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April

11, 2017

RESOURCE

COMMITTEE

Pursuant

to Standing Order 68, Barry Petten, MHA for Conception Bay South, substitutes

for David Brazil, MHA for Conception Bay East Bell Island.

The

Committee met 6 p.m. in the Assembly Chamber.

CLERK (Murphy):

The first order of business

is to elect a Chair. Are there any nominations?

MR. FINN:

I nominate the Member for

Baie Verte Green Bay.

CLERK:

Okay.

Any

further nominations?

MR. K. PARSONS:

I'll second that.

CLERK:

Okay.

The

motion is that the Member for Baie Verte Green Bay be elected Chair.

All

those in favour?

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CLERK:

Contrary?

Carried.

Thank

you.

CHAIR (Warr):

And thank you again for your

vote of confidence.

Good

evening. My first order of business this evening, besides a welcome to

everybody, is to elect a Vice-Chair. And the Chair would certainly entertain

motions for the Vice-Chair of the Resource Committee.

MR. FINN:

I move the Member for Cape

St. Francis.

CHAIR:

Seconder for that?

MR. D. BENNETT:

Seconded.

CHAIR:

Any further nominations?

declare the Member for Cape St. Francis as Vice-Chair of the Resource Committee.

Before

we get started I just wanted to take obviously the minister will have an

opportunity to introduce his staff just a minute and we'll start at Mr.

Parsons to introduce the Committee. I'd ask that all Members tonight recognize

yourself and wait for the tally light to come on and then you can go ahead and

speak.

So if we

can start with Mr. Parsons.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Yes, my name is Kevin Parsons

and I'm from the beautiful District of Cape St. Francis.

MS. BONIA:

Laurie Bonia, Researcher,

Opposition Office.

MR. PETTEN:

Barry Petten, MHA for

Conception Bay South.

MR. SHEPPARD:

James Sheppard, Researcher,

Opposition Office.

MS. MICHAEL:

Lorraine Michael, I'm from

the historic District of St. John's East Quidi Vidi.

MR. MORGAN:

Ivan Morgan, NDP caucus,

Researcher.

MS. P. PARSONS:

I'm Pam Parsons and I'm from

the strong District of Harbour Grace Port de Grave.

MR. DEAN:

Jerry Dean, MHA for Exploits.

MR. D. BENNETT:

Derek Bennett, MHA for the

beautiful and scenic District of Lewisporte Twillingate.

MR. FINN:

John Finn, Stephenville

Port au Port.

CHAIR:

Thank you very much.

Normally

when we're doing Estimates, we probably go in sections. Is everybody okay with

that?

AN HON. MEMBER:

Yeah.

CHAIR:

Okay.

MR. K. PARSONS:

(Inaudible.)

CHAIR:

Sure.

MR. K. PARSONS:

There are a couple of

sections in the end that relates to Fisheries: sections 5.2.01 and 5.1.03 and

5.1.02. Both of those relate to the Fisheries and Aquaculture and both of them

are there at the end. So I'd like, if we could, put those in with our Estimates

and do it under Fisheries because both are related to, if that's okay.

CHAIR:

That's fine.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay, so when you're calling

the subheadings.

CLERK:

1.1.01.

CHAIR:

Shall 1.1.01 carry?

Mr.

Crocker.

MR. CROCKER:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I had

some opening remarks but I will dispense of that because it's a big binder and

in respect of the time of the Committee, but, again, thank you for the

opportunity.

I guess

for me, as a department, there have been a lot of changes since I appeared

before the Estimates Committee last year when we dealt with the Fisheries and

Aquaculture department. We have a much bigger binder tonight.

I will

let the staff, starting on my left, introduce themselves and we'll take it from

there.

MS. COMPANION:

Lori Anne Companion, Deputy

Minister, Fisheries and Land Resources.

MR. IVIMEY:

Philip Ivimey, Departmental

Controller, Fisheries and Land Resources.

and I'm from the GMO.

MR. BALSOM:

Stephen Balsom, Assistant

Deputy Minister of Forestry and Wildlife.

MR. DEERING:

I'm Keith Deering. I'm

Assistant Deputy Minister for the Agrifoods and Lands Branch.

MS. WISEMAN:

Wanda Wiseman. I'm ADM for

Fisheries and Aquaculture.

MR. GRACE:

Tony Grace and I'm the ADM

for Enforcement and Resource Services.

MS. COLMAN-SADD:

Vanessa Colman-Sadd, Director

of Communications, Fisheries and Land Resources.

MR. CROCKER:

Okay, Mr. Chair, we can

certainly start if the Committee is ready.

CHAIR:

Okay.

Mr.

Parsons?

MR. K. PARSONS:

Yeah, okay.

As the

minister just indicated, this department now from last year, from 2016 to 2017,

there are a lot of different responsibilities I guess. The department's budget

itself has gone from $19 million to $98 million so there's a lot here to go

through tonight. We'll try to do our best to get through all the items, the

important ones and stuff like that.

Would

you be able to provide a chart outlining the department including all the

divisions and responsibilities?

MR. CROCKER:

An org chart?

MR. K. PARSONS:

Well, yeah, because it's hard

to follow and understand where all the divisions are and what they're

MR. CROCKER:

Yeah.

MR. K. PARSONS:

So I'd prefer if you had some

kind of chart and the divisions.

MR. CROCKER:

That's certainly something we

can provide.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

When I

go to a lot of the questions tonight, just not to be repetitive of what I'm

asking for, a lot of times when we're looking at salaries and stuff like that,

I'm going to want positions and I'm going to want to know what the person when

there's a reduction and stuff like that, that person, that position that they

had and what their job was, if there's a reduction there. Because you're going

to see that there's going to be so I'm going to need all that too. So just to

give you an advance

MR. CROCKER:

Yeah, if you wish we could

provide you with a full overview. Like just, I could go down through it. So if

you didn't want to do it all line by line, I could tell you what the changes

were.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Yeah, I'm going to go line by

line but just to give you the heads up that that's what I'm going to be looking

for so I don't need to go through stuff like that.

MR. CROCKER:

Yeah, sure.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Do you have any idea how many

people were employed in the Department of Fisheries and aquaculture last year?

In the whole department last year, how many people?

MR. CROCKER:

In the new department?

MR. K. PARSONS:

Yeah.

MR. CROCKER:

Depending on the seasonality,

because there are some seasonal portions of the department when you look at fire

suppression and you look at our silviculture program, but it ranges anywhere

between 1,000 and 1,100.

MR. K. PARSONS:

One thousand and 1,100?

MR. CROCKER:

Yeah.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

What

increase is that now from last year? How big is the department after growing?

MR. CROCKER:

That would be stable from

last year. There would be some reductions in the management structure.

MR. K. PARSONS:

But that's just in Fisheries,

is it? Is that in both Lands and Fisheries or ?

MR. CROCKER:

No, no, that's in the

department.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

MR. CROCKER:

Yeah.

I think

the number in Fisheries and Wanda, I don't know if you can answer that, but I

think the number in Fisheries is around 100.

MS. WISEMAN:

Right now, it's about 100 but

it depends on when seasonal staff comes on.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

Let's go

section 1.1.01 and let's look at the Salaries line there, 01, Salaries. Why

is there $30,300 less than what's actually because it's back to where it was,

but last year the revised

MR. CROCKER:

Yeah, if my understanding is

correct, the Minister's Office maintains the ability for an automobile allowance

if the minister chooses that option.

MR. K. PARSONS:

So automobile allowance is

$30,300?

MR. CROCKER:

That would be the budgeted

amount for the automobile allowance in Minister's Office.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

Under

Transportation and Communications, there's an extra $10,000 budgeted from last

year.

MR. CROCKER:

Yeah, and the explanation for

that: Last year the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture, as an example, would

be responsible for one FPT meeting. The minister's office right now is

responsible for four FPT meetings so that itself, with the expansion of the

department, brings expanded travel unfortunately.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Under Supplies you have

$2,000 budgeted last year and you spent $2,000, but this year you're only going

to spend $900.

MR. CROCKER:

Yes, that's based on

zero-based budgeting.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Last year under the total

under the Minister's Office we're looking at a difference of $29,000. What are

you budgeting additional this year that there is going to be an additional

$36,300?

MR. CROCKER:

Did you say a $29,000

difference?

MR. K. PARSONS:

Well it was different than

what you spent last year, what you revised.

MR. CROCKER:

Yeah, well, again, it would

MR. K. PARSONS:

And then this year you're

gone back up to even more than what you had budgeted last year.

MR. CROCKER:

That would be, I guess, a

combination of the travel allowance and the increase of the $10,000 in the

Minister's Office in the minister's T and C.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

On the

Executive Support, again the Salaries; there's quite a reduction there in the

salaries. Again, this is the part where I'd like to know what salary reductions

were there and the positions that were eliminated.

MR. CROCKER:

Okay, so that would be from

the departmental reorganization. It would be the CEO for Forestry and the

secretary to the CEO for Forestry, the ADM of Aquaculture and the ADM's

secretary. There was a manager of communications that was transferred from

planning and admin to Executive Support.

MR. K. PARSONS:

These positions that are

eliminated, are there added duties to other departments?

MR. CROCKER:

The structure of the new

department would be: Wanda Wiseman last year would have been the ADM of

Fisheries and she's now the ADM of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

MR. K. PARSONS:

To the line with

Transportation and Communications, again we're seeing $139,500 and this year

it's down to $120,000.

MR. CROCKER:

Yes, that variance is due to

the reduction in discretionary travel.

MR. K. PARSONS:

section 1.2.02,

Administrative Support, under Property, Furnishings and Equipment can you

explain the increase that's going to cause the $491,000 there now?

MR. CROCKER:

Yes, the additional

expenditure is this year's budget contained the purchase of a new vessel for the

aquaculture industry. In 2.3.01, you'll see a reduction of approximately, I

think, $300,000. We were leasing and renting vessels, so what we're doing this

year is we're going to be buying a vessel for the aquaculture industry.

MR. K. PARSONS:

How many vessels did you

lease last year?

MR. CROCKER:

That was done through a

contract from the Marine Institute or, sorry, was it Memorial, Wanda?

MS. WISEMAN:

The Marine Institute.

MR. CROCKER:

The Marine Institute. It was

a contracted service.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Will there be an added number

of vessels or a decreased number?

MR. CROCKER:

We will have our own vessel

now to do the bay management work.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

MR. CROCKER:

Actually, the vessel is a

replacement for a smaller, older outdated vessel.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

Under

revenue, what is the $28,000 that you're talking about?

MR. CROCKER:

Revenue is from Newfoundland

and Labrador Hydro, the reimbursement of the cost of a vehicle required for

post-transmission line construction monitoring south of Bay du Nord Wilderness

Reserve.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

Can we

go to

section 2.1.01? Can you explain the decrease in the Salaries and the

positions also? I'd like to know what the positions are.

MR. CROCKER:

There's a JES adjustment

required for 2017-2018. The management reorganization resulted in the

elimination of three regional director positions.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Where were those regional

directors to?

MR. CROCKER:

There was a regional director

position in Grand Bank which was vacant, there was a regional director in Happy

Valley-Goose Bay and there was a regional director in Corner Brook.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

What

does that mean for province wide now when it comes to regions, representation

and stuff like that? How many regional directors do we have in the province now?

MR. CROCKER:

In the Fisheries Branch?

MR. K. PARSONS:

Yes.

MR. CROCKER:

We don't have regional

directors any longer.

MR. K. PARSONS:

So that's eliminated

altogether?

MR. CROCKER:

Yes.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

Under

Transportation and Communications, we're down less again. Can you explain that?

MR. CROCKER:

Yes, the variance is due to a

reduction in discretionary travel, less need for vehicle usage for training and

meetings in the field and other things such as reduction in the cost of phones,

air mileage, freight, et cetera.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

Under

Purchased Services, there's a revised of about $7,000 more and then it goes back

to where we were last year basically. What's the cause of the discrepancy?

MR. CROCKER:

The variance was due to

higher-than-anticipated office lease costs. We're going to be able to go back

there back this year to a little less than what we budgeted last year by

consolidation of offices. One of the things the new department does and gives us

an opportunity to do is consolidation of office space, because in many cases in

communities around the province, we would have had maybe three, in some cases,

maybe four footprints.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

Under

Grants and Subsidies there's nothing there at all this year. Why are you not

budgeting anything under Grants and Subsidies? What were the Grants and

Subsidies that you budgeted last year?

MR. CROCKER:

Yeah, that was, last year as

I'm sure you can remember, the elimination of the Special Assistance Grants. So

there was $10,000 budgeted last year for Special Assistance Grants to cover off

any projects that were left from the previous fiscal year.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Are there any talks of

anything for harbour authorities or harbours to apply for anything in the

Department of Fisheries? I think I asked you a question about that one day

before on that.

MR. CROCKER:

Unfortunately, no, not at

this point in time.

MR. K. PARSONS:

So you have no money allotted

for any harbour authorities?

MR. CROCKER:

Correct.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Back in 2015-'16, there was

how much money in that account? Do you remember?

MR. CROCKER:

There was $300,000.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Three hundred thousand

dollars?

that's completely eliminated. Okay.

