Manitoba Hansard — 16 May 2001 (Sitting 31, 37th Legislature, 2nd Session)

37-2-31

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session- Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LI No. 31- 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, May 16, 2001

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASHTON, Steve, Hon. ASPER, Linda BARRETT, Becky, Hon. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUA Y, Louise DERKACH, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, Hon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry FAURSCHOU, David FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. GILLESHAMMER, Harold HELWER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWAY,Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon.

MITCHELSON, Bonnie MURRAY, Stuart NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darren REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, Hon. SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry SCHULER, Ron SELINGER, Greg, Hon. SMITH, Joy SMITH, Scott, Hon. STEFANSON, Heather STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charles wood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La Verendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Kirkfield Park Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Lac du Bonnet Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carman Assiniboia Fort Rouge Wellington Rossmere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Tuxedo Dauphin-Roblin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C.

N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P.

18 23 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, May 16,2001 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Manitoba Hydro Lines Routes Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of N. Lutzer, Melissa Lutzer, Daryl Si lven and others, praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro (Mr. Seli nger) consider alternative routes for the additional 230kV and 500kV lines proposed for the R.M. of East St. Paul. Kenaston Underpass Mr. Frank Pitura (Morris): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Terry Barsalou, Maryann Lagace, Anne Morissette and others, praying that the Premier of Manitoba (Mr. Doer) consider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kenaston and Wilkes. Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Nicole Liebrecht, Jef f Novan, Christine McC racken and others, praying that the Premier of Manitoba consider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kenaston and Wilkes. Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Sean Bednarek, Rob Wray, S. Corrigan and others, praying that the Premier of Manitoba consider reversing his decision to not support construc tion of an underpass at Kenaston and Wilkes. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Manitoba Hydro Lines Routes Mr. Speaker: The honqurable Member for Springfield (Mr. Schuler), i I have reviewed the petition and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Mr. Speaker: Cle rk, please read.

Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT the R.M. of East St. Paul has the highest concentration of high voltage power lines in a residential area in Manitoba; and THAT the R.M. of East St. Paul is the only jurisdiction in Manitoba that has both a 500kV and a 230kV line directly behind residences; and THAT numerous studies have linked cancer, in particular childhood leukemia, to the proximity of power lines.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIO NERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro consider alter native routes for the additional 230kV and 500kV lines proposed for the R.M. of East St. Paul. Kenaston Underpass Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Morris (Mr. Pitura), I have reviewed the petition and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Cl erk, please read.

Madam Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT the intersection at Wilkes and Kenaston has grown to become the largest unseparated crossing in Canada; and

18 24 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16 , 200 1 THAT the volume of traffic for this railroad crossing is twelve times the acceptable limit as set out by Transport Canada; and THAT vehicles which have to wait for trains at this intersection bum up approximately $1. 4 million in fuel, pollute the environment with over 8 tons of emissions and cause approxi mately $7.3 million in motorist delays every year. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIO NERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Premier of Manitoba consider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kenas ton and Wilkes .. Mr.

Speaker: The honourable Member for Fort Whyte (Mr. Loewen), I have reviewed the petition and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Mr.

Speaker: Cl erk, please read. * (13: 35) Madam Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT the intersection at Wilkes and Kenaston has grown to become the largest un separated crossing in Canada; and THAT the volume of traffic for this railroad crossing is twelve times the acceptable limit as set out by Transport Canada; and THAT vehicles which have to wait for trains at this intersection bum up approximately $1. 4 million in fuel, pollute the environment with over 8 tons of emissions and cause approxi mately $7.3 million in motorist delays every year.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIO NERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Premier of Manitoba consider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kenaston and Wilkes. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger), I have reviewed the petition and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Mr. Speaker: Cle rk, please read.

Madam Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT the intersection at Wilkes and Kenaston has grown to become the largest unseparated crossing in Canada; and THAT the volume of traffic for this railroad crossing is twelve times the acceptable limit as set out by Transport Canada; and THAT vehicles which have to wait for trains at this intersection bum up approximately $1. 4 million in fuel, pollute the environment with over 8 tons of emissions and cause approxi mately $7.3 million in motorist delays every year.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIO NERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Premier of Manitoba consider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kenas ton and Wilkes. * (13 :40) PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Standing Committee on Rules of the House First Report Mr. Conrad Santos (Chairperson): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the First Report of the Commit tee on Rules of the House. Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): Your Standing Comm ittee on Rules of the House presents the following as its First Report.

May 16 , 200 1 J._EGISLA TIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 18 25 Meetings: Your committee met on: May 14 , 200 1, in Room 2�5, of the Legislative Building to consider matter� ref erred. An Honourable Member: !Dispense. Mr. Speaker: Dispense. Matters under consideratiqn: Amendments to the Rules, prders and Forms of Proceedings of the Legz�lative Assembly of Manitoba. Resignations/Elections: Mr. Santos elected as Vice-Chairperson. Amendments to Rules! Considered and Reported: THAT existing Rule 2 6e repealed and the following substituted: Daily Sittings . 2.

(1) The Assembly shaAl meet each Monday, Tuesday, Wednesd(ly or Thursday that is not a holiday, unleh otherwise ordered.

(2) The Assembly shaU also not sit during the week in Mar� designated by the Department of E ucation as "spring break" for the pub ic school system. i THAT new Sub-rules 2.�(a), 2.3(b), 2.3(c). 2.3(

d) and 2.3(

e) be added hs follows: Fall Sittings 2.3(

a) The House shall sit in any one or more of the months of September, Qctober, November or December for a minimum bf twelve (1 2) sitting days, but the 12 sitti � s days shall not commence after December 1r'. 2.3(

b) If a new session is cdmmencing in the fall, the House shall be adjourrled by the Speaker at the end of the first full week in December without the question being put, providing the Throne Speech has been passed, and the House shall stand adjourned until the call of the Speaker. 2.3(

c) If the fall sittings are a continuation of an existing session, sub-rule 2.3(

b) shall not apply. 2.3(

d) The provisions of sub-rule 2.3(

a) are not applicable for the First Session of the Legislature following a Provincial general election. 2.3(

e) Notwithstanding sub-rule 43. (1), the Government House Leader can interrupt the debate on the Address in Reply to the Speech from the Throne for up to three days, which need not be consecutive, to call government business. This rule does not affect the number of days of debate outlined in Rule 42. THAT existing Sub-Rule 3.(3) be amended as follows: Thursday Morning Sittings 3.

(3) Except during the debates on the motion for an Address in Reply to the Speech from the Throne and the Budget the House shall also sit on Thursdays at 10:00 a.m. for Private Members' Business. On these days, the Speaker shall leave the Chair at 12:00 p.m. until 1:30 p.m. THAT new Sub-Rule 3.(4.1) be added as follows: Adjournment on Thursday during Committee of Supply 3.

(4.1) Once consideration of department estimates has begun, the Speaker shall adjourn the Thursday sitting on Friday at 12:30 p.m. to accommodate the sittings of the Committee of Supply on Friday morning. THAT existing Sub-Rule 3.(5) be amended as follows: Adjournments over the weekend 3.(5} When the House is adjourned at 12:30 p.m. on Fridays during the debates on the motions for an Address in Reply to the Speech from the Throne and the Budget or when the House is adjourned at 12:30 p.m. on Fridays during consideration of departmental estimates and at all other times on Thursdays at 6:00 p.m. it shall stand adjourned, unless otherwise ordered, until the following Monday.

18 26 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16 , 200 1 THAT existing Sub-Rule 22.(2) be amended as follows: Order after Routine Business 22.

(2) The order of business for the consideration by the House, day by day, after the daily routine and on Thursday mornings shall be as follows: (

a) Report Stage - Amendments Government Bills - Concurrence and Third Readings, Second Readings, etc. (

b) Private Members ' Business 10:00 a.m. to 12:00 p.m. on Thursday mornings. 10:00 a.m. to 11:00 a.m. Private Bills Public Bills Orders for Return and Addresses for Papers Private Members ' Resolutions 11:00 a.m. to 12:00 p.m. Private Members ' Resolutions Orders for Return and Addresses for Papers Public Bills Private Bills THAT new Sub-Rule 22.(3) be added: Two separate periods 22.

(3) Private Members' Business on Thursday mornings shall consist of two separate periods, each one considering a different category of Private Members' Business. THAT existing Sub-Rule 44.(1) be amended as follows: Debatable Motions (

f) for the Concurrence and Third Reading of a Bill. THAT existing Sub-Rule 60.(1) be amended as follows: Notices of motions, etc. 60.

(1) One day notice must be given of a motion: (

a) for leave to present a Bill, resolution or address; or (

b) for the appointment of any Committee; or (

c) for the placing of a written question on the Order Paper; but this Rule does not apply to Bills after their introduction, or to Private Bills, or to the times of meeting or adjournment of the House. THAT existing Sub-Rule 60.(2) be amended as follows: Notices of motion to be filed before adjournment 60.

(2) The notice of motion shall be (

a) filed with the Clerk before the daily adjournment hour of the House; (

b) printed in the Notice Paper two days after filing; and (

c) placed on the Order Paper for consideration on the day following the notice. THAT new Sub-Rule 60.(2.1) be added as follows: Notices of motion to present a Bill to be filed before adjournment 60.

(2.1) Notwithstanding sub-rule (2), the notice of motion for leave to present a Bill shall be (

a) filed with the Clerk before the daily adjournment hour of the House; {

b) printed in the Notice Paper one day after filing; and (

c) placed on the Order Paper on the day following the notice. THAT new Sub-rule 60.(2.2) be added as follows: Filing of Notices of motion 60.

(2.2) A notice of motion shall be filed with the Clerk at any time (

a) during the session prior to the daily adjournment hour of the House; and {

b) during an intersessional period until 12:00 p.m. two working days prior to the opening of a new session or the reconvening of an existing session. THAT new Sub-Rule 60.(2.3) be added as follows: Filing of Notices of motion for leave to present a Bill 60.

(2.3) Notwithstanding sub-rule (2.2). a notice of motion for leave to present a Bill shall be filed with the Clerk at any time

May 16 , 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 18 27 (

a) during the session prior to the daily acijournment hour of the House; and (

b) during an intersessional period until 12:00 p.m. one working day prior to the opening of a new session or the reconvening of an existing session. THAT new Sub-Rule 60.(2.4) be added as follows: Notice of intersessional filing 60. (2. 4) The notice of motion filed in accordance with sub-rules (2.2)(

b) and (2.3)(b), (

a) in the case of the opening of the first session of a legislature, shall be printed in the Notice Paper on th e third day of business; or (

b) in the case of the opening of a second or subsequent session, shall be printed in the Notice Paper on the second day of business; or (

c) in the case of reconvening of an existing session, shall be printed in the Notice Paper on the first day of business; and (

d) shall be placed on the Order Paper for consideration on th e sitting day following the notice. THAT new Sub-Rule 60.(2.5) be added as follows: Filing of notices on a Friday 60.

(2.5) Notwithstanding sub-rule (2.1), a notice of a motion filed on a Friday with the Clerk, prior to acijournment, shall be placed on the Notice Paper on the following Monday. THAT existing Sub-Rule 60.(3) be amended as follows: Opposition Day motions 60.

