ISSN 0542-5492 Third Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 33 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXII No. 36A- 2:00 p.m, TUESDAY, 5 JUNE, 1984. Printed by tl>e Office of tl>e Que.�s Printer. Province of Manitobll

MANIT OBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pate) ANSTETT, Hon. Andy ASHTON, Stave BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David A. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, Hon. John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, O.C., Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Hon. Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EYANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER,Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon.

Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J. Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOYNATS,Abe LECUYER, Hon. Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. AI . MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, O.C., Hon. Howard A. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, Hon. John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vie SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Hon. Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfie!d Thompson La Ver endrye Min nedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ell ice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concord la Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin- Russell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnks ter Fort Garry Os borne River Heights Flin Flon lnterlake Lac du Bonnet St.

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LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANI TOBA Tuesday, 5 June, 1984. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MA. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Culture. HON. E. KOSTYAA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a ministerial statement.

My annou ncement today is as Chairperson of the Manitoba Jobs Fund and concerns the start-up of a program to provide employment and lasting facilities for residents in the northern part of the province. The Northern Community Assets Program will provide funding for non-profit community service organizations and for Indian bands to construct facilities of lasting benefit. At the same time, these projects will generate employment for local people.

Unem ployment remains a chronic problem in the North, and through this initiative we are able to provide a buffer for northern people by providing them with meaningful employment. Last year, under a similar program, there were 109 projects undertaken. These projects included: - renovat ions to community halls in National .

Mills, Waterhen and Grand Rapids; - construction of docks In communities like Thicket Portage and Warrens Landing; - work on fire halls in Duck Bay and Island Lake; - assistance to fisherman's associations in Wabowden, South Ind ian Lake and Moose Lake; - and projects to ensure portable water supplies in places like Barrows, Sherrldon and Seymourville. In all, these 109 projects provided emplo yment for 757 northerners last year. This year, the length of the program has been extended to allow some of the projects which require warmer weather to be comple ted next spring.

The Northern Commu nity Assets Program Is a $3 million investment of which 2.5 million is committed by the Jobs Fund and $500,000 from the Department of Northern Affairs. Mr. Speaker , this is an im portant program for Northern Manitoba. Our investment here will be realized through the creation of emp loyment in an area where the need is great.

But it will also provide lasting benefits for the use of northern people, whether these benefits are recre ational facilities, community gardens to provide fresh produce or playground equipment for northern children, the dividends of this program will be shared for many many years. MA. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Leader of the Opposition. MA. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On behalf of the opposition, we'd like to thank the Min ister for his statement today regarding the initiative of the Jobs Fund.

We would, of course, have preferred to have heard of some private secto r investment and long-term job creatio n opportunities, but cer tainly we're happy to have the annou ncement of any job creat ion in the North. The North, of cou rse, is sufferi ng su bstantially as a result of depressed mining markets on a world-wide basis. The markets for drilled metals are depressed and many of the mining communities are in jeopardy today, so we are pleased that the government is at least investing in some community facilities as perhaps a stop-gap measure.

We would hope that the employment length of the project is longer than the average of the Jobs Fund of the past year of 13 weeks. We would hope that the projects could be of a nature that would allow for longer term employment. Mr. Speaker, the concerns of the North are indeed ones that have to be addressed today. The highest levels of unem ployment in the province, of course, are in many of our northern and Native communities, and we thank the Min ister for at least giving some indication of recognition of this problem. MA. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills ... INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MA.

SPEAKER: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the galle ry, where we have 47 students of Grade 6 standing from the R. J. Waugh School under the direction of Mr. Grant. The school is in the constituenc y of the Honourable Member for Gladstone. There are 36 students of Grade 5 and 6 standing from the La Ve rendrye School under the direction of Mr. Hanna, and the school is in the constituency of the Honourable Min ister of Community Services. On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS Horse Racing Commission - Annu al Report MA.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Leader of the Opposition. MA. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Honourable Min ister of tourism and small business. Last week, I asked the Min ister if he had yet received the Annual Report of the Manitoba Horse Racing Commission. He said that he would report back to the House shortly on that matter, and my question today is: has he received that report? MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Business Development. 1565

j Tuesday. 5 June, 1984 HON. S. USKIW: I'm sorry, Mr. Speaker, I guess I was preoccupied, would the member rephrase his questi on? MA. G. FILMON: Perhaps, Mr. Speak er, the Minister is putting the finishing touches on the report. I wonder if he could indicate whether or not he has yet received the Annual Report of the Manitoba Horse Racing Commission for its year ending December 31s t, 19 83. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, the question was asked of me last week and I had then taken it as notice.

I want to tell the mem bers opposite that the fiscal year end for the Horse Racing Commission ended on March 31 st, after which there is three months for the tabling of the report. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speak er, in view of the fact that the Minister's Estimates begin this evening and that is the only area of his department that does file an annual report, if I'm not mistaken, I wonder if he could indicate whether or not he would be prepared to table the report or to Indicate the information on Its availability. HON. S. USKIW: Ye s, Mr.

Speak er, that is a valid point and, if it is available, it certainly will be made available to the members opposite as is usually done. I'm not sure whether it is yet available however. Ambulance services - regulations MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry .. MR. L. SHERMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is the Honourable Minister of Health and I would ask him whether, in view of two recent fatal accidents in the Selkirk area involving the ambulance services of the Selkirk district, he is studying changes in regulations and directions applicable to the operation of ambulance systems in the province? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. . HON. L. DESJARDINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Manitoba Health Services Commission has been asked to investigate and I'm awaiting the report of this investigation. MR. L. SHERMAN: A supplement ary, Mr. Speaker.

Can the Minister confirm that arising out of an earlier incident, which involved the death of woman on a Selkirk street, an incident which predated the tragedy last Sun day, which caused two deaths in a boating accident, that new directives and new instructions have been distributed to hospital operators througho ut the province? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, no I can't confirm that. If that is the case it was done by the Manitoba Health Services Commission, but these are some of the questions that I've asked and I expect a full report anytlme now. MR. L SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker , just a minor correc tion in my own wording. I think I said hospital operators in my supplementary question, I meant of course ambulance operators. A further suppl ement ary, Mr. Speaker. Can the Minister advise how many ambulance systems are operating In the Selkirk area? lt was my understanding that the Selkirk General Hospital was operating the service there. Are there more services being operated in Selkirk than the hospital one? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, yes I understand that there's also a private one besides the one operated by the Selkirk Hospital. Liquor Control Commission contract MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Attorney -General. Mr. Speaker, a few weeks ago during the Attorney­ General's Estimates, I raised the question about his Assistant Deputy Min ister being involv ed with a computer firm which had entered into a contract with the Liquor Control Con.mission, and the Attorney­ General indicated he was referring �he matter to the Auditor. Can he advise the House if he has received a report from the Auditor? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R.

PE NNER: No, that question and some subsequent questions relating to the business interest of the particular person, were inde ed referred collectively to the Provincial Auditor and the report has not yet been received . MHRC - director's position MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, a few days ago i also asked the Minister responsible for MHR C a question with respect to the filling of a director's position without having bulletined it internally or externally. Can he now advise the House If such an appointment was made? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Housing.

HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Ye s, thank you, Mr. Speaker. I've spoken to the Acting Deputy Minister as to whether or not there has been a direc tor's position filled in the recent past; I'm advised that there has been no such position. There has been an Acting Director's position filled, and that was filled by person who had pre•Jiously been with the department. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, could the Minister advise then whether the director's position will be filled permanently only after having been advertised externally and internally? HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: Ye s, it would be my intention· that the normal practice for the bulletinlng of a position will be carried out at the appropriate time. 1566

Tuesday, 5 June, 1984 North of Portage Development MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister respon sible for the Jobs Fund. Mr. Speaker, a few days ago I also asked him whether or not the full grant had been paid to the Manitoba Federation of Labour for a fea sibility study north of Portage. I wonder if he has that information now? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Culture. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. No, I'm sorry I do not have the informatio,n as of yet. I will endeavor to have it as quickly as possible for the members.

Brandon University MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Education. The City of Brandon contributes a very substantial amount of money to the operation of the Brandon Universi ty. For that and other reasons they have a vital interest In the future of that university and have consequently asked the government for the right to appoint one person to the Board of Governors. Has the government made a decision with respect to that request yet? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, Mr.

Speaker , I did receive the letter with the request and we are giving it considera tion. There are some additional appointments that are due to be made, I believe, at the end of June, and I don't think that any group that Is interested in participating is precluded from being named as representatives on the Board of Governors. lt will be very difficult for us if we continue to receive letters from a variety of groups and organizations saying we would like a special appointment.

I think that's a very difficult precedent to set, but it doesn't mean that we couldn't accept the points that are being made by them about their interest in the community and particular interest in the un iversity and give consideration to that when we'r e making appointments. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, a supp lementary to the Minister . Are there any other organizations that contribute to Brandon University in the magnitude to which the City of Brandon contributes, .that have an interest in having people appointed to the board? HON. M.

HEMPHILL: I'm not sure that there are, Mr. Speaker. I think the point I made is that it's rea sonable for them to indicate their interest, and we'll give consideration to their interest when we're making appointments. They're not precluded, and we'll take that into consideration. Canamax Resources Ltd.- consulting services MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister respon sible for the Treasury Board.

Can the Minister responsible for the Treasury Board advise the House whether or not David Dombowski, the former head of the Saskatchewan Potash Corpora tion, presently has a contract with the government to provide consulting services with respect to a possible potash development involving Canamax Resources Limited? MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Min ister of Co­ operative Developmen t. HON. J. COWAN: I would have to take that question as notice and report back to the member. Horse Racing Commission - Annual Reports MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is for the Honourable Minister of Business Development and Tourism. Mr. Speak er, I have before me the last two Annual Reports of the Manitoba Horse Racing Commission which indicate that the fiscal year end was Dece mber 31st in those two years, 1981-82. When was the fiscal year end changed and for what reasons? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Busi ness Development. HON. S. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, pursuant to a question that was put to me last we ek, I made the inqu iry and I received the report , I believe the very ·same day, to the effect that the fiscal year had been altered to March 31st in order to be consistent with the gove rnment's fiscal year. That decision, I'm not sure when it was made. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speak er, normally under circumstances where corporations alter their year end, they have to make an interim report so that it does not go beyond 12 months. Has that been given to the Minister? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I'm not aware of an interim report being available.

There may be one, but I'm not aware of one. I'm not sure whether the member is right in sugge sting that there ought to be one with statutory provisions. Motor Vehicle Branch - licence suspension MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pemblna. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Highways and Transportation. Pur suant 1567

TuesdaJ, 5 June, 1884 to amendments passed by the Attorney-General to The Summa ry Convictions Act allowing suspension of those drivers' licences of people who fail to pay parking tickets, coul d the Min ister of Hi g hways and Transportation indicate how many requests have been made of the Registrar of Motor Ve hicle Branch for suspension under that newly-passed provision to The Su mmary Convictions Act? MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Minister of Highways. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Speaker , I don't have the up­ to-date statistics on that, although they are very substantial.

