April 22, 2004 Alberta Hansard 983 Legislative Assembly of Alberta Title: Thursday, April 22, 2004 1:30 p.m. Date: 2004/04/22 [The Speaker in the chair] head: Prayers The Speaker: Good afternoon. Let us pray. Let us keep ever mindful of the special and unique opportunity we have to work for our constituents and our province, and in that work let us find strength and wisdom. Amen. Please be seated. head: Introducti on of Visit ors The Speaker: The hon. Member for Medicine Hat. Mr. Renner: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Today we’re very privileged to have guests from the Pacific Northwest Economic Region visiting legislators and ministers in our Legislature Building. Just prior t o coming into the House, we had a number of members who met with them over lunch, and they will be meeting wit h a number of ministers throughout the afternoon. It’s my pleasure to introduce to you and through you to al l Members of the L egislative Assembly two of the thr ee gues ts who ar e with us today. U nfortunately, Representative Jeff Morris of the Washington State Legislature is not able to join us f or question per iod.

He w ill however be returning very shortly. Mr. Speaker, I would like to introduce to you Mr. Matt Morrison, who is the executive director of PNWER, Pacific Northwest Economic Region. Jeff hails from Seattle. Joining him in your gallery is Mr. Marvin Schneider, who is with our own International and Intergovernmental Relations. He is the director for U.S./Mexico relations and has been working diligently with Mr. Morrison and Mr. Morris in facilitating their meetings throughout the day.

I ask that they rise and receive the normal wa rm welcome of all me mbers in the House. head: Introduction of G uests The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Justice and Attorney General. Mr. Hancock: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It’s my pleasure today to introduce to you and through you to members of t he Asse mbly Catherine Ripley of my constituenc y of E dmonton-Whitemud. Catherine is here thi s afte rnoon to observ e the est imates of the Department of Learning, which come before the House this after- noon.

In addition to bei ng a great parent of two teenage children, one of whom attends Harry Ainlay high school and the o ther attending Strathcona composite high school, sh e ha s for the past number of years been the chair of the Whitemud Coalition of Schools, an organization for which I have a great deal of respect and which I’ve had the opportunity to work with over the past number of years.

Catherine and the c oalition do inva luable surv eys of the schools in our area and provide me with a great deal of information with which I can harass the Minister of Learning from time to time, and I take the opportunity to do, and it’s great background and help to an ML A to have that kind of support. If that doesn’t take up enough of her time, she’s the author of children’s books. I’d ask Catherine to rise and receive the traditional warm welcome of the Assembly. The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Transportation. Mr. Stelmach: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It’s certainly my pleasure to introduce to you and through you to members of this Assembly eight very special guests from the Bruderheim seniors’ centre seated in the members’ gallery, all very strong volunteers in the community of Bruderheim. The y are Helen Romanchuk, Iris Penonz ek, Ron Martineau, Mona Bovell , Des Bov ell, Eilee n Loeff elmann, and Alfred Loeffelmann. I would ask all to please rise an d receive the traditional warm welcome of this Assembly. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Castle Downs. Mr. Lukaszuk: Thank you, Mr. Speak er.

Indeed, it ’s a unique occasion and a pleasure to introduce to you and through you a Polish television camera crew that is visiting us in the members’ gallery, led by Mrs. Agata Konarska, and assisting her is Mrs. Madej, a member of our E dmonton P olish commu nity. I’d li ke the m to ri se and receive the warm welcome of our Assembly. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Learning. Dr. Oberg: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. It gives me great pleasure to introduce 11 people that work in my department.

These people work in an area that is really a hidden jewel in my bureau - cracy and in my department, and it’s a h idden jewel that the hon. Leader of the Opposition and I have had discussions ab out before. They’re from the Learning Resour ces Centre. I w ould ask Rut h Juliebo, Whitney Masson, Re nice Riche l, David C howne, L ois Rogers, Bill Vanderm eer, Edd Sem eniuk, Donna Vincent, C athy Daoust, S usan Graham, Tim Torn berg – I do ap ologize for my pronunciation of those names – to rise and receive the w arm welcome of the Legislative Assembly. The Speaker: The hon. Leader of the Official Opposition. Dr.

Taft: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It’s my pleasure to rise and introduce to th e Assembly and to you somebody who has driven many, many miles to come here today to watch the p roceedings of the Assembly. He’s seated in the public gallery. He’s the principal of not one but tw o schools in B ow Is land, Alberta. His name is Stuart Angle, and I would ask him to rise a nd receive the wa rm welcome of all MLAs. Thank you. Mr. Lougheed: Mr. Speaker, I’m pleased to introduce to you and to members as sembled 44 students f rom Win Ferguson c ommunity school in Fort Saskatchewan. They’re accompanied by their teachers Mr.

Jeff Spady and Mrs. Joanne Simpson as well as parent helpers Mrs. Bonnie Bowes, Mr. Paul Kristensen, Mr. Ernie Hansen, Mrs. Deb Parent, and Mrs. Vicki Kippen. I would ask that they please stand and receive the traditional warm welcome of this Assembly. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Red Deer-North. Mrs. Jablonski: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Today I have the honour and the pleasure of introducing to you and through you to members of this Assembly 56 bright and energetic students from the Red Deer Christian school. Th ey are accom panied by their teachers Mrs. Carolyn Stolte and Mr.

Jim Driedger and by their parent helpers Mrs. Marilyn Pleadwell, Mrs. Elaine Campbell, Mr. Alan Ten Hove, Ms Chris Thiessen, Mr. Gordon Smith, and Mrs. Sheila Van Alstyne. I would ask them all to rise and receive the warm welcome of this Assembly.

Alberta Hansard April 22, 2004984 The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Highlands. Mr. Mason: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I’m pleased to rise today and introduce to you and through you to all members of this Assembly a number of members of the Internationa l Order of Odd Fellows and Rebekahs. I had the opportunity recently to be a judge at a public speaking contest for young people that is organized by the local

chapter of the Odd Fellows and Rebekahs, and what a wonder- ful group of young people they were. They are going to be a credit to this House some day. Their speeches were tremendous. I’d like to extend my appreciation to the Odd Fellows and Re bekahs. The winner, I believe, gets a trip to the United Nations, and I think it was a wonderf ul part of the work tha t this gro up does . So I’d l ike Florence Ponto, Arlene Coates, Bob Whalen, and Marilyn Nichols to please rise.

Also, the gracious hostess accompanying them is my new constituency assistant, Mary MacKinnon, and I’d like her to rise as well and receive the warm welcome of this Assembly. The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Seniors. Mr. Wolos hyn: Thank you ver y muc h, Mr. Speak er. I’m very pleased to introduce to you and through you to the members of the Legislature Mr. Albe rt Mastromartino. He ’s the pr esident of the Nissan Canada Foundation. Mr.

Mastromartino joins u s today following a very special ev ent celebrating the donation of three brand new va ns provided by the Nissa n Canada Founda tion, Ericksen Nissan, and Mills Nissan for use by the Meals on Wheels program. I’d like to commend both the Nissan Canada Foundation and Meals on Wheels for making a very real difference in the lives of seniors in t erms of their health and indepen dence. I’d ask Mr. Mastromartino, who is seated in your gallery, to rise and receive the warm welcome of the Assembly. 1:40 The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Glenora. Mr. Hutton: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It’s a pleasure to rise today and introduce to you and through you to members of the Assembly a constituent of mine who is here to obse rve the pr oceedings this afternoon. Lynn O dynski is an Edm onton public school board trustee. I would ask her to please rise and receive the traditional warm welcome of this Assembly. head: Oral Quest ion Peri od The Speaker: First Official Opposition main que stion. The hon. Leader of the Official Opposition. Government Travel Expenses Dr. Taft: Thank you, Mr. Speak er.

T his g overnment’s cabinet, unlike those in ot her province s, exem pts itself from freedom of information legislation and is strangely reluctant to release detailed information on the travel and entertainment expenses of the Premier and his ministers. There is no reason the Premier can’t make public photocopies of cabinet expenses. My questions are to the Premier. Given that a photocopier can copy a thousand pages in 18 minutes for $10, why doesn’t the Premier just photocopy Executive Coun- cil’s receipts and make them public? Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, we a re evaluat ing the w ay w e handle expenses.

But I woul d remin d th e hon. Leader of the Official Opposition that it’s not so much the revelation of expenses – and that’s not a problem for us; it’s not a problem – but it’s how much government spends.

If they were rea lly concerned, they would look at their L iberal cousins in Ottawa and see the opulence, the extravagance, and the use of taxpayers’ dollars to fund the sw imming po ol and all the trappings of 24 Sussex, to accommodate the huge living room that occupies the A320 Air bus that the Prime Minister flies around in, to accommodate the four or five Challenger jets that were bought at taxpayers’ expense to cart ministers and MPs back and forth and to and fro, to accommodate the multitude of security people around the Prime Minister, to accommodate his stretch limousines, to accommo- date the lavish dinners that he holds.

They should be talking about that instead. Dr. Taft: Given that other governments are able to post their cabinet ministers’ expense receipts on the web for everybody in Canada to see within three months, why doesn’t this government do the same? Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, again, we are evaluating the way that we report our expenses, and that will be reported. We are not going to take the advice of this Liberal opposition, which, by the way, wasn’t elected to be the g overnment. We w ill do what is right, what is open, and what is transparent.

The simple fact is that a $27.50 jug of orange juice comes nowhere near the opu lence and the extrava- gance of their Liberal cousins in Ottawa. Dr. Taft: How does the Premier explain to Albertans that they aren’t allowed to see these receipts when they pay the tab? Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, the expenses are reported yearly to Public Accounts. The $10,000 that the hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar spent to travel across the bridge, the $10,000 he spent last year to travel to and fro and wherever, is r eported to Public Accounts.

The only difference is that they do not post their expenses or details of those expenses on the web site. Instead, he just says, “I spent $10,000 to travel within the constituency of Edmonton-Gold Bar,” which you can spit across. The Speaker: Second Official Opposition main question. Health Care Reforms Dr. Taft: Thank y ou, Mr. Speak er. The Alberta Liberal s are committed to a strong public health care sy stem, a commitment shared by most Albertans. What Albertans do not want are taxes on the sick and health care based on what one can afford instead of what one needs.

T he best w ay to m eet legitimate h ealth care needs is through a public health care system, yet this gov ernment has said that everything is on the table when it comes to health care reform. To the Premier: will the Premier reassure A lbertans here and now that this government will not introduce health care user fees? Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, as the hon. Leader of the Official Opposi- tion pointed out, ev erything is on t he tabl e. While it’s not our intention to go out of our way to contravene the Canada Health Act, there may be some things in the reforms that could.

As he pointed out, everything is indeed on the table. Relative to the caucus discussion today our caucus was adamant that we need to take bold steps n ow to make sure that we have a health system that is there for us in the future. All the premiers, all the ministers of health fully agree that the system we know now is simply not sustainable, and it will bankrupt a number of provinces. Although it mig ht not bankru pt Al berta, the costs of providing funding for health care are very severe indeed.

April 22, 2004 Alberta Hansard 985 At caucus today the Health and Wellness minister laid out what he called a road map for reform. He spoke in very, very broad, general principles about cost pressures in areas such as drugs and new technologies. He talked about finding new and innovative ways to fund the system. An Hon. Member: User fees. Mr. Klein: Well, they’re saying user fees. That’s about a three- second sound bite, but it’s good enough, and that’s what they like to play on. They have no notion, no idea, nor do t hey hav e any responsibility for developing policy.

He talked about making better use of privately delivered services within the publicly funded system to reduce p ressure and w aiting times at hospitals. Already we have evidence that some of these procedures are very useful in relieving pressure at publicly funded hospitals. A number of procedures now are contracted by regional health authorities, and for years and years, of course, the RHAs and the government generally have been contracting services to private operators for seniors in long-term care.

