Manitoba Committee Hansard — 24 June 1993 (Legislative Affairs Committee, Sitting 2, 35th Legislature, 4th Session)

35-4-la2

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session -Thirty-Fifth Legis lature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba STANDING COMMITTEE on LAW AMENDMENTS 42 Elizabeth II Chairperson Mr. Bob Rose Constituency of Turtle Mountain VOL. XLII No.2· 7 p.m., THURSDAY, JUNE 24, 1993

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMM INGS, Glen,'Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LA THLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant Vacant Vacant CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Crescentwood Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Pembina Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan River Rossmere Rupertsland The Maples PARTY.

Liberal NDP NDP Liberal NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liberal PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

4 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON LAW AMENDMENTS Thursday, June 24, 1993 TIME-7 p.m. LOCATION-Winnipeg, Manitoba CHA IRPER SON - Mr. Bob Ros e (Turtle Mountain) ATTENDANCE-11 -QUORUM-6 Members of the Committee present: Hon. Messrs. Derkach, Downey, Hon. Mrs. Mcintosh, Hon. Mr. Stefanson Mrs. Carstairs, Mrs. Dacquay, Messrs. Clif Evans, Lamoureux, Maloway, Mrs. Render, Mr. Rose APPEARING: Conrad Santos, MLA for Broadway WITNESSES: Bill 11 - The Regional Waste Management Authorities, The Municipal Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act Mr.

Bill Roth , Un ion of Manitoba Municipalities Bill 15 - The Boxin g and Wrestling Commis sion Act Mr. Bob Holli day, World Wrestlin g Federation; West Four Matchmakers Martin Boroditsky, Can-Am Wrestling MATTERS UNDER DISCUSSION: Bill 5- The Northern Affairs Amendment Act Bill 11 - The Regional Waste Management, The Municipal Amendment and Consequential Amendm ents Act Bill 13 - The Manitoba Em ployee Ownership Fund Corporation Amendment Act Bill 15 - The Boxing and Wrestlin g Commis sion Act Bill 18- The Corporations Amendment Act *** Cler k of Committees (Ms. Judy White): Good evening.

I have before me the resignation of Mr. Penner as Chairperson of the Standing Commit tee on Law Amendments. 1 will now read the letter: I would like to resign as Chairperson for the Standing Committee on Law Amendments, effective June 24, 199 3. Signed, Mr. Jack Penner. The floor is now open for nominations. Hon. James Downey (Min ister of Nor thern Affairs): I would like to nominate Mr. Bob Rose, the honourable mem ber for Turtle Mountain, as Chair of this committee. Mada m Cl erk: Mr. Bob Rose has been nomi nated . Are there any other nom in ations? Hearing none , would Mr. Rose please take the Chair. Mr.

Chairperson: Will the Standing Commit tee on Law Amendmen ts please come to order. This evening the com mit tee will be considering the following five bills: Bill 5, The Northern Affairs Amendment Act; Bill 11, The Regional Waste Mana gemen t Authoritie s , The Municip al Amendment and Consequential Amendmen ts Act; Bill 13 , The Manitoba Employee Ownership Fund Corporation Amendm ent Act; Bill 15 , The Boxing and Wrestling Commis sion Act ; Bill 18 , The Corporations Amendment Act. For the comm ittee's information, copies of the bills are available on the table behind me.

It is our custom to hear presentations from the public before the detailed considerations of the bills. At this time I have before me two lists indicating that we have one person registered to speak to Bill 11, three people to speak to Bill 15 . At this time I would like to canvass the audience and ask if there are any other persons present who would like to make a presentation to any of the bills that are before the committee this evening, and if so, would you please let the Comm ittee Clerk on my right know, and she will add your name to the list.

Does the committee wish to put a time limit on the presentations? Hearing none, we will consider no time limit on the presentations to this comm ittee. It has been our practice to hear from out-of-town presenters first, and I beli eve we do have one

5 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 24, 1993 no time limit on the presentations to this committee. It has been our practice to hear from out-of-town presenters first, and I believe we do have one presenter this evening from out of town. Is it the will of the committee to hear that presenter first? [agreed] · Mr. Bill Roth, are you here this evening? I would like now to call upon Bill Roth to come forward to give his presentation to the comm ittee. Forgive me, �r. Roth, you will have to tell me which biii- Mr. Bill Roth (Union of Manitoba Municipalities): Bill 11. Mr. Chairperson: Carry on.

Bill 11-The Regional Waste Management Authorities, The Municipal Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act Mr. Bill Roth (Union of Manitoba Municipalities): Thank you and good evening . First of all, it is regrettable that our president, Jim Knight, or our vice-president, Jack Nicol, cannot be in attendance tonight to present this bill, but our June district meetings are in process and they are involved in the June district meeting.

The Union of Manitoba Municipalities is pleased to ma ke a presentation before the Standing Com mittee on Law Amendm ents considering Bill 11, The Regional Waste Management Authorities, The Mu nicipal Amendment and Consequential Amendmen ts Act. The UMM represents 16 2 of the 202 municipalities in Manitoba, including all of the 10 6 rural mu nicipalities, 13 government districts, 23 villages, 17 towns and three cities. The mandate of our organization is to assist member mu nicipali ties in their endeavour to achieve strong, effective local government.

To accom plish this goal our organization acts on behalf of the memb ers to bring about changes, whether through legislation or otherwise, that will enhance the strength and effectiveness of the municipalities. Bill 11 will give mu nicip alities the option of providing waste ma nage men t services and facil ities on a regional basis by allo wing the establish ment of regional waste managem ent authorities. This type of legislation was requested by the UMM memb ership in a resolution passed at our 19 92 convention. Another

section of this bill allows mu nicipalities to charge for our waste management services on an individual user-fee basis rather than through the traditional property tax levies. This provision was also requested in a 19 91 UMM resolution. In addition, Bill 11 contains explicit provisions for mu nicipali ties to become involved in recycling programs, a recognition that many municipal ities are undertaking more activities in this area.

Because this legislation has been recommended by our memb ership, the UMM appreciates the introduction of Bill 11 , and we were pleased that the province has responded positively to these particular reque sts. Howe ver, desp ite this legislation, the UMM remains very concerned about the province's lack of direction and assistance in the area of waste management. We are appearing before the legislative committee today because this issue is one of the mo st imp ortant and urgent matters currently facing Manitoba municipalities.

Waste management and the need for legislation such as Bill 11 were brought to the forefront of municipal concerns when the province introduced new regulations for operating waste disposal sites in June 19 92. These regulations require significant changes to be made to the managem ent waste disposal sites. The Department of Environment's in spection of th e sites in di cated that alm ost one-half of the sites would have to be closed or upgraded in order to meet the new requirements. The most notable of the changes was the ban on burning household garbage .

The resul ting accumulation of garbage has led to a number of concerns, primarily a lack of sufficient space for the waste and sanitary problems, such as our growing rat popula tion. The regu lations also require frequ ent covering of the waste and greater supervision of the sites. In addition, the closure of sites also means that some mu nicipalities have had to transfer waste over longer distances. These measures have all significantly increased waste disposal costs for municipalities.

The UMM memb ership has raised many criticisms about the regulations and the fact that they were implem ented with little prior consultation. In addition to the two UMM resolutions mentioned earlier, two mo re resolut ions were supp orted almo st unani mously by our memb ers. Thes e resolutions were critical of the waste disposal regulations and expressed the need for provincial funding to assist with upgrading and operation of

June 24, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 6 new disposal sites by mu nicipalit ies. These concerns are also being expressed at an ongoing series of June district meetings where at least four resolutions will be present ed requesting the provincial government to undertake more initiatives in the area of recycling and waste disposal. Des pite these criti cis ms, the UMM does appreciate the underlying environmental concerns which led to the regulations.

Municipalities across the province are making an effort to co-operate with their regional Manitoba Environment offices and are attempting to adjust to the new regulations. For example, some mu nicipali ties are reducing the amo unt of wast e ent ering disposal sites by becoming more involved in recycling programs. Cur rent ly, there are approxima te ly 16 mu nicipalities that are memb ers of eight regional recycling networks across the province.

As is evident by the introduction of Bill 11, mun icip ali ties have also been exami ning the concept of regional sites as an option for addressing the problems of waste disposal in a more efficient manner. Both the province and the muni cipalities have recognized that some areas of the province may be nefit from the clos ure of numerous small sites and the creation of larger, central sites with a waste transfer system. To date, approximately 75 mun icipalities have investigated the regional option. Seven regional waste ma nagemen t associations hav e been formed and 10 more are in the planning stage.

The mu ni cipa lities inv olved in the regional waste management associations wished to be able to borrow money and expropriate land for the regional op erations and thi s led to reques ts for the legislation before us today. Bill 11 will give mu nicipalities the legal framework to create regional authorities, but the viability of regional sites is still in doubt because of the costs of establishing and ma intaini ng the sit es. Feasibili ty studies hav e indi cated that many mun icipalities will require more than double or triple their annual expenditures on waste management.

For instance, muni cipalities which have traditionally spent $5 to $1 0 per capital on waste disposal will now be required to pay $15 to $25 per capita. * (1 91 0) In addition, estimates of the initial capital costs of the regional sites range from $5 00,0 00 to $1 million. Costs involved in the creation of regional - sites include the purchase of land, landfill site testing and design, the construction and upgrading of roads and the construction of transfer sites.

Cons idering the limi ted revenues which are available to local gov ernm en ts, these costs represent significant increases in the expenditures of mun icipalities. While the Department of Environment did not cost-share funding available for mu nicipalities to und ertake feasibil ity studies, we beli eve the province should play a much greater role in the area of waste management. The mu nicipalities feel they have made an effort to comply with the regulations and now require assistance from the province in terms of financing the sites.

Waste disposal impac ts on many facets of the environmen t and is an issue which affects all Manitobans. The costs involved in changing and up grading waste disposal facilities across the province should not be borne solely by the limited property tax base of mu nicipalities. Th e De partm en t of Envi ronment itse lf acknowledged the need for provincial funding in their 19 91 State of the Environment report, which said that government incentives such as grants or interest-free loans may be necessary for regional disposal facilities to become a reality.

To look at another province for comparison purposes, when regional waste disposal sites were introduced in Alberta, the provincial government paid the capital costs of the sites. In conclusion, the UMM does appreciate the introduction of The Regional Waste Management Authorities Act. However, we urge the province to provide financial assistance to mak e regional waste management facilities a feasible option for mu nicipalities. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Roth. Are you prepared to answer qu estions or enter into a dialogue with the committee? Mr. Roth: Yes. Mr.

Chairperson: Do any comm ittee memb ers have a question or comment for Mr. Roth? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Min ister of Rural Develop ment): Mr. Roth, in your presentation you indicated that it was the mu nicipal association and the mu nicipalities across the province that have encouraged government to introduce regulations and legislation to deal with waste management in the province. Is that correct?

7 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 24, 1993 Mr. Roth: Yes. Mr. Derkach: In their encour age me nt or discussions I would assume that the association did, for a number of years, I think three to be exact, discuss waste management regulations and the need for changing regulations with regard to waste dispo sal with the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cumm ings)? Mr. Roth: We did receive, many municipalities received proposed regulations which were going to be impleme nted by the provincial government.

We had, in those regulations, if we are to look at them , for example, the purchase of 80 acres, which in some areas is a very signif icant capital expenditure, because the regulations that were establ ishe d and the guidel ines tha t were established under those, of the 80 acres you would have had approximately 40 acres that would be available for a waste disposal site. Ther e are many ot her aspec ts of those guidelines which also became dominant. One of those was the issue of burying. Many municipal people and many people do have a problem with burying, for example, some household garbage.

That is still up to debate. It is even up for debate with experts. You get documentaries on TV where you have experts that have indicated real concern about what will happen to, let us say, underground water years down the road. There is no dou bt that mu nicip ali ties were receptive to many of the proposals because, let us face facts, we are all concerned about the environment. There are many mu nicipalities that were not too impressed with the way-the citizens were not too im pressed with the image of the disposal sites and how they were operated.

So we are receptive to some change and we are receptive to some of the guidelines, but as far as a significant amount of consultation, there was not a tremendous am ount of consu ltation with us or discussion of these areas. We did have some concerns. I think we expressed to the minister. Mr.

Derkach: I unde rstand that in working with mu nicip alities that once the regulatio ns were introduced, they were, of course, not a surprise to mun icipalities, but they were a bit of a surprise to some of the citizens within mu nicipalities in the way that they were impleme nted and, I guess, citizens were not aware that all of a sudden there would be a new regulation with regard to how we were going to be dealing with waste in the mu nicipalities.

Is it fair to say that mu nicipalities were aware that these regulations were going to be imp lemented and that there would be a period of time in which they would be monit ored and that amendmen ts and changes would be made as we matured in the whole process of disposing of waste. Mr. Roth: Yes, it is fair to say tha t ma ny munici palities-all municipalities, I believe, had an opportunity to review the guidelines established. I gu ess wha t becomes a real concern to many mu nicipalities is the time factor involved. We just cannot change these things overnight.

The other thing is, the financial burden that would be incurred by the municipalities, and let us face the fact that our own sole source of taxes is the property tax owner. We question that. We actually feel that to help implement and address the issue of the waste disposal sites that there should have been a greater responsibility, in particular financial respo nsi bi li ty, acce pted by the provincial government. It does not matter where you get the money from. It all comes- whether you take it out of this pocket or this pocket, it still has to be paid for.

It is the impression of many mu nicipalities that the source of revenue of the provincial government is far greater than the source of revenue which, in the case of municipalities, is just the property taxes. So we are quite con cerned. We did some research into what happened in Alberta. We know that Alberta incurred a significant amount of capital costs. So as a consequence, that concern was elim inated by ma ny mu nicipali ties in Alberta. I believe in Alberta they even pay as much $45-50 per capita in some instances. I believe the waste disposal site southwest of Calgary, the costs are up in that range. Mr.

Derkach: Mr. Roth, are you familiar with the ma xi-grind system tha t has been used as a dem onstration for composting waste around the province? Mr. Roth: I have seen a diagram of that machine. I have not had an opportunity yet to view it in operation, but it is something that we are very, very receptive to looking at, investigating the possibility. I think the costs are a little bit prohibitive for maybe each site to look at purchasing this, but if we could

June 24, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8 take a look at what is going on with ACRE, maybe we could look at that. In that case there, we have machines which travel across the province and shred all plastic containers. The farmers have been very receptive to collecting these, triple rinsing these pesticide and herbicide containers, and as a consequence, we are elim inating that problem and elim inating those from our waste disposal sites. I say to you that mu nicipalities are receptive to eliminating any of the problems which we have had in the past, but there are limitations about sources of money.

I guess the other thing is the time span in which we are expected to put these in place. We tried to establish a waste disposal site in our area approximately three years ago. The cost would have been quite stiff and would have had a tremendous impact upon our budget. We were not in a position to really borrow. We faced many obstacles there and of course it is not easy to establish one. Many ratepayers become very concerned. So I think we all have a role to make the public aware of what the new waste disposal sites will look like. They are not going to look like what they did at one time.

I think there has to be more co-operation and consultation so that we make the public aware of what is going on, not just only the mu nicipal people. I know that may present some difficulties but I think that is achievable, and I think that is what we have to do. If we are going to establish these sites and make them more receptive to the public, I think that is another area we could be looking at. * (1 920) Mr.

Derkach: The reason I posed the question with regard to the grinder was that in the present round of district meetings I noticed that the two entrepreneurs were following the district meetings with this system and were doin g some demonstrations at the various sites. I was wondering whether or not UMM has taken a position with regard to the acceptance or whether they have done a cost comparison between using the grinder system and reducing the volume of waste by eight times compared to just burying it and then creating these regional waste disposal sites.

I am wondering whether there has been any analysis done by UMM or any organization. Mr. Roth: No, there has not been any analysis made because we were actually just made aware of this machine, this grinder, I believe at our June meeting. We are certainly interested in anything that is going to reduce the volume of garbage within our waste disposal sites because, at the present time, just to secure dirt and to bury the wastes that are going into these sites is a tremendous cost and somet imes it has to be trucked considerable distances, but we have not done any cost analysis. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you.

Have any of the committee members a question? Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): Mr. Roth, other than the regional waste disposal systems being created, wha t would be any oth er viable alternative? Mr. Roth: Well, in some instances, I think that the regional system may be the only option, but I do think there should be some flexibility because in certain instances, it may not be the only option. I mean, it may be the option due to soils and types of soils that you may have the option of, you know, not large centres being established.

Personal ly, I think you coul d have transfer stations or transfer depo ts and maybe even transfer some to larger waste disposal sites. So I envision that your larger centres may be, you know, receiving waste that could be transferred. I do not think we have to have the regional sites all over the province. At least I would say that if that is the goal, and it may be appropriate for a large percentage of the province, large areas, then once again there is tremendous costs incurred, and I think once again we have to work together to solve this problem.

We are not asking the provincial government to be saddled with the total burden of these costs. We are willing to put up a fair number of dollars too, and I do not think there is any munic ipality that has a problem with it. We are all equally concerned with the elimin ation of waste from our disposal sites. We are very interested in recycling. There are many munic ipalities that have, and want- that they have just said, all right, or towns have said, well, all right, we will provide you with two garbage bags on a certain period; anything over that you are going to pay.

So I think it is resulting in the public becoming more aware that we are not going to receive all of

9 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 24, 1993 the garbage which they would like to get rid of. There is going to have to be some sorting and selection in that, and it is going to have to go in certain areas. Right now, we ·have got pesticide containers, herbicide containers elimin ated . We have got many mu nicipalities that are sorting all steel; it is being removed. Trees are put in a certain place. They are not being buried.

We feel that, you know, mayb� there should be, and I believe there has been, some initiative there to permit burning more frequently, because if you take a look at the storm here last week, we got a thousand trees in the towns that have just been blowing over in the last week or so, and they have to be eliminated. A large waste disposal site in some areas may prove to be just a little bit too costly. Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Santos, could you bring your microphone a little closer, please? Mr. Santos: Mr.

Chairperson, it follows that the more centralized the waste management system is and the less number of regional waste disposal facilities there are, the greater will be the expense of transporting that garbage, is it not? Mr. Roth: We have not done a detailed analysis. We have got information from Alberta, but we have not done a detailed analysis. If we just sit back and think of the costs of hauling all these materials and so on, it is quite conceivable, if you take in too large an area, that is going to be maybe far more costly than having two or three sites established. Mr.

Santos: Do you think a dual system of waste di sposal would be preferable , distinguish ing between hazardous waste and those that can be composted locally so that there will not be much vol ume th at will be transferred to the central facilities? Mr. Roth: I did not quite unde rstand your question, but I think that right now municipalities are receptive to eliminating all wastes. You have composting; you have units for recycling and that. What happened is, this is being sorted out within the waste disposal sites. Mr.

Santos: I was just thin kin g tha t if a municipality can gather two types of waste, those that can be composted and those cannot. Those that cannot are the only ones that will go to the central regional facilities, and those that are left behind will, of course, be used as fertilizer later on. Would that be preferable, less expensive? Mr. Roth: I am sorry, I could not answer that. Mr. Cllf Evans (Interlake): Mr. Roth, you were mentioning the fact of time and cost.

Would you say that you have requested of the government, even though they have implem ented Bill 11, to be able to provide you with the opening to go into regional waste management? What time limit or time element are you looking at to be able to deal with waste management regional sites? The problem too of-and we are seeing it even now-that there are people who are opposing proposed sites within certain areas of municipalities whether they be an individual municip ality or two or three combinin g to put a site in a specific spot.

Do you feel that municip alities are going to be running into an even bigger problem down the road when it comes to approving sites, where they are going to be, who is going to pose them? Then what do you do? Mr. Roth: I believe it was three years ago we tried to establish a site within our own locale, the town of Carman, the R.M. of Dutferin. One of the reasons we were receptive to having a site, we would have been able to purchase land, but we would not have had to expropriate. That is the first thing. Number 2 is we do not have large reserves.

We were looking at 12 0 acres between the two of us working together. We could have established that site, but we ran into a formi dable amount of opposition to establishing that site, and this is characteristic of establishing any regional site. So as a consequence, I actually feel that there is a tremendous amount of information that we could distribute and should be presented to the public to show them that there is going to be significant change with the establ ishment of a new site .

Certainly, the amount of burning that went on in the past was regrettable because there are many people that were very concerned about that and some of the items that maybe were being burned. But now there is a significant change, and I think we had a job here to educate the public of what new sites would happen there. There would be sorting of materials. There would only be certain time frames in which they would be able to burn. Some would be buried. We would be encouraged in recycling and all these things that you are mentioning.

Right now the Town of Carman went and purchased a compactor because, you know, the

June 24, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 10 volumes were comin g so the volume that was being hauled in there, they simply purchased a compactor to reduce the amount of area that would be required in the foreseeable future. So I think that one of the problems in establishing them is that many people have a bad im age of the waste disposal sites in the past, and we have to change that. We ha ve to in dicate mu nicip alities ha ve a responsibil ity to indi cate there is going to be sign ificant change along with the provi ncial government here.

In that key instance there we were allied with anyone that is receptive to becoming involved in educating the public. * (1 930) Mr. Cllf Evans: So even though Bill 11 is opening the doors, as I mentioned earlier, to be able to provide a legisla tive way of com bining municipalities, would you not think that perhaps the Environment department should be involved in this a little bit more in setting the direction, because you are saying now that the pressure is being put on by the Department of Environment for these sites. On the other hand, Bill 11 is opening the doors to do something about it.

Do you feel that you are being cut in the time lim it as far as what you can do by providing information for people and doing proper studies? Mr. Roth: I want to just mention that regarding Bill 11 , first of all, it does allow the establishment of regional waste management authorities. That is positive. No. 2, it does allow municipalities to levy a fee. That is also a positive thing because many, many of us feel that it should not be solely a burden of the property tax owner. In this bill also, you have expl icit provisions which encourage or al low mu nicipalities to become involved in recycling.

I think those are three positive things. I think that, by doing this, this bill does make it pos sible, and maybe it will help man y mu nicipalities, to establish a regional site mu ch sooner than it would have in the past. We did not have the means in the past to establish some of these regional sit e s because they are qui te prohibitive, the costs that would be involved.

When you are talking about $1 million, for two or three municipalities to raise a mil lion dollars is a lot of money, and to establish in a very short time frame is another problem , especially when the public do not know what we are going to do. They do not realize you are going to have berms. There is going to be a lim it-the restrictions regarding burning. They are going to be manned, which is another cost we are incurring. So I would say in that respect-and also the legal framework here to create regional authorities is another positive thing.

There are many parts of this that we find very acceptable, but we do want to be involved in the future. We have received information from the department that we will be consulted in the future on a closer basis. That is very appreciated. Let us make sure it is a reality. We want to know what is going to happen; not tomorrow, we want to know in mu ch mo re advance. We have received information that this is a desirous goal of people of the department to meet with us on a much more frequent basis, and we have also received some assurances.

As I have expressed, we have a real concern about the education aspect, that there will be greater involvement and consult ation in the future when it comes to education. On the same token, I have to say to you, we have a problem financing these, and you cannot establish these things overnight. Mr. Cllf Evans: One last question. In meeting with the MAUM directors today, two of the words that they used you have used here in your presentation, or three or so: lack of direction and su pport.

