IS SN 0542··-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 31-32 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXI No. 102A - 2:00 p.m., THURSDAY, 7 JULY, 1983. Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer, Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (P ete) ANSTE TT , Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK , Hon. John M. CARROLL , Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN , Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Hon. Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Dou

g) GRAH AM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK , Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHI LL, Hon. Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNS TON, J. Frank KOST YRA, Hon. Eugene KOV NATS, Abe LEC UYER, Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNE SS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally ME RCIE R, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORD MAN, Rurik (R ic) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHA RD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER , Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, Hon. John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS , Conrad SCHROEDER , Hon. Vi c SCOTT, Don SHERM AN, L.R. (B ud) SMITH, Hon.

Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Hon. Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste. Rose Springfield Thor::pson La Verendrye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ellice Churchill St. Bon iface Riel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Ni akwa Radisson Cha rleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin-Russell St.

Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle �,\ountain Burrov·s Ross1nere lnkster Fort Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flon Interlake Lac du Bonnet St. Vital Party ND P NDP NOP PC PC PC NOP IND ND P NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP PC PC PC NOP NOP PC NOP PC PC PC NOP NOP NOP PC PC NOP PC ND P PC NOP NOP PC PC PC PC PC PC NOP NOP ND P NOP NOP PC NOP NOP NOP PC NOP PC NOP NOP NOP NOP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 7 July, 1983. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER , Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Petitions . . Reading and Receiving Petitions. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River East. MR. P. EYLER: Mr. Sp eaker, I beg to present the Sixth Report of the Stan ding Comm ittee on Law Amendments. MR. CLERK , W. Remnant: Your Standing Comm ittee on Law Amendments beg leave to present the following as their Sixth Report. Your Committee met on Thursda y, July 7, 1983 and heard representations with respect to the Bills before the Committee as follows: Bill No. 72 The Wild Rice Act;

Loi sur le riz sauvage. Mr. Sid ney Green, Q.C. Bill No. 78

An Act to amend The Manitoba Telephone Act. Mr. Randy Moffat, President of Winnipeg Videon. Bill No. 91

An Act to amend The Real Estate Brokers Act. Mr. A. A. Deleeuw, President of Winnip eg Real Estate Board. Your Comm itte has considered: Bill No. 80

An Act to amend The Civil Service Superannuation Act. Bill No. 84

An Act to amend The Residential Rent Regulation Act; Loi modifiant la

loi sur le controls du loyer des locaux d'habitation. Bill No. 91

An Act to amend The Real Estate Brokers Act. And ha s ag reed to report the same without amendment. Your Commit tee has also considered: Bill No. 26

An Act to amend The Financial Administation Act. And ha s agr eed to report the same with an amendment. All of which is respectfully submit ted. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River East. MR. P. EYLER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Mem ber for St. Johns, that the report of the Comm ittee be received. MOTION prese nted and carried. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Spea ker, I have the honour to table the 1982-83 Annual Reports of the Manitoba Health Services Commission, and also of the Manitoba Health Research Council. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills ... INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before we reach Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the ga llery wher e we are pleased to welcome the Honourable Orlin Hanson who is the State Representative from District 3 of the State House of Representatives in North Dakota. On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afternoon.

ORAL QUESTIONS Government Policy - Business of the House MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Deputy Premier. There is a great deal of business before the House and to put it charitabl y, Sir , the busi ness of the House has not been proceeding as smoothly as it might be if the busi ness were a little better ordered by the government, and I ask the Deputy Premier what action the government intends to take to attempt to make busi ness flow a little more smoothly? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Economic Development. HON. M. SMITH: Mr.

Speaker , there is a great deal of business before the House because there's a great deal that the government wishes to accomplish. We'll be calling bills as efficiently as we can and we know we can count on the co-operation of the opposition. Speed-up resol ution MR. B. RANSOM: Mr.

Spea ker, we find ours elves still dealing with issues that could have been dealt with as early as last December in terms of commi ttee meetings, and we find ourselves in Law Amendments Comm ittee not being able to deal with bills because the government has not ordered the affairs of Mi nisters appropria tely in order to be able to deal with it. So while the opposition 4160

Thursday, 7 July, 1983 has been facilitating busi ness to this point, can I ask the Acting Deputy Minister if she has any intention of seeing the normal Speed-up motion introduced which, at this time of the year, helps to facilitate the flow of business? HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Spea ker, all those options are open to us and when we deem it appropria te, we will take action. Government policy ·- Business of the House MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Acting Government House Leader.

In view of the fact that this morning in Law Amendments Comm ittee the comm ittee was only able to deal with four out of 14 bills on the Order Paper and it had to adjourn three-quarters of an hour early, will the Acting Government House Leader consider the possibil ity of better ordering the affairs of the House so that Ministers responsible for the bills which are before the comm ittee, are there in attendance, able to deal with them, able to answer questions and members don't have to waste time coming out to meetings that can't function properly because the required personnel are not there? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I do wish to confirm tha t at the mee ting of Law Amendm ents Committee it was not possible to deal with all the bills that were referred to it because we, as a government, and the opposition is participating as well, is involved in a number of meetings and it is true we are very busy. We are busy as a Legislature and I am not critical of the opposition nor am I critical of my colleagues in government who are trying to do so many things.

A number of the bills that otherwise would have been dealt with at Law Amendments Committee were not proceeded with because opposition critics were not available. We are going to expedite the work of the House but we're going to accommodate members as well. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker , that's true, that there was one bill that couldn't be dealt with because a critic wasn't there. Ten out of 14 bills could not be dealt with this morning because of the ordering of busi ness by this government of calling concurrent meeti ngs.

My question is, when is the government and the Acting House Leader going to get its act together so that we can start getting the busi ness of the House done in some reasonable time, for the betterment of the people of Manitoba? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, we are going to proceed with the orderly presentation of bills to the House.

There have been quite a number of bills that have been presented; they were presented as early as December of last year, to accommodate the general publi c and also, particularly to allow the opposition to 4161 have lots of time to prepare arguments and some of those bills have not seen much debate, Mr. Speaker. Some of them have seen far too much debate by the opposition but that's a matter for them to decide; but there's a number of bills that they chose to ignore and they refuse to want to participa te in the debate. Mr.

Speaker, there are a number of bills for example, Bill No. 87, Bill No. 88, that the opposition has not seen fit to be interested in. We have accommodated the opposition, Mr. Speaker, by allowing them to indicate bills on which they have mem bers ready to speak. Weli, Mr. Speaker, the accommodation can only go on so long. We want to move the legislation before this House and on some of the bills they've been stalling. Bilingualism in Manitoba MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Spe aker, I have a question for the First Minister.

In view of the state of further degenerating chaos into which this government has got the ordering of its busi ness in this Legislative Assembly; in view of the fact that today ;i1e government is running two propaganda meetings in support of its amendment proposal to

Section 23 of The Manitoba Act thereby necessi tating the pr esence th ere of go vernment Minis ters and of opposition critics and so on; in view of the fact that the comm ittee as we have heard this morning, was not able to carry out its busi ness because of concurrent commit tees sitting at the same time; we don't know this afternoon whether the House is going to be sitting tonight or whether the committee is going to be sitting - they tell us now the House is going to be sitting - Mr.

Speaker, does the First Mini ster need any further evidence to prove the necessity of having the Constitutional Resolution on Bilingualism referred to an intersessional comm ittee so that neither the people of Manitoba nor indeed this Legislature will be hurried or forced into a situation of disorder such as we are seeing every day with the conduct of government business? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Fir st Minis ter. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Spea ker, I don't think it's a question of disorder not to have proceeded into speed­ up.

I recall in previous sessions being in speed-up, sitting at 1 o'clock, 2 o'clock, 3 o'clock, 4 o'clock in the morning trying to deal with legislation that in some instances I felt was not being dealt with properly because of some frantic hurr y to adjourn, to get out of the House and to become a matter of legislation by '" 'Y of exhaustion. I know that honourable members are anxious to get out of the House but I think it's impor tant that we take our time; that we review the legislation; that we're prepared to discuss the legislation and analyze it careful ly.

At the same time, I think it's impo rtant that the informational meetings take place; that the Attorney­ General is now taking place with members of the public. Mr. Speaker , I know it's nice to talk about haste and rushing and proces sing, but we're on very very serious matters per taining to the busi ness of the people of the

Thursday, 7 July, 1983 Province of Manitoba. I think a little time in so doing isn't going to really frustrate anybody unduly. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speak er, I thank the First Minister for agreeing to my case; namely, that the constitutional amendment should not be hurried in any way at all, Mr. Speaker . Unlike the Mem ber for Radisson, I don't have obsessions. He is the zealot and at times the fool who demonstrates that to all and sundry is in this House when the TV camera is on. Mr. Speak er, will the First Minister then come back to the question that was asked, not to the one that they chose to manufacture?

Would it not make sense in the interests of the people of Manitoba, in the interests of this Leg islature, proceeding in an unhu rried way with respect to the constitutional amendment which, contrary to the opinion of some of the backbenchers, is a very important matter, one that will bind this province for generations to come? Can he not see now the merit of having an intersessional committee to deal with this? In view of the fact, Mr.

Speaker, as we were just informed at noon, that at the propaganda meetings the Attorney-General is conducting on behalf of this particular resolution, the public were allo wed five minutes each, after the Attorney-General had given a one-hour dissertation on the matter. Now that's not democracy; that's not the way to organize anything that is connected with this House. Let's have an unh urried comm it tee hearing on this ma tter intersessional ly. Will the First Minister not agree that would be in the publi c interest? Will he not make that concession to the people of Manitoba? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Spea ker, if there is indeed any frustration and any temper that unnecessarily creates difficulty in this Hous e it is when one member of this House refers to another member of this House as a zealot or as a fool. Mr. Speaker , I think that is the type of intemperate language that is unduly frustrating the normal course of proceedings of this Cham ber. Mr.

Speaker; I'm answering the question but I think it would be remiss for me to not make reference to the remark which was included in the question by the Leader of the Opposition which was intemperate and demonstrates, indeed, the nub of much of the difficulty that we are being confronted with insofar as proper process ing ·Of the busi ness of the Cham ber. Mr. Spea ker, I was not aware that there was any undue hurry pertaining to the Constitutional Resolution.

The informational meetings will take place; there will be debate in this Chamber; there will be a legislative commit tee that will receive briefs from the members of the public and we will proceed in due course with the debate. The legisla tive committee and I was not aware that we were in any particular undue haste or hu rry. HON. S. LYON: Well, Mr. Sp eaker, the First Minis ter can attempt all he wishes to deny the existence of reali ty.

The reality of life in this Legislature is that the Legislature is slowly breaking down because of the inabili ty of this government to order the business of the Ho use prope rly, Mr . Sp eaker. This morni ng's example of the comm ittee is only one example and if we're going to have comm ittees of the House sitting on the Constitution, sitting on bills, does that not sugge st to the First Mi nister that an intersessional ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources on a point of order. HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, Mr. Speaker .

The Leader of the Opposition has been on his feet, he's asked I believe one ques tion, but he's been on his feet making statements and I think, Mr. Speaker, you owe it to all members of this House, particularly to the Leader of the Opposition, to indicate again to the Leader of the Opposition that this isn't the Parliament of Canada wher e the members are entitled to a 10 -minute statement, this is question period and the honourable members are entitled to ask questions.

