VOL. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEHBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. TUESDAY, D~CEMBER 13, 1983 !-TO. 77

December 13, 1983, Tape 3932, Page 1 -- apb The House met at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER(Russell}: Order, please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS MR. SPEAKER: Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. SIMMS: The hon. the Minister of Mr. Speaker, on behalf of my colleagues, the Minister of Development(Mr. Windsor} and the Minister of Northern Development(Mr. Goudie), I wish to announce today that government is developing a new harvest plan for the George River Caribou herd, the largest in the world, a plan that we hope will eventually generate $5 million annually for the Labrador ~C~?omy.

This new plan provides the potential to double our present harvest through the esta9lishment of an outfitting business for non-resident hunters. The caribou of Northern Labrador are one of this Province's most precious resources. They are vitally important to native people and Labrador residents as a source of essential food, recreation, traditional and historical ties with the land and spiritual refreshment. In addition to these uses, and without placing any of them in jeopardy, they can also play a greater role in the economic development of the area.

The George River caribou herd of Northern Labrador and Nouveau Quebec has increased from near 5,000 animals in 1954 to an estimated 300,000 caribou in the Autumn of 1982. The population has proven to be exceptionally healthy and productive, and has been recently increasing at an estimated 12 per cent or 30,000 per year. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! 8723

December 13, 1983 , Tape 3932, Page 2 -- apb MR. SIMMS : In recent years, the herd has been the subject of fairly intensive studies which indicate that the herd could support a greater harvest rate without causing any important undesirable impact on the health and size of the herd . In fact, they have proven that this herd is the healthiest and fastest growing herd in North America . 87 24

December 13, 1983 Tape No. 3933 NM - 1 MR. SIMMS: As a result of these advancements and our knowledge of the herd's status and growth rate, we are changing the harvest policy respecting this herd. Until now, 10,000 to 12,000 animals per year are harvested by both Quebec and Labrador hunters, three-quarters of which, by the way, are harvested by Quebec. Here, only Labrador residents have been permitted to take the caribou. However, Quebec has encouraged the establishment of an outfitting business catering to non-resident hunters.

The Newfoundland and Labrador Wildlife Division will be making caribo~ hunting licences available to people who are not resident to Labrador. The availability of these licences creates the potential for the establishment of a hunter outfitting industry in Labrador by persons who are clearly competent in catering to non-resident hunters. The Province is sure that by providing a quality hunting experience, we can develop a sizeable, high-spending market in the North East USA. Thus, the Department of Development will be accepting proposals from prospective outfitters in the near future.

This proposal call will take the form of prospectuses, which clearly outline government's expectations of potential operators. A recent study indicates that the business of outfitting hunters could eventually provide over $5 million annually to the Labrador economy and provide for nearly 200 seasonal and permanent employment opportunities to Labrador residents. To put this in perspective, this $5 million would represent 1.5 times the $3.3 million generated by fishing and hunting outfitting establishments in 1982.

We believe that those who will benefit most from this change in policy will be the residents of Labrador who have the interest and wi:lingness to provide the requested services. P7'Jt; .1 : '- • ,

December 13, 1983 Tape No. 3933 NM - 2 MR. SIMMS: We are confident of the wisdom behind this policy change. The potential benefits are considerable both for the Province as a whole and particularly for the local people of Labrador who get involved with the outfitting business either as entrepreneurs or as employed guides. It will help bring greater provincial, national and even internationl attention to the importance of the George River herd as a vital renewable resource. Proper management of the herd is the key to its future and all concerned agencies and governments are giving this their full attention.

In the long run, the new harvest programme should help keep the herd in balance with its vast range as w~ll as provide new stimulus to the area. This kind of renewable resources is most appropriate for Northern communities where there are usually fewer opportunities for jobs and income. Unlike non- renewable resources ,which are eventually exhausted, the caribou of Northern Labrador if properly managed, can provide benefits to an infinite number of generations of Labradorians. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! o-,.,~ ~} I .:_ ... J

December 13, 1983 Tape No. 3934 so - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) _: The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, a few days ago the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. Goudie) said that I should hang my head in shame. I believe, Mr. Speaker, not only the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development but the !'1inister of Development (Mr. Windsor) and the Minister responsible for Wildlife {_Mr.

Simms) _ should resign from this House of Assembly as · of today, after coming in with such a statement 1that those three ministers got together and decided to take the heritage away from the native people of Labrador. This is what this government has done today, Mr. Speaker. Three ministers have decideu unilaterally that 1 look, to Hell with the native people, let us take away their caribou, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh. MR. WARREN: Those ·three ministers, Mr.

Speaker, all they are concerned about,and all this government is concerned about,is looking after a couple of people in Labrador who have small aircrafts that can get into the herd. And this is what this government is concerned about, Mr. Speaker, their own political buddies, And, Mr. Speaker, I would suggest to the minister the first thing,before you bring in any Ministerial Stata~ent such as this, the least he could have done was speak to the native people.

He would not even talk to the Labrador Inuit Association or th .e MNIA, to neither one of the native associations did the minister J have the intestinal fortitude of speaking, He comes in with this kind of a statement and expects to get $5 million into the Newfoundland economy and wipe out the native people~ Was that his main ambition? If that is his ambition 'when the Premier is talking about land claims? The minister does not have a clue, ~1r. Speaker, about hmiT the native people in Labrador live. I would Ea? i-: is a disgrace to the minister, it is 6727

December 13 , 1983 Tape No . 3934 SD - 2 MR . WARREN : a disgrace to that government to try to whip the rug from under the feet of the native people. And I believe it is just a disarace t~ ~ t the Minister of Development (Mr . Windsor 1 and a Labrador minister, the Minister of Rura .l, Agricultural and Northern Development (}1r. Goudie t 1 \-TOuld have any part of this kind of a programme. I would strongly suggest, Mr . Minister, that you do your home \rork first ; go in a talk to the people who have to depend on the cariBou for their way of living .

They do not have the ch ances to get the T-oone steaks as you and I have . Mr . Speaker , they have to depe nd on the caribou meat . And why bring in numerous planes and US residents or Canadian residents from outside of Labrador travelling in over th .e caribou herd? As the minister said, there are 3QO ,OOO caribou there, but give it about two years, Mr. Speaker, and it will be completely wiped out . 872~

December 13, 1983 Tape 3935 EC - 1 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, to conclude these few remarks, I would suggest strongly that the minister reassess the statement that he just made - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. WARREN: Oh, oh! Order, please! Order, please! - and look at the heritage, look at the traditional way of life of those people who are close to the caribou herd and do not just look at it for the sake of putting an extra $5 million into the provincial economy when you are going to wipe out a race of people in this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Opposition. MR. NEARY: ORAL QUESTIONS Mr. Speaker. The han. the Leader of the Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Finance when he intends to table the Auditor General's report and the accounts of the Province for the year ended 31 March 1983. We understand that the report has been in the hands of the minister now for about eleven days, and I believe the deadline is ten days, after ten days the minister has to table the report in the House. Would the hen. gentleman indicate when he intends to table the report? MR. SPEAKER: Finance. DR. COLLINS: moment, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: SOME HON. MEMBERS : The han. the Minister of At the earliest practical Hear , heaz:! Oh, oh! 8729

December 13, 1983 MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Tape 3935 EC - 2 A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the han. the Would the han. gentleman indicate if he intends to table the report in accordance with the Financial Administration Act or are they just qoing to stonewall and keep the report under wraps and not table it before the House rises for Christmas? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I certainly will be tabling it in accordance with the Financial Administration Act.

And just on that point, the han. the Leader of the Opposition, I think, was incorrect in his statement a moment or two ago. The Financial Administration Act says that the public accounts and the Auditor General's report should be tabled on or prior to January 31st if the House is sitting, and if the House is not sitting at that particular time, within, I think it is ten days of the House sitting in the New Year, so that there is absolutely no obligation to table the reports before January 31st.

It does not necessarily mean that they will not be tabled before that time, but there is absolutely no obligation in the Financial Administration Act to table then before January 31st; and certainly if the House is not sitting at a particular time when they are ready for tabling, it would be quite within the act not to table within,say,a week or ten days after the House sits in the Spring of next year. 8730

December 13, 1983 MR. NEARY: MR. SPEk~ER (Russell) : Opposition. MR. NEARY: Tape No. 3936 1-f..J - l A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Leader of the I do not know if the hon. gentleman is aware of it or not,but the House has been sitting now for a month, the hon. gentleman has the report, why does he not be man enough, why does he not have the courage to table it in the House? MR. SPEAKER: DR. COLLINS: The hon. the Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, I am absolutely overflowing with courage and I will be tabling them at the earliest possible moment. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Opposition. rm. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker. The han. the Leader of the Mr. Speaker, does the hon. gentleman intend to table the report before the House rises for Christmas, which could be another week or ten days? Is the hon. gentleman going to sit on the Auditor General's Report, on the Public Accounts for the next ten or twelve days when the House is sitting? ~he han. gentleman knows he has an obligation to table that report in this House. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I can assure the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) if the House is sitting in a week or ten days from now,I will have tabled the report by that time. MR. NEARY: Okay, fine. . MR. WAR..."mN : ~1R. SPEAKER: Mountains. Mr. Speaker. The hon. the member for Torngat MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, ~y question is to the Premier. Could the Premier tell us if he has been in contact or if the Canadian Forces have contacted him concerning 8731

December 13, 1983 Tape No. 3936 MJ - 2 MR. WARREN: the German Air ~orce u~in~ siMulated bombing in Labrador? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: I take that question under advisement, Mr. Speaker, and will get sorre additionaL information for the hon. member in the next couple of days. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the Prenier.

If the Premier does receive some correspondence from the Canadian Forces as it pertains to the Germans using simulated bombing in 2,500 square miles of Labrador,would the Premier, before any decision is made, undertake to carry out an environmental impact study on the area? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: I will take it under advisement, Mr. Speaker, and get back to the hon. member. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr.

Speaker, my third supplementary to the Premier: In view of the fact that the Germans are one of the many European groups that are against our seal hunt, would the Premier consider,in any negotiations pertaining to using a

section of our land for German Air ~orce exercises, that there would be a bartering point conce~ning our seal fi.s:-,ery? 8 73 r; • t~

December 13, 1983 Tape 3937 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, the question is more appropriately directed to the hon. member's colleagues in Ottawa. MR. NEARY: ~r : ·speaker. MR. SPEAKER: on a supplementary. MR. NEARY: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, The hon. Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Speaker , my Oh, oh! Order, please! - understanding of this question that was put my colleague is that the training of pilots iR low-level flying, that ten year agreement 1 that is not what we are talking about.

I•le are talking about the use of land ~ .• iles sriuare for :_1:facticing bornbin<J in Labrador, training oilots to kill .people throughout the world, yetwe are being held out as Barbarians by these people for killing seals. Now would the hon. gentleman answer the question that was put by my hon. colleague regarding the fifty miles square territory that falls under the jurisdiction of this Province?

Now would the hon.gentleman tell the House and tell the people of this Province if in any negotiations that may take place regarding fifty miles square of Newfoundland and Labrador territory to be used for dive bombing by the Luftwaffe, if the hon. gentleman will take advantage of any negotiations that he may have to trade off that for the West German Government allowing our seal products to be imported into West Germany? MR. SPEAKER: PREMIER PECKFORD: The hon. the Premier. Mr. Speaker, I think I have answered the question that the hon. member for Torgnat Mountains (Mr.

Warren) put to me, and I think the question that 8733

December 13 , 1983 Tape 3937 PK - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: Leader of the Opposition (Mr . Neary) is asking is essentially the same question. On the whole issue of this matter 1 I indicated that I will take the matter under advisement and get back to the hon . member . So we will examine al: of the ramifications of the .situation and then make a decision within the jurisdiction in which we have a decision to make, Mr. Speaker.

But the hon. member can be assured that we will take the whole matter into consideration in any de te rmination of what, if any, action the Province can take that is within their jurisdiction, that is within our jurisdiction . MR. SPEAKER{Russell): The hon. member for Port au Port . ~m . HODDER : Mr . Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Development (l-Ir .

