Alberta Hansard — 11 April 2005, Afternoon sitting (13:30) (Legislature 26, Session 1)

20050411

Alberta — Debates (Hansard)

April 11, 2005 Alberta Hansard 641 Legislative Assembly of Alberta Title: Monday, April 11, 2005 1:30 p.m. Date: 05/04/11 [The Speaker in the chair] head: Prayers The Speaker: Good afternoon. Let us pray. At the beginning of this week we ask for renewed strength in the awareness of our duty and privilege as members of the Legislature. We ask for the protection of this Assembly and also the province we are elected to serve. Amen. Hon. members, would you now participate in the singing of our national anthem. We’ll be led today by Mr. Paul Lorieau. Please participate in the language of your choice. Hon.

Members: O Canada, our home and native land! True patriot love in all thy sons command. With glowing hearts we see thee rise, The True North strong and free! From far and wide, O Canada, We stand on guard for thee. God keep our land glorious and free! O Canada, we stand on guard for thee. O Canada, we stand on guard for thee. The Speaker: Please be seated. head: Introduction of Visitors The Speaker: The hon. Minister of International and Intergovern- mental Relations. Mr. Stelmach: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’m pleased to introduce to you and through you to members of this Assembly Mr.

Jeffrey Parker, the Canadian consul general, based in Seattle, Washington, and appointed in September 2004. Mr. Parker and his team are responsible for the four-state region of Alaska, Oregon, Idaho, and Washington. These four states’ economies combined are equal to one-third of Canada’s entire domestic economy. They are important partners for Alberta trade, investment, technology, and tourism. Along with my fellow cabinet ministers and provincial government colleagues I had the pleasure of meeting with Mr. Parker today. We had a good, wide-ranging discussion.

I would ask that our honoured guest, seated in your gallery, rise and receive the traditional warm welcome of this Assembly. head: Introduction of Guests The Speaker: The hon. the Premier. Mr. Klein: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I had the pleasure of having lunch with two generous Calgarians today, and it’s now my honour to introduce them to you and through you to all members of the Legislature. Every year the Calgary Homeless Foundation raises money by making fun of me. This year its annual Premier’s roast was called Rootin Tootin Ralph, and part of the evening was a live auction.

The gentlemen here today were the successful bidders on lunch with the Premier. My guests are two members of the Calgary Homeless Founda- tion’s board of directors: Sam Kolias, president and CEO of Boardwalk rental properties, and David McIlveen, Boardwalk’s director of community development and social services. As an aside, Mr. Speaker, Boardwalk is one of few if any private-sector companies that offers rental subsidies to low-income people. I see that our special guests are already standing. I’d ask that they receive the warm welcome of the Assembly. The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Advanced Education. Mr.

Hancock: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Alberta has just designated two new occupations in apprenticeship and industry training: oil and gas transportation services and we ll testing services supervisors. These new designations mean that there will now be provincially recognized industry standards in these careers, giving people in these occupations a clear picture of the skills they need to succeed in these fields.

Today I am pleased to introduce to you and through you to the members of the Assembly a number of people who have made this possible, beginning with my congratulations to the first five recipients of certificates under the new well testing supervisor designation, and who are in the members’ gallery today. From Pure Energy we have Jason Tremblay and Mark Wohlgemuth, and from Lonkar Well Testing we have Kevin Peterson, Ryan White, and Allen Townsend. Also with us today to celebrate this success are a number of other guests who work hard to ensure that Alberta has the skilled workers it needs for the future.

Roger Soucy of the Petroleum Services Association of Canada is also in the members’ gallery today. Seated in the public gallery we have Brian Bickley, chair of the Alberta Apprenticeship and Industry Training Board; Cheryl Knight, from the Petroleum Human Resources Council of Canada; Elizabeth Aquin, from the Petroleum Services Association of Canada; and Kim Dingwall, from the Petroleum Industry Training Service. Finally, Mr.

Speaker, we have representatives from the two companies who are currently employing our first five certificate recipients: Ed Klein and Glenn Berry, from Lonkar Well Testing, and Scott Dancey, from Pure Energy. I would like them to please rise and receive the traditional warm welcome and in the case of our certificate recipients the congratulations of all members of this Assembly. Ms Calahasen: Mr. Speaker, today it gives me great pleasure to introduce to you and through you to members of this Assembly some very special students who come from a community called Wabasca- Desmarais.

They’ve travelled many, many miles. They’re from the Mistassiny school, 26 visitors, and are seated in both the public and the members’ galleries. They’re led by teacher Edgar Bailey as well as parent helpers Don Tessier, Jennifer MacDonald, and Alvina Cardinal. I’d ask that they stand and receive the warm welcome of this Assembly. The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Sustainable Resource Develop- ment. Mr. Coutts: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It gives me great pleasure today to introduce to you and through you 23 visitors to the Legisla- ture from the Rockyview Christian school in Pincher Creek.

I understand that maybe some of them are in the members’ gallery, and some of them are in the public gallery. These 23 folks are accompanied today by teachers Jeff Blosser and Lance Giesbrecht and parent helpers Galen and Gwen Toews, Jerry and Wendy Toews, Merle Unruh, Lavonne Blosser, and Karen Regehr, all from the beautiful, breathtaking constituency of Livingstone-Macleod. I would ask them to please rise and receive the traditional warm welcome of this Assembly.

Alberta Hansard April 11, 2005642 The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development. Mr. Horner: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It gives me great pleasure today to introduce 10 energetic and young-at-heart seniors from my church, Christ community church. We call them the Diamond Club because they sparkle with energy and enthusiasm. They are led today by Mrs. Shirley Wedman, who is the group leader. They are in the public gallery, and I would ask that they rise and receive the traditional warm welcome of the Legislature. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Battle River-Wainwright. Mr.

Griffiths: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It gives me great pleasure to rise today to introduce to you and through you to members of this Assembly 13 grade 6 students from Killam public school, who are the future of rural Alberta and this province. They are accompanied by their group leader, Ginette Dammann, and one of Alberta’s many fine, outstanding, and quality teachers, Karin Brussé, who wrote a proposal for an Access Network contest, which means that these students are all going to be in our fine capital city for a week. They’re seated in the public gallery.

I’d ask them to rise and receive the traditional warm welcome of this Assembly. 1:40 The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Castle Downs. Mr. Lukaszuk: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To you and through you I’d like to introduce to this Legislative Assembly a fine group of students from Dunluce elementary school. They’re accompanied today by three teachers, Irene Huk, Lori Whalen, and Krista Penno, and also a student teacher who is about to begin teaching, hopefully, next year, Mr. Cunningham. Along with them are two parents, Mrs. Morris and Miss Turpin.

Today their tour has been led by one of our employees from visitor services, who actually was my junior high school teacher perhaps some five, 10 years ago, Mr. Chuck Grelli. I’d like them to rise and receive the traditional welcome of this Assembly. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Highwood. Mr. Groeneveld: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is my pleasure to introduce to you and through you to members of this Assembly two individuals who are not only visiting the Assembly but are also visiting our country.

Nina Limacher and Baptiste PouBlang are two Rotary exchange students who have been going to school in High River since September 2004. Nina hails from Lucerne, Switzerland, and will be graduating from grade 12 this year. Baptiste is from Dunkirk, France, and is in grade 11. These two young people are accompanied by their Rotarian c ounsellor, Irv Cherneski, and his wife, Kaye. They are seated in the public gallery, and I would ask that they rise and receive the traditional warm welcome of this Assembly. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Manning. Mr. Backs: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I’d like to introduce to you and through you to all members of this Assembly three individuals. In the members’ gallery today we have Dorothy Pacquette. Dorothy is the first female pipefitter accepted to the United Association of Plumbers and Pipefitters in northern Alberta. Randy Beaudry is her beau and accompanied her on her recent trek from Fort McMurray, the long walk to protest the use of temporary foreign workers. Jack Hubler is a long-time leader in Alberta’s construction and pipeline industry and is with the United Association of Plumbers and Pipefitters.

In the building here today Dorothy was awarded a centennial medal for her efforts to act as a role model for young women in our province seeking apprenticeship, for young aboriginals, and for all her efforts over the many years she’s been working in the industry. I ask that they rise and that you all give the warm welcome of this Assembly to them. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Minister of International and Intergovern- mental Relations. Mr. Stelmach: Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I wish to introduce to you and through you to everyone in this Assembly a constituent of Fort Saskatchewan-Vegreville, seated in the members’ gallery, Mr. Glenn Hennig, who is also the manager of the Lakeland REA and who will be watching the proceedings of the House. I’d ask him to rise and receive the traditional warm welcome of this Assembly. My other introduction, Mr. Speaker, is a very distinguished Albertan, seated in your gallery, and through you I wish to introduce him to all members of this Assembly.

This guest played football for the Huskies for three years, became the general manager and recruited players from Rocky Mountain House, Ponoka, Camrose, Wetaskiwin. It was the team that was the Canadian champion for 1962, ’63, and ’64. No other junior team won three consecutive titles. On May 27 the whole team and this gentleman, Mr. Don Hamilton, will be inducted into the Alberta Sports Hall of Fame. I’d ask him to rise and receive the traditional warm welcome. The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Human Resources and Employ- ment. Mr. Cardinal: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

It’s my pleasure to introduce to you and through you to the members of the Assembly a young man from my constituency, Tr oy McDonald. Troy is seated in the members’ gallery. Troy is a smart young man. He’s a Tory. He said that he wants my job about 10 years from now. I’d like you to rise, Troy, and receive the traditional warm welcome of the Assembly. head: Oral Question Period The Speaker: First Official Opposition main question. The hon. Leader of the Official Opposition. Kelley Charlebois Consulting Ltd. Dr. Taft: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It’s not just in Quebec where governing parties channel money to their friends. The list of government contracts in Alberta going to friends of the PC Party with taxpayers getting nothing to show for it is long indeed. The former minister of health handed $400,000 of Albertans’ money to his friend Kelley Charlebois, yet not one page of work exists, not a memo, not a letter, apparently not even an e-mail. The Auditor General of Alberta, lacking the teeth of his federal counterpart, refuses to launch a special investigation.

To the Minister of Health and Wellness: can she tell us what Kelley Charlebois did for $400,000 of taxpayers’ money? Ms Evans: Mr. Speaker, the amount referenced was over a three- year period. There was advice provided to the minister. I know that there were appropriate receipts for the travel expenditures. This was

April 11, 2005 Alberta Hansard 643 discussed at Public Accounts, and at that time I made a commitment that the procedures were being followed. We are working very hard to make sure that staff are traine d in appropriate ways so that this won’t happen again. The Speaker: The hon. leader. Dr. Taft: Thanks, Mr. Speaker. Will this minister request that the Auditor General launch a full special investigation into what the $400,000 was used for? Ms Evans: No, Mr. Speaker.

The Auditor General has conducted his audit, and we have had a discussion about that in the context of a meeting with the executive committee, and I don’t know that any more needs to be said. He has in fact examined those books. He has spoken out at the time of Public Accounts, and I’m not sure what more we would uncover. The Speaker: The hon. leader. Dr. Taft: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the same minister: don’t the taxpayers of Alberta deserve to know what that $400,000 was spent on? Ms Evans: Mr. Speaker, my understanding is that that advice was provided to the minister.

