ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Leglslatlve Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 31-32 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable D. Jame• Via/ding Speaker VOL. XXXI No. 16A - 2:00 p.m., TUESDAY, 1 MARCH, 1983. Printed by Ille Offlce of Ille O-s Printer. Pr� of MllnltotM

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EY LER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon. Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J.

Frank KOST YRA,Hon. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECU YER, Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCH ARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vic SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompson La Verend rye Minn edosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ellice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Vi rden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Cha rleswood St. Ja mes St. Johns Morris Roblin- Russell St. Norbert Assi niboia Glads tone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Bu rrows Ross mere lnkster Fort Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flon Interlake Lac du Bonnet St.

Vi tal Party ND P NDP NDP PC PC PC ND P IND NDP ND P NDP NDP NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP ND P PC NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP PC PC NDP PC NDP PC ND P NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP NDP ND P NDP NDP PC NDP NDP NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP NDP NDP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 1 March, 1983. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenti ng Petitio ns . . . Readi ng and Recei ving Petitions . . . Presenti ng Reports by Standing and Specia l Commi ttees . MINISTERIAL STATEM ENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACK LING: Mr. Speaker , I wish to table a Report of the Department of Natural Resources for the peri od 1981 -82, and a report of the Conser vati on Distric ts of Manitoba Annual Report for the year 1981.

I wish to indic ate to the House that we haven't got all copies back from the prin ter, but I wanted to table these with the House at this time. NON-POLITICAL STATEMENT MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Servic es. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Speak er, I would like to make a very bri ef, non-politi cal announ cement, by lea ve, if I might. MR. SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Minister have leave? (Agreed) The Honourable Minister of Communit y Servic es. HON. L. EVANS: Thank you. Today is March 1st, St. David 's Day, St.

David bein g the Patron Sain t of Wales and, as one who comes from Welsh background, both my mother and father havi ng come to this great country of ours before the First World War from the great coun try of Wales, both havi ng spoken Welsh, would be very pl eased to kn ow tha t the mem bers of this Legislature, as I'm sure they wilb join with me in wishing the very best wishes to all of Welsh descent who live in the great Provin ce of Manitoba on the occasio n of St. Da vid' s Day. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motio n . . . Intro ductio n of Bi lls ... INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR.

SPEAKER: Before we reach Or al Questions, may I direct the attenti on of honourable members to the gallery where we ha ve 30 students of Grade 11 stan ding from the Ar borg School. The students are under the direction of Mr. Sterutynsky and the school is in the consti tuency of the Honourable Mi nister of Agr ic ultu re. There are also 48 students of Grades 3 to 6 stan ding of the Ag assi z Drive School under the direction of Mr s. 405 Pu scas and Mr s. John son. The school is in the constituency of the Honourab le Member for St. Norb ert. On behalf of all the members, we welcome you here this afternoon.

ORAL QUESTIONS Picket lines - ambulance drivers MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, yesterday I was asked a question of the Member for Fort Garry and I replied that if he could give me the detail s, I would in vestigate it. I am still wai ting for the detai ls but I did start the in vestigati on. The department have been in touch with the Health Scie nces Centre, the ambulanc e group, and I might say that they both refute quite categ oric ally the allegat io ns that were made. There is no picketing in that ar ea at all.

There ha s been no ambulance prevented from brin ging in patients at all. There has been a letter als o, whic h I recei ved a copy of, to the Member for Fort Garr y, from the Internat io nal Associa tion of Machinists who certai nly are not in accord with the statement that was made, or rejected quite strongly . I am assured that at no time will there be anybody that is sent to the hospital or the emerge ncy, that there will not be any picketing at all or any stopping of the ambu lances.

There is a possi bi lity that I mentio ned yesterday , that the situati on might be that this is not really related to the stri ke. It was an ambula nce driv er who felt that maybe there wasn't as much danger as there seemed to be. Nevertheles s, I thin k the im port ant thi ng is the in surance and I've used that question to assur e myself and the people of Manitoba that the strik ers will not prevent the am bula nces from deliveri ng patients. Winkler and Morden hospitals - reduction of nurses HON. L.

DESJARDINS: There is a an other questio n, Sir, that wa s put in the House an d then the Member for Pembina chose to ma ke a false statement to the radio. I am ta lki ng ab out the Winkler an d Morden hospita ls where there has been a re duction of nurs es. I might say that the ap pr oved ba se at Winkler is 59 .7 percent of either nurses, or the equivalent of full-time nursin g staff, that they are below that; that the in spector of the commis sion, quite the cont rary , has gone there and suggested that it was a dangerous situati on and that they should try to beef up their employment.

In Morden, it is somewhat different. They are now one over the base. This is somethi ng that has been done consta ntly. There is a ba se and the Budget is app rove d for that ba se an d if an y hospita ls or an y in stitutions decide that they should ha ve more, then they ha ve the responsi bility. That was done under the former government and is done -(In terj ection)- I beg your pardon?

Tuesday, 1 March, 1983 MR. D. ORCHARD: What were the numbers two years ago? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Two years ago? I'm glad you as ked that. It was 58.8 in Winkler and the ba se is 59.7, as I mentioned, and now they have 57.8. Apparently they have had trouble in -(I nterjec tion)- Well, my honourable friend - I'll repeat for them - they are understaffed, not because of any direction, because the y can 't find the st aff. The Ins pector of the Commi ss ion brought thi s to their attention and su ggested that they sh ould get their full complement, so it is not any action of this inhum ane government.

As far as the lunc hes, I might say that for the staff at Winkler, but that was another thing. It was noted by the Standards officer that they had access to the kitchen on an honour system. That wasn 't sati sfactory; they stopped it, the hospital it self. As far as the patients, they have had a choice of san dwiches at the evening meal, that was su pposed to be discontinued. They've had a choice of sand wiches, juice, coffee, cake and cookies. The only thing that was done, the lunch is st ill there; they have the same choice except sa ndwiches.

One of the reas ons is that many of the hosp itals feel that there sh ould not be a heavy meal for patients before going to bed. If there is any need at all all the doctor has to do is presc ribe it and they will have it, but they still have their choice of coffee, tea, juices, cake and cookies. A MEMBER: Let's all go. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Fort Garr y. MR. L. SHERM AN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker , I want to thank the Mi nister for his response to my question having to do with ambula nce se rvi ces relative to the Health Sciences Centre and the current strike situation.

Cert ainly his reass ur anc e is welcome and much appreciated, and I thank him for looking into the si tuation and providing the information that he did. I, too, have explored the si tuation further si nce as king the question yester day, and as I assu red the Minister I will make him aware of the detail s of the si tuation that prompted my question .- (Interjec tion)- I wonder if the Acting House Leader for the government has something on his mind or if he could permit me to finish my res ponse to the Minister. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order plea se .

The Honourable Minister of Natural Resour ces on a point of order. HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, Mr . Speaker , on a point of order. We are in the question period and the Honourable Minister rose to answer questions the other day. He ha s ans wered those que st ions. Tha t was not a ministerial statement. The Honourable Member for Fort Gar ry, if he has a question, can put a question. This is not a ministerial statem!ffit. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain to the same point of order. MR. A.

RANSOM: On the sa me point of order, the Mi nister of Health took a full five minutes to respond 406 to questions that were as ked and to some extent answered yesterday - a full five minutes. The Acting Government House Leader was n't on his feet once, not once, to indicate that the Minister was abusi ng the Rules of this House. When my colleague stand s here to as k a question and to preface that question in response to information provided by the Minister of Health, he has every right to do so and I trust this House will not operate according to a double standard. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health.

HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I don't want to comment on the point of order raised by our House Leader, but I re sent the accus ation or the statement that I abused the question period. I think I tried to answer the question that was as ked. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry to the same point. MR. L. SHER MAN: Yes, Mr. Spea ker, I don't believe that the Minister of Health abused the question period, and I don't believe that I'm abu sin g the question period.

I'm thanking the Mini st er for his information and proceeding to as k him a further question, and I think we could get on with it if we didn't have the intrus ions by the Acting Government House Leader. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honour able Minister of Natural Resources to the same point. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker , if the Honour able Member for Fort Garry is indeed going to be si ncere with this House, he will confirm that other members on that si de of the House had the same impression he did, that we were not in question period and he proceeded to make a statement in reply, yet there was no question being formula ted by the member. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry to the sa me point. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker , on a point of privi lege or a point of order, and I'd as k you to make the differentia tion , Sir, what does the Mi nister of Na tural Resources mean by whether the Member for Fort Garry is sin cere with this House? I made no reference to whether we were in question period or not - none. I was re sponding with appreciation to what the Minister sa id and then was going to as k him a question. MR. J. JOHNSTON: He's cra zy. No, he's just crazy. MR. L. SHER MAN: Mr. Speaker, I don't particularly want to belabour that point. MR. SPEAKER: Does anyone else wish to advise to the same point of order?

The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. A. RANSOM: The Acting Government House Leader has questioned the si ncerity of my colleague

Tuesday, 1 March, 1983 for Fort Garry and I ask that the Government Hous e Leader withdraw that innuendo. MR. SPEAKER: I will take the matter un der advisement and review what Hansard has to say on the matter. Perhaps we can proceed with the oral question period. The Honour able Member for Fort Garr y. MR. A. RANSOM: Risk making a ru ling. Picket lines - ambulance drivers MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I appreciate the information given to the House by the Min ister of Health but I wish to ask him a further question on the subject predicated on the fact, notwithstanding the references to ru mours and other imputations and allegations that have come across the floor. I wish to preface my question on the fact that my intervention yesterday was made sincerely in the interests of, and on behalf of a family in this province who suffered gr eat distress a few ev enings ago because of the refu sal of an ambulance dispatcher and/or driver to transport an ill member of the family to the Health Sciences Centre.

That happens to be a fact; it happened to take pla ce. I want now to ask the Mini ster of Health whether he can advise the House when a policy went into effect that said dispatchers or drivers could make these arbitrary decisions regardle ss of consul tation with the pr ofess ionals - with doctors who are ser ving as professionals on the case - as to whether a seriously ill patient or person was seriously ill enoug h to be transported to the Health Sciences Centre, when asked to be taken there by the family on the un derstan ding that the patient's doctor would be there.

Now, if that policy has been changed, then Manitobans should be advised that they cannot necessarily get into the Health Sciences Centre. The family certainly was un der the impression that it was as a resu lt of the strike. It may not have been but I would like to ask the Mini ster to clarify that policy. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker , to the member, there certainly hasn't been any change in the policy. There are certain actions that are taken by certain people. At the time it doesn't mean that it is always an order or a policy.

I think the important situat ion is that because of the strike - that's the way I took the question yesterday - we want to make sure that the strikers and the picketers would not prevent any patient from reac hing destination. I can assu re the members of this House and the people of Manitoba, after checking with everyone, that this is the situa tion. It might be that in certain situations if the hospitals or the amb ul anc es - and here I'm not su re; I'm suspecting that this might be the case - that the amb ula nce atte ndants should certainly have some training.

I'm not commenting if they're right or if they're wrong, but that because of the situation, that they would accept emergency patients, and might have taken upon himself to judge that it wasn't an emergency case and then suggest that there was not a dan ger. My information is - and I don't want to prolong this - I don't think there is any point in mentioning the 407 person. I think I know who it is and from what I hear, the person certainly wasn't in dang er.

That person decided that he did not like the idea of going to the hospital and the family drove him to the Health Sciences Centre where that person is resting comfortably I un ders tand. As Min ister of Healt h, I have certain resp onsibil ities but I haven't got the responsibility for everything that everybody does. I have the responsibility of the policy to make sure that this is done. Now, the situation in this case, and it seems quite right ly, that person was not endang ered at all.