Windsor) • I would like to ask the minister if he would tell me whether his department, which is responsible for the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation ,is considering any remedial action on ho .mes which were repaired through the Rural RRAP programme? 8734

December 13, 1983, Tape 3938, Page 1 -- apb MR. HODDER: many of those homes are not livable now, even though they were repaired through the Rural RRAP programme. MR. SPEAKER(Russell): The hen. the Minister of Development. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, I am not quite sure I understand what the hen. gentleman is getting at.The Rural RRAP programme is a federal programme which is administered by the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation in many areas of the Province on.behalf of the federal government; it provides grants and loans for repair .and rennovation of existing homes.

If these homes have fallen into a state of disrepair so as that they are not livable and cannot be repaired, then obviously those persons will have to look for alternative accommodation. The programme will only apply to a certain degree, and if they are gone past the point . of economic recovery and economic renewal, then there is very little, obviously, you can do with that particular unit. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr.

Speaker, the minister is aware that this programme has only been ongoing for some four or five years, and that,while it was a federal programme,the programme was delivered to the Province by Newfoundland and Labrador Housing and it was Newfoundland and Labrador Housing which carried out the provisions and the inspection of those homes. Now, what has happened throughout the Province is ttat ~any of those homes, some of them only two and three years cld, are now in such a condition that peo?le ·.:annct li'Je in them.

I know of twG cases in this Provir!ce, fr :n -:ny 0'.• ':1 personal knowledge, where homes we::-e R.i?Jl...Pe:"., -::~e::· ~.o·ere RRAPed incorrectly and the people had :.o :rc-;e =·a": c£ -:::-.el.r homes and Social Services, in tt.e::e ":; ·;c ==...:;;es, !:);;. .~ ::o pay for alternate 6735

December 13, 1983, Tape 3938, Page 2 -- apb MR. HODDER: accommodations for them. These people are trying to get the programme reopened to get some assistance. In some cases foundations are not correct; and the minister should realize that part of that programme said that the money should not be paid until the inspectors okayed it. Now, in many cases in this Province the inspectors did not. What I am asking the minister is, will he take responsibility for those homes? MR. SPEAKER(Russell): The hon. the Minister of Development. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman seems to be a little confused.

He says that some of these homes are only two or three years old. If the homes are two or three years old - MR. HODDER: MR. WINDSOR: is better. . The repairs. The repairs? Okay, that 'As it relates to the Rural RRAP programme may I first of all correct the han. gentleman. The corporation does not deliver Rural RRAP in all of the Province; we do deliver it in a significant portion, better that 50 per cent of the Province, but not in all of the Province; there are other delivery agents that deliver the programme on behalf of the federal government.

And this is precisely what Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation does, we deliver the programme on a fee-for-service basis simply because we have the personnel in various areas of the Province to undertake such activities on behalf of tb.e Corpcration. ,, -~.., 6 ,; . J

December 13, 1983 Tape No.3939 SD - l MR. WINDSOR: The programme is a repair programme. It does not guarantee that those repairs are going to last forever, it does not guarantee that the house will now be up to the national building code although every effort is made to ensure that wherever possible, certainly any renovations that are made would be up to normal standards. But that does not guarantee that repairs that are made to an electrical system in a particular house will guarantee that the foundation will not crumble in two or three years• time.

So obviously the corporation cannot take responsibility for the overall structural integrity of the unit. But, you know, as it relates to repairs that were done 1 I would assume that they were done with proper supervision and in accordance with proper construction practices. MR. HODDER: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker, MR. SPEAKER (Russelll: for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Supplementary, the han. member Mr.

Speaker, if the minister feels .that thev were done with proper inspection throughout the rural sections of the Province , then the minister is hiding his head in the sand because I believe he knows different, Because any member on the other side of the House - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: MR. HODDER: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: - 1;-1ho has these progra,rnmes ..,.. Oh, oh. Order, please: The Chair recognized th .e han. member for Port au Port on a supplementary question. As I have stated several times ,in asking supplementary questions there should not be need for any

preamble whatsoever. The hon. member is getting into a speech in debate on that iss ue . The hon. member for Port au Port. 8737

December 13, 1983 Tape No .. 3939 SD - 2 MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I will ask a new question. The minister's department also - SOI-!E HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER (_Russell)_: Order, please~ MR. HODDER: - administers the rural and remote programme thoughout this Province. In many cases cases, homes built with insnectors from his department watching, are now in just as bad condition or are more uncomfortable than the houses that the people originally lived in.

Would the minister consider, in this particular case , helping these people open their claims· so that they can now get the proper work done on their hous .es in cases where this happened? MR. SPEAKER: The hon, Minister of Development. MR.

WINDSOR: Mr Speaker, just to clarify the question for the hon. gentleman as it relates to whether or not the corporation delivers all of the R.W> in the Pmvince, I have figures here which indicate that in 1982 the corporation delivered approximately two-~~irds of that programme in the ~rovince and other agencies,such as the White Bay North Development Association, CMHC themselves on the Northern Peninsula, Newfoundland and Labrador Federation of Indians, the towns of Buchans and Badger and the town of Grand Falls,and others as well, have all been participating in this particular programme, I ass•;.me the hon, gentleman is referring to his particular area.

MR. HODDER: No. MR. WI)J!)SOR: You are speaking in general. MR. KODDER: :·J.;l.l 1 t!'te !l'.ajority of the areas · are being run anywher~, · '='tl k:tow - MR. WINDSOR: About two~thirds of them.are being delivered, Mr. so:·-:;:."<:.>:', by the corporation. SOME: HON. MEHBERS: Oh, oh ., MR. SPEAKER: ':::::der, please~ :: ... ~ '.: ~· ' ... J J

December 13, 1983 Tape No. 3939 SD - 3 MR. WINDSOR: Now the hon. gentleman refers to the rural and remote housing programme, Mr. Speaker. In that case,the rural and remote housing programme is, in fact, a mortgage lending 8739

December 13, 1983 Tape No. 3940 NM - 1 MR. WINDSOR: programme, and the corporation acts as does any other mortgage lender, the individual is responsible primarily for obtaining land on which to develop the unit and for obtaining a contractor to build that for him. So the corporation's responsibility is simply one of providing financing and a certain monitoring role. But again we do not ensure the integrity of the unit. Obviously the contractor who built the unit and the owner of the unith~ve a certain responsibility in that regard. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. member for Port au Port. Mr. HODDER: Mr.

Speaker, I am kind of amazed by the minister's answer because he does not give any hope to the people who have this type of housing that he will even intervene on their behalf. The question I would like to ask the minister is whether he does not feel that his department has some liability, especially since both in the RRAP Programme and the Rural-Remote Programme there were certain standards laid down. For instance,there was not supposed to be any cosmetic treatment of homes; in other words,siding should not go on until foundations were done. We found tl1at has been done and there is proof.

Any Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation office across this Province can tell the minister, or any of the S0cial Service people who now have to deal with a lot of those can tell the minister all about it. 'fJhat I 3.::c askinq ':hE: minister is does he not feel that he has a res?o~s~bility si~ce i~ was his inspectors who did this par-::ic:::..ll!!::: job, possi~J.::· !:lecause there were so many !J<eople askL1g f.::Jr it at ti'c :.; .::;:- .c:e -::ime that they bent under pressure. ?. 7 40 -I

December 13, 1983 Tape No. 3940 NM 2 MR. HODDER: Or, Mr. Speaker, would he sit down with his federal counterparts to try to help t~1ose people who have those problems? Some of them are very bad, would he try to iron this out and try to get something going on these particular houses? And there are thousands, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Minister of Development. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, it is very simple for the hon. gentleman to stand in his place and to cast aspersions on the corporation and on the programmes that we deliver without providing any details.

If the hon. gentleman has some specific cases that he would like to bring to my attention,! would be only too happy to investigate them and find out what the difficulties, if any, are. I am not prepared to accept what he is saying in general terms - MR. HODDER: Ask your colleague, the Minister of Social Services (~r. Hickey). MR. WINDSOR: - that every unit that was built under Rural Remote is falling down, or that every repair that was done under Rural RRAP 8741

December 13, 1983 Tape 3941 EC - 1 MR. WINDSOR: is no longer of any value and has since degenerated to the point where the units are no longer inhabitable. So, Mr. Speaker, if the hon. gentle­ man had something specific to say, let him say it, but let him not come out here and make very general comments - ~m. HODDER: I will and I have. MR. WINDSOR: - which tend to put a slant on all housing programmes delivered by the Corporation. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. CALLAN: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question as well for the Minister of Development. Around the turn of the last decade, Mr. Speaker, the former Liberal administration started to drill offshore. We know, of course, what kind of a state and a mess that that is in after ten years of Tory mismanagement. Also, during that same period of time, Mr. Speaker, the former Premier was talking about an aluminum smelter for this Province. Now, after eleven years of Tory administration, it is still at the talking stages. At least, of course, that is more than we can say with regard to the offshore.

Let me ask the Minister of Development, in view of his cor:rr:~ents over ·the lc>.st couple of days to the media· Nhen he s,J.id that the lc>.test COI:!!?an?. or the one that showed the most interest,does not appear as interested now in establishing a smelter in the Provi~ce as .:. ~ •...:as a couple of years ago if the ~ini~ter ··~o,~.J..c";_ i'l.il'n elabo=~ting on that statement, and would he qi7e us an update on the prospects fer the aluminum smelter? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Development. 8742

December 13, 1983 Tape 3941 EC ~ 2 MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, as much as it might upset the han. gentleman opposite, I think there is indeed a very high potential for development of an aluminum smelter in this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! MR. WINDSOR: Certainly it will be based on our resources and will be developed in accordance with the best interests of this Province and the people of the Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. WINDSOR: I·Te certainly will not be giving away the resource as han. gentlemen opposite have done in the past.

SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. WINDSOR: The fact of the matter is that we have done a proper feasibility study - SOME HON. .MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A few days ago there were complaints to the Chair that when a member is speaking, he does have a right to be heard in silence. At that time, I requestea han. members to my left and to my rig~t to adhere to that rule and I must ask them again. A question has been askea of the minister and I would request that he be given the right to be heard in silence. MR. WINDSOR: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, I can appreciate why hon. gentlemen might not like the answer, but since they have asked the question, I certainly intend to answer as best I can. SOME HON. .MEMBERS : Hear, hear! 8743

December 13, 1983 Tape 3941 EC - 3 MR. WINDSOR: The fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, that we have done very exhaustive feasibility studies on the establishment of an aluminum smelter, starting out originally with in-house studies and 8744

December 13, 1983 Tape No. 3942 M.J - 1 MR. WINDSOR: undertaking a very extensive marketing programme to identify companies that had particular interest in this Province based on Labrador's tremendous hydro potential. Resulting from that,of course, we were able to put in place a joint feasibility study with ARCO Aluminum Company,which was a very exhaustive study costing in the order of $500,000, and this Province put in 50 per cent of that. That study has shown very conclusively, Mr.

Speaker, that Newfoundland is indeed a world class site as it relates to the establishment of an aluminum smelter and certainly when additional aluminum smelter capacity is required,Newfoundland will be in the forefront as it relates to potential developments. Unfortunately,the company that we are dealing with have now seen that within their iromediate future they do not perceive that they will have a need to proceed with construction of a smelter,so they have at least deferred for the time being any plans in that regard. That does not deter us at all, Mr. Speaker.

"!re are move ahead actively now in pursuing other companies. t·"P. have the agreement of ARCO to utilize all of the informatio~ the very detailed studies that were done in that feasibility study, we can utilize that information now as part of a marketing package and we are moving forward with other companies to investigate their interests in that regard. MR. CALLAN: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. CALLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. The han. the member for Bellevue. Mr. Speaker, we are glad to hear that the company has given the Province permission to use that study. MR.

NEARY: Well, they $500,000 of ta:<'?a"ers' money,so why should they not? MR. CALLAN: Well,actually the Province paid 25 per cent, the feds 25 per cent and the company the remaining 8745

December 13 1 1983 MR. CALLAN: SO f.lE HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. · CALLAN: Tape No. 3942 $250,000. Oh, ohl MJ - 2 Order,pleasel Order, pl.easel Now, r.~r. ·speaker, let me ask the minister by way of a supplementary,when this companyi-Atlantic Richfield, when the report was tabled back in the Spring there was several contingencies, I mention that one of the contin(fencies includes a 50 to 60 per cent increase in the market price of aluminum or economic subsidies to allow the project to achieve a satisfactory rate. There were four or five contingencies listed., as t.he minister is aware ,I am sure. Let me ask the minister has any of these contingencie ·s 8746

December 13, 1983 Tape 3943 PK - 1 MR. CALLAN: changed or are they the same now as they were six months ago, and is that the reason why it is still no longer feasible? MR. SPEAKER (Russell ) : The hon. Minister of Development. MR. WINDSOR: Well, Mr. Speaker, in our opinion there are very positive changes to the factors affecting the construction of aluminum smelter in this Province since the study was undertaken.

