LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, 15 May, 1987. Time - 10:00 a.m. OPENING PRAYER by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER, Hon. M. Phillips: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Burrows. MR. C. SANTOS: Madam Spea ker, I beg to present the Second Report of the Comm ittee on Economic Development. MR. CLERK, W. Remnant: Your Committee met on Thursd ay, May 14, 1987, in Room 255 of the Legislative Building to consider the Annual Report of Manfor Ltd. Mr. Murray 0.

Ha rvey, Chairman of the Board, provided such information as was required by members of the commit tee with respect to the business and the Annual Report of Manfor Ltd. Your commit tee examined the Annual Report of Manfor Ltd. for the period ended December 31, 19 86, and adopted the same as presented. All of which is respectfu lly submit ted. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Burrows. MR. C. SANTOS: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for lnkster, that the report of the commit tee be received. MOTION presented and carried.

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Thank you, Madam Speaker . I'm pleased to table the Supplementary Information for Legisla tive Review for Manitoba Culture, Heritage and Recreati on. MADAM SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. R. PENNER introduced, by leave, Bill No. 33,

An Act to amend The Registry Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur l'enr egistrement foncier; and, by leave, Bill No. 34,

An Act to amend The Real Property Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les biens reels. HON. M. SMITH introduced, by leave, Bill No. 35,

An Act to amend The Child and Family Services Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les services a l'enfant et a la famille. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MADAM SPEAKER: Before moving to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where we have 15 students from Daniel Mcintyre Collegiate under the direction of Mrs. Emily Sinosich. The school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Ellice. We have 40 students from Grade 9 from the Jefferson High School under the direction of Mr. Penner, and the school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Kildonan.

On behalf of all the members, we welcome you to the Legislature this morning. ORAL QUESTIONS Crown Investments - spending authority by Minister MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Earlier this week, the Ann ual Report of the Department of Crown Investments was tabled in the Legislature and, among other things, it lists the Crown corporations under the purview of the Department of Crown Investments as including the Manitoba Liquor Con trol Comm ission, Manfor , Manitoba Hydro, Manitoba Energy Authority.

My question to the Premier is: Will the new Minister - super-Minister - of Crown Investments, the Member for Concordia, now be required to give final approval on any capital expenditure decisions by Manitoba Hydro, or any Hydro sales agreements which come under the purview of the Manitoba Energy Authority? Will it require his authority and final approval to finalize these items? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, matters pertaining to general policy application, matters pertai ning to capital outlay will be a responsibility of the Minister and there'll be further detail, I can advise, presented by way of further legislation in respect to outlining the responsibilities of Crown Investments' operation later during the Session, but the general overall directi on of Crown corporations, the coordination, general guidelines, so far as the carrying on of Crown co rporations, fall within the general ambit of responsibility of the Minister of Crown Invest ments' coordination role. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, my further question to the Premier: Does that mean that the Minister of 2084

Friday, 15 May, 1987 En ergy, now responsible for Manitoba Hydro, will have to go to the new super-M inister of Crown Investments - the Member for Concordia to obtain final appr oval on export sales agreements, for instance. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, if the Leader of the Opposition is referring to the Hydro sales, the Hydro sales are not app roved until such time as they are processed through Cabinet as a whole. And the Minister responsible for Energy, responsible for the Manitoba Hydro, brings his recommendation to Cabi net; it is Cabinet that assumes the responsibility pertaining to Hydro sales as a whole.

Minister of Crown Investments - role of MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, what then will be the role of the Minister of the Crown corporations, the super-Minis ter of Crown corporations in that process? If he is responsible for Manitoba Energy Authority who negotiates the agreeme nts, and Manitoba Hydro who presumably carry out the agreements, what will his role be in presenting these agreements to Cabinet? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speake r, as I indicated, the legislation, all the details pertaining to the responsibility, will be brought forth in considerable detail later on during the Session.

In fact the Leader of the Opposition, at tha t time, will have opportunity to debate the legislation and the outlining of responsibil ities that will be the respo nsibili ty provided to the Mi ni ster responsibl e for Crown Investments un der tha t legislation. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, is the Premier indicating that although this new super-Min ister has signed the annual report that his responsibilities haven't yet been defined? We don't know what he is intending to do until the report and, until the Estimates come forward, we won't know what he's doing. HON. H.

PAWLEY: I suspect that even after the legislation comes forward that the Leader of the Opposition still won't know what the responsibilities are insofar as the Minister of Crown Investments. As I ind icated before, it will be overall responsibility for overall direction insofar as the Crown corporations, in general, including the coordination. The detail is a matter that will be provided to the House as a whole for debate, for discussi on, during the course of this Session. Crown Investments - member from Board of Manitoba Hydro and Manitoba Energy Authority MR. G.

FILMON: Well, Madam Speaker, given that the Premier doesn't know what he's doing, I guess it's understandable that members on this side won't be able to know what the super-Minister is supp osed to be doing in his responsibility. I wonder, Madam Speaker, if the Premier can indicate whether or not Crown Investments will have a member on the board of Manitoba Hydro and on the board of the Manitoba Energy Authority to exercise some overall jurisdiction and responsibility for these Crown agencies as a result of this new structure. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, as I indicated, there will be legislation brought forth.

We'll be dealing with the detail of that legislation. I understand the Leader of the Opposition is waving around a 1985- 1986 report, Madam Speak er, and I find that somewhat surprising, that he is waving around a 1985-86 report in respect to an initiative that has just been ann ounced a few months ago, and atte mpting to suggest tha t some way or other the annual report relates to the recent initiative. Minister of Crown corporations - role of MR. G. FILMON: That's precisely the point. The super­ Minister, the Member for Concordia, has signed this annual report.

He has listed, under his jurisdiction, all of the Crown agencies that I referred to, the Manitoba Hydro and the Manitoba Energy Authority . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. Does the honourable member have a question? Question period is not a time for debate. MR. G. FILMON: Is the Premier trying to tell us that, despite the fact that he signed the report, that he's listed responsibility for all these Crown agencies, that the Premier still hasn't decided what he is responsible for? HON. H.

PAWLEY: It's obviously Friday morning and the Leader of the Opposition is very short of questions, in that he is getting all fanned up because of his inabil ity, obviously, to come up with something that is meaningful. Madam Speaker, I have indica ted very, very clearly, again for the umpteenth time - and I thought ther e was some rule against repetition - that the detail in full will be brought out during the process of introduction of the legislation, clearly outlining the responsibilities of the Minister responsible for Crown Investments.

Short of what I have ind icated already in general terms, overall direction of the Crown corporations' coor dination, insofar as Crown corporations, monitoring of Crown corporations, are all responsibility of the Min ister of Crown Investments. The detail which is massive will be brought forth later during this Session. Crown Investments Annual Report - signed by Minister MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, if, as the Premier has indicated, the Min ister was not yet responsible for this department, as of this annual report, why did he sign it? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Crown Investments. HON. G.

DOER: I believe this is the First Annual Report of Crown Investments made to this Legislature. It was 2085

Friday, 15 May, 1987 prepared for the'85-86 year, Madam Speaker. However, it was presented to this House when the portfolio changed from the former Minister. Madam Speaker, I'm absolutely shocked that the members opposite are making such a big deal about Crown corporations, when Barbara Mc Dougall yesterday announced the $208 million loss in the holding company in Ottawa with the federal Crown corporations under the private sector experts.

Ma dam Sp eak er, we ha ve a number of reform measu res in consideration which we plan on bringing forward in due time and making the appropriate announc ements when we're prepared to do so. AIDS -conflicting numbers MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River East. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Health. Recently in Health Estimates, the Minister ind icated that there were 80 Manitobans infected with the AIDS virus. On Monda y, Madam Speak er, I attended an AIDS symposium at the University of Manitoba, and I want to at this point commend Dr.