(3) Notwithstanding sub-rules (1) and (2)(c), two sitting days notice is required for a motion to be debated on an Opposition Day. THAT existing Sub-Rule 64.(2) be amended as follows: To be filed with Clerk 64.

(2) A motion requiring notice shall be filed with the Clerk and, if approved by the Speaker, shall be reproduced as notice on the Notice Paper and shall be placed on the Order Paper as set out in accordance with Rule 60. THAT new Sub-Rule 73.(1.1) be added as follows: Quorum not required during Friday sittings 73.

(1.1) The quorum for a Committee of the Whole House is 10 members. Notwithstanding, when the Committee of Supply is sitting on a Friday, there is no requirement to maintain a quorum. THAT existing Sub-Rule 74.(1) be amended as follows: Time Limit 74.

(1) In each session, not more than 140 hours shall be allowed for the consideration of ways and means and supply resolutions respecting main, interim, capital and supplementary esti mates and for the consideration in Committee of the Whole of the relevant Supply Bills. THAT new Sub-Rules 75.(5) and 75.(6) be added as follows: Committee of Supply Hours 75.

(5) The Committee of Supply may sit on Mondays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays after Routine Proceeding s, and shall sit on Fridays (continuation of Thursday's sittings) from 9:30 a.m. to 12:30 p.m. The sitting hours on Fridays may be varied by unanimous consent of the Committee of Supply, or a

section thereof Business after Committee of Supply Rises on Friday 75.

(6) Where the Committee of Supply sits on a Friday, and after the Committee rises, any motion except a motion to adjourn the House is out of order. THAT new Sub-Rules 75.(12.1), 75.(12.2) and 75.(12.3) be added as follows: Votes in Supply on Fridays 75.

(12.1) Where the Committee of Supply, or a

section of the Committee of Supply, is sitting on a Friday morning, no count-out votes will be held. Count-out Votes on Fridays deferred

18 28 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16 , 200 1 75. (12. 2) The Chairperson of the committee, or a

section thereof, shall defer the vote on the motion until the ne xt sitting of the Committee of Supply in the Chamber where such item will be the firs t order of business. No new departments introduced on Friday 75.

(12.3) During the consideration of estimates on Fridays, the estimates of a new department or entity shall not be commenced. THAT Sub-Rule 75.(13) be repealed and the following substituted: Reports of Committee of Supply 75.

(13) The Chairperson of the Committee of Supply shall report to the House items passed during the consideration of interim, main and capital supply, and shall also re port at the conclusion of the estimates process . all resolutions passed and the concurrence motion. The Chairperson shall report matters of privilege referred by the Committee as well as incidents of grave disorder. THAT new Sub-Rule 75.(19) be added: Consideration of Departmental Estimates 75.

(19) During consideration of departmental estimates , line items may be called for the pur pose of asking questions or moving amend ments, however there is no requirement to pass line items. Departmental resolutions must be called individually for passage. THAT existing Sub-Rule 83.(2) be repealed and the following substituted: 83.

(2) Committee Membership Substitutions Substitutions to the membership of any standing Committee of the House must be provided in writing to the Clerk's Office by the Whips or Whip's designate of each recognized party. 83.

(3) Notice of Substitution Required The Whips or Whip's designate of each recognized party must provide the name(

s) of the Member(

s) resigning from the Standing Committee and the name(

s) of the replacement Member(s) 30 minutes prior to the commencement of the meet ing. 83.

(4) Filling of Vacancies at Committee Meetings If the 30 minute filing requirement for committee substitutions has passed, the committee may fill the vacancy by a majority vote of the Committee. The Whip or Whip's designate, following the completion of the committee mee ting must file official notification with the Clerk's Office of substitutions made during such mee ting. THAT existing Sub-Rule 87.(2) be amended as follows: Concurrence 87. (2) (

a) Concurrence in a report of a Committee may be moved subse quently after the usual notice has been given. {

b) Concurrence in a report of a Committee respecting clause by clause consideration of a Bill shall be moved in conjunction with the Third Reading motion. THAT existing Sub-Rule 101.(4) be repealed and the following substituted: Report Stage 101.

(4) Unless otherwise ordered by the House the Report stage of any Bill reported from any Standing or Special Committee shall not be taken into consideration prior to two sitting days following the presentation of the report of the Committee with respect thereto. THAT existing Sub-Rule 101.(6) be repealed and the following substituted: Notice of Report Stage Amendment 101.

(6) Subject to sub-rule (8), no motion to amend, delete , insert or restore any clause or provision of a Bill shall be entertained on the consideration of the Report Stage of the Bill unless (

a) notice of the motion has been given to the Clerk two sitting days before the Order of the Day for consideration of the Report Stage of the Bill is to be listed on the Order Paper, and (

b) copies of the motion have been distributed in the House on the sitting day before the Order of the Day for consideration of the Report Stage of the Bill is to be listed on the Order Paper.

May 16 , 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 18 29 THAT existing Sub-Rule 101.(7) be repealed. THAT existing Sub-Rules 101.(13) and 101.(14) be repealed and the following substituted: Motion following Report Stage 101.

(13) A concurrence and third reading motion shall be put: (

a) where the proceedings at the report stage amendment stage on any bill have been concluded; or (

b) where it is listed on the order paper under "Concurrence and Third Reading" as set out in su b-rule 22. (2)(

a) Third Reading

(14) Pursuant to su b-rule 101. (13), debate on third reading may proceed. THAT existing Sub-Rule 101.(15) be repealed and the following substituted: Third Reading where no amendment 101.

(15) Two sitting days after a Bill has been reported from a Standing or Special Committee, and no amendment has been proposed at Report Stage, a motion "that the Bill as reported from the Standing or Special Committee, (as amended--if applicable), be concurred in and be now read for a Third Time and passed" may be moved. THAT existing Rule I 02 be amended as follows: Recommittal 102.

Where the Order of the Day for Concurrence and Third Reading is called, any Member desiring to recommit the Bill shall move to discharge the Order and to recommit the Bill; and upon such a motion being resolved in the affirmative, the Member shall give notice of the instructions to be given, but those instructions shall not be taken into consideration before the ne xt sitting of the House.

Your Committee recommends adoption of the following simplified language for Royal Assents: Financial Bills Speaker says: Your Honour, The Legislative Assem bly of Manitoba asks Your Honour to accept the following Bills: Clerk replies: In Her Majesty's name, the Lieutenant Governor thanks the Legislative Assem bly, and assents to these Bills Non-Financial Bills Speaker says: Your Honour. At this sitting, the Legislative Assem bly has passed certain Bills that I ask Your Honour to give assent to. Clerk replies: In Her Majesty's name, His Honour assents to these Bills.

Your Committee recommends adoption of the following simplified language for Petitions: TO THE LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA: These are the reasons for this petition : (or: The background to this petition is as follows:) (Briefly summarize the problem or grievance and any necessary background information) We petition the Legislative Assem bly of Manitoba as follows: (Set out the action the Legislative Assem bly is being asked to take or not take) (Please print) Name Address Signature SAMPLE PETITION TO THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA: These are the reasons for this petition: [or: The background to this petition is as follows:] 1.

Many LPNs have been eliminated from most acute care facilities in Manitoba, including the St. Boniface,

18 30 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16 , 200 1 Health Sciences Centre , Seven Oaks, Concordia and Victoria Hospitals. 2. The LPNs of this province are valuable mem bers of the health care system , providing pro-fissional, competent, skilled and cost effective services. 3. Staffing cuts will only result in declining quality of health care and potentially tragic outcomes. 4. It will not be long before the negative results of this shortcut effort are realized - just as they were in Alb erta. 5. The elimination of LPNs in Manitoba's health care facilities will lead to higher costs and poorer patient care.

We petition the Legislative Assem bly of Manitoba as follows: 1. We request the Minister of Health to consider stopping the elimination of LPNs from the staffing complement in our health care facilities . 2.

We request the Minister of Health to recognize the value and dedicated service of LPNs across the province. (Please print) Name Address Signature THAT Appendices A, AI , B, C and D be deleted and replaced with the following: APPENDIX A MODEL PETITION TO THE LEGISLAT IVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA: These are the reasons for this petition : (or: The background to this petition is as follows:) (Briefly summarize the problem or grievance and any necessary background information) We petition the Legislative Assem bly of Manitoba as follows: (Set out the action the Legislative Assem bly is being asked to take or not take) (Please print) Name Address Signature NOTE: A minimum of three signatures are required for the sufficient execution of the petition.

APPENDIX A-1 NOTICE OF A PETITION FOR A PRIVATE BILL This is notice to the public that __________________________ (name of the petitioner) will present a petition for a private bill to the Legislative Assembly at this or the next session of the Legislature. The private bill will do the following: (in the space below, describe the bill, state what it is intended to do and specifY any exceptional provisions that the petitioner proposes to include in the bill)

May 16 , 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 18 31 Date Signature of the petitioner or (petitioner's lawyer) Address if the petitioner or the (petitioner's lawyer) APPENDIXB NOTICE OF A VACANCY IN THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY To the Lieutenant Governor in Council: 1. In acc ordance with

section 25 of The Legislative Assem bly Act, this is notice of a vacancy in the electoral division of (name of electoral division). 2. The member who is vacating the seat is: 3. The reason for the vacancy is: 4. We ask you to pass an Order-in-Council to fill the vacancy. The two members of the Legislative Assembly giving this notice are: Signature of member Signature of member NOTE:

Section 25 of The Legislative Assembly Act states: Notice of vacancy caused in any other way than by resignation 25 Subject to

section 71 of The Controverted Elections Act, in any case of a vacancy in the representation of an electoral division created in any other way than by resignation, any two members of the Legislative Assembly may give notice of the vacancy to the Lieutenant Governor in Council and request the passing of an order in council for the filling of the vacancy under The Election Act.

APPEND/XC RESIGNATION OF A MEMBER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY To the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly: I, (name of member) intend to resign my seat in the Legislative Assembly for the electoral division of ____________ _ (name of electoral division }. Date Signature of the member Two witnesses are needed: Signature of first witness Signature of second Witness NOTE:

Section 22 of The Legislative Assembly Act states: Resignation of member 22 Any member of the Legislative Assembly may resign his seat, (

a) by giving, in his place in the assembly, notice of his intention to resign, in which case, after the notice has been entered by the clerk of the assembly in the journals, the seat of the member thereupon becomes vacant: or (

b) by addressing and causing to be delivered to the Speaker a declaration of his intention to resign, made in writing under his hand before two witnesses, which declaration may be so made and delivered either before or during a session of the Legislature, or in the interval between two sessions, and upon receipt thereof by the Speaker the seat of the member thereupon becomes vacant. Your Committee agreed to amend the wording for resolving into the Committee of Supply to read: "! move that the House resolve into the Committee of Supply." Your Committee agreed that the amendments to the Rules, Orders and Forms of Proceedings,

18 32 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16 , 200 1 would be in force until March 31, 2002, with the Rules Committee to meet prior to expiration of this period. Your Committee agreed that the Clerk be authorized to re-number the Rules, Orders and Forms of Proceedings of the Legislative Assem bly. Your Committee agreed that the staff of the Clerk's Office be authorized to produce revised rules incorporating all amendments, additions and deletions.