Caucus members raised many questions, including questions about access and labour cos ts and whether the Canada Health Act needs updating and the impact of an aging population. Mr. Speaker, all of this will be brought together in a package. It will be released to the public – I assume that the Liberals will go out of their way to get it; I hope that they do, anyway – and then we’ll bring that package to caucus and have a good discussion.

The Speak er: Hon. members, caucus mee tings and the subject therein are not norm ally the subjects of question period, but if the leader of the government chooses to discuss it, that’s certainly his prerogative as the leader of the government. The Leader of the Official Opposition. Dr. Taft: Thanks, Mr . Speaker. Will the Premier rule out hea lth care insurance deductibles, which require patients to pay the first portion of their treatment costs before public payment kicks in? Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, you’re absolutely right.

Normally we don’t talk about what takes place in caucus, but I had the courtesy today to explain exactly to the hon. Leader of the Official Opposition what we discussed generally in caucus. I would point out that this is far more than the Liberals would ev er do. They never share anything that comes out of their caucus. Nothing. The Speaker: The hon. leader. Dr. Taft: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This question comes out of our caucus meeting this morning.

Given that Albertans already pay taxes and they pay health care premiums, will the Premier rule out reforms that would force patients to pay even more money out of pocket based on their income? Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, again, he’s looking for an answer that will provide the good 15-second sound bite so that they can take that out and tout it as government policy. I’m not going to fall into that trap other than to say that we had a good discussion in caucus today. 1:50 We agreed with the minister’s road map leading to reform.

We agreed that a pac kage w ill be brought together, that it w ill b e released to the public, that it will be discussed by caucus. Then, following that, there will be a public consultation process. At that time the Liberals can make all the political noise they want and spew out all the rhetoric they want. I fully expect it. Automobile Insurance Reforms Mr. MacDonald: This government’s insurance reform has become both a trage dy and a farce for Al berta m otorists a nd a foreign language film without subt itles for Conservatives at their private, behind-closed-door standing policy committee meeting on Tuesday.

It is reported that the government’s leading actor, the hon. Member for Medicine Hat, hadn’t even seen the latest version of t he script before last Tuesday’s meeting. Albertans demand to know who was in charge of the insurance file. My first question is to the Premier. How open and transparent can Albertans expect this government to be with them when it doe sn’t even let the pe rson in charg e of the insurance reforms see the advance copy of the proposed changes? Mr. Klein: Well, Mr. Speaker, I can’t speak for the hon.

Member for Medicine Hat and w hat he kn ew and w hat he did not k now, but obviously the Liberals know a lot. So something must be open and transparent. Mr. Speaker, the reason there are only seven of those people over there, or six now and soon to be five, is that they don’t understand the essence of politics. They don’t understand the essence of people. People, at the end of the day, are not c oncerned so much about process or what happened at an SPC meeting or what didn’t happen at an SPC meeting.

What they are concerned about at the end of the day is their pocketbook and whether or not young good drivers will see a reduction, albeit phased in, of their premiums, whether older male drivers, who are now penalized, will see a reduction overall in their premiums, and whether those in the middle range will see their rates being c omparable to other rates, that they’re being treated fairly. That is what the people are concerned about at the end of the day. These people are concerned about the nitty-gritty, picayune kinds of things that don’t mean a tinker’s damn to the public. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr.

MacDonald: Thank you. People in this province are concerned about what the insurance policies are doing to w hat’s left in their pocketbook. Now, if the g overnment’s own ML As w ill not endorse the insurance ref orms th at are pr oposed, how doe s this gov ernment expect Albertans to be satisfied with this latest attempt to reform the insurance file? Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, you know, the reason there are 73 of us and only five of them is that we listen to people.

Do you think that this caucus is going to do somet hing that is going to hurt consumers when we set out, relative to our insurance reforms, to protect consumers? Get real. He doesn’t get it. That’s why there are only five of them, and after the next election there will be even fewer. Mr. MacDonald: Again to the Premier. Did the proposed reforms stall at the closed-door private meeting because the insurance industry wasn’t there to direct the action? Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, I wasn’t at the SPC. The Speaker: The leader of the third party , followed by the hon. Member for West Yellowhead.

Alberta Hansard April 22, 2004986 Health Care Reforms (continued) Dr. Pannu : Thank y ou, Mr. Speak er. Today the Conserv ative caucus met behind closed doors to discuss this government’s radical plan to charge the s ick and injured for health care. Rather than release their plans to the public and allow Albertans the benefit of a full and vigorous debate on these issues, the government prefers to engage in a campaign of cover-up and misrepresentation.

Not only has this government invoked the name of Tommy Douglas to defend charging the sick for health care; they incorrectly point to a number of European examples to justify their plan to turn health care over to insurance companies. My questions are to the Premier. Given that Tommy Douglas a ctually envisio ned a h ealth care system that covered all health services, including drugs, dental care, and other services not presentl y cove red, isn’t t he Premie r completely misrepresenting th e Douglas vision for medicare when he uses Tommy Douglas’s name to dismantle health care? Mr. Klein: Mr.

Speaker, I’m not using Tommy Douglas’s name . . . The Speaker: I really have no id ea how that leads to g overnment policy. That’s a personal

interpretation. If the Premier wishes to proceed with this related to government policy, please do, but we’re not going to g et into a d ebate on the historical merits of Mr. Douglas. Mr. Klein: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. There are some ways that the words of T ommy Douglas f it into healt h care. N ow, I’m reading from a document, albeit coff ee-stained, that is entitle d Man’s Destiny Cannot Be Settled in the Marketplace. This is a sp eech given by Tommy Douglas. I’d be glad to share it with you. I will quote so as to not be misquoted or so as to not have any o f my comments misinterpreted by the hon. member.

I will quote verbatim. In his speech on page 142 he says, “I want to say that I think there is a value in having every family and every individual make some individual contribution.” Do you believe that? [interjection] Right. Do you believe that? I think it has psychological value. I think it keeps the public aware of the cost and gives the people a sense of personal responsibility. I would say t o the m embers of th is H ouse that even if we could finance the plan without a p er capita tax, I personally would strongly advise against it.

I would like to see the per capita tax so low that it is merely a nominal tax, but I think there is a psychologi- cal value in people paying something for their cards. It is something which they have b ought; i t entitles them t o certain services. We should have the constant realization that if those services are abused and costs get out of hand, then of course the cost of the medical care is bound to go up. Well, Mr. Speak er, that’s what T ommy Douglas said, and that coincides so mewhat with the p olicy that we’re now develop ing. We’re saying that there is a cost to health care.

We’re saying that, as a matter of fact, it’s getting close to $8 billion in this province. It consumes up to 50 per cent of s ome provi ncial budge ts. We’re saying also that unless something is done and people realize that there is a cost to health care, then the health care system as we know it will collapse. It will collapse completely, and it won’t be there for these young pe ople in the fu ture. It w on’t be there for the hon. leader of the third party or his seatmate. It won’t be there for any of us. It will collapse. It will either collapse or it will bankrupt the provinces and the country. Mr.

Speaker, those c osts ar e going out of control. You cannot sustain a sys tem with costs tha t rise by 7 or 8 per cent each year when the annual i ncrease in revenue s is about 3 or 4 pe r cent. It simply is out of whack, and it needs to be brought back into line. The Speaker: Hon. members, we’ve now spent four minutes on a discussion of a philosophy of a person. It has nothing to do with this Assembly and the question period. Now, let’s move on. I’ve got 14 members. The hon. member. Second question. Dr. Pannu: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Given that Tommy Douglas’s daughter has com e forw ard and ac cused the Premier of being dishonest and twisting Douglas’s words, will the Premier apologize to the Douglas family for using the Douglas memory for . . . The Speaker: Okay. Hon. leader, that is not a question within the purview of the que stion peri od in this Assembly. Now , this has nothing to do with g overnment policy, so go on to your third one, please. Dr. Pannu: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Given that according to the British Medical Journal Sweden is actually reducing the private- sector presence in health care, isn’t the Premier’s use of this country to justify his agenda just more false and misleading spin? 2:00 Mr. Klein: No. It’s not a false and misleading spin to say that we want to look at w hat works in Sweden. If the y are redu cing their dependency on the private sector, fine. We will look at that, and we will ask the question: why are you doing this? What didn’t work? What did work?

I’m sure the hon. member would like to take out of that system and other systems in other jurisdictions those things that work and work well. Mr. Speaker, I have to comment because the hon. member alluded to Mr. Dougla s’s daughter, but he didn ’t allude to his gr andson, Keifer Sutherland, w ho spoke in Ca lgary but thought he w as in Manitoba. So i f he’s going to give credence and credibility to the Sutherlands, then I think that we should mention the whole family. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Fort, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar. Traffic Safety in Calgary Mr. Cao: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. During the Easter break a tragic traffic collision in our Calgary-Fort constituency took the lives of a young man and his son and se verely injured his da ughter. This deadly collision involved a heavy semi truck and a compact car and took place at the intersection of the Barlow and Peigan trails just at the end of the Deerfo ot Trail e xit ram p. My ques tion is to the Minister of Transportation.

Given that our provincial government is responsible for the D eerfoot Trail and tra ffic safety in genera l, could the hon. mi nister ask the department to undertake improve- ments at this intersection such as putting in speed bumps? Thank you. Mr. Stelmach: Mr. Speake r, the depar tment is currently in th e process of com missioning a consultant to review this particular intersection. The consul tant will h ave to work w ith the city of Calgary to ensure that whatever improvements we do make at that particular intersection and interc hange will also pha se in with the city of Calgary’s road plans as well.

The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Cao: Thank you. My first supplemental question is to the same minister. Could the m inister as k his depar tment to review the accident exit situation from the Peigan Trail into the Deerfoot Trail interchange and recommend improvements?

April 22, 2004 Alberta Hansard 987 Mr. Stelmach: Mr. Speaker, yes; we are. Safety, of course, is a top priority in terms of building our roads and road improvement. Here again on this particular

section we’re also in the process of hiring a consultant as we ll. There will be considerable activ ity on th e Deerfoot Trail ov er the nex t three y ears. In fact, i t’ll be one construction zone from one end to the other. Unfortunately, for the people in Calgary it will be interrupted traffic, but it all is going to lead to a much safer freeway through that city. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Cao: Thank you. My last supplemental question is to the same minister.

Given that the tragedy occurred in that spec ific intersec- tion, could the minister tell the Asse mbly if an ything else is being done to improve the safety conditions? Mr. Stelmach: Mr. Speaker, it’s a good question, but there’s only so much that can be done in terms of improvements to a road way. We know tha t adding an i nterchange where th e traffic warrants it will reduce incidents b y 47 per ce nt. We know th at widening a highway when the traffic warrants it will reduce accidents by about 50 per cent.

But at the end of the day, when we look at all collisions and all acc idents in this province, 90 per cent of the m are driver error. So, yes, we ca n decreas e a numbe r of thes e incidents with improved roads and road design, but we also need the co-operation of all Albertans to ensure that they handle themselves appropriately when they’re at th e steering wheel and pay attention a nd try and reduce the significant percen tage, 90 per cent driver er ror, to something that perhaps is a little more acceptable. But at the end of the day it’s still the driver behind the wheel.

Automobile Insurance Reforms (continued) Mr. MacDona ld: The Of ficial Opposition has learned tha t the regulation regarding caps on m inor injuries reads lik e this: the $4,000 cap will cover all sprains and strains or whiplash-associated disorders that do not result in serious impairment; se rious impair- ment is defined as substantial impairment to physical or cognitive functions that result in substantial inability to perform employment, training or educational or daily living activities; further, the impair- ment must be continuous with no reasonable expectation of substan- tial improvement.

My first question is to the Premier. Why is this government forcing an unwanted $4,000 cap on pain and suffering on Albertans who are involved in traffic accidents when the govern- ment’s own poll recently indicated that only 5 per cent of Albertans support the cap? Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, I wasn’t at the SPC meeting, and this will have to work its way through. Policy is discussed. The way it works – and you will never know because you will never be in government – here in our system is thus.