Fast and her department for the excellent job that they did in providing full and factual information regarding AIDS. But, Ma dam Speaker , Glen Murray , the Educatio n Coordinator from the Vil la ge Clinic ind icated tha t there are 160 Manitobans with ARC, which is AIDS Related Complex, in the province right now, and that's not including those that are carrying the virus without symptoms. Can the Minister tell this House whose figures are right? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Ma dam Speak er, I'll have to take that as notice. MRS. B.

MITCHELSON: Will the Minister investigate this discrepancy and inform this House why the Village Clinic would have more information about positive carriers that has not been passed on to the Department of Health? Madam Speak er, obviously if the Village Clinic has information that there are 160 Manitobans with ARC, AIDS Related Complex, they must have tested positive. MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have a question? AIDS -reporting system MRS. B.

MITCHELSON: While the Minister is taking those questions as notice, I would like him to investigate and find out how well the reporting system is working, Ma dam Speaker , if the Villa ge Clinic ha s more information than the Department of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Yes. AIDS -male prostitute infected MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Speaker, at that same AIDS Awareness Week Symposium that was held at the University, one of the city councillors indicated to that convention that there was a male prostitute infected with AIDS who was still exercising his skills for hire.

Madam Speaker, has the Minister had an opportunity, since Dr. Fast was there and heard that accusation made, has the Minister had an opportunity to investigate whether, indeed, there is a male prostitute with AIDS still working this general area of the city? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Ma dam Speaker, there have been many , many rumours unfortunately when we're dealing with AIDS, and that has not been of any benefit at all; but, yes, this is being investigated, nobody seems to know where tha t comes from, tha t is being investigated at this time. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Madam Speaker, in a new question, I almost hesitate to quote from the Winnipeg Free Press, since members of the government so often say it is not factual in its reporting, but . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. It's also not in order to quote extracts from newspapers as an opening to Oral Questions. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Madam Speaker, given that at the AIDS Awareness Week Clinic, a councillor indicated that the Department of Health, the department this Minister is responsible for, indicated they had knowledge of a male prostitute still actively engaged in prostitution, is the Minister now saying that he has no knowledge of that and the department has no knowledge of that?

Would the Minister clarify that statement, and indicate clearly to the House, whether indeed there is a male prostitute with AIDS still working the streets, infect ing Manitoba ns, potentially with a killer disease that can cost us $1 00,000 per year, as much as our firefighting effort costs us per day? MADAM SPEAKER: May I also remind the honourable member that it's a member's duty to ascertain the truth of any statement before he brings it to the attent ion of the House. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Madam Speak er, would the Minister undertake his duty as Minister responsible for Health and find out wheth er, indeed, his department has knowledge of a male prostitute with AIDS still working his trade? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mada m Speaker, maybe I'll try to answer this one in French. I just finished saying that I'v e asked this to be investigated. For your information, if you must know, at eleven o' clock I'm meeting with Dr. Fast, Dr. Mac Donald, the Director of Cad ha m Lab., the Dep artment of Education and so on, to straig hten out 2086

Friday, 15 May, 1987 and get as much information as possible , and I'll repo rt the ... AIDS - reportable disease MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Speaker, now that the government has made AIDS a reportable disease, could the Minister indicate to the House, what provisions the new regulations, making AIDS a reportable disease, have to deal with a male prostitute with AIDS who refuses to curtail his sexual activity? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker , I don 't think that changed that at all. As I say, I want to investigate to see if there's any truth in that at all and then we'll deal with it.

Communities Economic Development Fund - information from Minister MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I have a question to the super-Minister, Madam Speaker, responsible for Crown Investments. Due to the fact the Premier indicated that the Minister was responsible for the ... POINT OF ORDER MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: A point of order , Madam Speaker. It is not proper in this House to refer to a member or a Minister other than by their appropriate title . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General has a point of order.

The Honourable Member for Arthur . MR. J. DOWNEY: Madam Speaker, for the non-so­ super Attorney-General. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order, order please . The Honourable Member for Arthur knows that it is not proper to refer to Ministers by other than their proper titles. The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J.

DOWNEY: Madam Speaker , to the Minister responsible for Crown Investments, who has yet not been given any direction by the Premier, my question to the Minister is: In view of the fact that the First Minister indicated one of his responsibilities was to provide information dealing with Crown Investments, and that the Communities Economic Development Fund is one of those Crown corporations which falls within the purview of his responsibilities; in view of the fact that the Minister of Northern Affairs was responsible for the provision of a $350,000 highly questionable loan to a very good fri end of his a month after the last election; an d that the Community of Economic Development Committee Report has not been recalle d to the committee stag e because we're waiting on information , information which is pertinent to the allocation of that loan to the friend of the Minister of Northern Affairs , will the Minister responsible for Crown Investments provide that information as quickly as possible so we can get on with the review of the Community Economic Development Fund , or are they going to continue to be a cover-up?

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Crown Investments . HON. G. DOER: Madam Speaker, I thank the member for the question . We are working very diligently in some of the areas that we feel are important to our very important Crown corporations that have been doing an excellent job in serving Manitobans with some of the lowest utility rates in the country , providing thousands and thousands of highly skilled jobs in this province.

We are looking at the future investment realities with those billion dollar operations to reform some of the areas that we feel are necessary to meet the challenges of the Nineties and into the next century. Madam Speaker, we are working very closely together with the Premier on many of the priorities that we see are important for the future . We do not have a slavish position as the federal Conservative Party that lost , not only $208 million, but is giving away Crown corporations on fire sales to the private sector at ridiculous rates. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please . HON. G.

DOER: Madam Speaker , I'm sorry that I raised the $208 million . They don 't like to know about the $208 million loss of the Federal Conservative Government. Madam Speaker, just to complete the answer to the four or five questions that the honourable member asked , the Premier has clearly indicated , at all times , that the Crowns still remain responsible to an individual Minister who will account to the public , and to this House, and I have great confidence in the Minister responsible for the fund to provide the information when it's appropriate to get some .

Gov't policy - review of re appointment of family members MR. J. DOWNEY : Madam Speaker , my question is to the First Minister. Madam Speaker, in view of the fact the First Minister yesterday was so ready to use Dorothy Dobbie, the President of the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce, as a defence in a policy that he is, as a government , hiring family members , or appointing family members of his Cabinet and that she is iri disagreement with him in that matter, the question to the First Minister is: Is he going to do, as the President of the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce recommended, review the policy of his 2087

Friday, 15 May, 1987 government in the appointment of family members to boards and commissions, as such? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H.

PAWLEY: I'm glad the Member for Arthur has raised this que stion, because I am - as I think all fair­ minded Manitobans are - extremely disappointed with the innuendo, the mudslinging that has been taking place in this Legislatu re, including that yesterday by the Member for Fort Garry who refused to provide details in this Chamber when chal lenged to do so, refused to provide details, at first in the corridor outside when he left this Cham ber, but later volunteered detail to the daily newspaper in the City of Winnipeg, giving three exampl es, Ma dam Speak er. I find this abh orrent.

First, Madam Speak er, that some way or other there was a conflict of interest, or something untoward, involved in the spouse of the Minister of Community Services, appointed to a board at the reco mmendation of the Manitoba Teachers' Socie ty, which had the responsi bility to make a recommendation in regard to this particular board serving for $1 a year. Madam Speak er, no stipend from the Province of Manito ba, the recomm endation of the Manitoba Teachers' Society.

