Manitoba Hansard — 3 April 1979 (Sitting 32A, 31st Legislature, 3rd Session)

31-3-32a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL V OF MANITOBA Tuesday, April 3, 1979 Time: 2:30 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (Birtle-Russell): Before we proceed, I should like to draw the honourable members' attention to the gallery, where we have 60 students from Jefferson Junior High, under the direction of Mr. Zuk. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks. We also have 31 students of Grade 5 standing from Precious Blood School, under the direction of Madame Annette Bouchard. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for St.

Boniface . On behalf of all the honourable membsrs, we welcome you here today. Presenting Petitions ... Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . . . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism . HON. NORMAL. PRICE (Assiniboia): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to distribute one of our new Manitoba Fishing Guides to the members of the House here and personally extend an invitation to them to visit some of our very beautiful lakes we have in Manitoba this summer. A MEMBER: That's if the ice ever gets off them. MRS.

PRICE: Think positively. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion ... Introduction of Bills. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Burrows. MR. BEN HANUSCHAK: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct my question to the Honourable Minister of Economic Development. Would he be good enough to favour the House with a copy of his speaking notes from the speech which he made in Morden last night? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Economic Development. HON. J. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Mr. Speaker, I don't have any written speech that I spoke of in Morden.

I just spoke to the group at the Pembina Valley yesterday, and I'm afraid I don't have any written speech. MR. HANUSCHAK: Could the Minister indicate to the House whether he has done any feasibility studies on the industries that he proposes to attract to the province of Manitoba, namely: fighter aircraft manufacture, and health care products I believe was the other. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, the department is working steadily and the fact that we have somebody that is specifically assigned to the Fighter Aircraft Program, working on the benefit of Manitoba, and there's been a lot of work done by ourselves and the Aerospace Industry in Manitoba on this subject. The other feasibility studies that I spoke of - I said that the health care products business would be one that we should be looking at in M!initoba, and our department has been doing a lot of research and work on it. 1855

Tuesday, April 3, 1979 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kildonan . MR. PETER FOX: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is directed to the Minister of Health. In view of the fact that he made a brief to the Senate, and also released it to the media, will he extend the same courtesy to this House so that the members, too, will know what was in the brief? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health . HON. L.R. (BUD) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Yes, Mr. Speaker . That is in process. MR. FOX: I do not understand the Minister, Mr. Speaker .

How can it be in process if he's already released it to the news media, and also to the Senate? And is that a policy that he has released? MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker , the Province of Manitoba was asked to submit a presentation to the Senate Committee on aging. A position was prepare d; it was scheduled to be delivered by me to the Senate last Tuesday, and that date was cancelled with the call of the federal election. At that point in time we issued it in printed form to Senator David Crowl, the Chairman of the Committee, so he could have it for the record.

Naturally, there was some publi c attention attendant upon that. I'm having copies made for distribution to all members of the Legislature. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Oppos ition. MR. HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker , my question to the First Minister . I wonder if the First Minister could advise the House as to when Budget might be expected. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. STERLING R. LYON (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, I can't give my honourable friend an exact date at this stage.

I'm not being facetious when I say that in the relatively near future - and by that I mean a matter of weeks . While I'm on my feet, Mr. Speaker, perhaps I could take the opportunity to respond to the question of the Member for St. Johns concerning an Order-in-Council he was enquiring about. The Order-in-Council in question related to the Department of Economic Development, and an agreement with the Manitoba Research Council respecting the food products testing facility at Portage Ia Prairie.

That Order-in-Council was delayed in order that a joint announcement might be made by the Minister with respect to another agreement under the industrial sub-agreement of DREE relating to the City of Winnipeg. Those two announcements have been made, and the Orders-in-Council respecting both of those agreements have been filed. I can add by way of postscript , of course , that the practice is not an unusual practice - it's been followed through a number of administrations-in-Council - to delay filing of Orders in anticipation of public announcements . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Johns . MR.

SAUL CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the Honourable First Minister for his explanation . I'm just wondering whether the practice that he refers to and which, I would assume that he approves of, includes delaying announcements of an Order-in-Council already passed unrelated to any other issue. The Honourable the Minister said that he was waiting to be able to make an announcement relating to two specific matters , which as I unders tan d it are not related to each other . Does that justify that .. . ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister . MR. LOON: Mr.

Speaker , I'm sorry if I was confusing in my response. The two Orders-in-Council are related that they are both under the same industrial sub-agreement and it was the desire of the Minister to make a joint announcement on the two of them which he has done . MR. CHERNIACK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker , I gather then that there are two different receipients related to the same fund . And may I ask, Mr.

Speaker , it would be convenient if the number of the Order-in-Council were made known to us so that we could relate it to, unless the Minister has made the statement in such a way I haven't - seen it, let's put it that way, and I would like to 1856 .II

Tuesday, April 3, 1979 be able to understand it. The other point is, could the Honourable Minister indicate the effective elate of the Order-in-Council 152? IIIR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Economic Development. MR. JOHNSTON: The Order-in-Council referred to as the First Minister says, was an Order-in-Council authorizing myself as the Minister to sign an agreement with the Manitoba Research Council on the management of the expanded Food Product in Portage Ia Prairie which is part of thessub-DREE Agreement.

The other one that I wanted to announce with it was also an authority for the Minister to sign an agreement with the Manitoba Research Council on the management of the Winnipeg Technology Centre to help industries in Winnipeg. It is the Manitoba Research Council that will be administering the managemen They're both under the DREE agreement and were released today to the Press . They were both announced the same day. The reason for holding up the other Order was they are both referred to the Manitoba Research Council. I wanted to do them both at the same time. IMR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon East.

IMR. LEONARD S. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, further to the answer of the Honourable Minister , could he advise the House, ecause some of us have not seen the press release yet - 'c:ould he advise the House the number of staff that will be engaged at the Portage Food Products Centre and also the number of staff that may be engaged at the, I believe he referred to as the Winnipeg Technology Centre or Technological Advancement Centre. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Ecnonmic Development. MR.

JOHNSTON: It is anticipated we will have 7 people when we are in f, I operation at Portage Ia Prairie with the expansion , and when the Winnipeg Technological Centre is ready we will have 13 people. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon. MR. THOMAS BARROW: I address my question to the Attorney-General, Mr. Speaker . Could the Honourable Member inform the House if he has any plans regarding the municipal building in the City of Flin Flon? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. GERALD W. J. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, I have met with the Mayor of Flin Flon and the Members of Council with respect to their concerns in this particular regard and I have written recently the Mayor of Flin Flon advising him that it would appear that the only possibility of providing any funds to the City of Flin Flon for the construction of a municipal office building would be under the community services agreement with the federal government which is still in the process of negotiation , Mr. Speaker . We expect to get an answer shortly from the federal government. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR.

RUSSELL DOERN: I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Corrections in terms of the proposed Flin Flon building which was supposed to include a jail; a holding facility for the RCMP. Is the Minister satisfied with the present arrangement whereby prisoners are being shuttled back and forth between Flin Flon and Creighton , Saskatchewan because of the lack of facilities in Flin Flon? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. SHERMAN: Well, Mr.

Speaker , I think it would be fair to say that , along with my honourable friend, I'm never satisfied with anything less than perfection , and obviously the system is not perfect, but we have a challenge with respect to the correctional institutional situation at The Pas, and that comes first on the list of priorities at the moment , so I would have to answer him by saying that in a qualified way I'm satisfied for the time being. MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker , I'd like to direct a question then to the Attorney-General, and ask him 1857

Tuesday, April 3, 1979 whether he has received any complaints from the RCMP about the lack of adequate holding facilities in Flin Flon? mmr. SPEAKER: Would the Honourable Member tor Elmwood care to repeat his question? MR. DOERN: I don't believe the Attorney-General heard me. I would ask him whether he or the Minister of Corrections has received any complaints from the RCMP about the lack of proper holding facilities in Flin Flon. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney -General. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, there's been a general discussion of facilities for the RCMP in Flin Flon, and as the member probably knows, the provision of facilities for the RCMP under these circumstances is the responsibility of the municipality . MR. DOERN: I then ask the Attorney-General whether, in his discussion with members of the local council, whether the council expressed a concern in regard to the possible withdrawal of services by the RCMP, which was expressed to our governme nt several years ago.

Has the town expressed that concern to the Minister now, namely that the RCMP may cancel their contract if they don't get suitable facilities? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker , that matter has been resolved for the time being, between the town and the RCMP. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY: A supplementary to the question posed by the Honourable Member for Elmwood. Has the Attorney-General, in his discussions with the Federal SolicitorGeneral received any indication during the past year that RCMP services may be eased out insofar as urban centres of 10,000 and over? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER: No, Mr. Speaker . We are presently in the process of negotiating a new agreement with the RCMP and the whole agreement is under negotiat ion. MR. PAWLEY: I appreciate the tact that the Attorney-Genera l has indicated he's re-negotiating .. a new contract . I'd just like the Attorney-General to indicate whether or not the existing contract continues until 1981, that had been my understanding . MR. MERCIER: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, the existing contract does not expire until 1981, and as I have indicated the eight contracting provinces are in the process of having met, and I recently wrote on behalf of all eight provinces to indicate some preliminary concerns of the provinces to the Solicitor General and we're hopeful that a meeting of officials will be arranged fairly shortly . MR.

PAWLEY: Would the Attorney-General advise whether the federal government is continuing the process which they had commenced in 1976, to gradually ease away more and more from the federal cost-sharing responsibility for RCMP services , a process which they had commenced in 1976. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker , I received no indication that they wished to move any further away, of course, the fact that the province 's share of costs of RCMP services has risen 1 percentage point per year over the last five years is of a concern to us and all of the provinces who contract with the RCMP for their services , and it's an item that will be negotiated with the federal government, but there haven't as yet been any meetings between the provinces and the federal government. To date , the provinces have been putting together the position we wish to take with them. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. George . MR.

BILLIE URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture and ask him. In the recent publications of the Manitoba Gazette, there have been changes indicated in the hail insurance and other crop insurance regulations . Could the minister indicate 1858

Tuesday, April 3, 1979 whether there are any substantive changes in policy in those regulations? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur): Not to my knowledge, Mr. Speaker. MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Could the minister confirm whether a change in the regulations of crop insurance dealing with the distance between a farm on the same contract has been increased from 10 miles to 25 miles, as part of the same unit? MR. DOWNEY: I didn't quite understand the question, is the member referring to the distance in which two crops can be insured in the same contract?

Any change in that regard, is there? I'll take the question as notice to let the member know. MR. URUSKI: Yes, Mr. Speaker , while the minister takes that as notice, could he also inquire, if that change has been made, whether there has been a premium reduction in terms of the larger area that is involved in the farm unit? MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the day. The Honourable Member for Kildonan. MR. FOX: Thank you, Mr. Speaker .

My question is directed to the Minister of Economic Development, in view of the announcement that 14 businesses will get government loans and the body of the item of the news- release indicates they will be interest- free, forgivable loans can the minister indicate how many of those loans will be grants and not loans and what the parameters are under which those grants are given? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Economic Development. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, the agreement of the Enterprise Manitoba with the federal government, which totals $44 billion, $5 million of that is awarded to what is called the Rural Small Enterprise Program. There are forgivable loans and I guess you could call them grants, made to small manufacturing businesses in rural Manitoba for new manufacturing or expansion of present manufacturing . The way those grants are decided upon, is there is an application made to the government, to my department for it.

