Monday, 18 April, 1983 Workers Compensation Board - Report MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, we believe it was false too. Mr. Speaker, my final question is to the Minister reponsible for the Workers' Compensation Board. The Workers' Compensation Board Report should have been filed in the House by March 31st. Could the Minister indicate if and when he'll be filing it? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. HON. J. COWAN: I'd anticipa te that the report will be filed this week, probably mid-week. Westman Media Co-op - CRTC MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I have a question to the Minister of Communications. In view of the fact, Sir, that Westman Media Co-op is in the process of applying to the CRTC to deliver legal American television signals to their customers, in Western Ma nitoba, can the Minis ter offer some assurance to the Westman Media Co-op customers that the current fare of satellite US television programming will not be disrupted until they can deliver the so-called legal programming? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Cultural Affairs. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As I ind icated to the mem ber when he raised simila r questions some weeks ago, the pro vinc e will do whatever needs to be done to support and to allow the citizens of those communities in Western Manitoba to receive comparable service to those communities in Winnipeg.

I have just recently become aware, in fact earlier today, of the situation wherein Westman Media Co-op now is applying for the right to bring the television programming down from the Cancom 3 + 1 Service, so I would antici pate if that is concurred with then I would hope that CRTC would not take any further action, given that Westman Media Co-op has indicated that it's prepared to live within the decision of the CRTC. MR. D. ORCHARD: I thank the Minister for that answer.

Could the Minister offer this House, and the customers of Westman Media, the assurance that he will seek from the CRTC a removal of their order to not broadcast that current American television programming that they're using so that the customers may continue on uninterrupted service? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. What is being suggested by the member is something that may well be illegal, because there is an order that has been service with respect to certain legislation.

What I will attempt to do is to suggest to the CRTC that they not enforce that ruling, given that Westman Media Co-op has indicated that it is prepared to live by the decision that has been handed down by the CRTC. Mining industry study MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Energy and Mines.

Approximately a year ago, perhaps a little less, when the mining industry in Northern Manitoba was suffering badly from layoffs, the Minister of Energy and Mines informed the House that there was a federal-provincial study into the cyclical nature of the mining industry being undertaken. The Minister said at that time he hoped to have a report available by September. In view of the deep concern over the future of Lynn Lake, which has been topical during the past week or two, I wonder if the Minister of Energy and Mines could advise us as to any progress on that report or any action which might flow from it? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines. HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, a report was done by the federal-provincial body looking into this matter of the effects of the bus ine ss cyle on mining communities. At the last Mines Ministers' Meeting in St. John, New Brunswick, I again put forward the proposal that the Federal and Provincial Governments jointly develop a national community mining reserve board, or a fund to provide monies to communities that are suffering from the impact of this business cyle on the community, or that are faced with closure because the ore does run out of mines.

This is not a new thing, it's occurred ever since the mining industry began, but no one has been dealing with this particular problem. I put that proposal forward; it's been considered; I have yet to receive full support from the Federal Government and from other Provincial Governments, Mr. Speaker. They were, at that time, taking the approach that mining is an industry that is best left alone, that they were taking a laissez-faire approach and that the private sector should be dealing with this completely on its own. We believe, Mr.

Speaker, that a more concerted effort is required to provide long-term stabilit y, or at least transition assistance, to communities and people living in those communities. I'm hoping now as the recession deepens and as more mining communities are affected across the country that Manitoba's position will gain more support from other provincial governments in Canada and indeed from the Federal Government. Mini ng Communities Reserve fund MR. B. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, despite the seeming unwillingness of others to co-operate, I believe that Manitoba does have a Mining Communities Reserve Fund that has been established for some time. Could the Minister advise the House approximately how much money exists now within that Fund? 1798

Monday, 18 April, 1983 HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, something in the order of $3.5 million to $3.8 million exists in that Fund. Over the course of the last year and a half, some $800,000 has been expended from that Fund to assist the people and the communities of Lynn Lake, Leaf Rapids and Thompson, Manitoba. llllR. B. RANSOM: A final suppl ementary, Mr. Speaker. Would the Minister consider employing that Fund then in dealing with the request from Sherritt Gordon in seeking out a future for Lynn Lake through the development of the Agassiz Gold Reserve. HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr.

Speaker, I have to recheck the legislation. I think the legislation establishing that Fund prohi bits the use of money in that respect but, Mr. Sp eaker, the Manitoba Mi neral Resou rces Corporation has in fact been allocated sufficient funds to enable the Manitoba Mineral Resources Corporation to enter into joint developments with Sherritt Gordon Min es, both with respect to Agassiz and other developments in and around the Lynn Lake area, which I think could go some way to trying to establish a longer term base to the community of Lynn Lake. llllR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for La Verendrye. MR. R.

BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I direct my question to the Minister of Mines, and would ask him if he could confirm that the mining operations at Tantalum Mi ning Corp oration under cu rrent circumstances are not operating. HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, that was announced publi cly some time ago. MR. R. BANMAN: I wonder if the Minister could inform the House whether or not the Government of Manitoba is contemplating purchasing a larger percentage of the shares of Tantalum Mining Corporation. HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, not at this particular stage.

I might point out that those people who did exercise their option instead of Manitoba, in fact, made millions of dollars from exercising an option that the Manitoba Government could have exercised at the same time - and didn't. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr. Speaker, on Friday, the Minister of Mines indicated that he was making certain decisions with regard to the mining investment in this province from information and from recommendations he was receiving from Manitoba Mineral Resources.

I wonder if the Minister could advis e the mem bers of the Legislature whether or not he is taking the advice of Manitoba Mineral Resources with regard to their best busi ness judg ments, in other words, the recommendations that they make to him. Is he taking that into consideration when he is making his final decisions on any Mines matters? HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr.

Speaker, I clearly indicated on Friday that the requests to the Manitoba Mineral Resources Corporation had, in fact, been considered by the management of the Manitoba Mineral Resources Corporation and by the Board and that they had made the decisions with respect to joint venture proposals from the private sector that had come to them. I said, Mr. Speaker, that that's what took place in the past. We had indicated to Sherritt Gordon that we would take another look at their proposal with respect to Agassiz, that it would be possible for us to make a counterproposal. Mr.

Speaker, that is being put forward by Manitoba Mineral Resources Corporation as part of an overall package that they would like to pursue with Sherritt Gordon in the Lynn Lake area on the basis of commercial judgments. MR. R. BANMAN: A further question to the same Minister. So the Minister is indicating to the Legislature that, should Manitoba Mineral Resources advise that there should not be any further purchase of Tantalum Mining or that the province should divest itself of Tantalum Mining, that the Minister would take that information as being very sound, and would more than likely follow it. HON. W.

PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, the Manitoba Mineral Resources Corporation to date has not made that recommendation to me with respect to Tantalum. I know nothing of it. Bankruptcies - farmers MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Agriculture, I will direct my question to the First Minist er. There are a great many people, a great many farmers suffering the personal tragedy of bankruptcy at this time, Mr.

Speaker, and I fear that a great many other people in the rural areas, the suppl iers of fertilizer and chemicals and seed, etc., are being drawn into what is a worsening economic situation for farmers. My question to the First Minister would be, has he and/or his Cabinet col leagues or a Committee of Cabinet had any briefings on any research work that might be available to tell the government just how serious this problem is. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'm informed that the Minister has flown in from Brandon.

His plane landed at 2:10, so it appears that he will be here any moment. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I believe that I phrased my question so that it was one that the First Minister could answer without the help of his Mini ster of Agriculture. We would app reciate receiving an answer from the First Minister. HON. H. PAWL EY: Mr. Speaker , there is certainly a great deal of data and information as to the critical situation pertaining to the farmers of the province.

In deed, the meeting that we held last week with members of the Farm Survival Group and the National Farmers Union in this very building was demonstrative 1799

Monday, 18 April, 1983 proof of the cost-price squeeze that the farmers of Mani toba, as well as other parts of Canada, are confronted with, and the need for government to undertake what steps it can in order to alleviate the lot of farmers facing pending seeding, pending cropping and yet, at the same time, being pressed by the lending institutions. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, the First Minister started out to use the word "critical" in describing the situation that exists presently and then seemed to back off that. I think his choice of the word "critical" was probably accurate.

In view of the situation that prevails and which the First Minister seems to be aware of to some extent, is he confident that the programs which his government is putting in place will be adequate to deal with the situation that prevails today, given that there is very little time to go before farmers are going to be on the land and many farmers are already faced with the decision of whether it's go or no-go? HON. H. PAWLEY: Clearly, the provincial administration can assist and can help to the extent that it's possible within its financial and jurisdictional means.

Clearly, provincial jurisdiction cannot do all that is required in order to rescue the situation in its entirety. Mr. Speaker, the farmers of this province have been faced with rising energy costs, sharp increase by way of interest rate charges. They are now faced with announcement by the Canadian Wheat Board with reference to a low initial payment pertaining to wheat and as well, of course, faced with the additional cost pertaining to transportation by the elimination of the historic Crow rate. So the farmers are faced with overall problems that require federal action.

The Provincial Government is proceeding as best it can and I must say, with a reaso nable understanding on the part of the farmers of the province, moving within its jurisdictional financial means to assist to the extent that is possible, in order to help those farmers that are most pressed at the present time by demands from the lending institutions. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, do I take from that answer from the First Minister that he believes that his government is doing everything which it is possible for it to do to assist the farming community under today's circumstances? HON. H. PAW LEY: Mr.

