VOL. 3 THIRD SESSION OF THE THIRTY-NINTH GENERPL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDL~~D PRELIMINARY UNE 'DITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 P.M. - 1:00 P. M . FRIDAY, MAY 4, 1984 NO. 31

May 4, 1984 The House met at 10:00 a.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Mr. SPEAKER (~ussell): Tape No. 1275 Order, please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS SD - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, today I want to inform the han. House of some new developments in our department's · hunter education programme and ne~ developments in our anti-poaching programme called Operation SPORT. Mr.

Speaker, we have had a hunter safety programme in this Province since the early 1970s, in fact, . since 1971, but it relied at that time on American produced training manuals and materials and was very narrow in scope. In September of 1983 1 for the first time ever, we unveiled a new written-for-Newfoundland and Labrador hunter education manual. I said at that time that it >vas the basis for a strengthened and broader hunter education programme.

The purpose of this programme is to promote respons ·ible hunter conduct, emphasize the importance of wildlife management laws and regulations,and to encourage the safe handling of huntrng equipment. Tlie hunter education course is to be delivered by volunteer instructors recruited from all over th.e Province. They are teachers, youth group leaders, rod and gun club members,or anyone with an interest and an ability to do th .e job. We have been using 335 ·1

May 4, 198~ Tape 1276 NM - 1 MR. SIMMS: volunteers, r-rr. Speaker, to deliver the programme since 1971 and it is common practice in all provinces. Today I wish to advise that a drive will be undertaken to recruit and train the instructors for this course. A series of workshops will be held beginning this Fall at several locations around the Province to introduce new instructors to the course and to retrain existing ones.

This marks a new beginning to our commitment to these people who give so much of their talents and time freely for the bettenrent of our young people and for t.~ bettenrent of our wildlife resources. We nm·l have about 100 instructors in the Province, many of whom have been training young people fer years to hunt safely. In fact, Mr. Speaker, one instructor in Grand Falls over the years has trained 800 students entirely on a volunteer basis. It is our goal to have 400 instructors continually delivering this programme.

The main role of my Hunter Education Branch will be to serve these instructors, keep them active, and provide them with high quality teaching materials necessary to deliver the course. And once we have these 400 instructors 1 it should be possible to train about 4,000 students a year. One important qroup of potential and current instructors are teachers in the high schools who presently teach the new environmental science course. In this course, students spend about ten to twelve hours studying moose and caribou big game management in the Province.

Many of these students will desire more information and a chance to apply some of this knowledge. The hunter education course would extend, and complement, and add real-life importance to the existing environmental science course. And I am pleased to say, Mr. Speaker, that qqt;? ...... ...., - ~

May 4, 1984 Tape 1276 NM - 2 MR. SIMMS: many teachers have already indicated a desire and an interest to get involved. Mr. Speaker, recent surveys indicate that about 48 per cent of our adult population have hunted at some point in their lives. Similar surveys show - and this is fairly significant - similar surveys show that more than 50 per cent of hunting accidents are caused 'by persons under the age of twenty-one years .. This obviously indicates that large numbers of our young people deserve the opportunity to be properly trained to hunt safely while learning more about our wildlife resources.

My department is, therefore, committeed to providing these people with the progra.nnne they deserve. Mr. Speaker, in October of 1983, Operation S.P.O.R.T. began as a pilot project in the Corner Brook, Bay of Islands, and Deer Lake area. Thanks to the people in that area, their desire to control big game poaching and their willingness to do something about it, operation S.P.O.R.T. has been extremely successful. The regional protection supervisor for the West Coast tells me'that the progra.nnne has been the single biggest step forward in wildlife protection in his memory. ,...., 1 '~ 3 J...,J

May 4, 1984, Tape 1277, Page 1 -- apb MR. SIMMS: Public apathy has been replaced by clear evidence of public support. Not only are calls coming in on the S.P.O.R.T. hot-line, increasing numbers of reports are being made directly to our protection officers. This programme has done what we hoped it would. It has provided citizens with an easy method of anonymously reporting poaching activity through a twenty-four hour toll-free telephone hot- line. So far, it has led to four convictions and the imposition of $7,500 worth of fines in just a six month period. As a matter of fact, Mr.

Speaker, that will change as of yesterday, because there was a further conviction and a further $3,000 fine. Since this is more than the programme cost, I suppose you could say that poachers are paying for an anti-poaching programme and even providing a surplus. But the programme does more than help to convict poachers. Probably its greatest benefit is in creating adeterrentto would-be poachers. A poacher who is only concerned about being caught by a protection officer has far fewer worries than the one who also has to be concerned about the law-abiding citizens of his community. Mr.

Speaker, when we introduced the programme, we knew that many people were sick of big game poaching and motivated to do something about it. But we did not know if there were enough to make a programme like this work. Now we are so encouraged by the results of the programme, and the spontaneous comments we get from people in the pilot area about its value, I am pleased to announce today that we have decided to expand this programme to cover the entire Province. 3354

May 3, 1984, Tape 1277, Page 2 -- apb MR. SIMMS: By early this Fall, operation S.P.O.R.T., which stands fa:( Stop Poaching, Report Today, will be available to all provincial residents. A toll-free number for reporting big game poachers will be advertised through a variety of media. Packages of information will be sent to licenced hunters and will be available at "'7ildlife Division offices to anyone interested in "participating in the Programme.

Since the cost of the programme during this fiscal year is dependent on the number of calls we receive, it is difficult to predict accurately, but we believe it will not exceed $10,000. Therefore, if the programme in the rest of the Province has the same success as it has had on the West coast, it should have very positive results. In the pilot area calls are continuing to come, Mr. Speaker, and, meanwhile, it should be noted that a citizen who reports a violation remains anonymous and never has to appear in court. The success of the programme, Mr.

Speaker, is due entirely to the concerned residents of the West coast and I want to take this opportunity to thank them for showing that they care about the future of our wildlife resources. They have set a ~ine example for the people of all other areas of this Province who, too, will soon have an opportunity to demonstrate the strength of their commitment to our natural heritage. SOME HON. MEMBERS : 3 ~r:,­t..J..JJ Hear, hear!

May 4,1984 Tape No. 1278 ah-1 MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The han. member for Bellevue. MR.CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, those of us on this side of the House are very happy and pleased with what the minister is announcing here today. We have been advocating for several years , as a matter of fact, similar programmes. Of course, the extra $5.00 that was tacked onto moose license application fees a couple of years ago was designed for this purpose, to give some education to combat poaching 1 and , of course, hopefully to bring i~to the schools.

And here the minister is saying today that that is what his department is getting into now in a substantial way. Concerning the earlier part of the Ministerial Statement, Mr. Speaker, about volunteers around •the Province teaching hunter safety and so on, as I have told the minister and the former minister, the minister who is now the present Minister of Fisheries (Mr.Morgan),when he was in charge of that department and the hunter safety programme, I complained for years that you do not go out and take a driver's license test until you get instruction first.

But one of the big things that was wrong with the hunter safety programme was that there was no real instruction or education given prior to somebody going and firing three or four shots and , of course, answering very elementary and very simple questions in a hunter safety test. I myself, as commanding officer of a Army Cadet Corps in Norman's Cove for several years, taught a dozen scores of young men the hunter safety course. And, of course, I got to know nat Latta, I guess he is still with the department, way back before I even .... ~-a J .... :J

May 4,1984 MR.CALLAN: House in 1975. Tape No . 1278 ah-2 became a member of this So it has been ongoing and the .re have been volunteers around for years and years. This is not new; the more the merrier,obviously. And the gentleman in Grand Falls who has trained 800 students, deserves, a pat on the back as do all of the other commanding officers and other youth leaders around the Province who are in any way trying to convey to our young people 3357

May 4, 1984 Tape 1279 . EC - 1 MR. CALLAN: the importance of maintaining the populations of big and small game in this Province. Because, as I said before, many Newfoundlanders, I am sure, do not realize when they go out poaching moose or rabbits or whatever, that neither of these two animals are native to this Province, they were introduced here from other provinces many years ago. It was around the turn of the century, actually, that rabbits and moose were introduced into this Province and, of course, have multiplied, and today we have large populations of both.

In connection with the second part of the minister's statement, Mr. Speaker, the Dial-a-Poacher programme, again is excellent stuff. I think the minister will admit that his department took a page out of the federal government's book. The federal government introduced Dial-a-Poacher in connection with the salmon fishery on the rivers on the West Coast and, of course, no matter where the idea came from, we think it is an excellent idea.

There is no question that all across this Province, not only on the West Coast but all across the Province, there are many hundreds of people, like myself and the minister, who are very concerned about the tremendous amounts of poaching going on. Two nights ago on the CBC programme Here and Now, we saw a film by Larry Hudson from the West Coast, showing the large amounts of poaching, and to see the baby moose there was just shocking, terrible!

Down on the Bonavista Peninsula last year,eighteen animals were shot in the woods and just left there with not one ounce of meat taken off them, something done to fight back at the government, 3358

May 4, 1984 Tape 1279 EC - 2 MR. CALLAN: it seemed, or this is how Bill Davis, Chief Wildlife Officer, explained it. It was a matter of hitting back at the government because those people 1obviously, could not get a moose licence or whatever. But anyway, anything that the minister and his department do, Mr. Speaker, to combat poaching and to educate our younger people, in particular, and to try to maintain some of the culture that we have is excellent stuff, and we support it, Mr. Speaker. MR . ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER (RUssell) : Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: ORAL QUESTIONS Mr.

Speaker • The han. the member for the Mr. Speaker, I have a couple of questions for the Finance Minister (Dr. Collins), who I understand is the acting Minister of Health. The Minister of Health (Mr. House) , of course, is unfortunately not with us at this stage. We hope to see him back soon, obviously, and the quicker the better. 3359

May 4, 1984 ~1R. ROBERTS : PRF;HIEP. PECKFORD: HR. ROBERTS: Tape No. 1280 He is doing well? Yes. ~1J'- 1 I am pleased to hear that and I know the Premier will convey the good wishes of all of us in the House to the minister. We may have our quarrels with the Minister of Health (Mr. House) in an official capacit~ but personally he is high on the list of the best-liked members of the House. Hr. Speaker, as I say, the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) 1I understand 1is the acting Health Minister,I want to ask him,if I may,a question or two about the changes to the children's dental programme which the Finance Minister announced in his Budget Speech. I am sure the minister recalls the changes but to refresh the House, briefly, the reference to the children's dental programme in the Budget Speech is simply that the charge levied by the dentists, or which must be levied by the dentists' against the parents or done without, has been increased by 150 per cent, from two dollars to five dollars a year. I wonder if the minister could let the House know, Mr.

Speaker, to begin with, what consultations were held with the Newfoundland Dental Association prior to the budget change? 1:-1ere any held and 1if so 1what were they? MR. SPEAKER (Russell):· The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, I do know that the Department of Health ,and the minister specifically ,is in frequent contact not only with the dentists but also with the medical people; there are frequent meetings throughout the year, I am sure that during these meetings the question of the dental plan would have been discussed because 'it is of very avid interest to the dentists,so it would be unusual if in meetings with the Department of Health they would not bring forward the topic for niscussion. >ro,v if the hon. member is asking did the Minister of Health 33GO

May 3, 1984 Tape No. 1280 MJ - 2 DR. COLLINS: request permission from the dentists to increase the fee, I would strong suspect - I have not actuall"' discussed that particular ?Oint •Hith the :Minister 3361

May 4, 1984 Tape 1281 PK - 1 . . ·~ DR. COLLINS: of Health (Mr. House) -but I would strongly suspect that he would say, No, I certainly did not. And it would be very unusual for him to do so. There has to be,until Cabinet makes a decision on the content of the budget, particularly in terms of fiscal matters, there has to be confidentiality. However 1 once the matter was finalized and once the House was informed about it 1I am absolutely sure that the Minister of Health would have acquainted representatives of the dental profession in full detail about the matter. MR.

SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I thank the minister. Certainly we on this s_ide would have been surprised if the specific proposal had been discussed by the Health Minister. The minister said the Finance Minister (Dr. Collins), I think he meant to say the Health Minister. We would be surprised obviously if the proposal had been discussed with the dentists because, of course, the principles of budget confidentiality are involved.

