Manitoba Hansard — 2 May 1978 (Sitting 33B, 31st Legislature, 2nd Session)

31-2-33b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

' Time: 8:00 p.m. THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, May 2, 1978 SUPPLY - PUBLIC WORKS MR. CHAIRMAN: Gentlemen , we have a quorum present. Before the supper break the Member for St. Vital was recognized . I'm sure he did not complete his questioning and his thoughts . The Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Thank you , Mr. Chairman . I wanted to ask a few questions on some problems with different departments that have bee~ giving our members some trouble with these Estimates .

And they were in two particular areas, one of wh1ch arose as a result of some remarks by the Minister of Finance , which were unsubstantiated , and we have been asking the same questions on every department to try to get some substantiation for these remarks. This Minister, when he introduced the Estimates of the Department of Highways , was very frank with me, Mr. Chairman . I'm wondering if he is going to be just as frank again. I'd like to ask him what was the total amount of the preliminary Estimates , when they were first presented to him . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Public Works. '4-R. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman , alii can say is that I was in fact humiliated by rece iving considerably less than was nitially asked fo r. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman , I don 't know whether the Minister is going to explain to me, again, that the consideration of the Estimates before they are presented to the House consists of a certain amount of cutting here and there . But I would like to ask him just for a couple of specific figures. If he can give me what the amount of th,e first preliminary Estimates were that were presented to him, I should be obliged. MR. E: 4S: Well , Mr.

Chairman , I believe what the honourable member is asking for is not appropnate . I also believe that the members of the opposition can't have it both ways. I can't recall which specific member of the opposition made a point of chastising the now government for taking some of those preliminary first run , first flush , you know , Estimates of departmental spending and using them as in fact anticipated or actual spending that would have been carried on by the former administration should they have been in the position to make that final determination . I can recall , and I think it was the Member for St.

Johns , that said that it was highly unfair and highly improper to suggest that simply because the first go-around of departmental requests represented in any way the then government's planned spending program as being realistic and to having based on those figures any reductions that the now government in effect has taken place , as being totally unreliable and unrealistic . I would have to say that that kind of information- the Honourable Member sitting beside me from Elmwood would appreciate this perhaps more than the Member for St.

Vital- is that when the first run go-around on the business of establishing a set of Estimates for a department are to take place, you go out for the ballpark . I haven't got the figures that the honourable member is asking about and , secondly , I don't think they are relevant to the problem that is in front of the committee today. I am asking this committee to consider the Estimates that are printed in this book . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Thank you , Mr. Chairman .

I would agree with the Minister that the figures that I have asked for would be irrelevant under most ordinary circumstances . The story that he has just related to the committee about remarks having to do with the first draft and how much they have been reduced were just the remarks that were referred to by his colleague , the Minister of Finance.

It is only because of those remarks and because of the impression that was given that we on the opposition side are asking for something to substantiate them , something to back them up and to show that the Minister of Finance was simply not indulging in exaggeration or wild speculation , or was indebted to his imagination for these remarks . And that's the reason for it. Had they not been brought up by the Minister of Finance, we would not in fact be asking for them .

But if the Minister feels a little sensitive about it, or a bit embarrassed to tell us what it was, perhaps he can " tell us what the amount of the Estimates was that he recommended to Cabinet for their approval. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I can go back to the experience that I have had during the years 1966-69 as a member of the Treasury Bench , and again I think the Honourable Member for Elmwood can inform the Honourable Member for St. Vital that Cabinet Ministers or his department seldom get all the money they ask for in the first flush , in the first go-around of Estimates. MR. WALDING: Thank you , Mr.

Chairman. I am sure the Minister is right that he didn't get all that he asked for in the first place . I suppose that when we ask him for that figure that he recommended to 1623 M i

Tuesday, May 2, 1978 Cabinet that we are really asking what sort of a job Cabinet did to his proposals and how sharp was the axe in choppin9 back some of those programs , whether the axe fell just as severely in this department as it did in some other department, or whether in fact that there was money added in this case, as there was at least one other department. .. So let me just try the Minister , again, Mr. Chairman, one final time to see if I can flush him out and see if he will give me those figures.

Can he tell me, and then I will move on to something else if he can tell me what those preliminary figures were and how much he recommended to Cabinet. MR. ENNS: The Printed Estimates that are before this committee measure my success or failure with respect to getting my fair share of the pie for the Department of Public Works . MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, that has sort of a final ring to it, so I will move on to another matter .

And it's one that has given members on this side a particular difficulty in other departments, and that was trying to follow through this Reconciliation Statement and to see whether this amount of $53.9 million was in fact the total amount that was spent and was the total capital spent from last year, etc. , etc . MR. ENNS: That was the total amount spent last year . MR. WALDING: Can the Minister tell us whether the $27.011 million of

Schedule B capital was spent last year? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I want to be cautious in answering that question . It's a question that has been raised I believe legitimately by the members of the opposition .

It has to do, again, in this particular department where carry-over amounts and revolving funds are concerned, I have been told that with the return of the Minister of Finance that an overall reconciliat ion of the very questions that have been bothering members opposite in their questioning of the Minister of Agriculture , of the Minister of Highways and now the Minister of Public Works- and indeed I haven't been a member of the other committees, but no doubt the same questioning has taken place there- but that that kind of an overview of expenditures and transfers of moneys from previous voted authority and of unlapsed capital authority ,- and I think the Honourable Member for St.

Vital will appreciate that it's not fair to ask the officials of the Department of Publ ic Works to be able to come up with a finite answer on these questions- that that kind of information will be forthcoming very short ly to all members of the House , from the Department of Finance . Further to that, I should say that you are asking finite questions as to what was the actual dollars spent by the Department of Public Works last year . Well , that isn't determined until we have it done to a point where we feel confident enough that we can put it into an annual report.

That's why I ask the honourable member to defer those questions to what I consider to be, and what we have suggested to be, the appropriate source for those answers . MR. CHAIR MAN: I might suggest to members of the committee that I would be, as Chairman , of the opinion that capital expenditures of this department would be under Item 6., the last formal item within this set of Es.timates, and if we were to have an exhaustive study of capital spent and capital being proposed to be spent, I think that's the item and the appropriate place that it should be discussed . And as I said privately to the Member for St.

Vital and some of the others, I would like to think that we could stick item-to-item with this particular set of Estimates . The Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Yes, Mr. Chairman , you're probably right about that, but the questions do tend to go a little bit further than the actual capital spent itself . It involves, you know, carry-over into the last fiscal year and carry -over into this one as well.

The Minister , I'm sure appreciates the problems that the opposition is having in waiting for the Minister of Finance to bring forward his Estimates that once we've got that information, then this department and many other departments will have gone and if we wish to come back to it to ask further more detailed questions then the opportunity has gone . I'm a little surprised also that the Minister claims ignorance on these sorts of facts which I would have thought that he would have been interested in as the Minister responsible for the department.

He says that maybe his officials cannot be expected to know this but surely they are now in a position , now that the Minist •er of Finance is back , to clarify just exactly what that position is and be able to ask those questions . And indeed the Minister himself would be able to ask his colleague those questions if for no other reason that the Minister himself should appea r knowledgeable before the Committee and not have to claim ignorance on the topic and put it off onto the shoulders of his colleagues. Let me make a suggestion to the Minister then, Mr.

Chairman , since you have suggested that we deal with the matter towards the end . Would the Minister consider consulting with his colleague , the Minister of Finance, since these questions have come up in the past and have taken up a great deal of time of the Committee and the Minister as well , so that he will become knowledgeable bythetimewe reach that part of his Estimates and will be able to give those facts to the Committee with a good deal of authority and background . Could we get that commitme nt from the Minister? MR. CHAIRMA N: The Minister of Public Works . MR. ENNS : Mr.

Chairman , as the speaker is prone to say, I will take that question under advisement. 1624

Tuesday, May 2, 1978 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood is next , Transcona and then Lac du Bonnet. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman , a couple of questions I'd like the Minister to answer . Maybe he could do them one at a time . He was talking about Fire Commissioner reports and the actions of the government in this new program , or beefed up program that he's overseeing and I asked him spec ifi cally about a report on the old central provincial garage . Could he ind icate whether he has seen that report , what was contained in that report and whether he would release that report to us? MR.

CHAIRMAN : Well , I might ment ion to the members of the Committee that earl ier the Minister was asked a sim ilar question from the Honou rable Member for Elmwood and the Minister asked if that could be asked under 3.(

b) and I'm quite sure that the Minister is going to give him a similar answer again this time . He is hoping , as I am, that we will go item by item.! know that the member for Elmwood and St. Vital , the two who have participated in debate so far , are perhaps trying to respond to the Min ister's opening statement and there is u faic amount of leeway in trying to respond to a Ministe r's opening statemen t, but I qould just ask membe rs if they would do their very best to stick to the items as closely as possible. MR. DOERN: Well , Mr.

Chairman , I would ask the Minister whether he would nevertheless respond to that. Does he have th is report and would he release it to us? MR. ENNS: Mr. Cha irman , I'll respond whe n the appropriate item is under consideration. MR. DOERN: Well , Mr. Chair man , another point or two . Following my colleague the Minister indicated very interestingly that he had added to the Budget of the Departme nt of Public Works , that when he received the Budget from staff he added to it.

We obviously don 't know what he added to, but could he indicate whether he made additions to both Capital and Current or did he just , for example, make add iti ons to one of those two . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , requests for the spending within the Department of Public Works combi ne the two matters together whether they are classified by Finance as being of Capital nature or not do not hold up in these set of Estimates . These are combined Capital Current requests, the total being for some $53,901 ,100 in this calenda r year. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood. MR.

DO ERN: Okay , then I would ask the Minister these questions which I gave notice of earlier, that I would like his staff to provide him with , in each line . First of all , does he have the actual expenditures under (b)(1) for last year? Voted was 692; does he have the actual expenditure? • MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , the forme r Minister of Public Works is aware that up until the books are finally closed off , that figure cannot be given . MR. DOERN: Well , they have been closed off . MR. ENNS: But my staff , and his former staff , is not in a position to give the Minister that answer . MR.

DOERN: Can the Minister indicate under (b)

(1) Salaries, there 's a reduction of some $69,000.00. Can he indicate what changes there were in staff , for example? MR. ENNS: Well , Mr. Chairman , in this particular appropriation , there was deleted from the appropriation that was voted in the previous year, some $9,500 from the Minister's offices of Executive Assistant I. Provision for the general salary decrease is that there has been no provision made for the Deputy Minister 's office and the Systems Contract renewals in this particular vote. MR. DOERN: And how many positions is that altogether? MR.

ENNS: This provides for position of 49 SMY's under (b)(1 ), as compared to the-well, the only principal decrease there is the Minister's salary and the Deputy Minister's salary and the associated office staff . MR. DOERN: So how many SMY's this year and how many last year? Mr. Chairman , the Minister said that it was a deletion of the Minister 's salary . I guess he meant the Deputy Minister 's salary. MR. ENNS: Both. MR. DOERN: Well, the Minister's salary comes under (a). MR.