MR. CROCKER:

That was eliminated in budget

2015-'16.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Last year's budget. Okay, so

$10,000.

MR. CROCKER:

And the $10,000 was for

projects that hadn't concluded or just as a safety.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

We'll go

section 2.2.01.

CHAIR:

Can I intercede here because

we said from the beginning that we were going to go by subheads.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

CHAIR:

This should have been from

1.2.01 to 1.2.03.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

CHAIR:

I just noticed that Mr.

Parsons has gone into 2.1.01.

Mr.

Parsons, if you're finished with those subheads, I'll just pass them on and

we'll come back and vote on them and then go to the next.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Sure, no problem at all.

CHAIR:

Mr. Petten, anything on ?

MR. PETTEN:

No, I'm good.

CHAIR:

Okay.

Ms.

Michael, on 1.2.01 to 1.2.02?

MS. MICHAEL:

No, everything is fine.

CHAIR:

Everything is fine?

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes, wait now. No, everything

is fine. I do want to ask something under 2.1.01.

CHAIR:

Okay.

We'll

vote on 1.2.01 to 1.2.02.

All

those in favour?

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

Passed.

motion, subheads 1.2.01 through 1.2.02 carried.

CHAIR:

We have 2.1.01 to actually,

that one is on its own.

2.1.01;

Mr. Parsons, anything further on ?

MR. K. PARSONS:

Yes. Under the Seafood

Marketing and Support Services, Salaries, why is there a difference between what

we allotted last year and what was actually revised, and we're back to basically

where we were with budget on 2016.

MR. CROCKER:

Yeah, there was a vacancy of

a planning supervisor due to maternity leave.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

Under

Transportation and Communications, there is a small difference. What's the

reason why there's ?

MR. CROCKER:

That number of the $1,000 was

based on zero-based budgeting.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

What

does that include?

MR. CROCKER:

That would be as an

example, the $200 that was spent in '16-'17 was fees for the North American

Seafood Forum Conference in Norway. So this would be membership fees, seminars

and conferences.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

Under

this whole Seafood Marketing and Support Services, basically we're doing the

same as what we did last year when it comes to budgeting, yet we should as we

know with the fishery, is marketing is a major issue right now with all

harvesters in the province especially when you're talking about changing from

shellfish to groundfish. Why aren't we spending more money on the marketing

aspect?

MR. CROCKER:

Well, this particular piece

of marketing support would actually be funding for the seafood shows we attend;

the seafood show in North America, China, Seafood Expo, Brussels, Seafood Expo,

Asia. We haven't changed our these are the seafood shows we need to be at in

the world. So we wouldn't have changed our focus of the shows we attend.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

Under

the next section, 2.2.02, Licensing and Quality Assurance; this is related with

fish buyers and processors licences. As you're familiar, myself and you and your

department had some discussions on this a little while ago. I believe there is

I could be corrected, you can correct me if you like a freeze on these

licences.

MR. CROCKER:

Well, no, there's not a

freeze on licences. It depends on what type of licence you're looking for.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Yeah. What I'm talking about

is the one we discussed further about harvesters and the small licences because

a lot of harvesters want to get into that kind of field now, as you're aware.

MR. CROCKER:

Yeah. So there is a freeze.

Groundfish, for example

MR. K. PARSONS:

Yeah.

MR. CROCKER:

there is a freeze on

groundfish. We haven't issued a new groundfish processing licence in the

province since 1992. So this supports the licensing board. Last year, for

example, we had five meetings for licensing applications, because even though we

don't do groundfish applications, we had a licence application, the board met

two weeks ago. There was a new sea urchin licence that was applied for and

received. There were other licences that were applied for and received, and

there were other licences that were applied for and denied. There is a

MR. K. PARSONS:

Yeah.

MR. CROCKER:

So the board met five times

last year. There is a constant request for licensing and in different species.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Oh, I know that. We went back

and some harvesters, especially groundfish and cod, are looking to be able to do

some production themselves.

MR. CROCKER:

Yeah.

MR. K. PARSONS:

And there is a licence, and

obviously there are regulations and everything that's in place.

MR. CROCKER:

Right.

MR. K. PARSONS:

What's being told is that

there's a freeze on this. Is there any way of getting this off so people can

apply? Now, whether they're accepted or not is up to

MR. CROCKER:

Well, right now

MR. K. PARSONS:

But the harvesters themselves

believe there's a freeze.

MR. CROCKER:

Well, right now when you look

at groundfish, we wouldn't entertain new groundfish processing licences until we

reach the (inaudible). Until we get to a point where the moratorium removes from

groundfish, we wouldn't entertain new licences.

The

reality is in 1992, when the ground fishery closed, there were approximately 250

licences. Even today we're dealing with

OFFICIAL:

(Inaudible.)

MR. CROCKER:

Sorry, we're still dealing

with 45 groundfish processing licences in the province.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Yeah, you know the licences

I'm talking about. These are not commercial licences.

MR. CROCKER:

Yeah.

MR. K. PARSONS:

These are just the small

licences that are used for

MR. CROCKER:

Right.

MR. K. PARSONS:

your local markets and stuff like that.

MR. CROCKER:

Yeah, and that opportunity is

there but that opportunity, that's the

MS. WISEMAN:

The province does have

various types of licences. What you're talking about is a buyer's licence I

believe.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Yes.

MS. WISEMAN:

There is a freeze on buyer's

licences. Most of the buyer's licences that are in place right now are really on

lobster, and those are the ones that freeze.

The

other type of licence you're talking about is the restricted buyer's licences,

which they can apply for if they own a restaurant or they want to sell products.

If they want to sell it to themselves they could still apply for those. We give

those out. We gave out about 20 or 30 last year.

There

are also other ways to get licences. Licence holders whose licences are

inactive, they can be transferred. So there are options.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

MR. CROCKER:

(Inaudible) licence that you

and I met on back in the winter was one of the ones that was approved at the

last meeting of the licensing board.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

CHAIR:

Before I allow the hon.

Member to go ahead, I must remind him that his speaking time has expired. I can

come back but I wanted Ms. Michael now on 2.2.01 to 2.2.05.

MS. MICHAEL:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

If I

could come back to 2.1.01 first, Minister, you talked about the three regional

directors being gone. I guess I'm curious about this is under Regional Services

and yet the directors for the regions are gone. What was their role and how is

what they were doing taken up?

MR. CROCKER:

Their role was they were

reported to our regional field staff would have reported to them. Now our

regional field staff will report to the director directly. I guess the reasoning

is some of the modernization in the department and I'll go back to the fact

that at one point in time we had 250 groundfish licences in the province. Today

we have 45.

If you

look at crab, for example, today we have just 25 crab plants and eight shrimp

plants. I guess the concentration of the industry has come down from a point

where it can certainly be serviced differently than it would have been when we

had literally hundreds of processing facilities.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right. When you say the

director, you mean here in the department?

MR. CROCKER:

The departmental director,

yes.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right, in St. John's.

MR. CROCKER:

Yes, so that person will be

reported to now by our field staff.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

Thank

you.

And

2.2.01, with regard to the marketing I've been several years now, many years,

asking about the seafood marketing plan. I know that it's in your mandate to

establish a council. Can you give us an idea of where that is, the seafood

marketing council?

MR. CROCKER:

Right. That's actually one of

the things that we will look at with the Fisheries Advisory Council. Just to

update that, we've appointed the chair of the Fisheries Advisory Council a

number of weeks ago and we're very near to appointing the rest of the complement

of the Fisheries Advisory Council which will happen in the near future.

If you

look at seafood marketing, it's an extremely important function of us as a

government to make sure we're doing it. This money does focus on selling our

seafood around the world. China right now is 20 per cent, and growing, of where

our seafood actually goes. As well, one of the parts of the Atlantic Fisheries

Fund is a separate fund of $30 million for seafood marketing that we can

leverage.

One of

the things I think is important when we talk about seafood marketing: We can

work very well with the provinces in Atlantic Canada for seafood marketing. One

example, just this year we were able to save approximately $70,000 in Boston by

going into an Atlantic Pavilion, and ACOA, being an Atlantic Canadian project,

came on board and helped us with that as well. There are many opportunities for

marketing.

MS. MICHAEL:

Great.

Thank

you very much.

2.2.03,

Fisheries Innovation and Development; you're going to get this question each

time in Salaries. Could you tell us, I presume a position must have been

eliminated there?

MR. CROCKER:

Yes, management

reorganization resulted in the elimination of a vacant director position. The

director of marketing is now responsible for Innovation and Development as well.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right.

Thank

you.

I have

no more questions for that section.

2.2.04,

the $10 million, I guess you're going to have to explain to us. I think there

are some changes here. If you could explain to us where the $10 million is

coming from and what it's going to be covering.

MR. CROCKER:

The $10 million is

MS. MICHAEL:

Well, I know it's a federal

and provincial split.

MR. CROCKER:

Right, so the $10 million is

in anticipation of the conclusion of the negotiation and the framework of the

Atlantic Fisheries Fund. We wanted to make sure that there was some money

budgeted for this year so that we were in a position to immediately lever the

federal funding, as it starts to become available, to make sure we're getting it

into the hands of harvesters and processors.

MS. MICHAEL:

What is your expectation

about when all of them because it's $100 million in all, right?

MR. CROCKER:

Right.

MS. MICHAEL:

When is your expectation

about how that is going to unfold?

MR. CROCKER:

We're still in that

negotiation, as recently as yesterday. We're anticipating to conclude that

agreement in the very near-to-medium future at that latest.

The

reason why this showed up this year was we wanted to make sure we had sufficient

funding there so that we could actually lever some of that money this year. We

haven't reached a final agreement but we're treating it as a 70-30 which is

typical federal-provincial agreement. There would also be stakeholder or

industry participation as well, but we just wanted to be sure that we are able

to avail of that money in this fiscal year.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right.

Minister, the description of the fund talks about funding support will be in key

areas like research and development, innovative technology, marketing, science

and infrastructure. Do you have any ideas around that? Is it just going to be

open to people applying for grants? How exactly is it going to work?

MR. CROCKER:

Again, it's subject to a

negotiation, but I see it very much like our Seafood Innovation and Transition

Program that the province had last year where we had $2 million and we funded

projects for harvesters, whether it's hook-and-line technology, cod pot

technology, slurry systems.

One of

the focuses that we need to do on the harvesting side as we go forward in this

is to ensure that quality is job one from sea to plate. That's one of the things

we see as a priority for this fund.

Also,

when we look at our processing industry we've seen a large number of processors

in the province want to avail of new modern equipment, whether it's filleting

machines. One of the challenges that we have coming from 1992 to present is most

of the equipment you would find in our remaining groundfish plants is antiquated

to say the least. There is an opportunity here for us now to be able to help.

As an

example, in our Seafood Transition Program, the under 40 fleet qualifies for an

80-20 cost-sharing ratio. The over 40 fleet is usually 60-40 and the processing

sector is done on a 50-50 basis.

MS. MICHAEL:

Minister, you have made

reference to the $2 million last year, just over $2 million. Was that spent? Is

it all gone or ?

MR. CROCKER:

Yeah, that was spent.

Actually, our request last year for that fund was somewhere in the vicinity of

$6.7 million. The encouraging part of that is we see the harvesting and

processing sector willing to step up to invest in a ground fishery or a

transition. So, yeah, the requests were about $6.7 million last year.

MS. MICHAEL:

Would we be able to get a

breakdown of where the $2 million went?

MR. CROCKER:

Yes. It's actually been

published but we can certainly get you a copy of it.

MS. MICHAEL:

Or we can look for it.

MR. CROCKER:

Yeah.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

Thank

you very much.

MR. CROCKER:

Just to add, I guess, back to

the Seafood Transition Program in our budget release, on this line we have $3

million budgeted, but we would also be able to leverage that $2 million. So we

would have over $5 million available this year to leverage federal funding.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay, besides, added to the

$10 million.

MR. CROCKER:

Right. The $2 million that we

have for the Seafood Transition Program would also be money that we could

leverage against federal funding.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

Where

would you find that then in the Estimates, that $2 million?

MR. CROCKER:

The $2 million would be under

the seafood I'm not sure if we're up to it yet or not.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

MR. CROCKER:

It would be under the Seafood

Innovation and Transition Program.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

Thank

you.

MR. CROCKER:

The current program.

MS. MICHAEL:

The current program.

Thank

you very much.

That was

a good answer. Thank you. Nice detail there.

Coming

to 2.3

CHAIR:

We're going to vote on those

subheads first.

MS. MICHAEL:

Oh, all right. Sorry.

CHAIR:

Are we finished with 2.2.01

to 2.2.05?

Mr.

Parsons, anything further on ?

MR. K. PARSONS:

If I could ask.

MR. CROCKER:

Okay.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Just the one we're at right

now it's

section 2.2.03 can you explain what the Grants and Subsidies are

for, that $2.2 million?

MR. CROCKER:

That would go back to Ms.

Michael's question. That $2.2 million would be $2 million for the Seafood

Innovation and Transition Program.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay, that's for this one.

MR. CROCKER:

That one goes back, and the

other $200,000 is the Seafood development program.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

Under

section 2.2.04, the Fisheries Innovation Fund, you're talking $10 million as

part of the $100 million Atlantic fund correct?