The important thing - and I think that's what the member really wants to know - there is no policy directing the ambulance drivers or there is no picketers or anybody tha t will block the entrance of an ambulance bringing in an emergen cy, or when a doctor is sending a patient to a certain hospital. Educat ion funding - student aid MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Turtle Moun tain. MR. A. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker , my question is to the Min ister of Finance.

It's evident from a response given by the Minister of Education a few days ago, in response to a question asked by my colleague, the Member for Tuxedo, that the Mi nis ter of Edu cation has unde restimated the amou nt of money which she antici pates being expended in the area of student aid.

In view of the fact that the Estima tes of Expenditure are supposed to reflect the best knowledge concerning the amou nt of money which it is anticipa ted will be expended during the year covered in the Estima tes, my question to the Mini ster of Finance is, will the Min ister of Finance assu re this Hous e that to the best of his knowledge there are no other areas of spending within the Estima tes where the amoun t of spending has been knowingly un derestima ted? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Speaker , I would like to addr ess myself to that question becau se the member opposite is interpreting the remarks that I made in the Hous e yesterday as an indication by me that we had un derestimated the amou nt that would be requ ired to cover the Student Aid Program and that is not so, Mr. Speak er. There is additional significant amoun t of Information that will come out in Estima tes but I'd like to give a

summary of what the situation is now prior to going into the Estima tes discussion. There are a number of factors that we have to look at when we are making decisions about the level of student aid funding. -(Int erjection)- I am explaining that we have not un derestimated the student aid requ irements. I'd like to continue with my explanation, Mr. Speak er. There are a number of reasons why we have not un derestimated; there are factors that the members opposite do not know, are not aware of. The first factor is that we are expecting an incr ease in the federal level of contribution for Student Aid this year.

The province has been more than maintaining its level of funding. The Federal Government has slipped

Tuesday, 1 II/larch, 1983 badly; we are expecting them to improve their level of funding this year, Mr . Speak er. That is going to have a significant effect on the amount of money that is available. The other fa ctor that they would be unaware of is that in terms of the applications, we have an increasingly large number in the loan category.

Last year, far more of the applications were in the loan category which is funded by the Federal Government than are in the bursary category which are funded by the Provincial Government, which means there is a shift in the requir ements and the province is handling well its requir ements to meet the bursary categories. The gover nment sh owed la st year that we will maintain the program -(I nterje ction)- MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I wonder if it wouldn't be better for the Mini ster to provide that information, by the way, by way of a written document, since the ans wer does tend to be somewhat long.

The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. A. RANSOM: Yes, Mr .

Speaker , in view of the fa ct that the Mini ster of Education has under Student Aid an amount only slightly larger than budgeted last year, and in view of the fa ct that it was necessary for them to pass a Special Warrant in excess of $1 million to cover Student Aid, and in view of the fact that the Min ister expects more applications under Student Aid, and in view of the fa ct that revenues as well as expen ditur es must show up in the Estima tes, my question to the Mini ster of Finance is, are there any areas in the spending Estima tes before us, to the best of the Minister's knowledge, where the Estimates of Expenditur e have been knowingly underestimated?

I want that assurance from the Mini ster of Finance. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker, I just want to make it clear that the area of Student Ai d was not knowingly underestimated for the coming year. To put that in some kind of context, let's remember that in the last year, in the year when that Member for Turtle Mountain was the Minister of Finance, we needed a Special Warrant for over $100 million as compared to $44 million for last year. I don't know of any areas where we have knowingly un derestimated expenditures for the coming year. Loan Guarantee Program MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur . MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker , in view of the fa ct - this is to the Acting Minis ter of Agriculture - or the importance of it, I think it could be the First Mini ster that answers it or whoever may be capable if he isn't - that the agricultural community is going through probably one of the worst times since the Depression in the 1930s, and that they have recently in their Budget put forward $100 million Loan Guarantee Program which I would predict there would be very few, if any , present far mers would be eligible for that prog ram; in view of the fa ct, as recent as yesterday, I had a 408 constitutent who, I think, with not a bad record of repayment to a banking institute where they had paid somewhere in the neighbourhood of almost $100,000 in capital last year, as well as $66,000 in interest payments, own approxima tely 40 percent of their assets are now being put into receiver ship, will the $100 million program, Mr.

Speaker, to the First Minister, be available to individuals like him or same kind of fa rm fa milies who are finding themselves being pressured by the banking community at this time? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Min ister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speak er, the program will be available, of course, on the basis of those that apply; criteria will be established pertaining to that program. The Mini ster of Agriculture, of course, will be in much better position to give much greater detail in regard to that.

To ask me whether or not a particular loan would be made avai labl e in a partic u lar case, as the Honourable Member for Arthur is doing, it's unfair , because I have no knowledge as to the particular case, the circu mstances, and the reasons for the financial defa ult. I wouldn't attempt to specula te based upon facts that I do not have available to me. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, I would ask the First Minis ter, in view of the fact that in the press release that was issued today by the Mini ster of Agriculture and for a bit of background so he can answer this question - he's indicating that he's not aware that there are details or that there are guidelines provided for the program - that guarantees will be strictly limited to operating credit and will not be used to cover existing loans and arrears, how many fa rmers who are presently fa rming in Manitoba don't have arrears or current financial difficulties? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speak er, all that I can say to the Honourable Member for Arthur , we have been receiving positive response pertai ning to the initia tives by the Mini ster of Agriculture from both the fa rm community and also from the banking community in the Province of Manitoba recog nizing that there are certainly positive features. In saying that, Mr. Speaker , no one ought to pretend that they can deal with all the financial woes of the agricultural community today in Canada, no less than in Manitoba.

There's problems pertaining to costs;· problems pertaining to the change re the transportation costs, i.e., the Crow; changes pertai ning to the prices that fa rmers receive. But at least, Mr. Speaker , what we are att empting to do in sofar as the program annou nced by the Honour able Min ister of Agriculture is to provide some degree of assistance to assist to some extent fa rmers in the Province of Manitoba. We'll deal with every possible case, every kind of circumstance. Of course, the answer is no, Mr. Speaker. MR. J. DOWNEY: Well, Mr.

Speaker , will the First Mi nister instruct his Mi nister of Agricultur e to change the criteria, so that the Bank Guaranteed Program can be put in place to over those people who have existing debt or arrears, because those are the people who are

Tuesday, 1 March, 1983 in difficulty today, not the ones trying to get into farming? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker , we'll be prepared to examine any criteria , any program at any time. Mr . Speak er, to the Honourable Member for Arthur , there is a limit to which any governm ent, at any time, can financially proceed to do in a re sponsibl e man ner. It is somewhat interest ing to hear the requests and the calls , indeed, for fur ther financial input in view of the debate that has been taking place, and comments have been taking pla ce across the way over the last two or thr ee days. MGEA Agreement MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the First Minis ter concerning this heavily criticized agreement, signed by the government and the MGE A over 30 months, and a figure of 27 percent. Can the First Mini ster con firm tha t the Con servative administration signed a contract with the MGEA for some 23.5 percent over 24 months, which extrapolated over a 30-month period is equivalent is 29.5 percent? Can he also confirm that an agreement was signed with the employees of St.

Boni face Hospital for 30 percent, plus a COL A clause over 24 months, which is equivalent to 37 .5 percent over 30 months, Mr . Speaker; and that they also signed an agreement with the operating engine ers, the IU OE operating engi neers at the Health Sciences Centre for 31.5 percent over 24 months? Can the Minis ter confirm those figures? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able First Minis ter. HON. H. PAWLEY : Mr .

Speak er, I appreciate the question because it does focus some attention on some of the duplicity that has taken place on the part of honour able memb ers la tely in regard to certain allegations that have been made. I cannot confirm the first few figures that the honourable member has mentioned but, Mr. Speaker , what I can indeed confirm is that in 1981 major settlements were entered into during the time of the former Min ister of Health , the Member for Fort Ga rry. During the time of the former Minis ter of Finance, the Member for Turtle Mountain , Mr.

Speak er, settlements that were the highe st, highest settlements in the election year 1981 that were ever entered into by any government in the Province of Manitoba with employees in the history of the Province of Manitoba. I would like to also fur ther inquir e, so I can confirm the information provided to me by the Member for Elmwood. MONA Agreement MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker , can the First Minis ter also confirm that the nu rses' union, MONA , was given a 38-percent settlement over 24 months or 42 percent over 24 months?

I wonder whether the First Mini ster would ch aracterize the members opposite in view of these generous settlements given to a whole series of 409 unio ns, either by thems elves directly or by their representati ves, rather than characterizing them as a pride of lions, they could better be described as simply a bunch of pussycats. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speak er, the answer to the first part of the question is, yes, and possibly a little bit more than the 38 percent re the MONA. (

b) In pertaining to the description of the honourable members across the way, I wouldn't try to describe them either by the terminology suggested by the Honourable Member for Elmwood or other members in this House. I think Mani tobans thems elves will prop erly ch aracterize honour able mem bers across the way and their opposition. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speak er, just a straightforward question to the First Minis ter. Would he undertake to provide this House with an Order for Return confirming these figures, Mr .

Speaker , so that it can finally come out that the responsibility of the previous administration was not as advert ised by honourable members opposite prior to the last election, that essential servi ces, health , particularly and otherwise, were being looked after? What was all that stuff that I was hearing about and that the media was printing about my tight-f isted leader, the Lyon Government , the cutbacks , the dirty sheets in the hospitals , and all the other nonsense? Now, we hear the whole truth to the story.

I would like an Order for Return confirming all those figures about that tight­ fisted government that I was a part of. MR. SPEAKER: I am not sure whether that was a question, perhaps the Honourable First Min ister wishes to reply. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr . Speaker , the Honour abl e Member for Lakeside, I would be delighted to deal with an Order for Return because of what the Order for Return will show, if you should table an Order for Return, is that 1978 , 1979 , 1980, we had acute protra cted restraint government, extremely stingy insofar as health care workers and others in the Province of Manitoba.

In 1981, the year of the election, these fellows who were the scrooges in Manitoba became the Santa Clauses in the Province of Manitoba. Money grew on trees in 1981 and the honourable members across the way, including the Member for Turtle Mountain, the Member for Fort Garr y, while they were Finance and Health respectively, entered into, as I mentioned earlier, the largest settlements after thr ee years of so-called restraint , the largest settlements in the history of the Province of Manitoba - the year of the election. MGEA Agreement MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Leader of the Opposition. HON. S. LYON: Mr .

Speaker, I would like to get the debate back to today and I would like to get us back to the agreement. I would like to get it back to the agreement, Mr. Speak er, that the First Mini ster and his

Tuesday, 1 March, 1983 �������������---��� -- government just signed with the Manitoba Government Employees Associ ation. Ca n the Firs t Mi nister confirm what I asked hi m the other day that the agreement that he and his government signed, a matter of a week or two ago, with the Manitoba Government Employees Associ ation was for a 30-month contract in total for 27.5 percent compounded with no layoff and no wage control? Mr.

Speaker , in order to help my honourable friend answer that very simple question, I'll file with the House, the Man it oba Gover nment Employees Associ ati on News Release dated February 15, 1983, where in the Ma ni toba Go ver nment Emp loyees Associ ati on says that's the agreement that they signed. Will the First Mi nister confir m that's the agreement that he signed because one party seems to know what they signed in any event? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Leader of the Opposition ought to have no problem in doin g some calculat ions.

The reopeni ng of the agreement perta in in g to the Manitoba Government Employees Associ ati on dealt with a settlement over an 18-month period. Mr. Doer, himself, has very clearly demonstrated what in deed that cost each governm ent employee in the Pr ovince of Manitoba . Mr. Doer's statement was to the effect that the cost was some $600 average per employee in the Provi nce of Manitoba in the public servi ce of the Provi nce of Manitoba. Mr . Speak er, I am not goin g to argue with that statement by the Presi dent of the Manitoba Government Emp loyees Assoc i ation because it is an accurate statement.