CHAIRMAN: But I think his answer to the Member for Elmwood was the deletion of the Deputy Minister and related staff that goes with such an office . MR. DOERN: I intend to ask this question as we go along in the various, you know, under (b) , (c), 1625

Tuesday, May 2, 1978 (d), etc. etc . etc., so if the staff can provide this as to how many SMY's this year, how many last year . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, what in effect has happened and that correlates to the remarks that I made during my opening statement that in many instances the Department has maintained the SMY positions . This is going to be the difficulty that I and the Honourable Member for Elmwood are going to get into in this approach or in his approach to these Estimates .

There has been no change in the SMY ' positions allocated to this appropriation, but there has been a deletion equivalent to five persons in terms of salary , or provision for salary for these positions . So, this $68,400 reduction reflects that fact, that while the SMY positions remain open or in place , no provision in these Estimates are being made for five positions . MR. DOERN: Well , I am not sure that I'm following the Minister there . There were 49 SMY's now and there were 55 last year? MR. ENNS: TherE! were 491ast year and there are 49 th is year ....

But there are no salaries attached to five positions . MR. DOERN: But there is $70,000 less in the appropriat ion . MR. ENNS: That's right. That represents no salary provision for five SMY positions . MR. DOERN: Well, if you don 't have the money you don 't have the positions. MR. ENNS: No, IVIr. Chairman , that's not quite right. Having argued successfully or having just ified the rational for an SMY position, the department feels that's an appropr iate position to take during a period of where some , in this case, very obvious non-requirement of the fu lfilling of those posi tions is there . (

a) I have a Deputy Minister. I am not maintaining two offices . I am not maintaining or receiving two cheques or two salaries either, and that in effect the functions that were carried out by the five SMY positions for which salaries has not been provided for under this vote, is not being contemplated to be necessary or required during this fiscal year for which these Estimates are there. In other words, the restraint program starts at the top , right with the Minister's and the Deputy Minister's office , it doesn't just start at the bottom up. MR.

DOERN: WHII, then I have to point out to the Minister that he apparent ly doesn't read very well , because in the ne>ct line the expenditures are up and those are the non-salaried expenditures. MR. ENNS: I suppose I could indicate to the honourable members that that is the natural reflection of the higher cost of doing most things whether it involves a phone bill , whether it involves postage , whether it involves the purchase of office stationery, or indeed whether it involves the storage of paintings . MR. DOERN: Well , Mr.

Chairman , in other words, the Minister is saying that he is retaining the positions , but therE! are five vacancies . this year compared to last. I will pass to one of my colleagues . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Transcona . MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Chairman , I wouid like to comment on the Minister's explanation as to why he couldn 't provide to us the estimates which he received from his department , before going on to Management Committee and Cabinet for their decision on this.

He indicated that he had been a Minister from 1966 to 1969 and he has tried to indicate to us that this is a normal procedure not to disclose this, that this is a normal procedure in any estimates process for departments to come forward and ask for in a sense the ideal progra m and it's up to the Minist er and it's up to the Management Committee and it's up to Cabinet to try and tailor to the cloth to fit the revenue in a sense.

And I can a9ree with him and I think he sounded mark edly like the former Minister of Finance , the Member for Seven Oaks, when the Member for Seven Oaks made those comments in relation to the rather misleading statements that were made by his Minister of Finance , the Member for Riel.

And I could excuse the Member for Riel, if the Member for Riel had been a newcomer to the House , but he had been a member himself , he had been a member of the Treasury Branch from 1966 to 1969 and that means that his statements in introducing these estimates- or perhaps from 1967 to 1969.49- 01 His statem1ents were quite calculated when he introduced these estimates and they had an effect of giving people the impression that there were something like a $400 or $500 million overrun in this fiscal year that we're in right now which was a legacy of the New Democratic Party administration.

And the First Minister who also had had some experience in the House prior to 1969, didn 't correct the FinancH Minister . Now I can perhaps appreciate that the First Minister has a bad memory and perhaps didn 't remember that the proper procedure is one that was followed , probably on the advice of staff, by his -(Interjection) - I think this is Public Works . If the member wants to ask some questions I'll yield to him because undoubtedly he'll have some very important questions to ask . .. 1626 .. •

Tuesday, May 2, 1978 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Transcona has the floor. MR. PASIUK: Fine, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I haven't heard the Minister of Highways correct his Minister of Finance . He's told us that we shouldn 't be asking questions about what the departmental proposals were and we shouldn't even be implying anything with respect to departmental proposals.

So if he's going to tell us that, I would hope that he would also tell his Minister of Finance that because it was the Minister of Finance who originally raised this issue and I must say that it's probably the most deceptive comment that had been made in the House since this new Legislature started.

And I say that it wasn't unintentional and it was calculated and it was made by the Minister of Finance and if the Minister of Highways at any time wants to correct the Minister of Finance as he has tried to correct us, we would certainly welcome that because I think that the Minister of Finance certainly needs some correction when he puts forward statements that he can't prove and that when we try to prove or disprove them, the verac ity of those statements his fellow colleague Minister's refuse to provide the information because of course they know that they couldn't prove the Minister of Finance's statements.

Turning to capital, and these are the Capital questions that were raised by my colleague, and I think in a general sense they are valid at this stage . My colleague, the Member for St.

Vital , said, "Look , you know , rather than have us try and ferret out these possible Capital carryovers or other items regarding Capital , may in fact be misleading , they may in fact be honest mistakes or areas of honest disagreement ," and I think the First Minister used those precise words , honest areas of disagreement, "rather than have us try and ferret out those right now , we are giv ing the Minister an opportunity of coming clean and telling us what they are." I think that the Member for Seven Oaks, when this was being discussed in the Agriculture Department's Estimates , had asked the First Minister , who had all of the Finance staff here at that time- in fact I thought we weren 't discussing the Department of Agriculture's Estimates, I thought we were discussing the Minister of Finance's Estimates for a while- because we had all the Finance staff here, and the Member for Seven Oaks asked the First Minister to again come clean, lay it all out on the table, and then we can get on with some other bus iness regarding Estimates, because we really wouldn't like to let anything slip by.

I think that's a very real concern on the part of the opposition in the Legislature when reviewing Estimates. So my colleague, the Member for St. Vital, has asked you specifically if you have anything to comment on this and you say you don 't, you are hoping that the Minister of Finance may in fact produce something . You haven't given any commitment as to when he'll do it. I'd like to ask some specific questions in this respect. Since the Minister of Finance has been back in Manitoba for a few days now, has Cabinet met to consider this item of confusion over capital items in the Estimates?

Has Cabinet had an opportunity in the last four or five days to meet and discuss this item with staff? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Public Works . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I am prepared to answer questions that are germane to the Estimates before us. I am not prepared to engage in a discussion that has been repeated ad nauseam with every Committee or Minister before this Committee and I would ask once again, Mr. Chairman, that we address ourselves to the Estimates that are before us. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Transcona . MR. PARASIUK: Mr.

Chairman, in this respect, I think the Minister of Highways has admitted to us that he is not in a position to really discuss his Estimates fully because he doesn 't know some aspects of them and that he requires somebody else to fill the bill , perhaps . MR. ENNS: That's not all the point. MR. PASIUK: I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman , I have the floor, I have the floor, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please, order please. MR. PASIUK: Would you correct the Minister of Highways who doesn't seem to know the protocol. MR.

CHAIRMAN: I might tell the Member for Transcona , I'm not sure whether he was present or not, but I personally as Chairman feel that financial matters as to Capital should be brought up under Item 6 on the next page, Page 72, Acquisition , Construction of Physical Assets in the Estimates , that's where I think those discussions should take place , or on the Ministers ' Salary. We have agreed , Members of this Committee that were present earlier , that we will go back to 1.(

a) even though there isn't a dollar figure in there, but we will go back to 1.(

a) and treat it as if there was a Ministers' Salary and conclude on that item. That's an arrangement we worked with the Member for Elmwood and what we are on is really 1.(b)

(1) Salaries of Administration, and when we get through that item, we'll go to the other expenditures. Will the Member for Transcona try and stick to the items? The Member for Lac du Bonnet. 1627

Tuesday, May 2, 1978 MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. If you read the heading General Administration as it's described , it deals with policy and program development and if you are dealing with policy I believe that's insepar able from the points that you would be dealing with in the Minister's Salary in any event. You're dHaling with general policy of the department, so it really opens it up pretty wide if you're talking policy. MR. CHAIRMAN: I would agree that the word General Administration is a very broad term but we are on a specific ite:m that falls under that major heading, that is Administration 1. We have agreed that we will go back to 1.(

a) which is the Minister's Compensation, and I think that is the area that we can get into a discussion on any matter pertaining to the Minister or of his deparzment. MR. PARASIUK: l\llr. Chairman, in this respect, it also says the General Administration deals with central accounting , budgetary and financial services and we are discussing budgetary aspects of this particular set of Estimates . MR. CHAIRMAN: I feel , as Chairman of this Committee, that the policy is related to 1.(

a) and the Program Develop ment is (b), (

c) and (

d) and the numbers that are associated with those three letters. I would ask the me:mbers if they would try to follow that manner of conducting the business . MR. PARASIUK: In 1.(

b) then , is this the administration that briefs the Minister on the financial aspects of these E::;timates? ~ MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , that could be taken for granted . MR. PARASIUK: That's true . Then does the Minister feel that he has sufficient staff within his - department at present here to adequately present the Estimates to this Committee? Does he feel he has been adequately briefed by the staff in this Administration column to present the Estimates to this Committee? MR.

ENNS: I have no problem with presenting the Estimates as they are printed and laid down before you for co sideration by this Committee . MR. PARASIUK: But you have indicated that there are certain sections of the Estimates that you cannot really pres13nt to us unless you have Finance officials here, unless you have the Minister of Finance here explaining them. MR. ENNS: No, they are not before us. MR.

PARASIUK: Right, but you are also saying that we really can't get into certain aspects of the - Estimates unless we have those other people here, and yet you have the power to call the Minister of Finance here to assist you ; you have the power to cal l staff from the Department of Finance to assist you and that is certainly part of the legislative process . You have that power; you have the power to call a colleague.

I don 't know whether in fact the Minister of Agriculture called on the First Minister to come and assist him in presenting the Estimates when we were discussing the Agriculture Department's Estimates . I don 't know whether in fact it was the Minister of Agriculture who called in the Finance Depar1ment officials . -(Interjections)- Who was the one who called him in? I don't know whether it was Finance officials. MR.CHAIRMAN: I can answer to the Member for Transcona .

In the Department of Agriculture where we should ave been discussing Capital was in Item 11, Acquisition/Construction of Physical Assets- that is the item that the members who were present at that time that those Estimates were being debated constantly referred to . I, as Chairman at the time, was in error; I should have stopped the conversation and waited until we got to that point, but I didn 't. What I am trying to do now is to, under these Estimates , go point by point and discuss the Capital when we get over to the next page to Item 6.