Speaker, we are certainly anxious and prepared to do all that we can, that is possi ble within our jur isdiction and fina ncial wherewithal. It is for that reason, in fact, that the Minister of Agriculture had meetings with the Farm Survival Group this last Thu rsday to di scuss Ma nitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation financing. It is for that reason, Mr.

Speaker, that some one year ago, we introduced a program of interest rate relief in Manitoba, interest rate relief for the !armers of this province, subsequent to a do-nothing government that was supp osedly representing the farmers of this province, that had done zilch insofar as assisting farmers who were crushed by rising interest rates, Mr. Speaker. So we stand behind the efforts that we've undertaken by way of interest rate relief; the fact that we doubled the finance unit at the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation; the fact, Mr.

Speaker, that we introduced a Stabili zation Program which has covered some 60 percent to 70 percent of the beef farmers in the Province of Manitoba - a program in which members across the way projected there would be less than 10 percent coverage. Now if their projections were as accurate in respect to the Beef Stabil ization Program as those of the Province of Manitoba in respect to the rest of the farm policy in Manitoba, then, Mr. Speaker, one cannot help but feel sorry for the farmers with an opposition such as we have in this Chamber. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A question to the First Minister. In view of all of this help that the First Minister indicates his government is providing to the farm community, could the First Minister indicate how many app rovals have been made under the MACC Loan Guarantee Program of $100 million? How many farmers have received assistance and approval under that? Wildlife Report MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, on Wednesday, April 14th, the Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain raised a question in the House about the filing of an Annual Wildlife Report of my department. I find that although there is a requirement in the Act for a filing of an Annual Report, the wildli fe sect ion of the department, called the Wildlife Branch in the Annual Report that the department have filed, covers the requirements of an Annual Report, because it contains a report on the adminstration of wildlife in the province.

So accordingly, I believe that it would be injudicious to have two reports by the same branch developed for the one year. So we believe that the Annual Report that is filed containing a report on each

section of the department should suffice for the purposes of the Act. Provincial Mediation Board - proposed MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin Russell. MR. W. McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, in response to the questions I raised in the House last Thursday with the Honourable First Minister about the serious problems our No. 1 industry in this province faces today, and in light of the headline in today's newspaper, "Province's Mediation Board called an Exercise in Futility", can I ask the First Minister today, will he tell this House and the people of Manitoba, who is this mediation board that is discussed about that is sup posed to save our No. 1 industry? What are their powers and what are their terms of reference?

Can he advise me what further meeting has Cabinet held over the weekend to deal with this serious economic problem that the farmers face in this province today as they try to plant their 1983 crop? 1800

Monday, 18 April, 1983 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Unlike members across the way, when they formed the government of the Province of Manitoba, this government is presently in the process of forming such a mediation board and, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Agriculture has been meeting with the lending institutions, with the farm organizations that are most concerned. In involving his department, Mr.

Speaker, in ensuring that there are appropriate terms of reference developed and in work ing out a membership in respect to that review panel, the Minister of Agriculture is moving towards the making of an annou ncement pert aining to terms of reference, membership, etc., just as quickly as he can. MR. W. McKENZIE: I thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wonder if the First Minister could be kind enough to advise the House and the people, who is the chairman of the proposed review board? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I've just finished indi cati ng tha t the Mini ster will be making an annou ncement perta ining to terms of reference, membership, just as quickly as he is able to do so. Mr. Speaker, but prior to doing so, the Minister of Agriculture is working closely with the leadership of the various farm organizations most vitally concerned about this issue and is not working in a vacuum or in isolation from the concerns of the Manitoba farm population. MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I am completely frustrated and absolutely annoyed at the First Minister of this province.

I raised these questions in the House last Thursday. He's the Minister of the House. He's the Leader of this Government. What are you doing over there? You're doing absolutely nothing for the farm people of this province. May I ask him again, what are the terms of reference of this board? I asked you last Thursday. Surely you've had some meetings with your Cabinet members over the weekend to tell the farm community what you're going to do for them. Mr. Speaker, what are the terms of reference? What kind of money are you giving this review board? What powers?

And what are they going to do for the credit unions and the other people in this province that are facing serious economic problems today? The Minister sits there like a bump on a log, Mr. Speaker. He doesn't even know what I'm talking about. Because after all, we've been raising this thing in the House for at least the last six weeks and they've done absolutely nothing . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. W. McKENZIE: I raised it last Thursday, I raise it again today . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, how indeed times change. I can recall in 1979, 1980, 1981 - sitting across the way and the Honourable Member for Russell - where was he sitting - here? - remaining entirely mute when these questions were raised in the House of the previous Minister of Agriculture for this province, completely mute. At least, Mr. Speaker, the contrast between this government and the members across the way is that there's a great flurry of words and nothing, a great flurry of holy pious championship, when indeed there is no substance. Mr.

Speaker, this government is acting; this government is proceeding in consultation with the farmers of this province. When this government has completed its consultation and the evolving of the terms of reference and the mem bers hip, we' ll be delig hted to make tha t announcement. I know members across the way are thin-skinned, Mr. Speaker, because they did zilch and it required this government to undertake the necessary initiatives. MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, again we get no answers from this First Minister - absolutely nothing. Mr.

Speaker, when are you going to tell the farmers of this province in response to my questions last Thursday? This review board will be set up. What kind of powers have they got and what kind of money have they got to help the people in this province, and the farm people to put their crop in? What day? Monday, Tuesday - this is Monday now. I asked the question on Thursday. Is it going to be tomorrow, Wednesday or six weeks from now? HON. H. PAWLEY: To be very clear, because I can see now what the Honourable Member for Russell wants to insert into the record that we are responding to their wishes, to their demands.

No, Mr. Speaker, if we had waited for their demands, we'd be waiting to 1989 in the Province of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased to see the Honourable Minister of Agriculture is present because the Minister of Agriculture is going to have a great deal of fun in the remaining minu tes, stri king out honour able members across the way that appear not to be following the agricultu ral situation in Ma nitoba and the progressive moves that are being undertaken by this government to deal with the critical situation of agriculture in Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, following on that line of questioning to the First Min ister, since he seems to be enjoying telling us about all the wonderful things his government is doing for agriculture in this province, in view of the fact that he has indicated that under our administration that nothing was done for farmers in this province - "zilch" - as I think he referred to it; in view of the fact that he says that his activist government is doing so much for farmers in this province, why then has the number of farm bankruptcies in this province increased by 380 percent in the first year of NOP administration in this province?

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, apparently the Member for Tuxedo doesn't realize, and apparently we must 1801

Monday, 18 April, 1983 again inform him, that the reason for the rise in bankrup tcies from Newfoundland to British Columbia is a result of the interest-rate policy, tight-money policy, favoured by the Conservative Party of Canada; favoured by the Liberal Party of Canada; favoured, indeed, by Conservatives throughout the Western World. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for Oral Questions has expired. The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Mr. Speaker, I ask for leave of the House to make a non-political statement at this time. MR.

SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Member have leave? (Agreed) NON-POLITICAL STATEMENT MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. HON. S. USKIW: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yesterday in Regina the Ed Werenich's rink from the Avonlea Curling Club at Toronto won the Air Canada Silver Broom, emblematic of the World Curling supremacy. Ed was raised, educated and learned how to curl in Bonita, Manitoba, which makes up part of the Swan River constituency. Ed's parents still live in Bonita.

I'm sure all members of the Assembly join with me in congratulating Ed Werenich and his rink for their superb curling and in retaining the world championship for Canada. COMMI TTEE CHANGES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MRS. D. DODICK: Committee changes, Mr. Speaker. Economic Development: Uskiw for Parasiuk, and for Law Amendments: Ashton for Dolin. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day, the Honourable Member for Riel. MRS. D. DODICK: The Standing Commit tee on Economic Development is Parasiuk for Uskiw. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Mr. Speaker, by consultation and agreement with the Opposition House Leader, we're interrupting the Health Estimates in the House and Finance will start today and continue until tomorrow and we'll see where we go from there. In committee, we will proceed, as has been the case I think, with Civil Service.

MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, with the Honourable Member for River East in the Chair for the Department of Finance and the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for Civil Service. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: We are now considering Item 1.(a) - the Honourable Minister. HON. M.B. DOLIN: The last time we were in this Estimate review, Mr. Chairman, the members asked for some information which I have for them today.

One is the indication of applications received for the competitions that they mentioned, particularly for assistant deputy min isters, and the other is our Affirmative Action Policy statement. Perhaps I can pass these down to the member now. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: I thank the Minis ter for the information. Perhaps I'll have an opportunity over the dinner hour to review it and may come back and ask further questions. When we left off, Mr.

Chairman, last time we were in commit tee on Thur sday evening, the Mini ster ind icated tha t with respect to the special early retirement option that is being offered to senior civil servants, it was the Commission's estimate that if 300 civil servants take up the offer that the cost to the government will be some $2,330,000.00. She had earlier indicated that possibly all 3,000 of these senior civil servants who are eligibl e, could take advantage hypothetically of the offer.

My question to the Minister is, where in the Estimates is this $2.33 million budgeted, or is it not budgeted at all and is it the intention of the Civil Service Commission to ask for this money later on by way of Supplementary Supply? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON. M.B. DOLIN: The cost of the severance benefits would come out of consolidated revenue. However, what the member is perhaps not taking into consideration is that there is a saving even in year one, which becomes an even greater saving in year two. MR. G.