There is a group of businessmen in each area of Manitoba who have been set up to examine and advise us on whether it's a feasible type of business. Also my department is available to do research for those businessmen at any time to help them make any recommendations. The process then goes to a committee made up of provincial and Federal people, because they are our partners in this program , and then the actual grant request, final request comes to my desk . And I can assure the honourable members that the the work that's done on all of those is extensive.

We work with banks, we work with everybody and we work with people in the area to get the best advice we can as to whether it will be a feasible business. Mr. Speaker , the Enterprise Manitoba Agreement was signed last April. This is one

section of the agreement, and I think if honourable members can remember, I forward to every member of this House last fall the information on Enterprise Manitoba. The grants are 50 percent, up to $30,000 , and it must be in rural Manitoba for manufacturing or expansion of same. MR. FOX: Can the Honourable Minister explain what the forgivable features are, what the parameters are in order to make it a grant instead of a loan? . MR.

JOHNSTON: I'd be very happy to forward the honourable member and all the honourable members the brochure that's been available for the last four months on that program, which has been sent to them. When we say, "Forgivable Loan", they do not receive all of the money at once . They must start, they must work, the they must establish a business, and after they are in business and employing people, then it becomes a forgivable loan, but the grant is not all at one time. MR. FOX: I appreciate and thank the Minister for his answer, that this is job creation.

I wonder if he would consider forgivable inter est-free loans to people on minimum wages until his colleague , the Minister of Labour, makes up his mind to give those people a raise so they can be gainfully employed too . MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker , I don 't think the honourable member's question really relates to the Enterprise Manitoba, but for his information, there has been $311,000 made in loans by the 1859

Tuesday, April 3, 1979 Federal and provincial government under this program. As a total of 15, as the member has said . Of the 15, 12 are brand-new businesses, which means, Mr. Speaker, that it's double . We only go in for 50 percent. So it means there's $700,000 has been put into the economy of Manitoba since the program started. It has created a total of 45 jobs, and when 2 12 of them are brand-new businesses and new build ings, that means electricians , plumbers, contractors and people working in Manitoba . That' s what the Enterprise Manitoba is.

And it also does things for small towns in this province that need that kind of help. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. SAMUEL USKIW ( Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, I would like to follow up on the same line of questioning and ask the Minister whether it is he that makes the final decision on any application as to its approval or otherwise? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Economic Development . MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker , as I said , after all the research is done , I guess the buck has to stop here.

My signature has to be the final one that goes out that says that we will make the loan , then we forward all of the papers to the person that has had the approval, they in turn sign them and send them back. I assure you that it is not done in any other way but on a basis of whether it is a viable business or not. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet . MR. USKIW: Well, Mr. Speaker , I would like to know by what rule of thumb that we come to a position where one person makes a final decision , as to whether a person or corporation receives a government grant.

Given the fact that it's a Federal-provincial agreement, I would have thought that it should have involved at least two people , one of the Federal government and one of the province of Manitoba . MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker , I don 't think the honourable member was listening. I said that it comes to the departments after research is done and after recommendations are made. There is then - - - - a committee of the Federal and provincial govern ment people sit down and look it over and make the final recommendation to myself . Mr.

Speaker , I am responsible for my department I don't know who else could make the final signature on it . MR. USKIW: Well , Mr. Speaker , I would the n ask the Minister whether he has found it necessary to date at least to reject a ny of the recommendations that he has receive d. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I haven't at this point had the opportunity to reject any, and I'm not saying I'm looking for the opport i un ty. But I have had, Mr. Speaker , the occasion wben I - have held tbem up for a certain length of time until I was satisfied that there was certain infoations that I wanted came to me.

That , I assure you, I will continue to do at any time if I'm not satisfied with all the information . There may be, Mr. Speaker , a te when there will be rejections , and I think that we have to be very fair. As I said , the province and the Federal government are putting up 50 percent , and if we don 't feel that it's a viable operation or the recommendatio ns are such that we have to be honest with people so that they don 't waste their money either. ,. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Johns . MR. CHERNIACK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I wanted to thank the honour able Honourable Minister of Tourism for this handsome booklet entitled "Manitoba Fishing Guide" . I gather it's at her department's expense that this document was published. In view of the fact that we are currently dealing with her Estimates , would she waive the formality of an Order for Return and let us have the information as to the cost of production of this pamphlet , the number of copies produced, and the method and cost of distribution of the pamphlet? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism . MRS. PRICE: I have been through that portion of my Estimates .

In my advertising, however I can get the information for the member . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourab le Member for Transcona. 1860

Tuesday, April 3, 1979 MR. WILSON PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker , my question is directed to the Attorney-GENERAL. Has the Attorney-General decided whether there will be an inquest into the death of the 86 year old woman who died over a week ago in a private guest home. This inquest was requested by Dr. William Parker , Manitoba's Chief Medical Examiner. Has the department come to a decision on that? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER: I'll take that question as notice, Mr. Speaker. MR. PARASIUK: Yes, Mr. Speaker , I've a supplementary to the Minister of Health on this matter.

Has the Minister looked into the matter of whether these private guest homes will be regulated regarding standards of the guest homes and procedures whereby elderly people are admitted to them? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. SHERMAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker. We are looking into that, and have been looking into it for some months. There's a huge field of guest homes, as the honourable member knows, and there are serious questions posed as to the whole area of responsibility and the need tor regulation.

We are looking at that and preparing to bring a position forward to the government for consideration. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Transcona with a final supplementary. MR. PARASIUK: My splementary is directed to the Minister responsible for housing, who has been prophesizing some private subsidy schemes for senior citizens . Will the private subsidy schemes tor senior citizens in housing, in private housing, relate to people, elderly people living in these, at present, unregulated guest homes? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Economic Development . MR. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, I'd have to take that question as notice. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. JAY COWAN (Churchill): Thank you, Mr. Speaker . My question is to the Minister of Education.

In light of the high levels of lead in tested students' blood at a Winnipeg school, and in light of substantiating scientific studies showing that students attending the school near a lead-using industry may experience elevated levels of lead in blood, is the Minister prepared to encourage the Minister of Labour to initiate a Royal Commission into the effects of lead contamination and poisoning so that we can examine the possible effects that lead contamination poses in all schools near lead-using industries? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Ministeroof Education . HON. KEITH A. COSENS (Gimli): Mr.

Speaker, I believe if I heard the Minister of Labour correctly yesterday or the - or pardon me, Friday, or Thursday, he said that they were having folio w-up studies in those schools that were in areas where there was some concern or had been some concern established a year or so ago. I'm quite confident, if they're having those follow-up studies, that will probably fulfill any requirement there. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Well, to correct the Minister, the Minister of Labour yesterday said they were having a follow-up study in one such school and did not indicate that it would be extended to any other schools. My supplementary is to the Minister of Health.

Seeing as how the medical treatment necessitated to deal with the severe crisis in the lead-using industries in Manitoba is costly and in acknowledgment of the fact that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, is the Minister prepared to encourage the Minister of Labour to call a Royal Commiss ion for the purpose of examining and developing ways and means to prevent Manitoba's 1861

Tuesday, April 3, 1979 workers, students and general population from suffering lead poisoning and subsequently needing costly medical treatment? .MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. SHERMAN: I'm not prepared to urge my colleague to appoin t a Royal Commission, Mr. Speaker , but I'm certainly prepared to put it on the agenda of the Community Services Committee of Cabinet . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill with a final supplementary. MR. COWAN: Yes, a final supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

To any member opposite who may wish to reply, or any Minister , in light of the most recent information that the. lead poisoning crisis has now extended into the schools and into the environment and is in the workplace of the city, is any Minister or member prepared to encourage the Minister of Labour to call a Royal Commission to study the severe lead poisoning crisis in the province? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. May I suggest that the honourable member's question is repetititive. The Honourable First Minister . MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, I'm quite happy to respond in general terms to my honourable friend and tell him that the Minister of Labour in the estimation of the government has the situation in hand extremely well, considering that the report to which my honourable friend makes reference was made by the previous government, found by the previous government in 1976 and nothing was done about it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill with a fourth question. MR. COWAN: Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I'm perfectly prepared to answer the First Minister on that, and ask then if he can encourage or can assure the workers of the province who do not share his faith in the Minister of Labour's efforts, that they are indeed safe from lead poisoning because of the non-existent efforts of his government, and that the students in the schools are indeed safe from the adverse effects of lead poisoning extend ing into the school places in the province of Manitoba. Can he assure the public of that? MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the day. The Honourable First Minister. MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker , I can assure my honourable friend that unlike him, this government will not go around crying " wolf ", but this government will attempt to do what the Minister of Labour _ has been describing over the last number of weeks in what is perhaps one of the most active programs that's ,ever been carried out by government, to trace down the sources of lead poisoning or alleged lead poison ing in Manitoba. That program will continue , notwithstanding the rather exaggerated claims that are being made by the Member for Churchill obviously for headline purposes. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill with a fifth question . MR. COWAN: Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the First Minister then, can he indicate what efforts are being taken by his government for the purpose of tracing down the lead problem, the lead poisoning problems in the province of Manitoba, which is indeed, very real and the workers and the students of this province and the people of this province know that it is very real? Can he indicate what they are doing to trace it down to do anything other than react to questions that are asked in this House? MR. LYON: Yes, Mr.

Speaker , the honourable member , if he will read Hansard, will find from the responses that have been largely by the Minister of Labour , that that department has an active program under way at the present time. Exhortations, exaggerations made by the Member for Churchill do nothing to cure the problem. The problem is being dealt with by the Department of Labour and if further action is needed by the department with respect to any matter that is uncovered by them in this field, I can assure my honourable friend the action will be action with or without his headline grabbing exhortations. 1862

Tuesday, April 3, 1979 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill with a sixth question. MR. COWAN: Mr. Speaker, thank you. I would just inform the minister that the headlines are that as lead poisoning exists, lead poisoning exists in the workplace, lead poisoning exists in the schools, lead poisoning exists in environment - they have nothing to do with me. The headlines arise out of the lead poisoning crisis in the province now.

I'd ask the minister to clarify in detail, in the exaggeration that I, from this side of the House, had made in reference to the impact, the effect, or the extent of the severe lead poisoning crisis that exists in the province of Manitoba today. And I'd like him to detail that out, if he will. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the day. The Honourable Government House Leader. The Honourable Member for Transcona. MR. PARASIUK: Yes, Mr. Speaker, it appears that my colleague has not been crying "wolf", he's just called "lion". MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

May I suqgest to the Honourable Member for Transcona that he check the use of parliamentary words very carefully. The Honourable Member for Flin Flon. The Honourable Member for Flin Flon? MR. BARROW: Mr. Speaker, I have just one question to the Premier of the province.

We already know that you show your utter contempt for labour, but the former minister who is now the Minister of Tourism, which wasn't bad enough, and now you have the Member for Thompso I would ask the minister, would he please appoint the Member for Wolseley in that position, who may have the guts to look into this problem and do something about it? MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the day. The Honourable First Minister. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, we, of course, are all happy to see the Member for Flin Flon back in reasonable health from his sojourn down south and we wish him continued health.