In fact, ·· at the ;;JOint in tiEe, the snap­ shot in time of the economy of our Province which was studied in that particular feasibility study,was probably at our worse particular point in time, about eighteen months ago. So obviously the economy has improved since then. Interest rates have improved,which impact on a number of factors, the construction costs of the smelter itself as well as the projected costs that might be required for provision of electricity.

Prices that are now being received for aluminum are steadly increasing and recent projections~ as reported in The Globe and Mail and Financial Post 1 indicate in fact that the price for aluminum will continue to rise on a regular basis. That of course, Mr. Speaker, - MR. NEARY: Dream on!Dream on! MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) does not want the answer to the question,I . think the hon. member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) does and I will try to give it to him. MR. NEARY: Dream on! MR. : WINDSOR: Mr.

Speaker, the prices of aluminum are rising s~ly as predicted in our feasibility stud~ and perhaps a little in excess of the r.ate of im3?rove.,lent that we predicted. There are other factors,such as technology improvements,which can in fact give some considerable savings on the captial cost of the project . So we feel quite strongly that the situation now is far better than it was at the point 8747

Decemb .er 13, 1983 Tape 394 3 PK - 2 MR. WINDSOR: in tii!te when the feasibility study was carried out. And we are still quite optimistic that we can in fact put together a proposal which will be feasible and viable and will be a substantial contribl).tor to the economy of this Province. SOME HON •. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAl<ER (Rus ·sell) : MR. CALLAN: Hear, hear! The hon.nember for B.ellevue. A supplementary. Mr.

Speaker, one of the four or five contingencies that we just mentioned, one of them is that a commitment to develop the Lower Churchill River ._of course would be an incentive to any industry wanting to locate in the Province. Could the minister tell: us what is the status of that commitment and that contingency with regard to the aluminum srnel ter? 874 8

December 13, 1983, Tape 3944, Page 1 -- apb ~~. SPEAKER(Russell): Development. MR. WINDSOR: The han. the Minister of Mr. Speaker, obviously, in any energy intensive industry such as this one basic requirement would be the availability of energy,and so that will require either the development of a new site on the Lower Churchill River,or the availability of power from the Upper Churchill River, or some other source, and obviously government is moving ahead on several fronts to determine just what opportunities will be available in that regard. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains . MR.

WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minsiter of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Simms). The minister, earlier today, made a Ministerial Statement concerning the George River caribou herd and the commerical harvest. Could the minister advise this hon. House which native groups his department has been in contact with,or consulted with before the minister brought in this Ministerial Statement? MR. SPEAKER: Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. SIMMS: The hon. the Minister of Mr.

Speaker, first of all, may I say that I am extremely, extremely surprised at the attitude displayed by the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) in his response to the Ministerial Statement, to begin with. I had, along with a lot of other people on this side, considered him to be one of the leading aspirants for the leadership of the party opposite because of his reasonableness, his rational thinking, and his rational explanations and expressions. But,obviously, I am going to ~ave to consider my pledge of support to him and might ask ~hat he send back the $2.01 I sent over to him 8749

D~cember 13, 1983, Tape 3944, Page 2 -- apb MR, SIMMS: campaign. last week toward hi:> Mr. Speaker, this is a project and a change in harvesting plan that was determined after a feasibility study has been undertaken by a local corporation to determine whether or not the resource there was underutilized and i.f it was feasible to harvest it . That study indicated that it was , and we have, indeed , decided to utilize that particular resource.

Right now there are about 12 ,000 animals harvested from that resource annually, 9,000 of ·which are harvested by the Governme .nt of Quebec through their outfitting business which they have had in existence for years. We have not been taking advantage of the resource; we have decided now that there is a possibilit .y and a good possibility of making available to the economy of Labrador approximately $5 million worth of business. Of course, the other side of it is that there is a possibility of some 200 jobs, we estimate, being developed, and I think that is a pos~tive step, Mr. Speaker . 8750

December 13, 1983 SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. WARREN: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Tape 3945 EC - 1 Hear, hear! A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the han. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: I will ask the minister the question again. Have the minister's officials consulted with the two native associations in Labrador before the minister decided to take this unilateral action? MR. NEARY: A good question. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. SIMMS: Well, Mr.

Speaker, first of all, I want to give the han. the member for Torngat Mountains the asstrrance that this particular change in harvesting plan will have no effect detrimentally at all on the harvesting that is now done by the native people. They will still be able to continue to harvest that resource without any detriment at all.

The other point is, of course, that we have had representations over the past couple of years from numerous people in the Labrador area who have expressed an interest and a desire to develop something like this and to take advantage of the resource that is available, to create 200 jobs and ~=ovice ~ $5 million stimulus to the economy of Labrador. Now, I would find it impossible to believe that the han. the member for Torngat Mountains t·:ould be at]ain-:;t that kind of a oro:x:>EaL SOHE HON. !!EI1B:EP.S: MR. WARREN: MR. SPEAKER: Torngat Mountains. ~IR. WARREN: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker. The han. the member for Mr.

Speaker, I gather from the 8751

December 13, 1983 Tape 3945 EC - 2 MR. WARREN: minister 's ans\>ler there was no consultation. Again, another example, Mr. Speaker: It was c;mly about two years ago the Premier betrayed the native people,and now we have the minist er betraying the native people, Mr. Speake .r. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! Order, please! The hen. the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) is proceeding to make a speech. I would request him to ask a precise question. MR. WARREN: Mr.

Speaker, my supplementary to the minister is, since he did not answer the question as to whether there was anY consultation or not, can the minister guarantee that there will not - at the present t~e, the native people in the Nain - Davis Inlet area hunt the caribou by means of land- transportation and it is not having . any effect on the caribou herd - wil .l the minister guar .antee that if this commercial harvest comes about, that there will not be any aircraft used to go into the center of the herd and disrupt the herd? c752

December 13, 1983 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Recreation and Youth. MR. SIMMS: Tape No. 3946 MJ - 1 The hon. the Minister of Culture, Mr. Speaker, the flight paths of aircraft does not come under the jurisdiction of my department so I do not quite know how to respond to that question. Whatever development takes place will be done with the proper assessment, whatever assessment is required. MR. WARREN: MR. SPEAKER: Mountains. MR. WARREN: minister undertake - ~~"-· ;-.~~-''.~Y: MR. WARREN: SOME HON. - MEI1BERS : MR. WARREN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker - The hon. the member for Torngat - to the minister.

Would the To table the feasibility study. :r<"ir~t? Clkav.

Oh,· oh!. to table the feasibility study that was done by the Assistant Deputy Minister of Rural Development in Goose Bay 1 who has ~·1anted fn!:' the last tt ree years to have a commercial hunt, who started the whole thing ~oin0 ih Goose Bay about four years ago - t~at Assistant Deputy Minister that is the guy who started the whole ball rolling - would the minister a~~ee to table this report and to -anvise this hon. ~ouse if he ot his officials will be sitting down with the native people in the Province concerning an action that his department has taken without any consultation? MR.

SPEAKER: The hen. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. SI~~S: Mr. Speaker, I can understand now why :r.y !JffL::e ha::; been flooded with phone calls over the last -:·"o •.v(;le<s asking for the hen. lle!'lber's Provincial Affairs ?~O~~~r:,~ or. -:.sc to be shown again. Now I realize 8753

December 13, 1983 Tape No. 3946 MJ - 2 MR. SIMMS: why it has been done. Mr. Speaker, as I said in a statement and as I said in response to earlier questions, the harvesting that has been done by the native people will not be in jeopardy at all, it will have no effect whatsoever. The feasibility study the han. member refers to is one that was done in conjunction with the federal government, by the way, not the one ·that you are referring to by a former Assistant Deputy Minister. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Opposition. MR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker. The hon. the Leader of the Mr.

Speaker, I have got a quicky ·for the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) today. Back in June when the administration declared a holiday,the hon. gentleman went public and said that he wanted the businesses who did not observe the holiday to be prosecuted. Now would the hon. gentleman tell the Hou~e what action has· been taken? Rave they abandoned the idea of prosecuting the businesses that stayed open in defiance of the law? Mr. Speaker, has the administration backtracked now? Could the hon. gentleman tell the House what the status of that situation is now? 8754

December 13, 1983 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : and Manpower. MR. DINN: Tape No. 3947 NM - l The hon. Minister of Labour Mr. Speaker, I realize that that is one of the questions that the Opposition spent several weeks in trying to determine when they would get an opportunity to ask because it is of such urgent public importance. I will get a status report, an up-date, a status report for the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) and provide it to him as soon as it is can possibly be done. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The time for the Question Period has expired.

PRESENTING REPORTS OF STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES: MR. SPEAKER: DR. COLLINS: The hon. the Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, as required by the Financial Administration Act,today I table the Public Accounts of the Province for the year ending - SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! DR. COLLINS: - Harch 31, 1983, that is the fiscal year which ended earlier this present calendar year. In doing sot! .would like to point out to the hon. House that this is a considerable achievement. Never before have the Public Accounts been tabled at such an early date.

Indeed, never before have .they been tabled in the same calenda~ year in which the related fiscal year ended. Mr. Speaker, the compilation of the Public Accounts is a very large undertaking consisting of a review and

summary of all the many transactions during the year by the departments and by goverment as a whole, together with a statement of the financial position of the government at the end of the year. It is 1therefore 1 only 8755

December 13, 1983 Tape No. 3947 NM - 2 DR. COLLINS: right that I should congratulate the Comptroller General of the Province, one of the two most senior officials in the Department of Finance, as well as his staf f, for completing this unusual feat. My action in tabling the Public Accounts with such alacrity is also in keeping with the fundamental policy of openness and accountability of this government in its dealings with the House and with the people of this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! DR.

COLLINS: In this connection 1 I would point out that the Public Accounts are being tabled at the earliest practical moment, so much so that printed copies for circulation to the members of the House , the public and the media, will not be available for a further week or so. When this unavoidable delay in printing became obvious, I felt it best to table the original, signed, Public Accounts document received by me without further delay. Mr. Speaker, I also take pleasure pursuant to the Financial Administration Act in tabling the report of the Auditor General. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

NEARY: We finally wormed it out of him. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! Order, please! DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, that is for the same fiscal year - SOME HON • MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. 5F:';:KER: Order, plaase: DR. COLLINS: - that is for the same fiscal year to which the Public Accounts apply. 8 7 ~. ;::: .... ., )

December 13, 1983 Tape No. 3947 NM - 3 DR. COLLINS: Accordin0ly, I extend my conqratulations to the Auditor General and his staff for matching the diligence of the Department of Finance by such early presentation of his annual report also. MR. NEARY: SOME RON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : DR. COLLINS: Another victory for the Opposition. Hear, hear! Order, please! Order, please! Mr. Speaker, as has been the practice of this administration since takinq office, I aJ~n table the document entitled Departmental Observations on the Report of the Auditor General for the Fiscal Year ending March 31, 1983.

The purpose of this document, and a most useful one it is, is to show clearly the response of each department of government to the comments on its performance contained in the Auditor General's annual report. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, the tabling of these three important documents gives a complete view of all aspects of the financial operations of government for the year which ended just a 'little over eight months ago. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 8757

December 13, 1983 Tape No. 3948 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (_Russell): A point of order, the han. Leader of tne Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the han. gentleman if he has copies for the Opposition of the Auditor General's Report? Is there a spare copy or is there only one copy? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary)_ used the occasion to ask a question and obviously it is not a valid point of order whatsoever. MR. NEARY: By leave. r'!e will give him permisscion to answer.

ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Leader of the Opposition asked about the medal for the merchant seamen and I was trying to explain yesterday to the Leader of the Opposition from memory about three different groups of people, one who have already got the volunteer medal who 'I'Tere for all intents and purposes in conflict in the last war; then there were the foresters,and the Leader of the Opposition was asking about the merchant seamen.