They're entitled to intr oduce their first question by a short introductory preamable to the question, but following their fi rst qu estion the suppl ementa ry questions need no preamb le. The honourable member has been standing in his place making speeches, Mr. Speak er, and I call upon you to advise him about the Rules of this House. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I believe I've quoted this citation before. It's 359(2) which says, "The question must be brief. The

preamble need not exceed one carefu lly drawn sentence. A long

preamble on a long question takes an unfair share of time and provokes the same sort of reply. A supplementary question should need no

preamble." I hope honourable members will take those words to heart and order their actions accord ingly. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Speaker , the question to the First Minister is this, that in view of the fact that this House is going to be sitting with comm ittees of the House, Law Amend ments, on very impo rtant pie ces of legislation, some of which are penal to the people of Manitoba; in view of the fact that this government is unabl e appa rently to ha ve Min isters, qui te underst andabl y, when the y'v e go t two or th ree commi ttees sitting, have Mi nisters at proper hearings dealing with bills, and then having the same Minister dealing with the Constitutional Resolution, will he not admit the common sense of the suggestion that has been made and reiterated on this side of the House, that if he would stop being so bullhe aded and order the Constitutional Amendment Resolution to be heard intersessional ly, as he was asked at the beginning, that he would avoid some of the disruptions tha t are occurring and he would avoid, if I may say so, Sir, some of the concern that is arising among the people of Manitoba, the municipal ities of Manitoba, the cities, towns and villages, that they want to be heard on this matter in an unhur ried way?

Will he not agree that would be the best way to order the business of this province? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker , it's for that reason that, indeed, informational meetings are proceeding in 4162

Thursday, 7 July, 1983 Dauphin, in Brandon, in Thompson, in Winnipeg. There will be opportunity for municipalit ies and villages and towns and for others to make presentations to a legislat ive committee of this House dealing with this particular reso lution when it is referred to that commi ttee. So, Mr. Speak er, there is in fact more opportunity than is the case with most bills, contentious bills, that proceed through this Cham ber.

We have a very very contentious bill dealing with seat belt and restraint legislation that will be dealt with, with a committee meeting and the presentation of briefs, no informational meetings, so there is every opportunity being given to deal with the resolution by way of informational meetings by legisla tive Comm ittee, to receive briefs. HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Speak er, I should not have to remind the First Mi nister. of this or any other province, that the resolution that he has and his government have before this house, is of sublime im portance to the future of this pr ovince, namely , an amend me nt to The Constitution Act of Canada.

Will he not agree that the amendment should be treated intersessionally in an unhurried way so that the people of Manitoba will have every full opportunity to tell the Legislature what they think about that fundamentally impo rtant matter; not to have to share their time on seat belts, The Farm Land Protection Act and so on, which comm ittees I expect this government will want to run concurrently? That is not the way, Mr. Speak er, will he not agree that is not the way to run the busi ness of Manitoba? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, in fact the business, insofar as this Chamber is concerned, is being run in a way that is less hurried than in previous years . A MEMBER: Contemptible! HON. H. PAWLEY: contem ptible becaus e honou rable mem bers want to ge t away on their vacation, Mr. Speaker . We're going to take our time insofar as dealing with these imp ortant matters . HON. S. LYON: Now you're the fools. HON. H. PAWLEY: Well, I want to just put on the record, agai n, that the Leader of the Opposition is (I nterjection) HON. S. LYON: I'll put it on record any day of the week, Mr.

Sp eaker, that the First Minister is acting like a fool in the House. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker , I don't intend to repeat the statement by the Leader of the Op positi on, otherwise I would be making myself as he has described - come very close sometimes, Mr. Speaker - for being tempted to sink into the same sort of abattoirs the Leader of the Opposition does. Mr. Speaker, we're prepared to take our time. In fact, there isn't even a provision for a resolution to be referred to a legis lative commit tee.

There is no need for this resolution to be dealt with by way of a legislative comm ittee, to be dealt with by way of informational meetings. Mr. Speak er, let us be clear, this government has gone the extra step insofar as this resolution is concerned, it is taking this resolution to informational meetings throughout the Province of Manitoba; it is referring this resolution to a legislati ve committee, not •equired by the Rules of this Cham ber. Mr.

Speak er, just for the information of members across the way, it's my understanding that insofar as the other provi nces are concerned with the ir constitutional resolutions pertaining to aboriginal treaty rights, that they're not being referred in most cases to comm ittees, are being dealt with in the normal process of a resolution. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker , a further question to the First Minister who need not, out of the barrenness of his thought processes, reflect or impu te motives to this side of the House about wanting holidays.

This side of the Hous e has some understanding of the fundamental impor tance of this Constitutional Amendment which he and his incompetent government have negotiated. We, Mr. Speak er, want to make sure that the people of Manitoba have full op'.)ortunity. So lest he try to get away with that kind of impu tation. he can keep those shallow thoughts to hi mself. The question, Mr.

Speaker , is very simply this, anct I'm asking for an answer, not a weaseling around such as we've been hearing from him, will he not agree that the people of Manitoba on a fundamental issue of this impo rtance, the first constitutional amendment - and don't talk to me about the Native Rights Amendment, that is a secretarial amendment compa red to the one on bilingualism, compared to that - so, Mr. Speaker , will he not agree that it would be in the interests of the people of Manitoba, never mind his personal

schedule or that of his incomp etent backbenchers, in the interests of the people of Manitoba, once will he do something in the public interest and

schedule these meetings intersessionally so that the people of Manitoba will have a chance to be heard? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker , I've already responded to three speeches, not three questions, by the Leader of the Opposition. I don't intend to abuse the Rules of the Hous e by entering into a fourth speech in response to a speech by the Leader of the Opposition. Judge Jewers Report on Lotteries MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for La Verendrye. R. BANMAN: Mr.

Speak er, I direct my question the Mi nister in char ge of Lotteries and would ask he Minister, in light of the fact that the report dealing with Lotteries, Judge Jewers Report, which was commissioned by him over a year ago, has not yet been tabled in the Legislature, I wonder if he could inform the House as to when we can expect that report? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Health. HON. l. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, it'll probably be next week; very soon anyway. 4163

Thursday, 7 July, 1983 MR. R. BANMAN: Mr. Speaker , in light of the fact that many of the non-profit groups who have, approximately a year ago, put in applic ations for Nevada and Bingo lic ences, does the Mi nis ter antici pate tha t these particular applications will be dealt with once the Jewers Report is brought into the Legislature? In other words, what kind of time frame is he looking at for the im plementation of the report? HON. L DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker , let me hasten to make the correc tion. It's not necessa rily the im plementation of a report.

Policies will be developed and announced to the House tak ing into consideration some of the recom mendations and the Report of Judge Jewers. There could be other policy changes. I can announce to the House now that there will be some very major changes in policies, and that takes quite awhile to get ready, but we're going as fast as we can, and as soon as we can these policies will be announced to the Hous e and to the public of Manitoba. MR. R. BANMAN: A further question to the same Minister, Mr. Spea ker.

Is the Minister then saying that after the report is tabled that the freeze on the new issuance of licences for Nevadas and for Bingos, to non-profit groups, will continue till the government has decided on their new polic y direction? I'd like to ask him, if that indeed is the case, if that is how he intends to approach the situation, could he tell us rough ly, how long these groups would have to wait; in other words, till they can have a word whether or not they will be rece iving favourable consideration or otherwise? HON. l. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speake r, it wouldn't be wise for me to announce any policy change or even part of the policies at this time. I've answered the honourable member and the members of this Hous e that policies are in the process of being developed now, and will be announced very very soon. Crow Rate MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you, Mr. Sp ea ker.

I'm wondering if I could ask the Acting Minister of Highw ays and Transportation, rough ly, if he could give me an estimate as to how many people have called the government seeking information on the Crow rate issue by using the public phone numb er that was accommoda ted to them? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker , I'll take the specific question as notice, but I belie ve that it's somewhere neighbouring the 200 mark. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Speaker , I then ask a question of the First Minister.

I would ask him, because some $15 0,000 was allocated to advertising to elicit questions from Manitobans who had concerns on this, how roughly at $750 a phone call to this point in time, how that figure contradicts the statement made by the Minister of Natural Resources yesterday when he lauded his government's efforts in cost-conscious decision making. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Fir st Minis ter. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speak er, the impli cations of the Crow are certainly considerable insofar as Manitoba is concerned.

Our expenditure, in regard to Crow information, is probably modest by comparison to the expen dit ur es tha t have been encoun tered in the Province of Saskatchewan by the Saskatchewan Government. I think, by comparison, we would be quite modest insofar as our expenditure of sums of monies re the advertising issue so that, in fact, Mr. Speaker, we probably could be criticized, in comparison to the efforts of the Saskatchewan Government, to advertise a position contrary to Pepin. Mr.

Speaker , the purpose of the advertising is not just to elicit questions, but certainly is more to inform, to advise Manitobans insofar as the consequences of an imp roper decision on th e part of the Federal Government pertaining to Crow. I thought, Mr. Speaker, that we had unanimous support in this House as to the serious consequences that might occur on the part of the people of the Province of Manitoba, and farmers particularly in the Province of Manitoba, if the Pepin proposals were permitted to proceed, so I would have thought, Mr.

Speaker, if anything, that there would have been criticism for us not launching more enthusia stic advert ising along the li nes of Premier De vine's Government in Saskatchewan. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Well, Mr. Speaker, the First Minister can attempt to justify it in any way he wants but $750 per phone call is a large amount. My next question is to the Minister of Transportation, I would like to know whether the government will be making a pr esenta tion to the Federal Standing Comm ittee on Agriculture as it passes, I believe, through Winnipeg on August 4th. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Hig hways. HON. S. USKIW: Yes, Mr. Speak er, we have indicated to the Government of Canada that we intend to make a pr esenta tion on behalf of the Go vernment of Manitoba. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Speaker , I'm wondering if the Minister can indicate how the position to be put forward by the government will be determined? HON. S. USKIW: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I appreciate the fact that the Mem ber for Morris has never been in government and doesn't quite know the methodology emp loyed to put together a brief that would presume to represent the province and the government; perhaps some day he wi ll have that opportunity. But that is something for us to determine, it's not something that is debatable here. 4164

Thursday, 7 July, 1983 INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I wonder if I migh t interrupt the proce edings for a moment to direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where we have 15 students from the Frederick Willhelm School in West Germany who are the gue sts of Fort Richmond High School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Yorke. On behalf of all of the members I welcome you here this afternoon. The Honourable Mem ber for Morris. Crow Rate Cont'd MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Speake r, I have one more question in this vein.

I'm wondering if the Minister would be a little more explicit and tell the House whether, indeed, any of the report that was tabled here by our own Standing Com mittee on Agriculture will be used to formu late the gov ernment proposal, becaus e certainly it should be made well aware to all Manitobans that that standing comm ittee went around and based its questions and elicited responses on the original Pepin proposals and they have changed many times since that. HON. S. USK IW: Mr .

Sp eaker , the appropria te references will be made to that document and I believe it will be done in a way that will not offend members opposite. Bilingualism in Manitoba Cont'd MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the First Minister and ask him if he could clarify somet hing. Is the First Minister considering a free vote on the question of bil ingualism in Manitoba? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr . Sp eaker , the Ho nour able Member for Elmwood is able to vote as he sees fit. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I'm sorry I did not hear the answer.