It is an accurate statement on the part of the President of the Manitoba Government Employees Associ ation, freei ng up some $10 to 11 million in sofar as a Pr ovince of Manitoba is concerned for the fiscal year '83-84, ins ofar as the fiscal year '84- 85, Mr. Speaker , we are looki ng at a 2.5 percent over a six­ month period. HON. S. LYON: Mr .

Speak er, well, then the question that the Honourable First Mi nister contin ues to evade, and I have la id the document on the table of the House, wherei n the Government Employees Associ ati on states that they have signed an agreement, the effect over 30 months of which is to give a 27.5 percent in crease to all of the provin cial ci vil servants in Manitoba, will the First Minister merely confirm that statement by the Man it oba Government Employees Associat ion, the same Mr. Doer, whom he quoted with approval just a few seconds ago, will he not confir m that Mr.

Doer was telli ng the truth when he made that statement to his membershi p and to the people ol Manitoba as well? HON. H. PAWLEY : Mr. Speaker , if the Leader of the Op position would just for a moment look at the settlement, he would note that it deals with the peri od Apr il 1, 1983, to September 30, 1984. It requires no geni us to do that.

Insofar as statements that have been issued by other parties in the Pr ovince of Manitoba, I am not about to become inv olved in a debate with the Leader of the Opposition as to whether certai n detai ls and other statements issued by others are in accord with our un derstandi ng of the agreement. 410 MR. SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Leader of the Oppositio n. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speak er, with the First Minister continuin g to evade the truth, is the First Minister saying to the House and to the people of Manitoba that he's prepared to accept the word of Mr.

Doer when he happens to agree with the in ter pretati on of that word, but he is not prepared to accept the word of Mr. Doer when Mr. Doer says equal ly, tellin g his members that the agreement that he signed with this government, which was obvious ly a doormat governme nt , the agreement that he signed with the government is over a 30-month perio d for 27 .5 percent; is he sayi ng Mr. Doer was lyin g about that? HON. H. PAWLEY: By what way I could be evadi ng the truth when I aga in have to repeat to you, Mr.

Speak er, and for honourable members of the Ch amber, that the agreement expires 18 months from Apr il 1, whic h is September 30th, aga in I repeat, September 30th, 1984, not September 30th, 1985. Now if I calcu late Apr il to September of 1984, my calculat ions tell me that comes to 18 months. Maybe the Leader of the Opposition would like those calculat ions to come to 30 months, as ind eed did the Member for Rhineland and the Member for Fort Garry calcu late those figur es on Public TV, but my calculat io ns tell me it's 18 months and not 30 months as alleged by some honourable members across the way. HON. S.

LYON: Mr . Speaker , the First Minister can put on this display, as I sai d earli er, of bad theatre, in front of the camera, I'm sure for the dismay of the people of Manitoba and he can argue about figures all he wishes. The figur es that I'm proposing to him are not my figures, Mr. Speaker , they're the figures of the other party to the agreement, the Manitoba Government Employees Associat ion. I suppose the questio n has to be, Mr.

Speaker , a double-barrelled questio n which I thi nk we deserve an answer to, is the First Minister saying that the effect of the agreement that he opened up and signed on behalf of the taxpayers of Manitoba a few days ago, is it not the effect of that agreement over a 30-month perio d, of the opened-up agreement, to give the civil servants of Manitoba a 27.5 percent compounded in crease at a time when most other employees in Manitoba are lucky to be getting zero, is that number one, is that not the case; and number two, does the First Minister not realize at this late date� that that is the agreement he signed?

HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker , all that I can say to the Leader of the Oppositi on is that we are deali ng with the next 18 months. We're not deali ng with the perio d Apr il 1, 1982 to Apr il 1, 1983; we're deali ng with the 18-month period, Apr il 1, 1983 to September 30, 1984.

You know the honourable members across the way find it very very difficult to accept that management and emp loyees unio n can sit down, and though agreement may be legal and quite bindin g in respect to both parties, that voluntar il y parties can re-open an agreement, and honourable members don't like the fact that through voluntary re-opening of the agreement ,

Tuesday, 1 March, 1983 through the kind of discussions that took pl ace, some $11 million was freed-up for the Government of the Prov in ce of Ma ni toba. Mr . Speaker , tha t is what honourable members across the way don't like. They don't like the fa ct that this agreement is been reflected upon well by both business and by labour circles in the Province of Manitoba as a model of the kind of negotiati ons that should be tak ing place during these difficult times.

Honourable members don't like the fa ct that this government is showing an altern ative, an alterna tive to their antiq uated approa ches across the way as well as unfortuna tely the lack of leader shi p that flows from Ottawa , Mr . Speaker. HON. S. LYON: Mr . Speaker , it becomes apparent I thi nk to any reasonable observer that the First Mi nister really doesn't know the ar ith metic of what he signed on behal f of the people of Manitoba. Now, Mr.

Speaker , as he contin ues this bad theatre and continues to pull figur es and statements out of the ai r, talk i ng about a savi ng of $10 million, would he not, as a lawyer, agree that the proper term for that $10 million item would be a deferral of payment, rather than a savi ng to the taxpayers of Manitoba; and that being the ca se, how do he and his beleaguered Mi nister of Finance justify the in clusion of the statement in the Estimates when they're re ferr in g to their il lusory $200 million Jo b Fund as contri butio n by MGEA?

How do they justify that as a contri butio n when it's merely a deferral of monies paid? HON. H. PAWLEY: The ans wer to the Leade r of the Opp osition's qu estion is no, no. The savi ng is a $10 million - in fact it could be closer to an $11 million settlement - in the fiscal year 198 3-84 and ins ofar as the Ju ne 23rd, 1984 which is thr ee months in to the fiscal year 1984-85 - I wonder if the Leader of the Oppositi on could listen to this because it might enlighten hi m just a little bit as to some of the fa cts before him. I know he sometimes ap preciate facts.

At Ju ne 23r d, 1984 a further average 1.5 percent in creas e, expressed as $370, is added. Note - and this is important , too, and I'd like to emphasize this becau se, though it doesn't

part ic ularly warm the hearts of members across the way, it is important to most Manitobans - the dollar in crease effectively gives lower pai d workers a relat ively greater in crease than those in higher brackets. Mr . Speak er, if the Leader of the Oppositio n would like to examine personally the agreement , we'll certa inl y make that ava il able to him at any time. I'm sure it's avai lab le, that we could make it ava il able to the Leader of the Opposition for his personal perusal at any time. HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Speak er, I think the qu estion needs to be put then, is the Manitoba Government Employees Associa tion and their president, who stated that the effect of the 30-month contract, the extended 24-month contract , the effect of it is to give 27 .5 percent to government employees at a time when steelworkers are tak i ng zero percent ; at a time when Schneider's are tak i ng 5 percent, or 6 percent, or whatever; at a time when people are being la id off in Manitoba with no in crease at all , is the First Mi nis ter trying to say that an agreement that he signed that gives 27 .5 percent to this special category of people, of civi l servants in 411 Manitoba , is he tryin g to say that is good business for Manito ba, and did he in fa ct sign the same agreement as the one that Mr.

Doer describes in the document that I've laid on the table of the House, or does he know? HON. H. PAWLEY : Mr . Speak er, what the Leader of the Opp osition doesn't like again, and I've tried to respond to. I believe this is about the 21st time, maybe the 22nd time that the Leader of the Opposition has posed, I think , pract ically the same questio n in this Chamber since the opening of this Legislature. Very very clear ly , Mr.

Speak er, aga in no matter what way you add up the calculat io ns, $10 million to $11 million saved, fiscal year 1983 to 1984, a 1.5 percent inc rease takes pla ce, not Apr il 1 of 1984 as would be the normal time for the terminat io n of the older agreement , but not until Ju ne 23, 1984, close to thr ee months after Apr il 1 of 1984, an in crease at that time of a modest 1.5 percent takes place ins ofar as the contract with the employees of the Manitoba Government. Mr.

Speaker, a fur ther 1 percent or a little less can be explained by the fa ct that on Apr il 1 of 1984 a disability program takes effect in the Provin ce of Manitoba , so that during that first six-month peri od in 1984 approx i mately 2.5 percent average is added to the contract over that six-month period of 1984. Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition need only do his own calculat ions and he'll arrive at the same conclusio ns. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The ti me for oral questions havi ng expired. The Honourable Member for Pembina rises on a point of order. HANSARD CORRECTIONS MR. D. ORCHARD: Yes, Mr .

Speaker, I would like to point out some corrections in Hansard of 2:00 p.m., Monday , 28th of Febru ary . On Page 368 the correct wording should be, "O nly the socia list hordes can get over the wall to get here", meani ng the Pr ovince of Manitoba , Mr. Speaker, and not "her". Furthermore , on Page 37 1, Mr. Speaker, of the same Hansa rd, once aga in Mr. Ur uski is an swering a question and my directi on to hi m was, "Try the truth , Bi lly", not "Try the fr uit". A MEMBER: He may try both. MR. D. ORCHARD: I didn't think I had a "lithp". MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L.

DESJARDINS: Mr. Speak er, I wonder if the honourable member could avai l himself of the same opportunity to make the corr ection, the chan ge, of the misleading statement he made in the House, in a speech outsi de the House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie.

Tuesday, 1 March, 1983 MR. L. HYDE: Thank you, Mr . Speaker, I rise on a point of privi lege with regard to the paragraph on Page 399. The first paragraph reads: "The owner under our government was given the authority to build a new 15- bed personal care home". Mr . Speak er, I would like that correcti on to read, "50- bed personal care home". MR. SPEAKER: I thank the honourable member for his clar ifica tion. He did not have a point of privi lege. The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr.

Speaker, whi le we're up with confessio ns, on page 384 of yester day's Hansard, there is an indic ation that I had made a comment to the Member for Pembi na indica ting that possibly he was a liar. I would like to apologize for that. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I thank the Honourable Minister of Finance for his courtesy to the House. ORDERS OF THE DA Y BUDGET DEBATE MR.

SPEAKER : On the prop osed motion of the Honourable Minister of Finance, and an amendment propo sed to by the Ho nour able Leader of the Opp osition standi ng in the name of the Honourable Mem ber for Robl in -Rus sel l, who ha s 35 minu tes remaining. MR. J. McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . In my in troductory remarks I did congr at ulate our new Clerk. I wish him well and espouse that I am in complete support of the amendment as proposed by my leader to this horr ib le Budg et that the people of this provin ce are facin g, Mr.

Speaker , and maybe I should put it in to the record the reasons that I'm not supporting this Budget. First of all, the first reason is , because it's failed to portray accurately and clearly the financial affai rs of the prov in ce - and we saw all ki nds of evidence of that aga in here today - that the financial affai rs of this provin ce are not being portrayed in a fitting manner for the people to understa nd. The second reason that this government is followin g a course of fiscal mismanagement that has potenti ally rui ned us - and I will have several remarks to address to that in my speech, Mr. Speaker .

Thi rd ly, that the government has esta blis hed a ta xati on system and an in ve stment cli mate tha t discourages job creat ion, I'll be addressin g that, and it has im posed tax in creases upon the unemployment and the other low in come people to provide one of the la rgest pay in cr eases in Canada for prov in ci al government employees, which we just heard discussed back and forth, Mr. Speaker. The last poin t is, that this government and this Budget has seriously damaged the credibility and has thereby brought the democrati c process in to disrepute. Mr.

Speaker , the problems with this Budget started at the time of the last election and as I was poin ting out in my remarks last night, the people of the provin ce of course made the deci sion and elected this 412 government. But as I poin ted out so well last night, Mr.

