ISSN 0542-5492 Fifth Session - Thirty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 30 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Harry E. Graham Speaker VOL. XXIX No. 698 -8:00 p.m., THURSDA V, 30 APRIL, 1981 Office of the Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMB�Y Thirty - First Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, A. R. (Pete) ANDERSON,Bob BANMAN, Hon. Robert (Bob) BARROW, Tom BLAKE, David BOSTROM, Harvey BOYCE, J. R. (Bud) BROWN, Arnold CHERNIACK, Q.C., Saul CORRIN, Brian COSENS, Hon. Keith A. COWAN, Jay CRAIK, Hon. Donald W. DESJARDINS, Laurent L. DOERN, Russell DOMINO, Len DOWNEY, Hon. Jim DRIEDGER, Albert EINARSON, Henry J. ENNS, Hon. Harry J. EVANS, Leonard S. FERGUSON, James R. FILMON, Hon. Gary FOX, Peter GALBRAITH, Jim GOURLAY,Hon. Doug GRAHAM, Hon. Harry E.

GREEN, Q.C., Sidney HANUSCHAK,Ben HYDE, Lloyd G. JENKINS, William JOHNSTON, Hon. J. Frank JORGENSON, Hon. Warner H. KOVNATS,Abe LYON, Hon. Sterling R. MacMASTER,H on. Ken MALINOWSKI, Donald McBRYDE, Ronald McGILL, Hon. Edward McGREGOR, Morris McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., Hon. Gerald W. J. MILLER, Saul A. MINAKER, Hon. George ORCHARD, Hon. Donald PARASIUK, Wilson PAWLEY, Q.C., Howard PRICE, Hon. Norma RANSOM, Hon. Brian SCHROEDER, Vie SHERMAN, Hon. L. R. (Bud) STEEN, Warren URUSKI, Billie USKIW, Samuel WALDING, D. James WESTBURY, June WILSON, Robert G. Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield La Verendrye Flin Flon Minnedosa Rupertsland Winnipeg Centre Rhineland St. Johns Wellington Gimli Churchill Aiel St. Boniface Elm wood St. Matthews Arthur Emerson Rock Lake Lakeside Brandon East Gladstone River Heights Kildonan Dauphin Swan River Birtle-Russell lnkster Burrows Portage la Prairie Logan Sturgeon Creek Morris Radisson Charleswood Thompson Point Douglas The Pas Brandon West Virden Roblin Os borne Seven Oaks St. James Pembina Transcona Selkirk Assiniboia Souris-Killarney Rossmere Fort Garry Crescentwood St. George Lac du Bonnet St.

Vital Fort Rouge Wolseley Party NDP PC PC NDP PC NDP Prog. PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC PC Prog. Prog. PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP NDP Lib lnd

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 30 April, 1981 Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPL V SUPPL V - NORTHERN AFFAIRS MR. CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor (Virden): Call the Com mittee to order of Northern Affairs - 1( b) - the Member for Churchill. MR.

JAY COWAN: Yes, when we broke earlier in the afternoon for the pur pose of going to Private Mem bers' Hour, we were discussing South Ind ian Lake and I'd asked the Minister just previously if he would care to relate some background in respect to the preparation of the site for the detention centre in the communi ty and we had been sidetracked, very briefly at that time onto a different subject, but I would app reciate now if the Minister would take an opportunity to explain exactly how that site was chosen and developed . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON. DOUG GOURLAV (Swan River): Well, Mr.

Chairman, as far as I can recall on information that's been provided to me, the detention centre which was an Atco trailer-type facility, was brought in last summer and placed on a lot that had been chosen by the community. Materials had been ordered for the water and sewage hookup and the material did not arrive to South In dian Lake until late in the summer or perhaps early fall.

The work was going to be undertaken by the department, however it became quite late, the frost was already in the ground and it was decided to postpone the work until this summer and part of the money that was budgeted for that work was then transferred to speedup the pur chase of the sewage pump-out truck, so that it could be delivered over the winter roads this past season. The work for the hookup of the detention unit has now been scheduled to take place this summer with the local community doing the actual installation and hookup to the unit; that's where the detention centre is at the present time. MR.

COWAN: Has the communi ty been notified that they will be getting the contract as a community council for the hookup of the sewage and water facilities at the detention centre. MR. GOURLAV: The communi ty is aware that the work will be done locally. MR. COWAN: They are aware that they will be doing the work themselves? MR. GOURLAV: Right. MR. COW AN: Because the last time we were in the com muni ty there was some concern and some frustration in that the department, as the Minister says, was going to be und ertaking work and the communi ty itself had wanted to undertake the work.

I'm pleased to hear that the Minister has conceded to their wishes. I think their concerns were well voiced; I think they were legitimate concerns.

They indicate at the same time, when the y were trying to convince the government of the legitima cy of their request to do hookups thems elves that the RCMP brought in a trailer, and that the Federal Government or the RCMP gave that contract to the commun ity and that tha t trailer was hooked up very rapidly and very quickly and in fact much faster than was the other trailer and they used that as an example of how the commu nity, in many cases, could perform the work better and faster than could outside individuals.

I would ask the Minister for some comment on that, because I think notwithstanding the fact that the commu nity does now have the contract, that there will be other instances of a similar nature in the future; is the Minister indicating that it will be the policy of the department now to allow the community to unde rtake tha t sort of work right from the beginning rather than go th rough the difficult situation that the communi ty of South Indian Lake had to go through? MR.

GOURL AV: Well, the commu nity has been involved in many work activity projects for the commu nity such as gravel hauling and that type of work .

The situation with respect to the RCMP hookup, I un derstand, that's true, the commu nity there did the actual hookup, the RCMP had the necessary pipes available so the work could proceed and the community have indicated that they could also do the detention centre and I think this is one of the items that was discussed at the time of my visit into the communi ty last fall. lt was agreed that it was a wise move to shut down the installation of the sewer and water at that time because of the advancement of the winter season and that it would cause some problems this spring to tear up the ground after it was frozen so it was a joint decision with the commu nity council to defer the work and to have them perform the necessary installation this summer.

Of course we try to involve the communi ty locally to do as much work as they feel they can handle and are interested in doing. And personally I would like to encourage more of this and hope that we can see more of this being done with the local input. MR. COWAN: That's not the reading we are getting from the communi ty itself.

By that I mean they are not convinced that the Minister or the government or the department is actively seeking to involve the commu nity more in the work which is done in the commu nity and the Minister tells me that he has taken a different tract since his meeting with the commu nity council in South Indian Lake and he tells me that they convinced him at that time of the legitimacy and the approp riateness of their request, and for that reason they were provided with the contract. However at this time we still see the resignation, and that resignation is illustrated.

I'm not so certain that they would agree with the Minister that the picture is as rosy as he would like to paint this evening, but I say that only in passing. I do hope that 3211

Thursday, 30 April, 1981 the Minister is going to follow through with his stated intention of involving more and more communities in work of that kind which is done in the communi ty but the final test will be the record and the record will be how many communi ties In fact believe that they are being Involved to a significant extent, and only time will tell as to what will happen In the future, but I can assure the Minister at present that mo st commun ities, or a lot of communiti es, let me phrase it differ ently, do not feel tha t the y are being adequa tely involved In that type of work In their own community.

Earlier the Minister ran down a list of Items which were provided to the community of South Indian Lake and work which was undertaken; he mentioned the new school and the new store. He also mentioned major road upgrading and landscaping In the commun ity and water and sewer system. He said it was a sophis ticated water and sewer system, perhaps one of the most sophisticated In the north. I would ask him, were not all of those items part of the agreement, the townsite agreement, when it was decided to mo ve the town because of hydr o development in the area; is that not true? MR. GO URLAY: Mr.

Chairma n, as I mention ed earlier, we are ende avo uring to use local communi ties to do the work wherever possible, in many instances the communi ties do not have the expertise or the equipment to perform, but as I mentioned, wherever they do have this equipment, we try and involve them. And in the case of South Indian Lake I understand as well as hooking up the detention centre they will also be doing the water and sewer hookup to the hall there. Of course, this is under supervision of Northern Affairs personnel, but the work will be done by the local community.

With respect to the question of the school and other facilities, yes, this was part of the original agreement when the new loca tion was being established. MR. COWAN: So the Minister read off a long list to which the members of his government took great delight, and as an exam ple on how much his government was doing in the communit y of South Indian Lake. Now we find that all of those were in fact comm itted before his government took office, or were part of a general commitment to im prove the townsite.

The school was built, the store was built and in operation, the laundr omat is a negotiated settlement for the loss of a laundromat that was already in use, the landscaping was in fact part of a program that had been initiated as part of the agreement. I'm not certain that the major road upgrading was part of the agreement, which was the one item that I didn't mention, but I would suggest that in fact most of the items that the Minister mentioned, and most of the money that was spent were items that were already in the planning stage and the money was comm itted money. MR.

GOURLAY: Well, the main features that were part of the agreement were the store, and water and sewer facilities, and the school, nursing station, but many of the other items that I mentioned, the remedial work and road up grad ing, the water del ivery truck, the new fire truck, the new sewage pickup truck, they were not part of the original deal. 3212 MR. COWAN: If the Minister will refer back to Hansard when it is available, he will find that those items which he mentioned as part of the original negotiations were the items that I had mentioned.

I in fact had not mentioned the fire truck, the sewage pickup truck or the water del ivery truck as being part of the original program, or the major road upgrading. Perhaps, the major road upgrading, I am not certain, Hansard will tell.

But the fire truck is part of that program which the government is impl ementing throughout the north, I would imagine, in respect to up grading fire prote ction, and the Mem ber for Emerson, says that's a good program, and I am certain the Member for Emerson sat through the labour estima tes both this year and last year and sat through northern affairs estima tes last year where we agreed - when I say we, the New Democratic party agreed that this was an excellent program; that the fire protection program in the north is a program tha t is being, acc ording to our sources, fairly im plemented, adequa tely impl emented.

I'll go even beyond that; that it is indeed an excellent program that is serving its function and a very im portant function for northerners, and we have always been extremely sup portive of the government in their actions in respect to that particular program. - (Interjection)- Well the Member for Emerson says, when was that? If he would listen more than echo, perhaps he would be able to remember more than forget, but the fact is . . . Well now the Member for Rock Lake ... MR. CHAIRMAN: Commit tee, one member at a time; one speaker at one time. The Member for Churchill. MR.

COWAN: The Member for Rock Lake says that we were singing a different tune yesterday, and we were in fact criticizing the government yesterday, as we will be criticizing them tonight, but on the issue of fire protection we have always been extremely supportive of the government. I think the Minister will come to my defence here and say, if I'd ask him point blank, were we not suppor tive of your efforts last year under the item of fire protection when we discussed your estimates? MR. GOURLAY: That's true, Mr.

Chairman, and we do appreciate the comments from the members opposite giving us credit for this program because it ha s worked out very well. The commu nities thems elves are to be congratulated for the effort that they have put into the fire program; it is most encouraging to say the least; and also the emergenc y planning that is tied in similar to the fire program. Indeed the comments from the members opposite are appreciated; I think that it's definitely been a real boost to those northern communities that have been able to participate in this program. MR.

