Manitoba Hansard — 15 April 1980 (Sitting 37A, 31st Legislature, 4th Session)

31-4-37a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Time: 2:0 0 p.m. LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANIT OBA Tuesday, 15 April, 1980 OPENING PRAYER by Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (Birtle-Russ ell) : Present ing Petitions • Reading and Receiving Petitions . PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITT EES MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR . J. WALLY McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the second report of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts. MR . CLERK : Your Committee met on Tuesday, April 15, 1980, to consider the Public Accounts of the province for the fiscal year which ended the 3lst day of March, 19 79.

Your Committee received, or has been assured that it will receive, all information desired by any member from the Minister , heads of departments and members of the Provincial Auditor's staff with respect to receipts, expenditures and other matters pertaining to the business of the province. The fullest opportunity was accorded to all members of the Committee to examine vouchers or any documents called for and no restriction was placed upon the line of examination. MR. McKENZ IE: I move, seconded by the Member for Lac du Bonnet, that the report of committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MR .

SPEAKE R: The Honourable Member for Radisson . MR. ABE KOVNATS : Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directed me to report same, and asks leave to sit again . I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Virden, that report of committee be received . MOTION presented and carried . MINISTERIAL ST ATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR . SPEAKE R: The Honourable Minister of Economic Development . HON. J. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek) : Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the 1978 -79.Annual Report of the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation . MR .

SPEAKER : Notices of Motion ••• INTRODUCTION OF BILLS MR. ALBERT DRIEDGER introduced Bill No. 41,

An Act to incorporate The Bethesda Foundation. ORAL QUESTIONS MR . SPEAKE R: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. - 244 7 -

Tuesday , 15 April, 198 0 MR. HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk) : Mr . Speaker, my question is to, I believe it's the Deputy Premier responsible for the Superin tendent of Insuran ce. Then , in the absence of the Minister of Consumer Affairs , I would direct my question to the Acting Minister , I believe the Deputy Premier.

Can the Deputy Premier advise whether or not there have been complaints that have been filed with the Superintendent of Insurance pertaining to the obtaining of inf ormation on the part of life insurance compani es , health insurance companies , the reliability of same and the criteria which has been used by those companies in making determinations based upon the accumulation of that material? INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR . SPEAKER: Order , order please . Can I ask the indulgence of the House to go back just prior to Oral Questions?

I forgot to introduce to the members of the Legislature 30 students of Grade 6 standing from King George V School, under the direction of Mrs. Richards. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for St. Bonifa ce. We have 29 students of Grade 6 standing from La Verendrye Elementary School, under the direction of Mr . Mel Hanna . This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member .for Fort Rouge. On behalf of.all the honourable members , we welcome you here this aftern oon . ORAL QUESTIONS (Cont'

d) MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Finan ce . HON. DONALD W. CRAIK · (Riel) : Mr . Speaker, I' 11 take the question on notice. The appropriate Minister is the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs . If there's any other inf ormation that the Leader of the Opposition could provide , it might be helpful. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY : Mr .

Speaker, as a further supplementary which can be also accepted by way of notice, whether if same to be the case , is the Superin tendent of Insurance in consultation with the Minister preparing a code , a code pertainin g to the accumulation of such information , as in fact is being done presently in other provinces? MR . CRAIK : Mr. Speaker, I'l l take that as notice on behalf of the Minister of Consumer Affairs. MR . PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister responsible for Community Services and Corrections.

Can the Minister advise whether a request has been referred to him by the Minister of Health and Social Development for a meeting with the Manitoba Association of Friendship Centre s, such a request having been made on March 3rd of this year? MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Community Services . HON . GEORGE MINAKER (St. James) : Mr . Speaker, I have been in communication, in fact I believe the letter went out today, inviting the Manitoba Federation Association to meet with me in my office - this is the Manitoba Metia Federation Association. Is that what the honourable member was asking? MR .

PAWLEY: Mr . Speaker, my question was in relationship to a request by the Manitoba Association of Friendship Centres for a meeting with the Minister pertaining to concerns that they have and wish to deal with, with the Minister respon sible. MR . MI NAKER: Mr . Speaker, a letter has gone out to the association asking them to contact me to make a date that is suitable to bOth parties, to meet with me in my office . - 2448 - - -

Tuesday, 1 5 April, 198 0 MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for The Pas . MR . RONALD McBRYDE : Mr . Speaker, my question is to the Minister responsible for the Environment, or in his absence, the appropriate Minister. I wond er if the province has been informed and has any new information on the hydrogen sulfide leak from a CN tank car at The Pas, Manitoba? MR . SPEAKER : Order of the Day . The Honourable Member for The Pas . MR . McBRYDE: Mr . Speaker, I would like to address a question to the Acting Minister of the Environ ment . I am assuming, Mr .

Speaker, that they will figure out who it is on the other side so that they can reply to my question. The second question to the Acting, or the Acting Acting Minister of the Environment, Mr . Speaker, is what action, if any, the province intends to take, because the CN line does pass through the centre of the town of The Pas and does carry dangerous chemicals on a regular basis through the town of The Pas, I wonder if there are any plans in terms of what can be done and any preparations made in terms of The Pas and the possible danger if such an occurrence should occur in a more serious way in the future? MR .

SPEAKE R: The Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs . HON . GERALD W.J. MERCIER (Osborne ): Thank you, Mr . Speaker. Unfortunately, Mr . Speaker, both Acting members are not present, one through illness and one through attendance at a funer al . I wi ll therefore take the question as notice for the Minister and respond later. MR . SPEAKE R: The Honourable Member for The Pas. MR . McBRYDE: Mr .

Speaker, a final supplementary question that the Minister might want to take as notice or the Minister of Transportation might want to deal with: During a previous suspected leak of a CN tanker at The Pas, when they phoned the emergency number listed by the CN for emergenc ies of this case, the person who answered the phone said, "You were lucky to get me; I was just going home." I wonder if the province could check whether the CN emergency number is in fact available at all times should a leakage in CN cars occur in the future, an accident occur in the future? MR .

SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs . MR . MERCIER : Mr . Speaker, I will also take that question as notice for the Mini ster . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs . HON . DOUG GOURLAY (Swan River): Thank you, Mr . Speaker. I could perhaps comment on the last question from the Member for The Pas.

I would like to advise the House that through the efforts of the Department of Northern Affairs, we are co-operating with other departments to hold a series of meetings in the north, namely Thompson and The Pas, the first week in May to discuss the topic of transportation of dangerous chemicals through northern communities. The various communities of the north have been invited to participate, along with other government departments and companies. The response has been overwhelming to participate in this meeting . The actual dates for The Pas are the 8th and 9th of May . MR.

SP EAKER: The Honourable Member for The Pas. MR . McBRY DE: Mr . Speaker, as a supplementary question to the Minist er 's comments, I wonder if the Minister will also be inviting union members, that is direct worker employees of CN, who are quite concerned about this matter, to attend this particular con ference that he is planning? - 2449 -

Tuesday , 15 April , 198 0 MR . GOURLAY : Yes, I can bring further details to the House as to the number of people that have been invited and those that are planning on participating . I'm not sure just exactly all the personnel that will be attending , but certainly I can bring this information to the House . MR . McBRYDE: Mr . Speaker, I would also ask if the Minister would ensure that members of other communities on the CN line , Cormorant, Wabowden , etc. , are also invited and made aware of this meeting , because I am sure they would have some concerns in this regard as well. MR .

SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Inkster. MR . SIDNEY GREEN: Mr . Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Honourable Minister of Health. In view of the fact that we have now information that hospital beds are not being serviced at the Health Sciences Centre , and now Victoria Hospital due to lack of nurse s, can the Minister of Health tell us whether there are any other hospitals in the province of Manitoba where we can expect to hear similar information? MR . SPEAKE R: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON . L. R. (B ud ) SHERMAN (Fort Garry ): Mr .

Speaker, thus far I have no indications from any other hospitals of impending bed closures due to shortages of nurse s. However, I must point out that at this time of year , it's certainly endemic and certainly customary in Manitoba that there are some relatively minor number of bed closures in Manitoba hospitals, particularly in Winnipeg hospitals.

There is a historic pattern of turnover of nursing staff in the sprin g , and in the intervening months prior to the time that new nursing graduation classes complete their studies and come on the market, there have historically been some bed closures in Winnipeg hospitals. They have not been disruptive and they have not impeded patient care in any way , and we don't anticipate anything out of the ordinary at the present time for this year . I have no indications from any other hospitals of impending closures at this juncture . MR . GREEN: Mr .

Speaker, in view of the fact that the Minister was surprised with the news that he received from the Health Sciences Centre , and in view of the fact that when he received that ne ws , he was not aware that the same situation occurred in Victoria Hospital , does the Minister think that it would be of some value for him to, rather than waiting for the news to arrive , and because the warnings that he has received to get in touch with the hospitals in Greater Winnipeg , to find out what the situation is so that neither he nor the rest of the people in the province of Manitoba will be surprised by such announc ements?

MR . SHERMAN: Indeed , Mr . Speaker, and I agree with the honourable member 100 percent , that in fact is what we are doing and what we have been attempting to do all this wint er. I might say that with respect to the closure of two beds in the ICU at the Victoria General Hospital , we were not surprised by that action, and the Victoria General Hospital reports that it is in no way out of the ordinary or an unusual action . In fact, the administrator of the Victoria General Hospital has reported that closures of one or two beds in the ICU there occur regularly from time to time.

It 's related to the supply of specialty nurses which is hard to measure and preaict with any accuracy , but in terms of the general subject area and the closure at the Health Sciences Centre , I conct:ide , Mr . Speaker , that the declamatory closure measure did catch the government and the Minist er 's office by surprise , and for that very reason , I am attempting to be careful in answering the first question of the Honourable Member for Inkster .

We have no indication from other hospitals that such closures are about to take place , we are monitoring them, we are staying in touch with them on an almost daily basis , but that had been the case in Janu ary , February and March , too, Mr . Speaker. MR . SP EAKEh: The Honourable Member for Inkster with a final supplementary . MR . GREEN: Mr . Speaker, I appreciate that there is sometimes a difference of opinion with regard to what amounts to a surprise , and Mr . Speaker, knowing my - 2450 -

Tuesday , 15 April, 1 98 0 honourable friend 's disposition to closure of any kind , and being conce rned with it, can I ask the Minis ter , by what mathematics - when he said it in the House it was some concern to me - by what mathematics he determined that 75 would be 10 percent of the beds, and that 61 would be 4 percent of the same figure? My impression is that 75 is 10 percent of 750 , and 61 would be 8 percent of 750 , and not 4 percent as the Minister stated in the House . MR . SHERMAN: Mr .

Speaker, I think if my honourable friend checks the record , he will find that those references were not made by me in the House in the first instan ce . They were made by me in the House in correcting a figure that had been publicized through the media earlier in the two week period surrounding the Health Sciences Centre bed closures. The original information that came from the Health Sciences Centre was that 75 nurses had indicated their intention of resigning , and that that amounted to 10 percent of the nursing staff.

In fact , Sir , as I subsequently reported in the House , that number was reduced to something in the 60s , and in fact it worked out to 4 percent of the nursing staff . How the original calculation was made , I'm not sure , but I assume that it perhaps was based on specific full time positions rather than equivalent full-tim es , which involves a considerable number of part-tim ers . MR. SPEAKE R: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR . DRIEDGER : Thank you, Mr . Speaker . I have a question to the Minister of Labour.