An item goes usually from the Agenda and Priorities Co mmittee, or it can be initiated through any other committee or any source, to a standing policy committee, where the policy merits of a proposal are discussed. If there is a recommenda- tion, either negative or positive, or no recommendation, the matter is then brought to cabinet, and cabinet either approves it or amends it or rejects it. If the matter is something that is . . . [inte rjection] Well, it’s very important because he has to understand the process.

Then if the matter is of broad, general importance – first of all, all matters are reported to caucus. Some matters are brought to caucus without a recommendation or even with a recommendation to seek caucus approval. [interjection] No. I’m explaining the process. I know that you don’t have a process because you can’t. You’re not the government. Therefore, y ou can’t have a process, but we do. We are charged by the people of this province to make government policy, to make policy on behalf of the people. So where we are right now is at the standing policy c ommittee stage.

Whatever was decided at tha t committee has not come to cabinet, has not gone to caucus, so we are not there yet. We are not there yet. Now, if the hon. member has som ething constructive, other than nationalizing or socializing our car insurance system, as the Liberals would like done, other than tha t, if he ha s any bright suggestions, any constructive criticism, we’d be glad to hear it. Mr.

MacDonald: Again to the Premier: given that this cap is a huge financial break for the insurance industry, which has recently posted record windfall profits, how much money will the $4,000 cap save the insurance industry at the expense of innocent accident victims in this province? Mr. Klein: Mr. Speake r, could I pose a question to the hon. member? Is he deaf or just stupid? I explained the process. He’s talking as if policy had already been developed. Now, I don’t know what was dis cussed. I will see the reports, obviously, before the y come to c abinet. [int erjection] Well, h e doesn’t want to understand.

He doesn’t want to underst and. He doesn’t want to think and contemplate what government procedures are, and that is frustrating because what he is doing is talking about something that presumably was in a report, and he’s talking in the context of that being government policy. Well, nothing is policy yet. Nothing. The Speaker: Actually, to answer the question from the Premier, the Premier cannot ask a question in the question period. That’s only reserved for private members.

Speaker’s Ruling Parliamentary Language The Speaker: The question “Is the member deaf or is the member stupid?” is probably a most inappropriate ques tion. One m ight suggest that the member might be handicapped, and the othe r one might suggest something else. So I would really ask the Premier to withdraw that statement. Mr. Klein: I’m sorry, Mr. S peaker. I ’m sorry for calling t he member stupid and deaf. The Speaker: The hon. member. 2:10 Automobile Insurance Reforms (continued) Mr. MacDonald: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Again to the Premier: because we know that the voters of this province aren’t stupid and they’re not deaf either, how many innocent motor vehicle accident victims in Alberta will have their legal rights limited by this govern- ment’s $4,000 cap? Mr. Klein: Well, Mr. Speaker, on the point that was raised by the hon. member in his

preamble, I agree with him a hundred per cent. That’s why there are 73 of us and only five of them. Mr. Speaker, again, I don’t want to conduct a clinic in politics, but all we’re doing relative to car insurance reform is responding to the people and tryi ng to crea te a sy stem t hat is fa ir for y oung mal e

Alberta Hansard April 22, 2004988 drivers between 16 and 25, who are now penalized; to make sure that those in the mid-range are treated fairly and pay comparable rates to those in socialist provinces; that those who are penalized because of older age are treated fairly; and that victims, people who are injured in accidents , are f airly compensated, not over compensated, not undercompensated but fairly compensated. There can’t be anything wrong with that.

Now, if the hon. member d isagrees with that policy and that direction, then stand up a nd tell Albertans that he disagrees with a policy that want s to achieve fairness for young male drivers, good drivers, that creates fairness for those in the mid-range, that creates fairness for older good male driv ers, that fairly compensates those injured in accidents. If he is opposed to those policies, please stand up and say so. Say so, so that all the media and all the public of this province can hear this hon. member, because we want to know where he stands on this issue. The Speaker: The hon.

Member for Lac La Biche-St. Paul, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Mill Woods. 4-H Club Beef Sales Mr. Danyluk: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. In May and June hundreds of cattle will be sold by 4-H club members across this province. Many of these animals need to be slaughtered shortly after they are purchased, but the curr ent regulations state that the c attle must be owned for 30 days before m obile butchers can slaug hter them. This requirement may deter some businesses and individuals from purchasing 4-H steers because they won’t be able to slaughter them right aw ay.

My que stion is to the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development. What is the minister doing to address these concerns for 4-H members? Mrs. McClellan : Well, Mr. Speaker, a number of me mbers, particularly rural members, have raised this issue, as have some of our 4-H beef clubs that are looking at their upcoming sales. The regulation that the hon. member is referring to is the meat inspection regulation. It is designed to ensure that meat is produced, slaughtered, and sold in a very safe manner.

When w e initiall y consulted on these regulations, we found that individuals that were purchasing animals might not necess arily know the history or the health of the animals and hence the condition that you had to hol d it for 30 days. Howev er, understanding that there are people who may want to purchase an animal from a neighbour for their own use, that we have many clubs that are looking at their sales in June, we’ve asked our department to review this regulation and try to accommo- date these speci al circum stances while st ill address ing the f ood safety concerns.

There are a variety of ways that we could do that, and we’re in the process right now, and I think we are going to be able to make this work. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Danyluk: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. To the same minister: will th e proposed re gulatory amendm ents addres s the concerns that the m obile butchers have, I guess, i n their desire to provide a competitive choice for 4-H animal purchasers? Mrs. McClellan : Well, Mr. Sp eaker, there are 52 provincial abattoirs in the province that are inspected and, I must say, operate at a very high standard.

We also have a mobile slaughter industry in this province that operates very well. The change to this regulation would all ow, p articularly i n c ommunities where there isn’t an abattoir, the opportunity for the mobile slaughterer to accommodate those animals. Now, any one of us might purchase a 4-H animal. My colleague the minister of health might purchase one and would not have any place to accommodate that animal for 30 days save on the deck at his office, I suppose. I t might be a little l arge. So, Mr . Speaker , common sense has to prevail in this, and that is the approach we’re taking.

It is my expectation that w e will conclude this review and have this amended, dealt with in a way that accommodates those special circumstances and also preserves food safety. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Danyluk: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I want to thank the minister for acknowledging the concerns that are out there with 4-H members. My second supple mental is again to the mi nister of agriculture. Can she give us any indication when the regulations will be changed, and will they be changed in time for the June 4-H sales? Mrs. McClellan: Well, Mr.

Speaker, the very simplest and probably the best way to address this would be to remove the 30-day require- ment. That would not be difficult to change in the regulation. Mr. Speaker, I think this is a reminder of how fa r reaching th e BSE crisis has been in this province. We have a number of young 4-H people who have worked very hard raising their animals and are about to sell the m and, of course, some limited market.

I w ant to commend the com munity organizations that have addressed this, such as the Medicine Hat chamber of com merce, who hav e done fundraisers by selling promotional beef T-shirts, and those dollars are going to a ssist in the purchase of 4-H calv es. That is o ne example of what is happening across this province. The people in this province recognize the fine work of the 4-H movement and also recognize that we have the strongest 4-H program in Canada, and we want to maintain it. The Speak er: The hon. Mem ber for Edm onton-Mill Woods, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Rutherford.

Grade 12 Diploma Exams Dr. Massey: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Last November the Minister of Learning supported students writing parts A and B of the grade 12 diploma exams a week apart in the fa ce of criticism from parents, students, and teachers. Now the diploma exam

schedule for 2005 on the Alberta Learning web site shows a return to holding parts A and B on the same day. My questions are to the Minister of Learning. Is the web site correct? Dr. Oberg: Yes. Dr. Massey: Okay. Again, then, Mr. Speaker, to this same minister: given that Alberta Learning’s web site sta tes that students’ marks were higher when the exams were staggered, what is the rationale for reverting to the old schedule? Dr. Oberg: Mr. Speaker, it is not exactly the old schedule. We still have the exams split in two parts.

What we found is the concentra- tion of the students first of all on multiple choice so that the students will specifically go on multiple choice. The second part of the exam will be the written part of the exam, where the students concentrate specifically on the written part.

April 22, 2004 Alberta Hansard 989 What we postulate happened and in talking to students after we did split apart the exams about how they actually wrote the exams was that the m ajority of students w ent through a nd wrote a ll the multiple choice answers. Then if there was time and if there was the ability to do it, they concentrated on the written answers. What we found is that those students who were doing extremely well had the capability to go through and do all of it. Those students that were borderline did the multiple choice and then, realistically, did not pay full attention to th e written.

When we w ent and split the exams, what we found was that by concentrating specifically on the multiple choice and then concentrating specifically on the written component, the students’ exam marks went up. 2:20 One of the criticisms of the past

schedule was that there was too far a split between social and social, for example. I will say that we have always said that we will compress it as much as we can. What we have now done is put social A and social B on the same day. The next day we w ill have sc ience A and scienc e B. Biolog y A a nd biology B. Those types of things. We’re confident that we can get it marked by the end of the year. We’re confident that students will do better, and, Mr.

Speaker, this is just another example of govern- ment going out and talking to the people involved and coming out with a solution that’s going to give answers to everyone. Dr. Massey: Again, then, to the same minister: if that’s the case, why didn’t you talk to people in the first place? Dr. Oberg: Mr. Speaker, first of all, there were several issues that were out there. We did n ot kn ow tha t we cou ld get the exa ms marked. One of t he issues was, a s the hon. m ember knows, that following the strikes, all the markers of the exams were pulled off, and we had a n extremely difficult time marking the exams.

We signed an agr eement with the Alberta T eachers’ Association that guaranteed that the teachers would mark the exams for one year only, so we did not have the assurance that we have today that teach ers would actually mark the exams. What we found out – and I will say to the hon. me mber tha t this wa s purely by chanc e – is that the students did considerably better by splitting the exams, as I already stated. So we are now working on refining the

schedule as much as we can to compress it as tightly as we can. The only very interesting component about this is that one of our concerns was actually getting the written tests back to us. What we did – and I think the Legislative Assembly might find this interesting – is that we put a $5 fine out there if they didn’t get the exams back to us in time. Mr. Speaker, with the last set of exams every exam in Alberta was returned on time, which allowed us to continue to mark them on time.

S o with all these re finements we’ve been able to refine the exam schedule, and I think we have something here now that’s going to prove to be excellent for all students in Alberta. Workplace Fatalities Mr. McClelland: Mr. Speaker, Albertans don’t leave home thinking they may be killed on the job. Regrettably, 127 Albertans lost their lives at the workplace last year. Next Wednesday, April 28, is the National Day of Mourning for those killed in the w orkplace. My question is to the Minister of Human Resources and Employment. How will the government honour those men and women who died on the job?

The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Dunford: Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker, and thanks to the hon. member for the questio n. Yes, in f act, Wednesday, April 28, w ill mark the day of mourning for people that were killed on the job site, and we do have plans to commemorate these poor, unfortunate folks. Probably the most visible commemoration will be the f act that all flags at provincial buildings will fly at half-m ast on th at day in remembrance of those workers that didn’t make it home. We’ll also be making requests of you, Mr. Speaker, for a couple of things.

Right now I would hope to plan a ministerial statement, but also we would like to ask you if on that particular day you would see fit to lead us in 127 seconds of silence. We want to say, Mr. Speaker, that these w ere needless deaths. This is something that we’re working hard to try to overcome, but the fact that they have fallen, we must remember them. Mr. McClelland: My supplementary is to the same minister. What is the government doing to ensure that workplace fatalities are not just seen as a cost of doing business? Mr.

Dunford: Well, to pick up o n the question if I can, they are a tremendous cost to business, and we are trying as best w e can to educate employers about the actual trauma and stress that family and friends and fellow employees must go through when there is such a fatality, you know, all of the people that surroun d that employee. This is a very serious situation when we talk about 127 deaths. We of course will recognize the following week National Occupational Safety and Health Week and t ry to do our best in that situation.