There were several issues that the minister was facing. I am told that the advice related to things such as the changes in the regional health boundaries, among others. I don’t think more needs to be added. The Speaker: Second Official Opposition main question. The hon. Leader of the Official Opposition. Rod Love Consulting Inc. Dr. Taft: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As I said, the list of government contracts going to friends of the government, of the PC Party is long indeed.

This government sank over a million dollars into a study quarterbacked by a group led by the Premier’s friend and now chief of staff, Rod Love, only to learn, as many people predicted, that government money for a railroad to Fort McMurray is not justified. To the Premier: how many tax dollars of the 1 and a quarter million this government sank into this study went personally to the Premier’s chief of staff? Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, I don’t know, and I say that quite frankly. I really don’t know.

I do know that Rod Love was hired as a consultant, when he was in the c onsulting business, to advise the consortium on communications. As to the amount he was paid, I don’t know, but I’d be happy to find out. The Speaker: The hon. leader. Dr. Taft: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Exactly when and where – exactly – will the Premier make this information public? Mr. Klein: I don’t know where, and I don’t know when, but I can make this commitment. I will do it as soon as possible. The Speaker: The hon. leader. Dr. Taft: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Speaking of making things public, will the Premier instruct his chief of staff to make public the directives given to him by the Ethics Commissioner regarding his private lobbying business, as Mr. Love promised to do? Mr. Klein: I don’t have any problems, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: Third Official Opposition main question. The hon. Member for Calgary-Mountain View. 1:50 Oil Well Drilling on Crown Land Dr. Swann: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Last week during question period, when pressed about the development of well sites on disputed Lubicon land, the Energy minister candidly stated that oil companies who had already commenced construction “have not yet gone forward to the Energy and Utilities Board, which is a require- ment, but they will.” This is “standard procedure.” To the Energy minister: is it standard procedure for well site development and surface disturbance to proceed wit hout the prior approval of the EUB? Mr. Melchin: Mr.

Speaker, it is standard in the sense that they can move pipe and equipment onto a site prior to the application being granted. No work can then be undertaken. No application, no drilling can occur. That has to go before the EUB. Dr. Swann: Again to the same minister: how many leases are under construction across Alberta without the approval of the EUB? Mr. Melchin: Mr. Speaker, no licences go forth and there’s no drilling activity that occurs without the complete and thorough review by the Energy and Utilities Board.

They do an excellent job in respect to approving the 20 some odd thousand wells that are drilled annually in this province. Dr. Swann: Again to the same minister: will this government order Deep Well Oil & Gas and Welwyn Resources to halt any and all construction in the disputed areas until the appropriate consultations can occur and environmental permits and approvals considered? Mr. Melchin: That is part of the very normal procedure that the companies in that area are required to do. They have not com- menced any operations. They have not gone forward at this stage to ask for a licence.

That licence, when coming forward, is subject to public consultation. In this case I would like to point out, though, that even the site where the pipes were put on, that the Lubicon had mentioned, is actually miles away from the territory that is expected to be included in the Lubicon reserve. It’s even outside of that area. But that said, even with this public consultati on is a requirement in granting a licence. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Highlands- Norwood, followed by the hon. Member for West Yellowhead. Health Resource Centre Joint Replacements Mr. Mason: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

Last Friday, nine months after it was first announced, the Ministry of Health and Wellness reannounced a centralized intake registry for Edmonton, Red Deer, and Calgary and an additional $20 million to fund 1,200 more hip and knee replacements in the coming year. Long delayed but still welcome. But this Tory government couldn’t resist using this otherwise fine initiative to further its agenda of expanding private, for-profit health care delivery in this province. My question

Alberta Hansard April 11, 2005644 is to the Premier. Why has the government opted to pad the bottom line of its friends at the private, for-profit Health Resource Centre by paying them a premium of at least 10 per cent over and above the cost of doing the same surgeries at a public hospital? Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, the issue here is not so much how much; the issue is alleviating pain and suffering. The people who suffer from joint problems, whether they’re hips or knees or elbows or shoulders, suffer severe, crucial, excruciating pain.

We want to find ways to alleviate that pain and suffering, that the NDs would have go on and on and on for years simply because of ideology. Mr. Mason: It’s the pain and suffering of the taxpayers we’re worried about, Mr. Premier. How can the government cling to the claim that improved access justifies the higher cost of doing joint replacements at a private facility when the government’s own wait list registry shows that HRC has longer wait times than any of Calgary’s public hospitals? Talk about pain and suffering, Mr. Premier. Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, I don’t know, and I don’t believe that to be true.

I know that many more operations relative to joint problems are being performed because of HRC and its ability to contract with the Calgary regional health authority. Again, it comes down to alleviating pain and suffering. Mr. Mason: Mr. Speaker, given that the public system can deliver the services more cheaply and sooner, why is the Premier going on about pain and suffering when it’s the pain and suffering of the taxpayers he should be worried about? Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, I’m going to have the hon. Minister of Health and Wellness supplement.

But the simple fact is – and the hon. member knows it – you can’t build operating rooms just like that. You can’t build them overnight. Space is limited in the public system. That’s why . . . [interjections] Am I going to be allowed to answer, or are we going to have to put up with this nonsense from the other side? Mr. Speaker, I’ll have the hon. minister supplement that question. Ms Evans: Mr. Speaker, this is very good news, done in concert with 13 orthopedic surgeons, three health regions, very good news because this year we’ll accommodate 1, 200 more hip and joint replacements than last year.

Last year we had 5,300. The Speaker: The hon. Member for West Yellowhead, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Centre. Softwood Lumber Trade Dispute Mr. Strang: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. The forest industry has been paying duty and dumping for years now on softwood lumber exports to the United States, even though they have won negotiations with the World Trade Organization on the North American free trade agreement. Can the Minister of International and Intergovernmental Relations tell the House when Alberta’s forest industry will have a resolution on this trade dispute? Mr. Stelmach: Mr.

Speaker, according to the Alberta Forest Products Association, the figures they’ve given us indicate that the industry that we’re talking about is really Alberta’s third largest manufacturing exporter. We are working hand in hand with the industry and the federal government. We met a few months ago in Ottawa, we had meetings in Washington, and a group just recently met in Chicago. We share a common goal on both sides of the border and both governments, and that is trying to get free access and a durable solution to the lumber industry. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Strang: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

My first supple- mental question is to the Minister of Economic Development. With your value-added strategy do you also have a marketing strategy for other markets for softwood lumber to the world? Mr. Dunford: We have, Mr. Speaker. As a matter of fact, we are continually looking for new places to utilize the softwood products that we have. This past February we attended an aspen exhibition in Japan. The purpose of that exposition, of course, was to promote aspen for cabinetry and millwork applications such as doors, windows, panelling, that sort of thing.

Right now, we have a study under way, again, looking at opportunities closer to home. We expect the results some time in June, and the task of that study, of course, is to identify product opportunities for secondary manufac- turing. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Strang: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My second supplemental question is to the Minister of Finance. Since this is a disaster in the forest industry, would this qualify for funding under the sustainabil- ity fund? Mrs. McClellan: Well, Mr.

Speaker, the sustainability fund is there for unexpected situations that might occur throughout the year or could be natural disasters or if resource revenue dropped consider- ably. In order to trigger that, you’d have a disaster or an emergency declared. Cabinet would evaluate the information to see whether it applied or if, indeed, other options were available. One concern, of course, would be whether it would be considered by another country to be a subsidy and thus cause a problem with countervailing. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Centre, followed by the hon. Member for Vermilion-Lloydminster.

Hospital Space in Calgary Ms Blakeman: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The city of Calgary is woefully short of acute-care hospital beds, and even under the best case scenario the bed shortage will continue until 2010. Last week the minister of health talked about what the department is doing about the shortage, but I note that the work so far is best described as preliminary. My questions are to the minister of health.

When will the government approve and fund the plans it is now reviewing so that the Calgary health region can get on with the job of expand- ing the Rocky View, the Peter Lougheed, and the Foothills? 2:00 Ms Evans: Well, Mr. Speaker, the budget comes out on the 13th. We’ll be discussing the capital planning at that time. The Speaker: The hon. member. Ms Blakeman: Thank you. To the same minister: can the minister assure the people of Calgary that the department has a contingency plan for coping with any disaster or epidemic that might hit Calgary during the next five years?

Specifically, where will the sick and injured go?

April 11, 2005 Alberta Hansard 645 Ms Evans: Well, Mr. Speaker, throughout Alberta our regional health authorities work very hard to provide the due diligence. If there was any pandemic or disaster of a regional nature, I’m sure that they would look at all of their contingency plans for just those circumstances. Mr.

Speaker, what I’m finding somewhat amusing is that on the heels of the question across the aisle about the hip and joint work that we’re doing to try and accommodate other options with public dollars, there is concern now that we won’t have space in public hospitals that we have, and we’re trying every innovative approach to look at ways to facilitate the people that are sick and injured to get the best possible treatment. The Speaker: The hon. member. Ms Blakeman: Thank you.

Again to the same minister: could the minister please explain how her department allowed this chronic shortage of hospital space in Calgary to develop under its watch? Did you blow up all the hospitals? Ms Evans: Well, Mr. Speaker, today in Alberta we hold no apology for being the best-funded health care system in Canada, the very best. We are doing everything possible to be responsible in cost- effective patient delivery.

Where we’ve had rapid growth of Alberta, where the Alberta advantage has attracted many people, whom the Premier often reminds us don’t bring their hospitals and schools, we are coping as well as we can. Should there be an emergency, we would do our best to look after them in that contin- gency. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Vermilion-Lloydminster, followed by the hon. Member for Calgary-Varsity. Centennial Hockey Challenge Mr. Snelgrove: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

On March 17 it was announced by the commissioner of the Western Hockey League that a challenge hockey game will be played as part of a joint centennial celebration with the province of Saskatchewan. I’m sure that our solid team of right wingers will prevail over those Saskatchewan lefties, but my question is to the Minister of Community Develop- ment. Could he tell us how this unusual competition came about? Mr. Mar: Mr.

Speaker, the Western Hockey League is planning and organizing this game, which will take place on the 14th of April, and it will feature the Western Hockey League’s very best players playing on Team Alberta and Team Saskatchewan. It’ll be played in the border town of Lloydminster. The idea was conceived by the CBC in collaboration with the centennial offices of Alberta and Saskatchewan and the Western Hockey League. Fellow Albertan and well-known hockey authority Ron MacLean will be the emcee of the broadcast, that’ll take place in both Alberta and Saskatche- wan.

This event is going to be a day-long celebration of the hockey history of this province and the history of our provinces, and it’ll also be a prelude to the Allan Cup, which, of course, is emblematic of supremacy in senior hockey. Finally, Mr. Speaker, just to simply say this: hockey has helped shape our communities in Alberta and Saskatchewan. It’s a Canadian passion. It’s a way of life. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Snelgrove: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My only supplemental is also to the same minister.

Alt hough a trip to Lloydminster is normally priceless, how much money did the Alberta government put toward this event? Mr. Mar: Mr. Speaker, both centennial offices of the provinces of Saskatchewan and Alberta have each contributed $35,000 in support of this game. The game is sold out, and proceeds from the game will be distributed to the Western Hockey League’s education fund as well as Hockey Alberta, Saskatchewan Hockey Association, and the city of Lloydminster. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Varsity, followed by the hon. Member for Cypress-Medicine Hat. Private/Public Partnerships Mr.