Your Committee agreed that the amendments to the Rules, Orders and Forms of Proceedings of the Legislative Assem bly of Manitoba would come into force on the day the report of the committee was concurred in the House. Mr. Santos: move, seconded by the honourable Member for Transcona (Mr. Reid), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. Committee of Supply Mr. Conrad Santos (Chairperson): Mr. Speaker, the Comm ittee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable Member for The Maples (Mr.

Aglugub ) , that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS A First Report on French Language Services, 1999-2000 Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister responsible for French Language Services): Monsieur le president, j'ai le plaisir de deposer devant l'Assemblee le rapport intitule: Un premier rapport sur les services en langue fran�aise 19 99-2000. Translation Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to table in the House the report entitled A First Report on French Language Services 1999-2000. English Mr.

Speaker, it is my pleasure to table in the House A First Report on French Language Services 19 99-2000. La publication de ce premier rapport sur les services en fran�ais decoule du Rapport et recommandations sur les services en fran�ais au sein du gouvemement du Manitoba: Avant toute chose, le bons sens, prepare par le juge Richard Cha rtier en mai 19 98. Translation The publication of this first report on French Language Services stems from the Report and Recommendations on French Language Services within the Government of Manitoba: Ab ove Al l, Common Sense, prepared by Judge Richard Chartier in May 1998. Mr.

Speaker: Order. Is the honourable member tabling it or making a ministerial statement? Mr. Selinger: It is a ministerial statement and I am tabling the report. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member have copies for the Opposition critics? [interJection] I have to wait until they are distributed to the critics before the honourable member makes his ministerial statement. The honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Seli nger) on the ministerial statement. Mr. Selinger: The publishing of this first report stems from Judge Richard Char tier's Report and Recommendations on French Language Servic es

May 16 , 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 18 33 within the Government of Manitoba: Above All, Common Sense, prepared in May 19 98. Recommendation No. 28 proposed that the French Language Services Secretariat produce an annual report listing the advances made in the implementation of the French Language Services policy, the obstacles that were encountered and how they were overcome. Mr. Speaker, the goal of our Government is to move from common-sense recommendations to practical solutions.

The Chartier report pro vided a reasonable framework for the eff ective implementation of quality services in French by designated administrative bodies. Grace aux recommandations du juge Chartier et a diverses mesures prises par les responsables de !'a pplication de Ia politique des services en langue fran(j:aise, Ia prestation de ces services continue a s'ameliorer. Les eff orts dans ce domaine sont concentres sur l'offre active de services dans les deux langues officielles Ia ou est concentree Ia population francophone.

Translation Thanks to Judge Chartier's recommenda tions and to various measures taken by those responsible for the application of the policy on French language services, the delivery of these services continues to im prove. Efforts in this area are focused on active offer of services in the two official languages where the Franco phone population is concentrate d. English As a result of Judge Chartier's recom mendations and of various actions by those responsible for the implementation of the French Language Services policy, there are ongoing improvements in the delivery of these services.

The focus is being placed on actively off ering services in both official languages where the French-speaking population is concentrated. While there is still much work to be done, this report's one-year snapshot, compared to the French language picture one generation ago, can attest to a definitive evolution in the provision of services to Manitoba's offi cial language com munity living in a minority situation. To all those leaders and service providers within the designated administrative bodies who are ensuring an active offer of quality French language services I express my sincere appreci ation.

Je tiens egalement a remercier les dirigeants et les membres de notre communaute franco manitobaine qui participent a des projets vi sant a contribuer au developpement de leur com munaute, assurant ainsi !'exis tence de cette composante importante de notre societe. Translation I would also like to thank the leaders and members of our Franco-Manitoban community who are participating in projects concerned with contributing to the development of their com munity, thereb y ensuring the existence of this important component of our society.

English I also thank the leaders and members of our Franco-Manitoban community who are involved in initiatives that contribute to the development of that community and that ensure its existence as an important component of our society. This report, Mr. Speaker, covers the last 10 years, so I would like to take the opportunity to thank the members opposite for their contri bution to the evolution of these services over that decade. Thank you. Mr. Denis Rocan (Carman): Monsieur le president, je suis tres heureux cet apres-midi de me lever pour repondre au sujet que le minis tre des Finance (M.

Sel inger) vient de presenter en chambre. Nous comme Francophones sommes tres heureux et contents que Monsieur le juge Chartier a eu !'occasion de presenter son rapport. Le gouvernement Filmon en 19 98 a mis en place le juge Chartier pour regarder les services et faire des recommandations sur les services en

18 34 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16 , 200 1 langue fran�aise. Je suis tres heureux d'avoir fait

partie de ce gouvemement et �a me fait grand plaisir de dire que le gouvemement de Monsieur Doer a continue Ia sagesse des recommandations du juge Chartier. Et aujourd'hui nous attendons de voir dans le rapport comment ils ont ameliore a partir du rapport du juge Chartier. De notre part, membres de !'opposition et surtout de Ia communaute francophone, on remercie le ministre des Finance d'avoir soumis aujourd'hui le rapport. Merci, Monsieur le president. Translation Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to rise this afternoon to respond on the su bject that the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Selinger) has just presented in the House. As Francophones, we are very happy that Judge Chartier had the opportunity to present this report. In 1998, the Filmon government appointed Judge Chartier to examine and to make recommendations about French language services . I am very glad to have been part of that government, and it gives me great pleasure to say that Mr. Doer's government has pursued the wisdom of Judge Chartier's recommendations. And today we expect to see in the report how they have made improvements on the basis of Judge Chartier's report.

We as mem bers of the Opposition and particularly of the Francophone community thank the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) for having tabled this report today. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): I ask for leave to speak on the minister's statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave? [Agreed] Mr. Gerrard: Monsieur le president, je suis heureux que le depute de Saint-Boniface nous a donne ce rapport, Un premier rapport sur les services en langue fran�aise, qui decoule du Rapport et recommandations sur les services en fran�ais au sein du gouvemement du Manitoba.

Je suis heureux parce que c'est tres important que nous ayons cet rapport. C'est important parce que ce sur quoi on peut faire un rapport, ce qu'on mesure, c'est ce qu'on pe ut ameliorer. C'est tres important, pour faciliter une amelioration des services en langue fran�aise au Manitoba, que nous ayons ce rapport, afin d'avancer dans l'avenir. Merci. Translation Mr. Speaker, I am pleased that the mem ber for St. Boniface has provided this report to us. A First Report on French Language Services, following upon the Report and Recommenda tions on French Language Services within the Government of Manitoba.

I am pleased because it is very important that we have this report. It is important because what can be reported upon, what is measured, is what can be improved. It is very important in order to facilitate an improvement of French language services in Manitoba, that we have this report so as to make advances in the future. Thank you. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table the Manitoba Human Rights Commission report on the Discriminatory Busi ness Practices Act. Hon. Jean Friesen (Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): Mr.

Speaker, I a m pleased to table the Supplementary Inf ormation for the Departmental Expenditure Estimates for Intergovernmental Affairs. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 26- The Winnipeg Commodity Exchange Restructuring Act Hon. Scott Smith (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Education, Training and Youth (Mr. Caldwell), that leave be given to introduce Bill 26, The Winnipeg Commodit y Exchange Restructuring Act (Loi sur Ia reorganisation de Ia Bourse des marchandises de Winnipeg), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion presented. Mr.

Smith: Mr. Speaker, The Winnipeg Commod ity Exchange was established by the

May 16 , 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 18 35 Winnipeg Commodity Exchange Act as a corporation without share capital. This bill enables the Winnipeg Commodity Exchange, with the approval of special resolution of its members, to continue under The Corporations Act as a corporation with share capital. When it does, the corporation's members will become its shareholders and the Commodity Exchange Act will be repealed. Motion agreed to. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Winnipeg Regional Health Authority Pan Am Clinic-Advice Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, the Government's own guidelines state that the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority, after developing a sound business case, must recommend to the Govern ment which Manitoba clinic should be bought and converted into a non-profit model. Can the Premier explain today why he disregarded those guidelines and why he ignored the advice of departmental staff who recommended against the deal and instead ordered the WRHA to begin discussions to purchase the Pan Am Clinic? Bon. Gary Doer (Premier): The Leader of the Opposition uses the term "ordered discussions" and "bought" interchangeably.

The issue of due diligence, the PricewaterhouseCoopers report that indicated a $1. 2 million benefit to the public, which said that this was a fair deal for the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority, which raised some strengths in terms of doubling the surgeries and some weaknesses particularly in information, that report has been referred back to the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority. Pan Am Clinic Purchase-Business Plan Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): The Premier disregarded his own guidelines, and he disregarded the advice of his staff.

Could the Premier please explain why he did not have a cost-benefit analysis done, why he did not explore all other options to increase surgeries, and why he did not insist on seeing a business plan before agr eeing to purchase the Pan Am Clinic? Bon. Gary Doer (Premier): A couple of weeks ago the member opposite wanted us to buy the Godley clinic. On the basis of a question in the Legislature they were urging us to buy it. Perhaps he should be a bit more consistent. I know that might be very difficult for members opposite. The Government did ask for an external review of the proposal.

The external review was made public. The PricewaterhouseCoopers report indicated a $1. 2 million benefit. It also indicated increases in surgeries. It also indicated, and its recommendation to the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority was, that this was a fair agreement for the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority. That has been referred back to the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority. Private Health Clinics Government Takeover Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): The Premier had no business plan. He did no cost-benefit analysis, and he did not explore options to increase surgeries.

Could the Premier please tell all Manitobans when his Government will be taking over other publicly funded private clinics and at what cost to the taxpayers? Bon.

Gary Doer (Premier): Unlike members opposite who on the one hand had approved payments for the clinic in question, approved the authority for Workers Compensation and MPI patients to go there and on the other hand capped the number of surgeries, we do not have that kind of ideologically extreme view when it comes to patient services. * (13 :50) When we approved the capital expenditures that were tendered in 19 99 for the Boundary Trails hospital and adjusted some of the technology and diagnostic tests, it was based on the best patient care.

When we approved a decision to increase capital support for the Victoria Hospital to approve a proposal that had come forward to the Government-year after year it had been rejected by members opposite-when we had approved the authority to keep an election promise that was made six times by

18 36 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16 , 200 1 members opposite for the Brandon General Hospital and cancelled six times, it was on the basis of patient care. Mr. Speaker, we will not be buying hospitals or selling hospitals on the basis of rhetoric on the Legislature floor. I note, Mr. Speaker, that in the Estimates of the Executive Council, the Leader of the Opposition said he was opposed to private hospitals, and we are making decisions with the proper information on the basis of the benefits to the public. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Of ficial Opposition, on a new question.

Pan Am Clinic Purchase-Additional Expenses Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Yes, Mr. Speaker, on a new question. Cle arly, the Premier (Mr. Doer) is rambling but not answering the question, so I would want to ask the Premier in light of his hidden agenda to waste millions of taxpayers' dollars to convert a private clinic to a non-profit clinic, and really the only reason we are doing this is to satisfy his ideology. He should be spending precious dollars to improve the health care system for all Manitobans rather than what he has done.