Again, this is som ething that call s fo r constant e nforcement and reinforcement on the trag edy that takes place inside our province much too often. If you have been following the t ypes of adverti sing that we’ve been trying to do around this situation, we lose a worker about every third day, and every three and a half minutes there’s an incident that causes injury tha t prevents a worker from reporti ng at their next shift.

I empathize with what the Minister of T ransportation talked about earlier, the fact t hat of the se 127 deaths the overw helming majority are happe ning on the roa dways and the hig hways within this province. Mr. Speaker, as a government we are going to have to do something sooner or later about this epidemic. Highway 3 Mr. Bonner: Mr. Speaker, Coleman area residents are still in shock over this government’s decision to suddenly conduct another functional planning study on the highway 3 route when this govern- ment has alread y a pproved a s outhern route.

To the Minis ter of Transportation: given that considerable development has taken place to the nort h of Coleman an d that th e citizens p aid high prices for acreages with the knowledge that the highway was going south, what liability is this government prepared to acc ept if the nor th route is approved? Mr. Stelmach: A couple of things, Mr. Speaker. First of all, these questions came up in the House before, and I mentioned at that time that the department is conducting through the work of a consultant various open houses.

No decisions have been made, and as a result I’m not going to speculate on what is tied up in some sort of liability in terms of ownership of property. Mr. Bonner: Mr. Speaker, to the same minister: how much is this new study costing Alberta taxpayers? Mr. Stelmach: I don’t know, but I’ll present that to the House. Mr. Bonner: To the same minister: when does the minister expect that a final decision on the route will be made?

Alberta Hansard April 22, 2004990 Mr. Stelmach: Mr. Speaker, I believe that when I get the ex act amount of this particular contract, the cost of the consultant, I’ll be able to advise the member of a date as well, when I get that informa- tion, in terms of what the expected completion is of this particular review and open house. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Highlands, followed by the hon. Member for Calgary-Currie. Calgary Courthouse Mr. Mason: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

Last October the Conservative government selected a private consortium to finance and build a new court centre in Calgary based on a design that the company itself had come up with. Six months later the cost of this flagship P3 project has ballooned to half a billion dollars, an overrun of 67 per cent, causing the project to be put on hold. My question is to the Minister of Infrast ructure. W hat exac tly ca used this increase in cost for the Calgary courthouse project? Mr. Lund : Mr.

Speaker, once again, as our Premier has been mentioning, the opposition loves to try to find a 15-second bite that is going to be great in the media. The fact is that the number that the leader of the Liberal opposition came out with yesterday, the $170 million, was for the Provincial Court, not anything like the project that we embarked on in the city of Calgary with the consolidation of all th ree courts.

So to start comparing bananas and apples an d oranges is the typical thing that they’re up to. 2:30 The fact is that the number that they’re now working with was not the construction cost alone, but it was all of the cost. Unfortunately, when we build something with our own money, we don’t include the cost of the money. There’s a cost to money, and we don’t include it. But the number that they’ve been throwing around is a number that is in the ballpark if you take the whole cost and you bring it back to present-day value. Now, I know they wouldn’t understand that, but that’s what it is.

I t’s unfortunate that the y keep bandying around numbers that are not true capital costs. Mr. Mason: I know what net present value is, Mr. Speaker. I want to indicate t hat I gav e the m inister a chance just to a nswer t he question and he chose not to do it, so I’m going to ask him whether or not the P3 developer lowballed the costs to win the bid only to reveal the true costs once it had been selected to build the project. Mr. Lund: Mr.

Speaker, that’s terribly unfortunate that the member would call into question the integrity of these great people that put all of the time and effort and mone y into coming forward with a proposal. The fact is that we estimated internally the cost of a project with over a million square feet. This is a huge project. Actually, there were three replies to the requests for proposals. Two of them came in below our estimated cost. Then we negotiated with the final one, and we brought the c ost do wn even more, Mr. Speaker.

To make sure that we were being accurate, we put out a dummy bid, and the dummy bid came in higher than our estimate. So you got the dummy bid high, we got ours above, and then we’ve got the actual one down below. So, Mr. Speaker, it’s terribly un fortunate that they woul d make those kinds of comments about people that are in business and that are very, very conscious of what they’re doing. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Mason: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Well, it’s too bad the dummy bid didn’t win.

Why are Calgarian s being f orced to accept a scale d-back court facility not adequate to meet future needs just because the gove rn- ment is stubbornly refusing to acce pt tha t P3s have been proven almost everywhere they’ve been tried to cost more and deliver less? Mr. Lund: Mr. Speaker, he said, “Too bad the dummy bid didn’t win.” Well, the fact that it didn’t win is because it was the highest of the three. That’s why it didn’t win. It’s very interesting that just yesterday the member was standing up and saying: cancel it; don’t build it; just don’t bui ld anything.

Now today he’s saying that we should be concerned about the fact that there isn’t one being built. Mr. Speaker, I think that there are actually two departments that are involved in t his, and as it relates to the nec essity to build in Calgary, I’ll have the Attorney General supplement my answer. The Speaker: The Minister of Justice and Attorney General. Mr. Hancock: Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker. This government is on record as indicating t hat we need in Calgary to build a facility which will adequately house the Provincial Court, the C ourt of Queen’s Bench, and the Court of Appeal.

We have succeeded; we have a fac ility w hich adequate ly houses the Court o f Appe al. Unfortunately, the Provincia l Court is sc attered around the down- town in inadequate facilities, and w e need to deal with that. So we’ve moved a head with an appropria te facility to accom modate both the Court of Queen’s Bench and the Provincial Court. We’re still moving ahead on that project, but a s the Minister of Infrastructure has indicated, we are looking at the most appropriate way to build it and a cost-ef fective way to build an appropr iate facility. We will build an appr opriate facility.

We will house th e courts in an appropriate manner with a good, long-term view with respect to the type of accommodation that they need in order to serve the citizens of Calgary and region. We’re committed to doing that; nothing has changed o n that. But the government does look, as a government prudently should, at all the different aspects and all the different ways of building and financing and choose the best way in the interests of the people of Alberta. The Speaker: Hon. members, on this day in the first part of the 20th century the hon.

Mem ber for Little Bow entered the world, so we wish him a happy birthday today. Before I call on the first member to participate in Mem bers’ Statements, might we revert briefly to Introduction of Guests? [Unanimous consent granted] head: Introduction of G uests (reversion) The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Bow. Ms DeLong: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. It’s my pleasure to introduce some guests to you. I’m not sure whether they are still in the House or not. They are from the constituency of Wainwright. It’s a group ca lled th e Alliance Fun for All social club. It’s a seniors’ club.

There are 10 of them. There a re three names that I have from them: Norman Johnston, Emma Bullee, and Mary Wold. So if they are in the House, could they please s tand to receive our greetings.

April 22, 2004 Alberta Hansard 991 head: Members’ Statements Cochrane Branches and Banks Environmental Foundation Mrs. Tarchuk: Mr. Speaker, today I would lik e to recog nize the community of Cochrane’s Branches and Banks foundation. In 1996 when the federal and provincial governments asked municipalities to begin working towards sustainability, the town of Cochrane gladly took on the challenge. As a result, among other programs the town developed Cochrane Branches and Banks foundation, which hosts a signature event tha t promotes environm ental ste wardship and community spirit.

The foundation, which has e volved into a r egistered nonprofit society supported by the town of Cochrane, organizes an annual tree plant and wate rway clea nup in Cochrane every spring. Sinc e the event’s inception over 2,400 volunteers have planted approximately 20,000 trees. This family event grows in popularity every year and teaches young Albertans the benefits of volunteering and protecting the environment. In addition , the Cochrane Branches and Banks foundation was selected as the 2003 community group emerald award winner.

This is a very prestigious award recognizing environmental excellence in the province of Alberta and an important recognition of the outstand- ing efforts of this community, its volunteers, and sponsors. Mr. Speaker, a core group of volunteers has dedicated their time and energy to organizing this event over the years. I would like to honour those vol unteers as well as the town o f C ochrane f or exemplary comm unity s pirit and dedication to environmental initiatives.

I ask all members of the Legislature and the people of this great province to recognize the following community and environmental advocates: Tim Giese of the Cochran e Envi ronmental Action Committee; volunteer co-ordinators Keith and Evelyn Milne, Brent Schmidt, Andy D egraw, and Terry Robertson; Garry Murdoch of Aquila Networks Canada; Rob Olen ick of Spray Lake s Sawmills; volunteer residents Alice L aine a nd Joan Mansfield; Rebecca McElhoes of NOVA/TransCanada Pipelines; and Jill Knaus and Al Weidman from the Bow Meadows Community Association.

Please join me i n congra tulating the town of Cochrane, t he Cochrane Branches and Banks foundation, and the many volunteers involved with this program. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Mill Woods. Humanities and Social Sciences Research Funding Dr. Massey: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Imagine a world where only thoughts and ideas that will result in a tangible outcome are pursued because they are the only ones viewed to have any merit.

This is a frightening prospect that is sadly becoming more and more a reality in our country, where the federal government funded 2,000 research chairs in the year 2000 but only 20 per cent of those were allocated to the humanities. This year’s federal budget also seems to empha- size hard results over ideas. While humanities and social sciences, which include disciplines like psychology, history, education, law, economics, and literature, continue to attract more than half of Canada’s university students, a rising percentage of government money is focused on hard sciences that show results in practical terms.

This erosion of the value placed on the exploration of humanities and social sciences is causing concern on u niversity c ampuses and is a maj or reason f or the proposed revamp of the federal research granting agency, the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council. Unfortunately, the council’s recent consultation framework on its transformation caused al arm w hen it sugg ested that the council’s core values m ust expand to include inte ractive engage ment and maximum knowledge impact.

This would not promote the develop- ment of ideas but, rather, force people involved in the hum anities and social sciences to continually justify the practical application of their work. A university should be a pla ce whe re ideas can be ex plored without always looking at the bottom line. Measuring the impact of a project before it has been undertaken could discourage people from completing projects that prove to be valuable to our society. A decade ago a humanist book on the history of gay marriage was criticized and l abelled as a wa ste of r esearch money, but now it seems only to be a head of its time.

The value of research into the humanities and social sciences is everywhere, shaping thoughts and policy, challenging opinions, a nd informing casual conversation. We err badly when the only view we foster is an economic view of humans. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: The hon. Member for West Yellowhead. 2:40 Year of the Coal Miner Mr. Strang: Thank you very much, M r. Spe aker. I rise today to recognize the Year of the Coal Miner and the contribution that this industry and its people make to our province.

Since the last decades of the 1800s coal has been the foundation of many com munities an d ind ividual lives throughout Alberta, including in the West Yellowhead constituency. Coal mining wa s first developed in southern Alberta, where it was often quarried by pick and shovel and hauled out i n wooden crates on skids or by horses. During that time two miners, of course, worked together and produced on average five or six tons of coal a day. Today coal is a high-tech industry that extracts resources in a more environmentally friendly manner.

Whe n someone mentions coal mining, the image of an underground m iner, that w ould normally come to mind, no longer holds true. Open-pit or strip mines now dot the landscape where electric shovels, trucks, and excavators work to mine the coal. All told, between 30 million and 35 million tonnes of coal is produced in Alberta every year by highly skilled workers. The resource goes on to help provide electricity for homes as well as other uses. For instance, gases, oils, and tar extracted from coal can be used in the manufacture of products ranging from gasoline and perfumes to mothballs and baking powder.

From Bankhead and the Crowsne st Pass to Hi nton and Gra nde Cache co al has been instrumental in the deve lopment of Alberta, providing j obs to our citizens. I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate and thank all Albertans involved in coal mining this Year of the Coal Miner. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Strathcona. Small Business Dr. Pannu: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This government often claims to be a friend to business in Alberta. This is only partly true.

