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June 23, 1987

33rd Parliament, 3rd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

L032 - Tue 23 Jun 1987 / Mar 23 jun 1987

COMMISSION ON ELECTION FINANCES

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

AIR-INDIA DISASTER

ONTARIO LOTTERY CORP.

GREATER KINGSTON CHEESE FESTIVAL

HIGHWAY CONSTRUCTION

HOUSING STOCK

CENTRES OF EXCELLENCE

ACQUIRED IMMUNE DEFICIENCY SYNDROME

RECORD OF DEBATES

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

COMPUTERS IN EDUCATION

PENSION BENEFITS

RESPONSES

COMPUTERS IN EDUCATION

PENSION BENEFITS

COMPUTERS IN EDUCATION

ORAL QUESTIONS

AUTO PACT

EDUCATION FUNDING

AUTO PACT

CONSTITUTIONAL ACCORD

AUTO PACT

FEDERAL TAX REFORM PROPOSALS

HUMAN RIGHTS

TRADE WITH UNITED STATES

HERITAGE LANGUAGES

ONTARIO STUDENT ASSISTANCE PROGRAM

EDUCATION FUNDING

WINTARIO TRAVEL GRANTS

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

PETITIONS

THERAPEUTIC ABORTIONS

CONSOLIDATION OF SCHOOLS

NATUROPATHY

EDUCATION FUNDING

REPORT BY COMMITTEE

STANDING COMMITTEE ON RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

EMPLOYMENT STANDARDS AMENDMENT ACT

MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS QUIETING ORDERS AMENDMENT ACT

MUNICIPAL PRIVATE ACTS REPEAL ACT

NOTICE OF DISSATISFACTION

ORDERS OF THE DAY

OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY AMENDMENT ACT (CONTINUED)

SPEECH PATHOLOGISTS

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

Prayers.

COMMISSION ON ELECTION FINANCES

Mr. Speaker: I beg to inform the House that today I have laid upon the table the 10th report of the Commission on Election Finances respecting the indemnities and allowances of the members of the Legislative Assembly. That report will be found in your mailboxes.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

AIR-INDIA DISASTER

Mr. Shymko: Today marks the tragic anniversary of the crash of Air-India flight 182 off the coast of Ireland. On this day in 1985, 329 lives were lost, 80 per cent of them Canadians; namely, 280 passengers who were Canadians, 62 of them children.

I rise, therefore, on behalf of all members of this Legislature, to commemorate and to honour the memory of the victims of this disaster and extend condolences to the families and friends of those who lost their lives in the disaster.

I would like to extend my deepest sympathy to all members of the Hindu community as well as Muslims, Sikhs and Christians who on this day will light candles in memory of those who perished in this senseless tragedy. We feel the grief and share the loss that has affected so many families in Toronto, Ontario and the rest of Canada.

We have come to realize that terrorism is not something that was somebody else's problem. We realize that Canadians were not isolated from this terrible action on the part of those who, for ideological or whatever reasons, perpetrate these terrible crimes with so many innocent victims.

We have made some progress in combating terrorism. There is still a great deal to be done and I hope our government, along with the federal government, will pursue that route.

ONTARIO LOTTERY CORP.

Mr. Laughren: I rise yet again to issue an offer on behalf of the government, because the Minister of Tourism and Recreation (Mr. Eakins) is too shy to extend an offer to all entrepreneurs anywhere in Ontario, Canada or any other jurisdiction, to come to Ontario and invade the Ontario market with their lottery tickets.

It seems not to matter to the government that this province makes $500 million a year on lottery profits; it is willing to put that in jeopardy by allowing entrepreneurs in this province to sell lottery tickets to other jurisdictions even though other jurisdictions have laws forbidding that. This government is quite happy to put in jeopardy that $500 million.

The Minister of Tourism and Recreation brought the bill back and wants the bill to go to third reading. For two months the government has sat and allowed Bill 115 to languish in third reading. It has been subjected to some kind of lobbying, some kind of high-powered pressuring, and the House leader and the Premier (Mr. Peterson) have submarine-torpedoed the Minister of Tourism and Recreation and will not call the bill for third reading.

The state of Florida has asked for three separate injunctions forbidding the sale of Ontario lottery tickets in Florida, yet this government looks the other way and winks at the people who are engaging in that unlawful practice.

