Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st Session VERBATIM REPORT Monday, May 1, 1972 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL • ~ ... / Number 7

!'lay 1, 1972. Tape 154. :he House met at 3:00 P. M. Mr.Speaker jn the Chair. flON. F. .'."!OD RES (Premier) : Page 1. Mr. Speaker, I would like at this time to inform the llouse that the Ilona .rab] e Minister of Public Works and Iii gh~·ays is still i.11 and w"ll be convalescing for some time yet,unfortunatelv. Until such time as he is ready to come hack I wish to advise the Ilouse the honourable member for St. Barbe South will be acting "inister of Hjg,hwavs the Honourable Minister of Justice wi 11 be the acti.ng minister of Publ 1c Works. /llso, Hr.

Speaker, this morning I resi1med as r-iinister of Fisheries. 'Jhe new Minister of Fisheries who ,,,as sworn in nver the lunch hour i.s the member for Rermi.ta~e. NR. SPE:\KER: It is an houour for me to welcome ~o the galleries today fo " v-five Grade lX students from 'flooth V.emorial wfth their teacher ''elvin nrover. Also , fortv· Grade 7 students from rnited Junior ll1.p,h with their teacher Shirle •· Parsons. We trust that your visit here will be enjoyable and educatfonal and inform,~tive. Presenting Petitions: H"'J. T. CARTER (Min, of Education): '-!r.

Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf c-f the residents of Point Leamington, G~overs Harbour., Leading Tickles . ·,.outh and iYorth, requesting that the road from Northern Arm to Point Leamington be paved. Mr. Speaker, the J>rayer of the petition reads that the road from Northern Arm, Po '.nt Leamington be p .. -.-ed before the next election in 1971. J::irl.ier in the praver they wish that the road would be paved before 1966, so this is a very old petitjon that has been brought forward several times.

We humbly beg that this nromise be upheld that the ungrading of this road begin in the immediate future. This is one of the oldest roads in the Province and all merchandise , farm produce and lumber have to be transported over this road, for the towns of Point Leamington, Pleasantview, Glovers, Leading Tic.kles, N1rth and ·south• }'.r. Spe:2' .- er, I think that a J)eti.tion of this kind -! s very serious 416

l-!ay 1, 197:!. Tape 154. l>age 2. oarticularly when it gives evidence of oromises that have long since been made and ~ooarently disrega r ded. t~ere is no ~ues t ion 1n my mind that th1s particulnr

section of road needs some attention 1 would like to direct it to the department to which it relates. This is seconded by tl,e hon. memh2r for Hermita~e. Thank you. "IP • E. ROBERT!: : Mr. S:ieaker, If l could sav a 1o1ord in support of that l'etition. In so doinf?, perhaps I could in behalf of my colleagues '·ere conp.,ratulate the seconder of c_hat petition who is no longer merelv the honourable member for Hermitage but iR the ~in1ster of Fisheries i n addition ·to being the member for liermitage. Of course we want on this side Sir, to see the nrayer of this netition gran ted .

All the. more so, as, since my friend fr,,111 St. John's North has so eloquently r,ut it, a nparently this is a long-standin~ (auote) commitment (auote) that has not been honoured. If that :Is so , I would merelv caution the honou rable gentleman. 417

}fay l , 1972, Tape 155, Par;e 1 -- aph MR. ROBERTS, He will learn if he has not already that oft times a statement of intention becomes a promise, but whether 3 prom-l!"e or a commitment,obviously the people in this part of Newfoundland, represented I believe hy Your Honour :In the House,should have pavew.ent. I am all for that especially as this apparently goes back sone t:i.we. I express the hope and address it to the acting ~inister of Hfohways, the Hinister of La hour. that the work will begin this year.

I think that this is the very least that these people deserve and I hope that the press and the people in the House will carry it. ror our side, we ~lill be very disappointed, Pr. Speaker, if the ,;.•ark on this project does not begin this year. At the same time, of course, it relates to the causewav to Leading Tickles. He had a petition on that the other day and it too shou·ld be done. All this work should be done this year, Sir. I am sure that the temperament of the }'inister of Finance will encouraJ?e this and we on our part will encourage it as well. On Motion, petition received and adopted. Y-R. YOUNn: ~1r.

Sneaker, I would like to present a petition on behalf of seventy-eight residents of Spaniard's Bay. They pray, Sir, that the

section of road connecting with the paved road to Upper Isl?nd Cove and known as the Ridge Road, measuring approximately six-tenths of a miles in length and which is now not incorporated into the municipal boundary of Spaniard's Bay,be widened, rebuilt and upgraded without delay. They are more precise in the previous condition; they would like to see this clone before the end of September 1972. -~.:_~~RY_:_ Mr.

Speaker, it comes as a complete shock to this honourable Rouse to find out that there is a piece of road in Conception Bay, especially in the Spaniard's Bay Area, that is not paved, We are e<rnally surprised, Sir, to find out that there are seventy-eight residents not too far fro~ Spaniard's Bay without incorporation. I would say shame on the previous member, Sir, for leaving out this little piece of road that should have been paved when they were in this House 418

tlay 1, 1972, Tape 155, l'ai:ie 2 - apb of Assembly. T do hope, Sir, that the tenperamental Minister of Finance ·1d.ll he nble to find the money for the temporary ~•inist:er of Ui~hways to complete this little piece of road. I hoDe that it will be done duri~ the summer of 1972. On motion, petition received and a~opted. tT-- TH0}1S · ?Jr. Speaker, I heJ? leave to present a petition on bc11alf of tr.c residents of ~'iddle Brook North . The pravE>r of the petition is. ~1r.

SDeaker, thnt t:he Town of Middle Brook North be provided with a water and sewer system. />s the hon. $!entlemen here will note, Middle Brook North is now incorporated.under tile Local lmproveu.ent DJstrict of Dark Cove, ~iddle Brook ~nd Camba. ~•iddle Brook South, 'ttr. Speaker, is already suoplied "°1th a water and sewer system and it is the prayer of the residents of Middle Brook North that they also be ~iven this necessity . At the present tl.J!le, ~r. Speaker, we have some 220 voters in this area and they feel that they too are entitled to prouer vater and sew~r facilities. }'r .

Speaker, I ask that this peti t ion be r,laced on the table of this llouse and referred to the department to ~hich it relates. 419

May 1, 1972 Tape 156 On motion petition received. MOTIONS: MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I have a notice of motion which is not here yet if the House will consent to it being given later on,the Linerboard Mill. ORDERS OF THE DAY: ·---- MR. NEARY: ---- - Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Labour if he would iive the House a brief progress report on the steps that have been taken to rectify the safety hazards in the ERCO Phosphorous Plant and if he has any outstanding correspondence with the Union Steel Workers Local at Long Harbour that has not been answered yet? MR. MAYNARD: -·------- ---- Mr.

Speaker, I will accept the question as notice and provide the answer on tomorrow. MR...:....__¥..!..~~O~_ Mr. Speaker, I intended to direct this question to the Premier in his capacity as Minister of Fisheries but now we have a new Minister of Fisheries and may I be the first to congratulate him on that appointment.

Is the honourable minister in a position to tell us exactly what is d?inp. at Burgeo because there are some alarming reports coming out of Burgeo where the plant workers are working ttro or three days a .week, not making enough money to tide them over, unable to get relief and not qualifying for unemployment? What is the position there? HON. R.L. CHEESE~@'! (MINIS~R OF FISHERIES): Mr. Speaker, I will take the question as notice and supply my answer on tomorrow. MR . SPEAKER: Any other questions or answers to questions?

ORDERS OF THE DAY : Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Repeal The Pensions (Premiums) Act, 1966-1967. " MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this act is to repeal the 420 JM - 1

May 1. l972 Tape 156 MR. C.ROSBU:: act mentioned which was passed in 1966-1967 . The act that W'e ask the Rouse now to repeal was passed to make legal the deduction of pensions premiums from the salaries of employees of government pendinr. the draftinp. and ennctment of appropriate le!i!islation. The deduction of premiums is now covered under the Civil ~ervice Act, the Constabulary Act, the Public Service Pensions Act and therefore this niece of le21slation is no lon~er necessary. t therefore move second reading of the bill . MR:...!.(>_BgT~: Mr. Speaker. we will support it.

The minister has follv nnd adeouately e:<r,laincd a bill which is really a piece of housekeepin!i! le~islation . .TM - 2 On motion bill read a second time. ordered referred to a co.111r-1ittee of the whole !louse presently. by leave : 421

May 1, 1972 Tape 157 PK - 1 Motion, second reading of a bi.11, "An Act To Repeal The Contingencies Act." MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, this is

an Act to repeal the Contingencies Act which was passed many years ago. Apparently the Contingencies Act was desi~ned to provide such procedures for the purposes of control of the procurement of certain items of goods and services which were to be effective by the deputy ministers of various departments.

Ih the course of the evolution of procedures and control of procedur~s for this purpose under the last few years, say for the last twenty years, the functions required under this act have been incorporated into the form now for presentation of the estimates and jn the control of expenditures as exercised by the Treasury Jloard. Therefore this act has become obsolete and can no longer serve any useful purpose. We therefore now ask the House to repeal this legislation which is redundant and is no longer of any use. I move second reading of the bill. MR. ROBF.RTS: Mr. Speaker, we were prepared to be the last stand.

Yet the minister's eloquence swayed us and a~ a result we agree to consider it and we will support the bill at second reading stage. There may be a f ·ight in committee though, Sir, there are two clauses to this hill. On motion bill.read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently. Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Agreement Entered Tnto, Executed And Delivered In Pursuance Of And In The Form Set Forth In The

Schedule To The Government-Newfoundland Cement Company Limited And North Star Cement Limited (Authorization Of Agreement) Act, 1959, And To Make Certain Statutory Provisions Relating To That Agreement." 422

'·1:i.y l 1972 Tape 157 PK - 2 MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I move second reading of this amendment. The original legislation was en ~.ered into in 1959 and governs the agreement entered into between the government of that day and the North Star Cement Limited. The North Star Cement Limited is purchasing from the government the shares of 423

May 1, 1972 Tape No. 153 lj(: - 1 MR. CROSBIE: Newfoundland Cement Company Limited and in order to do this, they are required to pay out of profits each year, they are required to redeem so many voting preferred shares which are held by the government. I think the original agreement provided that one half of the profits, as defined in the original Act of those companies,be applied to redeem preferred shares held by the government.

Now the amendment that is before the House is at the request of the contracting company and if the amendment is passed it would provide that where they have in any particular year paid over more than they were required to do under the original agreement, they have redeemed more shares than they were required to, if there comes a year where they were not in a position to redeem the minimum number of shares that they be given a credit for redeeming more than the minimum number in eariier years and would be able to meet their obligation in that way.

This was agreed to by the previous administration and we see no reason to differ from it so that is what the amendment pertain to. As a matter of fact, the amendment that we now present to the House was approved by the previous government in 1970 by two Orders-in-Council, 159 and 159A. This North Star Cement amendment also has a further clause which ratifies a deferral of share redemptions in the amount of $66,400,' There was a year when they were unable to redeem these shares. It was in contravention of the agreement but the government overlooked it.

This amendment is to authorize the government's overlooking it in that particular case. Since that occurred some years ago, the amount has since been passed but the Legislature should approve it. Just some information the House might be interested in on North Start Cement, the total investment that the government has in North Star Cement as at December 31, 1970, is $3,161,600.and that was at the end of December 1970. So we still have involved in North Star Cement something less than that now but not much lessthan$3,161,600. The North Star Cement normally employs 100 people.

There is a slump in cement sales at the moment so the employment is temporarily down to 50. The 424

May 1, 1972 Tape No. 158 NC - 2 MR. CROSBIE: company expects that: they will be back up to their normal strength by the end of May. The House might be interested in their sales picture . I will_ just give the last three years . Tn 1969 they sold $2 , 354,000 worth of product. In 1970 they sold $3,619,000 worth of product. In 1971 they sold $3,592,000 in sales. They made a profit in 1967, without caking depreciation, the same in 1968, not allowing for depreciation. The profit in l969 was $62,193.00 after depreciation of $188,000. In 1970 a loss of $190 after taking depreciation of $628,000 .

In 1971 a loss of $11,663 .00 after taking depreciation of $849,000. Their sales in 1972 have been 12,400 tons valued at $400,000 compared with 29,700 tons valued at $900,000 in the same period last year . The sales of cement are starting to pick up a little in the past two weeks. So that is just some information on the project and I move that the amendments to. the agreement and that the legislation be approved by the Rouse . 425

May 1, 1972 Tape no.159 Page 1 - mrw MR. ROWE (W ,N.): Mr. Speaker, as the hon. minister has already mentioned, if my memory serves me correctly, we did in fact do this in our term of office that is we provided for this by Order-in-Council and this is merely the legislation to clean that up, It seems to be an em:i.nently sensible thing to do. We obviously have no objections to it and we support it. MR. ROBERTS: I wonder, Mr.