MERCIER: Well, using the figure the Minister was using, 300 people, what is the saving in the first year? HON. M.B. DOLIN: The saving in the first year is 5.3 million. MR. G. MERCIER: That's assuming I take it, Mr. Chairman, that the positions are not filled. HON. M.B. DOLIN: That's correct. As I explained earlier, the figures we are using are based on not filling the positions. But we also have an estimate of how many of those positions could be filled and still leave us in 1802

Monday , 18 April, 1983 a break-even position. If these people retire and their positions are determined to be filled, there still would be a time lapse between the time that they retired and the time that the position was filled. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, has the Minister formed an opinion that there are a certain number of these 3,000 positions that would not have to be filled? HON. M.B. DOLIN: I can't form any opinion on that because I don't know where these retirees are going to come from.

They will come from across the government, so the people in the various departments would have to make that determination. If the people come from positions where we feel there is a need to fill them, then I'm sure that determination will be made, but they would probably be filled by people earning a lesser salary than the people who have retired, because there would be someone new coming into the position, someone who perhaps had not been with the government as long and there would be a cost saving there.

The experience of the private sector in this area of enhanced early retirement is that there is a much greater take-up than they predict and that the cost saving is certainly there. MR. G. MERCIER: What will be the procedure used then to determine whether or not a position should be filled? Would this be a departmental . . . HON. M.B. DOLIN: In place now is a process by which Treasury Board reviews each request for filling each position and that is done for all positions. That will remain in place, so each of these positions would be assessed on its own merits. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, in the Minister of Finance's Budget on Page 14, he indicated that the government has reduced the number of positions in government departments by almost 500 from last year's total. Does the Minister have a

summary of where those reductions took place? HON. M.B. DOLIN: I can get you some information on that in just a few moments. I would say, in a preliminary fashion, that those positions are vacant positions or positions that have become vacant through attrition. In other words, they weren't people that were let go. What I have for you is the net reduction in each department that is the result of this year's Estimates and, if you wish, I can give you that information.

There has been a subsequent ongoing decrease in the number of positions, as positions are perhaps not approved by Treasury Board, or departments may determ ine themselves that they don't need to fill a particular position and, the refore, don't request it. I am not sure whether you wish to have me table this or read it out. Do you want me to read it out? MR. G. MERCIER: If it's a

summary, sure. Read it out. HON. M.B. DOLIN: All right.

In Agriculture, there is a net adjustment of 10 positions - I'm giving you the red uctions, okay? - Commu nity Servic es and Corrections, 46; Consumer and Corporate Affairs, 3; Co-operative Development, 1/2; Cultural Affairs and Historical Resources is 2 and appr oximately 1/2; Education, 31-1/3; Fitness, Recreation and Sport, 1; Government Services, 20; Highways and Transportation, 22.5; Labour and Manpower - as it was called then - is a portion of a term year, it comes to .10; Municipal Affairs, 8 positions; Natural Resources, 51 and about 1/2; Northern Affairs is 8; Environment and Workplace Safety is 6-1/2; Urban Affairs is 1.

Then there is an adjustment for the Highways departmental staff and the total comes to 425 positions at that time, so there have been some added since then. This was the Cabinet

summary in January, so you see there are a few months from that time to now. MR. G. MERCIER: The objective was to reach 500? HON. M.B. DOLIN: No, the objective was to eliminate positions which were not viable or which could be handled by people already employed. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Finance had said we have reduced the number of positions in government departments for '83-84 by almost 500 from last year's total. HON. M.B. DOLIN: That's correct. Actually we're a little bit over 500. MR. G.

MERCIER: Is the Minister saying that all of these positions were vacant at the time, that nobody was laid off as a result of this reduction? HON. M.B. DOLIN: There was no one laid off. There were some redeployments; there were a lot of vacant positions; there were positions that became vacant and through reassignment of the job, or a different job description, or different job mandate - I can use our Department of Employment Services as an example and ex plain that in some detail - positions were eliminated in that way. There simply wasn't a need for them under repriorization, but the people were not laid off.

MR. G. MERCIER: Can the Minister then indicate the number of civil servants and term employees paid on a regular basis as of April 1st? She may have a different date. I don't mean to be difficult about the date. HON. M.B. DOLIN: Ok ay, as of early this year. MR. G. MERCIER: Well, the departmental Commission Report indicates that in December 1982, there were 12,694 civil servants and term employees paid on a regular basis. As a result of this reduction, what will that complement of civil servants be? HON. M.B.

DOLIN: I have the figures up to March 1983, which I think is quite recent, and we can compare them if you wish, with December 1982. But what we have on the payroll right now, regular civil servants, 12,529; 94 people on contract, and under other, 3,762. The total is 16,385. MR. G. MERCIER: The total is 16,000? 1803

Monday, 18 April, 1983 HON. M.B. DOLIN: It's 16,385. Perhaps I might note to you that in December 1982, not that long ago, those figures represented regular civil servants at 12,694; contract at 96; other at 3,983, for a total of 16,773. Now those figures represent people, not positions. So as at March 31, 1983 there were 487 vacant positions within the Civil Service. MR. G. MERCIER: As of March 1st there were 400 and ... HON. M.B. DOLIN: March 31, 1983, 487. Yes, those are regular positions that were vacant.

Wo what we have been doing is taking a look at hiring and filling vacant positions, and seeing how the job can be done in another way. We have also redeployed people to provide more useful services to people, and they therefore may be doing a different job, which in some cases may mean that there are not as many people needed to deliver the new service as opposed to the old service. Until those people left the Civil Service or were moved around within the Civil Service, there wasn't that reduction. MR. G. MERCIER: What was the figure for the number of vacant positions as of March 31st? HON. M.B. DOLIN: 487. Yes.

That's regular and term positions, I should say. MR. G. MERCIER: So that's the figure that was used really in the Budget process, or is this after the reduction of 500? HON. M.B. DOLIN: That's after the reduction, yes. MR. G. MERCIER: After the reduction there were still 487? HON. M.B. DOLIN: That's right, and those are the kinds of positions that will come to Treasury Board, or are in the process of going thr ough Treasury Board, positions where people leave, and the positions do need to be filled, most likely, and that's why they have been kept. MR. G. MERCIER: Perhaps the Minister can help me.

On page 7, of the Annual Report, they refer to 12,694 civil servant and term employees and they compare that to December 1977. Now the Minister has added to those figures, contract employees and others. What are others? HON. M.B. DOLIN: Those are in the report as well, and you want to know what "other" means? MR. G. MERCIER: Is it on another page? HON. M.B. DOLIN: Appendix 2, on Page 25, should give you the information you're looking for. MR. G. MERCIER: That refers to established jobs. HON. M.B.

DOLIN: If you look at Table 2 at the top of the page, there is a remark under the figures given that says, "This includes departmental casual shifts, sessional, hourly, and if, as and when employees. " MR. G. MERCIER: In terms of comparing the number of civil servants from one year to another, are those the most appropria te figures, the established jobs plus contract employment and others? HON. M.B. DOLIN: Yes, that is the total complement. The other really includes those persons hired on a seasonal or sessional basis.

In Table 3, the December, 1982 column, if you look at the bottom, you'll see that you have that figure that I gave you earlier. That includes all of them. But, in order to compare year-over-year or month-over-month of regular employees, you must separate them out. MR. G.

MERCIER: The appendix would indicate in December of 1981, there were some 16,270 employees and the government, if I recall correctly, raised the number of civil servants by about 500 in the first year in office and have now reduced the overal figure to 16,385 of which, the Minister says, 487 positions are still vacant and subject to an ongoing review as to whether those positions are filled. HON. M.B. DOLIN: I'm not sure if you are looking for an answer to this comment or not.

I believe that you covered the 1981 figures during last year's Estimates, but I would point out to you that on the next page, under the notes, again define that fact that - as an example, in Government Services, the cleaning staff was brought under Civil Service employ and they were not there before. So we're talking about net reductions and we are not speaking department by department when we're talking about the whole number, of course. So I would say that during last year's Estimates you probably covered fairly carefully what that figur e represented.

This year, through a lot of other means and a careful scrutiny of whether positions are in fact needed to be filled, we have further reduced the number of people in our employ even though other groups have been taken under the employ of the government. MR. G. MERCIER: Would the Mini ster then, Mr. Chairman, in view of her experience and approach in policies, consider the number of civil servants employed under our government as vicious cutbacks? HON. M.B. DOLIN: I assume the member by saying our government means the previous government, I want to get that clear on the record.

But I think the important point here is the way in which it was done. We have reduced vacant positions and where people might have been doing a job that we felt was not as necessary as it had been, we have redeployed and assisted in retraining and put those people into other positions to deliver a service that we do feel is a priority. So, we have not reduced people, we have not laid off people, and that's the difference between what the member refers to as, you know, the previous government and our government, which is the current government. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, is it the Minister's intention, or the Government's position, or do they have 1804

Monday, 18 April, 1983 any fixed policy with respect to these 487 vacant positions? Are they only going to allow so many of them to be filled or will that simply be done on the basis of what they consider to be the need to fill them? Do they have some fixed positions - for example, they're only going to fill 250 of them? HON. M.B. DOLIN: We have no fixed number. Each request for filling a position is considered separately and uniquely.

However, all departments are req uired to submit to their justification for filling that position in a similar way, so that when we compare need, and assess need, we are looking at it from the same point of view for every department. Many positions are filled !or a short-term basis because they need to be. I would suggest that when people are off on maternity leave you may sometimes need to get someone else in on a term basis to fill that position.