COWAN: Of course, we don't provide them hap haza rdly , we hope to see tha t pr ogram accelerated, but at least for certain we hope to see that program take even more and more communiti es in as time goes on so they all are provided with the type of fire protection service which is necessary, but that is in no way intended to take away from the effort of the government, the department, nor the residents of the communities over the past number

Thursday, 30 April, 1981 of years in putting together what I believe is a growing and an efficient fire protection system. Now having said that, let's get back to South Indian Lake. The fire truck in South Indian Lake then was not something that was provided to South Indian Lake on its own, it was something that was part of a general thrust of the government in order to ensure better fire protect ion capab ilities for northern commu nities.

So what we find when we go down the list is a numb er of items that were previously committed, a numb er of items which are part of other negotiations; a number of items which were fought tooth and nail for, such as a sewage pickup truck , or excuse me, the water del ivery truck, I believe it was, two years ago, three years ago. There was quite a controversy about that. I'm not certain whether the then Minister of Northern Affairs went in the community to settle that one.

But I'll tell you that the residents of South Indian Lake had to scream pretty loud in order to get that water del ivery truck and there was quite a bit of frustration and there was quite a bit of negotiations in respect to getting that truck, so I don't think it was a gift on the part of the government; if anything, I think that they were begrudgingly forced into providing that service. I don't think the Minister can deny that. So the picture that the Minister wants to paint as being as rosy as he did earlier, is not really all that credible a picture for the government. MR. GOURL AY: Mr.

Chairman, the community of South Ind ian Lake is not treated as a specia l community of the north; it's treated as a communi ty of the north, and in the case of the water truck, the community proceeded on their own and ordered it which ended up costing some $2,500 more than if the department had proceeded under the proper order of priority. MR. COWAN: Perhaps it would be an appropriate time to ask for the staff breakdown on this particular section, as to how it compa res with last year. MR. GOURLA Y: No change. MR.

COWAN: S6 the increase tha t we see of $15, 600 is inflationary; it's an inflationary increase for general increases then. MR. GOURLA Y: Under the MGA agreement. MR. COWAN: The Minister had indicated in the media, that the Northern Affairs Department would be conducting a survey of northern commun ities. I'm wondering if the Minister believes this would be the appropriate area to discuss that survey in more detail, or if there's an item in the line by line. MR. GOURL AY: Under 3(

b) that would be a proper place to discuss it. MR. COWAN: 3(

b) being Local Gov ernment Services? MR. GOURLA Y: Right. MR. COWAN: I bring these items up at this time and seek some direction on the part of the Chair in respect to where they would be most adequa tely add ressed in the line by line, but last year the Minister indicated that he would try to obtain for us a list of permanent full-time jobs that had been created as a result of Northlands activity and that he would break that list down in the following way; those jobs which were taken by southerners and those jobs which were taken by long-term residents of northern Manitoba.

I wo uld ask him at this juncture whether he has that list and is prepared to provide it to us; or if not, what area he would like to discuss that item on under the line by line. MR. GOURLA Y: That would be discussed under 4(

a) Agreements Management. I'm not sure that we have all the detail information that you refer to; if you could just run that by us again? MR. COWAN: Perhaps what I will do is find the appropriate

section of the Hansards last year, detail it out as to exactly what was promised and get back to the Minister on it, and by the time we get to 4(

a) which would be, I believe, the general Northlands Development Agreement discussion, we can proceed with the general dis cussion and the specific discussion at that time, if that's agreeable to the Minister. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Emerson. MR. ALBERT DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I firstly want to compliment you on being very fair, because it's very hard to get on in this commit tee in terms of speaking order. But be that as it may . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: I think the Chair has been very fair. I try to stay with a member until he's finished a sequence of qu estions without interference.

I think we had this out last year. -(I nterjection)- All right. Well then understand the Chair is trying to be fair. The Mem ber for Emerson. MR. DR IE DGER: I' ve got a little story, Mr . Chairman, I have a senior citizen back home that says if you want to really hur t somebody, get somebody upset, what you do, when you meet him in the morning, every day, you tell him, boy, are you looking poorly, are you looking sick, even if the man is totally healthy. And you meet him next morning, you do that again, and you get a few of your friends to do the same thing.

Eventually this fellow is going to start getting very concerned about how sick and how poorly he's looking, and if enough people do that, eventually he will be sick. What I'm trying to say, Mr. Chairman, is the fact that the mem bers that have been speaking from the Opposition, the critics of the Northern Affairs, have been using this kind of approa ch, and when I listened to the Member for Churchill yesterday, he indicated, he says, go out and listen to the people. Well, Mr. Chairman, they have the impr ession that none of us have ever been up north. I've spent a fair amount of time up north.

I'v e had the occasion to spend holidays up north, I've also had occasion to go up there for the Resources Minister, for the Co­ Operative Minister, to visit the various reserves, and the doom and gloom that they're spouting is not as dramatic as they indicate. What bothers me is that they go out and say, are you feeling well, you look poorly today. They go into 3213

Thursday, 30 April, 1981 the community and say, there must be something wrong, certainly there must be some problem that you have. This is exactly what the Mem ber for Churchill was indicating yesterday. Why, Mr. Minister, don't you go and listen? Well, he doesn't go and listen, he goes and promotes. Are you feeling well, you look poorly. That type of an approach. I'm a little concerned about that, because like I say, I've spent time up there, I've visited the various reserves, it is not half as dramatic as you put it on to be.

The other thing, for example, the Minister indicated he wanted to go after permanent type jobs. What has happened in the last little while, especially with the mining exploration, fishing and trapping has been one of the major financial supports in the north, they've never done better than they've done in the last years. Not because necess arily of government, but because of economic times. They've done welL And what we have here today, and the last few days, we've spent over a day on South Ind ian Lake. Mr.

Chairman, I ha ve 33 small communities, most of them that have problems with firefig hting, mo st of them ha ve problems with garbage, with sewer and water, these kind of things, we've spent almost a day talking about South Indian Lake, and toda y th e Minister ind icated all the programs of things that they have got, and it's nothing. The Member for Churchill gets the mike and he speaks for another two hours and says, you know, that is not half the thing yet I'll tell you, some of my communitie s get a portion of these things that they're getting in some of these communities up north.

I just want to try and get it in the right perspective. We're always saying, oh, the north is desolate and nothing's happening up there. A lot of things are happening up there; positive things, and if we look back ten, twenty years, what happened up north, and what happened in my area, I'll tell you something, I think we have to get it in the right perspective. Really we do. For example, I had the occasion to travel by train all the way up to Churchill, and I looked at the big white elephant monstrosity out there, serving a small amount of people.

I have 50,000 people in my constituency, every community is fighting for certain sports facilities, recreation facilities, certain services that are required; when I drive up to Churchill, I'm astounded. I'v e had the occasion to visit the various parks, Paint Lake, Wekusko Lake, the camping sites, I'm fighting with my Ministers and my government to try and get some facilities at Birch Point where, on an average fishing weekend you can count over a hundr ed boats fishing there, and what we have to do to get into the water, we have to take and push our boats by hand.

We pull off our pants and we take it with our trunks and we push the boats into the water. Mr. Chairman, you know the perspective is sort of out of line. The people in the north don't suffer half as much as the members here would like to indicate. The Member from Rupertsland indicates, oh, the doom and gloom type of thing. There's going to be 200 people emplo yed at Bissett, at San Antonio Mines there. I think the name will probably change. What I'm saying is many things are happening, and here they say, this government has done nothing, everything has gone down the tube.

The Member for Churchill has been promoting, for the last many hours when he has been debating the Estimates, you know, we should have ... he criticized the Minister for cancelling some of the make-work projects. Even if they cost money, let's do them. I'll tell you something, in my area, we'd appreciate them. I have a poor constituency, possibly as poor or poorer than the Member for Churchill has, or the Member for Rup erts land. I have partially an area tha t is agriculture, people get up, they work all kinds of hours, what have you. He says the people don't have work. Make work, this type of thing.

I'll tell you some thing, there's people from my area, if there is not work, they move up north, try and get on with the min es; there's people that have, Mr. Chairman, they've gone to Alberta, they've come back because things didn't look that rosy there any more in terms of work. All I'm trying to tell you, Mr. Chairman, and Mr. Minister, is the fact that, don't get despondent because a few members here talk doom and gloom up north all the time. That's out of perspective. When we talk of make-work projects up north, who's paying for it?

Some of my poor people out there that dig in the dirt, work hard, have very little income, there's nobody in this country or in this province that is starving. When we compare it to the rest of the world, we've living very affluently; I think governments of the day, irregardless of party, are working very seriously in terms of trying to provide better conditions all the time. But I get a little upset when they sit here hour for hour listening about, South Indian Lake, they got, all the various things that the Minister listed, and he says, but that is not enough.

Well, give it to one of my com muni ties because I have 33 of them, and the biggest one is smaller than South Indian Lake possibly. Let's put it on the right scale. Mr. Chairman, if the memb ers want to keep on talking doom and gloom, I intend to get up here and give my side of the story as welL Thank you very much. MR. CHAIRMAN: Realiz e, commit tee, th at the Chairman is at the mercy of this comm ittee; he doesn't really rule. With that, I'll call on the Member for Rup ertsla nd. MR. HARVEY BOSTROM: Mr.

Chairman, I can und erstand the memb er's concern for his 33 communities in his constituency which are having problems, because they are part of the problem in Mani toba; I think it's an exam ple of this government's failur e to do things for small communities, whether they be north or south. I can un derstand the member's concern for th ose particular communities because I think they're just as unhappy with this government as the communit ies up north are ... MR. DRIEDGER: Is Bissett unhappy? MR. BOSTROM: ... and there's quite good reason for that To get down to some specifics, Mr.

Chairman, and since the member seems to be interested in Bissett, I'd like to know from the Minister, because I did raise tha t the first day, I'd like to know what the department is doing with respect to that min ing 3214

Thursday, 30 April, 1981 development and what, if anything, they are planning to do in terms of assisting that community to cope with that development; that is to plan for it, to incorporate in their municipal services the necessary services for the incoming workers and industry, and also, Mr.

Chairman, what the Minister's department or any department that he is aware of will be doing, since I think Northern Affairs has the responsibility to co-ordinate these things; what the planners are doing in terms of Northern Affairs people and working with other departments to plan for the incorporation into this pr oject to the fu ll est extent pos sible the emplo yment of people who live in the area. I'd like to hear from the Minister before I comment further on it. MR. GO URL AY: Mr. Chairman, I take this opportunity to thank the Member for Emerson for his words and also bringing up the community of Bissett.

I know the Member for Ru pertsland also made reference to Bissett yesterday, and I can just bring the comm ittee up to date on what's happened. A government agency commit tee has been formed, includin g representation from the Department of Nor thern Aff airs, Natur al Resour ces, Mines, Economic Development and other agencies. Other agencies include Frontier School Division and Hydro and possibly one or two other, Environ mental Protection and the like.

The purpose of the comm ittee is at least threefold, to co-ordina te the govern ment community and company concerns, priorize courses of action and to examine impli cations and make recommendations to the Minister on alternatives. The comm ittee has had three meetings to date, one of which was after the announcement in the House.

Actions taken to date include draft land policy to protect the rights of the existing residents and to establish terms of reference for dealing with pressure of new applications as a result of the mine development, and a draft Ministerial order for interim development control for the community of Bissett. Identification of immed iate concerns to be dealt with , water supply, lack of information on alternatives, and the need for new sub divisions locations and the lack of geotechnical data in the area.