As it relates to the merchant seamen ,we have gotten back to tn .e merchant seamen saying that we are agreeable to the concept of a medal,but we are waiting to hear back from them as it relates to the terms, the definition of ~ercha~t Seamen in terms Qf cimes c~ service . routes to '!:>e ~er•:e:::: and so on. 2-IF • ::::.:-n..:::.:z : Do t~ay have their own orga;-,i za tion? PR£CC::l PECKFORD: Yes. Someone representing t:.._e :.:: ;rDup wrote us and we have wr.: i:ten them back and said a ~/ :; ~~ ~L

December 13, 1983 Tape No. 3948 SD - 2 PREHIER PECKFORD: to them we are agreeable to the concept, we just want some more definition of what a merchant seaman actually is so that we can get an idea. MR. NEARY: That was done years ago. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: Let me answer the question first, that is all I am asking. I am trying to explain something - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: - to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary}.

In accordance with the rules I undertook to get an answer from the Leader of the Opposition for today, and I am trying to answer the question. We aiready have issued a medal to a group of servicemen. There is another group called the foresters who wish to have the same medal as the first group, and we said to them, 'No, because you are a different group all .together and most of you served in England rather than actually at the front', for want of better terminology I can think of right now, and you should have your own distinct medal'.

The foresters are still insisting on having the same medal as the first group. Then there is the third group, the merchant seamen, and we have written them back and said to them, 'Yes, we are agreeable in concept for you having a medal and we wish to now get into discussions with you on the definition of a merchant seaman because we need to know the definition so that we will know the numbers we are talking about so we will be able to determine the cost'. And that is where that is at the present moment. MR. NEARY: How long ago was that? PREMIER PECKFORD: I do not know the exact date.

I can get that information for the Leader of the Opposition. But 8759

December 13, 1983 Tape No . 3948 so - 3 PREMIER PECKFORD : we have gotten back to them and we are waiting to hear from them on the definition so that then we can finalize something for them. MR . MARSHALL : ORDERS OF THE DAY Order 17, Bill No. 21 . "t-1otion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Ne\qfoundland Public Service Commission Act , 1973". (Bill No. 21). MR . SPEAKER (Russell) .: The hon . Leader of the Opposition (Mr . Nearyi, adjourned the debate . The hon. Leader of the Opposition . MR . NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, there is not much r guess I can add to what I have al ready said in debating this bill . Yesterday I opened my ·few remarks by stating that the hon. gentleman who introduced th.e bill did not seem to grasp, did not seem to have the background, · of what it was all about . He was pinch -hitting 87 60

December 13, 1983 Tape 3949 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: for the Minister of Public Works and Services (Mr. Young), so now that that han. gentleman is back in his seat maybe when second reading of the bill is being closed, Mr. Speaker, we may get a lecture froml~he Minister of Public Works and Services as to why these changes were necessary, something we did not get yesterday from the I Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall). So at least one member of the Commission shall be appointed from the public service of the Province.

That is the way it is now, but the amendment is to provide that a period of service as a member of the Commission counts towards the ten years of public service required for the purpose of subsection (4) of

Section 6. So I think what the han. gentleman was trying to say was that it would be no longer necessary - with this ameri&r.ent - to appoint an executive from the public service to oversee promotions and appointments and so forth, that that would no longe:r be necessary, that a member of the public service could build up ten years of service while he is a member of the Commission and did not necessarily have to be an executive type. It is too had the hnn. crentlem~~ was not here yesterdav to qive us some intellirro=>n.t h;:>.c!-:,..,:""?Un..._ on this informa t_ion. MR. WARREN: It is impossible! MR.

NEARY: The hon. gentleman could have saved a lot of time in this House if he had been in his seat yesterday when this very important piece of legislation, Mr. Speaker, was being brought into the Eouse,when the hon. Government House Leader did not seem to understand what it was all about. Now,here we are again,twelve days before Christmas, the Province in chaos, Mr. Speaker, we are on the brink of financial ruin, the economy is in the 8761

December 13, 1983 Tape 3949 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: worst state it has been in in our whole history. We are on the brink of bankruptcy, and if we were not a Province of Canada today we would be bankrupt. We have 60,000 Newfoundlanders unemployed, most of them, 50 per cent of them young people between the ages of sixteen• and twenty-five,and here we are forced to debate a bill, Mr. Speaker, that will change the status of a member of the Public Service Commission. They have their priorities upside-down.

We have the highest taxes in Canada, sick people lying in corridors in hospitals waiting for beds, as a result of the government's restraint programme. The fishery is in chaos. The-pulp and paper industry is almost on the brink of ruin. The mining industry is in the middle of a bad recession. We have large numbers of fish plant workers and fishermen who do not qualify for unemployment insurance,the first time since Confederation, Mr. Speaker, and here is what we are forced to debate. MR. MARSHALL: order. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): President of the co-~cil. Mr. Speaker, on a point of On a point of order, the han. MR.

MARSHALL: Of course,the day would not be complete if the hon. gentleman were not called to order, but he is not being germane to the bil:, Mr. Speaker. This is a bill relating to a change in the Pub~ic Service Commission. It is a bill that relates to the qualifi~ation to be a commissioner and ~~e requirement with respect to dc~~g certain reports andto delegated authority. Now, the !"lon. ~:::;:;tle:nan can ~et '.lP a~d oy saying, you know, this bill do~~ ~~~ ieal wit~ the eco4lomy and go on and talk about irrele"3.:1t :natters, but he is being irrelevant to the principle of the bill. MR.

HODDER: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. 8762

..., December 13, 19 83 MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): hon . member for Port Au Port. MR. HODDER : Tape 3949 PK - 3 To that point of order, · the Mr. Speaker, it seems to me that the hon . gentleman opposite protests too much,because every time the hon. gentleman speaks,and he has on a number of occasio ns in the past couple of days, he tells us how great the legislation is that the government brings in. 8763

December 13, 1983, Tape 3950, Page 1 -- apb MR. HODDER: Well,if he has the right to be able to say that when he is speaking on the bill, Mr. Speaker, I am sure we can talk to the bill to point out, and I think it is germane to the bill,as well, that the legislation is practically worthless and that what the government is saying about the legislation the y have brought in this session is totally untrue. MR. SPEAKER(Aylward): Order, please! I have to agree that the hon.the Leader of the Opposition(Mr. Neary) is straying somewhat from the principle of this bill.

I would remind him of our rule of relevancy, and that we are discussing Bill No. 21, "An Act To Amend The Public Service Commission Act, 1973". Opposition. MR. NEARY: The han. the Leader of the Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I apologize if I was straying there a little but, but really what I was doing was trying to illustrate to the House and to the people of this Province the priorities of this administration, and I think that is fair enough. They seem to have their priorities upside-down. This is not the kind of legislation that we should be debating in this House now, Mr.

Speaker, what we should be talking about is the economy, jobs, what plans the administration have for dealing with unemployment~ and tell us what they intend to do about hospital user pay fees . MR. MAR SHALL: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. M_~. SPEAKER(Aylward ): the President of the Co~'c i l. MR. MARSHALL: A p ~ int of order, ~he han. Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman has already been ruled out of order and he still ?ersists. Now, the fact of the matter is the han. gentleman 8764

December 13, 1983, Tape 3950, Page 2 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: has plenty of time to ask questions about the economy or anything he wishes during Question Period, during the Late Show. And we saw the depth of his interest today in the type of questions he asked of the Minister of Labour and Manpower(Mr. Dinn). He just had a half hour to ask questions about the economy and he asked virtually nothing about it. This is a matter which relates to the principle of the bill; the principle of this bill, Mr.

Speaker, relates to the Public Service Commission and the complement of the Commission and, as I said, the matter of delegated authority. And the han. gentleman is out of order. He has been called to order by Your Honour, and yet he persists in his irrelevancy. MR. SPEAKER(Aylward): The han. the Leader of the Opposition to that point of order. MR. NEARY: ·Mr. Speaker, that is the kind of a comment you would get from a small man with a small mind.

As I indicated during my few remarks, when Your Honour made his ruling, I thanked Your Honour, I apologized to the Chair for straying, but I believe that we are allowed, Mr. Speaker, when we are talking about · legislation, to indicate whether or not this is the government's number one priority, and that is precisely what I was doing. All the han. gentleman is doing is interrupting me unnecessarily. Mr. Speaker, they can try to rush legislation through, they can try to bully the Opposition as much as they want, but we are going to stay here as long as is necessary to debate this legislation thoroughly.

The han. gentleman can get as testy as he wants. I know he '.-'ants to close the House down. He wants to get out of the Eouse. He has got pressure from his own members to shut "er ::!o<:m, bu-t, '~. Speaker, we intend to stay here as lon~ ~= is necessary. Even if we have to stay here until New Year's ;::·:e, it cces not make any difference 8765

December 13, 1983, Tape 3950, Page 3 -- apb MR. NEARY: intend to stay . to us , Mr. Speaker, we And now we have all kinds of ammunition in the Auditor General's Report; we have the Springdale ferry we can talk about, Mr. Speaker. S,OI.ffi RON . t.fEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR . SPEAKER(Aylward): Order, please! MR. NEARY: The point I was making, ~tr. Speaker, and that is why I am arguing, there is no point of order . I was not defying Your Honour's ruling, as the hon. gentleman said. The bon . gentleman tries to browbeat the Chair. Being the snob and the aristocrat that he is, he t.ries to bully the Chair.

All I was implying, ~tr . Speaker, is that we have a lot more important things to debate in this House than this piece of legislation that we have before us now. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please ! 8766

December 13, 1983 Tape 3951 EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): To that point of order, I have to rule again that there is a valid point of order. The intention of this debate is to debate the ·principle of the bill, The Public Service Act, not to debate its relevancy or its irrelevancy at this time. I would ask the han. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) to direct his remarks to the principle of the bill,

An Act To Amend The Public Service Commission Act, 1973. MR. NEARY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we now see some­ thing else happening in the House. They are now gone on the shift system. They have so many members now who can go home, stay home for a few days. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: I do not know what shift we have today. They are working on three shifts over there now, we have A, B and C shift. I do not know what shift we have today. But it does not make any difference what shift they have, Mr. Speaker. !"B. BA~~TT : MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: ThiR is thP.

Terra Nova shift. Order, please! We are going to talk about legislation like this bill we have in front of us as long as is necessary and they can get on the shift system all they want, it does not make any difference to us. It is not the quantity on this side that counts, it is the quality, Mr. Speaker. When the minister is closing second rea·:3.1.n9' on this bill, perhaps he would give us a report on t:-:"l status of the Public Service Commission, tell us who t~a 9resent members of the Commission are, 8767

December 13, 1983 Tape 39 .51 EC 2 MR. NEARY: how long they are appointed for, tell us something about their background. DR. COLLI~!S: What they will get for Christmas. MR. NEARY: What they will get for Christmas? - No, that is all cut out now. You are not even allowed to take a brace of rabbits now, I understand, since the Premier brought in the new regulations. But it would be interesting to see how much interference there has been with the Public Service Commission by this administration. Because, Mr. Speaker, we have something new happening in this Province today.

We have a group of men led by the han. gentleman directly opposite, who will get up and talk about integrity and honesty, use pious words to illustrate the halo they have over their heads as far as appointments in the Public Service are concerned,and when it comes to political patronage and political appointments, Mr. Speaker, any previous administration in this Province, and probably future administrations, could learn from this crowd.

They wrote the book when it comes to political appointments, and yet they have the brazenness to stand in this House and say, 'We are an administration of integrity and honesty.' Mr. Speaker , we have people pouring into our offices, letters from public servants all over this Province who feel they have been shafted and discriminated against. They do not want their names to be known because of the reprisals and the disciplinary action that could be taken by the gentla~en there opposite. Mr. Speaker, it seens tc us that the Public Se:::-vice Commission is merely a :ubber stamP for the a~~inistration.