Chase: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Alberta government is slow to learn from other governments’ mistakes. Although Sir Roger Douglas’s draconian New Zealand budget slashing was discredited, the Alberta government applied his philosophy with devastating effects to Alberta’s public institutions. The Alberta government also thought it could escape the costly California deregulation fiasco. It didn’t. My first question is to the Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation.

Given that P3s represent strike three in a list of previously im ported failures, will the minister abandon this private, for-profit, at public taxpayers’ expense scheme? Dr. Oberg: Well, Mr. Speaker, the first answer to that is obviously no. When it comes to P3s, they’re an important adjunct to what we do in Alberta. Certainly, each and every one of the P3 projects are looked at extensively. There has to be an advantage to Alberta. Quite simply, that’s why we don’t necessarily approve every one. It’s quite interesting.

The hon. member put out a press release last week and the interesting line that he put it out with is: Friends of Medicare is a “non-partisan [provincial] organization.” So I found that quite interesting in the press release. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Chase: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My second question is also to the same minister. With a projected royalty surplus revenue approaching $10 billion, would the minister explain the need to borrow money privately? Dr. Oberg: Mr. Speaker, we have not to this date borrowed money privately per se.

We do have a P3 project going on the Anthony Henday in Edmonton, and certainly the members of this Assembly have heard me talk numerous times about the advantages of what that P3 has done and more importantly what that P3 has done for Edmonton. The whole idea of actually getting a road two years early is certainly extremely important. The idea of the 30-year guarantee, so to speak, is also incredibly important for the citizens of Edmon- ton. Quite frankly, I find it quite shocking that the Liberal Party would talk against something that provides service to the city of Edmonton. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr.

Chase: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My third question is to the Minister of Health and Wellness. Given that Calgarians will have waited for over 12 years for the southeast replacement hospital to be built, will this government commit to public funding, transparent bids, and public administration of this much-needed resource?

Alberta Hansard April 11, 2005646 Ms Evans: Well, Mr. Speaker, I believe that that question is about the how to, which, in fact, would be the Minister of Infrastructure, please. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Cypress-Medicine Hat, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Manning. Alberta/U.S. Border Crossings Mr. Mitzel: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Alberta has three times the population of our neighbouring province Saskatchewan and does billions of dollars of export trade with the United States with twice the amount of truck traffic.

However, Alberta has five border crossings, with only one that is open for 24 hours, while Saskatche- wan has 13 crossings, with two being open for 24 hours. My question is to the Minister of Economic Development. Does the minister recognize how this arrangement is restricting the flow of goods and people into and out of Alberta? Mr. Dunford: Yes, I do, Mr. Speaker. If we look at it on the tourism side, for an example, when we use that wonderful interstate highway system in the United States, it’s pretty clear traffic from Detroit, Chicago through Minneapo lis.

As they move west on the interstate 94, when they enter the Montana border, if they want to stay on the interstate system, then they have to dip quite a ways south through Billings and then back up out through the western part of the state. If they were heading our way, they would have to perhaps come through Coutts, and it has added a tremendous amount to that particular journey.

Just think: if on the highway maps we could put and show a 24- hour border system at Wild Horse, all they have to do as they enter the Montana border is just make their way up to the number 2 in the United States and then, of course, onto 41, and I believe the rubber- tired traffic for tourism would increase exponentially. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Mitzel: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My only supplement is to the Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation.

What is he prepared to do to ensure that southeast Alberta will benefit from better border service by helping establish another 24-hour crossing at Wild Horse down in the southeast corner of Alberta? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Dr. Oberg: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Earlier on this year when I met with the Medicine Hat city council, it b ecame very apparent that this was one of their top priorities. Having a 24-hour border crossing at Wild Horse I think is absolutely essential.

I heard a lot of anecdotes about issues that they had getting to the border quite simply two or three minutes too late and being shut down and having to go back. So, Mr. Speaker, I entirely agree with the hon. member that this is incredibly important and, subsequently, have written letters to the immigration minister, the CIC minister, as well as my counterpart, the transportation minister. I think from a transportation and an economic route, Wild Horse is absolutely essential to southeast Alberta, and we all know the good things that happen in southeast Alberta.

The Speaker: The hon. member for Edmonton-Manning, followed by the hon. member for Edmonton-Beverly-Clareview. 2:10 Group Homes Mr. Backs: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’m pleased to rise on a constituency question. An unlicensed group home funded by the government recently opened for business in my constituency. It rented a house directly across from the entrance to an elementary school. A short time later a 46-year-old developmentally disabled man from the home exposed himself as the kids came to school.

The company shut the home in a week after some pressure, but at a public meeting last Thursday it was further reported that a child sex offender was also resident in the home. His chair in the picture window facing the entrance to the school is now empty, thank God. My question is to the Minister of Seniors and Community Supports. Are there provincial contract guidelines to ensure that all group home businesses have the sense to not rent homes for child sex offenders next to elementary schools? Mrs. Fritz: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I’m not familiar with the circum- stances surrounding this case, but, hon. member, I’d more than welcome the opportunity to discuss this further with you as it is in your constituency. Mr. Speaker, you know that we have a Persons with Developmen- tal Disabilities Provincial Board, and there are six regional boards. The funding is that there is a flow through of f unding through budgets, through our provincial budget, through the provincial board, to the regional boards.

The regional boards – I can tell you this, hon. member, whether this group home was licensed or not licensed – do have a policy called Creating Excellence Together, which sets standards for their service providers, and they work very hard to ensure that those policies are in place. But, as I said, I’m not familiar with this incident. Mr. Backs: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, to the same minister: where does this government draw the line between community safety and security for seniors and children and funding pl acement of dangerous and sexually deviant individuals in our communities? Mrs. Fritz: Well, Mr.

Speaker, that’s a very difficult question to answer, hon. member. As you know, we guarantee individuals who are persons with developmental disabilities that they are safe, that they are secure, that they’re treated with dignity and respect, and that we, through our provincial boards, our regional boards, have the funding that’s allocated. As I indicated to you, those service providers that have facilities within the community are governed through standards, through the creating of excellent standards. Also, we have through Children’s Services, Mr. Speaker,

an act, the Social Care Facilities Licensing Act, that would license group homes. I’m not familiar with this home, as this hon. member is indicating, so I’d be pleased to look into it. Mr. Backs: A supplementary to the same minister, Mr. Speaker: can the minister ensure that this government will make every effort to inform neighbouring parents and at least school principals and day home operators that homes for deviants are being placed nearby them? Mrs. Fritz: Well, Mr. Speaker, as I indicated, I would like to discuss this further with this hon. member.

Hon. member, I can tell you this, too, that neighbours will certainly voice their concerns to the appropriate ministry. I’m not sure in this case if it’s the Solicitor General or if it’s the Minister of Children’s Services or a combina- tion of all three ministries, but I would look into this further for you.

April 11, 2005 Alberta Hansard 647 The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Beverly-Clareview, followed by the hon. Member for Stony Plain. Horizon Oil Sands Project Mr. Martin: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Shortly before Christmas the provincial cabinet unilaterally invoked a rarely used provision of the Labour Relations Code called division 8. This was done for Horizon oil so that they could move ah ead in the tar sands.

Now, this provision opens to the door to dismantling collective agreements by using the nonunion Merit Contractors Association and the company- friendly Christian Labour Association [some applause] – well, we’ll see if they want to clap – to drive down wages and benefits in the oil sands. To the Premier: is it acceptable in a modern industrial society that purports to be democratic to cancel on a whim the collective bargaining rights of hard-working Alberta tradespeople, as has been done through the division 8 designation? Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, it was not done specifically for that reason.

It was done because CNRL Horizon desperately needed workers. We are very much aware of the situation relative to labour. We somewhat disagree that there are adequate tradespeople, skilled tradespeople, trained tradespeopl e in the province to fulfill the requirements of the companies. That is why that company asked that division 8 be proceeded with, so that they could get on with the job of hiring needed personnel to get their project on stream. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Martin: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In view of the fact that the unemployment rate across Canada is high in these areas, why is the government risking decades of la bour peace by bringing in or invoking such an odious and undemocratic part of this labour code? Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, relative to the unemployment rate – and I would like to address this – we have an unemployment rate in this province of 3.5 per cent. It’s the lowest it has been in 25 years. This is fact. In the oil and mining industry – and we’ll refer to mining as the operation used, ostensibly, in the oil sands – the unemployment rate is 2.6 per cent. Mr.

Speaker, this clearly indicates that there are more jobs being created than there are people to fill those jobs in that particular sector. Two point six in anyone’s language, even the NDs’ language, is virtually no unemployment because you take into account seniors and those who are unemployable, and they represent probably the 2.6. So virtually there is no unemployment in that sector, and we need to recruit skilled people from wherever we can. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Martin: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Well, the seniors will be interested to know that they’re in the unemployment rates.

My question is simply this: given that this could lead to a major confrontation with the building trades after years and years of labour peace, does the Premier not see that this heavy-handed approach by his government could actually hinder development in the tar sands? Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, to qualify, I meant retired seniors, seniors who no longer wish to work and have fulfilled their duty to society. Mr. Speaker, again, I would remind the hon. member that Alberta has the hottest economy in the country and an extremely heightened demand for thousands, literally thousands, of workers.

Speak to any employer – any employer – in the oil sands, and they will tell you there are labour shortages. There are extreme shortages of skilled people, and at peak times there are simply not enough Albertans and Canadians to fill the jobs. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Stony Plain, followed by the hon. Member for St. Albert. Regulated Rate Option for Electricity Mr. Lindsay: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Small residential electrical customers, farmers, and small businesses are currently not required to go shopping for a power provider. In July of 2006, however, that may have to change.

The regulated rate option, considering the lack of competition, is definitely the preferred method of choosing a power provider. My first question is to the Minister of Energy. Will your department consider extending the July 6 expiry date for the regulated rate option? 2:20 The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Melchin: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The regulated rate option, as anticipated, was planned to go till June of 2006, and as such we have been reviewing the options of going forward past June 2006. It’s important that those things are set in place well in advance.

Our department has been reviewing both the wholesale and retail markets to ensure that we have the best options for all residential and small commercial, and in that light those options will be reviewed over the next few months. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Lindsay: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My first supplemental to the same minister: given that contracts offered to these consumers to date are not as attractive as the regulated rate option, can you tell us how many Albertans have signed an electrical contract in the past year? Mr. Melchin: Mr.

Speaker, one of the main reasons why the long- term contracts aren’t yet as attractive as the regulated rate option is not unlike your mortgage, where your long-term interest rate is higher. There’s a premium for a long-term, stable, predictable, guaranteed rate versus the short-term rate. But in that light there’s been very good progress being made by the retailers to all residential and small commercial. Many are starting to sign on, though it’s early on. Only about 7 per cent of residential consumers have signed long-term contracts at this stage, about 37 per cent of the small commercial market. Mr.

Lindsay: Again to the same minister: if the regulated rate option is not extended and consid ering the lack of competition among retailers, how can these consumers be assured that they will be able to negotiate a fair contract for their electrical service? Mr. Melchin: Mr. Speaker, under all models, even if the regulated rate option continued or did not, if there was a flow-through rate as one of the options, customers are not required to actually negotiate or sign a contract with a retailer.