Since the Minister of Labour is involved in resolving disputes and appointing mediators in disputes , can the Minister of Labour confirm that the NDP executive have asked him for a mediator to resolve their differences within the NDP party? MR . SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Minister of Labour. HON . KEN MacMASTER (Thompson) : Well , I have had some experience in mediating and arbitrating , but I don 't really feel that the members opposite would appreciate my contribution . If I was asked to though, Mr . Speaker , I would prefer to be the arbitrator rather than the conciliator. MR .

SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Brandon East. MR . LEONARD s. EVANS: Mr . Speaker , I would like to address a question to the Minister of Economic Development , who has been very concerned about aerospace development in the province , and ask the Honourable Minister whether it is correct that the VooDoo Aircraft now being used , I understand , by the Canadian Forces , are being serviced or maintained by the Bristol Aerospace Company in Winnipeg? MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Economic Development . MR . JOHNST ON: Yes , Mr .

Speaker, I don't know whether all of the service on the CF-101 VooDoo is done in Winnipeg, but I know Bristol does a very large share of it. MR . EVANS: I wonder if the Honourable Minister could confirm that there are ,approximately 150 jobs involved in this type of maintenance or servicing , at least to the degree to which that company is involved , that there are 150 jobs and that they may possibly disappear when the new military aircraft is phased in? MR . JOHNSTON: The word "possibly" is right, Mr . Speaker .

Bristol and the aerospace industry in Manitoba have made representation and will be making further representation on the servicing of the new aircraft . The federal government Department of Defence do not intend to keep the old one . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon Last. MR . EVANS : I wonder if the Minister would follow this up , because I understand he is going to be negot�ating with Ottawa . I wonder if the Honourable - 2451 -

Tuesday , 15 April , 1980 Minister would undertake to use this in his neg otiations, and that is that there is a possibility of losing 150 jobs at Bristol Aerospace and that this should be a factor in allocating work to that company here in the province of Mani toba. MR . JOHNST ON : Well , I am very pleased about the member's concern finally . We have been bringing that to the attention of the federal government for the last six mont hs . MR . SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Member for River Heights. MR . GARY FILM ON: Mr . Speaker , my question is to the Minister of Health.

I wonder if he could confirm that in April ;J.974 , under another government , when presumably there wasn 't any major exodus of people from the province , there was an epidemic shortage of nurses that temporarily caused the closure of 350 beds in Manitoba . MR . SPEAKER: Order please . Order please . The Hon ourable Member for St . George. MR . BILLIE URUSKI : Mr .

Speaker, I draw to your attention the booklet that you distributed to honourable members in the House , which indicates Rule 11310 , questions by parliamentary secretaries, and it says that those, such as parliamentary secretaries, who are clothed with the respons ibility of answering for the government , ought not to use the time of Question Period for the privilege of asking questions of the government . The Member for River Heights is in fact a parliamentary secretary, Sir , and by the Rules that you have distributed should be clearly out of order . MR . SPEAKER: Order please . Order please .

I 111 try and deal with one point of order at a time. The point of order raised by the Honourable Member for St . George is one that does concern me , and I hope that the Honourable Member for St . George will read his book of Ru les , Orders and Forms of Proceeding on Page 58 dealin g with points of order. I find he did not have a point of order . However , I would like to point out that questions of confirmation of already known facts do not serve to provide any further information to the Chamber and I would have to rule the question out of order. The Honourable Member for St . Boniface on a point of order.

MR . LAURENT L. DESJARDINS : Mr . Speaker , I wish that you would have let me discuss the same point of order before you made a decision , because I was going to suggest that my honourable friend did not have a point of order, and I wanted to answer the question that was asked of me , but now you ruled it out and it is quite difficult. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR . RUSSELL DOERN : Mr .

Speaker , I wanted to direct a question to the Minister for Economic Development , and ask him whether it is true that the fastest growing business in Manitoba is the bailiff business , which is up some 400 to 500 percent since the Lyon administration took office? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Economic Development . MR . JOHNSTON: Mr .

Speaker, I watched the same television program the honourable member watched and naturally the bailiff business in the province of Manitoba is up because of the foreclosures that are happening in the hous- ing industry , mainly in housing , and I might say , Sir, that it is a very dis appointing thing. Certainly , if the manufac turing in the province continues to grow as it has in the past two years , we will start to have that business go down . MR . DOERN: I would ask the Mini ster, Mr .

Speaker, whether it is also true that collection agen cies in Manitoba are doing a booming busin ess , largely due to the failure of this administration 's economic policies? - 2452 -

Tuesday , 15 April , 1980 MR . JOHNSTON : Mr . Speaker, the last part of his question is that the economic policy of this government is such that we have the third lowest unemployment in Cana da. We have more people working in Manitoba in the past two years than we had previously and that will continue to grow. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood with a final supplementary . MR . DOERN : This is a more personal question , Mr . Speaker. Did the Minister know that MR . SPEAKER: Order please . I do not know whether it is in order to ask a personal question in this Chamber.

The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN : This has been bothering me for a long time, Mr . Speaker . Does the Minister know that a frown is only a smile turned upside down? MR . SPEAKER: Order please . Order please . May I suggest to the member that facetious questions should not take up part of the Question Period, I would have to rule it out of order. The Honourable Member for Wellington. MR . BRIAN CORRIN: Mr . Speaker, my question is for the Honourable Attorney-Gen eral .

I would like to know whether the Public Trustee 's viewpoint , as expressed in a letter to the Editor of the Winnipeg Free Press last Saturday , relative to sterilization procedures as they are sometimes performed on mentally-retarded people, is officially sanct ioned and endorsed as governmental policy . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-Genera l. MR . MERC IER : Mr . Speaker, I will have to take that question as notice and review that letter and respond to the member at a later date. MR . CORRIN : Yes, Mr .

Speaker , the Honourable Minister may wish to take this question as notice as well , but I would like him to apprise himself as to wpether or not there is a substantial incidence of illegal or unauthorized sterilizations taking place with respect to men tally-in competent individuals in our province , and I would ask him if he could to report back to us in this regard as soon as possible? MR. MERC IER : Yes , Mr . Speaker, I will take that question as notice too. MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. D. JAMES WALDING : Mr . Speaker , my question is to the Honourable Minister reporting for Hydro.

In view of the fact that companies bidding on the Burntwood Envir onmental Study were asked to keep their tenders open or their bids open un til April 14th , which was yesterday , can the Minister now inform the House whether that contract has been let? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finan ce . MR . CRAIK : Mr . Speaker, I am not aware of the conditions with regards to the proposals that are before the Board. My understanding is that the Board still has the question under review and in due course will issue its own decision in that regard. MR . WALDING: A supplementary question , Mr . Speaker.

In view of the unusual circumstances that bidders on the contract have been asked to hold their bids open for five months now, will the Minister require those bidding companies to keep their bids open for a further length of time? - 2453 -

Tuesday , 15 April, 1980 MR . CRAIK: Mr . Speaker , in answer to that I can indicate to the member that it will not be my intention to indicate any instructions to the people that are involved in the proposals with regards to the Burntwood Study . But I understand , to repeat , Mr . Speaker , that the Board has asked to look at the proposals and will be giving them further consideration. MR . WALDING : A question to the same Mini ster , Mr . Speaker.

I wonder if the Minister can confirm that the favoured bidder, James McLare n, was also associated in the same bid with another consulting company by the name of InterGroup? MR . CRAIK: Mr . Speaker, I can' t confirm who is involved in the bidding with regards to this proposal for the Burntwood River. I would suggest that the best method of examination is when the utility is bef ore the Public Utilities Committee that the member raise his questions and examine them in full . MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for St . Vital with a fourth question. MR . WALDING : A fourth question , Mr . Speaker.

I would like to further ask the same Minister whether the said InterGroup has done a considerable amount of consult ing work for the federal government and one of the principles of that company is a well-known Liberal? MR . CRAIK : Well , Mr . Speaker, what we have got now is a continuation of naming people or naming firms in the House without their own ability to be able to reply . That sort of question should not be placed in the House .

That kind of information , if it is of importance, can be directed to the Utilty, or the member can pick up the telephone , if it is a Manitoba firm, and phone them direct and ask them. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-Gener al. MR . MERCIER : Mr . Speaker , in response to a previous question from the Member for St . Boniface as to whether or not there were character references obtained from the RCMP or the Police when the Licensing Board considered applications for operations of casin os. I can confirm to him, Mr .

Speaker, that indeed individuals applying to operate casinos or working casinos are checked with the Police. MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for St. Boni face. MR . DESJA RDINS: Mr . Speaker , I would like to thank the Minister and if the Minister remembers I also asked him who was being investigated before granting a licen ce, was it the group that would share in the revenue or those running the casino? I also asked the Minister if somebody with a criminal record could be licenced or if there was anybody at this time who had had a criminal record that were runnin5 ea inos in Manitoba? MR . MERC IER: Mr .

Speaker , I can give to the Member for St . Boniface a copy of the application by the organization to operate a casino . Indeed , information is requested from organizations who apply for the licence and information is checked with the police as to those people who actually do the operation of the cas ino or work in the casino . It is a hypothetical question as to whether someone with a criminal record could be approved to work in a casino . I suppose the Board does received information back from the RCMP or the Po lice. The diff iculty I would have in respondin g to that , Mr .

Speaker, is if, for example , someone has been convicted a considerable number of years ago and has obviously conducted themselves outside of the law without reproach, then obviously their record should not be hela against them. So it would depend , I would think, on the circumstances of the individual employee or operator who applies , Mr . Speaker. MR . DESJARD INS : Mr . Speaker, I would be pleased to receive a copy of the application , but then it might be that I will want to ask more questions . It - 2454 -

Tuesday , 15 April, 198 0 wasn 't a hypothetical question , I asked if anybody well , first of all it wasn 't just somebody working in a casino , but somebody running the casino , the head of a corporation or an individual. Then I asked, are there any of these people who had a previous record who received a licence , or could they receive a licen ce . Now I think the Minister will agree with me that in a certain area if you have a criminal record you cann ot, to safeguard the public - I' m not saying it's right or wrong - but they cannot be licensed , and this is the question that I was asking. MR .

SPEAKER : Orders of the day . The Honourable Member for Transcona . MR . WILSON PARASIUK: Mr . Speaker, my question is directed to the Acting Premier. Can the Acting Premier commit to the House that the government will table its position on constitutional reforms, the Quebec referendum and alternatives to that referendum in this Legislature before major pronouncements on these issues are made outside the House so that a proper discussion of the government 's positions on these matters can be made? MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Finan ce . MR . CRAIK : Mr.

Speaker , that question is more appropriately directed to the First Minist er, and in view of the fact that there are a number of things taking place in the next week or two with regards to the question of national unity , the referendum and so on , and in particular I refer to the western Premier's conference next week in Lethbridge, that I think perhaps the member may wish to give that consideration . I fully expect that the Premier will be able to deal with the agenda as soon as he has returned from his trip to Ottawa . MR . PARASIUK : Mr .

Speaker , my question to the Acting Premier was would he in fact make a commitment to the House that before major pronouncements are made outside the House on these vital matters, that the House would be given an opportunity to discuss these matters and the Minister has not answered that particular question . Perhaps he misunderstood it. MR . CRAIK : Mr. Speaker , the government is pretty attentive to following that pattern with regards to advising the House much more so than has occurred in past years , Mr . Speaker . I would indicate to the member that if that pattern is followed, that would certainly happen.