For example, aside from the $7.3 million that he is wasting on the Pan Am Clinic to provide a $700,000 bonus to his friends, can he please tell Manitobans how many additional taxpayers' dollars will be spent on needed technology improvements and upgrades to resurface the roof, to complete needed mechanical repairs and to complete needed electrical repairs? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, for the first time since I have been in the Legislature, a due diligence document by Pricewaterhouse was tabled in this Legislature.

An independent analysis by a third party was tabled in this Legislature that reviewed all of the pluses and minuses of the particular agreement to which the member is referring. The independent third party Pricewaterhouse report indicated a profit of $1. 2 million over five years, and indicates increased service and increased ability to offer service, which is something I think Manitobans are looking for. Members opposite entered contracts with private institutions, and capped those contracts, Mr. Speaker.

We are trying a made-in-Manitoba approach that will see the benefits of the private system providing more services into the public system. Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, I hope that the Premier (Mr. Doer) does not have anything to hide, so I will refer my question to the Premier. Aside from providing bonuses and wasting precious taxpayers' dollars to buy the Pan Am Clinic bricks and mortar, the Premier's deal is going to leave taxpayers on the hook for many more expenses, all to satisfy the Premier's ideology.

On top of the $7.3 million being wasted on Pan Am bricks and mortar, on top of the extra money needed for upgrading tech nology upgrades, mechanical and electrical upgrades in the Pan Am Clinic, I ask the Premier: Could he confirm if Manitoba tax payers are also now on the hook to pay for the Pan Am's $52,000 in annual taxes? * (13: 55) Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, the due diligence that was provided to the public very clearly indicated that there would be a benefit and that it was a fair deal both to the WRHA and to the province. Members opposite tried one tack.

They had entered into contracts with private clinics to the tune of $6 million to provide services, Mr. Speaker. We are trying a different approach that would meld some of the advantages of the private sector into the public sector. I refer members opposite to a report done by an agency set up by members opposite, the Manitoba Centre for Health Policy and Evaluation that indicated running private sector clinics beside public clinics increased waiting lists in Manitoba and in Alberta. Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, again rambling and no answers. I will try one more time to ask the Premier.

On top of the $7.3 million for the Pan

May 16 , 200 1 LEGISL ATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 18 37 Am bricks and mortar and on top of the extra money that is needed for upgrading electrical and mechanical equipment, obviously they have to apparently resurface the roof. Could the Premier please tell all Manitobans what addi tional costs the taxpayers are going to be on? Are they under operating costs that the Premier will have to pay on operating costs for Manitoba? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Well, Mr. Speaker, the member asks questions about taxes.

He will probably know there are some very, very interesting examples of changes in tax consider ations based on decisions to either make an organization non-profit or the issue of having a private corporate issue. Let me deal with three or four examples in this House. Obviously a non profit health care clinic is different from a profit health care centre when it comes to purposes of tax consideration.

Secondly, when Centra Gas was purchased by the former government and received a $65- million good-wi ll payment by the former government, they entered into a secret agreement to require the consumers of natural gas to pay income taxes and other taxes as part of a secret deal they made by a memorandum of agreement with the former Cabinet and the Hydro corporation. We cancelled that tax. We cancelled that in government because that was an extra burden onto the consumers of gas with that purchase. Mr.

Speaker, when the members opposite made an agreement to have a private frozen food facility, they- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: So, Mr. Speaker, when the former government developed the frozen food complex, the audited report- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: When the publicly administered food system was established as a private company, although I 00% taxpayer-paid, the former government did not include a provision and a payment of over $1 million to the federal government to pay the GST for food served in hospitals in Manitoba.

Yes, there are a number of exa mples. The telephone system in this Chamber. The former Premier of this province said we would pay less for taxes under a private company for purposes of income tax and corporate taxes for the consumers. That was patently wrong, Mr. Speaker. People have had three raises of their prices to pay for the price increases due to tax consideration. So the point of the- * (1 4:00) Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, Beauchesne's 417 : Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate. I understand the leaders have latitude, but I think there is a portion of Beauchesne's and that is that provoking debate can be extended a little bit, but the First Minister is going way beyond. We are talking about the Pan Am Clinic. The First Minister is attempting to bring in an entire history from the past. We are dealing with today, and we would like to know about the Pan Am Clinic. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, it is ironic, because the Opposition has been up asking questions, demanding answers, and that is exactly what they are getting. Now they get up to interrupt and try and shut the Premier down. Furthermore, the answer has been dealing with the issue of taxation on these kinds of initiatives. Further, leaders' latitude does prevail. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, as Speaker I have an obligation to

18 38 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16 , 200 1 enforce the rules to the best of my ability, but the House alone has the ultimate authority to determine these practices. The Manitoba practice that I understand is that leaders' latitude applies to leaders. I am following the Manitoba practice as I interpret it. If there is enforcement that the House leaders agree upon, that they want me to enforce, I would welcome that, because I seek direction from the House leaders in what it is they would like me to enforce when it comes to leaders' latitude.

Is the Leader of the Of ficial Opposition, when rising on question No. 2, 3 or 4, directing it to a government minister? Does that leader now become not a leader? If the Opposition member raises a question to the Government and the First Minister answers it, is the First Minister no longer a leader? Is there a one-minute time limit? Is there a two-minute time limit? Is there a three-minute time limit? I ask direction from the House leaders. Please meet and give me directions on what you want me to enforce, because you all know, as the Speaker, I am not the master of the House.

As Speaker, I am but a servant of the House, but I need to know what you ask me to enforce. So I ask the House leaders to get together with me or to get together on their own and please give me some direction. Until then, I have to rule that it is not a point of order because of the Manitoba practice that allows for leaders' latitude. Point of Order Mr. Laurendeau: Mr. Speaker, I do believe that what I was giving you was direction. I do believe I do have a point of order, and I was rising on that point of order because the honourable minister was provoking debate. I do not believe that the latitude goes that far.

Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the question was dealing with taxes and public versus private enterprises that have been dealt with, and I was answering a number of issues of tax policy in this Legislature. I think it was very specific to the question raised. If it deals with a lot of decisions made by previous governments and the precedents that have been established, we do not want a situation in this House when we say when something becomes a private company that it will pay Jess taxes. I think that is a disservice to the public. Mr.

Speaker: On the new point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, when I asked for directions from the House leaders, that is the direction that I hope to receive from a joint agreement by both House leaders. Give me some direction in what you would like me to enforce, because the Manitoba practices have always been left up to the Speaker of the day. I want direction on what you, the House, want me to enforce. Once you give me that instruction, I would be more than happy to enforce whatever you request of me. Until then, because of my

interpretation of leaders' latitude, I have to rule that there is no point of order because of Manitoba practices pertaining to leaders' latitude. So I ask you to please meet and give me some directions. The honourable Of ficial Opposition House Leader, on a new point of order. Mr. Laurendeau: No. Regrettably, Mr. Speaker, I must challenge your ruling. Mr. Speaker: The ruling of the Chair has been challenged. Voice Vote Mr. Speaker: All those in support of sustaining the ruling, say yea. Some Honourable Members: Yea. Mr. Speaker: All those opposed to sustaining the ruling, say nay. Some Honourable Members: Nay.

Mr. Speaker: In my opinion, the Yeas have it. Mr. Laurendeau: On division, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: On division. * * * Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, there are three, therefore, policies on taxation. There is the one

May 16, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1 839 policy on public non-profit that is not subject to taxation. There is a second policy on public enterprises that become private, like the telephone system, that are subject to taxes, and then there is the third case where there was a secret deal to take a private company, make it public non-profit and then pay the equivalent income taxes that would be levied on the consumers with the gas company. Those are the three policies in place. We have cancelled one, and we are keeping the other two in place, as we should. Mr.

Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Of ficial Opposition, on a new question. Purchase-Justification Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): On a new question, Mr. Speaker. The Premier has misled Manitobans saying his bad deal will cost $7.3 million, because, in reality, taxpayers will now have to pay for the centre's operating costs, for needed repairs, and also to resurface the roof.

Considering the $7.3 million he is wasting to buy the Pan Am Clinic would have benefited Manitoba seniors, for example, by paying for over 17 000 day surgeries, I would ask the Premier to explain why, rather than spend $7.3 million to buy the Pan Am bricks and mortar, why he did not make use of the unused capacity in the system right now and simply increase the surgeries the Pan Am and other facilities could perform. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, I do not think the member has made and is aware of the distinction between a one time capital payment, of which we do hundreds of millions of dollars in health care-$7 million at Seven Oaks, $50 million at Brandon Hospital, $100 million-plus at Health Sciences Centre, and ongoing operating dollars, and that is the first point. So the member is quite mixing up the issue. The second point is the plan adopted by his party was to pay private clinics to provide a service.

It is very clear that private clinics coming into provinces is a major dif ficulty, because if every private clinic comes in and every private hospital comes in and if we are forced to pay for every single one, Mr. Speaker, we will have difficulty in our system. So we are trying to develop a made-in-Manitoba solution that takes the private advantages and puts them in the public system.

Thirdly and fourthly, I am advised that the cost of the improvements to the building, deemed necessary by the Pricewaterhouse Coopers report, were deducted from the final sale price of Pan Am. * (14:10 ) Purchase-Doctor Hildahl's Interests Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, once again, the Premier (Mr. Doer) simply had the option of increasing the number of surgeries at the Pan Am and other facilities, but instead he chose to spend $7.3 million on his friends and his ideology, rather than improve health care services for Manitobans. So I ask the Premier: Could he explain why Dr.

Wayne Hildahl is allowed to keep a private interest in the X-ray business at the soon-to-be publicly owned Pan Am Clinic, and could he indicate how much money Doctor Hildahf makes from that business? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, as we explained at the press conference when we announced in principle the deal, we are operating this in a fashion that would combine the efficiencies of the private system with the public system. We indicated that private operations would continue at that clinic.

I am also advised that Doctor Hildahl will deduct any money he makes from the operations, as I understand it, from the salary he is going to be paid as director of the clinic. Thirdly, I think that it is very inappropriate of the member opposite to deem the payments made to the shareholders of that facility which was a retention matter in order to keep surgeons here, as inappropriate fashion. Purchase-Non-compete Agreements Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): I appreciate the attempt by the Minister of Health but I would ask the question

18 40 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16 , 200 1 to the Premier (Mr. Doer). Not only is the Premier handing out $700,000 of taxpayers' money as a bonus to his friends but he is also cutting other deals as well. Could the Premier please explain why Pan Am doctors, why the doctors in that clinic, are forced to sign a five year non-compete agreement to prevent them from practising at other Manitoba facilities? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): We have just seen the CIHI report in this Chamber which showed when the members opposite were in power we lost doctors, net loss of doctors.

We are trying to keep doctors in this province. I am surprised that members opposite are not standing up and clammering at their own-why we would not do everything possible to keep doctors here. That is why there was a retention factor built into this. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne 417: Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate. If the minister was listening he might have heard that the question was about the non-competition agreement that was signed by the First Minister (Mr. Doer). Mr.