I wonder if the minister could tell us what has passed between the Newfoundland Dental Association's representative, its executive, and the Department of Health,for which he answers in the House at this stage, since the budget,which,of course,made the whole thing public, with respect to this particular charge. And just so we are clear what it is, the government did not increase the charge; what the government said is that the amount the_ government pays to the dentists for providing a service was reduced by $3 and if a scale for the service was,say,$20, in the old days ~"~q6? Ju -

May 4, 1984 Tape 1281 PK - 2 MR . ROBERTS: the gover nm ent paid $18, or 90 per cent 6f the scale. The government have now reduced it by the budget to $15, to 75 per cent of the scale, leaving the dentists a choice of either doing without or trying to collect the $5 from the parents. So that is a 100 per cent increase, of course. Could the ministe.:: tell us what passed between the NDA and the Department of Health since the budget with respect to that m.;~.tter, please? . 3363

May 4, 1984 Tape No. 1282 SD - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I am sure this does not come as a surprise, but I know that the dentists were not enamored with the change, you know, I do not think they welcomed it as something very desirable, and I know they made some representations to the Department of Health expressing their displeasure.

I am afraid at this stage I do not have at hand any details of the ~ubject in how it was discussed with the Department of Health,but !_certainly will, if the hon. member desires it, get at an early date a briefing, an updating, from the officials in the Department of Health and bring back any information along that line that I can. I think it was clear that the dentists were not too happy with the change and they have made some representations to the department. MR. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER: of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for the Strait Mr.

Speaker, before I ask a further supplementary, it is difficult to hear the minister although he is speaking in a normal tone of voice. There are some younger people outside or somebody outside the galleries,and it is difficult to hear unless we shout. Mr. Speaker, it does nothing for the decorum of the House for us to h.ave to raise our voices in what is , so far at least 1a very civil Question Period. Perhaps the attendants could be asked by Your Honour to try to keep the people watching the House, watching us perform, as quiet as possible. he would - MR. TOBIN: MR.

ROBERTS: I would ask the minister if They are seated now. My friend from Burin - Placentia West (Mr. Tobin) said? MR. TOBIN: They have all been seated now. 3364

May 4 , 1984 Tape No . 1282 SD - 2 MR. ROBERTS: I thank him. - Mr. Speaker, if the minister would undertake to ~et a statement for the House it would be much appreciated because I can tell him there is some considerable concern. I wonder if he would also undertake to tell tb.e House, by means of a statement 1 or however he wishes, whether the officials of the Department of Health have offered any advice on this matter?

B.ecause my understanding is that there has been strong representation made to the effect that, if there had to be savings in the dental programme, this is precisely the wrong change to have made because it will have the undoubted effect of decreasing the number of children who come forward or are brought forward by their parents. I guess children do not come forward to the dentist under voluntary terms but are brought forward by 3365

May 3, 1984, Tape 1283, Page l -- apb MR. ROBERTS: their parents to the dentist· for this work, and that the experience of the month, even since the budget changes were introduced, has confirmed this.

I am asking the minister if he would take a briefing, and I understand and accept that he is not up to date on all these thing, I would,not expect him to be, but a briefing on it because there is a very serious problem emerging in that the children's dental programme has worked extremely well in this Province over the years, it has attacked what the minister, I know, would concur,is a major public health problem, and yet this particular change is a significant step backward and the results of the last month, since it has come in, are confirming it.

So I wonder if I could ask the minister when he addresses the issue if he would address these concerns as well. MR. SPEAK ER{R uss ell ) : of Finance. DR. COLLINS: The han. the Minister Mr. Speaker, as I mentioned, I certainly will get an up-dating on what transpired between the department and the dentists on this matter and any matter related to it.

However, at this stage I just would like to make this comment, that when any service is decreased or changed or altered, obviously the practitioners of that service will become very agitated quite often, and will suggest things that will happen, and they do that honestly and, I am sure, out of real concern, but I think in many cases what one has to do it just listen to what they are sa ying; they are saying, We think this will happen, we suspect, or it will be that, and so on and so forth. 3366

May 4, 1984, Tape 1283, Page 2 -- apb DR . COLLINS : Now, as I say, tlley are oft .en doing that out of real conviction and concern, but, nevertheless, they are not doing it out of fact, they are projecting into the future what their fears might be, legitimate fear, and no one is complaining about that, but they are,nevertheless, projections. And we saw that last year when government found it necessary to tighten up on health expenditures; we did not cut back on health expenditures, we just tightened up the amount of increase, and there were misgivings expressed by the medical profession on that.

As a matter of fact, tl:lere were dire predictions made in some respects, when, in actual fact, none of those came about, certainly not to the extent that were projected. Now, I am not criticizing people for making those projections because, as I mentioned, I am sure they make them out of real concern and probably out of real conviction. But, nevertheless, we do have to understand that these are projections. Unfortunately, I have learn .ed that somewhat to my own chagrin, that projections do not often turn out the way that you think they might turn out. 3367

Hay 4, 1984 ·Tape No. 1284 HJ - 1 MR. SPEAKER 1Russell) : Before I recognize another hon. member, it is a pleasure indeed for me to \17elcome two grouiJS of students to the galleries today. First of all there are ten students from Grades VIII and IX and two adults from Lodge Bay, Labrador, which I understand is in the district of Eagle River. SOHE HON. HEHBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: We also have in the galleries twenty exchange students from the Seminaire Ste. Harie in Shawinigan, Quebec.

They are being hosted by twenty Grade IX students from MacPherson Junior High School who are enrolled in a French Umersion programme ,and these students are accompanied by Jean Marc Edwards and Diane 3riar~ and I welcome these people, particularly the visitors 1 to the Gallery. SOHE HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLA.~: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Simms) .

We note, of course 1 there was only one ~1inisterial Statement today so the election that we expected on the decision yesterday apparently will not be coming,but it is nice to aave Ministerial Statements on the weekend, especially when they co~cern the whole Province. There are some people in the Province, of course, who have jobs and "Tho have to plan their holida ys probably several months in advance depending on \17here they '\'lark. Now there is some confusion, I think, Mr. Speaker, around the Province as to when exactly the rabbit snaring season opens.

There is a large number of people who think that the rabbit season opens on the first of October. So I want to ask the minister would he confirm whether or not this is true or whether or not the la\17 says 3368

!-1ay 4 , 1984 Tape ~To . 1284 .MJ - 2 t·L'l. . CALLAN : that the rabbit season open~ on the first Saturday in October,which I think this year is the sixth. It \11ou1d make a lot of difference to someone .planning their holidays. Would the minister ans,11er that one? MR . SPRAKER (Russell) : The han. the l1inister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. ~.R. SIMMS: lotr. Speaker, I thank the han. member for his question; did raise it with me, I th~nk.1 some \'leeks ago and in fact I h,_,: some communication from one of his constituents.

I copied him on my ret)ly to that individual I am not sure if he has received a copy of it or nat· my knowledge there is no change in the usual practise 1 which is to open the rabbit season the first Saturday in October. where the confusion is comin g from . l-tR. C1-.LLAN : Hr . SJ?eaker , a sup plementary . 3369

May 4,1984 Tape No. 1285 MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. member for Bellevue, a supplementary. MR.CALLAN: There is confusion, Mr. Speaker, because the gentleman that the' minister refers to was going to take his holidays starting in the first week,but then,when he discovered that it is not the first week but the first Saturday in October that the seaso~ opens, of course, it makes ah-1 a lot of difference.

On that same topic, Mr.Speaker, I think there is also a fair amount of confusion because a lot of rabbit snarers misunderstanding around the Province are of the - or as far as I am concerned it is a misunderstanding -that rabbit snaring is like lobster catching, that you can put your lobster traps out the day before the season opens 1and a lot of people think that you can put out your rabbit snares the day before the season opens. Would the minister confirm or deny whether that is true or not? MR.SPEAKER: Recreation and Youth. MR. SIMMS: The hon. Minister of Culture, Mr.

Speaker, my understanding is that if the law says you can begin rabbjt hunting or snaring on the first Saturday in October, then I would suggest that that would be interpreted as meaning that you could not put out your snares until the first Saturday in October. If you do it before that,in my opinion at least, that would be illegal• HR.CALLAN: MR.SIMMS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. CALLAN: Can you put them out the night before? After midnight, I guess, yes. The hon. member for Bellevue. Mr. Speaker, last Fall in the legislature I asked the minister what his department 3370

May 4,1984 Tape No. 1285 ah-2 MR.CALLAN: was doing or planned to do about a situation , a troubleso~e situation, especially as it exists on the Avalon Peninsula where you have rabbit snarers and rabbit hunters with dogs.of course, in my particular area this problem >vas blown up a bit recently when a beagle club was t~lked about being established in the Bellevue area. And the minister at that time, last Fal~, in answer to my question,and I cannot quote him directly,but he said that officials of his department were studying the problem with a view to finding a solution.

Perhaps the solution would be to designate certain areas for hunters with dogs only and another areas for snares only. Would the minister inform the House whether or not anything has been done about that problem, any decision taken? MR.SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. minister. MR. SIMMS: Indeed the problem is a serious problern.One that we acknowledge. I did have my officials do a internal study, if you wish, to see if there was any way to overcome the problem.

It appears as if it will be really, really difficult to try to isolate certain areas for shooters and certain areas for snarers because of the long-time tradition that people have of snaring rabbits in particular. And it does not appear as if we are going to be in a position to do anything about that particular matter at this point in time. However 1I would hasten to add and make the member aware of an announcement I made quite recently with respect to · 3371

May 4, 1984 Tape 1286 NM - 1 MR. SIMMS: my intention to make public a green paper which will deal with management of big game and small game, deal with the licencing system tha~ we presently use, a computer licencing system, and many, many other matters that are of great interest and concern to the people around this Province who have an interest in our wildlife heritage. And that will be one of the items that we will put in that green paper and we will invite public comment.

Most of the people that have made representations to me about that particular issue have not,unfortunately,been able to offer me specific suggestions other than general suggestions 1which we have looked at but we are not convinced at this point in time would be a realistic solution to the problem. But I think the fact that we will make the opportunity available to the public to express opinions and suggestions to us in a green paper will perhaps help us find a solution to that problem and other problems that exist. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The han. member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr.

Speaker, I have a new question for the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. I refer to yeterday's questions that I asked the minister relating to the unemployment problems in this Province. Now the minister in his answer yesterday said that his department was not responsible for youth employment, or youth unemployment, however you look at it. But I refer, Mr. Speaker, to a statement issued Friday, - -- -- - -- August 5, last year, it was issued on August 5, it was on Friday, by the Minister of Culture, Recreation 3372

May 4 , 1984 Tape 1286 NM- 2 MR . CALLAN: and Youth, and th~ minister was referring to the fact that earlier in the Summer, on June 12 actually, the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth, along with his colleague, the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn), or Labour and Person­ power, that they had both gone to Ottawa on June 12 and had met with Mr. Rompkey and also Mr. Axworthy, even though Mr ..

Axworthy could not make the meeting 1 but they submitted some proposals for 500 jobs for the young people in this Province and apparently nothing came of that~ But the minister, on August 5, almost two months later, puts out a press release where he condemns the federal people for the high rate of unemployment among the young people in the Province, and,of course 1 gives no solution.

In view of last year's experience,where the two ministers that I just mentioned tried to involve Ottawa in a cost-shared student employment programme that would have employed 500 students, in view of that not coming to fruition, let me ask the minister- and I do not care which minister answers it, the Minister o.f Labour and Personpower, or Culture , Recreation and Youth- 3373

May 3, 1984 1287 PK - 1 MR. CALLAN: let me ask one of these ministers what programmes are planned for this year? Are there any proposals on the table to having something cost shared with Ottawa? What programmes of any kind are on the go for youth employment for this Summer? MR. SPEAK ~ R (Russell) : Recreation and Youth. MR. SIMMS: The hon. Minister of Culture, Well, Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member would permit I would just like to briefly address his

preamble and then , again if the hon. member would permit, I would ask my colleague to deal with the question of plans. But just to deal with the

preamble, if I might, with respect to that proposal we put forth last year 1 the reason I was involved in that was because the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) and myself were directed by Cabinet to put forth and present this proposal to the federal government,which we did, and unfortunately we did not receive a response to. it.