My ind ication is from the Provincial Auditor's Report, as of April, 19 83, there were 41 ,000 parking cases backlogged and 9,000 were with the province, stem ming from the decision of the Registrar of Motor Ve hicles not to process any further convictions under that act, so there are a substantial number of thousands of parking violations that are backed up at this time. That was even before the implementation of the change with regard to The Sum mary Convictions Act and the request that the province would suspend licences under that act· for parking violations.

There are literally thousands that are currently backlogged there, Mr. Speaker. MR. D. ORCHARD: Have any suspensions been made by the Registrar under the provisions of that Sum mary Conviction Act amendment? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: The act stated that the Registrar may suspend, and because of the severity of the offence, the severity of the punishment as if it were I should say with regard to parking violations, and the fact that there was a great deal of additional admin istrative requirements associated with processing of parking tickets that were in place as a result of the city by­ laws, the Registrar decided that he was unable to process any suspensions for parking violations. My understanding is that there have been no suspensions of licences for parking violations since the proclamation of that act in June of'83. · MR. D.

ORCHARD: Could the Minister indicate whether a conviction under the newly passed seat -belt law, and failure to pay that fine, would lead to suspension of that driver's licence? HON. J. PLOHMAN: We ll, certai nly all offences under The Highway Traffic Act are treated in a similar way, whether it be seat belts, or speeding infractions, or whatever other infractions that may be incurred under The Highway Traffic Act. They are treated in the same way and licences could be suspended under The Su mmary Convictions Act for those violations.

Howev er, the matter of parking violations is a separate issue. lt is the enforcement of a city by-law and cert ainly is one that presents a great deal of difficulty in terms of the backlog. That is why up to this point the Registrar is not processing those for violations, but the matter of seat belts and other violations under The Highway Traffic Act are treated in a uni form way. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the Minister indicates that, because of the 1568 severity of the offence, parking tickets are not resulting in licence suspensions, could the Minister indicate to the House how many drivers' licences have been suspended because of failure to pay the fine under the incredible social crime of failing to wear your seat belt? HON. J. PLOHMAN: We ll, first I should correct the honourable member, Mr.

Speak er, that it is not only the matter of the severity of the offence, that being a parking offence, in that whether indeed a licence should be suspended because of a parking offence under certain circumstances. I said that there was a great deal of admin istrative work that the Motor Ve hicle Branch was unable to cope with, that backlog that had been built up as a result of the changes in the act, that had been built up by the City of Winni peg in parking infractions.

In terms of the suspension of drivers' licences for other violations, when the numb er of demerit points warrant when the fines haven't been paid and so on, that is a matter that the honourable member knows full well has been in place for a number of years. Certainly when he was Minis ter of Hi ghways and Transportation it was the case at that time. He made, to my un derst anding, no moves to change that particular system that was in place at that time. If he did, he can clarify that to the House, Mr. Speaker.

Now we have additional laws in place from time to time for safety reasons, for highway safety. lt has been demons trated clearly that seat belts prevent injuries and it also saves substantial money on Medicare as well. The honourable member is carrying on with a crusade in that regard, Mr. Speaker. I find that rather ironic, especially when his own leader voted for the introduction of seat belts, and at this time he's continuing his political crusade against them. Air Ambulance Service - Northern Manitoba MR. SPEA KER: The Hono ur able Memb er for Thompson. MR. S. ASHTON: Mr.

Speaker , my question is for the Minister of Health. Ye sterday the Min ister annou nced that the province would be establishing an air ambulance system to replace the present patient transportation system in Northern Manitoba. In view of the fact that this is something that's been sought for many years by people in Northern Manitoba, I'd like to ask the Minister when he anticipates that that new service will be in operat ion? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Wel l, Mr.

Cha irma n, I al"nounced the approval in principle of the purchase or leasing of the the aircraft, but we haven't asked for any funds to operate the ambula nce this year. lt could be that it will take a while to make the select ion and equip it properly. We requested it a little before April the 1s t, but it should be in place no later than April the 1s t of next year. MR. S. ASHTON: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that concern has been expressed in the past about the

Tue8day, 5 June, 1884 capability of present aircraft for handling, particularly, intensive care patients and premature babies, I was wo ndering if those factors will be taken into consideration as well as the concern about the capability of the existing aircraft to handle patients in general? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, a program is being developed by the department to be submitted to Cabinet for approval and of course it will address the problems that we're faced with now and as well as the two existing programs, but that certainly would be the priority at this time. MR. S.

ASHTON: A final supplementary , Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask whether the Minister could indicate whether additional areas of the province will be covered under this new air ambulance system? HON. L DESJ ARDINS: As I stated , Mr. Speak er, the details have not been approved .

I would imagine that, of course, it will be a full-time air ambulance equi pped for an air ambulance and the dispatching will be done by the Commission, so no doubt that it will do whatever it can, but as far as the financing of the program, that has not been decided as yet, but it certainly will not be restricted just to the north. lt is for all Manitoba as needed. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, just one question to the Minister of Health based on the questions asked by the Member for Thompson. · Am I correct in suggesting to the Minister of Health that he did not say that the new air ambulance would replace the Northern Patient Transportation Program? lt will be an adjunct to the overall health system, but there's no intention to have it replace the NPTP, is there? HON. L DESJARDINS: No, my honourable friend is correct on that.

There's certainly not necessarily a replac ement. lt will replace the - I took it as he meant rep lacing the plane that has been used in the past, but it is not an air ambulance service. lt is a ambulance transportation and I would imagine that they'd still use other methods of travelling also as needed. Fiscal year end change MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Acting Premier.

In view of the fact that the Minister of Small Business and Tourism has indicated that the Manitoba Horse Racing Commission has changed their fiscal year end from December 31st to March 31st as a result of a recom mendation by the Auditor to conform with the fiscal year end of the province, could the Acting Premier indicate whether or not this is a general reco mmendation for all boards, commis sions and government agencies - Cr own agencies? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. . HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I would have to take all the details of that question under advisement.

I do know there was a practical problem with the Horse Racing Commission in that their year end, coming in December with the Session generally opening in the early months of the following year always provided a short time frame within which to get books audited and a report completed. So it was looked into and, as the Minister has said, he is going to look further into the final disposition of that and I think he can take care of that. I will take under advisement the quest ion about the other Crown corporations. Mineral Resources Ltd.- Annual Report MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G.

FILMON: Mr. Speaker, would the Acting Premier also take under advisement then the indication in the Annual Report of Man itoba Mineral Resources Ltd., this year's Annual Report, would she determine why they have changed their year end from March 31st to December 31st? HON. M. SMITH: Well, I think my previous answer included that concern, Mr. Speaker. Horse Racing Commission - Annual Report MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Business Dev elopment. HON. S. USKIW: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition suggested a moment ago that I had suggested there was some recommendation on the part of the Provincial Auditor with respect . to the change. I don't recall making that statement, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, if the member wants me to repeat it, I said I would assume it was to be consistent with the annual year end of the Province of Manitoba. (Interjection) - That's right. Air Ambulance Program MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. H. HARAPIAK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to ask a question of the Minister of Health.

In addition to the questions that have been asked by my colleague, the MLA for Thompson, I'd like to add that there is a program that many of the people in Northern Manitoba have been waiting very patiently for. I'd like to ask the Minister of Health where the air ambulance will be located , where will it be based? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able M.inister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: ·Mr. Speaker, that's the 54- dollar question. MR. H. HARAPIAK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to ask the Minister of Health if there will be special staff assigned to this air ambulance? 1569

n...ctar. 5 June, 1984 HON. l:. DESJAADINS: I don't know if this could go on my trnit! in the Estima tes, but, Mr. Speaker, the staff, if we're talking about the pilots and so on, the intention is to work with the gover nment service and the maintenance and so on, and the hanga r, although the dis patching will be done by the ambulance. - (Int erjection) - I imagine my honourable friend is referring to trained - I can't hear myself think, I'll tell you in the hall I think. If my honourable friend is talking about the trained attendants, that certainly is the intention. Herbicides and pesticides, use of MA.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MA. A. DAIEDGEA: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Min ister responsible for the Environment. · The Mini ster has been sending out letters to ag rep offices and weed dis tricts regarding proposed changes in the use of herbicides and pesticides, with the intention that they respond by the 16th of June. Can the Min ister ind icate whether he is proposing legislative changes in this Session regarding the use of these chemicals? MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter for the Environment. HON. G. LECUYEA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The changes the member refers to would have to come about eventually through regulations which are not intended at this time. That is why the materials he refers to are out for consultation and I presume that from the initial drafting of the regulations, there will be further consultation, and perhaps this will have to carry on for a number of consultations before we are ready to proceed with that. So I cannot say whether we're looking at six months, a year, or more down the road. MA. A. DAIEDGEA: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I hope there's going to be a lot of consultation, in view of some of the proposals that are being forwarded. Cankerworm infestation MA. A. DAIEDGEA: A further question to the same Min ister. Can the Min ister indicate whether there's going to be any financial assistance to municipalities, rural municipalities, that are faced with the spraying of pesticides for cankerworms? HON. G. LECUYEA: Other than the program which was announced a while back, assistance in regard to the larviciding and mapping for the mosquito programs, there is no such a program for spraying for cankerworms.

That is a municipal responsibili ty. In fact, Mr. Speaker, as I've indi cated before, insects, as a nuisance, are a municipal respo nsi bility. When it becomes a health problem, as it has occurred in the past, then it has been dealt with as a provincial responsibility. ARM Industries, Brandon MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MA. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Min ister of Community Services. Can the Min ister advise whether or not there is a functioning board of directors in place for ARM Industries In Brandon? MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Community Services.

HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, the board that was functioning until the end of December last year went out at their own request and the government took over direct operation of Arm Industries. There was a concern about deficit, about the fiscal responsibility of the board members, and they were very concerned that they might bear some personal liability for that deficit. Mr. Speaker, the government assumed responsibility, is operating the centre, but has Intention down the road to have it go back to a p rivate board, but as yet that possibility has not matured.

But the intention is to examine carefully the needs In the community and the type of program required and then to proceed with an orderly devolution again to a private board. Education, Dept. of - planning and research reports MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MA. C. MANNESS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I address my question to the Min ister of Education. During the Estimate process, Mr. Sp eaker, the Min ister of Education provided to me seven planning and research reports that were undertaken by her department. I believe there are some 13 in number that were not provided.

I'm wondering if the Min ister can ind icate whether it's her intention to provide them for me, or at least a listing as to what they are and · why she cannot provide them. MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, Mr. Speaker, it's my intention to make available to the member opposite all of the reports that are public reports. I'll look at the list of what he's received and those he believes he has not received and attempt to provide them as quickly as possible. Camperville - education MA. C. MANNESS: Mr.