If on the other hand there are decisions made and statements made as a result of interprovincial conferen ces , it could be quite expected that there would be direct statement s made, so I can't give the member that clear undertaking . It certainly will be passed on and available to the First Minister on the record. MR . SPEAKER: supplementary. The Honourable Member for Transcona with a final MR .

PARASIUK: In view of the fact that I infer from the Minister 's answer that he has committed to the House , that no major statements on national unity and matters of that nature will be made before any major interprovincial conferences , or federal/p rovincial conferen ces, I would ask the Minister if he would pass on that,commitment to the First Minister? MR . CRAIK : Mr . Speaker, that wasn 't just quite the commitment that the member is putting the

interpretation on . However, his full remarks are recorded on the Hansard and the First Minister will be most pleased to hear the first of the Member for Transco na ' s wishes and his own concerns about statements in the House . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St . George. MR . URUSKI : Thank you, Mr . Speaker. I direct this question to the Minister responsible for flood fighting and ask him - last year he gave an unde rtaking in committee that areas outside the Red River Valley would be covered - 2455 -

Tuesday , 15 April, 198 0 under the program of diking of farmsteads and the like that were affected by flooding . Could the Minister tell this House why the Manitoba Flood Board has refused assistance in the area of the Fisher River watershed when applications were made? MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Government Services . HON . HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside) : Mr . Speaker, in reply to the Honourable Member for St . George , the reason is si mply that a government decision has not as yet been made .

It calls for an extension of policy that would enable the Flood Board to provide the same services beyond the presently designated area , which is the Red River Valley , to the area such as the Fisher River and other areas . That matter is being considered by government and at such time that a decision is made , an announcement will be forthcoming. MR .

URUSKI : If the Minister will check Hansard and recall his comments ; I' d ask him to recheck it because he made statments that rivers namely , and he quoted names like the Icelandic , Fisher, and other rivers and streams in the province of Manitoba , he indicated those areas would be covered under the government program. Now he is telling us that that policy decision has not been made. Could he·undertake to review his statements of last year and instruct the Man itoba Flood Board to look at those areas and consider the applications of those people? MR . ENNS : Mr .

Speaker, I believe the honourable member is confusing several programs that are in eff ect . Those streams that he mentioned , indeed quite a number of them are in fact covered by flood-fightin g and flood- protection programs through the reimbursement of costs incurred by municipalities affected� The Department of Water Resources under my colleague's jurisdiction assists in the flood damages and costs that were incurred by municipalities in these streams.

But the program that he is referrin g to, the individual homeowners or farmers who are applying for assistance to raise or move or to ring-dike their individual farmsteads, that program has not been extended beyond the Red River Valley . It is my wish and my hope that it shall be , but it is not a matter of government policy at this point. MR . SP EAKER: The Honourable Member for The Pas . MR . McBRYDE : Mr . Speaker , I have a question for the Minister of Northern Affairs .

Since 1966 the province of Manitoba , in relation to the Grand Rapids Forebay Agreement , has provided a night soil and garbage pick-up service for all the residents of the relocated community of Easterville . I wonder if the Minister could now tell us why this government has reneged on this flood agreement and no longer provides this service to the treaty residents of the community of Easterville? MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs . MR . GOURLAY: Thank you , Mr . Speaker. In answer to that question , the province feels that it has lived up to its commitment.

Discussions were held with the previous federal Minister of Indian and Northern Affairs , and he agreed that it was definitely a feoeral responsibility and agreed that they would be responsible for the night soil pick-up in those two communitie s. MR . McBRYDE: Yes , Mr . Speaker , I wonder if the Minister is aware that the federal government has not , to this point , agreed with the community to accept these responsibilities and whether, Mr .

Speaker, he sees the province having no responsibililty in light of the Grand Rapids Forebay Agreement and the fact the province has been proviuing this service under both Conservative and NDP governments since 1966. MR . GOURLAY : Further discussions have been held with the federal authorities and they indicated to my staff that the local officer in charge in - 2456 -

Tuesday, 15 April, 198 0 Winnipeg here, I forget his name, had the authority to make the necess ary agreements with the reserves. We have agreed to provide those services, but at a cost, and we are prepared to continue those services . However, the federal government will be picking up the tab on it, and we are waiting to hear further on that. We are prepared to continue with the service, but we feel that we 'v e completed our commitment and subje ct to the further discussions by the federal people and the reserves in question, we 'd be pleased to co-operate further. MR .

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for The Pas with a final supplementary. MR . McBRYDE: Mr . Speaker, I want to address a question to the Minister of Tran sportation on another matter. I wonder if the Minister of Tran sportation has any good news yet about the proposal . for funding by the province of The Pas Handi-Van Service and whether or not this proposal, which has met up to all the requirements of the Minister of Highways and is similar to a service presently being provided to the community of Steinb ach, whether that has been approved or will be approved in the near future? MR .

SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Highways. HON . DON ORCHARD (Pembina) : Yes, Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Rupertsland . MR . HARVEY BOSTROM : Thank you, Mr . Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Manpower for the province of Manitoba, relating to the issue that was raised by the Minister responsible for Manpower and Immigration fecterally, in which they have announced they will be seeking ways of improving job- creation programs for the provinces.

I wonder if the Minister can announce anything to the House regarding any discussions that he may have had with the Minister, or any details of any cost-sharing that may be available through the provincial government with respect to any new programs of this nature? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR . MacMASTE R: Mr . Speaker, I read with interest on, I think three occasions, the Federal Minister of Immigration 's pronouncements in the newspapers as to job-creation programs that were bein g considered, were going to be in place and were being thought of.

I think it was Press Release No. 2, that we sent a telegram to Ottawa to get some definition of what they were talking about and there was nothing definite that time. There was nothing definite the first time, and I guess to exactly answer the quest ion, I'm not sure if there is anything definite this particular time. But when in fact the Federal Minister makes the announcement, I' ll be pleased to inform the Member for Rupertsland as to what the Federal Minister is talking about; I have no idea at this particular time, Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : The Hon ourable Member for Rupertsland, with a final question.

MR . BOSTROM : Mr . Chairman, given the fact that the federal government seems to be interested in pursuing this type of program, can the Minister report to the House that he is instructing his officials to come up with programs or proposals which can be discussed with the federal government, with respect to job-creation programs? I would think he would be looking particularly at those areas of Manitoba that are suffer ing from high levels of unemployment at the present time. MR .

MacMASTER : I would agree with the Member for Rupertsland that the federal government and, in particular, the Minister, seems to be interested in talking about programs, but I haven 't seen anythin g, and once I do, I' m prepared to discuss them with him. MR. SPE AKER: Order, please. The time for question period having expired, will proceed with Orders of the Day . - 2457 -

Tuesday , 15 April, 198 0 ORDERS OF THE DAY MR . SPEAKER: The first item of business is an Order for Return , moved by the Hon ourable Member for Brandon East, which I took under advisement the other day when the Minister of Fitness and Amateur Sport, in accepting the Order for Return , had some reservations about the third part of the order. Is there some indication from the Member for Brandon East to let it proceed with just the first two sections? Am I correct in that matter? The Honourable Member for Brandon East. MR . EVANS: Mr.

Speaker, are you advisin g us that you'r e rulin g Sec tion 3 of the request for the Order for Return - are you saying now , that of these three sections , 1, 2 and 3, that

Section 3, in your opinion , is out of order? MR . SPEAKER : Order, please . It 's improper to ask a question direct of the Speaker. However , I can advise the House that I do have a problem. If I were to make a rulin g on whether or not

Section 3 is in order or no t, if I were to decide it was not in order, I would have to rule the entire Order for Return out of order . I'm just wond ering if there's any consensus to proceed with the first two parts, so that ·I would avoid making that type of ruling? The Hon ourable Member for Brandon East. MR . EVANS: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. Well , consider ing the dilemma that you are obviously in, we .would then request an Order for Return respecting Sections 1 and 2 only . MR . SPEAKER: Is that acceptable to the Minister of Fitness and Amateur Sport? MR . BANMAN : Ye s, Mr .

Speaker, that deals with the Thorne , Riddell expenses as we ll as the legal expen ses , dealin g with the McKenzie Seeds to date. We don't have any problem with that. • MR . SPEAKER: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt that Motion then? (Agreed ) The Hon ourable Government House Leader. MR . MERC IER: I move, Mr . Speaker , seconded by the Minister for Government Services , that Mr . Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the supply to be granted to Her Majesty .

MOTION presented and carried , and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Hon ourable Member for Radisson in the Chair for Natural Resources, and the Honourable Member for Roblin in the Chair for the Department of Government Services . CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - GOVERNMENT SERVICES MR . CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor (Virden) : Call the committee to order. We 'r e on Resolution 72, 3. (a) (l) --pass - the Member for Elmwood. MR . DOERN : Mr .

Chairman , the other day in the House I asked the Minister a question about the pickup of garbage contracted out, and there are some interesting developments there in that the city of Winnipeg, I understand , uncovered some price- fixing on the part of some of the contractors that they used .

I asked the Minister , I think a couple of days ago, if not longer, whether he had checked which firms we were using in the provincial government , and whether these same firms were alleged to be price-fix ing or in collusion in terms of contrac ting city of Winnipeg garbage pickup, and I just wondered if he had anything to report to the committee at this time. - 2458 -

Tuesday , 15 April, 1980 MR . CHAIRM AN: The Honourable Minist er. MR . ENNS: Mr . Chairman, first of all I don 't acknowledge that the question was asked of me in the House . I do remind the honourable member, though, that we have passed that item in the estimates. It 's of course , quite appropriate for him to deal with it, as I imagine we will deal with many items in general in the considerations of the Minister 's Salary .

But I don 't mind , because the member asked that question earlier on in the House and I didn't have the information in front of me at that time , yes we do hire a number of contracts in the different districts. I can list some of them, in District One it is a firm called Acme, in addition to a firm called Browning-F erris , and outside of the city there are a number of additional , I assume to be smaller , individual contractors that bid on this type of work. There are individual names , W.

Isakowski and Son, in District 3, that's in the Brandon area , they look after such things as the Land Titles Buildings in Bran don , the Courthouse in Brandon , and we have a chap by the name of Mr . N. Spangelo looking after the Land Titles Buildings in Morden ; we have Acme again in District Four doing some of the work in the Thompson area , so the answer to the honourable member is that, yes , this is part of the regular process of the Department of Government Services and , to answer his more specific question , I have had no information with regard to happenings at City Counc il.

We have·had no reason to believe that there are any problems in the area of garbage collection with respect to the contrac ts that we administer through the Department of Government Services. MR. DOERN : Mr.

Chairman , I would ask the Minister whether he would either phone or write or have his department or assistant contact the Commissioner of Works and Operations , or the Committee Chairman responsible for Works and Wperations and maybe get some data and then determine whether the same people are being used by the province, and if so, keep his eye on the situation , because there can be some very peculiar developments in this area.

I recall a situation four or five years ago when a contractor asked for an incre ase , said that they couldn 't possibly • • This is sort of a different story, but it's in the same area . The contrac tor said he couldn' t possibly carry on at the same price , that he had to have an increase of 50 percent or something. My Deputy Minister told him that wasn 't acceptable and that we would re-tender the contrac t. So we re-tendered the contrac t. The same person who said that he couldn 't carry on , that he was losing money , then bid at about half the price that he was receiving .