Speaker: The honourable Minister of Health, on the same point of order. Mr. Chomiak: The question was with respect to doctors and keeping doctors in the province of Manitoba. I am pointing out that we are doing everything in our power to reverse policies of the former government to keep doctors in this province. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Of ficial Opposition House Leader, obviously there is a difference in

interpretation of the question, so I would have to rule that it is a dispute over the facts at this point. *** Mr. Chomiak: As I indicated in the first place, one of the reasons for moving down this direction was advice from doctor after doctor who wanted to do surgeries in day facilities, which is the way that health care is going, and our attempt to adapt the system to that. Even Doctor Hildahl, who appeared on a campaign brochure for the Tory party and who was funded by the Tories when they were in a contractual relationship, recognized that and put this pro posal forward. Mr.

Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Of ficial Opposition on a new question? The Maples Surgical Centre Workers Compensation Cases Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, just as the Manitoba Medical Association president, Dr. Alex Chochinov, said, the Doer government's ide ology is preventing them from looking at other systems like those in Europe. His ideology is getting in the way of improving health services for Manitobans. Will the Premier (Mr.

Doer) please explain to Manitobans why he insists The Maples Surgical Centre operate within such a narrow scope by refusing the facility to treat cases ref erred by the Workers Compensation Board? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, the member is wrong in his factual assertion. We have a public system.

We have portions of a private system, and we are attempting to meld the two systems together and try to see if we can eff ect some efficiencies and get better care to patients, because studies done in Manitoba by the Manitoba Centre for Health Policy and Evaluation demonstrate that when you run private against public, the waiting lists go up and the costs go up. Those are Manitoba studies. Mr.

Speaker, with reference to the WCB, The Maples clinic-which members opposite wanted us to fund sight unseen when it had not even opened; I wonder what members' moti vation was in that regard-has the option to do the kinds of services it wants like any other private clinic. Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, I would be somewhat surprised if, under consultation, the doctors' recommendations to improve health care

May 16 , 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 18 41 is to say: Buy our building. That is all you have to do. That will improve it. Just buy the building. Mr. Speaker, the Premier (Mr. Doer) is going to increase pressure on the rest of the health system by forbidding WCB from sending cases to the new facility. Could the Premier please indicate if his Government has informed WCB that The Maples Surgical Centre is not a hospital, as he incorrectly stated before, and has his Government indicated to WCB that they can in fact refer clients to this facility for speedy treatment? Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, from what I understand, Doctor Godley came into Manitoba and told, both publicly and otherwise, that he had a contract with WCB . I understand that the WCB then wrote to Doctor Godley and said you do not have a contract with WCB . If physicians want to refer patients, they have always had that option in Manitoba. They continue to have that option in Manitoba. What I want to say, Mr. Speaker, is Doctor Godley came and said he was going to operate a private hospital. It has never been the policy of the people of Manitoba to allow private hospitals.

I am sorry that members opposite have changed the former position they had. We are not going to permit private hospitals, which is not the way Manitoba goes. Private Health Clinics Overnight Beds Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, certainly if the Minister of Health would refer to the current legislation he would know full well it is not a private hospital. It is clear in this eff ort that the Premier's ideology is getting in the way of responsible government, and it could put patients' safety at risk. For a change they should try to put patients before politics.

Considering existing legislation allows for a private clinic to have up to four overnight beds which would ensure the safety of the patients. I understand The Maples Surgical Centre has three beds in the event that a patient may require a longer stay. Could the Premier please explain why he is going to be implementing legislation that would stop the clinic from having a few beds? Is he so opposed to overnight stays that he would endanger the safety of patients and put his ideology first? * (14:20) Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, we are still waiting for a retraction from the Leader of the Opposition about $50 million in capital from the Crocus Fund guaranteed by the province. We are still waiting for a retraction from the members opposite that the Crocus Fund was an illegal investment. When it comes to a balanced approach, the only example of extre mism is members opposite with their surrogate representation from the doctor from British Columbia to establish a profit hospital here in Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker, I might point out, the Investment Dealers Association of Canada has just come out and said we have had the strongest employment growth in 15 years in the first year in office. The investment dealers of Canada have said Manitoba's disposable income will be boosted for a second consecutive year because of education property tax credits, as well as lowered income taxes and debt repayment the second best in Canada. That is a balanced approach, Mr. Speaker. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Leader of the Of ficial Opposition, on a new question. St.

Boniface Hospital Operating Rooms-Summer Closures Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I know that that kind of deflection might earn applause from that side, but what we are talking about is patients, the safety of patients in the health care system. The Premier (Mr. Doer) is drowning in his own words. He is drowning in a sea of broken promises, and he will continue to fail Mani tobans because, as his Minister of Health said, and we all heard it, he was quoted: I have no plan for health care, no plan whatsoever for health care.

Could the Premier please confirm that, while he has made the choice to waste millions of

18 42 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16 , 200 1 taxpayers' dollars on the Pan Am Clinic for purely ideological reasons, the St. Bonif ace Hospital is looking at closing operating rooms for up to seven weeks this summer? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, just let me put some facts on the record. Every year, over every summer, all of the hospitals in Manitoba and Winnipeg have historically done that, closed down some of their facilities over the summertime. That is a normal occurrence that occurs every summer.

Secondly, one of the reasons that we are taking new initiatives to provide day surgeries is to continue to increase the volume, and that is what we will do; we will increase the volume provided to our services that provides the patient care to all Manitobans. Thirdly, during the tenure of members' term in office, they closed permanently 14 00 acute care beds. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. It is very, very difficult to hear. It is really difficult to hear, and I am sure we all want to hear the questions, and we all want to hear the answers.

I would ask the co operation of all honourable members, please. Pan Am Clinic Purchase-Cancellation Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, this Government's decision to purchase the Pan Am deal was a bad decision. It was not done for the sake of improving patient care, but instead it was done for ideological reasons, and now other health care services are suffering as a result.

Since the Premier indicated that the Pan Am deal has not yet been finalized, will he do the right thing and walk away, just as he had the courage to do when he walked away from the fact that MPI was going to fund universities? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, have heard a lot of rhetoric from members opposite. We have provided an independent, external financial review conducted by PricewaterhouseCoopers. We have made that public. It indicates the recommendation to Government, and the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority says that there will be a benefit of $1. 2 million for the purchase of the facility.

The member opposite made an allegation. The Minister of Health (Mr. Chomia

k) has clarified the inaccuracies of the allegations on the issue of costs. Thirdly, on patient care, the PricewaterhouseCoopers report indicates that there will be a doubling of the number of surgeries at that clinic. I can listen to the Leader of the Opposition and members opposite and the public. You know, this report has gone back to the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority and it basically says there is a net benefit (

a) on the financial side, and (

b) on the patient side. The only ones that do not want us to proceed on the basis of ideology, because certainly we are not going out and buying every private clinic in Manitoba, the only ones that do not want us to proceed on the basis of ideology are the ideological- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: The only ideological purchase that has been suggested in this House has been members opposite that seem to be the surrogate for the doctor from Vancouver, and purchase his private, profit clinic.

The bottom line is we will not make a decision that is not better for patients and better for the Treasury on health care in terms of being cost-effective. Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, the Premier disregarded his own government guidelines. He disregarded the Health Department's staff who recommended against the deal. He did not have a business plan; he did not do a cost-benefit analysis; he did not explore all other options to increase surgeries. He wasted taxpayers' dollars to provide bonuses and to buy bricks and mortar.

He has left taxpayers on the hook for millions more to pay for needed technology and upgrades, mechanical and electrical repairs, to replace the roof and to cover annual operating costs. He has left taxpayers on the hook for $52,000 in tax revenue. He is increasing pressure on the health care system by ref using to allow

May 16 , 200 1 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 18 43 WCB to refer clients to The Maples Surgical Centre, and he is forcing doctors to sign a non compete confidence agreement to prevent them from working at other health care facilities. He is putting patient safety at risk with his ideo logically driven legislation. He continues to allow his ideology to be put in front of patients, and he will continue to fail Manitobans because he has no plan or no grand scheme for health care. Will the Premier- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Murray: Once again, Mr.

Speaker, it is very clear that members opposite find the health care system that we find ourselves in, they find it very humorous. Everything is a joke to them. It is not a joke to those patients that are still in the hallways. Will the Premier do the right thing and will he walk away from the Pan Am deal? Will he ensure that The Maples Surgical Centre can help reduce the pressure on our health care system? Will he instruct his Minister of Health (Mr. Chomia

k) to please have a plan for health care? * (14:30) Mr. Doer: I can deal with about three or four of the seventeen points of rhetoric that were raised by the leader. One, Mr. Speaker, the benefit as identified by PricewaterhouseCoopers is a $1 .2-million benefit to the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority. They have not brought any contrary information to this Chamber to contradict the independent financial review that was conducted for due diligence.

Secondly, doctors, including Doctor Post!, that know a lot about patient care-we have a lot of respect for Doctor Post) in his ability to evaluate patient care-have confirmed what the outside review said, that there will be a net benefit to patients. Thirdly, the member opposite talks about a non-profit facility. We cancelled the GST pay ment that was made to the profit facility that was made under frozen food, over a million dollars a year. Fourthly, Mr.

Speaker, the former user fees and parts of the medical clinic that were paid by some of the 49 000 patients that went to that facility, on top of the $1 .2-million benefit, will not be a tax on the people or patients that go there, probably a much more signifi cant factor for, quote, patient care, that the Leader of the Opposition is alleging. Fifthly, the Minister of Health did come forward with the plan. Many parts of the plan were applauded at the MMA. We have a plan now to increase the number of doctors at the medical school.

We have a plan to accredit foreign doctors that was never implemented by members opposite. We have a plan to cancel the frozen food contract, which the doctors applauded. We have a plan to have more nurses in training and more nurses on the ground floor. We have announced eight new CAT scans. We have a lot of work ahead of us, but we have a plan that puts patients first, not The Maples clinic first. Mr. Speaker: Order. Time for Oral Questions has expired. Speaker's Ruling Mr. Speaker: I have a ruling for the House. During Oral Questions on May 10 , 200 1, the honourable Of ficial Opposition House Leader (Mr.

Laurendeau) raised a point of order concerning the comments spoken by the honourable Min ister of Health (Mr. Chomia

k) while responding to a question. The honourable Of ficial Opposition House Leader contended that the remarks were a personal attack against the honourable Member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard). The honourable Government House Leader (Mr. Mackintosh) also spoke to the same point of order. I took the matter under advisement in order to peruse the record and to consult the procedural authorities. On page 1618 of Hansard, the honourable Minister of Health is recorded as saying "Mr.

Speaker, this is far more complex than I think the member opposite probably understands with respect to this particular issue." Based on these comments, I would rule that there is no point of order. The honourable Minister of Health did not

18 44 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16 , 200 1 make a reference regarding the capability of the honourable member for River Heights to understand the issue but instead noted the complexity of the matter. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Stonewall Quarry Choristers Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): On Sunday, May 6, I had the pleasure of attending a musical dinner theatre presented by the Stonewall Quarry Choristers at the Stonewall Legion Hall. This special event ran for five evenings and served food provided by the Stonewall Legion ladies and was assisted by the Stonewall Lions Club.