A year and a half ago, the Ombudsman, a fo~e:::- ~ember of the Tory Party who was .... .., ~- :I :: C

December 13, 1983 Tape 3951 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: defeated in politics, appointed Ombudsman by the - MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): Order, please~ I would remind the bon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) of the rule of relevancy a.gain. we are discussing

An Act To Amend The Public Service Commission Act, 1973. MR. NEARY: That is right, and that is what I am talking about, Mr. Speaker. I am talking about an appointment that was made by the }f.iniste .r of Fisheries (Mr. Morgart) when the Ombudsman had to issue a special report. .Mr. Speaker, the Ombudsman is a gentleman appointed by the administration there opposite so I would not consider that gentleman to be very impartial when it comes to partisan, political affiliations or leanings. But yet, that gentleman, in conscience, felt it was necessary to write a special report and submit a special report to this House 8769

December 13, 1983 Tape No. 3952 MJ - 1 MR. NEARY: about the way that a minister made an appointment in his department. MR. MORGAN: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: Yes, and I am proud of it. Hear, hear! The hon. gentleman is proud of it. The hon. gentleman should be proud of it. MR. MORGAN :: MR. NEARY: A good PC 1 a ~- ':':'o:rv and R ('(X)(l_ E!:""'lovee. A good Tory and a good pc ·. Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman was taken to task by the On!:>Udsrnan in a special report to the House of Assembly.

We only have two servants of this House, one is the Auditor General-- no, we have three now, "'tone is the Auditor General, one is the Comptroller of the Treasury, and the third one is the Ombudsman. The Ombudsman felt so enraged - MR. MORGAN: And he was wrong. MR. NEARY: - he felt so enraged _ about the blatant abuse of the ministry in overruling the Public Service Commission that he wrote a special report and took the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) to task. MR. MORGAN: ~·Te c>.re all !..i!1eral ,- ~-!:':1" not? You cannot find ""\an'' !..i~er21.ls in the !':o:ovince these days. MR.

NEARY: Look, I have some documents here from Mr. Rybacki perhaps the hon. gentleman should go out and deal with that. Look, I am getting fed up with .. getting reports about the hon. gentleman's pavement down in Salvage. MR. MORGAN : You poor fellow. Is it :':laved in Salvage? T~at is news to me. It will be ?aved in Salvage next year, I will -::ell yc·J. -::::.a':. ~R. ~~E..:';~y : :-!r. .5<J;:a.!l:.cr, so t;,e Ombudsman had ':o write a special report. Now,how did this administration cf ir.c:egrity and honesty, how did they deal \V'ith that re9ort?

Can ::1e han. the member for Menihek (1-'..r. t"''alsh) tell us how 8770

December 13, 1983 Tape No. 3952 MJ - 2 MR. NEARY: they dealt with it? The Premier took it and swept it under the rug, said it was all a misunderstanding. HR. 1-fORGAN: MR. NEARY: MR. MORGAN: MR. NEARY: I~e T.·Tas ~·rron". Who was wrong? The Ombudsman. Will the han. gentleman stand up and say the Ombudsman was wrong? MR. MORGAN: I:ce ·•:Ti".S '"'rOVen ~·rroni"T. MR. NEARY: You know, Mr. Speaker, if the han. gentleman thinks the Ombudsman was wrong - MR. MORGAN: That is right, he is only human. MR.

NEARY: - and the administration there opposite thinks he was wrong, I ask them now in all fairness, fair play. and_ 'lri tish ~ ustice, brinrT the Or.>JJudo:;n.-.n ~efore the Bar of the House and let us question the Ombudsman on that special report that he had to write. MR. TOBIN: There was no Ombudsman in your day, was there? There was no Public Service Commission either. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. DINN: bargaining either. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : MR. NEARY: Oh, oh! There was no collective Order, please! I thought they had the member for Burin·- Placentia West (Mr.

Tobin) silenced. ~ecau~e he has been told by his own members that what he is doing is digging a hole for himself, that his own constituents are getting browned off and they advised him to - MR. TOBIN: That is why you had so many •Jut to the T'!eeting. 8771

December 13, 1983 MR. NEARY: MR. TOBIN: MR. NEARY: Tape No. 3952 MJ - 3 - button the opening. How are things in Terra Nova? ~his is the first time now that he has surfaced for a long time. 8772

December 13, 1983 Tape 3953 PK - 1 MR. TOBIN: How are things in Terra Nova? Were you pleased with the outcome? MR. NEARY: been swept under the rug. MR. TOBIN: was he? MR. NEARY: So, Mr. Speaker, the matter has 'Garfield' was not out there, Ignorance is not something that we treat very lightly in this House. MR. TOBIN: In that case you would not be allowed in here. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKERiAylward) : MR. NEARY: MR. HODDER: MR. NEARY: Could I have silence, Mr. Speaker. Order, please! Thank you, Your Honour. He sounds like a fishwife. So, Mr.

Speaker, the report enraged the Ombudsman to the extent that he had to write a special report for this House. Now, _i ~ the Premier and the ministers and the administration there opposite think that the Ombudsman was wrong, let them stand in this House man fashion, never mind sniping across the floor of the House, and say the Ombudsman, who did a very thorough investigation into this case, who took evidence, probably some of it under Oath, who has a very comprehensive file on that appointment - MR. TOBIN: But what did the minister do wrong? MR.

NEARY: - let the minister bring the Ombudsman before the House of Assembly, before the Bar of the House-MR. MORGAN: who was qualified for the job. MR. TOBIN: jobs? I got a PC supporter a job, Are voters not supposed.to get 8773

December 13, 1983 Tape 3953 PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please! MR. NEARY: Could we have a little order, Mr. Speaker. MR. HODDER: The other fellow was far more qualified, number one, according to the Civil Service Commission, and you know it. MR. MORGAN: Who,your Liberal buddy in Stephenville? MR. HODDER: No. He was not a Liberal any more than the other guy was. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MORGAN: Not any more you mean. MR. HODDER: Not any more? He was not qualified. PR. 8PTAKER (Avh?ard) : Order, please! Order, please! I would ask both hon. members not to carry on ·a conversation across the House.

And I would remind all hon. members that the Leader qL the Opposition (Mr. Neary) has the right to be heard in silence. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. So, Mr. Speaker, I am using that case because I believe that is only the tip of the iceberg, of what is happening to the Public Service Commission. MR. TOBIN: Tell us how you hired them. Tell us how you hired your crowd? MR. NEARY: I believe Your Honour asked for silence in the House. MR. SPEAKER:_ Order, please! !om. NEARY: ~fr.

Speaker, so I am only ~sing that as an example of what people suspect is happening ~o the Public Service Commission, that they are being overruled ~y ministers, by the administration there opposite. And we ~an see, we can tell, Mr. Speaker, from the complaints that we Q iiI u i : ~

December 13, 1983 Tape 3953 PK - 3 MR. NEARY: get from the people that we talk to that this administration is probably the worst in our whole history when it comes to political patronage and political appointments. MR. HODDER: The Minister of Fisheries (Mr . Morgan) is the worst offender . M.R. NEARY: We have an example , You could not get a more classic example, I suppose, than the Ombudsman being forced to write a special report for the House for all members to see with their own eyes, 877 5

December 13, 19B3 Tape No. 3954 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: read with their own eyes. And their reaction to it is that the Ombudsman was wrong. We saw the documentation, we read it. In an y court of law the administration ~.rould be convicted. But, ~.r. Speaker, because they have a majority of forty-five over on that side, and seven on this side, and they sweep things under the rug and they ignore special reports from the Ombudsman, that does not make it right. If the han. gentleman thinks the Ombudsman was wrong then let him stand in the House - DR. COLLINS: MR. TOBIN: DR. COLLINS: MR. NEAR.Y: MR.

SPEAKER (l\yhlarC.l : And what about the Hifflin Report? ~That was that about? Social Services on Bell Island. !1r. Speaker, could we have silence. Order, pleasel MR. NE..lh-qy : Mr. Speaker, if the hon. gentleman thinks the Ombudsman was wrong let him stand in the House and tell the House why he thinks the Ombudsman was wrong, where he went wrong. MR. !·!ORGAN: Two years aqo the issue was . Read Hansard for that time and see what I said then . He w~s wrong. MR. NEA...~Y: No, all we heard at that time was abuse directed towards the Ombudsman. -MR. MORGAN: relevant to this bill nm.r. MR.

NEARY: That was two years ago, it is not Yes, it is. So, Mr. Speaker, we think that was only the tip of the iceberg and we would like for the Hinister of Puolic Works and Services (~..r. Young-l to - MR. CALLAN: ~-m. NEARY: (Inaudible). Well, I know he is not going to get up and admit what we are accusing the administration of, he is not going to admit it. He will try to bluff his way out of it. But ~.re know it is going on, _Mr. Speaker. T'7e know 8776

December 13, 1983 Tape No. 3954 SD - 2 M...'t. NEARY : today in Newfoundland that if you do not have the ri~ht political stripe, Mr. Speaker, you are doomed as far as getting a job in the public service is concerned. HR. MORGAN: (Inaudible) are all gone now. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the expert is the minister himself. If you are not from certain districts, not of a certain political stripe, Mr. Speaker, you do not have a chance. And that is unfortunate and tragic. We have really come to something in this ~rovince now where you almost have to show your PC membership card to get on the government payroll.

You almost have to show your membership card, Mr. Speaker. MR. TOBIN: '1ne time you had to shm.,r your Liberal membership card to get building materials for your home. !IIIR. NEARY: You almost have to show your membership card in the Tory Party to get a job in tihe public I service. I have calls and letters, I have testimony from people all over this Province whose sons and daughters have gone to the vocational schools, have gone to the university, have applied for jobs in the public service, that were advertised or put on the bulletin board and, ~1r, Speaker, the jobs were filled before they applied, 8777

December 13, 1983 Tape No. 3955 MJ - 1 MR. NEARY: or they did not have a chance even though they had the qualifications, .?robably more qualifications than the successful applicants, they had all the qualifications necessary, bright young Newfoundlanders who were told, we are sorry but there is no job for you, because somebody supported the administration. That is actually happening in this Province today. ~~~ .. C.!l-J.JLl\Y: MR. NEARY: it very hard to believe. l1R. CALL1'-'J : MR. NEARY: That is hard to believe. Well, you should not find Look at their faces over there.

Yes, look at their faces,they are all angels over there. ':'heir halos are hurting them., T~ey will get up and tell us, 'Oh, we are an administration of integrity and honesty', and they expect everyone out there to believe it. I think sometimes they even believe it themselves. Mr. Speaker, it is shameful the way young Newfoundlanders who are applying for jobs in the Public Service, it is shameful the way they are being treated.

They did what they were tal~; they have attended university, they have gone to the College of Trades and Technology,or the College of Fisheries,or the vocational schools, they got their education, they have got their certificates, and they are about to enter into the work­ a-day world when they run right smack up against politics. The Minister of Public Works and Services (Mr. Young) thinks that they are not of the right political persuasion so no job. That han. gentleman is the expert. !·lher it comes to political appointments, he wrote the book. Mr.

Speaker, this administration is "toTOrse for political appointments and political patroriage than the Duplessis years in the Province of Quebec,and everyone knows how corrupt the ~lessis administration was in the Province of Quebec. 8778

December 13, 1983 Tape No. 3955 MJ - 2 MR. TOBIN: I bet you caP~at n~e a nozen people ~·1ho got jobs through :'"'Olitical -r-atrona.CTe. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, they would love for us to drop names on the table of the House so they could go out and retaliate against these people for giving us information. One thing that I have done since I have been a member of this House, and that is why I get so much information directed my way, I have never divUlged my source of information and I never will. And awful lot of people say to me, 'Why do you not write a book?

You must be in possession of a wealth of information.' And I am, Mr. Speaker. When I leave this House, when I leave public life, which may be ten or fifteen or twenty years from now, I never want to put a pencil to paper again. ~ut as long as I am here and I have the health and strengt~, an~ as long as there is an ounce of energy in my body, Mr. Speaker, I intend to fight social injustice and discrimination. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: '!hen are vou going to the Senate? Oh, Mr. Speaker, they would love to be able to get rid of me. MR. SIMMS: Oh, no we would not.