And what I was saying in my answer yesterday to the hon. member's question related to the mandate of the Youth Services Division of the Department of Culture, Recreation and Youth,which is not one of involvement with respect to the creation of employment projects and things of that nature. That specific project was one that I was directed to present to the federal government by Cabinet specifically. So,having addressed the

preamble, may I seek the permission of the hon. member to refer the second part of the question to my colleague, the hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower? 3374

May 3, 1984 Tape 1287 PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Is it agreed that the han. Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) answer the question? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. SPEAKER: Agreed. MR. DINN: Well, Mr. Speaker, the han. member asked what federal/provincial programmes, I guess he means- MR. CALLAN: MR. DINN: Or totally provincial. - or totally provincial with respect to the creation of jobs for the youth of the Province.

We have been sending correspondence back and forth between my department and the Federal Department of Employment and Immigration with respect to them participating in programmes for youth and general employment programmes in the Province similar to the type of programme that we had on the go last yea4 which han. members will be aware of, called the NEED programme.

We wanted, for example, the Canada Works monies that would be spent in the Province this year to be possibly even cost shared with respect to employment similar to the NEED programme, becaus: the programme last year spent something like $30 million and the programme was assessed by a federal committee and the federal committee indicated that that programme was the best make-work type programme that we have ever had in the ·Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DINN: Not only that 1 the assessment was done across Canada.

So out of that assessment,having read that assessment and agreeing with most of what it said, we 3375

May 4, 1984 Tape 1288 EC - 1 MR. DINN: held a federal /provincial conference in New Brunswick several months ago, at which conference I asked the federal minister if a programme similar to NEED, using Canada Works money or additional moneys, would be put forward in the country this year. The federal government indic~~ed quite clearly that they were not willing to participate with any province with respect to cost-sharing in job creation, and I thought that was a very disappointing thing.

Now, the federal government have provided moneys for 1984 - 1985 for job creation and the moneys, specifically, are in Canada Works. This Province has been allocated $28,131,000 - MR. CALLAN: For Canada Works? MR. DINN: For Canada Works. MR. CALLAN: No, for Young Canada Narks. MR. DINN: No, for Canada Works. The LEAD programme provides $9. 9 million c; the Career Access programrr.e, Job Core and Summer Canada provide $5,800,000, $2,207,000 and $532,000.

As I said, the unfortunate thing about these programmes is that there is no consultation or communi­ cation or assessment done with any of these programmes, nor is there any input by the Province for the spending of any of these dollars, even though we had a programme last year where we did have some say in the operation and the programme was assessed to be the best programme that was ever put off by Canada Manpower or Canada Employment and Immigration in the country. So there is no cost-sharing on those, nor will the federal government permit us to cost-share in these programmes.

That covers the federal part of it. The provincial government, through the different departments, is providing quite a 3376

May 4, 1984 Tape 1288 EC - 2 MR. DINN: few dollars this year for job creation. Unfortunately, :i,t be'comes very difficult with the dollars that we have available to be able to pinpoint these dollars to different categories and classifications in society. The Minister o:E Social Services (.Mr. Hickey}, for example, this year, has been 1 .} given a $6 million increase to his programme for job creation that will pr?vide quite a number of jobs this Summer. Last year, out" of $9 million, I think we got 4,400 jobs. And that programme is 3377

l-1ay 4, 1984 Tape No. 1289 SD - 1 MR. DINN: a lot better than the NEED progr~me which was assessed to be a very good programme. So it is very difficult for this Province, with the few dollars that we have, to just pinpoint different sectors of society when we know that in that particular programme, where we had a few dollars the success of the programme was such that if we had a few dollars we have to put it in areas where it will do the most good. I have to compliment my colleague the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) for the success that programme has had.

The other thing, to my surprise, was that we were not able last year to get cost sharing for those dollars spent in Social Services on job creation; we were not able to get cost sharing with the federal government on the $9 million that we did spend.

And at the conference in New Brunswick I found out, to my surprise, that Quebec was the only province in Canada with a similar programme to the programme my colleague had, on which he spent $9 million and could not get cost sharing, but Quebec allocated $60 million and got $60 million cost sharing from the federal government under CAP - the Canadian Assistance Programme - the minister's home province. So it is very, very difficult for this Province, it seems, to get any fairness or equity from the federal government at this point in time.

And I do not think it is just isolated to this Province; I think there are some other provinces that have·the same sort of problem with the federal government. As I say, the Social Services Department had $9 million - with federal participation it should have been $18 million - and under the criteria it was probably the best job creation programme in Canada. In Quebec, where they put $60 million in, they had another $60 million thrown in by the federal government under CAP, through Health and Welfare Canada. MR. SIMMS: MR. DINN: What was their explanation? There was no explanation.

A brochure was put forward at the meeting by the Province of Quebec, and the other ministers went into a state of almost 3378

May 4, 1984 Tape No. 1.289 SD - 2 MR. DINN: shock because . they knew nothing about it,.and to requests that other provinces had made to the federal government for cost sharing, as my colleague did 1 they just said, 'No, we are not cost sharing these programmes. •· So, you know, we would like to cost share programmes, we would like to be able to have the dollars available to go it alone out we do not, we would like 3379

May 4, 1984 Tape No. 1290 SD - 1 MR. DINN: to be able to cost share but we do not seem to be able to get fairness and equity from the federal government for any job creation type of programmes. MR. SIMMS: MR. CALLAN: A good answer. Hr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The han. member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: for his answer. I thank the minister, Mr. Speaker, I cannot debate it but I know how he feels and I know the experience of unfairness and inequity.

You know, last year, for example, four students were hired for Jack's Pond provincial park in my district and did those four students come from the district of Bellevue? No, they came from Conception Bay. So I know about unfairness and inequity. I know about the problems that this government has with Ottawa. What the reasons are, of course, is another question. But in the three or four minutes that I have left, Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor) a new question. I want to switch from rabbits and moose and vouth - - unemployment to the American Hockey League.

We are all very interested in hockey at this time of the year and some of us are disappointed that Montreal lost last night and some of us are happy, especially on the government benches. Mr. Speaker, last September, as the Minister of Development will recall, there was a hocke y tournament held in St. John' 's, called the Sealers Challenge, involving four teams from the American Hockey League, the AHL. One of the four teams was called the Moncton Alpines, which was a farm team of the Edmonton Oilers, who are going to win the cup this year, it looks like.

At the time, last Septe~er, there was considerable speculation of St. John's getting the franchise in the AHL for the 1984/85 hockey season. However, for this to happen, of course, there had to be costl y renovations 3380

May 4, 1984 Tape No. !290 SD - 2 Mr. CALLAN: made to Hemorial Stadium.· I would like to ask the minister if his department has commissioned any studies, or ar .e there any reports forthcoming on the financial impact such a hockey franchise would have on the economy of St. John •· s in p;;trticular and the Province in general? The minister knows, I am sure, that a hockey franchise would probably he a great means of advertising Newfoundland to the Mari.:times and the Eastern Unit .ed States. So let me ask the minister 3381 ' '

May 3, 1984, Tape 1291, Page 1 -- apb MR. CALLAN: what studies or reports are forthcoming from the minister's department regarding the AHL? MR. SPEAKER(Russell): The hon. the Minister of Development. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, yes, I remember the Sealers Challenge very well. I, in fact, attended one game and have a fine pair of seal skin boots, made locally, ~Thich I bought l'lhile I was there to prove it. Mr.

Speaker, as it relates to the possibility of a franchise, obviously that is a commercial venture which, if it is viable, if it is commercially feasible may indeed go ahead, and I understand there is a group of local citiznes who have been looking at that. No formal approach has been made to my department. I understand my colleague may have had some preliminary discussions with them, but there have not, to our knowledge, been any formal approaches made requesting funding. We could only, obviously, consider that once we have seen the projections of the private group.

Once we have seen the projections of the private group, once they come forward with their information as to what revenues they would be able to generate, and what assistance, therefore, might we required in order to make it a viable venture, we then would do a normal financial assess~ent as we would do with any development opportunity, to decide whether or not that is a viable venture on its own, or if it would require government assistance, and then, in fact, if that government assistance is of a level which can be justified, based on the rate of return that would come to the Province from this venture proceeding.

So once we get that kind of an approach, we would certainly be happy to look at it. MR. SPEAKER: Time for the Question Period has expired. 3352

May 4, 1984, Tape 1291, Page 2 -- apb ORDERS OF THE DAY Motion, the hon. the Premier to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act Respecting The · AWard Of Bravery", carried. (lJill No. 25). On motion, bill No. 25 read a first time, ordered read a second time on t.omorrow. Motion, the hon. the Minister of Health to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Provide For The Registration Of Psychologists", carried. (Bill No. 30). On motion, bill No. 30 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Mines ana Energy to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Quarry Materials Act, 1976", carried. (Bill No. 29) On motion, bill No. 29 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole to consider certain resolutions, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. 3383

May 4, 1984 Tape 1292 NM - 1 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE: MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Motion 2. Yesterday I recall the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins .) spoke for a couple of minutes. DR. COLLINS: MR. CHAIRMAN: that the - MR. ROBERTS: minister wish to speak? MR. CHAIRMAN: of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Question! Is it the pleasure of the House Mr. Chairman, does not the The hon. member for the Strait Speaking for the entire Opposition, Mr.

Chairman, I know I speak for all of them without any fear of contradiction at all, I am not sure the minister addressed the point wh~ch we raised yesterday, so I would ask him to address it briefly again. The ad valorem tax has been lifted from the tobacco products, we talked about that yesterday and the Committee approved it, but the tax on gasoline of course is still an ad valorem tax. All that this measure does is reduce it in two areas of the Province, those areas contiguous to the Province of Quebec. And the government have decided to reduce it in those areas and the people there welcome it I am sure.

But, Mr. Chairman, the question remains of"the wisdom of the ad valorem tax as a method of raising taxes on consumable items such as gasoline or tobacco. We have ad valorem taxes - the RST is an ad valorem tax, the income tax is ad valorem - but traditionally, on gasolin~ and such like, we have levied fixed taxes, taxes at determinable amounts. We have gone back to that now in the case of tobacco, we have not in the case of gasoline. I wonder if the minister could tell us briefly, or whatever length he wants, subject to the rules, of course, whether he proposes to make some 3384

May 4, 1984 Tape 1292 NM - 2 MR. ROBERTS : change in the fut~re, whether the matter is under review, or whether he is satisfied with this method now. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Well, Mr. Speaker, I am sure it does not come as a surprise to the hon. member or members of Committee that I do not like taxes. I do not think anyone likes taxes. We would all ~e glad to reduce them or even eliminate them if it were ever possible. In this particular regard there did seem to be a special problem - this is referring to the tobacco tax - there did seem to be a special problem there.

The ad valorem mechanism was really causing almost a ridiculous situation, as I mentioned yesterday, one was piling on top of another and that the actual level in cents being collected on a cigarette was really getting out of hand and we had to put a stop to it. And my understanding is that other jurisdictions are coming up against the same problem. I do not know if other jurisdictions have switched over from the ad valorem to the straight tax or not. Now I have an impression that at least one did, but I may not be totally accurate in that.

But I know that the problem has been discussed by other jurisdictions and if they have not done it I very, very strongly expect that some of them will find a necessity to do what we have done. Now, there was 3385

May 4,1984 Tape No. 1293 DR.COLLINS: a particular problem there so that is essentially why we dealt with that. And, of course, there was this extra thing in Labrador where cigarettes were, shall we say, an attraction to go elsewhere and purchase other things to the detriment of businessmen on our side of the border. In regard to gasoline, I suppose you might say, -well 1 if you do it for tabacco you should have done it for gasoline. The only thing is the gasoline problem, the level of taxation on gasoline had not got out of hand.