Speaker, I have Report 6, in 1983, and was titled, "Post-secondary assessibility for Frontier students." I'm wondering if the Min ister could tell me whether the new Education Mini ster at Camperville, one Ron Richard, has a copy of this report. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Speaker, sometimes I'm sorry to have to say this, but there is only one Min ister of Education in Manitoba. MR. C. MANNESS: Well, Mr. Speaker, I know you won't allow me to quote very extensively from this report, but if you'd allow me to make a one sentence, "Page 1(

c) of this report lays out initia tives developed for the 1570

�ay. 5 June, 111M Frontier School Division," and amongst a listing of seven or eight, I'd read one where it is proposed that the delivery of training program to ensure that all high schools in Frontier School Division have a qualified career counsellor. Now, I would ask the Minister whether or not this is the reason for the wish of the Campervi lle commu nity to leave the School Division of Duck Mountain and to become part of the Frontier School Division? MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The question is speculative. Would the honourable member wish to rephrase his question? MR. C. MANNESS: We ll, Mr.

Speaker, I would ask if the Minister is aware of the reason why the Camperville Gover nment wishes to leave the Duck Mountain School Division and become part of the Frontier School Division? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Awareness by the Minister is not a proper topic for a question. Would the honou rable member wish to rephrase his question to seek information rather than opinion? MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Speaker , why does the Camperville people, that communi ty, want to leave the Duck Mountain School Division? MR. SPEAKER: Oral Questions. The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr.

Speak er, I can't take seriously the Minister's comment that there is only one Education Minister in this province when she refuses to answer my question. But, Mr. Speaker, what advice will the Minister offer other schools within the province who feel the quality of education within their schools are lacking? What advice will she give to them when they come to her with concerns regarding their own school divisions 'and requests to set up their own school authority? Will she also indicate that they can become part of the Frontier School Division? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Speaker, in terms of advice that is given, I think I answered in the House last week when I was asked a specific question about what advice we had given the members of this community who were concerned about the quality of education, and that was that they had a number of options before them. One was to work out an agreement and an understanding with the school division, and in some of their discussions they indicated they were willing to explore that.

Another was, that if they wanted to do anything that related to boundary change, there was only one procedure that allowed that consideration and that was the board of reference. I outlined in great detail the procedures that they would have to undertake should they decide to go the board of reference route. When we had our mee tings with them, they had not decided in their own mind whether they wanted to join Frontier or what the route was that they wanted to take in terms of looking at this issue. They must sort that out first, then there is a proced ure for them to follow.

In terms of the very broad question, the very general que stion, and what is my advice to people in the comm uni ty who are concerned about quality of . education, I have met with a number of communit ies and people who are concerned about qua lity of education and I can tell you, Mr. Speaker, when the question of quality of education comes up, the province and this Minister does not abrogate their respon sibility, which is to look at and oversee the quality of education.

Where there have been problems and concerns related to quality, we have taken them seriously and we have met with the members of the community and the responsible school division and worked out accommodation to imp rove the qua lity to the satisfaction of the board and the parents. Licence suspension MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to pose a simple question to the Minister of Highways and Transportation. I offer as a

preamble to my question, which I believe is within the rules, Sir, that du ring my term as Mini ster of Highways and Transportation, no Manitoban had his driver's licence suspended for failure to wear a seat belt. In view of that fact, could the Minister of Highways and Transportation provide the House with the number of Manitoba drivers who licences are being suspended for failure to pay a fine resu lting from not wearing a seat belt? MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Minister of Highways. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Speaker, it's obvious that the Member for Pembina, when he was Minister for Highways, was too callous to be concerned about people not wearing seat belts and he didn't have the political will to bring in a law that would save lives on the highways and prevent injuries. Mr. Speaker, he is quite aware of the statistics that demons trate that the law that is in place and has been in many other jurisd ictions throughout Canada and the rest of the world, saves lives and prevents injuries. He continues to harp for political reasons on that particular law.

I will be able to provide the member with the information on convictions for every different offence that takes place under The Highway Traffic Act. I will not single out any particular one, Mr. Speaker. MR. D. ORCHARD: The only information I require is the suspensions under failure to pay a fine from failure to wear a seat belt. Homestead quarter legislation - Saskatchewan MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, I h ave a question for the Min ister of Agriculture.

Our neighbouring jurisdiction, the Province of Saskatchewan, have introduced legislation, the broad intent of which is to save the homestead quarter in the event of a farm bankruptcy. Has the Minister made himself aware of the contents of that legislation that's being proposed in Saskatche wan? 1571

TuesdaJ, 5 June, 1814 MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Awareness by a Min ister is not a proper topic for a question. The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: I'm very sorry, Mr. Speaker. I shall rephrase the question. Mr. Speaker, would the Min ister of Agriculture, having knowledge of legislation that's being proposed in Saskatchewan, ind icate whether he has seen that legislation and perused its contents? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, while I have not specifically seen the copy of the legislation being proposed, the honourable member should be aware that in our own province there is similar legislation in which the home quarter can be saved, provided, of course, that it is not signed away as collateral. Mr. Speaker, beyond that, the Province of Manitoba has made representations to the Federal Government dealing with the proposed changes of The Bankruptcy Act. Mr.

Speaker, the Province of Manitoba has made repres entations to the Federal Government under whose jurisdiction bankruptcy exists and is, and one of the provisions to allow a creditor, such as a farmer or a small businessman to apply to the courts, having made an offer, so that foreclosure cannot occur, and if it is not accepted by the lendor, then it can be arbitrated to the courts.

We have made such a proposal to them; we understand that proposal has been accepted and we're hopeful that Parliament passes that act very shortly, which would prevent some of the stories that one hears of walking in and foreclosing on farmers, so that there is at least an orderly arbitration of the debts, and that's what we're pushing for, Sir. MR. D.

ORCHARD: As a supplementary to the Min ister, In view of the discussions he's having with Ottawa and the possibility that those may not result In any legislation which would be effective for some several months, maybe even for a year, would the Min ister consider the advisability of studying the Saskatchewan proposal, and if it was worthy of application In Manitoba, possibly bring that similar proposal into the Legislature this Session? MR. SPEAKER: The question is hypotheticaL HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, we would certainly want to ... MR. SPEAKER: The question is hypothetical.

Order please, the time for Oral Questions having expired, Orders of the Day. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could have leave of the House to make a non-political statement? MR. SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have leave? (Agreed) NON-POLITICAL STATEMENT MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, the Silver Heights Collegiate Band won the right to represent Manitoba in the Canadian Jazz Band competitions in Ontario this year.

The students all worked very hard, raised money to go to Toronto to compete in this competition and I'm pleased to report that they actually tied for first, but because of a count-back in the way the judging was done, they ended up coming second. I believe they deserve congratulations for the hard work that they did and the honours that they brought to Manitoba, Mr. Speaker. I would also like to say that they're in the combo classification of the competition. There was a combo called "Ma rk 5" that won the national honours in the competition, Mr.

Speaker, and they were made up from three students from Silver Heights Colleg iate and two students from the constituency of St. Norbert. The y, too, deserve congratulations from this House. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. ORDERS OF THE DAY BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, before I move the motion with respect to Committee of Supply, I would ask the Indulgence of the House to address the Business of the House for the next several days. Mr.

Speaker, the Estimates order that is remaining has been discussed with the Opposition House Leader and it's proposed that in committee today, we will start the Estimates of the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs and then move on after that to Business Development, Tourism and followed by Community Services. Mr.

Speaker , with regard to the Esti mates' consideration in the House where we are currently considering the Estimates of the Min ister of Health, I propose that that will be followed by the Department of Co-Operative Development, followed by Industry, Trade and Technol ogy, followed by the thr ee departments under the jurisdiction of the Min ister of Finance, Civil Service, Finance, Crown Investments, followed, Sir, by Energy and Mi nes and then Legislation and Executive Council. Sir, there are several other, what are sometimes referred to as incidentals in the Estimates book.

The Enabling Votes, the Jobs Fund, Emergency Measures and other matters which are the responsibility of several Mi nisters, and to ensure that all of the appropriate Min isters are in the House when those items are discussed, it's suggested, Sir, that those items be held to the end when we're meeting only in one committee so that all the appropriate Min isters can address those. So, Mr. Speaker, that would be the Estimates list subject to change depending on the workload of the two committees in the House and outside. 1572

Tuesday, 5 June, 1114 Sir, with respect to the business for the balance of the week, I would propose that we would be in Estimates throughout today and on Thursday, but I would call, Sir, the bills that are on the Order Paper for second reading both tomorrow and, if there are more, again on Friday. I don't know how long that will take tomorrow, Sir, there may be some Estimates time available as well, but I would propose tomorrow and Friday as well to follow the practice we've been following by leave which is to have Private Members' Hour tomorrow and then adjourn at 12:30 on Frida y.

So, Sir, that would be the outline for the balance of the week and for the Estimates order. I would like to move today into Estimates and remain there for the balance of the day, Sir, that would require leave not to sit again during Private Members' Hour today. Perhaps Sir, we could determine if I have leave to make that motion. MR. SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Minister have leave to dispense with Private Members' Hour today? (Agreed) The Honourable Min ister. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would therefore move, seconded by the Minis ter of Health that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for River East in the Chair for the Department of Health and the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - CONSUMER AND CORPORATE . AFFAIRS MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: Committee, please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply shall be dealing with the Estimates of the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. The committee shall begin its deliberation by requesting the Honourable Min ister to give his opening statements. HON. R. PENNER: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. My remarks will be brief. With the transfer over time of res ponsibility for Housing, rent control from this department to other departments, its mandate is smaller, more sharply focused, and is reflected in the fact that we're dealing with one page of Estimates - that's about it, a couple of pages of Estimates.

Really, most of the issues are fai rly clearly delineated. I'd like to draw attention to perhaps the most conspicuous change. There's a small increase globally but it's made up of one very substantial increase and some smaller decreases. The substantial in crease is of some significance and that's in the Corporations Branch where there will be in the fiscal year proposed an expenditure of $400,000 for the much needed and I think all too long delayed computerization of the Corporate Branch.

The Corporate Branch, if I may just quickly refer to some statistics, first of all, has had a very substantial increase in workload, some 17 percent year over year, from some 79,000 transactions to 91 ,000 transactions.

But whether one is dealing with 79,000 transactions or 91 ,000 transactions, it's clear that one is dealing with an immense workload, particularly If one recognizes that hitherto substantially that has been done manually, and also if one recognizes that it tends very much the way matters are presently arranged to peak at a particular time of the year, or particular times of the year, most obviously when the renewals, the filing of annual returns, take place. Although I've identified as a workload 91 ,000 transactions in the Corporate Branch, there are about 38,000 active files.

This speaks to another problem which has led to the, I think, urgent need to computerize, and that is that these files contain within them the original documents. When someone comes up to the counter to search they get a file and we've been able to depend substantially on the hone sty, or the lack of absent­ mindedness of people who come up to do a search, that they don't walk away with the file. If they walk away with the file, then we've got a serious gap In the records. Indeed, there has been over time, from time to time, some loss.