GREATER KINGSTON CHEESE FESTIVAL

Mr. South: I take this opportunity to tell the House about the Greater Kingston Cheese Festival. We want to tell you, Mr. Speaker, and this House, that the best cheddar cheese in the world is made in eastern Ontario.

Mr. Gillies: All right.

Mr. South: That is right, Phil.

This will be a week-long event beginning on Monday, September 28, and running until Sunday, October 4. The first part of the week will be an opportunity to tell the children of the province about the magic and the history of cheese-making. The latter part of the week will be like an old-country-type fair, emulating the pioneer times when cheese was such an important commodity in Ontario.

I would also like to take the opportunity at this time to thank the Ministry of Tourism and Recreation for providing a $50,000 Destinations East grant to make this festival possible.

All of you, come on down to eastern Ontario and eat the best cheddar cheese in the world.

HIGHWAY CONSTRUCTION

Mr. Stevenson: Last week, I met with a committee of citizen representatives to discuss the report by the Ministry of Transportation and Communications regarding the reconstruction of Highway 48 from the hamlet of Virginia to the Morning Glory School in the town of Georgina.

The local citizens and all elected representatives feel reconstruction is necessary because of the increased traffic on Highway 48. Rapidly increasing truck traffic, particularly related to the aggregate industry, extra recreational and commercial traffic related to the gradual completion of Highway 404, and the growth in local traffic are contributing to a potentially dangerous situation.

The government killed the construction of an alternative highway to ease the burden on Highway 48 in the future. It is now time for the minister to commit funding for the extension of the four-lane

section east of Virginia or to put in a continuous left-turn lane and to construct a left-turn lane at the Morning Glory School.

The committee will be submitting a brief to the minister and I urge the minister to act quickly on this issue.

HOUSING STOCK

Mr. Reville: My statement today is entitled Books, Yes, Housing, No; or How the Minister Wrote While the Folks Camped Out.

One might have expected a Minister of Housing to be busy creating new housing, protecting existing housing and ensuring tenant protection; but no, this minister has been writing books. As books go, they are quite nice, though not particularly relevant for people who have no housing. Take this one, Understanding Your House. Is the big problem in Ontario really misunderstood houses? Do you not need to have a house before you can understand a house? Mind you, Mr. Speaker, psychotherapy for housing is trendy.

Two other titles seem to have been written for a smaller readership, a readership of one, in fact. This one, The Water Resistant House, is autobiographical. It is a somewhat wistful dream that somehow in the Legislature the minister can avoid being all wet. The companion volume is clearly the minister's diary. It contains the usual recipes for self-improvement and is appropriately called Get Your House in Shape.

Dare we hope, Minister?

CENTRES OF EXCELLENCE

Mr. Epp: I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate the University of Waterloo, a truly world-class institution, for its successful bid at being designated to participate in the centres of excellence program announced last Thursday by our Premier (Mr. Peterson). The announcement solely designated the University of Waterloo, among other institutions, as a Centre for Groundwater Research, as well as a participant in four other centres.

I would also like to salute the very highly qualified members of the Premier's Council, a group whose efforts should not be overlooked, at making their selection through an exhaustive process involving a formidable list of very qualified proposals. I know that the university community is equally elated at the prospect of bringing together large corporations, small businesses, labour and academics to place Ontario on the leading edge in international research and product marketing.

The selection process itself has been unprecedented in that it has involved co-operation and collaboration among these groups and indeed has relied on external expertise from around the world to review and evaluate the technical and scientific merit of all participants. By this very exercise, I am truly proud that the University of Waterloo, in being designated to participate in five of the seven centres of excellence, will continue to be at the forefront of international competitive activity, a distinction which allows it to remain second to none.

ACQUIRED IMMUNE DEFICIENCY SYNDROME

Mr. Brandt: I rise today to congratulate a company in my riding on

an act of good corporate citizenship. Polysar included in the latest edition of its corporate newsletter a comprehensive booklet entitled, AIDS: Myths and Facts. This booklet, prepared by the Polysar medical department, outlines some of the myths about this serious disease, while at the same time educating about how the disease spreads and how it can be prevented.

This is the type of clear thinking and commonsense approach to this disease that we should all applaud and encourage. Acquired immune deficiency syndrome is a serious health problem and it should be treated as such. Education and dispelling the myths surrounding AIDS are two of the best weapons that we have to fight this illness. I applaud the action taken by Polysar and I urge other employers and institutions to take similar action with respect to their own internal publications.