MR. CROCKER:

The Atlantic fund is $330

million.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Yes, but that's $10 million

of that and you're looking at the federal are putting in $7 million and the

province $3 million. Is that a 70-30 split is what is going to happen there?

MR. CROCKER:

Well, that is what we see as

the likely scenario. There could be a better scenario. There wouldn't be a

scenario other than 70-30 from our negotiations that we've had to date. So we

wouldn't look at a 60-40; we'd look at an 80-20. But 70-30, in all likelihood,

is where the negotiations are going to go.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

So the

$7 million, is that something that is going to be allotted by the federal

government this year?

MR. CROCKER:

It is available and that's

why we were sure to make sure that we had money in our budget because it's very

important at this point in time when we see the challenges in the fishery and

the momentum, because even though we had the challenges that we do have, there

is a certain momentum right now in the ground fishery back to my previous

point of the $6.7 million last year in requests of the seafood transition

program, we do see a willingness of harvesters and processors to want to invest.

So we

wanted to make sure that we had the allocation in our budget this year. Right

now, we have $5 million this year that we could leverage federal funding to make

sure that the harvesters and processors have an opportunity if they want to

invest, we're going to make sure that we have our portion of that investment.

MR. K. PARSONS:

So the federal fisheries fund

is basically what you're negotiating right now, it's a 70-30 split?

MR. CROCKER:

We wanted to be sure that we

had the money in this year's budget, but in all likelihood it would be a 70-30

split

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

MR. CROCKER:

without giving away our

negotiating (inaudible).

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

On this

Fisheries Fund and we talked about this before the Premier talked about

applications and there were absolutely no details worked out here at all. Have

there been any applications, or is there a way that someone can apply for this,

or how (inaudible)?

MR. CROCKER:

Not at this point in time.

MR. K. PARSONS:

There's nothing yet on that?

MR. CROCKER:

We're working on concluding a

framework agreement. The Seafood Innovation and Transition Program is available

to be applied for today. That one is available, but we have a commitment from

the federal government to flow money in this fiscal year from the new program.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

So what

section is that?

MR. CROCKER:

We're just on 2.2.01 to

2.2.05.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

I have

one more question. I just want to know I'm curious about this fund because,

again, the ground fishery is about to start soon, the shell fishery is in an

issue right now, we have quota cuts and everything else. I know there are

harvesters out there wondering what money is going to be available due to all

these cuts. What's the time frame you have put on it?

MR. CROCKER:

What's the time frame?

MR. K. PARSONS:

Yeah.

MR. CROCKER:

Our time frame is to have

money flowing in this fiscal year.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

MR. CROCKER:

If there are harvesters today

wanting to invest, our Seafood Innovation and Transition Program is available

today for application.

CHAIR:

Shall 2.2.01 to 2.2.05 carry?

All

those in favour?

MS. MICHAEL:

Mr. Chair, (inaudible).

CHAIR:

Oh, I'm sorry.

MS. MICHAEL:

Could I ask one more question

with regard to the fund, please?

CHAIR:

Absolutely.

MS. MICHAEL:

Minister, my understanding is

you're negotiating around $100 million that the government is going to give.

MR. CROCKER:

The framework.

MS. MICHAEL:

So when you talk about the

70-30 split, that doesn't mean only 70 per cent is coming from the feds, does

it?

MR. CROCKER:

No, so the total commitment

under this portion of this program, if it is finalized as a 70-30, would be

about a $143 million commitment.

MS. MICHAEL:

That's right.

Thank

you very much.

MR. CROCKER:

From the two levels of

government.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right.

Thank

you.

Now I'm

ready.

CHAIR:

So we're looking at subhead

2.2.01 to 2.2.05. Shall it carry?

All

those in favour?

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

Those against?

Carried.

motion, subheads 2.2.01 through 2.2.05 carried.

CHAIR:

We're at 2.3.01 and 2.3.02.

MR. K. PARSONS:

(Inaudible.)

CHAIR:

We skipped the seals. That

was included from 2.2.01 to 2.2.05. That's what it was called.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay, I'll ask my question on

seals at the end.

MR. CROCKER:

Yeah.

MR. K. PARSONS:

No problem. Okay.

MR. CROCKER:

If you want to ask the

question on seals

MR. K. PARSONS:

Yeah, while we're here now

I'd just like to

MR. CROCKER:

Yeah.

MR. K. PARSONS:

if you don't mind. Is it my turn or is it

MR. CROCKER:

I think it is, yeah.

MR. K. PARSONS:

My turn? Okay, perfect.

Just

looking at the revenue when it comes to seals, I know that we budgeted that we

were going to get $825,000. The revised on the revenue was $260,000 and this

year it's $150,000. Can you explain that to me?

MR. CROCKER:

That's a loan. There was an

inventory loan provided in fiscal 2014-2015 for $1 million. The outstanding

balance on the loan is $825,000. So we received $260,000 last year and the

anticipation is to receive $150,000 back this year correct?

OFFICIAL:

I expect we will probably

receive more than (inaudible).

MR. CROCKER:

Yes, more than $150,000 back

from that loan. It was the inventory loan in 2014-2015 to a company and this is

recovery.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay, that's good.

CHAIR:

2.3.01 and 2.3.02, Ms.

Michael, if you'd like to start this.

MS. MICHAEL:

Thank you very much.

Again,

could we have the explanation of the positions that are gone, the Salaries

indicate although it's not a lot, but

MR. CROCKER:

There was one policy position

was transferred to the Planning and Policy Division of the department which

accounts for the reduction in the salary.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay, thank you.

Under

Supplies, there's a major drop from last year's budget. Could we have an

explanation? It's almost $61,000.

MR. CROCKER:

Yeah, that was lower than

anticipated vehicle expenses. I guess one of the things a new department affords

us is a much larger fleet, and we're going to be able to actually remove some of

our more antiquated vehicles.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay, thank you.

Under

Professional Services, the Professional Services last year were $358,000 and the

estimate this year is only $8,000, so could we have an explanation. I think last

year money went for Bay Management under this, right?

MR. CROCKER:

That's the boat.

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes.

MR. CROCKER:

That was the $300,000 that we

would have used last year to contract out that work that the new vessel will

afford us to be able to do on our own.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

MR. CROCKER:

So the investment of the

approximately $300,000 in the new vessel will pay dividends year after year

because we'll have our own capability.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right.

So the

$358,000 was the Professional Services; this time you'll have the boat and you

already gave the cost, over $300,000, right, for the boat? Approximately.

MR. CROCKER:

We budgeted $300,000 for the

boat.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay, very good, thank you.

Under

Property, Furnishing and Equipment there is a variation upwards in the revision

and, this year, right down to $50,000.

MR. CROCKER:

The variation last year was

due to unanticipated boat repairs. We actually had a boat that sank and we had

unanticipated repairs. The other changes on that, if I'm reading this correctly,

is in Supplies

OFFICIAL:

It's associated with the contract.

MR. CROCKER:

Yes, it's associated with the

contract for the vessel.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

Thank

you very much.

I think

I have another question here.

We've

heard from the department that you are looking at having rules surrounding

aquaculture the rules around aquaculture need to be strengthened. There was a

commitment a few years ago to revise the regulations, the Code of Containment,

environmental guidelines, et cetera.

Are you

working on these regulations now, Minister, in the department? When do we expect

to see changes, a strengthening of the regulations?

MS. WISEMAN:

The activity regulations have already been put in place by the federal

government in collaboration with all of the provinces.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay. Are they in place now?

MS. WISEMAN:

We can get a list for you if you like, yeah.

MS. MICHAEL:

Please. It would be good to

get a copy.

MS. WISEMAN:

Yes, we can do that.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

MR. CROCKER:

Just to add to that point, at

a recent federal-provincial meeting there was a discussion around a federal

aquaculture act. Believe it or not, the biggest challenge is that's happening at

the federal agriculture table, not the fisheries table.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right.

MR. CROCKER:

The reality is aquaculture is

farming; the only difference is you're farming in the water versus farming on

land. A federal aquaculture act would likely come from the federal Department of

Agriculture.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right.

Minister, you probably won't have the answer to this but it might be something

that your department is looking at. Even though the regulations, I would assume,

would have environmental issues in there, I understand that this didn't happen

because I was looking up aquaculture. Actually, it was some other reason.

understand the Environmental Assessment Agency does not have aquaculture listed,

so there's no requirement under CEAA to do an environmental assessment with

regard to aquaculture. I've been told that just as recently as last week.

MR. CROCKER:

I'm not extremely well versed

in the environmental file.

MS. MICHAEL:

No, I realize. Yeah.

MR. CROCKER:

But correct

MS. WISEMAN:

It really depends on whether or not aquaculture is land based or in the ocean

and what type of activities are associated with the aquaculture that's being

proposed. If it goes through an assessment, it may not go through a full

assessment, but they'll do a review.

MS. MICHAEL:

Which one gets covered? Is it

the land based where it does fit into the list? I forget the proper name. I know

this from my work before.

MR. CROCKER:

(Inaudible) has been

developed. If you look at how our aquaculture industry has been developed in the

province, typically what we've seen is the sea cage sites are first.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right.

MR. CROCKER:

That doesn't require an

environmental assessment, sea cage sites. But when you move to the construction

of a hatchery, that requires an environmental assessment.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

MR. CROCKER:

I guess this leads to sort of

the situation we find ourselves in where the current proponent is doing it

simultaneously. But this is the first time it's been done this way in the

province because, previously, the industry came in, brought their smolt in from

New Brunswick or Nova Scotia, stocked their cages and later built a hatchery. It

hasn't previously been done at the same time.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

Thank

you.

We'll

probably have further questions under Environment when we talk to Environment.

MR. CROCKER:

Yes.

MS. MICHAEL:

2.3.02 will I go on and

finish that one?

CHAIR:

Yes, 2.3.01 and 2.3.02.

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes.

Okay,

2.3.02; well, basically, this is Loans, Advances and Investments.

MR. CROCKER:

Right.

MS. MICHAEL:

The amount is down from what

was budgeted last year. Can I have an explanation, please?

MR. CROCKER:

Yes, that variance was due to

a delay in Northern Harvest's project that we're funding under the Aquaculture

Capital Equity Program.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right.

MR. CROCKER:

We only distributed $2.5

million of last year's commitment.

MS. MICHAEL:

So the $2.8 million, that's

also still Northern Harvest?

MR. CROCKER:

Yes, the $2.8 million, again,

is the investment in Northern Harvest's operation. Yes.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

Thank

you very much.

Could we

have an update on what Northern Harvest is doing, what it's using this for?

MR. CROCKER:

The province's current

investment with Northern Harvest is automated feeding systems for their Bay

d'Espoir operations.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right.

MR. CROCKER:

That's this investment.

Northern

Harvest has also announced a recent $6 million investment in the expansion of

the Stephenville hatchery. That is not covered in here, but where Northern

Harvest is investing right now is the investment of $6 million in the

Stephenville hatchery. They're also investing in the automated feeding systems.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right.

Minister, now government has announced that it's going to fund Grieg up to $45

million. That's certainly not under this. Where would that show up if that's

going to happen, or is that not a clear decision yet?

MR. CROCKER:

At this point in time we

haven't announced a commitment to Grieg. That's still a negotiation that we're

continuing to do our due diligence on.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

Thank

you very much.

That's

all I have.

CHAIR:

Mr. Petten or Mr. Parsons,

anything on 2.3.01 and 2.3.02?

MR. K. PARSONS:

I have a couple of questions

just on the aquaculture itself.

In the

budget documents you said there was $5 million available on the wild fishery and

aquaculture investments, but I don't see this anywhere in the Estimates under

MR. CROCKER:

The $5 million number that

was combined in the budget releases would be the $3 million that we budgeted for

back in the Fisheries Innovation Fund and the $2 million for the Seafood

Transition Fund. Because I believe the wording of that is we had $5 million

available to leverage federal funding.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

The

leverage that you're talking about; is that from the private sector funding or

is it from that one?

MR. CROCKER:

No, any private sector

investment in here would be above what we've budgeted. Just as an example, the

$2 million Seafood Transition Program last year actually resulted in $3.7

million in expenditures.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

CHAIR:

Subheads 2.3.01 and 2.3.02.

Shall

they carry?

All

those in favour?

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

Those against?

Carried.

motion, subheads 2.3.01 and 2.3.02 carried.

CHAIR:

We'll now be looking at

subheads 2.4.01 and 2.5.01.

Mr.

Parsons.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Under licensing, again, the

Salaries. I'd like to know what the Salaries are for in here. Is there just one

person that's hired there? With the whole licence division it's $161,000, yet

we're paying a salary of

MR. CROCKER:

One hundred and fifty-six

thousand dollars.

MR. K. PARSONS:

One hundred and fifty-six

thousand dollars is what we're paying in the

MR. CROCKER:

Yeah, that would be two

positions.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Is it two positions?

MR. CROCKER:

Two positions.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

What are

their positions and what do they do?

MR. CROCKER:

Well, they would provide the

support of actually the licensing process for all of our aquaculture sites

around the province. Each individual site, when it comes to aquaculture, is a

separate licence. There's quite a bit of work around the licensing in the

aquaculture industry.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

If I

look at all of the Supplies, Purchased Services, and properties, they're a lot

higher this year than it was well, a lot lower, actually, than what it was

last year. Why the decrease?