You would -nake a ~reat contribution if ''OU ~-rould run for leadership. MR. TOBIN: Are you running for the leadership? MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, as long as I have an ounce of energy I will fight these social injustices - MR. TOBIN: MR. NEARY: When are you going to start? - and discrimination against people who they are think of the opposite political stripe. Sometimes they do not even know •. ~hey do not care, as long as you have your Tory membership card or you ~un~orted this candidate or this minister. That is all they care. They are ruthless, absolutely ruthless. MR. TOBIN: That is not true. 8779

December 13, 1983 Tape No. 3955 1-4.J - 3 MR. NEARY : It is true. Ask the 11Jinister of Public Works and Services (Mr . Young), he is the expert on it. There has been more interference with the Public Service Commission in recent years, Mr. Speaker, than ever in our whole history. MR . TOBIN: Why way did you hire when you were Minister of Social Services? f.1R . NEARY: And now they have a ne,., technique. Their technique now is,if cannot ram it through the Public Service, Mr. Speaker, if it looks too obvious and it might hit the headlines - MR . TOBIN: Jid you hire (inaudible)? MR . NEARY : Mr .

Speaker, could we have silence,please .? Could you ask the hon. gentleman to restrain himself, pleasel MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please! Order, please! MR . NEARY: If it is too obvious and they think the public may hea .r about it, it may hit the headlines - 8780

December 13, 1983 Tape 3956 EC - 1 ~~"R. • fl IH?1S : Put them on contract. MR. NEARY: Put them on contract, that is right. MR. SIMMS: You said that yesterday. MR. NEARY: Yes, and I will say it tomorrow and next week. It may get boring for the han. gentleman but it is not boring for the people out there who have sons and daughters sitting home today who should be working. !'1_'1. SI!!.'~S: The media people are all gone, boy. MR. NEARY: Do not worry, they are listening. MR. SIMMS: No, they are not. If they are not, the Speaker is listenin~. MR.

NEARY: They are gone in to read the Auditor General's report to find out about that ferry down in Springdale. MR. SIMMS: What ferry? MR. NEARY: The one the taxpayers paid for. l~'R.. SI!~~S: Withj.J;m ·!! Hi thc .ra:<.·:! MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, t):le han. gentlemen over there may think it is a big joke, they may think it is funny, but when you travel around this Province and you go to the ho~e of a person whom you have never met before in your life and you meet a young lady with a degree or a son with a business administration course and they say, 'Look, he has applied for several jobs in the public service, went in for the interviews, we paid his way in to St.

John's for his interviews • 3 ut do you knou \":'ho r;ot t~1e j oh? ' they ~~11 say to you - 'So-and-So, because he campaigned for the ~ni .ster, that is who got the job! ' - -or 'So-and-So, because he is a fork relation of somebody on the government side of the House!' Mr. Speaker, that is what they tell you. rn. ~!~!t!S_:_ "{ou CC\~ count t:iH•r .·. on one hand. l1R. YOUNG: Tell us about the bridge in Codroy. 8781

December 13, 1983 Tape 3956 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: Yes, if we ever saw a fib and a farce, we saw it with the opening of the bridge down in Codroy the other day. ~-'.~. SIHl!S: No ~·mv! "'To ""·ay! SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER {Aylward): Order, please! Order, please! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the Government of Canada contributed $3.6 million, the Province $800,000 and they hailed it as a great provincial project. And they allowed the federal MP to hold the ribbon on one end and the hon. gentleman on the other end after the Government of Canada contributed $3.6 million to that project. .what a bluff!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. NEARY: What a bluff! And the Premier cuts the ribbon and never even acknowledged that Ottawa put $3.6 million into that project. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! I wish to remind the hon. the Leader of the Opposition nf the rule of relevancy. again. I do not see Hhat the bridqe in the ('~.roy Vallev hac; to Clo with the Public Service Commission, Bill No. 21. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, sometimes when you get baited by the other side, when you have these distractions and interruptions, one cannot help getting carried away. And the hon. gentleman just reminded me of that gigantic bluff that they ran the other day down in the Codroy Valley. 8 "7R'1 I U L

December 13, 1983 Tape 3956 EC - 3 .''1?. • DA!IT: : Your colleaque, the MP. did not even know what bridge was there three years ago. MR. NEARY: The MP invited me up for the opening and I said I would go if Ottawa got the recognition that it deserved for putting $3.6 million into it and Ottawa certainly did not. M!{. DAWE: (Inaudible) aclmowledgernent of it. MR. NEARY: Well, my colleague from Ottawa was there too. MR. SIMMS: And they let Roger Simmons cut the ribbon? MR. NEARY: They let him hold the ribbon, let him hold it! That is an expensive ribbon, $3.6 million from the Government of Canada! ~:It.

DAI·~E : He did not ha'!'=' anything to do with it. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please! Order, please! MR. NEARY: Anyway, Mr. Speaker, they are trying to deliberately sidetrack I!le. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! May I interrupt the han. the Leader of the Opposition for one ~inute? It gives me great pleasure to . . welcome to our galleries, Torn Best and the members of the Petty Harbour Fishermen's Association. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I am glad that the members of the Petty Harbour Fishermen's Association are here today to hear what I have to say. HR. DAm~~ You are a lot gladder than they are! . r~:a. ~1~~!: r:: you are not ":}'IP. scm n-F: "' la~·'Yer or the son of a doctor you do not have much chance with that administration. 8783

December 13, 1983, Tape 3957, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: If you are the son of a miner, or a fisherman, or a logger, Mr. Speaker, you do not have much of a chance, because they are handing out their jobs along partisan political lines. MR. TOBIN: Name some jobs. Name some. Have some s6urce. Name some jobs. ~t the jobs. Tell us. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the han. gentlemen would love to have names. They would love to have them so they could go out and mow them down. Because that is what they would do.

And I am not talking about the kinds of jobs that was given to the former member for Gander, who . is the handshaker in this Province. We are the only Province in Canada that has an official handshaker, a hand greeter. MR. TOBIN: MR. NEARY: That is not true. That is true. Mr~ Speaker, we have a gentleman who sat in this House for six or seven years - MR. SIMM S: A fine gentleman. MR. NEARY: - and a fine gentleman,who was given an appointment by the administration. And what does Your Honour think the appointment involves? MR. SIMMS: Official greeter. MR. NEARY: Official greeter, shaking hands with people.

For that he makes $30,000 or $35,000 a year plus expenses. An official handshaker, the only Province in Canada that has one. protocol officer. MR. SIMMS: small staff. MR . NEARY: MR. SIMMS: have twenty or thirty .' In addition to .that we have a Yes, that is all we have . A A small staff. In every other province they 8784

December 13, 1983, Tape 3957, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, twenty or thirty handshakers in the other provinces? MR. SIMMS: Yes. MR. NEARY: We are the only Province in Canada which has an official handshaker. MR. SIMMS: protocol? MR. DAWE: Nova Scotia, too, I understand. MR. NEARY: You do not agree with There is a nice one in I am not talking about these kinds of appointments, by the way, these are political appointments, these are outside the ones I am talking about. I am talking about appointments that fall under the ambit of the Public Service Commission.

I•IR. s Ia.:>ts : We cannot get any jobs there. We cannot get any jobs there. You know better than that. MR. TOBIN: get one. MR. NEARY: me straight in the eye - MR. SIMMS: MR. NEARY: MR. SIMMS: I wish I had to know how to Can the hon. gentleman look Yes. Yes I can. - and say that, Mr. Speaker? Yes. MR. NEARY: Well, the han. gentleman should talk to some of his other colleagues. The hon. gentleman should take a look around and look at some of his other colleagues. MR. YOUNG: 'Forty-five from Carbonear'. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: All forty-fiv~ of us, boy. Hear, hear! So, Mr.

Speaker, the number of jobs, the number of ~lassifications that have been established outside the Public Service has increased tremendously in the last several years. The number of people on contract increased tremendously, a way to get around the 8785

December 13, 1983, Tape 3957, Page 3 --apb MR. NEARY: Public Service Commission. The number of political appointments have increased _drastically in this Province. Today, if you faix in business, you do not pay your social security tax, you are no good to anybody else, you ca.n get appointed to Newfoundland Hydro. That is the new Newfoundland Senate. They ta.lk about the Senate over there, we have ou:rr own Senate here in Newfoundland, we have Newfoundland Hydro. 8786

December 13, 1983 Tape No. 3958 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: You get an appointment for life to Newfoundland Hydro if you cannot do anything else. Mr. Speaker, when are we going to get back to fair play in this Province? When are we going to get back to the kind of atmosphere where a man is judged on the basis of his qualifications and not his politics? MR. TOBIN: That is not how you did it. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, when are we going to get back to that day when a man will be able to apply for a job and know he is going to get a fair shake. MR. SIMMS: The fishermen from Petty Harbour are leaving, they cannot stand it. MR.

NEARY: No, do not worry, the fishermen from Petty Harbour know what I am talking about. 't'Jhen will the son or a daughter of a fisherman or a miner or a logger or a paper maker or a machinist or a truck driver, when will they be able to apply for a job and say, "I think I got a fair chance to get that job because I have the qualifications," and not be discriminiated against by somebody there opposite, that nobody will run interference on behalf of one of their -- - . ~ supporters, the Minister of Public Nork.s and Services (Mr.

Young) will not have a quarterback taking the ball and running with it to the Public Service Commission and saying, "Hold it now, hold it, look, you know,the minister would like this particular person to be number one on the list, he would like that particular person to be number one?" MR. SIMMS: It cannot be done, Sir. It cannot be done. 8787

November 13, 1983 Tape No. 3958 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: It could not be done with the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) but it was done. MR. SIMMS: One example. MR. NEARY: Oh, one example, one example that brouqht on a special report from the Ombudsman. MR. SIMMS: Why was that? It brought on a report from the Ombudsman because the gentleman who did not get the job co~plained to him about it. MR. NEARY: The Ombudsman was so enraged about the way it was handled by the gentlemen there opposite that he wrote a special report condemning the administration. MR.

SIMMS: How can that one example lead you to say that that is what is done universally, everywhere in the Public Service Commission? Baloney _and rhetoric, that is all you know, Sir. Be fair with the people now. MR. TOBIN: He can say it, because that is what he did. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, we are raising these matters because of the complaints that we get. MR. TOBIN: Okay, tell us how you appointed your friends in Social Services. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! MR. NEARY: Surely, Mr,. Speaker, this House does not have to put up with the ignorance of the rules by the hon. gentleman.

We do not have to put up with that. MR. TOBIN: Just tell us how you appointed your management people in Social Services? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my suggestion to any hon. gentlemen there opposite who do~not agree with what I am saying is that this is a debating forum and hon. gentlemen have the same privilege that I have, they can stand and debate, 8788

November 13, 1983 Tape No. 3958 NM - 3 MR. NEARY: they can rebut what I am saying, they can argue against it. But; . Mr. Speaker, the trouble is that they are on the shift system over there. The Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) has sent the 'imrd out, "Boys, keep quiet, we have to get the House closed." SOME HON. MEMBERS: No, Sir! No, Sir! MR. NEARY: "We have twenty-odd pieces of legislation on the Order Paper and we will never get it done if everybody gets up and speaks". But, Mr. Speaker, what I say to hon. ~entlemen there ·opposite - MR.

TOBIN: As a matter of fact the (inaudible) shift starts again next Thursday. MR. HODDER: If you have anything to say, say it. MR. SPEAKER ~cNi c hol as): Order, please! Order, please! SOME HON. M.EMBBRS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! The hon. member has asked on a number of occasions for silence when he is speaking and I would ask all hon. members to honour that request. MR. HODDER: I will take you on day for day in this House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Oh, oh! Thank you, Mr. Speaker, for protecting me. Order, please! Mr.

Speaker, I would suggest if the member for Burin-Placentia West (Mr. Tobin) keeps it up Your Honour has no choice but to name him. You can only carry on as if you were in a bar or in a tavern somewhere for so long, then Your Honour has to brinq the hon. gentleman to task. MR. TOBIN: Tell us about The Bright Spot. 8789

November 13, 1983 Ta pe No. 3958 NM - 4 MR. NEARY : If th e han . ge ntlem en t here opposite disagree with what I am saying about this bill, about by~passing the Public Service Commission, about bullying, pushing and shoving the Public Service Commission, i.f they disagree with me let them stand and say so. That is all they have to do, Mr. Speaker.