And now, beyond that, as to taking my honourable friend's suggestions as to how one should build a Cabinet, I may have some reservations about that. I always listen with attention to what he says, but on this occasion I don 't know that I'm necessarily going to accept his advice, or the premise for his question which I think is a little bit of sort of latter day excitement that he is concerned with too, because he's been the Member for Flin Flon for the last nine years and if he was so concerned about lead, why wasn't he doing something with his own colleagues when they were in government? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill . MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Since the First Minister seems intent on entering into the lead debate today, I'd ask the minister this question. Can he confirm that the most recent scientific, unexaggerated evidence indicates that mental disorders such as hyperactivity, mental retardation and autism have been associated with blood lead levels in children above 25 micrograms per 100 !grams of whole blood? Can he confirm or deny that? IMR. SPEAKER: Orders of the day. The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR.

COWAN: Well then, perhaps, I'll ask another question to the First Minister, Mr. Speaker.

Can the First Minister confirm that the Environmental Protection Agency, the Centre for Disease Control, he National Academy of Science, the Occupational Safety and Health Administration in the United States and numerous members of the scientific and medical community throughout Canada and he world suggest that lead and blood levels in children should be maintained below 30 micrograms per 100 grams of whole blood , and that they further state - these experts further state - that he population mean for school children should be 15 micrograms per 100 grams of whole blood? Can he confirm or deny that? IMR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, I can confirm what the Minister of Labour has confirmed to my honourable riend on numerous occasions in his headline hunting venture, namely that the Department of Labour and the other departments of government are as concerned as any other citizen of this province or indeed, of this country would be about lead standards in the community and, unlike the !Honourable Member for Churchill, they're doing something about it. 1883

Tuesday, April 3, 1979 MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Well, they are so concerned with the lead standards that yesterday the minister couldn't even tell me what the acceptable lead standards for children in the province are. He doesn't even know -(Interjection)-. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. If the Honourable Member for Churchill has a final supplementary question we'll entertain it. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The question to the minister then, can he confirm that . he believes it to be an exaggeration , that results tabled yesterday show that students tested at the Weston School showed a mean level of over 24 micrograms of lead per 100 grams of whole blood which is much higher than the standard accepted mean level for children, and can he also confirm that those students tested at the school also displayed enzyme activity that can be associated and has often- times been associated with lead poisoning? Does he consider that to be an exaggeration, the report that was tabled by his own government? MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, I can only confirm what the Minister of Labour has said to my honourable friend from Churchill, namely that this matter is being followed up as a matter of urgency by this government, even though it was shelved by the previous government when those findings, according to my information, were made in 1976. So he had bette r talk to his front bench colleagues to see what they were doing sitting on their hands for two-and-a-h alf years with that kind of information. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for questions having expired , I would call on the Government House Leader. HON. WARNER H.

JORGENSON (Morris): Mr. Speaker , I move, seconded by the Attorney-General that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted oo Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply, with the Honourable Member for Radisson in the Chair for the Department of Health and Community Services and the Honourable Member for Emerson in the Chair for the Department of Tourism and Cultural Affairs . CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY- TOURISM AND CULTURAL AFFAIRS MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr.

Albert Driedger (Emerson): Committee come to Order. I would like to refer members of the Committee to page 78, Resolution 107, Item 3.(a)(4)Legislative Library, 4(a)-pass - the Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: I wonder if the Minister could explain why there has been such a small increase in the . .. well, we're seeing tvyo things here: we're seeing a minimal increase in Salaries, which I doubt covers the same number of people, and we're also seeing a reduction in Other Expenditures.

So just on the Salaries line, was there any reduction in staff or has there been a very minimal increase in Salaries, which explains that very small increase? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MRS. PRICE: There hasn't been any reduction in staff; it's just a general salary increase in their annual increments. MR. DOERN: How many SMYs are there on staff? MRS. PRICE: Nineteen. MR. DOERN: Are there any vacancies? MRS. PRICE: Two. MR. DOERN: Two vacancies, and does the Minister intend to fill those? 1864

Tuesday, April 3, 1979 MRS. PRICE: Yes, we do. MR. CHAIRMAN: (4)(a)-pass; (4)(b)-pass - the Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Now under (b), Mr. Chairman, there is a reduction of $4,000 approximately, which I guess, is about a 4 to 5 percent decrease, and I assume this is for the purchase of periodicals and books, etc., and I am just wondering if the Minister can tell us why she is reducing the expenditures for the Legislative Library, which I assume would, over the course of time, have an ever increasing usage, and given also the increase in the price of books and periodicals.

I am told, for example, that a few years ago - two or three years ago, 1976 - that an average hard cover book was about $6.00, in the good old days, and now, you're now talking about $10.00 on an average. These are figures that I have obtained. Now if that is true, that is an incredible price increase; I guess it would be about a 65 percent price increase. Secondly, an incredible number of books and publications come from the United States, and we're now talking about an 85-cent dollar, so if we're buying materials from the United States at a devalued Canadian dollar that's also a problem.

So I'm saying to the Minister, I'm concluding ..,. that first of all there is an absolute decrease in the amount of money spent but when that money is turned over to Miss Combaz and her staff that they're are going backwards. In other words they are not able to hold the line but given these escalating prices they are finding it ever more difficult to operate. So I just wonder if the Minister has any comment about that? MRS. PRICE: Well, firstly as the member has just mentioned the price of the hard covered books is getting really quite out of reach and we are now using paper covers instead of hard covers.

We also have less microfilm equipment readers which we are hoping to rectify in the near future. MR. DOERN: Could the Minister indicate what percentage, I know this would be pretty hard to do it would be kind of top-of-the-head but what percentage of books in the library or what percentage of books now being purchased would be Canadian, books and periodicals? MRS. PRICE: I'm advised that all the important Canadian books are being purchased but as far as the percentage, I'm afraid I can't answer that. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Burrows. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr.

Chairman, it appears that with the most recent change in the House rules there has come about a change in the opening hours or in the hours that the Legislative Library is open. You may recall that as long as the House was considered to be in session even while sitting in the Committee of Supply, the library was still open. But a week ago or so, a change was made in the House rules pursuant to which the House adjourns in the afternoon on days that the House goes into Committee of Supply and then it meets in Committee and I have the impression that the government is placing a very strict and narrow legalistic

interpretation upon the phrase, "when the House is in session" that appears on the door. And consequently - now I can't speak for last night, but I do recall on two or three evenings since the change in the rules came about that the House sat in Committee of Supply and the library was closed . Is that practice going tc continue or was it closed for some other reason but it will remain open during Committee of Supply? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MRS.

PRICE: Well under the recent changes in the House procedure as you know, the House can adjourn at 5:30 p.m. and then the Committee goes into its deliberations from 8:00 o'clock on and it hasn't been compulsory for it to remain open. However, it was just closed ttiere a couple of nights and it is going to be remaining open. 1865

Tuesday, April 3, 1979 MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I'm pleased to hear that response from the Minister because perhaps I should add I can well see that the rationale and the justification for not opening the library when there is a relatively small Committee meeting - a Committee of 5, 6, 10, 12 members.90 -91 But when Committee of Supply is meeting, that does take in all of the members, and from time to time a need to use the library does arise. I'm sure that I'm speaking for all members in saying that we will certainly appreciate seeing the library open on those nights, anyway. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MRS. PRICE: The Clerk of the House has informed me that he has been speaking to our Deputy House Leader to speak to your members to see whether or not the members want the library open - so I guess they'll decide between them. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: Well I, too, share the same concerns of the Member for Burrows, because without research assistance and whathave-you, we rely very heavily on the library . And I've had occasion to use the library after hours myself.

But the question I wanted to ask from a point of clarification; he mentioned that important Canadian periodicals are purchased from time to time . . . how would you arrive at the number of a particular book that you might purchase? In other words , maybe we could use as an example that the Free Press has, this one "Beyond Reason" . How many copies of that book would the public and legislative library have - would we buy none, or would we buy one, or would be buy six? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MRS. PRICE: We would buy one copy - and I think that's plenty . MR.

WILSON: Maybe that was a bad example, but what I'm looking for - under what circumstances would the public and legislative libraries buy, say, 12 or 24 copies of a particular book? Would they always just buy one copy, or is there . .. in other words, what are the guidelines that are established? How would we arrive where we buy more than one of one particular publication or book? MRS. PRICE: Well, I think you're talking about two different types of libraries - the public library and the legislative library .

The legislative library buys one, but I understand - and I don't want to be quoted on it - that the public library generally buys two . MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(a)(4)(b)-pass. 3.(a)(5)(a) - the Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: I just wanted to back up, if I could, to finish off on (4). I had written to ... this is prior to the current Minister being there . . .

I had written to the First Minister regarding what I consider was a concern because I could only find one political party being represented through their magazines and periodicals, and the only newspaper that I could find at that time was one called the New Democrat . And I wondered - do we have to pay for that, or is that given to the library free on behalf of the party from Broadway? MRS. PRICE: I understand it's an NDP donation. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(a)(4)(b) ... The Member for Burrows . MR.

HANUSCHAK: Yes, I think that my colleague, the Member for Elmwood asked a moment ago as to the number of SMYs in this branch, but I would think that one of the criteria on the basis of which, or which one ought to take into account in determining the adequacy or the inadequacy of staffing of a legislative library, may be the number of reference queries made to the library . Now 1 appreciate that it's not the only criteria, but I underline that as one of the criteria. So therefore, my question to you, Mr.

Chairman, to the Minister: Could the Minister indicate the number of reference queries - the most recent figure that she would have, I suspect, will be for, hopefully, for the year 1978, but at least 1977, or both if she has them? 1886

.. ., .. - Tuesday, April 3, 1979 ' ,. ''"· .. ~-1.."111 MRS. PRICE: The total number of questions that have been asked for 1977-78 was 12,900; and for 1978-79 was 12,900 also. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, for 1978-79, that's your estimate. MRS. PRICE: I haven't got the one for '79-80. MR. HANUSCHAK: Oh, I'm sorry, yes, yes. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(a)(4)(b)-pass ; 3.(a)(5)(a)-pass - the Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, a couple of points here. Could the Minister give us the SMYs, and also the vacancies? MRS. PRICE: There are 21 SMYs; and 4 vacancies. MR.

DOERN: I just wonder , in view of the importance of this departmment, whether those vacancies are going to be filled very shortly , whether for instance they are being advertised or bulletined; what is their status? MRS. PRiCE: Two are being filled in the very near future, we are working on them now. MR. DOERN: Apparently, in the last couple of years - well, I guess in the 1975 and 76 period of our administration, there were some substantial grants given for libraries .

The figures I have indicate that there was a 70 percent increase in provincial expenditures, and that there's been quite a fall-off in the amount of money available, for example, I guess if we look at the figures we're looking at here - $2,019,000 compared to $1,978,000 - you're looking at a $40,000 increase , I suppose on $2 million.

So it looks like about 2 percent, and I was just wondering whether , again, given the increasing cost of books - we're getting cuts in other expenditures, and cuts in grant assistance, and slight increases in salaries, and so on - whether the Minister ... you know the Minister, the other day, made the statement, which I think all of us applauded, that she was going to attempt to insure that the cultural organizations and culture in its broadest sense would not fall under the ax of restraint; and she was going to try to protect her department to that extent.

But it would seem in this area that the ax has fallen, and that the Minister has been unable to find the necessary funds; and I'm just wondering if she is not concerned about the lack of funding for libraries, not only in the city of Winnipeg and in this building, but throughout the province, if she would like to comment on that? MRS. PRICE: I don't deny that there is a problem in the library system, but I would like to say that it is a problem that has existed for a number of years now. There were four major studies done . in the previous government's era, all of which were rejected by Cabinet.