These wonderful evenings were conducted as a fundraiser for several worthy causes in the community. Most of the proceeds went towards the southwest palliative care. However, some of the profits were also directed towards organi zations dedicated to implementing community projects such as the Stonewall Legion, the Stonewall Lions, the Masons, the Wish Founda tion, and FACT. Mr. Speaker, it was an honour to be able to participate in such a worthwhile cause.

The enormous efforts required to put on such an event serve as a reminder of the strong community spirit and the invaluable volunteerism that blesses the community of Stonewall. With so many different organizations involved in arranging this event, it is often difficult to recognize everyone who helped make it possible. However, I would like especially to thank the Quarry Chori sters for the time and effort that they spent in preparing for this event. It was truly a wonder ful performance.

Also, a special thanks to Marie Cosens who is the wif e of the former Minister of Education and former MLA for Gimli, Keith Cosens, and the founder of the Quarry Choris ters, for her dedication and hard work. The Stonewall Legion Ladies Auxiliary and the Stonewall Lions Club also deserve a huge thank you for their help with the provisions. So, congratulations to all on organizing such a successful event. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Health Research Initiatives Mr. Cris Aglugub (The Maples): Mr.

Speaker, it is with great pleasure that I rise today to bring attention to one of our Government's many new initiatives, the latest being our investment in health research centres under the Health Research Initiative. As part of our commitment to enhance support for research, innovation and science and technology sectors of the economy, our Government is providing $3 million in funding for five first-rate health research centres. This new funding will allow this state-of the-art research facility to continue to attract innovative thinkers, talented researchers, and private donations.

Furthermore, as our knowledge-based economy continues to grow, we will see many employment opportunities for our province's talented researchers. Most importantly, some-time in the future we will see the extraordinary impact today's research will have on solving health challenges and improving people's quality of life. The five centres that will receive funds are the University of Manitoba. the St. Boniface General Hospital Research Centre, the Health Sciences Centre Research Department, the CancerCare of Manitoba. the Child ren's Hospital Foundation.

My colleagues and I are very pl eased to be able to commit funding to this increasingly successful health research community. Our Government has supported and will continue to support this province's research, innovation, science and technology sectors of the economy, because all Manitobans will benefit in the long run. * (14 :40) Manitoba Farm Women's Conference Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Recently I had the pleasure of attending the Manitoba Farm Women's Conf erence in Winnipeg.

This is a most important annual forum that allows women interested in agriculture and rural issues to hear speakers on a wide variety of topics and to share ideas about how to make and grow the communities in Manitoba. For example, this year's speakers talked about subjects ranging from new generation co-operatives to growing Manitoba vegetables and the industry and to get a small business off the ground. The conference

May 16 , 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 18 45 also saw the launch of the second edition of Around the Kitchen Table, a collection of stories, anecdotes, illustrations and advice provided exclusively by rural women. I would like to thank Joan McAllister and Yvette Cuthbert of Portage Ia Prairie area for their working in compiling this book, which is already proving to be a very popular edition.

Another interesting aspect of the conference was the mini-market that gave rural women an opportunity to showcase some of the wares, products, that range from specialty foods to wood furniture to wheat-weaving and candles. The mini-market off ered a hint at the broad range of products being developed and sold by the enterprising women in rural Manitoba. I would like to thank all those involved in organizing the Manitoba Farm Women's Conf erence.

The conference provides an impor tant opportunity for women who play such a critical role in sustaining the health of our communities and to cultivate new and unique ways to make rural Manitoba stronger. These women are a true attribute to society and to the general public as a whole. Northern Education Summit Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): I rise today to draw the attention of this House to a regional Manitoba Training and Education Summit held in northern Manitoba in The Pas on May 11 . There is a need to expand the dialogue about education and training to Manitoba's northern communities.

This Government is making significa nt eff orts to address this need. The goals of this Government include the reduction of skill shortages, paying greater attention to under served groups, increasing youth participation rates and success in education and producing greater efficiencies. The attendance at the education summit in The Pas was encouraging as it showed the level of interest among northerners in improving education and employment opportunities. I was privileged to attend the May II summit along with the Minister of Advanced Education (Ms.

McGifford), departmental staff and 15 0 mainly northern participants. This summit in The Pas along with a simi lar meeting held recently in Winnipeg are a very real demonstration of this Government's commitment to work with community leaders, educators and the public at large to develop a comprehensive education and training strategy which is responsible for the needs of all parts of Manitoba. College enrol ment is already increasing as our Government fulfils its commitment to providing new hope for Manitoba's young people.

I was proud to have participated in the northern education summit with residents from The Pas, Cranberry Portage, Sherridon, Wabowden, Thompson, Leaf Rapids, Lynn Lake and many other northern communities. Im proved accessibility to quality-advanced education in Manitoba, particularly northern Manitoba, remains an important goal for all of us. Arena/Entertainment Complex Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I rise to compliment Mark Chipm an, David Graves, Sherman Kreiner and the three levels of government for the exciting Winnipeg True North arena proposal.

The proposal can be an important step in revitalization of Winnipeg's downtown. As the Copps Arena has helped Hamilton, so the True North centre has the potential to help Winnipeg in a very signifi cant way. believe it is now important to proceed quickly to have public hearings to get input from Manitobans. I hear many suggestions from individual Manitobans as to how the new arena proposal could be improved or enhanced.

Some of the suggestions are not necessarily changes to the proposal itself but rather ideas which can complement and enhance the success of the new arena and the success of our efforts to revitalize downtown Winnipeg. Because there are so many who have come forward with suggestions and because I believe there are many more valuable ideas which can and will come from individual citizens, it is vital that there be public hearings that will offer all citizens of our province a chance to have some input into the True North arena development. Not all major infrastructure projects will involve public hearings.

However, the chance to

18 46 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16 , 200 1 provide for a major facelift for downtown Winnipeg with the development of this arena comes only once in several decades. There is a large amount of public money being spent on the arena. We live in a province where democracy is important to citizens and where the chance for citizens to contribute is vital. Citizen parti cipation should be encouraged and facilitated. As an editorial in the Winnipeg Free Press put it: Care should be taken to squeeze out all the possible public advantage from our True North arena.

Public hearings held by the three levels of government will provide for the input we need and ensure that we are taking the care needed to ensure a strong future for the True North arena and a very strong future for the city of Winnipeg. *** Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I seek leave to table Supplementary In formation for Legislative Review. Therefore, I would like to revert back to Tabling of Reports so that I might- Mr. Speaker: Is it the will of the House to revert back to Tabling of Reports? [Agreed] TABLING OF REPORTS Hon.

Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): would like to table the Enabling Appropriations and Other Appropriations as well as the Employed Pensions and Other Costs. Thank you. ORDERS OF THE DA Y Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, would you canvass the House to see if there is unanimous consent to bring forward a motion to concur in the report of the Rules Committee? Mr. Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House to bring forward a motion to concur in the report of the Rules Committee? [Agreed} Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, move, seconded by the Member for St. Norbert (Mr.

Laurendeau), that the first report of the Standing Comm ittee on the Rules of the House be concurred in. Motion agreed to. Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, would you canvass the House to see if there is unanimous consent to waive the sitting of private members' business on Thursday morning? Mr. Speaker: Is there unanimous consent to waive the sitting of private members' business on Thursday morning? [Agreed] Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, would you canvass the House to see if there is consent of the House for the Committee of Supply to not sit this Friday? Mr.

Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House for the Commit tee of Supply to not sit this Friday? [Agreed] Mr. Mackintosh: Would you please canvass the House to determine if there is agreement that any petitions filed during the session can be in either the new format as indicated in the new rules or in the old format, with the understanding that for the next session petitions should be in the new format? This agreement of the House will accommodate MLAs and members of the public who are in the process of preparing petitions for presentation in the House, to make the transition to the new format. Mr.

Speaker: Is there agreement of the House that any petitions filed during this session can be in either the new format as indicated in the new rules or the old format, with the understanding that for the next session petitions should be in the new format? This agreement of the House will accommodate MLAs and members of the public who are in the process of preparing petitions for presentation in the House to make the transition to the new format. Is there agreement? [Agreed] Mr. Mackintosh: Mr.

Speaker, further to the agreement by members to amend the wording for resolving into the Commit tee of Supply, would you canvass the House to determine if there is leave to also amend the wording in a simi lar way for when the House resolves into the Committee of Ways and Means?

May 16 , 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 18 47 Mr. Speaker: Is there agreement to change the wording to "when the House"? Agreed? [Agreed] Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Sel inger), that the House resolve into the Commit tee of Supply. Motion agreed to. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) HEALTH Mr. Chairperson (Harry Schellenberg): Good afternoon. Will the Commit tee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Comm ittee of Supply meeting in Room 254 is considering the Estimates with the Department of Health. * (15 :20) Before we begin today I would like to advise members of a change in procedure for the Comm ittee of Supply flowing from the adoption of the provisional rules by the House today, May 16 , 2001. Our new subrule 75.( 19 ) states: "During consideration of departmental estimates, line items may be called for the purpose of asking questions or moving amendments. However, there is no requirement to pass line items.

Departmental resolutions must be called individually for passage." This means that the Chair will no longer call out each line item in the Estimates book for passage. Instead, the committee will only need to vote on the resolution for each department. Discussion may still focus on line items, but under these provisional rules there is no longer any requirement to pass indivi dual line items. With that in mind, at yesterday's sitting this

section had agreed to have a global discussion on the entire department, then pass all lines at the end. In accordance with the new rule, there is no long�r a requirement to pass all lines, only the reqmrement to pass the resolutions contained in the departmental Estimates. Did the committee wish to continue with global discussion and then pass all resolutions following completion of the questions, or does it wish to continue with the original agreement on global discussion and passage of all lines? What is the will of the committee? Mrs.

Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): I would like to indicate that I am fine with our original agreement of yesterday. It might make it easier for the staff considering that it is such a large budget. It might just make it easier for staff preparation in coming to this. So I do not have a problem if we want to continue in the manner we decided on yesterday. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Chairperson, I thank the Member for Charles wood and I concur. Mr. Chairperson: Just to confirm what has been agreed upon. We will have a global discussion followed by the passage of the resolution.

Is that the understanding? [Agreed] We will now continue with the Estimates of the Department of Health. Mr. Chomiak: I just wanted to clarify a matter that I dealt with yesterday when I indicated that Mr. Warren Preece, who works through Cabinet communications, was funded from Executive Council. I understand he is seconded from the Department of Labour. Mrs. Driedger: Could the minister tell us what the current vacancy rate is in the Department of Health? Mr. Chomiak: I am advised that we have somewhere in the vici nity of 9% vacancy. Mrs.

Driedger: Does the department intend to main�a.in that vacancy rate or is it actively recrmtmg to try to get that down lower? Mr. Chomiak: When it comes to the Department of Health per se, because of the significance in some of the matters that the Department of Health deals with, it is hard to give a hard and fast. We are recruiting in some areas to get the vacancy rate down to somewhere in the neighbourhood of 6 percent, I believe. * (15: 30)

18 48 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16 , 200 1 Mrs. Driedger: Could the Minister of Health indicate if there are any problem areas in Manitoba Health for recruiting and maintaining staff? Are there any specific departments, for instance, where there might be some hotspots in terms of staffing? Mr. Chomiak: In a quick canvass of some of the officials, the general consensus is that probably any area where there is one of the professions that is in short supply could be conceived as a problematic area. Pharmacists, for example, a huge problem, are potentially a major problem with respect to the department.