MR. CROCKER:

That's a result of zero-based

budgeting.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay, move to

section 2.5.01,

if that's okay.

MR. CROCKER:

2.5.01 as well, yeah.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

MR. CROCKER:

Thank you.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Looking at Salaries, it seems

like the Salaries are up. Again, what are the positions? Is there a new position

added here?

MR. CROCKER:

There would be 10 positions

there, four of which would be our aquatic veterinarians.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Veterinarians, how many, 10?

MR. CROCKER:

Four; we have 10 positions,

four of which are aquatic veterinarians.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

Again

just to question the whole spending here on this department if you look at the

line for Employee Benefits right to the Property, there's a reduction in

spending except for on the properties there. Is there a reason for the

reduction?

MR. CROCKER:

Zero-based budgeting.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Zero-based budgeting. Can you

tell me what the Grants and Subsidy are going to be there?

MR. CROCKER:

The Atlantic Canadian

veterinarians college.

MR. K. PARSONS:

That's it that I have on this

section, but like I said before I started, I wanted to go to sections

MR. CROCKER:

Yeah.

MR. K. PARSONS:

So if you want to

CHAIR:

Ms. Michael, anything on

2.4.01 or 2.5.01?

MS. MICHAEL:

No, I'll pass (inaudible).

CHAIR:

Okay.

Shall

subheads 2.4.01 and 2.5.01 carry?

All

those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against, 'nay.'

Carried.

motion, subheads 2.4.01 and 2.5.01 carried.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Mr. Chair, I'd like to the

three sections that are related to Fisheries that are there at the end, if we

could go through those sections then I'd be clued up with my fisheries.

CHAIR:

Okay, so we're going to

MR. CROCKER:

Don't let him leave, Barry.

MR. PETTEN:

(Inaudible.)

MR. K. PARSONS:

I just thought that too.

CHAIR:

Mr. Parsons, do you want to

name out those sections you're

MR. K. PARSONS:

I'll stay here and support my

colleague.

CHAIR:

Do you want to name those

sections you were

MR. K. PARSONS:

Sections 5.1.02 and 5.1.03

and

section 5.2.01.

CHAIR:

5.1.02, 5.1.03 and 5.2.02?

MR. K. PARSONS:

No, 5.2.01.

Is that

okay with you, Lorraine?

CHAIR:

Ms. Michael, is that okay

with you?

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes, it is.

CHAIR:

So we're looking at sections

5.1.02, 5.1.03 and 5.2.01.

Okay,

Mr. Parsons.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay, I'd like to go to

5.1.02 first, I guess.

In this

section, Minister, if you could give me an explanation of the Salaries and the

positions also that these salaries would include.

MR. CROCKER:

The salary adjustments are

for JES in 2017-18 and the funding is for five positions.

MR. K. PARSONS:

What are those positions?

MR. CROCKER:

Those positions would be a

director and the director's support staff. This is our division that would

contribute to science meetings, for example. Tomorrow we have the Northern cod

assessment meeting for inputs. So this is the division that would review the

policy or the position, as an example tomorrow, that we will put forward on

allowable catch for cod and this division would have been involved in shrimp and

crab and all other species.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Can you explain to me the

Grants and Subsidies and the huge reduction from $1.9 million to ?

MR. CROCKER:

The $1.8 million reduction

would be the sun setting of the provincial involvement in CFER

MR. K. PARSONS:

Can you explain it a little

better; CFER?

MR. CROCKER:

The Centre for Fisheries

Ecosystems.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

So is

that money that where is this money going to come up to do further

MR. CROCKER:

So CFER back in, I guess the

summer of 2016, received substantial funding from the federal government. CFER

still exists but it's no longer funded by the province, it's funded by the

federal government; where the responsibility for fishery science does belong.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

Let's go

section 5.1.03. This is the Fish Plant Worker Employment Support Program.

Last year, we had budgeted $500,000 and this year $362,000 was actually spent, I

looks like, and $500,000 again this year. Where was that spent to?

MR. CROCKER:

This past year it was spent

in Burnt Islands. There was a plant deemed permanently closed in Burnt Islands,

so that's where the expenditure would have been this year.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay, will these Grants and

Subsidies be included for plants that are presently doing crab, shrimp and other

species?

MR. CROCKER:

It could be. The design of

this program is for a plant that gets a designation of permanent closed. This

year, I guess that opportunity would be available for a number of plants:

Clarenville and New Ferolle.

It is

just two right now?

OFFICIAL:

(Inaudible.)

MR. CROCKER:

There are just two right now

that would be deemed had the ability to be deemed permanently closed. So

that's the removal of the licence.

MR. K. PARSONS:

This is basically for plants

that are going to be deemed closed permanently.

MR. CROCKER:

Right.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay, interesting.

Under

Fish Plant Worker Employment Support Program is there somewhere else where

there's going to be money spent?

MR. CROCKER:

We do realize the challenges

that we face in the fishery this year, whether it's in shrimp or crab, that

there will be challenges and we've committed to and we've had preliminary

discussions with the federal government as well that if there are needs for

adjustment programs for plant workers in this province, we will certainly be

there to provide those adjustments.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay, interesting

5.2.01,

again I'm just wondering in Salaries.

MR. CROCKER:

5.2.01?

MR. K. PARSONS:

I'm sorry, yes, 5.2.01.

MR. CROCKER:

So that's outside of

Fisheries. Now we're gone into

MR. K. PARSONS:

I'm sorry, what did I say it

was?

MR. CROCKER:

5.2.01 is Compliance and

Enforcement.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Yes, it says provincial

fisheries and aquaculture legislation.

MR. CROCKER:

That would be inland

OFFICIAL:

(Inaudible.)

MR. CROCKER:

Yeah, okay, go ahead, sorry.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

MR. CROCKER:

You can have that one.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Apologize.

MR. CROCKER:

I'll send you a little

apology note later on.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Thank you.

Okay,

can you explain the Salaries, and I'd like to know the positions also in these.

MR. CROCKER:

The funding here is for 12

positions and a provision for overtime. It falls under the director of

compliance and enforcement. There's a regional compliance manager Avalon,

director of enforcement and director of compliance and salary adjustments

required for 2017, as per the JES adjustments.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Under Transportation and

Communications, there's a fair amount of reduction there. Can you explain that?

MR. CROCKER:

Zero-based budgeting.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Zero-based budgeting, okay.

And the

same as the other ones there: Supplies, Professional Services and ?

MR. CROCKER:

That's correct.

MR. K. PARSONS:

The same. Okay.

What

Purchased Services are going to be increased from last year, that you budgeted

last year for this year? Last year you budgeted

MR. CROCKER:

That variance was due to

higher than anticipated costs of lease space.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

I have

some general questions that I'd like to ask, just one in particular. You stated

there are 25 crab plants, is that correct?

MR. CROCKER:

Yes, there were 24 last year,

25 this year.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay, and there's eight

MR. CROCKER:

Shrimp plants.

MR. K. PARSONS:

shrimp plants. Okay, I just

wanted to know that.

Also,

under the advisory council, you mentioned a little while ago, $100,000 was

allocated last year?

MR. CROCKER:

Yes.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Was any of that money spent?

MR. CROCKER:

No, it wasn't.

MR. K. PARSONS:

None spent?

MR. CROCKER:

No.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

And you

also said the advisory council will be up soon?

MR. CROCKER:

Yes.

MR. K. PARSONS:

And there's no money to date

been spent on the advisory council at all?

MR. CROCKER:

So the chair would possibly

have the ability to claim, but we haven't received a claim from the chair yet.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

I have

one other question for you. The Seafood Innovation Transition Program that was

announced in the budget, $2 million.

MR. CROCKER:

Yes.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Can you explain that?

MR. CROCKER:

Yes, that's the program we

introduced last year. It was funding for harvesters and processors. It's the one

I to Ms. Michael's questions earlier. It's the 80/20, the split for harvesters

under 40. Typically a 60/40 split for harvesters over 40, 40 to 65 and a 50/50

contribution rate for processors. So last year we would have helped out and

contributed to hook and line; electronic jigger; slush and slurry system;

onboard handling, whether it's simple as boxing systems and boxing equipment.

On the

processing side, we would have invested in modernization of filleting equipment,

some other projects. We did a cod quality improvement project along with the

Marine Institute and Quin-Sea, that was done in Conche, to test our abilities to

getting fresh round cod to market, and ways of making sure how product was

packaged to actually get it to market in a way that we could get a grade A

price.

MR. K. PARSONS:

And all that money was spent

last year?

MR. CROCKER:

Yes.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay, all right.

MR. CROCKER:

There was $6.7 million in

requests.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Six point seven okay.

CHAIR:

Thank you, Mr. Parsons.

Ms.

Michael. We're on 5.1.02, and 5.1.03 and 5.2.01.

MS. MICHAEL:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Yes, I

think all of the questions I have had been asked and answered, but I just want a

fuller clarification with regard to the $1.8 million with regard to CFER. I

understand the federal government now is taking it over. So that will include

the Celtic Explorer . It will still be

operating, will it, as part of CFER?

MR. CROCKER:

No, the federal government, I

think I'm not exactly sure, I know they did look at the possibility of leasing

the Celtic Explorer or using some of

their own equipment.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay, so we're not sure what

MR. CROCKER:

I'm not sure what their plan

is.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right. Okay, but CFER is in

charge of that.

MS. WISEMAN:

They haven't leased the Celtic Explorer this year because they have a lot of work to do with

just analyzing data.

MS. MICHAEL:

I didn't hear everything you

said, Ms. Wiseman. Could you just the microphone wasn't on.

MS. WISEMAN:

Sure. What I said was that they didn't lease the

Celtic Explorer this year because they

still have a lot of data they're analyzing.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

MS. WISEMAN:

But they do have I'm not sure what their future plans are.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay. Thank you very much.

That's

fine, Mr. Chair.

MR. CROCKER:

(Inaudible) the result is the

federal government, through the federal procurement, actually have a vessel

under construction for acoustics that will be located on the Atlantic coast.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

Thank

you.

CHAIR:

Mr. Parsons.

MR. K. PARSONS:

(Inaudible) was that used

last year at any and where was it used and what did it do?

MR. CROCKER:

Last year it was used. It was

used in 3Ps.

MR. K. PARSONS:

To do cod or ?

MR. CROCKER:

To do a groundfish survey in

3Ps last year. I guess one of the successes from last year was a realization of

the abundance of redfish in 3Ps and halibut on the South Coast.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

CHAIR:

5.1.02, 5.1.03 and 5.2.01,

shall the subheads carry?

All

those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against, 'nay.'

Carried.

motion, subheads 5.1.02, 5.1.03 and 5.2.01 carried.

CHAIR:

3.1.01 to 3.1.03.

Mr.

Petten.

MR. PETTEN:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Under

Salaries in 3.1.01, how many positions are included in this large figure?

MR. CROCKER:

Yes, there are 65 positions.

There's an allowance for overtime of $32,000 and there's an allowance for other

earnings at $8,500.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay. So there was some

elimination of positions from last year to this year?

MR. CROCKER:

There was reorganization. So

contained in this number now is a director of ecosystems, sustainability and

research; ecosystems ecologist III; contractual III; disease inspectors;

supervisor of forest fire management. These are positions that already exist;

the creation of supervisor of disease and fire control, and there's some

adjustment here for JES as well.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay.

You'll

provide us with a list of what positions have been no longer within all

divisions anyway, right?

MR. CROCKER:

Yes, we're going to, yes.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay.

Transportation and Communications, why such a big variance?

MR. CROCKER:

One of the things the new

department allows us to do is around helicopter time. As an example, previously,

before the department was combined, we would have had forestry using helicopter

time, Crown Lands using helicopter time, wildlife using helicopter time, and all

going up the Northern Peninsula, as an example.

Now

we're going to be able to reduce our helicopter time by utilizing the

information gathered for the entire department versus working in silos.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay.

I guess

the same question applies under Purchased Services. Would that be connected,

$429,000 budgeted last year; it went down to $268,000.

MR. CROCKER:

Yes, that's vehicle repairs

and maintenance.

MR. PETTEN:

Vehicle repairs and

maintenance. So there are less vehicles?

MR. CROCKER:

With the size of the vehicle

fleet now we're able to retire, again, some of the older, more antiquated

vehicles.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay.

3.1.02

how do you do subsections, Mr. Chair?

CHAIR:

Yes, we're doing 3.1.01 to

3.1.03.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay.

Grants

and Subsidies, under 3.1.01, what's included here?

MR. CROCKER:

Okay.

Canadian

Council of Forest Ministers, Canadian Institute of Forestry, FPInnovations,

Newfoundland and Labrador, Lumber Producers' Association, Labrador Innu, Metis

Forest Management Agreements and forestry research grants.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay.

3.1.02,

I guess the first question is Salaries, obviously. Why the drop? I guess there

were positions eliminated there as well.

MR. CROCKER:

Okay. So there was the

elimination of two regional compliance managers, the manager of administration,

the director of ecosystems management, regional ecosystem director, ecosystem

planner, but there was a creation of a district ecosystems manager. The salaries

in this division would include funding for 130 positions, an allowance of

$205,000 for overtime and $750,000 for other earnings.