There is and will continue to be a default provision so that they won’t be compelled to sign a contract if that’s not their wish. The Speaker: The hon. Member for St. Albert, followed by the hon. Member for Highwood.

Alberta Hansard April 11, 2005648 Provincial Achievement Tests Mr. Flaherty: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Standardized testing for every student in grades 3, 6, and 9 and now imposed on supposedly underachieving grade 4 students is costly and bureaucratic. It is also unnecessarily stressful on students, encourages invalid conclusions on the effectiveness of teachers and sc hools, and reinforces an outmoded, narrow view of teaching and learning.

My question to the Minister of Education: when will the minister begin consulting with teachers to reform these exams so that the full range of student aptitudes and creative abilities is properly encouraged and recog- nized by this government? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Zwozdesky: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I, in fact, began talking with teachers about this last year. Those discussions have continued, albeit on an informal sort of basis.

Nonetheless, the member does raise an interesting question about students who did not fare too well in the grade 3 provincial achievement test and will therefore not be retested until the grade 6 provincial achievement test comes around. So in the interim it was thought advisable to perhaps introduce a provincial achievement test at the grade 4 level. We’re just evaluating the implications and results of that particular program of testing to see if it’s one that should be continued or if perhaps more diagnostic testing should come in in its pl ace. I’ll have some answers very shortly on that. Mr.

Flaherty: Will the minister commit today to abandon his plan to retest underperforming grade 3 students, students that began grade 4, particularly given that the government has no serious plan to provide these students with remedial help? Mr. Zwozdesky: Well, Mr. Speaker, there are all kinds of help available. The question really is identifying what the particular students’ needs are in terms of literacy, numeracy, and basic problem-solving skills. Obviously, some students do better at those particular skills than others.

Those who have demonstrated the need for more help are getting some of that, and through the diagnostic testing approach that I just indicated, perhaps we could take a look at it over a longer period of time to help students really achieve to the maximum of their abilities. That’s what we’re committed to doing. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Flaherty: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Given that the students’ aptitudes and abilities need to be assessed much earlier in the educational years, will the mini ster examine the possibility of introducing a screening process in the first year of a child’s educa- tion with a commitment to fund the focused remedial programs, formally developed, that the child needs to succeed in school? Mr. Zwozdesky: Mr. Speaker, one of the issues that we’re studying very closely and have been for some time is the whole issue of children at risk.

Now, we have significant programs with tens of millions of dollars going to help address students who have learning difficulties. That is not to say that we should be replacing the home environment. Those students coming from home environments where perhaps they have the benefit of more nurturing, caring, loving environments seem to do fairly well, but those who are so- called at risk – and there are a variety of circumstances we could describe here as to what we mean by at risk – are the ones that we are trying to zoom in on and help the most.

In fact, that’s part of our class size reduction initiative and one of the reasons why we just rolled out 89 million new dollars in class size reduction funding this past year. I’m optimistic that on Wednesday perhaps we’ll see some of that good news continued. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Highwood, followed by the hon. Member for Calgary-Currie. Integrated Land Management Mr. Groeneveld: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Sustainable Resource Development.

Alberta’s growth has led to a steady increase in public land use by the oil and gas and forest industries, tourism, and people enjoying the great outdoors. What is the government doing to respond to these increasing land- use pressures on our landscape so that there’s not a free-for-all? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Coutts: Well, Mr. Speaker, thank you.

This is a very good question in view of the fact that in Alberta approximately 60 per cent of the land is public land, and of course wise use of that land continues to be a priority for the government, particularly because of our growing population and the demands on the land. That’s why the government has committed itself to a provincial land-use framework that is consistent with the throne speech and our 20-year plan. I’m currently working, Mr.

Speaker, with other colleagues and other ministries to determine what that framework will look like, and the goal is to create a sustainable land legacy where Albertans can continue to live on the land, labour on the land, and leisure on the land. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Groeneveld: Thank you. Again to the Minister of Sustainable Resource Development: is the Alberta government talking to Albertans about its approach to access management on public land? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Coutts: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. That’s an important compo- nent.

Not only do we have to talk to our colleagues, but we also have to talk to our stakeholders, including industry, on our approach to access to the land. We must involve the public in informing them of our shared values and our stewardship of the land as well. One of the ways that we can do this is to encourage education and outreach and, particularly, to let people know about something that comes through SRD, our respect the land program.

We want to build on the previous successes with land access and land manage- ment that we’ve had in the past, and we’d like to make sure that we have achieved local participation, like we did in the Bighorn backcountry area, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Groeneveld: To the Minister of Energy. Mr. Speaker, every- one knows that the energy sector is booming in Alberta. Can the Minister of Energy please tell the House what his department is doing to supplement integrated land management? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Melchin: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We all know that the

April 11, 2005 Alberta Hansard 649 activity is very substantial in th is province, not just what we’ve heard about the oil sands but throughout the province: natural gas and coal, coal development itself, conventional oil and gas. All of the industry supports very much a very sustainable life cycle, environmental stewardship of the land. It is very important when we develop that we can return the lands to their original state. It is important also to see that we can disturb the land for temporary times but also return it to a very original state of environment. Thanks, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: The hon.

Member for Calgary-Currie, followed by the hon. Member for Peace River. Affordability of Postsecondary Education Mr. Taylor: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Each time this Conservative government conducts an afford ability study or reviews its tu ition policy, it ends up further entrench ing its ideology of user-pay. Those determined to watch the forthcoming international infomercial on the third way would do well to take note. Equitable access to public services, as it turns out, is a slippery concept.

To the Minister of Advanced Education: will the minister assure Alberta students and their parents that the forthcoming affordability review will result in every qualified student, regardless of their background, being able to afford to go to the program of their choice? 2:30 Mr. Hancock: Well, Mr. Speaker, I have made it perfectly clear that as Minister of Advanced Education and with the support of this government we believe that finances should not be a barrier to any student getting an education. I think that answers the hon. member’s question. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Taylor: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

To the same minister: if this government is truly committed to equal access to educational opportunities, why has the money available to students from the Alberta student loan program not kept pace with the dramatic tuition increases we’ve seen over the last dozen years? Mr. Hancock: Well, Mr. Speaker, we provide student loans on a demand basis. In calculating the amount that’s given out on a student’s loan, it takes into account the tuition fee for the programs that the student is accessing. It puts forward a budget with respect to the cost of living. Those are adjusted on an annual basis.

So to the best of my knowledge the student loan program does take into account the tuition fees that students have to pay. Mr. Taylor: Interesting, Mr. Speaker. To the same minister: if the loan program, then, really does provide students with the dollars they need, why did students at the U of A through their students’ union this year alone need to provide over $1.1 million in financial aid to their fellow students precisely because they had needs not being met by the Alberta student loans program? Mr. Hancock: Mr.

Speaker, the hon. member is misdirecting rather badly by suggesting that because there are other forms of student finance such as bursaries or loans or scholarships or any other form, including loans or grants that may be available from a students’ union, that means that the Students Finance Board is not doing its job. We have the best student finance program in the country in this province. I served on that Students Finance Board, as did a member of the opposition caucus, and we served well together in making sure that the Students Finance Board served Alberta students well.

The Students Finance Board has reviewed programs on an ongoing basis and continues to do that. The affordability review will make sure that as we go into the future, finance is not a barrier to a student getting an education in this province. There will always be a role for supplementary finance and supplementary assistance to students on an emergency basis. Most of the funds, as I understand it, that the students’ union provides to students are funds that are needed by students on an emergency basis.

That will happen from time to time, and there will always be other opportunities for students to help each other support their programs and support them financially. But the student finance system that we have in this province is a great system, and it will become greater. The Speaker: The hon. Member for P eace River, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar. Electricity Transmission Line Capacity Mr. Oberle: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Throughout the province a construction boom in electrical generation is occurring.

In the past four years close to 3,000 megawatts have been added to the grid, and many great projects, including wind generation and other green power projects, are about to be announced. My question is to the Minister of Energy. Given that these projects are boosting our province’s power supply, can the minister tell us if our present transmission system can handle all of the power being generated? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Melchin: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to assure all Albertans that our transmission lines and system can handle the power and the growth.

That is also why we are looking long term into making sure that it can continue to sustain that growth. We are fortunate to have that challenge in Alberta with all of the growth in load and consumers in this economy providing that challenge, but we are also looking further into th e future to ensure that it will be reliable for decades and centuries to come. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Oberle: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and thank you to the minister. To the same minister: does his department intend to create a formal long-range plan to address potential transmission shortfalls? Mr. Melchin: Mr.

Speaker, in respect to the long-term plan, the independent system operator has already developed a 10-year plan for transmission. There are some applications before the Energy and Utilities Board at this stage in light of that 10-year plan. Those are very instrumental to ensuring that that reliability is there. The independent system operator is also currently working on developing a 20-year plan. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Oberle: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Again to the same minister: can the minister tell us if an upgrade to the transmission system between British Columbia and Alberta or even in Montana and British Columbia could benefit Alberta’s small consumers? Mr. Melchin: Mr. Speaker, adding transmission capacity and tie-

Alberta Hansard April 11, 2005650 lines – we already have one with British Columbia, a very small one with Saskatchewan, and there are other projects being announced or contemplated at this stage with tie-lines through to Montana – adds, really, another generator at another end. That’s really all that it’s doing: adding another source of reliable power that can be brought into our system in times of need. If there are any capacity con- straints of a generator going down, it would just provide us greater reliability for our own consumers here in Alberta. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar.

Electricity Exports Mr. MacDonald: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Last week Calpine Energy applied for authorization to export up to 250 megawatts of electricity generated in Alberta to the United States. Increasing electricity exports from Alberta means that others will benefit while the only things Albertans will get are higher power prices and even more and more air pollution. My first question is to the Minister of Energy.

Why does this Progressive Conservative government continue to encourage electricity exports from Alberta to the United States when it will only lead to higher and more volatile power prices here in Alberta? Mr. Melchin: Mr. Speaker, I think there are some assumptions in there that are entirely false. It would only increase the reliability of our system to have more opportunity to bring power into this province when it’s needed for what we need. Furthermore, we’ve never taken the view that we should be an island unto ourselves.

There are opportunities to supply good, reliable source power to our neighbours and friends in the neighbouring provinces or even to the United States. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. MacDonald: Thank you. Again to the same minister: given that Powerex and Enron made a good job of importing electricity into this province, how and why can we allow electricity exports when Alberta’s own electricity regulator has stated that electricity demand will exceed supply by 2006? Again, why is this government adding to the problem by encouraging electricity exports to the United States? Mr. Melchin: Mr.

Speaker, we won’t be lacking supply by 2006. Those aren’t the forecasts. Furthermore, increasing transmission tie- lines, be it through British Columbia, be it through Saskatchewan, be it through the United States, will only increase the reliability and supply of power and reduce the volatility in price spikes that come by having a shortage of supply in any one market. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. MacDonald: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Again to the same minister: how can the hon. minister assure Alberta consumers that the $1.5 billi on that they’ll pay to enhance the backbone transmis- sion system is not simply prebuilding for electricity exports, where they will receive no economic benefit? Mr. Melchin: Mr. Speaker, the $1.5 billion referenced in transmis- sion is part of the independent system operator’s 10-year review of transmission needs in this province. They do form part of the backbone.