RECORD OF DEBATES

Mr. Speaker: Last Thursday, the member for St. George (Ms. Fish) raised a point of order bringing to the attention of the House that the printed Hansard for Monday, June 8, contained a correction that went beyond the normal editing practices followed by the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

It was pointed out that the Premier (Mr. Peterson) on that date had used the word "country" instead of the word "province" when speaking about Quebec as reflected in that day's Instant Hansard, but that the printed version had been altered in favour of the word "province."

I undertook to check into the matter and can report to the House that the correction was undertaken solely upon the responsibility of our Hansard branch. The editing practices of our Hansard branch are derived from Westminster practice and call upon editors to correct "errors of fact mentally corrected by those listening."

There is no question that the word used was "country," but Quebec is a province and the editor's decision was to substitute that description of the jurisdiction. I thank the honourable member for St. George for bringing this matter to the attention of the House and the chair. After looking into this matter, I am satisfied that Hansard has acted within the bounds of our practice and that we continue to be very well served.

Mr. Harris: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order: The whole matter of the Hansard reporting is one that --

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Mr. Harris: It is a new point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker: You are challenging my ruling?

Mr. Harris: No, I am not. I have a new point of order, I said. Thank you.

The whole question of Hansard reporting is one that ought to be of a very high concern to all members of this Legislature. I am not referring exclusively to the example that was brought to you, Mr. Speaker. You asked me, do I challenge your ruling: I do not think you made a ruling. I think you reported the facts as we asked you to do and we thank you for that.

However, I would suggest to you that this is a matter this Legislature ought to look into. One vehicle for doing that would be to refer this matter to the standing committee on the Legislative Assembly as to what latitude do our practices allow, by taking a look at some of the examples that are there. Is this, in fact, the latitude that we want to give to others to put into the printed record, in fact what is supposed to be a transcript or the minutes, if you like, of the procedures and the statements that are made in this Legislature?

Now there is a vehicle when somebody inadvertently makes a mistake or says something he did not mean to say; there is a vehicle in Hansard for the actual statement to be printed and to rise to correct the record. That vehicle being there, we have had other examples and this one particularly concerns us.

In the light of that, I would ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether you would refer this matter to the Legislative Assembly committee. In this particular example that was brought to your attention, we are dealing with a Premier (Mr. Peterson) who welcomed Premier Bourassa into Canada; we are talking about a Premier who has demonstrated repeatedly a mindset on his vision of Canada, contrary to the one that the

interpretation by Hansard has placed on his remarks.

I would ask you to refer this matter in general to the Legislative Assembly committee.

Mr. Speaker: I listened very, very carefully, and it is certainly up to this House or to the Speaker to make any suggestion or give anything to the standing committee on the Legislative Assembly to review and consider. I am certain that the chairman was listening very carefully and I am sure that it may be taken under consideration.

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

COMPUTERS IN EDUCATION

Hon. Mr. Conway: The recent speech from the throne committed Ontario schools to provide a curriculum and a learning experience that are relevant and meaningful to all students. As part of that mandate, Ontario schools were challenged to explore the important areas of science and technology.

To help schools meet that challenge, I would like to announce the Ontario Ministry of Education's plans to take advantage of developing computer technology in order to provide Ontario students with wider access to educational software and to a variety of microcomputer systems.

These plans focus on the importance of a software portability environment. A software portability environment is a technological advance that will make it possible for the educational software we have developed to be used on both of Ontario's grant-eligible microcomputer systems, the Icon and the IBM Ednet. As well, a software portability environment anticipates that other microcomputer systems will meet the requirements necessary to become eligible to receive Ontario Ministry of Education grant assistance.

This will ensure that computer systems used in our schools keep pace with new developments in technology and will stimulate the development of educational software that responds to the emerging needs of our students and our teachers. By providing this mechanism whereby all approved educational software packages can be used by computer systems of many potential vendors, the Ontario Ministry of Education is also opening the door to new participation from a wider range of computer developers and vendors.

The technology that supports these computers is dynamic and there have been dramatic changes in technology since the Ontario Ministry of Education --

Mr. Speaker: Order. It is very difficult to hear. There are many private conversations taking place. Rather than having further interjections, it might be -- order.