A need for budget presentation to treasury board and data to be gathered in time for the next meeting, which will be ... I'm not sure when that is but I think they're being held fairly regularly now. Northern Affairs staff have also met with the community and the company to resolve immedia te problems such as the location of tem porary single quarters camp.

A meeting of government comm ittee is scheduled for - one of the meetings was held yesterday but I know that the company is interested in hiring as many of the people in the area as they possibly can apart from the specialized types of trades that would have to be brought into the area, but I know they're planning on drawing people from not only the communitie s of Bissett but I believe Hole River, Seymour ville, Manigotagan, and there may be other communit ies in that immed iate area, but those ones I know for sure, they'll be drawing labour force from.

I believe that it's anticipated that there'll be something like 19 7 or to round it off, about 200 jobs in that area and it's anticipated that that program will run for a period of at least five years. Hopefully that will stretch out into longer than that, but it does look very encouraging. The company are particularly interested in using all the local people that they can possibly get from th ose surr oundin g commu nities tha t I have mentioned and I think the meetings that have been held to date have been very useful and I think we've been pretty well right on

schedule in order to try and keep abreast of the dev elopme nts, because I understand the plant will be back in production later on in 19 81. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Wel l, Mr. Chairman, could the Minister indicate when this commi ttee was set up and who are the members of the comm ittee, because I think there's some lack of information about that?

I was talking to someone from the government, one of the officials in government just this week and he seemed to indicate to me that there wasn't anything happening in terms of any co-ordinated planning effort, relating to the Bissett mine. MR. GOURL AY: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm not sure who you were speaking to, but this is certainly not correct information. The first meeting involving the different government departments and agencies, I would say would be held early in the new year. MR. BOSTROM: Was held. MR. GOURL AY: Was held, yes, and involving the communi ty as well. MR.

BOSTROM: Well, to be more specific then, Mr. Chairman, so that we may know exactly who makes up the commi ttee, could the Minister indicate who are the memb ers of the commi ttee, who are specified from the various de partment s as having the responsibility to co-ordinate this thing and also, who would be the chairman, who would be the chief contact person for the communities to contact in case they have any concerns, which they'd like to communic ate and have resolved? MR. GOURLA V: Mr.

Chairman, I wouldn't have all the na mes of the peopl e from the various departments available tonight; this can be provided to you. The Area Manager from the Selkirk Office, Department of Northern Affairs, is the Chairman and there will be a co-ordinator from the department who will be moving into Bissett on a full-time basis. He'll be working there, not living there, but he'll be there as a full-time admin istrator, co-ordinator type of person until things get into place and working on their own. MR.

BOSTROM: What will the qual ifications of this person be and in the event that this person does not have the qu alifications of a com muni ty planner, someone who can assist the community in the very rapid planning process that they have to move thr ough, to ready thems elves for this ma ssive development? Would the Minister be able to give that kind of service to the community?

Is it available within his Department of Northern Affairs and are the planning people in the department at the present time been given the directive to gear up to assist the community of Bissett in preparing for this industrial development? 3215

Thursday, 30 April, 1981 MR. GQURLAY: Yes, Mr. Chairman, Mun icipal Affairs in the Planning Branch, will be working in that area to provide assistance and have been in there - I'm not sure just how long they've been in there but they have been doing some work in the Bissett community already. I under stand the - I'm not sure if it's the Mayor or is he referred to as the Mayor in Bissett or community leader at least - the communi ty is aware of these things happening and of what's taken place this day. MR. BOSTROM: Mr.

Chairman, I am informed that the Northern Affairs planning people, the planners, planning section, have not been in contact with Bissett and the commun ication that has gone back and forth indicates that the planners have not been given the directive to use their facilities and expertise in a priority way to assist this community and I would think, since this is the one No rthern Affairs community that I know of, in fact it's probably the only one, that has this kind of massive development right on their doorstep, I would think that it would be encum bent on the Department of Northern Affairs to communiti cate to their Planning Branch that this should be a priority and that they should be assisting the community in every way they can to prepare for this devel opment, rather than having the mining company do the development and do it in such a way that may not be to the lasting benefit of the community.

After all, the community has been there after the mine closed down before and it will probably be there after this mining company moves out, in the event that the ore is depleted, so I would think that any kind of infrastructure that's put in should be put in in such a way that it will be to the long-term benefit of the commu nity and th erefore the communi ty should be the one that's involved in doing the planning, that would be in corporated into any changes in the community, because these very quick trailer camp-type setups that are put in place and then abandoned after a mine happens to pull out, do not provide for any long-term lasting benefit to the community.

There may be a water system, a sewer system, that's put in place to service a very specific group of people that are moving in for purp oses of the mining venture and 10 years down the road they will move out and the facilities will be in a place which is inaccessible to the general community and maybe doesn't fit in with the desires of the community, in terms of their development.

So I'm asking the Minister if he can be more specific and if he can tell me today or tomorrow, who will he have as a planner, or planners, involved in assisting the Bissett community in dealing with the municipal services which will be put in place?

I would think th!:lt in the event that the mining company is prepared to invest a substantial sum of money, $15 mil lion I'm told, and some of that would be for infrastructure, I would think that it wouldn't matter one way or the other to them which way that money is spent as long as they receive the benefits that they require in terms of services, so that they would certainly be prepared to work with the community and develop services that would be incorporated into those general services that serve the rest of the residents of the community, not only the incoming mining population. MR. GOURL AY: Well, Mr.

Chairman, my Deputy Minister advises me that he has personally been in contact with the Northern Planning

Section of the Department of Municipal Affairs and that work is under way and the name of the persons in the Planning Office, Brian Kelner and Neil Carron, and I'd be pleased to supply you with more details of other names of people involved from other departments and be more specific on the types of things that have been looked at and are under way at the present time. MR.

BOSTROM: Is the Minister telling me then that these people will be at the disposal of the commun ity of Bissett in terms of their being available to assist the community on ongoing basis immed iately, to work out the details of the planning that must be done in a very short period of time? I understand they want to have the mine fully operational by the end of 19 81, so really they're going to be putting in some infrastructure, I would think, this summer in order to be able to handle the influx of people. MR. GOURL AY: Mr.

Chairman, we are well aware of the advancement of the development there and also 1 think that we acted I thought maybe a little bit in haste in getting meetings going, even at a time when it wasn't sure that the development would proceed, and I am informed that the planners are available now and are in the area and will be working very closely with the community of Bissett. MR.

BOSTROM: We will be watc hing very carefully then to see that is actually taking place and that the people in the com muni ty, thr ough their elected mayor and council are having the opportunity to have a say in how the services are put into place and where th ey are located in rela tionship to the comm un ity. I have the impr ession already from discussions with people that the mining company is doing such and such, and the mining company, "they are putting in a trailer camp or whatever in a certain area. " Mr.

Chairman, I am not so sure that is being co­ ordinated through the community council and being appr oved through the community planning process, and I would ask the Minister to ensure through his department that actually is taking place and that the mining company, I'm sure, as I said earlier, I can't see why it would make any difference to them since all they would be really interested in is having the services in place and they would want to work with the community.

So I am asking the Minister if he would ensure that the Northern Affairs co-ordinators are working with the mining company and with the commu nity to ensure that the devel opment that takes place in terms of infrastructure development is taking place according to the desires and wishes and priorities of the community? MR. GOURL AY: Mr.

Chairman, I thank the member for his comments, but I can assure you that in my opinion, we have been on top of this situation, and we realize the im portance and the urgency of the development and the requirements that have to be put in place in order to meet the start-up of this mine later on in 19 81. lt in volves mor e than Northern Affairs co-ordinators; there's many of the other departments involved. I would say there is a lot of 3216

Thursday, 30 April, 1981 enthusiasm by the people involved in the different departments, community, and other agencies, and certainly do appreciate the comments from time to time of the member from that constituency if he feels that there are some areas that need attention. I don't mind that being brought forward if he thinks that there are some weaknesses tha t are not being addressed. But from the information I get and the enthusiasm of staff that are working on this, I am pleased to say now that we feel that we can give you these assurances that you've raised and are in place. MR. BOSTROM: Mr.

Chairman, I am glad to hear that the Minister is taking that action. lt was my information, as I indicated, that the Planning Branch wasn't fully inv olved in this process yet, and I am not sure tha t the Minister answered tha t qu estion directly, if he is making available to the commun ity a planner or planners to work with them on site to assist them in the planning process that's taking place.

I think it would be a good move on the part of the government to have someone there, not just a co-ordinator, who I und erstand the function of a co­ ordinator, but somebody with some land planning and commun ity planning capability to assist the community, because really they are not qualified land planners. They have a sense of what the community priorities are, but they would not have the expertise to put that into a community plan. I am sure they would appr eciate and need that kind of a service. MR.

GOURLA Y: I think I mentioned that these problems are being add ressed and that the northern planning services are being provided in the normal manner that they would be in any community with respect to this type of development. MR. BOSTROM: That's one side of the equation, Mr. Chairman. The other side is the hiring strategy which would be utilized by the company and the training strategy, if any, utilized by both the company and the government, and I would ask the Minister what can he tell us right now of the specifics of that? What kind of discussions has his department had with the company?

He said they are anxious to do these things and we have heard that kind of thing before, and if the Minister will pardon me if I'm a bit cynical at times of that particular promise. I would rather have some thing more specific and particularly some thing in action by both the government and the company in terms of their definite intention to bring people on stream at the time that the operation begins. Now I mentioned to the Min ister in general com ments the other day reg arding the AMO C Developme nt in Saska tchewan, where the government there was very specific.

They told the company they had to have a certain quota of people from the northern area as part of their workforce. The company had no choice. Now, I don't expect the government here has laid down the restrictions that precisely.

However, I would still think tha t the Minister, as Minister of Northern Affairs, should be co-ordinating this and ensuring, numb er one, that the company is doing mo re than saying that they are going to hire local people; that they are actually contacting the local communiti es to let people know what's happening with the project and to recruit people; numb er one, people who alr eady ha ve experience in the mmmg business who perhaps worked in min es before and they're dr illers and mu ckers and tram workers, etc., but in addition to that, Mr.

Chairman, to identify potential workers for both the mill and the mine and to begin a training process as far in advance of the project that the workers will be ready to come on when the project begins. In other words, like the project in northern Saskatchewan, in AMOC, where they train people in advance, well enough in advance so that when the mill opened they had a trained staff there ready to walk in and start operation. That's the kind of thing that we would like to see happen there and I would hope that the Minister wou ld want to see that happen and is taking some steps to ensure that it does happen.

If he doesn't have the clout of a clause in a lease like the northern Saskatchewan Minister has to compel the company to do that, then at least he has to have somebody senior on staff on location, or at least available to the communit ies in order that they can, working through the government, ensure that the company is living up to that statement of intent. I would ask the Minister to precisely outline what is happening in that regard. MR.

GOURLA Y: The most recent meeting was held yesterday, I believe; I know that the Department of Labour are on the comm ittee and are dealing with the company on living and training and this sort of thing. I have been enquiring as to the company's intentions with respect to hiring local people, because I understand there are a number of people that live in that Bissett community that have worked in the min es previously; no doubt there's some expertise available ther e tha t have had some background in this line of work.

However I can get more information with respect to what's taken place and the intentions, what really is going to be the format of hiring and involving the local people because we are interested , and this is the indication that the company is interested in doing this and that I can get mo re specific details from the Labour Department and bring tha t back to Commit tee. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. A.R. (Pete) ADAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. it seems to me that what the Minister is telling us now should have been in place a long time ago.