That sort of thing certainly happens with some regularity, but the positions that are vacant are frequently vacant because there is a bulletin out already to fill them or they are going to be filled in a different way through redeployment of a person within the department, and when those things are considered by Treasury Board, they are each considered separately. Each position comes in on a separate sheet of paper with separate justification for that position. MR. G. MERCIER: The Mini ster ind icated, Mr. Chairman, that there were 94 contract employees as of March 31st.

Is it the Minister's intention to attempt to further reduce the number of contract employees? HON. M.B. DOLIN: Most of those positions within that 94 are actually within the Department of Employment Services. They are the New Careers' people and they are hired, of course, on contract, because it's for a short-term basis and we know that they are going to be employed by someone else when they finish their course.

There are some people within, I think, the Attorney-General's department - articling law students who would be hired on a contract basis and then the odd position here or there, strictly for a specific task, where someone would be hired on contract. MR. G. MERCIER: The contracts do not go through the Civil Service Comm ission, tha t's done by the respective departments? HON. M.B. DOLIN: There is justification for this hiring that goes to Treasury Board, and the Civil Service Commission staff always has a look at that and their comments are included on the justification page. MR. G.

MERCIER: I may have missed it but there may be some reference to the number of term employees in the report HON. M.B. DOLIN: In Table 1, on Page 24, if the member will look at the last two columns. The difference between the civil servants in Established Jobs column, the last column, and the column immediately preceeding which is All Employees. will give him the number of term employees. MR. G. MERCIER: So there are roughly 1,200 term employees as of December 1982. 1805 HON. M.B. DOLIN: Roughly that, yes. MR. G. MERCIER: Can the Minister indicate how many term employees there were as of December 1981? HON. M.B.

DOLIN: The civil servants in Established Jobs in December, 1981, was 11,518 . The total number there was 12,278, fast calculations. I don't have my calculator with me. Approximately 700. MR. G. MERCIER: Can the Minister indicate then where the 500 increase in term positions is? HON. M.B. DOLIN: Well, I think that your first figure might have been a little mistaken. I think it's about 800 difference. So that's, at best, maybe 100. MR. G. MERCIER: I didn't get here on the basis of my abili ty in mathematics, I can assure you of that. HON. M.B. DOLIN: On that we can agree and I'll have to say neither did I. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 1.(a) - the Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: The Minister mentioned there were some New Careers student positions there. I wonder if she could tell me how many New Careers positions there are filled and vacant at the present time? HON. M.B. DOLIN: I believe that the New Careers Branch and all of the details concerning that were covered in the Employment Services Estimates. Are you looking now for the exact number of New Careers contracts? MR. R.

BANMAN: Out of the 96 contracts, the Minister mentioned there were New Careers involved there, and I was just wondering how many of those 96 were New Careers. HON. M.B. DOLIN: I'd have to go back to my other Estimates book and get that figure for you again. I would not want to misquote it by trying to do it off the top of my head. MR. R. BANMAN: I guess the question that has to be asked of the Minister, is she expecting that there will be more contracts filled on the New Careers Program, or is it the government's intention to hold it at the level it is right now? HON. M.B.

DOLIN: We have no special desire to hold that program to a certain number of people. The more employers that become involved in the program, the more students that we are able to accommodate, the more training that we're able to do, it's a very very successful program. I would say that whatever take up we have on that program we will proceed with it. MR. R. BANMAN: I understand there has been some previous discussion with regard to the policy which the government initiated, regarding early retirement.

I'd like to ask the Minister several questions and sort of just preface my remarks by saying, as she is probably aware,

Monday, 18 April, 1983 there are a number of people out there who have taken early retirement and are two, three, four, five, 17 days away from the cut-off time, and have now found themselves in the position of having served in the government, or in a Crown agency for some 35 years, and because of a week or so are now faced with having to take a lesser amount of money, with regard to their pension, than before.

I had the matter raised to me by someone who was employed by a Crown corporation who - and he indic ated that after 35 years of service - retired sometime in February, and was 17 days away from receiving the pension; has as I mentioned spent 35 years with the Crown corporation; had 55 days of vacation pay piled up and was given a cash settlement for the 55 days. What he could have done very easily is just gone on holidays for 55 days and then come back and worked a week, and then retired and could have availed himself to this program.

But I would ask the Minister, first of all, what effect the current program has had in the Crown corporations, as well as government, in going ahead and getting people to retire maybe earlier than they normally would?

The other question is, what can be done or what will be done with regard to these people who now, because of the government's announcement and the government is now paying that 1.5 percent penalty as a supplement for these people that are taking advantage of the program - is there anything the government will be doing with regard to these people who are long-time employees of the government, and now are caught on this thing because they retired 17 days, or two days before the announced cutoff? HON. M.B.

DOLIN: I think it's important to point out that there is no loss of pension benefit for people who have retired outside this window, no loss whatsoever. What the window does, is allow people of a younger age, and with fewer years with the government, to retire. There is also a slight difference in the way that the benefits are figured for those who retire. Now this is an enhancement. It's over and above regular pensions.

If we had set the date at February 1st - we made it retroactive to March 1st, it's four months, not three - but if we had set it at February 1st we would have lost those, by your description, who retired in January. We picked the months where there is the highest level of retirement. There is really no way, I don't believe, that you can set a window, an enhancement, a suppl ementary severance benefit, that does not have limits. By its very nature it has a beginning and an end. There might be a desire on the part of some people to have these benefits in place all the time but that is an exceedingly large cost.

That certainly would be something that would have to be looked at with great care and caution. There are some aspects of this window which have been recommended by the Pension Commission as part of pension reform but as you well know there are those employers who say, look at this with great caution because it's very costly. So the people who retired before this window, the people who are 52, or 53, or 54, who are not eligible to retire during the time of the window - just as they were not eligible to retire before - still will not be covered by this particular enhancement. 1806 MR. R.

BANMAN: I wonder if the Minister could explain this to me. Someone who's 55 has 35 years of service - in other words started working for the government when he or she was 20 years old and has worked for 35 years for the government - and then retires two days before the March 1st cutoff, what kind of a loss does that person face? HON. M.B. DOLIN: I guess we'd have to figure in the 55 days of paid holiday as well, the cash settlement you referred to, I think we would have to work that out. If you'll give us a few minutes we will. Again, it's not a loss in pension benefits and I think we must be very clear on that.

There's absolutely no loss of pension benefits. The enhancement allows extra leeway among those who may retire. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr. Chairman, is the Minister saying that regardless of this policy, had this individual retired between March 1st and June 30th - the case that I pose to you, the civil servant who has worked for the government for 35 years and retires at 55 - it doesn't make any difference to him or her whether or not she or he retires two days before the cutoff or during the cut off? HON. M.B.

DOLIN: The person that the member described, and I'll go back to that question first because I was getting that information while he was asking his later question, the person that you described, I could probably relate to the examples that we have on our chart of someone who is 58 years old, 35 years service, and retired just before the window came into effect. The only difference would be in the averaging - the six-year average as opposed to a seven-year average which is place for regular retirees - that amounts to $44 a month.

As we look at moving towards that six-year average, which is under consideration at this time, if we decide two years down the road to move to a six-year averaging then what is happening, is that the people who retire during this window are simply getting that a little earlier. But pension benefits, when they are passed by Cabi net and become part of the Act and become part of the calculations for retirement benefits, it's always made retroactive to those who have already retired, so there would be no loss then if it comes into effect a year or two down the road.

Now, I'm not saying that it's going to, but it certainly something that we're looking at, the different averaging formula. MR. R. BANMAN: Just in case I haven't made myself clear, this particular individual is not taking issue with this and neither are the people that are caught in this.

They're not taking issue with the fact that the amount of their pension - I guess everybody would like to get a higher amount - but the thing that really disturbs them is that many of them did have holiday time built up and by virtue of the new policy announced to try and encourage early retirement, in many instances some of these people have had more years of service than many others and now are not benefiting because they've been there for a long time.

Is the Minister saying that the $44 is roughly the difference that the person would have lost, or would have gained, had he or she retired within March 1st and June 30th?

Monday, 18 April, 1983 HON. M.13. DOLIN: I don't know the specifics of this particular case, but that's an average - it's on average and that's what it would be and I might point out that the person, unfortunately, who turns 55 in July is also not able to retire during this window, because there are beginning and ending dates and there must be, that's the window. What you're talking about is a door. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister in answering my colleague, referred to the fact that $44 for this hypothetical person was the difference between pension based on the best six instead of the best seven years. Is there not also to be calculated in there the waiving of the early retirement penalty of 1.5 percent per year for persons between 55 and 60? Is that taken into consideration in this? HON. M.B. DOLIN: The example I gave you was of a hypothetical person who is between 55 and 60, so that would be taken into effect. That's why it's a little higher.

If you take someone who's over 60 and you look at the difference between a person over 60 who retired in February and a person over 60 who retired during the window, the difference is much less, or a fair amount less. Again, these are all hypothetical cases. So each person's pension is quite different and this information is being provided to all potential retirees by the staff. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Could the Minister confirm? The 1.5 percent per year for retirements between the ages of 55 and 60 is now being paid by the province as sort of a severance settlement? HON. M.B.

DOLIN: I think there is a shading of difference in the way you have stated it and the way that it actually is that's important and that is, it's not a sort of a payout of 1.5 percent. The 1.5 percent was a reduction in the calculation of their pension benefits, had they retired without this special supplement. What we've done is say that we will not calculate in that 1.5 percent reduction. MR. R. BANMAN: Where is the money coming from to pay for that? HON. 1111.B. DOLIN: As I said earl ier, it comes out of consolidated revenue and the savings is greater than the expenditure. MR. R.