I would say any area that requires someone who has a professional qualification. Generally it would be more difficult, I would think, than perhaps other areas. Mrs. Driedger: In the area of labour relations, do you find that you have enough experienced staff in there right now to manage those roles? Mr. Chomiak: I am advised that there are some vacanc ies for which we are actively recruiting. Mrs. Driedger: Is the minister indicating that that is in general or in labour relations in particular? Mr. Chomiak: I was referring specifically to labour relations. Mrs.

Driedger: Could the minister indicate how many staff they might be short there, and what kinds of problems that might be posing? Mr. Chomiak: I am advised that we are actively involved in recruiting for three positions. Mrs. Driedger: Out of a total of how many? Mr. Chomiak: I am advised that we have eight of eleven, so we are actively recruiting three. Mrs. Driedger: Could the minister tell me what the staff turnover is like in the Department of Health, generally? Is it high in any particular areas, or is it fairly normal in terms of the staff turnover rates? Mr.

Chomiak: This is really a subjective view, so it is hard. We are sort of canvassing the front on this. The sense is generally it is not out of line with other departments. Mrs. Driedger: I am just curious. I know that we face a lot of challenges in health care and it demands a lot out of people. I wonder if the minister has any indication of what staff morale is generally like in the Department of Health. Mr. Chomiak: I would say that staff morale is not terrific.

My take on it is generally that there have been so many changes and so much flux in the health care field and that it has been such a small "p" political issue for such a long period of time that it has been very difficult, I think, for people to feel comfortable in what they do generally. That is my take on it. My sense is we have not had an over whelming number of resignations, for example. That, I do not think, is the case.

But my sense is generally, and I have been in many other organizations, that there is less enthusiasm and less optimism, shall I put it, in the Department of Health than perhaps in the past, largely based I think on so many changes and the fact that there has been constant restructuring of health care, constant reform of health care. One has to realize that the whole department has been reconfigured dramatically over the past decade, significantly downsized and a significantly diff erent kind of approach to health care. So that is my personal take on the situation. Mrs.

Driedger: I would like to thank the minister for that answer. Could he tell me if there are any contract workers operating within the department now? Does the minister have any people working on contract within the Department of Health? Mr. Chomiak: I have to say yes. Mrs. Driedger: Could the Minister of Health identify who they are and what they would be doing? Mr. Chomiak: I understand that we could provide a list of that. We do not have it at this point.

Because of the nature of some of the projects in health there are a lot of contractual arrangements that are entered into in a variety of areas, so the department will undertake to try to put together a list of those positions.

May 16 , 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 18 49 Mrs. Driedger: I appreciate the department undertaking that. Are there any positions that have been relocated since taking office, for instance, any movement or relocation of people from rural or northern Manitoba into Winnipeg or relocations from around the province to any great extent? Mr. Chomiak: We are checking the collective memory here of people around the table. The general consensus is that there has been no wholesale relocation, either from urban to rural or rural to urban, that has taken place to anyone's recollection. Mr.

Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): I am led to believe that this is basically a global discussion that we are having. I just would like to ask a few questions of the minister in regards to the rural RHAs, of which I represent Marquette, southwest and central. I know that one of the questions that was asked of the minister last year was in regard to the plan, I guess, or the document that was out there in regard to qualifications for a hospital. We have seen the document. Has there been any progress on it or is there any movement on it? Mr.

Chomiak: I am assuming that the member is referring to what is commonly referred to as the template document. That was an exercise that was commenced in August of 19 99 to look at the standards for provision of care in smaller facilities so as to determine what those standards are. That particular document was completed, I believe, in the spring of 2000. I then forwarded the document to all of the regions and to some of the members of the Opposition who requested it for their review and for their advice.

There are a series of recommendations in that document concerning certain minimum standards that would apply to certain rural facilities, and Mr. Chair, the Government has not acted on those recommendations. * (15: 40) Mr. Tweed: Does the Government intend to act on those recommendations? Mr. Chomiak: There are a number of reports out dealing specifically with the provision of services in smaller facilities. There is the document the member referred to which is the template document.

There was also another report that was commissioned by the former government in the mid-'90s that also came to our attention, and it was publicly released, dealing with the utilization of small facilities and hos pitals throughout Manitoba, an assessment done of all of those particular facilities. The basic Government position has been to acknowledge the information in those particular documents and to recognize them. It is govern ment policy that we do not intend to close facilities, to close hospitals. Mr.

Tweed: So I would assume then, by hearing that comment, the Government is not prepared to act with the template as it is right now? Mr. Chomiak: The template process that was entered into in August of '99, which we received when came to government, has been received for information. Mr. Tweed: One of the things that I have been hearing at all the RHA meetings on human resource issues is the fact that all RHAs, or at the least the three that I currently represent, are having huge cost overruns in overtime pay.

I am just wondering if the department or if the minister has instructed the department to look at this issue and perhaps offer some direction or solution to that huge problem that is out there. Mr. Chomiak: An extensive provision of overtime pay implies a number of things. I think, in this particular instance, it is a recognition of an acute shortage of health care personnel in a variety of areas and the utilization of overtime in order to attract or maintain those personnel to take on extra shifts and extra positions. It is clearly a government policy, and we have asked for RHAs to do a number of things.

We have asked them to try to employ full-time, permanent positions across the system. We have asked them to consider and to introduce as much as possible a utilization of LPNs, for example, in nursing positions. There are a number of steps that we are endeavouring to do in order to assist the RHAs in dealing with the huge personnel shortages. It remains a major problem. In many instances, the member will know and be aware

18 50 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16 , 200 1 that something as-I say commonplace, and I do not mean it in a-.<ommonplace is a maternity or paternity leave, for example-something as common as that can affe ct the operations of an entire facility because of the very low levels of human resources that we have in the system. We are still some time away I think from seeing the eff ect of some of our training and education initiatives that we have launched.

Unfortunately, because of that we are going to be going through some difficult periods over the next period of time, dealing with staff shortages across the system. Various RHAs have employed various means in order to address those issues. One RHA, for example, attempted to pay a bonus to a particular profession and were brought before the Labour Board on an unfair labour practice, and in fact, were found to have engaged in an unfair labour practice. It is a very difficult problem.

Cl early, it would be preferable for all concerned to minimize the overtime hours for a number of reasons, not only for cost benefits but because it would imply additional personnel were working in the system. I think it is very clear that there are human resource shortages, and as a consequence, the issue of overtime is one that is with us and probably will be a problem for some time, although if there are any other suggestions that the member could make or anyone could make to us with respect to dealing with that issue, we would be happy to listen. * (15 :50) Mr.

Tweed: Well, I thank the minister for the opportunity to contribute, but if I remember correctly, it was his Government that suggested that they could solve this problem overnight, and he suggested that it is going to be a period of time. I am wondering if he might identify for all people what that time frame might be. Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Chairperson, I think that it was very clear to Manitobans that to fix the health care system, despite claims of the member opposite, it is not something that could be done overnight because of the cutbacks and the difficulties that occurred in the health care system over the past decade. I do indicate and draw, rather than go through a dissertation, I repeat what I said yesterday in my opening remarks.

I would suggest to the member that he perhaps review the comments that I indicated in my comments yesterday about the significa nt changes and significa nt improvements that have occurred in the health care system over the past few months. That would then prevent us and me from getting into a long political discussion. The member asked specifically about the issue of when we could expect some of the increases in staffing levels. Quite clearly, it falls into a number of different categories.

As the member may be aware, we have now in education training almost doubled the number of nurses than we did four years ago. Unf ortunately, both last year's class and this year's class are graduating classes from the very low numbers that where enrolled three and four years ago. However, next year and subsequent years, we expect to graduate more nurses than in any time in the past period of time. So there will be some relief in the next several years with respect to nurses. With respect to doctors, it is not a simple process. There are a number of changes we have ef fected.

Clea rly, the expansion of enrolment at the Faculty of Medicine will have an effect, but that clearly will not have an effect until six or seven years down the road. However, there is some light at the end of the tunnel in some other areas. Firstly, the fact that we expanded residency positions and allocated some for rural Manitoba, family medicine specifically, means that in several years, after a two-year residency, there will be physicians who have trained in rural Manitoba and, hopefully, will consider remaining in rural Manitoba.

Secondly, with respect to physicians, we also have recently, the member may be aware of, introduced a new program for foreign-trained Canadian doctors. This program is deliberately geared at fast-tracking foreign doctors to receive conditional licences commensurate with conditional licences that are off ered to off -shore doctors, and will allow them to pra ctice medicine in a location other than Winnipeg, a rural and northern location, a return of service arrangement that will provide for these doctors to function under a conditional licence here in a

May I6 , 200 I LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA I8 5I rural or northern part of the province for a period of time, which could in the short term and the medium term have some benefit in rural Manitoba. This is in addition to our efforts to continue to recruit off -shore, something the member is very fam iliar with, insofar as I understand when he was the legislative assistant to the former, former Minister of Health, he was engaged in that particular process. There are, of course, issues respecting the training of allied health care professionals.

Over the past several years, the member might be aware, for example, that the lab technician training course was cancelled, and we are looking at a reintroduction of the course. There are also other training programs that we are looking at with respect to allied health professionals, which will be the third component of our overall human resource training plan, the first being nurses; the second being physicians; the third being allied health professionals.

I should also indicate to the member that there will be other initiatives with respect to physicians that we will be dealing with in the next period of time, which hopefully will have the ef f ect of retaining and perhaps attracting physicians and other professionals to rural Manitoba. I cite specifically the rural and northern health office that will be established shortly, as well as some other initiatives to deal with physician shortages. So, in sum total, there are a number of initiatives we are undertaking.

There will be some further announcements, I suggest, in the next few months with respect to retention of professionals. There will be some growth in the next several years with respect to these professionals, but in the short term there will still be shortages that we are going to be facing. Mr. Tweed: Will the IMGs not be allowed to provide services in the city of Winnipeg? Mr. Chomiak: I believe they will be and if memory serves me correctly, if the IMG should qualify, for example, to get a registration immediately, I think they can practise if they are fully licensed and they take the

Part II exam. They should be in a position where they could practise in Winnipeg. If they require residency and conditional licensure then they will be providing service outside of Winnipeg. Mr. Tweed: Recognizing that there is a shortage, I think, of doctors all across Manitoba, does the minister not see this as drawing a line in the sand, saying if you can get a licence we will let you practise in Winnipeg, and if you cannot get a licence we will let you practise in rural Manitoba? Mr.

Chomiak: No, as opposed to the former policy that there was no policy, this is actually the first program of its kind in the country that allows for the IMGs who have been here for years and many of whom could not get licences, and there was no way to get licences other than through the matching CaRMS of which many could not get a licence and, in fact, as a consequence brought action against the govern ment of Manitoba and the college, et cetera, through the Human Rights Commission.