Speaker, if I might ask the minister, (he p-robably would not have the information there but he might be able to get it) I was just keeping a rou!!;h account of the depreciation the company has been taking and was it unusually large during the 1970 and 1971 years, the two years in respect of which the company made a loss? It was $650,000 one year and $850,000 the second·year, that is $1,5 million. Is that unusually large and if so, why is it so large and what are they up to? What are the values of the assets against which they are taking?

I assume by deprecation we are also coverin~ capi~al cost allowance for tax purposes. This is one of these Crown corporations that use . the tax shelter gimmick. As my colleague has said, we are quite prepared to support the legislation. The minister either now or in committee might wish to go into that aspect of it. MR. CROSBIE: They have not taken any depreciation in previous years and this is probably why it is so large. MR. ROBERTS: Have they now recaptured it all I wonder? MR. CROSBIE: I do not know. I will have to ask.

On motion a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Agreement Entered Into, Executed And Delivered In Pursuance Of And In The Form Set Forth In The

Schedule To The Government-Newfoundland Cement Company Limited And North Star Cement Limited (Authorization Of Agreement)Act, 1959, And To ltak.e Certain Statutory Provisions Relating To That Agreement," read a second tim'l!, ordered referred to a committee of the whole House presently by leave. Fbtion second reading of -a bill, _ "An Act To Amend The Agreement ·Ratified, Confirmed And Adopted By And Set Forth In The

Schedule To The Newfoundland Fibrply Limited (Agreement) Act, 1963 And To Make Certain Statutory Provisions 426

May 1, 1972 Tape no, 159 Page 2 Relating To That Agreement," MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker; this is a similar bill to the bill the House just considered with respect to North Star Cement Limited. In this case there is an agreement between the Government of Newfoundland and Newfoundland Fibrply Limited and Wood Products Limited in connection with another Crown corporation,entered into by the previous government in 1963. It is a similar arrangement. The people involved are the Newfoundland Fibrply Limited and are operating the company.

They are obliged each year to redeem a certain number of voting preferred shares which represents the government's investment in the corporation. When they finally have redeemed all these shares, they would become the owners of the company. The principle is the same,that they have asked for a change in the agreement so that if in any year they have redeemed more than they were required to as a minimum and find themselves in the air where it is difficult for them to redeem the minimum number, they would get credit for that in that particular year.

Fibrply does have a credit at the moment of $56,200, In other words, they have redeemed $56,200 more of shares than they had to,as a minimum,which they could use as a credit in the future if that became necessary. Our total investment in Newfoundland Fibrply, as the province's investment at December 31, 1970 is $1,108,200. Newfoundland Fibrply normally employes forty-five to fifty people.

At the present time they have one shift which they are not using,so currently they are employing thirty-eight people, Their sales for the last three years: In 1969, they had sales of $799,000; in 1970, they had quite a slump, a sale of only $334,000; last year, 1971, they had sales of $340,000 and they estimate their sales for 1972 at $500,000. The profit picture took no depreciation, For the last three years, it was $162,000; 1970, $23,000; 1971, $11,000 and they estimate,hope for profit this year of $65,000. They have had a profit every year without taking depreciation.

I would therefore move second reading of the bill, 427

Tape no. 159 Page 3 May l, 1972 MR. ROBERTS Mr. Speaker, again there does not need to be very much said to what the minister said. There is another little technical question: If they have been making a profit without taking depreciation, I wonder what the position would have been if they had been taking depreciation? What loss would they have made? The asset involved is,as with all physical assets,presU111ably depreciating. That is the whole reason why the accountants have come up with depreciation as a concept and why the - I guess I do not have to wind -my watch.

It is terrible having a calendar watch I when you go to 31st of the month instead of the 1st of the month. The accountants have the concept of depreciation and the tax people have the concept of capital cost allowance and they are both the same, an allowance being made to cover on the owner's part his wasting asset. I think perhaps if the minister could let us know, we, the people of Newfoundland still own this enterprise, whether we should or should not is beside the point. It is subject to .what amounts to an option for sale, paid for out of the profits.

I would be interested in knowing what the position of the company is and when ate assets are depreciated,according to the normal accounting standards? Again I assume there are no tax liabilities involved because again I assume they are using the Crown corporation tax loophole which existed for so many years until it was plugged by the Government of Canada a couple of years ago. Again we will support the bill, with no question of principle. 428

May 1, 1972, Tape 160, Page 1 -- apb MR. CROSBIE: I would like to say to the House that we will be reviewing all these companies during the year. Naturally, in the press of present business we have not had time to review then. If my hon. friend will wait until next year, I will certainly be able to give him all he wants to know about whether they are taking proper depreciation or not. It would be innocuous to comment that of course, my hon. friend could have had all this information when he was in the government. The public is entitled to it an:yle1ay and we will be reviewing all of these, particularly ••• MR.

ROBEFTS· MR. CROSBIE: (Inaudible) Right. I would be delighted to hear the answers to his ouestions if he has them. We will be reviewing all of this, Mr.Speaker, On motion, Bill read a second time ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently by leave. }fotion, second reading of a Bill, ''An Act To Ratify, Confirm And Adopt An Agreement Made Between The Government And Allied Chemical Corporation.' (No. 30). MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I wish we could get a little more room over here. If the Public Works Committee could do something to give us a little more room.

This Bill is the result of a policy decision made by the previous administration,who apparently decided sometime within the last year that the provincial parks system should be moved from the Department of Mines, Agriculture and Resources to the Department of Economic Development. I do not know what the particular reason for that was, but it has been with the Department of Economic Development now for some months and this :i.s ·amending the Act in accordance with that decision. This administration has not decided, Mr.

Speaker, whether this is the proper place for provincial parks or not, but since it is there at the moment it is just as well to recognize the fact. 429

Hay l, 1972, Tape 160, Page 2 -- apb As the House knows, the government, the Premier has appointed a committee on the functions of government and that ~ommittee is studying each rovernment department in relation to the functions each is carrying on and they will recommend whether they think there should be any rearrangin~ of functions or any changes within departments or even whether there should be any departments that should disappear and be divided among other departments. Provincial parks will obviously be looked at by that committee also.

In the meantime, what this does is recognize the transfer that has been made. There may.have to be another transfer next year and there may not, it depends on what that committee would recommend, This would mean that parks will come under the Department of Economic Development · rather than Mines, Agriculture and Resources where it has been now for some ten or twelve months. MR. W .N .ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, it is quite true 1 as the hon. minister has stated, that the previous administration did in fact, by Order in Council,for practical purposes move the ~rovincial Parks Division of the Department of Hines, Agriculture and Resources to the Department of Economic Development. I do not think it is a matter of any great importanc:, Mr. Speaker, and if the hon. minister wanted to withdraw the Bill I am sure he would get unanimous consent of the House.

In the event that he wants to proceed with the Bill as he has shown he does, I think that I could mention to him that our rationale at the time, although I was neither Minister of Mines and Resources nor Economic Development, I think the government's rationale at the time was that provincial parks . were more associated with tourism than anything else in the government 'and that tourism was something which properly came under the Department of Economic Development. We hope that it will be one of the mainstays of economic development in this province in the future.

That was the simpJe rationale for making that particular move. 430

May l, 1972 1 Tape 160, Page 3 - apb Also, as an ancilliary sort of reason for that move, as the hon. Minister of Mines, Agriculture and Resour ces probably all too well knows by now, his dl'partrne:i.t is one of the largest and most diffuse and takes int~ account and has jurisdiction over probably more of a variety of items than any other department in the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador. AN HON. ~IF.l-IBER: The f;ros tfor ne Nationa l Park deal ... -----·---- MR. W.N .

ROWE: That is ri)?ht, t.hat will occupy his time . l think it is more as a favour to the Y.inister of rlines, Agric ulture and Resources whoever he mi~ht be from time to time, as -a favo ur to him that this particular move..2as made by the previous administration . We support the Bill, Hr . Speaker. On motion, Bill read a second time ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently by leave. Motion, second reading of a Bill, ''An Act Furthe .r To Amend The Constabulary (Pensions) Act, 1970... (No. 32). 431

May 1, 1972 Tape 161 JM - 1 MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, this is as it says, a bill to amend the Constabulary (Pensions) Act, 1970 and the puroose of it is explained in the explanatory notes. The main purpose is to permit a contributor to the Constabulary Pension Plan to retire at age sixty rather than to have to wait to age sixty-five. As the House knows the usual retirement age is sixty-five years and the rule of legislation has been that you could 'not retire until you were sixty-five except by taking a loss in your pension.

This would permit a man who has fifteen years-of pensionable service to retir.e if he chooses when he reaches his sixieth birthday and receive a pension based on h1.s pensionable service that had accumulated up to that time. In addition it would also allow a second election to a female pensioned under the Act who marries and whose marriage is annulled or disolved.

In other words the female employees had an option before that they could go into the pension plan or not and if they were married and had made an option that they did not want to participate in the pension plan but their husband died they would be given a second option,if their husband died they could then go into the pension plan. So this .1ust amends that to give the same option if the woman involved gets divorced or her marriage is annulled. Of course there are very few of these in Newfoundland as we know who get annulled or divorced but anyway this is to give them the same option.

If something happens and they are divorced they can take an option then to go into the pension plan. It seems sensible enough. So that is the purpose of these amendments, Mr. Speaker. They were approved by the Pension Conunittee of the Government and would go into affect the 15th of October, 1971, section (2) of the bill and April 1, 1967 for the female portion of the bill. On motion bill read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee 432

May 1, 1972 Tape 161 of the whole House, presently by leave. Motion, second reading of a bill, ''An Act Further To Amend The Public Service (Pensions) Act, 1968." ~-'.- CR~-~lE;_: Mr. Speaker, this is a more lengthy series of amendments to the Public Service Pensions Act of 1968. The first several clauses relate to the pensionability of contractual officers. The Act as it now stands without this amendment excludes all contractual officers from becoming pensionable or having any of their service recognized as pensionable. This was not the int.ention of government when the act was drafted ori~inally.

The intention was that contractual officers who had special pension rights would not come under the ordinary Public Service Pensions Act but contractual officers who did not have special pension rights, of course, would. But the way the original act is mentioned that is not clear and the amendment will clarify the situation.

So that the situation would be if he is an employee who has a special employment contract including pension rights he would not come under the Public Service Pensions Act but if there are contractual employees who do not have special pension rights their service would be recognized as pensionable service. ~hat is the purpose of clauses (2) and (3). Clause (4) is a similar clause to the one we just mentioned on the Constabulary Pensions Act.

The married female who elects not to participate in the Public Service Pension Plan,the position is now that if her husband dies she can then elect to go into the plan if she wants to. So we suggest an amendment that if her husband dies or she becomes divorced or the marriage is annulled she again be given the option of goin~ into the plan. Clause (5) deals with the crediting of service orior to the beginning of the Public Service Pensions Act of 1968. The present situation is that to give credit 433 JM - 2

May 1, 1972 Tape 161 JM - 3 MR. CROSBIE: for teaching service or service with the railway or whatever for a person who has come into the public service, for them to get credit for service teaching and so on you would have to obtain the approval of the Lieutenant Governor-in-Council. Now the amendment would provide that, which was the original intention, that such people will be allowed credit for all service performed prior to the 1st of April, 1967 provided that they were employed by the government on the 1st of April, 1967.

So if a person were with the government on the 1st of April, 1967 he would automatically get credit for his teachin~ service if he had been a teacher before or whatever the other recognized categories are and you do not have to get the consent of the Lieutenant-Governor -in Connell. Clause (6) is to provide a technical adiustment.

The act provides that when a contributor has accumulated service that would total seventy per-cent, that is one and three quarters per-cent per year for each year prior to April 1, 1967 and two per-cent per year for each year after the 1st of April, 1967 he would be entitled to receive a pension equal to seventy per-cent of his average for any five years of service after the 1st of April,. 1967. In cases whe~e a calculated pension is more than seventy per-·cent the act provides that the pension be reduced to the maximum allowable.