Now, this is a very strange situation and the impression was that here you had a man, a firm said they couldn 't carry on , they needed a big incre ase , suddenly they re-tendered for the new contract and submitted an entry of half of what they previously received , and our assess ment was that they were trying to drive out everybody from the industry . There was always a lot of dark rumours about different contracts and who ultimately owned them; I'm talking about criminal elements, etc . But these were only rumours , so I couldn 't place much credence in them.

But certainly that was a very peculiar experience, and now, as I said , I understand , and it has to be checked through, I heard some news report saying that the city had uncovered some collusion. I say I think it's incumbent on the Minister to find out the details and then to see whether any of those firms are working for him and to sort of keep his eye on the situation, to make sure that there is no monkey business in regard to provincial contracts. MR . ENNS : Mr. Chairman , I can assure the honourable member that his concern will be acted upon by departmental staff .

The Deputy Minister informs me that he has been in touch with the chief commissioner , ana I think, what with the services of both Mr . Hryhorczuk and Mr. Coyle , who have immediate close association with the city, that we can avail of ourselves and assure ourselves that there will be a full and free flow of information on this subject matter and that if there is indeed a problem, that we would be in a position to have that information made available to us very quickly. I'm also advised , Mr .

Chairman, that we are going to tender on a goodly number of these contrac ts very shortly , particularly Districts One and Two here in the city , and of course at tender time one hopes that the tender process helps to focus on any of the kinds of problems that the honourable member raises . - 2459 -

Tuesday , 15 April , 198 0 Forewarned is forearmed, and we will be looking at it with a considerable amount of caution. MR . CHAIRMAN: 3. (a) (1) --p ass ; 3. (a) (2) --p ass ; 3. (b) (1) --p ass . The Member for Elmwood. MR . DOERN: Mr . Chairman , the central Vehicle Bran ch, we had an intere sting discussion a couple of years ago about the possible use of air bags in automobiles , and my impression was , at the time, that the Minister was sympathetic to the purchase of a number of them to test, but when I look back at some news reports from a couple of years ago, the General Manager of Autopac, J.O.

Dutton , said that they were going to begin a test project which will involve the entire government fleet. There was a decision made by the Corporation and then three days later in the paper the headline is, "Enns Denies Air Bag Reports" . Can he explain just what happened? Is the Minister not just interested in this area , but actually going to do something ; is anything being done in terms of some air bags being purchased and tested or experimented with by the provincial government? MR . ENNS : Well , Mr . Chairman , I can recall that period of time very well.

It evoked considerable discussion about the pros and cons of various safety devices , seat belts versus air bags . The Autopac Corporation , of course , has an interest in the matter of safety or a reduction in the bodily injury claims, and the Chairman of Autopac did indicate at that time to me I was at that time also the Reporting Minister for MPIC hope or desire that they would consider putting , for instan ce , their fleet of cars , which are not that many that MPIC has , or try to arrange for a test involvin g air bags .

One of the problems about air bags is the relatively expensive initial cost of installation , which to this date , I would. suggest to the honourable member, has hindered the air bag from becoming an acceptable safety feature in our automobiles. Even though the air bag has in many instances demonstrated fairly high safety features in specific applications , specific kinds of accident s, but the installation costs run - and I shouldn 't be doing this, but if I recall - into the several hundreds of dollars and possibly in excess of that now .

I would have to indicate to the honourable member that it was perhaps largely for that reason that the management at Autopac at that time decided to forego that particular test. They did, as you will recall, enter into a fairly extensive twelve- month study , evaluation , of the use of seat belts by having all accidents reported in Manitoba fill out a special form indicated whether seat belts were worn or not , the position that the driver was in in the car at the time of the accident .

Nobody at Autopac and certainly not this Minister was attempting to present that data collection as a scientific study of the problem; it was meant simply to give us some Manitoba based statistics that we could use from time to time as we discussed the virture of seat belts, the compulsory wearing of seat belts , and/or other safety features . It was in this context that the question of air bags arose . The short answer to the honourable member , after a long

preamble , is that no , no experimentation with air bags has been carried out by the Department of Government Services with respect to its fleet or in fact to my knowledge , by MPIC . MR . DOERN : Mr . Chairman, I have to tell the Minister that to me this is disappointing in that I think that the province has a role to play here in terms of·public education and , given the provincial budget approaching $2 billion, given an expend iture here for the central vehicle branch of $7 million , it strikes me that the Minister should be able to free up a couple of thousand dollars to do some experimentat ion .

The other question interests me more and that is in relation to seat belts , because I know the Minister showed some interest or feigned some interest in this about a year ago. As I said , I am sorry to see that he didn't get an Academy Award last night . I was one of his supporters , but he didn 't get an award , perhaps an honourable mention . -- (Interjection)- - Well, I do n't know. No, he didn 't finish in the top category. But he was interested in the issue , as any Highways Minister is.

I have never attended a Highways Ministers ' meeting , but I am pretty sure that when they meet together in National Conference that the overwhelming majority are in favour of compulsory seat belts . I expected him to come out in favour, as our previous Ministers did. - 2460 -

Tuesday , 15 April , 198 0 So I wanted to ask him, he was just saying that there was an acquisition of data and I assume that was when he was • • • Was that as Highways Minister that he ordered that or Autopac Minister or was it as Government Services Minister that he was acquiring and accumulating statistics as to whether a person was wearing a seat belt in a specific acc ident . MR. ENNS : Mr . Chairman, that was requested at the time and volunteered , I must say , by the corporation , by Mr .

Dutton , Chairman of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation, during the time that I had the respons ibility for both the corporation and the Department of Highways and Transp ortation. MR . DOERN: So the Minister doesn 't have that information available to the committee. MR . ENNS: No, Mr . Chairman, I don 't have that information available . I would suggest that the inf ormation would be available and I think was left with the Department of Highways, as well as would be an appropriate question to raise again at Public Utilities Committee when the officers of the corporation are before us.

Just before we leave , the member ment�oned his disappointment about not carrying on even with some modest testing of the air bag question . I really think and I don 't in any way suggest an attempt to shift the responsibility for that suggestion , the suggestion did come from Autopac as a possible thing they might consider.

But I think really upon thinking about it a little further they realize that there extensive tests carried out on these matters by far more qualified associations and people, namely the automotive industry itself, by various different safety counc ils and consumer safety testing device associations in the United States, where under fairly sophisticated circumstances actual crashes of numbers of vehicles and cars with dummy persons in them, etc.

The suggestion that we , in a small way , should attempt to collect data on that matter and not rely on the data that is available , I think is probably what deterred the decision from proceeding to attempting to test something on which a substantial amount of money and a substantial deal o.f experimentation has taken place. My inf ormation is that the data and the experimentation is there. It 's there to be accepted and it is accepted by some.

I know that the Allstate Insurance Company in the United States automatically reduces your insurance premium by 15 percent to anybody that installs an air bag in his vehicle . · So I don 't think it is a question of deciding whether or not the air bag is a worthwhile safety feature . The problem is the installation costs amounting to several hundreds of dollars, and this has to be incurred after every crash , and it could be a relatively light crash that triggers the mechanism to inflate and then it has to be , apparently , taken back to a dealer for reinstallation .

It 's the technique or technology of making the air bag acceptable to the average motorist. Apparently it still has something wantin 6• MR . DOERN: Mr . Chairman , as the Minister responsible for the fleet and as also the Minister responsible for Autopac, is there any premium • • • I guess seat belts are compulsory on all new cars. In the event of an accident , if a civil servant is wearing a seat belt during an accident - well either wearing a seat belt or not wearing a seat belt - is there any relation between that sit4ation and the settlement that could be offered in the even of injury? MR . ENN S: Mr .

Chairman , I do believe that we are straying from the estimates of the Department of Government Services , however the honourable member does touch on the kind of direction and the kind of support that I was giving to a seat belt in the consideration of seat belt legislation . It is my belief that rather than compulsory seat belt legislation per se , that there are a number of ways in which the encouragement of the wearing of seat belts can be done . It can be done , as in some jurisdiction , by in ef fect having it accrue to the benefit of the wearer of seat belts at time of accident .

The country of West Germany , for instan ce, has compulsory seat belt legislation but no enf orcement , absolutely no enforcement of it. But if you are caught in an accident and have occasioned bodily injury and you are hospitalized , you are responsible for 15 percent of your - 2461 -

Tuesday , 15 Ap ril , 198 0 medical expen ses . Now that's a pretty solid incentive to the wearing of seat belts and the incidence of wearing seat belts is fairly high in those kinds of jurisdictions . MR . DOERN: You said 15? MR . ENNS: 15 percent . Now I am sure that there are some maximums to that because I don 1 t think it was meant to deny the person the bene fits of a long established system of social universal health care in that country .

But in other jurisdictions , and the jurisdiction that I was principally interested in was in reflect ing an immediate saving on the premium of Autopac to the wearer of seat belts . You may ask , how is this policed. Well it is policed simply because there is a penalty clause attached to the fact that at the time of any accident occurring and the person is not wearing seat belts that it reflects back on his premium. So it was in this area of seeking some incentives through the wearing of seat belts that I was moving . However , I remind the honourable member through you , Mr .

Chairman, who has kept this committee in such good order and with such a good deal of decorum, that we are now discussing aspects that are not germane to these estimates. MR . DOERN : Mr . Chairman, just another related point here and I' m talking about the car fleet and I am talking about the Minister responsible for it. Has he ever encouraged , by memorandum or public speeches or anythin g else , encouraged the civil servants who drive government fleet vehicles to wear their seat belts or buckle up? MR . ENNS : No, Mr . Chairman , I can't say that I have done that .

I can also not say that I do it by example , not wearing a seat belt in most instan ces . MR . DOERN : I think the Minister should consider encouraging people, still on a voluntary basis , which would appeal to him, that the people who drive government vehicles in particular but their own vehicles as well, should be encouraged to use their seat belts . Maybe a voice recorded message saying this is your Minister speaking and then a little message , "Your government loves you, 11 and similar things . MR . ENNS : Mr.

Chairman , we have made an important deviation in the purchasin g policies of the government fleet inasmuch as that we are now purchasing government vehicles with radios. And so perhaps it is quite possible that a tapeo message from the Minister could be available to the civil servants as they enter in the car, first thing in the morning •• They could switch Peter Warren off for a short moment and hear a brief message , perhaps a short song from their Mini ster, encouraging them to wear seatbelts. I' ll undertake to do that , Mr . Chairman. MR . CHAIRM AN : 3. (b) (l) , the Member for Logan. MR .

WI LLIAM JENKINS : Yes , Mr . Chairman . In the Minister 's opening statement on page 2, the Minister stated that as a matter of department policy in recognizing the need for energy conservat ion , the Central Vehicle Branch has been instructed to purchase compact cars for its Vehicle Replacement Program and an improved vehicle cost inf ormation system has been initiated to obtain better inf ormation on vehicle operating costs. I think this is a good thing that the Minister is doing.

What I want to ask the Min ister, if he and other members of the Treasury Bench - and the best way that you can lead people is by an example - that the best leaders are those who, by their exemplory conduct and behaviour , set a pattern that others should follow - my question to the Minister is, when the new replacement of cars in the Vehicle Branch fleet , for the Ministers will come due , will we be seein g Mi nisters , and especially the Minister of Government Services , driving a compact car? MR . CHAIRM AN: The Hon ourable Minist er. - 2462 -

Tuesday , 15 April , 198 0 MR . ENNS : Mr. Chairman, the subject that the Honourable Member for Logan raises is one that we have paid more than just lip service to. Of the approximately 1,3 00 sedans now in operation in the government fleet we have some 258 of them are now compacts and this will be added to this year as we approve an additional 150 replacement vehicles which will also be compacts. That means that by the end of this year , 38 percent of the sedan fleet will be compact cars.