I wonder if the First Minister could repeat it. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr . Sp eak er, cert ainly the Honourable Mem ber for Elmwood will be able to vote as he sees fit. Insofar as a free vote, that's a matter that will have to be determined in due course, I'm sure, by the caucus opposite and our own particular caucus. At this particular time, no one on cur side except for the Mem ber for Elmwood has expressed any concern about whether the vote be free or not. MR. R.

DOERN: I'd also like to ask the First Mi nister whether he could explain his comments which were made a week or two ago which appeared to be contradictor y, namely, that he was considering a free vote and that it was also a matter of confidence in the government? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I have never ruled out a free vote, but unlik e the honour able me mber's priorities, this has not been a priority of concern within our particular caucus in discussion as to whether this be a free vote or not. At some point before the vote, we'll probably discuss that.

I don't sense it to be a matter of priority on the part of this caucus. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker , I would then ask as a iast question of the First Minister, is this a matter of confidence or a question of confidence in this government? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker , it's been made very clear it's a matter of confidence. HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Speaker , in view of the fact that the First Minister, I hope, is pondering the question still of an intersessional committee taking the lead from what his colleague, the Minister of Transporation, has been doing with respect to taking phone calls on the Cr ow rate; considering that the qu est ion of th e Constitutional Amendment is much more fundamental a problem, would he consider putting in a free phoning area for the people of Manitoba to commun icate their information to this government because this government thus far ho..3 seen to forestall and to squelch and to hold down people from te'ling the government what it think s about the Constitutional Amendment?

HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker , I believe there are facilities now that provide for any citizen of the Province of Manitoba to phone in, I belie ve, on a toll-free basis if I'm not incorrect, Citizens Inquiry Service, Mr. Speak er, and also of course, to commun icate by way of letter and other means. Mr. Speak er, let me assure the Conservative members across the way that this is a government that certainly has not hesitated to invite public response.

In fact, some thr ee weeks ago we gained the pleasant experience of visiting a number of communities in ridings of honourable members across the way to discuss all current issues before the Legislature. We met in Morden, Manitoba; Notre Dame; in Vita; in St. Pierre; in Beausejour; in Whitemouth and we discussed this particular issue. Let me tell honourable members, we discussed the issues pertai ning to seat belts. Mr. Speak er, in fact, I do not recall honourable members across the way going out and meeting with community leaders during the Session as we did a few weeks ago, members on this side of the Cham ber.

HON. S. LYON: Well, Mr. Speaker, in furtherance of the question that I asked before, will the First Minister and his government gi ve serious considera tion to opening up either a special phone line or some other additional means of letting the people of Manitoba c mmunicate with their government on this issue? The :iest way is an intersessional comm ittee; will he not .�onsider the intersessional comm ittee, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLIN G: Mr. Speaker , I think it's incumbent on members of this House to try and abide by the Rules of the House.

The Leader of the Opposition has been in this House for many years and yet he consistently 4165

Thursday, 7 July, 1983 breaks the rules. He knows that it is im proper for him to consistently ask the same question, change a word here or change a word there or make a shorter speech before the question, but to repeat the same question, Mr. Speaker , surely you should advise the Honourable Leader of the Opposition that he should abide by the rules. A long time ago he used to, Mr. Speak er. I would remind you to reflect on experience in this House and tell him not to repeat his questions. French language Services - Advertising MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mem ber for Springfield. MR. A. ANSTETT: Yes, Mr.

Sp eaker, I have a question for the Honourable First Minis ter which follows upon the excellent suggestion I think that's been made by the Honourable Leader of the Opposition. The Leader of the Opposition sugge sted that the government may, on the question of the expansion of French Language Services in Manitoba, want to follow the excellent example set by the Mi nister of Transportation.

I'm wondering if the Premier would consider doing at least $1 50,000 advertising campaign and public information campaign for the people of Manitoba on this im portant issue and include in it a telephone number to which members of the publi c could respond both for, to make comments and to have the questions answered by the government. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minis ter. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, a lot of Manitobans in fact may be wishing at this particular point, with all the misi nformation that members of the Conservative opposition have been spreading about the province, that we wou ld engage in more such activity of advertising, communic ating information and other means of ensuring that honourable members in this House do not succeed in misinforming the publi c at large. Bilingualism in Manitoba - misinformation MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Leader of the Opposition. HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Speak er, would the First Mini ster care - and I'm sure he'll have to take notice of this question - would he care to identify one piece of misi nformation that has been spoken by me or by this opposition party since he introduced the Constitutional Amendment? And if not, will he withdr aw that uncalled­ for statement about misinformation? We are not the ones, Sir, who have been issuing misinformation. Let him speak to the President of the Union of Municipalities about misinf ormation, coming from him, with respect to an issue about which this First Mini ster knows very little. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: It was they, the members across the way, that said this would cost Manitobans more. 4166 It was they that said we were requiring more translation of statutes. In fact, Mr. Speak er, we are translating less statutes. Mr. Speak er, we can proceed through the Hansard, page-by-page, and we'll find many different areas of misi nformation. HON. S. LYON: Well then, Mr. Speak er, I repeat my question before. I challenge the First Mini ster to do it or to shut up. McKenzie Seeds MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the First Minister. Order-in-Council No. 700 appoints Honourable Leonard Salisbury Evans, the Mini ster of Community Services and Corrections, the Minister responsible for the administration of A.E. McKenzie Com pany, dated June 29, 1983. Could I ask the Fi rst Mini ster who ha s been responsible for McKenzie Seeds prior to that? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr .

Sp eaker , the Honourable Member for Brandon East, the Mini ster responsible for Community Services has been on a continuing basis, on de facto basis, and the Order-in-Council ensures that it is done on an appropriate basis. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker , who has had the proper and legitimate authority to exercise responsibility with respect to A.E. McKenzie Limited prior to June 29, 1983? HON. H. PAWLEY : The Mani toba Development Corporation ha s been involved.

It ha s been the responsibility of the Mini ster responsible for Economic Devel opment, as the Mini ster res ponsible for the Mani toba Devel opment Corpora tion. Ins ofar as McKenzie Seeds, Mr. Speak er, the responsibil ity is and will be the Minister responsible for Commun ity Services. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker , I have a question to the Mi nister of Economic Development then. Has the Minister of Economic Development had any dealings with McKenzie Seeds in her capacity as the Minister responsible for that corporation? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Economic Development. HON. M. SMITH: Mr.

Speak er, since last July - it was July or August when I assumed responsi bilit y for MDC and Flyer - the de facto Minister in charge of McKenzie has been the Honourable Mr. Evans, although both of us have been legally involved. I think I have had the basic respo nsibil ity, but de facto the relationship with McKenzie has been handled by my colleague. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speak er, a question to the First Minis ter. What authority did the de facto Minis ter, the Minister responsible for Community Services have to

Thursday, 7 July, 1983 ap pear before the Standing Comm itte e of the Legislature and answer questions concerning the affairs of A.E. McKenzie Limited? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, if the honourable members had concerns, I don't know why, at that particular point, they did not ask at that time because the Order-in-Council involved has been passed since that particular date. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker , the opposition, perhaps wrongly had been assuming that the First Mi nister could at least see that his Ministers were properly appointed and that their responsibilities were properly assi gned. Perhaps we will have to beg in to question each and every one of the appointments that this First Mi nister makes. My question to the First Minister, Sir, under what authority did he appear before the commi ttee to answer questions concerning A.E. McKenzie Limited? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker , in this particular case it was clearly an oversight that we noted on this side before mem bers of the opposition had noted it, that there had not been an Order-in-Council appointing the Memb er for Communi ty Services re sponsible. - (Interject ion) - I did. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister who is now no longer de facto but is responsible for A.E. McKenzie Limited. Did the Minister make any decisions with respect to A.E. McKenzie during the period of time for which he had no authority to act as the Minister responsible for that company? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Communi ty Services. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Sp eaker, as the honourable member should very well know, all major decisions involving Crown corporations ulti mately are discussed by Cabinet and are dealt with by Cabinet and I think of one primar y example, a very im portant worthwh ile example, and that is the refinancing of that comp any, some thing that was planned back in the '70s and that has finally come about. Those major decisions, of course, involved the Minister of MD C and involves, ultima tely, the Cabinet of Manitoba. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Turtle Mou ntain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, could I ask the Minis ter of Community Services if he signed an Order-in-Council concerning the refinancing of A.E. McKenzie Limited? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I believe, if my memory serves me right, that would have been signed by the Mini ster for MD C because the refinancing is done through the Manitoba Development Corporation. MR. B. RANSOM: A further question to the Mini ster responsible for A.E. McKenzie. Did the Minister sign any documents, any authorizations with respect to A.E.

McKenzie Limited during the period of time that he was, in fact, not responsible for that company? HON. L. EVANS: Well, going 6ack to the original legislation setting up A.E. McKenzie - and this goes hack to 1945 - the Minister of Finance under both administrations as a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, has had the authority under that legislation to hold the shares on behalf of the Government of Manitoba. I ther efore had one occasion to act as the shareholders for the Province of Manitoba at the annual meeting of A.E.

McKenzie early in this year and the proxy was giv en to me by the Minister of Finance which, as we are advised by Legal Counsel, is the proper way to pro ce ed. This happ ened , also, under your administration; your Minister of Finance had to do the same thing. MR. B. RANSOM: A further question to the Minister, Mr. Speak er. Did the Minister sign any order with respect to appointments to the Board of Dir ectors to A.E. McKenzie Company Limited? HON. L. EVANS: Ultima tely the appointment to the Board of Dir ectors of this Crown curpora tion is agreed to by the Cabinet of the province. MR. B.

RANSOM: Perhaps the Mini ster could be a little more specific in resp onding to the question, Mr. Speaker . Did he sign an order respect ing appointments to the Board of Dir ectors of A.E. McKenzie Company Limited? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I'll take it as notice. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for Oral Question having expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Government House Leader. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speak er, would you call the Bills in this order please: Bill No. 87, Bill No. 88, Bill No. 55, Bill No. 48, Bill No. 60, and then Bill No. 2, 3, 18, 23, 24, 47, 49, 66, 74 and 85. Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. MR. SPEAK ER: On the pr op osed motion of the Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs, Bill No. 87. (Stand). Order please, order please. The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain on a point of order. B. RANSOM: A point of order, Mr. Speak er. The nembers perhaps aren't aware that there have been meetings called by the government to deal with the Constitutional amendment that is before this House, and our critic is attending those meetings. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. On the proposed motion of the Honourable Mini ster of Northern Affairs, Bill No. 88, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for St.

Norb ert. (Stand). 4167

Thursday, 7 July, 1983 ADJOURNED DEBATES ON SECOND READING BILL 55 - THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY ACT MR. SPEAKER: On the prop osed motion of the Honourable Attorney-General, Bill No. 55, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Sp eaker , this bill which provides for additional services to Mem bers of the Legislative Assem bly we believe is an inapprop riate bill to bring forward at this time. Having said that, Mr.

Sp eaker , I will giv e an example of the various issues that are involved and the manner in which the bill has been debated and discussed by members opposite in the course of the second reading debate in this House. I believe, Mr. Speaker , that there are a number of areas of concern with regard to this bill. First ly, it's evident that the bill has been brought forward by the government in an effort to justify positions, as members of the Legislature of Manitoba, ought to become full­ time endeavours by all mem bers.