The Minister has taken away all the programs that were in place, most of them, and because of having taken all these programs that were in place, that there would be other programs to replace them, and it seem to me that it's time, Mr. Chairman, that we either have to have some kind of training programs to have northerners acquire the necessary skills to be able to avail thems elves to those opportunities that do present thems elves in the north.

We either have to have that or else we have to have an apprenticeship type of a program so that they will acquire the skills, either in a training program or else an appr entice ship program with the compa nys th emselves, which you see in very many other countries - not so much in western countries, but certainly overseas they have those programs and I think they're working well. I seem to feel that there's a lack of rapport at the community level with the government now, and I'm 3217

Thursday, 30 April, 1981 not surli) what is the cause of it, whether it's just a suspicion on the part of the commun ities because of what has happened with the protracted restraint. Maybe what they've seen happen in their local communi ties came too much as a shock and maybe they have become suspicious of the government, I'm not sure, but it seems to me that you look around, I notice for instance, what's happened at South Indian Lake and the Minister tells us he has a hard time to understand why that took place.

But we do know that at Crane River, that's in my area, when we had a program there that was MANWOP, which is the Manitoba Training Program at Crane River and that was pulled back and I think still ongoing now, but it's been moved to Dauphin and I think I read some item on it not very long ago that they were doing some work for the Town of Dauphin. I don't think that was the intent of the program when it was introduced. What they were doing in Crane River was a variety of things. Most of the programs that they attempted at Crane River was to try and teach the local population the occupation of carpentry.

They rehabilitated homes in the area; they fixed up doors; they put siding on; they put flooring in; they re-roofed; they did all kinds of types of work that would give some people some experience in carpentry and then they could go out later and find themselves occupation as carpenters in other areas of the province. Those are the kinds of programs that I think were in place then that are not now.

For instance, when they closed down the MANWOP operation at Crane River there was a building there that they had used for automot ive servicing; there was another area of training skills; the fellows were hired at the minimal wage, but slightly better than welfare, I presume, and they were acquiring the skills of repairing automo tive equipment, overhauling motors and automobiles and trucks and tractors and that was closed down; that is no longer in operation.

There is a building there that was deteriorating, vacant for the last couple of years or th ree years since this government came into office, and the local community, last fall I believe it was, they tried to get something going again of a similar nature or trying to create employment in their own community; they got a Federal grant through the LEAP grant or something and they spent $6,000 rehabilitating this building, changing the windows and mod ifying it to have people sewing in there, and the Department of Northern Affairs apparently came in and called a halt to the whole issue.

The only thing that they had to comple te, I believe, was wiring the building to bring it up to suitability for what they wanted to use the building for and the Department of Northern Affairs came in and shut everything down. They said you have no right using this building, this is our building, it's not yours.

The community, the Mayor, the local Council felt that they could use this building to create some activity in their areas and create jobs and then we have the big hand of government coming in and saying, no this our building, if you want it you have to sign a lease and sign over all the im provements, the $6,000 and whatever they put into it - the $8 ,000 that they had to put in it. This is the information that was given to me and I believe that that operation hasn't restarted again, as far as I know. They're still hoping to get it going. I don't know.

I think that they eventually were able to come to some agreement with Northern Affairs as far as the use of the building is concerned and I think they finally got permission to use the building, but only after lengthy discu ssions, as far as I can understand, but the last information I have is that that thing is still closed down and they're still trying to get it going. So this is the kind of a situation that you see happening. This is only one area; this one community in my constituency.

But I believe some of things that were mentioned by my colleague such as health, and he only mentioned it in passing but the situation of health, the del ivery of health and services in the North, I think is lacking. And I think -(lnterject ion)­ well, somebody says, "now, now. " Mr. Chairman, I spoke to the Admin istrator of the Ste. Rose Hospital and, Mr. Chairman, I was advised by the Admin istrator of the Ste. Rose Hospital that 80 percent of the patients who come from the reserves, 80 percent of them come in with stomach ailments and respiratory ailments.

I know that the fat cat Conservatives like to laugh about peoples' health in the North and in remote areas but, Mr. Chairman, there's only two reasons why that many people wou ld come in with res pir atory dis eases and stomach ailments, diarrhea and that, and that is housing, clothing, and food; there's nothing else. And that is what we see as far as the situation on the reserves. it's got to be poor housing when everybody is coming in with chest colds and pneumonia and so on, and the stomach ailment has to do with poor suppl ies of water that are not situable for human consumption. That is one area.

So when the Minister says that everything is nice and fine and he's proud to present his program to us, I'm telling you that he has a long way to go as far as -(Int erjection)- Well, he talks about mess, but he's created, you know, you're creating a bigger mess. Sure there is going to a lot of problems before we resolve the situation of putting those people into the mains tream of things and I hear the Minister of Agriculture say, you know, cleaning up a mess. When we suggest putting in a training program for natives so that they could acq uire skil ls to go in field workers, he says, "they don't want to work.

" And not only that but his colleague, the Member for Gladstone, echoed those sentiments as well, "they don't want to stoop down at stoop labour. You've got to work if you want to go into the fields. So, you know, we're not interested. " So this is the attitude that I think people are disappointed with. You look at your Budget, Mr. Chairman, and what do you see? You see a $4 million cut. You see a $4 million cut in your Budget. If I look on one side of your . . . unl ess you've got some money hidden some place but I see $27 million. (Interjection)- Well, he did mention that he had some slush fund a while ago.

I see on one side here $27. 6 million and on the other side here we see $31. 55 million. So, Mr. Chairman, this Minister is not able to get into Cabinet and fight for his share of the bud getary pie, so to speak. Now either he's a weak Minister and can't stand up to the other Ministers or else he's not trying to - (Interjection) MR. CHAIRMAN: One speaker at a time. MR. ADAM: There's going to be a lot of trial and error even by this Minister and I'm sure by our 3218

Thursday, 30 April, 1981 governme nt as well when we were in. As my colleague from Rupertsland said, "it's better to make some errors then to sit down and do nothing," and that is what is happening. Mr. Chairman, the appr oach of this government is far too simplistic for the problems that are in the north. Every project that has to be in has to show a profit. That is the idea of this Government. They do not take into consideration the social costs, the other costs th at it costs the govern ment, the same government that's trying to balance the book on one particular project. The Budget has to balance.

Well, your Budg et doesn't balance, Mr. Chairman. The government's Budget doesn't balance, so I use that analogy because when you start up a project in the north and I don't care what business you start. Every business that starts in Manitoba, they usually project for a five-year loss before they start breaking even. Even private industry that starts, they usually figure out that there's going to be so many years of a loss. I don't care what kind of company that you start. Mr.

Chairman, when you start on a small scale with all the odds against you, all the odds that are against you in the north, the remote commun ities, you're bound to have problems. There is going to be trial and error but you have to try because the alternative is too costly, in my opinion, the alternative is just too costly to accept. Now the Minister was talking about a tendering pr ocess and he was up set with some of the tendering and I'm not sure where the tendering was. And I believe he gave his figures of $9,500, $14, 200 and $1 6,000, I think that's what he ... if I marked that down correctly.

And he was upset because they accepted the $14,000 instead of the $9,000.0 0. There was some bids here. There was a bid of $1 6,000, there was a bid of $9,500, and there was a bid of $14, 200, I believe and the Budget that was presented by the Department was $13,500.00. That was the Estima te of the Northern Affairs, and those people took the $14, 200,00. Mr. Speaker, it seems to me that the $9,500 was unrealistic in relation to the other Budge ts and in relation to the Budget as presented by Northern Affairs. lt seems -(I nterjection)- I said there's four bids.

There's four bids. (Interjection)- Well the Minister put in a bid for 13 .5 . He said - (Interjection)- that's what they said, the estimate was 13 .5. Here's Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Again I need a little guidance. it seems as though on 1(

b) we're going around the entire mulb erry bush of the whole department. The Chairman has been rather lax, in other departments it's worked out rather well but the Chairman right now doesn't really follow where we're going and if that's the whole thing here, probably it could be considered. We are on 1(

b) and really should we not go line in line and rather get it organized; there are other mem bers that want to speak and the Chair is a little confused as to which route we want to go. I need advisement from the comm ittee. it's not in the rule book we can really go this way but the Chairman has been flexible and will be flexible if we have some und erstanding. The Mem ber for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: I just point that out, Mr.

Chairman, because we are on the admin istration here and we had wide latitude; I heard the Minister criticize the acceptance of tenders by a certain community and I look at the figur es. lt seems to me th at tha t comm ittee were not far out when they accepted the second bid. it was very close to the estimate as presented by the department. They were $700 out; I don't think that that was unrealistic, and that's the only reason why I mention it, because the Minister was critical of those people accepting that bid.

I know that members opposite are not interested but if they are not interested they don't have to be here. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Minnedosa on a point of order. MR. DAVID BLAKE: The Mem ber for Ste. Rose is great to throw that out that we're not interested. We are interested in examining these Estima tes and we want to see them move along and let the Opposition have an ample opportunity to examine them, which they've done very, very thoroughly. If the Member for Ste.

Rose had listened to the Mem ber for Churchill and the Minister when they went over th ese Esti ma tes, he would have un derstood what ha d happ ened th ere, but he rambles on and rambles on about something he knows absolutely nothing about and is wasting the com mi ttee's time. Tha t thing was covered this afternoon adequately. I say, let's move along and let the Opposition members examine some other parts of the Estima tes. MR. CHAIRMAN: I think the Member for Minnedosa has a point.

I think I expressed a little bit earlier that if we would try to get line by line, there's some sequence of what we're trying to accomplish. The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, I have covered pretty well the poi nts tha t I wanted to bring to th e Minister's attention, that I would like to know just was has happened on the Crane River outfit. There's been some problems there with the communi ty.

I have suggested to him that we should be looking at a different way of approaching those problems in those remote communities because it's not the same as dealing with southern Manitoba, I can tell you that, a long ways from it. If you think you're just going to build a bunch of roads up there and everything's going to be nice and rosy, no, it isn't, it's not going to work. And we tell you now. MR. GOURLA Y: Mr. Chairman, I am flabb ergasted at the lack of knowledge that the Mem ber for Ste. Rose has in his own constituency. He says that Crane River is in his area.

I notice the Minister of Labour is here now, and some years ago, when he was also Minister of No rthern Affairs, he initiated a study into the garment possibilities in the north, and that developed into a feasibility study looking at Crane River - it involved the Department of Northern Affairs, it involved the Federal people, it involved Communi ties Economic Devel opment Fund - and the report came back to me, as I became Minister in the interim, that this project would not be feasible in the Crane River area, so the province pulled out but the commnity decided they still wanted to go ahead and 3219

Thursday, 30 April, 1981 they convinced the Federal people that they should put money into Crane River. The Department of Northern Affairs had a building available in the community, the community council proceeded to give the local incorporated group that had attained the Federal funding, gave them permission to go in and use the building, but local communities are not able to hold tenure of a building because they don't have that authority.

The Department of Northern Affairs was more than willing to lease that building to the group but no, they went ahead on their own and they spent a lot of money in the building, fixing it up, without having a proper lease. lt involved the building inspection, there was no building inspection for what they were planning on doing, there was no fire inspection, there was no insurance for fire or liability, so tha t's why the Department of Northern Affairs had to step in when they found out that all this had proceeded without a proper lease in place.