The question that the honourable member raises with respect to cars for executive counc il members ; I can indicate to the honourable member that the reduction has taken place to some extent , in the sense that the manuf acturer is now producing what a few years ago would be called a medium compact , is now the standard car . Perhaps the best demonstration of that is, for those of you who walk out the front door of the building, if you notice the Minister of Health's red car - I don' t know what make it i�. Is it a Meteor?

That was the last car purchased by the previous administration for executive council ; it's about two or three feet longer than the cars that we are purchasing for our present cabinet Ministers . But I'm not attempting to suggest we have not come down to the compact cars for executive coun cil, we are going to the curent class of what the industry calls the medium-s ize Chevrolets, Pontiac s, or Fords. MR . FOX : Thank you, Mr . Chairman.

Well then , the Mini ster, by his statement, damns himself and the Treasury Bench because , as I stated in my remarks, the best way that you can lead is by example and if you 'r e not going to show the examples to others then I say that you are providing poor leadership. And I would state that the Minister review this policy and the members of the Treasury Ben ch.

I mean , if you want - you'r e not just influencing the members of the provincial government ; I think you would also set an example to other people in other walks of society in our province if they could see the First Minister driving in a compact and the Minister of Highways and others, I mean , by your example you will provide good leadership. If you'r e not prepared to do th at , then I would say that you are providing very bad leadership because all you' re doing then is paying lip service to that sort of a program. And the Minister has stated that they are not prepared to do th at.

Well, then we just have to, by his very example , he has shown that for the civil servant s, they'l l have compact cars ; for th� members of the Treasury Bench , we ll, they 'l l have something that'l l be just a little bit better .

And I think that is a very poor example for the Minister and especially , the Minister of Government Services , who is primarily the one who provides the fleet. - I mean, yesterday , when the Minister admonished me that I should be riding the bus here to work because I was askin g him about entrance egress to the Legislative grounds, I would say the old adage that he who lives in glass houses shouldn 't throw stones. MR. ENNS : Mr. Chairman , I don' t live in a glass house and I don't throw stones but , Mr .

Chairman , there are occasions in the true tradition of the parliamentary system of government where we look to the opposition to showing some leadership as well and the Leader of the Opposition , of course , had an opportunity of showing that leadership in the selection of his car in this particular item and he chose a car similar to the ones that the members of the Treasury Bench ride in.

I say this, more seriously , that the amount of mileage that most Minister 's put on - and there will always be in the fle et, we 'r e not suggesting for a moment that, we will convert the fleet completely into compacts - there are , and there will be the recognition of special requirements by some departments.

I can think of some requirements in the area of the Department of Highways and the area of Northern Affairs and other departments where stationwagons , or because of the terrain that they cover and the kind of people ana/or supplies that they are called upon to carry , or to keep with them, will require the use of larger stationwagons , vans , other than compact vehicles . And it's in that sense , I believe , that the Minister 's cars , whose mileage is substantial throughout rural Manitoba.

When you look at some of my colleagues on the Treasury Bench who are driving from Melita ; from Boissevain ; from Steinba ch; from Woodlands , that metropolitan center of the interlake and such areas and even though I was Minister of Highways and I came very close to making those substantial improvements to all our roads, - 2463 -

Tuesday , 15 April , 1980 there still are some roads that require some additional work that my colleague, Mr . Orchard , is now working on , that the use of a standard vehicle , I believe , is entirely justifiable on the part of the Treasury Bench members. MR. CHAIRM AN : 3. (b) . The Member for Kildonan . MR . PETER FOX : Well , this is an intriguing subject. Being an old army chap , I'd like to know whether there's been any cost study done in respect to having a fleet and having drivers for Ministers .

Invariably I see , and the same thing happens· to most members when the House is in session , but especially for Ministers that their cars are here all day long and they 'r e only driven here in the morning , maybe out for lunch and then back again and here for the rest of the day until they go home.

The other reason I ask is that, specifically Ministe rs , who are under a great amount of duress because of the work that they have to do and of course the kind of functions that they have to attend , whether it wouldn' t be feasible and more cost benefit to have drivers for them, so they wouldn 't have to have the chore of driving as well, having the car laid up for a number of hours being idle and whether it wouldn 't provide a better and more efficient service for Ministe rs .

Now for weekends the pool car could be utilized in other fashions , or else possibly most Ministers , like other family people , have an extra car at home anyway s, so there would be no problem and if there was Government Services ' involvement occasionally , there could be mileage provided. But I am just wondering if there has ever been any look at this kind of proposition and , as I say , particularly because of the kind of pressure that Ministers live under whether they shouldn 't be better off being driven than having to drive themselves? MR . ENNS : Mr .

Chairman , it is an interesting suggestion by the Member for Kildonan. I know that he is aware , as I am aware , that in some jurisdictions this is in fact taking place. MR. FOX : Ontario has it, Quebec has it. MR . ENNS: The question of whether or not a cost-benefit study has been done to see whether this could be done at less public expense than currently for the reasons that he mentioned , and the fact that a number of vehicles are tied up or are not utilized for a good portion of the day is something that perhaps could be entertain ed.

I should indicate to the honourable members that there was an attempt made earlier on in our administration to utilize staff , particularly from the staff of Govern ment Services , one of our building guides and security guards.

We were encouraged and I was encouraging particularly the Premier and/or other Ministers as they had business in the city particularly, that the problem of parking and the problem of driving , all the things the honourable member mentioned , as the Minister has his mind on other things , whether or not it woulon 't be just a lot more func tional and less expensive , quite frank ly , to have somebody designated to drive and who was so designated that if a Minister had a luncheon meeting to ·atten d that a five minute call down to the front desk and a person so designateo could take any car or a car , a pool car available , and drive the Minister or Ministers or Premier to these func tions . · However, Mr .

Chairman , I must admit either it is our great proletarian background or whatever it is , we somehow feel uncomfortable by being chauffeured , with or without black gloves and uni forms and hats , and the great propensity for individual driving that inflicts most North Americans is still very much evident with these Treasury Bench Min isters. That experiment lasted only a few weeks , and the Premier and everybody else is jumping into their cars and driving . I might add that I could hope that some Ministers shouldn 't drive as much. The repairs to the automobiles might be reduced from time to time.

I better not get into that or else I will get into trouble with my Cabinet colleagues . MR . FOX : Mr . Chairman , aside from the philosophical levity that the Minister wanted to inject , I should also like to say that from a preventive maintenance point of view , professional drivers would look after vehicles much - 2464 -

Tuesday , 15 April , 1980 more attentively than Ministers or than even I do for my own vehicle, because we have a tendency to procrastinate and put things off because we have others things which are more important than the vehicle at the moment. So I would suggest that the Minister have a hard look at this, that his department do a study , because in my opinion there are very many benefit ing facets to having a chauffeur-driver Executive Counc il and possibly some others who are involved and who necessitate having cars.

It could probably be more eff icient than assigning one vehicle to each individual and with having four or five extra empty seats driving around the city , paying for parking and a lot of other things , as the Minister mentioned . I would hope the Minister would have a hard look at this and see whether he can't get sorne indication from his staff , aside from the desire by the Ministers to do their own driving . I think human nature being what it is , it takes a little while for us to change our attitudes �nd sometimes we have to be pressured into doing it, even though it is for our own benefit .

Like somebody should twist my arm that I should stop smoking . They haven 't done it hard enough because I can't make the decision myself. But I think there would be benefits if the Ministers and some of the other top officials were chauffeur-driven. We would probably use less cars . They would be better maintained by professional drivers . There would be less charges on parking and a number of other things . So I hope the Minister will look at it. MR . DOERN : Mr . Chairnian , there is a sizable increase here in acquisition costs.

Last year there was a $1 .5 million allocated for vehicle replacement and this year it is $2 million dollars. Can the Minister explain why there is a one-third increase in this particular item? MR . CHAIRMAN: That really comes in 3. (b) (3) . 3. (b) (l) . 3. (b) (l)- -pass ; 3. (b) (2)- -pas s; 3. (b)

(3) MR . DOERN: The same question , Mr . Chairman. We should maybe stay with the Member for Elmwood. MR . ENNS : I believed I mentioned this, either in my opening statement or earlier, that the fleet was allowed to age very seriously , as members are aware .

The decision made by the former administration in 19 76, I believe it was, to extend the mileage prior to replacement from 60,000 to 80 ,000 miles contributed to that and then our own indecision for a period of time while we examined the whole question of retention of the fleet and/or other policies relative to the fleet kept the policy decision to remain at 80 ,000 miles , to the extent that by deferring of the repl cement program last spring resulted that upwards to 41 percent of the fleet had exceeded the four-year criteria for replacement and 32 percent of the fleet were expected to exceed 80 ,000 miles.

The decision was made after a pretty serious and exh austive study that continuation of the government-owned fleet was for government purposes in the best interests , and the determination to go back to the replacement policy that was in existence prior to 19 76 : That is 60 ,000 miles and replacement takes place , or four years leave that has required a pretty hefty increase in the numbers of replacement vehicles that this appropriation covers and essentially that is what is being reflected in this $500, 000 incre ase .

I must indicate to the honourable members that it could likely be higher than that when the actual costs are in for this year , when we report to the House next year.. MR . DOERN : In short the Minister is saying that the policy on the consideration of selling the fleet and leasing the vehicles has been abandoned and that they are now back to a three-year , 60,000 mile position , which was the previous administration 's policy? MR . ENNS : Mr . Chairman , the leap is too fast , I am advised that we are now at 4 and 80 , and enforcing it.

We were beyond that in the last year already and we are moving to 3 and 60, which was the original policy, I think, that the Honourable Member for Elmwood is familiar with. We will of course be assessin g very carefully the cost implications of having a substantial portion of the fleet - 2465 -

Tuesday , 15 April, 198 0 using compact vehicles . It could be that the compact vehicle requires a diff erent replacement policy than the policy that has been in effect for a number of years. Two answer the honourable member directly about the policy with respect to the fleet , yes . There has been an acceptance of the fact that for provincial government purposes the advantages of leasing are not of the kind that make it attractive for us to change our policy. I might point out that there are diff erent reasons for this.

For instan ce , I am informed that the city of Winnipeg has just recently gone to a lease program and one of the advantages that the city of Winnipeg for ins tance doesn 't have that we have is in the area of federal tax , and so the other advantages are of course the apparent and very obvious advantages to the private sector for leasing , in terms of their capability of writing against their tax problems.

The government , as such, doesn 't have those problems so the obvious advantages which at first flush appear to be there for a leasing program in effe ct, coupled with the substantial purchasing power that the government has obviate the advantages of' leasing. The fleet by the way is currently standing at some 2,4 00 vehicles . There was a reduction of some 60, 70 vehicles during the last few years . There 's been some increase in the last year or two, the actual figures for instan ce, we had in September of 1979 , 2,4 95 vehicles.

They were made up in the following categories : 1,3 09 sedans , 12 1 wag ons , 558 vans , and 507 trucks, for a total of 2, 495 vehicles . We disposed of 55 vehicles during the year and we are now at 2, 44 0 vehicles. I am advised , Mr . Chairman , that there will be some further reductions , although small of nature . that would bring down our total by the end of this year to somewhere in the order of 2,4 10. MR . DOERN : Mr . Chairman , this question is relevant to this whole

section about telephones and post office, etc . Can we have some figures on the number of civil servants now as compared to the last couple of years? I'd like to know whether the numbers are increasing or holding , or what. MR . ENNS: In the Department of Government Services? MR . DOERN: No, in the whole Civil Service . MR . ENNS : Mr . Chairman , I have that information , although not with me .