But I have the right and the privilege to stand here and say what I think and what I know from experience, and what I know frorp. letters and corre .spondence and meetings that I have had with parents and with individuals who applied for jobs in the Public Service in this Province. ~- DOYLE: That is why we have the Public Service Commission as opposed to - MR. NEARY: My suggestion to the han. gentleman is to advise his colleagues to leave the Public Service · Commission alone. 8790

.. December 13, 1983 Tape No. 3959 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: As far as I am concerned, Mr. Speaker, there should not be one appointment made without being processed through the Public Service Commission, not one. MR. SIMMS: MR. NEARY: Ninety-nine point nine of them are. Oh, 99.9 are. I had another example the other day where the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) interferred with the Workers' Compensation Board, picked up his phone, ~alled the Chairman of the Workers' Compensation Board, said I have a friend - MR. WALSH: You have no proof of that. HR. NEARY: Well, I had the letter there the other day.

I do not know if I still have it. Look, there it is - 'As per our telephone conversation of Thursday the 11th March.l982, I am enclosing a resume of Mr. So-and-So'. MR. WALSH: Big deal. MR. NEARY: Yes, it is a big deal. The problem is that we do not know what "happened in that telephone conversation. MR. DOYLE: Oh, now, the minister made representation on behalf of a constituent. MR. NEARY: I see. And it is just merely a coincidence that the fellow he telephoned about and then wrote the letter about and sent the resume got a job on a contractual basis bypassing the precedure of the Workers' Compensation Board.

That was all merely a coincident, Mr. Speaker. How many examples do they want? We are not going to trot out the names of everybody who complained about being discrLminated against, or they feel they have been discriminated against by the administration, by the Public Service Commission. We are not going to trot them out because of reprisals and retaliations against these people. So, Mr. Speaker, we hope that the minister now who is here today, will be able to give us a bit of background on why it was necessary to make the 8791

December 13, 1983 MR. NEARY: in this bill. AN HON. MEMBER: Tape No. 3959 so - 2 change that is being recommended (Inaudible) MR. NEARY: He can take as long as he wants, we are going to be here until Christmas Eve anyway. And tell us when the appointments were made, how they were made to the Public Service Commission, and how long these people are appointed for? Now, Mr. Speaker, hon. gentlmen may not like it, and ladies may not like it there opposite, they do not like the truth, they do not like to be criticized. MR. DOYLE: Go back to the (inaudible) MR.

NEARY: The hon. gentleman should go and meet and talk about his ferry on Bell Island that the y are calling me about, for the last few weeks. MR. DAWE: Yes, I am sure they are. And he has increased the double boats from ·five weeks to five months since he has been a member. MR. NEARY: $3.6 million to $800,000 and the member of Parliament gets to hold the ribbon. MR. DAWE: That is about as much effort as the member of Parliament put into it. MR.

NEARY: I remember when the federal MP was here with a cheque in his pocket for $1.8 million and the hon. gentleman would not go down to the telephone building to collect it, he sent down his deputy minister. MR. DAWE: That is the part that was worth holding on to the ribbon. MR. NEARY: Oh, yes. Well, there is still $1.8 million owing and, I guarantee you, if I was in the MP's place they would sweat for it. They would sweat, if I had anything to do with it. 8792

December 13, 1983 Tape No . 3959 SD - 3 MR. DAWE : It is a legislative progra~~e and he has nothing to do with it . MR. NEARY: So, Mr. Speaker, I think I have exhausted now just about everything I could say abo ut this b i ll . I look fon~ard to the response from the hon. gentleman. 8793

December 13, 1983 Tape 3960 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: I do not expect the han. gentleman to get up and admit that the things are happening that I accused the administration of, but I would ·like to get some kind of an explanation from the hon. gentleman, Mr. Speaker. And we would like to know the reason we are being forced here, just about a week or ten days before Christmas, to debate a bill to change the qualifications of members of the Public Service Commission. Mr. Speaker, at least we are entitled to an explanation as to why we are being asked to do that just a few days before Christmas. SOME HON .

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): closes the debate. If the minister speaks now he The han. Minister of Public Works. MR. YOUNG : Mr. Speaker, first I want to thank the House Leader (Mr. Marshall) for introducing the bill in his excellent way yesterday, learned gentleman that he is . Mr. Speaker, I was unfortunately absent, Sir, I had to attend a function in my district. I have about seven this week. I hope it is not a conflict of interest, but the people are dying to see me in my district, not like the han. member, they do not even want to hear tell of him. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the hon . member gets up and he shakes this little bill which could have taken five minutes yesterday afternoon, "This is a priority of government." Who has been speaking for almost an hour on this, Mr. Speaker? Who has been delaying the closing of the House or whatever business we want to go on with - we haye other important bills on the Order Paper - other than the hon. ~e~her? MR. MARSHALL: Right on. MR. YOUNG : Now, Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this bill: The former Chairman had fourteen years altogether in the civil service, but his time while he was Chairman of 8794

December 13, 1983 Tape 3960 PK - 2 MR. YOUNG: Public Service Commission was not recognized. This is what we want to do, Mr. Speaker. And I would like to ask the han. member about the jobs he is talking about. Look, one thing we are proud of is that the police, the firemen, and the wardens go through the Public Service Commission now. That is a great step forward. But what happens, Mr. Speaker, when you get 400 applications for thirty-five jobs? Someone has to be disappointed. I would ask the hen. member to name one person who applied and was bullied, as he says himself, by any member on this side of the House.

MR. DINN: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. YOUNG: Name one! Hear, hear! Name .one! And I will also ask him to come down and meet with the Chairman of the Public Service Commission, I will meet with the Commission itself, the full Commission and see if anyone bullied anyone in the Public Service Commission, as he stated? SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. YOUNG: Now, Mr. Speaker, we do not intend to bully the Opposition. If they are making fools of themselves, like Mr. Parsons said in The Evening Telegram sometime last week, that is not our fault. MR. MARSHALL: MR. YOUNG: He was saying The Daily News. He said The Daily News.

The Evening Telegram was it? In The Evening Telegram he said, with the questions they are asking they are making fools of themselves. Now, Mr. Speaker, the jobs he is talking about over in my district: Mr. Speaker, if my constituents are qualified, smart, with high I.Qs and so forth, and well represented get jobs, that is not my fault, Mr. 8795

December 13, 1983 Tape 3960 P.K - 3 MR. YOUNG: Speaker, that they qualified and got these jobs. Sir, he asked who the Chairman of the Public Service Commission· was? MR. MARSHALL: Did he actuaily ask that? MR'. YOUNG: He actually asked that and why were they appointed and all of that? Now,it is Mr. Peter Withers who was a civil servant all his life , Mr. Speaker, he was deputy minister ,of Municipal Affairs and Housing. He is also Chairman of the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation. Now, Mr. Speaker, is he not qualified for the position? ( We have Mr.

Vince Rossister of the Commission, he had experience in personnel and he worked.in the 1950s with the U.S. Oepartment of Defen.ce. fie is a Viqe-Cb.g.:i,_pnart. We have anothe ,r gentleman 1 Mr. Doug Whitten,who is a career civil servant,and was Administrator with 1:lhe Department of Health- His appointment was made in 1981. 5796

December 13, 1983 Tape No. 3961 MJ - 1 l~!'.. YOT.::Tr-: !'.r. ~neaker, these neonle are annointed at t~e pleasure of the Lieutenant-Governor in Council. ~here is no skulduggery going on. As I said before,if the hon. member savs ~e got letters, he has not got a letter, Mr. Speaker. He might have cut a letter or two out of The Evening Telegram or The Daily News and that is about all he got over there to put his hopes and his complaints on. Mr. Speaker, I have much pleasure in moving second reading.

I •.roul.-1 also sav that t!"le other in"'or.:"' ,co.tion ~e .-.?.s lookin(T for, when we table the Report of the Public Service Commission all the information will be in it. Thank you, Sir. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Newfoundland Public Service Commission Act, 1973," rE!ad a second time, ordered refe.rred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. (.Bill No. 21) • ~~otion, seconr1 readiniJ" of a bill, ;;Ari. Act To Amend The Fishing Ships (Bounties) Act." (Bill No. 8) . MR. MORG/>.N: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas) : The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR.

MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to present this bill to the House for second reading. It is a bill dealing with fishermen's bounties. Under the financial assistance we provide to fishermen there is a grant system we call bounties,paid to fishermen,to help offset the cost of their boats,and these bounties are paid only after a five year period. For exarnple,one fisheman can only receive one bounty within a five year period or the five year age of 8797

December 13, 1983 Tape No. 3961 l-1J - 2 MR. MORGAN: his boat.

What this bill is doing is amending that legislation to enable more than one bounty or grant to be paid to fishermen under special circumstances, . ~hese special circumstances will be that if a fisherman,for example, loses his vessel by means of a storm or by fire,or for any reason the vessel is lost or damaged to an extent that it cannot be used any longer in the fishing industry, or in t.'1e fis'1.er•, then we felt it is quite un£air to that fishelr.Eil tl1A.t he ~·JOule\ not r;uali:Fv to receiv~ a~~, tc '1.eln ~i~ replace that vessel he lost in a storm or in so!".e other accir'lent. -This ·amendment is merely for that purpose 1 being able to h~ve fishermen qualify twice within the five year period to offset circumstances beyond their control.

MR. NEARY: · Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas) : The han. the Leader of the Opposition. 'MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, that was a very brief report given by the hon. gentleman. I have a couple of questions that I would like to ask about bounties. Could the han. gentleman tell the House now what bounties boat owners can qualify for? There have been an awful lot of changes made in recent years as far as bounties for gear and boats are concerned, Mr. Speaker. It is a job to keep up to what is available.

Could the hon. gentleman when he is closing second reading on this bill give us a run-down on the kinds of bounties that are available now to fishermen who want to build boats,and the bounties that are available for various sizes of boats. Could the han. gentleMan also tell the House, I presume it is through the Fisheries ~ann Board that these applications have to made? Is that correct? MR. MORGAN: Yes. 8798

December 13, 1983 Tape No. 3961 MJ- 3 MR . NEARY: Through the Fisheries Loan Board. Now, Mr. Speaker, hon. mel!lbers will recall a couple of years . ago the minister changed the ":'isheries Loan Board and forced the fishermen in this Province to apply to the banks for loans. I believe it is about time we had a comprehens~ve report on how that system is working. It seems to me that there is an awful lot of complaints and condemnation of the administration for- . ~o!c;i.ng fishermen to go to talk to !:lank managers about applying for loans, and about getting loans and so forth and so on.

The fishermen of this Province were not used to that and they do not like it. They prefer to deal with their: elected representatives,. 8799

December 13, 1983 Tape No. 3962 IB-1 MR. NEARY: but the minister and the administration forced them to go to bank managers, and they are not at all happy about it. I would .like to ask the minister if there is any intention on the part of the administration to revert back to the original procedure and have the fishermen make their applications directly to the department and have them processed by the Fisheries Loan Board and not have to go to bank managers who sometimes can be very cold and calculated in their decisions.

There has been an awful lot of inconvenience and an awful lot of hardship created for fishermen in this Province as a result of the new procedure that was adopted by the administration there a co~ple of years ago. I believe the minister now should,when he is closing second reading of this debate, tell the House whether there have been complaints !ind how .the Fishe~en's Union feel about the new system. Were they happier with the old system?

I believe fishermen all over the Province have told me, and I am sure they have told other members of the House, how much they hate going down and sitting in a bank manager:' s office to make an application for a loan to build a boat or to buy gear. They feel that they are being- I do not suppose it is right to say ill-treated by the bank managers, that is not the right phrase I am looking for 1 but they feel that they are being treated in a cold and sort of hard- hearted way. And the administration have managed to successf~lly ~hrug off their responsibilities to the bank.

I would like for the minister to indicate where we stand now,at this point in time, regarding the Fisheries Ioan Board: Does the administration intend to revert back to the original system or are they still going to force fishermen to go to the banks when they need loans? 8800

oecember 13, 1983 Tape No. 3962 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the amendment itself is a good one,as far as making it possible for fishermen to get more than one bounty IB-2 in a five year period. I think it is worthwhile because I know of a couple of instances myself where fishermen's boats went aground, were damaged beyond repair or were burned. There were a couple in my own district that got burned. I am not sure if they would qualify under this new amendment. _But certainly if the boat had been a new boat,a couple or three years old, Mr.