Then the group in Crane River who was promoting this garment project raised hell because Northern Affairs were shutting them down. We wer en't shutting them down, we wanted them to use the building, but we had to have a proper lease in place so that they could proceed on a reasonable basis so that there was no problem with liability and fire and all those things that I mentioned earlier. I'm surprised that the Mem ber for Ste. Rose would throw all this gobbledygook out about this project in Crane River. He didn't know a darn thing of what was happening the re.

The lease has been subsequently signed, it's a dollar a year lease; the garment factory project has not got into operation yet, but I understand they're proceeding with the building, almost ready to get into operation. That's the story with the project at Crane River and I'm really surprised that the member would make the statements he did here tonight. He didn't have a clue what was going on there. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, I was aware of what the Minister ha s told me.

I had received some information from some of the people involved and I did mention that the problems between Northern Affairs and the community had been resolved. But doesn't that indicate that there's a lack of rapport and commun ication between the department and the council, that the council didn't know where they stood on this building?

Here's a vacant building that they had used for a number of years to train people how to fix motors and so on, that the communi ty had constructed themselves, I suppose, in the original instance, and they went in there - isn't that a lack of training, if you will, or people to go in there and commun icate with these people on how to operate in a communi ty and how to discharge their responsibilities? Perhaps we need more of that; more people and mo re assistance going in such as you have with the LGDs. You know, you have people going into the LGDs all the time assi sting them and so on.

As far as Northern Affairs, maybe you'd have better rapport with them if there was more communic ation. MR. GOURLAY: Mr. Chairman, the Mem ber for Ste. Rose should be aware that the co-ordinator meets regularly with the community council in Crane River, and as soon as the department was aware of what was happening in the old school, then this was brought to the community's attention. Here are the problems you are going to run into, you can't just move in and do this to a public building.

We have to have a lease in place and that's where the problem - the group that had got permission from the communit y council felt that we were becoming too much involved in the community and creating havoc with this garment factory, but that wasn't the case at all. We were happy to see the building being used even though the department felt that the project was not viable, that was beside the point.

They had been able to obtain funding from the Federal people and were proceeding but all we wanted was to clear the way, to have a lease in place, so that these liability items would be covered in the event of some disaster, whether it be fire or somebody being injured in the building, and that was all that we were involved in and wanted to get accomplished, getting the lease signed. MR.

ADAM: I am not sure whether they are going to continue or not but when this happened, when the problem arose with the Department of Northern Affairs and the community, it was my understanding that the Federal LEAP program im mediately backed off. So I am not sure where it is at the present time, they may have come back in, but it is my understanding that they were not even going to put up the - they were pulling out of it entirely because of the problems that had to do with the building. But as I say, I haven't heard the latest on it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Ho nour able Min ister of Agriculture. HON. JAMES E.

DOWNEY (Arthur): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don't want to prolong the debate, I just want to set the record straight and I do think it is im portant that we do so - that the Member for Ste.

Rose made comment about certain things that I was sup posed to have said during my Estimates. don't believe it's correct what he put on the record, that we were not supportive of the native workers in the Portage vegetable industry, in fact the figu res we put on the record at that time show that we have in fact increased the numb er of employment opportunities from 17 0 to well over 300 and some, in that particular industry and not all, Mr. Chairman, of those particularly in the vegetable fields.

There are training programs going on continually to have them work within the actual processing of the foods in the processing plants, so it all isn't stook labour and there are in fact some very good and capable management-type people and workers in the total vegetable industry. I think he should check the Hansard because it was not said by me that the people weren 't willing to work in that particular community. I would also like to make a very brief comment, Mr.

Chairman, about the fact that he is a fine individual to sit there and try and say that he is the total answer to the people in northern Manitoba, calling us fat cat Conservatives, and I don't even think it is parliamentary word, Mr. Chairman, and it's a pretty cheap kind of a comment when you look at what the Minister has indicated he has done since he 3220

Thursday, 30 April, 1981 has come into office as being the Northern Affairs Minister. The correcting of the programs and the hard work he has done to make the - even though they might have been programs that were put in pla ce or started by the last government, he has cleaned up a lot of the difficulties and the problems that were there and he has proceeded to develop some strategies jointly, particularly in some of the agricultural programs. We have a study taking place on agriculture in the north. We have a program, Mr.

Chairman, where there was a good support from the Minister of No rthern Affair s; the Minis ter of Econ omic Development and the Depart ment of Agriculture on a north feeding the north program, there was tremendous involvement by all the people up there; a directive from the Minister of Northern Affairs to help the people help themselves. I would say those are postive actions that the Minister of Northern Affairs is directly involved in, as well as, Mr.

Chairman, the helping of the del ivery of the 4-H Programs in northern Manitoba, some thing that is a personal and a social assistance to the people, whether they be native or any other type of people; strong support from that Minister. So when he makes, what I would consider, a cheap shot at my colleague, the Minister of Municipal and Northern Affairs, I think he should retract that statement and take it off the record because there has been some strong work done and good direction given by the Minister. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (b)(1) - pass; 1. (c)(1) - pass; 2.(a) - the Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Mr.

Chairman, before we pass this sect ion perhaps the Minister could give us a breakdown of his admin istrative structure for his department. I don't believe he has put out an annual report for his department, so perhaps he could indicate to us the organizational structure for our information. MR. GOURLAY: Mr. Chairman, in this

section there is no increase in SMYs. The increase in the money allocated to this

section covers the general salary increase. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a) - pass - the Member for Churchill - the Member for Rup ertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, did we pass 1. (c)? I don't recall you calling out . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, I did, we're on 2.(a). I am capable of backing up, if it is for a reason . . . stuck on it a long time. I didn't slip over it. MR. BOSTROM: I didn't hear you call the vote on the item. MR. CHAIRMAN: We don't return that resolution until 1. (a). 2.(a) - the Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: Mr.

Chairperson, on 1. (c), just one quick qu estion as there appears to be a $900 decrease in the item entitled, Other Expend itures for the year 19 82 over the year ending March 31 st, 19 81. Can the Minister explain why that decrease is there and what effect it is anticipated to have on the functioning of that par ticular sect ion of his department? MR. GOURLAY: Mr. Chairman, last year we agreed to participate in the funding of the North Feeding the North Conference and that was included in that area last year, and of course that expenditure was not budgeted for in the current year. MR.

COWAN: How much was that expenditure for last year? MR. GOURL AY: $2,000.00. MR. COWAN: So there is in fact an inflationary increase built into that of $1, 10 0.00. Is that correct? MR. GOURL AY: Yes, that's correct. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a) - the Memb er for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, in this

section I understand it relates to the Channel Area Loggers and Moose Lake Loggers, and earlier this year we went through the reports for Channel Area Loggers and the Minister indicated at that time that he was going to be taking certain action in terms of . . . MR. GOURLA V: That would more properly come up under (c)(1 ) and (c)(2). MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a) - pass - the Member for Churchill. MR.

COWAN: That is a bit confusing now because under the item in the Estima tes book it says that this admin istrative supp ort services area pr ovides adminis trative support services to the department and northern and remote communitie s in terms of budget, expenditur es, cost-sh aring arrangements, and provides support to Channel Area Loggers and Moose Lake Loggers. The Minister is indicating that he would prefer to discuss that under which item in the Estimates? MR. GOURLAY: Just below that on (

c) Canada­ Manitoba NORTHERN DEVELOPM ENT, (c)(1) and (2). MR. COWAN: 2.(c)(1) and (2) are the areas that are being indicated now. On the area 2.(

a) can the Minister indicate if there is any change in the number of staff person years? MR. GOURLAY: Mr. Chairman, I had indicated there is no change and the money increase covers the general salary increase. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a) - pass; 2.(b) - pass; 2.(c)(1) - the Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, that's where I had indicated that I would like to ask the question of the Minister, if he can give us a status report on Channel Area Loggers, what is happening with the company at the present time with respect to the management and their dispute with Abitibi over the access to the resources and also the oppo rtunit y for other communities in the area to participate. 3221

Thursday, 30 April, 1981 If the Minister would recall during the Estima tes or the presentation of the report, I had indicated that the community of Bloodvein had indicated a desire to become part of the operation as the operation was originally intended to serve.

The reason it was called Channel Area Loggers was because it was intended to provide an empl oyment and logging vehicle for that channel area from Berens River south including the communities on both sides of the lake, and there have been people participating from the other side of the lake, from Peguis and Fisher River, who go over to cut at the camp at Berens River. There were a numb er of questions sort of left hanging there at the end of that report and the Minister had indicated he was following it up, so I would like to hear what is happening. MR.

GOURLAV: Yes, I am quite pleased to be able to discuss Channel Area Loggers further at this time. The operations with Channel Area Loggers this past season have not been as encouraging as we thought they were going to be this current year and mainly because of the mild weather conditions that we experienced. That was one of the main problems we had this year. But also we seemed to be running into problems of production, not being able to get the necessary production up to the level where it would reduce the losses. We had some concerns about the company, Abitibi, really playing ball with us on this operation.

We felt that maybe we were being un dermined somewhat. Discussions with the company and the Channel Area personnel brought back information to me that we felt that it was time that we sat down with the company executives from their head office and a meeting was arranged with the Vice-President in Toronto, and it was not possible for me to attend that meeting but I had representatives from my department meet with the Vice-President in Toronto and he assured us that the company was definitely interested in the well-being of Channel Area Loggers.

They wanted to co-operate in every way they could, but it was brought to our attention that perhaps there had been a breakdown of commun ication between the company and Channel Area Loggers.

From the information that was provided to us and in discussing it further with the manager, Reno Kivisto and other people involved in the logging company, that perhaps we were at fault to some degree as well and the Abitibi have indicated to us that they will be supplying us with a five-year cutting plan and the Vice-President will be coming to Winnipeg in the next month or maybe even the next couple of weeks, to discuss this project further with us and their willingness to participate in contracting with various people in the area and certainly we want to follow up on this, to get more contracts into the hands of - whether it be local bands that might be interested or other local people in that area that can get the production up to where it should be.

I think with the negotiations and discussions that have taken place thus far, that we will be making some impr ovement in the overall production levels of Channel Area Loggers. Now, Reno Kivisto is the manager on site who works between Moose Lake and Chan nel Area Loggers at Berens River. He feels that the work load is becoming too much for him and he would prefer to remain at Moose Lake and concentrate on that 3222 operation and at the pr esent time we 'r e endeavouring to get a person into the Berens River area to be on site and take over that operation there.

But we will be having further discussions with Abitibi, as they have assured us that they are more than willing to sit down with us and to discuss the five-year plan, to make sure that Channel Area Loggers can become more successful and perhaps reduce the losses that they have sustained, in the last two years. Now perhaps, if you have more specific questions, I may be able to give you more information. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, Henry J. Einarson, (Rock Lake): The Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Wel l, Mr.

Chairman, I'd be interested to know mo re specifics on what the government is proposing to Abitibi, rather than the other way around. I mean who's in the driver's seat here? I can't see why the government should have to go hat in hand to Toronto, to ask them whether we can use the resources on the east side of Lake Winnipeg for social and economic objectives. So I object to that procedure entirely.

I would hope that the Minister would be more forceful in his negotiations or discussions with Abitibi and tell the company that there are certain objectives that the government and the people of Manitoba want to achieve, in terms of economic development and employment opportunities and resource development in that area. The only thing that should be of concern I would think, to the company, is whether or not the timb er is pr oduced efficiently and in sufficient quantities to supply the mill at Pine Falls.

Now as far as the Minister and his department are concerned, I would think they should be in the dr iver's seat here and in their negotiations and discussions, they should be indicating what are the areas that should be set aside, in that area, for the company to give them the base they need to be successful and also how they would like to see the company operate with Abitibi; that is how they would like to see Abitibi work with the Channel Area Loggers, in order to make it a viable company.

Now they need to have a relationship there, where Abitibi is co-operating with Channel Area Loggers and not doing things to block them and I brought a couple of examples to the Minister's attention, when the report was presented, because I was informed that Abitibi had moved contract people in, to work in an area just south of where Channel Area Loggers were cutting and they were utilizing roads which the Channel Area Company had to pay for, to get the wood out to the landings on the lake and, Mr. Chairman, I un derstand Channel Area Loggers objected to that.

I understand as a result, there was some friction between the company and the manager, Mr. Kivisto, and I'm not surpr ised now to hear that he is leaving the company, given that it seems that the government here has capitulated to Abitibi and has not seen itself in a position of being able to be forceful enough to indicate to Abitibi what the guidel ines and ground rules should be. Now that's the impression I received from the Minister. I'd be happy to hear him deny it and to indicate that that's not the case, but that's not what I'm hearing, Mr. Chairman. MR. GOU RLAY: Well, Mr .

Chairman, as understand it, the Abitibi have the cutting rights in ..

Thursday, 30 April, 1981 that general area and they're prepared to sit down with us and discuss th ose areas th at can be allocated for contracting, in co-operation with the Channel Area Loggers, so that we can get our production up to where it's anticipated that we can maybe reach a break even situation and we've never had that in the past. it's always been a haphazard kind of an arrangement and we've been competing in areas where Abitibi have had other workers involved and so this will be a five year plan, that will be designated where we can operate to supply Channel Area Loggers with contracting and that this is the type of discussions that we've recently had and will continue to have in the near future, so that we can have it better organized than it ever has been in the past.

MR. BOSTROM: Is the Minister telling me then, that the arrangement will be that in that area around Berens River and Bloodvein that the timber there will be alloca ted to Channel Area Loggers and that Channel Area Loggers will be in the driver's seat, so to speak, in terms of the contract workers or hourly paid workers that they have in that area. That if there are contract workers to come in there, contract cutters, skitters, etc. that they will be working for Channel Area Loggers and not directly for Abitibi, because I think that's the dispute, that was part of the dispute at least.

If they're going to be in competition in that area, if you're only going to give Channel Area Loggers a little chunk of bush there that they can cut in for the next five years and say to Abitibi, okay, you can bring your contract cutters in all the rest of the area, well in very short order, that area will be cut out and it will not be accessible to the company for the period after the five years has expired. And in fact, they will be in competition there for that access to resources and I think that was at least one of the main issues that was involved this spring, when we discussed it in comm ittee. MR.

GOURLAY: Well, Mr. Chairman, I think earlier you were referring to the Bloodvein, Bradbury, that general area. I'm not aware of the five year cutting plan, just the designated areas that it will involve. This is what we want to study with the company, so that we can plan accordingly and have contracts awarded th at will be supplying Channe l Area Loggers. Now, Abitibi, of course, will be contracting as well, but not in the designated areas that we want to establish for Channel Area. Now the areas that will be considered would be somewhat north of the areas that you identify.

Now just to be mo re specific, these are some of the areas that we have to, or the total area that we have to establish in our discussions with the company, but we make it very clear to Abitibi that we're not prepared to see Channel Area get pushed around. We want to make this company viable, if we possibly can and it would appear that Reno Kivisto, we expected too much of Reno. He was heavily involved in Moose Lake and travelling back and forth to Channel Area Loggers and his health was not going to last.

He was really - you know, he's been uptight this last year or so and so he feels that he should maybe concentrate on the Moose Lake area and under mutual arrangement, we think that that's a good move, because he is a valuable person to us and we don't want to see his health to the point where he isn't able to function. We will be putting a new man in place in the Channel Area and hopefully we can have a greatly im proved production base in the coming year. MR. BOSTROM: Well, Mr.

Chairman, the Minister hasn't been specific enough and I suppose he doesn't have the information here with him, but I just want to indicate that we'll be watching this to see what kind of an arrangement they will be making.

I think that just for his information that it would our position that they should be, not only looking at a five year period, but they should be looking at the long range potential for th at company and they should be looking at the resource base, in terms of the long range potential and award ing a proper cutting area to them for the long range viability of that company, not only for five years. Because after all, Mr. Chairman, the people in that area will be there long after that five year period is over and hopefully, they'll have some timber left to cut, as part of a long range project.

On the other point, Mr . Cha irman, I think it's regrettable and I mean we've gone at this debate before so I'm not going to belabour it, but I really think it's regre ttable tha t the Govern ment of Manitoba has to go to Toronto to meet with a company, to negotiate for timber resources and that to me is really a poor move.

I would think if the Minister of Northern Affairs or the Minister of Natu ral Resources has to meet with company officials, that are relating to a forest resource in Manitoba, they bloody well better come to Manitoba to meet with the Minister, not have the Minister and his officials have to trip down to Toronto to negotiate for resources that are in Manitoba. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 2.(c)

(2) Honourable Minister. pass - The MR. GOURL AY: Mr. Chairman, just to get this straight on the record, I indicated to the commit tee that I did not go to Toronto. I was prepared to do it, because I felt it was necessary to maybe get the attention of the company, but we had staff that were going into Toronto anyway. lt wasn't a special trip that they made, although I was prepared to make a special trip, but I just forget, now I think it was because Estima tes, I expected were maybe coming up at the time, I'm not sure.

I think that was the reason, but we found out, or at least the staff advised me that it wasn't altogether the company's fault that there had been some problems with the Ch annel Area Loggers, th at ther e ha d been a breakdown of commun ication on our side as well, and we accept that but we are not prepared to let Channel Area Loggers continuously be in a problem deficit area.

We feel that with the assurance of the Vice-President of Abitibi, that they want to see the viability of Channel Area Loggers, they're interested in the welfare of that company and they have been let down somewhat, I mean the company, because we have prom ised them for years and years now, that we'd have a certain level of production and we've always managed to fail to achie ve th at production and so this is some concern to the company as well. I think with the assurances that we have got from the company and the Vice-President will be coming 3223

Thursday, 30 April, 1981 into Wiiihipeg shortly, to discuss the cutting and the five-year plan in the next two or thr ee weeks, perhaps. MR. BOSTROM: Well just to follow up on the Minister's com ments. Can he indicate what the specifics were of this breakdown of communic ation? Was it between the manager and the local officials of Abitibi or was it between the Chairman of the Board of Chatinel Area Loggers, or Directors of Channel Area Loggers and Abitibi? What were the specifics of that breakdown? MR.

GOURLAY: Well apparently there's never in the past, there's never been a long term plan or an intermed iate term cutting plan established. it's been a hap hazard kind of an arrangement and the general managet and the local officials apparently have discussed the cutting contracts and it was always never rea lly final ized as to the contra ct ing arrangements, and it just floated from one year to the next and it was alwa ys ju st a breakdown somewhere that contractors never were contacted or arranged for cutting areas.

I think that we have to take some of the responsibility as well for the lack of success in that area. MR. CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor: 2.(c)(1) - pass; 2.(c)(2) - pass; 2.(c)(3) - pass.

Be it resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $444,300 for Northern Affairs -p ass. 3.(a)(1) - the Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: Perhaps the Minister can begin by giving us a staff person year breakdown for this year as com pared to last year on 3. in total if he wishes, and that will take care of it through the whole series under the item 3. in the Estimates. MR. GOURLAY: Last year we had 24 SMYs, this year it's 26. The increase in funding includes the general salary increase in addition to two additional clerical staff. MR. COW AN: How many of those positions last year were vacant?

MR. GOURLAY: Last year; at any specific point in time last year? MR. COWAN: The reason I ask, and perhaps it's my note taking, but I had down that there were 26 SMYs last year, which was an increase of two, now I may have copied the figu res down wrong from last year during the Estimates, I'm just checking to make certain that I had it correct. Maybe I can help.

Under 3.(a)(1) last year the Minister indicated, "At the present time, " I'm quoting the Minister from Page 4241 of the Hansard of 19 80, "At the present time we have 26 SMYs, an increase of two this past year, " and when he was questioned further as to where those two were coming on stream, he said "th ere are two addit ional co­ ordinators in the commun ities. " He's now indicating that they have 24 and are going up to 26 which wou ld be the situation which we would have anticipated occurring in the previous year. MR. GOURLAY: Mr.

Chairman, apparently those two position s were used elsewhere within the department. Those two positions apparently went into Community wWrks, which is 3.(

c) and now we're saying that brought us back to 24 and now we're going back up to 26. Is that confusing you? MR. COWAN: it's not confusing me but if I understand it correctly what we have is a no increase situation over last year then in reality, even although you're saying there are two increased staff. MR. GOURLA Y: The total staff with this situation increases by two in the department. MR. COWAN: According to the Minister under this section, there were 26 staff person years last year which was an increase of two. This year he's saying there are 26 staff man years for the upcoming year, which is an increase of two. MR. GOURLA Y: I guess to make it more simple, there's no change in this

section but we increase by two staff memb ers in community works. MR. COWAN: Mr. Chairperson, I assure you when it comes to discussing staff person years that I am perhaps not as quick as one should be because I get confused by the funded and unfun ded and the vacancies and the non-vacancies. I'm not certain that any of us, without ha ving staff to assist us, understands very well the mechanics of it but I will take the Minister's word for it that there is no change but an increase of two. MR. GOUR LAY: But there's no change in the total numb er under this section. MR.

COWAN: The Member for Rock Lake says that's simple, but I will have to take the Minister's word for it that it's the best thing that should be done under the circumstances. That's just on the staffing and I'm only saying that because I really don't have an argument to counter it. But what I would like to talk about under this item is the self-ad min istering communi ties.

I believe we talked about self-ad min istering communities under this item last year and would ask the Minister to begin with, how many communit ies that come under Nor thern Affairs juris diction are prese ntly self­ admin istering commun ities? And while the Minister is getting that information, perhaps I can just put on the record so that we can facilitate a question that I asked him earlier on employment.

Last year on June 3rd, I asked the Minister if he could indicate how many of the jobs that were provided for under the Northlands Agreement - and I'm quoting myself from last year, I say, "I would ask the Minister to indicate how many of those jobs in fact went to persons residing in Northern Manitoba previous to their job, " and the Minister replied, "We don't have that information available right now and it might take a few weeks to prove that but we can do that for you.

" So that's a question that I'd asked earlier on in the evening in respect to full-time emp loyment that's been created under the Northlands Agreement. We had a commitment from the Minister last year to provide that information; we would hope we'd have it available to us this year when we reached that particular area of the Estima tes. MR. GOURL AY: Mr. Chairman, could you then ask specifically . 3224

Thursday, 30 April, 1981 MR. COWAN: Mr. Chairperson, I asked the Minister, how many communitie s have now attained the status of self-admin istering communit ies? MR. GOURLA Y: Twenty-two. MR. COWAN: That is a global figure of communit ies under the jurisdiction and responsibility of Northern Affairs that are self-ad mi nistering communi ties? MR. GOURL AY: Twenty-two out of fifty. MR. COWAN: Twenty-two out of fifty. I would ask the Minister then, how many communi ties have lost the self-administering status over the past year? MR.