If on the other hand the calculatPd pension is lower than seventy per-cent allowable there are no provisions to adjust up to seventy per-cent. This amendment will enable that provision to be made. I hope that is clear to the House what this is, if it is I am delighted as it is not clear to me but anyway this is the reason for the amendment and the Pensions Committee has approved it. We n.ow have the consen ·t to reduce this allowance and there should also be consent to increase it. 434

May 1, 1972 Tape 161 MR. CROSBIE: ----- - The next Clause (7) would permit government employees to retire at age sixty after 435 JM - 4

May 1, 1972. Tape 162 Page 1. fifteen years of service if they wish to - ten years, sorry, this case. A government employee who has ten vears of service, attains sixty,can then retire, does not have to wait until sixty-five. He would get a pension of course based on his years of service u-r to that time. Clause 8 provides for the pensionabilitv of quast-government organi­ zations whose services may be contracted out to non-government bodies.

What it means is this: That certain employees of government have now been transferred, in the case of the General Hospital, or the General Hospital Corporation, or in connection with the dietary department to Versa Foods, a private organization,and in the case of the laundrey,Laundry Servicef Limited. This amendment will permit them to continue to J!.articipate in the government's '.·,ension plan and to maintain pensionability, which I think is only fair because they have involuntarily been contrHcted out to another body. Clause 9 repeals the

schedule of the Act. The

schedule has certain actuartal reduction factors no longer necessary due to the lowering of the retirement age as I referred to earlier. In other i;.•ords, if you retired at sixtv your pension was reduced actuarially sixtv-one, sixty-two - now that we are givinii: them permission to retire at sixty, that

schedule is not any lon!?er needed. So those are the amendment~Mr. Speaker, I would therefore move the second reading of the Act. MR.ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, as the honourable gentleman has indicated these are not necessartly earth-shaking but they do re!)resent a tidying up of a number of the loose ends in the pension plan, the Puhlic Service Pensi~n )Flan which I think is a very good one. It is one that has been in effect now for four or five years. It is modelled essentially on the fovernment of Canada ~blic t;ervice Plan.' The minister has touched on the two or three weaknesses.

It showed up in the administration of the plan parti­ cularly this matter of the former direct government servants who moved out because of the fact that the body which employs them has become other than the government,directly. For examole, the General Hospital,the computer 436

May 1, 1972, Tape 162. Page 2. corporation and all the other agencies of government will increasingly have to use to do their work, I think that is particularly important if as I hope the government carry on with the policy which although it was adopted by the previous administration I th:1.nk is non-partisan. It should be. My friend the Minister of Health is not here, but he is the one who has to do with it directly, the policy of more and more moving hospitals out from under direct control of the government, into the hands of local boards. The government put up the cost for all hospitals in this province.

I suppose ninety-nine cents out of every dollar sl)ent is found by the iunister of Finance in one way or another but the fact remains that the government now ol)erate relatively speaking very few hospitals I hope it will become fewer. If people are to move out into that sort of arrangement Sir, working for a crown corporation or a board incorporated under a statute then their pension rights must be protected. The world in which we are living -pensions are as much a condition of eml)loyment as wages and what have you.

Indeed I suspect when the next round of negotiations come round with N.A.P.E. or whatever it is called the government will find ,ensions are an item to be negotiated just as our wages and working conditions. I know the gentleman from St. John's South would agree with the view that pensions are very much a matter of - the type of matter to he negotiated if he is acting for the employee be has one view if he is acting for the employer he has another, well we all do, they are increasingly going to be of concern to this House and to the public.

The only other point in it and tt is fairly ~ajor is the fact that the people of Newfoundland are not allowing their public servants to retire at sixty. Their pension would be as the minister quite properly said it would be lessened, related to their years of service. It is quite possible Sir to get a maximum pension at age sixty The minister can correct me if I am wrong but I think that you can attain the maximum pension after thirty ·-five years of service. That would mean if a person comes to work with the public service at the age of twenty-five by the time he is sixty 437

?-lay l, 1972. Tape 162 Page 3 . he •..'ill have huilt up his maximum pension credit. If then he decides t o ret i re he. ui.11 get h:ls f11ll nension not one that is reduced ac.tuarially as was hitherto, This is a new nr1nciple it is one that is t ncre asin,:zlv come into fo r ce across Cana da, the Government of Caooda adopted it a year or so ap.o,e.Rsentially all th'L-; legisl ati on does i.s follow up on t his and a number of Olher items . I hof)e that one of these days Sir, we will be. ~ble to have a full dehate on pension plans i n th is Rouse something the ministry might wish to look at.

Something which is of concern to us increasingly is the question of pr ivate pension plans. \lost of them in t his pro vince are not funded. Host of them in this province t he lack of funding does not matter, the pnblic ones are not funded but most of them in this province are not governed i n any way at all Sir. There have been cases 43 8

May 1, 1972 Tape 163 MR. ROBERTS: withi'!l recent years of people who have spent a number of years working for a private firm thinking they have pension benefits, sometimes even paying towards them a small percentage of their salary where those pension benefits,when PK - 1 reality shooted into the matter, when those pension benefits were found not to be existent or to have evaporated. Pensions generally speaking are a matter of contract, a contract that should be policed in th;c public interest.

When the honourable gentlemen work through their other priority matters, well they have only four years, 1,ut when they begin to work on them they might wish to look at this one. A number of other jurisdictions have gone a long way towards it and it is something that we should mrwE'"i.nto. Anyway that is a hit of a long dissertation on what is a very simple bill in principle, Sir. It is a good bill and we are delighted to support it. On motion Bill, read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently: by leave.

Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act Respecting The A1"ard Of An Increase Of Pensions To Or In Respect Of Certain Employees Of The Government And Certain Teachers." MR. CROSBIE: The purpose of this legislation, Mr. Speaker, is to approve something that is has already been done. It was done by the previous administration and that is to approve certain increases given certain teachers who are on pension and certain other government employees who were on pension in previous years.

There was an nrder-in-Council passed with respect to teachers and former civil servants including railway employees who retired prior to the 1st. of April, 1967. The increase I believe was given last fall. There was an increase in pensions _for teachers. I think that was given in 1970, which was also authorized by this bill, and an increase in pensions of former civil servants, constabulary, railway employees and so on that was given last fall. You will see 439

~fay 1, 1972 Tape 163 PK - 2 MR. CROSBIE: that the percentage increase is shown in the

schedule on page five of the bill. It is twenty percent if you were pensioned before January 1, 1960. Eighteen percent if you were pensioned in 1960 and so on, then if you wete pensioned during the first few months of 1967 the increase was four percent. So that increase was given and has been paid out. This bill is to approve what has been done certainly the earlier intentions. c~rtainly previous to 1960 and any of those,since the pensions were quite low and an increase was badly needed.

In any event this is to authorize it,The monies have already been sperit for this year, as was explained when the supplementary supply came before the House. So I move second reading of the bill. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, may I ask just one question. These matters have been coming up over the past number of years, are we just about clued up now? We had one for Gander, one for "CB~" employees and what have you, Are we just about near the end of the rope, Mr. Speaker? MR CROSBIE: Well, this is a general increase for everyone who was on pension.

You know it is not in the same category as Gander, people who worked at Gander and so on. That was to continue for another year or so. This was a general increase for all those people who are on pension, a general increase in the pensions. MR MURPHY: (Inaudible) MR CROSBIE: Well, that would depend on what the government felt at the time. If it were felt in a years time or two or three that the pensions these people were receiving were desperately low, then there might be a further increase. I am always interested in answering any questions, no matter from what side of the House.

We are not used to seeing a ~inister questioned on the same side of the House. MR. ROWE, W.N. Mr. Speaker, as the honourable the minister has already indicated this,again as with most of these smaller bills I think it is 440

Nay 1, 1972 Tape .163 PK - 3 ~!R. ROIIE, fl.N. again somethinJl which the previous administration did in fact and -was very pleased to do and pro.ud to do and we are delighted now to see that the thing is being given legislati ve authorities. On motion hill. read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole Flo.use presently: by leave. Notion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Civil Service (Tra nsferred Employees) Act, 1956. " MR. CROS!I£: Mr.

Speaker, this is an amendment that is similar in intention to seve:raJ. we have dealt with thi s afternoon, only it refers to tranferred employees, that is, employees who transferred from the service of the Government of Nevfoundland to the Government of Canada in 1949. At present 441

May 1, 1972 Tape No. 164 NC - 1 MR. CROSBIE: under the Act. Employees who transfer at the date of union may elect to retire at the age of 60. The portion of his pension being paid by the Newfoundland Government in respect of his preunion services would be reduced because of his early retirement. That is the present situation. This is a Newfoundlander now who worked with the Government of Newfoundland before 1949 then went with Canada.

This amendment would permit him now to retire between the ages of 60 and 65 without reduction in pension with respect to the years the Newfoundland Government is responsible for which are the years of his service before 1949 in line with the amendments the House has already approved this afternoon. I would therefore move second reading. On motion a Bill, "An Act To Amend The Civil Service (Transferred Employees) Act, 1956," read a second time ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently by leave. Motion second reading of a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Civil Service Act." MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, the purpose of this amendment is this, that The Civil Service Act, with respect to pen·sions is still in effect with respect to civil servants who chose not to go under The Pulbic Service fcnsions Act passed in 1968 but who decided that they would continue under the previous Civil Service Pension Act. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: I do not know what their benefits are but whate~er they are they must know what they are because they chose to stay under them.

There were about 200 as I understand it, about 200 of all Newfoundland Government employees who decided that they would sooner remain under the old Act than go under the new one. Now the purpose of this amendment is to permit them to retire at age 60, between the age of 60 and 65, the same as we have done this afternoon for other groups. That is the effect of clause (2). Clause (3) provides for the return of contributions in the case of employees who elected to remain undef the old Civil Service Act and who resign or die or for any other reason are not entitled to a pension.

This amendment was forgotten to be included when 442

May 1, 1972 Tape No. 164 NC· - 2 MR. CROSBIE~ The Civil Service Act was amended in 1968 so it provides that you get your contribution back if you resign or die or for some reason you are found not to be entitled to a pension, you or your estate get the contributions back. Clause (4) provides for the payment of pension premiums in respect of special leave without pay, subject to the approval of th~ minister.

A similar provision exists under The Public Service Pensions Act,1968, that is if you have leave of absence, special leave of absence authorized by the minister and you pay your contributions while you are on that period of leave of absence that is permitted. The final clause, clause (5) makes provision for the recovery of any monies due the government by employees who might receive a refund under clause (g). In other words they could deduct from the refund any amount they owe the government.

Then the date of its coming into force of the amendments is given in section (6) - April 1, 1967 with respect to sections (3) and (4) and October 15. 1971 with respect to section (2). I the~efore •ove second reading. HON. A. J. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, just one short question to the minister on that and something I have asked over the years, with reference to the rate of interest on these contributions and at what rate is it based and is there interest paid on it? AN HON.MEMBER: said. The hon, minister did not hear a word the hon, gentleman MR. MURPHY: The hon. minister is busy.

What would he do-·with you guys if he ignores me like this? MR. CROSBIE: Sorry. Ml.. MURPHY: I am just wonder, this is a question I have asked on many o·ccasions, what interest rate is paid on a refund of any premiums and if there is any interest paid, and is it pegged at a certain percentage or not? Is the ministe:r· aware of that? MR. CROSBIE-; What interest is paid on contributions or returns? is 3%. 443 I think it

May 1,1972 Tape No. 164 NC - 3 MR. ROBERTS: I just want to say briefly that we are prepared to support the Bill. Indeed I suspect that it was largely prepared or the policy that. was adopted while we were the administration of the province.

For the benefit of my friend from St, John's East, the Minister of Ptv11incial Affairs, who seems to be absent again, he is like a jack in the box these days_ here he comes now, I think the rate is 3%, It is 3%, I may __ say it is the first time I think in my knowledge I have heard a minister questioning a minister in the House on a point of policy, It could be very interesting on Orders of the Day, Mr. Speaker, we are looking forward to it. MR. MURPHY: With that policy you can find a hit of information. MR. ROBERTS: Hell,Mr.

Speaker, policy could very much be information and I quite agree it is a good point to bring out. As I said, in case the minister have any doubt, the rate is 3%, Perhaps it should be raised, It is something again that should be looked at, The only problem is that if you raise it, it ups the cost of administering the plan and as my colleague says, the temperamental minister might not go for that, but that is another story, Mr. Speaker, On motion a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Civil Service Act," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole Rouse, presently by leave.