That concept has been referred to on a number of occasions in debate and discussion on the bill this Session. I believe that's a concept and an area that we ought to be concerned about, because I believe that there are a number of good and valid reasons why we shou ldn't be moving to make positions, as members of the Legislativ e Assembly of Manitoba, full-time, year-round jobs. Mr. Sp eaker, I believe that it's very imp ortant to have additional outside interests and com mi tments and involvements, other than just those which we are required as members of the Legislature to partici pate in.

I believe that it's in all of our interests to get out of this artificial environment that we have here in the Legislative Assemb ly, as Mem bers of the Legislature, and into the real world from time-to-time. It's im portant for us to keep contact with the commun ity.

I believe that contact should include perhaps some outside emplo yment and endeavours as much as possible, because I think it's im portant for us to have that diversity of views that is out there in the publi c in Manitoba; that diversity of views that we can only get from constant contact, not only contact as a member of the Legislature sitting on the end of a telephone, or resp onding to initiatives that we create by legislation here, or by bills brought forward; but rather have our work and our legislation be in response to the experiences that we have from our involvement outside of the Legislature.

I believe that this diversity of views can serve, without question, to make for better legislation.

I think that it's im portant, as I've said on a number of occasions, that this Legislature be populated by people of as broad a cross-section of representation in this community as possible; not only the geographic representation that occurs because of the way the boundar ies are drawn for the constitu encie s that members represent in this House, not only for that geographic di fference in the reg ions that are represented by the people present here in the House, but the diversity of ethnic orig in, the diversity of people of different vocational backgrounds, different interests and so on.

I think that is very important. The Member for Thompson, for instance, in di scussi ng this bill made a nu mber of different references, references to his feeling that this bill was very im portant for his ability to keep touch with his commun ity. He very proudly stated, on occasion, that he felt that he worked very hard at keeping touch with his commun ity, and this bill was going to enable him to do a better job as a member of the Legislature. I'll quote him : "No w, Mr. Speaker , as I have said, I wish members opposite would be a little more courageous in expressing the view.

I wish they would get up and say, yes, I feel the position of an ML A should be a part­ time job, that I should come here for the sitting of the Legislature then go to some other form of employment, and that's it. I do not believe that there should be constituency services; I do not believe that there should be constituency offices or any travel allowances in­ between legisla tive sessions. I wish they would have the courage to say that." Mr.

Speak er, I am saying I believe that it is im portant for us not to become ful l-time me mb ers of the Legislature where we have no other contacts, no other commitments and no other involvements out in the commun ity. I'm sayi ng that. I'm sorry that the Mem ber for Thompson isn't here to hear me say it because he's challenged us to say it, but perhap s he'll read it in Hansard. I take exception to his position in attempting to, as justification of this bill, make the position that he is currently in a full-time job. I understand why and I'll refer to that a little later, but I disagree with it. Mr.

Speaker , I think the inference that the Member for Thompson is making is that only if we are full-time members can we do an adequate job of maintaining contact and keeping in touch with our community and fully servicing it to the best possible extent. I believe there are many different ways of keeping in touch with the community and I believe, of course, that there are differences in which we have to keep in touch.

A widespread community such as the Member for Rupertsland represents is much more difficult, and he would have to be much more ima ginative and make use of much more different techniques to try and keep in touch because of the manner in which the population is spread out in his constituency than, for instance, someone such as myself or other urban members who are in daily contact with their communiti es. For us, I realize that it's a lot easier .

We can meet and have discussions with and gain feedback and advice from our constituents merely by going shopping at the gr ocery store in our area from time to ti me. - (Interject ion) The Member for Elmwood says at the beer parl or. Well, I suppose for some that's an appropriate place for an exchange of information and dialogue and I suppose that they serve tomato juice there as well, so one doesn't even need to indulge in order to sit and participate. - (Interject ion) - The Minister of Agricultur e says they serve Pepsi and the Member for Elmwood says they even serve milk from time to time.

Well, that's true, I suppose that that's the kind of thing. But I'm sayi ng that in an urban centre, one can keep in touch just by going out to his children's games at the community centres. We can partici pate when we go to a Home and School meeting; we can participate and we can keep in touch and we can get a good deal 4168

Thursday, 7 July, 1983 of feedback and information, an indication of just what's on the mind of our constituents as we stand outside at a hockey game adjacent to a hockey rink watching our childr en pla y; or gym nastics, watching them perform; at church teas; at so many of those things - so it's a lot different for us perhaps than it is for the Member for Rupertsland. But I believe that it's just a question of commitment and a question of imagination as to how you go about struc tu ring you r tim e to keep in touch with that communit y.

I don't believe the matters that are brought forward in this bill are in any way, shape or form going to ensure that any member of this House does a better job of keeping in touch. What it will do, Mr. Speak er, however, is burden the taxpayer, that beleaguered taxpayer who's already served with the weight of a record deficit, a record deficit last year that was at an all-time high of - I believe it's been established now as being around $340 mil lion - a record deficit this year that's projected at $578 million.

When 52,000 Manitobans are unemployed, searc hing desperately for jobs, we are facing them and burdening them with the extra cost of now provid ing us, as members of the Legislature, with additional services, additional benefits.

The members opposite, particularly the Member for Thompson, and I believe the Member for lnkster, or certainly the Member for Springfield in his questioning of my colleague from La Verendrye, made the inference that this was actually somehow going to be a saving to the taxpayer, because now we were replacing a $1, 500 taxable benefit that all of us are currently getting with a $2,500 potential non-taxable benefit for which receipts were required. I suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that there is absolutely no doubt that members are going to be able to justify that.

They probably are already expending that $2,500 today on travel within their constitue ncy, on information that they're sending out to their constituents on a regular basis. I don't know if members opposite do but I certainly know that our members do. In fact, one of my former colleagues in the last Session of the Legislature used to send out an enormous amount of mail daily from his office. He had a mailing list in which he kept people informed on issues and positions and just did a marvelous job.

He did that out of the existing indemnity that we received , out of the existing allowance for constituency and secretarial and research; he did that because that was his way of keeping in touch with his constituents. I don't think that this would have been any more incentive for him to do what he knew was necessary in order to do the best job possible as a member of the Legislature, and it wouldn't have changed it.

It would have just meant that he then could turn over all those receipts for postuge and stationery and printing and all of tho se things and get com pensated for it, and that's exactly what will happen. Mem bers are currently doing all of these vital things necessary to perform adequately their jobs as members of this Legislature without these provisions. I don't see the need for us to burden the taxpayer with the additional expense. I certai nly don't accept the position that's taken, I believe, falsely by members opposite by saying somehow this is going to be a saving to the taxpayer.

There is no way that this will be a saving to the taxpayer and we had better face up to that right now. The fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, we're replacing a $1 ,500 taxable benefit annually, of which I suppose many members are paying back almo st half in income taxes; so, in essence, $750 goes back into the tax rolls of the province so, in fact, it's a net benefit of about $750, we're replacing that with a $2,500 non-taxable benefit for which we have to supply receipts.

Any of ..is who have been involved in any endeavours, whether that be here as a member of the Legislature or as a member of government or a member of business where you're keeping those receipts, you're accu mulating those receipts and you know that you are expending that money and there will be no difficulty in provi ding the receipts to prove that every year you spend, indeed, even more than $2,500 on legitima te constituency expenses to do the job that you were elected to do to represent the people of your area. Mr.

Spea ker, I fail to understand how, in fact, the Member for lnkster in his references said that it was a much better system to require people to provide receipts for their legiti mate expenditures that they make. He indicated that as part of his speech, saying that it was a much better system now because we had to provide those receipts for the expenditure.

At the same time, tlc!s bill takes away a situation that currently exists on behalf of the Speaker's office, in which the Speaker is entitled to a $50 per diem for coming into his office and presumably for carrying out the business of the Speaker's office while we are not in Session; so they are now taking that provision away from here, a provision which I presume is an accountable provision - the Speaker doesn't get it automatically - he gets it only for having demonstrated that he has spent time in his office carryi ng out the duties of the office of Speaker during the course of the intersession, the time between sessions.

That, for instance, last year amounted to $7,050 and that's now being replaced with an additional indemnity of $3,500. So the reverse principle is being held out by this government, sayi ng that instead of having an acco untable amount in there, we're now going to cut it back to a non-accountable $3,500 increase in indemnity. The government is confused in its principl es and its logic here as it is, obviou sly, in so many of the things that it does.

As my colleague from Virden says, you can't have it both ways, but this government always seems to choose to try and have it both ways by justifyi ng, on the one hand a situation, and on the other hand, an op posite situation, jus t reversi ng their arguments for the two; and that of course I suppose is part of what happens with the arguments that the Mem ber for lnkster puts forward continually. Mr. Speak er, in referring to this item, of course, the Member for Thompson as well made comment on that matter. I'll just refer to the notes here.

The Member lnkster says that he referred to it; well perhaps I've got it in the notes of Hansard, of his speech; but in any case, they choose their arguments, depending on the position that they want in the bill, and as I say, they just reverse the arguments when they're taking the opposite position. In any case, Mr. Speaker, there are a number of things about this bill that I think ought to be open to question, that the public ought to be concerned about. The former Member for lnkster - and we have said before that the current member has large shoes to fill 4169

Thursday, 7 July, 1983 - but the former Member for lnkster, when faced with this kind of proposal in the past, that is the proposal to increase benefits and/or indemnities to mem bers, suggested that any new benefits, any increase in indemnities, any new services or cost to the taxpayer on behalf of members of the Legislature, shoul d not come into effect until after the next election, so that we are not voting on a basis of greed or on a basis of increasing our own incomes and proving our own financial situations, but we should put forward the proposal and then let the taxpayer voter, next time around, decide whether or not we have been fair, honest and straig htforward in putting forth this kind of suggestion of a change in compensation to members - (I nterjection) - I have no problems with that whatsoe ver, in response to the Minister of Health. - (I nterjection) - I'll get to that in a moment, Mr.

Speaker . I say that's a valid proposal because I'll give you an instance of that. The members who are sitting in the government benches today did not campaign on the basis that, if elected to office, they would immedia tely endeavour to increase the benefits paid to or on behalf of mem bers of the Legislature.

I certainly didn't hear it; it certainly wasn't in that manifesto that was put forward, "A Clear Choice to All Manitobans," that was put forward by Howard Pawley on behalf of the ND Party during the campaign of '81; I did not hear the Member for lnkster, I did not hear the Member for River East, I did not hear the Member for Thompson, I have never seen anywhere, in any of their literature or campaign speeches, that any of them advocated that they were going to be elected to government to increase their benefits and compensation as members of this Legislature.

From Day One, they'r e going into the public trough to incr ease the cost to taxpayers, to keep members of the Legislature here. Mr. Sp eaker , this bill provides greater compensation and benefits to members; there's no question about it. It provides it in a different form, but I've illustrated just how it ends up in more dollars out of the taxpayer's pocket and more dollars into the pocket of members of the Legislature. The members opposite, the government, are taking great pains to justify it. In fact, the Member for lnkster has obviously done a gr eat deal of research on this.

If you take a look at his speech, he has researched this matter and he has referred to the compensation and benefits in virtually every province in this country. He's able to quote what are the benefits and what are the compensations paid to members of Legislatur es in virtually every province in this country. This is the Member for lnkster. He refers here to Newfoundland, Prince Edward Island, New Brunswick; he refers to Saskatchewan, Ontario, Alberta, British Colum bia, Quebec and he refers to all of them, indicating that they all provide so much greater compensation and benefits to their mem bers.