GOURLA Y: One; Camperville was reduced from self-admin istering to joint admin istration. MR. COW AN: Perhaps the Minister would give some information on when that happened, the reasons behind it, and what action his department is taking in order to alle viate what I understand are some difficu lties with the self -admin istrat ion of tha t community. MR.

GOURLA Y: That community was placed into joint admin istration on April 6th of this year and basically the reasons for it were, the council had approved mayor and councillor fees, indemn ities to the mayor and council, and that is contrary to the regulations where the mayor is paid on the basis of $500 per year but it's based on $20 per meeting up to $500 per year; the councillors are paid $15 per meeting up to $300 per year.

Th ere were a numb er of other irreg ula rities involving the expenditure of money that was not authorized, the communi ties were not authorized to do, and the mayor and council were - I met with them and discussed this problem and followed up with a letter which they subs equently passed a resolution at one of their meetings to say that they were not prepared to make any change s and I further called the mayor in for a meeting to discuss this further and to relate to him the problems that I faced as Minister of Northern Affairs in not being able to tolerate this kind of situation, and it was agreed . that the council would be prepared to go back to a joint admini stration and that Northern Affairs personnel and the mayor and council would work closely to try and work out this overexpenditure situa tion.

I belie ve the commu nity was al most $10,000 in arrears in total because of the way they had operated. To my knowledge, the situation is working itself out reasonably well. I am not aware that there are any major problems at the present time with respect to the functioning of the community council and the department. MR. COWAN: The Minister hasn't really pointed out or ela borated upon how he intends to get that community back to a self-ad ministering status; there seems to be an im passe.

What act ion is the department taking to overcome that im passe and when does he expect that communi ty will be back on a self-ad min istering basis? MR. GOURLA Y: We will be viewing the operations th ere very closely but until such tim e as the community council can show to us that they will be mor e responsible in the carr ying out of their functions as a community council, then we're not prepared to move back to self-admin istering until those issues can be resolved. MR. COWAN: What does the community have to do to prove to the Minister that they are a responsible council? MR.

GOURLA Y: Well, we have certain guidelines and co-operative manuals to follow and that's what we expect the councils to follow under The Northern Affairs Act. MR. COWAN: My colleague, my leader, the Member for Selkirk, is suggesting that perhaps it would be beneficial if we could have a copy of that manual so that we can take a look at it and understand more directly what violations of the guidelines the Minister is suggesting the council was performing. MR.

GOURLAY: I'm not sure. lt seems to me that we discussed this in the House dur ing question period last year, the operating manuals, and I felt, or recall that 1 tabled one of those at that time. But if I didn't, I'd be prepared to provide that information. MR. COWAN: 1 believe perhaps the Minister did, let me just check, it's a black notebook about 2 inches thick that has action required by recommendation by such and such an individual. Have there been any changes to that over the past twelve months? MR. GOURLAY: There probably would be some housekeeping changes, so . . . MR.

COWAN: Perhaps the best thing to do then is to either provide us with a new document or to provide us with the housekeeping changes and we will upda te our own document. I still have that document so there's no necessity for a new one, just the housekeeping changes. MR. GOURLA Y: Each community is in possession of these manuals. You know they're quite familiar with them. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3(a) - The Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: On this item, Mr.

Chairperson, the Minister, last year, and I and others of my caucus discussed this item and at that time the Minister said that there were 23 self-ad ministering communities, you will note and I think it is quite illustrative that there is one less this year. And, as well, the Minister said that it was his intention and he anticipated and as a ma tter of fact he made it a categorical statement that there would be 26 by the end of 19 80.

We now find that instead of an increase of three, there is a decrease of one, which means that there are fewer self-admin istering communi ties today than there were in 19 77 when the Government took office - that Minister was not the Minister responsible for this portfolio at that time but his Government took office and there has been a decrease since that time and yet, the Minister throughout the Estima tes has said to us that he is encouraging communities to 3225

Thursday, 30 April, 1981 take more control over their local government; to take more control over their own affairs; to be more active in building their own future and yet we come back a year later being promised an increase of th ree commu nities that will in fact become self­ admin istering and we thought that was an admirable goal to take at that time, but instead, we have a situation where one less is self-ad ministering and tha t is, in absolut e terms, a decrease but in illustrative terms it is a symptom of the failure of this Government to live up to their own avowed purpose of making more commun ities self-ad min istering.

I would hope the Minister would be able to provide some insight as to why it is there's been a decrease when, in fact, he himself had categorically stated there would be an increase in self -ad min istering communiti es over the last twelve months. MR. GOURLA V: Mr. Chairman, when I quoted the number last year, as 22? 23, there were actually 20 last year. There was 2 added and then, Cross Lake and Norway House. Two more have gone into Joint from Trust, and then Camperville moved back from Self to Trust. MR.

COWAN: Now I'm not really certain what to believe, because let's listen to what the Minister said last year, and I'm reading from the Hansard. I'll start with my own comment, because we're talking about self-administering communities, and I'm quoting from Page 4240 of Hansard, June 2nd, 19 80. And I stated to the Minister at that time, "The Minister in his opening remarks indicated, as I said before, that there were 21 self-ad min istering communi ties and they wou ld hop e to add to tha t numb er five commun ities this year.

I'd ask the Minister if he can indicate how many self-ad min istering communities there were in 19 77, 197 8, 19 79? " The Minister's reply to me at that time was this, he said, "In 19 77 there were 23; in 19 7 8 down to 21; in 19 79 there were 21; and 19 80, 26." Now the Minister said there were 26 self- admin istering commun ities in 19 80. That's his statement. Now, I asked him and we have to go through the whole proc edur e here to un derstand the development of the figures last year because it was somewhat confusing last year.

I asked the Minister and I quote: "Does that mean that there are 26 now, or they would hope to have 26 by the end of the year? The Minister's reply to me was, "By the end of the current year. " Then, I asked, "Can the Minister indicate, perhaps, why there was a drop of two from 19 77 and 19 7 8 and what where the circu ms tances behind that reduction in numb er of self-ad minis tered com muni ties? " The Minister at that time said, "I should indicate that at the present time there are actually 23, with the indication this will increase to 26 by the end of 19 80.

" Now, the Minister is telling us, a few moments ago, that there were 22, but there were actually only 20 and the figures get more and more confusing and the fact is that no matter how you cut the figur es, no matter how you put the one column against the other column, you find out that there are fewer self­ admin istering communit ies in Northern Manitoba today than there were in 19 77. I think there are fewer than they are in 19 7 8. Well the members opposite say, "so, what? " Well I'll tell you so what, Mr. Chairman, and the people in the North will tell you so, what.

The fact is that his own Government, their own government, their own Minister has said that the y want mo re co mmuniti es to be self­ admi nistering. They know, in fact, that in order for the North to grow the commun ities are going to have to be able to take more control over their own destiny and their own future. I would ask the Minister if that is not the objective of his department to get more self- ad mini stering commu nities on stre am, point blank? MR. GOURLA V: When the communities reach that level where the y are pr epared to take th at responsibility, certainly we don't want to hold them back. MR.

COWAN: But I think it goes beyond not wanting to hold them back. Will the Minister not agree that they in fact are actively seeking to increase the numb er of self-ad minis tered communities in Northern Manitoba? MR. GOURLAV: You're asking if we are? That's true. MR. COWAN: The Minister says, that's true. We'll not so much for my edification but for the edification of his own members who seem to have difficulty in under standing why bringing communities on stream in respect to admin istering their own affairs is a positive action.

Can the Minister indicate why it is they want those communiti es to become self-administering? MR. GOU RLAV: Cer tainly it reduces our responsibility to have them manage their own affairs. it's as simple as that. MR. COWAN: I think it goes beyond that, that's a negative way of stating the equation. I think what it is is it increases their ability to manage their own affairs. Would that not be the more appropr iate way to say it? MR. GOURL AV: I would agree that's probably an accurate assumption. MR.

COWAN: I think we're in agreement, the Minister and I, I'm not certain about his colleagues and I, but the Minister and I are in agreement in respect to the positive aspect of self-admini stering com mu nities. We would like to see commun ities become more and more self-ad min istering until, I would suggest, that the goal should be all of the com munities having achieved a self -admini stering status.

Would the Minister not agree that that is the optimum goal to which he is directing his departmen t's energies, to have all the communities operating on a self-administering basis to show that they have some control over their own destiny; some influe nce over their own futur e and some pa rticipation in the da y to day act ivities of community life? MR. GOURLAV: That's true to a point, but I think that the communities have to want to become self­ admin istering. I don't think that we can prematurely force it upon them. 3226

Thursday, 30 April, 1981 MR. COWAN: Which commun ities have indicated to the Minister that they do not want to become self­ admin istering? MR. CH AIRMAN: 3 (a)(l) (a). The Mem ber for ChurchilL MR. COWAN: I believe the Minister is consulting with his staff. I can ask another question in the meantime, but it might just confuse the issue. If we can be permitted to wait one second for an answer. MR. GOURLA V: lt has been our experience, or observation, that when a communi ty gets into self­ adminis tration before they are ready to do so, that they invariably run into problems. MR.

COWAN: I would certainly agree that there is a stage of com munity dev elopment at whic h a community council can best take over its own affairs. That's not to say there won't be problems when that happens, that just means that there are stages of development for each community. But the question to the Minister was what commun ities have indicated to him that they do not want to become self­ admin istering? And perhaps the question is too much of an absolute; perhaps the question would be better phrased - which communit ies have indicated to the Minister that they do not want to work towards self-admin istering?

MR. GOURL AY: There hasn 't been any of the communities that have said that they don't want to work to become self-ad mini stering. And councils come and go, they change like they do in other parts of the provi nce and cer tainly none of the com muni ties have indicated they don't want to achieve this self-ad ministering level, but they have to develop into it. I think the communi ties thems elves appreciate that as welL MR. CHAIRMAN: I don't know whether it's me and the late hour but there's a real feedback and I agree with the Minister, but, please, one member at a time. The Member for Churchill. MR.

COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. lt is difficult to hear with the cross chatter. Continuing on with the discussion with the Minister, we now have come to realization, by the Minister's own words, that the department would like to see every communit y eventually reach a self­ admini stering status. And, I realize when I say that that's an optimum goal and I'm not placing any time constraints on it, I'm not saying by the end of 19 85 or by the end of 19 90, but that is the process which the department is working towards; the increase in the numb er of self-admi nistering commun ities.

The Minister has also sa id, accord ing to his observ ations and his experienc es, and I can substantiate them from my observations and my experiences, that communities want to work towards becoming self-ad mini stering. So the commun ities want the status, the government wants them to have the status and yet over the past year notwithstanding the discrepancy in figures, which I think is difficult to und erstand why th at discrepancy exists, but notwithstanding that, there has been an absolute decr ease in the numb er of self- admin istering commu nities.

And the Minister has said, last year, that there would be three more self-administering commun ities. Now the fact that there is not - as a matter of fact, in another area, under the same Estimates, he says there'll be five more, an increase this year from 21 to 26. So it's hard to pin-down one specific number even from last year's Estima tes. But the fact is there is an absolute decrease and this denotes a failure on the part of the Government to attain the goal to which it had directed its energies over the past year.

I would ask the Minister why it is his government has failed in respect to obtaining there self-stated objective of having 26 self-ad min istering commun ities by the year end 19 80? MR. GOURL AY: Mr. Chairman, I apologize for the confusion that perhaps I have created.

