Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT MONDAY, MAY 10, 1976 Number 60 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER

'-1ay 10, 197fi Tape 2557 PK - 1 The House met at 2:00 P.M. •~. Speaker in the Chair. JIR. SPEAKER: ---- - - Order, please! It has ~een drawn to my attention that we have in the palleries this afternoon a four-man delegation from the Town Council of Little Burnt Bay headed by their Mayor,Everett Burt, and I know that 11.11 hon. members will join me in welcoming these gentlemen to the House of Assembly. SOJ4'Il HON • MEJIBERS : Hear, hear! ORAL QUESTIONS "!R. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. !'ON. E. M. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, my question, Sir, is to the '-Unister of Provincial Affairs and Environment.

Last week he took not1ce of a question I asked him about tabling the studies in respect of th1 s ~ushy Pond Dam on the F.xploits River. I wonder if the minister has yet had an answer he can give the House, Sir? The hon. ~!inister of Provincial Affairs and Environment. JlON • A • J. MURPHY : My answer, Mr. Speaker, is this; we are getting all of that material together ready for the investigation that will follow as a result of the decision made by government. ~!R. ROBERTS: ----- Mr. f'peaker, a supp],.ementary. 1-'IR.. SPEAKER : A supplementary. '!R. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, are we to understand that they will be made available for the investigation, but not made public in the ITo use? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. •finister of Provincial Affairs and Environment. '!R. MURPHY: --- -- - I think I have answered the question adequately, Sir, in my opinion. ¥R • ROBERTS: ~~at was that,'Ank'? ''R • SPF.AKF.R: The hon. member for La~oile. ~!R . S .A. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the hon. Premier in the absence of the Minister of Mines and Energy. Could the hon.

Premier tell us just what the situation is now in connection with Eastcan in drilling off Labrador for oil and gas this comin~ S~er? Will they be drilling or will they not be drilling? 116ft

~'ay 10, 1971\ Tape 2557 PK- 2 Mr. Neary: Will the Premier comment on the report in The Daily News that they could not find enough drilling equipment to carry on the worlt down there? MR. SPEAKER,: The hon. Premier. H01il. F. D. MOORES : Yes, Mr. Speaker, The report in %b.~_Da:!,.\y_Be~ is erroneous.

The Ministet of Mines and Energy will be her.e :Ln a moment, lie is here now• He has met with the Eastcan people• he has checked through on the report, and they have still the same attention as tbe minister announced last week, the fact that they hope to have two drilling shi~s, and one submersible rig in operation this Summer. And that report thi.s morning was erroneous. MR. NEARY: Completely erroneous, eh? PREMIER MOORES : Pardon? Completely erroneous? PREMIER MOORES: Well,as far as I know. MR. NEARY: A supplementary.

Would the Minister of Mines and Energy care to elaborate on the Premier's statement in connectio .n with Eastcan drilling off Labrador this year for oil and gas? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. HON. J. C. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, all I can do is really repeat what the Premier has said. I mean,Eastcan 1 s plans for exploration off the Coast of Labrador this year are quite el!:tlensive, and they are planing to use two drill ships and a semi-submeraible. :Now, '1165

"!'v Jn, 1'171> T~pe 255fl IB-1 there i" nl <'11Y~" ROll'<' Rl i p:ht chnnce th;tt so,.,ethi.nr; !'lay interfer P:lth thnt or Ror1e RUrht possihflity that it could he interferrec'l Fit''· nut thnt iR their p];m and that is tt•eir prOI!"!".<cT!I!'le and there ltnr; heeTJ no cltrm~e in tl1at. I tl,ink the stor)' prohRbly originated "" a rE'~ult rof a meP.ting :in !~opec1ale,or in that area 1T,•hen they were T mpan ,there is always a chance that someth:inp, IT.ny h.~ppen to a ship ,.,here there mipht be SOT"e <"e1av. P.ut the:lr plans 1re fror an exten!':jve programme off J,ahrador this year.

That hns not ch:mr:ec'. i\nd tl1ry rJnn to use t~m flrilling ship!' ant'! a semi-submersible rip:. Tlu.•v nre w•ry optimjgtic ahout the rrrosr>ects there lls are ~,·e. C:ro thrrP ],-, .. l•PC'n no clt:1T'P:f' hut there is ahmys l' fll"Ssihj 1 -ltv thcot tt1er.e C<'U] d "<' sr>me interference or something could happen to one. of the rlrilUnp sh]ps or they l'lir:',t r:et there a b:!t later than it is pLmnecl for thel'l to r-et there. But there is no substance to the -r-£>port that tl'ey nre not poing to he working up there. ~·r. SPEAKFP: ''T!. 1ffiiTI:: ~ suppleT"entl'lry to the hon.

Fl.nister of ~'ines and roulr' tl1e T"jnister jnrlicate to the House ~vhat other col"panies ,.,; rht he rlr:ll] inr of~ the coast thls year? We kno~r about ~astcan. '·'e 1-·no~' ;~ht'\ut Petrocan and so on,but are there any more that you kno~' ;ohout that yon could tel] the House? "" SPJ\i\KJ\Tl: "~'he han. ~'in:lster of ?<:lnes and Energy. ,., ~l'n~:!ITF.: T •dll have to chPck on that, ~·r. Speaker, as to ~vhat other ~ctivfty there is ~oinr tro ~e. There will he some other ''T'. '-'lTTTT\: A further supp] el'lentary, ~'r. Speake.r. SPFM<-r;:".: T pi] 1 a]J m·' one further supplementary, then the hon.

"'e""h"r fnr '!'err;~ }/ova (''r. T.ush). '"T',. T:!f11TF.: "!'he reason for askinr; that T~as because the BP, British T'etrolemn Here. ope-r-:>tinp, .last year off the coast it1 the Rot~mod area. "o•-r T 1-1M• ~.,ondednr. if they were p.:oing to he b~tck there this year or not. The hon. >~ini!"ter of ~'ines and Energy. 7166

Vav 10,1976 "" r.'PflSl',TF.: 1t. )!J'. SPEA.l(F.P: l4l. NEAPY: Tape 2558 IB-2 T ~dll have to check to p:et accurate information on The hon. memher for ~erra Nova. /1 supplementary, Hr. Speaker. ~he hon. gentleman yields. I ~·7:111 allow one further supplementary. I'll • NEAPY: Would the hon. ~(inister of Y:tnes and Energy indicate to the House whether or not the drill:!.ng for gas and oil off the Grand Banks and off the Coast of Newfoundland is being completely abandoned :md that the drill:lng ••ill he confined this year to off the Coast of Lnhr,.<'lor only? The hon.

":lnister of )<:Jnes ~.nil F.ner~y. ~!ell,I will have to check to !l'ake sure, ~'r. Speaker, hut the t>m r.>ost prospP.ct:ive areas in oil and p;as ex"(lloration off the shores of the Province are off Labrador and the Northe~. st Newfoundland has in. I Clo not know of any pl annerl drill i:rg activity in the Grand 1l11nks area. r c'!o not th:lnk there is any for th:ls year. But I ~ ·r111 have to check to make ahsolute)v sure of that. '~ • ST'F./\KETl: The hon. member for Terra Nova. Y!'. LfTS!T: 1\ C'(uest:lon for the hon. ~'inister of Education.

According to tl1 is l!lorn:lnr, 1 s nan v News , J understand that the lloman Cathol:l c School Ro11rd here i:r St. John's •dlJ be laying off specialist teachers. T wonder if the ll'inister :Is in a position to comment on thjs and •~ether or not this >Till happen in other boards throughout the Province? t'T', SPEI\KET': The hon. ~':ln:lster of E<'lucat:lon. }'11, HmTSF.: l-fr. Speaker, I have just gotten back in time and I h11ve not h11cl t1me to investi~ate the

article in the paper. But ~pparently as I see it the school board in question 1•ilJ be lay:ln~ ~ff ~r replacinp. ~r putt:lng i:r another pos1tion six specialist teachers. T r\~ not know off hand how many speciallst teachers they qualify for but I think it must he up in the vicin:l.ty of sixty or seventy. But last year, last September, they hired six extra, I believe, five or '1167

":>v 10, 11'176 Tnpe 2558 IB-3 ,..,. Hf"l'f.R: f'i~ ('-Xtrll t<>nch<'rl'l over an<l nhove thei T quC'tn. They hired the"' fro!!' the hoartl office-. Tn ntl,er '''''rtls ,the be>ard pa1cl for these teachers nnd thc v. lo'CTC' spec ul 3t:lnr, of course, they ~o-ere assund,n~ that the th1 rc' rhanl' ••'Nil <! c:o"'e 1 n this ~eptelfther. Of course we cancelled that :>::: of ~ctobe r last year. ~o there is not a reduction in our ~uota. Tt h:>pren~< to '>E' sor:e speciaJist teachE'rs tl-11t they hc>n h;!.recl separately. ''o1·• t hAt ts :JS T ttnclerstancl t t. t no not know ho1~ accurate that 1 s. ''11 .

Sl'f.AKEJI: The he>n . l'le'"ber for Terra ~ova has a supplementary. !'R. T.ll~H: J understantl further that there is a new regulation or Snl'\e ne~· c:on<'it 1ons ">:! th respect to hi r:ln& !lpecial education teachers \'llich f"r tlo<' benefjt t'f hnn. l!'eMhPrs is different from spec ialis t tP~>chrr:::. ~o therr. h~s heen so~ new refulat:lons for the hiring of spec:l:>l ·etluc:.ti<~n te:tcl·ers. T we>nder if the l!l:ll'inte r :Is in a position rC> fn<lic.1te to tht' flouse ho~o1 th:ls mir,ht affect h:lrinr. teacher,; for next vea r ? \~ '1168

May 10, 1976 Tape no.2559 Page l - mw MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Education. MR. HOUSE: There is no special regulation. The regulation : stHl stand ·s, but we are trying to hold it at approximately the same numbe~except for special circumstances: but there is no hard and fast regulation made. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Lewisporte. MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Premier.

I think this comes under him directly and that is in connection with the youth conferences that were supposed to be held across Newfoundland this week, and I understand there were quite a few that were a total flop, and in some areas no en showed up at all. 1 wonder if the Premier could report to the House on this? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: I have no idea, Mr. Speaker. 1 can certainly find out the information and let the hon. member know. MR • SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that we are all asked to rally around the new flag,1 wonder if the Government House Leader, the Minister without Portfolio, would react to comments from the Newfoundland Historical Society and various other groups in connection with delaying the debate on the flag until they get an opportunity to make a contribution to the selection of the kind of flag that we should have? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister without Portfolio. MR. WELLS Mr.

Speaker, various letters have been received, and the letter the hon. member has spoken about. 1 am obviously going to discuss these with my colleagues, and we will take a position on it and presumably when the act comes before the House there will be a full debate on the whole flag matter. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR.

ROBERTS: My question, 1 think, should be addressed to the Premier, although possibly his colleague the Minister of Justice might be able to answer it, with reference to the fact that the Supreme Court, the Trial Division of the Supreme Court, have ruled that the Ombudsman has no access to material ~ · '·· 1169

May 10, 1976 Tape no. 2559 Page 2- mw Mr.

Roberts. rel.ating to patients at the Waterford Hospital - well, it is a question, I cannot go on - but with relation to the fact that the review board set up under the Mental Health Act can only go into applications for discharge, it cannot go into any other facet of administration of the hospital, are the government prepared to amend the relevant legislation,which I think would be the Hospitals Act - that is the act on which that board are now operating - to ensure that the ombudsman in the course of his duties may- where,it is proper and right - have access to ~terial relating to patients at that hospital or for that matter any other if it is within the ambit of his duties?

MR. SPEAKER : ~m.. HICKMAN: The han. Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, I have not as yet received a copy of the decision of Mr. Justice Noel, which I understand was handed down Friday past. But there is an indication in the paper that the ombudsman intends to instruct his solicitor to file notice of appeal.

When the case has been finally adjudicated upon I am sure that government will look not only at the results of that decision but also to ascertain to its own satisfaction whether the review board does indeed have the kind of jurisdiction that is necessary to ensure that the confidentiality of a patient's file is maintained whilst at the same time the administrative processes of the hospital are under the same scrutiny as any other institution. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary - the han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, the confidentiality, of course, is protected by virtue of the fact that the Ombudsman acts only when the patient requests him to act. But would the minister consider, in new of the public interest in this matter, requesting the Ombudsman not to proceed with an appeal which could take a number of months at best, and it may be possibly even longer, but instead bring the matter before the legislature so the legislature can take a policy decision which is properly our purview and that will resolve the matter for once and for all? 7170

May 10, 1976 Tape no. 2559 Page 3 - mw MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice, MR. HICKMAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, I think that ordinary prudence would dictate that I first read the decision.of the trial judge before committing the government to any final and irrevocable step, and this I shall do at the earliest opportunity. MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS : A further supplementary - the hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, a further and a final one I would think on this question: Could the minis~er undertake to let us have the statement in the House within the next few days? I realize he has to get Mr.

Justice Noel's reasons for judgment and read them. MR. HICKMAN: I presume it was a·written decision. MR. ROBERTS: Well I assume also. I mean I do not know. But in any event it is written in that it is recorded, and it is his reasons for judgment we need. We know what his judgment is. His judgment was to deny these applications. MR. HICKMAN: No! No! MR. ROBERTS: Would the minister undertake to make a statement to the House within the next week or ten days to let us know the government's position on this matter? MR. SPEAKER: MR. HICKMAN: The hon. Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, 1171

'fay 11), 1976, Tape 256n, Page 1 -- aph I cannot give that commitment. That is 11. matter of government policy. ~n~. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Eagle River. ~R. STRACHAN: ~r. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Tourism. Could the minister tell the House whether copies of the Wild Life Act are freely available and whether his department have considered distributing copies of the Act to the more isolated parts of the Province? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Tourism. ~IR. HICKEY: - - ---- Mr. Speaker, I certainly am of the oninion that the copies are available.

I have not had occasion to have any discussion with regard to their distribution, but certainly anyone who wishes one can certainly obtain one without any prohlPm by contacting us. The matter of having them distributed to the more isolated areas is probably a very good idea and I will certainly take it under notice and see what can be done. 'IR. STRACHAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. '1R. SPEAKER: A supplementary~ I recognize the hon. gentleman for a supplementary. HR.

STRACHAN: Hould the minister tell the House whether his Wild Life Enforcement Division has been instructed to suddenly strictly enforce the Wild Life Act as it presently stands? Whether they have been instructed to enforce the Wild Life Act? t!R. SPEAKF.R: The hon. the Minister of Tourism. 'lR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I have not given any instructions, any special instructions to my Wild Life staff. I could only conclude they are enforcing the Wild Life Act as always. There has never been any direction to enforce part of it in a more strenuous way than any other, but indeed to enforce all of it as th" lm~ required.

I do not know if the hon. member is referring to "' <; tatement made recently with regard to changes or proposed chanp.es in connection t•'ith big game licencing and especially with rer:ard to T>Oachi.ng, hut certainly there has been no special instructions given my staff by me in this connection. .- 7172

Hay 10, 1976, Tape 2560, Page 2 -- apb '!R. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Eagle River. ·- ··------ - Mr. Speaker, I am dissatisfied with the answer and under Standing Order 3l(

g) I wish to debate it in the late show. The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the ----- hon. the ~inister of Education. Would the minister indicate to the House whether or not any special or extraordinary ·steps have been taken to tighten up the accounting procedures in the Vocational Schools as recommended by the Auditor General?

And in view of the fact that there has been examples of abuses in three Vocational Schools in Newfoundland in the last year or so, what steps has the minister taken to tighten up the accounting procedures, plug the loopholes, and coulc the minister tell us what is happening now in the case of the Grand Falls Vocational School? HR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Education. -------- MR. HOUSE: ------ Mr. Speaker, the inspectors from our department are neriodically checking on the procedures and accounts in the Vocational Schools.

And as the Auditor General's Report reconnnended that we have a better procedure or more people, we are putting two more inspectors in the field now as a result of the problems we have had and as a result of the recommenrlations, I guess, from the Auditor General. We are making periodic checks and, of course, an indication of that is the fact that the inspectors from the department have found some monies unaccounted for in that particular school. My answer to the first

part is that we are beefing up our department in that respect. We have some more staff hired. With respect to the unaccounted for funds in Grand 'Falls, there is an internal investigation goin11: on and the clerk in question has been suspended pending the outcome of the internal investigation. Of course, we are taking steps also we are discussing it with the Department of Justice and possibly there w·ill be a police investigation also. 717_3

'{ay 10, 1976, Tape 2560, Page 3 - aph ~fR:.~J'f.AKER: _ The non. the member for LI!Poile. :~.!- .N.J'ARY: ~tr. Speaker, a question to the 1-finist e r of Porestry and A~riculture. I think that is the appropriate minister to ask about the Hawkes Bay Lumber ~11. Has the minister finished ne~otiations with Bowaters? Could the minister indicate to the HousP when the mill will reopen? When it will start full production a~ain? Can he r.ive us a progress report on the Pawkes 1\ny mUl? .r. .. ..

•fay 10, 1976 Tane No. 2561 NM- 1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. ~m. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker, we had some talks in here with Bowaters I thin~ ahout three weeks ago and they have been looking at the situation. There is some wood available there but not enoup,h to continue the operation. I will be meeting with Bowaters Again \·Jednesday morning. They are coming in, the manager, and the assistant manager and the woods manager. I will be further pursuing this question.

Certainly it is government's wish that the Hawkes Bay operation would resume at full capacity so far as the company that is operating the mill is concerned. They would like to have insured a continuous supply of resource,naturally,so they will not have any shutdowns. And we have another alternative which I would hope to be in a position to announce next week, sometime next vleek,in which there may be a further supply of it 7but I would hope that we would have something definite within the next couple of weeks. He have sufficient wood there now that we could probably operate it for a month, six weeks at the most.

We want to ensure that we have a continuous supply so that if there is a start up that it will not be just a start up for a short period of time and close down again. MR. NEARY: The hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture again, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: Is this a supplementary? MR. NEARY: No, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. memher for Trinity - Ray de Verde. MR. RO\.JE: M'r. Speaker, I would like to address a Q,Uestion to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Rousing in his capacity as Chairman of the Committee to appoint the Standing Committees.

Could the minister, Sir, indicate to the House when these committees will be named, the co~ittee such as the Public Accqunts Committee? MR. SPEAKER: ·The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs. '!R. PECKFORD: Hr. Speaker, I cannot give a definite time when they ~- 7175

Mav 10, 197,; Tape No. 2561 Wo{ - 2 Till.. PEC!(FORD: will be appointed. I understand that there were to he some discussions hetween the Leader of the Opposition and the House J;eader on this side of the House and that until these discussions were held I have not heen advised as yet and I ~uess thE' llouse Leader will advise me of those mel'tings.,and when he has then I will take appropriate action. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Trinity Bay de Verde,a supplementary. "'R. l!JlWR: Mr.

Speaker, not a supplementary but, Sir, I am dissatisfied with the answer to that question and I give noti~e under the Standing Orders that I wish to debate it during the Late Show. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. '·lR. !'mARY: }fr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Justice, Sir. Would the Minister of Justice indicate to the House who has jurisdiction over the regulation of ferry rates between Portugal Cove and Bell Island? Is it the Province via the Public Utilities Board or is it the Canadian Transport· Commission via the Water Transport Committee?

Could the minister clear up the matter and tell us whose jurisdiction the regulation, the setting of rates, whose .1urisdicition that it is under? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: That is a <JUestion that I would rather discuss with the hon. ~entleman from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) behind the curtain because anythin~ I say, Mr. Speaker, should be without r>re.1udice.

The question of jurisdiction is being considered very carefully by solicitors on the staff of my department and that advice will be taken into account by government when a decision is made to implement a policy decision that has already been made to take whatever steps are appropriate to protect,if at all possible,the people of Bell Island with respect to the Government of Canada's action which has resulted in a proposed tariff beinR suhmitted before the board to the Commissioners of Puhlic Utilities of Newfoundland • ... 7176

May 10 , 1976 Tape No. 2561 MR. !UCIO!AN: In that respect I can announce to bon. ~entlemen that the Government of Newfoundland has retained the services of Mr. John J. O'Neil, Q .• C., to appear on behalf of the Government pf Newfoundland to oppose NM- 3 the ~pplication that has b~ filed with the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities,and take what other steps . he may de.em appropriate in- that regard. It would not be f'air f~r me. t~ indicate what approach Mr.

O'Neil will take,because I am sure he has not had an opportun1ty to address himself to all of the issues, -one of which is the question of jurisdiction. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: ?.fR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, The hon, member for LaPoUe. Mr.

Speaker, is the min1ster aware that a year and a half or two years ago_,when the Government of Canada called public ten<ll!rs for the operation o.f that service, that the Province intervened on the gro.unds that tb.e Newfounc1land Transportation Company had an exclusive franchise granted by the Public Utilities Board and parre<l the federal government, the Gov!!rtllllettt of Canada from calling public tenders for the operation of tl:lat service. Is the minister aware of that? 7177

May 10, 1976 Tape 2562 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Justice. HON. T. A. HICKMAN: I am aware that the Newfoundland Transportation Company indicated to the Government of Canada and/or the regulatory agency in Ottawa that they had back in 1951 or 1952 or thereabouts, in the early 1950's,obtained a decree or an order giving them a franchise to operate a ferry service between Bell Island and Portugal Cove, And what influence that had upon the Federal regulatory body I do not know. But it is a fact that the Newfoundland Transportation Company were given the franchise to operate the second boat.

And the question of jurisdiction goes to the ultra vires or the intra vires classification of the legislation that was introduced into this House in 1951 by way of

an act known as The Ferries Act and adopted by the Legislature of the Province of Newfoundland. MR.~OBERTS: It went unchallenged for twenty-five years? ~l!._CKMAN: To my knowledge it has not been challenged, but the Doctrine of Laches does not apply to a constitutional issue. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. tffi • SPEAKER: ------ All right 1 a supplementary. This supplementary is to the bon. Premier. Would the hon.

Premier indicate to the House if there is any move on behalf of the Government of Canada to have the Province take over all of the ferry services that are subsidized or presently come under the r.overnment of Canada that are intra-provincial, not inter-provincial, intra-provincial? HR. SPEAKER: The bon. Premier. PRE~ITER_!100RF.S: Not to my lmowledge, Mr. Speaker. '1R. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d 'Espoir and afterwards tle bon. member for Terra Nova. Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Touris~.

It is the same question I asked him on March 31, he undertook to get the information for me at that time. It now being six ••eel--s later I thought I should repeat the question. Would the minister indicate to the House the amounts of money dispersed to 7178

May 10, 1976 Tape 2562 PK- 2 Mr. Simmons: ------ Cabot ' Group 4 in each of the fiscal years 197~-1974, 1974-1975, anrl 1975-197~ by his department and by the government generally? M~. SPF.AKER: The hon. Minister of Tourism. HON. T. HICKFY: ~r. Speaker, I gave my hon. friend an answer to that question, Re probably forgets. I told him in the first instance that I certainly would be most willing to look into the matter and to see what could be done to provide the information, and I certainly had no objections personally.

On so doing I was advised that I do not have the right as minister to table any documents in this regard and I referred the han. gentleman to the Department of Public Works and Services. _!-1R ._SIMMONS : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, I recognize the bon. member. ~IR. S !!-!MONS : Do I understand from the minister's comments that no money was paid during these years by his department? Is that what the minister is saying? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Tourism. HR. HICKEY: No, Mr. Speaker, my han. friend is excelling himself in misinterpreting what I said.

I simply said that I do not have the right to provide any documents, and he asked for the tabling of some documents. And I have simply said, in fact,! acknowledged that indeed there was work done by that company for my department. And I have told him now as . I have told him on an earlier occasion that upon checking I am advised that I do not have the right as Minister of Tourism to table any documents with regards to services provided by that or any other company that that is the responsibility of Public Works and Services.

The funds are in my estimates or whatever the case might he, but the contracts entered into or purchase orders or whatever the case may be comes from another department. MR. Sil-!MONS: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: I will allow one further supplementary. MR. SIM1'10NS: Mr. Speaker, I thank the Minister for that clarification. I had not asked for any documents to be tabled as such. What I am looking for is the information. If he cannot give it, could I direct ::.·1179

fay 19, 1976 Tape 2562 PK- 3 Mr. Simm011s: my s~ppl.ementary to the Acting Minister of Public Works, and ask h1m if be would make available to the House the information I have been asking for,namely, ltould the 111inister indicate what amounts of money were dispersed by government to Cabot Group 4 in the fiscal years 1973-1974, 1974-1975, 1975-1976? Would the minister undertake to get that informa -tion for me? ~!R·.....:.'il.E!J<ER: The Acting Minister a£ Public Wor~. l>fll. J. :ROUSSEAU: I will have to check that out, Mr. Speaker. tfR. SPEAKER: The hon. -member for TeJ;Ta Nova. F. T. LUSH: ttr.

Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister C!f F.du'cation. In an earlier question I asked respe ·cting the new r~ulntions with respect to hiring special education teachers. I ~render 1.£ the minister is aware of a letter that was sent out to superintendents on April 15 throughout the Province setting down new guildelines for the hiring of special education teachers? 7180 .. .•

''ny 111, 1976 Tape 2563 Jll-1 1 ~. SPF.~~r: The hon. ~1nister of F.rlucetion. !~. !lC'TTSF.: Sir, I am a"mre of a letter going out stating that. "'e try to l<E"ep :It clmm to, I hel:!eve, about 700,H .he is referrinp; to th.:~t particul11r letter, lceepjnr, 1.t 11t tl1at level for the very specific rPason, T m1ght 11rln, that in the last year or so there has been a sort · , of a saturation level reached .in that particuJ ar phase because a lot of schools han hirer' special enucation teachers for dealing with pnpiJ s ._.no nre s1 m., lParner.s rather than mentally retarded,and a lot of schooJs h;we c-ut h"c-1<:.

Of course .,the increase over the couple of years has been poinr, out :tnto the outlying communities, Fe think that enforcinp; tl-e rep,uJ at:ions,as it was meant for the mentaJ ly retarnen, ,.re "r" r;oinp: tc- lreer rour.hJy the smre number. Nm·' tl->f' nther TE"f'Ulation, we l·Yent out suggest:inp; soMe chanp,es in the ac-t rep:arrlin~ tl1E'. ho10.rc'! 1 s responsibility for the trainable ~Pnta11y retarclecl. nf murse, that is a thing that ~rill be cleveJ opinp; over the. next tPO or three ye.ars. T rlo not know if that is exactly what he is referrfnp; to or not.