It is with this in mind that the Ontario Ministry of Education is today releasing its proposed phase II computer requirements to the educational community, software developers and micro-computer vendors. These groups will have until the end of September to suggest ways in which the proposed requirements might be modified to reflect changing trends in technology and the new challenges of the classroom. These suggestions will be carefully considered in the development of a revised document which I expect to make available to the public by December of this year.

By making a commitment to keep pace with the computer industry, we are ensuring that our students will continue to enjoy a stimulating and relevant educational system that is sensitive and attuned to the changing needs of today's modern society.

PENSION BENEFITS

Hon. Mr. Kwinter: I wish to inform the members that I will be introducing motions to amend Bill 170, the Pension Benefits Act, during clause-by-clause review by this House. The majority of the amendments are minor drafting changes to improve the clarity of the bill and to ensure that Ontario has the best possible pension legislation. Many changes are the result of suggestions made during this April's public hearings on the bill before the standing committee on general government.

Among major changes to Bill 170 are the following:

A new

section will be added to the bill to reinforce the government's commitment to inflation protection for pensions. The

section will mandate that pensions be adjusted to provide inflation-related increases. Through this action, we wish to give assurance of the government's firm resolve to introduce mandatory inflation protection. Specifics of the implementation procedures will be recommended by the Task Force on Inflation Protection for Employment Pension Plans, which is due to report by the end of the year.

Section 54, requiring pensions of equal value regardless of marital status, will be deleted. This action is taken due to the almost unanimous opposition of all interest groups, who indicated concerns about the section's practical effect on pension benefits currently being offered to surviving spouses.

Section 32 will be revised to expand pension plan membership criteria for part-time workers. Currently the

section states that part-time employees will be eligible to join a pension plan after two years of service if they have earned at least 35 per cent of the Canada pension plan's year's maximum pensionable earnings, or YMPE, for two consecutive years. This amounts to approximately $9,065 in 1987. The

section will be revised to permit eligibility for part-time workers who either earn 35 per cent of the YMPE or work at least 700 hours per year.

Section 75, dealing with employees' rights when a plan is wound up, will be revised so that it will apply to all plan terminations as of April 1, 1987. It will also provide that, where an employer's consent is required for the purposes of receiving an ancillary benefit on a windup, such consent is deemed to be given. This amendment, which will apply to the Goodyear plant closure in May 1987 and similar circumstances, was previously announced in this House on May 11, 1987.

Subsection 25(1) will be revised and subsection 25(2a) added to permit former members of the plan -- that is, retirees -- to be represented on an advisory committee. Many retiree groups have asked for this change and the government agrees that retirees should have a voice on an advisory committee.

I am pleased that after so much work we have reached the stage of clause-by-clause review of Bill 170. I hope, with the co-operation of the members, we will have speedy passage of the bill so that pension plan members can realize the many important and welcome reforms in this legislation.

RESPONSES

COMPUTERS IN EDUCATION

Ms. Fish: I rise to respond to the extraordinary statement made by the Minister of Education (Mr. Conway) today about computers in education. Advancing computers in education brings to mind the award-winning program I was pleased to see broadcast and developed on TVOntario called Bits and Bytes.

Hon. Mr. Scott: I am glad she is off women's issues, Sean.

Ms. Fish: I think the only bite the Minister of Education will be providing in the school system is a bite from the local taxpayer, particularly with the consistent reduction in priority that this government has given to education expenditure as a percentage of full provincial expenditures and as a percentage of support for local expenditures on public education. In 1986 that level of expenditure hit its lowest level in some 16 years and it has continued to plummet notwithstanding the Treasurer's (Mr. Nixon) trumpeting of a few short weeks ago of his intention to reverse the trend and to expand education expenditure.

This proposal for computers in education might indeed be better received if the minister had taken more seriously the issues of basic skills for the students of this province rather than his proposal about some vague sort of testing, maybe in five, six or seven years, kind of.

Finally, of course, one is put in mind of the fact that computers and tendering are not something the minister has held dear to his heart. Indeed, in excess of 50 per cent of the computer contracts in the Ministry of Government Services are untendered --

Hon. Mr. Scott: Who is your women's issues critic now?

Mr. Gillies: We all do it.

Ms. Fish: -- something that does not seem to bother the minister very much; and, indeed, some excess of 30 per cent of the computer contracts in the Ministry of Education are untendered. In addition to not disturbing the minister in the least, it apparently does not disturb the Premier (Mr. Peterson), apparently does not disturb the Treasurer, apparently does not disturb anybody that massive numbers of untendered contracts in computers are going out.

Mr. Gillies: Ian is disturbed.

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Mr. McClellan: Stop the clock.

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Ms. Fish: The issue before us today is, in part, the question of the standards and the requirements to be met by the various computer companies before they can make proposals to the education system -- evidently make proposals as distinct from tendering, because of course the minister for at least in excess of 30 per cent of his contracts is not very concerned about the tendering side of it.

But even in making proposals one puts the question to the minister: in the light of the recent decision of at least one of the companies previously specified as acceptable for computers in school projects to close its Ontario production plant and to move its operations and production to Korea, will the change in guidelines recognize that kind of move, permit it to occur in tendering, or will the minister in at least this small and modest way require that any proposals that come forward for the educational system, to be reimbursed by the public education dollar, be produced here in Ontario?

PENSION BENEFITS

Mr. Ashe: I rise to respond to the statement by the Minister of Financial Institutions (Mr. Kwinter) regarding Bill 170. Frankly, I am surprised that he would take up the time of the Legislature to make a statement relative to something we will dealing with in committee before the day is out.

In any event, this is, as the minister has identified, a very significant piece of legislation that, frankly, implements many years of negotiation and consensus across Canada that was, frankly, started and finalized by the previous administration. It is funny I did not hear in the minister's statement that really that is what Bill 170 does. I just want to put on the record, Mr. Speaker, that as you notice in here, the minister indicates recognition of inflation protection and is making an amendment accordingly.

I can assure you, Mr. Speaker, that again that particular recognition did not just come out of the blue. We are not satisfied to give the right to the government through regulations to implement whatever final consensus and direction there is to implement some form of inflation protection. We will be making an amendment to indicate to the minister and to the government that they will be obligated to bring an amendment to Bill 170, as it is finally structured, back to this Legislature to be dealt with in the democratic fashion.

Mr. McClellan: I want to respond as well to the statement by the Minister of Financial Institutions on his pension legislation and to note that there are, I think, three changes of heart in the minister's bill that should be acknowledged.

First, the minister has placed mandatory inflation protection into the bill. That is a change of heart from the position he took in the committee when he said it was going to be possible for the Friedland task force to come in with a verdict that inflation protection was, in fact, impossible. I think there has been a major change of heart on the part of the minister and a commitment will be enshrined in Bill 170 stating that pension benefits shall be adjusted to provide inflation-related increases. That is an important gain for ordinary working people.

Second, the minister has indicated that the Family Law Act will prevail over the Pension Benefits Act and that couples will be able to use pension benefits as part of the general assets pool in order to reach amicable negotiated settlements. Again, this is a change of heart on the part of the government. I want to pay tribute to the member for Ottawa Centre (Ms. Gigantes) who has raised this issue in the Legislature and who was planning to move an amendment to do precisely that. I congratulate the minister for taking that initiative in restoring the primacy of the Family Law Act.

Third, the minister has mentioned again that this bill will benefit the Goodyear workers. I want to pay tribute to the member for Lakeshore (Mrs. Grier) for raising that issue repeatedly in the House and to congratulate the government for having the wisdom to incorporate a special provision in the bill that will ensure the Goodyear workers will receive full pension credits upon the passage of this bill.

There are still a number of issues that need to be dealt with. We will be moving our amendments in this House to try to persuade the government to enshrine the principle of full inflation protection to the level of 100 per cent of the consumer price index in the bill, and we will have an opportunity to debate that later today. We have amendments as well to put an end once and for all to the theft of surplus pension funds by corporations. Again, we hope the government will come to its senses and stop the legalized theft of property that belongs to ordinary working people.

The government has a chance to do the right thing. We will see later this afternoon if it is going to take the opportunity or not.

COMPUTERS IN EDUCATION

Mr. Allen: I rise to respond to the Minister of Education's statement with respect to computers in education. I am reminded that today we have had two major events in education in these precincts: first by a new network of public education groups concerned about the inability of the government to live up to its own throne speech objectives; and second, one respecting developments in literacy. They provide a kind of context in which one wants to look at computers in education.

The Ontario Institute for Studies in Education, specialists in this field, was very sceptical of the move of the ministry and the past government into this field. Field operations have raised a lot of questions, as indeed have some recent events. For example, the Icon, which was supposed to be a new specialty in the economy of Ontario when it was introduced, is now produced in Taiwan. One wonders about some of the rest of the program.

For example, I had discussions with a hands-on, very informed principal in my own school system in Hamilton, who had developed for his own school, prior to and during the Icon program, a very impressive delivery program which cost about $6,000. When the Icons were awarded to him, the cost was $35,000 for basically the same operation. One wonders how much is needlessly being spent across the province on the computers in education program.

ORAL QUESTIONS

AUTO PACT

Mr. Pope: My question is to the Premier. There have been some public musings lately about whether the auto pact should be or is on the bargaining table at the free trade talks. I think every party in this Legislature agrees -- certainly, on January 29 every party supported the resolution of the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Grossman) that the auto pact should not and would not be part of the free trade talks.

The auto pact has existed since 1965. It has worked well prior to these talks and we want it to continue after these talks.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order. I find it very difficult; I cannot hear the question. Would the member place the question please.

Mr. Pope: Given the fact that in spite of the public musings, all three parties in this Legislature supported the Leader of the Opposition's resolution last January 29 that the auto pact should not and would not be part of the free trade talks from Ontario's point of view, given the fact that this issue is already decided in this Legislature, that the auto pact has existed since 1965, that it has worked for Canadian interests prior to these trade negotiations and that we want it to continue to work in our interests after these talks, putting aside the issue of the free trade talks, can the Premier confirm that under

article 7 of the auto pact the Americans can terminate the auto pact at any time by giving 12 months' notice?

Hon. Mr. Peterson: Yes.

Mr. Pope: Good. Now that the Premier has at last acknowledged that, the Premier knows --

An hon. member: First point.

Mr. Pope: That is the first point. Now that he has acknowledged that -- and he did not over the past three weeks -- in the face of the comments emanating from the Governor of Michigan since last September that the auto pact in its present form is unacceptable, in the face of the United Auto Workers' comments -- l guess thanks to Bob White -- that it wants the auto pact renegotiated or cancelled, in the face of the those challenges, what is he doing in the United States to protect Ontario's jobs and Ontario's interests?

Let me say to my honourable friend that this has been a matter of some considerable discussion here, in Washington and in a variety of other places. I am aware of the musings by Mr. Merkin, Senator Levin, Congressman Levin, Mr. Blanchard, Congressman Dingell and others with respect to the auto pact.

I understand, as the member does, that there is some discomfiture with it in some quarters in the United States at the present time because, as he knows and I know, Canada is running a surplus at the present time. I do not hesitate to point out to them that over the life of that agreement, over the last 20 or 25 years, it has come out about net, net.

The member will recall there was a time when we were running a deficit under the auto pact and his leader suggested then that we renegotiate the auto pact, he will recall, so I am glad he has clearly stated his view on the matter.

I have discussed this with senior officials in the automotive industry here as well as in the US. Even though there is some disgruntlement by gentlemen he has mentioned and I have mentioned, I would hope that together we could impress upon everyone concerned the seriousness and importance of that document, not just for Canada but for all of North America.

Mr. Pope: We do not need to be told by the Premier that there is some concern by the Americans over the auto pact. This has been going on for a year and he has not done anything about it. That is the concern we have. He has not done anything about it. He can make all the personal observations he wants. There are 285,000 jobs at stake on this issue. We want to know what he has done to protect those jobs. So far he has told us nothing and I presume that is what he has done: nothing.

This is the same government that sold out 1,000 softwood lumber workers in northern Ontario in a written document that he refused to make public last September and it came out only six months later.

Mr. Speaker: Final supplementary?

Mr. Pope: What is he doing to protect those jobs in Ontario? Never mind the diatribe -- what is he doing to help those workers?

Hon. Mr. Peterson: With respect, to my honourable friend, I think he continues to misinterpret the softwood lumber discussion and he may want to direct some of his venom and his strong remarks to his kissing cousins in Ottawa, who are the ones who made the decision. Whether or not they take his views seriously on this matter is something for them to determine.

As I said, we have discussed this with a great variety of interests in the US. I believe the federal government, hopefully, is on side that it should not be changed in this matter. I have also discussed this with my colleagues. Roger Smith, the chairman of General Motors, has called the auto pact the greatest instrument of trade policy in the history of the world. In other words, there is a substantial element that does support it. Our job is to gather those up, and I believe there is no risk at the present time of a unilateral cancellation.

My worry is that the federal negotiators, perhaps under pressure from the Americans, may want to alter it or subtly gut the auto pact, and we cannot stand situations that either directly or indirectly change that auto pact. We need the tariff protection that surrounds it and I hope I can take the view to the federal negotiators that this House stands united that no one should try to get around that pact directly or indirectly.

Ms. Fish: The Premier knows that the leader of the official opposition opposed the inclusion of the auto pact in any free trade talks and represented so right from the start. Is that another correction of Hansard we are going to see?

Mr. Speaker: Order. To the Minister of Education?

Ms. Fish: Yes, through you, Mr. Speaker.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order. The Minister of Agriculture and Food (Mr. Riddell) and the member for Brantford (Mr. Gillies) could continue their conversation somewhere else if they wish, but the member for St. George has a question to the Minister of Education.

EDUCATION FUNDING

Ms. Fish: On March 28, 1985, in Sudbury, the Premier (Mr. Peterson) made a commitment that should he form a government in this province he would restore a 60 per cent level of provincial support to local education expenditures. In view of the fact that in 1986 the level of provincial support fell to its lowest point in 16 years, to 44.9 per cent, and in 1987, notwithstanding the many promises by the Treasurer (Mr. Nixon), appears to have fallen again to 42.7 per cent, can he tell this House when he, as Minister of Education, intends to implement the Premier's promise to restore the level to 60 per cent?

Hon. Mr. Conway: The lady from St. George, the newly appointed critic for Education, began her question by observing that we know where the leader of the Tory party stands. I do not know that we can say that, because I was reading the other day a statement by former Premier William Davis, who told the Tory fund-raiser last week, and I quote -- he was speaking of the Tory leader's "willingness to simply accept the status quo being good enough."

That is what Bill Davis of Brampton says of the Tory leader. Who am I to quarrel with the former Tory Premier of Ontario?

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order. The member for Sarnia.

Mr. Brandt: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker: The member knows full well that is a misprint in a magazine. I think it is detestable that he brings it up. He knows full well that is the case.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order. We will just wait, if you want to waste the time this way. We will just wait.

Mr. Harris: This is the sleazy government that changes Hansard, that changes the rules.

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Hon. Mr. Conway: The members opposite are obviously very sensitive. They stand up every day and correct the record on everyone else's account. I just drew attention to that because I think it is very important for the member.

I want to say to the member for Nipissing (Mr. Harris) that this government, under the leadership of the Premier (Mr. Peterson) and the Treasurer (Mr. Nixon), has over the last two years substantially improved the funding to education in Ontario. We have tripled the capital allocations for next year over the last year of the Tory administration.

Miss Stephenson: Oh no, you have not.

Hon. Mr. Conway: For the visitor from York Mills, we have substantially improved the cash flow to school boards, something about which they long complained. Our grants are well above inflation, and we have given education not only the kind of financial support but also the kind of priority that we believe it deserves in our modern society. We are very proud of our record and we are quite prepared to stand our record against the record of the previous regime.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order. We will just wait, if you do not want any questions. We will just wait.

Ms. Fish: I guess, Minister, it is an issue of credibility, an issue of whether the Premier's word is any good. Apparently, it is not good with respect to Hansard choosing to correct "country" to "province" on a direct question surrounding immigration and constitutional reform, but this is a question about his word respecting the specific increase in restoration to 60 per cent support by the province to local educational expenditures.

The support that has occurred from the minister's government, under that same Premier, has declined steadily in two years. Indeed, as a proportion of government expenditure it has reduced again to its lowest point, to 10.6 per cent in 1987-88 down from 15.3 per cent.

In an attempt to get past the minister's blunderbuss, my question is a simple one. When will he live up to his Premier's word, if indeed it is good, and restore to 60 per cent the provincial level of funding for education?

Hon. Mr. Conway: Methinks the honourable lady doth protest too much, particularly about blunderbuss. I have to say to my friend from St. George that when one looks at 1987, one sees the Ontario government's share of approved educational expenditures at about 55 per cent; not bad at all. Yes, we have a distance yet to go. We are not going to be able to correct the damage done by the lady from York Mills overnight.