Our revenue take on gasoline in this Province is not that much out of line with other provinces. As a matter of fact,I think some other provinces , I believe it is PEI - ah-1 l.ffi. ROBERTS: How do you determine when it gets out of hand? By dollars per capita or cents per gallon or what? DR.

COLLINS: Well, what I am saying is that the amount of tax we exact on a litre of gasoline, for instance, is not that much different from what other provinces are getting, As a matter of fact,I am pretty sure it is PEI whichhas a considerably higher gasoline tax than we have,so our ad valorem tax on gasoline has not caused the problems, the sort of ridiculous situation, I will term it that, that the ad valorem tax on tobacco had caused, and for that reason we decided to leave the gasoline tax alone.

It had not caused significant problems and,secondly, I am afraid that our needsfor revenues were such that we felt we could only reduce taxes at this stage where there was an urgent necessity to do so. We did decide that in the tobacco situation there was a real necessity to do so because the thing was silly almost, 3386

May 4,1984 Tape No. 1293 ah-2 DR. COLLINS: In the Labrador West situation we felt there was an urgent necessity to reduce taxes because it was harming local business activity up there. But in other respects, even though it was not desirable to have such a level of taxes, they were not causing th·e prob]..ems that we were finding in those other two areas 1 and our need for revenues were such that we felt that we could not move-on it. MR.ROBERTS: MR.CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Strait of Belle Isle. MR.ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman. The han. member for the Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I appreciate the minister's answer and I will take it for what it is worth. I wonder if the minister could indicate to the Committee,and perhaps we might ask it as well in respect of the tobaccotaxwhat it is going ~o cost,in his estimate he must have an estimate~to lower the tax rates in respect of the two areas of Labrador?

Because , of course, it is not simply the Western Labrador area; In the case of cigarettes,I believe it is both Western Labrador and Southern Labrador- I do not have the bill in front of me - and in case of gasoline and there is an important distinction, it is only Southern Labrador, the area really served by the road. The road begins at the Black Rocks in what is now Eagle River district -for a while it was part of the district which I represent.

The road begins at the Black Rocks,which is just on the Newfoundland side of the border, the first Quebec community is Blanc Sablan 1 and the first Newfoundland-Labrador community is L'Anse-au-Clair 1 and the road goes up as far as Red Bay, about thirty miles, whatever that works out to, I guess fifty kilometers. 3387

May 4,1984 Tape No . 1293 ah-3 MR.ROBERTS: So the people who live in that area will be exempted from paying the gasoline tax and there is a lot of merit in that . Our tax is unconscionably high and the Quebec one is significantly lower and , I guess , gasoline knows no nationality, it knows no border . It is like a rabbit or a moose. We have the problem with the caribou down in Northern Labrador that do not realize they are crossing provincial boundaries. Is it the George River herd it is called? And, of course, that leads to negotiations and discussions with Quebec . I wonder if the minister could 3388

May 4, 1984 Tape 1294 EC - 1 MR. ROBERTS: tell us, Mr. Chairman, please, what his estimate is ofwhat it will cost to implement this exemption which I think all members of the House are supporting? And, growing out of that, can he tell us what it will cost - this is a little beyond the bounds of order, but I hope Your Honour will allow me to ask and allow the minister to answer - what it will cost to implement the cigarette tax exemption?

And, could he tell us as well - why the gasoline tax exemption is extended only in respect of Southern Labrador and not in what we shall call Western Labrador, the area in the district of Menihek, the communities of Wabush and Labrador City which, of course, are connected by road with the Quebec community of Ferment. And I assume Ferment has gas, and I assume you 'can buy gas in Ferment for less than you can buy it in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador at Labrador City and at Wabush. So I notice we are not making an exemption in respect of gasoline tax for the people who live in Labrador City and Wabush.

We are making it in respect of the tobacco tax, as I recall it. I wonder if the minister could address those two or three questions, please, Sir? MR. CHAIRMAN -(Aylward): The han. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, we only have ballpark figures for how much it will cost because, you know, habits could change because of these changes, that is, consumption habits could change and so on, but we estimate that the gasoline change in Labrador West will be a very minimal cost, something of the order of between $30,000 and $50,000 a year. MR.

ROBERTS: The gasoline tax change does not apply to Labrador West. 3389

May 4, 1984 DR. COLLINS: MR. ROBERTS: Tape 1294 EC - 2 No, just Labrador South. Okay, you said Labrador West, you meant Labrador South . .. DR. COLLINS: Labrador South, I am sorry. I will go into why we are just doing Labrador South in just a moment. MR. ROBERTS: Sure. DR. COLLINS: Really there is quite a minimal cost, it is a ballpark figure but we estimate it likely will not cost us much more than something of the order of $50,000.

Now, in tobacco, we estimate that it will be some\vhat more costly, but probably not in excess of $500,000, and the tobacco tax, as the member mentions, the change there will apply not only in Labrador South but also in Labrador West. as well. The reason why we did the tobacco tax in both areas and the gasoline in just Labrador South was purely a logistical one, shall we say, because if you are in Labrador West and you want to buy cigarettes, you can go over there and you can buy cartons, shall we say, and bring them back.

Now, strictly speaking, you should not bring them back without notifying the minister that you are bringing them back and paying the tax on them but, I mean, in practical terms, let ·us face it - MR. ROBERTS: You w·ould need an army of policemen to search every vehicle. DR. COLLINS: Yes, you would really have to set up border guards anL everything. MR. ROBERTS: The same as liquor, there is no way to ever stop people from bringing in liquor. DR. COLLINS: It is just an impossible situation to do anything about that. But that is possible, people 3390

May 4, 1984 Tape 1294 EC - 3 DR. COLLINS: can go over there and buy a large amount of cigarettes and bring them back.- Now, it is not likely that they would go over and bring back large amounts of gasoline because it is much more difficult to transport and, certainly, if anyone went over with a tanker and brought back gasoline, they might get away with it once or twice, but,sooner or later, word would get out and we would do something about it.

The other point is that it really is not good sense financially for a person to drive his car from Labrador City - Wabush over to Ferment and fill up because he is going to use so much gas getting over there and so much gas getting back that the benefit to him is minimal. So we felt that there would not be much traffic in that way. ·And again, we were a bit Scrooge­ like, I suppose, we might have given them that relief, but we said, we do not have to give them that relief and we need the money, so we will not give them that relief. That is what it came down to. MR. ROBERTS: MR.

CHAIRMAN (Avlward) : Strait of Belle Isle. MR . ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman. The hon. the member for the Thank you, Sir, and again I thank the minister. I must say, I agree with his comments. It is, as I recall, eighteen kilometers from Labrador City" to Ferment and if you saved,say 1 two or three cents a litre, you would burn up at least that much in going back and forth, as he says,

whereas in the case of Southern Labrador, it is only a couple of miles from L'Anse-au-Clair up 3391

Hay 4, 1984 Tape No. 1295 !~J - 1 HR. ROBERTS: the hill, across the Black Rocks and down into Blanc Sablan. Let me turn to another aspect of the gasoline tax. The yield from the tax this year is estimated by the minister in Statement 2, which is part of the budget paoers we have been given, as beino ~67.6 million.

The revised estimate from the 1983 - 84 FY, the vear which ended on 31 March, 1.,ras $65 millions, and I think that is probably a pretty good guess, those figures '''ere :orobablv :out together at the end of February or early in March, the gasoline tax comes in on the fifteenth of the month, and we probably had ten month actuals, maybe even eleven months actuals, so the nu..rnber $65 millions is a orettv accurate estimate of what in fact the tax vielden during the 1983 - 84 fiscal year.

Now I did not bring my handy-dandv little "calculator here, but the minister, I have no doubt, will recall the devastation I v1rought on his bun~et last vear with my handy-dandy little calculator on the sales tax, but S2.6 millions on S67.6 millions is about 3.5 noints, about a 3.5 per cent increase, and I assure the minister the numbers are close enough to correct. I 'llonder if he could tell the Committee, !~r. Chairman, ~Thy he is estimating the yield of the gasoline tax going up 3.5 per cent?

The yield is directly related to the number of gallons, so there must be a methodologv behind it. ]l._nd let me also, since we are talking about the tobacco tax, the yield on the tobacco tax is down marginally, from $42 millions to $41.8 millions, that is $200,000 on S42 millions, that is a little less than . 5 per cent. So l'le are talking in one case a flat yield, a little flatter than flat, 99.5 per cent as against 100 ner cent last year,

whereas in the case of the gasoline tax we are talking 103.5 per cent this year as opposed to 100 per cent last vear. I wonder · if; the minister can tell us how we come by these nur!'bers? Let me sav, '~r. Chairman, 3392

Hay 4, 1984 Ta:oe No. 1295 MJ - 2 M..J:t. ROBERTS : briefly that the revenue figures are the oart of the budget to t-thich little attention is paid as a rule but of course thev are the heart of the \"hole process. The estimates of expenditure are relativelv straiohtfon.,ard; the government decide what programmes thev are going to fund and \"hat expansions thev are going to allO\oT, if any, \•That new programmes they are going to bring in, if any, and then the rest flo ~ s fairly automaticallv. The \"age rates are set, the interest rates that He have to :oay on our debt is beyond our control, and so forth, but these are not 33 93

May 4, 1984 Tape 1296 PK - 1 MR. ROBERTS: matters of the Cabinet need tangle with at any great length other than to ensure that adequate systems are in place to make certain that the amounts requested by the departrnwnts to operate and to continue offering services and programmes are the minimum necessary amounts to provide ,the desired level of service . It is the revenue estimates that cause the problems, and I do not meiln tax increases because they cause their own problem.

Last year, as the minister will concur - and I am not going to go into the reasons, he and I differ on that; let us put that aside - it was the revenue estimates that got us into trouble on the budget. And the reason why, at the end- I think we had four budget statements during the year~ the main one, and then a second, third, and fourth attempt / as I recall - was the revenue yield which gave us the trouble in that they were significantly below the projections in the budget.

So that is why I want to raise these two , because we are talking about them this morning and again yesterday afternoon: Why the difference in the yields? There is a methodology,I am sure 1but I do not know what it is. Why bother speculating? The minister is here, so let he ~ck him why in the case of the gasoline tax we are expecting a 3.5 per cent yield

whereas in the case of the tobacco tax we are expecting .5 per cent diminution ? I am not suggesting that gasoline and tobacco are related one to the other, obviously they are not 1 but what are the formulas we we are using to calculate these? MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : DR. COLLINS: The hon. Minister of Finance. Mr. Chairman, yes, as the member says some of t_he revenue projections last year were off and,of course, we have gone into that extensively over previous months. At this point I would just recall 1though 1 to the Committee members' minds that our revenue comes from two sources,federally collected sources and provincially collected 3394

May 4, 1984 Tape 1296 PK - 2 DR. COLLINS: sources, and we do provincial projections on what we collect and the feds do projections on what they collect. And our margin of error was about the same. I think the amount we were off at the end of the year 1 half of it was due to our projections being off , half due to the feds beiz: ,:r off. And it was just that that was a year when it was very difficult to make accurate projections, things were very volatile. You k~ow, I am happy about this, but one of the things that caused the difficulty wa~ the drop· . in the inflation rate.

Because if your inflation is high, you know, really your revenues are high; if your inflation goes down,your revenues on a corrunodi ty tax base go dm.,n. MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible) Pro gressi ve feature of the income tax. DR. COLLINS: Right. MR. ROBERTS: I generally am right. DR. COLLINS: But these things are desirable, it is desirable to ~ave inflation come down but, ne vertheless, it does put one's projections off. Now in the specific question here, in recent years we have improved , at least personnel-~.,ise , our anility to ~roject.

I do not .. know if one can point to results,to actual facts and figures, and get confirmation of what I am going to say now, but certainly from a personnel point of view we have improved ou~ fiscal policy capability. We have a large number of people there and we have, I think, improved the classification of the people in fiscal policy, and this whole effort was to try to give us a better handle on our revenue projections. The means to do that is available , I could certainly get the actual formulae. :U have seen them, unfortunately I do not have the actual formulae with ~e just now but I can get them.