We decided and we committed when we came to office that we would try to find a solution for the IMGs in order to permit them to practise medicine in Manitoba. There is a clear recognition that in rural Manitoba the ratio of physicians to patients is I to 2000, in northern Manitoba it is I to 6000, if memory serves me correctly, and in the city of Winnipeg it is I to 600. So that is clearly a need and a desire to have physicians outside of the city of Winnipeg.

The whole process generally with the IMGs is to put them similar to those relationships of the physicians that the member opposite recruited from offshore, and we continue to recruit by the way of provision of conditional licences. So they have conditional licences, and the condition of the conditional licences is generally to practise in an under serviced area. Further in this regard, the contention of the member is not accurate insofar as once a person has a full licensure we cannot restrict where they practise anymore.

It would not be appropriate to do it with IMGs anymore than we do with other people who have licences. What we are doing, however, is taking action in a number of areas: (

a) by providing IMGs with conditional licences so they can offer a service outside of Winnipeg

18 52 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA May 16 , 200 1 in underserviced areas, (

b) by expanding resi dency positions outside of Winnipeg, (

c) by expanding the enrolment in the college for the first time in a decade, (

d) by opening an office of rural arid northern health, and there will be other initiatives in this regard providing service. Mr. Tweed: Could the minister tell us how many IMGs he expects to be successful in his new program? Mr. Chomiak: At this point we are looking for a minimum of 10 a year. Mr. Tweed: Can the minister tell me what the process will be for the international medical graduate to apply and what criteria, and how he will be allocated into the rural and northern areas? Mr. Chomiak: In general, any IMG who is qualified from a world health organization accredited facility can apply to the IMG program.

They then take a three-day assessment of their skills after which they are in a position where they can take a number of courses to upgrade their skills over a period of one year. If they pass that three-day assessment, they can receive a conditional licence and then they will be assigned to an underserviced area and have up to five years to write their LMCC

Part II. If they do not qualify after that three-day period specifically for a conditional licence, as I indicated earlier, they have up to a year to take a number of upgrade courses that are of f ered specifically, individually, to the IMGs to help them acquire the skills that are necessary to bring them up to the standard. They would then permit them to obtain a conditional licence at which point again they would be assigned to an underserviced area and have again up to five years to write their LMCC

Part II in order to obtain their licence. Mr. Tweed: Can the minister provide a list of the World Health Organization-approved countries where IMGs would come from? Could he also provide us with a list or with a general idea of what percentage of the people in the system today in Manitoba that may be making application would be from? * (1 6:00) Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, I am advised that the application process is ongoing as we speak. So in order to give a specific profile of the kind of candidates that are applying it might be dif ficult at this point.

We will endeavour to try to provide to the best of our ability a list of the World Health Organiza tion facilities, although I understand it is pretty extensive. We will also try to provide to the minister a list of the application and some of the documentation associated with the program that we have introduced so as to help the member fam iliarize himself with the process. To the extent possible, I think that would then generally provide the member with the information I think he is searching for. Mr. Tweed: Mr.

Chair man, I would hope that the department would be able to provide the list of the approved countries if we are going to accept immigrant doctors from those countries to practice. I would think he should have a list today, in my mind. Obviously, you have announced the program and you know where these doctors are acceptable in their programs of training, where they are coming from. I would hope that the minister would be able to provide it in short order.

I wonder, is the process set up so that, if I am an IMG that has been in Canada, been in Manitoba for the last five years, I can now make application for the three-day assessment program and, if successf ul, be working within 60 to 90 days? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, if the indiv idual is current in terms of their inf ormation and meets all of the other criteria, it is conceivable that they could qualify after the three-day assessment period and be practising by the fall, we anticipate.

As the program rolls out, they would be in that position ef fectively almost immediately, as soon as the bulk of the program is rolling out. Mr. Tweed: Mr. Chairman, just for confirmation, I wrote down here, the minister suggested that he believes there will be 1 0 a year move into the system and out into the workforce.

May 16 , 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 18 53 Mr. Chomiak: That is certainly the vision and the hope of the department. I think that insofar as this is an entirely new process and this is a process that has not been, as I understand it, duplicated elsewhere, obviously there will be, as there is in all new programs and new initiatives, a learning curve. There may be difficulties that we did not anticipate. I have been really impressed with the calibre of work done and the people who have come together on this particular program.

It has been a long time coming in terms of getting everyone into the room together to develop a program of this nature. Having said that, we anticipate and we believe that that is our goal. That is what we intend to do. I want to give the Colle ge of Physicians and Surgeons and the University of Manitoba Faculty of Medicine as well as the Department of Health staff and others who worked really hard to put this program together-some people thought it never could be done. But I think people working together with commitment to common goals demonstrate that in fact it can be done.

Having said that, it is clear because it effectively is a prototype in this country and subject to unforeseen circumstances. However, subject to all of those factors, we are anticipating 10 graduates out of this a year. Mr. Tweed: Just for clarification, then, are you saying 1 0 graduates will come out after one year-not necessarily after the three-day assess ment? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, that is why we indicated it was a minimum. What we have done is we have assigned resources, I believe, and we have assumed that there will be 10 that will require some form of upgrading or another over the year.

If , for example, 20 apply and 10 are instantly, quote, credited, then we would be having 20 out that year. So that is why we indicated we were anticipating a minimum of 10 . Mr. Tweed: In the past there has been reference again in rural and northern Manitoba to the large number of foreign-trained doctors. Can the minister give us what the percentage is currently in rural and northern Manitoba? Mr. Chomiak: We will provide that information to the member. Mr.

Tweed: In regard to the IMGs, is there a supervising doctor or group of doctors that will be managing and working with ongoing training as they are out in the field, or who acts as the supervising personnel for a successf ul candidate that would be working in rural and northern Manitoba? Mr. Chomiak: We are ant icipating that these individuals will be essentially mentored by the office of rural and northern health soon to be established through collaboration with the Faculty of Medicine at the University of Manitoba. Mr. Tweed: So there will not actually be any on-site supervision of these doctors? Mr.

Chomiak: It is recognized, in addition to the assistance that is being off ered by the office of rural and northern health and, through that, the Faculty of Medicine, which has been one component and piece of the puzzle that we have had to put in place, that all of the individuals working in the RHAs will be working with and under the auspices of the medical directors of the specific region or area for which they are employed. Mr. Tweed: Can the minister tell us where the office of rural and northern health will be? Mr. Chomiak: No. Mr. Tweed: Cannot or will not? Mr. Chomiak: Cannot. Mr.

Tweed: Can the minister advise us as to what

schedule he is on to make that announcement? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, there is a process that has been developed with and through the RHAs to assess and to make recommendations with respect to the office of rural and northern health. That is why I am not in a position to indicate at this time where the office will be located. The process is still ongoing. I was actually recently briefed in that regard, and as I recall, a number of communities have applied to be the location for the office of

18 54 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16 , 200 1 being vetted through both the RHAs and RHAM. Mr. Chairperson: The honourable minister. Mr. Chomiak: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson, and specifically, thank you, staff. Specifically, the steering committee, which is comprised of RHAM, the RHAs, the Faculty of Medicine, the Department of Health and the MMA, is anticipating all of the tenders coming in by the fall and making a determination by then. Mr. Tweed: Can the minister advise me where in the Budget of this year the funding has been allocated to set that up, where I would find it? Mr.

Chomiak: The lines in which the initiatives are found are 21 .4.(c). * (16:10 ) Mr. Tweed: I presume we are in the same book, page 91, 21 .4.(c). Is that under Physician Services or Other Professionals or Other? Mr. Chomiak: On page 91, there is a footnote 1. that says, and I quote: "In crease is primarily due to the Arbitration Agreement with the Manitoba Medical Association as well other collective bargaining agreements with physi cians, and new initiatives in Physician Recruit ment and Retention." Mr.

Tweed: So can the minister advise me in that number what the value is for the operation and set-up of that rural and northern office? Mr. Chomiak: We will undertake to provide that specific number to the member. Mr. Tweed: Is it a tendering process that the Government is working with to set up this office? Mr. Chomiak: RFPs were put out to all of the municipalities and through the RHAs to most communities in rural Manitoba. A large number have come in. I know it, because when I have been out travelling in rural Manitoba, I have been advised by various indivi duals that certain communities have applied.

So those tenders have come in. We are hoping to have the process complete by the fall. Mr. Tweed: Would the minister be prepared to offer a copy of the RFP to us? Mr. Chomiak: We will undertake to obtain a copy of the RFP and provide it to the honourable member for review. Mr. Tweed: Again, I guess, and I am understanding that the minister is going to provide me a copy of the RFP and also a copy of the budget allocation for that type of facility. If that is so, can I just ask are you looking at the community that offers you the most cost effective or is it location? How do you put out a request for that?

What is it based on, I guess, is really the question I am asking. Mr. Chomiak: The proposal for an office of rural and northern health came out of the recommendations of the group that had been examining a rural physician recruitment and retention for a number of years. There were and are a number of factors associated with that particular office. Obviously affi liation with the Unive rsity of Manitoba and access is a factor. The ability to access a physician is another factor.

Obviously location, so location becomes a factor, the supports that can be off ered, and the particular criteria relating to that, I believe, were all factors that were considered. There may be additional factors, as well, I am certain there are, that relate to the provision and the offering of the service through the office of rural and northern health. Mr. Tweed: So the requests have gone out to all the RHAs, and there is a closing date. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, yes, it is already closed. Mr.

Tweed: I guess, more for explanation, when you are talking rural and northern office, I do not understand what location would have to do with the tender in the process in the sense of either it is rural or northern or it is not. What kind of a factor would that play? I mean, you have a huge area to look at, and I guess I do not understand what location you have as far as criteria. If it was the right bid, no matter where it was, I would suspect it would qualify based on its being rural or northern.

May 16 , 200 1 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 18 55 Mr. Cbomiak: Yes, there are several criteria, and I remember, when we discussed this initially, when we initially announced our physician recruitment retention plan, how attractive it looked to a lot of communities. Unfortunately, not all communities were in a position where they probably qualify. There are two, as I understand it, two particular factors.

First is, because of the affili ation with the University of Manitoba, Faculty of Medicine, there are some criteria and need to be in a relative geographic proximity, if l can put it in those terms, or ability to access the Univ ersity of Manitoba Faculty of Medicine. The other issue is that it ought to be a community that can support a sufficient number of physicians that has access to a sufficient number of physicians who can then assist the office of rural and northern health in undertaking its duties. Mr.

Tweed: Can the minister advise will this be up and running by the end of the year or by the end of the budget year, or what is the expectation? Mr. Cbomiak: We are certainly hoping and anticipating that it will be up and running by the end of this fiscal year. That is certainly our intention. One would hope even sooner than that, but I will limit it to that particular range. Mr. Tweed: When we were talking about the IMGs, you have announced the program, how quick are you looking at implementation on it? Mr. Cbomiak: As I understand it, imple mentation is taking place very soon.

I will get the specifics to the member, but, if memory serves me correctly, we are in a position to start the assessments, in fact, I think within weeks. In terms of the programming, itself, believe that is also up and running and in a posi tion to do that, but I will just confirm the specifics for the member. Mr. Tweed: I appreciate that you will get that. I just wa

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-2-31
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 2nd hansardpdf 31.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	7201b12f2aff31c20050702ac2c75907681f08f1

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