J. supp]e'!T'entary,anrl it wi.lJ !'Jso be the Jast que~'<tion !::__,__ TXSH: !<r. ~peaker, a supplementary. The situation fs that the ne~o> re~ul11tions nr the guidelines state that the schnol is not supposed tn h11ve l"nre - or a schooJ hoarC! - is not supposecl to have more than "'"''""n per cent nr it's tnt;ol teaching force in sped<tl e<lucat:lon. This of course :Is go:!np: to restrict m«ny areas.

ForUierly it was basecl on stuclent neecls, now :It seel'l:'l to he ba:'led on teachers. ~o the que!'lt:lon; T ,,. ··•onder:lnp ; r the m-Inister could inform the House ••hether or not there •·iJl he any fnrthe.- Javoffs <ts a result of th:ls n~1 regulation. 'J"}]e hon. ~'in:!ster of Education. ~"' H!lTTSr.: >io,:l.t :Is a sn!!'r.estion. l{e talked ahout seven per cent he c:wse "'e put that in 1 ine v:lth the report done t-y the feneraJ rnvem,.ent a fet1 years a?,o. I thi.nk it was ca1lec1 One Million Children.

Th:l s \Tas rnurhJ y the nurnher of people requi dn~ that kind of attent:l.on. \~e arC' try:lnr, tn heep it <·d thin that range. It :Is not going to necessitate Jayoffs, no. It is just guidelines • . ,. 718t

''ay 10, J1 !7fi "'ape ?5fi3 IB-2 0 l'T'E~ ~ 01" 1'Pf. "'AY: nn '1'1ot:!on that tile JTonse resolve :ltRe]f into rommittee of !'npply . !lr , ~real · <'r left the rha:lr. CO"J'ITTTEE OF ~UPPLY: ''" 1'1~1- T'~'"Nl : l' ri'.er, pJ ense! Subhead 1008-01. 'T'he hnn • r' in is ter of Health. "r. Ct•a:lmnn, I ~ave a commitment to the ~on. member f'or Pa:le ~'erte-Hhite Ray (}'r. !lic'.eout) that "'e would refer h"r.l: to 1007 -1'\fi-04 'ldth re!'~!Tc't to Medicare costs.

He raised a question ns ro ho•,. co.,.,e the r":f fference bet'<veen "~<.•hat ~.re are pro .1ecting this yPar •--hich :1.; l<>ss than t he payments last year. The formuln wh:!.ch fleteT!!'ines 0ttn"•a 's share :Is hRsecl on fifty per cent of the national cost of :!'edicare multiplied by the populat:l on, the number of people :In Ne..,foundl and.

Recnuse our stanc'tard of service is a b:!t Jess than the n11tionaJ avernF:e consequently He receive a far amount of money. 1'1,:1 s year ,,,e are estimat:fng seventy-five per cent of the total cost frClm Ottaw<t. llut the reason for the difference there is that - the cl:lfference to ~ ·,hich he refers - is that in 1975-1976 the Ontario nepartment of Health transferrec! some of its Medicare cost progr.-s from the Medicare programme to the Hospital Insurance prograll'!l'e and com=e'luently the per capita national average went dotm and tJe lost in fact ~1.2 miJl:lon.

There vas aJso a ~eficit of $360,000 to the roiT'IT1h;s:fon for 1973-1974 anrl a further deficit of $852,000 in 1974- 1'171. ~<T> CHAIP!-'AN: 1'hc hCln. memher for Trin1ty-llay de ~ 1erde. '1'()1·11': : ~ir. I assume that th:fs is the correct heading for this f!jscussfon. I was quite interesterl in the rell'.arks made by the member for >'ount Scio (~'r. I'. 1-!:lnsor)o)I believe,the other night concerning tl ·e ilental needs of the Province. t. 7182

May 10, 1976 Tape no. 2564 Page 1 -mw Mr. Rowe. The han. member can correct me if I am in error in some of the figures that I am going to relate to the House. But as I understand it now there are approximately seventy-seven or eighty dentists in the Province at the present time.- if I can just finish the phrase, the hon. member can correct_mP - and if we had 250 dentists the ratio of dentists per population would be one to 4,000. Is that correct? Is it somewhere along these figures? Anyway it demonstrates a great need for increased numbers of dentists in this Province.

And, of course, we know the problem that Dalhousie has with respect to taking dental students. And the member indicated - and I found this to be quite amazing - that it would cost $40 million to put a dental school in this Province, someWkere in the order of $40 million. So the hon. member,who is a professional dentist,seemed .to indicate to this Committee, Sir, that we are in a crisis situation with respect to dental care in this Province. And I did not know whether I particularly appreciated the member's attitude towards the acceptance of denturists.

At one stage, I believe, he sort of stated that they are with us, they are a fact of life. And it kind of reminded me of the anti-Confederates after Confederation, "We got Confederation so it is a fact of life, so we will have to live with it~' ~ut that fact of life, Sir, is still this, that the denturists are not legalized in this Province at the present time. Sort of a blind eye is being turned to them.

And what I would like to ask the Minister of Health - and probably he might have answered it when I was out of the Committee, Sir, but if he has obviously a quick reminder would be in order - but, you know, what is the status with respect to legislation legalizing denturists in this Province? While I was on the mainland some months ago I happened to meet a denturist in Toronto who was from Manitoba, and it was ]ust through the course of conversation that I found out he was a denturist. And they do not call themselves denturists out there. They call themselves 7183

May 10, 1976 Tape no. 2564 Page 2 - mw Hr. Rowe. dental mechanics, I believe, and they have

an act in Manitoba for what they call dental mechanics. And a dental mechanic, Sir, if I can just review briefly for the Committe, may repair any prosthetic denture or dental plate, fit any prosthetic denture or dental plate, make, produce, reproduce or furnish or supply an upper prosthetic denture or lower dental plate for another person who has no live teeth in his upper jaw or a lower prosthetic denture or lower dental plate for another person who has no live teeth in his lower jaw, or complete upper and lower prosthetic dentures or dental plates, and we can go on through the act.

But, Sir, they do have a reasonable responsibility which presumably would take a tremendous load off the dentists in this Province. Now it may not take a tremendous load off - I do not mean this in a critical fashion. But there are dentists practising in this Province where they have the choice of the pick, where they are sort of operating,like the hon. member opposite who is operating within the confines of this city more or less. Some other dentists are operating within, you know, Grand Falls, Gander or what have you. And there is a long waiting list.

And dentists can pick and more or less choose their patients. I am not accusing that they are picking the richest and more lucrative patients, but they are in thattposition,

whereas dentists who may be practising in more rural sections of our Province obviously would not have the same type of clientele, if you know what I mean. And I would submit ,­ although the member indicated that, I think, it was on1y one tenth of one per cent of his revenue or his income was related to denturists type of work- I would submit, Sir, that in other parts of the Province that the ratio may be far different, that that proportion may be far different for dentists practising outside the Province if he is trying to care for all of the children and all of the people that need dental care in this Province.

And, Sir, I might add that this particular act I think could be almost superimposed right into this Province,

May 10, 1976 Tape No. 2565 MR. ROWF.: ' and as I mentioned they are called dental mechanics.

"But there shall b~ a committ~~ to be known as the Dental Mechanics Committee,consisting of two dentists who are members of the faculty of dentistry at the University of Manitoba - we do not have a faculty of dentistry in this Province so we would obviously have to probably find some reputable, presumably there are reputable dentists who could serve on such a committe'- two dental mechanics-or in this if you want to call them denturists - two denturists and NM- 1 two persons employed in the Department of Health and Social Development-or I guess Social Services possibly in this Province _ to be appointed by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council:• I mention this because the hon, member,who is a professional, when he was speaking to this particular issue, at least left with me the impression that the denturists should be under the jurisdiction almost wholly and solely and completely of the dentists themselves.

And I would like to, I am talking about the hon. member's remarks, I would like to indicate to the Committee on behalf of my colleagues here that I think that would be a little bit narrow, a littl~ bit restrictive,and if the minister is in the process of drafting up legislation for denturists in the Province I would certainly like any such committee 7or any body or bodies that denturists are responsible to would be certainly broader than two or three dentists in the Province and include such people as members of their own profession, if you want to classify it as a profession, and certainly members of the Department of Health and possibly Social Services and possibly some other departments as well.

Probably the minister has

an act or legislation coming in that is far superior to this particlar piece of legislation here and I have only referred to a couple of sections but in reading through it,and I ,just got it in the mail there two or three days ago, it seems to be the type of act that is required in this Province to takethe load off particularly rural dentists and to meet the dental needs of the 7185

'May 10, 1976 Tape No. 2565 NM- 2 'fR. ROHE: people in this Province, I would 1ust like to ask the minister, number one, what is the status of legislation for the practice of denturists in this Province? When w111 it he broup,ht before the House? 1\lhat- I guess it is pretty difficult to ask the minister what is the nature of the legislation before it comes hefor.e us? tfip,ht I ask the minister. if the denturists nrP nut under the responsibility of any group or bodies that it certainly be more broader or broader than the suggestion as indicated by the member for Mount Scio (Dr.

Winsor), if I indeed understood him correctly. MR.. COLLINS : ~r. Chairman, the bon. member for Mount Scio, (Dr. 1./insor), my colleague, will certainly have something to say ,.,hen I am finished. He could now if he wanted to but I would like to respond to a couple of points first, the hon. member for Bay de Verde (Mr.

Rowe) made .• I have said on numerous occasions during the past two or three weeks that as a result of the Select Committee which was established by this House, as a result of that last year a committee was appointed to recommend legislation to cover the practice of the denturists in this Province, whether you call them derturists or mechanics I do not think it means too much, depending upon the

interpretation one puts on that of course. But at any rate, Mr. Chairman, as I said before we do have the legislation practically ready and it is my hope that before this session concludes that we will be introducing a bill,which is a new bill,to govern the practice of denturists in the Province. With regard to the bon. member's statements about dental care, I do not think the legalization of the denturists and the addition of a great number of aenturists is going to have any ~ignificant effect on the dental health problem which we are facing.

The denturists will be able to do something for the person 1~ho is denture -less, that means a person who has no teeth. But in terms of deal.inp: with the very many problems of the young people, the 7186

:-lay 10, 1976 Tape No. 2565 MR. COLLINS: children who are in our schools in terms of preventive measures, the denturists of course cannot get involved in that and this is where the dentist is the only one who can deal with this. And .as the bon. member says, right now most of the dentists in Newfoundland seem to set up practice in the more u~ban centres of the Province.

And NM- 3 there are two reasons for that, Number one is,it is generally found that the people in the more urban centres are more inclined in terms of getting the children in to have fillings, etc., to have preventive measures taken than they are sometimes in the more remote sections of the Province. There is certainly a major educational job to be done there.

And we find very often llOW • .. . that even if we can encourage a dentist to establish in a rural setting, and even with some subsidies, some guaranteed minimum incomes, etc., we have found that it is very difficult for him to generate enou~h business to really make the practice worthwhile, so there is an educational programme necessary. However, the educational programme in itself will not accomplish very much either until we have reached the point whereby we have the dentists to go in the places where they are needed. So there is a twofold problem really.

I would hope, I would not like to put a number of years on it,but certainly I would hope that in the next three or four years we will be able to make some great inroads into the outlying regions of the Province and that is where the real problems are, MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member for MoUn.t Scio. DR. WINSOR: Mr. Chairman, while speaking the other night I made some suggestions, some of them were suggestions from experiences that I have had over my twenty years in dental practice in Newfoundland as to how we possibly could improve the ratio of dentists to our population.

Now the statistics I quoted the other evening were for the year 1974-75 which gave us a ratio of one to 7,700 and it 7187

Mav 10, 1976 Tape No. 2565 NM- 4 DR. WINSOR: seventy-five. I think I may have quoted seventy- ~even but it was a misprint out of my own text. It was seventy­ Uve dentists in the year 1974-75. I got the statisti~s over the weekend from the dental register of the dentists that are registered in 1975-7~ and I am very happy to say that we have made an excellent improvement, We do not have eighty-eight on the dental register, which brings us down to a reasonable ratio of one to 6,000.

Now we have not arrived at Utopia 1and we have got a long ways to go, but when one looks back the last ten years, 1965 we had thirty-eight dentists in Newfoundland and Labrador. In 1975 we had seventy-five, so this is an improvement really of around one hundred per cent. And in this last year we have had an added increase of thirteen new people added to our re?.ister. Now this increas~ has been partly due to two reasons.

One is to the Newfoundland C~vernment Bursary Programme,and this I ima~ine most members here are well aware, This is a programme where the dental student for each of his four years at professional school receives $3,000. For this money he makes a commitment to return to Newfoundland to oractice for three years in an area of his choice but excluding the urban - well of his choice in conjunction with the Minister of Health. A few years ago it was sort of a student would come back and the department would say that we need a dentist in Bur?.eO and if he had received the assistance he would have to go to that area.

This did not work out that well. The department found that people did not stay too long if they were not happy,and right nov it is sort of left up to the individual as long as he goes to an area where there is a need for dentists in Newfoundland, excludinr. St. John's, Grand Falls, Corner Brook and Gander. At present we have only six Newfoundlanders at dental school in all of Canada, four at McGill, and two at Dalhousie in all years. 7188

v,.y 10, (97f; Tape 2566 IB-1 nR. WINSOR: 'l'low the other renson '"hy this improvement over the last r.nupJe of years, T tldnk really shm~s h.o'~ the l'epartment of nealth ,,., trierl over the past few years,and even incluc'ting when the previous ar1mini strntion, thnt there ,.,ns, I think, great co-operation •..r:l.th the r1entaJ people here in the 1'rovince and we all har1 the same oh.1ect:!ve in mind, anc't that ~r11s to sort of improve our delivery system. Rut this recently r1evel~ped recntitment programme has an establishment grant of $10,noo or up to $10,1')00.

Now to clarify this, this does not mean tha.t every r1entist Boing to an un~erc'teveloped area or an area that is sort of under serviced by a dentist is going to get $10,000 for a location grant. !t is up to $1o,noo. Tf he is putting in, say, a modern two roo~ surpery and it is going to cost him $20,000, $25,000 he can get up to $10,000. Then there is the guaranteed minimum :Income which for the three years he :Is under service to the c:lepartment they w:lll subsidize l1i s salary up to these amounts. I am not sure of the exact Sl'lounts at the moment.

The'' are sort of taken from government salary scales. ~<r. r.l"'LLTNS: It depends on hm.• much might be needed to establish a reasonable income in that - PR. WINSOR: Tn that particular locality, right.

Then if a c'tentist is t>Hl:lng to p:o to nn under-serviced area the <lepnrtment will also pay the relocation expenses and this is, of course,for his family and himself, to thP. area. ~0 this 1af't pror.ramrne is really ll'eared to throw a net out arounc't F.urope and in ranarla and the States to get the practitioner t•ho has a] renrly r.raduated to get h:!.m to CO'II'e to Newfoundland tJtth cnti.cements. 'T'he bursary one j_s for,really,our own students to ,;uhs:fdize them through dental school.

No'lo' to Bhl'>w hol•' this has really paid off, of the eighty-eight r~~istered, thirty-nine have rece1ved bursary assistance of the eighty­ e1 rht on the rep1 ster and a further seventeen h11.ve received some other r~vP.rn~nt a~~1stance. t<any of these are located in areas in which it Hnuld be cn'IT'pletely impract:l cal to have a dental practice were it not for the free treat!!'ent prorram!Tle of the department, of the govern~.ent. Now .• 7189

TJI-2 rw. ,,, nr~0 r ' in ·"<l<Hti<m t" tl1E' frr.e trcatT"Pnt - ;mr'! T think '"e shou]cl T"l!ke th:fs P" lnt bPC'.~m<e vr>rv fr•: rcopJ e nre a"are of :! t - in Rrr'1 t:lt"n tr the free trc:'ltl"'Pnt up tn <l"C' c-lC'vrr•, thP fo] Jow:!.np proups nre eligible. 'T'hese "r" rld1r1rf'n rr.,ir1C'nt ~n t"rphan<'!pes, aJl foster chilclren, chilclren r<'rei v·inr tre"tl"Pnt ~'o..- cleft palate Hork, the rehahiJ itat:!on center chi1ilren, ancl BlJ children ur to e:lp:hteen on social assistance of f:1T"il:IP~ on st"ci11l ~~~~:!stance.

Th:ls would provicle treatment for the :mtcri<'r teeth 11nd rep]l!cement of antertor teeth '"ith partials. 'T'hen •m hnve the School for the Deaf, the School for the Rli.n<l, tht' chilr1ren ;,ttenc:1inp: schoo) for the !Tie>ntal)y retarc:1ec'l and Thnt :1~ nine.

T TJf'uli! like to arlc:1 ten her<', hE'r11use T rou] r' not find it in any of the off:! c:l.al recorrls hut d1i1r> T "liS the r:h:!Pf of the <'lent<'!] serv:!ce at thP. .Taner?R.V ••e. sort of hail n continunn~ procltlinr of the government 11nrl ple11clin~, ~'e f:'stahli ~l•e<l tl"PIIt1'1ent <'!hove the cut off of eleven years for kids vrho l'Pcm•se of T"E.'<1 ~c11.l conc1itions - this f~ the hemoph:lli11.c, the cerebral pnl ~y l<itl :In thP. hnsp:lta.l environ,.,ent, 1--.ids with kidney problems and sn on so that •~ P C'ouJ~ prov:l<'!e treatment for thel" up to their s:!xteenth ~re.:~r tmt5J thev vpre out of thP children's hospital.

I'm,, thP extent of treatt::ent varies fraT"' group to ~roup in so!Tie of that r.overl"~e because a!!'ain my owo experience :ln treating l•itls ?.t l'xon l'ouse and rh11 i!rens homes-and the 11'in:lster used the worcl 'trajn~hle~' tor'lay. 'T'hese kids, the trainable kicls "'ere the ones who bernuse 0f the 1 iM:! te<' !Tianpo~rPr we hacl that we f'iive first pr:lor:lty to, "nny of ti'N <e kic1s thllt tbc h<>~t trentment that we cc•uld p.ive was .1ust re,ief of pain antl 1rrfert1on. nf roursP :It :Is J.i.ndtecl largely by n!-fl Hy .,f the (lpnt11l profpssion to cope w:!.th the ilemand.

These r-ronps r.•PrP. not phasert :In by a pre-r'etermi.ned scheclule r,ut were coven"tl harh<"znr<'ly over the years in response t0 pressure from tl1e p<1rticuJar rrouns ~·ho ~rere de11.ling 'dth the problems concernec'l, pa.rtir:u,arlySchool for the neaf anrl the Blind 11.nd so on. Now in 1957, the yenr nfter T ~rac1uatec1 the totaJ amount huclJ:ieted by rovemJOent for trellt1'1ent unrler the dental l1eaJth progr.a1171!'.e T·TaS $35,000. In 1976-1977 7190

Tl'lpe 2566 IB-3 nr>. l.;TNSf'ITl: there is A tre~en~ous increase up to $2,190,000. This prc>vides treat!Tlent for npnro:<dll'ately 40,000 children who are entitled to he seen t~q:J ce a vear. ~Tr-w the rnbUc apathy to~rarcls clental health -and this has fostere<i in NeFfonndl.<md, and J lrnm~ by grmdnR up in the otttports ~y attitude towards ~entistry until I went to university was fostered hv isoJ .1tion plns t'Pe unnv'lil:;obil:lty of dental services. This is pra~ually beinp overcoroe hv colm'unications and other means.

Government has assisted in hr:lnp.:l.nf' dental services to :lsolate<i areas by provi~:lng the free dental treatment and by prov:!.d:l .ng assistance to ~C'ntists ,,,ho •mul d f'O and <'stahlish in these rural areas.

Rut tl1e mNo;t nerJ ecte<i part of our dental prop;rai11J!1e - and T s;d~ this tl,e other night <1t1d I hope that 1<'C ~d. l1 focus ot1 thi.s prnblell' :In the future - l'lnn that :l.s the problem of education and prevention. '!'his, T th:fnl•, ~qith the help of the ~ental hyp::lenist ""d !'lore avai);>b]e manpo•·•er 1111 around, that ~qe hcwe been able to make ~ome inroads :In that partir.ular aspect of dentistry. l''c>w n rmestion "'i'.S askeCI Tuesday eveninF;, last Tuesday £'veninr,, re 1 i remdnJ!' of foreiRO dentists.

T'lent:l.sts arrivinh in r:e,.fnnnn1and Pith a 'II.TJ.S. and n.n.s or a J).}f.TI,wh:fch is a Doctor in l-'eclical nent:l stry,or a fellm•ship in clental snr,renr from a recof(Tl:fze~ 11nivendty, in Australia, nenmat'k, IrPland, New 7eale~ncl, })or,-.·av, S"'eden, r•n1on of South Africa, the tTn:lte~. Kingdom, and the Tlnite~ St:ttes, are eJ.1.p.jble for a te!l'porary pe:nn1t. and this is rene< ·re.i1 vear1y "'hen thr-y are sponsored by the TJepartment of Health • .,.,is is riven ry the NP•·Yfc-undland nental Boarcl.

Now :If they Hant to estahl :Ish pr~ctire after tl,ey have been here for a fe"' years-they v:mt to write the '~ewfound.l an<i nental Jloard examinations, then they :1re freE' to prl'lct ice anV~>-•l,ere in the Island as any other j'lrivate prnr.t 1 tinnpr. The other rruest:lon re 11urp.eo, and thts I have a J:lttle personal interest in. I th:l.nlr :It was back in 1966 when I ~•as presi~.ent of the clPnt~>l assoc:fat:lon and I was doing a bit of flying on the si~e,and a 7191

~·ay J.n, 1'176 Tape 2566 IB-4 n~>. HINSn~: fr:ten~ of mine ha~ a charter service and we taking down the money to start the hank :In Rurpeo, this 1-ras 1966. I think we carried about $200,nQ!) :fn a sinJ!;le enJ':!ne r.essna. That ~ras the time, I· think, I f:l.rst met t'rs. Penny , that ereat lady of the South Coast. At that t:frne we were talkinp and when they found out I was the president of the nental SociP.ty they approache~ me re a dentist in Jlurgeo and ~~ d:fd trv to sort of work with the ~overnment and I have made a few conta~ts of ~ o~~ on the ma:ln1and 1 but we were not successful.

Nm~ th:lnrs have not 1!'1proved. That ~•as 1966 and this is 1976. They still ~o not have a dentist there. And I know there have been attempts ma~e by the mayor - it is a Dr. ralder, I think it is - but the Jatest J have seen on this is that in 1974 the manager of the f:! sh pJ ant adv:l.sed that no off:! ce !!'Pace or living accommodations were ~vailah]e.

This creates problems in the sense that when government 1->rinr:s e-ver, say, f:l.ve or s:lx dentists to look around to see where they 1mnt to locate practice - I think the department gives them a list of places that are uncler-serviced and then they, themselves, in conjunct:lon l·d th the depart went move around and see where they want to set up. This has many social reasons. Jf the dentist has kids of school age, l1e is I'O:f.nr: to ] ean trn.•ards an area which has ~t.ood schools and so forth. Sm!'e peop] e ·~ou]d ~~ant to go in an area ~•here rea] ly there is a lot of lmnt:lng and fishing fac:l .lit:le .s.

So it is really up to the !nd1v1C'ua]. Fhat 1 ffnd is that there has to be a responsibil;f.ty from tl1e CCll!ll!'.tm:lty :Itself. If there are ten places that are vyinr; for ~ental services and three or fClur of these areas already,or the town council and so on prov:l .des an office space, not free, the dentist is prepare~ to pay for. it obviously and also to rent an apartment or buy ~ l!ol!'e. But if 7192

May 10, 1976 Tape no. 2567 Page 1 - mw Dr. Winsor. we get the word that there is not space available, obviously he is going to lose interest in following up that particular community. So I think there has to be a little bit of responsibility on the part of the community to work in conjunction with the department. The department can supply the dentists. The dentist has the choice of where to go. And if the community wants to attract him they have to provide, at least, space for setting up an office, and some place for the chap to live.

Now the prime areas at present that need dentists are Grand Bank, Clarenville, not necessattly in order, but Grand Bank, Clarenville, Stephenville,Crossing, Bonavista, Burgeo, Harbour Breton, Labrador City and Wabush. I think there is already a dentist in Labrador City and Wabush, but one certainly cannot cope with the demand there at all. The minister answered the question re the denturists, and I do not want to get into that other than to say that there may be some difficulty in certain communities if there is a denturist in practise.

If a dentist sees this, and this will cut into his income in a rural area, he will probably tend to go to an area where he can supplement his conservative practise with denture practise. Now the new places filled this past year; Glovertown, Holyrood, St. Josephy's, Trepassey, and we have a second dentist who went into Port aux ~asques, . and now one for Bell Island. So we have made excellent progress, ~rr.· Chairman, in the last three or four years particularly in supplying the dental needs or the manpower problems.

We have a long ways to go, but if we can keep improving at the ratio that we have done in· the last two or three years that it will not be too many more years before a majority of the children and people in the Island will have access to dental services. But I stress again that the community that is applying for dental services certainly has the responsibility to work with the dentists in providing some space for him. So I think, unless there are any questions somebody would like to ask, I will resume mY seat. 7193

May 10, 1976 Tape no. 2567 Page 2- mw MR.. SIMMONS : Mr. Chairman, just a word to remind the minister of some comments I made Friday afternoon which he undertook to respond to. I am wondering what the department might have in mind~in terms of ~king dental services, probably an itinerant, a travelling dentist or two or more who could, on a regular basis, go to some of the smaller communities.

I mentioned Grey River, MacCallum, Francois, that size community, 200 or 300 or 400 population, those communities which are not immediately accessible by road or by regular transportation to larger communities where dentists exist. I think something needs to be done there. That is one category of community I mentioned. The other one, the member for Mount Scio (Dr. Winsor) just referred to, and that is the Burgeo type community. Burgeo has been on the list for a long time,as the member has pointed out, and if the present way of going about things continues,they are going to bT on a list for a long time to come.

I recognize, and I have said to the council in Burgeo that the town must accept some responsibility for taking the initiative to see that the facilities, the residence , the office space facilities are available. But having said that, Mr. Chairman, we all know that town administrations ~end to change from time to time. T)ey are volunteer people, and they each have their turn at bat, and a new crowd comes in, and they cannot be expected to be conversant with every detail. And one of the details that they need to be conversant with here is just how you go about getting a dentist.

And I think there must be some room, and there is certainly some onus on the part of the department, to send someone into those communities, the half dozen or so that the member rmymed off a moment go, send somebody in and sit down with council and say, "Okay ,we may be able to get a dentist, or we are going to have a number of dentists coming over from elsewhere; but when they come you should know that they have the final choice as to where they J!O. And in that connection you should be ready for them'.' Somebody from the department should be helping the town to take the initiative here, 7194

May 10, 1976 Tape no. 2567 Page 3 - 11IW Mr. Simmons. They do not know exactly what they ought to be doing and just a visit from some senior person in the d~partment might well help. One other comment before I sit down, Mr. Chairman• There is a danger - we are all open to this possibility - there is a danger sometimes that we can pat ourselves on the back so hard we are going to break our arms doing so. I do not subscribe and I speak for rural Newfoundland - I do not subscribe to the notion that has been expressed in the Committee recently that we have come a long way in terms of dental care.

For MacCallum, for Grey River, for Francois, for a number of communities that my friend from Placentia could mention, we have not come one inch. St. John's Corner Brook, Grand Falls are just as far away as it used to be, and that is where the dentist is. It even costs more to get there than it used to. So do not tell those people that we have come a long way in dental care in terms of education and prevention and dental care and dentist population ratio, because they are just as far away from the service as they ever were, just as far away.

They still got to get their youngster on a coastal boat and get him into Bay d'Espoir, and then try to connect with a bus or a taxi to get them into Grand Falls to have a tooth pulled, an extraction that for the parent in Grand Falls cost $3 or $5 or $6 or whatever it costs these days,and for the parent in MacCallum it would cost $150. That is what we are talking about. Do not tell those people that we are improving in terms of our dental health in this Province, because for those people we are not improving at all. We are just where we were twenty 1 thirty years ago. The dentist is just as inaccessible to them.

I am not asking the minister to consider stationing dentists in Grey River, but I am asking him to look into the posiibilities of some kind of a programme. I know dentists are scarce. But perhaps, as I suggested Friday, perhaps the minister's department could approach

May 10, 1976 Tape no. 2567 Page 4 - mw Mr. Simmons. one or two or three dentists and say,"Look, would you leave your lucrative or your adequate practise in St. John's one month a year, give us a month a year for the next two or three years; give us the month of August or the month of September or the month of May, approach each of perhaps a half dozen dentists like for say one month, would you do the Southwest Coast? Would you do the Labrador Coast? Would you do the Great Northern Peninsula?" Perhaps that is the approach we have got to take.

Perhaps we do not need a dentist living in those smaller places all the year around or perhaps we do not need them being intinerant twelve months of the year. Perhaps it could be done twice a year in May or November so that these people can at least see a dentist every six months, that kind of suggestion, a kind of an ad hoc approach, but one that might serve the need for the immediate future . If I were a senior official in the minister's department or if I were the minister I could take some consolation from the statistics.

I could take some shelter from the argument that dentists are hard to find, that they do not want Op live in Grey River. That does not extract the tooth for the youngster in Grey River. If the present statistics or if the present trends are not offering any reprieve for the problem let us try some ad hoc soluationa. Perhaps the one I have suggested is one that needs to be taken into accountl Perhaps we can appraach some people to do it on a part-time basis.

I am aware now, and I am thinking of the venture that the father of the Leader of the Opposition got involved in some years ago - I believe there is a parallel there where the doctor goes abroad for a period of time and gives a certain amount of his service. Perhaps we need to appeal to the missionary side of the dentist. Perhaps we cannot put it in dollar terms. You would be surprised. These fellows are already having tax problems,! am ~old. Perhaps you could appeal to the other side of them. Would you do it for one month? I do not know. I am not asking 7196

May 10, 1976 Tape no. 2567 Page 5 - 1llW Mr. Simmons. for donations but I am prepared to do so if that helps to solve the problem. Let us pay them or let us have them do it as their form of a holiday for one year , for one month of the year. I do not know. I am just thinking out loud . But I do get a bit uptight, Mr. Chairman , when I hear people talk about how dental health has improved. 1 supposed if you lived in St. John's all your life it certainly has improved , the availability of dental care has improved.

But talking about the improvements as they affect Grey River or MacCallUIII -and I mention these as being symbolic in representative of other communities of the Province - it is the equivalent of some poor fellow sitting at home, unemployed , ten or twelve children to feed, no regular source of income, and while he finds himself in that situation , probably inadequate housing and all the rest of it:, he sits and fantasizes with the wife about whether they should buy a power biue or a white cadillac. 7197

Hay 10, 197(, Tape 2568 PK - 1 Hr. Simmons: - - ---- That 1s what \Je are talking about here today, we are talking about ho"' great things are in the field of dental care. I tell you it is a fantasy, it is a fantasy for that albeit small percentage of the population, but a very real percentage. And we should be doing more about it then just sitting here fantasing. Mr. Chairman, there is another t~ought that relates, it is not the most popular one that I could express in this Committee, hut dentists are human beings too, and they obviously have a vested i nterest in these matters.

For that reason without indicting any of their motives it would seem to me apart from that element of missionary zeal which one can expect to find in any group, it would seem to me that dentists would have no particular reason, I am thinking in terms of the profit motive now, would have no particular reason to p,et out and hussel to improve the ratio of dentist to population. Does the one general dealer in a community go out and look for three or four other general dealers to come in, and thereby split his business several ways? I wonder if that is a factor in this situation? I wonder, Nr.

Chairman, if we are not looking to the wrong people for leadership in this particular area? And I am not at P.ll being wanting to be unkind towards the dentists, I am not saying that. But he has a pretty blatant vested interest here. Now in government He have all kinds of openess these days about conflict of interest. Perhaps t-~e have the same kind of problem here. Perhaps we have been looking to the wrong group. Perhaps it is not the Dental Association at all we should be looking to, perhaps it is not the practicing dentists at all we should be looking to, to help us solve this particular problem.

Because in the context of what T said a moment ago, in the context of the profit motive, the narrow pr.ofit motive which I recognize is I hope not all that motivates dentists or anybody else, but in the context of the narrow profit motive, perhaps the dentists themselves have no particular reason to improve the dentists, the ratio of dentists of the total population. 7198

~!ay 10, 1976 Tape 2568 PK - 2 Mr. Simmons: Perhaps the government ought to be looking elsewhere than to the dentists themselves for advice on this particular matter. "~en I was involved actively with the NTA we always wanted more parti.cipation in defining who should be a member of the teaching profession in the Province. But I was always scared of the ultimate, the possibility that the professional himself would define completely who could participate in the teaching profession.

There is a parallel here ,I believe, Perhaps we have been doing the taxpayers and the people of this Province an injustice by looking to the professional ~roup,in this case the dentists, looking to the professional group for solutions to the problem, the very nature of the problem being one that the dentist has a very vested interest in. Now, Mr. Chairman, in clueing up J do not say that to be unkind to dentists. I could make the same kinds of comments about teachers or about general practitioners or about any professional ~roup.

They have a vested interested which is real enough, but they may not be able to see the forest for the trees,or indeed to put it another way,they not want to see the forest for the trees. "!R.. CHAIIDfAN (MR. YOUNG): Shall 1008-01 carry? On motion 1008-01 carried. On motion 1008-0~-01 through 1008-04-06 carried. "!R.. CHA _lRMAN: (Mit. YOUNG) : for Fogo. Shall 1008-04-07? The bon. member CAPT. E. WINSOR: Mr. Chairman, can the minister tell the House what arrangements the department has with the mobtle dental clinic in visiting such areas as Fogo Island and other islands?

You know, is there a mobile unit which goes through the Island or is there a dentist stationed there for any given time of the year, ~aybe the minister can inform us? HR. CHAIRMAN (MR. YOUNG) : The han. Minister of Health. HR. H. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, with regard to the mobile dental clinic.we have not been having the luck with that which we thought we might have, and that again derives from the fact that it is very ·- 7199

"'ay 10, 1971'i Tape 2568 PK - 3 MR. H. COLLINS: difficult to find a dentist who is willing to take the clinic over the remote areas of the Province. We did have it in use in P.onavis ta Bay, in G!overtm.m last Fall. We are working with the Janeway Children's Hospital now because of their interest in dealing ~11th the Province as opposed to the urban centre of St. John's only. We are hnpinR that we might be able to get some guidance and some assistance from those people in terms of where that machine will be deployed this SUT'll!ler. The real problem again is getting the dentists to man ·the equipment. CAPT. E.

WINSOR: Does the minister know or can he tell the House how often a dentist visits Fogo Island? }1R. H. COLLINS : ------- Mr. Speaker, off hand I cannot, but my officials are in hearinp, distance and probably they might be able to give me some information which I will pass along to the hon. member. ~_. _C!:AIRMAN (~lR. YOUNG): Shall 1008-07 carry? On motion 1008-07 carried. On motion 1008--08 throur:h 1009-01 carried. Shall 1009-04-01 carry? HP.. E. COLLINS: MT. Ch:dnnan, some of my colleagues will be making an amendment here. I cannot make it.

I am asking the Committee for an additional $500,000 ~1hich we are going to need for the a swine f1u v:~ccine \rhich will be corning on this Fall. ~_._C.!:!_A.!_RMAN (llr. Young): The hon. member for Twillingate. Hr. Chairman, of course I will vote for that insofar as my vote can do it, the minister will get his additional half mtllion dollars, because I am sure we do not want a terrible epedimic of s•dne :f_nfluenza in Newfoundland or any other kind of :Influenza. Incidentially the swine growers, the swine ratsers in Ne~>foundland are furious, not only in Newfoundland but all across Canada - 'TJ>..

DOODY: At the name. ----- - at the name, swine influenza. It has got nothing to do with swine any more than with sheep or goats or pigs or horses 7200

May 10, 1976 Tape 2568 PK - 4 o~ anything else. We do not want ~hat kind of influen~a or any other kind, and if a half milli911 dollars will help to prevent it,to head it off that is just fine. But I cannot help, I just cannot help reminding the Cot11111ittee that the total vote of this Department of Health, this very important Department of Health, this one or the='two or three most iinportant departments Ln the whole public service of this Province al!king ils for $194 millions, I think it is, $194 millions this year? ~. S. NEARY: Yes, S.ir. MR.

SMALLWOOD: It is asking us to give them for this one year alone iii! amount just al out: equal to all the money that the Department of Health received in the first sixteen years combined. In the first year of Confederation it was $4,900,000, it was the $&me the next year and then it rose $5.8 million, $6.4 million, $7.8 million, $8.3 ~llion, $8.8 million, $9.8 ~llion, $11.6 million, $13.6 million, it was $15.5 million fifteen years ago, then $17 million, thetJ. $18,5 million, the $19.5 million, then $22.75 millions and then $25.5 millions. In the sixteenth 7201

May 10, 1976, Tape 2569, Par;e 1 -- apb ~IR. SMALLWOOD: year, that is what? - that is twelve years ago. In the sixteenth year the grand totalwas $25.5 million. And in those sixteen years, Mr. Chairman, the Government of Ne,vfoundland spent a p,rand total of $200 millions. In sixteen y~~rsl Now this one year, this present year now, it is $194 million, and in fact, a bit more because the minister wants another $.5 million to fight the Swine Influenza.

As we vote these necessary sums of money is it not just a little bit sensible, as we add them up, one department after the other, Education $264 million, Health $194 million, $194.5 million now with the new $.5 million added- MR. DOODY: There may be SOllie cost recovery_ on that one, MR. SMALLWOOD: That may well be, but there will still be a grand total net amount that the government will want to carry on the public service and extend it some in the present year.

I do not know if the hon. members' blood is curdled at all, or chilled, if their minds are disturbed, but it is just beautiful to be here voting a half million for this,a quarter million for that, and $194 million for Health, and $274 million for Education, and $150 million for something else. But, Mr. Chairman, there are going to be some long faces and tears shed in this House and in this Province before too long. MR. DOODY: Mr.

Chairman, this subhead, as indeed many of the subheads that the hon. the member for Twillingate has commented on, is a very reasonable and accurate summation of the facts that we are spending a tremendous amount of money. There is nobody here in this hon. House who is not aware of the fact that we are spending a great deal of money, far more money than we want to spend. The problem that we have, Sir, or the problem that this House and this Province has,is where to make the appropriate cuts.

If hon. members want to cut out any programme, whether it be the dental care programme for the children or the rather unfortunately named Swine Vaccine Programme, then hon. members have that option. 7202

May 10, 1976, Tape 2569, Pale 2 -- ~pb MR.~O~Y: But unfortunately, Sir, it is not as simple as that. There are certain services and programmes that the people of Newfoundland feel that they are entitled to as Canadian citizens and which we are doing our best to provide. Now the cost is horrendous. There might very well be long faces. I can assure the bon. member and bon. members opposite, and indeed all bon. members of the bon. House that there have been many long faces for a great many months in Finance and Treasury Board over this budget and over these programmes and over these policies.

The problem in not in seeing ~ the problem: the problem is in finding a solution, and that is what I would appreaiate hearing from time to time as we go through the estimates. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Chairman, the $194.5 millions that the government are asking for for ~ublic Health is not enough. Instead of $194 million, I am sure the minister would like to have another $50 millions added to that. And I doubt if another $50 million were added to it that it would be enough. MR. DqQQ!_:_ It is not. MR. SMALLWOOD: It would not be enough. MR. DOODY_:_ It is not enough.

M!_~MALLWOOD: It would not build the additional hospitals we must have. Now we are not going to have them, but we must have them. MR. DooDY: It would not maintain them. MR. SMALLWOOD: - --- --- The additional hospitals are needed at Clarenville, and an· extension at Grand Palls, and the big new one on the Burin Peninsula, and then the operation of them. What is the ratio? ~IR. DOODY: In about three years, or two and-a-half years , the capital cost is spent again in operating them. MR. SMALLWOOD: Exactly. And then that goes on indefinitely year after year and thereafter. MR. DOODY: And it gets shorter. MR.

NEARY: It depends on the inflationary costs? 7203

May 10, 1976, Tape 2569, Page 3 -- apb MR. DOODY: Yes. That is right! Time gets shorter. MR. SMALLWOOD: I agree with the minister. The Minister of Health cannot ask for less than $194.5 million. He cannot ask for less if he is going to make any kind of a crack at, any kind of a stab at meeting the needs. Now it is not going to meet the needs, it will take a lot more than that. The Minister of Education asked us for $274 millions. You were over a quarter of a billion for education in one year. Aad as I said when we debated it, it is not enough, it is not going to meet the needs.

And there is not, I do not suppose, in all these estimates, the government in any department, unless it is the Premier's office and one or two bits of luxury around, you know, this Chamber, this House, what the parties get, what the members get, except for a few things like that, I do not think that the government have asked for one dollar more than is needed. In fact, they have not asked for all the money that is needed but they have asked for a lot of money they have not got. They have asked for money.

They have asked in this Committee and later on they will he asking the House to vote the money to spend the money that they have not got and are not going to have. MR. DOODY: MR. SMALLWOOD: MR. DOODY: We will have it. The government have not got the money. We will have it. MR •. SMALLWOOD: No,the government will not have it. They are going to add $270 millions to the debt this year. Now they are going to add more than that. Over a quarter of a billion in one year added to the indebtedness of the Province, They are going to ask more than that. Well now, if they cannot borrow more are they going to tax more?

How can the Hinister of Finance say, "Oh we will have it. We will get it." The minister will not get it. The government have not got it and they are not going to have it, but we are going to vote the money to them. They ~Till ask us for it and we will agree. We will vote for it. We may even have suggestions. I have heard a few suggestions already on this side of the House here 720·t

May 10, 1976, Tape 2569, Page 4 -- apb MR. SMALLWOOD: where it should be more, and asking the ~overnment to made it more. There is no suggestion from any quarter in this House from anyone I know of, or reducing. Now, of course, we have not come to some of the districts where hon. members might have some fun suggesting reduction, but that will be largely a bit of politics. MR. DOODY: The Minister of Health's salary was in trouble. MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes, but that was not done, that was not suggested as a means of saving money, that was<ltakin.g a little sl~ipe at the minister.

I did not take it very seriously and I am not sure that any one else did. But when we come to some other - no, we will nDt, will we? It will be all over with. MR. NEARY: ----- That is right! MR. SMALLWOOD: When we get Fisheries - tfR. NEARY: We will have four hours and nineteen minutes as at six o'clock this evening. - MR. SMALLWOOD: Well then, we will get to Fisheries,! hope, because the minister's heart will be broken if he does not have a chance to explain and champion his estimates for Fisheries.

But that is about all, Four hours in a province where Fisheries - have been the heart of the Province for nearly five hundred years, in that province we are going to have four hours to debate Fisheries. MR. NEARY: We may not. We are still on Health. MR. SMALLWOOD: Well, we will be though with Health shortly. If we keep on with Health it will become a very unhealthy condition in this House. It is all very sad. On motion amendment to increase 1009-04-01 hy. $500,000, carried. On motion 1009-02 through to 1015-06, carried. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the member for St. John's So.uth. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Chairman, I think under this Heading comes the cut in hospital beds. Would that be correct? The proposal 7205

May 10, 1976, Tape 25f>9 , Page 5 - - apb ~~- Ct!ILLINS: is that 200 acute hospital beds .should be closed this year. N·ow we have heard the sug.gestipn in the House,and we have heard it here again today, that perhaps the govl)!rmnent is not tak:i.ng the costs of services seriously, and that costs are going up without really much due attention p.ut to them. I ttould suggest, Mr. Chairman~ that cutting 200 acute hospitals beds, after all the struggle this Province has put into getting our present number of acute hospital beds together, to ~t that by 200 this year is certainly taking the I!Ultter very seriously, 7206

May 10, 1976 Tape no. 2570 Page 1 - mw Dr. Collins. and I certainly agree that this had to be done because some sort of dramatic gesture had to be made because of the ctitical financial state of the Province. But nevertheless I am sure all han. members will understand that this is going to cause tremendous difficulties, and tremendous hardships for the health care system in this Province. Probably it will be particularly hard on certain institutions, one that I am personally associated with will find it extremely difficult to carry on its activities with a d!minished number of beds.

But despite that, as I say, this had to be done. The administration would have been neglectful if it had not taken some gesture along these lines. Now the minister when he spoke the other evening made a plea for flexibility in the system, and this has much to do, of course, with the federal attitude towards our health insurance and hospital insurance schemes. And unless the federal people do change, do become more flexible, we are going to be in increasing difficulties.

There is flexibility 1 or at least there could be flexibility in the scheme as it is, and the closing of beds whilst as I say is a stopgap,dramatic measure, it is not one that leads to much flexibility in terms of the hospitals that have to deal with the cuts. Flexibility could be brought into the system by schemes and plans and activities to take care of uncontrollable expenditures in the present system, because I think there are uncontrollable expenditures in the system. I say that rather than waste, because waste is an unfortunate term if we apply it to our health care system.

It implies that money is thrown away for no good purpose. That is not the case. I would think that one would.be hard put to say that any dollar spent on health services is a wasteful dollar. But Devertheless one certainly can say that many of these expenditures are uncontrollable, or uncontrolled. There are uncontrolled expenditures in all aspects of it, MCP included. We are only dealing here with hospital services. I would like to just use an analogy. For instance if one went into a supermarket, and you could just pick things 7207

May 10, 1976 Tape no. 2570 Page 2 - mw Dr. Collins. off the shelf and put them in your basket and go home, this is not necessarily wasteful. You certainlv could use them all and probably use them to good benefit. But nevertheless it would be a very uncontrolled way of filling your money and similar needs. In hospitals the uncontrolle~ expenditures includes services such as laboratory and X-ray expenditures.

And to give an example perhaps I could just quote very briefly a few figures, and these could be duplicated in many places, a few figures that came out of the United States in 1970~I think it was,and a study was done on 855 patients over a three month period who had an average hospital stay of fourteen days. In that fourteen days there was an average of sixty-nine tests carried out with a cost per patient of $469. That is almost a quater of the total hospital bill. And in this study the people carrying out the study felt that these costs were too high.

They felt that they were not sufficiently controlled, and they did something about it and subsequently showed that such costs ~auld be diminished. Similarly in certain procedures going on in the hospital care system 7there are uncontrolled expenditures there.

I might mention one that is a'~ery favourite one these days, and perhaps unfortunately, for instance, in tubal ligations in the female in the childbearing period of her life, tubal ligations have gone up very dramatically in the last numbers of years,so much so that they are occ~pying - patients having tubal ligations - are occupying a very high proportion of gynecologic beds now.

Now none of these procedures - and there are similar ones like that - none of these procedures can be said to be unethical or wasteful, but they are certainly not controlled in terms of putting them in the context of the total health delivery package. Similarly - as I beli.eve it was mentioned by one of the han. members - in medications,the expenditure on medications, on drugs and so on are essentially 9r very largely uncontrolled. By uncontrolled I mean that no one really knows how much a particular course of medication costs. No one really 7208

May 10, 1976 Tape no. 2570 ' Page 3 _!lr. Collins; knows how much money is being spent for medications on a particular patient or on a particular group of patients. And finAlly on admissions: There are certain uncontrolled expenditures in terms of admissions. I will not labour the subject. Now it is all very well just to point out these matters but what do we do about it?

I would like to offer to the minister some suggestions, and I am sure the minister will he receptive to these because I am sure the minister does not think that closing - I have it on good authority from him - that he does not think that closing acute hospital beds is the end-all and be-all of the cost accounting of the health system. This is, as I say, is just an interim dramatic measure. There are other things that have to come in. We cannot keep these beds closed.

If we were to keep these beds closed it would mean that we are now putting a stop to the development of hospital services in this Province, which,. of course, no one has in mind at any stage. But suggestions as to control our expenditures would include cumulative patient accounting. Now all that means that everything done to a patient is known at the time, is written down somewhere 1 and people can see what that cost is. This is nothing new, nothing dramatic. It used to be done before hospital insurance came in.

Every patient who went into a hospital, anything that was done on him, anything that was ordered on him was immediately put on his bill, and at the end he had to pay that bill, and he could see exactly what was done and what it cost him. Now this has not been the practice since hospital insurance came in. It was not required to be done. It was not required of the hospital, and it was certainly not required of the physician. At no time was it required of the physician. And, of course, it was not demanded by the patient.

The patient had no particular interest in this, because now all his expenditures were out of someone else's pocket apparently, certainly not immediately out of his own • "'"n9 u.u

r.Hay 10, 1976 Tape no. 2570 Page 4 - mw Dr. Collins. A second suggestion would be that we need guidelines now for the treatment of many conditions. In former days the treatment and the management of every condition was very closely scrutinized by the patient and by his doctor and by his family. And decisions were made as to how this treatment should go ahead, how this management should go ahead. That scrutiny want out the window when the hospital insurance and similar schemes were brought in.

We now need to bring something back to replace it and one of the suggestions is that we should have guidelines for management of conditions. In that study I mentioned a little earlier this was one of the moves that were made as a result of that. They brought in guidelines which did hold things in check. And a third suggestion ·would be that our health services now are composed of three components. There is a service component, there is a teaching component, and there is a research component. These all have their legitimate aims, and certainly their costs.

But at the present time very often they are all poured into the one pot. For instance,you could have a patient in hospital -we are dealing with hospital services here - you could have a patient in hosjital, part of his management will be the condition that he has and the h0pe of curing it or improving it, but also some of his stay in hospital is related to teaching practices, and some of the costs of his hospital stay are related to the teaching process. And in the same way the research aspects of health care in this Province have to do with that patient's stay in hospital.

But these costs are not allotted at the present time very clearly in one direction or the other. They t~nd to overlap and accordingly the cost tends to be uncontrolled. So I hope,and I certainly know that the minister hopes this also,that in the future we will be going along the line of 7210

May 10, 1976 Tape no. 2570 Page 5 Dr. Collins. getting some measure of control back in to hospital costs rather than just blanket closing down of services which, although it has to be done this year, is a stopgap measure and certainly not one to cure the total situation. 7211

t'L"'ly 10, 1976 Tape no. 25 71 Page 1 - mw HR. "'URPHY: Would the hon. member permit a question before he takes his scat? I am wondering, Mr. Chairman - and in view of this ~nd in view of Medicare, and we hear so many talks about rip-nffs by doctors under Medicare, and we just he:trd a doctor now ~ive us a few words on his thoughts on great costs that have been built into Medicare - I am wondering ~·muld the doctor give the House some idea of how possibly we ~s laymen or this House as a group of laymen, could possibly look into this' thing?

Does he feel that there should be an investigation in the area of supplies or this type of thing? I was very much interested in his remarks, and I am just wondering wh:'tt the thoughts would be on that1 DR. COLLINS: Well, I was not talking specifically of Medicare here, because we are not considering medical services under this r~rticulRr heRd in~. We are talking of hospital services, but the srune thine ~••ould apply.

I would say that information is the first thing that one has to get so as to know what the right move to mnke is. fnd T would suggest that, as I mentionPd, accumulative patient accounts is the first bit ::>f ir.forma.tion we <lo need. We have 'to see how much individual or particular illnesses, particular types of patients are now costing, which we do not know. They are all in a large ~6t, and it is very difficult to separate one from ti1c other. We have to know almost on an individual basis,or certainly on a classification basis what our present costs are.

And on the basis of that information, I think one could 1nake suggestions and moves so as to Lring the costs more in line with what we are capable of spending. ~1R. ~tuRP!IY: ~!R. CHAIPJ~AN: Thank you, doctor. On motion 1015-06-01 through to 1015-07-04 carried. Order, please! 7212

}lay 10, 1976 Tape no. 2571 Page 2 - mw ~ fR. Cl!AirulAN : The han. member for Carbonear. HR . R. HOORES : I would like just to pass, Hr.Chairman, a few couuncnts on the Carbonear Hospital. First of all I would like to thank th~ ~1inister of ilealth. Of the eleven ministers that I have submitted "!l"ltten questions to~the Minister of Health is one of three who has answered all the questions that I have asked, and it is upon the answers to these questions that I have based most of my information today. Nr.

Chairman, it has taken twelve years for two governments to construct the Carbonear Hospital - twelve years, seven of the former administration,and five and one-quarter or five and one-half of this administration. Today the Carbonear Hospital stands as a monument to the former Minister of liealth (Dr. Gus Rowe), and he should receive today from me, as the present member for Carbonear, every iota of credit that he deserves.

The man, I understand, worked his heart out for this situation, and today 40,000 people which the Carbonear General Hospital will service should give that man every accolade that is humanly possible. But as well as a monument to Dr. Gus Rowe, Mr.Chairman, it also stands as a monument to government procrastination. The original and preliminary studies on the Carbonear Hospital were done in 1964 or 1963. I attended -I think at that time I was fifteen or sixteen years old - the first public meeting on the Carbonear Hospital at the town hall in Carbonear.

Shortly after that the former llinister of Health at that time, now the han. Minister of Mines and Energy and the formEr Premier, who is now the member for Twillingate (Hr. S~o1allwood) arrived in Carbonear and turned a sod. HR. NEARY: What about the Leader of the Opposition? HR. R. MOORES: Roughly fourteen years later, after the preliminary studies, the Carbonear Hospital was now approximately three weeks from its official opening. I understand it is now completely ready. 1-!R. COLLINS: You are talking about an official opening? Mil.. R. ?!OORES : Yes, right. .... 7213

~1ay 10, 1976 Tape no. 2571 Page 3 - lliW :m. R. flOORES. I understand everything is ready. The furniture is in. Not only do I understand it, but I have witnessed it. I have been on every floor and every room and every corridor. I have been escorted around most cordially by the project supervisor. And it is one of the most beautiful hospitals in all the nation. No doubt about it. It is one of the mo·st beautiful hospitals in all the nation. But let us just remark for a few minutes on the length of time. Fourteen years ago a preliminary study suggested that a 135 bed hospital be constructed in Carbonear.

Today a 135 bed hos?ital is to be opened. My advice to the Minister of Health and to the government is that they should start thinking immediately now about an extension to it, right now.

Because if the people of this Province and the people of Canada continue to conceive of health services of hospitalization in terms of tradition and custom the Carbonear General Hospital is now obsolete, and has been for five or six or seven years before the first nail was ever driven into it. ::y interest in this is twofold, not only for the health reasons involved, but also because it is the largest employer, the largest industry in the whole district. It will employ, I understand, permanently on a twelve month basis, :!65 people.

If one excludes the four or five month's tenure of the local fish plants, then that makes it the largest industry. I am happy for Dr. Gus Rm~e. I am happy for the present Minister of Health. I am happy for the people of Carbonear district, and the people whom the hospital will serve. SOME liON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ~m. R. HOORES: Mr. Chairman, with every good comment comes a had one, and I am sure the Minister of Health does not want to hear this one. You can put up a building five times better than the one you have in Carbonear now. You can equip it five times better.

But unless you have the doctors, the skilled professionals, the knowledgeable people to perform the operations, the services, then 721ft

!~ay 10, 1976 Tape no. 2571 Page :1R. R. HOORES • your hospital, the gtructure, the physical structure and the equipment is not worth a damn. In answer to a question on 4 - mw Tuesday, l:arch 9, No. 641 on the Order Paper, the !tl.nister of Health gave me information which indicates that the post-operative mortality rate, that is the number of people who die after operations in Carbonear is fourteen times as high as the provincial lowest. k1d it is five times as high as the provincial average, In Nazi Germany they would probably be referred to, at least in historical terms, as butchers.

Now I asked the question to the hon. Minister of Health not facetiously. I asked · it because a number of people in the Carbonear area were requesting that I find the information. Just how do the doctors at that hospital rate with other hospitals in the Province? And there are the figures. Fourteen times as high as the lowest in the Province, and five times the provincial average. Those figures speak far themselves. Now the present Minister of Health is no more responsible for this high post-operative mortality rate than I am. So let us not talk politics. Let us wash our hands of it.

My suggestion to the present ~~nister of Health is that there be a public enquiry into the causes of this high post-operative mortality rate. ~~y should people in Carbonear die on the operating table or after an operation when they can come to St. John's and have chances fourteen times higher that they will survive?

Now there are two reason why I want a public enquiry: One,to find out that,and I would like the public enquiry undertaken by the medical sector of the RCMP, because there are three professions in the world that are known notoriously for their internal protection, the medical profession, the legal profession and the Mafia, notwithstanding, of course, the political profession is made up of all three. 7215

Tape 2572 IB-1 "'T" ~ n. "'OnPt-:~ : -·-------- ~'r. rha;nn;m, T hope the press ~vill p:ive this statement as much coverage "'" it rP.serveR. l'or yearR now I have personally told my parents that if tr:'lvf'Jl inr thronrh thf' c'1str:lct J get hit with a car. or someth:lng, :If T c1'!n '""ke it to ~t. John's to send me, not to let the butchers :In r.1rhone:1r .o-et at Jl1e. ":! th n post-operative mortal:!.ty rate of fourteen t iJilP.S the provind 1'11 J owest - ani! I am not ashamei! to say th:l.s - if any mewhero; on the opposite 'liile are shaking their hear, you do not have to ro to r1'!rhonenr, T ,1o.

T have parents there who have to r,o to that l1osp1 tal • T have frteni!n who h1'!ve to go to it. Tf those doctors are no good, if thev are helolv 1vhat professionals should be, then they s~on] <l not be there. 'low these f1 gures do not lie. These fir;ures <1r0 <leteTJ!11ne<1 by the same variahles and the same invariables in a stat:lst:lcal sense as thev l·mnld apply to all the other hospitals in the l'rov:lnce. ~o i!o not give me any bunkum about this variable :!_s not the f'<Jme :In ~t. John's as it wo,uld be in St.

Anthony or Ba:le Verte some- Tbey are >~ll <letermined by the same 111athematical formulae. /md rarhonear juRt happens to he the highest in the Province. If snJilethinr.; soon is not done about :l.t - and T nnclerstand there is at lf'M1t snMr:>tldnf he1np: tlone, T tmc1erstand no~• thnt the mecl:l.cal school of the l.tnive.rRitv fini!s it ~ost promptftucle to nm< access the oper,.tinnF< hP.fore they 1<re performe<l in Carbone:.r.

So von put up your builc11ngs, put them up another seven stortes hi.rher <mel put heart l!lachines and lung machines and everyth:l.ng el s0 :In tl'e"', hut you leave those roc tors there ancl von are cloinp.; the · renple at that hosp:ltal "'endcee a cl:!.!';E'erv:lce and an :Infamous, tgnoTl':l.nious, nefarious servire. Yr. ~"haiTYI'an, thank you very much. The hon. ''jn:l ster of Health. T re'rt::'l'ln]y c<1nnot confirm those fignres. I presu!'le t'"' fir:nrPR tire '1nn. ~cro"rr refers to is :In response tC' a question.

I w:lll certa:lnly have to look that up l·<'ranRc T c.~nnot Jll:1h" :1 ,t,tement on it at this present t i!l'le. T. would '"1vc tn sre the fir,ure"' :.r-nin. There p,oocl be a lot of reasons, a 72111

"nv 10, 1976 Tape 2572 TB-2 rnJ , LIN~ : l'.nt C"ert.'lin]" it :1 s ~orne thin~ that T <>HI h?.ve to look at. nn T"ot ton suhl•ea~s 1015-07-05 to 1015-07-0CJ carr:lerl. Tl•e l1nT'. l!lell'l,er for P.urin-J'lacenti a. rP!!' T 11. : "r. rhniT7'1,-.n, on 101.5-07-10 before T cl'ln c-.o"''!lent on H T Fcmlcl l :Ike tn ~-no,,• inst Phat it is. Ts thnt !!'Oney vote~ fnr ~owe e-,.:ist:fnr; hnspit11l on the pen:l .nsula, one of the three ex:fstinp, hospi.tRls thPre,rr :Is H in connect:l .on with a hospital that He hope to hni J d, the p,overmnent hopes to butld, that is not bu:ll t up there? PT' • CHAP:I.VAN : The hon.

":lnister of Health. '"' . rnLL DlS : The bon. member refen to 1015-07-10. Par,e 63, yes. ' "' roLL Tl'!S : Th:tt is funds for the planning of the Burin Peninsula hospital, l'r. rJ,a.irman. ~·r. rha:l T!'lan, J am p:rateful to t't>e minister fClr telJ :lnp. I"P ,.,hat the vnte T-r~t.s. J Pll.S not sure. ~·r. rhai.rrnRn, I c11nn.ot sta.nrl np :mel t11.llr. tn thi.s hCl!"pitaJ that h;t!" been looked for, heen sought for a Jonr tiMe ;on~ C'.nll'C to the happy conclus:lnn that the hem. member <·•hn just snt cln•-m il:ld in reference to the Carbonea..- hospital.

"r. rl •11irm11n, about ten years apo~I th:lnk it was,,.,hen a conmdttee ~7as fnrmecl on the Rur:ln T'en:!.nsula, about the center of the Burin l>eninsula, in the ray T. 'Arrent-"ushoon area, to approach the r,overnl"!ent seeking, or to hl'lve erecterl there another hospital e<]tdvalent or live the ones rrf0.rrer' to 1'15 the cottare hospitals.

The co!'1l":lttee was comprised of r"opJc frnm T'nRhnnn to Paradise, I think, on the '•'est side of P1acent:la "·"Y :mrl frnJT' f-Ry L '.~n~ent area to Ten:ancev:llJ e on the South s:l.rle of T'ortune ~:ty on up l·lest tn some point well out in Forttme l'-ay, almost ro 1'ennJ t11re R;oy, T tl1ink. !\t that time there "'ere people in Fortune l1:1v 't<•ho ~,,ere, T think, Inn m:lles frow a hospHal l'!n<l h•o-th:fr.tls of that hnd to he hy ho"t. And the Bur:fn Peninsula, of course, there just "'7as not ronm l'lt the cotta,e hoRpita]s to look after that area.

That coiJII111.ttee,,.h:fch. ~ms headec1 or ch11i.red hy 'l'everenrl Father Penney, now His Excellency Bishop Penney, made a thorough survey 7217

"'tV 10. 1976 Tape 2572 IB-3 '1'. r.ANNTNC: " thorouph research of the area, presented " p.oor:1 report, givinp. the number of patients, what it costs per annum. It was really a thorough, well made out, a lot of work spent on it, report. That co111mittee stayed intact. Tt chanpecl the chairroan, changed some of the personnel. But Jatet: on \,•hen the icle;q of regional hospitals came to the floor,that cnmrnittee ci'lrt::!ec'l on, anrl I think brought their report up to date. They h~>.ve ~>.ppro11.che~ the government here t~·ro or three ti.w.es.

J.ast year, vr. rha:1!1'1an, :In August of last year, their hopes '~ere pretty h:l rh on the Bur:l.n PeninsuJ a for getting a hospital. They p,ot a pro~i~e from the covernment sometime before the election, " promise thi'lt ••e are going to build two regional hospitals up in that area, one :In r.hrenv:l l le ;qnd another at Salt Pond. in the cl:!.strict of Ilnr:ln-Placentia Pest.

I clo not knm~ how far they went in Clarenville, what they have done do~ there,hut about a week or so before the elect ton there ~vas a heautiful platform built, a substantial platfom, the b:lr, not :Ices up on it, "The Site Of The Burin Peninsula District ~losp:lt~>.l", I think it was called, very larp:e letters, well done, a he;qutlfnl p),.tform ready for the rais:lng of the sod. But sol!'ehow or <mother they C':lrl ne-t get around to it. did not turn up to raise the sod. When the elections came they Rut anyr··ay there is a bip: notice there and it is still there intact. F.ven the vanclals haw~ not touchec1 it.

It looks gooc1 ~•hen you ;>re pass:lnf' :1Jcmp:. 'J'he onJy th:lng :l.s that to the people of the Burin T'en:lnsnl a lvho 1 ivP- 2f'IO miles frol!1 a hospital and lvho witness time and t imP ;~r,a1n (1<'aths up therC" because there i!' not an adequate facility, tn them tt cloes not look so good. It was another promise, another Tory proll':lse - there have been hundreds of them !'lade - to fool the people. \lel], ~'r. r.hai!1'1~tn, I can assure thls House this much in "'Y t• J Pnt'~-three years up there I cl:l d not allow anybody or d:ld not have ~nyhn~y put up ~ny pro!'l:lse ~bout anything.

For the whole twenty-three yearF - l'r. rha:l .rman, I woncler :If I could have a little silence. I am one nf those who "'hen anybody :1 s tal kine out loud, somehow or another T can str;~y from my thnur:ht of conversat:!.on. 7218

'":ty 10, 1976 T:tp~ 2~72 l' rne r , plto~ase ~ T nr l'IIITC' the l'on . mcrthers w:ll ~ tnkc heecl of th e hon. mei"I,C'r for Burfn-l'lacentiR 1~est'!l (~r. r.annjnr.) request. I"'. 1".,\N:-ITNr.: l'r . rha:I.TI"an, 1 WlS s11yinr. t hat tn t'l~enty-three years in th1~< nouJ>e, tPPnty-thrP.~ year:<~ representinr the ~istrict of Placent ia '·'""t Fir~<t , ancl recentlv 1\ttrin-"lacent:la He ~<t , T have neve r once in any l'lcctfon , before or after elPct:ll'ns or bet1.reen elect1nns , eve r came out :mel 11':t~E' 11 promise to the pee-p](' of Placentja Pest .

I never uRed in An eJection, ncvPr once ~:lrectly pr oMised that ve shall ~et this , I a~ roinr. to r,et th:!l" if you rut f!lE' fn . So to the people up t here , Mr. rhaiTI"'\n,••hen trey "'ent sn far Rs tn put up the ptatfoTt!l and the b;l.r noti r.c> 1u~>t hpfnre, then :1 t ..-as follot~ed just a few Heeks before, pt>rhnl's A month before w.ft" a p:lec r of l'tar.h:fnery , a Httl e b:lt of l't(lchfnery tuTn:lnsr up there and a fe-:.r trucl<s - 7219

May 10, 1976 Tape 2573 PK - 1 ~1r. P . Canning: they went in and they spoiled a very scenic site ,,a beautiful site for a hospital or for any builaing, any public building or any building, a beautiful site. They went in and took the mud off it, they dirtied up the roads, an awful state there, around Salt Pond, around the Trade School while it was on, and immediately after the election the machinery disappeared, disappeared from the site. Mr. Chairman, it is not • habit of mine to accuse the government directly of trying to fool the people, for I am now accusing them of misleading the people there.

They knew at that time that they were not going to go ahead with the hospital. They knew or they should know that this government could not afford to go ahead with the hospital. But, Mr. Chairman, I got great satisfaction out of it, personal satisfaction, that I had been involved in this House of Assembly for twenty-three years, and I had seen the people of Placentia West, the people of the Burin Peninsula being informed, being knowledgeable and understanding enough to know that placard that went up there Nas a fake. It was trying to fool them.

I was some r,lad that our people - because how often they were fooled, how often they believed, they wanted things so badly and the need was so great that they would not let themselves do anything but believe, they were going to be helped and they were told they were going to be helped. But, Mr. Chairman, I was glad we had come to the point wqere it "as no good for politicians going out in this Province any more and making promises.

That day is over, because despite the fact it was extremely, a very large sign, and the platform was ilior the purpose of talking to the people when the sod would be turned, did not fool the people. Election day, Hr. Chairman, showed that I can tell you, not even the people in the immediate area did not believe it. They did not vote for a false promise. Mr. ~hairman, I know that now tt is no good for me asking the government to go ahead with this hospital this year, because they have not got the money. They have cat down on beds, they have already cut down on 200 beds. And, Mr.

Chairman, I am going to repeat what I ?220

Nay 10, 1976 Tape 2573 PK - 2 Nr. Canning: repeated here hefore~that people are continually dying in that part of Newfoundland because they are not near St. John's. Every year- I made that statement here before,! was on the government side and T had the courar,e to get up - and I am glad that the member for St. John Is F:as t o~r. Marshall) sort of follows my trend. he has the courage to get up over there - I ~tot up on that side of the House and made that statement, I got outside of the House and went on the air and made the statement. Mr.

Chairman, the next morning when the radio went on you ' never heard such a slating as I got from the doctors at the hospitals on the Burin Peninsula, and the mayors of the Burin Peninsula, all of them expect one. I was making politics. I did not know what I was talking about. The medical proJession came out.

I did not know what I was talking about, and they were going to have a meeting, a private meeting, the medical profession of Newfoundland, and they were to come out the next day atid they 1~ere goin~ to do - what they were going to do, I suppose they were going to ma~e a liar of me, or say or prove that I was wrong. Mr. Chairman, I gave specific examples of people ~1 ho had died in specific areas. The medical profession had their meeting, Mr.

Chairman, but the next day we heard nothing about it or nothing about it since, because when they went into the meeting, being doctors of the Burin Peninsula if they were represented, I guess they were, they knew darn well that 01hat I had said was the truth, and they could not prove otherwise. And, Mr. Chairman, I was not glad, I was saddened I suppose of the fact that a few weeks ago on television one night when one very prominent doctor was asked <lid he believe that the people who had lost their lives on the Burin Peninsula for the lack of proper medical facilities, he said, yes.

I was glad my point was proven, but I was sorry to even then find out it 1~as true. Now, Mr. Chairman, what I would like to know - AN liON. MEMBER: That hospital is not going to be started this year. 1m. CANNING: Yes, I know. I know that hospital is not going to start this year. But I would like to know where that $680,000 is going to go, and I would like to know where the $66,000 went last year. 7221

May 10, 1976 Tape 2573 PK - 3 MR.

CANNING: There is no hospital up there. $66,000 spent last year to take off turf, a contract, I do not imagine there were tenders called for it, because I noticed that when the election was on that people who had the contract were out going around with Tory placards and making phone calls, and they were asking the people were they going to vote for this great lawyer, the man with all those degrees he had, or were they just going to vote for Pat Canning, that ordinary fellow from Merasheen who only got through teacher's training at the University, three years, got his Grade XI out on the Island of Merasheen.

Anyway, Mr. Chairman, they voted for Pet Canning - }IR. DOODY: That was the best part of your education. MR. CANNING: That I got out there. }fR. ROBERTS: Sure. MR. CANNING: You are telling me. AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh! }fR. CANNING : Anyway, Mr. Chairman, like I say, I will repeat again and I know that it is just hopeless for me to say that the minister will get up and tell us if he is going to start that this year' because he is not. Rut I would like to ask him how many planners and analysts,and what else? what is the other one? AN HON. MEMBER: Consultants. IIR. CANNING: Consultants. ------ /IN HON.

MEMBER: Architects. ~'R • CANNING : Architects. I 'mnder how much of that $680,000 is goin~ to go to those here in St. John's? AN HON. MEMBER: All of it. -------- MR . CANNING: All of it. I would not doubt it. I would not ------ douht it, Mr. Chai~an, and I on another day will have something to say ahout the contractors, and about consultants, analysts and all the rest of them. But I would like for the Minister of Health now to just explain to me exactly where this $680,000 is going, who is going to 7222

May 10, 1976 Tape Z573 PK- 4 ~~-_!:ann iE.B..:_ ret it or are there going to be any tenders, how many plans are going to be dra:wn, hm1 many consultants are going to be paid, are there any lawyers p.oing to be paid, are there any instruments or anything to he brought down on Water Street? Where is it going to go? Because it is not going to the Burin Peninsula. }IR. _L_~OWE : Preliminary plans. HR • CANN..!_NG : Well, yes, preliminary plans. Look,I have looked throufh the wages, the salaries I mean, and the budget, looked through them very thorougly since they came out, and Mr.

Chairman, the number of civil servants and the headings, the assistants, the Premier's private assistants an~ other assistants and other advisers and assistants to the assistants and the analysts, and I do not know whatnot, and the number who are there. !:f!..~-R~7E: But he neP.rlR th~m, you know. I am wondering if we need them. I wonder can we pay off a lot of them and build a hospital. Because when I was defeated, and I was defeated by that little margin they got me out on, J do not th:l.nk I was defeated anyway. I do not think that the people ever voted against me. I do not think they did.

But when I was defeated, what was it, five years ago? I did not know what the population of Newfoundland was, but I can assure you this, it has not ~rown :In comparison to the growth in the civil service. We had most of the civil servants in this building, a few outside, not too many, three or four perhaps boards, all the departments were here, and now, Mr. Chairman, the Confederation Building is filled up, every Crosbie Building in St. John's is filled up, and dozens of other buildinr,s.

There is something like sixteen, eighteen, or twenty, I do not know but more, I do not know yet, I cannot find them myself, I do not knoiJ what my constituents do when they come in how they find the departments. They find the Department of Fisheries in the Viking Building, and ., 7223

May 10, 1976, Tape 2574, Page 1 -- apb MR. CANNING! Then we find Motor Registration in another Crosbie building. The town is full of civil servants. Here I am standing up today after twelve years begging, having committees formed, delegations come in to two governments and about five or six ministers, from one part of this Island that is paying for itself,I can assure you of that, it is the part that is producing. The people in here are pretty fortunate, the people who are not producing. But St. John's has all the medical services.

Do you know that we have people up on the Burin Peninsula waiting for over a year to get into a hospital? If anyone wants to call me a liar they can. I will prove that I am not. But they are not allowed to call me a liar, Mr. Chairman. I have seen patients down in the General and over at St. Clare's and over at the Grace getting corns off their feet. I have seen people sick down on the Burin Peninsula, dying with cancer, too far away from a doctor to get a daily needle and they could not get in. I have seen that, and it is still going on.

I had a call about a month after I was elected from a man thirty miles from, thirty or more, thirty-four miles - one thing I can tell you is all the miles on the Peninsula if anybody wants to know about it - thirty-four miles from the hospital,who was dying with cancer, in the very last throes of it, the last stages of it, suffering. They were poor, they could not afford to get him up to the Burin Hospital and he asked me ~f there was anything that could he done to get somebody to give him a needle, in his sick bed, at home. Mr.

Chairman, I could go on for my forty-five minutes telling of the sufferings, the hardships of the people out there because they are not near St. Clare's, the Grace or the General. I could talk of people who have crippled limbs, apart from those who have died, people who have been ill from their twenties on or their thirties on, because they had to go to a hospital where we did not have the facilities. We have good doctors, we have good nurses,as far as that is concerned, but we just do not have the facilities.

May 10, 1976, Tape 2574, Page 2 -- apb 'ffi. CANNING: So, Hr. Chairman, I would ask the minister, hPcause I am just going to try to find out ~mere this $681) ,000 is going to go, I ~rould ask him where the $66,000 went last year, where the $680,000 is going to go this year, and I can assure him of one thing, if I do not do anything else this year I am_ going to be pretty busy trying to find out where that is being spent. Thank you. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Minist'er of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Chairman, if I may have a few brief words on this particular Heading.

I do not particularly like finding myself in disagreement with the bon. gentleman from Burin­ Placentia West (Mr. Canning), but I am compelled to take issue with his statement that people are dying on the Burin Peninsula because of lack of medical facilities. All RON. MEMBER: Who are you balming for it? MR. HICKMAN: I said I have to take issue with it, Mr. Chairman. On the Burin Peninsula we have three Cottage Hospitals, Grand Bank, St. Lawrence and Burin. All the hospitals at this time are staffed with highly competent doctors. I do not know how many are in Burin now, but I suspect four.

There are fouf in Grand Bank and three in St. Lawrence and there are at least two private practitioners in Marystown. There may be one in Bay L'Argent, I am not certain, but there used to be. The health facilities on the Burin Peninsula are in need of improvement,of that there is no doubt, and the Regional Hospital, when it is built at Salt Pond, will undoubtedly replace the hospital in Burin. It is within the same municipality - ~R. NEARY: Is that the right site, by the way? Because Dr. Paul said it was not the right one. ?{R. HICKMAN: There is no question in my mind, Mr.

Chairman, that Salt Pond is the desirable site for that hospital. The Salt Pond area has been accepted by the Burin Peninsula as the site for the major institutions for the Peninsula. MR. CANNING: The way they were building a stadium down there! . . 7225

May 10, 1976, Tape 2574, Page 3 -- apb "'R. HICKMAN: The hon. gentleman from Burin-Placentia West (Mr. Canning), has some views on the stadium in Maryst~cn that I would not find it appropriate to comment on. But I believe that institutions that require the support of several municipalities on the East side .. of the Burin Peninsula should be more properly, and certainly can be more effectively and efficiently established at Sal.t Pond.

There is not much point in going over all the water that has gone under the bridge, why there has been so many delays in building the hospital in Salt Pond- I am sure the hon. gentleman opposite is as aware of it as I am. I can recall when the hon. Doctor McGrath, the late Doctor McGrath,was Minister of Health I went to him and I asked what the possibilities were to build a hospital on the Burin Peninsula, a Regional Hospital.

He was inclined toward it and said, "If they could only make up their minds where they wanted it built." I said, "Well, we will resolve that for you." Many months later when I found myself up in the same Portfolio, we sent a team 4own and they finally located a spot not too far from where the present site has been chosen, Salt Pond, but a few miles further out in Burin Bay Arm because at that time the prospects of water and sewerage for the Burin Bay Arm area was not that good and they were very concerned about the water supply. So the site was tentatively chosen then.

Then there were some studies done and in 1969 or 1970 at a meeting in Marystown there was an indication given, as the hon. gentleman will recall, that the Regional Hospital in Clarenville would serve the Bonavista and Burin Peninsulas. That was an announcement that was not met with overwhelming enthusiasm from the people on the Burin Peninsula. And the thinking then continued that way until Doctor Rowe became Minsiter of Health, and he did not subscribe to that view of centralization in the large, large hospitals.

He commissioned a further study to be done and the study showed very clearly that both Clarenville and the Burin Peninsula could sustain a bed capacity of about 138. . ' 7226

May 10, 1976, Tape 2574, Page 4 -- apb "'R. RICKMAN: Then last there was this - it is there, it ~Jas not created by govermnent, but the same sort of controversy arose again as to where the hospital is going to be. There was a committee, a Hospital Committee formed. ~IR. CANNING: You are ahead of your story now. You are saying that the people on the Burin Peninsula were somewhat inclined to agree. MR. HI CKMAN : No, no: I said they were not inclined to. They showed something less than enthusiasm. Then there was a Hospital Committee formed.

I thought it had died and it suddenly came to life again last year, and they came in and they were advocating Marystown as the site for the hospital. Then there was another study done - this is where I suspect the $60,000 went -by a group of engineers. I thought it was resolved. It looked to me very clear that Salt Pond was the place, but no sirl this Committee wanted more than one site.

And this time last year the bon. the Premier was down and he was not in a position to indicate where the si~e was going to be because they had three, one near Wiscombe's Garage, another out somewhere where the stadium is, and the third one in Salt Pond. All the technical advice indicated very clearly, in my opinion, that Salt Pond was the site. And there was no doubt in my mind that the place for the hospital, if you wanted to get the support of