On the gasoline tax there are 3395

May 4, 1984 Tape 1296 PK - 3 DR. COLLINS: factors . One did not take off the ad valorem so we will see some increase in the actual cents per litre that we will get as the year goes by because 1 undoubtedly,there will be some change in the base and therefore there will be some change in the cents we get per litre. That is one factor . The other factor was the recovery from the recession. One of the striking things about it was 3396

May 4, 1984 Tape No. 1297 SD - 1 DR. COLLINS: the increase in motorcar sales, in automobile sales. And.these two factors together.are going to lead to greater gasoline consumption in this corning year. That is what our projects say, and that is why there was an increase in the gasoline tax revenues

whereas there is not the same increase in tobacco revenues because We do not anticipate that there will be that increase in the consumption of tobacco products. But there will be an increase, that is our project. in the gasoline tax yieldboth from the point of view of consumption, because there are going to be more motorcars around, and secondly, there will be some increase in the actual cents per litre that we get because of the retention of the ad valorem mechanism. MR. ROBERTS: MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : of Belle Isle. Mr. Chairman. The hon. member for the Strait MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Chairman, I think we have probably taken the matter as far as we can. I wonder if I could take the minister up on his offer. I do not know if he wants to table them. I suspect the formulae would be of crashing indifference to many of our colleagues in the House, Sir, although I know Your Honour would take them horne and spend the weekend reading them and comparing them. If the minister wishes to table them, of course, that is up to him, but if he decides that that may not be necessary, would he be kind enough to send them to me.

I assume they are standard formulae, I do not want to know anything that I should not, just standard formulae. Perhaps he could give me some indication as to whether the formulae - that is a-e for the benefit of my friends in Hansard - which we use for these purposes are comparable to those which are used across the country. Let me just say as well, if I recall correctly, the senior officials directly responsible 3397

May 4, 1984 Tape No. 1297 SD - 2 MR. ROBERTS: for fiscal policy is Mr. Edward Power 1 who,I believe 1is the Assistant Deputy Minister (Fiscal Policy) ,and I would ce~tainly second the minister's words of commendation· Changes in the Department of Finance began back in the late '60s 1 I think. Denis Groom came in as Deputy Minister and changes began to be made, Victor Young came in, David Mercer, Ed Power, in fact, worked with the department, thenr I believe 1 went off with DREE, if I remember correctly, and had a spell in private industry as a consultant. DR. COLLINS: Board of Canada. MR. ROBERTS: DR.

COLLINS: MR. ROBERTS: He was with the Conference The Conference Board of Canada? Yes. I did not know that. r obviously have not read his CV recently. But there is a nucleus of absolutely superb officials- David . Norris 1 who is now the Deputy Minister of the Finance Department; Gilbert Gill - and they started corning in in the late ''60s and over the '70s they rose up through the system. And I think from time to time it is entirely appropriate for us in the House to take note of the fact that the public service has become much more profess ·ional over the last fifteen years.

It began in th .e late ''60s 1 really· 1 with the creation of what has · now · become the modern Treasury Board 1 and I think it is very much. to the good of the Province. The mini:s ·ters are respons·ible, of course, to the House and to the people of the Province, nut in the long run any minister '·s ability to make sound decisions, Mr. Chairman, will be very directly related to the quality of the advice whi:ch they get 1 and I have no daunt they are getting better advice. 3398

May 4, 1984 Tape No. 1298 NM- 1 MR. ROBERTS: I am not sure the decisions are much better but that is a·· political quarrel,. But I think it is entirely appropriate of the minister to point out the fact that the capability has been improved and I would like to second that. I will wait to get the formulae. I will tell the minister now I will put some of my own friends to work: · He might be surprised to know who some of my friends are who do these things for me from time to time. So I will put some of my own friends to work and perhaps produce some interesting information there.

I would be grateful if he would let me have the formulae, we could carry on from there. I think 1 speaking for my colleagues, Sir, we are prepared to let the resolution go through the Committee unless of course the minister or somebody else wants to speak. DR. COLLINS: By acclamation. By acclamation. Motion, that the Committee report having passed the resolution and a bill consequent thereto, carried. · MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible) resolution. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylwa~d) : We ordinarily do both and then it is read three times from the.Chair when it comes up. MR. ROBERTS: MR.

CHAIRMAN: Our finance procedure is passing strange. Motion 3. We are discussing the resolution pertaining to The Income Tax Act, Bill No. 5. RESOLUTION "That it is expedient to bring in a measure to amend The Income Tax Act. 3399

May 4, 1984 Tape No. 1298 NM - 2 MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : DR. COLLINS: The hon. Minister of Finance. Mr. Chairman, the budget also ·contained another great forward thrust in terms of the corporate income tax rates and,very briefly, what we have done, we have sought to encourage business activity in the Province which to a very large extent is in the small business segment of the business sector. There are many, many more small businesses in the Province than there are large businesses.

There are many, many more people employed with small businesses even if you take such large operations as paper mills and so on and so forth. And we felt that we would try to give a signal but also probably even some actual encouragements to the small business sector by reducing the corporate income tax rate which they pay. Now I am sure that the criticism can be raised, well~many businesses are not profitable therefore this is not going to help them. That may be so in particularly bad times.

But hope~ully times will improve and even the small businesses which are not now profitable, and therefore could not conceivably benefit from a reduced tax rate if they are not paying any taxes, but hopefully these small businesses will become profitable and they will get some benefit from this reduction. The rate now will be 10 per cent as opposed to 12 per cent, and that puts us very much in line with other provinces.

As a matter of fact 1the information I have is that there are only three provinces which will be less than that, New Brunswick has a 9 per cent rate, Alberta 1of course,is always a bit of a standout in this regard, they only have a 3400

May 4, 1984 Tape No . 1298 NM - 3 DR . COLLINS : 5 per cent rate, and BC has an 8 per cent rate. But all the others, with the exception of Quebec - I am afraid I do not have any information on Quebec MR. ROBERTS: DR. COLLINS: tax . MR . ROBERTS: collect their own tax. They collect separately. Well , they collect their own The s~e as Alberta, they DR. COLLINS: They do now, yes, in the corporate tax area. But all the others, 3401

May 4, 1984, Tape 1299, Page 1 -- apb DR. COLLINS: P.E.I. and Nova Scotia, Ontario, with the exception that they are having a tax holiday in Ontario. MR. ROBERTS: coming up there. DR. COLLINS: holiday. MR. ROBERTS: election. DR. COLLINS: There is an election But it is a time-limited Until the day after the But if we discount that, they have a 10 per cent rate, Manitoba has a 10 per cent rate, Saskatchewan has a 10 per cent rate.

So our small business corporate tax rate will be in line with the majority of Canadian provinces now,whereas previously we were a bit out of line, we were 12 per cent, we were the only province which was at 12 per cent. So, Mr. Chaimen, I think that this is a positive move. I think that it will help to encourage an air of confidence in the business sector, which is very highly desirable. The budget also contained other measures to do the same thing, both from a capital expenditure point of view to help out economic activity, and also certain grants and so on, particularly through the Department of Development.

All these together, I think, will enhance a sense of confidence so I would commend this move to the Committee and I move the resolution. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN(McNicholas): The hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, I think it should be noted for the record that the member for Conception Bay South, I have no doubt it is a harbinger of things to come, is playing John The Baptist, but if he 3402

May 4, 1984, Tape 1299, Page 2 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: gets asked to a dance he should be 'very careful. There he is sitting in a seat that is, of course, always assigned to a minister, and I think we should note that with pleasure. It would not be appropriate,in a procedural sense only 1to move a resolution putting the House as solidly on record as saying that the member for Conception Bay South(Mr.Butt) ought to have been in Cabinet a long time ago, that if talent and loyalty and judgement and diligence were a reward, he would indeed have been in the seats of the mighty.

But, of course, as we all know, that is not the case, he is not, and when he looks around we see that talent and diligence are not rewarded, are not a prerequisite for being in the Cabinet. So I say to my han. friend thatihope he makes it into the seats of the m~ghty, that he rises from his present high eminence to even higher eminence of being the honourable, and I wish him joy. But I understant earlier, Sir, he was down on the eighth floor trying out the seats around the Cabinet table, I have no doubt he has one picked out,as well, down there. MR. PATTERSON: draft him for education. MR.

ROBERTS: The teachers are going to Well, now, I say to my friend from Placentia district(Mr. Patterson), it may well be the teachers ·are going to try to draft my friend from Conception Bay South for something. I understand they want him to be the guest of honour at a public function and the NTA are supplying the tomatoes for the function. It is like the fellow who did not want to admit - he had to fill out a pedigree for some reason or another - that one of his ancestors had been hanged for sheep stealing. 3403

May 4, 1984, Tape 1299, Page 3 -- apb f.1R. ROBERTS: I think most of us, if that had been the case, would have been quite proud of the notoriety , but he put down that his father had been kil'led by an accident while attending a public function when the platform collapsed, a literally truthful statement. Mr . Chairman, the minister, for once, is correct when he says that this move which he asks the Committee to endorse is a wise one, and we on this side are prepared to lend our overwhelming support to it. It should be noted that there are eleven, counting Your Honour, eleven members in the House, which shows the 3404

May 4,1984 Tape No. 1300 ah-1 MR. ROBERTS: enthusiasm that is gripping the people of this Province at the progressive nature of this government's legislative programme. There was a meeting last night in Northeast Crouse in my constituency to commend the government. Unfortunately there was nobody there because there is nobody living in Northeast ~rouse ,but the meeting went ahead.The fact is that attendance in the House to~ay is not so overwhelming, but I know though that those who are not with us physically are with us in spirit, some in spirits, I have no doubt,as well. Mr.

Chairman, the only problem with this bill is one which grows out of the economic situation. All this bill does is reduce the corporate tax that is collected; at least it is payable and we assume it is collected and if it is not there is trouble~ It reduces it from the twelve points of corporate income which was formerly the case to the ten points wh~ch is now to be the case. And , of course, on top of that there is a federal corporate tax.

It should not be thought by anybody that a corporation taxable in Newfoundland has to pay only 10 per cent R 12, as the case may be , of its net corporate income, after allowable expenses are taken off, only has to pay 10 or 12 per cent to the tax collectors, to the Pharisees, the modern-day Pharisees. In fact, of course,there is a federal corporate tax which is payable on top of that.

And to confuse the thing further 1 the 10 per cent of the corporate income,if you have to pay,Your Honour, is 10 per cent of your corporate income.Whereas when we come to look at the provincial income tax it is a percentage of the federal income tax. This is 3405

May 4,1984 Tape No. 1300 ah-2 MR.ROBERTS: not. This 10 per cent here is 10 per cent of the corporate income. So this will benefit any taxable corporation in Newfoundland that has taxable income. And I have no doubt there is a number, perhaps a large number, but and this is the important but, there ~re not as many as there should be.

Business in Newfoundland has paid a very dear price these last two or three years for not only the incompetence of the administration economically, theyare not entirely responsible , and I would not pretend they are, for the economic downturn in the Province andthroughout Canada, the Government of Canada is certainly responsible in some measure 1 and a large part of it is beyond the control of any administration,be it here, be it in Ottawa or be it wherever. But we have seen a great deal of economic incompetence on the part of this government and it shows.

My friend from Gander(Mrs Newhook) ,before she entered this type of elected politics, but while she served in elected politics as the mayor of Gande~ elected-what? -twice,as I recall it. MRS NEWHOOK: MR.ROBERTS: Four and a half years. Four and a half years but elected twice as mayor of Gander? MRS NEWHOOK: MR. ROBERTS: MRS NEWHOOK: Only once. Only once? For an extended period. MR. ROBERTS: Well, in any event she was elected by her fellow citizens in Gander and they were glad to extend her and glad to send her in here to the House as they have on two occasions. But, Mr.

Chairman, the lady 1 before she became a member of the House and a minister and devoted her full time to that 1ran a business in Gander, a 3406

May 4, 1984 Tape 1301 EC - l MR. ROBERTS: very successful business, which I would think is the epitome of a small business. They may have done a very large volume, may have made very large profits; for the honourable lady's sake, I hope so. MR. TULK: The best automobile parts person in the Province. MR. ROBERTS: I second what my friend from Fogo says, the best automobile parts dealer in the Province. MR. TULK: She could make a Ford out of a Chrysler and a Chev. MR. ROBERTS: She could nake a Ford out of a Chrysler and a Chev? ·;v11y, then, can she not make a success of this government's municipal policy? MR.