Speaker , we the Conservative group in an election campa ign told the people of the provin ce what would be the result if they elected this government - and I'm readi ng from a press release of the Winnipeg Free Press, November 16, 1981 -where on our side we sai d to the people of the prov in ce, we prophesied that if they elected an NOP Government that they would scrap the mega projects. That's the first thing we predicted and that has turned out to be a fact, Mr. Speaker . The second thing we prophesied, Mr. Speaker , was, there would be no new jobs, that is true, Mr. Speaker , there'd be no new jobs.

We also said there'd be no new busi ness opportunities for the people of this provin ce, dead on. We also poin ted out to the people of this provin ce there'd be no gr owth in this provin ce, that is true, Mr. Speaker . We also prophesied, Mr . Speaker , that taxes would go up, ri ght on. We also predicted hydro rates would soar, Mr. Speaker, true. We also promised, Mr. Speak er, and told the people of this province that if they elected an NOP Government that the opportunity to build a decade of prosperity would be lost, ri ght on, Mr. Speaker . Mr.

Speaker , what happened and what are some of the promi ses that our honourable friends made from this clear choice for Manitobans. They're well-known; they've been espoused over and over aga in, "We can build a dynamic future in Manitoba". Is that true? It's false, they haven't proved it up to now; they've put the provin ce on the rocks. We can turn around the harsh economic circumstances of the past four years, that's what they said. That's not true, Mr. Speaker. We can tap our sources of energy wisely, true or false? Not true. We can improve the quality of life in small towns and rural communities. Mr.

Speaker , I will point out in my addr ess how you build a wall between Manitoba and Saska tchewan with these cra zy tax laws that we've got in this Budget. You mean to tell me that's building the feelings in this pr ovince? It's tear i ng the heart out of them, Mr. Speaker . It goes on, Mr . Speaker , and I'l l not espouse at any great lengths on this document, I may refer to it from time to time in my remarks. But, Mr. Speak er, let's look at the Brandon Sun, what they feel about the Budget that's before us, some of the remarks of the Brandon Sun.

Sp okesmen in rural - and I' ve asked the constituency that I represent, Mr. Speaker , western Manitoba - said that they will be hard-hit by this provincia l Budget. The Shoal Lake Mayor , Bi ll Lewycky says, "In western Manitoba unemployment is not a real major concern and the $200 million for job creat i on · won't benefit too much out here". Mcis aac from Russell, who has been espousin g back and forth with the Minister of Finance as they discussed the possibilities of this Budget and said, "We shouldn't be put at a disadvantage for the sake of ra ising money".

"We, the people that live in Russell, shouldn't be put at a disadvantage to the people that live across in Saskatchewan for the purp ose of raisi ng money". Mr. Mcisaac went on to say that, "O ur consumers are very much concerned with what's goin g on with th is government". It went on, Mr. Speaker, with the truckin g firms. A trucki ng firm from Bi rtle, and I wonder what my friend from Ste. Rose, what kind of message he'd be getting from his truckers now tha t their fuel is jacked up another

Tuesday, 1 March, 1983 6 cents a gallon. This trucker from Bi rtle says , Mr . Speaker , "The in creased cost of fu el wi ll mean Saskatchewan truckers will have a 15-cent per litre advantage over Manitoba truckers' '. Is that fair ? Is that the kind of a government that we want in this provi nce to give an unfair advantage to one pr ovince over another? Mr. Speaker , why does the government consistently compare us to Ontar io? We in western Manitoba have very little access to Ontar io.

We deal with Sask atchewan and Alb erta and I no tice fr om ti me to ti me the honourable members stand up and refer to, well we're comparing these tax measures to Ontar io, but not to Saskatchewan or Alber ta. That is not fair to the truckin g ind ustry in Birtle , nor is it fair to the truckin g in dustry in Roblin, or Russell, or Ste. Rose, that the truckers across the border have a 15-cent per litre advanta ge, that is not fair . The Minister knows it, the government knows it and the Minister of Municipal Affair s knows it. Mr . Speaker , it goes on and on this Budget.

It has taken in my opinion, but a very few short, maybe 15 months for this Premier, this Minister of Finance and this government to completely destroy the immediate futur e, the economic destiny and the goodwill that's taken hun dreds of years in this provin ce to build up. It's been destroyed in a matter of 15 months with these boys in office. Ima gine, Mr.

Speak er, the aspi rat io ns of any young man today, or any young woman, or any young busin essman who is looki ng for a place to hang his hat in this provin ce, walking in here and facin g the kind of tax laws and the type of government that we have in office, Mr. Spea ker. Mr .

Speak er, this 19 83-8 4 Bu dget is the most devastati ng Budget that this pr ovince has ever seen, at least since I've been in this Legislature - and I've checked back with as many as I possibly could through Hansard and the li brary - in my opinion it is the most devast ati ng Budg et tha t the Legi slature and th is provi nce has ever seen. I say, Mr. Speaker, it's shattered the dreams and the confidence of every ci tizen in western Manitoba for sure. I have never heard more derogatory comments than I have about this Budget. Mr.

Speaker , it's shattered the confidence levels of Manitoba ci tizens who want to put ri sk capital at work in our provin ce, monies to loan, people tha t have money to loan ; people that have money to inv est in our gr eat provin ce to the extent that the business community are aski ng one another today, who would be a fool enough to enter the busin ess community in Manitoba today with this government in office? With that ki nd of a Finance Mi nis ter sitting over there pecki ng away at their pockets and applying unfair tax measu res so that we can't do business in competition with the other pr ovinces, Mr.

Speaker . Mr. Speaker, I don't know. All kinds of Manitobans are weari ng these buttons today. Have you seen them around? Socia lism - how do you like it so fa r? I'v e even seen some of them with bumper st ick ers and you'll see more of them, Mr . Speaker , because people are already fed up and the morale of the prov in ce has hit a new low after this Budget was read in to the historical records of Manitoba. Mr. Speak er, what are some of the things that have descri bed this? What is some of the termi nology or the words that this Budget has descri bed?

I see it 413 described in one of the papers as a "cowardly Budget", by that well-known columnist Frances Russell, she called it a "cowardly Budget". It's been called a "bull- headed Budget", I saw that in one of the Winnipeg papers. It's been called a "r eprehens i ble Bu dget" by another Winnipeg editoria l. It's even been called "the worst Budge t since Man itoba became a prov i nce", Mr . Speaker, that was by another Winnipeg writer.

It has set a new record high for deficit financi ng in this provin ce with a projected deficit of what, some $579 million for the year 1983-84 and many experts in cluding my leader feel that it will escalate to well over $700 million, Mr. Speaker. It surp asses last year' s deficit whic h was a record by what, some $200 million or more and has inc reased the public debt owed by every man, woman and chi ld in this provin ce to the tune of $1,000 per person in a matter of 15 months, an in crease to the taxpayers of this pr ovince in a matter of 15 months.

It's ra ised the provin cial debt of this province to $5.3 billion and it's ri sing, that's all hap pened, Mr. Speaker, since these rascals took office. So today I dares ay , Mr. Speake r, 10 cents out of every dollar that's collected by this Finance Minister is earmarked for debt servicing. Mr. Speak er, new and unborn chi ldren in Manitoba for the first time in my life when they are brought onto this earth, have an IOU hanging around their necks today, that they owe this Finance Mi nister and this government $1 ,000.00. Mr .

Speaker , you weren' t brought in to the world under thos e economic circumstances and neither was I and that, of course, is part of the penalty that we must pay for soci alism, Mr . Speaker, I suppose. Of course, if tha t's the future of this old tomorr ow go vern ment, as somebody descri bed it, offers to the newborn and the unborn young people that are brought in to life as a result of this Budget. This Budget also, Mr.

Speak er, has built a trade war among the towns and villa ges along the Man itoba­ Saska tchewan border, where sales tax, gasoli ne taxes and motive fuel taxes are quite different from the one provi nce to the oth er. We see headli nes, Mr. Speaker, in the Russell Banner as an example that says, "NOP Government passes gasoli ne smuggling laws". Mr.

Speaker, for the first time in our lifetime in Russell and those in Roblin, those in Bi nscarth , those towns along the Manito ba-Saskatchewan border, we have a trade war goin g on where one provin ce is overtaxi ng the people and the other provin ce is taxi ng them fair ly. So you can buy goods and services in the one province considerably lower than the other. Of course, Mr.

Speaker, the border towns, these villag es, and ci tizens resi ding, I say now are treated as second-class ci tizens by this Budget and by this govern ment, whereby gasoli ne and motive fuel, you go across from Russell to Langenburg , it's 10 cents a gallon cheaper in Langenburg. You go over in Langenbur g, the sales tax is lower in Langenburg. The same thing west from Roblin, Mr. Speaker. Is that fair? Is that the kind of budgetary pra ctices that the people of this provin ce should enjoy, whereby one provin ce pays higher motive fuel taxes and gasoli ne taxes than the other?

Of course, the other problem with this Minister and this government is facing in the very near future is that the Provin ce of Saska tchewan has indic ated that they are goin g to lower the sales tax in Saskatchewan. That

Tuesday, 1 March, 1983 was one of their election promises and what kind of a trade war are we going to get on that one, Mr . Speaker? We're raising our sales tax in this provin ce; Saskatchewan is lowering it. They say that's fa ir. They say, Mr. Speak er, that they are treating the people of this province, especially western Manitoba, fa ir on matters such as this. Mr. Speaker, I don't think that's the way the people of this province nor the average man in the streets today want to see this Canada built and this Manitoba built under those kind of financial conditions.

I think every body should be treated equally as we possibly can and not have the glaring tax concessions granted to one province and not the other. I wonder, Mr. Spea ker, would you in your wisdom drive over to Saskatchewan and buy motive fuel or gasoline if you lived along the Mani t oba-Saskatchewan border. Would you go over into Saskatchewan and buy goods and service where the sales tax was lower there than it is in our province, Mr . Speaker? It's a strange thing, Mr. Speaker , that province used to have an NOP Government - Saskatchewan.

It's strange now that they're penalizing our people here that want to go over there, now that the government has changed. Mr. Speak er, maybe you wouldn't drive over into Saskatchewan for motive fuel or goods and services, but I'll bet you there are thousands and thousands of Manitobans that will drive across into Saskatchewan and take advantage of the cheaper prices that they're offering to their people in that provin ce. Mr. Speaker , so this Budget, beyond all shadow of a doubt, will certainly hurt the Manitoba business community by these policies. The controls, Mr. Speaker, are just amazing.

The penalties that they've brought in to try and control these Manitobans that live in these towns like Binscarth, Roblin, Swan River and Russell. Mr . Speaker, if they get caught going over there, if they get caught buying more than 40 gallons of gas in Saskatchewan, now they're going to be put in jail, it says here. It says, "Penalties on convictions for failing to report such importations range from fines of $250 to $1 ,500, or a jail term up to a year or both." That's the penalty that we, in this province, pay if we go over into Saskatchewan and buy more than 45 gallons of gas.

As well, he must pay double the original tax due. Now, Mr . Speaker , is that fa ir? Is that the way to build Canada? Is that the way to build this province? Is that the way to make this country united, with those kind of tax measures, Mr . Speaker? I doubt it very much, Mr. Speaker. Let's go through the problems that we've had with this comp etition gr ant assistance pol icies of this government whereby service stat ions that want to expand or sell more gasoline along the border, they want to expand their business, Mr. Speaker, they can't do it.

That Mini ster of Finance will not give them the quota of gasoline, so the y can 't expand th ose busine sses that are along the border of Manitoba and Sask atchewan. I had the case of one service station ran out gas, their quota ran out in September or Octo ber, tried to get an extra quota from the Finance Min ister. No, no dice. Of cours e, Socialism doesn't belie ve in the expansion of business. How can they, Mr.

Speaker , possibly say in this Budget that we're going to try and put people to work, that we're going to expand the 414 resources of this province, we're going to do all these things when we have those kind of things happening in the Department of Finance? People that want to expand their busine sses - who would want to come in and set up a new business, for example, in Roblin today, a gas station or a garage and try and deal with this Finance Minister? Mr. Speaker, it's impossible. I was also wondering, Mr.