I'll tell you this, he's also honest, in that he says, and I quote, "The amount that is being proposed," that is the increase to $2,500 in allowance and expenses for constituency work, offices, whatever, he says, "The amount that is being proposed is, I think, very mis erly. I will freely admit that I argued for quite a substantial amount of funds above that in the development of this legislation, for I do not feel that $2,500, when you compare it to other jurisdictions, is that adequate a sum of money to be able to provide for good constituency liaison." That's the Member for lnkster.

I want to know if he said that before he was elected, Mr. Speaker . That's what I want to know. I want to see it on the reco rd, Mr. Speaker, because I'll tell you, this is going to form a part of the record that we are going to send out to his constituents in the next election and to the constituents of the Member for Springfield, the Member for Thompson, the Member for River East and all of those members opposite, all of those members opposite.

He goes off on a tangent, sayi ng things such as, and I quote from the Member tor lnkster, "Quebec even allows up to two constituency offices, up to $46,000 a year for servicing their constituents and so on and so forth." Well I want to tell you a little bit about Quebec, Mr. Speak er, because when I was in Cabinet I had a number of occasions at Federal-Provincial Mi nisterial Conferences to meet with members of the Legislature in Quebec and Cabinet Mi nisters in Quebec and I was frankly appalled. Frank ly, I was appalled at the circums tances that they have there.

Cabinet Mi nisters are paid $95,000, or somewhere in that range, per year; ordinary members of the Legislature are paid in excess of $5(),000 in Quebec. While the average Quebecer lives below the poverty line, they pay thems elves salaries that are absolutely incredible.

The Ministers used to travel around when we went to federal-provincial meetings and we might take two or three advisors with us - they would have 10 or 12 - they would travel with an entourage and they would spend lavish amounts of money at these conferences on lunches and dinners while their rural popu lace suffered, starved below the poverty line. He refers as we ll, of course, to the fact that Saskatchewan pays greater indemnities and benefits.

Of course, here we're dealing with socialist governments that have set the standard both in Quebec and in Saskatchewan that set the standard for this kind of compensation. That's what he uses to justify their endeavour to incr ease the exp endit ures and the compensation to members of the Legislature. Shameful, Mr. Speak er, I don't understand it. Mr.

Speak er, I referred, of course, to the economic circums tances in which we find ourselves because I think that has to be the backdrop against which you evaluate this as a priority measure, as a priority piece of legislation of this government, because it's this government's priorities and decisions that have resulted in the record deficits that we're currently undergoing. The fact that in their very first year of office their deficit was greater than the cumula tive deficits of four years of our government but they exceeded that in one year of government.

So we're on a wild spending spree and it's burdening the taxpayer and at the same time we're asking the taxpayer to pay. We've raised their taxes, the payroll tax, the sales tax has gone up, property taxes have gone up three times in the fir st two years - three times what they went up in all four years of our government, cumula tive. Park fees and licence fees, Crown land lease fees, everything is going up to pay for the excessive spending of this government and we pile on top of that this bill which we have labeled, members on this side have labeled, a greed bill and that's what it is. 4170

Thursday, 7 July, 1983 How can they, against the backdrop of that kind of spending, face the taxpayer with additional costs and we haven't even talked about the fact, and I'll have an opportunity to speak more on The Election Finances Act but it's in the same vei n, the fact that this government cares nothing for the taxpayer. Surely the government has a respo nsibi lity to lead by example from tim e-to-time but in this case it's not "Do as I do" but it's "Don't do as I do, but do as I say". It's that kind of approach to things.

Is it any wonder that under this government we've reversed a trend that prevailed for four or five years in which Manitoba's and Winnipeg's rate of inflation was much lower than in the rest of the country? Now, since early this year our rate of increase in the cost of living has been leading the rest of the country. Why? This go vernment ha s to take a lair sha re of the responsibil ity, they're the ones who have added to the cost of government massiv ely. I think it's right now, through this kind of bill, the government is demonstrating beyond question it's insensitivity to the real needs of Man itobans.

Their real goals and ambitions to live as comfortable a life as they can within the bounds of their economic means. That's what most Manitobans, I believe, want. What this government faces them with, after me you come first, that's their attitude. It's evident in all of the legislation that they put forward. I'm first and after I've had my fill, well, if there's some left over, that's up for you. You're next but, of course, we want you to pay for it; that's the point, after we have our share, we want you to pay for it. Mr. Speaker, I don't believe that these members opposite were elected for that purpose.

I believe that they were given the responsibility to look after the interests of the taxpayer not to say, do as I say but not as I do as they are in this kind of bill. Mr. Speaker, I already referred to the fact that they didn't campaign on this but it's one of their priorit y pieces of legislation and I will, the Minister of Health says that they campaigned on this. Nonsense. After this kind of bill how hollow is that move that the Minister of Finance made which said that he's going to freeze MLA's inc reases to 6 percent this year.

Well, that's very big of him after he gives everybody els e additional income thr ough other pu rpo ses, additional sources of benefits as members of the Legislature. That's very big of him. - (I nterjection) - Mr. Speaker, the Member for Springfield comes here to interrupt me because he wasn't here when I laid that out earlier how the fact that the $1,5 00 of taxable income that is being replaced with $2,500 of non-taxable income is in effect a net $750 after tax being replaced with $2,500, that's exactly what it is for every member of this Legislature. That's where the additional expenses are.

Of course, the member doesn't understand that because I assume he hasn't paid taxes very often. Mr. Speaker , all of the rhetoric, all of the flim flam that has been put forward on this bill by members opposite has been to cover up what is actually being done and to justify their existence here as full-time members and it's obvious from the way they choose to run the affairs of the House that they want to stay here longer and longer throughout the year, that they want to do everything possible to justify being full-time members of this House, and we can understand why.

They're afraid to go out and meet the people in their constituencies, they have nothing to go to out there, they have no responsibiliti es outside this House, there's no one depending on them or looking for them to make a contribution to any other kind of endeavour. All we have opposite arguing on behalf of this bill is the unemployed and unemployables before the last election who are now here and trying to justify their continued existence here, that's what we have.

The Member for Springfield, the Member for Thompson, the Member for lnkster, it's no wonder that they don't want an occupation listed on the ballot in The Elections Act because either they're a full-time politician or else they don't have a job, so it's one or the other, it's either unemployed or full-time politician, that's all that would appear on the ballot in a number of instances. Mr. Speaker , members opposite will say that I voted for an increase in the ML A's indemnity in 1980 . A MEMBER: Who said that? Nobody said that. MR. G.

FllMON: They will say that after I've sat down, I'm sure, so I'm going to beat them to it and I'm going to say it, that I did vote for an increase that's true but I want to tell you economic circu mstances were different in those days. We did not have the n.assive deficit; we were not increasing taxes, in fact, we had decreased taxes; we had frozen the hydro rates, we've done all those things. We were looking after the taxpayers' dollars. A MEMBER: But you turned the corner. MR. G. FllMON: Mr. Speaker , what happened was we followed Judge Hall's recom mendations, and we did put through.

The members opposite are saying yeah, yeah. I can remember all of their crocodile tears about that when we brought in that bill. I can remember how they wrung their hands and said how insensitive we were, and how inconsiderate we were, and they all took it. Mr. Speaker, I said at the time that I didn't feel, personally, that I had a need for that increase.

I recog nized, however, that there were others who were not as fortunate, perhaps, as I as having another outside job, or having another outside busi ness endeavour and source of income that I could productively put my time to during the time when we weren't in Session; and so consequently I said, okay, if members in general feel that it's a good thing, if the judge has recommended it, oka y, I'll go along with it. I'll tell you, I would not have taken the position that members opposite did in speaking against it, and crying croc odile tears about it, and then later on taking it. Okay, let me tell you, Mr.

Speaker, what happened. an I was on city council in 19 76, they brought thr ugh a resolution to increase the indemnities paid to dty councillors. They brought that through in 1976 at that time I spoke agai nst it, argued against it, and said that we had not campaigned for office on increa sing the income s of city councillors. As a consequence, they had a mechanism at City Hall whereby you didn't have to take the increase, and I did not take the increase for three years. The remaining thr ee years that I was at city council I did not take it. I did not take it because I said at that time that I would 4171

Thursday, 7 July, 1983 not only take the position but I would put myself on the record. Mem bers opposite, of course, did not take that position and now the y' re bringing in thi s kind of legislation and they're not leaving a choice to the taxpayer. I say this is not good legislation, it's not warranted now; the taxpayer didn't ask you to do it; and you didn't tell the taxpayer that you would do it when you ran for office. So withdraw the bill; don't go forward with it; it's not necessary; it's not needed; or make it take effect after the next election.

If you have the courage of your convictions leave it as a legacy to the next members of the Legislature, but don't fill your pockets today and don't compens ate yourselves today. Thank you, Mr. Speak er. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Springfield. MR. A. AN STETT: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Member tor Tuxedo.

In view of his comments about those who were disputing the bill in 1980 ended up taking the benefits that accrued to members as a result of the salary changes at that time; is the member telling us that he, for one, or he and his colleagues will refuse to accept the service benefits which accrue because of a bill since they are opposed to it, since he suggested it might be somewhat hypocritical to do otherwise, since that's what the NOP did in 1980? MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker , I did not say that it would be hypocritical in this instance.

I said it was hypocritical for the NOP to argue against a salary increase for ML As and then take it. In this case, this is compensation for things that we are already doing out of our own pock ets. I am putting in th ese expenditures; I'm putting in this travel; I am putting out the mailing pieces, and I'm putting out these mailing pieces to my constituents and I will continue to do so; and because members opposite are going to use that for political gains I'm going to make sure that I take every advantage to defeat that government next time around. That's why I will use it, because I'm already doing it.

SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER : Order please. Order please. Order please. The Honourable Mem ber for Fort Garr y. MR. L. SHERM AN: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member tor Sturgeon Creek that debate be adjourned. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBE RS: Oh, oh! MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER : Order please, order please. MOTION presented and carried. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Bill No. 48, on the proposed motion of the Honourable Attorney-General standing in the name of the Mem ber for Minnedosa. (Stand) Bill 60 - THE HIGHWA Y TRAFFIC ACT MR.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: Bill No. 60, on the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Transportation standing in the name of the Member for lnkster. MR. D. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Speak er, I'm busily and hastily making notes here. I hope I've got sufficient to be able to start with my few notes I have on the table here. Mr. Speak er, Bill No. 60, our safety package, is an incredibly im portant bill.

It's a bill I personally take very seriously; it is a bill which I believe personifies our interests in the human condition, and our interest in trying to get people to lessen injuries and lessen the deaths on our hig hways. It has been often said that high way deaths and high way injuri es, or our hig hways, in general, are in many ways like a disease. As a matter of fact, the World Health Organization has said, "Road acci dents, in compa rison with dis eases, have an etiologic his tory.

They affect various age gr oup s differently; they occur in well-defined situations with more or less foreseea ble frequency; they are not simply unpredictable pieces of bad luck. When you look at the accident statistics of who are injured in age groups, in motor-related accidents, in rates per 100,000, you see small childr en - they would include pedestrian accidents as well - of 10 per 100,000 in the age group of 1-4; age groups of 5-14, the statistics - these are based on statistics from the American Academy of Pediatrics in 1980, I might add - just slightly lower , 8.6.

Some of th at shows the additi onal survivability in an accident of a larger child, rather than a small child I would imagine.