TULK: what happens here. MR. CAR'rER: Well, I think it is because of Pure dirt! MR. ROBERTS: Speaking of pure dirt, in comes the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter). I am here praising the lady from Gander (Mrs. Newhook), and deservedly praising her. She deserves it, she merits it, she has earned it and she is worthy of it, and what do I get? I get the gentleman from St. John's North advertising himself by saying, 'Pure dirt'! Never was there a man so given to 'self­ advertisement as the gentleman from St.

John's North and never; to paraphrase Churchill, has so much been said by one man about so little, as what the han. gentleman from St. John's North says about himself. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. TULK: Even Ray Baird laughs at that! MR. ROBERTS: I say to my friend from Fogo (Mr. Tulk), the member for Humber West (Mr. Baird) has a 3407

May 4, 1984 Tape 1301 EC - 2 MR. ROBERTS: very good sense of humour. He is a little twisted at times in his political thinking but that is neither here nor there. MR. BAIRD: It is the subject I am trying to focus on. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, the hon. gentleman looks, I do not know what he focuses on, but knowing some of his habits, I doubt if he is focusing very much most of the time! SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. CARTER: question? MR. ROBERTS: if ~y friend has one. MR. TULK: MR. CARTER: Hear, hear! Would the member permit a I would gladly permit a question Oh, there he goes!

The question I have for him is, since he is so rarely in this House, why is his attendance so regular these last couple of days? Because he has been most notable for his absence throughout this session and when he does come, he does not come in until quite late in the day. But now, not only has he been in every day for the last couple of days,but he has been in all day and, furthermore, he has been in the Chamber all during that time. I think this is remarkable and certainly deserving of comment. MR. BAIRD: A chamber is a good place for him. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, I want to thank my hen. friend.

He is the only one I know who believes that being a member of the House means you have to sit in the House but, of course, that is all he has ever done. I want to thank him, and I tell him the reason I have been here so much this week is the thought that he will be here, and it is Springtime. 'Spring is here, the grass 3 L~ 0 8

.. May 4, 1984 Tape 1301 EC - 3 MR . ROBERTS: is riz/I wonder lvhere \John·. Carter is? • - you know, that is the reason why. MR. TULK: It is not time to sow savory! SOME HON. M;EMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: He is irresistible! Obviously, as my friend from Fogo rei!Iinds me, it is not time to sow savory yet. In fact, the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) has broadened his horizons - MR. TULK: Oh? MR. ROBERTS: - he is now into sweet basil, thyme, he is a very herbaceous fellow! He.is an herbivore! He is herhivorous!

I hope the ladies in Hansard are able to tangle with that one, I would not want to have to! Mr. Chairman, now that we have disposed of the member for St. John's North, the one we call' Savory John,' let me come bac){. briefly to the whole point of the re.solution. The problem is that too many small businesses in Newfoundland - and my friend from Gander (Mrs. Newhook) would have to concur with this - are not making any taxable income at all, and if they are making any taxable income , they are not making enough even to generate the cash flows that would enable them to carry on. 3409

May 4, 1984 Tape No. 1302 MJ- l MR. ROBERTS: Business after business in this Province has experienced serious financial problems. In fact 1 it is all but impossible to find more than a handful of businesses in Newfoundland ,. the small businesses which,as the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) rightly says are themotor of economy, it is hard to find any or more then a handful that are in good financial shaper That is partially a matter of the taxable .income they generate but also, as more and more people are coming to realize 1 it is a matter of cash flow.

You have got to have enough cash coming in to meet the bills. If you are the government it is simple~ You whistle downstairs to the Bank of Montreal and you get a further loan, I do not even know what the government's line of credit is now-$20 million, $30 million, $40 million?

But a small businessmen 1 comes Friday,or comes Friday week and he has got to meet his oayroll 1or the fifteenth of the month he has got to send in his gasoline tax 1or the twentieth of the month send in his RST,or whatever day the federal withholding taxes are due,or his suppliers are expecting some money in return for their supplies or whatever. Now he has got to make sure he has enough cash on hand to cover the bills, to cover the cheques 1and the problem with this measure, the problem with all of these meas~res is that they do not address the real issue. Now the federal government have made a number - MR.

CHAIRMAN (McNicholas): Order, please! The hon. the member's time has elapsed. MR. ROBERTS: Well 1then I will sit down and I ~..rill carry on again in a minute or two. SOHE HON. MEJ.ffiERS : HR. CHAIRHAN: SOME HON. :!-~..EMBERS: MR. CHAIRHAN: By leave. Does the member have leave? By leave. The member has leave to continue. 34 ., 0

Mp.y 5, 1984 Tape No. 1302 MJ - 2 MR. ROBERTS: I take it I have overwhelmed them with my eloquence and by the force of the arg~~ent, and the · fact that nobody over there is more than comatose at this hour of the day and therefore does not want to speak. Thank vou, ~r. Chairman. MR. BAIRD: MR. ROBERTS: John Carter did not take it a'11ay. John Carter did not take anything: V'7hat dir'l. he T!Ct take away, I say to the hon. member? MR. BAIRD: Leave: MR. ROBERTS : Well 1 if my hon. friend from St. John's North (Mr. Carter) wishes to speak I can only carry on by leave of the House, Mr. Chairman. SOME HO~.

MEMBERS: By leave. MR. CHAIRMAN (McNicholas) MR. ROBERTS: The member has leave to continue. Thank you. Now, Hr. Chairman, the federal government have made some moves which have helped small business • The. best of them, I think, is the small business development bond it is called, which is a means whereby you, as a borrower, can actually - I do not know if Your Honour is a borrower or not - MR. CALLA..~: No, not likely. MR. ROBERTS: - Your Honour is running a professional practise. I am with my friend from Bellevue (Mr.

Callan) 1 I think His Honour is more likely on the right side of the bank, the bank manager says, 'Sir' to him. To get along with these bank managers you are either like my , friend from St. John's Centre (Dr. McNicholas),they say 'Sir' to you because you lend them money, because you have got a healthy credit balance, you can lend them money;or you owe them so very much that they have got to be nice to you because as Keynes said, 'If a man owes his bank 1,000 pounds and cannot pay it1 then that man has a problem. But if a man owes 3411

May 4, 1984 Tape No. 1302 MJ - 3 MR. ROBERTS: his bankers 1 million pounds and cannot pay it,then the banker has the problem.' But I am sure my · friend from St. John's Centre (Dr. Collins) knows whereof I speak. He may not need a small business development bond,but if he should decide to venture into mak1ng widgets or whatever,then he may want to look at them because they do address the cash flow issue. The problem, Mr.

Chairman, with this-legislation,or all of the government's programmes 1 or the few t.here are in the budget that address this 1and many other programmes is they do not address the cash flow issue. Having said that,I will simply make one other comment, that anybody who wonders why you have got to have four CAs, three lawyers and possibly devine inspiration to calculate your income tax correctly might want to read this.

I will just read the first part of what we are being asked to introduced - and I do not blame the draftsmen, for once I think the draftsmen have done the best they can with a frightfully incomprehensible situation - "Notwithstand subsection ( 1) " - no'" that really is something that a lawyer really perks up at, in other words nothwithstanding all of the above here is what happens - "Nothwithstanding subsection (1) , when in a taxation year a corporation is eligible for a deduction under

section 125 of the Federal Act" - by term of definition - "the tax payable by that corporat.ion under this Act for a taxation year is equal to the aggregate of (

a) ten per cent of an amount calculated by allocating to the province, on the same basis as set out in the regulations referred to in paragraph (

a) of subsection (4) of

section 124 of the -Federal Act"- pause-" that is the least of the amounts calculated under paragraphs (

a) to (

d) of subsection (1) of

section 125 of the Federal Act" - pause - " and allowed for the purposes of subsection (1) of

section 125 of 3412

May 4, 1984 Tape No. 1302 MJ - 4 MR. ROBERTS: the Federal Act; and" and then it goes on from there. You know, really we have come to the point in Canada where tax legislation is utterl ~ 3413

May 4, 1984 Tape No. 1303 SD - 1 MR. ROBERTS: incomprehensible. I will take advantage of the opportunity simply to say that 1 while we got to have tax legislation and while it has got to be precise 1 there is surely more and more to be said for moving to the concept of the flat tax rates or the single tax rates, I am not advocating the Henry George single tax philosophy of a century ago, I do not think that works.

This kind of incomprehensible gibberish, which is necessary as the law now stands , surely the time is coming, or has come 1 maybe has · long come , when we should replace it by far simplier legislation which I think would also be far more equitable. We nave all got to pay taxes, we have all got to pay a tax whicn,T think is generally agreed, is a percentage of our income. That seems to be one of the universal taxes · and is widely accepted as being a method of raising the money we need to fund the activities we want to do as a society through the government.

But, by the name of all that is holy 1 do we have to do it in, I do now know what, 3,000 pages of tax acts - Ther~ are several- and regulations utterly incomprehensible? I think, in fact, more and more accountants, CAs, the guys who specialize in this, the lawyers who specialize in it, are coming to realize that it is beyond the wit of anybody and it more a matter of good luck than good management now, Your Honour, if anybody in Canada pays the tax that is lawfully due from the legislation • I do not think anybody any longer can understand the legislation.

Or if there are people who are close to it ,the rates they have to charge for their services - $300 or $400 an hour for a man •·s or woman •·s time - are far beyond the reach of anybody. So it is just a matter of luck. I do not speak to anybody trying to cheat, there are people who are trying honestly and honourably to pay the taxes that are due from them, but it is only a matter of luck whether they are getting too much or too little. 3 4 11*

May 4, 19.84 Tape No. 1303 SD - 2 MR. ROBERTS': I recall a couple of weeks ago reading in the Toronto Globe and Mail, which is an admirable paper, of cours ·e, that they had taken a hypothetical tax ·With a fairly · simple set of income and expense deductions and they had g.:j:ven th .e facts to, r 'think, seven separate accounting firms· and tax servic 'S, H & R Block and that type of service,and to the National Revenue people,and they got eight different answers. I mean, you know, where do you turn? And I' think the tax guys· were high on some and low · on others.

You know, literally nobody understood what was going on. And this legislation is · just but anoth .er example of it. You would have to :Oe a Philadelphia lawyer '·s cell mate to understand this kind of stuff. I will take the minister ''s word that it is reducing the ta x from 12 per cent to 10 per cent and on that oasis I am prepared to supRort it, Sir. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN CMcNicholasl.: The hon .. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, the hon. Minister of Finance (Pr.

Collins} is downstairs at a meeting 1 so I would like to reply very briefly to what the hon. gentleman has said on behalf of the Min ister of Finance. I do not think really it requires or the hon. gentleman intended really his comments to be answered in de:Oate. He made certain musings about his impress ·ion of the b.i:ll 1 h.is impress ·ion of small business and all of 'that. I think perhaps· we can almost take th.at as his opinion. I think the salient fact anout this · bill is that what, it does i•t reduces the tax on small bus.i:nesses from 12 per cent to 10 per cent.

It is going to mean a tax reduction of approximately $1,600 ,. 000 during this coming year. It is an initiative that has been taken by this government 1 along wi·th th .e removal of the retail sales tax on business · equipment 1 to see what this government could do to 3415

May 4, 19 _84 Tape No. 1303 so - 3 MR. MARSHALL: alter and nourish the operations of small businesses in this · Province and to do what it could to foster economic activity 3416

May 4, 1984 Tape 1304 PK - 1 MR. MARSHALL: and give it some stimulus. We would wish that the tax could be, Mr. Chairman, even lower than that, ultimately down to the national average as we would wish all of our taxes would be down lower. The han. member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) made some reference to the probla~s with respect to small businesses here~ they are no different than the problems experienced in most parts of Canada.