But, of course, what would be horrendous to comtemplate is any destruction of files by accident, by fire or wha tever, so that th e computeri zation which will take place, I think substantially over a year, will require and provision is made for some term staff to carry the manual load while regular staff who has knowledge of the operations are able to assist in the transfer of the information to program, to software and into the machinery. If anyone in this committee asks me about that machiner y, I'm dead in th e water, but it's a computerization.

What will happen not only is the safeguarding of the files but the turnaround time, which is very important quite often to those engaged In dealing with corporations, requiring them to ascertain certain information particularly if, as is sometimes the case, a relatively urgent transaction is taking place. Mr. Chairperson, I draw your attention to the unruly behaviour of members on that side of the table who are here to support me. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, that side of the table is the government's side, I want the record to show that. The opposition is listening very attentively.

HON. R. PENNER: Now, that I'm no longer distracted, the turnaround time will be reduced we expect from 72 hours to 24 hours, which is tremendously important. We really think that over time, that is, within the space of two years, will see a doubling of productivity. Since we are not anticipating a doubling of workload between this year and next year, clearly that means that the computer program essentially is going to pay for itself in terms of a reduction of the staff required. I should point out that we have here a high productivity level; 1, 600 per staff, in terms of transactions related to staff, 1573

1\laday, 5 June, 1884

whereas the average el�ewhere as far as I've been able to ascertain is 1,000. I just want to point out to you, Mr. Chairp erson, for the record that the ranks of the opposition have just increased manifold and this worries me in case of a snap vote. That really is the most significant change. I should like to point out that I do have, as does the head of the Securities Branch who is with us - and staff will be introduced shortly - a concern about the sharply increased workload of the Securities Branch.

This speaks much - I think it's one of the many symptoms of the activity in the Manitoba economy, but certainly the number of applications for filings, the number of filings, has increased significantly and we're dealing essentially with the same staff. There's no doubt in my mind that although we were not able to accommodate requests for staff Increases in that branch we will be looking at its workload very carefully during the course of the year when we consider where we're going next year.

Of particular import, as you may have noted, we have introduced sume amendments to The Securities Act in order to keep abreast the best we can with some developments in parallel legislation -Alberta and Ontario -but we really feel that although there's an unproclaimed securities act sitting on the books, it couldn't be proclaimed in its present form, that very significant work has to be done, and that the legal staff of the Securities Commission is very good, I think probably the best in the country, but not able to both carry on the increased workload, the increased filings and devote the time that would be necessary to work on something as intricate as securities legislation.

Fortunately, we may be in the position where we don't have to reinvent that particular wheel. Some of the work being done in Ontario certainly will be of use to us when we have a chance to analyze it. Those are the principal developments that should be noted. Perhaps one other comment and then we can have at it.

In terms of legislation generally, aside from the proposed amendments to The Securities Act, which in fact has already been given first reading and will be introduced shortly, when the amendments to The Liquor Control Act are dealt with it, it will be noted that we have dealt with what is, I think, commonly accepted as an anomaly; namely, that we've had the practice for many years that the Liquor Control Commission and the representatives from the breweries sit down periodically -not less than once and sometimes two or three times during the course of the year -to negotiate the wholesale price to be paid by the Liquor Control Commission as purchaser of the beer before it's sold.

They do so with a great deal of close hard bargaining and the use of experts, and then The Liquor Control Act has required that that then be submitted to the PUB. The PUB then substantially listens to the same people, who were the consultants for the Commission and the industry, and being in receipt of the same information has inevitably arrived at the same decision.

That's a cost to the taxpayer which is unnecessary in the event there have been no public representations of any signifi cance to the PUB about the beer pricing calculations, and so with that change The Liquor Control Act, the PUB will not, once that is passed and proclaimed, be dealing with beer pricing. lt will, as the name implies -the Public Utility Board -be dealing substantially with the utilities -Manitoba Telephone and some of the private gas utilities and with certain other municipal matters and will be doing its work in that way.

I should say with respect to the Public Utilities Board th.:u we were very fortunate, in my view, in being able to obtain the services of Professor Murray Donnelly to be the new chair of the PUB, but looking at the PUB and its workload, it was my view, in view of the PUB, that we did not require a full-time Chair of the PUB. We have staff, of course, and we use consultants - outside consultants -who advised the PUB with respect to matters before it.

We have legal consultants, we have accountants, sometimes engineering consultants who are called in from the outside world to give advice to the PUB and we have a staff, of course, a permanent secretary and staff. But we didn't feel tha t we needed a full-time Chai rperson and that was agreed, that was part of the agreement with Professor Donnelly when he assumed the Chair, but in order to give that the legal mandate it requires an amendment will be brought forward in this Session of the Legi!:lature because the present statute requires that the Chairperson of the PUB be full-time.

That will be found in the Statute Law Amendments. Just two other comments about legislation. Some amend ments were brought into the Consumer Protection Act last year, some proclaimed, some not proclaimed. One not proclaimed had to do with the vexing problem of deposits, and it became particularly a problem when there was a significant number of bankruptcies, business failures at the retail level and some consumers were losing those deposits and, of course, this was a cause of concern and the former Min ister brought in some proposals for change.

Upon representations being made to Law Amendments last Session the Minis ter, I think very sensibly, said those changes would not be proclaimed and we would hear representations during the course of the relatively few months when I have been responsible for this portfolio. I have met with respresentatlves from the industry and am satisfied that, indeed, the particular legislative proposals that are In abeyance create potentially more problems than they might solve. I say that because subsequent developments in the common law, well not in the common law but in the

interpretations of statute law, indicate something that I had thought to be the case and may likely be the case, namely, that such deposits may well be treated by the courts as trust money. If that is so, depending on

Interpretation that one may make of bankruptcy legislation, consumers having placed such money on deposit may have first claim to that money as against any other creditor. That would resolve the problem so we're just maintaining a W3tch and wait stance with respect to that particular problem. I do believe, however, that we will want to look at, certainly not for this Session, possibly for the next Session, the whole question of trade practices. There is some model legislation in some other provinces which we might want to look at to make sure that the consumer gets a fair shake. One other, and this is my final comment, issue with respect to legislation which did arise because of 1574

Tueaday, 5 June, 1984 problems experienced by Manitoba travellers, people travelling from Manitoba on winter vacations in the main, some of whom suffered a loss because of the bankruptcy or business failure of tour wholesalers in Ontario and in B.C. We were very concerned about how we could protect Man itobans against those kind of failures, and yet not imp ose such an admin istrative cost on government, or such a cost on the industry that the remedy would be disproportionate to the resolution of the problem.

I'm very happy to say that the Association of Canadian Travel Agents, which recently met in convention here, is developing a plan which is in its formative stages, but I would hope gets a boost off the launching pad when the Min isters responsible for Consumer Affairs meet in September or October of this year, a plan which would be national in scope, and that's the beauty of it, and which could give substantial protection, indeed, virtually total protection, to travellers for as little as 50 cents a time, 50 cents additional cost when you buy your ticket to -where do you go Don, when you travel? -Beausej our; Mi ami, Ma nitoba; Mi ami, Florida; Barbados; wherever, for as little as 50 cents per person, a family of four, $2.00 and you're into a very comprehensive insurance plan regulated by the industry with the government involvement.

The details of that are very much in the works, but this is the kind of thing we hoped for, where it's something that the industry in Manitoba, the travellers in Manitoba, can both afford and obtain protection. Those are my opening remarks. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Min ister. Consistent with customary usage in this Committee of Supply, the Chairperson now calls upon the leading opposition critic, if the critic so decides to make his reply. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Min ister has ind icated the function over the last two years of Consumer and Corporate Affairs has been trimmed.and transferred to other departments and that results in a leaner and presumably meaner Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. I would, in perusal of the line -by-line Est im ates, offer a couple of observations to the Min ister, and no doubt we can discuss them as we go line by line.

The observations are that with the Consumer Affairs division, where you have a reduction in the amount of funding proposed for Consumer Affairs, that this does not in any way inhibit the normal role of the department in providing consumer protection advice and action; the same general observation would be made under Corporate Affairs. When the Mini ster ind icates that the major inc reases of some $400,000 to stream line corporate searches and other requests for information through the Corporation's Branch, that would, factoring that out, leave the Corporate Affairs Department in a status quo position.

Given the new-found enthusiasm for and interest in the private sector and their activities in the province, I would once again offer the hope to the Mi nister that the department is able to handle its responsibilities to the corporate community without any financial hindr ance. In the case of the two commissions, the Manitoba Securities Commission plus the Public Utilities Board, that those two commiSSions or boards are able to function with the dispatch.

The Public Utilities Board in particular may well have themselves some additional adjudication, if you will, to undertake over the next several months if the cable companies and the Mani toba Telephone System are unable to come to an agreement over the extension of the cable contract in the City of Winnip eg.

I was interested in hearing the Min ister indic ate that often outside advice is seconded to provide expert opinion and I think, not in any way reflecting on the talents of the Public Utilities Board, but in a complex area like the cable television negotiations, which have been going on for I believe three-and-a-half to four years in an attempt to resolve them. They're very complex.

They, from time to time, seem to approach them from two unreconcilable positions and certainly I can foresee if such adjudication is required by the Public Utilities Board the genuine need for some uninvolved, impartial, third-party advice and overview to come to a settlement should the Public Utilities Board - I realize we're talking of an "if" here because it may not come in and it came to the attention of the Public Utilities Board - but the necessity for very objective and impa rtial third party to the Public Utilities Board is for the benefit of Manitoba consumers in the City of Winnip eg and outside because the implications are certainly there for outside the city as well, and as well for the Mani toba Telephone System, the Crown corporation.

The Manitoba Securities Commission, I would just offer the one observation and I don't offer this in a critical manner, but I've recently had discussion with individuals who attempted to get a prospectus through. Now, I have to admit these people were very aggressive private entrepreneurs and they were not used to - maybe I could say - the cautious operation of government where things take a little more time.

But what stirred my comments, or spurred my comments, was that the Min ister ind icated there was a request from the Securities Commission to provide additional staff complement because of an increa!?ing workload, if I recall correctly. This particular entrepreneur was in his estimation, and of course you can understand why he would take that position, considered the length of time required to get his application through and his prospectus out, and meeting the approval of the Securities Commission took a substantial amount of time.

In the business world generally time Is money, and successful business enterprises are always anxious to receive with the greatest dispa tch approval for new underta kings or new corporate ventures or new securities offerings. So I would close by offering to the Min ister the hope that the Securities Commission and the other boards under the Min ister's jurisdiction don't find themselves unduly restricted in being able to carry out their work on behalf of the economy of Manitoba, and that their work is very much necessary to get our economy moving and thriving. So, Mr.

Chairman, I believe we can go line by line, if you wish. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Chair thanks the opposition critic. At this point in time, the Chair cordially invites the 1575

Tuescbly, 5 June, 1984 departmental staff of the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs to kindly take their respective places. We shall defer consideration of Item No. 1. (

a) relating to Min ister's Salary, and it shall be the last item for consideration by this Committee of Supply. The committee shall commence its proceed ings with the consideration of Item No. 1. (b)

(1) Executive Support: Salaries of Administration and Finance; and Item 1. (b)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: To the Min ister, in perusing last year's Estimates, the General Admini stration line, as it was called last year, now called Admin istration and Finance, had an estimated budget of some $730,000.00. In the Reconciliation Statement it's noted that has increased to $823,000 for the same fiscal year ending March 31, 1984. Could the Min ister indicate why the variance and, if it was from staff, where the increase mid-year presumably was in the additional costs from $730,000 to 823,000? HON. R.

PENNER: I think in most instances - I'll try to get this specifically - where you have a variance between the year ending March 31 ,'84, now printed in the original print, it was due to salary Increases during the course of the year. MR. D. ORCHARD: I don't argue with that analysis, but that would put this department something at odds with other departments who I don't believe experienced that same kind of change. HON. R. PENNER: May I have some clarification?

I believ e that the member, if I'm not mistaken, is asking about the variance between the amount printed in this year's Estimate Book for the year ending March 31, 1984, and some earlier figure which had been published with respect to the same fiscal year. You're not yet asking about the variance between the actual amount spent in 1984 and the proposed amount to be spent in 1985?

Okay. · I'm advised by staff that one of the principal elements there was the transfer into this area of Research and Planning which was previously shown under the heading "Consumer Affairs." And that of course would account for approximately $1 33,000, which would almost bring you down precisely to what your starting base is. MR. D. ORCHARD: What I'm specifically getting at, Mr.

Chairman, for the Minister's information, is in some of the Reconciliation Statements between print and fiscal year 1984, that we considered last year at this time and the reconciled figures, the diffqrence was made up by mid-year staff hlrings. I just want to assure if there wasn't new staff complement brought on mid­ year that appear as if they were part and parcel of last year's approved Estimate figure. HON. R. PENNER: it was not staff hiring. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Then dealing with the question that the Minister raised, or the information he thought I might have been seeking, that in all cases, line-by-line for the whole of ad minis tration in Consumer and Corporate Affairs, any change that we see in the Salaries line, if it's moderate, generally reflects the difference of the 27th pay period and not staff changes, other than in quick perusal of Communic ations and Research and Planning indicate a reduction in three in terms of staff, those are the only reductions? HON. R. PENNER: Ye s, that is right. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, I don't know whether this is the appropriate appropriation. I think it Is. There has been some publicity lately with respect to the operation of cemeteries. Does this come under this section? HON. R. PENNER: it comes under PUB, when we get to PUB. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (b)(1)-p ass; 1. (b)(2)- pass. 1. (c)( 1) Research and Planning; 1. (c)

(2) Other Expenditu res - the Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, to un derstand the Min ister correctly, that function appeared over in Consumer Affairs in

Section 2 last year? HON. R. PENNER: That is right. MR. D. ORCHARD: And this involves the same staff function, etc. HON. R. PENNER: The same functions. MR. D. ORCHARD: Pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (c)(1) -p ass. The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry, there is one quest ion. The two staff reductions represent $30,000, was that clerical staff that is no longer with the Research and Planning, and you've got all chiefs and no Indians, if that's the proper way to say it? Oh, that's racist, I'm sorry. HON. R.

PENNER: One was clerical, the other was semi-quasi-clerical, in the sense it was accumula tive statistics. But the position has been vacant for close to a year, and our sense was that while one can always use an extra pair of hands, it was not essential to the functioning of that sect ion, and we would try and make do without for this fiscal year. MR. D. ORCHARD: I guess an obvious question would be, who does the clerical work for your Research and Planning staff then? Do you farm it out to other sections? HON. R.

PENNER: The clerical work is being handled as between the Director of Administration's office and the Deputy's office. MR. CHAIRMAN: The member for St. Norbert MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, are you in (c), Research and Planning? 1576

lUeaday. 5 June, 1884 HON. R. PENNER: Yes. MR. G. MERCIER: The

summary indi cates that this area researches topical issues? Could the Mini ster indic ate which topical issues are currently being researched? HON. R. PENNER: Yes. The bulk of the work during the last fiscal year in that branch was spent on looking into the very complex, very vexing, question of gasoline pricing, and there's still some carryover from that. But in addition to that in terms of their workload we're trying to complete some work on the possibility of updating The Personal Investigation Act and the question to which I adverted before. The Member for St.

Norbert came in looking at the possibility of The Trade Practices Act looking at parallel legislation in other provinces. So that that's where the Research and Planning staff are spending their time. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, it's probably an old question but in looking at gasoline prices has the Mini ster's department satisfied themselves, or can the Mini ster indicate whether there is any justification, for charging a higher price for un leaded gasoline over leaded gas? HON. R.

PENNER: That was not within the mandate of the particular current inquiry and it's certainly one that I couldn't answer on the basis of my .own information. The particular inquiry to which I adverted dealt really with differentials between northern prices and City of Winnipeg prices. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, could the Minis ter ask his department to research that question to determine whether there is any justification for charging higher prices for unleaded gasoline? HON. R. PENNER: We have made some inquiries. We haven 't, .of course, been able to look at their cost structure.

I notice that the Federal Government has been trying to look at the cost structure in the gasoline area for, what is it, 14 years and still labouring mightily. But generally what we have been advised is that when you take the lead out, I don't use that in its colloquial sense, you can carry this metaphor as far as you want, you have to add some things to get the octane rating up. That some people around this table may find to be true in life generally. But that appears to be the explanation given with respect to the price structure. ' MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, I notice that under this area the staff monitor retail/wholesale prices. Could the Min ister indicate whether, in this monitoring of prices, whether the department has found that, or learned whether or not, in the conversion particularly in food prices whether the conversion to metric has resulted in an increase in prices? HON. R. PENNER: We did some sp0t check ing, particularly when conversions began to be a feature of the marketplace, and to the extent that we could ascertain there seemed to be fair pricing taking place.

I say to the extent that we could ascertain because as the member will no doubt appreciate pncmg is an inordinately complex question with all kinds of variables particularly when you're dealing in food stuffs and have to track all the way back to the farm gate. We simply · don't have the capacity to do that kind of monitoring.

What we might want to do, and I indicated this earlier, is at the retail level where we have jurisdiction to look into a fair trade practices kind of legislation, that will take not only time to develop, but as I think the members will appreciate, once you put that kind of legislation into practice one is of necessity looking not only at the regulatory law, but regulatory admini stration, which is costly. We have to make sure that we're in a position to allocate those kinds of resources and that they will be spent wisely and productively. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, last year when the government did away with the Cattle Producers Association levy there were representatives of the Consumers Association who appeared before the commi ttee recommending against the government action because of the service that the association had provided to consumers. Is the Min ister's department aware of that concern, and are they in any way following it up or making any recommendations to make sure that such similar information is provided to consumers? HON. R.

PENNER: I've had no representations which ind icate that the re's demands from a particular consumer group to the Consumer Bureau transferred because of the change which the member has noted that haven't been met by the Consumer Bureau. I think, in fact, the Consumer Bureau has done a remarkably good job considering that it must, in the main, work in a mediative sort of way and has done a remarkably good job within its mandate. MR. G. MERCIER: Well, Mr. Chairman, I know the Member for Lakeside has a question about this, but I think the Min ister's referring to the Consumer's Bureau within his department? HON. R.

PENNER: That's the only one I can answer for. MR. G. MERCIER: I'm referring to the Consumer's Association, the citizen group outside of government. Is there a liaison between perhaps this

section of the people in this area of the department, or other people in the department, so that the department is aware of the concerns that were expressed? HON. R. PENNER: Really, I don't mind answering at this juncture. We're really jumping from the first appropriation over to the second apppropriation dealing with Consumer Affairs. But If the members are satisfied that I should hop, skip, and jump, who am I to protest? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman, I don't wish to deal with matters out of order.

However, in departments of this size there has been a latitude allowed for members coming in from different committees to put forward their questions. I suppose the Chairman, who runs a 1sn

1\leedaJ, 5 June, 1884 pretty tight ship I un derstand, can always rule us out of order, but I would like to pursue some further questions with respect to the consumer aspect responsi bilities of the department. If that's out of order at this time, I'll await the appropriate time. HON. A. PENNEA: I'm in the hands of the Chairperson and the committee, but I think it would be really preferable for all concerned if we could perhaps finish somet hing we're in the middle of, namely , Appropriation 1, Adminis tration and Finance.

We're then Immedia tely going to come to No. 2, Consumer Affairs, and we could deal with a whole numb er of consumer affairs questions. MA. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembina. MA. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I didn't realize - and maybe this isn't the appropriate pl ace - but you responded to some questions about the fuel pricing enquir y that was made by the Research and Planning HON. A. PENNEA: In reference to Research and Planning, yes. MA. D.

ORCHARD: There's another area in fuel pricing and it was raised approximately three .wee ks ago, four weeks ago, during question period. it involves only die sel fuel. lt doesn't involve gasoline. The point that was being raised to the Minister of Finance that day - and it might well fit into one of those Research and Planning areas that the department might want to undertake to make recommendations, not only to you, as Min ister of Consumer Affairs, but to the Min ister of Finance.

The situation can exist where diesel fuel, which is clear diesel fuel and has as part and parcel of the price the 7.8 cents provincial tax, can be retai ling for less money than what purple fuel deliv ered to the farm customer, is selling for. That certainly was the case in the last, say, three weeks ago or so.

Now the proposition that we put to the Minister of Finance that day - and I give him credit for skilfully avoiding it for the time being but I would bring it to your attention because I know you're not one to take lightly areas of economics - it represents to the province, when a farmer would choose to exercise the right to purchase this clear die sel, because it's less money than this farm-delivered purp le, it represents, in essence, a windfall profit to the Provincial Government because they are going to collect from the retailer - whoever that may be - the 7.8 cents of die sel fual road tax and that clear die sel consumed in farm tractors certainly has no impact upon the highways whatsoever.

The proposition we are making to the Min ister was to allow a system of rebate - and rebates of taxation in farm fuels is not new as we have a rebate right now of 1.5 cent litre on pu rpose gasoline from the Federal Governm ent - but it would open the option and farmers would be the ones that would choose whether they exercise that option; that if they could make a more economic purchase of clear die sel fuel and then apply for a refund of the provincial tax that's being colle cted from the retailor , it would help to lower the cost of farm fuels to the farm public; because I think you'll find that by and large, the consumption patterns of purple fuels are very peaked If you take a 12 -month graph because from approximately - and let's just pick figures - the 15 th of April to the 15 th of June you've got an extreme demand, and the same thing from approximately the 15th of Augus t till the end of September to coincide with planting and harvest, and in-between there's very li ttle.

As a consequence, you find that the farm community doesn't participate in any price wars.

But during the summer if the farm community knew that they could rebate the 7.8 cents on a clear die sel price war In July - the height of the tourist season when it happened last year for instance - it would represent a saving to the farmers and it wouldn't cost the Provincial Government any money because it would be allowing farmers the option to purchase the clear diesel, which they wouldn't ordinarily do. lt doesn't represent a drain In rev enues. lt would be an administrative thing to maybe process - I don't know, maybe 1,500 applications for rebates - because certainly there are only 30,000 farmers and not all of them would be necessa rily taking advantage of a clear diesel price war.

I wonder if the Min ister might consider that to be somet hing worthy of the Research anci Planning Division study, to see whether it's a workable suggestion and whether it's something that could be implemented to allow the farm commun ity to take advantage of price wars? HON. R.

PENNER: First of all, just let me say that I appreciate the concern raised by the member and did so indeed when it was initially raised, as did the Min ister of Finance and the Minister of Agriculture, indee d, so much so that the two Ministers are actively looking at the problem and the suggestions which have been made for dealing with it, and I hope that we can come up with something and I will cer tainly be speaking to them about it. What it illustrates, in part, is again the problems that we will run into, if I can generalize.

When you're dealing with what has been aptly called a segmented market, where the principle companies seem to be able to make particular deals, in terms of wholesale price, with suppliers that vary from one market segment to another and can be used as part of a struggle for market share, and it's variable from region to region and from time of the year to time of the year.

Howe ver, without going at this moment into that as really perhaps the particular question which Research and Planning will be looking at, I can assure the member that we are concerned about this practice and we think that Petro-Canada has looked at ways of passing through some of the savings to purchasers, but I can't answer it beyond that, other than the Ministers of Finance and Agriculture are looking into it. MR. D. ORCHARD: We ll it's interesting.

The position taken by the Minister of Finance over the weekend was that it appeared that Petro-Canada was - I believe in his words - the only one of the major su ppliers that were passing on a saving to the farm community and that was maybe good for the unk nowing information consumer out there. But I checked Petro-Canada and 1578

TUesday, 5 June, 1984 it was maybe a good political statement to make but there's only one farm bulk depot in the Province of Manitoba selling Petro-Canada fuel, so having it said that they were the good guys in this case passing on the potential savings, didn't save a nickel for any farmer in Manitoba other than the customers at Petro-Canada out of the Winnipeg Bulk Depot.

I would just offer to the Min ister that given from time to time in this adminis tration there is a pension for over-regulation for an attempt to solve the problems legislatively by The Consumer Protection Act that the Minis ter mentioned in his opening statements -The Fa ir Trade Practices Act I think was the proper terminology - I would venture the opinion that if you approach this fuel price war proble m from the standpoint of regulating companies to pass on any or all savings to all segments, what you're simply going to do is eliminate the price war because I don't think it was much of a coincidence that when the MLA for Thompson raised the question some 15 months ago, or 16 months ago, about the differential between Northern Manitoba and Southern Manitoba, and the then Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs undertook to study the problem, within a month the price war was gone in Winn ipeg and no one was enjoying any savings.

So, if you attempt to coerce the companies, you're going to find out that they will take their price war to obtain market share to another jurisdiction, because Southern Ontario - a much larger market -enjoyed a price war on gasoline for a much longer period of time than we did briefly in Manitoba. They simply moved their price war and their attempt to garner market share out of the Province of Manitoba because - and I make this suggestion and the Mi nister can refute it - there was a possibility that there may have been some legislation or some adminis trative or regulatory impediment put in place.

What I'm suggesting to the Min ister is a way to get around this diesel fuel tax, as one part of it, is simply to allow a retiate system. lt could be very easily policed in the farm community because, if I as a farmer came in and I said I'm using -let's pick a figure -say 10, 000 gallons of clear diesel which I've just bought and I want the fuel tax back on it, there's nothing to stop me then going and retailing that, less the 7.8 cents, and beating everybody in the country and not using it in my tractor. That's a legitimate problem which I mentioned to the Min ister the day I talked to him.

You simply follow, as you do with your road tax reduction program as you come east from the Saskatchewan Border, you simply monitor on the basis of last year's diesel fuel consumption and if a farmer comes in with purchases of 2,000 gallons last year and applies for a rebate on 10,000 gallons this year, without farming any more land, you know something is not quite kosher. Admin istratively, I think, it could be very easily done and then it would allow the farmer to make the market decision, if it's worth his while, to take advantage of a price war.

You wouldn't be moving the price wars to other provinces, you would simply allow -and quite frankly it would be a heck of a good deal, because the fuel companies, in essence, would be paying you the road tax and the farmers would be getting advantage of it. There's only one loser in a situation like that and that's the oil companies.

I prefer that approach, and I would like to have the Minister's research people see if that's not something that's workable and, by offering the choice to the consumer, as to whether he takes advantage of a price war, will certainly have no danger of moving the price war elsewhere and leave consumers the choice. HON. R. PENNER: I th ank the member for the suggestion. The question of a tax rebate of course strictly speaking, is within the jurisdicition of the Minis ter of Finance, however, I will speak to him and, to the extent that our Research and Planning staff are able to look at the problem, they will do so.

MR. D. ORCHARD: Would it be appropriate to discuss the northern differential here or do you want to do it under Consumer Affairs? MR. CHAIRMAN: We'll do in under Consumer Affairs because we denied the opportunity for the Member from Lakeside. MR. D. ORCHARD: Would the Mini ster like to ind icate where he'd want to study it. Mr. Chairman, I don't think you care where it's studied, or shouldn't. HON. R. PENNER: We were talking about it under Research and Planning so if you want to follow that up under Research and Planning we might as well do it now, if you don't mind. MR. D.

ORCHARD: I take it that the staff has studied this problem for the last year to determine, at least from media reports there appears to be no justification for the size of the differential. Some differential, I suppose, is expected. Does the Min ister believe that there is sufficient grounds for a formal investigation into the pricing practices? HON. R.

PENNER: In the sense there's an unexplained, or not satisfactorily explained, differential-after you take into account extra transportation costs, the need for extra bulk storage which you might not encounter in the city where there's more direct delivery of the product from the refinery to the retail level; once one allows for those factors, and once one takes into account what clearly appears to be some retailing, wider retailing margins, there may certainly be some residual problems that we are unable to account for, but what we can say is that at that level we're really into some very difficult questions where we don't have the resource.

In a sense we're waiting for, or waiting upon, the national enquiry to furnish us with some of the information upon which we may continue the investigation. At this stage we may have gone about as far as we can go with the resources we have. MR. D. ORCHARD: I appreciate that, quite frankly, with two people working you rnay not be able to come up with all of the answers. Certainly you've identified that there is an unexplained problem there. Wait ing on the Federal Government to come up with their analysis of the industry would have one concern in my estimation. I recall back two years ago, or maybe 1579

TuHday , 5 June, 1884 it was three years ago, the Federal Government came up with a r6port which showed how the energy indus try had ripped off, over a period of 15 years or whatever the number of years were, several billions of dollars. lt got a lot of play and it fit well with corporate bashing because the oil companies are one of the easiest people you can politically take on and score points because nobody likes big oil; but the problem that the Federal Government has is that they are a major reason for high energy prices in this country.

They've got, with a myriad of taxes - and this is as of February'83 and that's not up-to-date, I will admit - but they take, I believe percentagewise, almost 45 percent of the price of fuel through one level of taxation or another.

When the Federal Government tabled that report accusing the oil companies of a horrendous rip-off of the consum er, it was like, truly, the kettle calling the pot black, because the Federal Government, through the National Energy Program and recent taxation initiatives, has taken the Canadian consumer for far more money than ever the private sector, the big, bad oil companies, had done.

That circt..mstance exists provincial ly, as well, and I think it might be fai r. to say that the Provincial Government recognized that last Budge t in that they didn't increase the provincial taxation level on any of the motive fuels, with the exception of railway diesel fuel and propane, I think, was the other one, because governments in this country are taking between 60 and 70 percent in taxation on the price of fuel.

So sometimes, although I appreciate there's a differential in Northern Manitoba, and it's a very good whipping boy to pull out the old, big bad oil company image and point out that they're doing a horrendous job, but I think, consu mers have to be reminded that the people that are whipping the whipping boy are whipping the consumer for more dollars than the oil companies are. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for ln kster. MR. D. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . 1 would just like to raise an issue that was raised to me fairly recently with the Minister. I und erstand under this

section we're dealing with Research and Planning, ·a nd this is to deal with the presale of funeral and cemetery contracts. HON. R. PENNER: That was talked about earlier and will be referred to when we come to PUB. MR. D. SCOTT: Okay, fine. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. That comes under the Public Utilities Board. MR. D. SCOTT: In a detail here, it says it adminis ters The Embalmers and Funeral Directors Act under Research and Planning, that's why I thought to raise it here, but I'll bring it up later. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (c)(1 )-pa ss; 1. (c)(2)-p ass. 1. (d)

(1) Communi cations Branch: Salaries; 1. (d)

(2) Other Expenditur es - the Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: I noticed the advertisi ng budget is down considerably this year over last or is projected to be down considerably. What adverti sing program, assuming it's one program that's been dropped or not continued this year, Mr. Chairman? HON. R. PENNER: Ye s, it's a cut in Budget, particularly a cut with respect to the most expensive part of the media component, some TV advertisement relating to duor-to-door salespersons. MR. D.

ORCHARD: The reduction in the managerial staff, was that position not considered necessary for the func tional operation of the Communi cations Branch? HON. R. PENNER: Ye s, we reas signed the duties which were previously carried out by a director and reass igned them to the other professi onal staff remaining in the section. MR. D. ORCHARD: Now, I noticed that this Communications Branch co-ordinates the department 's volunteer Outr each Program. What activities are involved there? HON. R.

PENNER: In a way this is one of our most cost effective programs because in a sense, one or two people lever about 30 volun teers, who work particularly with the visually and auditory handicapped - with the people who have a hearing handicap - with respect to advice about hearing aids and the relative worth of products on the market and some of the pitfalls to look for in an area,

whereas the member probably knows there have been, at least in the past, all too many rip-offs where products which are puffed as being something new and sensa tional are really just the same old product with a new gloss on them and are sometimes sold at two or three times the value. We 're worried about this kind of taking advantage · of the handicapped so the volunteers are able and do work very well with special groups.

With the elder ly, they have assisted in the preparation of some of the pamphlet material we use from the branch and also, those who seem to have the talent for it and can benefit from some coaching, have gone out to volunteer groups, minor speaking engagements in the sense of commu nicating information about the Consu mer Branch, about selling practices, about consumer protec tion, that type of thing. MR. D. ORCHARD: The focus, though, is offeri ng a consumer repor ting, if I may use that . . . HON. R. PENNER: Consumer protec tion. MF D.