It would be of course , I am sure , it's on the record, it has been given and information asked for and the answers supplied during the estimates of my colleague , the Minister of Labour responsible for the Civil Service . I hav en 't got the figures that I can refer to in front of me. I can give him the figures for the Department of Government Services but that would not be giving him the full • MR . DOERN : Mr . Chairman , perhaps the Minister could between now ana 8:0 0 o'c lock obtain those figures because it is quite relevant to this

section and although we will probably get through the

section , I might want to make some comment on that , if he could get us that by 8:0 0 o' clock. MR . ENNS : Mr . Chairman , I'd be more than happy to undertake to have that information for the honourable member prior to 8:0 0 o' clock tonight or at 8:0 0 o' clock tonig ht, if that's agreeable to the honourable member, that it would not necessarily hold up the line-by-line consideration of further parts of the estimates at this time . MR . CHAIRMAN: 3. (b) (3) --pas s; 3. (c) (1) --p ass ; 3. (c) (2)- -pass ; 3. (d) (l)-- pass - the Member for Elmwood. MR . DOERN : Mr . Chairman , one question there .

Again, it's a bothersome one . But can the Minister indicate how there could be a reduction in the purchasing requirements of the government? There appears to be a $2 3, 000 reduction here . I assume prices are going up and that needs are holding or increas ing . How can there be a reduction here? - 2466 -

Tuesday , 15 April , 198 0 MR . ENNS : Mr � Chairman , the department of Purchasing perhaps is a department that Government Services senior staff has directed an inordinate amount of attention to. There has been over the years , I suppose felt necessary at the time, but an overlay and overlay of paper work and the whole purchasing procedure becomes so awkward and requiring a great deal of unnecessary paper shuffling that we have made some very substantial changes in the purchasing bureau.

For instanc e, on these four or five issues alone the introduction of direct purchase order system is being implemented into Government Services effective April lst . It is our intention, if this works out reasonably well in Government Services, to expand this to other line departments and other departments will be introduced to this shortly thereafter. The departments have of course been involved in the establishment of this system all along in its development . Some of the advantages of this system are as follows: It will allow all departments to do more local purchasing .

It has been a constant complaint - I hear the complaints from northern members and I hear the complaints from rural members - that the overly centralized purchasing has fairly well dictated that most, if not all , the purchasing is done in the city of Winnipeg and particularly where items are available at competitive prices that if the Department of Highways requires them in Thompson that the department be authorized to purchase them in the local regions . It will bring uniformity to the local purchasing now taking place.

What the former Minister of Government Services and Public Works is well aware of is that , due to the cumbersomeness of the purchasing procedure , the amount of what was referred to as emergency purchasing amounted into the millions of dollars, which obviously reflected the fact that departments were blatantly expressing their frustration at the system and calling everything an emergency purchase . The auditor from time to time pointed that out to Ministers of Government Services. So this will bring uniformity to the local purchasing now taking place.

There are several local forms of local purchase orders now being used by the different departments. We had actually counted up to 23 different types of forms being used for government purchases. This has now been changed to just 2 or 3. It will bring unif orm controls to local purchasing . Each department now has its own. A limit of $250 has been set for the local purchase order. Over this amount , emergency purchase orders would still have to be used .

In other words , the reduction that is indicated, it's minute in this department but nonet heless it hasn 't grown , is brought about because of substantial changes of this nature , also the substantial introduction of automation in the process of purchasing , better inventory control. Well , I could indicate to the honourable members some aaditional benefits of the direct and local system of purchasing , but this is a new departure in the Department of Government Services . We are bringing it into effect in the Department of Government Services first .

We have hopes of introducing it to the other departments as we are satisfied it's working in our department . MR . CHAIRM AN : 3. (d) (1)- -pass ; 3. (d) (2) --p ass ; 3. (e) (1) --pas s; 3. (e) (2) --pa ss ; 3. (e) (3)- -pass ; 3. (f) - the Member for Elm wood. MR . DOERN: Mr . Chairman , I note that there is a reduction in expenditure on telephones. I wonder if the Minister can explain whether there are more civil servants on an extension phone , or just how this works. I know on some lines there's a Moun tie, but I assume we 'r e not paying for him. MR. ENNS : Mr.

Chairman, the reduction is due as a result of the removal of a Watts line from one of the buildings at Century Plaza . The department of' these two buildings will have to use DDT , Direct Dial system , and pay for it from their 1981 budgets. There were several instances where Watts privileges had been extended where expend itures that could just not be rationalized and justified were being incurrea , not so much by government employees of Government Services , but by ancillary persons that had access to, or were available to the Watts system.

I know of one particular inst ance where an immeaiate cost saving of some $6,000 was inv-olved. - 2467 -

Tuesday , 15 April , 1980 We continue to provide the Watts service in the Legislative Building , the Norquay , the Woodsworth, Archives Building , 55 Carlton Street, 270 Osborne Street, and in addit ional various locations occupied by government staff in the downtown area as well as the Fort Osborne and Dublin and St . James complexes . There has been some tightening up of the amount of telephones required. MR • CHAIRM AN: 3. (f ) (l)-- pass ; 3. (f) (2)- -p ass ; 3. (g) (l) - the Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN : Mr .

Chairman , I wonder if the Minister can give us any indication of how much money is spent by the government for these messenger services , these Zi ppers and Bisons and Pony Express , Pink Ladies. I was quite taken aback one day talking to a staunch member of the New Democratic Party, a young womdn who told me that she was calling a messenger , and I sa id, "Which one ?" and she said she was calling a Pink Person , because she couldn 't bring herself to say that it was a Pink Lady .

But I just wonder ed , do you feel that you have a handle on this sort of extra-curricular vehicle here , and also , do you know how much money is spent out of the departments or behind your back on accesssing this form of commun ication which is fairly expensive? MR . ENNS: Mr . Chairman , I'm advised that figure is not available to us in Government Services . We could provide it for our own department but these expenses are borne by the line department s, that is the Department of Health, the Department of Education . If they have occasion to use the Pink Lady they pay for her.

I must suggest to the honourable member that it would , of course, be possible for him to arrive at that figure by careful perusal of Public Accounts, where all payments made by the province of Manitoba to businesses or individuals are listed. But it is not centred within Government Services and we could not begin to give the member a figure . MR . CHAIRMAN: 3. (g) (1) --p ass ; · 3. (g) (2) --p ass ; 3. (g) (3) --p ass ; 3. (h) (1) - the Member for Elmwood. MR . DOERN : Mr.

Chairnran, my colleague from Churchill has been imported for this debate at great expense - by polar bear , I think and I want to ask the Minister about a problem that occurred several years ago and if he can enlighten us . It was discovered four years ago, or a little longer , that in the Norquay Building they were storing chemicals in the corridors . There. were experiments taking pla ce, there was a lab in the Norquay Building , I don't know if it 's still there Maybe the Minister could answer a number of questions , for instan ce, as to when the new lab will be open.

Perhaps he could start with that and tell us whether it has been opened , or when it's expected to open . MR . ENNS : Mr . Chairman , we 'r e hopeful that new facility will be in operation in the latter part of July , first weeks of August. MR . DOERN : Mr . Chairman, I would ask the Minister then , since there was a lab in the Norquay Building , and I assume still is , as far as I recall, and it was drawn to our attention at the time that there were chemicals being stored in the corridors. That was ordered to be removed immediately and Mr . McMillan saw to that in January of 1976 .

Is there still a laboratory in that office building , and are the chemicals still stored , either in the building , hopefully not in the corridors , or on top of the building? Can we get some idea of what is happening there? MR . ENNS: Mr . Chairman , some of the activity that the Member for Elmwood describes was undertaken by the Department of Natural Resources at that time which included in its respons ibilities the environmental division. I am reasonably certain , I would want to double-che ck, that none of that laboratory type work is taking place in the Norquay Build ing .

I remind all members that the stringent fire code that was passed by the previous administration in 1976 it was developed in 1975 and I believe actually passed in 1976 did have major ramifications in the things that departments of governme nt s, ano of course in the private sector as - 2468 -

Tuesday , 15 April, 1980 well, were doing . I'm not suggesting that they were cleaned up or changed overnight, just as we are still wrestling with the necessary construction work and renovation work required for a number of our own facilities, a number of our own public health buildings , etc., but certainly such immediate items such as the member refers to , chemicals being stored in the hallways of a normal office building , paint and other flammable goods being stored under stair wells and the likes of that .

I feel reasonably confident that our building managers throughout the system, throughout the various departments of government reacted to these new code requirements and that in most instances where they could be looked after, particularly of the kind that could simply be looked after by following a different procedure and a different practice, and by properly storing flammable or dangerous materials that in effect took place. But to the best of my ability there is no lab work being carried on in the Norquay Building at this time.

They are , of course , awaiting the new facilities of the new Environmental Lab to move into , but the work that is being carried on by Department of Natural Resources and/or the Environ mental Branch as in other locations more suited for that kind of work. MR . DOERN: Could the Minister just inform the committee as to which departments will be going into the new lab building? Can we have a general list? Or if it's not convenient now we 'l l take it later. MR . ENNS : Mr . Chairman, I' 11 double check with the staff and have that information later on . Essentially it will be the Department of Natural Resources .

I would assume that it will also house the Environmental Lab facilities, as well as some aspects of the Department of Health that have requirements for lab work. There could be a number of jurisdictions that have access to or that actually will be designated some space in that building but I'l l double check the information for the honourable member . MR . CHAIRMAN : The Member for Churchi ll. MR . JAY COWAN : Thank you, Mr . Chairperson .

In his opening remarks to the committee, the Minister indicated that the review of the role of the Emergency Measures Organi zation will be undertak en , or has been undertaken by his department and he has mentioned this a number of times in the House also. I wonder if the Minister could take the opportunity now to elaborate on those earlier statements and outline what some of the changes will be and in what areas , and when he would expect them to take place? MR . ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I welcome the opportunity of talking about Emergency Measures Organi zation .

It 's a subject matter that obviously will continue to be of concern and ought to be of concern to all of us as members and to the general public. Let me begin by saying that possibly one of the problems is that we have demonstrated a reasonably a good response team and mechanism and organization to look after the kind of emergencies that we , as Manitobans , have become familiar with; namely , the kind of natural problems that arise or face a community when a flood arises .

But I don't have to point out to the honourable members that again , in Manitoba , we don't have the incidence of the flash mountain flood roaring down upon us , that kind of emergency gives us a lot of time to organize . The water resources people, they predict days in advance that large portions of our province are going to be inund ated.

This enables us to contact the municipal people; it enables us to pull out of the different departments the resource people required ; the water control enginee rs , the highway engineers are put on special duty ; bridges can be checked and watched ; Departments of Health and Community Services have time to organize , to set up receiving stations for people that will have to be evacuated; supplies can be laid in, and the techniques , the knowledge of respondin g to that kind of an emergency , which are the emergencies that we are perhaps most familiar with and I include in this same general description the emergency that governments have to respond to, after the fact, kind of thing that you have in the case of a violent wind.storm, a tornado which unfortuna tely seems to be occurring more often in our province , and we are asked then to move in to restore immediately such basic utilities as hydro and - 2469 -

Tuesday , 15 April, 1980 telephones , con cern for live wires layin g on the ground , the possibility of fires , and again the system in coordination with other volunteer organizations such as the Red Cross or the Mennonite Disaster Relief Group and others , always working with municipal people . That system is essentially there and principally there because we have experienced those kind of emergenc ies several times ov er. We , however, felt immediately after the last flood that the whole system required an updating and a hard look at it.