It doesn't solve the situation , but we are having a very hard look at it right now to see what we can do with what we have to work with to solve a lot of the problems MR. DOERN: Well, I sympathize with the minister , because I think that when hard-nose Cabinet Ministers gather around the table this is an area they feel very comfortable about swinging their axe and so, I think the minister is going have to really dig in to get money from her colleagues. For instance, I understand that in northern Manitoba, for example , there were no increases in grants in the past year.

Two out of the six libraries, I should say two of the six received no grant increases. Throughout the province, thooughout the province there's an imbalance between provincial and municipal funding and the municipalities are funding two-thirds of the total, or twice the provincial rate. I wonder whether the minister is going to re-examine that per capita grant structure and attempt to provide more funds to relieve some of the burden of the municipalities.

I also understand that we have one of the lowest rates of provincial per capita funding in the nation, so I would ask the minister whether she intends to try to even out that funding - either take up the majority of the funding for libraries, or at least to get it to a 50-50 arrangement because it appears to be out of whack at the present. MRS. PRICE: Yes, there was a $25,000 grant given to some of the libraries up north and you're referring to a couple of them that didn 't get any, the smaller ones, are you not?

We are looking in to see what we can do about it as I say, with funds limited, but we do realize we have a problem and I'm the first one to admit to you, and hopefully, we will be able to rectify it. 1867

Tuesday, April 3, 1979 MR. DOERN: There's just a couple of other points I have here. One is that there was a recommendation in Graeme Haig's report on lotteries, perhaps I could read a

section of his report . and ask the minister to comment. He seemed to be impressed with the submissions of the public library groups, and he said this in one

section of his report, Page 85, I believe. He said, "Certainly the claim for financial assistance to libraries appeared valid and compelling and deserves serious consideration by those responsible for the ongoing funding of libraries in the province. I would be prepared also, to recommend that libraries be considered eligible, if they are not already eligible, for funding from lottery funds for special projects and for special capital equipment grants which would not in the ordinary course of events be available through municipal and provincial tax-based funding." : I assume, Mr.

Chairman , that the problem here is that the pie is only so large, but nevertheless , if the libraries could gain access to lottery funds, it might solve some of their capital and operating requirements, and I was just wondering whether the minister supports Mr. Haig's recommendation about allowing them to access lottery funds . MRS. PRICE: Well, there is a study being done right now, Mr. Chairman, of the Haig report.

I think that to funnel some of the funds into libraries has a great deal of merit but I can't comment on it before it has been studied thoroughly through the Cabinet and the decision made of the Cabinet. MR. SPEAKER: The Member for Burrows . MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Chairman, the minister has indicated that this year's appropriation has provision for 21 SMYs, is that correct? MRS. PRICE: Yes. MR. HANUSCHAK: Does the salary item of $255,400 - that reflects provision for the 21 SMYs? MRS. PRICE: Yes, it does. MR.

HANUSCHAK: So in fact, over the years, there has been a reduction of the number of SMYs from 77-78 to the present, because in 77-78 the latter portion of that fiscal year, during which the minister was a member of this government, there were 24 SMYs approved. MRS. PRICE: That is correct. There is a reduction of three . MR.

HANUSCHAK: Well could the minister then comment on or at least give us, say a progress report on the prestmt status of regionalization of libraries and the re-organization of library facilities accompanying the regionalization, because I have the recollection that a good portion of the staff time and effort was directed in that particular area in assisting municipalities in organizing their libraries on a regional basis. MRS.

PRICE: We are doing quite an in depth study on this; there will be some rulings will have to be changed in order to qualify some of the libraries to be able to be under a regional program, and we are working on that right now and hope to have something in the very future where it will be much more sophisticated than it is at present. MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, do I understand the minister to stay that pending the outcome, the co~pletion of the in depth study, that the move toward regionalization is at a standstill? MRS.

PRICE: It's at a standstill right now, but as I say, we're looking at it objectively and we're going to be having them more regionalized than they are now - that's what I'm saying. MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, could the minister then indicate what some of her concerns are about the plan and the program moving toward regionalization, why the in depth study, why the review? MRS. PRICE: Well, the present formula discourages the larger libraries and this is what we are looking at with an eye towards changing some of these regulations, so that we can embrace the smaller libraries and have them worked into a regional setup .

We've got that in the works right 1868 .. • ...

.. .. Tuesday, April 3, 1979 now, and it shouldn't be too long before we have something quite satisfactory to all concerned. MR. HANUSCHAK: Can we expect this in depth study to be completed during this fiscal year andhaave some announcement made to the libraries as to the government's policy with respect to regionalization? MRS. PRICE: Yes, there will be recommendations made and it'll certainly be in the next couple of months . MR. HANUSCHAK: Could the minister comment upon the lending, I've forgotten the correct term, I think it's the lending service via the mails from the Provincial Library.

Has that service been curtailed to the people in Manitoba in any way? MRS. PRICE: There's 6,900 members, it has been reduced but not curtailed. MR. HANUSCHAK: It has been reduced, yes. MRS. PRICE: Yes. MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes. Is it correct , Mr. Chairman, that the only ones who can take advantage of this mail lending service, are those who had been taking advantage of it in the past; in other words, those whose names already appear on the mailing list? But if someone not previously taking advantage of this service would want to get on the mailing service, that individual will be denied that right. MRS.

PRICE: They have been, at this present time, but this is being rectified also. MR. HANUSCHAK: I'm sorry? MRS. PRICE: I say they have been denied to the people that haven't been on the list in recent times , but we are changing that too, so everybody will have the opportunity to get on the mailing list. MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, could the Minister then indicate, as she said that they have been ... who has been denied? MRS. PRICE: The people that haven't been on the list at present, but there are 200,000 that had the opportunity to be on the list, that are on the mailing list. MR.

HANUSCHAK: Yes, how does the Minister determine who will be allowed this mail lending privilege, and who will not be allowed it? MRS. PRICE: The people that are at present not served by regional libraries. MR. HANUSCHAK: So that means that if one is served by a regional library , and if that regional library does not have a particular book that a borrower wishes to borrow, that simply by reason of his geographic location, he will not be able to borrow it from a provincial library because he lives within a regional library area. MRS.

PRICE: I think that he can have access to the books simply by writing into our library. MR. HANUSCHAK: Writing to where? MRS. PRICE: Into the libraries; right. The people that aren't under the regional library that want a book, or the people that are, you say, that are in the regional libraries that want a book; if they can't obtain it out there, I am sure that they will be able to be serviced in the city . IMR. HANUSCHAK: Serviced in the city ; by the Winnipeg Public Library , is that .. . ? IMRS. PRICE: No, from ours. 1869

Tuesday, April 3, 1979 MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(a)(5)(a)-pass; 3.(a)(5)(b)-pass - the Honourable Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, just one small point there . I think the Minister will recall that there was a brief made to her asking for, I think, greater assistance for the visually handicapped. There are, ' apparently, some cassettes.

Apparently, our administration bought some 700 cassettes which can be distributed to those people who are legally blind, etc., and that I think she was approached to, I suppose, do more in this area by the CNIB, so that people who have that particular handicap can, I suppose, hear novels and other things read to them via the tape recorders, etc. So I was just wondering if she has any plans to incorporate that or expand that in the public library service? MRS. PRICE: Yes, we do. We did have, as you recall, $50,000 this government donated, and cassette machines, to the CNIB for the legally blind .

Now we are enlarging on the other people who have the seeing problems. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(a)(5)(b)-pass; 3.(a)(5)(c)-pass - the Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR. CHERNIACK: Before we pass (5)(c), Mr. Chairman , I notice a bare increase in the Grant Assistance; it's so minimal that I would not - it's probably a reduction - could the Honourable Minister indicate the amount actually expended under this item in this last year? MRS. PRICE: For establishment grants for 1978-79 was $60,000 and it's reduced for 1979-80 to $52,000; public library grants is $1,563,000 in 1978-79; 1979-80 is $1,593,000.00.

The grants to library associations has remained the same: $3.5. MR. CHERNIACK: Well, Mr. Chairman , the reduction of grants I suppose is something that the Minister can explain, but considering the last increase in costs such as has already been discussed, how does the Minister justify what I believe I can honestly call a reduction in the grants to the public libraries? MRS. PRICE: I guess I can justify it and say that we haven't got the funds right now. We are getting a formula established that we hope we'll be able to rectify some of these problems.

We are very well aware of acute problems, but as I mentioned earlier before the Member for St. Johns came in, we inherited a lot of these problems, so I think you should be a little compassionate on and the fact that we can't overturn all the problems in eighteen months. Your government had four major studies done and they were taken to your Cabinet , and all four were rejected, so you know, the problem didn't just start and we are well aware of the problems and we are hoping desperately that we will get it rectified but it doesn't happen overnight. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Chairman, I'm sorry I didn 't hear earlier reports by this Minister , although I have all the compassion I can possibly muster , I have difficulty in understanding her statement that's, one: "We haven't got the money"; two : "We inherited problems". I know the Minister hasn't been in this job for seventeen months , but her governmen t has been, and I think it's high time she and her fellow party members would learn that they have t stand on their own feet and they have to be responsible for their own decisions without reverting back to previous governments.

I must tell her, I have the compassion to inform her that the NDP government in 1970 did the same kind of thing that the Minister is saying, with the equal amount of justification in their own minds, and it's really not very productive. So possibly the Honourable Minister will indicate what she means by: "We don't have the funds ", and how that relates to the prob lems that they are dealing with. What problems, in relation to the grants to public libraries? MRS. PRICE: As I mentioned, the problem is that we just haven't got enough money right now.

Another thing that we are doing is trying to make a better use of what we have now, both from the staff point of view and from the books, etc., that we have; the setup that we have we're trying to use them to a much more efficient manner than we feel has been done, and until we get more money there is not too much that we can do other than our best, and that's what we're doing. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman , again, the Minister seems to tie the lack of money with making better use of what is available.

Is she suggesting that if she had more money she wouldn't make the effort to see to it that better use is made of what there is available now? 1870 , .. ..

Tuesday, April 3, 1979 tiiRS. PRICE: No, I'm not intimating that at all. '"R. CHERNIACK: Well, I am glad that I was able to help the Minister separate her problems, which seems to be that they are trying to make better use of what they have now, and I would ask just what specifically they are trying to do? '"RS. PRICE: Well, I think we're doing the same as we have been doing in a number of other departments in government. We are rearranging them and making better use of the staff, the e1quipment, the product that we have to work with, we're working on it.

Our consultation services, • Clur cataloging, we're working on all these different areas to streamline them, to be more efficient for the people of Manitoba. '"R. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, it is becoming apparent to me that I am not clear on this item. I wish the Minister would help me. I read Grant Assistance to Public Libraries to deal with grants atnd I don't the extent to which that has to do with cataloging or staff or anything else, that the Minister related to.

So I apologize, obviously I missed out on something not having been here through most of the discussion' but I would like clarification what grant assistance of over $1.5 million has to do with these speeches of cataloging and staff? IIMRS. PRICE: Well our formula went up in the northern regions from $2 per capita to $2.50 per capita. Just last week we gave some grants to the library trustees and to the Public Libraries so we are doing our best to help them. We know there are problems and again I'll reiterate, they're not all our problems and you don't change problems overnight. IIIR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Chairman, I'm sorry to be pressing this but I do not understand the Minister's explanations. We are dealing with the fact that under the grant assistance item, 3. (a)(5)(

c) there is an apparent levelling, a plateauing, and taking into account the increased costs to libraries there is an actual reduction in grants. Now she has . mentioned cataloging and she has mentioned staff and now she is telling us of increased payments and formula in the north . Now I cannot relate and I admit my ignorance, I cannot relate what she is saying about problems with firstly increasing the formula and secondly talking about problems relating to cataloging, staff or whatever. What is the connection? Let me ask it differently.