Certainly it wasn't intentional that these figures not be accurate, but I understand from staff that we've had a few commu nities mo ving up, back and forth, from between self-ad min istering and trust; and it does become a bit confusing when at any given time of the year the statistics are provided and we do have some fluctuating statistics with respect to the numb er that have retained self-ad min istrating status. Now th e advancement of the following commun ities from joint-a dmin istration to self­ admin istering status planned for this year include Nelson House and Easterville.

This is planned; we'll have to wait and to see when this is achieved. The last year they were in trust, they've moved up to joint and it looks like they could move ahead to self­ admin istering in this current fiscal year. MR. COWAN: But the question is, why did the government fail to attain its objective? What went wrong? lt said that there were going to be 26. Now I can under stand perhaps only having 25, perhaps a difficulty in one commun ity that didn't come on stream, but the fact is there's been an absolute decrease.

And yet the Minister, in his opening remarks, and thr ougho ut all day yesterday's discussions, said that they were moving towards more self-govern ment, moving towards more self­ control. But when you get the statistics in front of you, it shows that they are moving away from self­ government and moving away from more local control. I think that's a point th at has to be discussed in mor e detail. Why did they fail to reach that goal for which they had set their sights last year? MR.

GOURL AY: Well, perhaps I'v e been a little bit overly optimistic on the date that some of these commun ities would move into self-ad ministering. There are a number that we felt would have moved up this past year such as llford, Big Black River, Pine Dock, Princess Harbour and Stevenson Island. Now we think they will soon, I'm a little bit hesitant in view of what I've said in the past that perhaps these - I'm not sure now when they will actually move up to self-ad min istering, but we feel they're very close and it's hard to give any specific reason.

Councils may change and they may take a step backward because of the inexperienced council, or reasons of that nature. And so it certainly wasn't my intention to mi slead the comm ittee but these are the valid 3227

Thursday, 30 April, 1981 reasons, I think, that maybe the number hasn't gone as high as was anticipated, but these are identifying the communities that we were anticipating would move up to greater status. MR. COWAN: No one is accusing the Minister of trying to mi slead the comm ittee and I realize that it's difficult some times to deal with these nu mb ers because communi ties do move in and out of a certain status. Those problems are problems that any Minister would have in respect to trying to provide the most accurate picture.

However, that does not explain the absolute decrease and I don't want to belabour the point because I don't seem to be getting an answer from the Minister as to why those commun ities didn't move forward as much as he wanted them to.

But the fact is that the lists that he gave us just a few moments ago of the ones wh ich they had anticipated moving forward last year, does not correspond with the list of the communities which he gave us a few qu estions before, a few answers before, in respect to which ones they anticipated moving forward this year, which was Nelson House and Easterville, I believe, if I understood the Minister correctly. I may not have and I'll give him an opportunity to correct that statement if he wishes. MR.

GOURLAY: When I mentioned Nelson House and Easterville, that is they would be moving from joint admi nistration to self-admin istrating status this current year. (Interjection)- it's anticipated they will be. They were in trust last year so they have moved up one step, we're hoping they'll move ... MR. COWAN: Perhaps it would help if I could ask the Minister to provide this information for another sitting; there'll be another opportunity to discuss this particular aspect, I'm certain eithe r under the Minister's Salary or somewhere else, but to provide us with this detail.

Can he give us a list of all of the Northern Affairs communit ies, their current status, and if they have been self-admin istering in the past, and lost that status, and the dates of their changes from one status to another. Now I know I'm asking for detailed information when I ask for the dates. I'm not suggesting that I should have the absolute date but perhaps the year or the general time of year so that we can see what's happened, and if he would go back a number of years on that so that we can see which way the flow is going. MR.

GOURLA V: We would be pleased to do that and we could go back, I understand, right to 19 70. MR. COWAN: If he could have that for the next sitting that would be excellent for us, I think. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(a)(1) (a)(b)(c)(d) - pass. Comm ittee rise. SUPPL V - ATTORNEY -GENERAL MR. CHAIRMAN, Abe Kovnats (Radisson): This commit tee will come to order. I would direct the honourable members' attention to page 15 of the Main Estimates, Department of Attorney-General, Resolution No. 17 , Clause 2, Legal Services, item (

b) Criminal Prosecuttions - pass - the Honourable Member for Wellington. MR. CORRIN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wanted to continue with respect to this particular item, only in a small way, some incidentals that I wanted to pick up on that I thought we should have reports on. 1 guess dealing with one of the things that I find of some imp ortance and I hope others here do as well, the question of unsolved cases.

I have often wondered and in years past I had meant to ask, and wish to know before the elec tion - one never knows whether one is coming back or not - what is done by the department with respect to cases that have been unsolved and are under continuing investigation by the police authorities throughout the province. 1 was thinking particularly when I was considering this earlier in the week about two unsolved murder cases which I think have dr awn a great deal of public attention and are, to the best of my knowledge, still unsolved.

One of the cases, I don't remember the names of the victims, and it is a sad comment on my memory and I supp ose that probably happens, though in retrospect I was thinking that I couldn't remember the names of these two victims, both of whom were killed, I think, in the last 12 months, and then I thought back to earlier times and recollected several other cases and of course the names of those victims, I think, have been generally forgotten by the public and yet to the best of my knowledge their cases still go unsolved.

I can describe the cases because I know they will come im med iately to mi nd, all members will be familiar with them. One of the cases involved a young women, a lady who was involved in the real estate business. She was killed in a display home, I bel ieve in the northe ast part of the city - (Interjection)- In the Maples, yes. She was brutally mur dered, I believe it was last summer. lt was certainly, as in all these cases, a tragic event. The other case involved . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. Wouldn't this be better discussed under unsolved crimes.

I would think that the item und er discussion is Crimin al Prosecution. MR. CORRIN: Well, that's what we are talking about, it's criminal prose cution of the people involved and the investigation leading to a criminal prosecution of the people involved in the mur ders. MR. CHAIRMAN: I think it is very loosely accepted, to the honourable member but . . . MR. CORRIN: This is actually on the . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: I guess the pream ble is the mur ders, but I am having a little trouble. I will allow the honourable member to continue if we could get back to Criminal Prosecutions. The Honourable Memb er for Wellington.

MR. CORRIN: Well, it could be -(lnterje ction)­ That's right, the Memb er for ln kster draws my attention to page 18 . lt could be dealt with more properly perhaps under Law Enforcement. All we want to know is the procedure; we can deal with it then or if we can deal with it now, it doesn't really matter. 3228

Thursday, 30 April, 1981 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister on a point of order. HON. GERALD W. J. MERCIER (Osborne): On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. I believe the Mem ber for Wellington is also going to refer to the death of a boy in Stonewall. I can assure him that both cases are under continuing investigation. MR. CORRIN: I know that we can't discuss this in too much detail but what I was wondering, and I appreciate, I hope that the police are maintaining vigilence in their attempts to bring the perpetrator of both these heinous crimes to justice. What sort of ongoing monitoring is there?

Does the Attorney­ General's Department receive reports indicating the progress of the investiga tion? We have now, I suppo se, the most topical modern day murder case probably in the history of the world and that's the Atlanta child slayings and we know that in that particular situation there are intensive efforts going on involving the government and the law enforcement agencies from both the state, the city, and the Federal Government. I was just wondering with respect to this sort of unsolved murder crime, what sort of ongoing monitoring and evaluation of police work is there? Is there any attempt to do that?

MR. MERCIER: Well, Mr. Chairman, one can only answer such a question generally. I can indicate to the Mem ber for Wellington that the police really never close their books on any of these cases or others which I am sure other members can recall that have occurred in the past that have so far been unsolved. They do report from time to time to our Prosecutions Branch.

There may be advice requested from time to time from Crown Attorneys as to some investigative procedures that might be contempla ted but the books always remain open on all of these matters and with respect to the two specific ones the Member for Wellington is referring to, they are under a continuing active investigation. MR. CORRIN: I suppo se the obvious question is, is there any realistic hope that these cases will be broken in the next short while? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I think it would be wrong for me to indicate anything other than that these are under active investigation. MR.

CH AIRMAN: The Honour able Memb er for Wellington. MR. CORRIN: Yes, well I would only indicate and I hope it doesn't sound too sanctimonious because I'm sure that it will tend to be that way, that we on this side regard these matters as being im portant.

We know there's a tendency to forget and I'm not suggesting that the Minister or the government is forgetful or wants to forget about these sorts or cases, nor am I inferring that the police authorities wish to forget about them or are less than vigilant in pursuing them, but I would indicate that it seems to me that there should be continual eva lua tion, continual accounting, ongoing as between the police authorities and the Attorney-General's office, at a fairly senior level, in order that the Attorney-General 3229 be apprised of what is being done and is put in a position to decide whether sufficient efforts are being put forward to break these cases. it may be a bit of the vengeance in my character, but it jus t seems to me tha t it's someho w of fundamental imp ortance that the people who do those sorts of things; the people who commit those sorts of horrible acts, be brought to justice and I think that it requires exceptional effort, but I think it's very im portant.

There's something about the idea that there are these uns olved murder cases. I don't believe it encourages other people to commit murder, but on the other hand, I think in certain circums tances it may give people with the wrong sort of ideas, that little bit of extra encouragement they need and I don't know what the motives for either of those slayings were. it's difficult, I suppo se to even fathom why anybody would want to kill a little boy going home from a hockey game in Stonewall.

I can't imagine what sort of mind would work that way, but it seems to me that as long as that person is out there, there's a possibility that he or she will strike again and if not, nevertheless, ther e is some requirement that that person be made to pay for his or her actions. The other thing I wanted to deal with under this item, - I will sit down if anybody else wants to deal with this particular matter, Mr. Chairman. I want to deal with the matter of the gay book that was so much debated and so much reported on last year. I understand that the book is again available.

I took the liberty of checking with several book stores and I want you know that with respect to one of the shops I was heaped with abuse because they thought that I was a censor ship nut; which I am not. I asked whether he was going to sell the book, and I said well, I thought that you couldn't sell the book; and he said, well, that may be your opinion, sir, but I believe in civil liberties and so do the people who operate this store.

Anyway, I tried to explain that it wasn't a question of me trying to -(Interje ction)- I haven't read the book and I have no idea whether it contains obscene material or pmrnographic material as that is currently interpreted by the courts. In any event, he did tell me that it had been sold and they had been selling it for many months and to such an extent that they had sold out. The name of the store was Liberation Books, he told me it was on Spence Street and he told me that they had sold out and that they had done so in defiance of your order, sir. I'm referring, not to you, Mr.

Chairman, but the Attorney-General. And that they believed they were not breaking the law and that they had a right to merchandise this particular article. Well, they tell me that they expect their newest shipment to be in in two weeks - that was about three days ago, so maybe less than two weeks. They told me that they have ordered it and there is a demand for it and they will continue to sell it. They suggested that I drop by if I wished to purchase a copy in two weeks time.

I guess the question is, since they told me that the police were aware of it and had visited them since the celebrated letter from the senior Crown Attorney's office, whether or not a prosecution will be forthcoming when the book is put back on sale. I suppo se also we could ask whether they will be

Thursday, 30 April, 1981 prosecuted for having adm itted - and they will candidly admit, I understand - to having sold the book in the past several months. Will the Attorney­ General be filing a prosecution as was indicated in the letter of the s