MR. PETTEN:

Under those subheadings

Transportation, Supplies, Professional Services well, not so much Professional

Services but Purchased Services, there's a fluctuation there. I probably know

the answer to some of this now. Transportation and communications, is that less

this year because there are less vehicles?

MR. CROCKER:

Yeah, and it's based on

zero-based budgeting.

MR. PETTEN:

Right. Okay, that was the

other part.

What

about Supplies, is that a result of zero-based budgeting as well? That's a

fairly substantial drop from last year's budget.

MR. CROCKER:

There was a variance in

Supplies last year again of less fuel and less travel. We anticipate, with the

alignment of the new department, that we will achieve further savings.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay.

Under

Purchased Services, for this division, what would be your purchased services, I

guess, is the question.

MR. CROCKER:

That would include helicopter

time, maintenance, forestry road maintenance and other repairs to forestry

roads.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay.

Under

Property, Furnishings and Equipment you have $60,000 budgeted last year, you

only used $28,000 and this year it's down to $22,000.

MR. CROCKER:

Yes, variances due to less

than anticipated expenditures as reduced discretionary spending was utilized to

offset higher than anticipated expenditures in other areas.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay.

Those

two sections (inaudible).

CHAIR:

Ms. Michael, 3.1.01 to

3.1.03.

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes, 3.1.01, under

Professional Services, there is a major drop there, both from what was budgeted

last year well the big thing is what was budgeted, so it's a $200,000

difference. What was included before that isn't included now I guess that's the

question.

MR. CROCKER:

There was some duplication of

services with Crown Lands and less use of vehicles.

MS. MICHAEL:

I missed the first part. It's

my own fault; I didn't have the bud in my ear. Could you say it again, please?

MR. CROCKER:

The variance is due to

anticipated vehicle repairs due to less travel, and no purchase of digital

photography this year due to a backlog in work, and anticipation to begin

capturing photos in the next fiscal year.

MS. MICHAEL:

Would the digital photography

have been one of the bigger items there?

MR. CROCKER:

One of the bigger

expenditures.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right.

MR. CROCKER:

One of the advantages with

the Crown Lands amalgamation is we can now share that service as well with Crown

Lands.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right, thank you.

I think

that's all, Mr. Chair; my other questions were asked.

CHAIR:

Thank you, Ms. Michael.

Mr.

Petten wanted to go back on 3.1.03.

MR. PETTEN:

Under 3.1.03, I just have a

couple of quick ones, actually. Purchased Services, why a million dollars less

this year?

MR. CROCKER:

That's the rightsizing of the

silviculture division to reflect the size of the current industry, and as well

the Wooddale Provincial Tree Nursery is now going to become not only a forestry

asset. The tree nursery in Wooddale is now going to become a centre for

agriculture and forestry development.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay.

Property, Furnishings, is that what you consider a rightsizing of the budget,

from $125,000 down to $70,000?

MR. CROCKER:

Yes.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay.

Under

your Supplies there is $238,000 less than under the revised amount, down to

$313,000.

MR. CROCKER:

The revised was $551,000, is

that the line?

MR. PETTEN:

No, Supplies line yes,

$551,000 in revised.

MR. CROCKER:

Yes, so that was bridges and

culverts, and the increase would have been due to the Thanksgiving day

rainstorm. We had severe damage to forestry roads.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay, that's it.

CHAIR:

So we're looking at 3.1

MS. MICHAEL:

(Inaudible.)

CHAIR:

Absolutely, Ms. Michael, go

ahead.

MS. MICHAEL:

Minister, just interested in

the status of silviculture and the money that we spend on it. Are we still

proceeding in the same way as we have been, or has there been a reduction?

MR. CROCKER:

Well, there has unfortunately

been a reduction over the years as we went from three paper mills to one. The

Wooddale tree nursery at one point in time would have produced about 16 million

seedlings a year. Right now, it's producing somewhere about seven to eight

million seedlings a year. That's one of the reasons that we're going to, this

year, repurpose that asset to look at more development of the agriculture

industry.

We have

38 greenhouses at Wooddale able to produce 16,000 seedlings, and we see a

tremendous opportunity with that facility to help advance our agriculture

centre.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay, thank you very much.

That's

all.

CHAIR:

Shall subhead 3.1.01 to

3.1.03 inclusive carry?

All

those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against, 'nay.'

Carried.

motion, subheads 3.1.01 through 3.1.03 carried.

CHAIR:

Subhead 3.2.01 and 3.2.02.

Ms.

Michael, if you'd like to start.

MS. MICHAEL:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Once

again, Salaries is the first big question here, Mr. Minister. If you could give

us the breakdown here; there's quite a variance.

MR. CROCKER:

Yes, it's lower than

anticipated salary costs associated with Insect Control Program delivered during

the year, and the adjustment in the salary of 402 includes zero-based budgeting

and a JES adjustment. And in that division, we're funding 19 positions, with an

overtime allowance of $50,000.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay. It's still quite a drop

from what was budgeted last year. It's $300,000.

MR. BALSOM:

Yes, this reflects a monitoring program and the large budget was budgeted in

anticipation of a control program, which we did not require. We will be

budgeting now on a monitoring budget basis, knowing that there is no operational

program for 2017 either. I guess we're lucky in that respect with the Insect

Control Program. And going forward, we will be looking at the Control Program on

a contingency basis, if one is required.

MR. CROCKER:

So what happens is we do a

fall egg/larvae survey. So what we find in the fall will determine the budget

required for the fiscal year in the survey.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay, great. Thank you very

much.

Under

Transportation and Communications, last year it's not a big difference, but

$77,000 less spent than budgeted.

MR. CROCKER:

I guess that would be a

benefit of good fortune in the pest area. The variance is due to changes in the

monitoring and pest population results.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right.

Thank

you.

Under

Purchased Services, the budget was $111,000. The revision was up quite a bit. It

was $514,000 $408,000 more than budgeted.

MR. CROCKER:

Right. Just a moment ago I

talked about the fall egg survey. We have an expenditure associated with a new

provincial insect and disease control laboratory.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay. Thank you.

Under

3.2.02, I'm just curious about what was it that got purchased last year that

wasn't anticipated under Property, Furnishings and Equipment?

MR. CROCKER:

That's the $204,000 number?

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes, that's correct.

MR. CROCKER:

Due to a purchase of woodland

fire pumps. It was necessary to replace the units in inventory which were no

longer operational. In addition to the woodland fire pumps, an automatic weather

station was a required purchase for the provincial network of weather stations.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

Will I

go on, Mr. Chair? I just finished 3.2. You don't want me to go on to 3.3?

CHAIR:

No, we'll go back to Mr.

Petten.

Thank

you, Ms. Michael.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay. That's what I thought.

CHAIR:

Mr. Petten, 3.2.01 and

3.2.02.

MR. PETTEN:

Yes, I just have a couple of

questions there.

I had a

couple of questions to ask.

CHAIR:

Go ahead.

MR. PETTEN:

Just to be clear I know Ms.

Michael just asked that question, but I wanted to just confirm under 3.2.01,

there's $300,000 less in Salaries as we see here, correct? Did you say 19

positions were cut from that?

MR. CROCKER:

No, there are 19 positions in

place.

MR. PETTEN:

In place.

MR. CROCKER:

That money supports 19

positions.

MR. PETTEN:

Right. How many positions

were eliminated, do you know? There obviously was a fair

MR. CROCKER:

It's not eliminated; it's

done on the basis on the survey in the fall if the positions will be required,

depending on the eggs, the larvae that are found in the survey. We would have to

ramp up. If we found that there was an issue, God help us, with the spruce

budworm, there's allowance to ramp up, if need be, but we didn't find that in

last fall's survey.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay.

So you

adjust the Salaries

MR. CROCKER:

It reflects what's found in

the fall survey.

MR. PETTEN:

Got you.

Under

the same subheading 3.2.01, the Grants and Subsidies, I know it's only $6,000.

What is it? What's included?

MR. CROCKER:

Spray Efficiency Research

Group.

MR. PETTEN:

Perfect.

What

about under Fire Suppression and Communications? What are the Grants and

Subsidies there? What's that?

MR. CROCKER:

That's at 3.2.02?

MR. PETTEN:

3.2.02, yes, the Grants and

Subsidies line.

MR. CROCKER:

Okay.

Canadian

Interagency Forest Fire Centre, the Partners in Protection and Northeast Forest

Fire Protection Commission.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay.

CHAIR:

3.2.01 and 3.2.02.

Shall

the subheads carry?

All

those in favour?

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

Those against?

Carried.

motion subheads 3.2.01 and 3.2.02 carried.

CHAIR:

Next we'll go to 3.3.01 to

3.3.06 inclusive.

Mr.

Petten.

MR. PETTEN:

Thank you.

Under

3.3.01 you have Salaries there now and there's a decrease. How many positions

are included in this $489,000?

MR. CROCKER:

Eight.

MR. PETTEN:

Eight positions?

MR. CROCKER:

Eight positions.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay.

Has

there been any elimination? It doesn't appear to have if I look at the numbers.

MR. CROCKER:

No, no movement. There are

some JES adjustments but

MR. PETTEN:

Right.

Why such

a spike in Transportation and Communications last year and now it's gone back

again this year? It went up by $130,000, now it's back down to

MR. CROCKER:

The variance is due to a

delay in mail out of black bear applications. The 2015-'16 postage billing would

have been not submitted in time to meet the March 31 deadline in that fiscal

year. So we ended up sort of a double count in last fiscal year.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay.

Under

3.3.02, Endangered Species and Biodiversity, Salaries are $90,000 less. Was that

an elimination of a position?

MR. CROCKER:

There was an elimination of a

senior management wildlife officer.

MR. PETTEN:

Did you say management?

MR. CROCKER:

Yes and there is some salary

adjustment required for JES as well.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay.

Thank

you.

One

other question well, two: Supplies and Purchased Services, I notice Supplies

has dropped down only $7,000 from an original budget of $20,000 last year and

Purchased Services has gone in reverse.

MR. CROCKER:

The variance is due to

less-than-anticipated supply expenditures during the year. Then, this year's

would reflect zero-based budgeting.

MR. PETTEN:

So this year Purchased

Services, zero-based budgeting, or Supplies, or both?

MR. CROCKER:

Right. The full the operating

budget doesn't really change. Some of the money is just moved around to reflect

the priorities. As you can see, I think Purchased Services was increased from

$7,000 to $17,000.

MR. PETTEN:

Yes.

MR. CROCKER:

It's sort of a reversal there

of Supplies and Purchased Services.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay.

3.3.03,

Stewardship and Education; under Salaries on this one here there's a decrease of

$157,000 from last year.

MR. CROCKER:

Yes, there was attrition

management reduction resulting in $72,000 and through the reorganization there

was the elimination of a wildlife biologist.

MR. PETTEN:

Did you say wildlife

biologist?

MR. CROCKER:

Yes, which was a management

position.

MR. PETTEN:

I have a question for you

now; it's not in these lines, but of interest. How many wildlife biologists are

within the Wildlife Division?

MR. CROCKER:

We'd have to get the chart

because we also have biologists now with the consolidation of the department. We

have forestry biologists now that will be doing some of that work as well, but

that will be reflected in the chart we can provide you.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay.

Another

question: I'm curious how many people are in the Wildlife Division, but I guess

that might

MR. CROCKER:

There are approximately 40.

MR. PETTEN:

Forty? Okay.

Under

Purchased Services under 3.3.03, there's a $35,000 drop this year. Well,

obviously it was an increase from last year, I guess, really in the revised.

What was that revised back in?

MR. CROCKER:

The variance was due to a SNP

animal care evaluation expenditure.

MR. PETTEN:

Under 3.3.

MR. CROCKER:

Oh, by the way, that's

Salmonier Nature Park.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay.

Under

3.3.04, Habitat, Game and Fur Management: How many positions were eliminated

here under Salaries?

MR. CROCKER:

There was an attrition

management reduction partially offset by salary adjustments required for 2017-18

adjustment, and there was a senior wildlife biologist.

MR. PETTEN:

There was one position

eliminated and one through attrition, you're saying?

MR. CROCKER:

Yes.

MR. PETTEN:

So it was a vacant position

basically not filled and there was a wildlife biologist eliminated.

MR. CROCKER:

Elimination, yes.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay.

Transportation and Communications: Why such a drop?

MR. CROCKER:

The variation was due to

additional classification survey work was required by Habitat, Game and Fur

needed in order to maintain scientific rigour to our evaluations of roadside

moose hunting zones. It can be reducing MV, moose vehicle collisions. So that

piece of work is now completed.

MR. PETTEN:

Yeah, with the work

completed, you no longer needs that money budgeted. Is that correct?

MR. CROCKER:

Yes.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay.

Under

3.3.05, Research, a fairly significant drop in Salaries there as well, over

$300,000 less. How many positions would be ?

MR. CROCKER:

The reduction in Salaries

reflect the removal of funding for one position, partially offset by salary

adjustments required for '17-'18. Under the reorganization there was a senior

wildlife biologist that had been vacant. There were three, one of which was

vacant but there was also the creation of director of research and a manager of

research.