If the Minister of Publ ic Works at that time chooses to bring the Minister of Finance along, or the First Minister , that is his business. That's where I think we should get into that item. MR. PARASIUK: I think, Mr. Chairman, it is fair to ask him at this stage whether in fact he would undertake to have the Min ister of Finance here and to have the Finance officials here if in fact he feels that his staff do not have sufficient information to brief him and ask answer questions that we ask him regarding Capital items , when that item comes up. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Public Works . MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, as Minister responsible for Public Works, I am asking this committee to gL~e ~authority to spend $53,901,100.00. If honourable members in this committee want to find out where and how I uet that money, then I don't think it is unreasonable to ask those questions to the Department of Finance, which is the department and is the authority that raises the money, whether in loan capital , capital authority - you name it- and I simply refuse to indulge in what has been obviously a past ime by Members of the Opposition. But let me make it very clear what the purpose of 1628

., Tuesday, May 2, 1978 this committee is for: I am asking authority to spend for necessary Public Works functions, $53 million and some dollars . I am prepared and staff is prepared to explain to the committee to the best of our ability how we intend to spend those $53 million . That is what the process is all about that is in front of us and I refuse to be drawn into the red herring that honourable members opposite are trying to bring into the discussions at the Committee stage at this time . MR. CHAIRMAN: Just before the Member forTranscona carries on , the Member for Lac du Bonnett on a point of privilege.

MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , I am sure the Minister of Public Works doesn 'twantto hide the fact that there may be spending authority already voted in previous years that he may intend to spend this year . If that is the case, then I think it is to his advantage as well as our advantage to say so initially so that we don't have to go through this fact-finding mission each step through the consideration of the Estimates. lfthere are sums of money voted in previous years, unused , that will be spent in addition to the printed Estimates , that is all that we want to know . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Public Works .

MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I can then again only appeal to you , Sir , as Chairman of the Committee , that the appropriate time to discuss that particular aspect is on Item 6 of the Estimates . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Transcona . MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Chairman , I wasn't even raising it now . Alii asked the Minister, who then went off on a red herring himself , was if at that time he would undertake now to provide the Minister of Finance at that time , have him presnt , have the staff of the Department of Finance present at that time with the information.

But he has indicated to us that he really isn't in a position to answer our questions on Capital items and I was pointing out to him that he has access to the Minister of Finance ; he has better access than we as a committee have right now . He has better access to the staff of the DeparZment of Finance than we as a committee have right now . He can see them tonight after the meeting ; he can see them tomorrow morning ; he can see them tomorrow afternoon. I can't see them . I can only see them if the Minister brings them forward here and has them do some analysis .

So all I was asking the Minister is if he would undertake to be in a position to answer the questions when we come to them because he has served notice to us tonight that he is not in a position to answer those questions. That is all that we are asking . I think it is pertinent , Mr. Chairman , because it may turn out that it is not $53,901 ,100 that is being spent ; it could be $60 million . We have given the Minister an opportunity to tell us whether in fact $53,901 ,100 is all that will be spent.

Right now he has said that is all that will be spent and it may turn .- out during the course of the Estimates that there will be more that is spent. I would like to make sure that the Minister doesn 't put himself in the embarrassing position of misleading us. MR. CHAIRMAN: To the Member for Transcona , I have asked on a number of occasions that we discuss the Capital under Item 6 and the Minister has said that he would be quite prepared to discuss Capital financing under Item 6. The Member for Transcona. MR. PARASIUK: Alii was asking was an undertaking and the Minister hasn't provided it.

I think it is fair at this time to ask for that undertaking when we are discussing Administration because the administration are the people under 1.(

b) who advise the Minister on budgetary aspects of the department. So since he has told us that that staff- and I think the staff is qualified- isn't in a position to talk to us about the financial aspects , of the way in which the Minister, the Department of Finance staff and the First Minister ultimately put the books together for presentation to the Legislature . I think it is fair to ask the question whether in fact we will have the correct information from those three entities or whether he will have the Minister of Finance and the Department of Finance people here when we come to that item . MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Public Works . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I can 't recall whether the honourable member was present when I made the opening remarks on this very subject , and that is simply that I believe that information will be in the hands of all Honourable Members of the Assembly when the Minister of Finance deals with this very question . MR. PARASIUK: Mr.

Chairman, the difficulty there is that that could be two weeks from now, it could be three weeks from now , and we will be past all these items in the Department of Public Works and that is something that I think is fair for us, in going over the Estimates , to ask whether in fact that will happen by tomorrow so that maybe we wouldn 't try - conceivably we could try to stall the Estimates in order to be certain that we will get the information in sufficient time to have it at our disposal when we discuss Item No. 6. MR. CHAIRMAN: To the Member for Transcona, I don 't believe you were present when we opened 1629

Tuesday, May 2, 1978 this committee tonight. I do believe the Minister of Public Works at that time said that within the next day or two the Minister of Finance would be making a statement to the Legislature in regard to all capital financing an1j carryover. So we are of the opinion that we will not be down to Item 6 prior to him making such a statement. MR.

PARASIUK: I'll move on to the whole question of whether in fact the administration and the Minister, because it is the senior administration which advises the Minister , whether the Minister and the senior administration have had a chance to review the recommendat ions of the Task Force pertaining to Public Works? MR. ENNS: The answer, Mr. Chairman , is no. MR. PARASIUK: Have you had an opportunity to read it yet? MR. ENNS: Well , Mr.

Chairman , I can't speak for all members of senior staff within the Department of Public Works, but I imagine the subject matter may have been of some interest to them, as indeed they weie to me, and might well have read them. MR. PARASIUK: Okay. Since you haven't in fact dealt with them , could you indicate whether in fact by coincidence your Estimates reflect an acceptance of any of these recommendations in your Estimates .

Can you tell us at this particular stage, or do we then start trying to read through all the recommendations and say well , tell me when I should ask the question as to what is the appropriate sub item to have th is one raised under. MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman , I'm prompted to try to remember the line that always used to - intrigue me, when I, as a youngster, went to a movie , and there was always that line at the opening credits, or at the end of the credits, that says, "Any representation of characters or events that bear no relationship are pun~ly coincidental" , of some such sort .

If the honourable member is suggesting that there is some relationship between the Estimates as presented before you and those specific recommendations of the Task Force , I would have to say at this point they are purely coincidental. MR. PARASIUK: They are completely coincidental then? That means if there is some similarity between the recommendations of this Task Force regard ing the size of the car fleet, and your particular position in Estimates regarding the size of the car fleet, that is completely coincidental. (Interjection)- Fair enough .

I'm obviously go in~ to accept the statement of the Minister from time to time and if he says it is in that manner then I will JUSt place it on record that he certainly hasn't placed any credence in this Task Force as yet even though it's been out for about a month . Therefore he is not in the position to say whether in fact he has accepted or rejected any of these yet, or whether in fact any of them are being held pending some further analysis .

So to all intents and purposes then he ! is saying that this report of the Government Task Force on Organization and Economy really wasn't taken into account by his department in formulating the Estimates, even though the Minister responsible for this Task Force has indicated that they were doing such valuable work that they in fact brought forwa rd a number of the recommendations to Cabinet, for Cabinet consideration, during the Estimat ,es process and that some of them were in fact accepted by Cabinet in the Estimates process and are reflected in the Estimates .

Those are statements that the Minister responsible for the Task Force said. Those are statements that the First Minister said as well. But the Minister of Public Works is saying that as far as the Department of Public Works was concerned, none of the work of the Ta.sk Force had any bearing on the Estimates that he is presenting to us today. And I accept that. MR. ENNS: Well, Mr.

Chairman, the difficulty that the Honourable Member for Transcona represents is that , and I don't say this by means of criticism to the honourable member, because I recognize that when running two committees that it's not possible for all members to be present at all times . We have different interests and from time to time , individual members will make it a point of being at the other committee , but I would ask him to read the Hansard of my remarks prior to the supper hour adjournment on this particular matter .

Well , accepting the fact that we in the Department of Public Works have had the opportunity or the time to take some of the recommendations or all the recommendations of the Task Force into cons ideration of these Estimates , that was not possible, because these Estimates were prepared prior to the compilation of the Task Force report.

Secondly , I did acknowledge to the committee this afternoon that some of the recommendations of the Task Force which indeed suggeststhe possible expansion of the role of the Department of Public Works to indeed becoming the service department of governme nt, including some services not now within the jurisdiction of the Department of Public Works , may well be considered as serious recommendations to be considered by the government when we address ourselves to those matters .

I am making these comments and repeating myself simply because while I don 't hold the member responsible for no having heard those remarks this afternoon, I can't leave on the record the implications that the work and the efforts of my colleague, the Minister without Portfolio t responsible for he Task Force are being treated in the cavalier manner that the honourable member has just indicated . What I am suggesting to him that (

a) in the compilation of these Estimates t~at were prepared and finalized prior to the final compilation of the Task Force there was not any maJor 1630

Tuesday, May 2, 1978 or sign ificant impact on these Estimates. Some of the things that have occurred that seem to coincide with some of the recommendations of the Task Force , some reduction for instance in the car fleet , happen to coincide- I need hardly rem ind the honourable member- with the contraction of staff.

Some of the other situations that may have arisen have come very naturally as a result of the att itude of this Minister with respect to how he hopes the direction of this department will go, whether it is a matter of contracting out certain services that are being done with the department , or whether it's a matter of consolidating and managing our space requirements in a more professional manner.

I also indicated to the honourable members of the committee this afternoon that while the department has made significant strides in developing a Central Purchasing Bureau, we are not satisfied that we have completed that work that in fact was undertaken by the previous administration in making government purchasing as efficient and as rewarding in terms of taxpayers getting value for dollar spent as can be done .

There are still too many instances where either under a rather loosely-termed heading of emergency purchasing individual departments are still doing too much individual purchasing and not using the expertise and the capability that the Department of Public Works is developing in a Central Purchasing Bureau. Now , Mr. Chairman, I apologize to other members of the committee because I essentially am simply repeating myself for the benefit of the Member for Transcona who wasn't here this afternoon . MR. PARASIUK: Mr.

Chairman , I think in part the Minister is contradicting some of the prior statements that he had made . When I asked him the question about The Task Force I asked it in all seriousness , and I've asked it of every Minister because I think that the Task Force recommendations do hang like a cloud over the Estimates process and that we are approving something that may, in fact , be changed two or three or four months from now by Cabinet through Order-in-Council.

So I asked a very serious question about the Task Force , whether he had read it, whether his administration in this appropriation had read it, and he said , "They may have read it, I've read it" and he was treating it in a very casual manner. Now he's saying that it is a very important document and they , of course, will treat it seriously in the future although they haven't had a chance to treat it seriously to date because the Task Force was compiled after the Estimates process was completed .

Now that contradicts somewhat the statements of the Minister reponsible for the Task Force and the First Minister when they were heralding the progress of the various review teams under the Task Force because it was in recent months that the Task Force edited the reports of the review teams, but prior to that we had been told by the Minister responsible for the Task Force and by the First Minister that this group was doing valuable work and , in fact , they were receiving recommendations on an ongoing basis from members of the Task Force and taking them directly to Cabinet so that they would have an impact on the Estimates process apparently .

You didn't , I think , say that this afternoon but you were implying it now, that the Task Force Report recommendations , or the recommen dations of the review team that covered the Department of Public Works , really weren't a factor in the Estimates process for your particular department.

I was wondering when we were talking about administration whether you could provide an organizational chart for the department for last year and if you could provide one for this year because there have been some changes taking place, you say, as a result of contraction , and if you could also provide a detailed list of staff man years, including permanent positions , contract positions , casual positions , which ones were filled last year, which ones were vacant last year , which ones are filled this year, and which ones are vacant. MR. ENNS: Yes, Mr.