But when you move into the category when young people are getting their licences, when they're starting to drive, learning to drive and using the high ways as routes to learn on, in many instances, and also under peer pressure, but the basic tenet is that they are now driving the vehicles and the accident rate jumps up almost six times, to 44. 1 deaths per 100,000 live births; so you can see in this short, graphic explanation of the linkage between deaths and age, between hig hway deaths and propensity of a person to be on the high way, particularly to be driving.

When you look at motor vehicle age specific fatalities, in 1975 and 19 78, in Illi nois, the passenger to non­ passenger ratio of accidents - in other words, this excludes pedestrians - on hig hway accidents, in your different age groups, jumps once again dramatical ly. It goes, in the age group of 10-14, from 1. 43 to 1 ratio, it jumps in 15 -19, when the kinds are getting their licences, up to almost 10 -1; 20-24, 11. 5 to 1 and then it starts dropping slowly and it doesn't get down below 3 to 1 until the persons are over the age of 65.

So there you can see it's like a curve, starting low on one end, reaching a peak in the early years of the 20s, a very dramatic rise actual ly, from the years from 10 -14, a very dramatic rise once they get their licences at 15 , a higher rise again in the early 20s and then slowly, I mean slowly dropping off. It starts off 25-35 at almost 8 to 1; 35-45 is 6.5 to 1; 45-54, 4.28 to 1 and 55-65 of 3.35 to 1, so the ratios drop very very slowly. That shows you how like a disease it is age related. In doing some research for this - and I was glad that the former speaker gave me credit for trying to do 4172

Thursday, 7 July, 1983 some research and I do. I spend hours of research before I get up to speak in the House, contrary, I think, to a lot of members opposite whose speeches show a distinct lack of research. I contacted a chap who's doing a study in Winnipeg under Dr. Mulligan. The chap's name is Peter Moll and they are doing a survey of accidents in Manitoba, basical ly, primarily from Portage la Prairie east of the Ontario border and up north of Gimli, a bit north of Gimli. They found, I believe it was last year, only two people died wearing seat belts.

One of them was a 77 year old man who died of a heart attack some 10 days later, so being a younger person, there's no question that elderly gentleman would have sur vived had he been 20-30 years younger. The high im pact rates usually are at intersections and they're rarely exceeding the speed of 40-45 miles per hour. As a matter of fact, most of the accidents that take place - they use a figur e of 2 percent of the accidents that happen - have a change in velocity greater than 30 miles per hour.

It's a change in velocity; that means vehicles hitting another object, maybe another vehicle and not stopping instantly, but slowing the speed so that once they hit their brakes, usually the collision is after hitting the brakes for 20 or 30 feet they have usually reduced their speed to somewhere in the vicinity of 30 miles per hour by the time the im pact takes place. That shows you that the accidents the mselves, most of them are relatively low speed at the point of impact, with the change of velocity, that im portant instant, that important micro-second that the accident takes place.

Seat belts have certainly proven to be very very essential in survivability in accidents of, say, under 45 miles an hour. When you're getting up into the 70-80 which is far beyond the speed limit, even seat belts, in most instances, are not going to help unless of course the car takes a fairly long distance to actually come to a stop and is bouncing along the ditch or some such thing, the seat b.elt holding the person in, the survivability can be remarkable.

I've seen accidents, in my earlier days, when I attended an awful lot of motor races and Formula One and Cam-Am racing, saw some accidents taking place well in excess of 120 and 140 miles an hour even, and the surviv ability of drivers there, one has a hard idea to be able to figure out how they can or a hard - not a hard idea, but it's almost unbelievable that they can survive at some of these high speed crashes; and they usual ly, in far more cases than not, do survive, in many cases without very serious damages to the individual.

The reason is because partial ly, the construction, although needless to say are very flims y compared to our motor vehicles we drive on the road, but it's the way the driver is buckled in, of shoulder harnesses as well as harness through the crotch and across the waist and keeping the driver low and with the roll bar on the vehicle; but there. the key is keeping the driver in the vehicle.

In looking at some statistics, and these are analyses, they're not statistics - excuse me - analyses of accidents that have happened in Winnipeg just this year, one sees of four or five truck accidents, accidents involving trucks. four of the five were survivable, where there are fatalities. Pick-up trucks and vans, in particul ar, have the hig hest accident rate and the hi ghest death rate of any vehicles on our highw ays and I daresay that they're probably the vehicles which have the lowest rate of people using seat belts.

For some reason, people think they're safer in a pick-up or safer in a van than they are in a car when actually exactly opposite is true. In one instance, the passenger was killed, ejected out of the window, four quarter roll, head In that one there was an actual indent into the of the .;ehicle where the car rolled over that person, fully survivable accident had the person been wearing seat belt. Another , a head-on collision with a station wagon, between a pick-up. The truck here collapsed; the structural making of the truck just - the person didn't have a chance, be he buckled up or not buckled up.

In a van - and this just happened a couple ol weekends ago or last week, believe - a woman was ejected out of a side window of the van and the van rolled over her, kil led; fully survivable had she been wearing a seat belt. Another truck-car collision, this time at Fort Alex.

The truck driv er again was ejected and the vehicle rolled over him; another example of a fully survivable accident And the last example of the truck accidents so far in our province was where a person was partially ejected, just their head and torso out the window, the truck rolled over them and then they got tossed back in as the vehicle continued to roll. Once again, killed - no reason; a fully survivable accident, no reason for that accident at all - or that death, I should say - had they been buckled up. Four out of five were survivable, Mr. Speaker.

Looking at car statistics, five of the six fatalities were survivable and one person left a quadriplegic would not have had that injury had they been buckled in. There's only one car accident so far that has been involved - it's a collision, a broadside between a Thunderbird and a Honda with, I bel ieve, the Thunderbird coming through an intersection hitting the Honda and I believe the passenger was killed and the driver survived. The passenger served as an air bag for th at passeng er. It's ques tio nable whether the passenger would have survived anyway, given the damage to the vehicle.

So I'm not going to include that one becaus e the surviv ability would be very questionable; I'll take that as a non-survivable accident. In Gimli, a station wagon rolled over; a man was ejec ted, rolled upon by his car; his wif e left a quadriplegic; both totally survivable, a total waste of life on the man's part; a woman committed to a wheelchair or a bed for the rest of her life and leaving two childr en beh ind. Another one, a small Toyota hit a truck and this, again, was non-survivable; not too much cha nce with a tr uck hitting a smaller car broadside.

Broadside accidents, I might add, are the ones most likely where there is going to be non­ survivability in the accident. 1, Stonewall, another four-quarter roll. I believe it v,ds the woman who was ejected; she was killed; the :ar rolled over again out through the side window; passenger survived. Both of them should have survived. Had they been buckled up both of them would have survived. In Meadows, just last week, a car rolled; person was ejected; the woman was killed again a survivable accident.

An Ontario couple coming into the province - I don't know where the accident happened exactly but they were a couple from Ontario - who should have been wearing belts; were not wearing belts; 4173

Thursday, 7 July, 1983 the driver was ejected and kill ed from a rollover. He was not actually rolled over by his vehicle, he was thrown such a distance, the vehicle did not roll him over but he was kill ed just from the im pact of the ground - again, survivable. So we have - just let me recount here - I have two non-survivable accidents out of six accidents with deaths. Six deaths, two of them survivable and in addition to that one of the accident victims is left a quadriplegic for life.

Looking at motorcycles, five accidents so far; one with a serious injury still in hospital - at this moment there've been more than five accidents - it's five accidents that dealt with fatalities and near fatalities. Two of them were non-survivable, at least felt they were non-survivable. In one, apparently the biker was travelling along about 45 when a car pulled out in front; basically non-survivable and that unfortuntely happens far too often. Car drivers just not paying enough attention to the motorcyclist.

On Bishop Grandin Boulevard, a person fell off his bike; went down with his bike; just suffered glancing blows but it was enough to kill him. Had he had a helmet on - and this is what a vast majority of accidents dealing with helme ts and motorcyclists, you don't get very many brick-wall accidents or collisions straight into a car. An awful lot of them are hitting gr avel going down. When that happens, the likelihood of a full collision of the head instead of a glancing blow is very very low. Most of the accidents are glancing blows; that is where a helmet protects.

No one tries to make the idea or give the im pression that a helmet protects on a head-on collision. Nothing can protect in a head­ on collision. In Polo Park, a chap was, as the police statement I believe showed, was indulging in erratic driving and I don't know if he was pulling wheelies or whatnot, but he was a very low-speed accident; the person was killed. Had he had his helmet on, fully survivable accident; probably would not even have been hospitalized. On Archibald Road just this past weekend, a young chap lost control of his bike; went down; the bike was not injured but he was killed. He hit a wall.

With a helmet, the possi bility that he would have survived was no doubt hig her, because he died of a head injury but other injuries on the body may well have contributed to his death as well. Again on Bishop Grandin Boulevard, a passenger, this time a female passenger, is still in the hospital with serious head injuri es, no other broken bones, I believe. With a helmet on, she would not have had those head injur ies. So there we have five accidents so far. One person is still in serious condition in the hospital with a head injury and two other people who have died.

Three out of the five accidents were fully survivable. So no one is going to make the argument that helmets prevent an accident or that seat belts prevent an accident, although this can be - towards the seat belts in particular to keep a person in front of the controls of the vehicle so that once the - if he's not thrown oui of his seat and the vehicle is still moving, he has some chance of regaining control of the vehicle. On the other circum stances in the hel mets, they certainly do not cause accidents but they do help reduce injur ies once an accident has already taken place. Mr.

Speaker, there are some things that I would like to see in the bill that are not already in the bill and whether we are able to deal with them when it comes to report stage I'm not sure, it's hopeful that they will. Something that is not in the bill that ABATE asked for, and I listened very seriousiy when ABATE came in to make their presentations to us, because they were serious and well-meant presentations that they - and they were in twice to our caucus and I listened to them when they came outside the building as well. One of the thin gs th ey were ask ing for is eye protect ion.

They're sayi ng if you're going to legislate some thing, it makes good sense to legisla te eye protection because eye protection, there is a prevention of accidents. For people get bugs in the eye, for people getting dust or one thing or another in your eye when you're driving.

And in most helmets if they have a visor on the helmet then naturally you don't need any additional protection but with an open-faced helmet I would suggest that eye protection be included which would include sunglasses, regular glasses or goggles whatever is the driver's preference as long as there as some form of protection to the eye of the driver.

Another thing that has been used very success fully in other countries, particularly in Europe it's standard procedure, I believe it is in New Zealand and Australia as well and several States are bringing it in - I've seen some of the work from the Illinois law which they have a riders' cycle safety training act - part of their acts requir e that beginners be restricted to motorcycles of a certain size.

Right now I can go out with very limit ed driving experience on a bike or with none at all even in some cases, can go out and buy myself a 12 00-cc Ha rle y or 11 00-cc Yamaha, bi kes tha t ha ve ju st incredible power, with speed ratios that no vehicle, on acceleration ratios and power-to-weight ratios that no vehicle manufactured for the streets, in cars at least, can compare with, basically even racing car speeds and yet they are allowed to go on to the hig hway with these machines that are so quick and as much as I like the fast acceleration and the joy the speed gives me, I think that an awful lot of people are way over their heads, beyond their capacity, in the types of bikes that they are buying.