ORCHARD: . . . corollary of heari ng aids that are available on the market and make sure that the consumer is going to get good value for his product. HON. R. PENNER: A check list of things to look out for. Certainly we want to avoid steering from one product to another. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (d)(1 )- pass; 1. (d)(2)-pass; 1. (e)( 1) Financial Services: Salaries-pass; 1. (e)

(2) Other Expenditures- pass. 1580

1.( f)

(1) Personnel Services: Salaries; 1.(f)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCH ARD: The Mini ster, in his open ing remarks, mentioned that the Securities Commission had made a request for additional staff, did I unde rstand the Minister correctly to say that it is going to be under consideration during this fiscal year? HON. R. PENNER: What I said, for greater certainty, is that when we begin our Estimate process with respect to next year, in my mind that has a high priority. We 're talking about legal staff there.

We have two legal staff in the Securities Branch now and in order for us to keep up with the rapid developments in the field of legislation, as well as to do the ordinary legal work of the Commission, the head of the Commission, Mr. Peden who is with us, feels that we fairly urgently need at least one additional legal staff. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.( f)(1)-p ass; 1.(f)(2)- pass; 1.(g)

(1) Administrative Services: Salaries-pass; 1.(g)

(2) Other Expend itures -pa ss. The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, just before we pass that, this particular group didn't have anything to do with providing us with our new neutered buffalo emblem here, did they? HON. R. PENNER: No, we didn't. But don't you like that buffalo? Well, actually you're not really looking as closely as you should. Perhaps after the meeting I can direct your attention to certain features of this buffalo which show perhaps a gender in version, but not nece ssarily a castration. MR. CHAIRMAN: Let us be relevant to the topic under discussion. MR. D.

ORCHARD: We ll, this is very relevan t, Mr. Chairman. HON. R. PENNER: The answer in any event is no. MR. D. ORCHARD: Good, I'm glad to see that this department doesn't have to take re sponsibility for developing the MLA for Wolsele y's likeness of what a buffalo should look like. A MEMBER: What does your buffalo look like? MR. CHAIRMAN: Don't provoke debate. HON. R. PENNER: Let's go. Let's go. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(g)(1) -pass; 1.(g)(2)- pass. 2.(

a) Consumer Affairs, Salaries; 2.(

b) Other Expenditur es; 2.(

c) Grants - the Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate that, perhaps in the main, the Consumer Affairs Department is concerned about various business practices, monitoring of same, responding to complaints with respect to product reliabi lity, but I'd like to raise with the Minister an area that I raise with some caution as a member representing rural Manitoba and being involved in agriculture myself.

I raise the question of what this department does with respect to monitoring what happens under so many of our major foodstuffs which are un der total supply management control or commonly known as marketing boards. I remind the Minister that products like milk, eggs, potatoes, indeed most vege tables, chickens, turkey, fish all come under this classification.

What, for instance, prompted me to ask this question or raise this issue was driving in from the ranch this morning, I noticed on CBC Information Radio that the National Egg Marketing Board, of which Manitoba producers are a part of, has reduced the price paid by the board to the egg producers all across Canada the price they're getting for eggs. Is there any formal monitoring that the Department of Consumer Affairs would have to see whether or not that kind of reduct ion gets passed on to our consumers, or do you simply re spond to a complaint if a complaint should be lodged?

Really what I'm asking is to what extent is the department actively concerned about the role that marketing boards play in what I consider to be a very important area, such a major proporation of our food bill. HON. R. PENNER: We have no legislative mandate and no program mandate with respect to marketing boards and, accordingly, we don't get into - if I can use that colloquial expression - that particular ques tion.

We are of course concerned primaril y, not necessarily exclusiv ely, because these things are so interrelated , particularly with the kind of both vertical and horizontal integration one is finding throughout the marketplace, we are concerned with retail practices and retail pricing and, of necessity does, when you look into a particular problem as it did with the gasoline thing, carry you back to the wholesaler , carry you then back to the initial supplier but, only to the extent . that an inquir y within our mandate brought us back, would we search for information.

But, at a cert ain stage and with respect to the wholesale price of regulated farm products would be an example. We would have to defer to the Department of Agriculture to secure the best advice we could from that department in order to supplement such information as we had. That's about as far as we can go with very very limited staff resources. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I would like to leave with the Minister a suggestion that I believe he , as Minister of this department, has a bigger role to play and plays it in con cert with his colleague, the Minister of Agriculture, the watchdog role if you like.

I'm well aware that the Minister of Agriculture is of course primarily concerned, as it ought to be, with fair and equitable returns coming to the primary producer, the producer of the product. But as Minister responsible for the consumer of the product, I belie ve he has an equal responsibility and that brings the kind of checks and balances that ought to make the system work. I'd like to suggest, for instance, to the Minister, that if he is faced with a situation that occurred - I think the last time it occurred in Manitoba and indeed across the country was about 1975 or 1976 - when it was 1581

'1'uMdaJ, 5 June, 1884 deemed advisable to gas hundr eds of thousands of chickens, whereby producers had to back their cars and trucks or tractors and their exhaust fumes into the chicken barns and see how many chickens they could kill. Then, if they managed to be relatively success ful, then other government employees from the Federal Department of Agriculture would come and count them, and for every chicken the farmer managed to kill he got 50 cents. That was used and is used - I raise this not facetiously - is used from time to time by supply and management boards to reduce over supply of production.

I would think that under those circumstances, or before circumstances like that arose, this Minis ter, repres enting the consumers, ought to sugge st that perhaps the consumer ought to get a break and allow himself to eat his way out of the surplus and ought to be promoting, as strongly as possible, a one-month break on chicken and broiler prices in the province, rather than simply agreeing or playing a passive role in the councils of government when these kinds of decisions are made. In other words, Mr. Chairman, what I am suggesting for the Minister, there's· a greater role for him to be played here.

I know that he is a people's person and he could get involved in these issues. Now that he hasn't got such issues like the French langua ge to deal with, perhaps he could become more involved in items that affect all Canadians and all Manltobans every morning on their breakfast plate. HON. R. PENNER: Well I just want to make it clear for the record. I've been moved by that address and I always. knew that the 197 4-75 chickens or their ghosts - in this case their ghosts - would come home to roost.

More seriou sly, because I know that beneath his benign appearance and humorous turn of phrase the Member for Lakeside is always serious. Ves there is obviously a rela tionship between the particular mandate that this department has with respect to consumer interests of that kind which may develop haven't in the last couple of years, of the kind used as an illus tration.

But let me give an example where, indeed, the coming together of different interests takes place and, as the member would know, having been a member of the Executive Council, most frequently in that particular arena which meets once a week - you may remember that Wed nesdays are Cabinet days - and a mortal phrase, "it will live longer than those chickens." When we were looking at the vexing problem and not a simple problem, the member will appreciate, of milk pricing, milk wholesal ing, the Minister of Agriculture carried the ball on that, as it were, but we also had •o be cognizant of retail interests at the same time, so there was a balancing of views that led to some of the decisions that have been taken in that area.

MR. H. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman, the Mini ster acknowledges, I suppose, what I was getting at, that the department does have a responsibility in being an advocacy of the consumer in these instances. I would hope not in confrontation with his colleague, the Minister of Agriculture, but to make sure that fair and equitable practices are exercised. I take it though that his earlier answer stands, that the department has not established any formal tie or liaison with the various boards that control so much of our important foodstuffs that they automatically are made aware of when changes take place. HON. R.

PENNER: We do work closely within our mandate with the various provincial marketing agencies and boards. We have, for example, consulted with, asked questions of, received information from, the Milk Prices Board. We do and I thank the member for his valuable suggestion. MR. H. ENNS: We ll, I take this opportunity at committee, Mr. Chairman, to give the Minister notice of a question I'll ask him tommorow.

Every egg producer is receiving less tommorow for his eggs than he did yesterday and I want the Consumer Affairs Deparment to be able to tell me how that downward pricing will be reflected to the consumers of Manitoba. A MEMBER: Free enterprise. A MEMBER: No, it's not free enterprise anymore. MR. H. ENNS: No it's not iree enterprise. This is supply and management. This is your systt.m. A MEMBER: This is what you want. MR. H. ENNS: This is what you want. If it was free enterprise you'd be paying 40 percent less for the eggs. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a)- pass - the Memb er for Pembina. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Well, I was getting concerned, Mr. Chairman, that you might try to . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm just trying to break up the conversa tion in there. MR. D. ORCHARD: Oh, I see. Very astute of you. Mr. Chairman, I'm not sure whether this is the right area to discuss it and whether you might rule this out of order, but I notice that the Consumers Bureau reviews consumer loans at financial institutions. A situation was brought to my attention here just very recently, about 10 days ago. I probably should be bringing it up in the Attorney-General's Estimates but those are gone. HON. R. PENNER: But not forgotten. MR.

D. ORCHARD: No, they're never forgotten. The circumstances are this, that a chap had a fire in his business. He's making an insur ance claim for the losses. In investigating the losses, of course, they do a personal property search and they find out that this guy, according to the liens that are registered through the Personal Property Registry system, that he is many times bankrupt.

What happened in this individual's case is that some registrations from vehicles and other things that he owned five, seven years ago, the lien still was registered even though he had long since disposed of the vehicle, traded it, sold it privately, or whatnot and it's his 1582

Tueedey, 5 June, 1984 understanding in trying to get to the bottom of this. Because this is holding up his insu rance claim, because there is some concern rightfully by the insurance company that maybe this was a deli berately set fire to forego bankruptcy, they are delaying the claim. But in investigating it, he finds there appears to be no requirement to cancel a personal property registry registration by the institution that's originally registered it. He found some with the chartered banks which were reg istered for four or five years back.

The bank had even redone the transaction and still held the personal property registra tion. Now, is there no requir ement that they be cancelled because this has caused this individual a considerable problem? HON. A.

PENNER: The member raises a good point and I can only say to him that we are looking closely at a revamped Personal Property Registry Act and I think there was new legislation passed, or at least in process, in that area - I can't remember now but I'll find out whether it's uniform legislation or legislation that was generated in Saskatchewan - but we are definitely looking at a revamping of the act because there are certain anomalies and you've addressed one of them. The member has addressed one of them that we want to catch and deal with. So I'll cert ainly take note of that question and that concern. MR. D.

ORCHARD: That's good that it's coming because I think it's an unusual circumstance and it only was triggered by the fact this fellow is making a sizable insurance claim. I don't think I'm speaking out of turn but this individual confided that if he doesn't have his insurance claim settled by the end of May, he probably wasn't going to be In business. lt was an accidental fire and the problem is the outstanding registrations at the Personal Property Regist ry. HON. A.