BANMAN: So the Minister is saying someone who retired two days or 17 days before the cutoff and does not fall within the parameters of the March 1st, June 30th, 1983 so-called window, is just out of luck and has no other recourse but to continue or go on the way he or she is right now. HOU. M.B. DOLIN: If I could use a bit of an analogy. If you or I have a child born on January 1st, in most school divisions in this province that child cannot get into first grade that year. They have to wait until they're six years old and that has to be the following September.

If I have ... - (Interjection) - Yes, a tax break is another one. My legal friend down there has pointed that out. There are dates set for all kinds of things that we do, this is another one of them, and it is unfortunate for some people that they fall on one side or the other of 3 particular window. But if we had set the dates from February 1st to the end of May, or if we had set them from August 1st to December 30th, there would still be people who fell on one side or the other, by an accident of their birth and of their employment.

So no matter how you cut it, you have these kinds of situations arising and if you continually go both backwards and forwards with this, again you don't have a window, you have a wide open door . MR. R. BANMAN: Well, I guess this is the unfairness of this particular pol icy which the gov ernme nt introduced to try and reduce the - in their way reduce the size of the Civil Service and in effect some of the cuts that we've been talking about before - and really what's happened is that there a number of people that have been caught with this.

Unlike her analogy where she says it's unfortunate when a child is born earlier or later, hopefully the parent has had something to do with that child being born. What I say to you here now HON. M.B. DOLIN: It depends on your religion. MR. R. BANMAN: Well, Mr. Chairman, I might still be from the old school that way, but I think there is an input by the people that are involved.

But I want to say to the Minister, these people who have worked in this instance for 35 years for the government, are really caught and really do feel cheated in this particular instance bec.ause they have a fellow worker who has waited, hasn't retired, now can retire and get $44.00 a month more for the rest of their life and to that extent, Mr. Chairman, I have to say I feel sorry that it is actually a little bit ill-conceived, that these people who have worked that long for the government are treated in this fashion and for two days or 17 days difference see $44.00 whipped out from under them.

It's not a right way of doing it and I'm sorry that the Min ister doesn't want to take some steps to try and alleviate part of that problem. HON. M.B. DOLIN: The $44.00 is not removed from them, or whipped out from under them. It is something extra which they are not receiving, but there is no reduction in their pensions. MR. R. BANMAN: Well, Mr. Chairman, if you retire and you retire two days before the cutoff and your friend retires within a week when you did, because of the cutoff your friend gets $44.00 more than you do.

I say to the Minister that there are a lot of people who really really feel cheated with this particular thing and are not happy about it. I can see now that they don't have any recourse and the Minister won't give them any satisfaction on that, but I just point it out to the Minister that there are a lot of people who have put in a lot of time with the government. The pension plans were established. They 1807

Monday, 18 April, 1983 knew what the payouts were and now suddenly by some act of tl)e government, by the consolidated revenue fund throwing some more money into the system, the rules of the game are changed for a few months and these people are left out in the cold. HON. M.B. DOLIN: I would just like to propose a question, and I suppose it's a bit rhetorical, but I wonder when the member would suggest it would be fair, two days, two weeks, two years difference, at what point does what he describes become fair? MR. R. BANMAN: Mr. Chairman, let me put it this way to the Minister.

The Minister announced this program in a way to try and cut down the Civil Service and try and reduce the Civil Service. That was one of the reasons that she announced this program and she's the one who is going to have to take the responsibility for it. Su rely, when she was developing the program somebody pointed out that these things could happen and this is the decision that she has made and is going to have to live with the decision.

There are some people that have not been treated fairly, I believe, in this matter, by this decision of this government and they will have to accept the respo nsibili ty for th at and the consequences for it. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(a) - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, does the Minister not have any concerns that once having opened a window, as she calls it, and offering some special benefits to early retirees, that the people remaining in the Civil Service will wait for the next window, especially when the Minister mentions that the government is looking at changing the best seven to the best six years, that people will wait for that to happen or wait for another so-called window to open, that this may have the reverse effect of having people who would otherwise have taken an early retirement at some point, stay on waiting for these special benefits to occur once again?

HON. M.B. DOLIN: Since this is only the second window ever introduced in the his tory of pensions - (I nterjection) - the war service issue, which I suppose neither of us were involved in. It certainly has been practice throughout the years of the Pension Fund that any benefit that is passed is made retroactive to those who have already retired. So if these people choose to retire, if there is a benefit put in place, they would receive it anyway, so they wouldn't need to wait.

I would think there would be a lot of reasons that people would choose to remain employed and there perhaps are a lot of reasons right now that they choose to remain employed, some beyond 65 even, but that would be their choice and I'm not sure that we would ever even determine with them exactly why they want to remain working. MR. G. MERCIER: I wonder, Mr. Chairman, I believe the Minister has indicated that the MGEA does not support this plan of the Minister's. Could she indicate who was the originator of this concept and what the objective is? HON. M.B.

DOLIN: The MGEA, as the member is probably aware, is only one group within the fund. There is a liaison committee made up of representatives of all of the various working groups within the Fund. There is a difference of opinion, I suppose, among those groups, but essentially there is support for the concept. There is some encouragement certainly presented to government to make the changing in the calcula tions a permanent fixture of our pension benefits.

That has been in fact presented, I think, to the last several governments as a change, so that is nothing new, they would like to see that not be a window, but be permanent. But the conc ept, the idea of an enhancement is certainly supported by that liaison committee, which is representative of all the groups within the Fund. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the second part of the question was with respect to - the Minister may choose not to answer this part of it, but where did the concept of a special early retirement package develop, and what was the objective? HON. M.B.

DOLIN: The idea of the special severance benefit developed, I think, over a period of months of more or less casual discussion about movement within the Civil Service, within other groups that are in the Superannuation Fund, and became a part of a package of benefits that was agreed upon as far as investigation and possible implementation. Those things included such items as the allowance or the permission to take leave without pay for study or for whatever reason when requested by an emplo yee.

They include the development of some other possible opportunities for som<� kind of fluidity, I would say, within the Civil Service, within the government employment. This was one of the concepts that was developed in consultation with the MGEA and other groups were looking at this as well. Hydro, Telephones, and so on were looking at some kind of window, so it was decided to go with a window for everyone. MR. G. MERCIER: I wonder if the Minister could be more explicit as to the objective.

Was it to reduce the Civil Service, or was it a concern over perhaps the age groupings within the Civil Service and bringing in younger people? HON. M.B. DOLIN: There is no simple answer to that, because there wasn't a single reason why we did this. Certainly to reduce the Civil Service by allo wing opportunities to retire as opposed to laying people off is a consideration. Certainly perhaps the shrinking opportunities for younger people to find employment or to advance within career paths was ano the r consideration, as an aging population is in place within our society.

There were a number of options, I think, available to us for dealing with these problems. We tried to deal with each of the suggestions and each of the ways of approaching the problem by allowing the greatest possible movement out of the Civil Service without actually reducing positions with people in them. This is one of the ways. I have mentioned some of the others. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could undertake, for the next set of Estimates 1808

Monday, 18 April, 1983 and perhaps it will be included in the Annual Report, some statistics on this program. For example, how many people took advantage of the program, perhaps an indication as to their salary levels, an indication as to the cost to the government, an indication as to the number of positions that were filled. I think we should take a detailed look at the results of this next year. HON. M.B. DOLIN: We certainly are keeping track of that. We are doing that already and the information will be certainly supplied with next year's Estimates.

I can tell you that the figures I have are as of the 13th of this month. There were 468 inquiries; 329 of those in the Civil Service. There is an update on that figure. There were over 600, as of last Friday, inquiries about early retirement from people who would be eligible. There have been already 76 office interviews regarding retirement; 134 written estimates of optional pensions; 40 to 50 estimates are processed per day. There is a backlog of over 250 already and I'm sure if I went to them to update this list, that would be greatly increased as of la st Friday.

Of course, th ere are semi nars scheduled throughout the province to share information with those who are eligible. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1(a) - the Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, with respect to the Affirmative Action Policy, could the Minister indicate whether the program has been app roved by the Human Rights Commission? HON. M.B. DOLIN: The discussions regarding this policy have taken pl ace with the Human Rig hts Commission.

I haven't received anything from them yet specific to this, but certainly procedures regarding the Affirmative Action Policy would be those that would be confirmed by or app roved by the Human Rights Commission as well. MR. G. MERCIER: So it has not yet been app roved? HON. M.B. DOLIN: Staff has just informed me that although we didn't have to have their approval, they have app roved the Affirmative Action Policy, given it their approval. It's not a written minute yet, I mean that's in process, but we do have their app roval - enthusiastic approval I should add. MR. G.

MERCIER: In the revised, what the government calls the MGEA Revised Agreement Ratification, there is - and the Minister may want to talk about this under 2. I suppose - but there is to be implemented a long term disability plan. The announcement had indicated that the parties will negotiate the specifics of the plan. Have those details been negotiated yet. HON. M.B. DOLIN: No, they are to be negotiated during this fiscal year so that . . . (No transcription available) MR. G.MERCIER: Can the Minister expand on the concept that will be implemented with respect to long term disabil ity? HON. M.B.