Speaker, would you or any businessman or businesswoman move into western Manitoba today, move into Swan River or Flin Flon or Roblin or Russell or Bins carth or Melita, any of those border towns and open up a business and try and compete with our friends in Saska tchewan under these conditions. I doubt it very much, Mr. Speaker , I doubt it. I wouldn't. Maybe the born losers, Mr. Speaker, would accept such a challenge and fight the barriers and the walls that's been built between these two provinces, but I don't think you would, Mr. Speak er.

I'm sure I wouldn't walk in there and set up a new business today under the budgetary conditions and policies of this government. It just doesn't make sense. Mr . Speak er, the other point of the Budget and the spending Estimates that were tabled by the Finance Mi nis ter ind icated tha t this government will have incr eased government spending in the year 198 3-84 to the tune of $3.326 billion. You know, Mr. Speaker, when I came in this Legislature in 19 66 , the total expenditure of the Government of that Day was $301 million. In this short time, Mr.

Speaker , that I've been in this Legislature, government spending has escalated $3 billion. There was about a million people here in this province when I came here in '66 and it's about a million people today. Mr. Speaker, in '66-67 the spending Estima tes of the Government of that Day was $301 million. Today, $3 billion, Mr. Speaker . I suggest, Mr. Speaker , that something is wrong. I suspect that something is wrong, that people of this province cannot possibly afford those kinds of escalating government expenditur es in this province.

After all, are people getting any better educated today as a result of those expenditures of money, Mr. Speaker? I doubt it very much. There are a lot of students that are unemployed, Mr. Speaker. Our health delivery system, Mr. Speak er, has exceeded a billion dollars. Are there less people dying today because we're spending a billion dollars on health in this province, Mr. Speaker? I doubt it very much. There is time for us to sit back and review and discuss the possibilities of cutting back some of these enormous costs that the . taxpa yers of this province are asked to bear as a result of this Budget. Mr.

Speaker , I see the confidence of the people in this province, of well-known international firms around the world, who have always had the greatest trust in government and the people of this province. I see them backing away as a result of this Budget. I just asked the Mini ster of Finance, Mr. Speaker , do you think Alcan will ever come back to Manitoba under the budgetary conditions that we have in this Budget? Never, Mr. Speaker . They never will. Do you think the aerospace industry will ever come back to Manitoba and set up here under these budgetary conditions? Never, Mr . Speaker . They are not coming back.

Do you that CSP Foods, that new plant at Har rowby, now that have all these budgetary problems tha t this government

Tuesday, 1 March, 1983 has heaped on their shoulders, do you think they wish now they hadn't come into this province, they wish they wou ld ha ve ju st built across in Saskatchewan? Absol utely. What about the potash industry? Do you think the potash ind ustry who ha ve all kinds of potash in Saska tchewan will possibly come in and sink a shaft in this province under these budgetary conditions? Never. MR. H. ENNS: Never. MR. J. McKENZIE: They'll go across the border and sink it in Saskatchewan. They wouldn't go to McCau ley.

They'd be fools to go to McCauley and set a shaft today with a government like this in office in our province. Mr . Speak er, what about the high tech no logy industries that they talk about so much in this Budget? You show me one high technology industry that wants to compete in the world market today that would come into this province under these conditions. They will not come, Mr. Speaker. I see, Mr. Speaker, I see as a result of this Budget capital investment being scared away as a result of the budgetary practices of this fine Min ister.

I don't know what's wrong with this Cabinet, what' s wrong with this government that they don't understand that foreign capital has to be cultivated, it has to be encouraged, it has to be given concerns that you un derstand what their problems are, the same as ours. But, Mr. Speaker, I fa il to see any indication in this Budget, any way, shape or form that they are looking at the possibility of foreign capital coming into our province to help us get out of these difficult problems that we're fa cing this time. Mr .

Speaker , if foreign money is continually scared away and chased away year after year by the examples that we've witnessed in this Budget and, if we see it again in next year's Budget, I don't think those people will ever - maybe for decades - come back and take a look at the possibility of vesting capital in this province. This government of course well knows how to pull the rug out from foreign investors. That is well-known. The other thing, Mr . Speaker , I wonder about the government and its entry into the business community at this time, into the oil business and the insu rance business.

What a great time for a government, a government that's suppo sed to represent the people, to get into the oil industry today. When you listen to what's going on in the oil markets last night, the OPEC and the price war that's going on and these giants across the way, Mr. Speaker , this Minis ter of Energy is going to take $24 million or $40 million of the ha rd­ earned taxpayers' money of this province and he's going to wade into that field, in the oil field. A MEMBER: . .. he's going to borrow it. MR. J.

McKE NZIE: Well, he's going to borrow it and enter into that field with oil prices being sha ttered all around the world and nobody, that I can hear, can give you any indication of what prediction, of what the price of oil. It may go down as low as 20 bucks a barrel. So I'm sure that the resources of this government can take 415 that big marketpla ce on and we'll get into the oil business in Waskada and change the whole thing arou nd. Mr . Speaker , what a dream. The same thing applies with the insur ance business, Mr. Speaker. I don't see why we need more insurance companies in this province.

We've got what? - two head offices here now. A MEMBER: We had. MR. J. McKENZIE: We had, eh? One is gone. I've never heard of anybody that couldn't get insu rance for whatever item he wanted to insure in this province at the best rate in the world. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Chase 'em out, Wally. MR. J. McKENZIE: Nevertheless, Mr. Speaker, the other thing that kind of scares me about this Budget is this $200 million that's earmarked for - I daresay, Mr. Speak er, there's nobody in this pr ovince more concerned and more dedicated to finding jobs for the unemployed than myself.

I am most concerned to see in my lifetime what has happened in this world when we have these people, so many of them, millions of people unemployed, a million-and-a-hal f across Canada today out of work. But I don't think this Finance Minister and this government has taken the right approach to solve that problem. All you have to do today is take a look at today's Winnipeg Free Pr ess where there is a little pillow talk going along here from one Leslie Spillett who is well known around these halls.

She made a comment and she says she laughed out loud when she heard Howard Pawley's suggestion that trade union salary increases be used for job secur ity. "It's the craziest thing I ever heard ," said Leslie Spillett of the International Ladies Garment Workers. Farther over, Mr. Speaker, we see Pat McAvoy, of the Canadian Association of Industrial, Mechanical and Allied Workers, denouncing the idea, adding that his members are still trying to recover from the Federal Government's anti-in flation board guidelines of the '7 0's without trying to wading into Howard's new guidelin es.

He says, "We have nothing to give back, " that's what Pat said. She says they're sitting pretty smug al ready. Now they're laughing, Mr . Speak er. The other thing of course, Mr. Speak er, that concerns me about the financial structure of this thing is we have the 144 jobs created, which again I guess today's paper, by a news release from the Mini ster of Labour and do you know what these projects are, Mr. Speaker? It's very enlighte ning. They're going to put an addition to the rink at St. Malo. Now, isn't that going to boost the economy of this province and put us back on the rails?

They're going to do renovations to a church someplace and th ey're upgrading the rodeo grounds at Selkirk. If that's the kind of projects we're going to earmark this $200 million for, Mr. Finance Min ister, I suggest you better turn it around and start looking another way, because those kind of jobs are not going to put this province and that kind of work is not going to put this province back on the rails again, never.

Then, of course, we find out about the funding down at the bottom and Axworthy says he still doesn't know whether the Federal Government is going to contribute or not, in the same article, and that's what scares me

Tuesday, 1 March, 1983 about the way thi s thin g was put together , Mr. Speaker . It scares me because I suspect that the shoppin g list that the Minister of Finance has given us is not going to be acceptable to the average ci tizen of this provi nce when you're talking about building it and putting it back on the ra ils aga i n. He sai d the project certai nly looks good on paper but, as I said, where is the assurance fr om the Federal Government that they're going to get inv olved? You don't have it; neither does the First Minister have an assurance they're going to get in volved.

Where is your assurance from Mayor Norr ie and the Ci ty of Winnipeg that they're going to get in volved and share any of those programs? Have you got it? Have you la id it on the table? I don't think you have. Wher e is your assu ranc e fr om the municip alities of this provin ce that th ey're goin g to join in and go hand- in -hand with you on these projects? I don't see it, Mr . Speaker , and tha t' s what scares me, that's what scares me about this kind of a development plan because I don't think this government or this Finance Minister and his Ministers have done their homework on this project.

I really don't. Surely in this day and age, if you're talk i ng the tune of $200 million, you should at least give us the assurance that the Government of Canada is with you, that Mayor Norrie and the City of Winnipeg are with you and the municip alities of this prov in ce are with you. The Honour able Mi nis ter could have gone and spoken to the Un io n of Municip al ities in Brandon yesterday and asked hi m, "Are you with me on this?" I don't thi nk he did, Mr. Speaker, or if he already has they've turned hi m down because I don't hear that coming fr om the Mi nister of Municipal Affai rs or from the Mi nister.

So, Mr. Speaker , those kinds of thi ngs concern me and they concern the people of my constituen cy . Do you want to join the Premier in this kind of a venture plan, 200 million bucks, when we don't have the information, we don't have the detail s, we don't know what's going on and yet there's $200 million at stake? What's wrong with the Ci ty of Winnipeg? Why aren't they coming out and sayi ng that we're goin g to help the prov in ce and the people? I don't hear that and maybe because, Mr . Speak er, they're strapped for money. That may be the reason. They may be strapped for money worse than this governm ent.

They may be strapped for money worse than the Federal Government and that is the reason. I suspect that's the reason why the municip alities are not inv olved because they are strapped for money. The municip alities of this provin ce, Mr. Speak er, are looki ng for new ways. They're even talk i ng and maybe aski ng this Minister of Municipal Affair s today for hi m to give them permission to do deficit financin g the same as you do with your Minister of Finance and maybe they should have that right, but they are strapped for money. The City of Winnipeg has the same problem and yet, Mr .

Speak er, this government comes up with a $200 million plan. I am most concerned about the way this thing has been put together and what little information we, in the Opposition, and the people in this provin ce have been offered. What about the school boards in this prov in ce, Mr . Speaker? What communic atio ns have you had with them? I don't think they've had any because I see a notice here from my school board, the lntermounta in School Divi sion, are holding their costs down. If they're not they're at least 416 trying to.

That's more than we can say from this Minister of Finance who's allo wed his spendi ng to escalate 17 percent. School boards are tryin g to hold down their costs. Now who's kidding who? Are you going to go on one course and let the school boards go on another course? Is that the mishmash that we're going to put the people of this provin ce in? Or when are we goin g to start talk in g, Mr . Speaker? What's the other choice, Mr. Speaker, what's the other choice? What if the feds refuse? What if Mr. Axworthy says, I don't want no part of it? Then what's goin g to happen? They haven't told us, Mr.

Speaker, they haven't told the 57, 000 unemployed people in this provin ce what's goin g to happen if the feds don't join t you. Mr. Speaker , what's going to happen if Mayor Norrie says, I don't want no part of it; or what if Mayor Norrie says the city doesn't have any money, what's going to happen, Mr. Speaker? What if the municip alities say we don't have any money or we don't have the power with a deficit financ in g, what's goin g to happen? Is this government goin g to go it alone, Mr . Speaker? Are they going to start buildin g ra il roads to Chu rchi ll which is a federal responsi bility?

Is that what you in tend to do with the tax dollars that you're goin g to borrow? - (Interjecti on)- Well, I'd like to know, Mr. Speaker , I'd like to know. Mr. Speaker , we asked them in the question period, how many jobs do you expect to get out of $200 million? No ans wers, not a word. We asked them, what kind of rate of pay are you going to pay these people that are unemployed? Nobody told us, we got no answers, Mr. Speaker . The Premi er, of course, did announce on Friday, I think, that a subcommit tee of Cabinet has been formed. Mr.