Under this item that we are dealing with, (5)(c), is there any salary component involved, is there anything other than grants involved in this item? MRS. PRICE: The grant formula firstly is tied to the local revenue base and we also have the same number of libraries now as we had last year. That is why there isn't much of a change in the amount of money. IIIIR. CHERNIACK: So under (5) (

c) there is nothing other than actual g ants . MRS. PRICE: That's right. IIIIR. CHERNIACK: . . . there's no cataloging, there's no staff. Well then I misunderstood the Minister because I thought she was talking about improvements that she's trying to bring about but the improvements only have to do in this case with assessing the amount of a grant and issuing a cheque. So I don't quite see that that explanation that I received which I didn't understand is a!Pplicable and maybe that's why I didn't understand it. • Well now we're dealing with specific grants.

The Minister says there are the same number of libraries and the grants are related to their local base. Now all that is very well, but I'm am still saying that we are aware that increased costs must be tremendous, not only in salaries and maintenance but also in the actual purchase of materials, and I heard Mr. Doern referring to the differential in foreign exchange and probably other items. I don't think that it's either a s~cret nor unknown that costs of books and periodicals has gone up tremendously.

In the light of that, is the Minister trying to explain that there is no need for increased grants or is she prepared to rest h43r entire explanation on lack of money? MRS. PRICE: I don't say that there isn't any need for extra grants or that there is more needed. I don't imply that at all and I don't mean to. My department also works and helps to supplement their grants through their services our department gives to the different libraries. That helps to supplement them with their grants. And our formula is tied by regulation, too. Isn't it the same as it was in your time?

The formula still remains the same. 1871

Tuesday, April 3, 1979 MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, one doesn't blame regulations for not doing something - one has control over the regulations and if the Minister has told us that she has tried to change the regulations and floundered somewhere the I could understand it but to blame it on regulations, one government person blaming the other government doesn't satisfy the responses that I hope to get. Now she says there are other supplements, now are there other moneys paid to public libraries in other lines of the Estimates other than (5)(c)? MRS.

PRICE: What I said was that our department offers their services so there is an indirect benefit to them from the services that our department extends to the libraries. MR. CHERNIACK: Well is that different or more than last year and two years ago? MRS. PRICE: Do you mean the help from the departments? MR. CHERNIACK: Yes, the amount of . MRS. PRICE: It's about the same. MR. CHERNIACK: It's about the same. So . MRS. PRICE: Well right now I would like to tell the Member for St. Johns that we are trying to find ways to increase the per capita grant . We're working on that now.

We realize there is a problem ; we're quite aware of it. But, as I think your Member for Churchill said today, an old phrase, "you can't get blood out of a stone", and we just don't have the dollars right now. So we are having to find ways and means, but we do realize that there is a problem. MR. CHERNIACK: I want to make a comment now. I don't think I want to press the Minister any further. She says you can't get blood out of a stone.

The stone must be in the hearts and the pockets of the people that she deals with daily throughout her working days and that must mean Treasury Board and that must mean her colleagues on the Treasury Bench. Now she says that she is trying to get the grant formula increased . If that were the case, where will she get the money? Is there money within this vote that she is trying to get us to approve that it will make it possible to increase the grant formula or is she trying to get the grant formula increased ?

Now I know she has to be dealing with that stone which is her colleagues or are her colleagues, those stones which are her colleagues, and if she gets the grant formula to change, where will she get the money? MRS. PRICE: The stone I am referring to certainly isn't my colleagues. It's the moneys that are available in this province province at the time. I wasn't referring to the Treasury Board or my colleagues . MR. CHERNIACK: Well, Mr. Chairman, that's the point.

This Minister has joined her other Ministers, and it's perfectly logical that she should in saying that there is a stone in the province which won't give her money for libraries. I I want to challenge that very substantially ; I want to tell her that I believe that most people approve of educational programs are desirous of fostering educational cultural programs and that it is not a reflection of what the province would like to do to improve libraries, I think especially in the rural areas. And, Mr.

Chairman , you should be well aware of it, that people are becoming more and more conscious of the advantages of public libraries, of the contributions to their whole style of life, to be able to have available to them library facilities on a greater and greater basis. I would venture to say, Mr. Chairman, that the office of the Minister is full of requests for more and more help to public libraries and it is not the people of Manitoba nor the Province of Manitoba that have told her that we are stones and will not contribute. It is people within the budget-making process that pass Estimates.

The people who were prepared to give a 17 percent increase to horse breeders are the same people who told her, there's no money 1872

.. Tuesday, April 3, 1979 available to maintain the same level and I'm saying that advisedly, knowing that it's approximately the same amount of money, but it must be a deterioration of level of contribution if there 's no . recognition of the increased powers . I point out, Mr. Chairman, that the Minister of Finance, who made the statement when he introduced his Estimates that there 's some, I think , 5.6 or 5.8 increase in this year's budget over last, and I think then we were able to show that there's another 2 percent that could be justifiably shown as an increase in the Estimates.

And yet, when it comes to giving grants to outside bodies - to public libraries in the tradition that has been extant for many years - that there is no increase whatsoever, in spite of the increase in costs. And therefore, I would have to say that this government, and the Minister as spokesman for this government, places a lower priority on the public library services, than they do on other things, and I can't help but zero in on horse breeders who did get 17 percent because, and the only explanation that I understood the Minister to make, was that the horse breeding industry produces revenue to Manitoba.

I sort of resent the fact that public libraries are put in a lower category than horse breeders or money-producing items. I am now dealing with that aspect of the Minister's department which is cultural , and not tourism. MRS. PRICE: I don't whether the Member for St. Johns was here also when I explained that we are having quite an extensive study made in our department with an eye to having more regional libraries.

I think you'll find that when this happens, instead of a bunch of little ones trying to make it on their own, when they get under one regional library that it will be much more sophisticated and will be iroving the . services all around. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, I want to stop, and yet I feel I'm being . .. MRS. PRICE: Feel free. MR. CHERNIACK: . .. almost drawn in. Yes, I do feel free to continue . MRS. PRICE: I mean to stop. MR.

CHERNIACK: I'm sure the Minister wouldn't want to stop me, so I do feel free to continue and comment that one of the problems of sophistication and setting up a more elaborate method of dealing with a . service like libraries is that a regional library, having to serve a larger district with one central place, might become a little more remote for the people, and I don't know that I can be guaranteed that setting up a regional library will put more books in homes, or in the hands of readers. I don't know that.

I do believe that right now - it has been proven to me time and again that we have such a good interlocking arrangement between libraries, amongst libraries in ~ his province, that it doesn 't take long to get hold of a book. If there's only one book in the Province of Manitoba I know that our legislative library will find that book and produce it very quickly. So that there is the ability, now, for books to be transferred and save costs involved in increasing 1the number of books. But I don't know whether regional libraries will increase the number of books and the number of hands into which those books come .

And if so, I doubt very much. if it'll cost less. I think it'll be a greater service. The Minister talked of a bunch of little libraries. I would think, Mr. Chairman, not even knowing what town you yourself reside in, that if there's one of those little "bunches", or one library is part of a bunch , that the number of books in that library would be much less than there would be available through a regional library set-up. But I don't believe it will cost less t:o provide that. Mr.

Chairman, now that I can confirm in my mind that Grunthal is your town, I'm just wondering the extent to which even your town has a library, little or large as it is? But regardless of that, I'm not sure that I could be guaranteed that a library in Emerson, or in Vita, or somewhere else, is going to supply the people in Grunthal with the books that one reads other than reference books, at a lesser cost . IIIlA. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lac du Bonnet. IIIlA. USKIW: Yes, Mr. Chairman. The Minister indicated that they were doing studies on the possibility of giving support to regional library groups.

What is the status of the various regional associations that have been established and have requested provincial in-put in the last year or two? Just where are they with their requests for grants and assistance? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. 1873

Tuesday, April 3, 1979 MRS. PRICE: Can I take that question as notice and answer you before we're through here today. I'd like you to repeat it. .MR. USKIW: Yes. My understanding is, Mr. Chairman, that there are a number of regional library associations, or something along that line - maybe they 're not called just that precisely - that have been asking the province for assistance in regionalizing library services. I would like to know just where that's at.

In particular, I would like to refer to a couple of calls that I received from the EastMan library Association, who have been pursuing the department for some period of time, but so far, as I understand it, have gotten nowhere with their request; and if we could have a specific on that one as well. -(Interjection)- No, well, it's general and in particular. It's not ... it's all of eastern Manitoba. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(a)(5)(c)-pass . 3.(b)(1)-pass. The Member for Elmwood . MR.

DOERN: There's one area I wanted to cover here with the Minister, and that concerns something I know is very dear to the heart of Miss Bayer, and that is the endangered ... well, the ad says "spaces"; I was thinking of "species", but the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce, close to Portage and Main - that is a gorgeous building . I mean, that is a 60-65 year-old structure. Beside it is the Bank of Hamilton.

I have never seen the Bank of Hamilton , but I have seen the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce and I think anybody who's been inside that building knows that the thought of that being demolished is almost too much to bear. Because once that building goes, if that building ever goes, we will never see the likes of it again in this province. And there is no doubt in my mind that it would be expensive to renovate.

We threw out some wild estimates on it a number of years ago, but I'm sure that the minimum amount of money to put that building into shape would be a quarter of a million - and a more realistic figure would be $1 million or better . I don't know what figures are being talked about . There isn't much in the way of functional space. There are a number of floors - small floors on one side. And then there 's this enormous, beautiful vault or central banking hall with Grecian columns and a beautiful ceiling, etc., etc. It really is a sight for sore eyes.

I was just wondering whether the Minister has taken any position on that structure; whether she has been approached, whether she has volunteered, whether she is familiar with the situation. Because I think that it is of such a special character, and such a precious resource , that everyth ing possible should be done to stop its demolition, first of all, and secondly, that the province should play a role in renovating that facility and making a contribution - financial - seeing that it is used in some sense and is available to citizens and tourists to view, because it is really an aesthetic and gorgeous building.

I just wonder if the Minister could comment on that. MRS. PRICE: I haven't been approached, but I have been kept informed of what is going on, and it is in Winnipeg 's hands right now. I understand, and I read in the paper too, that the bank is trying to see if it's at all possible to save it, and I certainly agree with you that it does have aesthetic value, and it should be saved if at all possible. MR.

DOERN: Well, then I would simply urge the Minister - I know that Miss Byyer alone would have all the necessary Information - but I would urge the Minister to take an active interest in the project, and to attempt to join with the city of Winnipeg, and anybody else - the historical society, any othe r interested groups - to save that bank . And even if it costs the province several hundred thousand dollars to do so, I think that, in the years to come, people will thank you for that endeavour. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Burrows. MR.' HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Chairman . Does this item include museum grants?