DOLIN: The parameters of the program itself have not yet been set. It depends on exactly what the MGEA presents to us for consideration. It depends on what we research in various plans already in place and see as beneficial to our employees. The important point, I think, is that we have put a eaµ on the cost of this LTD plan of 1 percent of payroll. So we know the financial parameters within which we are working and the negotiations for this LTD plan will take place through joint counsel over this coming year. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, with respect to the TAP Program, in the original advertisement for the TAP Program, there was no reference to one particular program or to numbers. It just indicated the government is seeking to establish Temporary Assignment Program consisting of a small core of executives and senior management professionals. Subsequently, I think there was an indication somewhere along the line that there were to be four people employed under this program. Up until now, I believe the Minister indicated, there are only two - Mr. Scotton and then Mr.

Ferris from the Department of Education has apparently been hired to be the senior manager of the Jobs Fund. In the Annual Report on page 7, it seems to be worded based on the original bulletin, is there a limit to the number of individuals to be employed under this program? As the Minister has indicated in the past, I think it may depend on the number of applications by various departments. I wonder if the Minister can expand on this program? HON. M.B. DOLIN: There is a limit of 10 positions available under the TAP Program.

Those positions were created by transferring four positions that were made available by the transfer of senior vacancies from other departments to the Department of Finance specifically for this program, and six additional positions that are provided for in a separate appropriation by the Department of Finance and of course it would be within that department's Estimates.

Now the recruitment and the advertisement for these positions was necessarily not indicative of where these people would be working, because application has to come from the departments to the Department of Finance to access one of the positions for a specific task within that department. You're correct in saying that two people have already been hired. My information is that there are others in process - the Department of Economic Development, Natural Resources - those two at least have applied for positions under the lAP Program.

Actually there are five positions in total that will probably be filled, that's including the two that you've already mentioned, and it will be filled in a very short while. MR. G. MERCIER: How many applications were there for this program? HON. M.B. DOLIN: There were 480 responses to the general ad. MR. G. MERCIER: Then how was Mr. Scotton approved for his? The Minister, I think, has outlined some duties that he apparently has in the Department of Labour 1809

Monday, 18 April, 1983 when we were in that department. Was there a separate bulletin for the job which she had in mind in the Department of Labour, or were these 480 applications simply put in a file and as each department develops a program, they review the appl ications? HON. M.B. DOLIN: The 480 persons who applied for work under the TAP Program were separated out occupational ly, so tha t reduced the numb er of appl ications that the Civil Service Commission would go to, given the request and the definition of a job by a particular department.

When the mandate for that particular job was defined in my department, and as a result particularly of my activities with the Economic Summit Conference and being a member of the Steering Committee for that, the results from that conference as well as a need tor someone who had a knowledge of the impact of technological change in the workplace and labour law, the whole area of col lective bargai ning, that job description was prepared and it proceeded to the Civil Service Commission where a Mr. Hart was asked to in terview approp riate people with a Select ion Committee.

There were five people interviewed for that position and then the recommendation for hiring . . . ? MR. G. MERCIER: So the more detailed job position was not advertised separately? HON. M.B. DOLIN: No, it was not. The idea with staff, is that these jobs are not advertised separately but appl ication is made to the TAP Program with a job description in hand saying, here's a short-term job that needs to be done.

It has some definition as far as beginning and end, and it will take approxi mately two years under the TAP Program, then the Commission can go to its file of 480 applic ations and pull those that would be appropria te as far as qualifications of the applicant, and then prescreen those and then go through the interview process, and so on. MR. G. MERCIER: And the position of the senior manager of the Jobs Fund was not advertised separately either? HON. M.B. DOLIN: No, that was not. MR. G.

MERCIER: And the other five or so, specific jobs that are in process have not been advertised separately either and this file of applications have been used? HON. M.B. DOLIN: No, they have not been advertised separately. We have an inventory of 480 applic ants to which we can go for these positions and that's the whole point of the TAP Program. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I would think this is pretty unusual procedure. The first advertisement was a very general one and had a deadline date for filing up to October 28, 1982.

I would suggest that there are probably a lot of people who would not respond to a very general advertisement like that, but would respond to a more detailed job bulletin with respect to, tor example, the senior manager of the Jobs Fund. I'm asking the Minister if she does not really think it appropria te that the specific jobs should now be advertised, inasmuch as the deadline for filing the application under the general advertisement was the end of October, 1982.

During the past six months, I would estimate there are probably people who are available now and perhaps they weren't before when the ad was published and circulated, and there might indeed be a lot more interest in specific jobs from well qualified people that simply haven't made application under the very general advertisement that appeared last September and October. HON. M.B. DOLIN: First of all, the government or the Civil Service Commission has eligibil ity lists of all kinds and for a number of different positions. These are not permanent assignments.

We were not advertising for a permanent assignment for someone, so I think that's an important point as well. I think that it is also important to note The Civil Service Act,

Section 13(6) which says, "The Com mission shall est ablis h and maintain employment lists, promotion lists and re-employment lists setting out for various classifications of positions for which, in its opinion, such lists should be established and maintained, the names of candidates for those positions in order of merit and each such list is valid for one year." We are certainly prepared to add to this list of applic ants at any time. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, do the individuals appointed under this program work within the individual departments, or do they have their own set of offices set aside somewhere where everyone working under the TAP program is together? HON. M.B. DOLIN: No, they work within the department to which they are assigned. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, why would not the Minister then or the government have simply said, if a department has a particular and specific job which they want done during the course of the year, that will be assessed at th e time and will be specifically advertised and people would be hired on term or contract, whatever, after bulletining to do the job. It seems that we're into a description of a program, TAP, a Temporary Assignment Program, that is really not something particularly new, I don't think.

If the Minister, as Minister of Labour, wants a specific job done that arose out of the Economic Summit, then I don't know why she simply couldn't get approval to have that job done by someone and the expenses approved, etc. What is the real need for this Temporary Assignment Program at all? HON . M.B. DOLIN: I think it becomes very clear as thes1:! assignments finish. The intent is to develop a pool of senior people, people with senior management capabil ity, who are flexible enough to take on different kinds of assignments. Once a position or a job is done, that person could be re-assigned elsewhere.

You wouldn't lose that person just because the task to which they had been assigned in the first instance happened to be complete. You would have their knowledge and their experience to "tap" into - I guess that's a pun. 1810

Monday, 18 April, 1983 I didn't mean it that way, but that is exactly the point. You have this pool of senior management people. There is also the opportunity for people within the government - and I think that the indication I gave you during the previous Estimates with regard to Mr. Ferris is an example of this - to change the task that they are doing. We don't lose those senior management people either, but they are allowed to go on to a different task, to explore a different channel or route, and that kind of expertise that they bring to the job is very valuable to us.

The real point is to develop this pool of senior managers or people capable of senior management in a variety of different ways to have the flexibility to assign and re-assign. That is exactly what these people, the 480 - which certainly, I think, is a sizable number of applicants - people understood in applying for positions within the TAP Program. These people ready to bring their skills to a variety of jobs. Of course, it would be more appropriate for some of the applicants than others, but then we wouldn't lose the talent that they bring to this job. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, are these people permanently hired? For example, if Mr. Scotton's job is finished with the department, is he going to be re assigned within the department or re-assi gned to another department? The same way with Mr. Ferris, would he return to the Department of Education? Is this now a permanent group of people? HON. M.B. DOLIN: The posi tions are permanent positions; the assignment of the people in them would change. The example you use of Mr. Ferris, would he go back to the Department of Education.

Not necessarily at all, unless they happen to have a position for which they wish to recruit him at the end of his assignment with the Jobs Fund. He might go into some other gov ernment department, but the y are senior management level people. Where they are placed at the end of the task they are doing, or whether they go on to another task that has a beginning and an end, or is seen as a year-long program or two-year-long progam, that's open. There is a great deal of flexibility in this program th at doesn 't exist with straight placement of senior managers within a department, and that is exactly the point.

A small pool of senior managers who can be seen by departments as being accessible should they wish to recruit through that group of people for long-time positions after their TAP assignment is finished or into the TAP Program for a short-term position right now. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, moving on to another area. The Annual Report indicates a pilot project for the provision of French language training to 16 existing Civil Service employees, I take it that was in 1982. Could the Minister indicate which areas those people came from, which areas of government? HON. M.B.

DOLIN: The 16 people that are involved in the training? MR. G. MERCIER: Yes. HON. 1111.B. DOLIN: They come from the following participating departments: Labour and Employment Services, Civil Service Comm ission, Legislativ e Assembly, Consumer and Corporate Affairs, Agriculture, Attorney-General, Education and Urban Affairs. MR. G. MERCIER: What was the criteria for accepting those 16 persons? Was it because it was deemed that in tt.eir work they would have a likelihood of having to deal in the French language? HON. M.B. DOLIN: Yes.

Recommendations were made by the departments and then those people were short listed, if you will, according to the need and given aptitude tests and placed within two different levels of French language trai ning. MR. G. MERCIER: What is the cost of the program? HON. M.B. DOLIN: The gov ernme nt cost of th e program, I can give you cost for two years. I think that's probably what you want - $12,600 in 1982-83; $22,800 in 1983-84. That's our half of the cost of the program. MR. G. MERCIER: What sort of training program is that then? The Minister mentions the cost, I take it that's the cost of the instructors.

HON. M.B. DOLIN: That's the cost of the people teaching the course, of the facilities for the course, all of the costs of providing this training and that is cost shared with the Federal Government, so that's why ours isn't very high. MR. G. MERCIER: I take what's not included is the time away from work. If indeed that's the case, how much time is inv olved in that? HON. M.B. DOLIN: The total number of hours of training is 720.