The daughter of the Minister of Community Services serving on an arm's length board, not receiving any remuneration from the Government of the Province of Manitoba but, in fact, receiving remuneration from the Law Society of the Province of Manitoba.

Thir d ly, Ma da m Sp eaker , the most de spicable example, the son-in-law of the Minister of Community Services example that was given by the Member for Fort Ga rry outsid e th is Ch amber , suggesting tha t because a grant had been provided by the Department of Educ ation to the Winnipeg School Division, and because some of that money resulted in a program which benefited the particular school and the students, of which the son-in-law of the Minister of Community Services happens to be the principal, that there's something untoward, something that is a conflict of interest.

Madam Speaker , I find this despicable that the childr en of the inner city should be jeopardized, should be penalized, simply because the principal of their school happens to be the son-in-law of the Minister of Community Services. Ma da m Speak er, I'm also di sapp ointed in the comments alleged to have been made by the current president of the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce.

Surely when she sent her letter, her mailing to the members of this Chamber about conflict of interest, about innuendo, surely she is not suggesting today that matters such as this, not involving remuneration to the individuals involved, not involving decision-making on the part of government, is some way or other a matter of conflict of interest. Let me tell you, the president of the Winni peg Chamber of Commerce, as far as I'm concerned, has less credibility today than she had yesterday in providing support to those kinds of allegations. MR. J.

DOWNEY: Ma dam Speaker , a question to the First Minister dealing with the policy that was referred to, dealing with the policy, and the question is: Is he going to review it? That's the question. Is he going to review the policy dealing with the appointment of members of Cabinet Ministers' or caucus members' families to gov ernment or government-conne cted agencies? HON. H. PAWLEY: I see the Opposition is still digging around in the mud, Madam Speaker. Are they proposing that there's some sort of policy that should be reviewed as a result of the responses that I've provided?

If there is, Madam Speak er, maybe we'd better be looking at a policy which has been followed, of fairness on the part of this government, whether there's been spouses of members opposite; where there's been brothers of members opposite; where there's been childr en of members opposite that have been hired to provide service to the Province of Manitoba by this government during the past two years, as well. Careerstart and STEP Programs - restoration of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. Order please, order please. The Honourable Member for River Heights has the floor.

If members want to indulge in private conversations, they can do so elsewhere. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the First Minister. In the earlier part of the Session, Madam Speak er, I made reference to the fact that Careerstart monies had been cut from our universities, thereby denying uni versity students job opportunities at our three universities here in Winnipeg and in Brandon. And I have subsequently learned that there will also be cuts to the STEP Program which will, in fact, prevent young students from working for Legal Aid.

I would like to ask the First Minister what he intends to do to restore these jobs which are so important and valuabl e in terms of work experience for those numerous students who should have been working at our universities and for Legal Aid. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Spea ker, the Minister of Education I'm sure will provide considerable detail to the Member for River Heights, except to say that this government's approach insofar as Careerstart and STEP and assistance to the students of the universities in obtaining job opportunities during the summer, including assistance to universities by way of grant increases this year, really takes second spot to no other provincial government in the countr y.

Take into consideration, as well, the very substantial cut, by way of federal funding, insofar as student employment is concerned in the Province of Manitoba; and also it's respecting the fact tha t there has been a significant reduction in youth unemployment in the Province of Manitoba this year as opposed to last year. 2088

Friday, 15 May, 1987 STEP Program - cuts to NOP and Tory caucuses MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Ma dam Speaker , with a supp lementary question to the First Minister. Since his government is going to reduce student employment in such important hiring areas, is it being done at least in a fair appli cation as to these cuts? Specifical ly, has there been similar cuts to the STEP Program to the NOP and Tory caucuses? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. J. STORIE: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The member makes reference to cuts. Ma dam Speak er, the criteria of the program have changed.

I believe the Minister of Emp loyment Services has indica ted that, despite those ch anges, the prospects for students getting employment this summer are probably better than ever, certainly better than in any other province in Canada. And with specific reference to the changes that have affected institutions, I understand that the University of Manitoba , for example, is employing, or about to employ, some 235 students this year through the Careerstart Progra m, I believe. So, Madam Speak er, the opportunities exist.

The fact tha t the criteria have shifted some of the opportunities from institutions who ma y, for their own reasons, have decided not to partici pate because of a requirement that there be a contribution, the fact is that the private sector, the small business sector , which has created a good deal of the empl oyment over the past few years, will be taking up some of the slack. STEP Program - job losses MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: A final supple mentary to the Minister of Education.

Can the Minister tell the House how many job opportunities have been lost to the STEP Program, and if any of those will be in the Legislature of Manitoba? HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speak er, I'm not the Minister responsible for the STEP Program, but I will certainly take that as notice and I'm sure that the Minister of Emplo yment Services will be getting back to the Member for River Heights. Land Transfer Tax - removal of temporary exemption MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I direct my question to the Acting Minister of Finance.

Today , Ma dam Speak er, yet another tax-grab measure takes effect, that being the Land Transfer Tax, taking $1 0 million out of the economy this year. Madam Speaker, the Budget and, hopeful ly, you will allow me to quote one sentence out of the Budget. Page 08, under the Land Transfer Tax, says in very bold type: "A temporary exemption from the Land Transfer Tax will be extended to farmers who purch ase farm property for continued use in farming." My question to the Acting Minister: When will the government be contem plating removing the temporary exemption afforded to land transfers in the farming community?

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Indust ry , Trade and Technol ogy. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Madam Speaker . I know of no time limit for it. As I understand the polic y of the government with respect to taxation of farm land transfers, it is that farm land transferred - to be continued to be farmed - will not be affected by the tax, which of course means tha t for farmers in Manitoba, which the Member for Morris forgot to mention, transfer taxes will be down considerably from where they were before we made the change.

He also forgets to mention that for many ordinary Manitoba ns with housing of $70,000, $80,000 and less there's actually a decrease in the total amount of transfer costs as a result of this change. I really do think that it's important to note tha t for ordinary Manitobans, for homeowners, and for farmers, ther e will be, in many instances, decreases rather than increases. MR. C. MANNESS: Madam Spea ker, the budget writer put the word "temporary" in at the direction of the government. I was just asking for a clarification of what the word "temporary" meant.

My question, Madam Speaker: Can the government, through Order-in-Council, remove that exemption or do they have to come to this Legislature for authority to do so, such, if they want to tax greater th ose people who want to attain their own personal real property? Does the Cabinet have that authority in Council to do so? HON. V. SCHROEDER: I'll take the question as notice, but I should emphasize that there is no intention, on the part of the government, to elimina te that tax benefit for farmers.

As I understand that word, the temporary refers only to the situation where farm land might subsequently be util ized for some purpose, other than farming, in which case the transfer tax should be paid; but not where it goes from one person farming the land to another person farming the land. There is not intention on the part of the government to make any changes, whether by way of legislation or by way of Order-in-Council. Land Transfer Tax - government authority to increase MR. C. MANNESS: A final supplementa ry, Madam Speaker .

In the same vein, does the government have the authority in land transfers, indeed if they begin to want to tax tha t, or indeed in other real estate transfers, does the government have authority to set up higher taxes, higher rates of taxation, at different levels? And I'm thinking, specifical ly, Mada m Speak er, to use an exa mple , 5 percent tax at any land sale beyond $300,000.00. Does the government have the authority now to do that outside of this Legislature, or would such a measure have to be brought back to the House? 2089

Friday, 15 May, 1987 HON. V. SCHROEDER: I'll take the specifics of the question as notice, but again the time at which we make the se change s is at Bu dget time. They' re announced, just like when members opposite were in office and they made changes to water power rates or changes to so many of the fees that are changed, this is not the only fee. When put in context we have a Budget in the range of $4 billion, $1 0 million of that is a fairly small proportion of it. Spruce Woods Park - viability insurance re wagon ride and riding stable MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: Thank you, Madam Speaker. A few days ago the Member for Gladstone raised a question about a business person in her constituency who had some dif ficulty with obtaining liabili ty insura nce. I wish to advise this House that MPIC staff have been in contact with the operators and have had discus sions with the Parks Branch and I'm pleased to advise that the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation has now been able to provide the coverage required by the operators, which will enable it to carry on this bu siness during the weeken d.

Another good example of a Crown corporation serving Manitobans by providing a service that was not available from the private sector. Sister MacNamara School - adequate open space provided MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Charle swood. MR. J. ERNST: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My que stion is to the Minister of Education. Madam Speak er, for the last while the Winnipeg School Division No. 1 has been in the process of acquiring land for the Sister MacNa mara School in the north of Ellice neighbourhood.

Madam Speaker, it would appear that in conflict with tha t land acquisition program, is an intention by the housing department to add some add itional MHRC housing to th at neighbourhood. Can the Minister assure the House, Madam Speaker, that adequate open space will be attached to the Sister MacNa mara School, rather than try and shoehorn in another MHR C project in an already overcrowded neighbourhood? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Education. HON. J.

STORIE: Well, Madam Speak er, first of all, we are not talking about, and I'm not sure how it was reported, but we're not talking about an MHRC project. Madam Speak er, I under stand it's a co-op project sponsored by a co-op group. Madam Speaker, the member should also be aware that the Department of Educ ation does not get involved in acquisit ion of land. The acquisition of the site, the 2090 size of the site, the setting of the school on the site, is the responsibility of the school division.

That is done in consultation with the Public Schools Finance Board, but the decision is made by the school board, on the site selection, on the al location of land for that site. The Department of Education has no role to play in that, other than to provide the funds in support of acquisition; we provide that service. The fact that there is conflicting use has occurred outside the Department of Housing, outside the Department of Education, is a coincidenc e, Madam Speaker, which will have to be resolved by the Winnipeg School Division and the particular co-op involved in the land acquisition. MR. J.

ERNST: Madam Spea ker, I thank the Minister for that answer. Notwithstanding the fact that the jurisdiction for siting of the school and acquiring of the land may be outside of his ju risdiction, it would appe ar, Mada m Speaker, that the Province of Manitoba is going to provide all of the money to build this school and to buy the land. Sur ely the Min ister of Educ ation could take his responsibility and assist, Madam Speaker, with the question of determining if there is adequate open space on that site. HON. J.

STORIE: Well, Madam Speaker, the member is suggesting that I interfere directly and direct the Winnipeg School Division to do this or that. Mada m Speaker, I have ind icated that the allocation of space, the acquisition of property is the responsibility of the school division; they determine the requirements, the recreat ional requirements, for that particular school based on its population and the availability of land. We have already made addit ional funds available to the Winnipeg School Division so that they, in fact, can acquire add itional property to make sure that there is appropriate green space.

I understand that discussions are ongoing in terms of the possibility of establishing adequate green space. It is a concern of the school division and, if it's necessary , the province will certainly look at providing additional funds, beyond the funds that are already allocated in the school division, can priorize as they see fit. Manitoba Lotteries Foundation - revenues capped MR. J. ERNST: I have a new question for the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation.

Madam Speak er, on March 17, the Minister advised members of the umbrella groups, who benefit from Lottery Foundatio n revenues, that they would have their revenues capped as of April 1. Madam Speak er, the Minister provided me last year, during Estimates, with copies of the contracts that the umbrella groups have with the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation. That contract, Madam Speak er, requires 90 days notice of any change in the funding formula. Madam Speaker, is it now the policy of the government to break contracts whenever it sees fit, in order to channel monies into general revenues?

MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mini ster responsible for Lotteries.

Friday, 15 May, 1987 HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Let me go over all of these issues again, as I have done in the past in this Chamber. It was indicated in the Budget that some of the surplus money through growth in Lottery revenue beyond '86-87, would be allocated toward some health care projects, something that members opposite have been mentioning to me, and to others, for quite some time . I remember, specifically, the Member for Pembina in last year's Estimates suggesting that money be designated specifically from Lottery revenue toward health care projects .

I would expect that this would be consistent with some of that direction. Madam Speaker, consequently a series of discussions were put in place with each umbrella group, to discuss a means by which we could arrive at a reasonable solution for guaranteeing that this effective distribution system continues, and also negotiating increases.

Madam Speaker, we have decided, and the Member for Charleswood knows this full well, to put on hold the question of increases beyond '86-87 revenues, until a complete needs assessment has been done, and until all groups and all organizations have had a chance to have some input into the way in which we distribute Lottery revenue. Other members have made suggestions that seem to contradict what he's saying.

The Member for Emerson has suggested, during the Estimates of my colleague, the Member for Natural Resources, that we immediately change the whole system and give a whole pile of money to the Conservation Council. Madam Speaker, we would like to do that on a planned and rational basis, with input from all sectors of the non-profit community. MADAM SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has expired. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MADAM SPEAKER: May I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where we have with us Mr.

Ray Baird, who is a Progressive Conservative Member of the House of Assembly for Humber West in Newfoundland, and his Special Assistant to the Premier of Newfoundland. On behalf of all the members, we welcome you to our Legislature this morning. ORDERS OF THE DAY MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader . HON. J. COWAN: Yes, Madam Speaker. As agreed upon between members of the Opposition and the government side, the routine for the day will be the calling of the Condolence Motions, as well as Second Reading on Bill No. 31,

An Act to amend The Community Child Day Care Standards Act, following the Condolence Motions. MOTIONS OF CONDOLENCE MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I beg to move , seconded by the Honourable Leader of the Opposition , the Member for Tuxedo , THAT this House convey to the family of the late Walter Ernest Clark , who served as a Member of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba , its sincere sympathy in their bereavement and its appreciation of his devotion to duty in a useful life of active community and public service; and that Madam Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this resolution to the family . MOTION presented . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, Walter Clark was first elected to this House in June of 1955. He provided the people of his constituency of Mountain with good and effective representation in the time that he served them in this Chamber . His years of service included 18 years as the reeve of the Rural Municipality of Argyle, Walter's long-time place of residence. The Town of Baldur, Manitoba, will remember his years of single-minded devotion to their common good .

Walter Clark's deep sense of concern for agricultural matters, in particular, led to his frequent and effective contributions to debate on subjects pertaining to the rural community in agricultural policy in this Chamber. They were contributions that served his community and served this province well. Madam Speaker, I would like to extend to all of those who were close to Walter Clark, to his former constituents, as well as his family, my heartfelt sympathy in this time of loss. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I am pleased to rise and support, as seconder, the Motion of Condolence, as presented by the Premier , in this Assembly, on behalf of the memory of Walter Ernest Clark. Madam Speaker, although Mr. Clark is not known personally to any of our members, I certainly wish to express on their behalf, on behalf of the Progressive Conservative members of this Legislature, our most sincere condolences to the members of his family and to those who knew him in the community in which he lived. Madam Speaker, Mr. Clark was unique in a variety of ways.

As a member of the Assembly, he was 65 years old when he entered this Legislature, having served as reeve of Argyle Municipality, I believe, for 18 years . He served for a short time, from 1955-1958 , but had the honour of seconding the Speech from the Throne in his very first maiden speech in this Legislature , and I think that it is interesting to harken back. I have a copy of a news report on the speech , and it's one of those instances in which we can see, despite changes in society, despite changes in time and the economy, how much things remain the same, because the headline of the

article on his speech said: "Farm inequity said prosperity threat." It goes on to say, and 2091

Friday, 15 May, 1987 I qu ote: "The plight of Manitoba farmers caught between rising production costs and falling farm prices got a lengthy airing in the Legislature by Walter Clark as he seconded the Throne Speech reply." So here we are, today, dealing with essentially the same circumstances affecting our farm community and the very same major concerns about the viability of those who are farming in Ma nitoba were being expr essed at that time, in 1955, when Walter Clark seconded the Speech from the Throne. Madam Speaker, Mr.

Clark gave to his community and to his province, through his service in the Legislature and through his service as reeve, a great deal of valuable service. Those of us who have the privilege of serving in this Legislature know that it is a sacrifice, both to family and personal time, but ultima tely it's the finest commitment that any of us can make to his or her province. So, on behalf of my colleagues in the Legislature, we join in this Motion of Condo lence.

We express our sincere sympathies, and we express our gratitude to his family for the service that he gave here in this Leg isla tur e and in this commu nity, and to the commitments that he made, as a member of this Legislature, to the people of this province. Thank you. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Educa tion. HON. J. STORIE: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise to speak on this Condo lence Motion, not out of any political affiliation with Mr. Clark, but because of the fact that I knew Mr. Clark as a neighbour growing up in Baldur .

I moved to Baldur with my family in 1955 and as luck, fate, would have it, lived kitty-corner to Walter Clark's farm. · I guess the Condole nce Motions in this House are special because, as the Leader of the Opposition has said, public service is a sacrifice, and those who serve in the Legislature recognize that better than most people. I think it is important that we, as individual members, recognize those who have passed on, who have served and served well, and Mr. Clark was one of those individuals. My memories of Mr.

Clark, as a six-year-old child, were fond ones, and because, I guess, of my extreme youth at that time, it never struck me as peculiar that Mr. Clark would be a member of the Legislature because everyone over 15 seemed old. The fact that he was 65 years old when he was first elected is unusual, and I think is an indication of the spirit of the man and his desire, his willingness to continue to serve the public beyond the fact that he had been reeve, as my grandfather had been reeve, of the Municipality of Argyle. So, Madam Speaker, I think it's appropriate that we mourn the passing of Walter Clark.

I know that he served in the Legislature a relatively short period of time, but my memories of him are fond. He was a kind gentleman , kind to children and dogs in particular , I guess, as the saying goes, so he couldn't have been all bad. Madam Speaker, I remember riding on his tractor. I believe it was the first row-crop tractor I had seen. It was an exciting event for myself, a city kid, in 1955 or 1956. So, Madam Speaker, I, too, would like to pass on my condolences to the family and commend the memory of Walter Clark to members in this House and to the people of Manitoba.

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I, too, would like to join in the Condolence Motion for Walter Clark and to tell the members of the House that often we come to the Legislature or to political life with a mission, and Walter Clark had a mission. His mission was to obtain a doctor and a hospital for the Argyle area, which he did. As life would have it, some years later, I ended up teaching all of the children of the do ctor who went into Baldur . So we find connections in the strangest ways in our society.

But that's how I learned of Baldur , through these three boys in boarding school here in Winnipeg. The accomplishment of Walter Clark in obtaining that kind of health care service for his community is of importance to that community and is well noted by them. Therefore, I join with them and with his relatives and family in mourning his loss. MADAM SPEAKER: To indicate their support for the motion, would all members please rise for a moment of silence. (A moment of silence was observed.) MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H.

PAWLEY: Mada m Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet, THAT this House convey to the family of the late Stanle y Copp, who served as a member of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, its sincere sympathy in their bereavement and its appreciation of his devotion to duty in a useful life of active community and public service; and that Madam Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this resolution to the family. MOTION presented. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, Stanley Copp devoted the majority of his fruitful life to the service of his community and his family.

He gave in an unstinting way to those whom he served, to those whom he loved. Mr. Copp was born some 72 years ago in Winnipeg, and was edu cated at Lord Kitchener School in North Kildonan. He was an important member of the City of Winnipeg's business communit y, establishing and operating a number of enterprises until his untimely passing, which occurred earlier this month. Stanley Copp was elected to the House in 1953. He served his constituencies faithfully and effectively until 1958.

In addition to his years of service as a member of the Legislature in this very Chamber, Stanley Copp provided the community of North Kildonan with effective 2092

Friday, 15 May, 1987 leadership. He was a member of North Kil donan Municipal Council for 12 years, and was mayor of that community. Those who came in touch with Stanle y Copp, both in public service and in business, speak of his devotion to his wife, Stella, their five chil dren and seventeen gran dchildr en. To those individ uals, I extend my condo lences and comfort in this time of their bereavement. The co ntributions Stanley Copp made in his rich life will live on and will be remembered for many years to come. His former constituents in the riding of St.

Clements were well-served by this man, and I know they continue to app reciate the long hours of work and the effort that he devoted to their well-being. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. C. BAKER: Thank you, Madam Speak er. I think it's appropriate that I should speak to this motion because Stanley Copp served most of the area that I now serve, Lac du Bonnet, Beausejour , within part of the constit uency of St. Clements. I remember those years very well.

I remember atte nding a Liberal Convention at East Selkirk and witnessing Stanley winning the nomination against eight other contestants. Those were the heydays of the Liberals, you have to understand, and many people coveted that particular position that he aspir ed to. I want to say further that those were the days, almost prior television days, and any political event at that time was well-attended. I think television was already out, but there were many people, because of relative econ omic situatio ns, couldn't afford to buy a television just as soon as they came out.

So every political event that took place in th ose days was well-attended. I remember also the campaign, because I was operating a sawmill just outside the Town of Lac du Bonnet and I remember a car driving into the mill yard and a nice personable fellow came out with a - if I remember correctly - with a bowler straw hat or one of those flat straw hats, a pleasant young man. The sawm ill owner, being a good Liberal, gave us th ree­ quarters of an hour coffee break and we had a nice chat with Stanle y. It was unde rstood that he would get elected because he was a very personable and likeable individual.

He served the constituency of St. Clements well in those days, I believe, Mada m Speaker. He had a sense of belonging to the people in his constit uency. I remember discussing and talking with him about some business propositions that he was involved in, and he named me the person who he bought his first load of potatoes from, because, as well as being a farmer, he also dealt in selling potatoes, and he mentioned a lady - I'm sorry I can't remember her name - but it was a lady in Rossdale. So I think he, in those years, served us to the capacity that would have been an example for me to follow.

Of cours e, sometimes politics plays cruel tricks on individuals, and though he served the constituency well, at the end of a five-year stint, he found that he was on the outside looking in, as happens to every politician sooner or later, and then he turned his talents to business. I remem ber the four or five years after he finished his career in politics that he got involved in a business enterprise and he opened what was called the Spud Stop. I used to stop in occasionally just to keep my acqua intance with him, and also to get his view on the particular current political topic of the day.

I enjoyed th ose cups of coffee that I shared with him in tho se days. I then got very busy, Madam Speak er, and, of course, years went by and I never stopped in for coffee, and when I got elected this last spring, I decided to stop in and renew my acquaintance with Stanley Copp and perhaps get some advice from him, and I did. We spent one-half hour chatting togeth er, and I'm happy I did because I didn't realize that I would never have that opportunity again. Ma dam Speaker, I think that Eastern Manitoba was better off for having Stanley Copp serve them for the five years.

As a matter of fact, I think all of Manitoba is better off for having Stanley Copp serve them for the five years. I want to extend my condol ences to his fami ly, and thank them for allowing him the five years to serve Manitoba ns. Thank you. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Madam Spea ker. I join in this Condolence Motion, although I never met Mr. Copp, as has the Member for Lac du Bonnet.

So in order to find out a little bit about him, I made some contact with others who had served with him in the period between '53 and '58, and what I learned from them was of a man who gave his full time and attention to whatever was his responsibility at any particular time. Whether it was his service as a school trustee or on the city council or indeed mayor of North Kildonan, or whether it was as a member of this Legislatur e, he brought with it a devotion to duty which he also brought into all of his business and family relationshi ps.

And so I join with the Legislature in offering our sincere condolences to the family of Stanley Copp. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I wish to rise in support of the Motion of Condole nce presented by the Premier on behalf of my colleagues in the Progr essive Conservative Caucus in thi s Legislature. Although Mr. Copp was not known personally to me, he was well-known to the Member for Portage la Prairie who had wanted to express his own personal knowledge of Mr. Copp but is unfortunately unable to be here tod ay. As was mentioned, after Mr.

Copp's, and before, his service in this Legislature and his long-time service on the North Kildonan Council, ultima tely as mayor, he was an active vegetable producer. Of course, the Member for Portage la Prairie knew him because of the member's service on the board of the Manitoba Vegetable Producers' Mar keting Association. 2093

Friday, 15 May, 1987 So we, on this side of the House, want to pay tribute to Mr. Copp's memory for his services to his community not only as a local councillor , not only as a local busine ssman and vegetable market garden er, but also, of cour se, as one who took the ultimate responsibility of service to his community in this Legislature. We want to pass along to his wife and family our sincere condol ences.

We share in their loss in his passing, and we, as well, want to say thank you for the services that he gave to his community and to the people of this province, both as a local official and as a member of this Legislature. MADAM SPEAKER: To indicate support for the motion, would all members please rise for a moment of silence. (A moment of silence was observed.) MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speak er, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for River Heights, THAT this House convey to the family of the late Earl Phill ip Dawson, who served as a member of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, its sincere sympathy in their bereavement and its appreciation of his devotion to duty in a useful life of active community and public service; and that Madam Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this resolution to the family. MOTION presented. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Spea ker, first, I would like to just bring a word or two on behalf of the Minister of Health and Social Services who served with Mr. Dawson in the same caucus from 1966- 1969. The Minister of Health had to leave for another urgent matter, but would like to have been here to provide his own sense of sympathy to the family , as he remembers in a very positive way the late Member for Hamio ta and his contribution to the public well-being of the province. Madam Speak er, Earl Dawson was elected to the House to represent the constituents of the riding of Hamiota for the years 1966 through 1969.

While in this Chamber , Earl Dawson served his constituents' interests well, providing valuable contributions to the debates of the da y, tireless hours of work on behalf of groups and indiv iduals who sought his assistance and received it in an unstinting way. Earl Dawson came to this House with a lengthy record of service that was already well in hand. He was born in the City of St. Boniface in 1925, and served with the Air Force and Army during the Second World War. Having completed his war du ty, Earl returned to Manitoba, taking up residence in Rivers in 195 1.

Though active with his own business in that town, Earl Dawson served as president of the Rivers Cham ber of Commerce, commanding officer of the Rivers Air Cadet Squadron, president of the Manitoba Amateur Hockey Association, and I might also add president of the Manitoba Amateur Hockey Associat ion, and also, I gather , president of the Canadian Amateur Hockey Association, as well as first secretary of Canada Games, which was one of his very major contributions.

That was the one time that I recall meeting the late Earl Phillip Dawson, when he was working on the Canada Games and his commitment to the success of those games. After serving the people of Hamiota as an effective voice in the Legislature, he carried out that commitment to sports in Manitoba and Canada. His skills, his hard work help make the Canada Games the success that it turned out to be. Those who knew Earl Dawson personally speak of his dedication, his deep love for his partner throughout life, his wife Madeline, their sons and daugh ter and grandchildren.

To them I extend, on behalf of all members of this Chamber , my deepest sympathy for their loss, and offer them our condolences at this time of their bereavement. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Mada m Speaker. I join with the Premier in sec onding this Condol ence Motion to the family of the late Earl Dawson. I think it appr opriate that I quote from Rudyard Kipling who said: "In all time of our distress and in our triumph, too, the game is more than the player of the game, and the ship is more than the crew.

" That was certa inly the motto of Earl Dawson's life, because he really believed that it wasn't just winning that was important. It was cer tainly pla ying the ga me in all of its ramifications. Earl Dawson tragically left us only at the age of 61 and had, in his last year, played his own very tough game in a battle with cancer. He has, as the Fir st Mini ster has said, served disting uished service during World War II. Interestingly enough, when he came back, he joined the Royal Canadian Legion and, like so many war veterans, became a very active participant in the Legion.

It was, of course, his very special pride that the Legion was a contributor to amateur sport, which was certainly Earl Dawson's love in all of his life. He served the constituency of Ha miota in a great spirit of giving , which was part also of Earl 's contribution. I think to close I would like to quote from Henry Newbolt. "This they all with a joyful mind; bear through life like a torch and flame; And falling fling to the host behind; Play up, play up and play the game." MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

It's a privilege for me, on behalf of my colle agues in the Opposition Caucus of the Legislature, to join in support of the Motion of Condolence on behalf of Earl Dawson. Earl's lifetime involved a proud history of service in so many different ways to his community and to our province. The service in the Armed Forces during World War II that continued to be an interest of his through his involvement with the Legion and, ultim ately , as commanding officer of the Rivers Air Cadet Squadron, 2094

Friday, 15 May, 1987 the service on town council, as president of the Cha mber of Commerce, in so many different community-based activites. Of course, his years of service from 19 66- 1969 here in this Legislatu re, but then ultimately the lifetime of service that most people remember him for in the sporting commun ity. I recall, because of my great appr eciatio n for hockey - I've been a lifetime hockey fan - reference to Earl Dawson as President of MAHA and ultimately CAHA.

In so many different major international tou rnaments, Earl Dawson was Canada's representative, as I recall, at World Ho ckey Championship s, at Olympic Championships and so on. He ultimately , of cours e, served for 17 years with Sports Canada. As the Premier indicated, he was very heavily involved as an initial organizer and th rust behind the Canada Games organization - secretary to the Canada Games Council. So it's through tho se endeavours that Earl Dawson's name was probably best known . They certainly were a high level of service, not only to Manitoba, but to Canada in the sporting commun ity.

As one of my colleagues - and he's known, of course, to a number of my colleagues personally - ind icated, probably , because of Earl Dawson's commitment to amateur sport, Hamiota has always been a hot bed of sporting activity and has produced many ath letes of national calibre and renown. Certainly , provincial ly, it is well-known as a hot bed in terms of hock ey, baseball, curling and so many other amateur sports.

So for his service in so many different fields, but all of them involving great commitment and contribution to his community and his province, we are very pleased to join in the Motion of Condole nce and, particular ly, to express our sympathies to Earl's wife and family, to his many friends and associates for his lifetime of service to Manitoba. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Madam Speaker , just very briefly , as one who had the privilege of sitting with the late Earl Dawson in this Chamber , allow me to add my personal words of support to the motion before us.

Earl Dawson, as I recall him, was an aggressive member. He was elected in that year that has been referred to from time to time in this Chamber , 19 66, the same year that I was elected. I had the privilege of joining Mr. Roblin's Cabinet; and Earl, I must say, if he had a political disappoi ntment was that he was the last time, certain ly, in a decade and a half, that there was a revival of the Liberal Party's hopes in the South west. Earl Dawson came into this House with two other colleagues, Mr. Rod Clement, and Mr.

Dow from Turtle, in that election of '66, which certainly represented a setback to the then-Conservative administration of Duff Roblin of some concern; but alas, for Mr. Dawson 's sake and the Liberal Party's sake, that revival was snuffed out with the event that took place in 1969 when some other group rose to some prominence in this province and in this Cham ber. I did not know Earl that well. We were only members and colleagues together in this Cha mber for three years.

As I said, he was an aggressive new member in the House and no doubt would have excelled, as he excelled in so many other walks of life, had political fate been somewhat kinder to him. I believe redistribution, among other things , might have had something to do with his short-l ived political career. With those few comments, Madam Speaker, I cert ainly wish to associate myself with the Condolence Motion before us. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ch arleswood. MR. J. ERNST: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I wish to add my few words to this Condolence Motion.

Mada m Speak er, I did not know Earl Dawson in the political context. In fact, quite frank ly, until his untimely death, I didn't even know he was a member of the Legislature, I'm ashamed to admit. But I did know Earl Dawson in another context, and that was the context of his association with hocke y. Earl Dawson, as president of the Canadian Amateur Ho ckey Association, and later with the Federal Government Department of Sport had a great deal to do with organizing major hockey tou rnaments in Winnipeg.

Certain ly, during my time as a direct or of the Winnipeg Enterprises Corporatio n, I had much to do with Earl Dawson in the organization of world-class hockey tou rnaments, the World Junior Hockey Tournament of 19 70, of the World Midget Tournament some years later tha n tha t, Madam Speak er. His involvement, his dedication and his hard work in tho se areas I'm sure stood him in good stead as a member of this House and as a contributor to the well-being of all of the citizens of Manitoba. Ma dam Speak er, I wish to add my support to the Motion of Condolence and expressions to his family.

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise to join in the Motion of Condole nce to the Dawson family and want to say that as a young man from rural Manitoba I can definitely support and associate my comments, the Leader of the Opposition in his comments, about the Town of Hamiota and the products of Hamiota being of international - and not only in hocke y, but of course currently in basketball - and the spirit of that community of which I had the opportun ity, Madam Speak er, to compete against as a neighbouring community and town.

Madam Speaker, when an individual such as Mr. Dawson does take the time to spend some time with the most valuable resource tha t we produce in this count ry, in the world, the young people, to make future citizens, one has to say and certainly take their hat off to them and it was with th ose thoughts that I rise. On another front, Madam Speak er, I happ ened to have the opportunity to be a member of the Waskada Air Cadets Squadr on which operated out of Rivers, and Mr. Dawson being part of that movement and organization, it was about the same time that I was involved.

And, as a young person, who I feel benefited from both sporting programs and the air cadet program, I say thanks to his contribut ion, to his fami ly, and I say 2095

Friday, 15 May, 1987 more people should take the example which he set for the development of our young people. It's with those thought s, Madam Speak er, that I rise to join in the Motion of Condolence to the Dawson family . MADAM SPEAKER: Would you indicate your support to the motion?

Would all members rise for a moment 's silence as an indic ation of their agreement with the motion. (A moment of silence was observed.) INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MADAM SPEAKER: May I direct the attention of honou rable members to the loge to my right where we have with us this morning the former Member of the Legislative Assembly, for Concordia, and the former Speaker of this Legislatu re, Mr. Peter Fox; and also just arrived in the loge to my left, the Member of Parli ament for Winnipeg North, Mr. David Orlikow. On behalf of all the members, we welcome you to the Legislature this morning.

MOTION OF CONDOLENCE MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable the First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Spea ker, I beg to move, seconded by the Leader of the Opposit ion, the Honourable Member for Tuxedo, THAT this House convey to the family of the late the Honourable John William Mcl eod Thompson, Q. C., who served as a member of the Legislative Assembly of Manitob a, its sincere sympathy in their bereavement and its appreciation of his devotion to duty in a useful life of active community and public service; and that Madam Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this resolution to the family. MOTION presented.

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker , I would like to first advise that the Member for St. Boniface, the Minister of Health, would very much as well liked to have been here in the Condolence Motion involving John William Mcl eod Thompson. I believe that the Honourable Minister of Health was probably the only member of this Chamber that would have served during part of the time that the late John William Mcl eod Thompson served.

The Minister of Health has certainly described positively his experience with the late John William Mcl eod Thompson in this Chamber and commented positively on his commitment to duty on behalf of the public of Manitoba. Madam Speak er, the Honourable John Th ompson was first elected to this House by the people of Virden in 1953, serving as Cabinet Minister respons ible for, at different times, Municipal Affairs, Labour , and for Public Works. The son of prairie pioneers, he was born at Elkho rn, received his early education there, and later at Brandon College and the University of Manitoba.

He established a law practice in Elkho rn, Manitoba - and that was, I guess, the time when small little villages, communities, could count on the service of a legal counsel, which is not the case today - served his community as a school trustee, as a town council lor, as a chai rperson of the hospital board, and as a mayor. He was also superintendent of the United Church Sunday School and was a member of the Masonic Lodge. He served with the Royal Canadia n Air Force during the Second World War. He was a life member of the Royal Canadian Legion.

He was also a life member of the Roads and Transportation Association of Canada. After his retirement from the Legislature in 19 62, John was appointed Judge of the County Court and was subsequently conferred with the title "Honourable" by the Governor-General in 1983. Those who recall John Thompson's service in this House speak of his dedication, of his energetic support and love for the province of his birth.

He's remembered at all times as a Minister of Health, referred to him in this way, to me, as always a very fair, very hard working individual who carried on that same fair and hard working service as a member of the judic iary in the Province of Manitoba, as well as a devoted family man, on all occasions. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speak er, I am pleased to rise and second the Motion of Condolence of the Premier in memory of the Honourable John Thompson.

Although I didn't have the privilege of serving with John Thompson, I certainly had the great pleasure of meeting him on a number of occasions. As a matter of fact, Mr. Thom pson introduced himself to me at the Leadership Convention at which I was elected Leader of our party in 19 83, because it was the first opportunity that he had to resume involvement in partisan political life, or at least to be seen in attendance at a political function.

He had just recently retired earlier that year from the Bench and was very happy to be able to, once again, associate with many friends and colleagues within the Progressive Conservative Party of Manitoba. Later, of course, I saw him at a number of public functions but ran into him unexpectedly in the summer of 1985 in Virden. Janice and I were there to participate in the Annual Virden Fair, and the first people we ran into were the Thomps ons who were there because of the 90th birthday of Mr. Thompson 's mother-in-law in a senior ci tizens home in Virden.

So we chatted at that time and visited the senior citizens home that evening and partici pated in wishing his mother-in-law a happy 90th birthda y. I later had the great privilege of conferring an Ho nourary Life Member ship in the Progressive Conservative Party of Manitoba on Mr. Thompson for his lengthy and signific ant public service. He was, of course, a member of this Legislature for nine years from 1953 to 19 62.

He served in a variety of Cabinet portfolios, including Minister of Labour , Minister of Municipal Affairs and Minister of Public Works and Highways, which he retained an interest in, ultimately, 2096

Friday, 15 May, 1987 that had him back involved with the Canadian Good Roads Association and, latterly, as a life member of the Roads and Transportation Associa tion of Canada . As a Judge of the County Court , he served Manitoba Southern and Eastern Judicial Districts and at all times was considered to be a very diligent member of the Bench, an individual who was always fair-minded and, as I and so many of his friends and former colleagues had known him to be, at all times a very fine gentleman .

So, Madam Speaker , I am pleased, on behalf of my colleagues , not only to be associated but to support this Motion of Condolence in the memory of John Thompson , to express very sincerely our heartfelt sympathies to his wife, Lorraine, and to his family and his friends, and to exp res s, certainly, our thanks for a life of devoted service both as a public servant and as a judge and in so many ways in support in service to his community. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member fo r Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY : Thank you , Madam Speaker.

I rise to join in the Motion of Condolence to the John Thompson family , and I do so, Madam Speaker , as a member representing a neighbouring constituency being very close to the Towns of Elkhorn and Virden and many interacting communities of interest. Madam Speaker , I had the opportun ity to meet John Thompson on a few occasions both in the riding of Virden and in events to do with legislative activities .

Madam Speaker , I say that, No. 1, it truly takes a dedicated person to carry out the activities of not only an MLA but a Cabinet Minister coming from the far regions in the outside areas of the province and it is, I believe, a tremendous dedication to carry out those responsibilities and extra work .

As well, Madam Speaker, the relationship that the constituency of Arthur had with Virden and the friendship that goes back and forth from some of the former members , I want to say, I know that there are close family ties with some of the members of my constituency, and friendship, and I want to rela y from the people of Arthur to the Thompson family the feelings of sorrow and thought of them in a time of sorrow. Madam Speaker, my lasting impression of Mr. Thompson was he truly was an honour able gentleman. Thank you . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Lakeside . MR. H. ENNS: Thank you, Madam Speaker .

Just a word or two to associate myself with the Condolence Motion before the Chamber . The Honourable John Thompson's life truly reflects a very full life of service in every way to country , to community , to church. But as an ex-Highways Ministe r, perhaps allow me simply to underline a particular achievement of the Honou rable John Thompson, because it was his role as Public Works and Highways Minister that Manitoban s should today still remember .

It brought in a decade of bringing into the 20th Century the provincia l trunk highway systems, the provincial road systems , many of them which were negotiated somewhat later on with the aid of the late Walter Weir, but those two men, the work initiated by the Honourable John Thompson and carried to its conclusion by the late Walter Weir, Manitobans to this day can still be thankful in terms of the basic infrastructure of our road and highway systems that marked th at particular decade of government and the particular government that he was associated with. Thank you , Madam Speaker .

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Than k you, Madam Speaker . Just a few words in respect to this motion. I did not know the Honourable Mr. Thompson while he was a member of this Assembly and a Cabinet Minister . I did, however , as a younger lawyer, have the opportunity to appear befo re His Honour Judge Thompson on a number of occas ions shortly after being called to the Bar in this province . I always remember Judge Thompso n as a very kindly gentleman and particularly, as a younger lawyer, a pleasure to appear before.

I'm sure that he carried out his responsibilities as a member of this Legislature and as a Cabinet Ministe r in that same vein and that same way. It would have been a pleasure to serve with him in this Assembly , and I therefore wish to associate myself in support of the motion, Mada m Speaker. MADAM SPEAK ER: The Honourabl e Member for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: Madam Speaker, I take pleasure in joining with honourable members in paying tribute to the Honourable John Thompson. Mr.

Thompso n was of anothe r generation from myself , and I didn't know him as a polit ician , Madam Spea ker, but as the honourable member who just spoke mentioned , I also had the opportunity as a cour t reporte r to appear with, as opposed to before , His Honour Judge Thompson as I knew him. And when I first joined the public service in 1969, that was my first opportunity to get to meet and know Judge Thompson , and I worked with him from 1969 until 1974.

I can cert ainly say that Judge Thompson was a very fair and kindly gentleman , and he was also accommodating to those barristers who appeared before him, as well as all lit igants who appeared bef ore him, and he was always cognizant of the needs of staf f as well. So for those things, I remember Judge Thompson as a kind man who was a thoughful person.

I, too , had occasion once or twice, since his retirement from the Bench , to meet with him at various political meetings , and he always struck me as the kind of person that if only both of us had had more time, I think it would have been easy for us to have developed a much closer friendship than the one that we did in the conte xt of our relationship. He sta nds out in my mind as the kind of person that I would like to have known bett er. I join with my colleague s in offering sympathy to the family of the Honourable John Thompso n.

I do say, however, that I believe his family has been fortunate to have been able to spend as many years as they have with th is very fine man . MADAM SPEAKER: To indicate support for the motion , would all memb ers please rise for a moment of silence. 2097

Friday, 15 May, 1987 (A moment of silence was observed.) SECOND READING BILL NO. 31 - THE COMMUNITY CHILD DAV CARE STANDARDS ACT MADAM SPEAKER: On Second Reading, Bill No. 31. The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH presented Bill No. 31 ,

An Act to amend The Community Child Day Care Standards Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les garderies d'enfants, for Second Reading . MOTION presented. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services . HON. M. SMITH: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I'd like to introduce for Second Reading today a bill to amend The Community Child Day Care Standards Act. The amendments deal with the issue of refusing to classify persons as eligible to work in licensed day care centres if they are deemed unfit to work with children .

In addition, the amendments provide the right and process of appeal for individuals who have either been refused the necessary classification or have had their classification revoked or suspended. If any person working in a licensed day care centre is found to present a danger to the health, safety or well-being of children, the director of day care will now have the right under law to suspend or cancel that person's classification.

Madam Speaker, these amendments are being proposed to protect children, who might be at risk because of a worker who may be involved or connected with abuse or any other violent offence or act. The amendments focus on the needs and rights of children to a healthy, safe and nurturing environment in licensed day care centres . This is one more important safeguard to ensure our youngsters are receiving the best care possible. It also allows parents to have confidence in the care being provided for their children.

Madam Speaker, there have been elsewhere in Canada and the United States incidences of individuals working with young children who have endangered those children, particularly as evidenced by some of the child abuse allegations in other jurisdictions . The amendments we are proposing provide us with the ability to respond quickly to deal with situations of this nature. While maintaining the rights of children is central to the amendments we are proposing , we also recognize the rights of day care workers to appeal a decision made against them.

Therefore, as before, workers will have the right to appeal any decision. They have the right to appeal a refusal to be classified. They may also appeal a cancellat ion or a suspension of a certificate to the Court of Queen's Bench. The government wants to ensure that our children are being entrusted to the care of persons who are duly qualified in all respects. I believe there is consensus among all members of this House that we must do everything we can to protect our youngest and most vulnerable group of citizens .

I therefore hope that the proposed changes which I have outlined will receive the full support of all members. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Just a question for clarification: Would the Minister inform the House how many instances there have been where unfit workers have endangered children? HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker, the incidences that led to the development of this amendment were in fact from other jurisdictions outside the province. I am not aware of any specifics here.

This is an anticipatory protective move, but I will inquire again to see if there have in fact been any incidents here where we weren't able to move when we thought we should. But to my knowledge there have not been cases here in Manitoba. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: I move, seconded by the Member for Niakwa , that the debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J.

COWAN: Madam Speaker, would you please call debate on Second Readings for the bills, starting with Bills No. 6, 15, 23, 24, 27, 28 and 29 as they appear on pages 3 and 4 of the Order Paper? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Opposition House Leader. MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker, I would like to indicate that all of those bills would be stood , and perhaps I could suggest that we call it 12:30. MADAM SPEAKER: Is that agreed? (Agreed) The hour being 12:30 p.m., the House is now adjourned and stands adjourned till 1:30 p.m. on Tuesday next . 2098