Obviously the plight of small business and business in general would be much better in this Province if we had control of our resources, but I will not get into a long dissertation of that either. But the fact of the matter is that .:this bill represents the carrying through by the Minister of Finance (Dr. ~ollins) of his promise in the Budget Speech . It represents . implementation of the policy of this government to do the best that it can with the meager resources it has available to give some stimulation to business activity in this Province. And it is one, Mr. Chairman, that we are quite proud of .

I mean,the han. gentleman can get into all of the semantics he likes about the wording -and what have you 1 but he knows,as well as I do and every member does 1that taxation bills are of a nature that they have to be complex and they have to be complicated for reasons of statutory

interpretation and judicial

interpretation to be assured that there can be no loopholes in them. But the bottom line of this is that it reduces,as I say 1the small business tax by 2 per cent, a saving of $1.6 million per year. It is a stimulation to small business in.this Province which this government 1very hard hit by events that should be patently aware to everybody in the 3417

May 4, 1984 Tape 1304 PK - 2 MR. ROBERTS: Province with respect to the economic problems that we had and our inability to get control of our resources,be it the fishery, be it the offshore, or be it 1 certainly,as very vividly before us now hydro notwithstanding all of this ,this government has moved to stimulate small business and it is a measure, Mr. Chairman, that we are proud of. I move that the resolution now be read. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) ~ MR. CALLAN: The hon. member for Bellevue. Mr. Chairman, I wanted to have a few words on this.

Of course, we support the bill, and we support this government in anything that it does in the way of reducing taxes whether it be to small businesses or big businesses or small people or big people, rich or poor. And, of course, the corporate income tax rate for small business, as I said, should be reduced. And we hope that the day is not that far away when it can be reduced by not 2 per cent 1 from 12 per cent down to 10 per cent, but down from,say 110 per cent down to 5 per cent.

But,of course, governments have to get their money from somewhere to pay their housekeeping bills and all the other bills, all the money that it takes to run a province, to pay the education bills and the health bills and the social services and to provide the water and sewer and the roads and so on that everybody in the Province wants and deserves. But, Mr. Chairman, in talking about small businesses 1 3418

May 4, 1984 Tape 1305 NM - 1 MR. CALLAN: from time to time, and this might not be a very appropriate time to do so,but I notice the Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor) is not in his place, but perhaps he is nearyby, or somebody at least on the other side might hear what I am saying. From time to time when I get requests from some constituents who want to know what government programmes are on the go,"I am going to start up this small business.

Now what programmes are there on the go so that I can get some help from the government1' And, of course,I think we are all familiar with the federal programmes, the federal areas from which one can draw assistance, you know, the FBDB, the Federal Business Development Bank, and 1of course,the other federal programmes are fairly well known. But in the case of the provincial government, Mr. Chairman, we do not know.

The only time we hear of provincial proqrammes is probably around budget time when there is a clause in there, or a paragraph in the Budget Speech saying that the government will be providing an extra $500,000 this year to help industries concerned with the offshore to qet started and develop and so on. I am wondering is there any sort of a brochure anywhere in any department of government, in the Department of Development I would assume you would find it, outlining government programmes for people who want to develop and set up small businesses? I am not aware of one.

I do not know if the member for Conception Bay South (Mr. Butt) is aware of one. I am sure that he gets calls like I do 1 and letters. 3419

May 4, 1984 Tape No. 1305 NM - 2 MR. CALLAN: By the way, last night I bought a copy of Lifestyle. I had a copy but I gave it away and so I went and bought another last night, and Bob Cole was on the cover of it. But Bob Cole, before he became the national broadr~ster on Hockey Night in _Canada, headed up, under Premier Moores, the infamous or famous, whichever way you want to look at it, Action Group. And of course, you know, one of the first things our present Premier did when he took power was to pay off Bob Cole; he bought out his contract and paid him off and said, "The Action Group will be no more".

It was a bad bit of business. The former Premier Moores should never have set up the Action Group and so our present Premier washed his hands clean of the Action Group. Mr. Chairman, there probably is a better system, but when you look back on it, at least the gentleman from Arnold's Cove, or Hodge's Cove, or any­ where across my district, or across the Province, anybody who had got an idea after they went to bed some night - you know, they probably lay awake and they were thinking, "What can I do to start up a little business that can maintain myself and my family- knew who to phone".

There was easy access; all they had to do the next day was phone the Action Group and there was somebody 3420

May 4, 1984, Tape 1306, Page 1 -- apb MR. CALLAN: there on the other end who could say to him, Well, Sir, you are thinking about going into farming~ now the Department of Rural Development is the department that you should see.

Or, you are thinking about going into a small fish plant~ the FBDB will help you, I am sure, Again the Department of Rural Development, for example, if you borrow $30,000 from them, or $50,000 from them, the first $25,000 is a grant, is a gift, you do not have to pay it back because you are going into a business that is going to be creating jobs and it will have a multiplier effect and, of course, you are into primary producing. So there was somewhere where people could look and find out about things. I just saw a constituent a half hour ago, Mr.

Chairman, who was planning to build himself a new house. 'What government programmes are on the go', he asked, and, of course, he wanted to know about the $3,000 grant. I told him that was federal and the feds dropped that last Spring. And, by the way, it is interes~ing some of the calls that you get. I have had telephone calls from people over the last couple of years who referred to that grant in many different ways.

Actually, it is a $3,000 grant, or it was, it is not in effect now but it was, to assist new homebuilders and some people used the $3,000 to put in their cupboards, others used it to do their electric wiring, or to do their plumbing. But I have had people phone and say, 'There is a programme on the go, it is called a plumbing programme, a $3,000 plumbing programme'. And they have used so many different names, some of it was awful funny, but, of course, what they were referring to was this programme that could be used for whatever purpose 3 4 2 "1

May 4, 1984, Tape 1306, Page 2 -- apb .MR. CALLAN: they needed it. The main thing is they got it and could spend it in building their new homes. But, of course, as I explained to the gentleman just now, I said, 'That one is gone but there is a provincial one, a $1,500 provincial one for which you can qualify providing, of course, your home is not a big elaborate palace, a mansion, but is just a mode st house.' And, of course, he explained that he was only building a small house, 22 by 24 or somethin g, or 16 by 24 or whatever, so no doubt that gentleman will qualify.

He was talking about getting his old house repaired so he applied to Rural RRAP, where they have $5 ,000 forgive n. An excellent programme, the Rural RRAP programme . If your house repairs are less than $10,000, you qualify if the incomes of the husband and spouse combined are less than $13,000 a year . As an example, if you spend $8,000 on repairing 3422

Hay 4, 1984 Tape No. 1307 SD - 1 MR. CALLAN: your house, the first $5,000 is a total and absolute gift. So you get $8,000 worth of repairs_ and you only have to pay back $3,000 - an excellent programme. But this gentleman, of course, was not repairing his house, he was building a new house so he did not qualify anyway, but hopefully he will qualify under the provincial one. But as I said, Mr. Chairman, if it is not already done, may I make a suggestion?

Whatever provincial government programmes are available, since we do not have the Action Group any longer, why are they not consolidated or listed, or whatever, into some sort of a brochure? That is an excellent idea. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : MR. CALLAN: Order, please! The hon. member's time has elapsed. But anyway, Mr. Chairman, we support this bill. It reduces corporate income tax two percentage points and we support it. We wish it was more. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member for St.John's North. MR. CARTER Mr. Chairman, the member for Bellevue (Mr.

Callan) is suggesting that there is some government waste and extravagance and possibly misused resources. I would like to agree with him that some government money is wasted. And when I look across at the Opposition and I note that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) is paid a Cabinet minister's salary for very little work, and what work he does do is to bad-mouth the government and to try and undo and pull down all that the government attempts to do. We have a House Leader (Mr. Hodder), and I forget what his salary is but it is some thousands of dollars, but he is hardly ever here.

They have a Whip who has very little to do because they have very few people to whip, although they should all be whipped. And then they have vast offices with secretaries and free use of the telephone. So I would say 3423

May 4, 1984 Tape No. 1307 SD - 2 MR. CARTER: that there mus ·t be something · aor:>r-eaching $500,00 .0 to $1 million a year wasted on the Opposition. MR. TULK: A quorum 1 Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylwa ·rd i: MR. CHAIRMAN: agreed to continue. SOME HON. MEMBE 'RS: MR. CHAIRMAN: SOME HON. MEMBERS: A quorum call. Call in the members. QUORUM· CAT~JJ A quorum is present. Is it Agreed. The hon. member for St. John's North. Hear, hear. MR. CARTER: I was just speculating, Mr ..

Chairman, that there was possibly $5Cl0 .,000 but now in the. three minutes- that I was waiting while the quorum was called I think it is something in excess of $1 million wasted on the Opposition. Now I agree that they should have a small room to meet in, one of the smaller rooms over there would be more than adequate, and I agree that they should have a ty -pewriter and a secretary 1 but I' would say one would be certai ·nly adequate.

And I think they · should have a telephone 1 perhaps even two li ·nes 1 but I' do not think they · s·Itauld have free use of the telephone to ma .ke long distance calls, I think they should have a fi-xed, s·tated amount 1 say $1:0:0 .0. a year. That would be more than enough for them to call their friends. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh~ MR. CARTER: Perhaps we can give them $1,100 and they can call them all. And I say this partly with tongue in my cheek but I am being deadly earnest, Mr. Chairman. I think a lot of money. is 3 4 21~

May 4,1984 Tape No. 1308 ah-1 MR. CARTER: wasted on that lot over there. I really do. It harks back to the time when there were seventeen or eighteen but since then their numbers have been reduced. This is our fault, but it is to our credit too I suppose. MR.BAIRD: MR.CARTER: Snow White and the seven dwarfs. Obviously they are not doing their job and I think it is a scandalous misuse of public funds. That is the bottom line.And I would hope that the government spokesman when he gets up to speak on this bill will address this point and see if there cannot be some way that this large amount ~f money can be saved.

So I would propose, quite seriously, that the Opposition vote be looked at and looked at two or three times with a view to reducing it to an appropriate size. Mr.TULK: Mr. Chairman. MR.CHAIRMAN (Aylward): The han. member for Fogo. Mr. TULK: Mr. Chairman, in speaking to this bill,as the other people have said, we on this side agree with the bill. It is one of the few measures that the government has put in place that we think is a move in the right direction. I would like, if I could, to start of by saying to the member for St.

John's North (Mr.Carter) he is humorous, somewhat humorous and I have noted some other change in him. His mind is opening up, he is starting to look not like the bigot that he has always looked like. He would allow us at least to exist and that is not the way the member for St. John's North has been thinking in the past. So I must congratulate him. He is starting to look like an open-minded individual, I guess · he is starting to think. There is need for an Opposition and there is need for some 3425

May 4,1984 Tape No. 1308 ah-2 MR.TULK: opposition to the government in this Province. So his former bigotry has changed and it is great to see. Mr. Chairman, as I said, we support this bill because it is a move in the right direction. It will not solve, as the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr.Roberts) has said,and the member for Bellevue (Mr.Callan) has said, it certainly will not solve all of the problems that are in the economy of this Province. But it is a move, it is a sort of stimulus, some sort of stimulus, a very minor sort of stimulus, but it is a stimulus to get the economy on the road. Mr.

Chairman, that is not half bad for this government, because if you look at the record of this government as to what they have been doing with the taxes, particularly in the past four years, it is not bad. This is a government which has put taxes on everything they can find in the Province to increase taxes on, rabbit licenses to skidoos, to school books. They took everything back that was ever given to the people of this Province to provide them with some sort of stimulus to indeed live in Newfoundland and work in Newfoundland and put business in Newfoundland.