Motion second rending of a Bill, "An Act To Amend The Pippy Park Commisi::ion.Act, 1968." MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, this is a very simple Bill that would p.ermit regulations to be made with respect to the C.A. Pippy Park control area. I move second reading. 444

May 1, 1972 Tape no. 165 Page 1 - MRW On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Pippy Park Commission Act, 1968," read a second time, ordered referred to a committee of the whole House presently. MR. MARSRALL: I move that the House ~ow move into committee of the whole on bill no. 2 to 20 and certain other orders that we have already passed today. On motion that the House go into committee of the whole on said bills, Mr. Speak~r left the Chair. MR. L.

BARRY (Chairman of Committee of the Whole) A bill, "An Act To Amend The Statute Law." Motion that the committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried. A bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Registration Of Deeds Act." Motion that the committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried. A bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Assignment Of Books Debt Act." Motion that the committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried.

A bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Direct Sellers Act, 1966." Motion that the committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried, A bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Evidence Act." Motion that the committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried. A bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Commissioners For Oaths Act, 1954. II Motion that the committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried, A bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Prisons Act, 1969. 11 MR . MARSHALL: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to move an amendment to clause (2) because of an error in the draftsmanship, in the typing I am informed by the 445

May 1, 1972 Tape no. 165 Page 2 Mr. Marshall hon. Minister of Justice. It is in the third last line of section (2)(

a) and I would move that the word "a" (It looks like the hon. Minister of Justice has done an expert job of blotting it out) be deleted and replaced by the word "they." 446

May 1, 1972, Tape 166, Page 1 -- apb 1-!F.. ~IARSHALL: So they would read, "this act shall apply to such place of ------ ·---- confinement,under such last mentioned named as fully ',and effectually as they applied. " I have no doubt, Mr. Chairman, that it is desired that the !{inister of Justice will be only too happy to speak to that al'lendment. On motion, amendment carried. On motion, clause (2) carried.

On Clause (3), would the hon. minister let us know, I probably should have this information myself, but I have for~otten and he may know - now that the superintendent and the assistant superintendent and other members of the permanent staff constitute as police officers and they have certain powers which they can exercise, not only within the penitentiary but outside in the precincts and environs, r,ivinp, them all the powers of the constabulary, is there a complete parity in pay now or is there still some distinction? Does the hon -. minister remember that? tlF_. HICKl-~N: The relevancy to that

section escapes me, 'Hr. Chairman, but I prefer not to ans~•rer that question because I am actually certain. The pattern was that - the policy always was that the three forces received the same pay. They do have separate bargaining units now anfl there may be some differential, not too much. On motion, clause (3) carried. On motion clause (4) carried. Clause (5), Mr.

Chairman, you may recall that during second readinr, the debate on second reading, we on this side made a number of what we thought to be crucial points on this whole idea of any person who without lawful excuse, the truth of which lies upon him,being pulled off to court and having to exonerate.himself of a criminal accusation, we thought that this was wrong on principle and at that time if I rel'lember correctly, the hon. minister mentioned that he would look at this once more to see if it was absolutely necessary that we should violate the principles which have been built up in 447

May 1, 1972, Tape 166, Page 2 -- apb criminal law over the centuries in order to take care of some problem which could not be dealt with in any other way. Has he looked into that now, Mr. Chairman, I wonder and is he prepared to withdraw that particular section? MR. llICKHAN: I looked into it, Hr. Chairman, and I am not prepared to withdraw that particular section. The - not that uniformity is a good answer to any-legislation, but this is not only uniform leg:1.slation within the various prison Acts, but it is also identical with the similar provision in the Criminal Code.

The problem is that there has to be some control of loitering around prison walls. If you see a person loitering around a p-rison wall, how do you prove that he is loitering there with intent to maybe aid somebody to escape? This is the problem that you have within penitentiaries generally. People hang around and try to flick sometning over the wall that ordinarily should not be inside. I am' informed by the prison officials that this is not an onerous section. There is no great principle of the Criminal Law violated here and that it is necessary to maintain the security. MR.

ROBERTS: With all defference to the officials at our prisons who I think are very good prison officials, I do not think we should accept them as authorities on criminal law. The fact remains that although this may be uniform and although any number of things, this is still a

section that puts the onus upon a person to prove himself innocent as opposed to the more normal principle of Criminal Law of putting the onus upon the accuser to prove his accusation. Because of the circumstances the hon. gentleman has suggested, Mr. Chairman, there might be some 'case even for going to the standard of balance of probabilities as opposed to the usual quite rigorous standard of the Criminal Law. If the hon. gentleman is not prepared to accept any amendment to this, then I think we would move that the

section be deleted, section (5) be deleted. I do so without any real expectation that nine of us will overwhelm how ever many are on the other side, but I think it should be placed on the record. I am 448

May 1, 1972, Tape 166, Page 3 -- apb sure there are other means of achieving the end. The end in itself may be desirable, but, Mr. Chairman, I have long ago come to the philosophical concept that the end does not justify the means. llavinp people loiter around prisons may be not very desirable but it is even less desirable, Sir, to create another offence whereby a person can be accused by a functionary, accused by an official of just being somewhere and then havin~ to l!.O to the trouble and the expense and the difficulty of proving himself innocent. I do not like it so I move that the clause be deleted. MR.

HICKMAN: -·-·--- -- Nr. Chairman, obviously we on this side of the House will oppose the vote against that amenc!ment. May I point out, Sir. that all he has to do . anv ner!'<on who is loj tering, j s prove that he was there with lawful excuse. It is as simple as that. The

section as it now stands reads: any person who without lawful excuse, the proof of t-!hich lies upon him, entcr!'I in or in any other way trespasse·s upon or loiters near a penitentiary .•. ,. It follows there is no great -- HJl. 'ROBERTS: ---- ~·-- ·- -- l'r. Chairman, I npnrecia te the minister's comments and I read the words of the new (l li\) that if this clause is adopted will go in the Act.

The words ··without lawful excuse'' are in there, but the minister has ner.lected or glossed over tre fact that all that has to ha_ppen is. you ;ire s tan di nv dm-m by the lakeside, Sir, wa tchinp: the races and some member of the prison staff decides you are there, he merely can drag you -- sure, all you have to do is convince somebody, but whom do you convince, Sir? The l'linister has not made out a case for this. I have every expectation that the -people on the other side will vote for it, Sir, I would be very surprised if they did not. That does not take away the belief that this is unnecessary and wron)?.

Without lawful excuse,granted, but without lawful excuse means appearing before a magistrate or some sort of peace officer, some sort of judicial officer., I think it is an infringement on the rights of the sub.iect and as I said, I move that it be deleted. We cannot divide in committee, we can take a vote and it can be recorded and then 449

May 1, 1972, Tape 166, Pa~e 4 -- apb we will go on from there. I think it is wrong and I think the minister has put up no case in favour of it. Until and unless he does, I for one will use my vote to the effect that this clause (5) he deleted. On motion, amendment defeated. (Standing Vote) 450

May 1, 1972 Tape no. 167 Pagel - MRW Mvtion , that the committee report having passed the bill with amendment , carried. A bill, "An Act Respecting The Registration Of Partnerships." _MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, on jlause (5), we are on the Partnership Bill, are we not? There was some considerable discussion at second reading about perhaps extending this somewhat. Ras the minister been able to look at that and if so, has he any amend.'l'!lents? Well he cannot offer them but one of his colleagues I mn sure would - well the minister is not. I think,Mr.

Chairman, I am prepared to move that the words, "for trading, manufacturing or mining purposes" be deleted and that will then leave: "Subject to subsection (2), persons associated in partnership shall cause to be registered with the Registrar, etc. etc." Let us let all partnerships in this province be registered, Sir, including those of my own profession of the law - the words inclusive from "for"in the second line to "purposes 11 be deleted. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. Leader of the Opposition is moving the deletion of the words, "for trading, manufacturing or mining purposes." On motion an1endment defeated.

On motion clause(5) carried, MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, this is a typographical or drafting error. I would move,

Section 5,8,11 or 13 on the second last line of Clause 14, deletion of the numeral "ll"therefrom so that it reads: "under

Section 5,8 or 13,"

Section 11 does not relate to that particulr declaration, Jilt. CHAIR.~: With the deletion of the coDlllla as well? MR, MARSHALL: Yes, Mr. Chairman, with the deletion of the comma. On motion clause (14) as amended, carried MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, clause (15), subclause (6), the word "register" in the first line, "when the former name has been restored to the register:" That should read "books and records." I, therefore, move that the word "register' be deleted from subclause (6) of clause 15 and be replaced with the words, "books and records, 11 On motion clause (15) as amended, carried. 451

May 1, 1972 Tape no. 167 Page 2 Motion that the committee report having passed the bill with amendments, carried. A bill, "An Act To Repeal The Pensions (Premiums)Act, 1966-1967." Motion that the committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried. A bill, "An Act To Repeal The Contingencies Act." 452

Tape 168 Pl< - 1 M:>t:fon, che collllllinee report the bill without ar.endment, Carried A hill. "An /\ct Further To Amend The AJtreement Entered Into, r~ecuted And Delivered Tn Pursuance Of And Tn The Form ~et Forth In The S~•-'dule 1'o ·me Governrnent-l'Tewf~undland r.enenL Company T,imited Ancl N"orth Star Ce.'!1.ent Limited (Authorlzacion Of Acrcement) Act . l~5CI, And To ~lake Certain $tacur.o rv rrovisf ons Relatinp. To That Arreement . ·• (Bill :,o. 38) . ~otion ,the committee report the hill ~1chout Mendment,Carried A bill, "An Act To Amend The J\jtreement Ratified, Confirmed Anci J\dopted !Iv And Set Forth Tn The

Schedule To The Newfoundlan d fit,r,,ly T.imited (As:-reenent) Act, 1963 . And To Make Certain l'itatuto ry ?rovisions Relatinp To That Ar,r,-ement . " (Bill No. 3')) . Motion. the committee report the hill without amendment. C:l rr If' 1 A hi 11, ''

An Act Further To All'lend The Provincial Parks Act." (Bill :,o. 12). '!orion. the. commitee re.port the bill without amendment.C'.arrte, . A 1'111, "An Ace Further To Mend The CC1nstah I arv (Pensio ns) .A.ct. 1970." (bill No . 32). Motion, the <"oJ11I!litee report. the l>ill without :imendmenc Carried A hill, ''An Act Further TCI &rend The .,), : i · • rvtce (Pensions) Act, 1968. (Rill }'.o. 46) . Mod.on, che CO!Ul!lit tee report the hill without amendment ,Carried A t,111, "An Act Respectinr. ThP. Aw.a-rd Of An Increase Of Pe.ns"ions 1'o Or 1n 'Resr,sct If Certajn Employees Of The Government And Certain Teachers. (ni.11 No. 33) • 453

May 1, 1972 Tape 169 Motion, that the Committee report havinp passed the bill without amendments, carried. JM - 1 A bill, "

An Act To Alllend The Civil Service (Transferred F.mplovees) Act. 1956. " Motion, that the Committee repor - havin~ oassed the bill ~ithout amendments. carried. A bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Civil Service Act. •· Motion, that the Committee rep ort navinp oassed the bill without amend.!Dents, carried. MR. __ 'URSHALL: Mr. Ccrirman, on order (26) which is

an Act Further To Anlend The Insurance Premiums Tax Act, 1968,norm ally introduced by means of a resoluti.on which is first referred to the Committee of the Whole, this wa.s not brou~ht up i n the House when the Rouse was in session but we seek permission now, leave of the Committee in order to have this resolution considered now in order to exped i te the business if we could. Pardon me, Mr. Chairman. ve arc told that the tech nicalit ies. even though we have leave of the Committee,will not allow us to do ic so we will 1ust have to refer it back or brin~ it up in the Rouse and brint it thr ough normally. Therefore I ~o on to number (10), order (10). 454

''-ay 1 , 1972 . Tape 170 Page 1. A Bj]l, •·An Act Resrecting The Organization, Operation, functions, Powers, Dutil!s, P.ight And Privileges Of The St. John's fire Department." Clauses 1 through 21 carried. MR • W.

RO¼'E : ~'r. (;hairrnan, CL:.u~e 22, honourable members may remember during the discussion on second reading of this 1,ill some reference is made to the fact that it seemed to he wron~ in principle if for no other reason that a party to an arbitration should also be entitled to appoint an arbitrator or a chairman in the event of default of one of the parties so appointing or the two arbitrators themselves so appointing a chai.rman. Has the honour­ ab] e minister given any cons !,leraticm to that?