It is very important that we do have reliable transmission lines to get the power to the customers when it’s needed at the appropriate time, and customers have always borne and paid for that cost to ensure that they have reliable power. It’s the best thing that we could do. The Speaker: Hon. members, in a few seconds from now I’ll call upon the first of six members to participate under Members’ Statements today, but in the interim might we revert briefly to Introduction of Guests? [Unanimous consent granted] head: Introduction of Guests (reversion) The Speaker: The hon. Member for Lac La Biche-St. Paul. Mr.

Danyluk: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. It is indeed an honour for me today to intr oduce to you and through you to all members of this Assembly a very distinguished individual who is the chair of the region 7 health authority’s board. Region 7 is a model for the rest of the province and very much leads by example. If I could please ask the Assembly to acknowledge Mr. Don Schultz. head: Members’ Statements Team Ferbey Mr. Ducharme: Mr. Speaker, it is with great pleasure that I rise to recognize a very fabulous Alberta team.

Yesterday Team Ferbey did Canada, Alberta, and Edmonton proud by winning their third world championship as a team. The win gave Randy his fourth world championship. 2:40 This year’s Ford world championship of curling is being heralded as the greatest curling competition ever held, this win providing a fitting conclusion to what has been an outstanding season for curling’s greatest team. Yesterday’s win was even sweeter given that the past week had not been easy for Randy and the boys. At times they struggled, leaving themselves facing possible elimination in each of their last six games.

Undaunted by adversity, Team Ferbey saved their best for last, curling 90 per cent as a team, easily defeating a stunned Scottish squad. When the going gets tough, the tough get going. This year the Ferbey foursome played 148 games, winning nearly 80 per cent of the time. During the provincial, national, and world championships Team Ferbey amassed a record of 30 wins and five losses. This team has all the talent in the world. Randy Ferbey calls an outstanding game, Scott Pfeifer and Marcel Rocque are the best sweepers ever seen, and Dave Nedohin makes shots that other curlers are afraid to play look routine.

However, you cannot be successful on skill alone. Mr. Speaker, every team relies on their sponsors to help support them. Team Ferbey is blessed to have many wonderful sponsors. I am especially proud of Denmar Energy Services Ltd. of Bonnyville and owners Roger Fortier and Garry Lapointe. Roger and Garry have contrib- uted to the success of the Ferbey foursome through sponsoring the team over the past four years. Both Denmar Energy Services Ltd. and Team Ferbey are Alberta success stories, and together they showcase all that is good about Alberta.

After a well-deserved summer break, Randy Ferbey and company will be headed for Halifax in quest of a spot on Canada’s Olympic team en route to Torino, Italy, in 2006. I know that all the members of this Assembly will join me in congratulating Randy Ferbey, Dave Nedohin, Scott Pfeifer, Marcel

April 11, 2005 Alberta Hansard 651 Rocque, Dan Holowaychuk, and coach Brian Moore on their win yesterday. Congratulations, and good luck in Halifax. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Fort. Value of Education Mr. Cao: Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker. Over 2,500 years ago Confucius taught the rulers of ancient China: “To make a society prosperous, give it edu cation.” Society is still going strong today.

In our modern times, reflecting on the importance of learning, the naturalist Charles Darwin said, “It’s not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.” I read a recent research report on the value of education by Stanford University. With global evidence it shows that education contributes to national productivity as well as to individual earnings and quality of life. Countries with strong institutions and infrastruc- ture and effective governments arrange to provide their citizens with substantial amounts of education.

The accumulation of human capital is one of the three important benefits that flow from good education infrastructure. The others are the accumulation of plant and equipment and the development of efficient production. This research also shows that the countries of the world having achieved high levels of education for the average person have done so in varying combinations of self-reliance, government subsidy, and direct provision of education. One of the few favourable characteris- tics of the discredited socialist governments of eastern Europe was the provision of high levels of education.

As the relative cost of education continues to rise in relation to other goods and services, the pressure of financing high levels of education is increasing. Education is important. Learning and teaching are integral parts of education. As Alberta has many excellent student learners, we also have excellent teachers. I want to thank and congratulate teachers who are among the nominees and finalists for the Alberta 2005 excellence in teaching awards. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Currie. Pride Rainbow Project Mr. Taylor: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Pride Rainbow project was conceived in the fall of 2003 by four youth of the Unitarian Church of Calgary. The aim of the project was and is to show support for same-sex marriage in Canada and elsewhere. The physical manifestation of this support is found in a perpetu- ally growing fabric banner approximately five feet wide. Frequent sewing bees undertaken by a diverse and expanding number of dedicated volunteers have increased the length of the banner dramatically, from a mere six feet in the summer of 2004 to its most recent official measurement of 468 feet, 11 inches.

The goal is to make it eventually 3.2 kilometres, or two miles, long in order to break the current record of one and a quarter miles set by a group in Florida. The banner, as the project name implies, contains the six colours of the Pride flag: red, orange, yellow, green, blue, and purple. This past Saturday the Pride Rainbow project celebrated the laudable milestone of its banner reaching 500 feet in length at a party in Calgary’s Winston Heights, Mountview community hall.

In addition to the guest of honour, the 500-foot-long pride banner itself, the event featured a number of speakers, booths, and displays dedicated to promoting tolerance and diversity in the province of Alberta. The Alberta Liberal opposition applauds the participants in the Pride Rainbow project on their convictions and their perseverance and stands with them in support.

The Alberta Liberal opposition understands that same-sex couples who seek to get married, far from undermining the mainstream of society, are in fact asking us all to let them join the larger community as full participants with all the responsibilities as well as the rights that attach thereto. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Peace River. Progressive Conservative Convention Mr. Oberle: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

This past weekend people interested in participating in and shaping the political future of our province travelled from across Alberta to attend the Progressive Conservative Association annual general meeting. It was one of the largest of such gatherings ever held, with over 1,500 registered delegates representing a diversity of ages, professions, and interests. It’s my distinct honour, Mr. Speaker, to point out that the rural constituency sending the most delegates to the convention was also the constituency farthest away from Edmonton.

Yes, my constitu- ency of Peace River registered 54 delegates to the convention. We sent delegates from the town of Peace River in the south, from High Level in the north, Rainbow Lake in the west, and Fort Vermilion and La Crête in the east. Some of the delegates travelled close to a thousand kilometres to be here, and I want to express my intense pride for being able to represent such committed and dedicated constituents. Mr.

Speaker, I particularly want to recognize the extraordinary efforts of Gary Friedel, our former MLA, Sylvia Kennedy, our constituency association president, John Watt, the mayor of Rainbow Lake, Ray and Al Toews from Fort Vermilion, Robin Erickson and Amy Murphyfrom Peace River, and all the delegates from La Crête that so honourably represented their community. I would also like to extend my personal thanks and my congratulations to all of the delegates. Maybe we didn’t exactly put the Peace River constituency on the map, Mr.

Speaker – I think it was already there – but we sure highlighted it and were very proud to do so. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Strathcona. Team Ferbey Mr. Lougheed: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise today to congratu- late the Ferbey foursome on winning their third world championship in the past five years. I’d also like to congratulate them on winning the 22nd world championship for Canada since 1968. Ferbey’s team was the talk of the Sherwood Park trade show this past weekend as three of the four members reside in Sherwood Park.

Skip Randy Ferbey and second Scott Pfeifer both live in my constituency of Strathcona, and David Nedohin, the team’s third, lives in the neighbouring constituency of Sherwood Park. The lead, Marcel Rocque, currently lives in Edmonton but grew up in Sherwood Park and was a graduate of Archbishop Jordan high school. Sherwood Park resident Ed Thomlinson, possibly the Ferbey rink’s number one fan, was so confident of their victory after the Brier that he suggested there would be plenty of opportunity to recognize the team after they won the world championship.

But Ed and many fans around Strathcona county were a little worried about their chances when they lost three of their first seven games. In order for the Ferbey rink to dig themselves out of the hole they were

Alberta Hansard April 11, 2005652 in, they had to win eight straight games in order to take home the championship. The Ferbey rink did exactly what all Albertans do and what all people from Strathcona county do: dug deep, worked hard, and never gave up. They won the rest of their round robin games, won the tie-breaking game, won the three-four playoff game, the semifinal, and took it to the rink from Scotland in the final, winning 11 to 4. Mr. Speaker, the Ferbey rink had two five-enders in the final game. Never in the history of the world championship has a five- ender been scored, let alone two of them.

In fact, the Ferbey rink has never before scored two of them in the same game. They certainly knew when to turn it on. I would like to congratulate the entire Ferbey rink for an outstand- ing Brier victory and for a memorable world championship win. I’d particularly like to congratulate my constituents, Randy Ferbey and Scott Pfeifer. This weekend’s win gives Randy his fourth world championship and his third as skip of this team. Only two other skips have led their teams to three world championships, and I believe Ferbey’s rink is the fi rst to do so with the same four members.

Marcel Rocque, Scott Pfeifer, Dave Nedohin, and Randy Ferbey are truly fine Albertans. Join me in congratulating the members of this team, please. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Manning. 2:50 Dorothy Pacquette Mr. Backs: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’m pleased to rise here today to speak just a few minutes on the importance of Dorothy Pacquette’s journey from Fort McMurray. Her trek took almost two weeks. She arrived in Edmonton on Saturday and was greeted by hundreds of people here at the front of the Legislature while many of the people across the way were at their convention.

What she was trying to underline are the issues of aboriginal training, the issues of training the youth in our province, and the accessibility of other Canadians to the important jobs in the tar sands. The oil sands and the issues of labour availability, training, and infrastructure have been important issues in our body politic as we work through the biggest construction boom in Canadian history. We have had an awful lot of studies on the demand for workers. We’ve had an awful lot of press and media on these studies, and all the rest of it, but we’ve had very little and very rarely studies on supply.

These studies on demand come from many associations. Some of them have been very good and add to the knowledge in the area very well. But, for example, to go on a survey of all the associations that hire tradesmen for the oil sands is comparable to surveying all the grade 2 students and asking them how much candy they want in three months. Well, you might get the answer that there’s never enough. The supply side, however – and we see some great problems in the supply side in that it doesn’t lend itself so much to the same types of studies.

There are hiring halls, there’s word of mouth, there’s the foreman calling the crews that have been out of work. That’s the way the industry works. It doesn’t work very much through want ads. It doesn’t work very much through these types of things that are being measured and sometimes reported, and that is why it’s difficult to use these . . . [Mr. Backs’ speaking time expired] I’m through already? Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker. Speaker’s Ruling Brevity in Members’ Statements The Speaker: Hon. members, might I thank the two hon. members today who understand the value of two minutes, the hon.

Member for Calgary-Currie and the hon. Member for Peace River. We’ve had a change in the rules today because members in the past have said that they couldn’t participate within one minute. Well, four today conveniently found that they couldn’t participate in two minutes either. So congratulations to them.

Vignettes from Alberta’s History The Speaker: On this day, from a historical point of view, in 1950 His Royal Highness the Duke of Windsor and Wallis the Duchess of Windsor arrived in Calgary, and among the visits they made on this day in Calgary was to Alberta’s first Legion branch, the Calgary No. 1 branch of the Royal Canadian Legion. Interestingly enough, His Royal Highness had turned the sod for the Legion building in 1919, 31 years prior to his arrival. head: Presenting Petitions The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Beverly-Clareview. Mr. Martin: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to table a petition signed by Albertans who are very concerned about the dangerous driving conditions faced by many workers in northern Alberta. In particular, the 522 people who signed are urging the government to “increase infrastructure development funding for Highway 63.” This brings the total for this petition to 1,718 signatures. The Speaker: We’re on petitions. The hon. Member for Edmonton- Ellerslie. Mr. Agnihotri: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I’m presenting a petition from 102 residents of Alberta asking the government of Alberta to prohibit the importation of temporary foreign workers to work on the construction and/or maintenance of oil sands facilities and/or pipelines until the following groups have been accessed and/or trained: Unemployed Albertans and Canadians; Aboriginals; unemployed youth under 25; under-employed landed immigrants; and displaced farmers. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Decore. Mr. Bonko: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have a petition with 100 names that would urge the government of Alberta to prohibit the importation of temporary foreign workers to work on the construction and/or maintenance of oil sands facilities and/or pipelines until the following groups have been accessed and/or trained: Unemployed Albertans and Canadians; Aboriginals; unemployed youth under 25; under-employed landed immigrants; and displaced farmers. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Manning. Mr. Backs: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise with a petition from 117 Albertans from the fine Alberta communities of Bruderheim, St.

Albert, Lamont, Evansburg, Ardrossan, and Edmonton. It reads: We the undersigned residents of Alberta, petition the Legislative Assembly to urge the Government of Alberta to prohibit the importation of temporary foreign workers to work on the construc- tion and/or maintenance of oil sands facilities and/or pipelines until the following groups have been accessed and/or trained: Unem- ployed Albertans and Canadians; Aboriginals; unemployed youth under 25; under-employed landed immigrants; and displaced farmers. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Red Deer-North.

April 11, 2005 Alberta Hansard 653 Mrs. Jablonski: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Today I am presenting a petition signed by 405 Albertans from Edmonton, Sherwood Park, Bonnyville, Lac La Biche, St. Paul, Ardrossan, Leduc, Calgary, and Canmore urging the government of Alberta to “introduce legislation allowing parents the authority to place their [addicted] children into mandatory drug treatment and to fund urgently required . . . drug treatment centres.” The Speaker: The hon. Member for Lethbridge-East. Ms Pastoor: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I, too, rise to present a petition from Onoway, Calgary, Alberta Beach, G unn, Edmonton, and Spruce Grove, which reads: the people below signed urge the Government of Alberta to prohibit the importation of temporary foreign workers to work on the construction and/or maintenance of oil sands facilities and/or pipelines until the following groups have been accessed and/or trained: Unemployed Albertans and Canadians; Aboriginals; unemployed youth under 25; under-employed landed immigrants; and displaced farmers. head: Introduction of Bills Bill Pr. 1 Bow Valley Community Foundation Act The Speaker: The hon.

Member for Banff-Cochrane. Mrs. Tarchuk: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I beg leave to introduce Bill Pr. 1, Bow Valley Community Foundation Act. Thank you. [Motion carried; Bill Pr. 1 read a first time] head: Tabling Returns and Reports The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Beverly-Clareview. Mr. Martin: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have two tablings today. I would like to table the executive

summary of an interim report by the Wait Time Alliance entitled No More Time to Wait. Alberta’s wait times are embarrassingly far behind the benchmarks set out in this report. Mr. Speaker, I would also like to table copies of government news releases from June 30, 2004, and April 8, 2005. The second appears to be an announcement of a previous announcement. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Calder. Mr. Eggen: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to table the appropriate amount of copies of a brochure being distributed by Direct Energy currently.

The brochure boasts of Direct Energy’s ability to protect consumers from volatile and unstable energy rates. Of course, consumers wouldn’t need such protection if our electric- ity system had not been so disastrously deregulated in the first place. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Varsity. Mr. Chase: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I have three tablings today, two of which are from University Heights residents. The first is a copy of an e-mail from Bill and Norma Crooks, and the second is a letter from Mary Abel.

These Calgary-Varsity constitu- ents express their grave concerns regarding the impact on their community of the expansion of 16th Avenue to create access between the Foothills and Children’s hospitals. They feel strongly that there has not been adequate opportunity for meaningful community input concerning this project. The third tabling is a copy of the nonpartisan Friends of Medicare document released last Thursday to all parties entitled Flawed, Failed, Abandoned: 100 P3s, Canadian & International Evidence. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 3:00 The Speaker: The hon. Member for Lethbridge-East.

Ms Pastoor: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to table this submission with the required copies from Bev McKay, the founder of FAIRE, Families Allied to Influence Responsible Eldercare. It’s regarding incidents of horrific elder abuse in care, with the accompa- nying photographs. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Bonnyville-Cold Lake. Mr. Ducharme: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On behalf of the hon.

Premier I wish to table the appropriate number of copies of a letter the Premier sent earlier today to skip Randy Ferbey congratulating Team Alberta on winning the 2005 World Men’s Curling Champion- ship. head: Orders of the Day head: Written Questions The Speaker: The hon. Deputy Government House Leader. Mr. Zwozdesky: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Proper notice having been given on Thursday, April 7, I will now move that written questions appearing on today’s Order Paper do stand and retain their places with the exception of written questions 1 through 11 inclu- sive. [Motion carried] Student Loan Defaults Q1. Dr.

Pannu moved that the following question be accepted. For each of the fiscal years 2000-2001, 2001-2002, 2002-2003, and 2003-2004 what was the total number of student loan defaults broken down by the last postsecondary institution or private vocational school attended by the student? The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Advanced Education. Mr. Hancock: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to move an amendment to Written Question 1. I believe the amendment has been circulated.

It would amend Written Question 1 by striking out “fiscal” and substituting “academic” in reference to the years; by adding “and” before “2002-2003”; striking out “and 2003-2004”; adding “Alberta” before “student loan defaults”; adding “for those students who have completed their studies” after “defaults”; and striking out “institution or private vocational school” and substitut- ing “sector.” With those amendments the written question would read: For the academic years 2000-2001, 2001-2002, and 2002-2003 what was the total number of Alberta student loan defaults for those students who have completed their studies broken down by the last postsecondary sector attended by the student?

With those amendments, I would be able to accept the question, Mr. Speaker. I could speak to the amendment now, if you prefer, to the reasons why those amendments are considered to be necessary, and there are a number of them.

Alberta Hansard April 11, 2005654 First of all, while institution-specific data are available, such loan default information is currently not shared publicly. Each Alberta institution is provided with its own specific data. Institutions outside the province attended by Albertans do not get their data unless there is a problem with consistently high default rates. For example, Harvard, just to pick one, has never received a student loan default report from us. Information at the sector level, such as the university sector, is however available for public information.

Legal services has advised me that there are potential issues with providing information about i ndividual institutions pursuant to

section 16 and

section 25 of the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act. It may be harmful to the business interest of a private institution as per

section 16 or to the economic interest or other interest of a public body under

section 25. Legal services has also advised that we would be wise to consult with the institutions before we consider releasing this sort of specific data. Students with Alberta student loans are attending approxi- mately 1,900 institutions world-wide, which would be an onerous task of consultation. It would require approximately three months’ worth of work, and it would be also a considerable amount of work to generate sector-level data, such as universities and colleges.

If we even received permission from the institutions to release the data, I’m advised that the resulting report would be likely in excess of 5,700 pages in length. Default information is tracked based on people who have completed their studies in a specific year in question. Information for 2003-2004 is not available b ecause students would have graduated in May 2004. They would have had a six-month grace period and then another six months before we would consider them delinquent, and that’s the reason why we’ve asked to remove that year from the information.

Default information provided should only include Alberta student loans and not federal loans or other loans, obviously, obtained by students. Management reports associated with defaults are based on school leavers from the May 1 to April 30 period, therefore the academic year rather than the fiscal year. It’s for those reasons, Mr.

Speaker, that we’re proposing the amendments, to put the question into a context where we can provide as much information as we reasonably can provide and hopefully help satisfy some of the interests of the hon. member in asking the question but without putting an undue amount of work on the department to canvass fully the 1,900 institutions that might be involved to seek their permission to release the institution-specific information and, rather, grouping it by sector, which hopefully will provide at least some of the information that the hon. member requires. The Speaker: We’re on the amendment. The hon.

Member for Edmonton-Strathcona on the amendment. Dr. Pannu: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have carefully looked at the amendments that the minister has proposed to my question, which seeks information, I think, that’s in the public interest. It’s not just the curiosity of the Member for Edmonton-Strathcona that has led to the asking of the question in the first place. I think public interest is involved here. Public resources are involved here. Alberta’s students need to know how diffe rent institutions perform, why students going into particular institutions default.

They also need to know what percentage of students graduate and complete programs and what don’t and yet get the loans from these institutions. So while I would agree that part (

a) of the amendment, which changes “academic” to “fiscal,” may make sense because the minister’s records, I suppose, are by fiscal year rather than by academic year, if I understand the rationale behind part (

a) of the amendment – it’s striking out “fiscal” and substituting “academic” – Mr. Speaker, I would certainly appreciate the explanation on this, on the minister changing it from “fiscal” to “academic.” Is it because he is willing to provide information for the programs that have been completed? Is that the reason for it, for “fiscal” to “academic”? Part (

b) of the amendment seeks to limit the release of the information to the end of the 2002-2003 academic year, I under- stand. Again, we are now into 2005. We’re more than a year away, a year past the completed academic 2002-2003 year. The minister argued that the reason he can’t provide that information is because it takes six months for the first report to come, another six months after that, and I’d suggest to the mi nister that this still allows the minister to have had enough time to have the information for 2003- 2004. [interjection] Okay. Then part (

c) of the amendment strikes out for that reason “2003-2004.” I understand that the minister is giving me the facts as he has been advised from his department on the availability of this information, so I understand that one. I do have concerns, however, with respect particularly to parts (

e) and (

f) of the amendment, Mr. Speaker. Under (

e) the minister wants to add “for those students who have completed their studies.” If the information to be made available as a response to this question goes back two years, then I don’t understand why the minister would want to report only on programs that are completed and not on studies not completed. Lots of the defaults are related to students not completing the programs and quitting altogether. I think it’s important for us to have the information for each institution on how many students who do get the loans do in fact not only default but default as well as fail to complete the programs.

Some of the institutions, as I understand it, have really quite miserable records on the completion rates. Default rates are not the only issue. The issue is default rates related to the failure rates, students failing to complete those programs by many of the private, for-profit institutions, and we’ve asked questions in the House before on that. 3:10 The last point here. Part (

f) of the amendment is quite troubling. The minister is unwilling to provide this information by institution. We are not asking for information for every student.

Information is objectified, impersonalized when you ask for information by institution, and I don’t see why the minister should not in fact be ready to provide the information by institution regardless of whether or not the institution is private, for-profit and therefore business interests are involved, whether or not the institution is public and therefore can provide the information without raising any concerns about the protection of privacy of information for individual students or individual faculty or other employees of the institution.

I find it quite puzzling and, in fact, dismaying that the minister has sought to decline my request for information by institution, which in my view would be very, very important information for students to have, for their families to have. Families are supposed to supple- ment the studies of their children when they go to school. The loan program allows for that, in fact requires that. Families have an interest in knowing the record of completion, the record of default by institution, not just by sector, so that they can make intelligent decisions.

If they are going to be treated as consumers in the marketplace of academic institutions, then the government, I think, will serve the public interest better, will serve the interests of parents and families and students better if it, in fact, decided to be transpar- ent and provide information by each institution so that appropriate judgments can be made by families and by students before making

April 11, 2005 Alberta Hansard 655 decisions on which institutions they would prefer to enrol in and pursue their studies in. So I hope that the mi nister will change hi s mind on some of the parts of the amendments that he is proposing. I don’t see any reason why he should stick to the amendments as proposed because not to have this information available, not to be transparent about the information that I’ve sought – certainly, amendment (

f) will make information less transparent and more opaque, therefore taking away from parents, families, students the ability to make the right decisions given that they don’t have the right information. Why would he withhold information that’s critical to making intelligent, smart decisions with respect to enrolment and pursuit of studies in particular institutions based on a record of success or failure? Thank you, Mr. Speaker. [The voice vote indicated that the motion on the amendment carried] [Several members rose calling for a division.

The division bell was rung at 3:14 p.m.] [Ten minutes having elapsed, the Assembly divided] For the motion: Cao Jablonski Morton Cardinal Johnson Oberle Cenaiko Johnston Ouellette Coutts Knight Pham Danyluk Liepert Prins Ducharme Lougheed Rodney Evans Lund Snelgrove Forsyth Magnus Stevens Graydon Mar Strang Griffiths Marz Tarchuk Groeneveld McFarland Taylor Hancock Miller, R.

Webber Herard Mitzel Zwozdesky Horner Against the motion: Agnihotri Elsalhy Pannu Bonko Martin Swann Eggen Totals: For – 40 Against – 7 [Motion on amendment carried] The Speaker: Now we have before us a written question that has been amended. Does the hon. Member for Edmonton-Strathcona want to close the debate? Dr. Pannu: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, for the opportunity to conclude the debate. During the interregnum that we waited for this latest vote to happen, I had some opportunity to talk with the Minister of Advanced Education.

I appreciate his expression of some concern that he didn’t give me advance notice on it. I appreciate that. If we’d had an opportunity to talk, perhaps I would have been able to convince the minister to take out some of the more dismaying parts of this amendment proposed here, especially replacing “institution or private vocational school” with the term “sector.” I think that’s the most serious flaw in the amendment, in my view.

I want to make clear that my interest in seeking this information was specific to those institutions, private and public, that operate in Alberta, not all the 1,000 and some institutions all over the world that are accessed by our students one way or the other when they’re pursuing their postsecondary studies.

Perhaps that wasn’t entirely clear in my question, but had the minister’s staff contacted me, I would certainly have readily modified my question and made it more specific by suggesting that we seek information primarily on institutions that are located in Alberta and operate out of Alberta under government authorization in one form or another to which our postsecondary students go and, in order to go there, get student loans, and some of them default on them. 3:30 We do know that the rate at which students default on their loans has a great deal to do with whether or not they complete their programs at many of the institutions, and the rates of completion are highly variable from one institution to the other.

Somehow, I sense that there’s a correlation between high rates of default and low rates of success in some of these institutions. That’s why having that information is exceedingly important for students and families to be able to make an appropriate decision and for us as legislators to make sure that the monies that we provide in the form of student loans are appropriately invested, get properly used, and students get the needed protection. Then this increasingly market model of postsecondary education that this government has been encouraging to develop in this province they have to work with.

As consumers in the so-called marketplace they need this information, and that’s why I asked the question. So having said this, Mr.

Speaker, I am not happy with the question as amended, but I would simply hope that the minister can provide as much information as he possibly can in spite of his amendments so that students are served and the interests of students and families are served just as much as the public interest in the province is served by getting this information, making this information public, getting it into the hands of the citizens of this province, particularly the families and the students who go to postsecondary institutions in this province. Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. [Written Question 1 as amended carried] Student Loan Defaults Q2. Dr. Pannu moved that the following question be accepted. For each of the fiscal years 2000-2001, 2001-2002, 2002-2003, and 2003-2004 what was the total dollar value of student loan defaults broken down by the last postsecondary institution or private vocational school attended by the student? The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Advanced Education. Mr. Hancock: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to provide information as much as possible and, therefore, would be willing to accept this question if amended as I proposed by amendment which has been circulated. Essentially, this question is exactly the same as the previous question, except that it asks for the total dollar value rather than the total number, so the same amendments would pertain.

I would move that Written Question 2 be amended by striking out “fiscal” and substituting “academic”; adding “and” before “ 2002- 2003”; striking out “and 2003-2004”; adding “Alberta” before “student loan defaults”; adding “for those students who have completed their studies” after “defaults”; and by striking out “institution or private vocational school” and substituting “sector.” The written question as amended would then read:

Alberta Hansard April 11, 2005656 For each of the academic years 2000-2001, 2001-2002, and 2002- 2003 what was the total dollar value of Alberta student loan defaults for those students who have completed their studies broken down by the last postsecondary sector attended by the student? Mr. Speaker, I won’t repeat the rationale that I gave on Written Question 1 for the need for those changes. Suffice to say that the advice that I have from legal services indicates that there are FOIP issues surrounding the release of the information without having a discussion with each of the institutions involved.

While it would be our hope and in discussion with the hon. member who raised the question my intention to make sure that there are appropriate levels of information available to students to make appropriate decisions with respect to whether they should attend courses or attend institutions, and we’ll certainly work to try and make sure that students and their families have a ll the necessary information, the rationale used for making the amendment for Written Question 1 still stands with respect to Written Question 2.

Therefore, I’d ask the House to support the amendments so that I can provide as much information as is possible in the current situation to the hon. member and to the House, and we will then take a look further outside the process of Written Questions and Motions for Returns to see how we can enhance the availability of necessary or important information to students and their families. The Speaker: On the amendments, the hon. Member for Edmonton- Strathcona. Dr. Pannu: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The minister is absolutely right.

The amendments proposed to Written Question 2 are almost identical to those that the minister proposed for Written Question 1, and I have the exact same objections to the amendments proposed to Written Question 2 in the same wa y I had those objections to the amendments proposed to Written Question 1. Mr. Speaker, I still find it difficult to accept the minister’s argument that he is constrained by the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act when it comes to making public informa- tion on default rates on loans by institutions.

The FOIP Act, as I understand it, simply does not protect institutions from providing information that is public, that should be public, that is not about individuals, either indi viduals who are employees of those institu- tions or individua ls who are students at th ese institutions. So I cannot accept the argument – it’s simply not persuasive – that FOIP legislation constrains the minister from offering that information. There must be other reasons, and I can only wonder what those reasons are. Replacing “institu tion or private vocational school” with “sector” makes lots of information unavailable.

It makes the whole information opaque. This House is about transparency; it’s about making information public. It’s making institutions adhere to standards of openness and transparency that the public intere st in this province demands and requires. To exempt them from releasing such information is to give them licence to hide the information that, if made public, would certainly serve the interests of families and students, who have lots at stake in going to postsecondary schools or sending their children to postsecondary schools.

They spend lots of money and resources in enabling these people to be able to go there, and to deny them this critical piece of information is to really deny them a service that they, I think, merit, have the right to have. Mr. Speaker, in light of the conversation that the Minister of Advanced Education and I had, I’m not going to spend all of my time and ask the House to again spend time on taking a standing vote on it, but I cannot support these amendments because they defeat the very intention and the purposes that lie behind the asking of the question in the first place. Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. [Motion on amendment carried] Dr. Pannu: Mr. Speaker, there’s very little to be said about the amended question. I know that the minister will proceed to provide some very general information, which I’m convinced will not be of great use to the students and families whose interests are at stake here. But you get what you get, and I’m therefore willing to let the matter proceed to the next stage. [Written Question 2 as amended carried] 3:40 Student Loan Numbers Q3. Dr. Pannu moved that the following question be accepted.

For each of the fiscal years 2001-2002, 2002-2003, and 2003- 2004 what was the total number of students who received student loans while attending a postsecondary institution or private vocational school in Alberta broken down by ins titu- tion? The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Advanced Education. Mr. Hancock: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Again with Written Question 3 I would indicate that we’re prepared to accept the question if it were amended so that it could be responded to in an appropriate way.

In this case the amendments aren’t as extensive because we can provide, in fact, information with respect to the 2003-2004 fiscal year in respect of the total number of students who received loans, so that amendment isn’t necessary in this one.

I would ask and I would move that Written Question 3 be amended by adding “Alberta” after “received” and by striking out “by institution” and substituting “by the last postsecondary sector attended by the student.” Written Question 3 will then read as follows: For each of the fiscal years 2001-2002, 2002-2003, and 2003-2004 what was the total number of students who received Alberta student loans while attending a postsecondary institution or private voca- tional school in Alberta broken down by the last postsecondary sector attended by the student. Again, the reasons for the changes are straightforward.

Institution levels of numbers of students receiving loans are not currently shared, but information at a sector level is available to be made public. Legislative services have indicated again, as I indicated with respect to the other question – I won’t go through the whole thing – that it could be a violation of sections 16 or 25 if we agreed to release the information without having prior discussions with the institutions, the private institutions under

section 16 or the public institutions under

section 25. Approximately 200 to 250 of the 1,900 institutions attended by Albertans are within the province, so that answers the previous question that the hon. member raised. There are 200 to 250 in the province, and we’d need to consu lt with those ins titutions prior to releasing these data, which would be an incredibly time-consuming process.

Our standard student loan reports by institutions also include other student assistance received, i.e. benefits and grants, and to provide an institution-le vel breakdown of loans would also require those reports to be manually severed to exclude the other assistance information. So, again, while I always have the interest in providing as much information as is appropriate and possible without unduly taking away from the time that staff have to devote to the interests of

April 11, 2005 Alberta Hansard 657 students in the postsecondary institution system, it is appropriate to make this amendment so that we can provide as much information as may be reasonably available while recognizing the FOIP require- ments and making sure that we don’t violate that particular act either knowingly or unknowingly and, also, of course, to limit the informa- tion we provide with respect to Alberta student loans as opposed to Canada student loans or loans from family, friends, or other financial institutions. So with that, Mr.

Speaker, I would ask that the House agree to the amendment so that we might provide the hon. member with information on an appropriate basis. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Strathcona. Dr. Pannu: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The amendment proposed by the Minister of Advanced Education is in two parts. Part (

a) simply refers to Alberta students, and I have no objection to part (

a) of the amendment. I accept that amendment. My concern remains with part (b), where the word “sector” will replace the words “by institution” in Written Question 3. Mr. Speaker, I regret to say that I find that FOIP, the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act, is serving here more as a fig leaf to cover information, to refuse to release information which I see as important, which has nothing to do with the privacy of individuals. It has to do with the performance of institutions.

Institutions must be judged based on their performance, and there’s no reason for this minister or this government or this House to provide protection against the ability of these institutions to deliver the goods which they’re there to offer to students if they are willing to undergo huge student debt and take out loans to seek those qualifications, seek those educational experiences that the educa- tional institutions offer.