Speak er, I'm scared of this $200 million job creat i ng plan, I'm scared sick of it. There's not enough information on the table. This government has not shown to me that they've done anythi ng basically at all, they should change the whole thi ng around to help these people in this provin ce, the 57,000 people who are unemployed. You have basically done nothi ng. I can't see it. You don't have assu ranc e fr om th e Federal Government, Mr. Axworthy; you have no assurance from the Ci ty of Winnipeg; you have no assurance fr om the municip alities in this provin ce, so there fore what are you going to do?

You'r e going to go it alone. Or have you got these assurances? We don't have them, Mr. Spea ker, and that's the tragedy . The Premier and the Minister of Finance want us to trust this government. They thi nk that we over here should have confidence in this government. They think that because of these. statements that have been made and this Budg et that's been laid on our table, that we should go to rest and leave you guys to run this place, Mr. Speaker. I say never, never. Never let a sociali st run a government, Mr . Speaker , not this band of socia lists, at least. This provin ce, Mr.

Speaker , is in the most difficult times it's ever been in its history. It's bust, the pr ovince is absolutely broke. If we let you guys finish out your two more years of office and you don't clean up your spendi ng programs in the next two years any better than you have in the last two years, good-bye Manitoba, and that's a tragedy . I hate to see it happen ri ght here before my eyes. But, Mr. Spea ker, this government and this Minister of Finance, they will not listen to the man on the street,

Tuesday, 1 March, 1983 they don't un derstand. As I said, Mr. Speak er, we are spending too much of the taxpayers' money in this province, over $326 billion, Mr. Speaker , that's being spent in this provinc e. When I came here in 1966 as I'v e said, the Budget, the spending Estimates of the government of that day was $301 million. I say, Mr . Speaker , I have no confidence in this government and I will be voting against the Bud get that was presented by the Min ister of Finance of this province. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER, Mr. P. Eyler: The Honourable Minis ter of Government Services. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I welcome this opportunity to partici pate in the Budg et Debate. It is my fir st opportuni ty to speak since the opening of the sitting and I will endeavour to contribute in a positive fa shion to add to what my honourable colleague the Mi nister of Financ e, has done in his delivery of the Budget last Thursday night and also my other colleagues that have also added positively to that debate.

Since the opposition, particularly the Member for Pembina, has not had the courage to stand up and ask me a question in this House up to now, or even to allow me to take a question as notice, I will give him the answers today an yway, Mr. Speaker.

Not wanting to infer any other motives I would assume that the Member for Pembina is just a bit shy, and having been a teacher I can recogn ize that qual ity, and I'd like to be able to assist him today by providing some background knowledge so that it will break the ice for him and perhaps he will no longer feel so intimida ted and will be able to ask a question of me in the near future here in this House. Of course, since having a basic knowledge is a necessity, a prerequisite to asking questions, I will try to accomplish that for all of the members opposite here today. Mr .

Spea ker, it is so tempting to be negative in this House, to criticize in a destructive fashion, to hur l insults, innuendo es, such as the Leader of the Opposition and cliches to tear down instead of to build up. It is so tempting to focus, Mr. Speaker, on the contradictions in the Tory position, in their Tory practice, the words and the criticism that they supply with us here; to point out their dismal record from 1977 to 1981, those four long dark years for Manitoba; to also point out the long list of broken promises that they are party to, Mr.

Speaker , the broken promises to the Native people, to the homeowners, to the health care system, to the education system; the broken promises to the City of Winnipeg and to the women of Manitoba. They say we have broken promises, Mr. Spea ker, . . . MR. D. BLAKE: I never promised them anything. HON. J. PLOHMAN: . . . but listen to theirs. They constantly refer to our broken promises.

The Member for Pembina referred to them yesterday and he was highligh ted in the paper with his litany of layoffs that the Premier promised would not happen, he says, and another member who said that the Budget was a repudiation of the campaign promises of the NOP. But what did they do? Let's look at some of their broken promises, Mr. Speak er. They said in 1977 they were going to study the tax credit scheme for mortgage 417 interest payments of first-time homeowners, the verdict, no study, no scheme.

They said that they would provide low-i nterest loans to fir st-t ime ho meowners to encourage the purchase of substandard core area homes, no action is the verdict. Mr . Speak er, they said that they would review . . . MR. D. BLAKE: Who wrote that article? HON. J. PLOHMAN: . . . with municipalities all zoning regulations to simplify and reduce costs of project approvals, the verdict, no action. They said, Mr. Speaker, that they would provide a tax credit system to encourage home improvements, the verdict, no action. They said, Mr .

Speak er, they would remove sales tax on house­ building materials such as insulation, the verdict, no breaks on insulation. For the renter they accomplished a promise, Mr. Speaker , they said they would remove rent controls and they did, done in Ju ly 1980. Something to be proud of. They said, Mr. Speaker, that they would provide incentives to encourage private sector development of low rental housing, the verdict, no incentives. They said they would provide government rental housing as needed but institute a plan to let tenants purchase units.

The verdict: family housing construction ceased in 1979, no such purcha se plan. That's just another one of their promises, Mr. Speaker. They said they would eliminate the de ficit. They never could get rid of it despite their acute protra cted restraint. They said, Mr. Speak er, they would provide students with basic skills and informa tion. There was no noticeable improvement. Let's look at what they said, Mr. Speak er, with regard to the Natives, the Native people of this province. They said they would develop programs on the basis of direct contact with the communities. The verdict: less community autono my.

They said they would req uire all northern development projects to provide clear forecasts of Native jobs and to include Native preference purchasing policies where feasible. The verdict: no such requirements. They said they would support settlements for rea sonable and legitimate land claims. The verdict, Mr. Speaker: no such set tlements. They said they would provide extension and improvement of local services acc ording to commun ity desire. The verdict: no noticeable improvement. They said they would monitor programs to ensure that administration costs are controlled. What do they do?

They laid off 400 civil servants in the Department of Nor thern Affa ir s and Renewable Resources to cut administration costs. That was their priorities, Mr. Speaker . In health care, and I am only going to go through it very briefly, Mr. Speaker , what did they say they were going to do? I am not going to talk about these things, I am just going to run through the list. What did they say for women, Mr. Speaker? They said they were going to ensure equal pay for equal work. The verdict: no ac tion.

They said they would incr ease the number of women appoint ed to provi ncial boards and commissions and even Tory women didn't succeed in that case - no noticeable improvement, Mr. Speak er. They said they would give clerical workers incr eased access to promotion. The verd ict: no noticeable

Tuesday, 1 March, 1983 improvement. They said they would encourage split shi fts to help moth ers who work part-time - no noticeable im provement. They said they would provide quality control and leadersh ip of day care, Mr . Speaker - no quality control. That comes, Mr. Speaker, directly from the Winnipeg Free Press, Saturd ay, May 2, 1981. What did they say to the City of Winnipeg? They said they were going to provide elected community councils with responsi bility for local matters. The verdict: no action. They said they would provide a new central council for area wide matters - no action.

They said they would appoint a general ma nager or chie f ad ministrator - no action. They said they would let local council set levels of services. The verdict: no action. They said they would permit neighbourhoods to levy taxes for special local amenities - no action, Mr. Speaker . And was that a positive contribution to this Budget Debate? No, it wasn 't. Ju st like the contribution from that other side of the House, Mr. Speaker , it has not been positive; it has been negative right from the start.

It wasn't positive, it was not a construct ive contribution to this Budget Debate and we've seen that time and again here. All it shows, Mr . Speaker, it proves that two can play that game. Two can play that game and that promises are goals that we all work toward and hope to accomplish and that none of us accomplish them all. That's what it shows, Mr. Speaker. I re ferred to my disappointment with the opposition this morning on my radio program on CKDM which I do each morning, if the members of the opposition would like to listen to it. HON. L. DESJARDINS: What time? HON. J. PLOHMAN: At 9:35 a.m. on CKDM.

I try to keep my comments positive, Mr . Speaker, but I will say that this morning, if I may be allowed to quote from myself , I have to admi t tha t one of my gr eatest disappointments has been the lack of construct ive criticism by the opposition. We, in government, are always anxious to hear suggestions from the opposition but almost without exception they fa il to offer anything but criticism. It's time, Mr. Speaker, for us to look forward, to look ahead, to look forward and to advance our positive policies and programs for the future of Manitoba. MR. J. DOWNEY: Payroll tax. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: So I will not concent rate on those negative things that I just brief ly referred to, Mr. Speaker. I won't concentr ate on that negative criticism that we hear coming from the other side, criticism for the sake of criticism. I will talk instead about our future and what we are doing in this province to ensure the future, to make it a better one for Manitoba.

During these difficult economic times, our govern ment has put together one of the most creative Budgets in the history of this province, a Budg et of compassion for the people of Manitoba, one conceived fr om a co-operative initia tive of consultation. Our government has shown that we believe in Manitoba, that we believe in the people of Manitoba and we believe in the future of Manitoba.

The major thrust of this Budget, the Jo bs Fund, demonstrates that our government is willing to attack 418 the problems that we fa ce, to tackle them head on and to bring together all segments of society in a co­ operative way, to work together so they can feel a sense of resp onsibili ty when the ac complishm ents are recognized and are realized in this province, when we solve those problems that we all fa ce in Manitoba and Canada. So we can point to an example, Mr. Speaker , the Mani toba Government Empl oyees Association Agreement. It is an historic milestone.

It is only one tha t a New Democratic Gover nment could have accomplished, Mr Speaker.- (Interjection)- No, a Tory Government could not acco mplish that because they don't believe in consultation. They don't believe in joint responsibility with the labour sector, with business and working together with government, so they could not have taken the initiative that we took in this province, that we have taken with the Manitoba Government Employees Association in a positive fashion to sit down and discuss the problems that we face and to come up with a positive method of alleviating those problems here in Manitoba.

Mr . Speak er, we took a posi tive appr oac h, a constructive approach, so we don't have strikes and walkouts, shutdowns and the tremendously antagonistic feelings that exist in provinces like British Columbia and Quebec. No, we' re working together here in Manitoba, Mr . Speaker, and only a New Democratic Government could have done that. We have reduced the contra ct from 10.3 percent for 1983-84 down to 7.7 percent, simply by extending the effective dates through negotiation . . . MR. D. ORCHARD: That's more honest than your Leader. HON. J. PLOHMAN: . . . and goodwill on all sides. That is a milestone, Mr.

Speaker, that is a breakth rough. It is a significant breakthrough ; it cannot be overstate d. We hope that this can be set up as a model for other labour groups in other segments of the public sector as well as the priv ate sector to work together in the same fa shion tha t we ha ve worked together in accomplishing this agreement, so they can help those who are less fortuna te, those who are not as fortuna te as the people that are working today, those who are not fortunate enough to have work. So Tories would have legislated, Mr. Speaker, people would have been in the streets.

They would have had confontation but not with our government. We have turned the tide on those confrontationist policies. We. have rejected the Tories' confrontationist policies and we have done more than that. We've established much more. Mr . Speaker, we have est abl ished another very important principle in this province, and that is the principle of dollar settlements, a dollar settlement which gives relatively more to those at the lower end of the pay scale and less to those at the high end. That was an important concept contained in the renegotiated agreement, Mr. Speaker.

Mo st of all, the most significant point in th at renego tia ted agreement was the contribution of over $10 million by the government emplo yees of this pr ovince to the Jo bs Fund. A significant contribution, Mr. Speaker , to the Jobs Fund. I want to talk for a few moments about the Jo bs Fund, the employment fund, which will serve two major

Tuesday, 1 March, 1983 purposes. It will serve to provide jobs now when they're needed most by Manitobans and would also provide long term benefits to Manitoba and Manitobans. It will provide meaning ful labour intensive jobs to build our infrastructure, to add to our welfare in Manitoba and to provide worthwhile, needed fa cili ties and structures and services for the people of Manitoba. I want to briefly give some examples of the kinds of projects that will be delivered by one department, by the Department of Government Services, with respect to the Job s Fund.