Now, the program is set up, the structure is set up, so that one group - I mentioned earlier that there was a test given and people were placed in one of two groups - one group would attend sessions half-time for six weeks, then the other group would attend classes half-time for six weeks so that there is one group always attending classes, but there is a rotation for a total of 720 hours.

Now, I'm aware from my background in education in French immersion programs and so on, that that particular number of hours is the result of a great deal of research in capability in the French language, or I suppose in any language, but the number of hours of study is generally agreed upon to be 720 hours to make one fluently bilingual. There will be an assessment done over the summer, I believe, when they are taking a break from their studies about whether that is in fact an accurate number for our situation. There will be an assessment done during the summer. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, in how many jobs does the Civil Service Commission require a fluency in French? HON. M.B. DOLIN: The Civil Service Commission has three people in this course. MR. G. MERCIER: No, that wasn't the question. In how many jobs in the Civil Service does the Civil Service Commission require a fluency in French? 1811

Monday, 18 April, 1983 HON. M.B. DOLIN: I think it's important to point out that this is a pilot project, first of all, but we of course are doing an assessment across the government, if that is your question.

There are estimated to be 300 positions in government where there is a need for greeting or meeting or working with the public in the French language, and that is what we're working from, but of course the assessment is ongoing and this is, as I say, a pilot project, so we'll have to determine what kind of training is needed for people in those positions or how much will be done through recruitment of biling ual people and how much they're training. All of the details of that are still under review. MR. G. MERCIER: Well, Mr. Chairman, I think the two are separate.

I think, as the Minister said, this is a pilot project which the Civil Service Commission is monitoring and will provide some sort of judgment on later as to how effective it is in teaching people to be able to deliver Government Services in French. The other question is with respect to the number of positions where the Civil Service Commission requires a fluency in French, the Minister has indicated approximately 300. HON. M.B. DOLIN: Thank you for waiting while I got the clarification on that because it is exactly as I thought; the 300 figure doesn't indicate that we have 300 people who need training.

Those are the positions, and within that framework we are working with departments and departments are coming forward with information about whether it is best to recruit for those positions or to train and what level of training the people might need. So, it's not 300 people who need training and that's not what we're looking at. In a number of those cases, or a fair number of them I would say at least, and I don't have that figure right now, but we could probably get it, we already have the capabil ity, the person is already in place there. MR. G. MERCIER: That was my next question, Mr. Chairman.

Of these app roxi mately 300 posi tions th at the government has determined, the incumbent should have a fluency in French. How many do have that capability at the present time? HON. M.B. DOLIN: We don't have that figure right now. We'd have to research it and as I say this is in process right now, so we'd have to go back and determine just how many of those positions are already filled with a . . . Yes, the departments are, at this point in time, finalizing their presentations to us, so we'll have that information in a short while, but we just don't have it right now. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, perhaps in the next report, or at the consideration of next years' Estimates there might be some detailed information about that. I know it's an ongoing concern of the society of Franco -Manitobaine and th ere were ongoing discussions and negotiations about the areas where. It was felt it was important for the people being served that the person who delivers the service have some abil ity in the French language.

Perhaps we could have some more detailed information next year when the government completes these discussions and assessments, and supposedly this pilot project will be over and the government will have made some decision as to its effectiveness. Perhaps just before committee rises, Mr. Chairman, could the Minister indicate how many leaves of absences have been granted by the Civil Service Commission to persons who wish to go to British Columbia to work in the provincial election? HON. M.B. DOLIN: None. I wonder if the member wanted to go, is that what he's saying? MR. G.

MERCIER: Would you give me a leave of absence? HON. M.B. DOLIN: There have been no leaves of absence granted for that purpose. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(a) ... MR. G. MERCIER: Well, perhaps committee could rise at this point until this evening. MR. CHAIRMAN: We interrupt the proceedings. The hour being 4:30, we interrupt the proceedings for Private Members' Hour. SUPPLY - FINANCE MR. CHAIRMAN, R Eyler: We're in the Estimates of the Department of Finance. Does the Minister have an opening statement to make? HON. V. SCHROEDER: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I'll make some very brief introductory remarks.

To assist members, on April 12th I tabled for the second year a detailed expenditur e and program information supplement prepared by the departments. This information is being presented in line with recommendations of the auditor aimed at enabling members of the Legislature to deal with Estimates more expeditiously. In accordance with the suggestion made last year by the Member for Turtle Mountain, the supplementary information booklet was tabled in advance of the commencement of the Estimates.

It is hoped that this will have fac ilit ated mem bers of th e op position familiarizing themselves with this additional information. The supplement which is entitled, "Sup plementary Information for Legislative Review" is organized into three parts. The first

part includes an organization chart, summarizes departmental responsibility, provides an overview of the financial and staffing requirements and highlights changes from the previous year. The second part provides program descriptions and details of budgetary requirements. Part three provides five-year historical comparisons. This supplement has been produced again on a trial basis to assess its merits in assisting members of the Legislature. I welcome feedback from the members on the usefulness of the supplement, as well as suggestions for improvements.

Returning to this year's Estimates, I can advise that the basic organization of the department is unchanged, but it has augmented by creation of a new Information 1812

Monday, 18 April, 1983 Man agement Di vision headed by Mrs. Zorianna Hyworon as Assistant Deputy Minister. An additional increase in staff totalling 36 staff years was authorized by Treasury Board for the Corporation Capital Tax Branch to administer the new health and education tax levy. The 1982-83 printed Estimates included a total of 338.22 staff years made up of 325.36 permanent and 12.48 term. During 1982-83 a net total of 55 additional staff years was added to the authorized staff complement of the Department of Finance.

The resulting adjusted 1982- 83 staff total is 393.32, of which 378. 10 are permanent and 15.22 are term. The 1983-84 Estimates include requests totalling 404.22 staff years made up of 395 permanent and 9.22 term, an increase of 10.42 staff years as compared to the adjusted 1982-83 figures. As of February 18th, 1983, there were 371 employees actually on staff as compared to 320 as of March 19, 1982.

Members will be aware of the creation by Treasury Board of a Temporary _Assignment Program to provide a small core of executives and senior management professionals, who can undertake a variety of temporary priority assignments within the Civil Service. This new program has been assigned to the Department of Finance for administrative purposes and funding with the major ity of costs to be recovered from user departments. The program commenced in '82-83 with identification and transfer of four vacant staff positions. A further three positions are being requested for 1983- 84.

I should comment briefly at this point on the Treasury Board and its relationship to the department. There are now nine Ministers on the Treasury Board with myself serving as Chairman; the Minister of Highways and Transportation is Vice-C hairman; The Deputy Minister of Finance, Mr. Charles Curtis, continues to act as secretary to the board; and regular Department of Finance personnel continue to provide the staff support. For this reason separate expenditure authority has not been requested for the Treasury Board for 1983- 84.

Further background on the func tions and responsibili ties of the Treasury Board Department, as they pertain to the government's central management system, can be found in the 1981-82 report of the Provincial Auditor, specifically on Pages 18 through 25. The members will notice another new appropriation in the 1983-84 Finance Estimates entitled, "Reciprocal Taxation Agreement." This represents our estimate of the province's share for payment of federal consumption taxes under the recipr ocal taxation agreement amounting to 4.1 million for 1983-84.

I won't spend time here dealing with the various departmental expenditure figures since they are covered in detail in the supplement. As we go through the Estimates, members will probably want to refer to

Part 2 of the Supp lement headed , "D etailed Financ ial In formati on," which, as I noted earl ier, provides substantial information on each of the divisions. Thank you. MR. CHA IRMAN: The Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Chairman, I'm disappoi nted that the Min ister has only dealt with some of the administrative detail in his introductory comments and has said nothing about some of the broader issues that face the pro vince and some of the broa de r responsibil ities which he must carry out within his department, but no doubt we will get into those items as we go through his Estimates.

In view of the fact that he has not chosen to deal with those present ly, then we'll simply move ahead and go line-by-line. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 1.(b)

(1) General Administration Division, Executive: Salaries - the Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Chairman, one of the things which concerns us and I'm sure it concerns the Minister - it certainly concerns the public - has to do with the size of the deficit. I know that this government, on assuming responsibi lity for gov ernment in November of 1981, said at that time that the projected deficit, which was something in the range of $250 million at the time, was bordering on being an unmanageable deficit.

Now since that time the government have, themselves, presided over a doubling of that deficit to approximately $500 million and are now projecting an even larger deficit of 574 or 578, somewhere in that range. So my question to the Minister would be: At what point does he consider that a deficit might become unma nageable?

If it was coming close to being ummanageable at 250 million, but at 575 is considered to be appropria te and manageable, could the Minister give us some indication of how he judges that sort of thing, some parameters, hopefully some quantitative parameters of how he goes about making those kinds of decisions? MR. CHAIRMAN: Minister of .Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: I don't think that one can say at any given time that you take a number and say that's the number that will be the number at which concern will be expressed forever. One must look at what is happening elsewhere.

One must look at the revenue you're getting. You look at the provincial product, and you compare the debt on that basis. The deficit at 578 million is certainly of concern. If we had a reasonable choice, we would prefer to have a zero deficit, but we are told that if we were to take 100 million off by reductions in spending, which is the only way really that we could go at this stage, then what we would be looking at is somewhere in the vicinity of 5,000 direct job losses. Then that entails significant indirect job losses.