MR. PETTEN:

So there were three positions

eliminated.

MR. CROCKER:

And two created.

MR. PETTEN:

You still have $300,000 less.

MR. CROCKER:

There were four, sorry. There

was one position that was there, it was held vacant. The person has been in

Alaska for a number of years.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay.

So there

was the elimination of four.

MR. CROCKER:

Four, with the creation of

two.

MR. PETTEN:

Under Transportation and

Communications, I know it's pretty well on par with last year's budget but the

revised amount was a lot less.

MR. CROCKER:

Yeah, the variance is due to

the deferring survey of moose management areas eight and 27 to the 2017-18 year.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay.

Mr.

Chair, is that where

CHAIR:

3.3.01 to 3.3.06.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay.

Under

3.3.06, Cooperative Wildlife Projects, I see it looks like a flatline budget

item but there was $70,200 last year, there's nothing in the revised to the same

figure now. What is that? What does that include?

MR. CROCKER:

It's one position.

MR. PETTEN:

Just one position.

Okay.

That's all good on this section.

CHAIR:

Ms. Michael, 3.3.01 to 3.3.06

inclusive.

MS. MICHAEL:

Thank you.

3.3.02,

it's basically a general question with regard to the Species Status Advisory

Committee. Can we have some details on that committee? How often do they meet?

MR. CROCKER:

That might be one where we

can get you the details on.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay, that would be fine.

Just to

say, Mr. Chair, I'm assuming as always, whenever either party makes a request we

all get the information.

MR. CROCKER:

Certainly, yeah.

MS. MICHAEL:

Thank you.

3.3.04,

again a general thing: Could we have some updates on the moose management plan?

MR. CROCKER:

Right now, the survey I guess

maybe I'll turn this one over to you Steve, to talk about the moose management

plan and the areas that we've done recently.

MR. BALSOM:

Ms. Michael, I think it would

be best for me to get you some information on that because, again, it's a new

field for myself and I'm getting more of an understanding of all the work that

we're doing this year. I'd like to supply you with that, if that's okay.

MS. MICHAEL:

That would be fine.

Thank

you very much.

MR. CROCKER:

If you look at the overall

talk about the health of the moose population in the province. The moose

population in the province is still strong at over 100,000 animals. There are

some changes district by district, and the information we can get you will

provide you a better idea of, sort of the shift that you may see one area

that's going down but another area that's remained strong.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right, because the population

information and all of that would be part of that. So that would be fine. Okay.

Thank

you very much.

MR. CROCKER:

The Member for Cape St.

Francis wants to know where to apply.

MS. MICHAEL:

I'm finished, yes.

Thank

you.

CHAIR:

3.3.01 to 3.3.06.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Can I ask a question. The

reduction in Salaries, I'm just wondering about

MR. CROCKER:

Sorry, what number?

MR. K. PARSONS:

section 3.3.05, Research.

MR. CROCKER:

Yeah, okay.

MR. K. PARSONS:

I'm just wondering, is that

related to wildlife officers, the Salaries there?

MR. CROCKER:

No.

MR. K. PARSONS:

No. Okay.

Who's

included in the research group?

MR. CROCKER:

This

section of the

department would be the

section that came from the Department of Environment.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Of what?

MR. CROCKER:

This is the

section that

would have come from the Department of Environment.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

MR. PETTEN:

Wildlife officers, which

division would they fall under?

MR. CROCKER:

Right now, I guess there

would be two categories. There would be the compliance officers and there would

be the Fish and Wildlife Division.

MR. PETTEN:

Right.

MR. CROCKER:

So that would all now fall

under Enforcement, yes.

What was

that? Sorry, Keith.

MR. DEERING:

5.2.02.

MR. CROCKER:

5.2.02, Mr. Petten.

MR. PETTEN:

Right.

How many

less wildlife officers do we have now?

MR. CROCKER:

There has been no change.

MR. PETTEN:

No change?

MR. CROCKER:

No change.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay.

I'm

good.

CHAIR:

3.3.01 to 3.3.06.

Shall

the subheads carry?

All

those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

Against?

Carried.

motion, subheads 3.3.01 through 3.3.06 carried.

CHAIR:

4.1.01 to 4.1.03.

Mr.

Petten.

MR. PETTEN:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I guess

I'm going to ask a general question before I get to the line by line, because I

couldn't find this. Natural areas, what is the budget for natural areas?

MR. CROCKER:

The budget for natural areas

is $985,500.

MR. PETTEN:

Where do I find that? I'm not

seeing it.

MR. CROCKER:

It's in the the budget

would range from everywhere from Salaries right on down through the lines.

MR. PETTEN:

So it's combined with the

rest of

MR. CROCKER:

Yes, well, so it's employees,

Professional Services, Purchased Services.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay.

So when

I look at Salaries, the broad question is that's salaries from natural areas,

from Crown Lands administration?

MR. CROCKER:

No, that would be land

stewardship. That wouldn't include Crown Lands.

MR. PETTEN:

Right, so we got I guess

I'm going to get to the question I'm trying to figure out. So natural areas is

operating under the same administrative area as Crown Lands? Natural areas

they're all in the one umbrella?

MR. DEERING:

So you're correct, there are a number of things that are embedded in this budget

and one thing that is not. Crown Lands administration is actually 4.6.02, but

natural areas is blended in with the former Land Resource Stewardship budget. So

those numbers that you see here does include natural areas.

MR. PETTEN:

It does include natural

areas?

MR. DEERING: It

does, correct.

MR. CROCKER:

So in this budget you'll find $466,800 for Mistaken Point.

MR. PETTEN:

$466,000 how did you guess

it was about Mistaken Point?

MR. CROCKER:

Because.

MR. PETTEN:

I never imagined you'd guess

that.

So I'm

totally clear, it is combined with Crown Lands? That's what I'm a bit confused

about here.

OFFICIAL:

This is where he's running into trouble.

MR. PETTEN:

Yes, I'm not totally clear on

that.

MR. CROCKER:

Yeah, it might be

(inaudible).

MR. PETTEN:

It's written there, right. I

mean it's Crown Lands administration, natural areas, land management programs.

MR. DEERING:

So, yes, I think, Mr. Petten, in next year's Estimates book you'll probably find

that this area would be blended again with 4.6.02. But if you go to 4.6.02, this

references where all the Crown Lands administration piece actually sits right

now. At this point, the numbers that you see, even though Crown Lands

administration is in the description, natural areas is the only new addition to

the former Land Resource Stewardship budget.

MR. PETTEN:

That's my question, where I'm

confused, why is Crown Lands administration still in this if it should be over

in 4.6.01.

OFFICIAL:

It's just an error.

MR. CROCKER:

It's an error in the

presentation. Is that fair, Phil?

MR. IVIMEY:

Yeah.

MR. CROCKER:

Yeah, it's

MR. PETTEN:

I'm confused. It's confusing

me. I don't know if anyone else here, maybe I'm the only one, but I'm totally

confused.

MS. COMPANION:

The Crown Lands

administration that's in the description here at the top part with the Land

Resource Stewardship should probably not be there for the Crown Lands

administration.

The only

thing that's here is the Land Resource Stewardship and the natural areas and all

the Crown Lands that's in the numbers that Keith had identified.

MR. PETTEN:

Because you have a land

management programs there too, right? Land management falls under Crown Lands

too.

MR. DEERING:

If I could just make one

clarification.

The

director responsible for the Land Resource Stewardship division is also

responsible for 4.6.02. Even though the description for the work that he's

responsible for includes Crown Lands administration, the Crown Lands

administration piece is actually covered in 4.6.02.

All of

this work comes under the umbrella of this particular division now; however, the

numbers for Crown Lands administration are still in 4.6.02.

MR. PETTEN:

Natural areas basically

doesn't have its own line, it's just part of the bigger administrative piece

within lands, land resource.

MR. CROCKER:

That wouldn't be the

conclusion I would draw. It's under 4.1.01 in Land Resource Stewardship.

MR. PETTEN:

Yes, I'm still probably

fairly confused. Just as well to be honest, isn't it.

So you

say it's $466,800 for Mistaken Point?

MR. CROCKER:

Yes.

MR. PETTEN:

But where would I find if I

were to look there now to find out what the budget is for natural areas, because

we have more natural areas than Mistaken Point.

MR. CROCKER:

The deputy minister just

suggested, if you wish, we could certainly give you a technical briefing on how

this is structured.

MR. PETTEN:

Yeah, that probably would be

helpful because that is fairly confusing, I have to say.

MR. CROCKER:

Right, so just to identify

the funding again. The headquarters is $399,000, Cape St. Mary's is $119,000 and

Mistaken Point is $466,000.

MR. PETTEN:

Yeah, some kind of briefing

on that would be helpful because it's very confusing.

MR. CROCKER:

Yes, no problem.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay.

MR. CROCKER:

Probably, if you wish, we

could offer a briefing on the structure of the entire department. We talked

earlier about the structure of the reporting mechanism and stuff.

MR. PETTEN:

Sure.

Mr.

Chair, which sections are we going

MR. CROCKER:

We're doing 4.1.01 to 4.1.03

inclusive.

MR. PETTEN:

To 03?

MR. CROCKER:

Yes.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay. I'll go to 4.1.03 and

hope I don't as confused as I just was that time.

MR. CROCKER:

03?

MR. PETTEN:

Yeah, I want to ask a

question regarding Operating Accounts, what is included in those categories?

MR. CROCKER:

Keith, if you could take that?

MR. PETTEN: So

there are three of them basically.

MR. DEERING:

This whole line item is our Land Consolidation Program. This program is a

program where we buy privately owned agriculture land and lease it back to

farmers in the form of agricultural leases. Some of this land could be currently

unused for farming activities or currently used and being rented.

A large focus of this program has been on the Avalon

Peninsula where agricultural land is getting harder to come by. We've had a very

successful track record over the last 10 or 15 years since we've had this

program in putting more privately owned land back into agriculture production.

So the first area, Professional Services, is a provision

that we have for legal fees. We have a privately attainted lawyer who does

all of the real estate transactions for us. The big part of this budget, of

course, is the Property, Furnishings and Equipment, which basically is the fund

that we have for actually purchasing the land itself.

This

past year, we would have had approximately five real estate deals that we would

have concluded; most of which would have been on the Avalon Peninsula. That's

essentially what we will get for that sort of acreage.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay. I am good, Mr. Chair.

Thank

you.

CHAIR:

Ms. Michael, 4.1.01 to 4.1.03

inclusive.

MS. MICHAEL:

Thank you.

I'll

just start with the last one first since we were just hearing about that. I did

have a question about whether or not the legal work was being brought in-house,

and you've just told me that it has. Where would that show in terms of a line

item, under Professional Services? There's no difference basically in the

Professional Services line under 4.1.03.

MR. DEERING:

Yes, that is correct. The

Professional Services piece is the line item for our legal consultant.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay, so really the cost

remains the same?

MR. DEERING:

Yes.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay, thank you very much.

I'd like

to go back to the Natural Areas question, Mr. Minister, but not in the way that

we're dealing with it before. Number one, wondering because this is not part

of structure; it's more programmatic. The Wilderness and Ecological Reserves

program, does that still exist within the work of Natural Areas?

MR. CROCKER:

Yes.

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes, it is. Okay.

understand that we're expecting a Natural Areas System Plan and we were told

that it was going to be finalized where do things stand with that plan?

MR. CROCKER:

We are working on finalizing

of the plan. We know it has taken 20 years, but we are working on finalizing

that plan. I'm hoping to be the person who finalizes after 20 years.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay, that would be very good

to see.

How long

do you expect to be in your position so I'll know

MR. CROCKER:

Well, it's been ongoing for

20 years, so

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

Regarding the Wilderness and Ecological Reserves Advisory committee, do they

meet regularly? Is that an active ?

MR. CROCKER:

They are actually. I had the

opportunity just recently to sit down with the committee. The committee right

now is going through, I guess, a repopulation. The committee has some

opportunities that are being advertised through the IAC, but we're confident

that we're going to be able to maintain a sufficient number of the current

members to make for a good transition to the newer members.

There is

certainly a strong interest from the current members, from many of them, to

remain a part of that committee. So they do meet regularly and their role is to

advise the minister, and it's certainly a role that we will respect and take

their advice.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right.

I guess,

Minister, if we went online we'd be able to find the makeup of all these various

advisory committees?

MR. CROCKER:

You would, actually. If you

wanted to go online to see the vacant positions that this department or any

department have, they're on the government webpage.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right, thank you very much.

You may

have answered this earlier and I may have missed it, but were there any

positions eliminated in the Natural Areas section?

MR. CROCKER:

No. There were some GIS and

salary adjustments, but there were no positions eliminated. There were actually

positions added, because we're in the process of adding three new positions at

Mistaken Point.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay, great. Thank you very

much.

I have

no more questions on those three.

CHAIR:

4.1.01 to 4.1.03 inclusive.

Shall

the subheads carry?

All

those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye,

CHAIR:

All those against, 'nay.'

Carried.

motion, subheads 4.1.01 through 4.1.03 carried.

CHAIR:

4.2.01 and 4.2.02 inclusive.