The government policies favour its friends and large corporations and the highly profitable oil companies an d other o perators in the ener gy sector. Small businesses, on the other hand, have been abandoned. In fact, Mr. Speaker, I’ve heard complaints from small-business owners across t he pro vince and thr oughout my co nstituency. Problems began when electricity deregulation gave business owners

Alberta Hansard April 22, 2004992 sky-high electricity bills. Many business owners have been forced to choose between hiring staff and turning on the lights. Some had no choice but to close their doors altogether. Further, this government has allowed rising insurance premiums to increase the squeeze on sm all business. While big insurance companies announce record profits, m any small-business owners struggle with ma ssive inc reases to property , business, and auto insurance costs.

In fact, a recent study by the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, which was tabled by my colleague from Edmonton-Highlands, shows that over half of Alberta businesses had experienced a 20 per cent increase in property insurance and nearly 70 per cent felt that high insurance costs are a serious problem. Of course, there are the ever-present health care premiums. This regressive health tax gives nothing to sm all busin esses e xcept administrative headaches. Premiums also make it harder to compete with larger corporations who can offer to pay premiums as part of employee remuneration.

Many small-business owners cannot afford to provide those benefits for their employees and are therefore at risk of losing them. For years average Alberta families have struggled with user fe es, healt h premium s, and hidden c osts, and s mall businesses now face a similar battle. Mr. Speaker, sm all-business owners mus t overcome eno ugh challenges just to stay afloat . It’s t ime the government stopped burdening small businesses with unnecessary and entirely unavoid- able additional costs. It’s time small businesses got a better deal. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker: Hon. members, might we revert briefly to Introduction of Guests? [Unanimous consent granted] head: Introduction of G uests (reversion) The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Castle Downs. Mr. Lukaszuk: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Visi ting us today in the members’ gallery is a group o f 60 Vietn amese seniors who have decided to build a seniors’ home in my riding of Edmonton-Castle Downs, and for that I would like to thank them. They’re today led by Reverend Thich Thiên Tam, four Buddhist nuns, and also Vinh Hang, who is showing them the Legislature and the precincts. I’m particularly excited, Mr.

Speaker, because chances are that the Member for Calgary-Fort will be my constituent one day. I’d ask them to rise and receive the warm welcome of this Assembly. Thank you. head: Present ing Pet itions The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Castle Downs. Mr. Lukaszuk: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to present a petition signed by 161 emergency medical service workers in the city of Calgary who petition the Legislative Assembly to “support Bill 204, the Blood Samples Act, which will provide more security and peace of mind for people working in occupations who have a higher risk of exchanging bodily fluids with a potential carrier of a blood borne disease.” Thank you, Mr. Speaker. head: Notices of Motions The Speaker: The hon. Deputy Government House Leader. Mr. Zwozd esky: Thank you, Mr. Speak er. I ris e pursuant to Standing Order 34(2)(

a) to give notice that on Monday I will move that written questions appearing on th e Order Paper do stand and retain their places with the exception of written questions 48, 66, 68, 69, 71, 75, 76, 77, 78, and 79.

I’m also giving notice that on Monday I’ll move that motions for returns appearing on the Order Paper do stand and retain their places with the exception of motions for returns 24 through 31, 34 through 42, 44 through 49, 52, 53, 55 through 62, 64, 66, 69 through 73, 75, 78 through 83, 88 through 105, 108 through 123, 128, 134 through 143, 146 through 160, 162, 164 through 168, 174 through 180, 183 through 189, 197, 200 through 205. Thank you. head: Tabling R eturns and R eports The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Strathcona. Dr. Pannu: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’ve got three documents to table today.

The first one is an

article f rom the British Medical Journal from February 28, 2004. This a rticle indic ates that the government of Sweden has dec ided to ban the de velopment of private, for-profit hospitals and take other additional steps to stop the development of a two-tier health care system in their country. The sec ond document, Mr.

Speaker, is a report from the CBC headlined “Douglas accuses Klein of twisting her father’s words.” This report cites Shirley Douglas’s claim that the Premier is being dishonest about the origins of medicare and that her father “stressed that medicare should be available for all, regardless of income.” The third document, Mr. Speaker, is a backgrounder entitled Myth Buster: P3 Hospitals – A Close r Look. The backgrounder was published by the O ntario Hea lth Coalition a nd demonstr ates the consistent failure of P3s in building hospitals. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar.

Mr. MacDonald: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have two tablings this afternoon. The f irst one is th e Canadian prope rty and c asualty premiums and profits key financial data for 123 insurers provided by A.M. Best. It’s a comprehensive look, and it is from Thompson’s World Insurance News. It’s for the benefit of a ll members of this Assembly. The second is a completion of a ta bling that I did yesterday. I apologize to the Speaker, to the table officers, and to m embers. I inadvertently did not table all the relevant documents. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Centre. Ms Blakeman: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. I’d like to table five copies of a letter from myself to the Minister of Transportation. With the onset of the summer construction season I’m urging the minister to offer immediate protection for emergency workers and construction workers on the highway with a change to the regulations under the Traffic Safety Act. Thank you. head: Tablings to t he Clerk The Clerk: I wish to advise the House that the following document was deposited with the office of the Clerk on behalf of the hon. Mr.

Mar, Minister of Health a nd Wellnes s, pursuant to the Healt h Professions Act: the College of Physical Therapists of Alberta 2002- 2003 annual report.

April 22, 2004 Alberta Hansard 993 head: Pro jected G over nmen t Busin ess The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Centre. Ms Blakeman: Thank you, Mr. Speak er. I w ould like to a sk the Deputy Government House Leader under St anding Order 7(5) to please share the projected government business for the week of April 26 to April 29, 2004. Thank you. 2:50 The Speaker: The hon. Deputy Government House Leader. Mr. Zwozdesky: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In response I’m pleased to advise t he mem ber and all memb ers here that on Monday afternoon we’ll be dealing with private members’ business, written questions and motions for retur ns, follow ed by public bills and orders other than government bills and orders. In the evening we’ll deal with motions other than government motions, and at 9 p.m. or thereabouts we’ll be going to Committee of Supply for the Depart- ment of Innovation and Science.

On Tuesday afternoon under Government Bills and Orde rs and under Committee of Supply we will deal with the Department of the Solicitor General, followed by second reading of Bill 28, the Feeder Associations Guarantee A mendment A ct, 2004, and Bil l 29, the Agriculture Financial Services Amendment Act, 2004, and otherwise as per the Order Paper. In the evening under Government Bills and Orders and under Committee of Supply we will be dealing with the Ministry of Municipa l Affairs and, i f required, second rea ding of bills 28 and 29 and otherwise as per the Order Paper.

On Wednesday afternoon under Government Bills and Orders and under Committee of Supply we will deal with the Ministry of Health and Well ness a nd third reading of Bill 22, the Election Statutes Amendment Act, 2004, and otherwise as per the Order Paper.

In the evening und er Government Bill s and Order s we’ll deal wi th th e Committee of Supp ly for the Department of Justice and Attorney General and Comm ittee of the Whole for Bill 25, the School Amendment Act, 2004, a nd Bill 26, the T eaching Prof ession Amendment Act, 2004, and third reading if necessary of the Election Statutes Amendment A ct, 2004, and otherwise as per the Order Paper. On Thursday afternoon under Government Bills and Orders and under Committee of Supply we w ill deal w ith the Depa rtment of Energy and if necessary third reading of Bill 22 and otherwise as per the Order Paper. Thank you.

The Speaker: Just a point of clarification, hon. members, before we go on. Hon. M ember for Edmonton-Gold Bar, there was an exchange during the question period today. Your colleague the hon. Member for Edm onton-Centre m oved. I think we dea lt with the matter. There’s no point of order arising. Is that correct? Mr. MacDonald: No. There’s no point of order. No. Certainly not. The Speaker: Okay. head: Government Motions The Speaker: The hon. Deputy Government House Leader. Select Special Health Information Act Review Committee 16. Mr. Zwozdesky moved on behalf of Mr. Mar:

Be it resolved that

(1) A Select Special Health Information Act Review Commit- tee of the Legislative Assembly of Alberta be appointed to review the Health Information Act as provided in

section 109(1) of that a ct consisting of the following members, namely Mr. Jacobs, chair; Ms Kryczka, deputy chair; Ms Blakeman; Mr. Broda; Mr. Goudreau; Mr. Lougheed; Mr. Lukaszuk; Mr. MacD onald; Dr. Pannu; a nd Mr. Snel- grove.

(2) The chair and members of the committee shall be paid in accordance with the

schedule of category A committees provided in the most recent Members’ Services Commit- tee allowances order.

(3) Reasonable disbursements by the committee for advertis- ing, staff assistance, equipment and supplies, rent, travel, and other expenditures necessary for the effective conduct of its responsibilities shall be paid subject to the approval of the chair.

(4) In carrying out its duties , the committee m ay travel throughout Alberta and undertake a process of consulta- tion with all interested Albertans.

(5) In carrying out it s responsibilities, the committee may with the concurrence of the head of the department utilize the services of the public service employed in that depart- ment or the staff employed by the Assembly or the office of the Information and Privacy Commissioner.

(6) The committee may without leave of the A ssembly sit during a period when the Assembly is adjourned.

(7) The comm ittee m ust submit its report, includ ing a ny proposed amendm ents to the act, within one year after commencing its review.

(8) When its work has been completed, the committee must report to the As sembly if it is then sitting . During a period when t he Assembly is adjourned, the committee may release its report by depositing a copy with the Clerk and forwarding a copy to each member of the Assembly. Mr. Zwozdesky: This is of course the legislation that safeguards the health inform ation of individual A lbertans y et allow s health professionals the access they need to m ake the most effective care decisions. The act was proclaimed on April 25,

Section 109 of the legislation requires a special committee of this Leg islative Assembly to conduct a comprehensive review of this act within three years of its coming into force. Also, as required in the act, this committee has one year to submit its report including any recommended amendments. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: It’s a debatable motion. The question should be called then? [Motion carried] head: Co mmit tee o f Sup ply [Mr. Tannas in the chair] The Chair: Good afternoon. I’d like to now call the Committee of Supply to order. head: Main Est imate s 2004-05 Learning The Chair: I’ll call on the hon. minister for his opening comments.

Alberta Hansard April 22, 2004994 Dr. Ober g: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. First of all, I would like to thank the House for supporting my ministry’s budget in the past years. We’ve made excellence in learning a priority, and quite frankly the world is taking notice. Countries around the world seek our advice in improving their own educational systems as they strive to attain the kinds of results achieved by A lberta students. Thank you very much to everyone in the Assembly for helping to make this happen. Learning’s business plan starts on page 333 of the Alberta 2004 budget document On Route, On Course.

T he business plan high- lights several strategic priorities for Alberta Learning over the next three years. I would like to dra w your attention to a few of these priorities. Alberta Learning is devel oping imple mentation plans for government-approved recommendations made by Alberta’s Commis- sion on Learni ng. The c ommission provided s ome ex cellent recommendations that will help enhance Alberta’s learning system well into the fut ure.

Gov ernment is supporting 86 o f the 95 recommendations, including class size guidelines, greater emphasis on p hysical activity a nd wellness, fine arts and second-languag e learning, and increased focus on supporting aboriginal students and students with special needs. There still are some recommendations that are yet to be implemented, Mr. Speaker. The recommendations to provide an additional $60 million to fund an identified shortfall in the system and to implem ent the renewed funding framework have already been acted on.

Work w ith stake- holders to develop a nd execute imple mentation plans to address other recommendations has already begun, and more will be done over the next five years. Three recommendations remain under rev iew: establishing full- time and junior kindergarten programs and implementing a new collective bargaining process for teachers. Another key priority this ye ar is to inc rease a ccess t o adult learning opportunities. The ’04-07 business plan incorporates strategies to ensure that Albertans are ready to be successful in the lifelong learning system.