So I would sug gest that it would be wise to look at restrictions. I would suggest that there must be a difference if you're going to do it on displacement between a two cycle and a four cycle bike, because a two cycle has that much more horsepower per cc. This is the design of the engines themselves. I'd sugge st that if we looked at people, for the first two, or even thr ee years preferably, be restricted to a bike of 350 cc, or less, if it's a four-cycle bike; then 200 cc, and less, if it's a two-cycle bike.

This would, I think, give people a light er bike to start off with, a bike of much more manageable proportions, a bike that's power is much more manageable by the driver, so that slight misjudgments of both the accelerat ion of the bike, and also of the weight of the bike in tight circums tances, that the persons become more proficient riders before they move onto the bigger machines. That, again, has been proposed to us by ABATE, and I fully accept their recommendation.

Another thing that they have proposed which I would ta ck up completely is the idea of having cycle rider safety programs like they do in Illinois, where anybody trying out !or a licence for the first time has to take a cycle rider safety training program. What these training 4174

Thursday, 7 July, 1983 programs have proven in other areas is basically given a greater degree of famili arity with the bike by the driver; a familiarity with its mechanical workings; a familiarity with the power and the circums tances that one can get into. How to drop the bike, for instance, at lower speeds or even at higher speeds, and ride the bike down. What to expect in various circums tances, so that the people, if the bike hits some sort of a bump and goes into the air, that they don't panic instantly, because they've already been through a circums tance like that in a trained format previou sly.

Just better handling of the bike, a better adjustment in making the bike more part of the rider, because really a bike and a rider are an integral part. They move as one and the rider must have the necessary balance and the feel of the bike to be able to put it through its paces and, at the same time, maintain control. So, Mr.

Speaker, with those few words I would like to finish my presentation here today with a plea, basical ly, in many ways for people not just to look and try to make an issue which I really do not think is that viable an issue of so-called rights that people have to not buckle up, or to not wear a helmet. It's a social responsibility and we all have responsibili ties to our fellow citizens and to ourselves.

I would hope that the opposition turns ar ound su bstan tiall y on this, recog nizing that this is, contrary to what the Memb er for Pembina said, there is an awful lot of simi larities between this and life jackets in boats. I know I've been stopped several times in my canoe by security people and police people telling me to put on my life jacket. It can't just be done through education. We've heard several people call for more education programs. Well, the boating safety is a prime example.

Ever since I've been a small child, the Red Cross, in particu lar, and Transport Canada has been on extensive water safety programs, and yet you still see people regularly going out in their boats without the benefit of a life jacket. You even see people, once in awhile, going out water­ skiing and things like that where a person can get knocked out without life jackets. Education itself is not going to be a sufficient vehicle to get more people to buckle up and to wear their safety harnesses, and for motorcyclists to wear their helmets. So, Mr.

Speaker , with those words, I would wish that the members opposite, with the general public, the feeling that I get from my own constituents is - I've had almost as many people calling in favour of it as I have speaking against the legislation. It certai nly isn't a one-way street of people spea king against the legislation at all. There's an awful lot of people that feel it is emi nently sensible when you look at other jurisdictions that have it as well, and they see the results of the legislation, the number of lives that it can save.

We see, from the slats. that I've given you today, or just the figur es that I've given of the accidents so far today, that we have had 11 people who are dead but, had they been wearing their safety belts, they would still be survivors, 11 wasted lives, Mr.

Speaker; two other people with serious inj uries, one person a quadraplegic, one person with yet to be determined whether they're going to be able to recover from very serious head injuries in a motorcycle accident; two more people with lives dramatically affected by accidents, not because the acc ident happened so much as because they did not take the necessary or reasonable precautions. Mr.

Speaker, let us try and reduce this slaughter that happens on our hig hways, and let us look and when we see fig ures that only a couple of people in the past year or so have died wearing seat belts, and you look back to the total number of accidents that we've had, and total loss of lives in '82 of 132 fatal accidents in Manitoba. So far this year, up until the end of May this year, we alr eady had 32 fatal vic tim s in 30 fatal accidents.

Let's try and reduce our fatalities; let's try and value the human life for it really is and, in that value for human life, requir e people to bring on and to wear the seat belts, and the helmets. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Member for Springfield. MR. A. ANST ETT: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Riel that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. MR.

SPEAKER: On the pr opo sed motion of the Honourable Mini ster of Agriculture, Bill No. 3, and the pro posed amendment th ereto by the Ho nourable Member for Kirkfield Park. (Stand) On the proposed motion of the Honourable Attorney­ General, Bill No. 18, standing in the name of the the Honourable Member for Emerson. (Stand) MR. B. RANSOM: I believe that the Acting Government House Leader had given Bill No. 2 as the sixth bill that he wished called, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Acting Government House Leader. HON. A. MACKLING: The next one was Bill No. 23. MR.

SPEAKER: On the propo sed motion of the Honourable Attorney-General, Bill No. 23. (Stand) On the proposed motion of the Honourable Attorney­ General, Bill No. 24, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Emerson. (Stand) BILL 47 - THE MUNICIP AL COUNCIL CONFLICT OF INTEREST ACT MR. SPEAKER: On the pr opo sed motion of the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs, Bill No. 47. The Honourable Member for Burrows has 35 mi nutes remai ning. MR. C. SANTOS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As I was trying to reply to the Member for La Verendrye, one of the points that he raised is that it will discou rage high quality people who have the skills and who have some little enterprise from accepting positions as mayor or aldermen or members of the municipal council, and that it will inhi bit them under the proposed legislation in acting in dual capacity. Therefore, he sug gested that such a listing of assets, if it ever should be made, should be kept by the Clerk of the Municipal Council and 4175

Thursday, 7 July, 1983 shelved in a secret place and should not be made available to the pu blic. If this is the case, Mr. Speaker, then it will defeat the very rationale of this legislation, which is the disclosure of assets. It will, in fact, promote secrecy in the possession of such assets, but we know that secrecy in any field of human activity is perhaps the root cause of excesses and abuses and corruption.

Secrecy in government had magnified the power of the bureaucratic segment of the government, because if information is marked "confidential and secret ," only those in positions of appointed public authority have access to such information. We know for a fact that information gives knowledge and knowledge gives power. Therefore, only those who have access to secret information will be able to exercise power, and since they are not exposed at all to public scruti ny, as I have indicated, it will promote and breed excesses in the exercise of power as well as promote corruption.

It is the openness in our system of government that induces honesty among public officials, whether elected or appointed. It is honesty that leads to the credibi lity of people who occupy positions of pu blic trust. It is credibitili ty which is the source of strength of our demo cratic and parli amentary institutions. So the sugges tion, instead of promoting the strength of our government and our parlia mentary institutions, would in fact, be subverting the strength of our public and parl iamentary institutions on account of the secrecy that will breed dishonesty and corruption.

If this will discourage people from their busi ness venture, it will mean then that these people will suffer some personal busi ness loss, in the sense that they are inhi bited from enga ging in their own pr ivate commercial enterprise. Mr.

Speaker, if I were in the shoes of some of these people who presumably are motivated by a desire to serve the public interests, I would greatly prefer loss which may vex me for awhile, instead of the dishonest gain that I may be motivated to pursue on account of dealing with myself in two capacities, one in the capacity of a businessman, another in the capacity of a publi c decision-ma ker. Because in such a conflict of interest, it may forever lead me to the unending remorse as a public official.

I would rather dwell in the light of truth about my assets and my possess ions so that the publi c may know and judge that I am doing what I'm sup posed to do to serve them in the publi c interest. As publi c servants, ther efore, let us carry the torch of openness that promotes truth and honesty, and like a blazing torch of truth, the more you shake the torch, the more the light of truth becomes brighter that will serve to enlight en us in our path to true public service. Thank you, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker , I move, seconded by the Mem ber for La Verendrye, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER : On the pr opo sed motion of the Honourable Attor ney-Gen eral , Bill No. 49, the Honourable Mem ber for St. Norbert. (Stand) On the proposed motion of the Honourable Attorney­ General, Bill No. 66, the Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: I adjourned that matter for the Attorney-General who intends to close debate there, Mr. Speaker, so I'd like it to stand. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? HON. A. MACKLING: No, stand. MR.

SPEAKER: On the pr opo sed motion of the Honourable Attorney-General, Bill No. 74, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for St. Norbert. (Stand) On the proposed motion of the Honourable Mini ster of Hi ghways, Bill No. 85, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Niakwa. (Stand) Could the Honourable Acting Government House Leader indicate the next item of busi ness? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, the next one was Bill No. 92, Mr. Sp eaker. MR.

SPEAKER: On the pro posed motion of the Honourable Mini ster of Cultur al Affairs, Bill No. 92, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Fort Gar ry. (Stand) The Honourable Mini ster of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: I think, Mr. Speaker, we can deal with the two that are at the report stage. They are Bills No. 44 and No. 45. I will ask that my staff bring the amendments. Notice has been given to the Honourable Memb er for Turtle Mountain and others in their caucus and I think we could proceed with those in just a moment.

I will ask that my file be sent in and I think we can deal with those matters. Mr. Speaker , I believe I will have my material very shortly in respect to Bills No. 44 arid No. 45, but perhaps we can call the third reading on Bill No. 12, The Water Rights Act. THIRD READING - GOVERNMENT BILLS Bill 12 - THE WATER RIGHTS .ACT HON. A. MACKLING presented Bill No. 12, The Water Rights Act, for third reading. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. HON. A. MA CKUNG: Mr.

Speaker, I think honourable mem bers that attended in Law Amendments Commi ttee will recall a number of amendments that were made in Law Amendments Comm ittee, I think, made some sig nificant impr ovement in the wording of various sections of the legislation. l,s it often happens, when Legislative Counsel are preparing statutes, there is some later reconsideration of some of the words, the verbiage that is used. Some minor technical im provements were made and I think 4176

Thursday, 7 July, 1983 honourable members will recall that, out of a concern and respect to a possible impairment of the rights of an ongoing user, a significant amendment was made and there were some imp rovements in the wording of the bill made pursuant to the constructive advice and criticism that came from members of the opposition, particularly from the Mem ber for Turtle Mountain. Those amendments have been embodied in the bill, as it now stands before the House and I commend it to the House for passage. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker , I move, seconded by the Mem ber for La Verendrye, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. BILL 76 - THE CROWN LANDS ACT HON. A. MACKLING presented Bill No. 76,

An Act to amend The Crown Lands Act, for third reading. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Mi nister. HON. A. MACK LING: Mr. Speak er, again I indicate that during the course of the review by the Law Amendments Commit tee, a full explanation was given, particularly to those concerns that were raised by the Member for Lakeside and this bill does provide for an imp rovement in the administrative capacity of the department in respect to Crown lands. It does facilita te the municipalities and the local government districts in the collection of taxes.

It is a sign ificant im provement for the department and for local government districts and municipalit ies and will facilitate all of those interests. I migh t sa y, Mr . Sp eak er, that in pas sing and commenting on the administration of Crown lands, in introducing the bill in second reading, I indicated that by and large the administration of Crown lands has been one that we have taken some care to consider.

We have looked at the sale practices and we have, under this administra tion, emba rked on a policy to permit commercial operators, particularly those who are operating lodges and resorts that have had difficulty in the past in obtaining financing because of the fact that they didn't have security of title, to now obtain security of title. I th erefore bel ieve, Mr .