Ms.

Michael.

MS. MICHAEL:

Thank you very much.

4.2.01 my main question, I think, is under the Grants and Subsidies. There is a

huge drop in the Grants and Subsidies that's 4.2.01, 10, Grants and

Subsidies of about $750,000. If we could have an explanation.

MR. CROCKER:

Yes, please, Keith.

MR. DEERING: So

this, I guess it does look like a drop in the budget, but it was actually a

forecasted drop. This represents the well, actually this is our second-last

year of our Cranberry Industry Development Program.

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes.

MR. DEERING:

Which was a five-year program.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right.

MR. DEERING:

When we started the program it started out slow, we had a couple of big years,

and now it's starting to taper off into our last two years.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right.

MR. DEERING: So

this current fiscal year, the provincial portion of that was $500,000.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right, okay then. When I think about it, you did explain that last year, now

that I think about it.

Thank you very much.

MR. CROCKER:

(Inaudible.)

MS. MICHAEL:

Sorry, Minister?

MR. CROCKER: It

was the design of the program when the program was developed, it was designed

in that way.

MS. MICHAEL:

That's right, yes. Thank you very much.

4.2.02, under the Marketing Board,

we have a Review Board. Do they make regular reports to the minister?

MR. CROCKER:

They're activated when called

upon. So that the farm review board would be acted upon when they receive a

request to do a review, and that is reported to the minister.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right. Again, I think that's

information that would be available online too, wouldn't it?

MR. CROCKER:

I would think yes, so

MS. MICHAEL:

The applications that they

get.

MR. CROCKER:

if a proponent, whether it

be a farmer or a concerned citizen, would have an issue that they would ask for

a review

MS. MICHAEL:

Right.

MR. CROCKER:

that would be the role of

the Review Board.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right, thank you.

4.3.02.

CHAIR:

We're just doing 4.2

MS. MICHAEL:

Oh, I'm sorry, yes. Well,

they're all the questions I have for 4.2.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

Mr.

Petten, 4.2.01 to 4.2.02 inclusive?

MR. PETTEN:

Revenue under 4.2.01, it's

not a big amount, obviously, but what does that ?

MR. CROCKER:

So the variance is due to

lower than anticipated sale of seed potatoes.

MR. PETTEN:

Perfect.

And

under Professional Services, again, it's not big amounts, but it's a drop from

last year's budgeted amount, so

MR. CROCKER:

The variance is due to lower

than anticipated professional and technical requirements.

MR. PETTEN:

Lower than anticipated ?

MR. CROCKER:

Did you say Purchased

Services or Professional Services?

MR. PETTEN:

Professional Services.

MR. CROCKER:

Yes, due to lower than

anticipated professional and technical requirements.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay.

One

other question, under 4.2.02, the Marketing Board, under your Supplies it went

up again, it's not big money, but it's noticeable, I guess. It went up to

$10,000, back down to $2,000?

MR. CROCKER:

Yes, the variance is a result

of unexpected supply purchase required to address cost of production issues in

the supply management sector.

Keith

can elaborate on that.

MR. DEERING:

So one of the other functions, in addition to addressing complaints from the

public and working with farmers to resolve farm-community interface issues, the

Farm Industry Review Board also participates in our three supply-managed

commodity boards for dairy, chicken and eggs. From time to time, they'll be

asked for advice on things like cost of production issues for these three

sectors. From time to time, they will be required to spend money to engage

expertise to collect data and prepare reports.

MR. PETTEN:

Thank you.

I'm

good.

CHAIR:

Mr. Parsons?

MR. K. PARSONS:

I'm just interested in the

revenue there for seed potatoes. I was wondering, were the producers not

producing enough potatoes last year or was there a problem there? What was the

issue when it came to the amount of seed that was available?

MR. DEERING:

One of the issues we had this year, Mr. Parsons, is that one of our largest

potato producers and seed potato producers actually folded up and shut down.

That represents the reason why there were less sales in seed potatoes this year.

Obviously, it could be substantially more than this, and we hope it will be in a

few years, but unfortunately we had a significant sized potato producer actually

shut down.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

Local

products and local things are what we're all about. I know personally, myself,

if I see local potatoes or anyone, I go local. Maybe there's something we should

be doing to increase the number of productions, especially for potatoes,

something that we can really produce anywhere in the province. It's just

interesting to

MR. CROCKER:

(Inaudible) is that we

produce one in six potatoes that we eat, so that's a disappointing number.

MR. K. PARSONS:

I know, yes.

CHAIR:

4.2.01 and 4.2.02.

Shall

the subheads carry?

All

those in favour?

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

Those against?

Carried.

motion, subheads 4.2.01 and 4.2.02 carried.

CHAIR:

4.3.01 to 4.3.04 inclusive.

Mr.

Petten.

MR. PETTEN:

Thank you very much.

Under

4.3.01, under your Salaries it's $1.6 million. There doesn't appear to be

elimination of positions but I wanted to know the number of positions which are

included in this amount.

MR. CROCKER:

In this line?

MR. PETTEN:

Yeah.

MR. CROCKER:

There are 23 positions.

There's an allowance for $25,000 for overtime and $7,000 for other earnings.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay.

Grants

and Subsidies: what does this amount include? It's $4,000 across the board.

MR. CROCKER:

In this Grants and Subsidies,

two of the larger amounts would be $50,000 for provincial 4-H and $135,500 for

the Newfoundland and Labrador Federation of Agriculture.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay.

Under

your Allowances and Assistance, what's included in this amount? It's $20,000

across the board.

MR. DEERING:

Allowances and Assistance includes the delivery of various producer seminars.

Some are planned; some are kind of ad hoc. When a producer makes a request to us

to do some specialized training event, we will contemplate that and if we can do

it, we'll do it under this particular line.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay.

MR. CROCKER:

(Inaudible) just recently

some producers in the Stephenville area requested a seminar. We were able to

arrange the seminar I think it was just this past Friday, maybe. We would put

off a seminar in that area.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay.

Under

4.3.02, Grants and Subsidies, I know there's a variance there. It was less in

the revised amount from last year. What is the variance?

MR. CROCKER:

That was a variance due to

lower government premiums than anticipated. This is the Agriinsurance and

Livestock Insurance program.

MR. PETTEN:

Is it just lower premiums?

MR. CROCKER:

Yeah, lower government

premiums than we had anticipated.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay.

4.3.03,

Agricultural Business Development initiatives I should say. The Grants and

Subsidies, why is the decrease of the budget year over year is $500,000 but

revised is $400,000.

MR. CROCKER:

Yeah, the variance of the

$500,000 reduction is associated with the planned phase-out of the funding

associated with the former agriculture and agrifoods development program.

MR. PETTEN:

That's no longer?

MR. CROCKER:

This was a program that

Keith, it was last year's budget, right?

MR. DEERING:

Yes.

MR. CROCKER:

Yes.

MR. DEERING:

The former agriculture and Agrifoods Assistance Program was a program that was

really aimed at doing much larger-scale projects that were more or less off

limits to most farmers in this province. The projects generally were worth at

least $1 million and the producers themselves had to come up with a 50 per cent

cost-shared portion of it.

What we

were finding over the last several years was that we were not getting full

subscription to the program. I guess, last year, a couple of years ago, we

decided to sunset that program out over several years and put the remaining

money into the Provincial Agrifoods Assistance Program, which in fact is our

most popular program.

I guess

originally, before this infusion of additional money into this program, the PAAP

was worth about $2.25 million a year. The money that you see in this year's

budget actually represents a $1 million increase to the conditions and

guidelines under that budget.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay.

MR. CROCKER:

I guess the realities of the

PAAP; it's more available, more accessible to new entrants and smaller-scale

operations where this one was tailored to larger.

MR. PETTEN:

Bigger operations.

MR. CROCKER:

Our focus is not only new

entrants, but one of the things is making the industry attractive to new

entrants.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay.

4.304,

Growing Forward, Salaries; I know it dropped in the revised but it's gone up.

What's the reason for that fluctuation?

MR. CROCKER:

The savings was due to

vacancies during the year.

MR. PETTEN:

Right.

MR. CROCKER:

There were some salary

adjustments required for JES in '17-'18.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay.

Under

your Grants and Subsidies, under the same section, there seems to be a fairly

substantial variance across the board there as well.

MR. CROCKER:

Yeah. On line 10 the variance

is due to estimated program savings of $1.5 million, but we were able to carry

the funding forward into this year for the Growing Forward 2 Framework.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay, so the savings from

last year you added on for this year.

MR. CROCKER:

Yes. One of the realities of

this program this is the last year of the program. We're going to be focused

on actually getting that money out the door this year simply because this is the

last year of program. If it expires, we won't be able to avail of the federal

money.

CHAIR:

Ms. Michael, 4.3.01 to 4.3.04

inclusive.

MS. MICHAEL:

(Inaudible) questions, but my

first one is in relationship to the Growing Forward 2 Framework. There was no

discussion about the possibility of this continuing, it's just expired and

that's it?

MR. CROCKER:

Actually, the Growing Forward

2 Framework expires March 31, 2018.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right.

MR. CROCKER:

But it's anticipated that the

next framework agreement at the FPT table is being negotiated as we speak. The

agriculture ministers from across Canada will be in St. John's the third week of

July and it's anticipated that at that time hopefully we can announce the new

framework agreement.

MS. MICHAEL:

Oh, good. That's good news.

Minister, I'll ask this one first, 4.3.03, the Agriculture Initiatives:

Appropriations provide for Provincial initiatives to ensure continued

sustainability and environmentally sound development of the agrifoods industry,

including land development.

Is that

referring to land development that's done by producers or is government involved

in land development?

MR. CROCKER:

Government is involved in

land development Keith, feel free to jump in if I'm wrong but if a farmer

identifies, or a producer identifies land they want to clear, the government

will subsidize up to $3,000 an acre to help the farmer clear that land to make

it suitable for production.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right. So that would be there

then for the more intensive push you're looking at with regard to Crown lands.

MR. CROCKER:

Right.

MS. MICHAEL:

If somebody identifies land

then if clearing is needed.

MR. CROCKER:

Yes.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay. That's something that

we wanted to check on.

In the

Budget Speech, more than once there's reference to food security which I think

is an extremely important issue for us in the province and a couple of times

it's linked to one of the reasons not reasons but one of the relationships is

with the greater access to Crown lands is concern about food security.

Minister, I'm not aware of any in-depth discussion or planning that's going on

around food security. It's a real concern that I have. It's great that we put

money into the cranberry industry and I've never said no to that. I think it's

great and it's really good to see it succeeding. Now I know we're looking at

things like the growing of canola, though I don't think there are any

commitments around that yet, but those things really do not relate to food

security. So is there any discussion and planning going on?

MR. CROCKER:

Yeah, there is.

I think

if you go back to the budget and even The

Way Forward update, we talk about a program this year where we're actually

going to go out in a region of the province where we have some very, very good

soil and we're actually going to bring the land as a pilot project to the

state where it can be ready to be planted and encourage. Obviously, we are,

we're going to encourage the growth of crops that contribute to food

sustainability.

One of

the things as we negotiate the new framework agreement is many of the provinces

in the country are in a way different position than what we are so one of the

difficulties in this negotiation is provinces want to talk about maintenance and

maintaining their industry,

whereas our push for our priority is really our

industry, it's in an infancy stage.

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes.

MR. CROCKER:

So our priority will be to

grow an industry that's 10 per cent today. So there's lots of opportunity, but

it absolutely presents challenges.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right.

I'm not

saying this should happen, but I'm interested in what I'm going to say. With the

push with regard to more Crown lands becoming available and making that land

that can be used agriculturally, is priority given to people who come forward to

people who have that notion that what they're going to be doing is going to help

with our food security issue?

MR. CROCKER:

Yeah, we will certainly apply

that lens. When somebody I guess there are many ways to look at food security,

but we will certainly apply the lens, realizing that, as an example, root crops

are somewhere that we see as a priority.

Not

dismissing the fact that you mentioned canola, for example. Our supply manage

sector in the province does quite well. We're self-sufficient in everything

supply managed, but the reality is the growing of crops like canola and winter

wheat and cattle corn that go into the dairy industry, that's a sustainability

issue as well because we're importing.

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes, it is.

MR. CROCKER:

But, no, there certainly has

to be a focus on things like root crops.

MS. MICHAEL:

I totally agree with you on

the canola. Even I as I said it, I knew that we (inaudible) with regard to

canola. So in that sense it's different than the cranberry, for example.

MR. CROCKER:

Right.

MS. MICHAEL:

Thank you very much.

They're

all the questions that I have.

CHAIR:

Mr. Parsons?

MR. K. PARSONS:

I have a couple of questions.

Keith,

the first one, you mentioned assistance program, that's for the small farmers. I

know we dealt with a few in my district before. Is there a I know on the

larger ones it's 50/50. What's the ratio when it comes to small farms? Is there

a budget on a certain amount of money they can request?

MR. DEERING:

This particular program is also 50/50.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

MR. DEERING: But

we have a little bit more flexibility than we would with the federal-provincial

program, the Growing Forward program and the things that we can do with this

program. The Growing Forward program is actually up to 75/25 and the producer's

contribution is 25 per cent.