We have seen this government, as I said, tax everything that there is. So it is a move, The government is to be encouraged, they are to be somewhat cheered, it ·should be a very weak cheer, but at least we should give them something to say that, yes,you have have moved, you have decreased the corporate income tax from 12 per cent of corporation income down to 10 per cent. So it is a great move on the part of the 3426

May 4,1984 Tape No. 1308 ah-3 MR.TULK: government. The member for Terra Nova (Mr. Greening) should be proud. I am sure he must be the new person on that side who has changed the mind of the government perhaps somewhat and encouraged them to start 3427

May 4, 1984 'rape 1309 EC - 1 MR. TULK: looking at things in a business light and, being a small businessman himself, I am sure he appreciates, at least, that the government has made a minor move in the right direction. Perhaps his investments might turn out to be profitable, which is more than can be said for a lot of other investments in this Province. So, Mr. Chairman, as I said, for a government that has taxed everything that it can lay its hands on, finally they are making a sort of good move and, of course, it is good to see the government give some people in the Province a break. But, Mr.

Chairman, what is needed, what the government should learn from this, is that this type of stimulus may indeed be -very necessary, and perhaps more of the same kind of thing is needed for the economic development of this Province, God knows the economic development of this Province has suffered tremendously. The government should keep thinking along these lines. They should have more of this kind of planning, more of this kind of thing, rather than the kind of confrontation that we have seen this government carry on in the Province with every individual, every union.

The latest little escapade was that of the member for Conception Bay South (~~. Butt) - and I understand I am getting all kinds of press time and I hope I am, because that is good - the member fer Conception Bay South, about whom the Premier refuses to answer whether indeed he is speaking as the government would speak, whether it is the government's policy as to what the member for Conception Bay South is saying about the teachers' unicn, the teaching profession - and if you want to call it the union you can go ahead, or the Teachers' Association 3428

--- -- May 4, 1984 Tape 1309 EC - 2 MR. TULK: and other unions in this Province. It is the kind of thing that is needed rather than the confrontation and the fighting that goes on between the government and every individual and every government in Canada. Mr. Chairman, we have no choice, as I said, but to ag~ee with this kind of move.

If you go back to the infamous day in November when the government - I forget the year; it was, I think, a couple of years ago - brought in the 12 per cent sales tax, we on this side of the House opposed that increase because we said what the government was doing was discouraging consumer spending rather than encouraging it. MR. WOODROW: How are we going to feed the poor of this Province? · MR.

TULK: To the newest member of the Cabinet, I hope, I would say there are two ways to help the poor in this Province, and those are to increase economic development, stimulate the economy by creating more·jobs, thus creating more income for the government. Make jobs available for our youth, for our unemployed people, thus creating new wealth for the economy. That is the Liberal way, and I would not expect the member, who I hope will be the newest addition to the Cabinet, to understand that. MR. WOODROW: You can say a lot when you are in the driver's seat. MR.

TULK: Well, I hope within the next couple of weeks to see the han. member in the driver's seat, holding down a Cabinet position 3429

May 4, 1984 Tape 1310 PK - 1 MR. TULK: in this Province. He deserves it. They should flick out some of the people that are there and put him in. He has been a good member, I am sure he will be a good minister. And I do not think, even though he was at one point going to be a candidate for the Liberal Party in Newfoundland, I think he has shown the Premier he has suffered long enough in the backbenches. Now that he has shown the Premier that he is a lqyal Tory, he should now be rewarded for his loyalty and his punishment should end and he sho.uld go in the Cabinet. I am sure he would be a good Cabinet member.

As I was saying, Mr. Chairman, when this kind of legislation is brought before the House the Liberal Party has no choice but to support it, because we believe that if you are going to stimulate the economy of Newfoundland then you have to take certain measures with tax decreases. And that is opposite from Tory and that is the way it should be. _ This bill that we have before us is a small liberal move, but I suppose if you could tell them that they are likely to take it away again, they are likely to increase the tax. Tories believe in increasing taxes. They believe in taxing the small businessman.

They believe in backing totally the huge corporations and that the small business should suffer. Now I suppose the member for Conception Bay South (Mr. Butt) will call me a Sociaiist. MR. BUTT: The gentleman running Ottawa is a friend of Peking. 3430

May 4, 1984 Tape 13l0 PK - 2 MR. TULK: Elliott Trudeau, are you? MR. BUTT: You are talking about Pierre The Prime Minister. MR. TULK: I want to say something to the member for Conception Bay South (Mr.

Butt),th,at I think a lot of people in Canada will realize in five years time 1 after tl:te Prime Minister is gone 1 and he retires, on June 17 1 there is no point in berating him at this point; he is a gentleman who is going out of o.ffice, and has served the office honourably, I want to say that to the hen. member for Conception Bay South tha .t in five years time 1 I believe this will be a fact of history, that Canadians as a whole will say and history will say that Pierre Elliott Trudeau was the best Prime Minister that Canada ever had. I want to say that to him.

And I hope one of us are arounu in five years time to see just exactly what we are saying. I think that will be the case. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): Order, please! The hon. member's time has elapsed. MR. TULK: Oh, Mr. Chairman. Motio .n, that the Committee report having passed a resolution and a bill consequent thereto, carried. MR. CHAIRMAN: Motion 5, Resolution dealing with 1 (rhe Raising of Loans by the Province. (Bill No. 26). 3431

May 4, 1984 Tape 1310 PK - 3 RESOLUTIO N A bill, "An Act To Authorize The Ra~sing Of Money By \iay Of Loan By The Province" . MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): The bon . President of the Council . MR. MARSHALL : Well, Mr. Chairman, on behalf of the Mini s ~er of Finance (Dr. Col lins) I want to introduee the Loan Bill. The Loan Bill is a bill that gives statutory authority to the amount. of borrowings that are required by the Province . I cannot cease to emphasize this , borrowings .. now come become the Legislature . The government is not allowed to borrow unless it has been approved by the Legislature .

And the purpose for this, of course, is to assure that the amount of borrowings is brought to public attention . I al so want to point out once again,even though it wa s ever so long ago, thank heavens, that in times gone by,when the hon . gentlemen were in government, one of the bones of contention was that any amount of money could be borrowed in th e Cabinet room . There was no limit . It could be all done by Order -in -Council 343 2

May 4, 1984 Tape 1311 NM - 1 MR. MARSHALL: It could be all done by Order- in-Council and that is,in fact,what was done and·was one of tl;le contributing factors to the madcap spending and borrowing that particularly occurred in the 1960s when, the hon. gentlemen there opposite were continually attempting to bribe the people of Newfoundland to keep themselves in power from borrowed money. But now we are required, as any democratic society should be, to bring before the Legislature the amount of the borrowings.

In the Finance Minister's budget it is provided that the total amount of the borrowings,on page 19 I believe it is­ give me an opportunity to dig it out here now. MR. TULK: Take your time, boy. There is lots of time yet. MR. MARSrlALL: We got all the time in the world. Yes, I know. And the hon. gentlemen there opposite - MR. TULK: Do you want to study the budget? MR. MARSHALL: No, I do not need to study the budget. We know the budget by heart. Here we go. Statement number one of the net borrowings, total budgetary requirements for this year, $206 million.

That is statement number one to the budget found immediately after the table of contents. MR. TULK: You do not have to be nasty. MR. MARSHALL: The hon. gentleman is not nasty. I mean, I find that the hon. gentlemen, by the quality of the questions they ask from time to time, and the quality of the speeches that they make from time to time, really do need guidance and I am just trying to be helpful to the hon. gentlemen, that is all. Anyway,it is there, it is $206,327,500 that has to be borrowed this year, which 3433

May 4, 1984 Tape 1311 NM - 2 MR. MARSHALL: is a tremendous amount of money. That is the borrowing requirements of the Province. That is made up of some $32 million on current account, orwe have to borrow a certain amount on current account which in itself, Mr. Chairman, is a monumental achievement of this government. It has got to be remembered that Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, which are supposed to-be farther up the ladder than us economically,and certainly they are because they are much more favoured in Confederation than this Province is, that they have to borrow astronomical amounts on current account.

And this year the Province of Newfoundland, the Goverment of Newfoundland, is borrowing $32 million on current account and I challenge anyone to deny the fact that this is a monumental achievement wrought by the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins). As a matter of fact, this whole budget was a monumental achievement. So $32 million for the current account. As the Premier indicated when he spoke to the people in Newfoundland in connection with the wage freeze, I think that can be equated to our grocery account. We borrow $32 million for our groceries.

That is concerning to anybody when they have to borrow to meet current expenditures of that nature and we hope to remedy it in the future. Certainly a sure and secure and speedy remedy of this would be if we are able to get control of our resource base as other provinces did,we would not have to be borrowing that amount for current account. The fact that 3434

May 4, 1984, Tape 1312, Page 1 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: it is only $32 million, I submit, Mr. Chairman, it is a monumental achievement wrought by the Minister of Finance when you consider the economic condition of this Province, the legitimate demands of the general public, and the amount of revenue that is available to satisfy these demands. So that is $32 million; $174 million represents the amount of borrowings that is needed on capital account and, of course, capital account are the fixed expenditures that have to be made from time to time by the government in connection with road building.

And,as I indicated the other day, the Minister of Transportation(Mr. Dawe) has a very, very ambitious programme, a beneficial programme, an opulent programme when you consider our resources, of road building and road reconstruction in the Province. Part of that is in that. Also, Mr. Chairman, included in .that are the large expenditures on capital account being made by this Province with respect to hospital construction; the completion of the Clarenville hospital, the commencement of the hospital at Salt Pond on the Burin Peninsula, and the beginning of the extension to the Central Newfoundland Hospital. MR.

SIMMS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: There are other expenditures and they are there for the hon.gentlemen to see. I do them perhaps a credit by saying, 'I wonder do the hon. gentlemen know the difference between current and captial account?' Because if they do, there is no need for me to explain it. MR. TULK: I can tell you in ten ways. MR. MARSHALL: So you do know the difference between current and capital account. Capital account are fixed expenditures, like on roads and hospitals, investments, you know. 3435

May 4, 1984, Tape 1312, Page 2 -- apb MR. TULK: Oh! MR. MARSHALL: So we are making an investment in Newfoundland this year of $174 million. We are borrowing $174 million on capital account and, as I say, that is another monumental achievement of the Minister of Finance(Dr. Collins). When you consider the resource base of this Province and what we have, when you consider the roads programme, the hospital construction programme, and all the meriad other programmes that have been set forth in the Budget Speech, it is a real monumental achievement of the minister. So the total borrowings then, Mr.

Chairman, amount, as I say again, on current and capital, to $206 million. Taken from that are Canada Pension Plan borrowings. You do not need to have authorization for Canada Pension Plan borrowings, you only need it for the general private borrowings. So that brings you down to what you would normally need, which would be $154 million. There is no drop-balance, as it were, for borrowings last year. At presently there is authorized and unborrowed, I am advised, some $19·million, but that will be merged in this bill anyway.

So we need $154 million, if han. gentlemen will follow me, and the amount that we are borrowing, the amount that is authorized here is $225 million. Now, why the difference between the $150 million and the $225 million? The difference is approximately $75 million and that is, Mr.

Chairman, to enable there to be a flexibility given to the government toward the end of the year, if it is necessary, when the financial markets of the world show what the financial people call a window, where you can perhaps get borrowings at a lower interest rate than it is projected that you will be able to get in the ensuing year, and that, Mr.Chairman, gives this government the latitude to be 3436

May 4, 1984, Tape 13~2, Page 3 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: abl.e to borrow at the more favoured interest rate. ~So it is a cushion there. Some people question them. but the fact of the matter is, that no monies can be expended except in accordance with the Financial Administration Act, and we advis·e the House that the purpose of this cushion is there to enable the government to have the latitude and the flexi:Cility to be able to take advantage of any situations, any favourable market conditions that will enable us to borrow at a more favoured rate than it is predicted we might obtain other­ wise. 3437

May 4, 1984 Tape No. 1313 SD - 1 MR. MARSHALL: So, ~1r. Chairr.1an, I think that is a full and complete explanation of the bill, the reason for the borrowings. I would advise hon. gentlemen that they ought not get up and start talking about it. If they want to they can. They will avoid it probably with a great deal u£ embarrassment, really. The reasons for the borrowings and the borrowings on capital account are there in the budget for the han. gentlemen to see - the list of capital borrowings and the purposes for it.

I think the largest one is, if my memory serves me correctly - it is not imrediately available here n01r, but if lll'..! memory serves me correctly I think the largest amount provided for - oh, here are the details · of capital expenditures,on the back. But th