They used "su pport" and you used "assistance." What direction would you like to see this government go and what assistance really? Where do you want the government to go with this in direction and support? Mr. Roth: I think, first of all, in regarding location. That is something that does require the services of consultants and engineers and is a cost which is presently, I believe, borne by the mu nicipalities. I do believe that we can just go down to the Norquay Building here and get all kinds of soil maps that indicate exactly the types of soils and what we are dealing with.

I bel ieve that is something that would certainly-! think that what we require here, when I say there is a lack of direction, we require some technical advice. We simply require some expertise. You talk about clay. You want it on a clay base. Well, with many mu nicipalities, we could receive some assistance in determining exactly where that

11 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 24, 1993 location is without going through hiring a consultant or engineering and finding out that the area is not appropriate for a waste disposal site. That is just one little area. I do feel that consultation is very important, and I do believe that there are people out there that could provide it, joint with the government. But technical advice? I am thinking in terms just of that one example right now. Hon, James Downey (Mi nister of Northern Affairs): Mr. Chairperson, I will just be brief. Mr.

Roth, I understand recently all municipalities and jurisdictions received an unconditional grant from the province from the VL T money which was paid out. Is that correct? Mr. Roth: That is correct. Mr. Downey: I unde rstand it was unconditional. You ha ve asked for mo ney. Would the munic ipalities be able to use this money for such things as regional waste management areas? Mr. Roth: I actual ly think that what we were requested to do was we were also requested to be accountable for this money. I think we were requested to be accountable in this.

When I say accountable, I think what I interpret that to mean, pe rson ally, is that ther e are ma ny local organizations that have been making significant contributions and many organizations which have many vol unt eers in volved that have provided assistance to the communi ties to make them a better place to live in terms of recreation and many other areas, assistance to elderly people and so on. Now, the VL T monies, to my mind, are, maybe, for tha t purp ose and also for economic development. We have not discussed that, but as far as I can see, the environment is a separate department.

I can certainly present that to the executive and see if they concur with that. We are supposed to be accountable for that money, I believe, and we have to indicate that. There is no doub t about it. If we have waste disposal sites that are much improved, it is going to make it a better communi ty to live in. But that is not, to ma ny mu ni cipal people's minds, for what this VL T money, the purpose of it was for. Mr. Downey: Mr. Chairperson, last question. I unde rstand that a lot of the muni cipalities were asking for some of the return of the VL T for infrastructure.

Would you not conside r this as infrastructure? Mr. Roth: Well, I suppose it depends how you want to look at the infrastructure. When we think of the infrastructure, we are thinking mainly in terms of towns, sewer lines, water lines and so on. I guess ther e are many muni cipali ties that require assistance for infrastructure, because of the significant changes we have made when it comes ju st to plumbing. The costs have tripled in some instances in a matter of a very few years because of the environmental regulations when it comes to what is used for materials in plumbing now.

I think the City of Portage Ia Prairie faced a tremendous problem here when environmen tal changes were made and guidelines established as to what was appropriate to put in place and what was not. I believe that many mu nicipal organizations had set aside reserves, but they did not ever foresee the tremendous or tripling of costs of the materials that would be required for use for sewage lines or water lines and so on. Mr. Cllf Evans: The Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) made a comment about the VL T money and using that money that the mu nicipalities have received. In your presentation, Mr.

Roth, you are indicating here that the costs per capita will, perhaps, go up $15 to $25 per capita and that initial capital costs could range anywhere up to a million dollars. Do you think the VL T mo ney that the mu nicipalities receive at $5,000 initial and $5.70 per capita would even touch a portion of the costs that you will incur with this? • (1 940) Mr. Roth: Sure, any monies, if we were to use to them, certainly it would help , but at th e same time-1 think we are talking about capital costs. We are talking basically about capital costs.

There should be involvement, and I have difficulty with capital costs being financed by VL Ts. I think we have a responsibility to all society to establish-if regional provincial sites are the way to go, then I think all of society, and I am thinking in terms of provincial government here, has the responsibility of assisting muni cipalities to make these waste disposal sites a reality. To do that, I think they

June 24, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 12 should incur some of the capital costs, at least the capital costs. These $25 costs we are referring to-we are just sim ply tal king about operation costs here. In Alberta, I know the operation costs-we are being very, very conservative here in these costs. In Alberta, we can get information where they are significantly higher, but I think, if you really want to establish waste disposal sites in a short time frame, there has to be some initiative from the provincial government to allocate more monies toward the waste disposal sites, particularly capital costs.

Mr. Cllf Evans: Yes, I just wanted to say, thank you, Mr. Roth, for your presentation. I look forward to dealing with the UMM further on this, and we will be in touch. Thank you. Mr. Chairperson: Are there any other questions or comments? If not, I would like to thank Mr. Roth for his participation this evening. Thank you very much. 8111 15- The Boxing and Wrestling Commission Act Mr. Chairperson: We have three presenters for Bill 15 : Mr. Bob Holliday of the World Wrestling Federation; a presentation from the West Four Matchmakers-! understand Mr. Holliday will be ma king tha t presentation as well ; Mr.

Martin Boroditsky for the Can-Am Wrestling. Is Mr. Holliday here this evening? Mr. Holliday? Mr. Bob Holliday (World Wrestling Federation): I am Bob Holliday. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you. You may proceed. Mr. Holliday: For the past nine years, the World Wrestling Federation has attem pted to be a comm unity -consciou s corporate citizen of Manitoba. We are known throughout the world as a leade r in sports entertai nm ent. The World Wrestling Federation has striven to give the paying public the biggest bang for its hard-earned buck.

Locally, the WWF is an acknowledged leader in aiding commu ni ty organizat ions through the donation of merchandise and tickets for fund raising events, and as well, the WWF is a leader in the donation of tickets to underprivileged children in order they may enjoy seeing their heroes of the ring. Over the past three events, more than 2,000 children from the inner city have attended our events at the Winnipeg Arena, and there is nobody in this town that has given that many tickets to underprivileged kids.

I have mixed reaction to the proposed legislation concerning boxing and wrestling, particularly wrestling in Manitoba. As a promoter for the World Wrestling Federation, I see no need for Bill 15 , since the WWF has a stringent set of guidelines concerning conduct in and outside of the ring. The WWF also enforces one of the mo st strictest substance-abuse policies in the world. As a resident of the province, I see a need for the act in order to protect the public from unscrupulous people who cannot spell "promoter" one day and are one the next. If there has to be

an act, then this hearing is long overdue. The old act was a toothless tiger which many people in the province flaunted and then dared the Man itoba Boxing and Wrestling Comm ission to prosecute th em. As a main contributor, through the 3 percent levy on our gates, the WWF has attem pted to live up to the intent of the law. To say the least, it was difficult to sit idle and watch people flaunt the law and not be prosecuted.

Meanwhile, when I attempted to get some action by withholding our 3 percent, pressure was placed upon my self to pay, whic h I did rather than jeop ardize two days of television tap ing last Sep te mber in Winni peg and one day later in Brandon, where 300 visitors spent money in Manitoba for three days. The pressure was put upon me to pay because the comm ission had exhausted its resources defending itself against the people flaunting the rules, while most claimed only suckers like Holliday and promoter Tony Condello followed the rules.

These people conti nued to promote so-called wrestling matches with no fear of prosecution. I gen erally agree with Bill 15 . I again mu st request the comm issions's levy,

Section 22 .1 , agai nst the ga te reve nue be taken after uncontrollable building costs such as rent, box office charges, police security, et cetera, have been deducted. It has been argued by the comm ission these figures could be inflated , but how can a computer printout signed by the officials of the Winnipeg Arena or Brandon's Keystone Centre be altered? The Provincial Auditor's report of February 22, 19 90, sugges ted large wrestl ing events are

13 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 24, 1993 financing a dispr opor tiona te share of the com m ission' s operation. I submit the WWF is financing nearly all of the comm ission's costs of operation, and if fairness is to be brought into the system whereby promoters of small events will be able to pay a flat fee for a permit, then the same fairness must be applied to larger operations such as the WWF. It is becoming more and more difficult to stage a large, event in Winnipeg. Taxes take 20 percent off the top, the commission gets 3 percent, GST 7 percent, am usement tax 10 percent.

Then we hav e 12 percent rental, 5 percent box office charges, the 25-cent-per-seat to expand the arena. We still have the security, ushers and police. The WWF stages five pay-per-view events each year, and Winnipeg should be the host of one of these events which is seen by millions of people around the world. To quote Miss Anita Scales who works in the legal department of the head office in Stamford, Connecticut, it is a fact we have done our pay-per-view and other television tapings with tax and cost issues swaying the decision.

As you are aware, some of the states have no tax and others have from one to four separate taxing authorities. I believe we pay more tax in Winnipeg than we do in British Columbia or Alberta. In closing I would lik e to cong ratu la te Commissioner Buck Matiowski for his efforts in trying to improve the image of boxing and wrestling in this province. I watched as he has been hampered by absentee memb ers and an obsolete piece of legislation. The current commission is attempting to make the best of a bad situation and mu st be congratulated for its effort.

The World Wrestling Federation lived by the intent of the old legislation, and we will abide by the conditions set down by the new leg islation. All I ask is that fairness be a part of your ruling. Thank you. Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Holli day, are you presenting on behalf of West Four Matchmakers? Mr. Bob Holliday {West Four Matchmakers): Yes, I just have a short one to read for Tony. Mr. Chairperson: Will you proceed with that now, please. Mr. Holliday: As a licensed wrestling promoter since 19 72, I agree with the new act.

It will finally give protection to legitimate promoters and make those who do not believe in the system think twice. The old act was too full of holes to let people do things without being prosecuted, but because Tony Con dello and Bob Hol liday had bonds, the commission could enforce the rules against them while others did what they wanted to do without anything being done to them. I have gained a lot of respect for Comm issioner Buck Matiowski and the work he has done to clean up wrestling in Manitoba.

He tried to do it without any help from the Attorney-General's department, which said nothing could be done without proof, even though I supplied them with evidence. I would like to have made a normal presentation, but I have a wrestling card in Carman tonight. Thank you for your tim e. Tony Condello. Mr. Chairperson: Th ank you very mu ch, Mr. Holliday. Are you prepared to answer questions or participate in discussion? Mr. Holliday: Yes, I am. Mr. Chairperson: Does any committee member wish to com men t or pose a ques tion to Mr. Holliday?

Hearing none, I thank you very much for your presentation and your participation and your participation this evening. * (1 950) Mr. Martin Borodltsky (Can-Am Wrestlin g): Good ev ening. Wha t I would li ke to do, Mr. Chairperson, with your permission, is read my presentation pertaining to boxing and perhaps you could then di rect whether questions should be made specifically with regard to that aspect of the legislation, or if I should then continue with my presentation about professional wrestling. Mr. Chairperson: Okay, thank you, proceed. Mr.

Borodltsky: With regard to professi onal boxing and the aspects of Bill 15 , on March 8, 19 93, a boxing fan named Mike Marko wrote a gu est column for the Winnip eg Free Press. Though a fight fan, he called for professional boxing to be banned . Marko wrote: Boxing needs to protect fighters, not from the sport, but from themselves and the lasting physical injury they can suffer. Tragically, no one seems to realize the next blow can lead to

June 24, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1 4 irreparable harm to mind and body. The ravages of boxi ng-related brain dama ge are irreversible. Brain cells do not regenerate. Ask Muhamma d Ali. Marko's obse rvations are well founded and reflect what may be defined as representing a segment of the public interest in the issue of government regulation of boxing. However, Marko has not had the opportunity, as I have, to study such regulation as a journalist and as an unwillin g victim of the en tire boxing and wrestlin g commissions system.

Based on my experience, I would like to elaborate on Marko's contention. Boxers need to be protected, not only from injury, but from the very government sanctioning agencies that are supposed to protect them . Muhamma d Ali was himself a victim of the greed and blo od lust of the very boxin g comm ission system which our Manitoba commi ssion proudly associa tes wi th and has mo delle d the ir own behavior after. They are asking you to sanction this framework. I suggest that the Legislature consider the opposite and ban professional boxing entirely.

A look at the career of Ali and other boxers may help you assess whether the proposed act will truly protect the boxers and the public, or if it is geared instead to the continued emp ire buil ding of the Manitoba commission. Howard Cose ll, who was a lawyer before becom ing the first television sports journalis t, descri bed boxin g com m issions in Thomas Hauser's book on Muhammad Ali-His Life and Times. Cosell said: You know the truth about boxing comm issions. They are nothing but a bunch of politic al ly appointed hacks.

Alm ost withou t exception, they are men of such meagre talent that the only time you hear anything about them at all is when they are party to a mismatch that results in a fighter being maimed or killed. Ali was stripped of his title and forbidden to fight by all fifty states, and that piece of scum, Don King, has not been barred by one. What does that tell you about government, boxing and the last 25 years?

In Ali' s case , the Nev ada State Athleti c Co mm ission, being one of the busie st commissions, presumably would have a clue about right and wrong, allowed Ali to fight on October 2. 19 80, against Larry Holmes. A Nevada commis sion member, Duke Durden, convinced Ali not to release his Mayo Clinic medical report to a leading fight journalist, Alex Wallau, who was concerned about Ali's fitness to fight. Hauser assessed that medical report.

Quote , did Nevada authorities really believe it was proper for Ali to fight when, quote, he does not quite hop with the agility that one might anticipate and on finger-to-nose testing there is a slight degree of missing the target? Were they not bothered by the occasional tingling of his hands in the morning, or the small cavum septum pellu cidum in Ali's brain?-a hole in the mem brane separating the ventricles that can be enl arged by concussive blows to the head. All the commission had to do was requisition tapes to hear how his voice had changed.

Perhaps then it would have been more concerned about his mil d ataxic dysarthria difficulty in co-ordi natin g the mu scles used in speaking. The Mayo Clinic report was billed as clearing Ali to fight, when in fact it raised far more questions than it answered. In noting that the Nevada comm ission had a copy of the Mayo Clinic report and was supposed to have ad min istered its own physical , Hauser wondered why, quote, the Nevada commission, whose first mission is to protect fighters within its jurisdiction, let the fight go on. Why? Money. The fight grossed $5.7 mil lion.

The Nevada comm ission collec ted their fees, hobnobbed with all the important officials and fans, and allowed Ali to get beaten senseless. Ali's own physician, Dr. Ferdie Pacheco said, quote, Ali is lucky he lived through the Holmes fight. Com mis sions across North America are motivated by greed and blood lust, not by the doctrines and principles necessary to protect the public or the boxers.

An associate of Ali, Harold Conrad, told Hauser that when Ali finally returned to the ring in Atlanta in 19 70, it was because of a state senator named Leroy Johnson, quote, who controlled a pile of black votes, so the mayor went along with it. All it took was politics and money. Before Atlanta, California had been willin g to grant Ali a licence , but the gov ernor, Ronal d Reagan, said, quote, that draft dodger will never fight in my state, period. Conrad said, quote, in Nevada, the governor was with us, but the mob killed the fight through its political connections. In

15 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 24, 19 93 Montana, I was told they would sanction the fight if we put $1 00,000 in the right pockets. Politics and money. In boxing, it is acceptable to fine boxers for losing. In the July 19 93, Boxing Ill ustrat ed, John Scheinman reported on a Washington, D.C. bout where Frank July was knocked out at 42 seconds of the first round of his first fight. "If D.C.

Boxing Commissioner Jeffrey Gildenhorn had been on the ball, he never would have allowed this fight to take place, but instead, incredibly, he not only permitted the massacre, but docked July his purse after the bout." "The only thing I am giving him is his travelling expenses. The man did not put up a professional fight." After being dropped by a savage left hook, taking an eight count and getting knocked cold by a right, Scheinman wrote, "July should have been paid double." In Winnipeg, on February 24, 19 90, Karel Skripel was hurt and unable to fight.

He was arbitrarily sus pended-no hearing, no app eal, no du e process. His sin was no fight, which made the commission look bad. After I wrote about Skripel and the fact that he had been licensed without undergoing the requir ed me di cal s, Mik e Beauregard of MTN prepared a documen tary in which he found two more boxers who had not been examined properly, yet were allowed to risk their lives in the ring. I have a video tape of that which I am willing to share with the commit tee for their viewing at a future date.

It is a three-part documentary, and I highly recommend that you view it to examine how the commission has handled questions from the media in the past about their conduct in relation to protecting boxers in the public interest. Even if, and "if" is a very big word, given the evidence, if the Manitoba Commis sion were an honest and trustworthy body, the standards by which boxers are deemed fit are inadequa te . Passing a neurological test does not mean that a boxer can avoid or withstand a beating. Dr. Ferdie Pacheco from the Thomas Hauser book: Athletes get old early.

John McEnroe today is like an over-the-hill fighter. But there is a major difference between boxing and tennis, because when McEnroe takes a beating, it is not in the form of concussive blows to the head. The legs go, his reflexes are not what they used to be, he cuts more easily, the injuries accelerate and the older you get, the less your recuperative powers are. Ali at age 23 could have shaken it off, but at age 33, it was another story. If you block 95 out of 10 0 punches, the other five are getting in.

Section 25(1 )(

b) of the proposed act would allow the com mis sion the power to "order part of a contes t or exhi bition stop ped." In relation to boxi ng , they have a simila r provision in New Jersey. It is dangerous. Hauser wrote of it in the February '93 issue of Boxing Illustrated. He said: It seems like every time I watch a fight from Atlantic City, the same guy jumps out of the crowd, leaps onto the ring apron and stops it. His name is Larry Hazzard. He appoints the referees in New Jersey, but apparently does not have much faith in them because he will not let them do their job.

Some day, a fighter will be seriously hurt in New Jersey. It will happen because, instead of using his own discretion when a fighter is in trouble, the referee will be waiting for Larry Hazzard to stop it. Bill 15 is proposing to open the door to such a tragedy. Really, the fact that someone has not been killed under Buck Matiowski's reign is a miracle. Politically, mo rally and socially, the potential cost of Bill 15 cannot be justified unless major changes to the way things are looked at and done is enforced.

Commis sioners should not behave like fans who want to see a fight and punish boxers who cannot com pete . Commis sioners sho uld not ma ke decisions on the basis of whether it costs them their fees and prestige if the show does not go on. Commis sioners should be honest people who tell the truth, speak with knowledge and adhere to simple principles like due proc�ss. If the Legislature cannot make them do so, it should ban boxing. A single brainstem injury can cost the health care system far more than what the commission can generate in revenue in 10 years.

Even if boxing is maintained, new rules must be developed to deal with older boxers who, like Ali, are more prone to serious dam age-perhaps an age cut-off, like 35; supplem entary assessment procedures, because it is in everybody's interest to save lives. We cannot afford, at any level, another Stewart Gray.

June 24, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 16 As Mike Beauregard said in the documentary, they are not managing a hardware store or a chip wagon . Do no t rush through a bill wi thou t understanding these issues, and if they cannot be resolved, then I must sadly join with Mike Marko and call for professional boxing to be banned in the province of Manitoba. That concludes my presentation with regard to the provisions in professional boxing. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you. I think it would be the will of the committee to-Mrs.

Carstairs-is it the will of the committee to finish the presentation and then move to questions? Mr. Borodltsky: Okay, I would firstly like to provide to the Clerk, I guess, a copy of the video tape document ary in question. Mr. Chairperson: Okay, thank you . Shall we proceed with the presentation and then go to questions afterwards or does the committee wish to question this portion of the presentation? Floor Comme nt: Hear the presentations, and then questions after. Mr. Chairperson: Hear the presentation? Then you may proceed, Mr. Boroditsky. Mr.

Borodltsky: In regard to professional wrestling, it is a far more complicated problem than what I just described with boxing. The fact is that this committee is here tonight in large part because of my own activities. Firstly, my concern with Bill 15 is in reading it. It is very clear to me that whoever wrote it does not understand what professional wrestling is and that is a tragedy. It is a very complicated industry. I had 48 hours notice for this and I have a box full of stacks of information, which I doubt that anybody in this Legislature even realized would be available.

I will deal with it firstly on a political basis. The fact is that even if there is agreement that there is a requir em ent for regu lation of professiona l wrestling-and I am not saying that there is not-1 personally beli eve it can better done through departments like Consumer and Corporate Affairs. The fact is that professional wrestling by its very nature and by the admission of the WWF is more geared to regulation through the Department of Culture and Heritage than it is through the Ministry for Sport. •

(2000) Mr. Chairperson: Excuse me, Mr. Boroditsky. I am having trouble with the documents in front of me. Which one are you on? Am I the only one- Mr. Borodltsky: I was going to lead in. Do you want me to read directly from them ? Mr. Chairperson: Oh, you are winging it. Okay. Sorry. Continue. Mr. Borodltsky: Somewhat, Sir. I prepared some docume ntation based on the commission's own figures. The fact is that they lived for years off of a surplus that was somewher e $9 4,000 and it descended at the end of 19 92 to somewher e around the $10 ,000 mark. The issue of the surplus I will discuss in a few momen ts.

With regard to their revenues, their revenues in 19 85 were at the $30,000 mark and have dipped down in 19 91 . I beli eve this dip in '91 was attributable to fees not being paid by the WWF, which would have then shown up as accounts receivable on the third chart which suddenly went from about a thousand dollars to $12 ,000.

It think it is more appropriate for members of the Legislature to ask why the Boxing and Wrestling Commi ssion was financing the activities of the WWF, because the experience of other promoters has been, when they have vio lated even the simplest rule, they were suddenly threatened with all sorts of sanctions, but the WWF felt they had a point and perhaps the commis sion felt they had some sort of interest in carrying this account until the matter was resolved. It is however a fact of the way the industry is regulated that even the WWF felt threatened by the commission.

The WWF can pay, the fact is that the industry has changed and somebody is trying to sell this Legis la tur e a bill of goods. The expenditures of the comm ission are $35,000 a year, maybe down to $30,000 some years. The revenues are under $20,000. Are you going to requisition $1 0,000 or $1 5,000 a year to fund this? And boxing does not pay its qwn way. It was the wrestling surplus, $40,000 of which came from Brinco Sports [phonetic] through the early '80s, through the heyday of the American Wrestling Association, that the commission lived off of.

The day s of arena wrestl ing, which is the premise upon which a commission is supported, are over. The WWF wo rks off of television revenues and pay-per-views and good for them, that is their game. Traditionally, this system was

17 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 24, 19 93 built on the idea that a major outfit would come to the Winnipeg Arena and before that the Winnipeg Auditorium and put on about 12 shows a year and so there would be, you know, so much money per month coming into the commission, but it was a different game back then and those days will not return. The WWF will not come to Winnipeg 12 times a year. They had a TV taping, which hypothetically would, be a big event because they had all their big stars there, and they only drew about 9,000 people -reg ular wrestling cards used to draw 12 ,000.

The popularity of the sport has changed because it is too easily available on TV and what is going on in the industry mirrors what happened in the 19 50s. Accordingly, you cannot regulate the industry in Manitoba for what is good for the WWF or major established outfits. The WWF and other outfits need a farm system and for a farm system to develop you have to give small promoters the leeway. The WWF can afford the $1 0,000 fines that are proposed in the act, a small promoter cannot.

There are plenty of talented Manitobans-and this is how I personal ly got drawn in to the ind ustry- who have travelled all over the world wrestling. They come home and they ha ve nothing. They canno t work. For years, for whatever business reasons he had, Mr. Condello was favoured usin g Am erican in terests and im porting Americans and the WWF has a set program. They do not use a lot of Canadians and certainly have not given trials to Winnipeggers. What is a guy from Winnipeg or from Manitoba supposed to do, spend his life in Mexico or Texas or Oregon?