In a national multilateral framework agreement there are a

few more constraints in terms of how the money is spent. It's more focused on

innovation and business risk-management programs and things like that.

Under the Provincial Agrifoods Assistance Program we're

able to do more land development activities, fund farm equipment and things like

that.

MR. K. PARSONS:

That's another question, okay.

MR. DEERING:

Yeah.

MR. K. PARSONS:

So most of it is going

towards equipment for farms, farm equipment, tractors. Is there any of that

included in extension to barns and stuff like that? Is that the same?

MR. DEERING:

Absolutely. These are things

that are ineligible activities under the Growing Forward framework.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay, that's good. Thank you.

I have a

question, you said $3,000 per acre when you're clearing property and that's on

Crown land. Is that how that works? Is that something new that's there for Crown

land?

MR. CROCKER:

There would have to be a

lease in place to avail of that.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay because that would be an

issue for anyone who's trying to go through Crown Lands, you have to apply for

the land first and then is there a limit to the number of acres that a person

can apply for is it just ?

MR. DEERING:

There is a limit, obviously,

to the amount of money that's in the program.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Yeah.

MR. DEERING:

Believe it or not, our applications just went up on our website yesterday, I

guess, for this new fiscal year. We expect that we'll be fully subscribed in

terms of the numbers of applications submitted perhaps by the end of May.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

MR. DEERING:

So, obviously, we have

some prioritization to do and making sure we reach every corner of the province

that we can with this program.

We don't

want to spend it all on land development either.

MR. K. PARSONS:

No.

MR. DEERING:

There's no notional

cap but, generally speaking, most folks are not looking for any more than

$20,000, for instance.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay, so six or seven acres

of land.

MR. DEERING:

Yeah.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Obviously, there's going to

be a limit on it because of the amount of money that's available.

MR. DEERING:

That's correct.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Minister, you also mentioned

about root crops and stuff like that, you talked about land that was prime. We

call it prime land. Is that something that government is going to do themselves

or are they going to base it on private industry to develop that piece of land?

If it's Crown land, how do we go through it?

MR. CROCKER:

As we've said, I think it was

in The Way Forward , there is one piece

that we're going to do a pilot project on to make the land ready to plant, to

see what expression we can get from new entrants. So this is one area, a way of

trying to grow that industry and that focus will be on root crops.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

MR. CROCKER:

And to what extent it can be

on new entrants, respecting the fact that we do have to respect our current

growers.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

Just a

general question on Growing Forward, you said that it's going to be called

Growing Forward 3, the next program that will come out I would imagine. I'd say

I'll be pretty close on that one.

Are you

looking for additional funding this year with the availability of people you're

hoping to I mean you're talking about food security going from 20 per cent,

you're opening up all this land. Are there any negotiations that you have to be

able to increase the amount that the pot is going to be?

MR. CROCKER:

The position we've taken,

obviously, is to ensure our priorities are met in that. The federal budget

didn't really indicate a big increase in what would be in that envelope.

Obviously, it's a national envelope. We actually do quite well under that

program, because (inaudible)

MR. K. PARSONS:

No, that's great.

MR. CROCKER:

in Canada are treated the

same way. So we get the same funding as Nova Scotia, New Brunswick or PEI, who

would have larger industries.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Yeah.

MR. CROCKER:

But the main focus for us is

to make sure we're able to get it into our priorities.

MR. K. PARSONS:

That's a five-year program,

right?

MR. CROCKER:

It is.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay, right.

Thank

you.

CHAIR:

4.3.01 to 4.3.04 inclusive.

Shall

the subheads carry?

All

those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against, 'nay.'

Carried.

motion, 4.3.01 through 4.3.04 carried.

CHAIR:

4.4.01 to 4.6.02 inclusive.

Ms.

Michael, please.

MS. MICHAEL:

Thank you very much, Mr.

Chair.

4.4.01,

under Supplies, last year there was about $207,000 more spent than had been

budgeted. What caused that variance?

MR. CROCKER:

The variance is due to higher

than anticipated demand and costs associated with pharmaceutical supplies

required to deliver the program.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

MR. CROCKER:

As you can see, we did

increase the using the zero-based budgeting, there was a budget increase over

the budget of the previous '16-'17.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right, and it's hard to see

that when it's zero based this year but it wasn't before.

MR. CROCKER:

Right.

MS. MICHAEL:

Thank you.

Under

Professional Services, there was $50,000 budgeted but not spent, and this year

you're going down to $25,000.

MR. CROCKER:

Yes, the variance was due to

no recruitment of locums during the year.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay, thank you.

Purchased Services is going up a bit. It was revised downwards last year from

the budget, but we're going up to a bit more this year over even what was

budgeted.

MR. CROCKER:

Yes. The variance was due to savings associated with a reduction in vehicle

repairs and animal fostering costs.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

MR. CROCKER:

Again, the increase was due

to rightsizing and zero-based budgeting.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

Under

Revenue, Minister, there seemed to be unexpected rise in that last year. What

would that be?

MR. CROCKER:

The variance was due to a

higher than anticipated revenue as a result of burns done in the division's

incinerator.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay. Which incinerator?

MR. CROCKER:

We have an incinerator on

Brookfield Road.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right. Okay.

Thank

you.

MR. CROCKER:

It's (inaudible).

MS. MICHAEL:

Right.

4.5.01,

what was that revenue that came in provincially? It wasn't budgeted but $12,500

came in from somewhere.

MR. CROCKER:

Yes, it's a payment from

Newfoundland Eggs Inc. for infrastructure investment at Deadman's Bay cranberry

farm; one-time revenue.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay, thank you.

4.6.01,

again my question is under the Revenue. Revenue last year was budgeted at

$150,000; only $40,000 came in, this year up to $55,000.

MR. CROCKER:

Yes. The variance is due to

lower revenue from the sale of maps, air photos and other related products.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

4.6.02,

there is a big variance in the Professional Services.

MR. CROCKER:

That was due to lower than

anticipated consultant costs.

MS. MICHAEL:

What would the consultant

costs in this area be related to?

MR. CROCKER:

Keith.

MR. DEERING:

Under the Crown lands program we are often required to retain the services of

assessment experts to value Crown lands and things like that for purchase and

sale.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay. So that geos up and

down in relationship to how much Crown lands are being sought, I guess.

MR. DEERING:

Yes.

MS. MICHAEL:

Thank you very much.

They are

all the questions I have, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

4.4.01

to 4.6.02 inclusive.

Mr.

Petten, go ahead, Sir.

MR. CROCKER:

He's stealing your time, b'y.

MR. PETTEN:

You thought you were going to

sit down. You can't do that.

CHAIR:

The hon. Member is a little

quick.

MR. CROCKER:

I'm sorry, 4.4.01?

CHAIR:

Yeah, 4.4.01 to 4.6.02.

MR. CROCKER:

Okay, thanks.

CHAIR:

Mr. Petten.

MR. PETTEN:

Under 4.5.01, Salaries, the

revised amount was $118,000 less last year but it went up by $138,000 this year.

MR. CROCKER:

Yeah. The variance is due to

lower than anticipated salary expenditures under R & D related to temporary

positions and used to offset salary overruns in the production and marketing

division. The salary adjustment this year, which brings it back to the $578,000,

is JES.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay.

Lands,

4.6.01; the plan to move to Corner Brook, is that included in any of these

figures?

MR. CROCKER:

That part of the department

would be better reflected in 4.6.02.

4.6.01

is the regional structure: St. John's, Gander, Corner Brook, Happy Valley-Goose

Bay. We also operate satellite offices in Clarenville and Grand Falls.

MR. PETTEN:

The anticipated move to

Corner Brook

MR. CROCKER:

Yeah.

MR. PETTEN:

there will be leased space

required.

MR. CROCKER:

No.

MR. PETTEN:

Is that reflected anywhere in

the budget here now for 2016-17?

MR. CROCKER:

No, there'll be no additional

space required in Corner Brook. We'll go into our existing footprint in all

likelihood in Herald Tower where agrifoods is currently located, because the new

addition is agrifoods

MR. PETTEN:

So there's currently leased

space within the department enough to house Crown Lands?

MR. CROCKER:

Yes.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay.

That's

already been part of your budget?

MR. CROCKER:

Yes.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay.

Under

4.6.01, Salaries.

MR. CROCKER:

The variance of the downward

pressure was a delay in recruitment, and the slight increase this year over last

year, again, was JES.

MR. PETTEN:

So you say recruitment?

MR. CROCKER:

There was a delay in

recruitment.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay.

MR. CROCKER:

For the savings in '16-'17,

but the $11,000 increase in '17-'18 is related to JES.

MR. PETTEN:

Another question, when it

comes to this move to Corner Brook, where would the costs be for employees for

moving expenses and whatnot?

MR. CROCKER:

Obviously, we don't know

which positions are moving to Corner Brook. So we're not sure how many people.

We're doing our best to accommodate them in the current structure. That would be

found through the department, no different than we would find savings for

retirements or departures in other ways.

When

somebody leaves a department or retires, severances and that have to be found in

the existing structure.

MR. PETTEN:

So as of today you don't know

how many people will be actually ?

MR. CROCKER:

We're working with the

MR. PETTEN:

Yeah, the answer to my

question, there's nothing officially budgeted. Really, there's nothing

officially budgeted for the move.

MR. CROCKER:

Yes. Relocations are not

something that government has budgeted for because relocations happen all the

time. Again, no different than if you have a retirement in the department. We

don't budget for retirements, but as you would understand, that's something that

we find within the department. You see numbers back through Estimates tonight

where you see the revised was up because of a retirement or attrition.

MR. PETTEN:

Minister, what about the

digitalization of all of our Crown Land records? I know they're being

undertaken.

MR. CROCKER:

Well, no, actually it is an undertaking that we've undertook. We will start next

week digitizing the records. We've made it a priority of the department and

we're hoping our plan is to have all the records fully digitized by the end of

August this year.

MR. PETTEN:

Is there a fee? Is there a

cost associated with that which is included here?

MR. CROCKER:

No, we'll be doing it

in-house.

MR. PETTEN:

In-house? Oh.

Under

your Land Management, 4.6.02, I notice the Salaries are $66,000 less. That was

the elimination of a position?

MR. CROCKER:

Yes, there was a lands

supervisor position and there are also some salary adjustments as related to

zero-based budgeting. There's a variance in it from last year, a variance due to

vacancies within the division during the year and delays in recruitment.

MR. PETTEN:

I was looking, actually, at

last year's, for this Land Management and Development Division when it was under

Municipal Affairs and the description is identical. Budgeted Salaries for

2016-2017 in last year's Estimates was $597,000. This year it showed the

budgeted amount was $1.017 million and it landed at $951,000, but they're mirror

images of

MR. CROCKER:

We'll get it for you, b'y.

MR. PETTEN:

I'm just curious. Is there

something else included? Obviously, it seems to be, if you look at it. It was

just out of curiosity because you're trying to compare where it's moved, but

this description and the dollars and cents is just there's no difference in

verbatim, word for word, but the Salaries are twice as much.

MR. CROCKER:

We could probably provide you

with more clarification, but the Land Use Planning portion of this division

stayed with Municipal Affairs.

MR. PETTEN:

This is not Land Use

Planning.

OFFICIAL:

It was a part of it. We'll have to get that from last year.

MR. CROCKER:

We'll have to get it for you.

MR. PETTEN:

The exact same wording here

as is on this.

MR. CROCKER:

I don't have last year's

documents.

MR. PETTEN:

I'm familiar with planning,

right.

MR. CROCKER:

Yeah, but I don't have last

year's document in front of me. We'll certainly get you the information.

MR. PETTEN:

Once I saw it, it jumped out

when I was kind of thinking of

MR. CROCKER:

Tony is going to have a crack

at it.

MR. GRACE:

Midway through last year we took a portion over to Crown Lands, in August, with

Land Use Planning. What the Land Use Planning group does is it looks after a lot

of the municipal planning. It helps with all the municipal planning within

Municipal Affairs and it was thought it was a better fit to go into Crown Lands.

After

the moving of Crown Lands to Fisheries, Forestry and Agrifoods, it was decided

that branch of, I think it is nine individuals, would go back into MA.

MR. CROCKER:

Does that help?

MR. PETTEN:

No, it's gone the other way.

The Salaries have actually doubled but the description has not changed. If they

were cut in half, that explanation would make sense but it's gone the other way.

MR. CROCKER:

We will get you the answers,

Sir.

MR. PETTEN:

That's good.

Under

4.6.02, under your Purchased Services, it's $60,000 less.

MR. CROCKER:

Yeah, so the variance is due

to lower-than-anticipated purchased expenditures during the year: copier costs,

equipment rentals and vehicle repairs and maintenance. The number of $352,000 is

reflected from the zero-based budgeting.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay.

Minister, where would the revenue come from here? It's really a substantial

amount. Is that revenue for land sales or ?

MR. CROCKER:

Yes.

MR. PETTEN:

$8.5 million?

MR. CROCKER:

Yes.

MR. PETTEN:

Okay.

That's

anticipated. It was budgeted last year.

MR. CROCKER:

Yeah, so anticipated it was

$8.6 million and we sold $8.59 million.

MR. PETTEN: