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October 8, 1996

36th Parliament, 1st Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

L105 - Tue 8 Oct 1996 / Mar 8 Oct 1996

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

MANITOULIN FERRY SERVICE

ACCESS TO GOVERNMENT

PAULA STEPHANSON

HAMILTON SESQUICENTENNIAL

EDUCATION

ISLINGTON RATEPAYERS ASSOCIATION

EDUCATION

PRESCRIPTION DRUGS

SAM ALFIERI

VISITOR

DECORUM IN CHAMBER

ORAL QUESTIONS

SCHOOL LIBRARIES

HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING

EMPLOYMENT STANDARDS

NURSING STAFF

HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING

HOMELESSNESS

AMATEUR SPORT

OBSTETRICAL CARE

CHILD CARE CENTRES

PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION

NIAGARA ESCARPMENT COMMISSION

NOTICE OF DISSATISFACTION

COMMENTS OF MINISTER OF HEALTH

PETITIONS

RENT REGULATION

BEAR HUNTING

TAX REDUCTION

HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING

OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY

BEAR HUNTING

NORTH YORK BRANSON HOSPITAL

NURSING STAFF

USER FEES

NON-PROFIT HOUSING

MANDATORY INQUESTS

VIDEO LOTTERY TERMINALS

PRIVATIZATION OF PUBLIC SERVICES

DELLCREST CHILDREN'S CENTRE

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

UNIVERSITY OF ST JEROME'S COLLEGE ACT, 1996

ORDERS OF THE DAY

COURTS IMPROVEMENT ACT, 1996 / LOI DE 1996 SUR L'AMÉLIORATION DES TRIBUNAUX

ADJOURNMENT DEBATE

OBSTETRICAL CARE

The House met at 1332.

Prayers.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

MANITOULIN FERRY SERVICE

Mr Michael A. Brown (Algoma-Manitoulin): Mr Speaker, this is my first opportunity to congratulate you on your new position.

The people of Ontario should know that the Chi-Cheemaun ferry service from Tobermory to South Baymouth is non-existent at present. Last week the Chi-Cheemaun experienced mechanical difficulties and will be out of commission for the season.

Manitoulin Island and the Bruce Peninsula will be and are experiencing severe economic repercussions as a result of this disruption of service. The loss of tourism dollars to businesses on Manitoulin and Tobermory will be significant. I'm told already of premature closings of some businesses as a result of the lack of ferry service.

In addition, people from the North Shore and Manitoulin, people from southern Ontario and university and college students who want to return home for the Thanksgiving weekend with family and friends will be greatly inconvenienced.

It is time that the Minister of Northern Development and Mines takes responsibility for this important transportation and tourism link. It is time that he put the Nindawayma back in service so that the Chi-Cheemaun has a backup. It is time this government behaved responsibly with regard to the people of Manitoulin and the Bruce Peninsula and made a commitment to northern transportation.

We can only be thankful that this breakdown did not occur in July.

ACCESS TO GOVERNMENT

Mr Tony Martin (Sault Ste Marie): Every day that we wake up now we hear of another instance of this government not wanting to listen to or hear from the people of this province, not being interested at all in some of the traditions of this democratic place as it brings forth its agenda to reduce health care, reduce education and do all kinds of other mean-spirited things to the people of this province.

Every day since they took power there's been example after example of legislation coming through this place where there has been no desire to go out to the public for their input or to consult or hear what people had to say, nor the presentation of an impact study.

This morning in my office I had a call from the press in Sault Ste Marie, who are now finding it very difficult to access Queen's Park. The cutting of the tie line has effectively cut off the ability of thousands of people in this province to phone Queen's Park and access a minister's office by simply calling one number and asking for that office.

Now, if they don't have the number, if they don't have the money that's required to pay for long distance, they cannot phone Queen's Park, they cannot talk to ministers, they cannot give their input, nor can they hear from government offices just exactly what they're doing and why they're doing it. This is disgraceful. It's a diminishing of and disrespect for democracy.

We're going to hear, later today or tomorrow, another piece of legislation: the diminishing of the number of MPPs in this place. There will be no input there either.

PAULA STEPHANSON

Mr Gary Fox (Prince Edward-Lennox-South Hastings): I would like to congratulate Paula Stephanson for her successful swim of Lake Ontario on August 16 and 17. At the age of 17, Paula is one of the youngest swimmers to successfully cross the lake. This feat demonstrates the drive and sheer willpower of this local teenager.

At 11:40 pm on August 16, Paula not only entered the cold waters of Lake Ontario but began swimming against the wind and seven-foot waves. The 52-kilometre swim took Paula just over 22 1/2 hours. Paula was accompanied by a sailboat with navigational equipment, two Zodiacs and a power boat.

A swimmer cannot be touched during a swim but may rest periodically by treading water or changing strokes. Each hour during the swim, Paula had some rest time before getting back into the rhythm.

Congratulations, Paula, on a terrific accomplishment.

HAMILTON SESQUICENTENNIAL

Mr Dominic Agostino (Hamilton East): Mr Speaker, first I want to add my congratulations on your election and a job well done so far.

I rise today to speak of the sesquicentennial celebrations that have been going on all year in the city of Hamilton. The great and glorious city of Hamilton is celebrating 150 years of existence. These celebrations will come to an end at the end of this year, which has been a great year for Hamilton.

We have hosted the Juno Awards, a visit by His Royal Highness Prince Charles, a visit by Governor General Roméo LeBlanc, the Ford world curling championships, and we're going to cap this off in November with the Grey Cup game in Hamilton, hopefully involving the Hamilton Tiger Cats.

This has taken a tremendous effort month after month by many people, led by Mayor Morrow and Hamilton city council, who have shown tremendous vision and leadership in planning these celebrations. I want to congratulate the mayor and the council; the co-chairs of the sesquicentennial, Milt Lewis and Vincenza Travale; the executive director, Carmen Rozzoto; and most of all the tens of thousands of Hamiltonians who have worked hard, participated, become involved and made this celebration truly a great event in the history of the city of Hamilton.

I know everyone in this House joins me in wishing Hamilton another 150 wonderful years. I'm sure the Premier and everyone in this House wish the Tiger Cats a Grey Cup victory in November in Hamilton.

EDUCATION

Mr Bud Wildman (Algoma): In order to counter some of the negative comments that have been made by the Minister of Education and Training about our public education system in Ontario, I thought I should put on the record some facts.

Ontario's graduation rate in 1993 was 84%, which is two percentage points higher than the national rate. On average it's about a 10% improvement per decade since the 1960s.

Canada has the highest post-secondary education participation rate in the world, with more than 40% of graduates going on to higher education. In Ontario the participation rate is 50%.

Canadian students who have graduated since 1989 are generally more literate than those who graduated ahead of them: 25% of Ontario students aged 16 and over are reading at the highest literacy rate measured.

There are a number of awards that have recognized excellence in our education system. Here are just a couple of examples.

Doris Chan, a student of the North York Board of Education's A.Y. Jackson Secondary School, was one of four Canadian students who competed at the 28th International Chemistry Olympiad.

Of the six students representing Canada in the International Mathematics Olympiad in India, four were from Ontario.

We've already seen the award for the Durham Board of Education and White Pines Collegiate in Sault Ste Marie.

There are many, many others who have won awards in education in Ontario. I think we should celebrate the successes of public education.

ISLINGTON RATEPAYERS ASSOCIATION

Mr Douglas B. Ford (Etobicoke-Humber): I rise today to recognize the 25th anniversary of the Islington Ratepayers Association and the celebration which I had the pleasure of participating in earlier this month.

The association has made a significant contribution to the Etobicoke community through its suggestions and feedback surrounding the activities of various levels of government. When it comes to matters at Queen's Park, the members of the Islington Ratepayers Association are very vocal. For example, this organization supports our initiatives to decrease the size of government, is optimistic about the recommendations of the Crombie commission and wants to see changes made towards a more efficient and accountable government.

When I was at the celebration last week it was a pleasure to meet many of the individuals who are so interested in the changes we're making. It was clear that the recent legislation to decrease the number of MPPs at Queen's Park was well received.

Those involved with the ratepayers' association should be proud of their achievement. Over the years, members such as president Terry Reardon have done a great service to the area through their goodwill.

On behalf of the province, I express my gratitude to the people of the Islington Ratepayers Association and wish them success in the years to come.

EDUCATION

Mr Richard Patten (Ottawa Centre): I rise today to point out some examples of doubletalk regarding education that the minister and the government continue to espouse.

On August 20, addressing the Ontario Teachers' Federation, the minister said, "I'd have to say it's about fixing a system that's not working." Meanwhile, in Europe on September 11 the Premier said to potential European investors in London, England, "Ontario has a top grade education system." Then again, CBC News at Noon on September 20 quoted lawyer Leon Paroian, who is reviewing Bill 100. In response to a brief which basically said, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it," Paroian replied, "I have a different proverb. `If it ain't broke, break it.'" It sounds to me like the strategy of creating a crisis.

The minister's doubletalk on the value of teachers in his statement on World Teachers' Day, "You are the lifeblood of our education system, bringing vitality and energy to the classrooms of Ontario," flies in the face of the many critical remarks he has made over the last year about teachers. Further, the minister stated on October 3, 1996, "The achievements of education in Ontario are the achievements of Ontario teachers." If the minister really believes this, he should be prepared to involve the teachers' associations and federations in meaningful consultations related to his numerous reforms.

PRESCRIPTION DRUGS

Mrs Marion Boyd (London Centre): In this House, the Minister of Health has said a number of times, in relation to the $2 fee that is now being charged on drug benefits, that part of the action of the government has been to improve the Trillium drug plan. But those of us who work in our offices in our constituencies know that there are many complaints about the Trillium drug plan that need to be dealt with. These are numerous, especially for people who are in particular danger.

I have had a number of discussions with the AIDS community around the Trillium drug plan, and they have the following concerns that they want me to bring to the Legislature.

First, because the plan takes into effect last year's income, someone who becomes ill and has a sudden drop in income is judged to have a deductible at the previous year's income.

There's a 12- to 13-week wait, and when drugs cost anywhere from $500 to $1,500 a month, that puts people in real jeopardy in terms of carrying on their drugs.

People cannot find anyone to talk to personally in the Trillium drug plan office. They have reported that those people working in the office say there are only five people remaining in that office to process claims and that this becomes worse at the end of the year.

I would urge the Minister of Health to look at the Trillium drug plan and keep his promise to make it more effective.

SAM ALFIERI

Mr Bart Maves (Niagara Falls): A couple of weeks back on a Saturday I participated in a ceremony commemorating the life of Mr Sam Alfieri, a famous Niagara Falls entrepreneur who passed away in February 1996 at the age of 69. For over 40 years, until his death earlier this year, Mr Alfieri ran the famous Capri Restaurant, located at the corner of Stanley and Ferry. Over the years, the place has been frequented by many Hollywood stars and thousands of tourists.

Mr Alfieri was a popular entrepreneur and committed member of the Niagara Falls community. For more than 20 years, Mr Alfieri served on the city of Niagara Falls parking and traffic committee. He also served several terms with the Niagara Falls Canada Visitor and Convention Bureau and spearheaded efforts to improve Ferry Street, where his business was located.

But many of his friends and close acquaintances remember Mr Alfieri as someone who had a passion for politics. His restaurant is known as a hangout for the city's politicians. Many of us would seek Mr Alfieri's advice because he had a knack for knowing what was on the public's mind. Anyone who avoided his advice did so at their own peril. I know I will sincerely miss my chats with him and his warm pats on the back.