Chairman , I had indicated to the Committee that I was prepared to make this information available to the Committee and I now would like to do so. As of October 31, 1977 we had a total of n93.43 approved loan staff man years of which there were 100.38 vacant. As of March 31 , 1978 we have an approved staff man years , and that's what we're requesting for in these Estimates, the same as last year , 1193.43 with a vacancy rate of 126.15. So that you have an increase in the vacancy rate of some 26 staff man years . Now I can provide some further information ... MR. DOERN: Could you repeat those figures .

What's the vacancy for last year? MR. ENNS: The vacancy for last year was 100.38. MR. DOERN: Was that at March 31? MR. ENNS: Pardon me, that was October 31 , 1977. The vacancy position out of approved staff man years of 1193.43, a vacancy of 138 as compared to March 31 , 1978, the same staff man years approval of 1193.43 and a vacancy rate of 126.15- Pardon me, going back to October 31 , 1977, that was a vacancy of 100.38, not 138 as I believe I said . Now , we have in addition to that contract employee situation as of October 13, 1977, some 15 persons on contract.

Since that time some three have resigned , four have been terminated , four contracts extended, three transferred from contract to term , one an extension being considered at the current time by Management Committee of the Cabinet. If honourable members want to review those figures again for contract employees I'll go through them once again .

This is as of October 13, 1977, the Department of Public Works had some 15 contract employees, three who in the interim have resigned, four whose contracts were not renewed- were terminated, four whose contracts were extended, three who were transferred from contract to term- still on 1631

Tuesday, May 2, 1978 staff, and one position that is currently being considered . MR. PARAS! UK: I thank the Minister forth at information . l'd like a bit of clarification with respect to the first set of numbers he gave us, the 11 93.43 staff man years . Would that be permanent, term, and what is described by the admin istration manual as casual staff as well , because I would think that Public Works might have some casual staff as well . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I can break that down further . That figure of 1193 consists of 1102 permanent and 91 A3 term .

There is no accounting or prov ision for another category that the department uses from time to time , namely casual, but they are truly casual and do not enter into these figures at all . MR. PARASIUK: 'es, I was wondering if there was any seasonality to the hiring of term people because in a sense we're comparing one period of time of October 31 , 1977 to March 31 , 1978. One 's the fall period and one's the spring period .

We're just starting into the spring period and I was wondering if there was any change in seasonality because there has been a slight increase in the number of vacant staff positions in the department , and I just wondered if that was due to any specific action on the part of the new Minister or whether that was, in fact , due to seasonal changes . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , there is some seasonal factors that enter into it but I would have to indicate to the honourable member and to members of the Committee that there is a determined effort being made by the department to reduce the number of term people.

In other words we have had far too many pe:ople in the term classification that in effect are permanent- term people that have been with the department for a number of years and in the last little while there has been a determined effort by this ministry to re-classify those positions into the permanent category .

Employees that havH been with the department for a numbe r of years and still classified under term we feel tends to , you know , add to the amount of paperwork that's involved in the renewal of the term positions every year or whatever the term is allocated forB and if the ju stificat ion is there for permanent status to be granted to these kinds of employees , I know that in the last little while there has been , and it will be a continuing attemp t by the department to truly sort out and make more meaningful the diffElrential between those terms - whether a person is of permanent status , has permanent status within the Civ il Service , or whether the job and the kind of job that a person is filling is of a term nature. 4 MR.

PARAS! UK: I think that's a good thi ng to do. I think it probably lends itself to the Department of Public Works in a better manner than it might to , say, the Department of Renewable Resources where you might undertake a three year program and then want to ensure that you don't build in some expectations of a continued job even though the program is of a three year duration , say, a wildlife survey or somethin!~ like that.

I also would think it's a good thing in that for some strange reason over the last few months civil servants have been somewhat conce rned about the ir security of tenure and I would think that anything that the Minister of Public Works could do to alleviate their uncertainty and their feeling of insecurity is a welcome thing and I commend him for it. I wonder if there 's been any contracting out of work that was bein~J undertaken by the 1193.43 staff man years as of October 31 , 1977. Has there been any contracting out of work that they might have been doing? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman , I don 't believe that there has been any significant change that I can report to the Committee . I can indicate to the Committee that the department, as has been the practice in the past, in certain areas - I can think of the areas of security services, the areas of janitorial, caretakinn services, where possible , and where the right circumstances prevail- in other words, and this has a tendency to take place in the larger urban centres where there are, in fact, private firms in a position , and indeed seeking this kind of work , and where active tendering of this kind of work can talce place .

I want to make it very plain that I have asked the department to look at our practice and indeed tender out and contr act out this type of work . The department reminds me, and I'm cognizant of the fact that that isn't always possib le. It certainly isn't possible in many of our rural areas or remote areas where there ,simply isn't that service being provided by the private sector, but there has been no significant change.

Since the interim, since October 24th , if the honourable member wants to be specific , there have been three additional buildings that have been contracted out for cleaning , but in no instances did it involve any laying off of current staff with the Department of Public Works . MR. PARASIUK: That means that there were three new buildings in a sense brought under the aegis of the Department of Public Works and in these three . buildings the services were contracted out By formal tendt3r? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman , unlike some of the actions of some of the Crown Corporatio ns, I want to assure the Honourable Member for Transcona , by public tender . 1632

Tuesday, May 2, 1978 MR. PARASIUK: Okay . And they weren 't being handled before by staff from the Department of Public Works. I just want to make sure I'm clear on that understanding . MR. ENNS: No, Mr. Chairman , I should have corrected the honourable memberforTranscona . He put the word "new" into the description of the build ings. These were buildings that had previously been handled by the Department of Public Works . MR. PARASIUK: So that means then in a sense those three buildings had some staff, a certain number of staff who were doing the cleaning . How many staff were there? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman , I'm advised that that involved some six persons who have been redeployed within the department and who do different buildings that are under the responsibility of the jurisdiction of the department. The buildings in question are 210 Osborne , 270 Osborne , and 442 William. MR. PARASIUK: Well , there are two ways of looking at that. One could say well , we've redeployed the staff . Obviously there was a need for those six staff elsewhere if you've been able to redeploy them within the department , but then you could also make the observat ion that you could have hired an addit ional six staff . MR.

ENNS : Of course, Mr. Chairman , the observation could also be made that that's precisely what we did. MR. PARASIUK: But you 've hired them- now the point about that i s . MR. ENNS: Except they 're not government staff . MR. PARASIUK: Yes, in that sense we've had a similar situat ion in the Auditor's office and that was mentioned in the Public Accounts Committee where the Auditor indicated that they wouldn't be hiring , they wouldn't be filling some of the audit staff positions but rather they would be going out to private accounting firms to perform the audit.

The Auditor , at that time , and the Minister of Finance indicated that the overhead charges for the private accounting fi rms was something in the order of 150 percent of salary .

The Auditor, when he used his staff , used to charge the department or Crown agency that was audited an overhead charge that was 25 percent of the salary so it may turn out that you may save on staff man years but you may, in fact, end up spending more for the janitorial services or you may still pay the higher overhead charges through the private firm , but since the private firm possibly isn't using unionized staff , the wage rates being paid to these people who are performing the janitorial services is less than that that would have been paid by the Departmen t of Public Works and so you get a break even situation with the firm , as such , collecting the extra savings in wages in the form of overhead and profit.

I don 't know if the Minister is in a position to comment on the relative savings or losses of going out , through contracting out , or whether in fact he has anything to say about the relative overhead charges . MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman , I just want to say in this particular matter that I am aware of and ./ appreciate the member's concern but I want to assure the honourable member that the kind of staff that I have confidence in, and the kind of advice that I receive from my staff does not lead me to believe that it will be kind of a doctrinaire position that is going to be adopted by this Minister during the period of time that I have jurisdiction and responsibility for this department.

I have a concern that I share with my First Minister, that is in getting maximum value for the public dollar that is spent for government services , and my staff will be the first , and indeed have advised me from time to time where there is in fact only false economy or no savings available and can be achieved by going to the private sector rather than retaining DPW staff .

The Department of Public Works is possibly in a very unique situation in this sense that we have constantly , throughout the eight years it was under the administration of the Member for Elmwood and prior to that , been in that position of constantly having a good apportionment of its work being done by the private sector and by in-house staff . That could be said whether it involves architectural people, whether it involves design people, whether it involves security, whether it involves caretaking, whether it involves carpenters, plumbers and electricians.

There is a constant kind of a testing mechanism, if you I ike, within the department that immediately raises a flag that says, "Hold it, Mr. Minister , you are losing money by contracting this out, " because of some of the reasons the honourable member may say, overhead charges or what have you.

But in this particular instance, we are dealing with a fairly straightforward low overhead or no overhead situation and again only where the necessary services are being sought, where the provision of these services are being sought by the private sector and where the department is satisfied that the standard and quality of work can be done and it is in that instance where perhaps I would say that my honourable friends have a hang-up about employing the private sector and would tend to not do that.

I think that during the next three or four years or whatever period of time that I have within this department , you will see the Department of Public Works have a major complement 1633

Tuesday, May 2, 1978 of public in-house staff doing a wide variation of work. At the same time' there will be an encouragement , where possible and where it makes sound economic sense, to utilize the private sector . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Transcona . MR. PARASIUK: The Minister is obviously saying that he will try to have a judicious mixture. The reason why I was raising this is that this was a contentious issue at the City of Winnipeg level where there was a consultant's report that recommended complete contracting out of public works operations .

You have indicated in your prior statements that you will be considering that option and I think it has been looked at and utilized in the past, but you will be cons idering that option in the future . You don 't ind icate whether in fact you see any great changes in the mix that exists right now and I won't pursue this much further apart from asking the Minister whether he could indicate, at the appropriate time or whether he would like to now, where in fact the potential for contracting out exists within the appropriat ions that we are coming up to to .

Rather than asking specific questions about that now , if hEl could tell me that it is going to be in 2.(

b) or2 .(

c) or wherever, I will wait until that time to ask specif ics on it. MR. CHAIRMAN: Perhaps , to the Member for Transcona , under 2, major heading 2, Operations and Maintenance of Buildings and Grounds . I think that there would be a fair amount of scope in there for you to qUI:lStion on that particular line of thought. MR. PARASIUK: ust one final question on contracting out , then .

It can be somewhat misleading, and again I don't say that this is intentional or unintentional , it may be misleading when you tell the public that you are i fact reducing the number of civil servants and people are getting the impression that somehow this is a saving when in fact it isn't really a saving, all you are doing is transferring the employment of the public sector to the private sector but you are still using public funds to pay for it.

So this is one of those instances where , at least with respect to six people , the public really possibly might be saving a f1:lw pennies or it may not be, but we are still in fact employing six people . On the surface, one might have thought that we weren't employing those six people . The last question I have ties into this somewhat. The Minister indicated that there are five positions vacant in 1.(b). If I can get this correctly, you said 49 positions and now you have 44 positions? (Interjection)- You have 49 positions and 45 filled? MR. ENNS: Forty--nine still. No change in the positions . MR.

PARASIUK: Okay, 49 positions and 44 are filled? MR. ENNS: Forty--four are filled . MR. PARASIUK: That means that you have a vacancy rate of roughly 10 percent there. That is sort of the vacancy rate that the past administration had set as the target with respect to its restraint program of a coupl 13 of years ago , so I assume then that all you have done is just carried that restraint program forward into this particular appropriation Estimate . Is that correct , or have you made a further reduction? MR. ENNS: No. MR.

PARASIUK: You see, there was a general policy of a 10 percent vacancy rate and what you have here is a 10 percent vacancy rate. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , in this particular appropriation, the five bodies consist of a Deputy Minister , in his office an admin istrative secretary to the Deputy Minister, an administrative secretary No . 3, a systems a alyst, and staff associated with a Deputy Minister's office . MR. PARASIUK: So those positions aren't being filled; you don 't intend to fill them this year? MR. ENNS: That is correct. MR.

PARASIUK: If you don't intend to fill them this year , wouldn 't it be better accounting to just remove them from the books and then if you need them next year, bring them back in. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I'm not so sure. Depending on how the Acting Deputy Minister performs , I may want to appoint a Deputy Minister one of these days. MR. PARASIUK: Conceivably, I guess , although you don't have a salary in there . The First Minister might want to act too, I guess. MR. ENNS: Let me put it this way, I would have trouble doing it this year with these Estimates . 1634

Tuesday, May 2, 1978 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Selkirk. MR. PAWLEY: I'll pass by. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: I have comments on other items so I'll pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: Then 1.(b)(1)-pass- the Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman , before we move on, the Minister has said to the Committee pretty flatly that he wants to spend in the forthcoming year $53,901 ,100.00. Can he assure the Committee that he doesn't intend to spend any more than that? MR. ENNS: No, Mr. Chairman, I cannot assure the honourable member that.

Again, I refer the honourable member to my opening comments that these Estimates reflect what the department feels we need as a basic and bare minimum , if you like. I made it very plain to my colleagues, the other departments , the other Ministers, that we are a service department. We respond to their requests and their needs .

If a policy decision dictates an expansion in a certain area of, say, the Department of Health or in the Department of Corrections or in the Department of Education, that calls for unforeseen expenditures by the Department of Public Works that would normally fall within the responsibility of the Department of Public Works, then that will be initiated by that Ministry and by that department and would have to be added to these Estimates. MR. WALDING: Would that additional amount not be charged back to the department requesting the service? MR. ENNS: Again, Mr.

Chairman, I would suspect that the financial situation being what it is, the first criteria that would be asked by Management Committee of Cabinet to that department requesting additional space , for instance, would be, you know, do you have it in your Estimates? If they do, there would be a transfer of moneys that would enable the Department of Public Works to provide that service. This surely should not come as any news to members of the past administration who brought in Special Warrants totalling some $33 million or $35 million that were never talked about or discussed in a set of Estimates .

I just refuse to allow myself to be hamstrung or trapped into a situation that says that, you know, this is the request that we have before you. I would say it is quite inevitable that the kind of department that Public · Works is and the kind of bills that we are asked to pick up such as the overnight call for supplying janitorial services for the Franco-Manitobain Centre in St. Boniface on Christmas Eve that nobody had any comprehension , nobody had an opportunity and certainly staff couldn't conceive as being part and parcel of our responsibility, but the department responds to those requests .

In that sense, let me make it very plain , the substantial dollars that the department has accepted the responsibility for in the maintenance of the Churchill Complex are not reflected in these Estimates. But, Mr. Chairman , that should not be construed as misleading the Committee or attempting to do anything that is not out of the ordinary realm of practice by this department under this administration or under any other administration .

The Public Works Department is a kind of service department that gets thrust into positions that we cannot forecast to the last nickel or the last dime and therefore our Estimates are truly what the word implies, "estimates." MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, the Minister mentioned two specifics there, one in the last year, which indicates extra money spent, and one probably coming up in the forthcoming year. Is the Minister then suggesting to us that over the last year, 1977-78, that more was spent in his department than the amount indicated in the Reconciled Estimates of last year? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, staff advise me that it is conceivable that that final figure which has not been- although the books are closed- but the final allocation, that process hasn't been completed. I would think I would be correct in saying that that certainly is a reasonable figure to assume, that that was in fact the moneys that the Department of Public Works spent. MR. WALDING: And as far as the other matter of the Churchill Complex, is the Minister now referring to the same matter that was the subject of a question in the House where he indicated that he was negotiating with the Federal Government to cost-share that?

Is that the same thing? MR. ENNS: Yes, Mr. Chairman, that is precisely the matter that I raised just a few moments ago. I really cannot in all honesty put a finite figure on that. I will share with the honourable members my concern for doing so.

Firstly, to have implanted firmly into our Estimates any sum of money, $750,000 or $1 million, you know, that would be formally approved and voted on by this Legislature, certainly would weaken my position in terms of bargaining with the Federal authorities who would take the attitude, you know , Manitoba has provided the money, we'll listen to you but not too seriously.! take it somewhat as a bargain posture as much as anything else plus the fact that we don't have, you know we have- and I plead guilty to that fact- that I have perhaps been somewhat loose in these figures. 1635

Tuesday, May 2, 1978 We have arranged with the co-operation of the Municipal Affairs Department to provide the LGD of Churchill with the necessary cash flow so that they can carry on in more or less a normal manner, send out the ir billings to their taxpayers without the horrendous costs of the complex imposed on them . But we do not know precisely ...

When I met with the mayor, Mayor Les Osland, a former colleague of ours , in Churchill March 30th, and the Council we asked point blank- the Deputy Minister who was with me, a representative of the Municipal Affairs was with us- We asked the town council, "Okay, how much money do you need on a month to month basis, or on a three months to three months basis?" And they talked in terms of well , you know , if you can help us out with 40 to 50 thousand dollars, it'll vary with the different times and the costs associated with that complex and that is what we agreed to .

But I cannot with any clarity put the final figures down that the Department of Public Works and the Government of Manitoba has obligated itself with respect to that complex. MR. WALDING : Thank you , Mr. Chairman, I understand the Minister 's position perfectly and I don't criticize him in any way for not putting it in there . I wish him well with his negotiat ions with Ottawa . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister made some statement that he would have a handle on moneys for leasing so that if the department came to him he would take a look at their budget and I think he is confusing the old system with the new system . Under the old system departments had money for leasing, under the new system all the money is contained within his budget. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I can only indicate to the honourable member that among many things that are being reorfJanized currently in the short five , six months that this government has been in office, has been that practice .

I'm not placing myself in a position of being a financial expert, but on the concept that has been talked about and bandied about , zero base budgeting , where the full and true costs of a program ought to be identified, and ought to be clearly profiled so that the Ministers and the government knows at all times what the costs of any given program are and that they aren 't diffused in various different jurisdictions within the workings of government, that that practice is being reviewed . I'm not prepared to suggest that in fact a change has taken place.

What I believe may well take place though is that the department, the client department , will have to provide the funds and that a transfer of those funds will have to come to the Department of Public Works. In other words, we are not in the Department of Public Works anticipating or initiating possible demands by client departments . Nor will the Minister of Public Works necessarily lead the fight at management committee for additional space for the Attorney-General's department, or for the Department of Health .

I see that the responsibility of the respective Ministers who want the program, who want the service . MR. DOERN: Well , Mr. Chairman, my point is simply that at the bottom of the page there is almost $6 million . The Minister now has the financial control , he has the money. The departments do not have the money so he has a handle on things. I am assuming he is not going to turn back the clock and give each department its own budget for space rental and therefore they will do whatever they see fit. MR.

CHAIRMAN: I might point out to the Member for Elmwood that I believe his questioning currently would fal l under (d)(2). MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I am not really following a line of questioning , I am commenting on a comment that the Minister made, and I am indicating to him that I think he's either unfamiliar with that area or he is talking about turning the clock back . MR. CHAIRMAN: (b)(1 )-pass; (b)(2)-pass- The Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, the question here again, there is an increase in Other Expenditures . Can the Minister e)(plain that $13,000 increase?

He's cutti ng the staff by five positions, 10 percent, down $70,000, but the other expenditures are going up 10 percent. MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman , these increases provide for the normal rise in cost of fees, supplies , computer costs , etc ., and no allowance has been included fort he costs associated with the Minister's and Deputy Minis ter's offices. There has been allowance included here for the posting of the Ministers and Deputy Ministers Conference that I think is to take place in June or July of this year, or August of this year . MR. DOERN: How much is asked? MR. ENNS: Ten thousand. MR.

CHAIRMAN: (b)(2)- pass. 1636

Tuesday, May 2, 1978 MR. ENNS: Page by page, Mr. Chairman? MR. CHAIRMAN: (c)(1)-pass. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman , a number of questions here. Project Managements. First question is, it's down - Salaries are down $2,600 - can that be explained? MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman , that is because there has been no position made for renewal of contract of a contract draftsman in a construction supervisor position . MR. DOERN: So that means there is two SMYs less? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman , I am advised that the same situation prevails, that while the SMY positions remain , no provision has been made for filling these positions in the current fiscal year, so the dollars are less. MR. DOERN: And what are the positions last year to this year? How many? MR. ENNS: Twenty-eight, and no change . MR. DOE: But there are two vacancies. MR. ENNS: Two vacancies . MR. DOERN: Okay . Now I have a major question here I think , and that is what are these people doi ng?

For example , under Project Management , there is a score of projects handled in the department, the department seems to be doing very little . I gather that the staff in some areas is really just marking time, there is no major construction taking place, all sorts of projects have been frozen. I assume that in terms of quantity there is a reduction of dozens or hundreds of projects. Can the Ministe r explain what the staff is doing? MR. ENNS: Well , Mr.

Chairman , to the Honourable Member for Elmwood, admittedly the Department of Public Works current ly perhaps doesn 't have the high profile that it had a little while ago when we were erecting buildings like the Woodsworth Building above and beyond the legal height limits as set down by the City of Winnipeg ordinances , but I remind the honourable member that the Department of Public Works did not in effect have a major impact or a role to play in the major projects .

The Department of Works is carrying on in the normal functions of work with all departments of government , certainly one of the major ones being the carrying out and the work associated with the Fire Commissioner 's recommendations . Considerable effort is being directed in that area by staff at the moment and other than that I can only assure the honourable member .. .

Is he suggesting that this government has shown perhaps at least a preparedness to release staff that in fact we felt weren 't fulfilling usefu l function , that this staff is not , you know , fulfilling a function, and perhaps ought to be released? MR. DOERN: Well, you know , Mr. Chairman, I raise an interesting question . If the Minister 's staff has things to do and are given appropriate direction and appropriate funds, they can perform useful work , but it's a well known fact that there is a freeze on construction, there appears to be a reluctance to undertake many other or additional activities.

I assume that there is some reduction in the number of projects . Maybe the Minister could tell us how many projects are on the books or whether he has reduced the number of projects that are on the books . MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman , I am prepared to indicate to the honourable member that firstly the functions of this staff of course isn't totally related to the actual construction of a particular project. It relates to the operations of the senior administration, it operates to the space planning and the inventory control, it relates to space acquisition , contract administration, contract inspection.

Much of this kind of work is totally untouched by whether or not the government per se is involved in a heightened construction program itself or not. These staff positions would be carrying on these kind of functions with or without any major building program. Now in addition to that , the Department of Public Works has a concern in a number of projects such as the completion of the Dauphin office building . We are just completing the facilities at Gimli, the CNR facilities at Industr ial Park. We are working on the Berens River situation, school additions and alterations .