Projects that are proposed under that Jo bs Fund could be delivered by my department. I think they give an excellent example of a cross

section of what we are trying to accomplish with the Job s Fund in the way of fa cilities and services, and at the same time, providing projects with a high degree of labour intensit y. There's an addi tion to the Food Pr oducts Development Centr e in Portage la Prair ie; a new gymnasium for the Winnipeg School for the Deaf . There's a diesel auto shop expansion at Red River Communi ty College and a Learning Resource Centre expansion also at Red River Commu nity Coll ege. There's the Fire College renovations in Winnip eg.

There's a replacement of the public health nursing stations at Pikwitonei, Moose Lake and Easterville. There's the improvements of the Correctional Centre for Women in Portage la Prairie. Those, Mr. Spea ker, are just a few examples of the programs that we're incorporating in that fund. They are not painting fences. They are not make-work projects. They are not brush­ cutting, Mr. Speaker . They are meani ngful projects that will contri bute meani ngful job s for the people of Manitoba. The list goes on.

It expands throughout the provin ce; worthwhile structures; meaningful jobs; water and sewer improvements; roads; hospitals ; hydro and telephone improvements; housing; industr y; water management projects. These are just a few examples of the kinds of things tha t will be contained, of wha t we will accomplish with that. Where did we find the money for the $200 million for the Job s Fund, Mr . Speaker? Where will we find the money for that? Where is it to come from? Certain ly, we are asking other levels of government to contribute to matching those funds.

Certain ly, we have asked other levels of government to do that. Where will we get our dollars, Mr. Speaker? Will we get them only from incr eased taxes? No, we won't. A MEMBER: The overburdened taxpa yer. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Will we get them only fr om an incr eased deficit, Mr. Speaker? No, we won't. They contri but ed, Mr . Speaker . They have contribut ed. There's somet hing fa r more important tha t ha s contri buted for thos e extra dol lars and tha t is repriorization. Repriorization. Let me give you some examples from only one department, the Department of Government Services.

How did we free up money for the Jobs Fund, Mr . Speaker? How did we do it? Here's how we did it. Here's the an swer. Mr. Speaker , they haven't asked the question, I' ll give them the answer anyway. In terms of energy conserva tion , over the past year, the Department of Energy, Management and Technical 419 Services Branch of my department and its building managers have applied nu merous, inn ovative and proven energy conservation techniques to reduce energy consumption in the operation of government buildings.

I am pleased to report that we are continuing to achieve 20 percent to 25 percent reduction in energy consumption in government buildings. Relative to the 1979-80 base year, energy savings are now amounting to a cost avoidance of $3,000 per day. In the 1983 -84 fiscal year, the energy consu mption red uction is expected to achieve a real saving of $1.5 million. With fur ther application of inno vative energy conservation techniques, these savings can be expected to amplify over the coming years. An energy efficiency is being built into, Mr. Speaker , the design for new government buildings.

Design guideli nes are issued to the primary design consultant and energy consumption is monitored upon completion of building projects to ensure design effectiveness. We've gone to day cleaning in the buildings. An

article yesterday in the Winnipeg Sun, "Cleaning During Day is Saving Buck s." Listen to this: "Un til this year when the Torie s were in gov ernment," we can always remember, "some cle aning crews in gover nment buildings had never worked during the day. They kept them in the dark. Those night stalkers are now part of a program that has saved taxpayers more than $3 million. Day cleaning is one of a number of actions implemented by the government to trim energy costs.

One of the most important changes was having some buildings cleaned during the daytime." It goes to say, "Whole buildings can now be shut down at night, cutting electricity and heating costs. 'People have accepted it well,' says Stu Ersel, head of the Government's Energy Management Branch. 'All government buildings will be cleaned during the day beginning later this year .'" There's an example of repriorization and common sense, Mr. Speaker . What about the gove rnment's lead veh icl e downsizing, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER , J. Walding: The Honour able Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. J.

JOHNSTON: I wonder if the honourable member would permit a question? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Speaker , I would be glad to permit a question at the end of the speech. It's going to be some irrelevant comment, Mr. Speaker, that's just going to take away fr om the intent of what we're talking about. Mr. Speaker , I hope the member will give me that question a little later on. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I'm having some difficulty in hearing the Honourable Min ister. Perhaps honourable members would give him the same courtesy of a hearing that they would expect for themselves. The Honourable Min ister. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: In the upcoming fiscal year, 93 percent of all sedans will be compact or sub-compact models. Gr eater emphasis is now being pl aced on sub­ compacts than ever before, and no full size sedans are being authorized.

Tuesday, 1 March, 1983 The major policy change of rest rictions to the type of vehicles assigned to Deputy Mi nisters and Min isters assigning them to compact sedan models will also be implemented. Jn upcoming years, the replacement of executive driven sedans for Crown corporations as well, with compact models will incr ease the proportion of com pact models in the fl eet , in both the Cr own corporation fl eet , as well as the go ve rnment departmental fleets. This applies to Crown corporations, Mr. Speaker, and there's a gr eater emphasis being placed on that.

For the honourable members, we recognize that they started moving toward compact cars ; give credit where credit is due - we are stepping up that program. In addition to having a lower purchase price, compact and subcompact models are more cost efficient than larger sedans in terms of gasoline consumption and some re quir ed maintenance. Fleet station wagons, vans and trucks are also being replaced with more economical fuel efficient models. As well, it is antici pated that a signi fic ant numb er of un deruti li zed cars, underutili zed over the past two years, will be recalled.

Also a large number of seasonal vehicles will be removed from the vehicle fleet for a significant saving there as well. That is another example of repriorization for the honourable members. Transportation costs tor in-province tra vel for the Field Services Division will be reduced. Out-of-province tra vel will also be limited. We will be disposing of a significant number of the employee housing units, Mr. Speak er.

Ther e will be a red uction in the offi ce equipm ent program, a reduction in photo copier costs, reduction in key photo copier costs by utilizing the most ec onomical pricing av ailable un der the government's standing offer copier program, and there will be significant savings in the post office branch by changing the methods for sending out certain pieces of mail by placing them together, by distributing through the interdepartmental mail instead of through Canada Post. Simple measures, Mr. Speaker , that save money. MR. C. MANNESS: What does this add up to? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: In working with the Department of Education we are also closing the community colleges where possible during the Christmas week, between December 24th to January 2nd, for significant cost savings on the heat. We have cut back on service contr acts and we have cut back as well, Mr. Speaker , in the temperatures of certain government buildings such as the old central vehicle garage, Fort Osborne complex, old Land Titles Building and so on, low enough so that it will save significant dollars in terms of energy but not do structural damage and those are just some examples, Mr . Spea ker.

I could give more of how we in Government Services repriorized to tree up money for the Jobs Fund and there are many more. I want to deal with another program that was touched on now, Mr. Speaker, to turn to a program, a significant program, that was touched on by my honourable colleague, the Mi nister of Economic Development and Tourism , the Buy Manitoba Program.

It will be my Department of Government Services that will implement that program along with Crown Investments who will be working with Crown corporations to incr ease the impact of our Buy Manitoba initiativ es. 420 I want to deal with the Department of Government Services, with how that Department of Government Services is facilitating this program. Mr. Speak er, it is not a simple matter. MR. C. MANNESS: How much money are you savi ng? HON. J. PLOHMAN: It has taken many months of working together closely with the Department of Economic Development.

It is a program that is going to contribute significantly to meeting the challenges of economic development in this province and also to incr ease the regional balance of trade in this province and development of regional balance. I am particularly pleased with the input we received from consultation with industry at forums such as the recent Portage Ja Prairie Summit. This contril Juted to the overall development - and we're not afraid to admit that we have gone out and consulted - and they have contribut ed significa ntly. MR. C. MANNESS: How about the mild winter? How much did that cost? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Recently my department has been reviewing tendering practices with the intent of making improvements that will allow Manitoba suppliers to more easily compete in the competition for goods and services required by the Manitoba Government. The intention is to ensure that tender sizes and components are suited to the Manitoba capabilities inasmuch as possible, while remai nin g eco nom ically and administratively efficient. It will also ensure the incr eased use of generic names so that larger out-of-pr ovince suppliers do not receive an automatic advantage through brand name re cognition.

It will also ensur e tha t per formance specifications are used as much as possible to describe the req ui rements of a produc t rather than actual physical descriptions. It will ensure that to incr ease opportunities for rural suppliers to bid on products requir ed for rural localities, tenders indicate the locality where the goods and services are to be used and declare that locality as the delivery point for the goods. It will ensure as well, Mr.

Speaker , that adequa te information is made av ailable regarding tender re qui rements and ev aluation and that tender infor ma tion is appropr iately and adequa tely communicated to achieve all of those results. As well, to provide more support for Manitoba's manufacturers, · we have instituted gr eater flexibility in an element of discretion in this program, into our tender evaluation practices.

Specifical ly, purchasing authorities within central government departm ents have begun to identi fy situations where Ma nito ba-made produc ts are in competition with out-of-province products and there is a marginal price advantage to purchasing the goods from out of province. In such situations purchasing authorities have been directed to refer those contracts to senior management. Where it is in the best interests of the economic development of Manitoba to do so, the government may exercise discretion and award contracts in fa vour of Manitoba-made products at a marginally higher price.

Tuesday, 1 March, 1983 Criteria to be used in assessing the merits of award ing a price pre ference will include extra costs versus anticipated revenues from incr eased economic activity; will include such things as the significance of the particular industry in the provin ce; it will include the technological importance of the industry and the related jobs; and it will include the opportunity for further expansion of the industry. In some situations a full economic impact eval uation will be carried out and Crown corporations will be asked to adopt similar measures as appropriate. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: John, where did you buy the rug for the Premier? HON. J. PLOHl\ll AN: That rug was probably ordered by the previous administration. l\ll R. A. ANSTETT: Absolut ely, right on. HON. J. PLOHMAN: This discretionary approach, Mr. Speaker, to award ing a price preference has been adopted to allow some preference to be shown to Manitoba manufacturers in those situations where it can have a significant impact on Manitoba industry. This aspect of the Buy Manitoba Program will be care fully mon itored to ensure that it is meeting the intended objectives.

To this end, information related to Ma ni toba content will be requested on ten der documents. But some may ask, why not a fixed Manitoba price preference? Why not a fixed preference? There are a number of reasons. Price preferences will not be awarded routinely in order to avoid a dependency on price preference fr om developing.

As well, fixed price preferences or guide lines for Manitoba products were avoided to discourage unwarranted pr ice increases and because of the government's desire, not to encourage fur ther provincial trade barriers and as wel l, the possibility of retaliation against Manitoba's important export business. These inherent weaknesses of a fixed price preference policy have been repeatedly brought to the government's att ention. They've been brought to our attention repeatedly through representation from businesses and labour and we have listened.

As announc ed by the Mi ni ster of Economic Devel opment a fur ther initia tive of the Buy Manitoba Program will be the introduc tion of a pilot program of purchasing audits whereby an analysis of the purchasing requirements of specific government departments and Crown corporations will be undertaken to identify new supply opportunities for local businesses, and new opportun ities for industrial development projects.

As Min ister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System I am pleased to announce that the Manitoba Telephone System has agreed to be one of the first participants in that program of purchasing audits. As I have said, an important part of this program will be the ongoing monitoring which will take place to ensure that it is meeting the stated objectives. Equally important is the flexible nature of the program - and I can't overemphasize that the flexible nature of the program.

We will continue as well our consultative process with business and with labour and are anxious to receive reco mmendations which can be used for the 421 impr ovement of the program over time. As well, a purchasing committee consisting of representatives of the Department of Go vernment Services, the Department of Economic Development and Tourism, Crown Investments and Finance will be formal ized and will be responsible for co-ordinating the program and dealing with further policy development issues.