I think it’s always important if you, particularly a government that regrettably seems intent upon the private, for-profit sector to grow within our public postsecondary education system, then turn around and protect those very institutions that in my view have very little useful role to play within the public postsecondary system, to provide them the protection that they neither deserve nor need to have.

If they are going to be players within the postsecondary education system, then they ought to be held accountable for the record that they produce in terms of the success and failure of the students that enrol in them. It’s that information that will then be useful for future students to use to make decisions on whether they want to take loans from the government or public resources to go to the institutions which they know will not deliver on the promised goods. So why, for goodness’ sake, keep this information from being available to students and families who have to make these critical decisions?

We have heard in this Assembly time and again, year after year about the massive debt loads that our postsecondary students have. They have to have these in order to get to these institutions in the first place.

Well, if that is the case, if we are forcing students to take such high risks with respect to their own financial security present and future and encourage them to invest in their own future from their own resources, then I think we as a government, as a Legislature have a responsibility to stand up for them and call on the institutions to make the information public th at would be absolutely necessary for these students to be able to say: yes, I want to go to this institu- tion because of their good academic record, performance record, and no to that institution because I know that the government has provided me with the information that tells me that I shouldn’t be seeking admission to this institution based on its past record.

It is that information that’s being denied by way of this amend- ment, and that’s why, Mr. Speaker, I again find myself opposing very strongly the part (

b) of the amendment as proposed by the minister. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. [Motion on amendment carried] Dr. Pannu: Mr. Speaker, I would simply say that my question, Question 3 as amended, won’t provide the information that’s critical for students to have, for families to have.

Regardless, whatever information the minister is willing to provide I will receive and then make a judgment, based on that, on whether or not to continue to persist in my attempts to have information made public that I think is in the interest of students and families to have. [Written Question 3 as amended carried] Student Loan Dollar Value Q4. Dr. Pannu moved that the following question be accepted.

For each of the fiscal years 2001-2002 and 2002-2003 what was the total dollar value of student loans received by students in Alberta broken down by postsecondary institution or private vocational school attended by the student? The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Advanced Education. Mr. Hancock: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As with written questions 1, 2, and 3, Written Question 4 could be accepted if it was amended.

Again, the amendments would be made in order to align with the type of information which we feel we can legally provide without having to do the thorough review under the FOIP Act. 3:50 So I would move that Written Question 4 be amended by adding “Alberta” before “student loans,” adding “while attending a postsecondary institution or private vocational school” before “in,” adding “the last” before “postsecondary,” and striking out “institu- tion or private vocational school” and substituting “sector.” The amended written question will then read as follows: For each of the fiscal years 2001-2002 and 2002-2003 what was the total dollar value of Alberta student loans received by students while attending a postsecondary institution or private vocational school in Alberta broken down by the last postsecondary sector attended by the student?

Again, Mr. Speaker, I won’t go through and repeat the arguments in detail, but essentially these amendments are perceived to be necessary as we could not agree to release information of that nature without doing a thorough FOIP review, particularly under

section 16 and

section 25 of the FOIP Act. I have every interest, as the hon. member does, in making sure that the students have appropriate information in making determina- tions as to what institutions they might attend or what value they can get, but there is no value, Mr. Speaker, in giving people information which is not in a context or at an appropriate level. Certainly, there’s no good reason for us to perhaps go to an extent where we might be violating our own laws with respect to protection of privacy. I must say that the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act extends privacy not just to individuals but also to institutions under

section 25 and to private-sector companies, which would include for-profit, private-sector schools, under

section 16. We would not be able to release these data without doing a consulta- tion with each of those institutions. While that might be a valuable thing to do, doing it now in the context of the types of information that we have and agreeing to do it now would not in our view be

Alberta Hansard April 11, 2005658 legal. Therefore, we must decline to do that, and that’s why we ask for the amendments. What we do going forward to ensure that we look at how we collect data and how we work with institutions and what information might be available to be provided to students in making their decisions is something that I think is worthy of discussion, and I would certainly appreciate any input from the hon. member or other members of the House with respect to those questions.

Regretfully, we must ask for these amendments to this question at this time in order that we can abide by the laws of this House’s past and ensure that we don’t make undue use of the taxpayers’ money using civil servants’ time to gather information which is not being collected in the way in which it’s being asked for. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Strathcona on the amendment. Dr. Pannu: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise regretfully to oppose the amendment for the reasons that I would be repeating the fourth time around in the House if I spoke at length about why I am opposed to the amendment.

The amendment simply defeats the very purpose of asking the question. Clearly, now, it seems to me that there are two facts here. One, the minister’s inability or lack of readiness to supply information by institution calls into question the commitment of this government to hold institutions to account whether they are for profit, whether they have business interest or academic interest. I think that this House and this government must hold all institu- tions accountable for the taxpayers’ money that they receive. In this case we are asking for information that students receive to go to these institutions.

It is not their money directly given to institutions – I would recognize and acknowledge that fact – but the point is that these are public dollars. Many students who take these loans go to some of these institutions of questionable repute and, in fact, never complete the programs. They fail the programs, and then they default on the loans that they have taken. That default on student loans means that public dollars are being lost.

Then the government calls on some collection agencies to get after these students to recover these loans and in the process loses goodness knows how much, 30 per cent to 70 per cent, whatever the take is of collection agencies, of the money that they’re able to collect at the end of this arduous process after they have really harassed families and students for years. So all we are doing here is drawing attention to the serious flaw in the decision of the government to make whatever information it makes public and perhaps some gaps in the information that ought to be collected that it presently does not collect.

There’s no reason to be complacent in the manner in which we acc ount for public dollars and tax dollars that we spend either by way of loans or by way of some subsidy or grant to institutions. The answer in the question that I have raised here today would have helped us to account for every dollar that we spend on postsecondary education whether by way of student loans or through some other shape or form. Unfortunately, the minister has refused to do this. The last point I want to make, Mr. Speaker, is the what I consider inappropriate use of the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act.

To use this act to withhold information which has nothing to do with the protection of privacy of individuals – all we are seeking is institutional reco rds and information related to institutions, not to individuals – is to bring the efficacy and useful- ness of this piece of legislation into question. When you use a piece of legislation for purposes for which it is not supposed to be used, you risk putting the credit of the piece of legislation into question, into disrepute. That is my additional concern, Mr. Speaker, that I must make sure gets on the record.

We shouldn’t be using pi eces of legislation which are not designed to deny people the information that’s legitimately due to citizens, that’s legitimately due to people who use these institutions: families, students, faculty, and taxpayers in general. My fear is that here FOIP is being used to do precisely that, and that’s deeply regrettable. Thank you. [Motion on amendment carried] Mrs. Jablonski: Mr. Speaker, I would respectfully request that we move to private members’ business with unanimous consent from the House, please. The Speaker: We’ve just approved the amendment to Written Question 4.

We still have to deal with Written Question 4 as amended. Now, hon. Member for Edmonton-Strathcona, do you want to conclude the debate? Dr. Pannu: Mr. Speaker, I just want to say on Written Question 4, eviscerated and emasculated as it is by the amendment proposed by the minister and voted for by this House, I am willing to receive the information that the minister wi ll be providing with reference to Written Question 4. [Written Question 4 as amended carried] Mrs. Jablonski: Mr.

Speaker, I would request that we move to private members’ business with unanimous consent of the House. [Unanimous consent denied] The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar. Ground Ambulance Services Q5. Mr. MacDonald moved on behalf of Dr. Taft that the follow- ing question be accepted. Which reports, consultation groups, and stakeholder reviews have indicated to the government that $55 million is the total amount needed to fully fund the provincial takeover of ground ambulance services on April 1, 2005? Mr. MacDonald: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I think this question is self-explanatory, certainly, but there has been a signifi- cant increase in the amount of money that is reported to be required to implement this ground ambulance service. There are some municipalities that are still scratching their heads as to how all this came about. Some municipalities feel that they have been left in the dark and possibly could be left holding a significant bill at the end of this. All these reports, consultation groups that have had discussions with the government, and the reviews from stakeholders: it would be very interesting to see what they had to say initially.

It is a matter of public interest because of the significant cost overruns from the initial estimate. Thank you. 4:00 Ms Evans: Well, Mr. Speaker, I’m so delighted to rise. In a spirit of transparency and co-operation, we are prepared to accept Written Question 5. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar to close the debate.

April 11, 2005 Alberta Hansard 659 Mr. MacDonald: Yes, Mr. Speaker. Certainly, I would like to express on behalf of the hon. Member for Edmonton-Riverview and other members of our caucus the acceptance of Written Question 5 and look forward to receiving all of the information in a timely fashion. Thank you. [Written Question 5 carried] The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar on behalf of the hon. Member for Lethbridge-East. Alberta’s Representative in Washington Q6. Mr. MacDonald moved on behalf of Ms Pastoor that the following question be accepted.

How much money is being spent on leasing accommodation for the Alberta representative in Washington, D.C., for the 2004-05 fiscal year? Mr. MacDonald: Thank you very much. Now, certainly all members of this Assembly and the taxpayers know how much the Alberta representative – in some circles it is called the Alberta envoy, and in some other circles it’s called the Alberta ambassador – is receiving in wages and benefits. I’m sure this accommodation has a thermostat on it, so if the honourable ambassador would like to put on a sweater and turn down the thermostat in that accommo- dation, he would be able to do so.

But, certainly, in light of the costs of this office to date and the set-up for wages and benefits, it’s in the taxpayers’ interests that we know how much, if any, the leasing accommodation costs would be to the taxpayers for the fiscal year 2004-2005. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Education. Mr. Zwozdesky: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’m pleased to rise on behalf of the hon. Minister of International and Intergovernmental Relations to indicate his desire to accept this particular question as presented. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar on behalf of the hon.

Member for Lethbridge-East to close the debate. Mr. MacDonald: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On behalf of the hon. Member for Lethbridge-East I would like to thank the hon. Minister of Education. We look forward to receiving that informa- tion, again in a timely manner. Thanks. [Written Question 6 carried] The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar. Coal-bed Methane Wells Q7. Mr. MacDonald moved that the following question be accepted. Of the total number of coal-bed methane wells drilled in Alberta in 2004, how many pr oduced either saline or non- saline water? Mr. MacDonald: Thank you very much, Mr.

Speaker. All the information that is circulating around this province at the very moment about coal-bed methane production and the amount of salty water that is or is not coming from those wells is interesting because of the different views that are being expressed by landowners. Some landowners are all for this coal-bed methane well drilling; others are not. This written question has provoked a significant amount of debate on that side. Mr. Mar: Just your pronunciation. That’s all. Mr. MacDonald: Yes. I can assure the hon.

Minister of Community Development that where I grew up, there are yet to be any coal-bed methane wells, and this is an interesting problem. Anyway, Mr. Speaker, there seems to be a lot of misinformation out there in regard to . . . An Hon. Member: Mispronunciation. Mr. MacDonald: There may be that too. There’s a lot of misinformation out there that needs to be cor- rected. This could be a very good industry for Alberta, the coal-bed methane industry, for a form of natural gas pr oduc

Document details

Collection	Alberta — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	20050411
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	L26 S1 20050411 1330 01 han.pdf
Language	en
Format	json
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	72ce9f6f792845eb4a982c60a48d8dc1241fbb55

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