Americans can come up here to work, but the opportunities for Canadians in the United States and aroun d the world in wrestling are limited. A bill tha t proposes to have such onerous requiremen ts is simply not in the in terest of maintaining it at a communi ty club level. The WWF will not go to Altona. They will not go to Morden. They will not go to Poplar River, where I have promoted, and the reason is very simply, they cannot afford it. But you cannot have conditions that are suitable for the big guys. You know, I have an answer, actu ally, for something that Mr.

Holl iday comp lained about, about the disproportiona te sh are. Of course, the WWF funds a disproportionate share, and I am not saying they do, but they are in a position to damage the public interest in a disproportionate amount. In February, they built their whole promotion for the February 27 card on a character named Razor Ramone. On February 20, in an afternoon show in Maryland, the wrestler involved blew his knee out. They ran their advertising all week lon g , and thousands of people showed up at the arena on the 27th, the following Saturday, wanting to see Razor Ramone.

They did no t build th eir promotion around their world champion or around any of their so-called good guys or bad guys, or whatever. They built it around the one character, and he had been hurt. For whatever reasons, they could not change the ir television, could not change their advertising, but there were a lot of people mad. I know because I know people at the newspapers who got a lot of angry phone calls because they ran the advertising. So, though I understand how a large outfit can feel it is unfair, it is unfortunate. The fact is the industry operates in the following manner.

If you have a commission with the power to stop and start bouts in relation to wrestling, I will tell you what happens in Mexico when they do that. Forty-eight thousand people at plaza de toros in Mexico City on the 30th of April, the first big card of an outlaw promotion, the fifth match, the end of the match, the referee awarded the title to the challenger.

Some body forgot to tell the commission what was going on because the box eluchia [phonetic], the boxing wrestling comm issioner, saw the champion, the former champion because he had lost his title, complain, and made a fuss and ordered the match restarted because he said that the champion had had his shoulder up. You have a proposal in this act tha t the commission can appoint referees?

I do not know how to break this to you , but if we do not have referees that we know, you are not going to have professional wrestling, period, because the WWF are the last people that are going to allow people who are not in it to re feree. Where did that provision come from? The provision that a match can be stopped and that referees can be appointed is great for boxing, but regulating boxing and wrestling together is clearly like regulating basketball and volleyball

June 24, 19 93 LEGIS LATI VE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 18 because they are played on hardwood floors. They are not the same. Somebody may have had very good intentions, but I believe somebody did not understand what the hell they were doing. The business is full of an odd tradition, and this is part of the problem. Government says, well, why do we not get the information? Going back to the turn of this century, people did not want to admit what the wrestling business was like. It is now quite common, biggest hero in the business, Hulk Hogan, goes on the Nashville network, and he talks quite openly.

Sheri Martell [phonetic)-that is an easy one-this was in the Winnipeg Free Press recently -tre men dous athlete , a tremendous performer in the ring: Wrestling is entertainment; I do not try to insult anyone's intelligence. You are all elected MLAs. Can you tell me why the Minister for Sport is regulating entertainment? I do not understand it. Hogan, Nashville network, I found it. This is from the January 15 Wrestling Observer: I am not goin g to in sult anyone' s intell igen ce; it is a controlled situation. It is an exhibition; it is acting, charisma and good athletes. It is a show.

A lot of the wrestler's are friends. If you want to call it exposing the business, call it whatever you want. I call it good business. In the 19 50s when Dory Funk's [phonetic] father was wrestl ing in Texas : Danny McShane [phonetic], who was a very popular wrestler in Texas, went on television and said he was going to break my father's back. My grandmother and grandfather watching it on TV said, Oh, my God! In the old days, they would not even explain what was going on to their own parents. Well, the business has changed .

It changed sometime around the turn of the century when Carl Gotch [phone tic] and George Hacke nschmit [phonetic)-! am sorry, it was not Carl Gotch, he was subsequent to that. It was a different Gotch engaged in a series of matches from 190 4 to 19 08. After wrestlin g to, like, five-hour draws, they realized maybe this was easier if this was done to draw a crowd and not to break each other's legs. The problem with commissions is that the WWF and large outfits like to try to curry favour with government agencies.

For instance, Reverend Jackson, Jesse Jackson himself, has appeared lately with the WWF in a series of promotional appearances on the ir television with regard to Somali relief efforts and the WWF-and this has not arisen out of Winnipeg, but they have had some problems with regard to their public image in the States relating to whether they really do have stringent standards and codes. It is not an easy situation. Wrestlers are hard people to deal with.

But if you want to talk about public interest in wrestling, here is Reverend Jackson appearing on TV with the WWF at the same time as he trying to knock Marge Schott out as owner of the Reds for alleged racist remarks. This is a letter from Kurt Schneider [phonetic] who is in volved in the wrestling ind ustry in Michigan. Is Reverend Jackson aware the only black man in a power position in the WWF mysteriously disappeared in the wake of scandal?

Is he aware that for a long time the only hero who was a black wrestler was portrayed as a manservant to a rich white man and assisted in skits to humil iate, among others, a small black child? Is he aware the only other blacks featured by the WWF are a voodoo man, a Ugan dan canni bal and some body fr equently called Buckwheat?

Well, you know if you are going to regulate this according to the public interest, to define the public interest in wrestling is difficult because you have to define whether people are involved in the complete, total, willful suspension of disbelief, where they will just buy anything that is put in front of them, and where you let things be done that in the outside world would be insulting, or if you are going to draw the line. I do not think a commission, with the best intentions, can function on a regulation on that basis.

At what point can you say, well, that was a tasteless sketch and we will not let that guy wrestle here? It is not the wrestler's fault. There is a position in the wrestling industry called the booker. A lot of people think the promoter is behin d everything. The booker establishes the story lines. There are no provisions in the act to punish bookers, and half the time the promoter leaves it up to the booker to give him guidance on who should do what.

That is a mistake because a lot of times things go wrong, things are tasteless, guys get out of hand; it is not the promoter's fault, but the promoter ends up carrying the baggage. Commissions are used by the WWF. They are used by all major outfits. In 19 88 there was a pay-per -view from a com peting promotion in Illinois. This is from the March 1 , 19 93, Wrestling

19 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 24, 19 93 Observer and it deals with the unfortunate life and dea th of Kerry Von Eric [pho netic]. At the pay-per-view event in Illinois, the WWF, who got involved before the Jerry Lawler-Von Eric pay-per view match, they went to the Illinois comm ission and tried to get Von Eric banned from wrestling because of an ancient statute in the books about boxers and wrestlers with amputated limbs being unable to perform. Von Eric had an ampu tated foot, which was a well-kept secret until his death.

The comm ission avoided the issue by scheduling a hearing for Von Eric after the match day. Well , how can you ha ve a gov ernment commission manipu lated by businesses, and you have got one of those same businesses coming here saying what a wonderful thing commissions are.

Come onl As a matter of fact, the New York State, despite all the unfortunate scandal that the WWF has met, Phil Muchniak [phonetic] in the New York Post ran an item on-1 believe, it would have been April 6 of 19 92, that the New York City Athletic Commi ssion has not, despi te urgi ng and am ple evidence , inv estiga ted any of the charges agai nst the com pany and new charges surface virtually everyday. They have not urged the state attorney general to investigate either. Why does the WWF get a pass from New York State? Money.

The comm ission gets 5.5 percent of their receipts, and unless Comm issioner Randy Gordon who is also a boxing commissioner explains, that is the reason. * (201 0) Wrestling in terms of its popularity is on the downswi ng. From 19 91 and '92 , ind ustr y estimates in March of that year, the WWF's gates were down 35 percent and their attendance down 39 percent. Approximately the same time period a year later, their attendance was down another 40 percent. It is not easy and if you are going to depend on live attendance to draw crowds, then the government here has missed the boat by 20 years.

In 19 72 a promotion in Georgia had a 76 share on their live TV. That means 76 out of 10 0 people were watching the TV at that moment. Those days are long gone. With regard to regulating the industry for other aspects, safety, injuries are a part of the game, and wrestling is getting more dangerous. I know. I have been in the ring. I started out doing play by play, and it turned into something different. The AWA, in its day, invented a rule the wrestlers could not come off the top rope, after a wrestler was unfortunately killed in the ring in Omaha.

Curiously enough, when the promoter in Omaha, Joe Dusak [phon etic ] tried to capitaliz e on that as a promotional angl e by having the late wrestler's brother come in to avenge his brother's death, it ended up killing the territory for him. People got turned off. He lost his TV. So in the end, the marketplace somewhat self-regulates the wrestling indu stry. In places like Oregon, where there has been a very strong comm ission with very stringent regulat ions, it has en ded up kill ing the local promotions.

The notio n, locally, to go back to the other matters about what went on, I want to explain, because I am putting up with a lot of garbage on a personal level for a long time. All I ever wanted to do was try to develop a promotion that would take care of the local Winnipeg guys. I proceeded to try to do so. Somewhere along the line, the Boxing and Wrestling Comm ission here developed the premise that though I had been licensed in 19 89 and 19 90, I would need a line of credit for $1 0,000.

This put me in a situation where I had to cancel my plans, and there had been a great deal of, not only financial investment, but there is a lot of effort that goes into planning things, that goes into thinking out who is going to have what role and who is going to be in the opener and who on the main event. The next day my agent received a letter saying that it was not required for a wrestling promoter's license. It was applicable to join t license for promoting boxing and wrestling. Joint license did not exist.

Then I got with it a document, the original of which I have give n a copy of to the caucus representatives, I believ e, Mrs. Carstairs, Mr. Evans, and I think I left one for Mr. Helwer. It showed that the bond was $1 ,000. I was also given a document called Regulation 26, that the commission could ask me for character references, none of which had applied the year before. Then when I chec ked, I found tha t they had used white-out to change it from $1 ,000 to $500. What did I do wrong? Well, it did not matter, because my reputation in this province was shot.

I sen t a le tte r to the honour able minis ter's predecessor, Mr. Ernst, who ignored it. I sent supporting docume ntation, took the Boxing and Wrestling through Small Claims Court to try to get

June 24, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 20 more information and discovered some interesting ideas. I think we have had an explanation for their ballooning account receivable, but the legal and audit bills went up. One of the years of Mr. Matiowski's reign, the travel budget went from $5,000 to $1 6,000. I sent an Access to Information request that was intercepted by Mr. Matiowski who, perhaps unbe knownst to him, should not have been respon ding.

I got a further response contradicting some of his indications that certain docume nts did no t exis t, wa s told by the appropriate departmental representative they did. Subsequently I went to Kansas City, and all I heard on the grapevine was that I was a jerk, that I got caught doing something wrong. Well, you know what I tried to do? I tried to compete with the established promotions that stood here tonight and kissed the Comm ission's butt. That is all I tried to do, was compete.

Now, at the time, neither of those promotions were using made-in-Manitoba talent, because the guys that were available to work did not want to get paid $25 to get killed in an opener by some American. I was willing to pay them an appropriate amount of mo ney and prom ote them in an app ropriate way, and I only took the role of promoter because somebody had to do it. It was not something I had been born to, but somebody had to put all these guys that are sitting around all winter together and try to do something productive with them . I convinced another promoter to go through with his plans, and he sent in $500.

He was denied a permit; he appealed. Mr. Ernst sent a letter on November 30, 19 90, saying the regulation had been amended, and $1 ,000 is the required amount. Then there is Tony Condello complaining to the Winnip eg Sun about it. Then the promoter on December 7, 19 90, got a letter saying, we regret to advise you that we intend to lay charges, because they would not accept his bond. Yet, subsequently, by the time it all came out in the wash, I proved that on October 4, 19 88, the comm issioner himself had signed the regulations and knew the bond was $500.

Now, look who you are taking advice from on boxing and wrestling. I have got better things to do with my time than blow three years of my life out, have two relationships go down the drain and have everybody in this place that I used to deal with as a reporter look at me cockeyed because I am trying to do something that is right. People can make mi stakes whether they are bureaucrats or legislators or MLAs or ministers, but how many mistakes are tolerable, and how many mistakes can be unexplained? Mr.

Ernst was dragged into it by the Winnipeg Sun, and the counsel for the comm ission wrote that he beli eved that the present comm ission did not know on October '88 what the regulations were, yet I found they were signed on October 4. Then it goes back and forth and people cry when Walter Shefchyk-who by the way, people can say a lot of things about Walter Shefchyk, a lot, and a lot of them are not good, as a local promoter, but he did nothing wrong . He offered the $500, they refused to take it.

He ran shows, and the established promoters that feel that they are owed something because they have been paying without qu estion for years, withou t having read the regulations for years, they thought they were out something. So they start to hold up the commission. This is a farce. This whole thing has been a farce from beginning to end. If you want to regulate wrestling in the province of Manitoba, do it in a way that is logical. The commission is losing money.

I do not think the publi c-w ith hospital beds closing, with daycares being underfunded and with all the other problems of government, how can the government justify a system? If the commission hikes the fees, there will never be another Roddy Piper from Manitoba; there will never be another Carrie Brown; there will never be another Moose Moroski from the old days. It will not happen. Wrestlers have to be able to work and work frequently to be able to com pete .

The kids in commu nity centres, the working class that formed the traditional backbone of wrestling fans deserve the opportunity to have shows presented to them, and the WWF cannot fill that bill. So you cannot have onerous requirements. As for the behaviour of the commission in the past, I sent letters to Premier Film on, I sent letter to Mr. McCrae, and I have one note. Jim McCrae's staff wrote back and said that they would not take any action because it is not against the law to threaten to charge some body and not follow through.

21 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 24, 19 93 Although I do not have any intention of coming here to defend anyone in particular, Walte r Shefchyk was not breaking the law. When word got around that he was being threatened with a charge and all the rest, wrestlers would not wrestle for him , halls would not book him, and it was a very difficult situation. It was not fair, because he did nothing wrong. The commissioner wrote the letter. Bill Crook knew he was not breaking the law. If the legislature wants to put their faith in a body like this, that is great.

You will end up with the dem ise of local club wrestling under the proposals. Surely to God-and I do not think that in all honestly I blame the commission for this, I did not realize how inadequate the neurological tests were until I studied the issue-you will end up with no boxing either. If you think it is important enough to regulate, regulate it in a manner that is sensible. I would suggest with bo xin g , the matter should be withdrawn and studied, because I do not think the Canadian Boxing Federati on regulations are adequate. I do not think they adequately protect boxers.

That is not Buck Matio wski's fault or anybody else's. I do not think people have studied it. The fact is, comm issions, as I have proven, throughout the Uni ted State s, these are the groups tha t the Manitoba Comm ission-w hich is not a very busy commission-has to model themselves after, they have to model their legislation after. These are corrupt bodies, because they want those payoffs, they want those free tickets, they want to be able to meet Hulk Hogan, meet Muhammad Ali and meet Larry Holmes. They behave like fans.

I believe wrestling should be put in the hands of the department of Linda Mcintosh with regard to issues of whether guys show up and are billed and people feel they are ripped off. I am not convinced that there is a need to licence. As a matter, with regard to licensing, ju st two days ago some wrestlers went to the commission offices and were shown a list of the licensed wrestlers.

The WWF has paid their $5 per guy, and River City Wrestling, which could not attend tonight, which is being run by my former agent, their guys are all paid up, but Tony Condello has not bought a licence this year for any of his wrestlers. Now, it is of little deal, you know, it is five bucks. Meanwhile, you have got a comm ission that has got no money. Why is it the rules keep changing for everybody? Why were the rules so different for me when I wanted to com pete and provide employment for Manitobans? This is not a good foundation to build

an act on. I think you could do a lot worse than declaring a moratorium on wrestling for a year. If the minister wants to follow up on past concerns that have been raised, then by all means. You know, I am out of the business. I cannot get a licence according to any promoter, as long as Buck Matiowski is the chairman, because they feel he will be vindictive if I am involved. I would not blame him. I have taken up a lot of Buck's time; he has taken up a lot of mine. But it is not a very fair situation overall. I think you would do a lot worse .

If you are going to regula te it, somebody has to answer one intrinsic question: If wrestling is a sport, why do you not appoint a comm issioner for the CF L? Why do you not appoint a commissioner for the NHL or for the NBA, which plays exhibition games here, or anybody else? • {2020) But if wrestling is a sport, why do you not appoint a com mi ssioner for the CF L, why do you not appoint a commissioner for the NHL or for the NBA, which plays exhibition games here, or anybody else?

But if wrestling is a sport, why can I not appoint or vote in a process where we have our own com m issioner and set our own rules and self-regulate? If we are not a sport, why is the Minister for Sport wasting his time on something that cannot possibly break even, because the days of big-time arena wrestling in Winnipeg are dead and gone, and they will never come back. So if you want to drain the public purse for 1 0 or 15 grand a year and kid yourselves, go ahead. If you want to see talent develop in Manitoba, I think that there are plenty of ways it can be done in a manner that accommodates everybody.

Lastly, there is a comment that was made by Scott Taylor with regard to this when he studied this for the Free Press. The basic synopsis is, because I really do not feel like pullin g out the clip, he felt-he wrote this about a year or two years ago-that what you need for wrestling is a vendor selling permit. You do not need a commission. If you need a commission for wrestling, you need one

June 24, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 22 for the Harlem Globetrotters, you need one for the Ice Capades. Twenty, thirty years ago nobody would have stood before a group of elected officials and told them the truth. I always told the truth, and in my case, I have been penalized for it every step of the way in this deal, because when I went to people in government, they go, ah, it is no big deal, just a bunch of wrestlers. I am a Manitoban. I am a taxpayer.

Myself and all the wrestlers and all the promoters too have a right to be intrinsically treated in a manner that is representative of the way gov ernmen t treats people, and I do not think Mr. Derkach or Mrs. Mcintosh or any other minister, Mr. Stefanson, in normal circumstances, would have tole rated white-out being used to alter regulations, people saying they were not aware of regulations after they signed, any of that garbage. It would not have been tolerated. This is a $30 ,000 -a-year in d ustry, tops $300,000 revenue, $30,000 in the pockets of the comm ission.

The cab indus try is $3 1 mil lion a year, and you propose less sanctions and controls over it in Bill 24 than you do for these industries in Bi1115 . You have better things to do, and I do not think boxing or wrestling forms a substantive part of any party's political agenda. I suggest that maybe the ma tte r should be wit hd rawn and should be re-examined, because I honestly believe that this bill has been drafted by people who have never been ins ide a ring, who have never wrestled , boxed, promoted, refereed, sold popcorn. How can they draft a law that you can accept?

Anyway, it has taken me three years to get here, and I appreciate your having listened to this. I hope I have been able to educate you a bit on what it is you think you are doing here. I am sorry perhaps that it has taken so long, but I think that the points in boxing, which I did not come to realize until the last couple of months, are very serious. Somebody will get killed-and a brainstem injury, if you are lucky, the boxer will die, because if he lives it is going to cost a half a million dollars a year-for an outfit that only draws $30,000 a year in revenue.

Winnipeg cannot draw a big enough boxing card to substantiate the potential cost. I wish it could, because I am a fight fan. I really am, but I think the day has come where, for this province, we cannot afford professional boxing unless we come up with some really stringent standards, and I do not think, personally, that boxing fans would be happ y watching professional boxers wear headgear and the other requirements or 16 -ounce gloves. I think we may have to kiss professional boxing good-bye, and I do not think that professional wrestling should be part of a legislative agenda. It just does not make any sense.

It used to in the only days, when government did not know whether wrestling was sport or entertainment. You now know, and I think you shoul d ma ke a better informed and mo re educated choice. Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much, Mr. Boroditsky. Would you be prepared to answer questions or participate in discussions? Mr. Borodltsky: I would have hoped I would have answered them all by now, but for sure. Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (River Heights): I have to say, Mr.

Boroditsky, I am a little confused about some of what you are saying, because on the one hand, I see you saying you want more regulation; on the other hand, I see you saying you want less regulation. Mr. Borodltsky: I am sorry, ma' am. More regulation with regard to what? Mrs. Carstalrs: Well, I hear you saying you want more regulation with regard to safety. Mr. Borodltsky: Safety of boxers? Mrs. Carstalrs: Yes. Mr. Borodltsky: Okay, the issue of safety of boxers, Mrs. Carstairs, is simple. Again, as I said, I do not blame the current commissioner for this.

I think it is a matter that has not been adequately studied by his cohorts at the Canadian Boxing Federation, other commi ssions after whom he patterns his behavior and his regulations. When you read the available literature, what becomes apparent is this: Boxing comm issions are indeed politically appointed hacks. There are very few boxing commissions that have ex-boxers on them, and unfortunately, the ex-boxers get so caught up in being government people that they start doing goofy things like collecting a 5.5 percent or whatever and not regulating properly.

You cannot have a situation where you rely on the current standards that are in the act that I am pretty certain are the ones that are approved by the

23 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 24, 19 93 Canadian Boxing Federati on. They are not adequate anymore. Just because I can do this and touch my finger to my nose, okay, that is passing one of the tests, or that I can hop, my study has indicated that that is not an adequa te test. You see, when a boxer gets, even my age-l am 33 now. I started in the wrestling game, got in the ring very late. I was 28; I was too old to get in-but at 33 you do not have the reflexes or the recuperative powers, so just because you pass a neurological test does not mean you can slip a punch.

The boxers today are bigger and stronger and faster; they are all mo nsters. In the old days, a gu y lik e Floyd Patterson, who was a glorified light-heavyweight, could be the heavyweight champion of the world. Nowadays, these guys are all beasts, the way they are in all sports. It has become more dangerous. Hockey-look at how ma ny more injuries there are in hockey now, serious ones, because of the increased impact. So ju st because some body can pass a neurological test does not mean they have the ability to get hit with successive, concussive blows. They can kill; they can maim.

The problem you have is, if the commission here relies on the fact that last month Joe Blow, Joe Palooka passed a medical test in Edmonton or Las Vegas, those guys are allowing fighters to get into the ring because they want their 5 percent or their 3 percent and their free tickets and the ability to meet the champion. They are not regulating according to any public interest. That is why you have the guy in D.C., who is a respected figure in boxing, fighting somebody because he got his brains knocked out. So if you are going to have boxing, we have to develop, Manitoba has to lead and not follow.

I do not know if it is worth the cost, because we are not a boxing mecca. I do not know if the health care system wants to take the chance on a brain stem injury that is going to cost half a million bucks when you are not going to draw off the commission. In its best years, it is not going to draw more than fifty grand a year. If there was an explosion of interest in wrestling and boxing, and wrestling has to carry boxing because there are going to be five wrestling cards a week, there can only be one boxing card every three or four weeks, because they are not allowed to box.

If you are knocked out you cannot box for 30 days. If I am knocked out in the ring, I am back up in the main event. I am in the tag match, so you need wrestling to sustain boxing, and I do not think that the cost is there. I am a boxing fan. I do not like having to say this, but this is a lot more serious, I think, now than people have realized. Mrs. Carstalrs: I do not disagree with anything you are saying, and I am on the public record for saying that I would ban the sport of boxing. That is not the point. I have a piece of legislation that is before me and before all the other legislators of this Chamber.

Is it better off regulated, since it is not going to be banned? I might want that, but it is not going to be banned. The reality is, it is going to exist. Is it better off having it regula ted or not having it regulated? Mr. Borodltsky: Well, boxing has to be regulated, ma 'am , because promo ters are com pletely unscrupulous.

Boxing promoters are-1 do not know this from personal experience, I only know this from having studied as a journalist, but in the United States, through the 19 40s and '50s, there were characters like Slink y Polermo that would hang around the industry, and James Norris had a syndicate that has been mob controlled off and on for years. The problem is that commissions have been prone -1 am not saying specifically the commission here at all-but commissions have been traditionally prone, unfortunately, to falling under the sway of these mob influences. It is the way it is. So it has to be regulated.

It is a strange game. I love it. I have helped set up the ring. I suppose I would ref. I would never actually want to work in it for a living. It has to be regulated if it is going to exist, but there have got to be two areas of regulati on. One is the circumstances un der which a card takes place to ma ke sure people are not false billed, but the other is, if you continue with the current regulations and again, I will repeat it, it is not Buck's fault. The current safety regulations are not enough. They really are not, but you have to study this to understand it.

You know, passing a neurological test does not mean some guy-Terry Jessiman is 37, 38 years old and he can pretty mu ch still get a licence in this province because he can pass the standard test, but he has taken a lot of punishment over the years and there is a point when you have got to tell a boxer, no.

June 24, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 24 The problem is, there are still states they can run to. I think No rth Dak ota does no t hav e a commission. They can still box in places, but it has to be more stringently regulated with regard to the health and safety aspects. The tests that are in place are not enough. I wish they were. I am a fight fan, but they are not. Somebody is going to get hurt. *

(2030) Mrs. Carstalrs: My final question: I have a bill in front of me that is not going to be withdrawn. It is not going to be amended in any significant way. Do I vote for it, knowing that by voting for it there is some regulation, or do I vote against it in your opinion? Mr. Borodltsky: Madam, I would suggest that if the government side-a nd I do not really think it is, as I said, this is not really part of a substantive political agenda of any party. Neither aspect of this bill should be. I beli eve they should withd raw the bill and reconsider how to straighten up certain aspects of that boxing end.

Otherwise there is going to be a brouhaha in the House in Question Period one day and everybody is going to be pointing fingers, somewhat unfairly, at the commission itself, who are not being given the proper guidance by the political leadership. I mean, you have to follow your conscience. I am telling you that if you believe, any MLA believes that the current regulations are sufficient to protect boxers over the age of, say, 30 or 35, if a tragedy occurs, then you have only yourself to blame. The boxers do not know any better and I do not believe that the commissioner really knows any better.

It is not their fault they do not know any better, but they do not. I do not believe the bill in that form is supportable. I think the act has to specify some of those tests because I do not think it would be left up to the regulation process. Mr. Chairperson: Do you ha ve any further questions or comments? Mr. Conrad Santos {Broadway): Mr. Boroditsky, are you advocating self-regulation? Mr. Borodltsky: Of boxing, sir? Mr. Santos: Whichever, as a general principle. Mr. Borod ltsky: Boxing cannot self-regulate because it has a tende ncy to attract really undesirable elements, okay.

It has been a habitual resort of racketeers and other such elements for a number of years. As I read from my research, in Nevada, the mob could kill a fight. So you have to be very careful with regard to that. With regard to wrestling, I think there is some degree of self-regulation that can take place, when the WWF says so-called promoters. You know, the fact is that the WWF shows their house attendance is decreasing because their shows are boring. The guys are burned out because they are on the road so much. They go from town to town and they do not put out.

In small-time wrestling, in front of 200 or 300 people, it is a different product, you are energized. You get in front of the people and you get their emotions going. So in regard to making sure good shows go on, I think Consumer and Corporate Affairs and other go vernmen t departme nts that exis t are well positioned to be able to assess if a show was a rip-off or not.

The fact is though the established prom oters may be compla inin g about oth er promotions, there may have been some instances where things have been done that were not in the public interest, but I think that can be said for the existing promotions as well that has false-billed guys. Guys who were billed on television did not show. I think Consumer and Co rporate Affairs can handle most of the public interest concerns that a government or opposition parties would have with regard to wrestling. You are not regulatin g wrestling with regard to injuries or any of the other aspects anyway.

It is like regulating stunt men, sir. There is no regulation for stunt men in this province, is there? It is like regulating stunt men, in effect, to perform in an improvisational manner in front of a crowd. I do not think that is suitable for a Minister for Sport (Mr. Stefanson) or even for Bonnie Mitchelson's department for that matter. It is not as easy as it sounds. I do not think that wrestling should form part of this bill unless you can clearly define in that act what it is, because there is no way that a commissioner of any stripe should have the power to appoint a referee in one of my matches.

I can tell you one other thing. If a commissioner ever tried to stop a wrestling match in this province, he would get knocked cold. The rule in the

25 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 24, 19 93 wrestling game is, if someone you do not know gets up on the apron, you drop them to protect yourself, because wrestlers in the past, unfortunately, have been attacked by people whose emotions have been whipped up .. It is not as easy as it sounds when you are on the outside. When you are on the inside you see there are a lot of potential problems to the nature of the regul ati on. In any event, Mr. Santos, it loses mon�y and it is not going to make more money if there is less competition in the wrestling game.

There would have been more competition in the wrestling game three years ago if the commission had played by the rules that were in existence instead of inventing rules that did not exist. Mr. Santos: To say that self-regulation is risky in one case because mobs will be attracted, he is simply saying that groups are like flies, money is like sugar, and they are there wherever there is something to be gained. The question is, if it is a system of self-regulation, how do you defend that system from allegations of veiled promotion of self-interest? Mr. Borodltsky: Again, Mr.

Santos, you have to separate boxing from wrestling. This is a bill that is regulating two different things that are not related, except they take place on the same playing field. They are not the same things. You people, the Legislature and the commission, have to get it out of your heads. These are not the same things. The commission proposes to have a rule where they can go in the dressing room and in spect everything. Would they go into Steve Schipper's dressing room at the Manitoba Theatre Centre and do that? Then why would they think it is necessary to do it in a wrestling game?

In the boxing game, yes, because if a guy gets doped up and he cannot defend himself he can get killed. That does not happen in the wrestling game, and so they are two different things. Boxing, as I have said, cannot be self-regulated. There have to be stringent regulations, better regulations, the comm ission has taken

part in before, as you will see in the video tape, to make sure boxers do not get hurt. But with regard to wrestling, wrestling and boxing, they are not the same things. This act does not even define wrestling. They refuse to define it. I find that really curious, unless it is because they know that a court will laugh it straight out. You are regulating something that is essentially a play, and if the commission does not like it, they are going to jump in the ring and change the finish? They are going to say, we do not like the looks of this guy, he should not be able to wrestle?

I can get in the ring and not move a muscle for eight min utes-and I am not very good at it by the way-and get people booing and yelling and screaming. That is the name of the game in wrestling. If you want us to find out who are the best wrestlers please go back to Barcelona, you will find Bruce Baumgartner's [phonetic] picture where he won the gold medal. The best wrestler in the professional game is who can stir the emotions bes t and put people in the seats. It is not something for the Minister responsible for Sport (Mr.

Stefa nson) and it is no t- even if the comm ission were experts on boxing, that does not make them experts on wrestling just because it is in a ring with four posts and three ropes. That is absurd. If I were to import a production of Trafert Tansy [phonetic]-it is a play that was done in Ottawa at the National Arts Centre and in Victoria; it is a play about wrestling-would the com mis sion have jurisdiction on that because it is a portrayal of wrestling with the same ending every night? What if I change the ending? What if Trafert Tansy does not win every night, are they going to stick their nose in?

Wh at about the Palomino Club that has somethin g calle d sumo wrestl ing? They put people in fatman suits and they try to buck each other. I mean nobody is going to get seriously hurt at it, okay. They have prizes there. I have wrestled for free at the Palomino Club in something that resembles prizefighting. Nobody is trying to hurt each ot her but there is a prize. Why is the commission not regulating that?

If you want to worry about the public interests, there was somebody who got in the ring in Grand Marais who was not trained as a wrestler and got split open from ear to ear by a wrestler who has a very perverse sense of humour. The commission did not stop it. I do not know if they had the power to or not but they were made aware of it. The fact is that it is two different games. In boxing, the need for protection is far greater than in wrestling. Wrestling self-regulates in this manner, Mr. Santos. Somebody learns in a big

June 24, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 26 hurry if they do not belong in the ring because they get em barrassed in front of a crowd, they get humilia ted, you know, their friends laugh at them and the guy's first match is often his last It is like getting on stage in im provtheatre or in comedy and getting laughed off the stage. It happens. I have been lucky, it never happened to me, thank God. Anytime they have laughed at me is because I wanted them to laugh, I think. Mr. Chalrperson: Thank you. Are there any other questions or comments? If not, thank you ever so much Mr.

Boroditsky for your presentation, a very interesting presentation this evening. Thank you very much. *** Mr. Chairper son: That com pl etes the public presenta tions. We will now proceed to consideration of the bills. We have a request to consider Bill 5 and then Bill 18 first. Is tha t agreeable with the comm ittee? We will proceed then to consider Bill 5 first and then Bill 18 and the rest in num erical order, if that is agreeable? Is that agreeable? Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern Affairs): Mr. Chai rperson, to accommo date the Minister responsible for Sport (Mr.

Stefanson)-1 think he has an engagement later on-we can do his bills first. Mr. Chairperson: Is it the will of the committee to consider Bill 15 ? Floor Comment: Bill by bill. Page by page. Mr. Chairperson: Bill 13 and Bi1115 ? An Honourable Member: Yes. Mr. Chairperson: Does the comm ittee agree to consider Bill 13 ? [agreed] 8111 13- The Manitoba Employee Ownership Fund Corporation Amendment Act Mr. Chairperson: We will then proceed to consider Bill 13 . As the committee is aware, the bill is considered first, and the title and

preamble are postponed until after all clauses have been considered in the proper order. What is the will of the commi ttee? Some Honourable Members: Page by page. Mr. Chairperson: Page by page? Is that agreed? [agreed] I understand that we have an amendment on Clause 2, so perhaps we will proceed clause by clause to begin with. An Honourable Member: Okay, then page by page. Mr. Chairperson: Clause 1-p ass; Clause 2. Bill 13 , we are considering Clause 2. Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): I move THAT

section 2 of the Bill be renumbered as

section 4 and the following be added as sections 2 and 3: 2 Subsection 4(3) is repealed and the following is substituted: Rights of Class "G " Special Shares 4(3) Where an agreement entered into between the Fund and the Government of Manitoba requires amendm ents to the rights attaching to the Class "G" Special Shares, the directors shall, by filing articles of amendment under The Corporations Act, make those amendmen ts. 3 Clause 5(1 )(

c) is amen ded by adding ", the Minister of Finance in trust for Her Majesty in right of Manitoba or the Minister of Finance (Canada) in trust for Her Majesty in right of Canada" after "corporate investors". THAT

section 3 of the Bill be renum bered as

section 5. THAT

section 4 of the Bill be struck out and the following substituted as

section 6: Coming into force 6( 1) This Act, except sections 2 and 3, is retroactive and is deemed to have come into force on March 21 , 19 92. Coming into force: sections 2 and 3 6(2) Sections 2 and 3 come into force on the day this Act receives royal assent. [French version] II est propose que !'article 2 du projet de loi devienne !'article 4 et que les articles suiv ants soient ajoutes apres !'article 1 : 2 Le paragraphe 4(3) est remplace par ce qui suit: Drolts rattaches aux actions speclales de categorle "G" 4(3) Les admin istrateurs apportent, en deposant des clauses modificatrices en conformite avec Ia

Loi sur les corporations, les modifications qu'une

27 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 24, 19 93 conventio n conclue en tre le Fonds et le gouvernement du Manitoba prevoit relativement aux droits rattaches aux actions speciales de categorie "G". 3 L'alinea 5(1 )

c) est modifie par adjonction, apres "institutionnels", de ", qu'au ministre des Finances en fiducie pour Sa Majesta du chef du Manitoba ou qu'au min istre des Finances (Canada) en fiducie pour Sa Majesta du chef du Canada". II est propose que !'article 3 du projet de loi devienne !'article 5. II est propose que !'article 4 du projet de loi soit supprime et que les di spositions suivantes soient ajoutees apres !'article 5: Entree en vigueur 6(1 ) La presente loi, a I' exception des articles 2 et 3, s'applique a compter du 21 mars 19 92.