We want to ensure that transition points into, within, and out of the system are appropriately bridged for all learners. Other key priorities for Learning include improving First Nations, Métis, and Inuit learner successes, working effectively with partners and stakeholders, and strengthening intergovernmental relations as well as enhanc ing Albe rta lear ner and sta keholder opport unities beyond the province’s borders.

These priorities are aligned with and support Learning’s three goals: number one, “high quality learning opportunities for all;” number two, “excellence in learner outcomes;” and number three, a “highly responsive and responsible ministry.” As we continue, you will see how Learning’s identified priorities are reflected in our 2004 estim ates. T he estimates for Learni ng begin on page 273 of the ’04-05 gover nment and lottery fund estimates.

These estimates reinforce government’s commitment to leading in learning an d ens ure that A lberta’s learning s ystem is flexible and responsive to the changing needs of Albertans. Government has said that education is a top priority, and Budget 2004 confirms it. Once again, this year my ministry received the second largest dollar allocation of all depa rtments. In this coming fiscal year total investment in our learning system will exceed $5.4 billion. An Hon. Member: How much is that? Dr. Oberg: Five point four billion dollars, which includ es $17 1 million in support to opted out separate school boards.

This planned spending represents an increase to base program spending of $284 million plus $ 10 million more in support to the opted ou t boards. This increase is over and above the $76 million injected during the course of the ’03-04 budget year, which brings the total increase to well over $350 million, Mr. Chair. 3:00 Our f ocus on increasing access to postsecondary programs, including apprentic eship, and respondi ng to the com mission’s recommendations will continue in ’04-05 and beyond.

Spending on the learning system will grow to $5.9 billion by ’06-07, a three-year increase of $763 million, or roughly 15 per cent. This year will be the year of building and adapting to the growing needs of Albe rtans. We wi ll continue to st rengthen our already excellent learning system to ensure that students of tomorrow have every opportunity for success and that A lberta has the skilled and knowledgeable workforce needed to be competitive for the future.

This year will see some strategic enhancements made to our K to 12 learning system to ensure that our system is sustainable and respon- sive to Alberta’s changing society. Beginning September 2004, the renewed funding framework will be fully implemented. Through collaboration with stakeholders we have established clear goals and strategic priorities for enhancing our basic learning system.

Thi s fram ework will prov ide fundin g t o school boards based on their unique circumstances, with additional support provided for students with special needs, aboriginal students, and English as a Second Lan guage students as well as fo r schoo l boards with hig her cost pre ssures, smaller schools, a nd declining enrolments. Boards will have the flexibility to use their funds to address their local needs. These include issues such as class size or s upporting other recommendations made by the Learning Commission.

Boards will also be accountable to their constituents for outcomes as well as how their dollars are spent. Government has shown support for many of the recommendations of the Lea rning Commiss ion. As I me ntioned, work is alrea dy underway to implement a number of recommended initiatives which will continue in the coming year. Some of these initiatives include implementing new second-language and physical activity/wellness programs. Mr.

Chair, I will say that the second-language initiative was officially launched today at the Telus centre at the University of Alberta and was met with extreme accolades from both parents and educators alike. We are also undertaking a number of technology initiatives, including video conferencing, and setting up a new practice review process for t eacher co mpetency. M r. Chairman, I really m ust commend the Alberta Teachers’ Association on the teacher compe- tency practice review process. This will be initiated in our present bills 25 and 26, which are before the Legislature right now.

This is truly revolutionary and sets a standard for what is going to come in the rest of the world. We will cont inue to work with sta keholder groups to look at options and implement the remaining supported recommendations. Ongoing support to the K to 12 system will increase by roughly $250 million budget ove r budget this year . It will i ncrease by $260 million, or an increase of 5.8 per cent, forecast over budget. If you take into ac count the funding injected, as I s aid, this will be $250 million, and it’s going to grow to $4.3 billion by ’06-07.

On page 277 of your estimates book operating support to public and separate schools has increased by $189 million, or 5.9 per cent, to almost $ 3.4 billion. Thi s budget g ives sc hool jurisdicti ons increased funding to ope rate th eir s chools and prov ide a qualit y education to their stude nts with the flexibility to choose how they will use funding to address their local needs and priorities.

April 22, 2004 Alberta Hansard 995 We have also renewed our commitm ent to identify provincial priorities. The Alberta initiative for school improvement will receive over $68 million this year, and, Mr. Chairman, as you fully know, this has been one o f the mo st succe ssful init iatives that Albe rta Learning has ever put forward. Funding for student health services will increase $4.4 million, or 13.3 per cent, to $37 million this year. As well, the funding for the high-speed networking will be maintained at $11 million.

Other increases include an additional $1.5 million for curriculum supports through our L earning Res ources Centre, the people that were here this afternoon, Mr. Chairman, who do just an absolutely superb job in purchasing textbooks and resources for the schools, as well as an in crease of $16 m illion for t eachers’ pensions, raising government’s contribution to $274.7 million for teachers’ pensions. There’s also an increase of $4.4 million, or 3.7 per cent, to private schools, for a total of about $121 million in ’04-05. On the postsecondary side, Mr.

Chair, the postsecondary system plays an absolutely critical role in the preparation of a highly skilled workforce as well as in the creation and application of new knowl- edge and technology. Our government is committed to ensuring that this system can c ontinue to ful fill this role. New legislation is in place, Bill 43, that’s going to guide the adult learning system well into the fut ure. Th e Post-seconda ry Learning A ct, as Bi ll 43 is called, along with significant investments in adult learning will make our adult learning system even more adaptable and responsive to the needs of our students.

Funding to support the adult learning system will increase by $93 million forecast over budget, Mr. Chairman. I will say ag ain that budget over budget this is going up $125 million, which is a much more accurate figure than the $93 million that’s in the budget. I would also like to dir ect your attention to page 279, in which support to postsecondary institutions will increase by $85 million, or 7.5 per cent, to more than $1.2 billion. Again, I keep reminding you that this is forecast over budget. This is not the number that I use, because I don’t believe that it’s a true number.

The increase will provide a 4 per cent in crease to base ope ration gra nts for publicly funded unive rsities, colleges, and technic al institutes and provide ad ditional funding to create new spa ces in hig h-priority programs and enhance our world-leading apprenticeship programs. Government will al so provide $7 m illion in ong oing operating supports to accom modate the merger of the Unive rsity of Alberta and Augustana University College in Camrose. Mr. Chairman, this merger alone will support more than 1,200 degree complet ion opportunities to meet the increasing demand in ru ral Alberta.

We are going to see Camrose become an absolute gem of the province due to the merger between Augustana and the University of Alberta. In our continuous drive to create and maintain a well-educated workforce in Alberta, we strive to ensure that financial need is not a barrier to further education. While we r ecognize that the cost of postsecondary education is a shared responsibility between students, their families, and gov ernment, governm ent does its share to maximize opportunity for students and keep debt levels down. The support to postsecondary learners this year will rise by 7.3 per cent.

This provides for an increase in funding for scholarships, for bursaries, and for grants in ’04-05. Through Alberta’s scholarship program about 27,700 students will receive almost $42 million in scholarships this year alone. We also expect to disburse some 97 million dollars i n stu dent loans in ’04-05. Yearly loan limits for all students will also increase by roughly $400. The A lberta student loan relie f benefit and the loan relief completion payment will reduce students’ debt in their first and final years of study.

This year $4.3 million has b een alloc ated to implement the new Alberta centennial education savings plan, that has recently been debated in this Leg islature. It begins January 1, 2005. This significant new inv estment will g row to about $20 million a year beginning in ’05-06, will encourage parents to sav e for their chil- dren’s education, and h elp pay the fu ture c osts of pos tsecondary education. Budget 2004 will al so help allev iate som e of the province’s infrastructure pressures due to the ra pid economic and population growth in recent years.

Alberta Infrastructure’s ’04-07 capital plan provides $1.1 billion for new and improved school and postsecond- ary facilities, $636 million to support school capital proj ects throughout Alberta , and $416 mil lion to support posts econdary projects. Mr. Chairman, the ’04-05 budget and bus iness plan continue to maintain government’s commitment to lifelong learning and ensure that all Albertans will have acce ss to an affordable, high- quality education system. Mr.

Chair, I now would invite any questions, and I will say to the opposition that if there are any questions that I either cannot answer or inadvertently do not answer, I will give them to the oppos ition members in writing. So, Mr. Cha irman, with th at, I’d be more than hap py to take questions from any Member of the Legislative Assembly. The Chair: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Mill Woods. Dr. Massey: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thanks to the minister for that overview of the budget. I have questions in two categories, Mr. Chairman, that I’d like to pursue this afternoon.

The first are sort of broad questions about the implications of the budg et and the pos sibilities in the budget, and then the others are some of the more mundane, specific-information questions. 3:10 I wanted to start with the first question, about special education and special education funding.

One of the problem s that is co n- stantly brought to the attention of, I know, the minister and certainly the opposition is the problem of the parents of speci al-needs youngsters being bounced around from school boards to th e department of health to the Depar tment of Learning to Chi ldren’s Services and really having a very, very difficult time in many cases trying to get the services that they need for their youngsters. One of the initiatives that are included in this year’s budget is the cross-ministry initiatives that are outlined on page 342.

My question to the minister is: has there been consideration of a one-stop window for parents? For many of them it involves trying to learn a lot of political skills, who’s who, and they end up frustrated at one level or another. It just seems to me that it’s so hard on them because they have difficult children to try to get services for in the first place. Do these cross-ministry initiatives include that kind of involvement? The Chair: The hon. minister. Dr. Oberg: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I do believe that I owe the hon. member one, so I will say that that’s an excellent, excellent question that the hon. member has asked. That is what we’re striving towards : to have a cross-m inistry initiative that would in essence be one-stop shopping. Included in my budget this time is t he studen t health i nitiative, and we have increased the dollars to the student health initiative q uite su bstan- tially at this particular time. One of the issues that we had with the student health ini tiative, qui te litera lly, w as that the health ca re

Alberta Hansard April 22, 2004996 workers were a ctually going up at a higher r ate than w hat the educational workers were doing. So we had to put more money into the student health initiative to do that. We are working on this, hon. member. We’re working as hard as we can because the issues that you have brought up are ex tremely laudable. When we have a parent that has a special-needs student, he doesn’t care who supplies the services, who gives the services, where the services come from as long as the services are there. We attempt to do this as best we can on the one-stop shopping system.

Are we perfect in that? No, we’re not. Are we working towards that? Absolutely. Yes, we are. One of the is sues that w e have, qui te frankly, is t he transiti on between the PUF funding and the severe disabilities funding. This is something that we’re working out to make the transition as easy as possible. One of the things that we have done, for example, is that a PUF student does not have to be reassessed for severe disabilities funding in the school system. This is an issue that occurred probably in the last three years, and we have taken that out so that they don’t need that.

We have attempted to m ake it as eas y as pos sible. I would love to be able to stan d here and say that we have one-stop shopping and that the world is great. The only thing I can answer to the hon. member is that we’re working on that. W hat he stated is absolutely the direction we’re going in and absolutely what we need. The Chair: The hon. member. Dr. Massey: Thanks, Mr. Chairman, and thanks, Mr. Minister. It is a long-over due initi ative a nd one that w ould really , I think, be appreciated by a lot of parents who have a lot of difficulties in trying to get those services.

I have some ques tions about the language initiative that was announced today. I applaud the government. I’ve been an advocate of second-language instruction. I find it a personal embarrassment that I don’t speak both of the official languages of my own country, and I’m delighted that we hav e this initia tive by the gove rnment. But my concern is the kind of advanced preparation and the kind of resources that such an initiative is going to require. To insert that first one in the pro gram across the grades is going to mean that something has to give, and what’s that going to be?

The second question I have is with respect to teacher preparation. It’s going to be, it seems to me, a huge demand for teachers that can handle that, and I would really hate lan guage i nstruction in t his province to go back to what I had: the old French programs that leave people no t even able to read labels on a cereal box let alone speak the language. So the need for really high-quality teachers who not only speak the language but know something about the children that they’re trying to teach is going to be requisite for this bein g a success, and I’d like to know how that’s going to be addressed.

Curriculum development. It talks in the news release – and that’s all I have to go by, but it seems to m e that before that’s in place or that’s being asked o f boards, the curriculum development and the resources needed to support those programs have to be w ell along the way. So I’d appreciate some comment from the minister. The Chair: The hon. Minister of Learning. Dr. Oberg: Thank you very much. I find myself in a little bit of an awkward position here, agreeing with the hon. member on the things that he has sa id. I, too, am emb arrassingly unil ingual, and i t’s something that I’m not really that proud of.

Mr. Chairman, we announced the second-language initiative today amidst quite a considerable amount of fanfare from both parents and educators alike. Is this an easy initiative? No. Let’s put it on the table. It is not an eas y initiative. Is it a necessary initiative? Absolutely. Personally I find it e mbarrassing that our educati on system has not done a better job in languages. What we have seen right now is we’re sitting a t about 23, 24 per cent of students that take a second- language course, and keep it in mind that that could be something as simple as French 10 or French 20 or something like that.

To me as Minister of Learning that’s an embarrassing figure, and it’s my job and it’s my initiative to do something about this, and subsequently we have launched the second-language initiative. This initiative will start off in 2006. It will start in grade 4. Mr. Chairman, the first year will b e grade 4. The se cond year will be grades 4 and 5; the third year, 4, 5, and 6; and so on. So if you’re in grade 9 in 2006, you do not need to expect that you will be expected to have fluency in a language . That’s not going to oc cur. It w ill follow the students up through the system.

At the end of grade 9 you will have what is called a beginner level of competency in the second language. If you continue on in second languages in grades 10, 11, and 12 – at whic h time the courses are going to be optional at this moment; I would at some point in time like to make them mandatory as well, but th e logistics of that are a little more complicated than what we can realistically do right now – you will have an intermedi- ate level of competency in a foreign language. If you choose to go on to university, you will be able to have the full level of language competencies.

When it comes to curriculum development, what we have done is we have taken se ven d ifferent languages and have looked at curriculum in all seven languages. The important thing to remember here, Mr. Cha ir, is that we have n ot developed these curriculums ourselves. We hav e gone out to other jurisdictions and w e have gone out to other countries and actually taken their curriculums, ones that we find satisfac tory f or Alberta ns, and we ’ll utilize their curriculums.

One of the things that we have done, for example, is worked very closely with Spain to develop a Spanish curriculum, and indeed we are in the proce ss of purc hasing the Spanish curr iculum from the Cervantes Institute in Madrid, which is one of the world-renowned institutes when it c omes to Spanish language. We have also borrowed a lot of other curriculums. A lot of them, though, we have developed ourselves. We have a very extensive Cree curriculum in the city of Edmonton and some of the northern units, so what we’re doing, quite simply, is taking those curriculums and making them available to all Albertans.

So from a curriculum point of view I’m confident that we will have the curriculums in place f or this initiative. My people tell me that w e are well on t he way and do have these curriculums available. 3:20 The teacher preparation is probably the question that I get asked the most. W hen I talk abou t this underta king, is i t an am bitious undertaking? That’s p utting it mi ldly. It ’s a ve ry am bitious undertaking, not necessarily in Edmonton and Calgary. In Edmon- ton and Calgary we have a lot of teachers that speak a lot of different languages. The abil ity to te ach language is the re.

Wher e we’re going to run into som e issues is in rural Alberta. In the ham let of Gem, Alberta, for example, with a student population of somewhere around 25 to 30, is it going to be a problem? Yeah, it is. What we’re going to be relying on is the SuperNet with vi deo conferencing capabilities. We’re doing some experiments right now in the Prairie Rose school division on the ability for the SuperNet and for the video conferencing to be able to teach these languages. It’s looking very, very good, and I truly believe that we will be able to do that.

April 22, 2004 Alberta Hansard 997 I have ta ken the a pproach, Mr. Chair, in this initiative that we simply cannot afford not to have a second language. Therefore, we are putting in a lot of r esources and we’re doing a lot of things to ensure that this occurs. Another couple of things, if I m ay have t ime to s ay this, is we announced today as well s ome bursaries, $2,500 bu rsaries, some grants of up to $5,000 for teachers to go back, for example, and learn the second languages, more so learn how to teach second languages.

We have a consid erable amoun t of teachers t hat alread y have a second languag e, but having a second l anguage and teachi ng a second language are two completely different things. So we’re doing that. About five months ago I opened up the language institute at the University of Calgary. Quite sim ply, what this is is a research institute within the University of Calgary to look at how to teach language, to look at dif ferent types of languages, to fi nd out how children learn from languages, and, Mr.

Cha ir, through to a ll the Members of the Legislative Assembly, I would certainly encourage the hon. members to tour that institute. It’s very, very impressive. There is cuttin g-edge research that is being done there, and what they have told me – and realistically I’m only as good as what they tell me – is that it is absolutely a one hundred per cent world-class structure and institution. So we look forward to getting that. The hon. member has as ked some excellent questions about an initiative that I personally have taken a lot of stake in. It’s some- thing that Albe rtans want.

It’s something that I wish I had when I went to school. The hon. member wished he had it when he went to school, and I think that’s what I hear all over Alberta when I talk about this. The Chair: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Mill Woods. Dr. Massey: Thank you. Again just a coupl e of questions on the same topic, Mr. Chairman. The resources in the budget for technol- ogy – the minist er mentions video con ferencing, and video conferencing req uires so me fai rly s ophisticated technological hardware and software.

The minister is aware that there have been questions in the House the last couple of weeks about the costs of SuperNet, schools getting hooked up to it, being able to maintain it, having money to pay the monthly hookup fees. Is there money in the budget? Will th ere be money that will allow schools to gain that equipment and to be hooked to the system? Right now we hear from a lot of p eople that ev ergreening of the ir equipme nt is just not possible. So is the minister happy that there’s money in the budget that will make that possible? The Chair: The hon. minister. Dr. Oberg: Thanks, Mr. Chairman.

The hon. member has asked a couple of questions. First of all, the costs of SuperNet are included in my budget. There’s $11 million that is specifically set aside to pay for the cost of the broadband access. Also , I w ill add that included in the funding formul a the line cos ts for Supe rNet are enveloped. Quite simply, the reason that they are enveloped is that I did not want the cost of hooking up to SuperNet to be a detriment to school jurisdictions doing it or not doing it. The SuperNet will be there.

The SuperNet will be in every school, and a significant portion of the costs are going to be borne by the government. I will say that there have been questions in the House about the cost of SuperNet, and it’s my understanding that for many jurisdictions you’re actually going to see a decrease in what their line costs are as to what they’re paying today. Another interesting point is something that we’ve been working on, Mr. Chair, w hich i s everg reening. The whol e idea behi nd SuperNet is not j ust to provide broadband wavelength. SuperNet gives us opportunities that are actually going to be quite incredible.

What we’re looking at doing is setting up a server-based system so that what we will do is put all the programs, basically the programs that we need, all the resources that we need, on the server. There are two advantages to that. First of all, we have the ability to review all of the resources and all of the programs that go on the server, so we c an be assured that when our s tudents in the school access the SuperNet server – and in just a second I’ll get to how they access it – all of these resources have been prescreened by my staff, by Alberta Learning staff, so that it is good, high-quality resources.

What we are in effect doing is setting up an Intranet as opposed to the Internet. The other ad vantage, Mr. Chair, directly to the server-based system is that we can utilize the economy of scale of all the students in the province to get a better price. We have about 580,000 K to 12 students. We have about another 110,000, 120, 000 postsecondary students. We can use those 700,000 students to get a better economy of scale on programs. If you were to go out and had 10,000 users, you are not going to get as good a deal as if you had 700,000 users in order to purchase programs. So we’re looking at that. Lastly, Mr.

Chair, t he most e xciting part about a server-based system is what the hon. member has raised, which is the evergreen- ing. We will have the ability to sign contracts that would include – and what I’m setting down as a minimum is 10 years of evergreen- ing. So when it comes to programs, when it comes to resources, it will be 10 years, but more importantly what we will be doing is at the actual school site they will not nee d a computer per se. What they will ne ed is a sc reen, a m onitor, and a c ard-reading type of system or some variation of a system that will take them into their server.

The other advantage of this is that the evergreening cost to the school district should be almost nil because all you’re going to have to replace are the monitors and the keyboards. So that’s what we’re looking at, Mr. Chair, and albeit we do not have anything firm yet, we are looking at putting out an R FP this month or next month to actually attempt to do a pilot project on this exact concept. We have a concept like this in the Chinook’s Edge school division, but the problem has actually been that we are ahead of the technology companies.

The technology to use the broadband capability on the server-based system is just coming out now. We feel that the technology is out there. We obviously are going to test it in a geographic pilot project, and hopefully there will be more to that as the RFP is put out. We have not finished the RFP. It will however be put out within the next month to six weeks. The Chair: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Mill Woods. Dr. Massey: Yes. Tha nks, Mr. Ch airman. Oh, I should have mentioned that on the IOUs I don’t consider us wiped out and even. He’s not getting off that easy.

I’d like to ask if we will be s eeing as a result of the L earning Commission a performance measure with respect to class size. It’s one that I’ve se en elsewhere, where states have had not a per for- mance measure but a reporting, for instan ce, of the num ber of kindergarten students tha t were in classe s, the perc entage of kindergarten classes that were over 17, the percentage of gra de 1 classes that were over 17. It seems to me, as I’ve talked to parents and heard from parents across the province, that that is something that really is of high interest to them and a major concern.

I think that next September there are going to be a lot of parents who are going to be watching very carefully, expecting that their children will be in smaller classes, and somewhere down the road getting into the

Alberta Hansard April 22, 2004998 area that was recommended by the Learning Commission. It seems to me that the kind of reporting that we’ve had of averages doesn’t do that. There has to be something that really gives a better picture because of what happens with averages. 3:30 The second with respect to that was the reports that this budget is not going to be adequate for progress to be made with reduction to class size and the chair of the Learning Commission indicating that the mo nies that t hey were recommending are a bove and bey ond volume and rate in creases that would no rmally be a part of t he budget.

Is the m inister conf ident that w e are g oing to see, i n September at least, movement in the direction of the commission? Given the mult iyear projections that the com mission made, is the minister confident that in three o r four years we will actually have reached the standards that they have put out? The Chair: The hon. minister. Dr. Oberg: Thanks, Mr. Chair.

First of all, when it comes t o the performance measures, starting in November of this upcoming year there will be a requirement for all school jurisdictions to have an accountability profile t hat would be given out to the constituents, that will b e made p ublic, wh ich will inc lude class size. It will include absolutely how they spend all of their money, administrative costs. All of these things will be required to be made p ublic and, indeed, not just made publi c but given to all the constituents.

The key – the key – to accounta bility i s transpar ency, and we have attempted to mak e the whol e funding s ystem as trans parent as possible. There are two excellent, excellent things in the Learning Commis- sion, but the unfortunate

part is that these two are a little bit at odds with each o ther. The first one is the whole idea about class size, about the reporting of class size and how we should try and get down in the province to the averages that were iterated in the Learning Commission. The second is the funding f ormula. What w e’re attempting to do is reconcile those two differences. First of all, Mr. Chair, the funding formula gives ultimate – ultimate – flexi bility to t he school boar ds. In the ne w funding formula effective September 1, there are only three things that are enveloped.