The life of Mr Alfieri has touched us all. I and all the people of Niagara Falls will certainly miss his kindness, friendship and generosity, but his legacy will live on in the kindness and hospitality of his family.

VISITOR

Mr Tony Silipo (Dovercourt): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: Being a stickler for the rules, as you are, and a well-informed person, I'm sure that you would not want our proceedings to go on this afternoon without our recognizing that we are doing so under the watchful eye of Hugh MacGinnis, the reeve from the village of Dutton, who is sitting in the gallery to the end of the chambers.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): That is not a point of order -- it's not anywhere near a point of order -- but I certainly will.

Mr Rick Bartolucci (Sudbury): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I see my friend is back today. After perusing Hansard very, very diligently and carefully, I can't find any place where the Minister of Health would get the impression that I didn't like him. I just want to clarify the record and say that I do like him all of the time, even though I don't like what he's doing.

But more importantly, he's still waiting for the puppy that our caucus promised him, so my point of order, Mr Speaker, is that I'd like to present him with a puppy. You'll notice that the puppy won't bark, but it won't dirty. It has a head of stone. It truly is a commonsense puppy. Could I have one of the pages deliver it to him?

The Speaker: That, again, is not a point of order. You may give the Minister of Health a puppy in your own time. I don't know if it's appropriate to be doing it here.

DECORUM IN CHAMBER

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Ministers' statements? None. Then I will respond to the point of order raised by the member for Algoma yesterday with respect to signs in the Legislature. I spent a considerable amount of the hours in between yesterday and today reviewing some of the previous decisions by the previous Speakers brought forward with respect to signs in the Legislature. It falls under standing order 13(a), which says in part, "The Speaker shall preserve order and decorum," which is a rather broad and very interpretive approach to signs in the Legislature.

In 1989, after due consideration, the standing committee on the Legislative Assembly advised the Speaker that standing order 13(

a) gave him sufficient authority to rule on the use of signs or displays in the House as he sees fit.

While exercising some discretion, past Speakers have sought to discourage the use of signs and props in the chambers, and the examples are several. I'll just mention a few.

In January 1983, acting Speaker rules the member for Oakwood should put his sign down and stop the demonstration.

In May 1983, Speaker directs the member for Nickel Belt to remove the sign from the front of his desk.

In March 1991, the Speaker addresses House after question period: "I just hope that we can continue in the future having members speak without bringing props into the House."

In June 1991, the Speaker allows the clock to tick during question period until members put signs away.

In June 1993, acting Speaker directs the member for Nepean to remove props, saying, "Props are not considered to be parliamentary."

In November 1993, the Speaker rules that we discourage all members from bringing signs into the chamber and asked them not to display them.

I know the member for Algoma brought forward the ruling in 1991 by then Speaker Warner with respect to the member for Etobicoke West. If you happen to read a little further on, in December 1993 the same Speaker Warner ruled, "Speaker Warner admonishes the member for Etobicoke West and directs him to remove a sign reading, `Call Police.'" He stated, "Members will know that in order to try and maintain decorum in this House, we discourage members from having signs of any description and would ask the members to please abide by that." I am in complete agreement with Speaker Warner.

Further, I would like to inform the members of the Legislature that it's important that we try to get as many questions on the question period agenda as possible. I know the backbenchers, having sat on both sides of the Legislature in the back bench -- it is an important part of their jobs to represent their constituents in the most visual and effective way they can, which is to get questions on the legislative agenda during question period.

I would ask that the leaders of both parties and the respondents in the cabinet please make your questions and answers more succinct, direct and to the point. It seems to me reasonable that you could probably get a question put in a minute or a minute and a half. If it isn't going to get put in a minute or a minute and a half or less, it probably isn't going to get put. That is probably the analogy you can use.

To the ministers, the same situation applies. We should be able to get a reasonable response in a minute to a minute and a half, and it would give the opportunity for both back benches to get more involved in question period, which I think is both productive and effective for all the members in the House today.

ORAL QUESTIONS

SCHOOL LIBRARIES

Mr John Gerretsen (Kingston and The Islands): In light of what you've just stated, Mr Speaker, I'll make my question a one-line question to the Premier because the Minister of Education is absent today.

Mr Premier, do you agree with me that school libraries and the reading of books are an integral part of classroom education?

Hon Michael D. Harris (Premier): Yes.

Mr Gerretsen: The answer was "yes," but let me just remind you that in your Common Sense Revolution you stated, "Classroom funding for education will be guaranteed." Students across Ontario are feeling your cuts in the classroom. When students in St Thomas returned to school last month they found there was something missing in their school, namely their librarian. Students in Hamilton have actually found themselves locked out of their school libraries because of your budget cuts.

Premier, will you admit that your cuts are having an effect on classroom education and that your cuts are denying students the opportunity to read and learn in their school libraries?

Hon Mr Harris: Absolutely to the contrary, there is not a single action that has been taken by this government or the Minister of Education or the Minister of Finance that ought to have caused any diminution of service in the classroom.

Mr David S. Cooke (Windsor-Riverside): You can do better than that. Twenty per cent cut --

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Order.

Hon Mr Harris: We are dealing with a system run by school boards, programs delivered by school boards, of which there has been extensive examination and study, one by a former cabinet minister of the Liberal Party, who estimated I think that in the bureaucracy above the schools, above the classroom, not including libraries, there might be upwards of $1 billion being wasted.

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): Read the whole report.

The Speaker: Order.

Hon Mr Harris: There was a reduction of less than 2% that was passed on to the school boards, about $260 million in operating last year, peanuts compared to what former Minister Sweeney identified as waste within the system. So if there has been an effect on classroom teaching, it ought not to be tolerated, and the Minister of Education is looking at ways, even though it's not our jurisdiction, to ensure to the best of our ability that it does not take place.

Mr Gerretsen: You don't seem to understand that libraries in schools are the great equalizers, that no matter how rich or how poor a student is, school libraries provide an opportunity for all children to learn. Your cuts are taking that away from them.

We have worked hard to increase literacy in this province over the last number of years, and your actions are undermining these efforts. It's not just in school libraries that programs are being cut; literacy programs have been cut as well. The ministry has cut literacy programs by as much as 25%, according to the Ontario Literacy Coalition, programs that support libraries specializing in literacy materials. Many school boards are claiming that as a result of the funding cuts they are dropping adult literacy programs.

Will you admit that your cuts are destroying literacy programs, taking books away from children and hurting the education system that you are so quick to brag about overseas as being number one yet are condemning at home?

Hon Mr Harris: No, there has not been one single action taken by anybody -- the Minister of Education. Certainly the Premier has not suggested to boards: "Cut libraries. Cut services there. Cut literacy money being spent there." I appreciate the member's concern, because I think he shares with me my belief that we are dealing here in Ontario with an excellent education system, the best teachers you are going to find anywhere in the world. This is what we've all been saying, including the minister.

But there is a problem with a system where, when faced with reductions in the vicinity of 2%, the only response is to go and attack programs that are of benefit in the classroom and to literacy. That's not acceptable, that's not to be tolerated and I hope you will work with us to make sure that's not the case in the future.

The Speaker: New question.

Mr Gerretsen: When you cut the provincial funding by as much as 25%, you are affecting the programs.

The Speaker: Who's your question to?

HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING

Mr John Gerretsen (Kingston and The Islands): My second question is to the Minister of Health. Welcome back to the House. Before I proceed, perhaps I will fill you in on what's happened during your absence. The people of Sudbury have been left scrambling to save their local health care services after your Big Blue Tory bulldozer plowed under two of their hospitals, slashed their hospital operating budgets by $41 million and cut the number of acute care beds from 571 to 365. In Thunder Bay, exactly the same thing has happened. They've got 50% fewer acute care beds.

Right here in Toronto, as a matter of fact, the Toronto Hospital has fired over 322 nurses. Remember, those are the people who cure people, as you like to call the health care providers. This is another direct result of your cuts to hospital budgets, seriously threatening patient care. That makes for quite a busy week while you were away.

I say "you" because indeed you are the minister responsible for the steering of the so-called restructuring committee that's slashing $1.3 billion out of the health care system.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Question, please.

Mr Gerretsen: In light of everything I've stated, is this what you envisioned when during the last election you promised voters that your government would protect health care: $1.3 billion in cuts to health care, hospital closures and hundreds of layoffs?

Hon Jim Wilson (Minister of Health): The honourable member mentions my absence, which to say the least is unparliamentary, but I will remind members that Honda Canada Manufacturing is expanding, some 1,600 new jobs. I was at Honda yesterday, along with the Honourable Bill Saunderson, celebrating that expansion and that tremendous vote of confidence from the manufacturing sector in the province of Ontario.

In response to the honourable member's question, we have fully kept our campaign promise and our Common Sense Revolution promise to maintain health care spending at $17.4 billion and above. Secondly, the record would be clear that over the four and a half years I served as my party's health care critic I never once criticized the hospital restructuring. The previous government launched over 60 studies and spent $26 million.

I assumed all the way along, as did the district health councils, that something would be done with those studies, that they wouldn't be allowed to gather dust on the shelves and that patient care would become the focus of the health care system. When you see, as has been pointed out in the commission's two reports today, excessive administrative costs well above the provincial average, then I think it's incumbent upon all of us to encourage the restructuring and to drive those excessive administrative dollars down to patient services.

Mr Gerretsen: Minister, if you think that less funding, fewer hospitals and fewer health care providers will make for better patient care, you're fooling yourself but you're not fooling the people of Ontario.

Let me tell you what your actions will result in: cheaper, second-rate health care and more money in the pockets of the rich, thanks to your 30% tax cut. You say your cuts will not affect patient care. Tell that to the people of Thunder Bay and Sudbury, who have already been dealt their sentence from your so-called restructuring commission. Tell that to the thousands of people in Kincardine and Wiarton, who are bracing for the Big Blue bulldozer machine to hit their communities.

Tell that to the hundreds of nurses at the Toronto Hospital and the 15,000 nurses province-wide who will no longer be around to care for patients. Tell that to the patients who are now aware of the fact that former cafeteria workers are being trained to perform tasks once reserved for medically trained professionals because hospitals are trying to meet your bottom line.

The Speaker: Question, please.

Mr Gerretsen: Minister, will you not acknowledge what thousands of people have been trying to tell you for so long, will you not admit that your cuts to health care are affecting patient care and threatening to destroy quality and accessible health care as we know it?

Hon Mr Wilson: What I will admit is that this is the only government in Canada that's undergoing health care restructuring that has not cut the overall health care budget. He may want to talk to his federal Liberal cousins, who cut health care and social service transfers to this province by $2.1 billion. We've had to cut just about everything else in government, outside of the protected areas, to make sure that we can continue to fund the health care system at the level we committed to during the campaign and that we've more than lived up to since coming to office over a year ago.

Mr Gerretsen: You've cut $1.3 billion out of the hospital budgets, and you know it. Do you not hear what the thousands of people in communities across Ontario are telling you? They are telling you that they're frightened. They're worried that they will not be able to access the kind of care that they need in their own communities. They know that when a $1.3-billion cut is driving the restructuring process, cheaper, inferior and less accessible health care is inevitable. These are the real concerns out there. These are the people you made your election pledge to, and they want answers.

Minister, will you not finally agree that a second-rate health care system is much too high a price to pay for your 30% tax cut? Will you not, together with the Minister of Finance and the Premier, admit that enough is enough, restore the $1.3 billion cut and protect health care for Ontarians, as you promised in your last election?

Hon Mr Wilson: Again, there is nothing to restore. The honourable member is incorrect. The health care budget is fully intact. We're making the investments in community health and in mental health and community-based services as required, not only on direction from the commission but much ahead of what the commission is recommending.