We are of course working with Winnipeg and that work has resumed on the major environmental lab. In addition to that , work is ongoing at the Land Titles Buildings , some changes and renovations are taking place at the Woodsworth Building to accommodate additional staff , particularly on the 15th floor and work is undergoing or being contracted and planned for at Gimli in terms of reconstruction of the Sewage Treatment Plant.

And , you know, we have already listed the rather major drive that the department will be involved with and I particularly pointed out where house staff is involved in terms of the Fire Commissioner 's work at Portage and at the Heading ley Correctional Institute . In addition to that we have a contract obligation to work on the Stedman School situation and of course an ongoing reassessment of the work and perhaps the renovation of 1637

Tuesday, May 2, 1978 either the old provincial garage to install a wind tunnel that my friend and colleague , the Honourable Minister for Mines and Resources , would like to use that building for, or whatever reasons or simply to maintain the services that are presently being carried out there . Mr. Chairman, the simple fact that we are not building skyscrapers in the City of Winnipeg currently or elsewhe re in the province, doesn't mean that this staff isn't being properly and effectively employed . MR.

DOE: Can the Minister quantify the number of projects that are on the books; can he give us a figure of X number of projects that there are? Is there such a figure? MR. ENNS : Mr. Chairman , I just read out some of the principal ones. I would ask the honourable member to accept that question as notice and allow staff to give me a more definitive list, but I am advised just now that we have some 196 actual projects underway throughout the province . MR. DO ERN: And can the Min ister indicate how many projects were on the books six months ago? MR. ENNS: Well again , Mr.

Chairman , I would have to take notice for that question but I can indicate and highlight to him some of the major programs that have been defe rred and which undoubtedly are well known to the honourable member . But for the record, certainly the question, there is a deferment of a major project at The Pas, The Pas correctional facilities including the court house . There has been a deferment olf the pposed project at Flin Flon . There has been a deferment of course of the major project that involved the MIPC building whether that included a combination of the Motor Vehicle Branch or not.

There are certain phases of renovations taking place presently at the Law Courts Building , but at the moment plans are being reconsidered and the project has been deferred I" in terms of the major redevelopment or rebuilding of the Law Courts facil ities. MR. DOERN: Could the Minister be more specific there . There is the exist ing Law Courts , which is a renovation , and there is a proposed new Provincial Judges building . Could he indicate which one he is speaking about? MR. ENNS: I am speaking about the renovation to the existing facility . MR. DOERN: The renovations. MR. ENNS: That's right. MR.

DOERN: You have deferred that. MR. ENNS: No, th13 renovation is proceeding right at the moment with the installation of elevators, that's phase one. Whether or not it was phased into several phases, the decision to complete the renovations has bee!n deferred , but work is currently under way in the installation of elevators, etc. at the Law Courts building . MR. DOERN: Well , Mr. Chairman, there are some 28 employees in this particular division, Project Management.

Again I say to the Minister that unless he frees up some of the projects that are frozen or introduced as new projects , that some of the staff is going to have to be either let go or they are going to have to spin their wheels . And the same will apply outside of the department, namely in the private firms, the architects and engineers in Manitoba who are having I understand some problems in terms of finding work . So I am saying to the does he have any plans at the moment to attempt to undertake any of these projects that he has frozen in relation to his internal staff and in relation to outside consultants?

MR. ENNS: Mr. Cl1airman, I think again perhaps this general question can be asked and answered more fully under the . Minister's We are dealing here with the question of 28 SMY positions in the Projects Management Division . The staff has indicated to the member that we have some 196 on going projects . We have several major projects , $6 million projects on stream that we are working at.

I am assured by the Assistant Deputy Minister that that on top of the pressures placed on the department to fulfil l the requirements of the Fire Commissioner's Code- and let me qualify that- at least begin to fulfill those s, requirement that the staff will not be spinning their wheels , the staff will be fully occupied atnd indeed very busy. MR. CHAIRMAN: (c)(1)-pass ... MR. DO ERN: Well , the Minister is a saying then that this particular division will proceed at 26 SMYs and there is suffici<ent work to occupy the staff fully for the next fiscal year. MR. CHAIRMAN: (c)(1)-pass ; (c)(2)-pass; (d)- MR.

DOERN: Mr. Chairman, just there again .. . 1638

Tuesday, May 2, 1978 MR. CHAIRMAN: (c)(2)? MR. DOERN: That amount is up $6,000 and that . . . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, that increase of some $7,000 provides for general salary increase and annual merit increment. No provision is made for two engineering aid positions. MR. DOERN: Those are the vacancies you mean? MR. ENNS: Are we on (d) , Design Services? MR. CHAIRMAN: No, (c)(2) . MR. ENNS: (c)(2)? I'm sorry . Okay , here we are, Other Expenditures, an increase of some $5,800 provides for the rise and cost of travelling and related expenditures as well as increased costs associated with the function of the project managers . MR. CHAIRMAN: (c)(2)-pass ; (

d) Design Services : (d)

(1) Salaries. MR. DOERN: Well, Mr. Chairman , there again , there is some winding down of the activity. First of all , could the Minister explain the $2,000 drop? How many SMYs and how many vacancies? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I am advised that there are no change in the SMYs. The total provision is for 53 SMYs. The relatively modest increase of $7,000 provides for the general salary increase and annual merit increment. As indicated earlier , there has been no prov ision made for two engineering aid positions that I suppose had been contemplated in this provision . MR.

DOERN: So its 53 SMYs proposed and two vacancies? MR. ENNS: Two vacancies , that's correct. MR. DOERN: Now again the question i8 what are theses, people doing There has been a reduction again apparently in some of the activity , or at least in the capital, so what are these people doing to keep busy? Has there been any reduction in their workload? Has there been any reduction in the number of projects they are handling? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , again I repeat what I said on the other appropriation . The kind of provisions of capital moneys do not influence the complement staffing of this division . Mr.

Chairman , I will repeat it I suppose a few more times during these Estimates, that what these Estimates basically require and ask for and provide for is the 99 percent of the blood and guts work that the Department of Public Works does, which is responding to requests of other departments for the regular maintenance , plus our own maintenance- you know , we have a responsibility as building managers for the level of maintenance that is mainta ined.

The addition or deletion of major capital projects has little bearing on staff requirements ; the Minister would be aware and he should be aware that on major projects it is virtually all contracted out. MR. DOERN: Well, you know , my impression is that there is some shrinkage in activity within the department. I would ask the Minister whether he feels that he is equally accessible to Public Works problems and is giving direction to Public Works personnel as equally as to Highways.

For example, is his ADM taking up half the time of his DM and when his DM reports to him are they spending a roughly comparable amount of time tackling these problems? Could he indicate that? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I would be the very first to admit that there is a certain cyclical rythym to the demands of Minister's time in different departments , and that certainly is true in the Department of Highways . There was a very heavy demand on the Minister's time in the consideration and preparation for the Highways Estimates , but more important for the development of the coming highway construction program .

That program now being virtually in place, I believe will leave me the kind of time that I'm quite ready to admit in front of DPW staff that DPW staff requires and deserves.! would be less than candid if I didn't indicate to honourable members of the committee that certainly partly because of the way and the nature of our work in Highways, that the period of say January to March is a particularly heavy period for a Minister of Highways to devote and allocate his time to when we are rushing to get a program approved either through the first steps first with the department through Cabinet, through the House and through the Legislature; and more important the actual physical work of working with the cooperation of caucus members meeting delegations from the city , from northern Manitoba, from the rural municipalities, the actual physical visiting of some sites , but that workload, and I speak with some brief experience in Highways, decreases notably once that program is in place.

After all I have now the authority to commit some $75 million for highway construction that is now being busily committed, and I would say in a month's time will be committed, and alii can tell my callers and visitors that wish consideration for future highway projects to call on me next year. I 1639

Tuesday, May 2, 1978 would throw this other little bargain to my dear friend, the Member for Elmwood, I expect to take that time that he otherw ise spent in inspecting art work in and around the province of Manitoba and devote that time to the Department of Public Works, and perhaps the two will balance e other out. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Elmwood . MR. DO ERN: Well, Mr. Chairman , if the Minister will skip his coffee break once a week, that should cover that assignment.

Could the Minister indicate, because I gather that rather than giving half his time to direction in t e Department of Public Works, he has probably been giving about 10 percent of his time , would he care to estimate how much of the past six months he has devoted to Public Works as opposed to Highways? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Public Works. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman , if I may beg the indulgence of the committee and you, Sir, to remind members that we am dealing with design.! suppose it can be stretched that we are designing the time for the Minister and his allocation to his various responsibilities . Let me firstly indicate that we do not allocate on a unilateral way, half day for this person, half day forth at depa rtment or 50 percent for this thing. I suppose I could also say its a commendation to the staff of DPW that manage to run the department with thEl time that I'm giving them. Mr. Chairman , I don 't want to be facetious about this matter.

I am well aware that the load is onerous and all I can ask is the committee's indulgence, indeed the people of Manitoba 's indulgence , that they will make known to the Premier, who after all appoints Ministers or doesn 't appoint Ministers, and allocates responsibilities to them as to whether or not a particular function is being carried out to the satisfaction of the Premier and ultimately to the ~ people of Manitoba . MR. DOERN: That wasn't my question, Mr. Chairman, my question is this .

If the Minister who is under a lot of pressure in terms of workload is only devoting a small part of his time to Public Works, and I gather from w at he says that it is on a crisis basis- like if you have a crisis he would say to his two ADMs , get in touch with the Deputy and then if there is a crisis, the Deputy wi II screen it and go to the Minister, because basically Highways is what's being run . Here is what I'm intere sted in. There is one of two alternatives here.

One is that there is a danger that the staff is waiting for direction from the Minister which they cannot get because he is preoccupied with Highways, or else he's simply leaving the department up to them and they are running the department without reference to the Minister . Can he indicate which it is? MR. CHAIRMAN: I might again mention to the members of the committee, and I would think that this is about the fourth time I've done it tonight , I would think that last question posed by the Member for Elmwood could be debated and discussed under Item l.(

a) Minister's Compensation. We have agreed from the outset that the re will be full scale debate at that point and I would ask members again that we are under (

d) Design Services . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I am breaking your own rule but I will conclude this remarks by indicating to the Honourable Member for Elmwood that we don't have crisis in the Department of Highways, we don 't have crisis in the Department of Public Works. For identification of the honourable member , I will admit that I go to bed often dreaming of the Department of Public Works and their concerns and I come to work often in the mornings with a fresh mind to tackle those problems . MR. DOERN: But you didn 't solve them in the meantime . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Transcona on (

d) Design Services . MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Chairman , I would hate to break the rule that you have allowed the Minister of Public Works to break often in not sticking to a particular item, and when he raises these other points, then of course people feel that they should comment on the points that he has just raised as well and I think that that is fair . If he can break the rules , surely the questioner can break the rules too . MR. MINAKER: How do you go to bed, Willy? MR. PARASIUK: I go to bed easily . I don 't know, I guess you don 't.