Entree en vigueur: articles 2 et 3 6(2) Les articles 2 et 3 entrant en vigueur le jour de Ia sanction de Ia presente loi. Quite simply, Mr. Chairperson, what this does is, as outlined in the first portion that I read,

Section 4(3}, that the agreement between the fund and the government as it relates to the class "G" special shares, can be amended by the directors filing articles of amendment, that is, the directors of the Manitoba Employee Ownership Fund Corporation. Motion prese nted. *

(2040) Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (River Heights): I have a question for the minister. Prior to this amendment, would it have been necessary before class "G" shares had been acted upon, there would have had to have been a change to the legislation? Mr. Stefanson: I wonder if the member for River Heights could please repeat that question? Mrs. Carstalrs: Well, what you have done in this particular amendment is to change the rights of class "G" special shares.

Prior to this amendment, would it have been necessary, in order to have that change, because now you are saying it can be done by the di rectors, to come back to the Legislature prior to this? Mr. Stefanson: The answer is yes, Mr. Chairperson. Mrs. Carstalrs: Why was it decided by the department that they wanted greater flexibility for Class "G" Special Shares? Mr. Stefanson: Mr.

Chairperson, the original bill, Bill 13 , allows for some flexibility in terms of the Class "G" Shares which are being subscribed for, for a total of $2 million, whereby $1 million can be utilized in terms of the start-up costs of the fund. I think most members are aware that during the first subscription season this year, in 19 93, the fund raised approxima te ly $3.2 mi llion.

Wha t this provision now allows is, as we head into the next RRSP season, the flexibility to deal with any further adjustments that might be required expeditiously without having to come back to the legislative process in terms of the timing and the ability to deal with the RRSP season and the raising of capital for this particular fund. Mrs. Carstalrs: That seems reasonable, but what effect does it have on the liquidation provisions with regard to Class "G" shares? Mr. Stefanson: Mr.

Chai rperson, it is not this provision that necessarily creates the situation, but what could be done is, through agreement between the government and the fund, there could be adjustments made to the redemption value of those Class "G" Shares, so it would be the agreement between the government and the fund, but the fund through this amendment would have the flexibility to make that amendmen t without having to come back into the legislative process. Mrs. Carstalrs: The only concern I have is the protection for the owner of the share.

If in fact directors and the government can make decisions without recourse to the Legisl ature, then this particular shareholder has no recourse to the Legislature either. Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairperson, this amendment is only talking about the "G" Shares, which is us, the government of Manitoba. Mr. Chairperson: Amendme nt-pass. Mr. Stefanson: I am told, as part of that amendment, that I need to move that Legislative Council be authorized to change all

section number s and internal references necessary to carry out th e am endm en ts adopted by this committee. Mr. Chairperson: Clause 2, as amended-pass; Cla use 3-p ass; Cla use 4- pass; Title and

Preamble-pass. Bill as amended be reported. That completes consideration of Bill 13 .

June 24, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 28 Blll 15-The Boxing and Wrestling Commission Act Mr. Chairperson: We now move to Bill 15 . Again the Title and

Preamble will be left until the balance of the bill is considered. Clause 1 to Clause 9, inclusive- pass. *** Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (River Heights): Mr. Chairperson, I do not want to be difficult on this. We passed as far as

Section 4, but in fact, with the amendm ents, there are now

Section 5 and

Section 6. I would not want us to have passed only four sections. Mr. Chairperson: Are you referring to the previous bill, Mrs. Carstairs? Is that the previous bill you are referring to? Mrs. Carstalrs: Yes, I am talking about Bill 13 . Mr. Chairperson: Yes, we did an amendmen t allowing Legisla tive Counsel to renumber according to the changes that were made by the amendmen t. That was a proposed amendment that was agreed to. Hopefully, it is correct. Thank you for pointing that out. Mrs. Carstalrs: I hope so too. *** Mr. Chairperson: Coming back then to Bill 15 .

Shall Clauses 1 to 8 inclusive pass? [agreed] Shall Clause 9 pass? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister responsible and charged with the administration of The Boxing and Wrestling Com mission Ac t): Mr. Chairperson, I have an amendment for Clause 9, that is

Section 9 of the bi ll: THAT

section 9 of the Bill be amended by striking out subsection 9{3). [French version] II est propose que !'article 9 du projet de loi soit amende par suppression du paragraphe 9{3). There will then be an amendment that I will table when we get to

Section 28{1 ). But it might be appropriate to read it now , so that it is in context with the amendment that is being proposed. It is, THAT the following be added as subsection 28.1 : Delegation 28.1 The commission may delegate to one of its memb ers any power conferred on the commission under this Act except {

a) the power to hold a hearing under

section 18 or make an order under

section 20; and (

b) the power to make regulations. [French version] II est propose d'ajouter, apres !'article 28 du projet de loi, ce qui suit: Delegation 28.1 La Comm ission peut deleguer a l'un de ses commissaires les pouvoirs qui lui sont conferes en vertu de Ia presente loi, a !'exclusion: (

a) du pouvoir de tenir l'enquete prevue a !'a rticle 18 ou de rendre l' une des ordonnances prevues a l'article 20;

b) du pouvoir de prendre des reglements. So wha t those changes are, Se ction 9 delegated the power to potentially one commission member to deal with all aspects of this change is made now that any changes to the regulations and hold ing of any hearings would have to be the commission. The me mber for In terlake (Mr. Clif Evans) brought this to my attention.

Certainly, from our perspective, I think it is a responsible amendment, because in those two particular situations I think it would be more worthwhile to have the commission in its totality than to have one individual member dealin g with the regulations whic h get into the whole range of some of the concerns put before us today in terms of issues. Mrs. Carstalrs: Maybe I missed something, but I thought it was normal when we began a bill to ask if there are opening statements and to ask if anybody has any questions around this table? We seem to have gone into passing this bill without anything. Mr.

Chairperson: Did you wis h to ma ke an opening statement? Mrs. Carstalrs: Well, I actu ally have some questions I would like to ask of the minister, if that is permissible at this table tonight. Mr. Chairperson: Certainly. We have currently an amendment before us. But did you wish to ask a general question in terms of the bill? That is f1ne with the committee, I am sure, Mrs. Carstairs. Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr. Chairperson, with the greatest respect, the Chair did not ask if there were opening statements. The Chair did not ask if there are any

29 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 24, 19 93 qu estions. You imme dia tely la unched in to passage of the bill. I would like to just go back a little bit and ask the minister some questions. Mr. Chai rperson: That is agreed ? Does the committee agree?· An Honourable Member: Agreed. *

(2050) Mrs. Carstalrs: On the basis of the presentation by Mr. Boroditsky, can the min ister tell my why, in fact, we are regula ting boxing and wrestl ing together? Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairperson, even though it was dealt with under one act, there are separate regula tions that deal with bo xing. There are separate regulations that deal with wrestling. Clearly from what you have heard tonight, and the position of both of those in dustries and the information we have, is boxing is regulated much more strictly in many respects than wrestling. Mrs.

Carstalrs: We ll, is it the opinion of the government then that both of these activities at the professional level, because that is all we are regulating here, are sports? Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairperson, it is a recognition that there is a form of sport to both of them. In the area of wrestling, a great deal has been said about it being entertainm ent or sport entertainment.

As part of the changes that are before us, there was extensiv e consu ltation with the indu stry, with certainly the majority of people in the industry, and we found that within both industries, boxing and wrestling, there was a desire to have regulation. I think even more importantly, the wrestling has a provision that if we see movement into other more combative areas within wrestling, again we have the ability to regulate and protect the participants in that as well as the public at large.

Examples would be getting into kick boxing or kick wrestling and some of these kinds of other much more physical activities. So we feel for those reasons, particularly what direction it can have in the future, the industry itself is suggesting that there are reasons that they want it regulated. They want licensing and permits; they want enforcement and so on. Mrs. Carstalr s: Can the mi nis ter tell the committee tonight if it is the intention of the boxing commission, through the minister, to come up with tighter regulations which they are given within this act?

Is there any rewriting of regulations per se going on at the present time ? I am particularly referring to boxing here. Mr. Stefanson: As I did in dica te , th ere are separate regulations and as part of this whole legis lative change, yes, we are reviewing the regulations for both with a view in some areas, in boxing in particula r, to mak in g them more protective and stringent, examples being in the whole field of medi cal exam in ations, use of medication and those types of areas. Mrs. Carstalrs: Okay. Thank you. Mr. Chairperson: Before we continue, I would like to apologize to Mrs. Carstairs.

There is in the script before me an opportunity for the mini ster to make an opening statement and the critics for the two opposition parties for an opening statement, and I apologize for missing that in our procedures this evening. Certainly, every committee member has every opportunity to speak in general every time I speak to any specific clause. Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway}: One question. It seems to me hockey is as risky a thing as boxing. Is there a review of it, hockey? Mr. Stefans on: Mr. Chai rperson, there are regulations but hockey, li ke other professional sports, is self-regulated. Mr.

Chairperson: The amen dme nt before the committee, moved by the honourable minister THAT

section 9 of the Bill be amended by striking out subsection 9(3)-pass. [French version] II est propose que !'a rticle 9 du projet de loi soit amende par suppression du paragraphe 9(3). Clause 9, as amended-pass. Clauses 10 to 13 inclusive-pass; Clauses 14 to 18 inclus ive-p ass; Clauses 19 to 21 -pass; Clauses 22 to 27 inclusive-pass. Shall Clause 28 pass? Mr. Stefanson: As me.,. tioned, I ha ve an amendment for Clause 28 and I would move THAT the following be added to subsection 28.1: Deleg ation 28.1 The commission may delegate to one of its memb ers any power conferred on the commission under this act except (

a) the power to hold a hearing under

Section 18 or make an order under

Section 20; and (

b) the power to make regulations.

June 24, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 30 I believe I have already explained the rationale for that. [French version] II est propose d'ajouter, apres !'article 28 du projet de loi, ce qui suit: Delegation 28.1 La Comm ission peut deleguer a l'un de ses commissaires les pouvoirs qui lui sont conferes en vertu de Ia presente loi, a !'exclusion:

a) du pouvoir de tenir l'enquete prevue a !'a rticle 18 ou de rendre l'une des ordonnances prevues a ('article 20;

b) du pouvoir de prendre des reglements. Mr. Chairperson: Are there any questions or comments on the proposed amendment? It has been moved by the honourable minister that Clause 28 be amended. Does the committee wish me to read that? Motion presente d. Mr. Chairper son: The amen dmen t- pass ; Clause 28 as amended-pass; Clause 29 to 33 inclusive-p ass. Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairperson, I would move THAT Legislative Counsel be authorized to change all

section num bers and in ternal references necessary to carry out the amendmen ts adopted by this committee. [French version] II est propose que le conse ille r legisl atif soit autorise a modifier les num eros d'article et les renvois internes de fa9on a donner effet aux amendmen ts adoptes le Comite. Mr. Chairperson: Is that agreed? Pass. Title-pass;

Preamble-pass. Bill as amended be reported. That completes consideration of Bill 15 . *** Mr. Chairperson: Is it the will of the comm ittee that we now consider the bills in num erical order? Is it the will of the committee to do Bill 18 ? [agreed) 811118- The Corporations Amendment Act Mr. Chairperson: We will now consider Bill 18 , The Corporations Amen dmen t Act. Does the minister responsible for the bill have an opening statement? H

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-4-la2
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 4th hansardpdf la2.pdf
Language	en
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