Secondly, I'd remind -- because I'm free to talk about Thunder Bay now that the commission has issued its final orders. Thunder Bay is only being asked to do what other hospitals are doing in Ontario. The 586 patient-days per 1,000 population, 25% of our hospitals in Ontario are currently achieving that rate, and the commission adjusted for the fact that it is the north, that it is the northwest and that they may have to admit people more often.

What they said was, "You can admit people as often as you used to in the past, even though that's well above the provincial average, but they shouldn't stay as long if you're applying all the modern techniques and doing what other hospitals are doing in the province." So this isn't revolutionary, it's not pushing the envelope with respect to expectations that we should have for our health care providers and our administrators and our hospitals, because we already have 25% of the hospitals in the province meeting those expectations and truly have already undertaken their own restructuring to become efficient.

Quality of care has not suffered in those 25% of hospitals.

The Speaker: Answer, please.

Hon Mr Wilson: Quality of care is not suffering. Dr David Naylor's second atlas came out -- Mr Speaker, really quickly -- just a few months ago and he cannot find any evidence to substantiate your stories about suffering quality and access.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. The question has been answered. The leader of the third party.

EMPLOYMENT STANDARDS

Mr Howard Hampton (Rainy River): My question is for the Minister of Labour. Last month, the Union of Needletrades, Industrial and Textile Employees, UNITE, made a presentation to the committee studying your bad bosses bill that attacks workers' rights set out in the Employment Standards Act. These workers put on a sweatshop fashion show. They know that your government's Bill 49, the bad bosses bill, would make conditions worse for low-paid women by making it more difficult for them than ever before --

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Order. To the leader of the third party, you know full well that demonstrations aren't allowed in this place. I would ask that it discontinue.

Minister of Labour, you're on. Respond.

Mr Hampton: I have not had a chance to put the question.

The Speaker: Oh, I'm sorry. If you'd put it quickly, please, then.

Mr Hampton: I will put the question. It appears that the government doesn't want to see the pricetags on the clothing, so let me just put it to you this way, Minister. The women who are wearing that clothing were paid less than the minimum wage for manufacturing that clothing, for sewing it, less than the minimum wage. In fact, you're going to make it more difficult for those women to even have the minimum wage enforced; you're going to make it more difficult for them.

The Speaker: The question, please.

Mr Hampton: Why do you insist on taking workers' rights out of the Employment Standards Act? Why do you insist on making it more difficult for women like that to even have the minimum wage observed, to even get their wages paid, to even raise a complaint with the Ministry of Labour? Why are you doing that?

Hon Elizabeth Witmer (Minister of Labour): To the leader of the third party, I am shocked and I am surprised that you can stand there, after having been in opposition for five years, as I was, and sending you letters and telling you that there was a problem on behalf of these women. I want to tell you that it indicates here that you never made any commitment to these women, and yet you've got the gall to stand up in this House today and ask for appropriate protection.

We are giving those women the protection they deserve, that you refused to do; that's why we are doing a complete review of the Employment Standards Act. We will ensure that there are basic minimum standards and that these people will receive the protection they deserve, which, I can tell you, you refused to commit to do in the five years when you were in government.

Mr Hampton: It's interesting to see how the government now attempts to rewrite history. We at least gave women like that the opportunity to join a union, to fight for their own rights, rights that you're taking away; that's what we did. We at least sat down with women like that and started to work on a process that would mean that the minimum wage could be enforced; you're taking that away.

I want to go back to the point. Those women were paid a piece rate of $4.52 to make that clothing, which sells for $59.45; $59.45 is what the clothing sells for in Ontario stores, and they were paid a $4.52 piece rate, which works out to $5.40 an hour. Yet you are going to make it even more difficult for them to enforce the Employment Standards Act.

The Speaker: The question, please.

Mr Hampton: That's why they came here today: not to complain about what we did under Bill 40 for them but to point out that you're going to take money out of their pocket, you're going to make it more difficult for them to enforce the Employment Standards Act in order that you can give the worst bosses in this province more money. How do you justify that, Minister? How do you justify it?

Hon Mrs Witmer: I want to just tell the leader of the third party one more time that I have met with this group of women on several occasions while I was the opposition critic for labour and now as the Minister of Labour. I understand their concerns. We are the first government since 1974 that is prepared to completely review the Employment Standards Act in order that women such as those here today have the opportunity to make sure that the basic minimum standards are there for their protection. We are going to be enforcing the act. We're the first government that has had the courage to deal with the Employment Standards Act.

Mr Hampton: Those women tell a slightly different story from the Minister of Labour. Yes, they acknowledge that the Minister of Labour has met with them. Then the Minister of Labour has totally ignored them. What they don't understand is that the Minister of Labour keeps promising a review of the Employment Standards Act. They ask the Minister of Labour: "Why are you cutting us before you do the review? If you're so interested in our welfare, why don't you put off the cuts and why don't you do the review of the Employment Standards Act and see how it can be improved instead of cutting workers' rights?"

They also ask another question, and maybe you can answer this. If you want to improve the Employment Standards Act, if you want to ensure that it will be enforced, why did you lay off a third of the Ministry of Labour staff whose job it is to enforce those labour standards? Why did you do that if you're interested in enforcing it?

Hon Mrs Witmer: I want to again indicate to the leader of the third party that we have made tremendous strides since taking office over one year ago. When we came into this position, there were 4,000 cases before the officers who were dealing with the employment standards act. We have been able to reduce that caseload significantly. We are the first government that has demonstrated a commitment. We have moved people around. I also want to tell you that we have endeavoured to improve communication about the act for workers such as the workers in this audience today. We translate the information into different languages.

Mr David Christopherson (Hamilton Centre): We had to force them to take the bill out to public hearings. You wanted to ram it through in two weeks.

The Speaker: The member for Hamilton Centre.

Hon Mrs Witmer: For the first time, as I indicated to you before -- and I know that the critic for labour is not interested in listening because he had five years in opposition in order to help these women --

The Speaker: Answer the question, please, Minister of Labour.

Mr Christopherson: You don't want to listen. You stand there and lie. It's lies.

The Speaker: Order. I ask the member for Hamilton Centre to withdraw that comment.

Mr Christopherson: Mr Speaker, if I said something unparliamentary I withdraw it.

The Speaker: No, I think it's got to be a little clearer, member for Hamilton Centre. I want you to withdraw the comment you made. It's very clear what you said. You know exactly what is unparliamentary.

Mr Christopherson: Speaker, I think I've followed the format used by many members of this House in withdrawing. I said that if I said anything unparliamentary, I withdraw it.

The Speaker: The member for Hamilton Centre, there are no ifs, ands or buts about it. What you said was unparliamentary. I give you the last warning to withdraw. Withdraw.

Mr Christopherson: Speaker, I sincerely do not believe I am doing anything wrong procedurally and I stand by what I said.

The Speaker: I give the member for Hamilton Centre a last opportunity. There's nothing "if" about it. It was unparliamentary. I ask you to withdraw the comments. Last chance.

Mr Christopherson: Mr Speaker, I have used exactly the same language, I believe, in the past when I have attempted to be in proper accordance with the rules. I say to you, with respect, sir, if I said anything unparliamentary then I withdraw it.

The Speaker: Thank you, member for Hamilton Centre. Again, this is the first ruling and I will let the member for Hamilton Centre stand, but I'm going to suggest that in the future, to withdraw, you withdraw the remarks you made. We know what is unparliamentary. I will give all the House a warning: There's no "if" any more; we know what it was you said and I would ask in future that you please withdraw.

Finally, the Minister of Labour.

Hon Mrs Witmer: Just to conclude my remarks by indicating to you one more time that we are doing what no other government has done since 1974; we are going to ensure that the basic minimum standards are protected and we are going to make sure that the women in this gallery receive the protection they deserve.

The Speaker: New question, the leader of the third party.

Mr Hampton: The record will show that the Minister of Labour has done away with inspections and done away with enforcement, and then says there's no problem. That's what's really going on.

NURSING STAFF

Mr Howard Hampton (Rainy River): My second question is for the Minister of Health, the minister who is more and more assuming control over the destruction of hospital care in Ontario.

Minister, 322 nurses at Toronto Hospital received layoff notices on October 2, 242 full-time and 80 part-time. The chief executive of the hospital says that the layoffs are a direct result of the cut in funding from the provincial government. And in Windsor last week, 14 of 39 nurses at Malden Park Continuing Care Centre were laid off. What's so strange here is that Windsor's health care system has already been restructured. In fact Malden Park is a result of the restructured services in Windsor, but still they were hit with a 6% decrease in funding and layoffs for nurses.

People are very concerned because people know that when you lose nurses out of the system the mortality rates go up and people end up spending more time in hospital, not less. In fact a British expert was here, Dorothy Wedderburn, and she says you are making the same mistakes that Margaret Thatcher made in Britain, cutting holes and cracks in the health care system.

Does the minister think it's good for health care that all these nurses were laid off at Toronto Hospital and that it's good for health care that these women were laid off at Malden Park in Windsor? Does the minister think that's good for health care?

Hon Jim Wilson (Minister of Health): Hospitals are autonomous corporations. The government of Ontario doesn't own any of the 219 public hospitals. They have public boards that make decisions. At the end of day, though, my responsibility as Minister of Health on behalf of the people of Ontario is to make sure that quality and access is maintained. I can assure you that this year for the first time we sent back more operating plans of hospitals because we didn't feel they were protecting quality -- they weren't cutting administration first, for example -- and that we're doing everything we can to make sure both quality and access to services are maintained as hospitals become more efficient.

So with respect to the Toronto Hospital, we looked at their operating plan and we're confident at this point that they'll be able to maintain quality and access because of the new way they're doing business in terms of having teams of nurses not just assigned to a unit where there may or may not be any patients, but teams able to respond to the actual patient needs throughout the hospital.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Answer, please.

Hon Mr Wilson: It is a new way of allocating human resources for that hospital. It's not a new way for the system. We'll be monitoring it very carefully to make sure both quality and access for patients are maintained.

Mr Hampton: I'm beginning to think we should call the Minister of Health the minister of fantasyland. He takes $343 million out of hospital budgets. Those hospitals are very clear with him, as they are with everyone else, that the minister's cuts are the issue. It's the minister's cuts that are forcing the layoff of nurses here in Toronto, in Windsor. It's the minister's cuts that are going to put 900 front-line nurses and health care workers in Thunder Bay out on the street without a job and it's the minister's cuts that are going to put hundreds of nurses and other health care workers in Sudbury out on the street without a job. It's no one else; it's the minister's cuts.

I want to ask the minister again, do you think it's good for health care for people that all of these people, all of these health care workers, all of these nurses, are being laid off as a result of your cuts? Do you think that's good for health care? Do you think that's good for people across Ontario?

Hon Mr Wilson: Again, the honourable member from the party across the floor has a lot of gall to ask this question. Over 2,000 nurses were laid off in the five years that you were in office. You closed 8,600 hospital beds. The problem is, you forgot to get rid of the administration. You know, just maybe if you'd done some restructuring properly over there, actually got rid of the waste and duplication and the excessive administration in our system, there would be more money around today for patient care. So what we're having to do is to go through the restructuring.

We've already invested $170 million in community-based care, creating 4,400 new jobs for nurses and homemakers and other health care providers. The health sector training and adjustment program has already had over 2,000 nurses go through it in terms of helping them to retrain for jobs in the community. Health care is a growing sector in this province overall. Yes, shifts are occurring, but there are jobs in health care in this province. It's one of the expanding sectors as the population gets older and grows.