PENNER: We 'll shortly be looking under Corporate Affairs at the Insurance Branch but I would suggest ,t hat the member have his constituent, or whoever, get in touch with the Insurance Branch - I see Mr. McGill is here - because sometimes we're a little bit uncomfortable with some of the inordinate delays in settling of claims which don't appear to be justified and when, with respect to one agency or one firm, there is a history of delayed se ttling of claims, we are concerned and we may not have full legisla tive powers but we have, with our Superintendent of Insurance, some good powers of persuasion. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Does the department have a guideline - and the term moral suasion would probably be the most appropriate - on the level of service charge that retail firms, retail organizations, may charge to consumers on consumer accounts payable. Are there any guidelines in place in the department? HON. A. PENNER: I wonder if the member could de fine his concern just a little more closely. Are you talking about an interest charge with respect to deferred payments? MR. D.

ORCHARD: The specific example I was going to use was last summer when interest rates were falling, the Manitoba Te lephone System increased their late payment charge from, I believe, 18 percent on an annualized basis to 21 percent and at that time prime was right around the 10.5 or 11 . I couldn't see the · justification and I posed the question to he Minister as to what the justification was for the Te lephone System increase in their charge at a time of de clining interest rates. I wondered if there was guidelines that the department used moral suasion on companies in that regard. HON. A.

PENNER: In fact, with respect to the particular example used where indeed it's a utility se eking to assess a late payment charge, that must be approved by the Public Utilities Board. MR. CHAIRMAN: Any other questions? 2.(a)- pass; 2.(b)- pass; 2.(c)-pa ss. The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: In terms of the grants, Mr. Chairman, to whom are the grants made? HON. A. PENNER: Ye s, there are two grants.

A grant to the Consumers Association of Canada, Manitoba Branch, which for the fiscal year that we're looking at will be $9,900; and a grant to the Community Consumer Credit Counselling which for the fiscal year that we're looking at will be $56, 100.00. In each case, these were grants given In previous ye ars and increased for this year by 3 percent . MR. D. ORCHARD: The Consu mers Association of Canada, Manitoba Branch, Is a worthwhile organization and it sort of brings in just a comment here and I know the Minister will take this in the light that it's offered.

But the Consume rs Association was very supportive last year of the Manitoba Cattle Producers Association in terms of their consumer advert ising that they were doing. They were here on behalf of the cattle producers which would seem like sort of an unusual position for the Consumers Association to be here. supporting a check-off capability to the Cattle Producers Association which could be said to raise the price of beef to the consume r.

I just want to indicate that despite the endorsation of the Consumers Associations of the advertising and the Public Commu nication Program that the Cattle Produc ers Association undertook, and their support of, it's no longer existing because of the feat of this government. I think the consumers have lost by not having that advocacy forum there. HON. R.

PENNER: May I just comment - one comment exchanged for another and I hope also taken in good spirit by the Member for Pembina - I, for one, I can't speak for my colleagues, generally, was so persuaded by the elegance of the, the eloquen ce - the elegance too - but, the eloquence of the opposition with respect to the formidable strength of the CPA that it clearly would continue to exist without the checkoff; that the checkoff was just a way of assisting it to collect the dues which would naturally flow In in any ev ent.

I had no doubt that the CPA would continue and carry on its services, perhaps even now that it would then be 1583

TuftdaJ, 5 June, 1184 free from government control implied by such a checkoff would be able to double its efforts. You shock me by telling me that that isn't so. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, the problem was that there was no government control in there and that's why this government elimi nated them. HON. R. PENNER: Oh, ah well what can I say in response to that, but we agree to differ. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a ), 2.(b), 2.(c)- pass. Resolution 41: Resolved that there be granted to Her Ma jesty a sum not exceed ing $768,500 for Consumer and Corporate Affairs for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1985- pass. Item No. 3.(a)( 1) Corporate Affairs, Corporations Branch: Salaries; 3.(a)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Memb er for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, the staff in the Corporations Branch is up two. Is it fair to assume that that's re sulting from the NUANS program for title search and property search? Is that staff to run the new computerized program? HON. R. PENNER: it's related both to workload and the need to have some additional hands on board to deal with the work that is related to ·the introduction of the computer program. MR. D.

ORCHARD: With the Mini ster's opening statement he indicated that, hopefully, within a year or shortly thereafter , with the anticipated success of the computerized search program, that staff requir ements may well be down in this branch. HON. R. PENNER: I think, what we can say with perhaps a greater degree of certainty is that we will be able to handle increased workload without staff addition. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(a)( 1) - pass; 3.(a)(2)- pass. 3.(b)( 1) Insurance Branch: Salaries; 3.(b)

(2) Other Expenditur es - the Mem ber for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, in terms of the insurance indus try provincially as a global figure, has there been an increase in, for instance, fire claims over the last year, a noticeable increase? HON. R. PENNER: Sor ry, I should have been introducing staff sooner, but we're going through this at a relatively fast rate and my . . . MR. D. ORCHARD: You're just so co-operative, Rolly. HON. R. PENNER: I give that appearance in any event. I'm sorry that Mr. Kahn, the head of the Corporations Branch has gone, but I think you will be familiar with Mr.

McGill, who is our Superintendent of Insu rance, and probably the best in the country. I would have said certai nly the best in the country, but I'm still looking at the possibility that there's always a chance for a claim for increased Executive Salaries and so I moderate a little bit. MR. CHAIRMAN: Any other question on this item? HON. R. PENNER: You had a question, I'm sorry - have there been Increased fire claims? Not that we're aware of. MR. D.

ORCHARD: In terms of, and I'm not sure whether this is a function of the insurance branch, but do they offer - and I'm sear ching for the terminology to put it into - but are there guidelines that the insurance branch wishes to have followed for retailers of Insurance services to assure that the consumer is informed about his buying decision? Am I clear in what I'm sear ching for? HON. R. PENNER: In fact it's an excellent question.

I'm not saying that just to try to get along, but it is because what it does is identify a concern which we have and we're monitoring, where the agents out in the field, in some instances, not so much in Manitoba yet, but elesewhere, tend to be marketers, not just of insu rance, but perhaps of other financial packages.

We're concerned about the possibility, since the motivation of money is sometimes not the best motivation by itself, where you're not working from a strong ethical background of persor.s who might, in a sense, not bate and switch, but tend to increase their opportunities for commissions by moving people's investments from one area to another. That's one concern which we have that the superintendent is monitoring very closely. MR. D. ORCHARD: That really wasn 't an area of concern that I was getting at.

The Minister in his opening remarks indicated that the travel indus try, given a problem that some of the travel ling public experienced with the bankruptcy of some wholesaling firms, lost their deposits, the travel ind ustry internal ly, as I · unde rstand the Mini ster's opening remarks, is deve loping a program which should effect ively protect the consumer.

I detect from some discussions I've had with insurance agents that there appears to be a desire to assure, and for want of a better term I'll use, to assure the profes sionalism of the retailing service in the insurance field - be it auto, be it general insurance for fire and property protection. I'm wondering if there are minimum standards that the insurance branch wishe s to see for agents who un dertake the business of offering insurance packages for sale. Is there a minimum standard requirement there? HON. R. PENNER: They must pass an examination prior to being licensed.

Let me supplement that with some additional Information. In this area, as in any oth r profes sional area, and the legal profe ssional area is .10 different, it's not only a question of making sure ti'xe is a minimum standard when the person gets in, but they maintain that standard. One of our concerns is ongoing, continuing education and continui ng maintenance of standards. We are discussing that with the Insurance Agents' Association because one of the problems is, at what point do you make that a compu lsory feature of maintaining the licence, and if you do, do you require re-exam ination.

We want to make sure that while maintaining standards, maintaining 1584

Tuettd .y, 5 June, 1184 freshness in terms of developments of the industry, that we're not imposing an undue hardship on people who have been responsibly in the business for some period of time. MR. D. ORCHARD: I don't know whether it's a concern, but my observation of the insurance industry is that, with inflation and particularly under liability insurance coverage, be it the mail man slipping on your front step, etc., or a farmer with a snowmobile on his property hitting a fence -those sorts of potential libel cases - with recent court settlements seeming to award higher and higher benefits to complainants .

HON. R. PENNER: Damage awards. MR. D. ORCHARD: ... damage awards, yes, that's what I was looking for -that we may run into a circumstance where a businessman or an individual believes they've got adequate third party protection, but they haven't. The only way they find out, of course, is unfortunately during the court process where it's too late. One of the offshoots of that is whether there is a consumer ability to lay a claim on the insurance agent who they believed had improperly insured. Is there a format there?

Is there a bonding requirement that is minimum in the Province of Manitoba for insurance agents in case of that? I don't believe it has ever happened, but it may be something that we are going to be confronted with over the next number of years. HON. R. PENNER: The member is dealing with a couple of related problems, one has to do with the amount of liability insurance that is carried by the ordinary person and that may relate to auto insurance or in the instance used to the homeowner's package.

Some of the amounts there now, are more conventionally tied to the basic amount of insurance and it's almost a formula amount that's tied in with the standard package. The only area -unless we were to legislate some minimum-in order to take account of the occasional, but really only occasional, high awards in those kinds of instanc es because the high awards really almost always stem from an automobile accident where the multiple massive injur y lead ing to paraplegia or quadriplegia produces the exact ordinary awards.

The mailman slipping on the steps is not likely to exceed the usual amounts available in the standard package, but that could happen. To try and legislate in an area in which the problem is relatively so isolated, probably is not warranted. The only other possible area that is dealt with in the question is whether or not a seller of insurance can, in certain circumstances, be sued for professio nal negligence in not properly advising the consumer of the product with whom the agent is dealing of features which he ought to advise that person.

That exists at common law, but is not one that I would want to advise anybody they could really rely upon in this field. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I wasn't suggesting a need for legislation. I think there is every possibility that if there are problems in terms of the professional abilities of the retailers of insurance functions that they may well work out their problems the same as the travel agents did, and make proposals which would assure that the standards are continuing to be high and continuing to be current.

If that were the case, I'm quite sure the Mini ster and the department would be most receptive to those kinds of ideas. MR. CHAIRMAN: If the member is through with his line of questioning, I would like to recognize the Member for La Verendrye. Mr. Minis ter. HON. R. PENNER: Perhaps, if the Member for La Verendrye doesn't mind waiting just a second. One of the things we are discussing with the association, is errors and omissions ins urance for the insurance agents. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'd like to pose a few questions with regard to the Northern Union situation. I guess before I ask him, I should declare that my wife is an insurance agent in the general insurance field, however, she does not have any outstanding claims with Northern Union since that wasn't one of hers. But having said that, Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Mini ster could inform the House as to the situation with regard to the policyholders. Was all coverage restored and what kind of shape has that left the agents in who had sold the policies? HON. R.

PENNER: Unfortunately, I can't really answer that question other than in general terms. As the mem ber is no doubt aware, the company is in receiversh ip and Dunwoody is the Recei ver. The Receiver is faced with a number of problems before it can really ascertain with any certainty the assets available to meet the liabilities. Certainly, there are substantial liabilities in the sense -well, two kinds of liabilities -the principle liability is that of insured who suffered the loss before they had an opportunity to reinsure and when they came knocking at the door with thei