I want to assure the honourable members , as I have assured them in the House , that this was not a matter of simply reacting to some immediate concerns of the past month but rather one that we were directed to undertake by Cabinet and by the Premier upon conclusion of the difficulties we had last spring in the flood . We are in the process of effecting some of these changes that I would like to outline to the honourable member at this time .

We are recommending that the organization , as depicted on the following chart, be considered for approval and that the proposed re-organization will have the following major ef fects. By the way , Mr . Chairman , I will be pleased to provide the honourable members opposite with the proposed chart if we have them available . We hope that the proposed structure calls for a significant change in the staffing mix of the organization with an expanded regionalized con cept .

I am not proposing any large or any specific increase in the numbers of staff man years , of which there are 14 in this organization , but we want to regionalize them in a more effective way . One of our problems is that to have the EMO operation in touch with whatever happens in all portions of the province that there be specific lines of communications open in the different rural parts of the province , in the nor th, in our major towns and cities. I am proposing a significant change in emphasis on support to municipalities.

The review calls for the establishment of two additional regional offices in eastern and northern Manitoba or, altern ately , providing these services from a central location in Win nipeg . Those are the decisions that we still making at this point , essentially to work in support with the municipalities. A much greater emphasis and concentration will be directed toward the planning and research func tions . A separate and professional training function reporting directly to the coordinator will be established.

This func tion will provide emergency training opportunities to municipal , departmental and volunteer agen cies , utilizing to the extent possible courses and facilities available through the Federal Government . There is a substantial amount of federal assistance available to us in the area of emergency training for our own departmental staff , for municipal staff , or other volunteer organizations , if we set up the appropriate mechanism that can encourage munic ipal officials to take advantage of it.

This would be short training courses , either here in Winnipeg or in some instances on-si te, or in some instances in central or in eastern Can ada . The establishment of an Advisory Committee in order to draw upon the resources of volunteer agenc ies normally associated with emergency operations is contemplated in a more formal way . This has been done informally up to now , but we wish to build that into the structure. i.e. the ones I already mentioned , the ·Red Cross , Mennonite Disaster Services , Salvation Army , etc .

I might add that we will continue to improve the 24- hour emergency information response services . That was only introduced just about a year and one-half ago that we have the 24-hour telephone response number listed. We are not at all satisfied that that number is a well-kept secret or who all knows about it. Of course, that does away with the purpose of the whole exercise. We are not suggesting that we have not been able to respond in a reasonably fast way in most instan ces . The actual detailed record of numerous incidences that have occurred indicate a substantial numbe r.

In most instances the persons do know and do contact Emergency Measures in the first instan ce. Our diff iculty is in having other agen cies , private or corporate or other governments , in following a pre-set pattern of response , the most notable ones being where other jurisdictions are involved . The case of the recent spills at MacGregor or in the case of the situation in the CPR Yards , where there is a tendency to have officials of' that company or of that corporation accept the immediate respon sibility on their own , and not recognize the possible dangers involved , and - 2470 -

Tuesday , 15 April , 1980 not immediately in the first instance calling Emergency Measures , even if they know who to call and the number and they know that that ought to be done . There is a tendency for them to attempt to look after it on their own. Of course there is always a question that in some instances a delay will take place .

If it is out in the open , out on the highway , or out on the deserted stretch of track, it is quite feasible that somebody cannot get to a phone within two or three hours or just the immediate reaction to an accident , even here in the city in the yards where railway employees or other employees are charged with the immediate problems of looking • • • You know, we have an accident , let 's access it, what their immediate reaction is to it. It is only then that they click into calling the local fire or police ambulance services .

It is in this area that I am not satisfied that the full opportunities, full services of Emergency Measures are being fully utilized , that it should not be necess ary • And surely that should be part of our fun ction , rather than have employees , company or otherwise, having to make decisions when they are under a degree of stress , being involved in the actual accident , to be able to, at the drop of the hat or immediately , know precisely who all to involve at that time. They have their hands fu ll.

There is also, and I say this somewhat advisedly , a tendency of relying too solely on the immediate experts, so-called , on the scene , because what to them is a controllable and manageable problem • • • I suggest to honourable members that they show some bias in this sense every once in a while, in the sense that because they know the properties of the chemical that they are dealin g with or the nature of the potential hazard that they are dealin g with, that is not to say and it is not good enough to say that they have a full appreciation of the concerns of the general public , of the community , the immediate workers that are involved that have to handle or be within the vicinity of the accident site.

And it is neces sary in my judgement that that judgement call for declaration of some form of emergency and calling into play the full resources of government and/or other agenc ies needs to be made by an experienced group of people that over the years aevelop an expertise in this matter, and I see that being housed in the Emergency Measures Organi zation. MR. CHAIRM AN : 3. (h) (

l) the Member for Churchill . MR . COWAN : Thank you, Mr . Chairperson . The Minister indicated there are 14 staff years in this department this year . I would ask the Minister how man y �ere in the department last year and what are the positions that the persons under this department occupy? MR . ENNS : Mr . Speaker, 197 9-80 vote called for 14 SMYs ; we are asking for the same number of SMYs in this year 's estimates .

Among the mechanical changes that we are proposing in the Emergency Measures Organi zation, and ones that we believe will make it possible for us to, in a very effective way , bring about that greater emphasis in our planning work and research work, and our work with municipal authorities is in the redeployment of staff within this 14 -man group. For instan ce , a decision has been made that it is not necess ary for the Emergency Measures Organization to operate its own warehousing and inventory , a large inventory of goods and services.

We have diff erent departments where the rubber boots or the bed sheets and the blankets and other supplies that are needed from time to time are housed in diff erent line departments. If it is a requirement for water pumps to pump out basement s, the Department of Water Resources has it. What was happening under the Emergency Measures Organization was they maintained their own inventory at the Fort Osborne Complex . They maintained clerks, and storekeepers, and clerk typists: three clerk typists, an accounting clerk, and a storekeeper .

That is four positions within that 14- man Emergency Measures Organization that did not really contribut e, in our view, in this reorganization plan , to the training and planning and research aspect of Emergency Measures. Those positions will be filled or moved into such items as training consultan ts, training assistant s, munic ipal services officers . In other words , field people that will be moving out through the municip alities , through the fields , helping with the development of local municipal plans . We would like to see each municipality have a basic emergency - 2471 -

Tuesday , 15 April , 1980 plan on the shelf that the Reeve, the Council , the Secretary-Treasu rer, the local police and the fire deparment , the volunteer fire department , are familiar with. Now it takes someboay, it takes a staff person to visit these munic ipalities and bring about and develop these plans with them. We believe that by taking away the funct ions , the clerking functions if you like, the storekeeping functions if you like, of what has occupied a good portion, two-thirds of the present staff of EMO was involved in those kind of func tions.

Another particular function that we are taking away , we had Emergency Measures processing all the invoices and the vouchers for all the goods and services that Emergency Measures Organizations authorized and purchased during an emergency . The Department of Finance has indicated that they have all the staff , they have the fac ilities, they are quite prepared to handle the financial accounting concerns that up to now kept a couple of accounting clerks busy at Emergency Measures Organization.

Again, these positions are not being lost to Emergency Measures Organization , they are going to be redeployed to be able to enable us to concentrate on the development of actual emergency plans and research and training programs that we see the EMO fundamentally moving in to. MR . COWAN: Thank you , Mr . Chairperson. I would ask the Minister if he can indicate what exact positions he anticipates during the upcoming year.

In other words, he has indicate<:\ that he would like to see some people out in the field proceeding with the development of local contingency plans , and of course that is an important area to direct his attention to. He has also mentioned that they are going to re-organize the Emergency Organization Response Centre , and I would assume that that would also incur some changes in staffing or places where staff will be in the future.

I would ask the Minister if he could C).raw for us a chart of how many people would be out in the field presenting these programs to local mun icipalities and LGDs and I would imagine also Indian Reserves , on occasion, if necess ary and also if he can indicate how many will be back in the head office, so to speak, personing the shop. MR . ENNS: Mr . Chairman , in the area that we are most interested in, the degree of work that we do with our municipal ities; we now, at the moment , under the current setup , have one senior municipal adviser and an additional municipal adviser located in Bran don .

We intend to expand that under a senior municipal services off icer to three municipal advisers , one in the western region , one in the northern region, and one in the eastern region ; each one of them staffed with an administrative secretary. So we will , in eff ect , bump up that complement from what was two, to seven, in the area of munic ipal co-oper ation , municipal planning . The precise order of the staff has not yet been determined, the plan is bef ore government for consideration at this very time.

I would hope to be in a position, within a relatively short period of days or weeks , to be able to indicate to the honourable member and members acceptance of this proposed re-organization of EMO . I am not in a position to state that at this time. I can indica te, and I'm indicating as freely as I can , the direction that we hope to go. MR . COWAN : Thank you, Mr . Chairperson.

As the Minister has indicated in his presentation , that we are indeed in the midst of changing times and that emergency situations that presented themselves to us in the past , while they have not lessened in either their total effect and impact on our society, nor in the amount in which they occur , we have had added to them a different type or emergency , part of a chemical industrial community that is rapidly overrunning most of the modern industrial society.

We saw it start to occur in the early 1930s with the petro-chemical explosion - and I use that term not in the literal sepse , p4t wnen it was discovered that many chemicals could be synthesized and invented from a petro-chemical base , and we saw from that time on chemicals begin to enter our envi ronment in large numbers to where we 'r e at the point now where we don't exactly know how many are out there , least of all what they do . There is no certain way of being able to determine how many are c.oming onstream.

I have reviewed the literature fairly comprehensively , what literature is available to us and one piece of literature tells me that there are 250 , OOO new chemicals being - 2472 -

Tuesday , 1 5 April , 198 0 synthesized or invented every year , of which 3, 000 are making their way into the industrial community ; another piece of literature says, well it's not quite a problem of that magnitude , that there's perhaps 100 ,000 , of which 400 are making their way into the industrial communi ty.

But the fact remains that they are all making their way into the industrial community without any sort of pretesting ; without any sort of anal ysis by either the compani es, or any comprehensive analysis by the companies that are producing them, or by the government which is allowing them to be produced, or by those that would be responsible for protecting the envir onment and protecting the concerns of indiv iduals such as Emergency Measures Organization.

The fact is that the only criteria that is being used presently for a new chemical, to determine whether or not that chemical will enter the market, is one of profitability. Does that chemical perform a function that another chemical might or might not perform, and does i.t do it in a more efficient and effective manner than the previous chemical , and it is marketable? In other words , can it be marketed, can it be produced for a profit? And that is, for the most part, the only signifi cant criteria.

And one only need look at the particular ins tance of vinyl chloride to see the whole process in a nutshe ll , where you have a chemical that , around the 19 30s , at the time of the petro-chemical explosion , at the time that our scientific community advanced to the point where they were able to produce large numbers of chemicals from the petro-chemical base , we see vinyl chloride being invented , or synth esized , whichever word you prefer . At that time it was considered to be a very safe chemical, entirely safe .

As a matter of fact at that time it was thought to be usable as an anae sthetic for people undergoing operations, and it was not ; for a couple of reasons , one of which was that it was not as ef ficient as the other anae sthetics that were on the market, therefore not as profitable , therefore one would not use it for that particular purpose .