I don 't have to worry about simple things like not having toilet paper or hot water or things like that. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Transcona, back on Item (d). MR. PARASIUK: In fact , I want to just conclude that maybe the Minister should stay up a bit later and do a bit more work in these areas and not go to bed so early, but maybe he is a country boy and he needs 10 hours of sleep at night , I guess . But anyway, he did raise the point that he himself admitted that he didn't have sufficient time to adequately deal with the department but he felt that he would be getting more time now. Given that 1640

Tuesday, May 2, 1978 not only he but his Deputy is covering off two departments, does he feel that perhaps his Deputy has had the same type of strain that he has and that his Deputy hasn't been able to devote sufficient time to the department? Unless of course the poor Deputy isn't getting any sleep at all while the Minister is contently dreaming about other pastimes . I ask this question seriously in that in public administrative terms, if the Minister can't devote sufficient time to the department, usually what happens is that he is often given an extra Deputy Minister to handle that.

But here we have got a situation where not only do you have a Minister covering off two departments, but you have a Deputy as well, and I hope that the Minister isn't neglecting the department too much by forcing the Minister to cover off two very large departments in terms of the number of items and the number of particular decisions that you have to make. Because you have to make a large number of decisions, probably a larger number of decisions than you might have to make if you were Minister of Education where you have a whole set of large block grants being transferred.

I would like to get an explanation from the Minister as to what type of work do people in 1.(

d) Design Services do. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , this in general provides for the professional technical design services for in-house design , construction and occupancy of new and existing government accommodations. The division has four basic programs : Administration , Architecture, Engineering, and Interior Design . The division management consists of a director, an architectural branch manager, an engineering branch manager , and an interior design branch manager. The activity in Design is to build and to occupy, orientate it.

It is generally multidisciplined to the extent that individual branch activities are not separate and distinct unto themselves. The division does not generate activity on its own initiative but responds to the needs as identified by others. Do you want me to carry on with the well-prepared staff notes that I have? MR. PARASIUK: No, I was going to commend your department, in fact, obviously the staff has prepared a house book. MR. ENNS: Obviously the staff has, without the access that you suggest they have to me, have done their job well. Whether I do my job well will remain to be seen. MR.

CHAIRMAN: (d)(1 )-pass; (d)(2)-pass ; (d)-pass . -(Interjection)- All right, what is the wish of the Committee? MEMBERS: Committee rise. MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, we can't pass the major item because even though there is no money in the - slot for the Minister 's Salary , it is agreed upon between the Member for Elmwood and I that I will hold back that item until the tail-end. -(Interjection)- What is the wish of the Committee? MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, I move that the Committee rise. It is a non debatable motion; would you please put it to the Committee. MR. CHAIRMAN: All right, Committee rise.

SUPPLY- EDUCATION MR. CHAIRMAN: I would direct the honourable members to Page 26, the Department of Education. We are on Clause 4.(

e) Vocational Education ,

(1) Salaries . (e)(1 )-pass; (2}-pass; (3)-pass- the Honourable Member for Logan. MR. JE~KINS: Thank yo~, Mr. Chair~an, I wonder if the Honourable Minister can give us an explanation of what the Ass1stance cons1sts of and why the reduction of approximately $67,000.00. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR. _COSENS: Mr .. Chairman, I believe I was dealing with this just before we broke from the last Sess1on.

I had mentioned that the manner of funding Alternative Delivery Systems had been now transferred or incorporated into the regular operations of the Public Schools Finance Board and the existing grant structure that exists there, so this separate Fund for Assistance is no longer required. However, the $35.5 that members will notice in the appropriation represents the amount to fulfill equipments that existed under the former program, before the transfer. MR. CHAIRMAN: (3)-pass; (e)-pass . (f)

(1) Salaries-pass; (2}-pass- the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks. 1641

Tuesday, May 2, 1978 MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, this is a new heading, Measurement and Evaluation . How does this compare with what line in last year's Estimates? There was nothing called that. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. COSENS: Mr. Chairman, I don't believe there was anything that's actually comparable in last year's Estimates that we could use under this particular heading . MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman , there may not be but there is an amount shown for 1977-78, almost an identical amount , $:35,100, and $120,000 on the left-hand side. That's why I asked if there was anything comparabl <e.

Since an amount was shown on the last year's column , would the Minister then tell us where these figures came from and what is the nature of the program? ~ MR. COSENS: Yes. The equivalent there, Mr. Chairman , would have to be the moneys allocated for the Mathematics Student Assessment Program that existed last year under the heading of ERPA, which no longer is found in the Estimates this year. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Burrows . MR.

BEN HANUSCI-iiAK: Would the Honourable Minister then explain what will be contained within this item for the forthcoming year, the type of Measurement and Evaluation he proposes to do for the total of $157,000? I'm not going to make specific reference to the $157,000 or the $37,000, because we're still on the Salaries item . Could the Honourable Minister indicate the type of Measurement and Evaluation projects that he proposes to undertake during the forthcom ing fiscal year? MR. COSENS: Mr.

Chairman , a growing controversy has developed in recent years about the quality of education, focusing particularly on standards, and without available data the criticisms can neither be accepted nor rejected . Unfortunately data available at the provincial level has either been non-existent or, at best, fragmentary. While the situation at the local level varies from one jurisdiction to another, many parents seem to have a limited understanding of school programs , their objectives and the way in which their children are evaluated . Measurement in itself is a process that relates to the collec tion of data,

whereas evaluation involves the applicat ion of valued judgments to data that has been collected. Thus , when we speak of Measurement and Evaluation in terms of curriculum and instruction , we are addressing ourselves to the review of student performance and instructional practices in a variety of curriculum areas. Evaluation, I would suggest , Mr. Chairman, is a shared responsibility. The primary responsibility for assessing studen t performance rests at the local level, with the teacher , the school and the school board.

It is not the function of the province to become involved in the regular ongoing evaluation of the individual pupil's work which clearly is best carried out in the classroom and school. It is, however, the province's responsibility to gather data that will provide information on the operation of the educational system as a whole, in order to assist the overall decision-making processes .

In the areas of C rriculum and Instruction there is a particular need to provide the general public, professional educators and the various levels of government , on a continuing basis with information that will help determine how well educat ional programs in schools are meeting the needs of students .

Over the longer term, therefore , the purposes of a Provincial Learning Assessment Program would be: No. 1, the systematic gathering of data on a selective basis over a period of years that would provide information to interested public as to the level of student achievement in various areas of the school curriculum that would support the overall decision-making process in curriculum development. The task of identifying and design ing resour ce material, the development of appropriate pre-service and in-service training prog rams and the allocation of resources generally. No. 2.

The identi fication and/or design and developme nt of evaluation models and support instruments that could be utilized at local school board discretion to assess the level of student achievement and improve the quality of instruction at the classroom l evel. It is anticipated that there will exist a close relationship between the evaluat ion process , which will span a long period, and the curriculum, which will like continue to change and develop during this period.

Thus , feedback from assessment activities conducted on the basis of what schools are actually doing in a particular area, closely relates to curriculum development brought about by changing needs in society and increased knowledge about how children learn, which in turn requires the . development of new methods of assessment. Thus the goals and objectives established in the provincial curriculum provide the underpinnings for the provincial evaluation process . Co-operative planning will be necessary to co-ordinate provincial and local measures to improve the overall learning process .

Provincial data will not be used by the province to compare school with school and division with division . In order to provide for the meaningful uti lization of program information obtained at the provincial level, however , school boards will need to take the necessary steps to assess the extent to which learning assessment findings are applicable to thei r schools and students . Responsibility for this lies with the board, with the department's role being one of support. The provincial eva I uation program will need time to develop information that can be meaningfully 1642 ::.

Tuesday, May 2, 1978 interpreted . Initial assessments will be designed to collect base line data against which student .. performance on future assessments can be measured . Methods of measurement will vary from one area to another. The precise methods by which data is to be collected will need to be decided as the program develops . It is expected that the experience gained in the experimental Grade 9 Mathematics Assessment Program conducted in 1978 will be of assistance in determining future directions . Decisions will need to be made in due course concerning those areas of the curriculum to be assessed.

At what grade levels, with what frequency , by what methods. These kinds of decisions at both the planning and utilization stages will be taken with the involvement of the major educational ., interest groups , the Manitoba Teachers Society , the Manitoba Association of School Trustees, the Manitoba Association of School Superintendents , the post-secondary institutions and others. Work in the area of student assessment will be closely articulated with the work of the general program review structure in the Department of Education itself.

To ensure a comprehensive approach to evaluation and to avoid confinement to narrow goals , the reorganized Department of Educat ion has assigned a collective responsibility to three branches that will work closely together : (1) , the Research Directorate (2), the Program Directorate which includes a sect ion having particular responsibilities for evaluation and measurement; also, the External Admin istrative Support Unit. Much of the work du ring the 1978/79fiscal year will be devoted to preparation and planning.

It is also anticipated that some aspects of the operational program will get under way during this period . MR. CHAIRMAN: (f) (1)-pass - The Honourable Member for Logan. MR. JENKINS: Thank you Mr. Chairman. This afternoon we were able to determine from the Minister some of the computer services that are used by the department. I want to give the Minister notice now . First , I want to ask him th is item . Are there any computer services in this item?

Secondly , would he undertake sometime before we get to the his Salary to give us a breakdown of all the departments in the Estimates here of Computer Services , and who holds the contract for those services? MR. CHAIRMAN: (f)(1 )-pass ; (2)-pass- the Honourable Minister . MR. COSENS: To answer the Member for Logan , I just wanted to make a note of his request. No. 1, no. The answer is no, there are not Computer Services as such in this Department , they would utilize the Computer Services available in that

section of the Department. And yes, we will endeavour to provide him with that information before we finish these Estimates. MR. CHAIRMAN: (f)(2)-pass ; (f)-pass ; (

g) Bureau de I' Education Francaise, (1 )-pass - the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks. MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman , again I would like to get these figures straightened out. Last year's Estimates shown here, 472 under Salaries ; last year's print was 445, and I can see that would probably be the same because of the general salary increase that was allocated . Other Expenditures- 559,600,

whereas last year's printed vote showed 954,000. So I would like an explanation of that. Bilingual Agreements, there was 534,000 shown this year; there was nothing in the printed Estimates last year. Is it because the agreement was signed after the Estimates came in- is that the reason for it? As well, the Salary increase this year, which is slightly ahead of last year. I don't know if that is because more people are involved , or whether that's -I would really like an explanation between the 472 and the 503. On the Other Expenditures , I see it has dropped.

It has dropped over what they estimated last year by a considerable amount and has dropped over the printed 1978 column by close to $80,000.00. The big increase is in the third one, the Bilingual Agreements . Is that becauseofthe new Federal Agreement that was signed during the course of the last year in the field of bilingualism? I see where the recoveries from Canada are up considerably than what was anticipated- about 400,000. Am I right in assuming that the general increase in this appropriation is because more money is flowing from Canada?

In fact, the increase therefore can be attributed to the fact that Canada is contributing more to this program than they have in the past? So it is a series of questions. MR. COSENS: Mr. Chairman, I will deal with some of the questions posed by the Member for Seven Oaks immediately; perhaps there are one or two of them that I don 't have sufficient information on; I will come back to them . His first question in regard to Salaries . There is no change in the number of people involved in this particular category.