The Speaker: Answer, please.

Hon Mr Wilson: There's a net employment increase in health care. It's just that some people will have to retrain to get the new jobs in the community-based side of the sector.

Mr Hampton: The minister comes right back to the point we've been trying to drive home for weeks and he wants to ignore. The fact is that millions of dollars are being taken out of communities like Thunder Bay and Sudbury and there is no guarantee of the community services.

At the Toronto Hospital, all of the nurses who are being laid off are not as a result of restructuring. Those are just health care cuts. The fact of the matter is, we have not seen any evidence yet of the reinvestment that is going to put those nurses and other health care workers back into health care. All we're seeing from your government is health care cuts. That's what we're seeing at the Toronto Hospital -- health care cuts, nurses being laid off. That's what we're seeing in Windsor at the home for the aged -- health care cuts, nurses being laid off.

That's what we're seeing in Sudbury and Thunder Bay -- health care cuts. We're not seeing the schemes, the plans that will reinvest and that will put those people back to work doing front-line health care.

The Speaker: Question, please.

Mr Hampton: So I ask the minister again, do you think it's good for health care, do you think it's good for people across this province that all of these nurses are being laid off as a result of your health care cuts?

Hon Mr Wilson: Already the restructuring, without seeing any of the hospital dollars from the savings that hospitals are being asked to achieve over the next three years -- that just started on April 1, so in reality the ministry or the government hasn't seen those savings -- we've made all kinds of reinvestments.

Thunder Bay, for example, over the last few years has had a 136% increase in its home care budget. It is ready for the customers that will come as a result of moving towards more community-based services, which give greater dignity to individuals to remain in their homes.

Frankly, you spent millions of dollars surveying seniors. You surveyed them to death. But what came out of those surveys is that consistently they said they prefer to stay in their homes; they prefer that investments be made in community-based services.

Just on September 25 I announced $250,000 for a crisis response service in Thunder Bay. The Thunder Bay Mental Illness Support Network gets $166,500. We've spent several million dollars expanding cardiac stents, some of that for northern Ontario; $170 million, as I said today --

The Speaker: Answer, please, Minister.

Hon Mr Wilson: -- 4,400 new jobs in the community-based sector; an expanded diabetes network for the north and throughout Ontario. Some 40 announcements we've made in reinvestment dollars long before we've seen any money out of hospital restructuring. The fact of the matter is, we've put more money up front. That's why the budget's up this year.

The Speaker: The question's been answered.

Hon Mr Wilson: We're investing in community services --

The Speaker: New question, the opposition. Order, Minister of Health.

HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING

Mr David Ramsay (Timiskaming): I'd like to continue with the line of questioning to the Minister of Health about his health care cuts. Minister, we hear a lot of buzzwords in your answers about restructuring and hospital closures, bricks and mortar, and community-based health care. I'd like to bring you down to the patient level and talk to you about some of the cases that I and other members have to deal with on a day-to-day basis.

Richard Adams in my constituency had a heart attack in March of this year. After a series of tests through the cardiology department at Memorial Hospital in Sudbury, April 23, it was decided that he needed heart surgery and he was put on the list. At that time, he was told that it would be about two to three months before he could have surgery. Mind you, emergency cases would be coming in from time to time and the possibility was there that he would be bumped. He was pretty anxious by July. On July 20 he was told that he was 20th on a list of 194 waiting for heart surgery.

They couldn't get any answers over the summer, so they came to my office on September 6 and we were able to determine that he was now 10th on the list.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Question, please.

Mr Ramsay: Four days later, he was called to say that his surgery was scheduled for September 23. On September 19 he had a heart attack. They got him into surgery on September 24, but unfortunately he died a few hours after surgery. How is your restructuring and closing of 228 beds in Sudbury going to alleviate this problem?

Hon Jim Wilson (Minister of Health): The restructuring has not occurred. Sudbury and Thunder Bay have two to three years to make the changes. To mix the two issues is simply fearmongering.

When I announced recently the $2 million for cardiac stents, and at the previous announcement that we made with respect to increasing the number of surgeries this year and next by 19%, Dr Hugh Scully, one of the world's leading cardiologists and cardiac surgeons, said that Ontario's doing the best job of all of the provinces in Canada.

The object is to eliminate waiting lists, but I can say today that Ontario has the shortest waiting lists in Canada as a result of the reinvestments that this government made, and we made those reinvestments before we've even received the comprehensive report on cardiac care from the provincial cardiac care network. To tie restructuring into a current day-patient is a simply wrong.

At the end of the day we'll have more money for surgeries. In Winnipeg, when they restructured, they had 33% more surgeries after restructuring than before. That's because the dollars were driven into surgeries and away from administration, bricks and mortar, waste and duplication.

Mr Ramsay: I asked you how we could do a better job. I don't like the situation today. As far as I'm concerned, it's not good enough because I don't want to see 194 constituents from northeastern Ontario dying this year because they can't get to operating rooms. How does the reduction of 20 operating rooms at Memorial Hospital down to 12 mean we're going to have better access? How is closing down of the recovery rooms in those hospitals by over 200 going to mean we have better access? You're capping those operations down. Sure, we're getting a few more next year.

We're getting about 19 more next year than we did for this year. We're losing people in northeastern Ontario. The system's not working well today and your restructuring is not going to make it any better. The capping and the cutting that you're doing to pay for the Mike Harris tax cut are killing people in this province. What are you going to do about it?

Hon Mr Wilson: That's extremely unfair, to say the least. I won't comment specifically on the Sudbury restructuring because we're in that period of time when the public and others are to submit their comments to the Health Services Restructuring Commission.

But let's look at Thunder Bay. You're right, there is a specialist recruitment and retention problem. You know what? The commission is asking that we spend over $4 million to set up a special program in addition to what we do now and what previous governments have done to really try and retain and attract specialists to the north. They've asked that we reinvest $1.2 million in new adolescent mental health services. They've identified a gap in services and asked that we take money and reinvest it in there. There's $2.3 million in transitional care beds.

This is a new type of bed for Ontario when you don't need all of the services of a $400 to $500 acute care bed and you're not quite ready to go home or you're not quite ready to go into a $95-a-day nursing home bed. They're asking for a brand-new system of beds to look after those people who are in between. It's a good and efficient use of our health care dollars. It's the proper thing to do for patients. Patients have long been asking for a transitional type of institution or type of bed.

The Speaker: Answer, please.

Hon Mr Wilson: All of the reinvestments identified by the commission fill gaps in services and indeed, at the end of the day, will improve the services in Thunder Bay and in other areas across the province.

HOMELESSNESS

Mr Rosario Marchese (Fort York): My question is to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. This morning at 8 o'clock, I joined with a group of people -- the Ontario Coalition Against Homelessness and the Ontario Coalition Against Poverty, including residents of Seaton House -- all very concerned about the growing number of people dying in the streets. As I stepped out of my home, I realized this morning that it was very cold and that it was raining as well. So I walked back into my warm house to pick up a coat and to pick up an umbrella, including a cap.

As I drove to Seaton House, it occurred to me that the men and women with whom I was joining don't have a warm house to go back to, to pick up a warm coat, an umbrella or a cap.

A number of things have happened. According to the department of public health, many homeless deaths occur in the months of September, October and November. There are approximately 25,000 to 50,000 homeless. What are you going to do to make sure that the ravages of winter do not claim more homeless this winter?

Hon Al Leach (Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing): I'll refer the question to the Minister of Community and Social Services.

Hon Janet Ecker (Minister of Community and Social Services): I think the honourable member will know that we are continuing to support municipalities in the cost-sharing arrangement we have so that they continue to provide emergency housing and shelter for those who need it.

Mr Marchese: The reason I asked the Minister of Housing is because I know that Mike Harris had appointed him to deal with issues of homes for people who don't have them. He didn't create a ministry of homelessness; he created a Ministry of Housing to deal with the issue of homes. That's the question, by and large. Homeless people do not have a warm home to go back to. He refers me to another ministry. Then the other minister says, "Oh, we're dealing with it; we're cost-sharing with municipalities." I'm not quite sure how they're dealing with the fact that more and more people are dying on the streets.

That's the reality. Both of you and the Premier have the fiduciary responsibility to deal with all of the citizens of Ontario. What we have known and what we know is that more and more people will die on the streets.

The question I have for you, Minister, as I did for the Minister of Housing, is this: We've learned from an

article by John Ibbitson in the August 26 Kingston Whig-Standard where he says the following: "Insiders of Ontario's Tory government say the province will not accept an inquest jury's pleadings to spend more on the homeless, claiming it only worsens the situation." Is this what the Premier appointed both of you to do? Is this your response to the homeless issue that we face here in Toronto and elsewhere?

Hon Mrs Ecker: I appreciate the concern of the honourable member about those who need such shelter. I can only repeat that the Ministry of Community and Social Services is taking its responsibility here very seriously. This funding is being maintained. We are continuing to support the municipalities in exercising this very important and, I believe, very necessary responsibility.

AMATEUR SPORT

Mr Steve Gilchrist (Scarborough East): My question is for the Minister of Citizenship, Culture and Recreation. Last Friday, when you launched the government's new sports strategy, the Liberal Party, even before your announcement, came out with its position, I guess demonstrating the same ESP skills that led to its incredibly successful election platform strategy last year. Their inference was that this new policy would hurt sports development of provincial athletes from all levels, all the way from junior to Olympic. Do you believe this new policy hurts athlete development in this province?

Hon Marilyn Mushinski (Minister of Citizenship, Culture and Recreation): Absolutely not. Let me tell you what our new strategy is going to do: It's going to target our resources on the development of athletes and coaches, and it's going to be spending taxpayers' money smarter by requiring value for the resources we spend. I don't think funding administration for snooker and horseshoes is a particularly wise use of taxpayers' dollars. In fact, previous governments allowed too much of the taxpayers' support to be absorbed by administrative costs. The Liberals have lost touch --

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Answer, please.

Hon Ms Mushinski: -- with the notion of value for money. If they want to continue to support --

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. I say to the members of the opposition, I cannot hear the answer and I'm --

Interjections.

The Speaker: You know, it's your time, and I really believe it is your time, and the problem is that standing here is not productive. If I can't hear the answer, I can't possibly rule properly. I ask all members to allow the answer to be put. Can you please sum up, Minister of Citizenship?

Hon Ms Mushinski: I'll sum up by saying that if the Liberals want to continue to support snooker and solo swim and fly and bait casting and parachuting under the guise of competitive sport, then I would suggest they defend those decisions in their own ridings.

Mr Gilchrist: Madam Minister, on a short supplemental, before the comprehensive sports strategy was introduced, could you tell this House how much money precisely was spent on sport that went directly to the athlete and how much went towards overhead and administrative costs?

Hon Ms Mushinski: The province provides the provincial sports organizations with anywhere from 20% to 40% of their operating expenses. Of the money that we invest as a province, over 50% is spent on administration. We don't believe that's a strategic use of taxpayers' dollars in support of amateur sport. What we do believe in is directing our resources, and what this new policy will do is direct our resources to the development of athletes, coaches and volunteers, which we believe is the foundation of our provincial sports system.

OBSTETRICAL CARE

Mrs Sandra Pupatello (Windsor-Sandwich): My question is for the Minister of Health. Minister, we have a very serious situation in the Windsor area regarding a lack of obstetricians for women who are pregnant, and in particular women at risk who are pregnant. I know you're very aware of the circumstances in Windsor because we call you on a repeated basis. Moreover, we have had all of the women call your office. As you know, we don't have a solution yet and I'm looking for some leadership from you so that we can solve this very important issue in Windsor.

Hon Jim Wilson (Minister of Health): As we speak, administrators from the hospitals in Windsor and the health care leadership are meeting here in Toronto to come to offer some solutions and advice to the ministry on what we can do. We have a very good plan, actually, that we're proposing to them, but we need their buy-in to make sure that we're not stepping on anyone's toes.

Mrs Pupatello: Minister, may I suggest, that so far all of your work has been a complete failure because the result is that I currently have 68 women in my office alone that we are trying desperately to find obstetricians for. We have looked in London, we have looked in Chatham, and of course we're also looking in the United States where you suggested that they could "pop across" the river in order to deliver a baby.

I guess my greatest concern is for women at risk. I've got to get you to understand how serious an issue this is. Our Windsor hospitals are not the issue. The issue is that they don't have in some cases family doctors, in all cases obstetricians, who are prepared to deliver these children. Where women are at risk, we have a very real risk of harming the future of the children and the future of the moms.

Minister, this is very serious. Please don't just brush this aside. You've been talking about negotiation for some time. That is not an option. Gestation is only nine months long and you've been at this for several months already. I'm asking you today: You must come up with a solution. Being agreeable to pay American fees is not an answer. Our women do not want to have babies born in the US. We need obstetricians in the Windsor area and we need a solution today.

Hon Mr Wilson: Other than giving constant criticism over the past few months, this member has never offered one solution. We gave obstetricians a $14,000 raise on April 1. We're paying their malpractice insurance.

We're at the negotiating table dealing with their other frustrations. Some of them are very real frustrations, and we're very concerned about that. We are meeting with the hospital people today to offer what we think is a solution and to hear their solutions. I'd like to hear your solutions to this. You constantly scaremonger and you constantly refuse to give us the names of patients who you claim want help.

We want their names. We want to help these women. If it means sending someone to the US because they are having a difficult birth and they need the service, by golly, the service, the patient, the baby and the mother come first, and we'll do whatever we have to do to make sure mothers and children receive the services they deserve from this health care system and from this government.

Mrs Pupatello: I have a point of order, Mr Speaker: It's about something given by the Minister of Health that is completely erroneous to stand in Hansard. We have continuously --

The Speaker: That's not a point of order. The member for Windsor-Sandwich, come to order, please.

Mrs Pupatello: On a point of personal privilege.

The Speaker: There's no such thing as a point of personal privilege. There is a point of privilege. If you'd like to take up a point of privilege, I will take it up after question period.

CHILD CARE CENTRES

Ms Frances Lankin (Beaches-Woodbine): My question is to the Minister of Community and Social Services. In order to build the quality child care system we have in this province today, a necessary component of government support has been the capital dollars to construct the centres. In 1994-95 your ministry spent about $40 million in constructing new child care centres. In 1995-96 your government cut that down to $5.8 million. This year you've budgeted $83,000.

The Ministry of Education and Training, which used to have a fund to support the building of new child care centres in new schools that were being constructed at $10.5 million a year, has actually cancelled that program altogether. That was a $50-million budget line between the two ministries that's been cut to $83,000.

How can you justify this virtual elimination of support for the construction of not-for-profit child care centres while at the same time trying to deny that you're dismantling the not-for-profit system in this province?

Hon Janet Ecker (Minister of Community and Social Services): It was a little difficult to hear some of the figures the honourable member across the way was using, but I don't believe she recognized the $7 million in capital funding we spent on centres with the serious health and safety needs they had in those centres.

Ms Lankin: The minister ignored my question. The $7 million that you spent was for health and safety upgrades at centres that were just about to close altogether. I'm talking about capital for new centre construction. Your government has cut it from a combined budget of over $50 million a year down to $83,000. What does that mean? that means no new centres are going to be built.

Let me give you an example that I know you're familiar with: the Central Eglinton Children's Centre in the Eglinton public school, a replacement school that's being built, a new school, and there are no dollars to replace the child care centre. That's only one of four schools in downtown Toronto where this is happening. We're going to lose four centres. We're going to lose 214 licensed spaces, and 214 kids and families are going to be without access to not-for-profit child care. You sent them a letter that said, "Go to philanthropic organizations." No child care centre in this province has ever been able to get that kind of assistance.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): The question, please.

Ms Lankin: Then you said: "Go to the Toronto board. They'll fund it." Your Minister of Education and Training has said they can't spend money outside the classroom. Minister, you announced in your budget a new $40 million for child care, we're halfway through the year, and you have not told anyone how to access that money or what you're going to spend it on. You won't be able to spend it all. Why won't you please spend $1.5 million of that and save these four child care centres in downtown Toronto that we need so badly? Save the 214 spots for those 214 kids and 214 families.

Hon Mrs Ecker: Thank you for the question. We are protecting that funding for child care. It's unfortunate that in this particular circumstance the school board seems to have some difficulties with their priorities on this issue. We have set out the $600 million; we've put forward proposals on how that $600 million is proposed to be spent.

I find this question passing strange. Last week, the honourable member was criticizing me because we weren't consulting. We are now consulting on those proposals before we make decisions, and now she's complaining that we don't appear to be moving on them. I think we need to hear and consult, and I will stand by that commitment.

PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION

Mr Gary L. Leadston (Kitchener-Wilmot): My question is to the honourable Minister of Transportation. Over the summer, I understand that the honourable minister and the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing announced an initiative called the community transportation action program. I understand that the goal of this program is to allow and encourage communities to get the most out of their existing transportation resources. My question is, can the minister explain how the program will achieve this objective?

Hon Al Palladini (Minister of Transportation): I want to thank my colleague the member for Kitchener-Wilmot. Certainly I would be happy to share this information with all the House members. We have been saying all along that this government is committed to doing better for less and spending tax dollars very wisely. That means getting the most out of the resources that are already paid for and available. Many communities have service vehicles that are not being utilized to their fullest extent. We must develop efficiencies and eliminate duplication.

We are working with those communities to help them better deliver the services in a more cost-efficient way. Together with my colleagues, as the honourable member mentioned, the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing and also the Minister of Community and Social Services and the Minister of Health --

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): The answer, please, Mr Minister.

Hon Mr Palladini: -- we will be working with the municipalities, assisting them in developing these opportunities. I want to give some examples, because it is important.

The Speaker: I'm afraid you don't have the time.

Hon Mr Palladini: For instance, one Ontario city --

The Speaker: Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr Leadston: The program obviously is well intentioned, and I hope it does achieve the results that are intended. Does the minister have any evidence that this type of initiative has worked elsewhere, and are there any real savings?

Hon Mr Palladini: One example is an Ontario city that has nearly 200 vehicles at its disposal and only 20 of these vehicles are basically available for specialized transit. There has to be a better way of communication in the transit system to see how best they can utilize that.

In Philadelphia, a broker manages transportation for social services for the state. They introduced a modern management system, and the cost per trip has gone from $21 to less than $6. In Wakulla county, Florida, a private sector brokerage firm computerized scheduling and dispatching. The service available has gone up 50% while the costs have come down 12%.

I believe this government owes it to Ontario taxpayers to make sure we exploit every opportunity to make sure we can deliver the services in a cost-effective way.

NIAGARA ESCARPMENT COMMISSION

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): My question involves the Americanization of Canada, similar to the last question.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): And who is it to?

Mr Bradley: It's to the Minister of Environment and Energy, who I know is lurking in the background. Minister, I know you were invited to attend the founders' meeting celebrating the founding of the Niagara Escarpment Commission last weekend. I don't know if you made it or not, but I know you were invited to that. You deserve considerable credit for that; I want to say that.

May I ask you this question, however: Will you assure the people of this province that the Niagara Escarpment Commission will have full jurisdiction and control over all the lands within the Niagara Escarpment Commission and you will not turn over responsibility for those planning decisions to local municipalities, which often have a vested interest in development of those lands and which often do not have the capability in terms of the staff numbers to be able to deal with the many applications that come before the commission?

While you're doing that, would you ensure that the people you place in the position of escarpment commission members are those who are going to protect the Niagara Escarpment? Because you've already bounced five or six people who were designated to do that, and they've been bounced by your government because they aren't Tory hacks.

Hon Norman W. Sterling (Minister of Environment and Energy): I want to tell the member for St Catharines I was at the dinner of the founders for conservation, along with Mr Wildman, a former Minister of Environment, and I was looking for the member for St Catharines, who is a former Minister of Environment, and the member for Ottawa East, who is also recognized, but unfortunately there weren't any Liberals at that particular founders for conservation dinner to celebrate the protection of the escarpment, to celebrate the environment and to celebrate what has been accomplished in the past.

The member for St Catharines well knows my record on the escarpment. He well knows that when I brought out the plan in July 1994, I said at that time that if I was going to err I would always err in favour of the escarpment. Therefore, I intend to appoint sensitive people to the commission, people who will uphold the protection of the escarpment, people who will have the concern of the escarpment and the preservation of the escarpment, the preservation of its beauty forever for all of the Ontarians in the future, as I have in the past.

NOTICE OF DISSATISFACTION

Mrs Sandra Pupatello (Windsor-Sandwich): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: Pursuant to standing order 34(a), I'd like to advise the Speaker of my dissatisfaction with the Minister of Health and his response to my question today. I am requesting a late show.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): That's completely in order, and if you file the appropriate papers it will be done.

COMMENTS OF MINISTER OF HEALTH

Mr Bud Wildman (Algoma): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I won't prolong this, but I would like if you could, please, to review the Hansard of the exchange between the Minister of Health and the member for Windsor-Sandwich as it relates to standing order 23(

i) and determine whether or not the Minister of Health did in fact violate the order.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): I did not hear anything that the Minister of Health did that would contravene any of the rules in the standing orders. If you'd like to enlighten me with respect to exactly how you felt the minister broke these rules, I would be happy to hear your point of order. But I myself didn't hear them, and if you could illuminate me a little more I'd appreciate it.

Mr Wildman: If you look at page 18 of the standing orders, it says that it is out of order for any member to impute "false or unavowed motives to another member." If you will review Hansard, I would think it would be quite clear that the minister did in fact impute motives.

The Speaker: I say to the member for Algoma, I myself didn't hear it. I'll be happy to --

Mr Dominic Agostino (Hamilton East): Oh, come on, Chris.

The Speaker: I myself didn't hear it, I say to the member for Algoma. There are many comments across the floor that I don't hear. I'll be happy to review Hansard, if that's what's needed, and if there is any action to be taken I'll certainly do it.

The minister is here as we speak. I would ask the minister if he would --

Hon Jim Wilson (Minister of Health): On the same point of order, Mr Speaker: If I may have my two cents' worth on this, I in no way broke any rules in this House. I honestly answered the question, as I always do, and I think it's an absolutely cheap shot by the member for Algoma to raise it in such an underhanded way; I really do.

Mr John Gerretsen (Kingston and The Islands): Yes, you did.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order, order.

Mr Wildman: Mr Speaker, I rest my case: Now he's imputing my motives.

The Speaker: I will tell the members that I can always ask the Minister of Health to withdraw.

Ms Frances Lankin (Beaches-Woodbine): No ifs, ands or buts.

The Speaker: No ifs, ands or buts; I agree with the member for Beaches-Woodbine. But I will say that I did not hear anything that was out of order. If he chooses to withdraw, that is a decision that he can make. I didn't hear anything that was out of order, and it's not up to me to go back and check Hansard. If you'd like to bring it --

Interjection.

The Speaker: I'm asking for order. If you'd like to bring it back tomorrow -- you go through Hansard and bring it forward to this House and rise on a point of order -- you can. I've asked the Minister of Health if there's anything he feels he should withdraw. He says he hasn't. Then we will move on because I heard --

Mr David S. Cooke (Windsor-Riverside): It's your job. You could review Hansard.

The Speaker: Order.

Interjection.

The Speaker: Member from Hamilton, I want you to come to order. I want the members opposite to come to order on the opposition side.

Mr Gerry Phillips (Scarborough-Agincourt): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: To be helpful to you perhaps, I think the Minister of Health, in an answer to the member for Windsor-Sandwich, said that the member for Windsor-Sandwich was not trying to solve the problem, and I may be paraphrasing here, but merely to score political points. The question was asked in an attempt to solve a problem and the Minister of Health clearly imputed motives. I think the minister, who obviously came running back in slightly out of control, as periodically happens, could solve this problem by simply standing in his place and saying: "I'm sorry. I did impute a motive. That was improper."

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. With all due respect to the members of the Legislature, I will say to the members I did not hear the Minister of Health --

Mr Tony Ruprecht (Parkdale): All of us heard it.

The Speaker: Member for Parkdale, come to order, please. I did not hear the minister say anything that was out of order. I might add that if we are now at the stage where members opposite and the government side are going to start suggesting we withdraw things like, "You're not helping to solve the problem," may I suggest that we may well be here for a long, long time trying to withdraw and not withdraw. I didn't hear him impute motive. I asked the minister to withdraw. He said he didn't impute motive. He said he will not withdraw. It's up to the members of this Legislature to go over Hansard.

If you believe there is something in Hansard, you may deal with it in that vein. I did not hear it. I've asked the minister to withdraw. The question's been resolved. There will be a late show. Thank you very much.

Mrs Sandra Pupatello (Windsor-Sandwich): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I've requested a late show with the Minister of Health and I would suggest, given the nature of the discussion that we've just gone through, I would especially request the Minister of Health himself to be present for the late show so that he can deal with this matter.

The Speaker: That's not a point of order. There's nothing at all that the Speaker can do to ensure those things. It's well beyond the role.

Hon Michael D. Harris (Premier): On a point or order, Mr Speaker: I believe this is a point of order. It has to do with the 90-second suggestion you had for questions and answers. My first opportunity since you assumed the chair was in response to the first question of the day and I did not want to use up question period time or deal with your 90-second rule in paying my compliments to you, Mr Speaker, on your election as Speaker. I wished to wait beyond question period. Might I --

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. I can't hear the Premier.

Hon Mr Harris: Might I, not only in offering my congratulations on your election, say that from my observance, in your short time so far in your tenure you have conducted yourself with great grace and dignity and have my wholehearted support.

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): Mr Speaker, on a point of order: I don't like doing this in the House, but I'm wondering why the government has delayed the calling of a motion for the rotation of the Deputy Speaker. I expected it to be forthcoming today, in fact I expected it a while ago, but other events transpired. I'm wondering if the government knows why.

Hon David Johnson (Chair of the Management Board of Cabinet and Government House Leader): If I can respond to that, my apologies to the House leader of the opposition party. We did discuss this yesterday. It was a matter that was delayed because of the election of the new Speaker, but that has taken place, and I'll give my undertaking that it will be forthwith. Unfortunately, we weren't prepared to deal with it today, but hopefully tomorrow. Unless something comes up that prevents it, I'll give my undertaking that tomorrow will be the day.

PETITIONS

RENT REGULATION

Mr Alvin Curling (Scarborough North): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario and it reads:

"Whereas the Rent Control Act protects Ontario's 3.3 million tenants and allows for security and stability in their homes and communities; and

"Whereas lifting rent control in Ontario would leave tenants with uncontrollable rent increases and financial instability; and

"Whereas the Progressive Conservative government is considering changes to the Landlord and Tenant Act favouring easier and faster eviction by landlords;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to save rent control."

Many people have signed this petition and I affix my signature to this petition.

BEAR HUNTING

Mr Rosario Marchese (Fort York): I've got a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario and it's a petition to end the spring bear hunt.

"Whereas bears are hunted in the spring after they have come out of hibernation; and

"Whereas about 30% of the bears killed in the spring are female, some with cubs; and

"Whereas over 70% of the orphaned cubs do not survive the first year; and

"Whereas 95.3% of bears killed by non-resident hunters and 54% killed by resident hunters are killed over bait; and

"Whereas Ontario still allows the limited use of dogs in bear hunting; and

"Whereas bears are the only large mammals hunted in the spring; and

"Whereas bears are the only mammals that are hunted over bait; and

"Whereas there are only six states in the US which still allow a spring hunt;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Parliament of Ontario to amend the Game and Fish Act to prohibit the hunting of bears in the spring and to prohibit the use of baiting and dogs in all bear hunting activities."

I affix my signature to that.

TAX REDUCTION

Mr Gary L. Leadston (Kitchener-Wilmot): I have a petition to the Legislature of Ontario from the First United Church.

"We, the undersigned, request that the Legislature of Ontario not approve any tax cuts until the causes of poverty and unemployment are dealt with efficiently and until the province's debt and deficit are paid down."

HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING

Mr Rick Bartolucci (Sudbury): These petitions continue to flood my office.

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the Health Services Restructuring Commission has recommended the closure of two hospitals in Sudbury; and

"Whereas the overall number of available beds will be reduced by approximately 35%; and

"Whereas the reduction in beds will affect Sudbury's ability to remain the referral centre for health care in northeastern Ontario; and

"Whereas there will be a large number of layoffs in the health profession, impacting the quality of local health care and our Sudbury economy; and

"Whereas the global annual budget for Sudbury health care will be reduced by 25%;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to rescind the Health Services Restructuring Commission's recommendation to close two Sudbury acute care hospitals and return to the DHC model which is a two-site model."

I affix my name as I am in agreement with the petition.

OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY

Mr David Christopherson (Hamilton Centre): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario forwarded to me by Cathy Walker, the national health and safety director of the Canadian Auto Workers union. The petition is signed by thousands of auto workers, many of whom right now are engaged in a heroic struggle to protect their jobs in this province and across North America. I want to say that we stand behind those workers in their fight there, as we do here for health and safety in the province of Ontario. The petition reads as follows:

"To Premier Harris:

"We, the undersigned, oppose any attempts to erode the structure, services or funding of the Workers' Health and Safety Centre and the occupational health clinics for Ontario workers.

"We demand that education and training of Ontario workers continue in its present form through the Workers' Health and Safety Centre and that professional and technical expertise and advice continue to be provided through the occupational health clinics for Ontario workers."

On behalf of our caucus, I affix my name to this petition also.

BEAR HUNTING

Mr Joseph Spina (Brampton North): I have a petition to end the spring bear hunt. A few of these petitioners are from my riding; most of them are not. However, out of respect for my constituents I'd be pleased to present this petition. It is a reiteration of the petition of the member for Fort York. I'll just read the last statement.

"We, the undersigned, petition the Parliament of Ontario to amend the Game and Fish Act to prohibit the hunting of bears in the spring and to prohibit the use of baiting and dogs in all bear hunting activities."

I present this to the Legislature.

NORTH YORK BRANSON HOSPITAL

Mr Monte Kwinter (Wilson Heights): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

"Whereas the final report of the Metropolitan Toronto District Health Council hospital restructuring committee has recommended that North York Branson Hospital merge with York-Finch hospital; and

"Whereas this recommendation will remove emergency and inpatient services currently provided by North York Branson Hospital, which will seriously jeopardize medical care and the quality of health for the growing population which the hospital serves, many being elderly people who in numerous cases require treatment for life-threatening medical conditions;

"We petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to reject the recommendation contained within the final report of the Metropolitan Toronto District Health Council hospital restructuring committee as it pertains to North York Branson Hospital, so that it retains, at minimum, emergency and inpatient services."

I've affixed my signature.

NURSING STAFF

Mrs Marion Boyd (London Centre): I have a petition from nurses in the community of London which is, as you may know, a regional health centre. The petition to the Legislative Assembly reads as follows:

"Whereas members of this community are writing to you in hopes of gaining your support with regard to the proposed wage rollbacks of nursing staff; and

"Whereas as concerned health care professionals we have been affected by many changes throughout the past several years. With layoffs, wage freezes and increasing responsibility, there has been a direct impact on both patient care and nursing as a profession; and

"Whereas the new proposal by the Ontario Hospital Association of a 20.3% wage rollback has brought forth many concerns, frustrations and disappointments. With the three-to four-year wage freeze from the social contract nurses have, in essence, already taken a rollback due to increased tax and a higher cost of living. We understand that everyone has to take

part in the solution and nurses have accepted this. In fact, we have adapted and worked together towards a better health care system. A 20.3% wage cut is not the way to continue this process; and

"Whereas we, the undersigned registered nurses have been targeted here. We are the people that the public see on their travels through the health care system. We work weekends, holidays and nights. We care for the public on a daily basis. We are the largest population of staff providing care for the public. A cut such as this devalues the service we provide. Nursing is a female-dominated profession and as such is an easy target for the cutbacks and wage rollbacks;

"This profession is asking for your help and support."

This is signed by many hundreds of nurses in the London area, and I'm proud to affix my signature.

USER FEES

Mr Tony Ruprecht (Parkdale): I keep getting petitions on the $2 user fee against seniors and disabled persons. This one reads:

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the Ministry of Health has started to charge seniors a $2 user fee for each prescription filled since July 1996; and

"Whereas seniors on a fixed income do not significantly benefit from the income tax savings created by this user fee copayment or from other non-health user fees; and

"Whereas the perceived savings to health care from the $2 copayment fee will not compensate for the suffering and misery caused by this user fee or the painstaking task involved to fill out the application forms; and

"Whereas the current Ontario Minister of Health, Jim Wilson, promised as an opposition MPP in a July 5, 1993, letter to Ontario pharmacists that his party would not endorse legislation that will punish patients to the detriment of health care in Ontario;

"Therefore, we, the undersigned Ontario residents, strongly urge the government to repeal this user fee plan, because the tax-saving user fee concept is not fair, is not sensitive, nor is it accessible to low-income or fixed-income seniors; and lest we forget, our province's seniors have paid their dues by collectively contributing to the social, economic, moral and political fabric of Canada."

I'm affixing my signature to this document.

NON-PROFIT HOUSING

Mrs Marion Boyd (London Centre): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

"Whereas the Ontario government has clearly indicated that it `wants to get out of the housing business'; and

"Whereas the Ontario government is reviewing the legal contracts and budgets of every co-op housing project in the province; and

"Whereas the Ontario government has announced plans to make huge cuts to co-op and non-profit housing funding; and

"Whereas the Ontario government wants to replace affordable housing with subsidies to private landlords; and

"Whereas co-op housing is a proven success in providing affordable homes owned and managed by the people who live in them; and

"Whereas the actions of the Ontario government threaten to destroy stable, well-maintained communities which have been built over the last quarter of a century and the investment all Ontarians have made in this type of affordable social housing;

"We request that the Ontario government sit down with the co-op housing sector to negotiate a deal which will ensure the long-term financial viability of housing co-ops and the continuance of rent-geared-to-income assistance upon which thousands of co-op members depend and which will promote greater responsibility for administration by the co-op housing sector and less interference by the government in the day-to-day operations of housing co-ops."

This is signed by over 200 people involved in co-op housing in the London area, and I'm proud to affix my signature.