As I mentioned previously, there is the SuperNet hookup line charges , which are env eloped. The re’s a s tudent health initiative, and there’s the Alberta initiative for school improvement. Everything else, or roughly 95 per cent of the dollars, is going to be flexible to the school jurisdictions. So, Mr. Chair, a type of answer to the ques tion is: if the school boards chose to use that money in a flexible way in a fashion other than class sizes, could th ey do it? Yes, they ca n. Under the new formula they do have the ability to utilize that.

However, what we’re doing is forc ing the sc hool boards t o be transparent in how they spend the dollars. They have to be transparent in what the dollars are used for, such as number of teachers, administration, class sizes. All of these things have to be given out to the public. So there is a little bit of difference in the Learning Commission recommendations and how these are going to work. The key thing that I talked to the school boa rds about is t hat, reali stically, this funding formula entails a great amount of trust.

With that flexibility comes a great amount of trust that the school boards are going to put the money where it’s needed. I believe in local autonomy. I believe in school boards. I believe that they have the ability, that they know better what is happening in the classrooms, in many cases, than my department and, ce rtainly, than I do, and that they will go ahead and do it. But there’s a huge amount of trust there, and, Mr. Chairman, if politics enters into this, we’re going to be in a s evere amount of trouble.

T herefore, the accountability piece of the funding formula is going to have to force the school boards to report to the general constituents about what they are doing, about wher e they’re spending dollars, where their dollars are actually, 100 per cent, being spent. This is going to cause a specific problem, and I don’t mean to pick out any specific school boards, but one of the great attributes of the Edmonton public school system is that they give all the money out in a very decentralized fashion.

One of the problems that is going to occur with the flexibility of the funding formula is exactly reconcil- ing the accountability behind those dollars, and we are attempting to do this in a reporting mechanism. I will say to the hon. member that this is a work in progress, and this funding formula is something that we’re very, very concerned about on th e accou ntability side.

The Al berta School Boards Association has assured us that they are up to the task, and we will be working closely with the School Boards Association to e nsure that that accountability and that transparency are there so that everyone knows h ow the doll ars are being spent , the am ount of dollars, all of these other issues. Mr. Chair, as you fully well know, to me transparency is the best political tool that is out there. The Chair: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar. Mr. MacDonald: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I also have questions, obviously, at this tim e for the hon. minist er.

It’s a pleasure t o participate in the deb ates this afternoon on the bu dget for Alberta Learning. When I talk to parents about the L earning C ommission – and I talked to the hon. Member for Edmonton-Mill Woods – they compare it to a Sears or Eaton’s catalogue at Christmastime. It’s a wish list. Unfortunately, there doesn’t appear to be money to back up so many of the recommendations that are needed, and I would certainly hope that the department and the government can make the financial commitments that are necessary to f und adequately the recommendations of the Learning Commission report.

Are we going to see class sizes go down next fall, Mr. Chairman? Unfortunately, I don’t think so. I routinely visit classes, particularly in elementary sc hools, where ther e a re in exc ess of 30 children, sometimes 34, 35 children, and they’re split between grades 5 and 6. The teacher literally has to have a whistle around his or her neck like a hockey referee, and the whistle has to be blown if there’s a stop in the action. I know that there have been strides made to improve this situation, but those strides, in my opinion, are not long enough.

Now, I have a question, and I would really appreciate a clarifica- tion from the minister. I believe that is all that’s required in this regard. In r egard to students w ith special needs or s pecial-needs funding, I was talking to a constituent who has a child in a junio r high, in grade 7, and this constituent is particularly concerned that there will be no special-needs funding for her child once that child leaves grade 9. The hon. Member for Edmonton-Mill Woods has wisely advised me that, well, there are programs at L.Y. Cairns for special-needs students.

What other alternatives or avenues does that parent have, once that child g raduates from junior high, to further that child’s education? If you could e xplain that, I would be very grateful. Thank you. The Chair: The hon. minister. Dr. Oberg: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. The hon. member has two sets of questions there. First of all, the money for the Learning

April 22, 2004 Alberta Hansard 999 Commission. Included in the Learning Commission’s recommenda- tions was roughly an increase of about $600 million over the next five year s. What wa s not included, as the hon. Me mber f or Edmonton-Mill Woods pointed out, was the cost f or increases in salaries, things like that. So it’s $600 million over five years. What you see in this budget to the K to 12 system is an increase budget over b udget, r ecognizing that we did put in an ex tra $90 million, that we did put in an ex tra $30 million for operations and maintenance. Budget over budget is a $ 250 million inc rease.

In three years I believe it’s something like $730 million. I don’t think I need to look; it’s pretty close to that. So the monies are there. 3:40 Are we com mitted? Absolute ly. T here are some e xcellent recommendations, Mr. Chair. When I set up the Learning Commis- sion, I did not set up the Learning Commission to give us recommen- dations that we could not fulf ill. I did not s et up the L earning Commission to be able t o put the Le arning Commission’s recom- mendations on the shelf never to be opened again.

That is the deal that I made with those people on the Learning Commission, and I believe that that is the deal that we have followed through on. Is there going to be that $600 million in the first year? No, there isn’t. It is not going to be in the first year. Is it going to be in the five years? Yes. Are we going to implement the recommendations over five years? Yes. Are some going to be implemented today? Absolutely. Some already have been implemented today. Are there others that are going to be implemented tomorrow and the day after? You bet. Mr.

Cha ir, we’re working hard, but more importantly I really feel that we’re working smartly, and that’s something that’s absolutely important to do. With regard to the member’s direct question about special-needs funding, the way special-need s funding is given out to the school boards is on a pro-rated number of students. For example, I’ll give a little bit of history if the hon. member will tolerate this. Initially, we were putting in money for as sessments, so eve ry student, before t hey received the severe disability funding, would have to have a thousand-dollar assessment.

In essence, you would have a thousand-dollar assessment so that they could ge t $13,000 extra in funding. Obviously, for the principals and the school boards it was the ir best ef fort to put thr ough that thes e kids w ould be assessed as severe special needs. First of all, I don’t like the label of severe special needs. I think there are people that have children that have to be individualized when it comes to their educational plans. Secondly, I just absolutely cannot tolerate the waste of a thousand dollars on an assessment when you don’t need it.

We were having situations, through to the hon. member, where a child was blind, and every three ye ars they were hav ing to have a thousand-dollar assessment to determine if the child was still blind or deaf. So we cancelled the need for the assessment, and we’ve pro-rated it. We’ve taken the last five to seven years of a school jurisdiction’s growth in special needs and simply pro-rated it. If the school board feels that their pro-rate number is wrong, they hav e the ability to appeal to us, and ac tually, Mr.

Chair, i n the firs t yea r that this occurred, there w ere only about two or three sc hool boards tha t actually put in an appea l. Unfortuna tely f or the Mem ber for Strathmore-Brooks, two of tho se appeal s came from, you got it, Strathmore and Brooks. But we attempt to do as accurate as we can an approach for that. So, to the me mber, the parent’s child will s till receive special- needs funding. How the s chool board chooses to put that out into their school programs is up to the individual school board. In many cases, for example, they have specialized program s in specialized locations.

In other cases – and I don’t want to get into the actual disability that the c hild has – the attempt is there to tailor the program to the individual child, to the individual child’s disability and then put the child in the best location for that child. The parent does have the ability and, in fact, the necessity to sign off the individua l program plan on eac h and ever y child w ith disabilities. So the parent will have to si gn and say that this is the best place f or the child to be ; this is the program that’s going to occur.

I expect and I hope t hat these parents will hold the sc hool boards and the teachers and the school system accountable to ensure that that individual program plan is followed through as written out, as they’ve signed on the dotted line. Those dollars are still there. They follow right through. I can’t get into specif ically what prog ram w ould be best f or this child because I don’t know the child, I don’t know the disabilit y, but Edmonton public does an exceptional job when it comes to disabili- ties, and I would give it to you that they’re probably the best people to answer that question. The Chair: The hon.

Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar. Mr. MacDonald: Thank you. To the hon. minister, I appreciate that answer. Now, does that s et of rule s also appl y to mild s pecial-needs students as well which are included in the per pupil grant? Yes? Dr. Oberg: Yes, it does. The individual program plan needs to be in place for the mild to moderate special-needs students as well. Again, I’ll reiterate a little bit. Mil d and moderate: I don’t like using that definition. The problem is that – and I’ll use the terminol- ogy – many mildly disabled students can improve and come out of that category.

The unfortunate part about our school system is that once they’re labelled “mild” or labelled “moderate,” that label tends to stick with these children right through the school system. I don’t agree with that. I don’t agree with the lab elling of stude nts. I don’t a gree with how that is done. That’s one of the reasons why we changed the way the funding was put in. It drove me crazy, Mr. Chair, when I would go to a school and they would point out the code 43 students. They wouldn’t use the child’s name.

They would say, “Here’s a code 43,” as oppos ed to “ Here’s Johnny” or “Here’s Sarah” or something. “He’s code 43; he’s code 44,” and so on. Drove me nuts. So, Mr. Chair, that’s one of the reasons why we did that. Again, it takes a little while to move through the system, but it is something that we’re attempting to do. The individual program plan is in place for mild and moderately disabled students through to grade 12. The Chair: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar. Mr. MacDonald: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Now, I’m concerned about the high cost of tuition fees at universities.

Last year in your annual report 2 002-2003 – an d I’m going to look f orward to checking this a litt le later in t he summer when your next annual report comes out – under the primary reasons listed on page 21 “for not taking education or training (percentages and rank) is a category simply stating t hat it “cos ts too muc h.” In 1998-99 5.9 pe r cent indicated that that w as the reas on for not ta king educ ation or training: it costs too much. This went up in steady steps to 2001- 2002 when 11.3 per cent of individuals stated that it costs too much to take any further education or training.

It went down significantly in 2002-03, actually, to 8 per cent. So in 2002-03, the last time we had access to this information, 8 per cent of students could not afford to take further education or training.

Alberta Hansard April 22, 20041000 In light of the fact that we have since put tuition f ees up again, what number does the minister expect to se e? Hopefully, it’s not going to be anywhere like 1 in 10 students has financial reasons as a barrier to furthering their education. What steps are we going to take to reduce t his signif icantly in lig ht of the fact th at we’ve increased tuition fees? The Chair: The hon. minister. Dr. Oberg: Thanks, Mr. Chair. First of all, it’s nice to see a drop in that number from 11 per cent to 8 per cent.

The one comment that I will make on that is that the way the question is worded, this is the perception of being able to go to school. So it’s perceived that they don’t have eno ugh mone y, an d th at’s why t hey’re not going to school. I will take this opportunity to talk a little bit about the student loan program. Since I’ve been minister, the stud ent loan program has increased by anywhere between 50 and 60 per cent in the last five years. It’s gone up quite significantly. We’re now at a time when we have $97 million that is spent each and every year to go out to Alberta students.

That’s just from Alberta; that isn’t from the federal component of student loans. So one of the criticisms that I have of my department is actually not in how it r uns the student loan program, because if you talk to students anywhere in Canada – and our students say that as well – they will tell you that our student loan program is by far the best of anywhere in Canada. Just by way of advertisement, we are the only jurisdiction that has inc reased loan limits in I believe the last 10 years.

The res t of the s tudent loans, t he rest of the provin ces ar e actually tied to the federal government, and the federal government has not increas ed its loan rates, a lthough thankf ully it i s talking about increasing them this year. 3:50 The other key component, Mr. Chair, is our remission program. I think everyone here who has gone through – and at least I have – university with a s tudent loan is well a ware of the rem ission program. We’ve taken the remission program one step further.

We have increased the amount of loan s avail able to a st udent, but we have kept the amount that you have to pay back co nstant. We’ve kept that amount that you have to pay back at $5,000. Since I’ve b een min ister, the amo unt of student loans that a student would be eligible for if he was at the maximum amount has increased from around a little over $10,000 to t his year where we increased it another $400 to around 11 and a half thousand, $11,400. Mr. Chair, t he amount that you pay back, though