I was interested - the other day, I was at a meeting where John McCallum was addressing the audience and he was referring specifically to the point that he agreed that if you have a deficit and you reduce that deficit, then for that particular year, the economy suffers. It does suffer, whether it's by way of reduced spending or by way of increased spending. Now it is true that later on you have to repay it. I think that when you look at our debt and deficit in some detail, you find that, as compared to other parts of Canada, we are somewhere in the middle.

There was a speech given recently by one of the chief analysts 1813

Monday, 18 April, 1983 at Moody's, for instance, who was indicating that our direct debt was somewhere in the vicinity of 12 percent of gross provincial product and that's approximately substantiated by our own department. She indicated that in terms of the debt - and she emphasized that there were other components to it as well - but in terms of the factor of the debt, they considered somewhere in the vicinity of 20 percent to be the area where they become quite concerned. Indeed, a number of our provinces are well above that.

In fact, according to her estimates, there were only one or two provinces below the number that we have as a percantage. That doesn't means that the trend on which we are going is one that is satisfactory or one that shouldn't be turned around. Those who believe in larger deficits in bad times, and if they follow the Keynesian theory through, also have to belie ve that has to be repaid in good times.

Indeed, if what we are into at this stage is a new era; that is, if we are not moving upward; if we are going to be at sort of a stagnant rate in terms of our economy and there is not going to be economic growth over a period of years, then I think that we have to begin to recognize that we're going to have to reduce spending and expectations accordingly over a period of time which means a reduction in the deficit. We certainly started moving towards that, just for instance, with respect to Civil Service positions.

Although, clearly, the Department of Finance is one department that has seen a large increase in staffing. We believe that will be to the benefit of government. We will strengthen government as a result. Overall, there is some where in the vicin ity of 52 1 net position decreases in government from 1982-83 to 1983-84. That is at a time when we have increased numbers in specific areas. We brought in the rent controls and staffing for that, the health and education levy and staffing for that. There were some other programs.

We brought in a large number of people whom we used to pay for on sub-contract, the janitor and other services that are now showing as staff-years. So certainly we have started on a program of looking in every direction we can to save money without going so far. We hope that we will affect services to the public. Maybe I could put it in a different way. A $578 million deficit would, especially if most of it was current deficit, current debt, would have to be considered to be totally unaccept3ble in times when we are generally considered to be in a boon.

I think that would be a disaster for the province because it would be an indication by any investor who looks at it that we are completely out of control. On the other hand, in a time like we are living in right now, I think that it's about, I believe, the right level, as much as I dislike having to turn around and repay a large increase in provincial debt. The alternative is one that could put us in even a worse economic situation over the next few years if we were to put thousands of people out of work directly. That would translate as well into indirect job losses and declines in the economy and other areas.

I don't belie ve it's something that one can just point a number at. Incidentally the speech was by Freda Stern Ackerman of Moody's. Just by comparison, Ontarios' direct debt they calculate at 9 percent of gross provincial product. Nova Scotia is at 33 percent. So there's a wide fluctuation there and that doesn't mean we're happy with the number we're at, but we do have to recognize that other jurisdictions are suffering the same kinds of problems. MR. B. RANSOM: Last year, Mr. Chairman, the govenment's expenditures went up roughly 18 percent; revenues went up less than 9 percent, I believe.

How long does the Minister think that kind of relationship of spending increases through revenue increases can go on until we come to a situation where some sort of drastic action has to be taken? HON. V. SCHROEDER: Well, there's certainly no doubt that I would prefer some indication that there is a recovery in order that we won't have to get into a position for next year where we are looking at some exponential increase in the deficit.

I believe that we are rapidly getting to the stage, I don't want to say that it is next year, but I sincerely hope that it is next year, where we will be seeing a beginning of a reduction in the deficit. As you know, the deficit for this coming year is, and there may be questions as to whether or not the forecast is accurate, but the deficit that we are projecting at the present time is approximately a similar proportion of gross provincial product for the coming year as it was for the last year.

So in that sense at least there's some indication of a bottoming out, that the turnaround, I would hope, could come as early as next year in terms of the actual amount of the deficit decreasing. Again I think that we have to concentrate on the current part. The member will, between now and Public Accounts' time, have an opportunity to review the Barber Report when it's final ized. There are some, I think, interesting observations made there.

Again referring to that Moody speech, Ackerman speech, she also indicated very clearly that they view the - in fact, she goes as far as to say that she's opposed to the co-mingling of current and capital funds, and really recognizes the difference between the two, and would like to see them split out very clearly by governments in order that they can see what is really going on there. I think that it would be useful for us to be looking at the deficit from that perspective. That is that about 270 million of it is projected current account deficit, the balance is a government capital account deficit. llllR. B.

RANSOM: Mr. Chairman, the Minister has on a number of occasions indicated that he believes the deficit problem is primarily one of reduced revenues as opposed to one of increasing expenditures. I have some serious doubt about whether that is the case of not and certainly the future fiscal situation of the province depends very strongly upon just what is the problem here - how important are the reduced revenues and how impo rtant is the increase government spending.

I'd like to hear from the Minister on how much of the present situation he considers to be one that, I believe, the present jargon is cyclical in nature, and how much of it is structural in terms of spending which the government is already committed to? I believe that from looking at the Spending Estimates which have been tabled in the House that one will find that there 1814

Monday, 18 April, 1983 is actually a 19.2 percent spending increase projected for next year. Now, I know that's not a figure the Minister uses, but when I look at the first figure that the Minister tabled in the House last year, and I look at the first figure that the Minister tabled in the House this year, I calculate that out to be a 19.2 percent increase. Now that is a very large increase in expenditures. There are very few times in my recollection when government revenues ever rose in the range of 19 percent.

Over the four years of our administration I know that revenues only rose an average of perhaps 10.8 percent. So that we seem to have a situation here where there's a great divergence between the expected gr owth in rev enues and the expected growth in expenditures. Mr. Chairman, perhaps the Minister would care to enlig hten us as to what he sees as the relative importance of the two factors. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Well, I think that I'm going to have to answer part of that later on. I did have some material here that I wanted to refer to that I don't seem to be getting my hands on.

But to begin with, for last year we are, other than for debt costs, which were underestimated in the beginning, and I hope that that will not be the case this year. That's one of the reasons why you see a large increase in the 'debt costs is that we so badly underestimated last year. But the other component of the increase in last year's deficit, in total, was almost entirely, excepting for certainly less than $5 million, made up of revenue projections that changed during the year from where they had started out.

Now for next year, I don't have the percentage right in front of me as to how we came up with just under 19 or 18 and the member comes up with 19.2, but for next year I will provide a more detailed explanation. The reason we are expecting as large an increase in revenue as we have projected - there is a number of reasons - one is, for instance the health and education levy, which although it was in effect for nine months last year, only showed as rev enue for eight months because you're always one month behind.

So, first of all, there is a one-third increase, actually a 50 percent increase there from where we would have been last year. Secondly, there are more people paying it now, first of all, the municipalities, etc. Thirdly, there is the Federal Government paying the full portion now. So that's one reason. There were other part-year tax increases that would now show on a full-year basis. As well, the tax increases that we proposed in the Budget were proposed early enough in the year for '83-84 to provide us basically with a full 12 months on most of it.

I believe that the sales tax, although it's in effect for the 12 months, we don't get a full 12-month effect for '83-84 because by the time you get the payments it's a little bit over. So, it's somewhere between 11 and 11-1/2 months. Now our calculations are, that there is a 15. 7 percent increase in revenue over third quarter projections. The full-year effect of last year's revenue measures accounts for in the order of an additional 55 million over and above actual 1982-83 base.

Provision for 16 million in payments from Ottawa under reciprocal taxation and the levy for Health and Post-Secondary Education is also included in '83-84 revenues. The third quarter statement had been projected revenue of $2,375,900.00. We are estimating revenue for next year to be at 2,747.8 billion. Netting the adjustments from '83-84 revenue estimates suggests an underlying revenue growth rate of 8.2 percent and that we bel ieve to be consistent with the economic assumptions used to forecast revenues across the country, that is moderate recovery.

It is also fractionally below the nominal gross domestic product growth rate forecast by the conference board of 8.4 percent for 1983. I think I'll just leave it at that. If you have anything further on that I will try and answer you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. 8. RANSOM: Mr. Chairman, does the Minister have any indication of what, say 1 percentage point growth in the gross provincial product will mean in terms of revenues to the province? MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, H. Harapiak: Mr. Minister. HON. V.

SCHROEDER: I don't think I have the answer but I just want to make sure I understand the question. The member is asking if there's a 1 percentage increase in gross provincial product, whether we get a 1 percent increase in revenue or more or less. I'm going to have to take that question as notice. It may well be that somebody up there has an answer and if so I'd be delighted to give it to the member. It may be that this is one of the areas where we can use some assistance when we have fully developed the quantitative analysis system that was started by the previous government. MR. 8.

RANSOM: I'm sure that somebody up there does have the answer, Mr. Chairman. For the benefit of those that only look at the written word the Minister is of course gazing to the galleries for staff and not looking for help from the deity. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Not yet. MR. 8. RANSOM: However, I'm a little bit concerned about that, Mr. Chairman. I would think that the Minister would need to have a very extensive understanding of how the performance of the economy in the province is likely to affect his revenues, because if the problem is really one of revenues, as the Minister and his colleagues

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-2-48a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 2nd hansardpdf 48a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	7185153ddb22aa24663833177a0b05857fc6df5e

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