MANDATORY INQUESTS

Mr Rick Bartolucci (Sudbury): My office continues to get many petitions which state:

"To the Honourable Solicitor General and Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the Progressive Conservative government of Ontario has decided to scrap mandatory inquests as a result of fatalities in the mining and construction industry; and

"Whereas this unprecedented and callous decision sets workplace safety back 20 years;

"We, the undersigned, request that Solicitor General Bob Runciman and the Legislative Assembly, on behalf of all workers in the mining and construction industry, reverse his decision to remove mandatory inquests from the Coroners Act of Ontario."

I affix my signature as I am in agreement.

VIDEO LOTTERY TERMINALS

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): I have a petition that reads as follows:

"To the government of Ontario:

"Since video lottery terminals will contribute to gambling addiction in Ontario and the resulting breakup of families, spousal and child abuse and crimes such as embezzlement and robbery;

"Since the introduction of video lottery terminals across Ontario will provide those addicted to gambling with widespread temptation and will attract young people to a vice which will adversely affect their lives for many years to come;

"Since the introduction of these gambling machines across our province is designed to gain revenue for the government at the expense of the poor, the vulnerable and the desperate in order that the government can cut income tax, to the greatest benefit of those with the highest income;

"Since the placement of video lottery terminals in bars in Ontario and in permanent casinos in various locations across the province represents an escalation of gambling opportunities; and

"Since Premier Harris and Finance Minister Eves were so critical of the provincial government becoming involved in further gambling ventures and making the government more dependent on gambling revenues to maintain government operations;

"We, the undersigned, call upon Premier Harris and the government of Ontario to reconsider its announced decision to introduce the most insidious form of gambling, video lottery terminals, to restaurants and bars in the province."

I affix my signature as I'm in agreement with this petition.

PRIVATIZATION OF PUBLIC SERVICES

Mrs Marion Boyd (London Centre): "To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the Ontario government plans to sell off public services to corporations who will run them for profit; and

"Whereas after the corporate takeover it will be strictly user-pay for the services we now depend on; and

"Whereas our clean air and water standards and worker safety rules are being relaxed because corporations don't like rules that interfere with profits; and

"Whereas privatization is being sold as a way to save tax dollars, even though large companies pay little or no taxes while individual Canadians pay most of the total tax bill; and

"Whereas Bill 7 was introduced in the interests of facilitating its privatization agenda by stripping public service workers of their rights to retain fair working conditions when services are transferred or privatized;

"We, the following citizens of Ontario, beg leave to petition the Parliament of Ontario to abandon the sell-off of Ontario's public services and reinstate successor rights for public service employees."

This is signed by people from all three ridings in the city of London, and I'm proud to affix my signature.

DELLCREST CHILDREN'S CENTRE

Mr Tony Ruprecht (Parkdale): I keep getting petitions against the Dellcrest organization. This is addressed to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

"Whereas the Dellcrest Children's Centre is planning to open a 10-bed open custody residence for troubled kids at 182 Dowling Avenue in south Parkdale; and

"Whereas the residence is an inappropriate site for the rehabilitation of troubled kids because it is within walking distance to illicit drug and prostitution activities; a large number of unsupervised and supervised rooming-houses that are home to ex-psychiatric patients, parolees and our society's most vulnerable and ostracized members; and a number of licensed establishments that have been charged with various liquor infractions; and

"Whereas the Ministry of Correctional Services and the Dellcrest Children's Centre have decided not to hold open discussions with our community prior to the purchase of this house for the purpose of an open custody residence; and

"Whereas the decision to relocate also expresses a total lack of regard towards our community's consistent and well-documented wishes for the Ontario government to stop the creation or relocation of additional social service programs in an area that is already oversaturated with health and social services for disadvantaged, troubled or disfranchised people,

"We therefore, the undersigned local residents and business owners, urge the Ministry of the Solicitor General and Correctional Services to suspend plans to relocate the open custody residence for troubled kids until a full review of the Dellcrest Children's Centre's decision can be conducted, and explore with us alternative locations which are more appropriate."

I will sign my name to this petition.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

UNIVERSITY OF ST JEROME'S COLLEGE ACT, 1996

Mr Wettlaufer moved first reading of the following bill:

Bill Pr72,

An Act respecting the University of St Jerome's College.

The Acting Speaker (Mr Gilles E. Morin): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

COURTS IMPROVEMENT ACT, 1996 / LOI DE 1996 SUR L'AMÉLIORATION DES TRIBUNAUX

Resuming the adjourned debate on the motion for second reading of Bill 79,

An Act to improve Ontario's court system, to respond to concerns raised by charities and their volunteers and to improve various statutes relating to the administration of justice / Projet de loi 79, Loi visant à améliorer le système judiciaire de l'Ontario, à répondre aux préoccupations exprimées par les oeuvres de bienfaisance et leurs bénévoles, et à améliorer diverses lois relatives à l'administration de la justice.

Mr Sean G. Conway (Renfrew North): I adjourned the debate last evening and I'd like to take the opportunity this afternoon to make some remarks with respect to Bill 79 currently before the House with a wonderfully felicitous title,

An Act to improve Ontario's court system.

Hon Noble Villeneuve (Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs, minister responsible for francophone affairs): Music to my ears.

Mr Conway: I'm glad the Minister of Agriculture says it is music to his ears because I think all honourable members would hope and pray that in fact it is that. I want to say in the presence of the Attorney General that there are many aspects of the bill as presented that are highly commendable and certainly let it be clear I'm standing in support of Bill 79.

I support it if for no other reason than that critical

section of the bill which deals with judicial nomenclature. I can't imagine that Charles Harnick will in the course of his term as minister of justice do anything that will make him a happier Attorney General, as far as the judges of Ontario are concerned, as that part of Bill 79 which now allows that every judge in the province, whether it is the lowly former magistrate or the highest of Ontario's superior court judges, can all be styled Madam or Mr Justice. I want to commend Charles Harnick for that. I'm sure that on behalf of the scores of judges, from the provincial court bench to the highest court in the land, there is no little bit of joy that he has managed to do this.

I can well remember 10 years ago, when that nefarious Ian Scott in his court reform arranged things in so unhappy a way as to leave a battery of former High Court judges rather unclear and very much unsatisfied in the styling of themselves and their judicial roles. So I say again on behalf of those men and women of the judiciary, who clearly can't be here, that I'm sure they would want me to say on their behalf that no greater effort has the Attorney General expended than by providing in this legislation that nomenclature which now allows all judges in Ontario, high, medium or low, as we used to say, to be styled Madam or Mr Justice.

I say that somewhat facetiously because I have a great regard for judges, and we are very well served by our judges, but there are times when, in social dialogue with retired judges, I find it quite extraordinary the extent to which some seem to be interested in what the good people of Moose Creek and Willowdale might consider a mere trifle. But let me say finally, and again, that Charles Harnick has certainly put that subject to rest, and we have in Bill 79 a very important piece of amendment which makes it possible now for everyone to be styled Madam or Mr Justice.

There is also intended in Bill 79 a change that allows for the public trustee to do certain things without the rather elaborate process of court reference that has been in place for some time. I have to take the word of my colleagues who are more familiar with the legal and judicial intricacies than I that this is a good thing. I certainly hope it's a good thing.

Let me use this opportunity this afternoon to say to my friend the Attorney General that I continue to hear from too many of my constituents, whom I believe to be fair and serious in their criticism, that we still have a lot of work to do in cleaning up the office of the public trustee. Too many good people with too many very serious family concerns and problems find themselves in an endless and costly and enormously frustrating tangle with the office of the public trustee.

I know in my own family we've had some of that experience. When I think of what one of my family members, who was faced with an enormous personal tragedy, has had to endure over eight or 10 years, I've got to tell you that is not something I would want to visit on anyone else, and it's not something of which I'm very proud, given the fact that I, as one of the members of the assembly, have some responsibility for providing better answers, quite frankly, than I've been able to provide, not just to my aunt but to other people who have complained over the last number of years.

So I would encourage the Attorney General to be as vigilant and as vigorous as he can, and I know it's certainly his intention to do that, to clean up some of those problems that have bedevilled the office of the public trustee over the last number of years. I'm not really now talking about major policy issues; it's just routine administration. It seems to be --

Hon Charles Harnick (Attorney General, minister responsible for native affairs): The attitude.

Mr Conway: The Attorney General says it's the attitude, and perhaps it is. I myself haven't had a great deal of experience, but as I say, I am very concerned about the experiences that some very good constituents, including some of my close relatives, have had with an office of government that simply does not appear to be as efficient as we would expect.

We have as well in Bill 79 the creation of a new office, case management master. I'm told by my friends in the Liberal Party --

Mr Gilles Bisson (Cochrane South): You have friends in the Liberal Party?

Mr Conway: I have friends in the Liberal Party, I say to Mr Bisson. I sound like Neville Chamberlain when I say that, and he found out where his friends really were.

The court management question is obviously an important one. I support this philosophically and conceptually. I only hope that as an administrative mechanism it works, because let me say, in a rather bipartisan fashion, that with some of what other architects of court reform have promised -- these were not people associated with the current party in government -- there has been much less, I would say decidedly less, performance than there has been promise.

Out in the county towns of eastern Ontario, where his seatmates the top cop and the Minister of Agriculture and I live, I hear, and I suspect they hear, that things aren't as efficient or as effective as some of the advertisements that were offered eight, 10 and 15 years ago.

I'm hopeful that the new attorney, with a fresh perspective, is going to learn from that experience and -- not guarantee; there are no guarantees in this business and in life generally. I expect that we are going to have some positive results from these new masters to be appointed to Ottawa, Windsor and Toronto.

Let me be a little confessional about case management and court affairs. Here I tread very personally, because I went to court this summer. I'm not a lawyer. I've probably been to court on very few occasions previously, mostly on ceremonial occasions to see some friends installed as judges. I went to court this summer as a private citizen. It was a matter relating to the Highway Traffic Act and I won. That's not the point. It was the provincial court in Cobourg, Ontario. I think my reaction was probably the reaction of a lot of people who are not normally in court, and I suspect that's a lot of people.

Hon Mr Villeneuve: I hope so.

Mr Conway: The Minister of Agriculture says, "I hope so"; I do too. I was astonished at what I experienced on that beautiful July day in that marvellous Ontario town and that gorgeous old Victoria Hall in Cobourg. Somebody the other day asked, "What was it like?" I said: "Do you know what it was like? It was like a combination of a Moroccan bazaar and the old Toronto bus terminal on a busy Friday afternoon of a long weekend." That's what it was like. It was an astonishing place, a very important public place.

Members of the assembly who are lawyers probably say, "He's just stating the obvious." It wasn't obvious to me. It was absolutely astonishing. I'm not kidding, a Moroccan bazaar, the old bus terminal; people coming and going and everyone looking for everyone else.

Let me say -- I hope I'm not breaching some edict of the conflict of interest act, and I mean this as no comment on my own rather favourable result -- that I couldn't believe how patient the provincial court judge was that day in the midst of what seemed often near chaos. There were scores of people, regular folks. This would be their experience with the courts of the land.

There were lawyers coming and going, police officers and court officers coming and going -- "Are you Morin?" "No," "Are you Harnick?" "Maybe," "Are you Conway?" "Yes" -- trying to figure out who was on first and what was on second, and the poor judge and the court clerk trying to make something of this. Remarkably, miraculously, they did, to the great credit of that court official and the judge and, to be fair, certain of the lawyers present. But incroyable, it was absolutely astonishing. I cannot imagine that in 1996 this was a routine day, and I checked. I asked.

I said, "This must be remarkable." "No, no, it's even better on certain of these other days."

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): Was this Judge Guzzo?

Mr Conway: It had nothing to do with our illustrious colleague the member for Ottawa-Rideau.