Sp eaker , that the administration of Crown lands in this province has been advanced during our short tenure of office and I think most people in Manitoba are very happy about the manner of administration of those Crown lands and which belies the argument that has often been put from across the way that somehow, Mr. Speaker, we have a very narrow approach to the use of Crown lands. That has not been the case and this act confirms that and enhances our sound administration of Crown lands, and I commend the passage of this bill to the House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Turtle Mountain. MR. B.

RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Memb er for Sturgeon Creek, tha t deba te be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. MACKLING: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speak er, I move, seconded by the Mini ster of Housing THAT Bill 45,

An Act to amend The Forest Act be amended

a) by striking out the figure "6" in the first line of the proposed subsection 45( 1) ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I believe it's necessary to put the motion before the House, shall the report of the Comm ittee on Bill 45 be concurred in. The Honourable Mini ster of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speak er, I move, seconded by the Minister of Housing, that the Report Stage of Bill No. 45 be concurred in. REPORT STAGE BILL 45 - THE FOREST ACT MR. SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Mini ster have an amendment? HON. B. URUSKI: I move, seconded by the Honourable Mini ster of Housing THAT Bill 45,

An Act to amend The Forest Act be amended (

a) by striking out figure "6" in the 1st line of the proposed subsection 45( 1) of The Forest Act as set out in

section 1 of the bill, and substituting therefor the figur e "9"; (

b) by striking out the figur e "6" in the 1st line of the proposed clause 45(2)(

a) of The Forest Act as set out in

section 1 of the bill, and substituting therefor figur e "9"; (

c) by striking out the figur es "1 983" in the 2nd line of the proposed clause 45(2)(

a) of The Forest Act as set out in

section 1 of the bill, and substituting therefor the figu res "19 86"; and (

d) by striking out the figure "6" in the 1st line of the proposed clause 45(2)(

b) of The Forest Act as set out in

section 1 of the bill, and substituting therefor the figure "9". MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? Question before the House is the amendment as read. The Honourable Mini ster of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKUNG: Unless someone else wishes to speak, Mr. Spe aker, I will speak. 4177

Thursday, 7 July, 1983 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: They want to pass it, Mr. Speak er, we'll allow it to be passed. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. MR. SPEAKER: Are there any further amendments? The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Sp eaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Housing that Bill No. 44,

An Act to amend The Fisheries Act be now concurred in. BILL NO. 44 - THE FISHERIES ACT MR. B. URUSKI: I move, seconded by the Minister of Housing THAT Bill No. 44,

An Act to amend The Fisheries Act, be amended (

a) by striking out the figure "6" in the 1st line of the proposed subsection 31(1) of The Fisheries Act as set out in

section 1 of the bill, and substituting therefor the figur e "9"; {

b) by striking out the figure "6" in the 1st line of the pr opo sed cla use 31 (2) (

a) of The Fisheries Act as set out in

section 1 of the bill, and substituting therefor the figure "9"; (

c) by striking out the figur es "1 983" in the 3rd line of the proposed clause 31 (2)(

a) of The Fisheries Act as set out in

section 1 of the bill, and substiting th erefor the figur es "19 84"; and (

d) by striking out the figure "6" in the 1s t line of the propo sed cl ause 31 (2 )(

b) of The Fisheries Act as set out in

section 1 of the bill, and substituting the refor the fig ure "9". MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Springfield on a point of order. MR. A. ANSTETT: Yes, Mr . Speaker , until the amendment just moved by the Minister of Agriculture was moved, I didn't realize this amendment dealt with The Forest Act rather than with The Fisheries Act - the second amendment that he's now moving. Sir , on a point of order, we should have passed the motion for concurr ence in Report Stage of Bill 44 before proceeding to report stage of Bill 45.

Otherwise we're going to end up amending Bill 44 with an amendment that was designed for Bill 45. MR. SPEAKER: I thank the Honourable Memb er for Springfield for his remarks. I was in error in not putting the motion to the House on the report, as amended, on the previous Bill 45. Do I have the leave of the House to go back to take care of that? (Agreed) QUESTION put on motion as amended and carried. MR. SPEAKER: It is moved by the Honourable Minister of Agriculture and seconded by the Honourable Minister of Housing, the amendment as read, Bill 44. QUESTION put on amendment and carried. MR.

SPEAKER: Will the Ho nour able Government House Leader indicate if there are further amendments to this bill? HON. A. MACKLING: Move the report as amended? MR. SPEAKER: The question before the House then is, shall the report of the comm ittee as amended be concurred in? QUESTION put, MOTION carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Government House Leader. HON. A. MACKLING: 4:30, Mr. Speak er. MR. SPEAKER: The time being 4:30, Private Mem bers' Hour. PRIVATE MEMBERS' HOUR MR.

SPEAKER: The first item on the agenda for Thursday's Private Members' Hour is the proposed motion of the Honourable Attorney-General, Bill No. 41, the Honourable Mem ber for Concordia. (Stand) On the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for River East, Bill No. 58, the Honourable Member for Rhineland. (Stand) On the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for River East, Bill No. 94, the Honourable Member for Fort Garry. (Stand) ADJOURNED DE BATES ON SECOND READING - PRIVATE BILLS MR. SPEAKER: Debates on second reading of private bill s.

On the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Fort Gar ry, Bill No. 52, the Honourable Member for River East. (Stand) PROPOSED RESOLUTIONS RES. NO. 15 - AGRICUL TURE IN THE NORTH MR. SPEAKER: On the proposed priva te members' res olutions, Res olution No. 15. On the pro posed resolution of the Honourable Member for The Pas, the Hon ourable Mini ster of Housing ha s 11 minu tes remai ning. HON. J. STORIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker , just a couple of words by way of conclusion to my remarks last time.

The amendment, as I indicated, which was brought in by the Member for The Pas, is a particularly appropria te one and one, I think, which increasingly is attracting attention on the part of residents of Northern Manitoba and residents of other parts of the province as an area where there is a need for a good deal of experimentation and a good deal of innovation and perhaps some addit ional comm itments on the part of northern residents, on the part of the Department of Agriculture, on the part of the Faculty of Agriculture in terms of 4178

Thursday, 7 July, 1983 providing information, in terms of providing incentive and assistance to those people in Northern Manitoba who would like to pursue the development of agricultural land, those people who would like to pursue the development of agricultur al produc ts in No rthern Manitoba.

A number of years ago, I belie ve it was the Norman Regional Development Corporation which sponsored a conference on the whole issue of the agricultural potential of Northern Manitoba and I think the results, without doubt, astou nded a numb er of people, particularly residents of Northern Manitoba who, by and large, are unaware of the fact that there are literally mill ions of acres of arable land in the northern regions of this country. I'm proud to say that a good deal of that agricultural land lies within and adjacent to my constituency.

In fact, one of the communities in my constituency, I think, can credibly claim that it was a leader in the development of knowledge in the area of agriculture and that's the community of Wabowden, where for many years there was an active agricultural presence, where there was research ongoing, and where the community became involved and interested in the potential for the development of agricultural products in a climate which is certainly different from what we come to think of as an agricultural area.

So, I think the fact that that experimenting was going on has led to an increased awareness of the potential in the Wabowden area and, in fact, there are still farmers of sorts in the Wabowden area. As I've indicated, there is farming activity going on in other parts of the Flin Flin constituency. There is an active farming operation in the Snow Lake area as well as in Flin Flon, and although by any standards those operations are small, I think they are proving that the land has the capacity to produce products. It is possible for cattle to be produced in the area.

What we need to do is to expand our knowledge about the potential for increasing cattle production and perhaps what we need as well is an expansion of our parameters, our livestock industry parameters. Certain ly, th ere ha s been li ttle experimentation with other forms of livestock such as goats, beefalo, any number of crosses between cattle and game. So in most respects we have tried some traditional agricultural production in Northern Manitoba. We have not by any stretch of the imagination extended what is possible and attempted to be brave and pioneering in what we tried to do.

Certain ly, it seems to me that there is bound to be some potential for what we might term more exotic forms of livestock in Northern Manitoba, and whether we're (I nterjection) the Member for Tuxedo suggests gi raffes. It shows his limited knowledge of the clima te that I come from. However, by exotic, we certainly might include goats which do not enjoy wide support by the public as red meat. There are certainly those people who enjoy the eating of goat meat, but I'm thinking that it's possible that Northern Manitoba could expand into such areas of livestock quite adequately.

Certainly we would have to acknowledge that we don't have the potential for ranc h-s tyle op erat ions which occur in southern Manitoba or other western provinces, but we do have the potential for lim ited livestock production in its standard form. (I nterjection) Mr. Speak er, we do have that potential and the Member for Turtle Mountain, in all seriousness I think, sugge sts game ranching of one form or another.

Obviously any number of things could be discussed as potential, and whether we want it to be game ranching or some other form of endeavour is certai nly open to question, but we have to use our imagination. The other thing that I mentioned previously was the area of small market gardens, utilizing energy that comes from the smelter process in Flin Flon. It was sugg ested that it might be quite feasible to use the heat that's produced in the smelter process for the development of greenhouses so we could get into a limi ted form of market gardening.

Obviously there is potential for individual private market gardens using, I suppose, principally greenhouses; those kinds of things have to be introduced. There has to be, I suppose, a comm itment to experimentation of all kinds and hopefully that can happen. I think that the resolution is a good one. I recognize it has been sup por ted by mem bers op posite wholeheartedly I believe, and I think that's a positive sign. Thank you very much, Mr. Speak er. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Minister of Housing reminded me of a topic that deserves some discussion under this question of agriculture in the North. The Minister of Housing was talking about goats, and goats not receiving a high rate of acceptance among the publi c, Mr. Speaker , and that may be. My experience with goats has been somewhat limi ted. - (I nterjection)- MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order pleasef MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speak er, that's the sort of comment that I get from the Member for Radisson, for instance, who says that I'm sitting beside a goat.

That's the same membe r, Sir , that anytime that there is some sort of comment made across the way, he takes great exception to. I take it in the jocular fashion, Mr. Speak er, that I'm sure the Member for Radisson had intended as he put that forward. After all ... Mr. Spea ker, I'd like to say a few words about the project that was a possibility in the northern part of Manitoba, the mid-northern part at least, that was not perhaps the sort of agriculture that would normally be consid ered as such .

In fact, maybe some people wouldn't consider it as agriculture at all, but there is a vast area in the Northern Interlake, the part of our province that lies to the west of No. 6 Hig hway and north from Gypsumville towards Easterville, the western part of the Northern Interlake, that has a - (Interjection) - well, it's north of Basket Lake and in that area. It is beautiful country that is ridge and swale type of country, Sir , that has vast open sedge meadows with better drain, wooded ridges in between and vast areas of willow and also some fairly substantial lakes as one goes further north.

That area at the moment has some numbers of moose, although they have been greatly reduced over the past years; there are some elk in that area and deer. But there is a possibility existing there, Mr. Speaker, where bison could be introduced into that 4179

Thursday, 7 July, 1983 area and would be able to thriv e in that area on the basis of the best information that we have available from people who are knowledgeable about bison; that there is a very high probabil ity, almos t a certain ty, that the animals could be introduced into that area. Given the proper type of management where one begins by confining bison within a small area and those bison then rear young of their own and those young bison then become impr inted on the area, much the same way that Canada geese become impr inted on the area where they are raised.

You then can release those animals into the wild and they will not move far from the area where they are raised. One then has the possibility of developing a herd of animals that it is estimated there could be up to 5,000 such animals, Sir. This, of course, would be a slightly different