Has he thoueht perhaps that it mir.ht be worthwhile in the event that the arbitrator for the government side and the arbitrator for the association side cannot come up with the name of a chairman of the hoard of arbitration that nerhaps a Supreme Court Judge or some other person or body •ip.;ht be given the power to aproint the third abitrator namely the chairman or do they think it is okay? That it is all right that the government,which is after all one of the parties, s:hould -·.lso have t' e ~ower to make such appointments under the Bill? '.'fR.HICK}fAN: "M:r.

Speaker, I checked back on this and I suspect that my honourable friend is familiar, I know he is, with negotiations that went on on this. The Act has been agreed to between the two parties, Similar provision is in the Constabulary Act. Last year it went through; apparently it is working reasonahly well.There has been no opportunjty to test whether it is working, the reasonableness of it or otherwise. I would prefer that thig

section remain as is at this time. Ordinaril y that is not the kind of clause that I would part1cularly like to see in

an act. I think there is a great deal of merit in the suggestions of mv honourable friend. But this time this act nas really come as a result of negotiations.I would be reluctant to make any changes.now. Clauses 22 through 49 carried. 455

May 1, 1972, Tape 170, ra~e 2 - aph A Bill. "'An Ac.t Resp-ectinp. The Organiz.ation, Operation , Functions, rovers, Duties, Ri~hts And Privileges Of The St. John's Fire Department. 1-'ot:ion, that the Co111111ittee report having pasi.ed the Bill without amendment. carried. A Bill, '

An Act Further To Amend The

Summary Jurisdiction J\ct.' 1''otion, that the Co11m1ittee report havi~ passed the Dill without amendment, carried. A Bill, ''An Act To Amend The Attachment Of Wa~e.s Act , 1966-67. •· Motion, that the Committe e report havi~ passed the Bill without .unendment, carried. A Bill, '

An Act To Amend The Chat tels Real Act., . }lotio n. that the Committee report having passed the 8111 without amendment, carried. A Bill. "

An Act To Amend The Pippy Park CoI!lll'.ission Act, 1968.' ~otion, that the Committe e report having passed . the Bill without amendment. carried. 456

"lay l. 1972. Tape 171 JM - 1 A bill, "

An Act To Amend. Revise And Consolidate The Law Resnectinr The or~an1zation And Administration Of Commanity Councils. On motion. Clauses 1 - 7. carri ed . MR_~_Htr~~; Clause (8). Mr. Chairman . Clause (fl), subsecti on (4) oo the. si.'tth line after the fifth ~ord "local"' I move that t:here be inserted the word ·'road'' so it \.11.ll then read. ' the local roa d board. '" On motion, r.lause (8) as amended, carried. On motion. Clause s 9 - 32. carried. ~ .:. HICKMAN: On Clause (33). }fr . Chairman, (33), subsec t ion (2) that should, read '' bus i nesses '' rather than "business " on the fifth line.

On motion, Clause (33) as amended, carried. On motion. Clauses 34 - 47 and schedule, carried . Motion, t hat the Committee reports havin~ passed the bill \.11th amendments . carr i ed. A bill.

An Act To Anend. Revise And Conso lidate The Law Relatin ~ To ~he Establishment And Administration Of Local Government .' On motion. Claus es l - 71, carried.

May 1, 1972 Tape No. 172 NC - 1 MR._ MA~HALL: With regard to clause 72, Mr. Chairman, clause 72, subsection (4), the cormna at the end of the last word should be changed to a full stop or a period. Again appearing on subsection (8) of clause 72, the last word in the second line should read, "distrain." There was a typographical error, the "i" should replace the "e". MR. MARSHALL: With regard to clause 82 (3), the word "property~ the second "e" appearing in the word should be deleted. MR. ~ILLETT l_H.W.£:J..:..

With regard to clause 93, I notice there is no provision for taxes on electrtcity and this has been mentioned to me in my home toi.n ~articularly since many of the new homes are heated by electricity and those who have older homes, being heated by oil subject to 1¢ a gallon tax. The same thing applies to people who are cooking by propane gas. The newer homes have complete electric heating, cooking and what not. I suggest that some sort of a tax should be imposed upon · electricity for the same purposes as the taxes imposed upon oil and propane gas. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Chaiman, the remarks made by the hon. the member for Twillingate are certainly well taken. They would be though matters which would really effect the substance and the principle of the Bill. I do not know what this situation is 0 I think from the point of view of administration, it would perhaps prove to be very hard to impose such a tax but as I say the point of the hon. the member for Twillingate is very well taken and the hon. member in this House can be assured that the government will ceitainly look into the feasibility of it.

MR, MARSHALL: With regard to clause 146, in the fifth line of sub-clausP. (2)the word "for" should read "far", substitute an "a" for an "o". On motion, clause 172 to 146, carried. 458

May 1, 1972 Tape 173 PR - l Motion ,that the "coomd.ttee report t he hill without amendment, carried . A h-J.11, "An Act 'PU-rther To Amend The Local Government (Receivership) Act " (Cill No. 37) • ~otion.that the commit tee report the hill without amendment, Cllrried. A hill, "'An Act To Repeal The Ro1,1rinp, Park Area (Control) Act ,' (Cill No. 11) . ~otion.that t he committe e report the bill w.ithout amendment. carried . A hill , "An Act Further To Amend The St . .John's (~<etrorolitan Art'\

a) Act, 1963 . " ( Bill ~o. 35). Hotion , that the committee 1:eport the hill without amendment, carried. A hill . "An Act Further To Ame.nd The City Of Corner P.rook Act, 19MI." (Bfll No. 40). MR. HJCI01AN: ~r. Chairman, t:lau se 2, the 1,•ord "to" to be inserted after 'referred" in the third line, "otion,al"lendment carried, ' lotion , t hat the collll!!ittee report the hill wi.th amendment, carried. A hill . "An Act Respec tin ~ The Applicat i on And Effect Of Certain Acts ~assed In The Present ~ession Of The Letislature Upon The Revised Statutes Of Newfoundland." (l\111 t\o. 1:8) . Motion, that the committee renort the hill without amendment, carried . 459

May 1, 1972 Tape no. 174 Page 1 - MRW On motion that the committee rise report having passed bills no. 7, 44, 41, 15, 4, 13, 14, 38, 39, 12, 32, 46, 33, 31, 45, 20, 27, 26, 23, 29, 43, 37, 11, 35 and 18 without amendment and the following bills no. 17,19,42 and 40 with some amendments, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair. Chmotion report received and adopted. On motion bills ordered read a third time on tomorrow. On motion of the hon. Minister of Finance, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Revenue And Audit Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the hon.

Minister of Finance, a bill, "An Act To Provide For Exemption Of Atlas Construction Co. Limited From Taxes Imposed By The Social Security Assessment Act, 1963," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the hon. Minister of Finance, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Constabulary (Pensions) Act, 1970," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the hon. Minister of Finance, a bill, "An Act To Move The House Into A Committee Of The Whole To Consider Certain Resolutions Respecting A Measure, Namely

An Act Respecting Succession Duty," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I would like to withdraw the calling of that motion. That is not supposed to be called for reasons. I would like to,just before we get on to the next order of business, Mr.

Speaker, there are two things I would like to mention: First of all, we have decided that in order to expedite the work of this House and in order to make the way clear for considering of other legislation later this week that this House will adjourn and meet tonight at 8:00 P.M. and the oppostion, I think, would be agreeable with respect to that.

I would like leave of the oppostion at this time, on behalf of my colleague the Minister of Finance to ask leave to introduce a bill which is the following bill, "An Act To Ratify, Confirm An Agreement Made Between The Government And Certain Companies Relating To The 460

May 1, 1972 Mr. Marshall Tape no. 174 Page 2 Lin e rboard Mill At Stephenville And To Provide For Certain Matters Relating Thereto. " I ask the consent of the House t::o give notice of of a motion , althou ght out of order now for first readin g - MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speake~, before we give leave f or notification, I wonder if the minister could tell us when we might expect to see the bill? I ask that because I understand that it is to be an unusually and probably an inevitably complicated piece of legislation.

If the government intend to bring it on for debate on Wednesday, as I understand they hope to do, I for one and I think two or three of my ooJleagues would like an opportunity to study it, The government have had this for several weeks and have had draft legislation presumably for several days. I wonder if the House Leader could indicate when we might expect to see the bill in some form? We understood that we would have it today and the whole business of sitting tonight, so forth and so on,has been predicated on that assumption. Before we give leave or not, perhaps the minister could tell us? MR.

MARSHALL: Well , Mr. Speaker, I could inform the House that it was hoped to have an Xerox copy of the bill to give to the hon. Leader of the Oppositon and the opposition today. Hopefully, we will still be able to do this ~ater on this evening, However, I wish to assure the House and assure the hon. Leader of the Opposition that we f~lly appreciate the nature of this bill which is a very, very important one and we shall be giving that we I can give the assurance to the hon.

Leader of the Oppost:ion shall certainly have it in his hands at least twenty-four hours before it is debated and we shall attempt to use our best endeavours to have it at least forty-eight hours before, HR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, on that basis, I, for one, cannot give consent. Twenty-four hours notice of a bill this complicate d is less than minimal. It is not enough to enable us to look at it.

I am quite prepared to give consent or I am quite prepared to ask the minister to hold on until later tonight because his request for leave can be at any time but I, for one, am not prepared to enter into second reading of this bill on a twen·ty-four hour notice. If he wants to give us the bill, a draft bill in confidence, fine. 461

May 1, 1972 Tape no. 174 Page 3 Mr. Roberts If he wants to give us an Xerox copy, it is fine but again other than that I think we will go by each stage at one notice. Maybe the thing to do, Mr. Speaker is to just let the matter stand and see how they come on with the bill. MR. MARSHALL: I concur, Mr. Speaker, That is fine. Later on as we get on into the evening session, it will perhaps be determined over the supper hour as to when we can actually releaethe bill. The only thing that I would like to - we will be going into order number(l), which is the Address in Reply.

I would like it to be understood then that we can or the Minister of Finance, if he is here at the time, can at any time come in at that juncture and ask for leave in the middle of the Address in Reply,and at the same time we will work out with the ooposttion as to notice. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, my co;leagues and I will agree to give leave, as of the moment we get a copy of the bill or several copies that we can look at. We are not trying to be difficult but we would like to look at the legislation. I think it is going to probab:fybe both complicated and important.

We will give leave any time that the hon. gentleman can get it. It will be either to htm:or to one of his colleagues to 462

May l, 1972 Tape 175 JM - 1 MR . ROBERTS: give the requisite notice so that we can go on to the first reading tomorrow. ~ -MARSHALL: Grand, well thanks! Now, Mr. Speaker, order (1) . ADDRESS IN REPLY: -·---- --- NR. CllEESEMA..1-l': Mr. Speaker, as 1 rise to address this honourRble House I do so with a great sense of pride and a deep sense rf resnonsibili ty. Pride, Mr. Speaker, in having the honour to represent in this House the great and historic district of Hermitage. Pride also, Mr.

Speaker, in having the opportunity to serve the Province of Newfoundland and in so doing to ioin with my colleagues in this honourable House and to serve in our time as our predecessors have done. I say also that I rise with a great sense of responsibility because I believe that by our very presence in this House , all of us elected members have chosen to take on the responsibilities and direction of this Province for the duration of the sittinr of this government. I believe>, Mr. Speaker, that it will take all our energies and "!) 1 our imazination to carry that _job through successfully.

I only hope and pr.ay that each and every one of us will keep this uppermost in our minds,that we are here to serve the interest of the peoole who saw fit to send us here. Now, Mr. Speaker, before itoing into my address I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate you, Sir, on your appointment to the high office, one which I am sure you will discharge with great ability. I would also like to congratulate the mover and seconder of the Address in Reply and also to all members who have spoken. I believe that the speeches have been of a very high order, Mr. S~eaker.

There are differences of opinion, naturally that is reasonable, that is what we are here for but I believe nevertheless that regardless of how it is presented 463

May 1, 1972 Tape 175 MR. CHEESEMAN: and there are those of us who are perhaps not as eloquent, perhaps not as versed in procedures but I do not think, Mr. Speaker, that that should detract from the intent the context of what a man says. I believe that everybody in addressing this honourable House. regardless of the district from which he comes or the side of the House on which he sits,is sincere in his hopes and his ambitions to be able to serve the people of this Province. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I understand that it has more or less reen the tradition of the House that the Address in Reply in the main JM - 2 deals with the district of whichever member happens to be representing that district in the House and this is a good thing, I guess, because it does give an opportunity for us to bring the particular or individual problems to the floor of this House and that is certainly one of our functions. However before doing that, as a result of some of the debate which has gone on previously, there are a few comments which I would like to make. I make these, Mr.

Speaker, because I believe that as a result of some of the comments made we are establishing or finding a basic difference in the approach to government. I believe that the gracious Speech from the Throne outlined a pretty clear course. However the Speech from the Throne, I suppose, is nothing more than ' a guidingjlight.

In itself it does not go anywhere, it is up to us the elected representatives to make sure that those thinps which are detailed in the gracious Speech from the Throne are carried through and carried through to the best of our ability, Now a few days a11:o the honourable member from Bell Island in addressing this honourable House touched on what I believe is a very basic difference in philosophy between past administrations and this administration. I am not sure that the honourable member 464

May 1, 1972 Tape 175 MR. CHEESEMAN: realized how deeply the difference was in that philosophy. The honourable member for Bell Island stated and I quote from the verbatim report of the House of Tuesday, April 25, on pa)!e 148 where the honourable gentleman said, ''private enterprise can no longer afford to employ people in large numbers." He went on further to say on that same page 4 ,r, ... I)~ JM - 3

May 1, 1972 Tape 176 MR. CIIEESF.MAN: only through government can work be created on a scale that will provide an alternative to people from going on welfare or on social assistance or on unemployment insurance. Strong words, Hr. Speaker, very strong words PK As I say, I believe this divides the basic philosophy of this administrations and the policies as outlined in the gracious Speech 1 from the Throne. Recause what it is, Mr.

Speaker,from what is contained in those words then I must only assume that the honourable the member for Bell Island meant to convey this,that within this r>rovince of Newfoundland today this honourable gentleman has no faith in pr:lvate enterprise. That is the effect of those·words, Mr. Speaker, and that as I say, I feel is a very, very serious comment on the province and the ability of the province to carry forward its programme. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the Speech from the Throne goes into some considerable detail on what this government intends to do to revitalize those communities around our coast that in the past have suffered from a degree of neglect, some perhaps to a p,reater extent than others. We heard the honourable member from Labrador North the other day make a very eloquent plea for the people in his district. I sympathize with him, Mr. Speaker. I have some knowledge of Labrador and I know that many of the thinp:s that the honourable the member for Labrador North stated are so. Equally. Mr.

Speakelr, these same conditions apply in many areas of this province and only through the greatest effort and the greatest imagination will this be overcome. But, surely, sureiy, Mr. Speaker, not one of us sitting"in this House can reasonably expect the government to be the "be all and do all and end all to all people." Because on that basfc philosophy what we are doing is encouraging a dependency on government which,as far as I am concerned, Mr. Speaker, has no 466

~oy 1, 1972 Tape 176 PK - 2 'fil. ClfEESEllAN· place in the basic philosophy of the free enterpri se system . I should hate t o feel that we were head ed in the direction of f.Overnment beinP. the controlling factor in everything. We have seen it in recent years all over the world, many areas of the world where ~overnment have tro1-m to be a larger and lnr~ er infl uence on people~ lives. llr . ~peaker. as far as t know and from what I have read and what I have seen it has not worked and I should hate to think there1o:r;e that that i.s the course on which we are embarked. I kno1>• it i.s not .

I know t hat the ~:racious Sp~ch from the Throne advocates the free enterprise system . The objec tive of the i:iracious i;peech from the ·rhrone is co provide the opportunity for people to work- not work, the opportunity to i.iork. I heli.eve this is the basic difference in the philosophy of this Aovernment and the previous administration. Now the honourahle the memher for 'Bell !i::land when he stated that this was the only alternative to $1.0i~ on welfare, social assistance or unemployment insurance~ I would like to make two coll!l!lents on that.

One is that, and I am sure that the honourable tne.Jllher is t1ell aware of chis, 467

M.ay 1, 1972 Tape No.177 that unemployment insurance is paid out as a result of work which has been provided by the free enterprise system. If it were not for the contributions made by people working, there could not be any unemployment insurance. Therefore I suggest that there is no way that the government can provide total work without at the same time receiving money, public money via the tax system in order to even help, never mind provide. Government it its own right, Mr. Speaker, has no money.

Now if we had a government in this province or in this country that had a mandate to print money, t would agree with the hon. member that government coulrl spend a few days a week printing money and then a few days dreaming up projects on which the money could be spent and perhaps in that way government could provide work for people But, Sir, as long as we live under the free enterprise s ystem which we have in this province, in this country today and which, incidentally, Mr. Speaker, I hope for one I shall never live under any other system.

But as long as we have that system then we must rely on the private enterprise system to develop the country, to develop the province, t., 1•rovide the tax money that will give the government the dollars which they need to help perhaps other areas of not only our province but our country to develop in their turn. But it is absolutely essential that profits be generated somewhere and I would suggest that it will be a sad day for this country when we begin to rely more heavily, because, Mr. Speaker, I believe that already we hfve relied far too heavily on welfare. I believe it has taken something from our people.

In 1949 when this great Province of Newfoundland and Labrador entered into confederation with Canada we did so and I am sure that the people who were the prime movers at that time felt in their own hearts and souls that this was the best course for the Province of Newfolllldland. They did so in all honesty and sincerity. Of that I am certain. But, Mr.

Speaker, if the end result of that union is to be that we become a welfare province, where we lean on government for everything, where government wants to control everything, where we sell our opportunity to work, sell it to the government for a pittance, to take away a man's greatest 468

May 1, 1972 Tape No . 177 NC - 2 pride, that of earnini,under the free enterprise system , his living for himself and his family. If we ever reach that stage, Mr. Speaker, and Ism afraid that sometimes we are headed too far and too fast in that direction, but if we ever reach that stage, Mr. Speaker, then I think that history will record that certainly confederation with Canada did no~ do for the people of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador what the gentleman of that day hope that that union ~ould bring about. Now I am quite certain that this will not happen becau se this government in its 469

May 1, 1972. Tape 178. Page 1. Gracious Speech from the Throne as I have said before has outlined a basic course of development, a course which will give opportunity to all of our people including the District of the honourable member from Labrador North. I believe that every district of this great province is entitled to eg.ual opportunity. I believe it is the job of each and every one of us who represent di~tricts in this House to make certain that we do to the best of our ability see that every district does in fact have equal opportunity. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I would like if I may to turn to my o~m district of Hermitage District which I have the honour to represent in this House. The District of Hermitage is basically a rural district. It encompasses three btys, Fortune Ray., Hermitage Bay, Ray D'Espoir. When I say encompasses, that is to say that there are corranunities in all three of thos~ bavs. The main source of income, the main,the economic base of the J)istrict of llermitage is involved wi.th our natural resources.

In the areas of Harbour Breton, Hermitage, and on the south western side of the bay, Hermit-age Bay, these are basically, fundamentally fishing communities.

The people in these areas have a long proud tradition of being basic workers - people who have down throu t h the years given a great deal to this Province, people who in the face of great hardships and for the most part minimal earnings have struggled with the Atlantic Ocean,have four.ht to maintain themselves and their families, have very little to show after years of such labour other than the satisfaction of a job well done and the fact that they have been able to maintain their families. Moving into the Bay D'Esnoir area, this area of course is concerned with the wood§.

The natural resources in that area are minimal in terms of timber. In the immediate area of Bay D'Espoir it will be necessary in the years ahead for the people of Bay D'Espoir to move farther afield in terms of the distance from Bay D' 'Espoir to attain the wood resource which will he so necessary for the development which must come. Bay D'Espoir had a great tradition of boat building, but in recent 470

May 1, 1972 Tape 178 Page 2 years when the Power Commission came into Bay D'Espoir and developed the water resources of that area, a great deal of the resources of the area immediately surroundini;1; Bay D"Espoir was flooded and that resource was lost to those people. 471

May 1, 1972, Tape 179, PAge l -- apb Now, Mr. Speaker, I am certain that the people of the Bay D''Espoir Area were not against progress, they were not against seeing the power development take place in the Bay D'Espoir Area, but when one lives in that area and sees the resource that was developed there taken away to help other areas of the province without any benefit accruing to the area from which it comes, then surely it is reasonable that these people should sit and ask; what about us? I believe, Mr.

Speaker, that there is a real responsibility on the part of the Government of Newfoundland to see that there is some compensation for the lost resources of the Bay D'Espoir Area. I believe that this will come. I have faith in the gracious Speech from the Throne, in its progral!U1le. I have faith, Pr. Speaker, in this present government to carry out the objectives as outlined in the Speech from the Throne and I believe that the people of the Bay D'Espoir Area will be in the years ahead compensated,through development of their area, for the resource which has been lost to them. Mr.

Speaker, right through the district, from the Harbour Breton Area on through to Francois, we have perhaps a combination of circumstances in several of the area. In the Harbour Breton Area and in the Galtois - the conununities of Harbour Breton and Galtois, the district is fortunate in having fish plant operations which are the basic suppliers of labour in these two communities. However, they are still one-industry communities and they have grown. The centralization programme has brought a number of people into Harbour Breton and there is an ever increasing demand for jobs.

It is fortunate, I think, that the centralization progranune was slowed down or drew to a close when it did, otherwise we may have had many communities around the coast of Newfoundland who would find themselves in the same position as Harbour Breton, where these people have come in and the compensating services in terms of available land, hospitals, or schools have not really kept pace with the demands for people and these co111munities have found themselves 472

Nay 1. 1972. Tape 179, Page 2 - apb over - burdened. 'Fortunately , howevin::, in the District of Hermitage there were a number of communities who decided that they did not wish r.o be centralized, moved to other areas to pursue their way of life. They decided. Hr. Speaker, and I believe rieht.l y so, thar. if a man wanes to live in a communit y, wants to pursue t he way of life that he has pursued and his forefathers before him, then that is t hat man1 s ri1bt. I believe that there are those,however, who would attempt to des troy t,hat which they do not understand. 473

May 1, 1972 Tape 180 PK - 1 MR. CHEESEMAN: Mr. Speaker, I believe that there is a great danger that this kind of thinking can be allowed to go on in Newfoundland. I believe that if these people want to remain in their fishing communities then they must be given every encouragement to do so. Certainly in many respects they live under hardships, they live in places where medical services are a term that is heard on the radio or heard on T.V.

Incidentally, in the District of Hermitage there are l'lany times when you cannot see it on T.V. or hear it on radio, because the services in that area are far below the standard enjoyed throughout most of our province. But nevertheless, ~r. Speaker, these people have elected to stay there in the communities of Francois, Parsons Harbour, Maccallum, Furby's Cove, the small isolated communities; these people a~e prepared to stay and work but they must receive some encour<j.gement from their government. They must know that they are recognized for the contribution which they made. Because, Mr.

Speaker, I for one am firmly convinced that if we were to carry , on with a centralization programme designed primarly to do away with our rural commu,, ities then, Mr. Speaker, there would not be a Newfoundland. I do not think that any man was ever elected and sent to this honourable House to represent a district and at the same time given a mandate to move the people and eliminate a lot of the communities in that district. I cannot believe and from my own travelling around the country certainly this is not the indication that I have had. In the Gracious Speech from the Throne I believe, Mr.

Speaker, is the t :--pe of encouragement that the people throughout rural and outport Newfoundland were waiting for. I believe they were waiting to be recognized. I believe that they were waiting for someone to come along and say you do in fact have the right to live in your own way, in your own communities, to pursue your own way of life and therein · 474

1".sy 1. 1<>72 Tape 180 PK - 2 MR. CHEE~EMAN: to find your happiness. ~ow, Mr. ~peaker , I do not helieve that the people of ~emi ta~e ex1)ect to have everythinA or the l'istrict of lle.rndtay.e expect to have everythini cured overnight . ! helieve that the people of the Pistrict of Hermita~o are patient people, but 1 believe at the same time that thev want to kno~ that the plannin~ of this government is ~oin~ forwa rd and l'IOViny. in !.uch a way that t hey too will henefi.t from the economy of the Province of Newfoundland and l.abrador. 'fR. NPARY: (Inaudi ble) . ~IR.

CIIF.E~E~'AN: The transportation servic es, Mr . Speaker, MR. ~ (lnaudihle) . MR . CHJmREMAN: The time is short and I do not have time for any interchan~e, Mr. ia:peaker. 1\ut l helieve tliere are some areas which will need serious looki<1p. at and 475

May 1, 1972 Tape No. 181 NC - 1 MR. CHEESEMAN: looking at in the District of Hermitage in the months and years ahead. The Canadian National Railways provides the basic transportation services through the area but these are not, I believe, adequate, Mr. Speaker, to the needs of the people. We get many requests on a continuing basis for a better 1 improved service :Lnd this is absolutely necessary for the district, for the growth, both the economic and social life of the district.