As the Min ister of Econ omic Dev elopment and Tourism so adamantly stated we feel it is imperativ e that the priv ate sector join with this new initia tive, join government, to incr ease manufacturing activity and jobs for Manitobans. I believe we are making a significant start in this regard. Now, Mr . Speaker , I would like to deal with another fi eld un der my re sponsibili ty that of the tele communic ations field, the Ma nitoba Telephone System, br iefly.

There, too, we are looking forward to guaranteeing the services offered and acces sibility to those services offered by the Manitoba Telephone System and to gua rantee also an affordable basic telephone service for all Manitobans. Again, I want to provide some information as to direction so that it will provide some tidbits for the Member for Pembina in his question ing. A prominent part of our future will be technological inn ovation.

Only a few weeks ago we saw Time Magazine name the man of the year a computer, which recogniz ed that this important device is going to have an even greater effect in our lives over the next months and years. As Mini ster responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System, I have come to recognize that there is a great array of other technology that will pla y increasingly significant roles in our lives. MTS, through care fully developed field trials and operational practices, has become fa miliar with the lead ing edge of communications techno logy.

Coaxial cable and fibre optic s as wel l as sat ellite transmis sion and da ta communications are now the workaday tools of what used to a plain old telephone company. MT S tranf ormation to a com prehens ive telecommunications company has come about, not from the availability of tech nology alone, but because more and more MTS' customers are demanding a wider range of services to meet the changing needs. We are in a changing society. I believe we are fortuna te to have a provincially owned and operated telephone system that has the expertise and foresight to meet that future for the benefit of all Manitobans.

One reason MTS has been able to adapt so well to the changing demands placed on it, and we have to give credit again where credit is due, Mr. Speaker , to the honour able members, is because successive governments in Manitoba have recognized the value and the role of a designated provincial common carrier for telecommunications. Some governments have threatened that to varying degr ees, Mr . Speaker, our government will not.

Specifically those governments have stated time and time again that MTS has an obligation to plan and build and operate and maintain an integrated communication system for the benefit of all Mani tobans. This policy guida nce has required that MTS design its facilities so that they can be used by many customers, for any number of potential users, and that care can be taken to ensure tha t the prices of services are kept reasonable for Manitobans. In short, the ongoing objective of

Tuesday, 1 March, 1983 Manitoba has been to create a broad electronic highway to service the emerging telecommunication needs of our citizens. The means to that end as recognized by a number of Provincial Governments has been to identi fy MT S as the owner and operator of tha t electronic high way.

Now, more than ever before it needs . . . and the significant point is, it needs legisl ative protection against emerging competition that threatens its gr eatest and traditional revenue sou rces , that competition which threatens the abili ty of MTS to meet its primary objective of providing residential telephone service to all Manitobans at a reaso nable cost. As well, other sources of revenue must be found to supplement the traditional revenue base pay TV in its broad est sense - and MTS offers such possibilities.

Over the years MTS has built up enormous expertise in the telecommunications field and has not always taken full advantage of it. The formation of MTS with a manda te to operate outside the Province of Manitoba will ensure that the Manitoba Telephone System and the people of Manitoba will gain full advantage of that accu mula ted human expertise. Now MTS can pursue opportunities as they arise in other countries who need our technol ogy. This will benefit greatly all Manitobans , particularly residential telephone users.

Consequently , I want to assure this House that one of the ways our government intends to secure the future of Manitobans is to reassert Manitoba's intent to nur ture and extend that electronic highw ay and to that end to reconfirm MTS's role and manda te over the development and operation of that hig hway. Manitobans can continue to be assured of the security that this decision will offer them. Mr.

Speak er, I would like to briefly tie together some of the thin gs I said earlier about being posit ive, construc tive and working with Manitobans in a co­ operativ e, compassiona te and a creative way for the benefit of all Ma nitobans and with confidenc e in Manitoba's future, something that is not demonstrated by our honourable members across the way. I ask the opposition to come forward with their ideas, to cease the pointless venomous bickering and to come forward, Mr. Speak er, with positive contributions that we are so lacking , not just to attack our position but develop a position of their own.

It was so clearly and unfortunately evidenced in the words of the Member for Kirkfield Park yesterday when she was asked about whether she was in favour of certain tax changes and she said to the effect that it's not her job to have a position, that it's not up to me to decide whether I'm opposed or not. A MEMBER: Sounds like a Tory. HON. J. PLOHMAN: That is what's wrong with this House, Mr. Speak er, that's what 's wrong with this opposition.

I ask the opposition to live up to their name, Her Ma jesty's Loyal Op position , and to make construc tive contributions to this debate so that we can move forward together in this province. Thank you, Mr. Speak er. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Does the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek have a question? MR. J. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker , the member said he would entertain a question at the end of his speech. 422 Mr.

Speaker , is the $1 million that the member says that he is saving on the daytime cleaning , will that just offset the $1 million increased cost admitted by the Mini ster of Finance that is taking place in the province by not tendering out the other cleaning in provincial buildings. Does one offset the other? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Speaker , there are many reasons why the government has proceeded to move to in house cleaning. Certainly , it has provided an equitable wage and a high morale labour force for government buildings, a high degree of cleaning in the buildings. We are pleased with the results of that.

But I will say, Mr . Speaker, to the honourable member that the savings that have been accrued over the years with the day cleaning have certainly more than offset the costs that have been in place. If he's talking about, Mr. Speaker, that one offsets the other exactly, I can't give him the exact details of that.- (Int erject ion)- MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOUR LAY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I also thank the Assembly for the applause at the start of this Debate. I apprecia te the opportunity to partici pate in the Budget Debate at this time.

I would also like to take this opportunity to welcome our new Clerk, Mr. Remna nt, and wish him well in his new endeavou rs. It was interesting to listen to the comments from the Member for Dauphin , the Min ister of Government Services. He covered a lot of innovative areas that will supposedly be -(Int erjection)- energy saving and cost saving. A lot of it is flailing old str aw. We've heard most of this at some point in time in the last 20 years or thereabouts . I can recall as a civil servant we went to sub-compact cars .

That didn't last very long and I don't know just how easy it's going to be for the present Mini ster of Health to get into a sub-compact car, but we'll just have to wait to see how that manages. The Min ister of Government Services also made some statements at the beginning of his speech that the former administration had laid off some 40 0 personnel in the Department of Northern Affairs. I'd like to correct the record that is not an accurate statement; there was not 40 0 people in the Department of Northern Affairs ever laid off. MR. A. ANSTETT: Wa.3 the Free Press wrong? MR. D.

GOURLAY: It's not up to me to say whether the Free Press was wrong or not, but I can tell you about the Department of Northern Affairs, that 400 people were not laid off in the department. Members here will recall that under the former Schr eyer administration , the Department of Northern Manitoba had many duplications of services in this province. There was a transfer of some 350 people to line departm ents in the Province of Manito ba. I would just like to correct the Mini ster of Government Services for making that kind of statement at the beginning of his speech.

The Min ister of Finance commenced his Budget Address by saying employment was the No. 1 problem

Tuesday, 1 March, 1983 in Manitoba. Then he went on to say creating jobs and saving jobs were the most important objectives of the NOP. This is absolutely hypocritical. Since taking office some 15 months ago, there has been 30,000 jobs lost in this province. That 's an average of 2,000 jobs a month over the last 15 months; 30,000 jobs have been lost in this province. The Mini ster of Finance says that the No. 1 project that he has is to create and save jobs. I think he's got his priorities mixed up somewhere. He's already lost 30,000 jobs in the short time th ey've been in office.

Not only that, it's getting worse day­ by-day, every day you pick up the paper . Ju st recently the Bissett Gold Mine states they're going to be shutting down earlier this year. There's 178 people, I believe, that will be laid off from that project. Dominion Stores have indicated that they're going to be closing out four stores very shortly. It's also been reported in the local newspapers, the same one that the Government Services Minis ter was quoting from, that Dominion Stores would like to pull up their entire operation in this province.

This is not a very positive situation; it's regrettable that this kind of thing is happening in our province. The present government has introduced a payroll tax. This payroll tax, as I recall, the Min ister of Finance a year ago when he introduc ed it, it was mainly to get at the Federal Government to recover some of the lost tran sfer of payments that the province was not able to enjoy. Many government departments and municipal organizations were also going to have to pay this 1.5 percent payroll tax in order to get the feds to honour their commitment.

We realize, of course, that the feds have not come through with their 1.5 percent payroll deductions, so it leaves the bulk of the payments on the small bu sine ss oper ators of the Provinc e of Manitoba. They're the ones that are really getting the brunt of this payroll tax. Certain ly, this tax is not going to encourage new busine sses to locate in this province. As the Mi nister of Financ e indicated in his Budget Speech last week, he had hoped that they could have added an additional gross income tax as well as an additional upper level income tax.

He said it was unfortunate that Ottawa wouldn't let the province proceed with this kind of additional taxation. This kind of taxation doesn't exactly entice businesses or new opera tions to become established in the Province of Manitoba to create the kind of jobs that are meaningful and the kind of jobs that we would like to see come to this province.

I would like to quote from Page 4 of the Budg et Address, bottom of the page: "But, in November of 1981, the people of Manitoba made it clear that they wanted a government which is not afraid to admit to the problems which are thr eatening our province, and which is not afraid to confront them directly, in a responsible and creative way, with every resource we can marshal!. " MR. G. FILMON: Take the bull by the tail and look him square in the eye. MR. D. GOUR LAY: Yes, tha t's right. Take the bull and look him straight in the eye, and the people of Manitoba have been getting crapped on.

But what did the NOP promise the people in November of '81? Remember 423 the "Clear Choice for Manitobans," policies of the New Democratic Party? This is what the people were promised by the present gover nment and right on the second page, it was the policies of the Manitoba NOP. Right on the second page is the very prominent picture of Premier Howard Pawle y, and he says we can turn around the harsh economic circu mstanc es of the past four years. We can provide interest rate relie f and an economic clima te to ensure that small business stay in business.

We can ensure that Manitoba farms remain in the hands of Manitoba farmers through The Farmlands Protection Act and the letter goes on, and this is signed by the Prem ier, Howard Pawley. I know that the present Premier on many occasions had said tha t orderly devel opment of no rthern generating stations would commence immedia tely. There would be an immed iate start-up of Limestone. Well, we all know that hasn 't happened.

Manitoba New Democrats would provide security from layoffs, up to 12 months notice or compensation to employees would be required in the event of shutdowns or layoffs involving more than 50 people. That was another promise that was made to the people in November of 1981. Our health care system has been al lowed to deteriorate over the last three or four years, and so the message goes on and on. So those are the kinds of things that the people of Manitoba were asked to support and they believed that the New Democrats were sincere in making these kinds of promises.

So when you really assess all of this, this kind of garbage certainly can fool some of the people but it didn't fool all of the people, thank goodness. But those kinds of political garbage brochures are what gives politicians a bad name.

You look at the recap, the loss of 30,000 jobs that were created during the tenure of the previous P.C. admin istration and those jobs have now gone down the drain in the last 15 months, but also look at the further losses of job potential that were in the grasps of the new government when they came into office in November of 1981: The loss of the Power Grid which would have created many long-term, meaningful jobs to Manitobans and, not only that, the gr eat economic spin-off that would have been a benefit to all people in the Province of Manitoba; the potash mine that was a near thing in the area of McAuley; and also the Alcan smelter which was making strides to become established in the Province of Manitoba.

So really when you'r e looking at our No. 1 problem, it's really the NOP Government in this province. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Call an election, Howard. MR. D. GOURL AY: You know, the Mini ster of Finance, the Premier and the Mini ster of Government Services, they continually keep making references to the great Economic Summit Conference