Under Historic ~ Resources. MRS. PRICE: Pardon me, is what under grants? MR. HANUSCHAK: If I may explain, Mr. Chairman, at one time, in fact, when the Minister became part of the government, museum grants operating assistance to approximately 62 museums was included under Grant Assistance paid out of this appropriation. Is that still contained in there? MRS. PRICE: Yes, it has been continued. 1874

Tuesday, April 3, 1979 MR. HANUSCHAK: Thank you. ould the Minister indicate the number of staff man years in this· branch? MRS. PRICE: Twelve. MR. HANUSCHAK: Twelve staff man years. Now, it would seem, or rather, I would want to ask the Minister this question, that at one time, well two years ago, other expenditures under this appropriation amounted to $157,000

whereas now it's reduced to $64,000 - it's cut down to less than 50 percent, to about 40 percent of what it was in 1977-78 - and at that time a good portion of other expenditures was devoted to professional fees for various archaeological architectural and historical projects.

Then looking at the other expenditures: printing and stationery supplies; printing of reports; travel; cost of plaques; etc., it would seem that there is very little left in that $64,000 appropriation to enable this branch to do the type of work which I think that it ought to do, and must do, in order to do that which it's charged with doing; namely, to preserve, protect, restore, reconstruct, commemorate and interpret significant themes in the history of the province in a balanced, well co-ordinated manner, in order to engender a respect and understanding for the groups, individuals, places and events that have shaped Manitoba.

MRS. PRICE: Weil, ttie reduction is because we had a choice of reducing either staff or some of the programs that were going on in expenditures, and we chose the latter. MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Chairman, so that leads me to the next question.

If this branch has had a very serious cutback in the appropriation for archaeological research and study, then it leads me to the question: What does the increased staff from 7 to 12 - what does it do if it doesn't have the funds to do the types of things that I've just listed, which are related to the preservation, protection, restoration, etc., of places and matters and items of historic significance? MRS. PRICE: In the previous year, they didn't have to account for contract or term employees, which we do now.

There is no reduction in the staff, it's exactly the same number; 7 permanent, and 5 contract and term . MR. HANUSCHAK: Seven permanent, and 5 contract and term . MRS. PRICE: Yes, and it's the same as it was. MR. HANUSCHAK: But, Mr. Chairman, I don't believe that that answers my question with respect to ... well let me ask the Minister then; what is her appropriation for professional fees in this branch? MRS. PRICE: $32,800.00. MR. HANUSCHAK: So that has been reduced by more than 50 percent, from $76,400 in 1977-78, to $32,000, so here again we have evidence, Mr.

Chairman, of a reduction in the branch's capacity to do the type of work that it was assigned to do, and that it is expected to do by the province of Manitoba. MRS. PRICE: That is correct. MR. HANUSCHAK: That is correct. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(b)(1)-pass; 3.(b)(2)-pass - the Member for Burrows. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, before we pass 3.(b)(2); no, I have no question . MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(b)(2)-pass; 3.(b)(3)-pass - the Member for Burrows. MR. HANUSCHAK: On 3.(b)(3), Mr. Chairman, on Grant Assistance. In 1977-78, approximately 62 museums in the province of Manitoba received operating assistance of $100,000.00.

Now, it's been reduced by 32 percent, to $68,000, over that two year period, despite the inflationary pressures and everything else occurring which no doubt , increases their operating costs. Could the Minister 1875

Tuesday, April 3, 1979 explain the rationale for this drattic reduction in the assistance to museums? MRS. PRICE: You're going back to 1977, aren't you? MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, I certainly am, Mr. Chairman . In 1977-78, and these were the Estimates that the Minister inherited when she became government in the middle of a fiscal year. The appropriation was $100,000, so there was a reduction of 32 percent, over that two year period .

In fact, I'm sorry, reading the column on the left-hand side, there was a reduction of 32 percent . in one year, because it was $68,000 last year and remained at the same level for this year, which is even worse. MRS. PRICE: There's a request being made right now for a grant of $50,000 from the Lottery Trust Funds. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(b)(3)-pass - the Member for Burrows . MR.

HANUSCHAK: Now, in 1977-78, paid out of Grant Assistance , out of this appropriation, in addition to grants paid to museums, there was another beneficiary - another two beneficiaries - one was a Manitoba Historical Society, and the other the Historical Society of St. Boniface. Is the province still supporting those two organizations , and if it is, out of what appropriation or is it not? MRS. PRICE: Yes, they are being supported, and out of Lotteries . MR. HANUSCHAK: That, too, is out of Lotteries. MRS. PRICE: Yes. MR.

HANUSCHAK: Could the Minister give us a progress . report on the Canadian Register of Heritage Properties, which is a cost-shared program with the .. . no, in fact, well I'm not sure about now, but it was two years ago 100 percent recoverable from the federal government. MRS. PRICE: The federal government dropped it, it's not being funded at all by federal funds. MR. HANUSCHAK: Why has it been dropped ; why did the federal government drop it? Did it give a reason? MRS. PRICE: I don't know what reason they had, but they did drop it. MR. HANUSCHAK: So the Minister doesn't know the reason.

Is the Register of Heritage Properties being continued by the province? MRS. PRICE: Yes, it is. MR. HANUSCHAK: And that is paid for out of where, out of this appropriation? MRS. PRICE: It comes out of part of our Capital appropriation and part of the acquisition. MR. HANUSCHAK: Ah, so then that raises another question - we'll deal with it, I suppose, in more detail when we come to it, but may I ask the Minister this question at this time; will we find some staff man years under Resolution No. 108? MRS. PRICE: Yes we will. MR. HANUSCHAK: Thank you, we'll deal with that item later . MR.

CHAIRMAN: 3.(b)(3)-pass ; Resolution 107: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a Sum not exceeding $6,824,100 for Tourism and Cultural Affairs and Historic Resources-pass . 4. Resolution 108 - the Member for Burrows . 1876

Tuesday, April 3, 1979 MR. HANUSCHAK: Now I'll repeat the question which I put to the Minister just a minute ago. Well, I'll give her two questions: One, could she give a breakdown of the expenditures under this item for last year, and for this year; and also explain in a bit more detail, the answer that she gave me a moment ago, that there are some staff man years contained under this particular item as related to the Canadian Register of Heritage Properties, which at one time was under the previous item? MRS.

PRICE: As I mentioned earlier , the federal government is not doing any funding and our department is trying to fund and operate the register themselves. MR. HANUSCHAK: ·Now my other question was, could the Minister give us a breakdown of the expenditures of this appropriation for the fiscal year just ended and the projected expenditures for the fiscal year ending 1980? And also explain, here again, about a 20 percent reduction? MRS.

PRICE: There's Maison Turenne and Bohemier House at $75,000; the Regional Historic Sites, $40,000; the Van Horn Rail Car, $20,000; and Stabilizat ion of Historic Structu res, $20,000; for a total of $155,000.00. MR. HANUSCHAK: l'r:n sorry, that was for what year? MRS. PRICE: 1979-80, that's what you asked for, '80. MR. HANUSCHAK: But, Mr. Chairman, the Minister's Estimates show $618,000 for Acquisition/Construction of Physical Assets, so $155,000 really takes care of 25 percent of the $618,000.00. There's still $450,000 to be accounted for. MRS.

PRICE: Well, in the Cultural Affairs: the Museum of Man and Nature there is $200,000; multi-cultural capital grant $70,000; the Centennial Centre Corporation $100,000 and miscellaneous capital projects $93,600 for a total of $463,600.00. MR. HANUSCHAK: That is what the Minister plans on doing during this fiscal year? MRS. PRICE: That's right. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Chairman, the Member for Burrows also asked, what was the breakdown of expenditures last year; that's one thing, and the other is: are all of these expenditures of a capital nature, that is, for structural improvement? MRS. PRICE: For structural identification. MR. CHERNIACK: Structural what? MRS. PRICE: Identification, and for improvements too. MR. CHERNIACK: For the large items: Museum; Centennial Concert Hall; are t~ey for physical improvements? .. MRS. PRICE: Yes. MR. CHERNIACK: Fine. Mr. Chairman, I'm afraid you're about to pound that gavel.

Could we ask then, that if the Minister does not have the information now, that we get it at the next meeting, the breakdown of last year's expenditures under this item? MRS. PRICE: Yes, I can get it for him. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. 1877

Tuesday, April 3, 1979 MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I was hoping and of course it is now obvious it isn't possible to finish this afternoon, and I realize that the Minister has a commitment this evening, so I was just wondering if she could indicate where we go from here? If she has a commitment that is to be fulfilled, then .we would certainly be agreeable to not proceeding with the committee tonight , and to go at it tomorrow and/or Thursday if that is necessary to free the Minister for a commitment - I don't know what it is but I know it is important - and I know that she wants to attend it.

So I think she has every right , and we would be agreeable to postponing the conclusion of the Estimates tonight. However, if she wants to proceed tonight, then we can do so, but I would urge her to express her personal preference and we would accede to it. MRS. PRICE: If I tell you that the answers that I have promised the members here that I will give them to them, would that suffice, and that we could finish my Estimates now? MR. DOERN: I'm not following the Minister. MRS. PRICE: I said, I have been asked for some questions from these people . MR.

DOERNi No, first of all I believe we're precluded from continu ing but my own estimate of what will occur is that there probably will be a debate for an hour or two on the Minister's Salary, so therefore I believe, we're looking at an evening or an afternoon still to go, so I would say to the Minister that, you know , we can continue this evening which means she would not be able to fulfill a previous obligation , but we'd be more than happy to not proceed tonight to work in the Health Committee Estimates and to commence tomorrow and see what happens . MRS. PRICE: No, we'll finish tonight .

I'm sorry that you didn't do like we had talked about , however, you didn 't, and we'll be back at eight. MR. CHAIRMAN: Gentlemen , in accordance with Rule 19(2), the hour of 4:30p.m. having arrived, I am interrupting the proceedings of the Committee for Private Members' Hour and will return at 8:00 p.m. SUPPLY - HEALTH AND COMMUNITY SERVICES MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. Abe Kovnats(Radisson): I would draw the honour able members ' attention to Page 48 in the Main Estimates, Health and Community Services. We are on Resolution No. 64, Social Services and Community Health, (

k) Rehabilitation Services to the Disabled:

(1) Salaries-pass, the Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. LAURENT L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I rise on a question of personal privilege and of course I want to refer you to the action of some of the backbenchers in yesterday's Committee, Mr. Chairman, and I'm not referring to the heckling. Maybe there 's too much heckling being done, I certainly do my share but I found that most of the heckling has been done in fun by all members of the House. I am referring to something else. Now, Mr. Chairman, I don 't want to exaggerate .

I've been here 20 years and I know that there is nothing as frustrating and as boring as the role of the backbencher. And I know that there has been some drinking over the period of years by all parties and that is being done and I don't object to that that much. But, Mr. Chairman, usually when this is done the people stay in the Caucus Room and they come in for a vote or if they can come in, they don 't stay that long and usually their colleague takes them out. Now yesterday there is no doubt a few wouldn't have passed any breathalizer test . And, Mr. Chairman, I think this is getting serious .

I don't want to name anybody, as I said I don't want to exaggerate that, I don't want to say that they're not good members but, Mr. 'Chairman , I don't think that we have the right to let the role of the Committee or to let any members disrupt the work of the Committee. If we do that, what's going to happen . It's going to go down and down and it's going to get worse.

When this is done I think that the members should leave the Committee because I don't think you can mix liquor and· the work of the people of Manitoba or that you can look at important things such as a department review, something that we feel is important like the dental program of yesterday. As 1 say, it's not the heckling, Mr. Chairman, I'm not saying that that is good - if there's any guilt on that I'm one of the guiltiest members of the House.