The change possibly could be found in the fact that there were eight and two thirds contracts last year, five and one-third this year . There are six secondments this year as opposed to three last year . The difference comes in in the types of people who are being employed in that department at this time; it doesn't represent an increase in manpower . Under Other Expenditures, the Member for Seven Oaks points out the difference between last year and this year . Most of this is accounted for because of some over-budgeting last year in this area 1643

Tuesday, May 2, 1978 and the fact that th,ese amounts were not spend completely, particularly in the area of curriculum development. The estimate of what was going to be required there apparently was not utilized and, as .:.. a result, there has bt3en some considerable diminution there and also in the Research and Evaluation field, a matter again of over-budgeting last year in relation to what was spent. We've cut back generally in those a1reas where they found that the budget was not completely utilized last year. MR. MILLER: Well, Mr.

Chairman, whether it's been utilized or not, when it's print over print, it doesn't necessarily indicate the amount expended. The left-hand column , the printed column in this year's book would indicate that the vote, unless there was a transfer out of that vote elsewhere, but the fact that less was expended , will simply mean that the money will lapse at the end of the year .

That's it, unless it's used elsewhere in this Item 4, Program Development and Support Services , so that the explanation that there was an over-budgeting of estimate and the fact that it wasn't achieved wouldn't account for the fact that the figure has dropped from $954,000 to $559,000 as between the two printed Estimates . MR. COSENS: I have some problem, Mr. Chairman, in finding the $954,000 that the member is referring to here under Other Expenditures . It's $559,000 on the left-hand side in my figures and $478,000 on the rigl1t-hand side . MR. MILLER: I guess I didn 't make myself clear .

I'm also looking at last year's Estimate Book, 1977- 78, where on the ri9ht-hand side which was the Estimates passed last year, for Other Expenditure there was $954,200.00. Taking that last year's print and looking at the left-hand column this year, then there should be a similarity unless there was a transference out because certain programs had been transferred elsewhere into the system . Otherwise , the numbers should be the same and if there's going to be a lapsing because the money isn't expended , it will lapse; the print should be the same unless there is a transference out elsewhere into this

section . MR. COSENS: WeH, Mr. Chairman , I don't have the last year's book with me. I was working from this one and the figure that I have on the left-hand side for the money expended is $559,600 and the money provided this year, $478,700.00. Now if the Member for Seven Oaks has another figure, I would suggest that perhaps that money wasn't used. I'm not aware of what happened to that particular sum . MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman , I don 't expect that the Minister wou ld have that information on hand but certainly staff will know what I mean.

If last year an Estimate was passed of $954,200, ifthatsame figure doesn't now show on the left-hand side, it has nothing to do with expenditures, nothing to do with cash flow because we could be sitting here in February and working on these Estimates- we happen to be a little later this year and the 1977-78 year would still be with us- so it's the printed Estimate vote over the printed Estimate vote and the figure I'm referr ing to is $954,200 voted Estimate last year with only $559,600 shown this year in the 1978 column .

It can only be if there is a transference out for other purposes and I don't expect the Minister to have this but I think his staff certainly should be able to find that and explain to us why there is so much less shown than what was estimated last year and whether that amount has been transferred. If it has been transferred , then why it wasn't shown in its original form and it would just lapse at the end of the year. MR. COSENS: Mr. Chairman , we'll attempt to reconcile that figure for the Member for Seven Oaks.

He's quite right , I don't have that material with me and we'll have our offic ials check it out for him . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Burrows . MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Chairman, in the proce ss of checki ng that out , I think the committee would appreciate it if the Honourable Minister would also take note of the fact that in the Estimates Book before us, in showing the Estimates approve d for the fiscal year just ended, March 31st, 1978, there are two lines after Salaries , Other Expenditures of $559,600; and Bilingual Agreements , $534,600.00.

The previous year 's Estimates Book showed only one line, Othe r Expenditures, $954,200.00. But be that as it may, Mr. Chairman , that figure doesn 't square with the tota l of the two shown in this year's Estimates Book . There is a difference of well over $100,000, somewhere in the order of $130,000, so perhaps the Honoura ble Minister could offer some explanation for that difference . If the Honourable Minister doesn 't have the answer for that, perhaps that could be obtained as we are continuing with the consideration of the Estimates .

But I would like the Honourable Minister at this point in time to express his assessment, his analysis of the needs within this particular program , the needs for the future as they may develop . I'm referring particularly to a school such as Sacre Coeur and I would like the Honourable Minister to comment upon the enrolment in it as compared with the enrolment of the previous year. Is the enrolment increasin!~ or not ; if the enro lment is increasing, is there any evidence that may indicate to the Minister the need to establish other schools of a similar kind to meet a similar need?

Also , the enrolment in general that comes under this category , is it levelling off , is it increasing, and what the future needs may be in the whole area of bilingual education? 1644 J<·

Tuesday, May 2, 1978 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. COSENS: Mr. Chairman, in reply to the Member for Burrows, I would inform him that there are some 82,000 students taking French as a second language. Of that figure, some 2,000 are involved in immersion programs . He asked for the enrolment in Sacre Coeur; I don't have that figure immediately available but I can get that for him. There are a certain number of people involved in the French first language program, some 2,000 in the immersion, as I mentioned, and in the French first language, some 8,500.

So we have the three areas, then , within the French Language Department: 82,000 students who are taking French as a second language, as I mentioned; some 2,000 in the immersion program; and some 8,500 in French as a first language. The member asked for the situation on enrolment and I can inform him at this time, on the information that we have, that there seems to be a tendency towards a levelling off in this area with a certain increased interest possibly, if in any one of the three areas that I have mentioned to him, in the immersion program area.

Of the three areas, the increase in interest would appear to be there. In the other two areas, a noticeable levelling off at this time. MR. HANUSCHAK: Would the Honourable Minister also comment upon the post secondary programs that fall within this appropriation because I believe that there are some programs offered at St. Boniface College and my concern or the matter of interest to me is, Mr. Chairman, is the government contemplating expanding the post secondary Francais program into other areas?

I am thinking more of the community college type of courses, for example , the secretarial science course which had been instituted at St. Boniface College within the past short while. Are there others that the Honourable Minister may be contemplating of a similar kind of instituting at St. Boniface College? MR. COSENS: Mr. Chairman, certainly we will be evaluating and hav been evaluating the courses offered in the community college area at St. Boniface College. As the need develops, we will be prepared to address it. MR.

HANUSCHAK: I believe in the secretarial area, if my memory serves me correctly, there are probably a couple of distinct and separate courses being offered, one of a longer duration and the other somewhat shorter. Does the Honourable Minister know what experience the graduates have had from that course or those courses in securing eloyment in the Province of Manitoba? MR. COSENS: I understand that the graduates of those particular courses, Mr. Chairman, have had no problem whatsoever in finding employment. MR CHAIRMAN: (g)(1)-pass ; (2)-pass; (3)-pass- the Honourable Member for Burrows . MR.

HANUSCHAK: Yes, before we come to Item (3), Recoveries from Canada, is it the intention of the Minister, in his organizational structure, to retain the Assistant Deputy Ministerial status for the position of the individual heading up this particular branch, or is he contemplating any changes? MR. COSENS: Mr. Chairman, at this time we are contemplating no changes.

(3) MR. CHAIRMAN: -pass; (g)-pass - The Honourable Member for Burrows . MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr.

Chairman, before we pass (g), could the Honourable Minister explain, in view of the fact that even though this is not shown as an expenditure but nevertheless it is shown as an Item within the Estimates book , a Recovery from Canada for the fiscal year, the Estimates for which are being considered at the present time , a figure of $1.23 million is shown and Recoveries for the fiscal year just ended were $872,000- a difference of some $350,000- could the Honourable Minister explain the somewhat significant increase in Recovery from the Federal Government?

In -~ other words, is it the launching of certain types of programs or what? MR. COSENS: Mr. Chairman, just while we are gathering the information for the Member for Burrows, I would like to go back to the question I believe that was posed by the Member for Seven Oaks regarding the number of lines and so on under this appropriation. Last year, again I say I understand that there were only two lines and this year we have three, the reason being that the bilingual agreement expenditures are shown as a third line this year, and the other fact being that St.

Boniface Community College programs were in student aid last year, and they have been transferred to BEF, and they amount to, I believe, some $143,000 which I believe would reconcile that particular set of figures . MR. CHAIRMAN: (g)-pass; (h)(

l) Salaries-pass; (2) -The Honourable Member for Burrows. MR. HANUSCHAK: How does the enrolment at the Manitoba School for the Deaf for the current school year compare with that for the previous year? 1645

Tuesday, May 2, 1978 MR.COSENS: For 1977-78, Mr. Chairman , 121; 1976-77, 119. MR. HANUSCHAK : Well perhaps , Mr. Chairman , the Honou rable Minister may want to expla in what appears then to be somewhat of a reduction in the approp riation , on a per cap ita basis, in relation to the enrolment , in view of the fact that the enrolmen t has only decreased by two students by less than 2 percrent. -(Interjection)- No, I believe it has decreased .. . I'm sorry , perhaps the Honourable Minister could assist me. I was of the impression that the enrolment had decreased by two , or is it the oth rer way around? MR.

COSENS: Up. MR. HANUSCHAK: Very well then , that strengthens the point that I wish to make , Mr. Chairman . In view of the fact that the enrolment has increased , be it very slight ly, but I note that the salary appropriation is essentially the same, you know , a difference of $5,000 on $1 million wh ich is something in the order of one-half of one percent. It would appear , the n, Mr. Chairman , that this may reflect some reduct ion in . level of service? MR. COSENS: Mr. Chairman , on the contrary , there is no reducti on in service.

I believe I mentioned -: in the House that we would be engag ing two staff that have been vacant, I understand , in the past year , and had been filled in by substitute individuals , and we are endeavouring to have those two permanent individuals as of September , to fill those two vacant positi ons. So, certainly , no reduction in this area whatsoever . MR. CHAIRMAN: (h)(2)-pass ; (h)-pass -The Honourable Memb er fo r Brandon East. MR. EVANS: Mr. Chairman , can the Honourable Ministe r enlighten us on whether there is any new thrust that will take place in this area in the forthcoming year?

Are there any new program developments in con nection with the Manitoba Schoo l for the Deaf in everything it may or can do in our educational system? MR. COSENS: I th ink the program that is being carried out at the Manitoba School for the Deaf , Mr. Chairman , has several directions , and I certainly agree with what is happening there . In vocational education the school has considerable commitment there to integrate students into regular vocational technica l schools where possible and quite a concentrated effort , I understand , is being made in that direction. They are considering expanding that

part icular program , that integration in the months ahead and , of course , this puts some demand on support services, but they tell me that this is possible with the types of supports that do now exist. MR. EVANS: Thank you , Mr. Chairman . To what extent does the Man itoba School for the Deaf reach out into the broader educational community , and assist various school divisions in coping with the deaf children- I don 't mean totally deaf , but of course perhaps partially deaf people or students - who may exist in the various school divisions around the province ? MR. COSENS: Mr.

Chairman , to the Member for Brandon East, I think I should clar ify that the School for the Deaf is an institution in itself. Its Outreach Services , I believe is what he would be referring to , are not one of its primary directions at all. It operates as a school with the students either living in residence or coming to it as a Day School. That type of service that you are referring to , we will certainly be considering under 4.(

j) Child Development Services , if we are talking about

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-2-33b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 2nd hansardpdf 33b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	71b32e584bcd858027e9ab1314c0de2dc547b620

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