Speaker, when she caught fire and burned, ~hen the fisherman would stand to lose everything, he would not be entitled to a second bounty in a five year period. He would have to wait until the five years ran out before he would be entitled to another bounty. So, that amendment, I would say., is a-fairly good one.

But I would like for the minister in second reading to give us a much broader outline of how the new system is working, what kind of complaints they are getting about it, if it is the intention of the administration to accept their responsibility and not ~o brush ·off their responsibility ante the bank managers, that these matters 8801

December 13, 1983 Tape 3963 EC ~ 1 MR. NEARY: should be rightly dealt with by the elected representatives of the people. They have managed to duck out from under, Mr. Speaker. -They have weaseled their way out. At least the fisherman can come and talk to his member,or he can argue with the Fisheries Loan Board,or he can argue with the ministry,but he has not got a chance with a bank manager, just hard, cold facts and figures and that is it. Now, maybe that is the way the administration want it. I-!aybe they ~-?ant to treat people in a cold and callous way.

Maybe that is the way they want it, because they have a reputation, Mr. Speaker, and I think rightly so, that they have no feeling for people. The Liberal Party has a long-standing tradition and record of being a party of the people, of having feelings for the people. One of the big problems with this administration is that they have no regard or no feelings for people and they proved that when they tossed the responsibility for fisher­ men's loans over to bank managers, another illustration of the lack of regard that they have for the people of this Province.

Our primary producers, the people who generate new dollars, who create the jobs in this Province - t:1e orimary producer, the fisherman, will come to his elected representative looking for assistance and he is told, 'Boy, look, go down to the bank.

You go down to the bank and if you can negotiate with the bank, then we will pay so much of your interest.' And the poor fellow goes off to the bank and when he leaves the bank manager's office - uith all due respect to bank managers - he comes out completely frustrated, a lot of the fishermen, completely frustrated, do not know if they are going to get their loans or not. Some of them have lost good 8802

December 13, 1983 Tape 3963 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: deals, Mr. Speaker, because they have not been able to get their loans processed. An awful lot of them that I have talked to have nothin~ ~ut criticism and strong condemnation for the administration for the way that they have treated the fishermen of this Province. ~.ffi. fmRSHALL: I bet you do not fuel it. MR. NEARY: I do not fuel it? Mr. Speaker, I would listen to any citizen of this Province, whether he is a fisherman, whether he is a miner, whether he is a logger, whether he is a truck driver, an office worker or a retail clerk.

I just do not hobnob around with the clique. That is one of the problems about the ministers, they are living in a dream world, they are in their ivory tower and they do not hear, and most of the time they do not want to listen to what is being said or what is going on. I am sure the Minister of Eisheries (Mr.

Morgan) if he were to stand in this House and tell the truth about this situation, that he would have to adn!it that uhat I am sayin-:: ~s correct, that an awful lot of fishermen feel th~t they ·have been-cast aside by the ac~ _inistr a tion anQ that the administration abdicated its responsibility for dealing with these matters and threw it over on the bank managers. Now, as good as the bank managers are, and a lot of them are good common-sense people, f.ishe~en find it very hard, very difficult to negotiate loans with the banks. 8803

December 13, 1983 Tape No. 3964 IB-1 MR. NEARY: And so, Mr. Speaker, I hope that the hon. gentleman when he is speaking ,now on second reading, closing second reading on this bill to make what he calls a simple amendment,but a very important amendment, that he will give us a full and detailed and comprehensive report on how the Fisheries Loan Board has been functioning in the last couple of years,since they installed the new system of forcing fishermen to deal with the banks rather than deal with the administration and with the elected representatives of the people. MR.

SPEAKER (MCNICHOLAS) : If the minister speaks now he will close the debate. The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to see that the Opposition Leader (Mr. Neary), on behalf of his party, is supporting this amendment. It is indeed a good amendment for the fishermen who, as I mentioned, find themselves in difficulty, in most all cases circumstances beyond their control.

I would like to outline to the House of Assembly,and to those members who represent fishi~g areas in particular, that despite what the Opposition Leader has said the Loan Board Programme today that we have and are now administering through the Fisheries Loan Board,with the chairman reporting to me as minister, is the most beneficial programme anywhere in Atlantic Canada in any fishing part of Canada,including Br.itish Columbia. It is the best programme, it is touted as the best programme by fishermen themselves. It is recognized by the Fishermen's Union as the best programme in place anywhere,to the effect 6804

""- December 13, 1983 Tape No. 3964 IB-2 MR. MORGAN: where we have, for example, three union officials sitting on the board, making decisions, meeting sometimes on a weekly basis. At least every two weeks they meet,in most cases depending on the applications pending. I recall a few years ago when I became Minister of Fisheries there was an awful mess in the Fisheries Loan Board. There was no question about that. With all due respect to my predecessor, there was an awful mess left in the Fisheries Loan Board. In fact,I recall the board was bankrupt. There was no morale left among the employees of the board.

The fishermen had no confidence in the board. The board was in complete, total shambles. Well, this administration,under the issue of the Premier (Mr. Peckford) and the Cabinet,and with the guidance of Cabinet and myself as the minister reporting to Cabinet,we changed all that. We Ghanged the whole structure of the Loan Board. We brought in new employees in the Loan Board. We appointed new members to the Loan Board and we put in place, most important of all, brand new regulations governing eligibility criteria.

Those who could qualify to receive loans and grants from government had to meet certain criteria, and that criteria was worked out in conjunction with the Fishermen's Union, full discussion, full consultation. And only upon the approval of ··the Fishermen's Union that represents most of the fishermen in the Province,did we finalize the eligibility criteria for fishermen to get financial assistance. We put that programme in place back in 1980,and I became minister that year,and it is working quite well since that time.

In fact,I have nothing but sincere congratulations for those people who served on the board as fishermen. We have fishermen on the bOard, we have union employees on the board 8805

December 13, 1983 Tape No. 3965 IB-1 MR. MO RGAN: and, of course, government employees. In this case,people who are working with the board. Now, Mr. Speaker, it is important to understand that ·whatthe Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) has said has to be corrected, and that is that the fishermen are not complaining that they have to go to the bank, whether it be the Bank of Nova Scotia or the Bank of Commerce or the Bank of Montreal. Because when they go to sit down with a bank manager they are not negotiating a loan, they have to meet the criteria set by government under the regulations.

And if they meet the regulations,the bank manager can very seldom, in fact,I would venture to say,can never say no. He has ~to recommend that applicant to the Loan Board and say, 'Yes, he meets the eligibility requirements or criteria', and then he comes into the loan board for final approval. In fact,it is more convenient in many cases for the fisliermen to walk into a bank in ~the respective communities than to have to travel all the way to St. John's to sit down with the loan board.

Sure the respective members of the House of Assernbly,on both sides of the House often write on behalf of individual constituents. ' . fisherrnen,and rightly so, but they never interfere in the activities of the board. We have made it a policy that there be no political interference in the operation of the Fisheries Loan Board. I can say in all sincerity,in the last four years as minister there has never been a time when I told that board to overrule a decision they have made, te overrule it.

I have often asked them to review it again based on input from members of the House of Assembly, to review a decision they have made, to reconsider it, but I have never told them what to do 1 and rightly so. 8806

December 13, 1983 Tape No. 3965 MR. MORGAN: Now, the han. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) wants information on the bounties themselves, what kind of bounties, and a good question. I think it is important to understand what IB-2 we are talking about. A.fisherman.today in Newfoundland who meets the criteria will receive, for example, a thirty-five dollar per foot bountry on a· small vessel below thirt~-five feet, thirty-five dollars per foot on a vessel below thirty-five feet. He receives an eighty dollar per foot bounty if that vessel is partly decked.

He will receive a hundred dollars per foot bounty or grant if the vessel is fully decked,below thirty-five feet. Thenbeyond thirty-five feet which is fOC?St of the long liner fleet, Mr.Speaker. MR.MARSHALL: (Inaudible) .MR.IDRGAN: The hon.House reader (Mr .~1) is hurrying me to close the debate, but these are important points. ~use I know that within the confines of the House of Assembly, Mr. Speaker, ther~ are a number of fishermen, and when the Opposition scores points which are wrong or tries to scare pointsrwe have to correct them.

There are quite a nUmber of fishermen from Musgrave Harhnur within the confines of the Assembly right now waiting for a meeting with me. In fact a Musgrave Harbour delegation, ten or twelve people; a delegation from Petty Harbour, fishermen in my colleagues district. Now, the other bounty of $1,000 per ton is a very important bounty for fishermen­ $1,000 per ton is paid to fishermen who want to acquire a boat from thirty-five feet to sixty-five feet, the maximum size vessel they can have in this _ Pro~ince under the licensing system. And that bounty is indeed very important.

I, today, in a telephone conversation with the federal Minister of Fisheries, pleaded with him as I did last week in Ottawa, have your government in Ottawa reinstate the federal government's 8807

Decembe- 13, 1983 Tape No. 3965 IB-3 MR. MORGAN: subsidy, the grant from the federal government, ~o tie in with our grants we pay fishermen to help them recover the cost of replacing vessels. It is not a time to remove federal government subsidies. Although Michael Kirby says, 'Yes, remove them', in his recommendation in his ,report, it is not a time to remove subsides to the fishermen in this Province.

I am hoping the federal Cabinet will indeed approve between now and Christmas - I understand they are going to be dealing with .it next week - the application and the position taken by this government to reinstate the 25 per cent subsidy that was in place in 1982, was removed in 1983, I think primarily because of Mr. Kirby's efforts, to reinstate that 25 per cent federal government subsidy . It will help the fishermen substantially to tie into these bounties paid by us here under the Fisheries Loan Board programme and will help fishermen cover at least that part of the qost of replacing their vessels. MR.

NEARY: What is the policy. on buying boats outside the Province now? MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, our policy is a matter which has been discussed at some length with the Fishermen's Union, and I must say the Fishermen's Union is not in total agreement with it. 8808

!:i December 13, 1983 Tape No. 3966 NM - 1 MR. MORGAN: our policy today is that all new boats corning into the system to replace old boats must be built within the Province. We will not finance them if they are built in Nova Scotia, or built in Quebec, or built else­ where outside Newfoundland, the reason being it means employment in Newfoundland in the construction of the vessels. There have been some complaints that these vessels obtained outside the Province are less costly. That has never been proven, but there have been some complaints along that line. But in the meantime, Mr.

Speaker, we changed the regulations last year and made it a bit easier for fishermen whereb~ they can buy used vessels anywhere they want. They can go to Florida and buy them, they can go to Alabama - they have gone to Alabama and bought them, in fact - they can go to British Columbia and buy them and, if they are used vessels, we still finance them through our loan board system. Mr. Speaker, without taking up any more time of the House, I will say that the Fisheries Loan Board programme is now working the best it ever did in the Province.

The fishermen are pleased with it. we will accept any recommendations for change to bring further improvements. Whether they come from the Opposition, the Fishermen's Union or the fishermen themselves, we will indeed look at them if we can see further improvements possible. But, in the meantime, the loan board system is working quite well, but there is one real problem; there is little or no incentive from the federal level. There is a freeze on all new licences for new vessels and new boats, and there is no federal subsidy in place to help them offset the costs.

We feel these matters should be looked at by the federal government and then tie in with this kind of a programme, and it is all for the fishermen's benefit. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I move second reading. 8809

December ]3, ]983 Tape No. 3966 IB-2 On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Fishing Ships (Bounties) Act", read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee ' of the Whole House on tomorrow. (Bill No. 8) Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Status Of Women Advisory Council Act". (Bill No. 20) MR. SPEAKER (RUSSELL) : The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Premier (Mr. Peckford),who is engaged in public business downstairs,! have much pleasure in introducing this bill.

Itisa bill to amend the Status of Women Act and the principles of it are very simple. The Advisory Council is given the status of a corporation and its narre is to be the Provincial Advisory Council on the Status of Women in Newfoundland and Labrador. In the previous bill it had been provided that the administrative assistants to the advisory council would report it to the advisory council, to the Premier and to the Lieutenant­ Governor. The way the amendment is put there now the administrative assistants will report to the Advisory Council alone,which is the most appropriate way in which it is to be done.

Similarly there is an amendment to

section 14 (1) (c). At present this requires the Advisory Council to include in its annual report to the Premier a copy of the report on the Advisory Council by the Auditor General. This amendment w