I've always felt that my role and the role of most of the people was in fun but yesterday as I say was disrupting the work of the Committee and that cannot , and I repeat , Mr. Chairman , that cannot be condoned and it can not continue. 1 thin k that all the members of all Parties should realize that and I think that there is 1878

, Tuesday, April 3, 1979 a time to celebrate and there's a time to be serious and to look after the affairs of Manitoba. Mr. Chairman, before we start on this item, the Minister of Health has said that he was going to give some answers on the dental program yesterday and I would like to remind him of that before · we embark on the other program. IYR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. IIIlA. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, there are one or two specific items that the Member for St. Johns asked to be tabled and I don't see any difficulty in tabling them.

I have asked for them to be copied and made available for tabling in the Committee and they will be tabled as soon as I receive them from my office. The other questions I believe were answered to the best of my ability. There may be still one answer to come from the Director of Dental Services in the department. He's not here at the moment and if there is such an answer still to come that will have to wait for his supplying me with that mathematical information and I'll supply it to the Member for St. Boniface at that time. MR. CHAIRMAN: (k)

(1) Salaries-pass, the Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry that I was slow in rising. I wanted to ask the Honourable Minister if he could indicate to me which item in the Estimates would deal with his brief presented on retirement age and pension benefits and if we could be assured that we will get that material before we deal with that item? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. IAR. SHERMAN: Well if there is no specified item under the the Estimates we can deal with it Linder my salary, Mr. Chairman . I don't know of a specific spot in which one would want to slot it.

It's an outline of this government's objectives up to this point in time for retirement age policies and programs. Although it is not officially a White Paper, it is in the form of that kind of document for discussion and debate. I would suggest it could be discussed under my salary if the honourable members Opposite want to challenge it or debate it at all. 1\IR. CHAIRMAN: . (1)-pass, the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks. 1\IR. SAUL MILLER: I wonder whether the Minister could give us some information to start off.

The amount shown last year in the salaries in the print was $130.2, it's now shown at $134.8, I assume that the increase is due to the general salary increase . Was that amount underspent or was it overspent? Could we have a report on that? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . IIIlA. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, that amount shown for last year will will be underspent. There was an administrative officer's position which was vacant and had been vacant for some time and that position has been abolished so that the total complement in staff man years comes down from 8.5 to 7.5. NIR. MILLER: Well, Mr.

Chairman, then am I to assume from that that if there is a staff decrease from , what is it - 8.5 to 7.5 staff man years, is there a diminution of service in this area? I'm concerned about this because it is an area which I think everyone recognizes has to be developed ., rather than a retraction take place or a reduction take place. Looking at some of the other items it would appear that there's actually a decrease in some areas and in others there's a decrease , to all intents and purposes, or in fact because it doesn't mflect the natural increase due to inflation .

So that, my concern is that in an area such as this, which provides rehabilitation services and assistance to the physically and mentally disab.led, that this government should be sort of drawing back an essential service such as this . I know the C.N.I.B., which I believe is one of the agencies that's involved here, has expressed Ctlncern already that they have accumulated a considerable debt over the years - I think their d1abt today is about $100,000, that's accumulated and they have no idea yet where they stand for thle coming year. Their year starts January 1st.

They still don't know where they stand as far as thle government is concerned. They did receive money last year, and if that figure they indicated was not increased - I think it was $435,000 last year, which was not enough to cover their operations - that if that figure 1879

Tuesday, April 3, 1979 was not significantly increased, they indicated that, I think the word they used, as a matter of fact, was it would be a disaster if they were kept to that low, low level. And although I know that there's probably an amount shown in here for the C.N.I.B., I'm wondering whether, in fact, there is a substantial increase so the C.N.I.B. can continue to offer the services at the same level that they did in the past. What they had to do last year is cut out certain programs - certain aspects of their operation - and it has hurt their operation.

So I'm wondering whether the Minister could comment on this aspect of it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. SHERMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman . First of all, I want to assure the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks that there is no diminution of service , in answer to his question . This is not a service position and it's not a field service component that we're looking at. This is the central office staff, and what has happened is an administrative officer position , which was vacant, has simply been abolished.

In terms of service to the field, and service in the field, nothing has happened; there is no diminution and no reduction . But the administrative overlay is not as heavy as it was, and had not been for some time due to the fact that the position was vacant to begin with. Notwithstanding the figures that the honourable members see in front of them in the printed Estimates Book , Mr. Chairman, the fact is that in the more important of these areas, we were underspent in 1978-79 in relation to the voted amounts shown in the Estimates .

If you look at Financial Assistance, for example, we show a voted amount for the year ending 1979 of $1,855,000; in fact the operations accounted for an underexpenditure of approximately $250,000.00. And if you look ·at that particular area over a two-year period - the year 1977-78 as against the year we're coming into 1979-80 - we're looking in fact at an increase of approximately 50 percent in funding, Mr. Chairman. In 1977-78, the actual expended amount in Financial Assistance was $1, 167,000.00.

The amount we're budgeting for , as members can see, this coming year is $1,757,000, which is approximately $600,000 more - $590,000 more - and that represents an increase of 50 percent over two years. Admittedly, we're looking at two years here. But that's a significant advance, so that contrary to any suggestion of reduction or diminution of service, service and funding is being expanded . And if one looks just in terms of 1978-79 as against 1979-80, the actual increase that we're requesting under the Financial Assistance line is approximately $150,000 over what was spent in the year just ended . MR.

MILLER: Could the Minister at this time also, then , indicate what is meant by "Financial Assistance". The next line is External Agencies, and those would be grants to agencies such as the Crippled Children's Society , I suppose , or the C.N.I.B. But, what is actually the expenditure which tails under Financial Assistance? MR. SHERMAN: Financial Assistance , Mr. Chairman, has to do with fees for purchase of service for clients attending workshops; it has to do with subsistance, with transportation of clients, and with fees for the purchase of training for clients other than workshops .

We have about 1,075 disabled persons at any given time on any one day in the 24 rehabilitation workshops that are operated throughout the province , and fees for the purchase of service for those clients , and their subsistence and their transportation and their training, adds up to the component known and described here in the Estimates as Financial Assistance. MR. MILLER: Mr.

Chairman, I find it interesting that the Minister claims that there was an underexpenditure last year, and therefore his smaller request this year is justified , when in fact the C.N.I.B. has made it known that they've had to cut back on transportation.

The Minister noted "transportation" as one of the items covered under Financial Assistance, and the C.N.I.B., which is part of this operation has transportation for elderly blind people, has had to cut out that program because the grants made by government to the C.N.I.B. were inadequate, and they were forced to cut some programs - and one of the victims of that cut was a transportation for elderly people; to pick them up and take them various places. Another area C.N.I.B. had to cut back was the employment train ing service to aid people entering the labour force.

So if the Minister was underspent within that Appropriation, surely the C.N.I.B. should have been assisted so that as an agency, apart from government or in addition to government - the government's own operation , since they're covering people who fall into the category of disabled and physically disabled -then surely the funds were there to assist the C.N.I.B. to maintain their level of service they had achieved over the years, rather than forcing them to cut back. 1880 • - •

Tuesday, April 3, 1979 IMR. SHERMAN: Well, Mr. Chairman, we haven't got to the C.N.I.B. yet. We're talking about financial .assistance. In fact, I'm not sure that we're finished talking about salaries, yet. ,._ MEMBER: We passed salaries. IMR. SHERMAN: Did we pass salaries? We'll get to the C.N.I.B. under External Agencies . IMR. CHAIRMAN: (2)-pass. The Honourable Member for St. Vital. IMR.D. JAMES WALDING: Mr. Chairman, there was a matter that I wanted to discuss with the Minister that I haven't been able to find listed anywhere within these Estimates.

I'd like to ask him now whether this part that we're on, assistance to the physically and mentally disabled, would also include those who have a hearing disability? Would this come under this department or this Appropriation, and if not, which one, please? IMR. SHERMAN: No, Mr. Chairman, that doesn't come under this particular item. That's covered under Medical and Public Health, 3.(

b) in the Estimates: Medical Public Health Services, and the subject was dealt with or available for dealing with at that time. If the honourable member has particular concerns, he can certainly put them to me privately or on the Salary portion of these Estimates, but that particular subject doesn't come under the appropriation we are now discussing. · IWIR. CHAIRMAN: (2)-pass; (3)-pass - the Honourable Member for St. Boniface. IIIIR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, the Minister again compares apples and oranges, and it seems that ... I don't remember of any time that I've been in this House that we've done this.

The Minister is comparing not what was asked for last year and what he's asking for, for this year, which has always been the way that things were compared, and I don't mind that once in a while, the Minister for some reason, because you know that ... well, that money was all spent, and this is what we spend, so actually we're asking for more. But the Minister has done that on practically every item. Now, I think if we're going to go back on it, he might ... probably will tell me the same thing . I know that in 1977-78, they didn't spend the money that was voted, but we're talking about this item.

In 1977-78, it was voted for financial assistance, $3,246,000, and he is saying there is no decrease. Now he might tell me all that wasn't spent; that's possible. And it's also very possibl e that what he's asking for this year will not be spent, and next year it will be the same thing. He'll say, well, this is not the amount; this is the amount spent, and there is no point in trying to deal if we don't know. I think that any government and any Minister is supposed to ask what he thinks i:~ he will need.

You know, there is no point in asking for something and not spending it, because he can say any sum if we don't allow that; we have to know. Now, I would take it for granted that the Minister says he is going to spend this, this year, and tlhat next year we won't have a comparison again, you know. Now he's saying, well, we're going to spend more, because in effect, it wasn't as we have printed here $1.8 million; we didn't spend it, and he's making comparison with what was spent. Are we going to have that every year? Then there is no point; we can't get at anything, Mr. Chairman.

There is no doubt that you cannot fall right on the item, right on the nose, there is no doubt. And there is no doubt that at times when we did the same thing, in many items, that we couldn't help, for instance, the Dental Program, when we brought it; we couldn't go as fast as we wanted to and we were underspent. There is no dou about that. But the comparison was never made continually on what not was asked or what was voted last year.

You know, we voted so much last year and we're asking to vote this year, and the comparisons should be there , not on every item that we go back and say, well, we didn't spend this money. What guarantee do we have that this is not exactly the same thing that's being done this year, that they're asking money with no intention of spending it? What guarantee do we have? The Minister went through the same routine last year. He said, "Well, you didn't spend the money, so therefore we're asking that and we're going to spend more", and he made a point when we were saying that he was reducing programs. Now, Mr.

Chairman, is there that much that we had in 1976-77 - I'll go that far back - the vc>ted was $3.325 on this item. The following year, what was voted was $3.246. Maybe that was too much; there was a reduction. Then there was quite a reduction last year to financial assistance, from voted $3.246 to $1.8, and the Minister is saying that this is not spent. So both governments have been guilty, if they're not spending that money, of asking for money and going all the way down. But we're both being guilty for some reason or other of not doing enough then. When we've 1881

Tuesday, April 3, 1979 got this money and the people are saying they haven't got the funds, and that money is being passed by this Committee , and if we're not spending it, there is something wrong, and this is a futile exercise because we haven't the faintest idea of what will be done, Mr. Chairman. Now the Minister said, when we were talking about Salary, that there was a vacancy, and they didn't replace that man. That vacancy wasn't there last year at this time. That vacancy happened during this year and they didn't replace him. You know, they did away with one man.