Roads or the lack of roads have for a ntnnber of years retarded the economic progress of the district but I am pleased that the work is continuing on the Bay d•Espoir - Harhour Breton Highway, With the completion of this highway during the coming summer, I believe that this will go a long ways toward breaking the economic bondage of that great District of Hermitage, However, roads in themselves are no answer. I believe that the opportunity for the people to live on a decent basis will have to go hand in hand with improved communications and transportation. I betieve, Mr.

Speaker, that a new works programme which we have heard about in the gracious Speech from the Throne, will be the encouragement needed in the Bay d'Espoir area and I believe that the policy designed to put pressure on those in charge,to make certain that our fishery resources are protected, will go a long ways towards bringing economic stability to the district. MR. MARSHALL: I wonder, Mr. Speaker, since it is near 6:00 o'clock, if the hon. Minister of Fisheries, would like to adjourn the debate. MR. CHEESEMAN: Well I can conclude if you wish. I would like to adjourn the debate. MR. MARSEALL: Mr.

Speaker, just before Your Honour leaves the Chair until 8:00 o'clock tonight, I think we have the procedural difficulty overcome and I think now that the hon. Leader of the Opposition and members of the opposition are receptive to the motion that the hon. Minister of Finance is about to make. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave of the House to give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave of the House to introduce a Bill, "An Act To Ratify And Confirm An Agreement Made Between The Government And Certain Companies Relating To The Linerboard Mill At Stephenville And To Provide For Certain 476

May l,' 1972 Tape No, 181 NC - 2 MR. CROSBIE: Matters Relating Thereto." MR. SPEAKER: It is now six o'clock and I do leave the Chair tmtil 8:00 o'clock tonight. 477

,, i ti Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st Session VERBATIM REPORT Monday, May 1, 1972 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number B

• • • •

May 1, 1972 Tape 182 The House resumed at 8:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the,Cbair, ~. SPEAKER: 'nte Chair recog~zes the honourabie Miµster ~or. the district of Herm~tage. HONOURABLE R.L, CIIF.ESEMAN (MINISTER OF FISHERIES)_: Mr. Speaker, I have,J believe, dealt at considerable length With the problem~ of the distTict of Hermita~e.

I would li~e to ~gain emph~s,ize t;:hat the South Coast of Newf~und;l.and_ ~s a 11tajor .contributor _to the over-·all good of the Pro,rip.ce · of Newfoundlan.d ~ There are ~ny qho will be very familiar wfth some of the large1;_ cotffl'llun~ti~s of the ' South Coast but I s1::1ggl!st ~lso, }fr.

Spe;,ilter t that tlt1;re are rnariy communities not so well k!lovn bt1t who nevertheless rn.ake the same contribution to our economy. lt is difficult ~o ~easure this contribution,for ma~y of the people in the 4istrict whci make their livelihood _through seasona,1 work in ~h~ w99ds and through the.:j.r fiahin~ effort cannot be classed as taxp~ycr~. Tpese ~en h~Y~ a strufl~le to make su~ficient money to mai~tain themselv~s ~nd their fanilies at ~nyt~in~ approaching a reason~ble standard of i1vi11.g. These people, Mr. Speaker, deserve cmr_ \Jnderstandi_ng and our help.

It is t_o them a_ means of livin~ at a decent wage. I believe that th~y are due the protection which th~ gracious Spee~~_from JM - l the Throne has outlined in terms of the prqtection of oilr fish stocks. • f Without this pr~tec_tion, Mr. Speaker., I suggest that we ma}' one day find ourselves in a position where no longer can these COJl'ffllunities stirvive. When that day arrive$ then I think Neufoundland will know for once and for all the true value of its outport communities. It is not welfare that the p·eople of the district o_f Hermitage ~ant, Mr.

Speaker, but a chance to walk into the seventies with head high and a feeling of cpnfidence in the future, a decent standa~d of living for our elder folk and a chance for our childrert,for inen and 478

May 1, 1972 Tape 182 (Night) JM - 2 MR. CHEESEMAN: women without hope or children without a future are as a rudderless boat driftinr' with the winds and the tide with no real hope of reaching a home poit. No' people, least of '311 the ~ood ~Coole of the District of Hermitage, shOuld be sUhiected to such \:1 life. Let i1s therefore, Mr. Speaker. resOlve to cure some of the ills which hilve surroUnded us in recent years. Let us resolve to restore Nmlfoundland- to its rightful Place in the ecohofflY of this country. Let us restore human dignity to all our peoPle.

The National Anthem of cOnada contains within its words the lines, •to' Canada we stand on r,uard for thee. - Can our people not expect the same, Mi-. ~peaker, by havinJ? the country for which Ye stand on ~uartl ~ive all its peonle equal onr;ortunitY. We in the district of Hert!litaRe stand -ready to do our nai-t to etlstlre a briJ?hter future for our -province arid our people. We stand teady to work hut We inust have the sympathy and help of our country and otlr r,rovinCe tci 'help uS do ~he job. Mr. Speaker.

I ha'Ve ?'ambled at ~reat length on th~ problems of our district but I bef:i.eve that a better knowled~e of the district is one me.ans by which some of our r,iohlemS will be o·vercome, ;he rest must rest with the· enerr,ies ·'and the dedica;:ion of those of us who have c:hoSen to serve. The gracious Speech frnm the Tht-one hns set the course. Let its contents he our r:uidirig light in the years ahead sO that tbe people of the district of tterm'it'.age as well as all ~?ewfnundlanders may en1oy a r,reater port'ion of thC good· things of this life.

MR.~ SPF.AKER: The Chair recognizes the honourable member for St • .John I s South. MR. R. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, it is indeed with considerahie pleasure and pride that I rise to take

part in this Throne Speech Debate as 479

May l, 1972 Tape 182 (Night) .MJl, !/ELLS_;_ the representative of St. John's South~ M.i.y I at this time, Sir, like my predecessor in the speech~ take the opportunity of congr.at1_1la~ing you on your appointment and I would also like to take the opportunity to conf!_ratula.t~ the honourable the Minister of Fisheries on his appointment today. Mr. Speaker, St. John's SouthJperha!)s more than most of th,e St • .John's _distri~ts, r~presents differing anrl vnr::f.ed parts of the life o_f Newfo~dland.

In the district the 'fishery is represented, the farming community is represented and also, of course, the city of St • .Tohl'l's. The only elements of; NewfolJtldland life that are not represented in that district Bre probably the mining CO!UJl1Unities and the forest~. In this speech, Mr. Speaker, rather than refer to generalities I would like to deal with some fairly spec_ific topics_, some r~laterl only to St. John's South but some topics of p,eneral application,.

But before I do that I must associate myself with the remJtrks made by the honourable the Minister of Fisheries in the part of his speech which took -place this afternoon because in that he said what I think outht to pe said by us, certainly hy us on this side of the Ilouse, that we belie_ve basically in the free t:mterprl~e system., We believe that it is the role of r,overnment to assist the free enterprise system and to assist individuals to work toward,and work is the word, Mr. Speaker, to wo,rk toward a better nnd more prosperous way of life.

I think I can say here now for myself, apart from any of mv colleagues, that_ certainly I do not feel that I was elected to push the cause of socialism or anythinr, like it and. that our duty and our .1ob, as I see it, is to help private enterprise do the job_ which it has done for a J!Teat many years and which I for one still b_elieve that it is capable of doinf? in a more complex society. The .1ob of 480 JM - 3

May l, 1972 Tape 1A2 (Night) JM - 4 MR,..'•1ELLS, ~overnment is to make silre that private enterprlse has the opportunity to d6 that iob and _i:o take stetis to see tha,t it is done and to help us to do so. Now, tJ:1ere also, of course I think the role of g~vernment and thP role of this House, Mr. Speaker, is to correct injustices which in a more complex society;as I describe this, are always and ever more to the fore. With re~ard to St.

John's South there are some specifiC points th.at I would like to make and they are also points of r,eneral application. l think it iS vitally important insofar as Petty Harbour i~ concerned that this province have a new and worth­ while fisheries developmerit' policy.

This is one of the reasons that I am personally so pleased at the appointment of our honourable colleagtle to the post of Minister of 'Fisheries because I believe that he has the knowledge an~ the background and the intelli~ence and the courage to work on ohr fisheries policies 'so that they can become sornethinf, more than they have been in recent years,because I firmly_ belieVe, Mr. Speaker, that the fisheries of Newfoundland have been neglected.

Now it wOuld be Unnecessary and uncalled for>for me to start talking in detail about the fisheries bUt suffi~e it to say that emphasis and ~renter emphasis has to b"e placed on the fisheries and I have every confidenc~ in this ~overnmerit in its ability to do that. With regard to fa,:,ning,Which industry ls carried on in the Goulds and Kilbride I think also that the proper emphasis has to be 11laced on farminp. in Newfoundland. It is tr~ie itl past years we have had emphasis on farminp, but I have doubted the r,enuineness of it, Mr.

Speaker. lt seems to me that certain aspects of farmin~ have been pUshed and others allowed to tag. In the Goulds and Kilbride there is consider~.hle -a·rable land a'nd 481

" • • May 1, 1972 Tape 182 (Ni~ht) JM - 5 !!Ji,.Jill_LLS : there is particularily a very active d~iry industry and I am told by members of that industry tha~ in the most recent year and in the year ,1ust passed 482

May 1, 1972 Tape no. 183 Page 1 - MRW (Night Session) Mr. Wells that the value of milk products sold to the various dairies approached $L5 r.tlllioµ. That is a very cotlsiderable industry, Mr. Spe_aker, which employs a fair number of people and "provides a product which we in this town, in Newfoundland, need. I am told by these farmers that the industry c'ould increase five-fold with the proper agricultur~l policy particularly a p~licy which makes land avail~ble.

In the Goulds and Kilbride area 1 thete are considerable and large areas of land which are not being utilized for farming, which are not being utilized for anything at the moment. I think the government 'have to inquire into this and this !louse if necessary has to inquire into it and formulate a land policy as part of~ policy of agricultural development so that an area can be set aside as an area suitable for agricultural development and the land policy devised that will make land available, lands which might otherwise lie fallow.

Now one of the difficulti~s with agricultural land is that .good agricultural land is also land which is convenient and good to build houses on~ probably better than goiOg into a wooded area - when I say better, I mean easier than going into a wooded area or a hillside or something like that. I think that a decision of policy has to be made somewh~re alon~ the line, Mr. Speaker, so that the agricultural l~nd that We have in this province is in fact, used for agriculture and set aside to be used for agriculture.

If people want to sell, there may well be a case for a land bank as part of an agricultural policy so that the p.overnment can buy such land when it comes up for sale and make it available to other farmers. If we do not have an agricultural policy which assists and determines the question of land use, then inexorably and quickly the land which is suitable for agriculture seems to me to be,, swa1loWed up in housing developments. Now as I say, it is easy land for housing develoPment but housing developments can be put elsewhere.

It seems to me that our agricultural potential is much greater than it has yet be.en Tealized and I think what agricultural land we have or land suitable for agriculture should be ascertained and something should be done along these lines to maKe sure that 483

Hay 1, 1972 Hr, Wells Tape no, 183 Page 2 it stays in agricultural production. In this matter of milk alone, $1.5 million worth of milk in a year is not an inconsiderabl'e boost to the ecoriamy of St. John's and Newfoundland. I think this could be taketi much fllrthEir than it has up to the present. It is in fisheries 'and agriculture I look forward and I am confident that this House and this government {Or this gov~rrnnent and this House, I should say) will devise policies and put them into effect which' will be of benefit to the people whom we represent. There is also another mabter concerning St.

John's South which I britlg to the" attention Of this House, not solely because it concerns St. John's Sou'th but it concerns some_thing which I thirik is esseµ.tial to g"ood government and that is (l think I referred to this the other day in some reinarks on the motion proposed by my hon. friend from Bell Island) where. I think this province in large measure has gone wrong in the way in Which it has spent the people's money, not necessarily the way but the mode of expenditure, the fact that value has not been obtained for the doilar. You may ask how does this refer to St. John's South.

I think we have a classic example, Mr. Speaker, in the Blackhead Road. The Blackhead Road is an area of St. John's, ill St. John·•s South and upon the Southside Hill, Everybody is familhr with it, There are approximately 2,000 People livirig there. Until three·~r fou:years ago, they lived there without even the barest minimal service.

It was decide'd by the government of the day that an urban renewal scheme should be put into effect there, that Services should be brought to these people and that the lan4 question shi>uld be straightened Out and something should be done to make it a wor.thwhile comunity,and a p-roject was undertaken. Up to that point, Mr. Sp~aker, th~t was fine but we have a very• very sorry mesa which has develc;tped on the Blackhead Road (There is no question about it) in which the money was spent wrongly or at least,if not spent wrongly, full value frOlD the dollar was not received from it.

Thiffgs were put in wrongly, as I think it will be found. It is obvious up there now that to some extent there was bad engineering or at least bad execution of the engineering that was called for. 484

May 1, 1972 Mr. Roberts Tape no, 183 Page 3 Consequently, Mr. Spe~r, the government,l presume this gove~ment, if the ~oney cannot be obtaineQ from Ottawa, is going to have t9 spend a l?rge sum of money merely to put right what has gone wrong a:qd what had been put into pla~e wrongly in that area. Do you realize, ijr. Speaker, and perhaps thiS House does not realize ~hat down over the :{llackhead Rqad, for instance, flows a ~ewer line nnd thRt sewer line, a ten or _twelve it1ch pipe was not buried below ground? It ts €!Xpoaed.

It sits up on little concrete pillars, a great JnBDY of which }1ave split to pieces in the frost of the past winter,, Du-ring ~hi? past w;inter, in the cold that froze solid. The pipe split great tears which, appeared in the pipe, sewerage _flowed ' out and now somebody is faced with 4 major cos_t of putting that bac~ there and~ hope putting it back in a fashion that it will not split ,ag~in next year, Now ~hat to me means one thing,that public monies have be~n wasted ~-n the origina,l execution of that project.

This i.s one of the other things tl'J,a_t we a+e con~~dent of on this side of tJ:ie Hou~e and :hat is basic to our way of thinking, Mr. Speaker, that the AOVepiment and this Hause have the duty to Spend public monie~ ip ? 'flay ;hat they are not wasted. I think the Blackhead Road is a good example of a. nlucc where problems have been created, a design and idea that was good in it:s inceptio11: but has been carried ou~ in a way that has left a vei::y soilt' taste in ,the mouths of the residents of the Blackhead Road and a great many problems.

The other thing I might comment on while speaking of the ~lackhead Road, Mr. Speaker, is this: That it is not eno~gh if you a~e going to go :hto a community and try to make it a worthwhi~e and viable community, i.t is not enough merely to straighten out the ~oads and pUt sewers in and water systems in. In a place like the Blackhead Road, some emphasis (This would be far less costly than the provision of services) has to be placed on the rehabiliation of houses.

Yau cannot go to a place where a great many houses~ in the Bla~khead Road there are Some excellent houses, some very poor houses that have to be demolished. But you have to have, a programme of 485

May l, 1972 Tape no. 183 ·Page 4 Mr. Roberts rehabilitation of houses along with the provision of services in ord.Br for a comUnity to be viable and· wO'rthwhile·. I niention that· as something which the government had to come to grips with as Well as this legacy of the past which it inherited and which is a 'problem of the first magnitude. Mr. Speaker, speaking of spending public money, I cannot speak in this speech without referring also to the at'te·rial road, the' Uarbollt' Arterial Road lt:- is called, arid some of the problems I feel are assoCiated with it,. It iS my belie~, Mi'.

Speaker, whether I be right or wrong,that no great planning went into the deCision to put that road from the Trans-Canada right dmm into the harbour or on· to the west end of New Gower Street. I rather stlspect, Mr. Speaker, that it was a C~se of the previous administration findirig out that money was available 486

Tape 184 (ni•ht) PK - 1 f,rom DREE and said,: nneie we can grab the necessary ~~pey, what will we do with it? L~t us put ;a road there.' I thinI:., lfr. :1p~aker, that i$ abOut alJ, the .planning t.h.1.t Has involve9 j.n th~t. I think that everyth1~r. th?t follQwed aftE!~~ds was nn attemp.t tQ just:f.fy a decision that w~s taken prql,~bly lilt:•· that on the ,pur of the tu-,:•ment.. The Rqya,i Commission R~port that followed ~PP the terms of refar~nce of this Royal Commission RepQrt t.ter~ very inter~fit~ng, tl!,ey 4id Pot.

Ray to the Royal Commissfc:,n,,; f1}1oµld the rgad hav.e come-down the t;"at~rford Vaj.ley at all? ~hoµld the road have gqn~ ~here in the first place? What uas th!! need fqr it.? These wer~ ci1,u~stiont11 whi_cti were not: ~~t,;ed, What war,; l!-Bkeci, f,'r .• Sp~,!:!~er.,, was ~his; of the three -routes that ,will end up on the westend of New Gower !=ttreet, which is the least obnoxious 1 The Royal Commission of course said the hills:f.de route.

This p.:overnment when it took ,1ffice, Mr. ~peaker, I think. t-!as faced with a terrible d:ilemma insofar as the arteri.al road was concerned. becaµse a great deal of thou~ht has to he ~iven to arterial roads. Other parts of this country, and when I speak of this country I mean Can~da, have ~ound that these roods rlo mare harm to a city than they do ~ood.

There may have well been other alternatives. nut when this r,overnment took office I su~gest,as a result of bad planning or no planning on the part of the previous administration, :lt found the situation where $10.5 million -had heen spent of puhlic funds and the road just came to an end out. th~re in Kilhriietpointed toward the City of ~t •• John's arid I suppose there is not much else could be done but carry on with it. And yet maybe even now, Mr. Spea}<er1 maybe even now a -second look may he worthwhile 1 I do not know.

Rut it seems to me that when you en,bark, as the previous administration did, on a programme of an arte.rial road such as this you immediately lock the city that is concerned into it. Because once 487

l.fay 1, 1972 Tape 184 (nipht) PK - 2 ::,tR. wm.L~! you hr-tnr; an arterial road like that into the City of ~t. John's. you cannot stop it. It is no good for anyone to s;iy. this road will stop on the west~nd of New Gower Street. The volume of trafffc that you are dumping into the city has to ~o somewhere. fio you are loclc.ed into the concept Mr. ~peaker 1 of huilding: or of cominr, on down thro~gh. the city I at God knot•rs what cost pf difficulty.

The other thing of course a.bout that is that you start when you build a massive structure like that, you start to move people nut of the c:t.ty because the very existence of such a road means the removal of house~, the removal of people and the very people who kept and are keeping the centre of St • .John's alive are the very neople that you move to the suburbs and there is a grave danger that the centre.of the city can die. But th~se are the thinRs that we inherlten, this government inherited, Hr.

Sneaker., from the previous administration and agiiin is an example of public money hein~ committed on a vast scale, I BUJ?;f!est without proper thought and planninr-~ It iR so sad and all,. the l'flore sad, Hr. :~pea1\er, t<•hen you consider the needs of 1-Jewf~mndlanrl, not just St. John's South, not just St. John's but so many parts c;,f Newfoundland where there is not a hit of pavement to dr.ive_ over, t-1here there is not a hit of decent road to drive over.

I c~n thi.nk of Fort Amherst in the Di.strict of St • .Tohn's .South, t1h~re in winter it is dan~erous to go out there because there is a drop on the side of the road which is unprotected or at least it was until very recently, ooprotected which,if it were slippery, you could go off the side and very easily have a serious accident. These sort of thinp:s d··., not seem to get and have not seemed to get in the past the hit of money by comparsion that they rieed to fix them up and make them Porthwhile

whereas vast projects are undertaken,it seems just because federal money is available and it is grabbed at without thought. This is somethinr, which I am confident and Jj,opeful, Mr. Speaker, that we can change and this government will ch~n~e in the future. The idea 488

·-ray 1, 1972 Tape 184 (night) PK - 3 ~fR. WFLLS; of the department of inter...governmental affairs, a department which will study federal programmes and help to take advantage of tbem in the mOst sensi.hle way, This seems to me to he a g~od beginning and a p_ood Place to gtart,so the ~~deral dollars when they come in here that f~rstly ·if they' are. available "they can be got int_o the province and sec.godly that they can t,e spent in a planned,: decent fashion that will be worthwhile to the Province of Newfoundland. I do not know, Mr.

Spf,:!aker, what the eXJ)erience of other honourahle rnembe;rs ;is, hut in my going arriulid the Pro-~ince of 0 Newfoundlandyin my ordinary travels professional work or poli\ics or anything else, the one complaint that I seem to }i_ear over and over again from individual citizen's i~ that public monies that come from the federal government) Canadian, federal,puhlic monies are spent in a wasteful fashion and spent in a way that does not do the maximu~ good for the communities in which they a~a used. Somehow, Mr •.

Speaker, somehow we in this House are gciinp,: to have to bend. the will of the federal p:overnment to spendtng monies more in keepinp, with the needs and desires of the community,, Now to leave that topic, Mr. Speaker, move to something else of ~eneral application. It has been a pleasure to me, as a member of this House for the first time, to see the hills introduced and ta be a part of the process -of passing legislation which we have seen this past few days. ~ome of the hills which have heen introdUced are merely housekeeping matters, others are mattel;'s of important and content.

There are two matters which I would like tO raise and I would iike to ask the government to consider and membet's of the House to consider ' " they are not bills before the House, hut they arf:? matters, Mr. Speaker, uhich I think oug_ht to be hrought before this House because I think there is a definite need for them and the cost factor is not part of its There are two - most jurisdictions in 'the English speakirtg world 489

May 1, 1972 Tape 184 (night) PK - 4 MR,. WELLS: certainly in the Commonwealth have what is ca;l.led in England "A Crown Proceeding Act1' ati.d what is called in Ottawa it A Crown Liability Actn and this means. Mr. Speaker, that if an individual,be it you or I or anyhody 1 has some legal dispute with p.;overnment that they are ahle to sue the government in the normal course of things .iust as vou or I would sue some other individual. If I run iri.to you in my car, you can sue me. Rut if a r,overnment 1s car runs into you, you cannot sue. What have yoo got to do?

You have J?Ot to find an ' indi.vidual, he he the driver or somebody like that 1 and pin the hlame on him and,in practice, Mr. ~peak.er, the f?Overnment have stood hehilld that individual. Now that is wrong and it can lead to injust1cP. To illustrate my point I will refer to one specific case which took place in an outport area of Newfoundland in the last two or three years, when a car was heinrt driven over a ,,rooden bridge and one' of the planks in the hridge was loose~ it· was not properly maintained.

As the car went over it the­ end of the plank came up underneath the car and just sort of lifted the car Tather faster than you could ninlr and a lady passenger in the car had an injury to her neck. All right, what did that woman do? She wanted to sue the government hut she could not because you cannot sue the government in newfoundland. !=:o a person had to be found to be sued because nohody knew who was negligent if anybody was,in the maintenance of that bridge. So an action had to be taken against the Minister of Highways.

Of course that is only a fiction because the Minister of Hi(?:hways did not know what this was all about and an action also had to be taken against the Superintendent of Highways because he was in charge of that particular area. But it was found, Mr. Speaker, that neither the superintendent nor the minister was directly responsible for maintaining that brid~e. There was some workman who was at fault. We would never find him, 490

Tape 184 (night) PK - 5 '-tR. WELLS; the individual concerned, we could never find that person. Ro the lat.1 officer;~ of the ct'owit.o(luite properly and actin~ on hehalf of the Crown in their legal ri~hts;t,;rent to cOurt after the action was (91

May 1, 1972 Tape No. 185 NC - 1 MR. W~LLS! started, took out the summons and said, "look you cannot prove that the Minister of Highways or the Superintendent. of Highways is .at fault here, it has to be thrown out, 11 and the case was thrown out, and ~hat woman, is today tmcompensated for her injury because we did not have a Crown Proceedings Act or a Crown Liability Act, as.many o~her provinces have, as Ottawa has, as England has, as practically every English speaking cpuntry has.

That is one of the things that I think ought to be rectified and ought to be rectified at the earliest oppo~tunity, Mr, Speaker, so that ordinary citizens,· if they get run into by .a government car, do not have to sue the individual d-river, they can go aµd quite properly under the Legislation; sue the government _ itself a~Q serv~ the writ on the Attorney General•: as the case mny be. This is som~thing. that hB.s been done in other jurisdictions and ,is long overdue here, Mr. Speak~r.

I would certainly urge upon the government that it give serious thought to bringing in legislation, there are plenty of patterns of such legislation 1 so that at least Newfoundlanders will not have to stiffer upder that particular kind of injustice. These are the things, Mr. Speaker, that were so long ignored and have been so long ignored in this province.

There is another matter which I would like to_ raise, another matter which is exclusively a provincial jurisdiction and I, in my own professional life, Mr • .Speaker,, have seen mar~ injustice arise out of this- that I am going to talk ebou~ than any other single thing. It is a matter of l