But had it been more efficient , had it been more effective , had it been more profitable , we would have seen it used for that purpose, just as we saw it used as a propellant in hair spray , if you can imagine that , not that very long ago either; where you would have people in a very closed room, perhaps in a bathroom or bedroom, spraying their hair with a substance that was being propelled out and therefore escaping , called vinyl chloride , a substance which we know now to be extremely carcinogen ic.

The fact is that it wasn 't until about 20 years after the widespread introduction of this chemical into the marketplace that we determined there was a problem. How did we do that? Well , we determined there was a problem in much the same way as we determine there is a problem with other chemicals , and that is, workers, who are the front line defen ce , who are being used as guinea pigs in this area , began to get sick. Now, they began to get sick with a very specific disease called angiosarcoma of the liver, a very rare cancer that could not be attributed to many other environmental influen ces .

Had they begun to get sick with lung cancer, which they did also , but had they just contacted lung cancer , or another more common, perhaps a skin can cer , from this exposure to vinyl chloride , as a society we never would have been able to quite as rapidly pin down this substance as a known carcinogen. The fact is that we saw groupings of very rare angiosarcoma of the liver occur , and they occurred around vinyl chloride plant s.

In using cohort and epidemiological studies it was possible to isolate vinyl chloride as a substance that could be suspected of being a carcinogen ; further animal studies and further cohort studies confirmed that there were , indeed , incr,eased incidences of cancer of the liver, of the brain , of the lung , leukemia, that could be associated with worker exposure to vinyl chloride.

At the same time - not at the same time, a bit later, because that's the way the pattern usually develops - a bit later it was found that people living in the environment close to a vinyl chloride plant were also exhibiting , on a statistical basis , increased incidence of these sorts of can cer , and there were several studies done to that effe ct.

It was also found that there were a number of other diseases or maladies that could be attributed to exposure to vinyl chloride in the environment , of which was increased risk of miscarriage , increased risk of problems with pregnant women and their children which were subsequently born. So that was determined , and then we saw the standards begin to be made more strict in regard to exposure to vinyl chloride ; to where we now have it, in the States at least, and it is a legal standard in the States, to be a standard of one - 2473 -

Tuesday , 15 Ap ril , 1980 part per million for worker exposure over a time-weighted average of an eight-hour day . The reason I say all this is because I think it is pertinent background material to what happened in MacGregor, and I would like to talk about that in more detail than the next few minutes allow , but we will have an opportunity, I unders tand this evening , to talk about it. So rather than start into the details and then have to break off I would just like to continue in general comments until the hour being 4:3 0, and then we can talk in specifics after that time.

The fact is that vinyl chloride does not stand alone , neither as a known carcinogen nor as a substance that has been introduced into the workplace without testing and without proper testing , let me rephrase that, without proper testing , without comprehensive testing to be able to ensure that it is safe to workers who will be exposed and people in the envi ronment . We speak about it in terms of occurring in 193 0 , well , it is happening today.

There are substances that are being developed today that wi ll , if we can extrapolate on the past into the future , which will present health and environmental problems in the future , and the Emergency Measures Organization has to be able to respond to the emergencies that are going to occur as a result of this blossoming petro chemical industry and chemical industry .

The Emergency Measures Organization is going to have to not only develop local cont ingency plans for municipalities , and I don't mean to take away from that because I commend the Minister on that initiative; I think it is important and I hope that the one that goes up in the north goes as close to my constituency as is possible , preferably in the constituen cy , although I realize there may be considerations as to the population centres being smaller in my constituency than in others, but at least as close as is possible , because we have those sorts of problems in our own consti tuency also , as witnessed just last week.

But I would hope the Minister would go about developing some mechanism to deal, to immediately find out what hazards these chemicals represent . If I can be so bold I think it was a mistake to rely upon .Dow Chemical entirely in the MacGregor instan ce . I think the Minister will agree with my in hindsight , and I'm not saying that it was a mistake that I wouldn 't have made in similar circumstances .

I •m not trying to assess blame I' m just trying to point out that I believe that the best evidence possible available to us now indicates that we probably should have contacted some of the other emergency systems that were available to us. MR . CHAIRM AN : The hour of 4:3 0 having arrived , I am leaving the Chair for Private Members ' Hour and will return at 8:0 0 o' clock. SUPPLY - NATURAL RESOURCES MR . CHAI RMAN, Abe Kovnats (Radisson) : This Committee will come to order . I would direct the honourable members' attention to page 75 of the Main Estimates , Department of Natural Resources . Item l.(

a) Ministerial :

(1) Minist er 's Compensation--p ass . Resolution 100 - the Honourable Member for Ink ster. MR . GREEN : Mr . Speaker, just before the Minist er 's Compensation is passed , I do have a few words, Mr . Speaker, that I would like to say with regard to the proposed Flood Protection Program in Carman . Yes , Mr . Speaker, I want to really , in as serious a manner as I can , determine whether the Minister is really making the kind of blunder that I suspect he is making with respect to the entitlement of the people of the province of Manitoba to be reasonably dealt with, inso far as flood protection is concern ed.

Now I want , Mr. Speaker, to be corrected if I'n wrong . I unders tand that the Minister intends to spend $5 million in one community with regard to diverting the Boyne River, which floods periodically around that community , so that there will be no flooding in the future. I understand , Mr . Speaker , that the cost benefits of the expenditure of $5 million are in no way justified by any estimates that the Minister has before him. In saying that , Mr .

Speaker, my preliminary - and again I wish to be corrected if I am wrong - my preliminary figures indicate that it would require $750 ,000 a year in damages, every year ; every year , Mr . Speaker, to justify on a one-to-one cost benefit basis , the expenditure of $5 million in the community of Carman. - 2474 -

Tuesday , 15 April , 1980 Now if there is something that I am overlooking, Mr . Speaker, in that I don't wish to have included in a suggestion that I am overlooking something , that there is a desire , a strong desire on the part of the people of Brandon to be protected ; that there is inconvenienc e, and has been inconvenience in that community , other than that which I am aware of , and which everybody would sympathize with, Mr .

Chairman ; and I'm going to get to .other communities before I leave this one to see how one community in Man itoba is being dealt with as against diff erent commun ities, then I would like the Minister to correct me, to indicate that my assess ment is not correct. But when I was the Minister we looked at the situation , asked the engineers , Mr . Chairman , to bring in their views with regard to the amount of damages that are being caused and the amount of moneys that would be needed to overcome these damages; and the cost bene fits were comp.letely unrelated to each other.

Now, if the Minister says those are out-of-da te, then I would like to know what is in date and would he table , Mr . Chairman - because it is important; we 'r e talking about an expenditures of $5 million for a commun ity of roughly 3, 000 people - will he com municate to the House or put on the table the engineering estimates which show the cost benefits to be achievea from the expenditure of $5 million, in one com mun ity? We spent on drainage , Mr . Chairman , approximately $5 million in mainten ance of drainage and constructing new drains throughout the province.

Let 's raise it to $7 million , which would mean something between $1 .8 million and $2 million in each community . Where is the justification for the expenditure of $5 million in one community? I'd like the Minister to produce the cost- benefit studies on which he is asking all of the people of Man itoba to get together , dip into their pockets, and pay money to Carman, to that town. Because , Mr .

Chairman , if we are to do that, and it's not merely Carman that is involved , then I say that we should not treat those citizens differently and we should calculate how much this is going to cost us , because there are other communities , Mr . Chairman , that have had worse problems than Carman.

The Member for Springfield should be on his feet screaming about the fact that his constituents had a roaa block and said that they wouldn 't pay taxes because the province refused to provide a flood protection works into the Red River Floodway and then into the Red River, at a cost of less than $5 million , and affecting more people , Mr . Chairman . And I' m going to go through other communities, because I know them, on which the government has not been prepared to spend $5 million , or anything like that amount. And therefore, on the assum ption , Mr .

Chairman , that the Minister is not being nearly as erratic as I seem to think he is, I would like to have , from his department, the cost-benefit studies which show that if there is no diversion of the Boyne River that there's going to be $750 ,000 a year , every year , in damages, to thaG community. I assume that the Minister has those figures with him. MR . CHAIRM AN : The Honourable Mini ster. HON . BRIAN RANSOM (Souris-Kil larney ): Mr .

Chairman , I don't have those figures that the member refers to, but I can provide him with some background on the nature of the approach to that problem and others that other communities in the province are experiencing , have been experiencing in the past. I think the estimated cost of $5 million is reasonably accurate . I think it's somewhat less , but in that neighbourhood, and I suppose given the nature of cost est imates any thing could happen there.

The cost benefits in the past have been calculated on the historical record, going back as far as records have been kept, and that has been an arbitrary sort of decision , to use that time period for calculating costs and ben efits. I think that there is a serious weakness in that system that is now becoming evident , and that weakness is that it assumes that over the period of record keeping that the con ditions , circumstances surrounding climate and land use , have remained the same over the period during which records have been kept. Mr .

Chairman , that clearly is not so, because the circumstances that prevailed in the Red River Valley and in other parts of the province were not the same today as they were in 1880 , they'r e not the same as they were in 1900 , or 1920 , or 193 0 , in fact what makes more sense to my way of thinking , at least, and I think to a great many other people, is that the period of time that we must use now has to be a period of time that's based on - 2475 -

Tuesday , 15 April , 1980 the more recent experien ce. Probably the period of time that is associated with what we might call the modern agricultural period, the period of land use that's associated with those modern practices , the period of time over the past 30 years , perhaps , and that when that period of time is used to calculate the cost ben efits , then of course it changes the benefit ration , as does every year of experience that accumulates .

If there is a flood in any given year then of course that changes the cumulative frequen cy , or if there is no flood then that changes the cumulative frequen cy . In the case of Carman there was a long period of time , I think from 1923 through to 196 9 , during which there was no flooding took place, and then from the period of 196 9 to 1979 , there were three serious floods in that period of time, and a fourth which threatened and which the town and the province took action to meet, and which then at the last minute did not materialize .

The chan ces , the probability of that having occurred, given the historical record, is extremely remote, extremely remote, Mr . Chairman , which indicates that the historical record simply doesn 't indicate what is taking place now . The honourable member doesn 't want to accept that, he wants to say that conditions are the same today as they were in 1900 , or 192 0 , that's fine , he can argue that position if he wishes . I' m telling him what's the basis of the calculation that we 'r e using now.

And using the shorter period of time, and I' m not exactly sure , I think it's from 1956 that it was calculated but I would have to check the details of that, then the cost benefit works out to approximately • 7. That still , .of course , is not 1, and so the honourable member wants to argue that that 's not a good investme nt . Well, there are other things that we no longer calcula te, or I guess we never did calculate cost benefits for, Mr .

Chairman , things like roads and hospitals; we aon't calculate what benefits are from those services related to the cost, we think that it is now appropriate to try and deal with the many communities who have flooding problems on a somewhat similar bas is, but not entire .

Because we still plan to use the cost-benefit ratio in determining what the cost- sharing of these projects will be and the formula that we are proposing, an<l which we have agreement with the communities involved , then we will go to the federal government with the formula and attempt to get cost- sharing on that basis ; and that is pro posed that the federal and the provincial government would pay on an equal basis for that portion of the project which is covered by a benefit return and that the difference between the bene

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-4-37a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 4th hansardpdf 37a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	71b167d43b4fda08768f4ee38d23576a617cc3fa

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