That vacancy did not exist last year at this time and it didn't exist when they took over from our government, so you know, it's not just somebody that left and it didn't matter because the position wasn't filled , so therefore we're not losing anything . That position was filled. So, Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister - I think it's under this item - can break that down a bit. I think that we are now looking and I am interested in that in the different workshops in the province.

I wonder if the Minister could tell us how many workshops they have; who are they serving; how many people are they serving; and then break down I think that you have also the financial assistant for the client that is attending these workshops and also the fee for vocational training. That's part of that ; I think that even goes in some instance to the university and so on.

I'd like to know more about that; how many people are receiving help, and then there's the transportation, what has always been a very very important thing for the people in the workshops , because workshops are in certain centres and they have to be bussed there, Mr. Chairman . And then the support for the community, the residents for the mentally ill. This was an area that was quite difficult. It was felt that there wasn't enough funds in there . That was increased some, and it was felt by, certainly the people receiving the money, the client that we have, that this wasn't enough.

Could the Minister give us a little bit more about that, and tell us about the workshop that they have? Are they functioning well? Are there any closed? Are there any new ones and so on, Mr. Chairman? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman , with respect to that eliminated position - as I have said, it was an administrative officer's position , that was vacant as of last spring . The Member for St.

Boniface no doubt is correct when he suggests it wasn't vacant at the time we were going through our Estimates last year, although we started the Estimates of the Department of Health and Community Services on May 16th last year which was two months later than we started them this year, and I would have to check to be sure. But in any event, it was last spring , some time last spring that that position became vacant. MR.

DESJARDINS: Excuse me, on this, if I can help the Minister, I can assure him that I am not playing games, and if I am wrong it's because his figures that he gave me last year, l .can check for him now. And what he gave me last year, they were double checked to make sure. There were no vacancies. Rehab Services for Disabled was 8.5 for 1976-77; 1977-78, 8.5; and he was asking for 8.5 when there were no vacancies at that time . MR. SHERMAN: Well, then that would have been based on March 31st , 1978, Mr.

Chairman, and obviously that 's accurate and precise, but the vacancy did occur subsequent to that and had not been filled and was not deemed a necessary position in that particular office , and now has been abolished. With respect to the discrepancies and the variations in the requested amount and the voted amount, and the amounts that are actually spent, I agree with the Honourable Member for St.

Boniface, but the science of estimating is not a precise one, as he well knows, and as he himself has conceded , I guess all governments have made the same kinds of attemp ts to be accurate and precise in their estimating but have fallen short of the target or missed the target in actual practise from time to time, and I don't know that that can ever be entirely eliminated . In the category of underspent amounts, for '79-80, we are looking at a substantially reduced underexpenditure in comparison to the preceding year. In '77-78, the underexpenditure was approximately twice that.

This year, hopefully , we're very close to target with our Estimate , but I can't guarantee him that it's exactly on to every dollar and cent, because I know he's gone throug h the same exercise himself and it's an inexact one. In this area of financial assistance and workshops, we're looking at a total, Mr. Chairman , of 24 workshops, of varying forms throughout the province . I want to say at this juncture that two new occupational activity centres were started in fiscal '78-79.

One is in Thompson and one is in Notre Dame de Lourde, and included in the 1979-80 Estimates, on which we're asking the Legislature's approval right now, are funds for 40 new spaces in the city of Winnipeg and transportation costs associated with those spaces. So that the thrust in support of the rehabilitation 1882

Tuesday, April 3, 1979 worksh op concept remains unchanged and remains a direction and a policy of emphasis and we're attempting to expand in that field as rapidly as we can in a practical sense. The 24 workshops already in existence that I've referred to are located in the following points: Altona, Arborg, Austin, Beausejour, Boissevain, Brandon, Cardale, Dauphin, Flin Flon, Neepawa, !Notre Dame, Portage Ia Prairie, Selkirk , Steinbach , Stonewall, St. Malo, Swan River, Thompson, Virden, Winkler and Winnipeg . The number of clients in each of them varies widely, Mr. Chairman .

The biggest total is to be found in Winnipeg - 239. The smallest one is Thompson with 2, but i1 t's just started up and is supposed to accommodate 8, yes, I think it's supposed to accommodate a anyway, possibly as many as 10. Total is 1,127 clients in these 24 workshops . I mentioned earlier that about 1,075 disabled persons can be found in these workshops on any ! ~ i ven particular day, but the total enrolled , total spaces is 1, 127. Financial support for this whole 1::omponent of the program, Mr. Chairman, is $1,757,000.00.

The breakdown, if the honourable members would like to have it, is made up of the four items that I referred to earlier, the fees, :subsistence, transportation , etc. !MR. SPEAKER: The Member for St. Boniface. !MR. DESJARDINS: Yes, I thought the Minister meant breakdown of all the workshops. Yes, we'd like to have the other. and I think that you have the odd new ones. Were there any that were closed 1or some reason or other? Could the Minister tell us that, because you just announced that there were two new ones at. least? !MR.

SHERMAN: There were none closed that I'm aware of, or I recall or that my officials recall, Mr. Chairman. I believe the figure we quoted last year was 22, which now goes to 24, and there ar e plans for some additional group homes. !MR. CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Meer for Seven Oaks. !MR. MILLER: This is still under the VRDP, that is the Vocational Rehabilitation Plan. There has !been no change in that funding at all. So this is 50 percent Federal funding is that right? !MR. SHERMAN: Yes. !MR.

MILLER: And is the 50 percent paid on this line, that is financial assistance, or does it also 1::over some of the external agency payments as well? !MR. SHERMAN: It's paid on this line on Financial Assistance and on staff to the external agencies, Mr. Chairman. !MR. MILLER: Budgeting $1,757,000 for Financial Assistance, and staff in external agencies, and are recovering $1,880,000 from the federal government. Does that represent 50 percent of the actual ~ ~ ost? Is that the sort of thing that's audited by Ottawa to represent 50 percent, and if there's a :shortfall, does the anticipated revenue drop accordingly?

In other words, do you lose . . . dollars iif in fact you don't expend as you didn't last year. IMR. SHERMAN: Well, the staff we're talking about here, of course, are approved staff - we're lllot talk ing about administrative staff . We're talking about the staff approved for VRDP sharing in tterms of servicing these agencies and that doesn't encompass administrative staff. if the honourable member would repeat the last part of his question , I would appreciate it. IMR. MILLER: What I'm wondering is this, Mr.

Chairman, whether the staff referred to, which is covered under VRDP federal funding - the staff would be approved staff - would they be those 10nly within the Department of Health and Community Services, or as well, staff who are recognized, whether they be in C.N.I.B. or the Crippled Children 's Society - the agencies, in other words, the outside agencies - would they also be part of this cost-sha ring and would the Manitoba government 1receive money for them? IMR. SHERMAN: They're both, Mr. Chairman - both our staff and staff that are direct staff of 1the agencies themselves.

But our field staff come under a different item; they come under Regional !Personal Services 3.(t). IMR. MILLER: So, what we have here, then, is the fact that the federal government does pick up 1883

Tuesday, April 3, 1979 50 percent based on an audit, I suppose, to satisfy themselves that this money is expended. So to the extent that you underspent last year, under Financial Assistance, then the amount you indicated that you might receive last year was therefore proportiona tely out , I assume. So I ask this question - could you not have therefore made the grants , the assistance to the C.N.I.B. - increase their assistance so they wouldn't be faced with a defic it, and wouldn't have had to cut back services, as they've been forced to do; and in so doing still retain, protect the federal grant. MR.

SHERMAN: Well, the answer to that , Mr. Chairman , is that the underexpenditure came in the Financial Assistance category. It didn't come under the grants to external agencies. MR. MILLER: Thank you. That may be so, Mr. Chairman , but we're really dealing with one Appropriation; whether it's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 10, it's still 3.(

k) that we're dealing with - and certainly within the whole spectrum of Social Services and Community Health - so it's one appropriation and it's easily swung anywhere within that appropriation . So the question I'm asking is, since the external agencies had to cut back , as they put it, because they've been forced to tighten the belt to the point where it's harming their services I'm asking the question, why could not the assistance to them have been increased , and thus not have jeopardized and perhaps lost some of the federal financing that was available. MR.

SHERMAN: Well, in the Financial Assistance category , Mr. Chairman , we pay those workshops at a rate that is based on the number of clients, and with respect to the external agencies, I'm not sure but I assume what the Member for Seven Oaks is trying to get at, or trying to insist , is that there have been cutbacks or reductions in support to external agencies. In fact in most categories, there is an increase. In most categories in the external agencies area, in fact in all categories, there is an increase in 1979-80 over 1978-79.

Certainly I would concede the point that if we reduce the support for external agencies, we lose a certain amount of cost-sha ring - that's right . I concede that point. But I'm not prepared to concede that we are in any way reducing the support for external agencies . The budgets are tight, but they are greater than they were last year. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, Mr. J. Wally McKenzie (Roblin): The Honourable Member for St. Boniface . MR. DESJARDINS: Before we leave this item , could the Minister tell us what the fees paid to the activity centres are now? MR. SHERMAN: Is the Member for St.

Boniface referr ing to the Employment PreparatiO!l Centre, ARM Industries and Skills Unlimited? The Employment Preparat ion Centre has 80 clients , and the fee paid is $90 per client . And that applies to all of them . ARM Industries has 90 clients , and Skills Unlimited has 105 - and it's $90 per client in each case. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: (k)(3)-pass. (k)

(4) External Agencies , $3,435,600- pass. The Honourable Member for Seven Oaks. MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, here I would ask again the question , was there an underexpenditure for the $3,261 ,000 shown last year? MR. SHERMAN: No, Mr. Chairman, there was no underexpendi ture in this area. MR. MILLER: All right , so there 's no underexpenditure . So, Mr. Chairman , I then have to in a sense ask this questio n again. We know that although there was an increase last year over 1977-78, it obviously didn't keep up with the cost of inflation to the extent that certain programs had to be cut back at the external agencies.

They've had to tighten their belt, because it was part of the restraint program of this governmnnt , but in doing so, I am suggesting that by underexpending in one area, which is Financial Assistance , and since i t must have been obvious to the Minister very shortly after the beginning of the fiscal year, certainl y by the fall, that in fact there would be an underexpenditure in Financial Assistance - why he did n't see his way clear to increase the grants to the external agencies who are dependent upon provincial support , financial support , in order to provide the services they provide .

And in the case of the C.N.I.B., where they had to elim inate their transportation services for elderly blind, for example - that 's just one example where they had to let certain staff go, because 1884

Tuesday, April 3, 1979 ithey simply didn't have the funds, the grant wasn't large enough, and although it may have been !arger than the 1977-78, it obviously wasn't large enough to cover their increased costs to just maintain the service, never mind expanding it - just to maintain the level of service. And so, I'm wondering why the Minister chose not to increase the grant when he had the money in Line 3, 13nd could have, perhaps ' qualified for federal funding of 50 percent? liAR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Chairman, we have applied some of the underexpenditure to meet some shortfall s but the final determination of the underexpenditure was · not made that early in the fiscal 1rear. It was made, of course, late in the fiscal year, and at that point in time the budgeting with the external agencies had been set, and they were working with it, living within it - I'm not suggesting they're not living within it without difficultly, but that was being done - and we have other areas c>f shortfall, often in the area of salaries for institutiona

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-3-32a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 3rd hansardpdf 32a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	7232b129105a936fa641335e6d6b55ad95d241d4

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