I say this very seriously because we are asked, and I'm proud to come here today and support Bill 79 because it suggests that we are going to make this system more efficient. We had bloody well better make it more efficient and we all have a responsibility. Again I wish I were more knowledgeable about the legal trade because like my friend from Moose Creek I think I spied a few lawyers who were perhaps more interested in running the clock than cleaning the docket -- only a suspicion, I say.

One of the feelings, one of the impressions I had to a lot of this was that there is a third party to all of this, namely, the taxpayer. We're paying a lot of the freight, we're paying for the buildings, mostly provincially but with some municipal support, I'm sure, as well. As one now rather senior member of this Legislature I was astonished and concerned by the chaos of that day, so I say to the Attorney General, you will have my support for Bill 79 and any other measures that can be shown to deal with that problem.

As a matter of fact, over the course of the next few weeks I am going to make it my business to visit a couple of courts here in Toronto and perhaps some place else in the province, probably my own town, although my constituents will think the fateful day has finally arrived.

Interjection.

Mr Conway: Yes, exactly. I'm not kidding when I say this. It is one of those things. It's like middle-aged men who have all these opinions about the health care system, and when you ask them, "When was your last personal encounter with the system?" they'll tell you, "Twenty-seven years ago, when I cracked a rib playing hockey in Brockville." Of course they're full of advice as to what's wrong with the system, but when you ask them, "When did you last sit at an emergency department in a hospital?" -- "Oh, my wife did or my sister did, but no, I haven't been there." I'll tell you that being there, experiencing the reality is a very real education, and it was for me on that occasion.

There is good news. In the Ottawa area, and I might be treading very indelicately here, I heard from sources that under the very capable leadership of the senior judge, James Chadwick, there has been very considerable progress made in cleaning up one of the worst dockets in the country.

Hon Mr Harnick: Big time.

Mr Conway: And the attorney agrees. He said, "Big time."

Let me stand in my place and congratulate Mr Justice Chadwick and all the judges and court officials and administrators who have done that. Some day I might like to go to a legislative hearing to have somebody explain to me what made that work. I have some sources but they may not be entirely unbiased.

Mrs Marion Boyd (London Centre): Should we tell him?

Mr Conway: The former Attorney General, the member for London Centre, said, "Should we tell him?" Yes, Marion, and you'll have two minutes when I sit down. I'm very interested. All I know is that for many years in the 1970s and 1980s I used to hear and I used to read in the national capital press about the mess in the Ottawa courts, that the dockets were endless, the delays --

Mr Bradley: Were there any barbers appointed?

Mr Conway: Listen, I'm not here to engage in that kind of politics, Mr Bradley. I will leave that for another day.

I'm serious, because it was a mess and it's much better now. Apparently some people under the leadership of Mr Justice Chadwick made real progress. How do we do that elsewhere? I'd be very interested because as a Legislature we've got to encourage and support that. I repeat that most of the judges I have known are people of outstanding ability and very real commitment, but I'll tell you I hear from certain public servants that over the years and decades the independence of the judiciary has sometimes led to some not very good attitudes around administrative efficiencies.

I don't expect sainthood from anybody on the bench, but we all have a responsibility to make sure that the system is efficient and that there is good public access.

Let me say in this respect that Bill 79 gives me an opportunity to flag some concerns that became public a few months ago when three of the country's most outstanding jurists -- Charles Dubin, Roy McMurtry and Sidney Linden -- wrote a letter to the Attorney General of Ontario raising very serious concerns, if not alarms, about what government cuts were going to do, as they saw it, to the administration of justice, and quoting Mr McMurtry, a former Attorney General and now the Chief Justice of the Ontario Court (General Division) --

Hon Mr Harnick: Court of Appeal.

Mr Conway: Sorry, he's been promoted since: Chief Justice of the Court of Appeal. Quoting Justice McMurtry from that --

Mrs Boyd: Court of Appeal of Ontario.

Mr Conway: Of Ontario; thank you, Marion. It's very important to get these titles clear. McMurtry back in the late winter of this year said, "The government of Ontario is actively pursuing policy options that will seriously limit access to the publicly funded court system.

"The central irony," he went on to say, "is that we are gathered here at this conference this weekend to talk about improving our civil court system at a time when ill-considered and unrealistic budget cuts threaten the ability of our civil justice system to survive, let alone improve its service to the public. Society simply cannot function," Justice McMurtry went on, "without a system that allows people to have their disputes resolved and determined in an orderly and effective fashion. The alternative is civil chaos and perhaps even violence."

That's not just anybody. That's a Chief Justice and a former Attorney General of Ontario.

I don't expect the current Attorney General to engage this debate fully for a variety of reasons that we can all imagine, but I simply do on second reading of Bill 79 want to recall those admonitions, those concerns, some genuine alarm from people who are not accustomed to entering the public debate. In fact, I can't remember in recent times when not one but three chief justices sallied forth into the public domain and said, "There is a problem." Chief Justice Antonio Lamer has been doing something of the same, if in a rather different context, federally.

Legislators, who have a responsibility to Parliament and the province beyond, I think have an obligation to draw to the Attorney General's attention these kinds of concerns and to ensure that no bean counter loose in the department of justice or worse still in government services is in fact pursuing an agenda --

Mr Ted Chudleigh (Halton North): White beans.

Mr Conway: White beans. I say seriously that these concerns are going to have to be dealt with and I expect that in fact they are.

Just a couple of other miscellaneous items. Speaking about spending money -- and I know times are tough. I see where there was an order paper question put down by one of my colleagues a few months ago and it had to do with court improvements to the magnificent old courthouse in Lanark county at Perth. The answer comes back from Dave Johnson and it just absolutely stupefies people I know in eastern Ontario. You're going to spend 1.3 million bucks over a three-year period on the Lanark county courthouse. Well, my friends say yes, certain things need to be done, but 1.3 million bucks?

That tells them two things: that times are not nearly as tough as Ernie Eves would have you believe, and more importantly, that there are some bureaucrats loose in the department of the Attorney General and elsewhere in government who are still determined to prove that by that most important measure in government bureaucracies, namely, the amount and depth of broadloom in and around your office, they're still in charge.

That's $1.3 million dollars being spent on a building I don't know particularly well. I've been in. It's a beautiful building. But people who are in it all the time tell me: "How is it possible? In what public interest? Yes, some renovations, some repairs, but $1.3 million?"

No. Let me be frank with you; let me be very frank. These people say to me, "You know, Conway, this is exactly what you get with some of the court reform that you and your friend Scott were all about 10 years ago." I raise this concern quite frankly in a way almost as self-criticism. This really galls me because there's probably more to the story than I've been told, but I've got to tell you, all politics is local, and when I go to Lanark county, ably represented by my friend Leo Jordan, people I know, Liberals, Tories and independents, say, "What on earth is going on at that courthouse?" In fact, the reason the question --

Mr Bruce Crozier (Essex South): Leo probably doesn't know.

Mr Conway: I can't speak for the member from Lanark, but what's our message? "Times are tough. We've got to deal with the deficit. We've got to maintain services." I think we all know that.

It's just like the Office of the Assembly. Well, I won't get into that debate, but I'm very worried that when we create these kinds of regionalized administrative mechanisms -- the poor old Attorney General has got plenty to worry about, but I know from my time in politics and my life experience, short as it is, that the more regionalized you make these functions, the more likely the bureaucracy is going to be centralized and harder to manage. I hope that when we create the new court masters, we in fact get the efficiency without the kind of turf that I think is probably part of the concern with the Lanark county courthouse renovation.

I could name others. I can name others not in this particular period of time. You know, I talk about turf, and I guess this is perhaps straying a bit. I'm not going to spend too much time because there will be another time when I can talk about some of this.

I spent some of my late summer reading Archie Campbell's incredible report about the Bernardo case. Bill 79 is not the place to debate that at any great length, but I'm going to tell you one thing. My blood pressure is still twice what it should be when I think about the kinds of turf wars that Mr Justice Campbell unearthed. It is a scandal of the most outrageous kind when people in police forces -- and I raise this subject in the context of turf wars.

One could not imagine, surely, a greater public interest that ought to draw everyone together in common cause to the one end result, namely, getting that criminal or group of criminals that did those horrible things to those innocent young people. What we have in 450 pages of Mr Justice Campbell's report is, I submit, one of the most detailed and disturbing accounts of a turf war that almost joyfully -- let me rephrase -- that almost mindlessly set out to subvert the common good, the public interest. It reads like some kind of fiction, some kind of novel, and we'll talk about that another time.

I don't blame anybody here for that, but we set general policy, we fund organizations. All of us expect, whether it's courts administration or policing or the criminal justice system, that reasonable men and women, particularly when they're faced with an outrage such as we saw in the Bernardo case, are going to drop everything, including all of or most of the barriers, and marshal their efforts in common cause to the end that we all desire.

I simply raise this in the context of Bill 79 because it has been my experience that within the administration of justice there is turf, as you would expect to find it. My opening remarks about nomenclature are perhaps the most innocent and delightful example of that. I know because I've made the odd mistake and was quickly reprimanded for getting the titles wrong. As we move forward in different circumstances, I think we all have a desire to see that these barriers and these turf wars are dealt with and lessened and improved in all reasonable ways.

I want to make a final comment about something again involving judges, because this bill deals with judges. I don't know how many people have read this book, but those of you with an interest in justice affairs ought to read this book because you've paid, through I'm sure some public subvention, for part of this. We have something in this province now called the Osgoode Society. Mr Justice McMurtry is very actively involved, and they've done some fabulous work in terms of highlighting the administration of justice in celebrated cases and such like.

This is a book published this summer by the Osgoode Society by William Kaplan called Bad Judgement: The Case of Mr Justice Leo A. Landreville. Some of you who are a bit older than I will remember the case specifically. I don't want to get into that, but what is astonishing about Mr Kaplan's analysis is that -- and remember, Landreville was the former mayor of Sudbury who accepted some shares from Northern Ontario Natural Gas. There was all kinds of controversy around conflict of interest.

Those questions did not arise until after Landreville had left the mayor's chair in Sudbury and had gone on to the Ontario Supreme Court. He was then the subject of concerted pressure to get him off the bench, and in the end he was removed.

It was a case with some of the qualities of the Bienvenue case that we've just seen in Quebec. In both the Landreville case and, just last month, the Bienvenue case, Parliament was pushed to the very brink of having to exercise its prerogative to remove a superior court judge. Landreville backed down at the very last minute, as did Bienvenue.

What is interesting, and the reason I raise this story, is what Mr Kaplan, a noted author, tells us about the mindset of the people at the law society, who did their own investigation into the Landreville case, and then the royal commission appointed by the federal Minister of Justice, Mr Cardin, headed by probably the most distinguished jurist of the time, Ivan Rand.

Very briefly, what the Kaplan book tells us is that the law society and the Rand royal commission basically hung Leo Landreville out to dry, not primarily for what he did -- and in my view he was guilty politically of a serious miscalculation and misconduct. It was bad judgement, without a doubt. But that wasn't the bad judgement and the misconduct for which Leo Landreville was charged and convicted by, in particular, Mr Justice Rand. They just didn't like him.

They just didn't like this pushy Frenchman with this flashy apparel and this, dare I say it, Jayne Mansfield kind of wife and the Mexican -- I mean, it's a very interesting story. For neophytes of the judicial system like myself to read a story like this is to be reminded that we need an important and independent judiciary. But I'll tell you, they are not always acting, particularly in cases like the Landreville case, with quite the motivation that we might have expected.

Let me just say to the Attorney General,