I went to say that when one looks at not just the 55 per cent of approved expenditures but also at the capital account -- there have been members across the way come to me and say, "Minister, will you please build that school that our government did not find its way to build?" I will not be any more specific than that. They have found much more success in recent months than they ever found with their own colleagues. To be sure, more remains to be done, and as a government that has a strong commitment to public education we intend to do more. I invite the support of the honourable member in that very important responsibility.

Ms. Fish: The minister's patronizing response does disservice to the ratepayers, the parents and the children within the educational system of this province.

Mr. Speaker: And the question?

Ms. Fish: The minister now chooses to obfuscate the issue by referring to approved educational expenditures. The minister knows that virtually every board in this province, from the richest to the poorest, has expenditures in excess of the approved ceilings, responding to the direct and immediate need of expenditure to educate our young people. The minister also knows that as a consistent percentage of that expenditure, the provincial share has declined and has continued to decline under this minister and this Premier to its lowest level now in 1987.

Mr. Speaker: And the question is?

Ms. Fish: The question is, is the minister, instead of restoring the 60 per cent, the provincial level of support to education, thereby giving the lie to his Premier's word, intending now to hide behind the skirts of the artificially low ceiling of approved educational expenditures?

Hon. Mr. Conway: I warn the honourable lady she might offend the parliamentary sensibilities of the House leader of the official opposition with the vernacular she is indulging in this afternoon. We do not want to upset the opposition House leader with that kind of language, do we?

I just want to say that we are this year, in fiscal 1987-88, spending something like $9 billion a year, $47 million a day. The honourable lady seems to be suggesting that we as a government commit ourselves to 60 per cent of the clear blue Ontario sky. Is that her suggestion? Is that her party's view? Certainly that does not seem to me to make very much fiscally responsible sense.

We are saying as a government that today we are funding 55 per cent of approved expenditures, and we are looking at a major report on educational finance that indicates a variety of creative ways and possibilities to address a number of the structural difficulties about which there is some concern, and I have to tell the honourable lady from St. George that we have a strong commitment --

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order. New question, the member for York South.

AUTO PACT

Mr. Rae: My question to the Premier is about the auto pact. He will know that the question of tariff reduction across the board as it affects the auto pact is really the central problem. He will know full well that if tariffs are reduced overall and eliminated overall, as now appears to be the objective of the talks of both governments, that will effectively "reduce the auto pact to a shell," to quote the words of the memorandum.

The Premier stated on June 3 that as far as he was concerned the auto pact was not on the table: this is 1986, over a year ago. He said the same thing in November 1986. He said the same thing again this week. Yet the fact remains that it is clear the auto pact has been on the table all that time, as has the question of tariff reduction.

The question I have is simply this: just what is it going to take for the Premier to have some impact on these discussions, and has his position throughout been that tariff reduction should not apply specifically to the auto pact?

Hon. Mr. Peterson: The member is absolutely right in his analysis. I express to him a concern that a reduction of tariffs surrounding the auto pact would render that, as the member and others have said, a shell, so we cannot have anyone adopt a sneaky or devious way around the situation. The tariffs with respect to the auto industry must remain intact to protect that document. Without them, it is virtually worthless, as my honourable friend says.

That is clearly the position of this government and, I assume, the position of this Legislature, that has been forcefully put to the federal government and anyone else who would listen.

Mr. Rae: The Premier says that has been forcefully put. Let me just say to the Premier that what he has said today is not in fact what he has said on other occasions with respect to the auto pact. He is shaking his head. I have been through Hansard trying to figure out where he stands on these things and I have not found that clear statement from him or from a member of his cabinet.

It is perfectly clear that no one has been listening for the entire time. The Premier says this is Ontario's position as of last June, Ontario's position as of November and Ontario's position today. Surely he must understand that in fact what has been on the table since the very beginning has been an overall reduction in the level of tariffs across the board. That is what these discussions have been all about.

Since that has been the sum total of these discussions since they were established by the Prime Minister, I would like to ask the Premier why he has been so silent and why he has continued to condone ongoing discussions when it is perfectly obvious that that is precisely what has been going on right behind his back.

Hon. Mr. Peterson: My honourable friend has more experience with people who do not listen than I do.

I do not agree with my honourable friend's analysis in this particular situation. We have been clear and consistent throughout. There are no changes in that.

The member is responding today and asking questions; as he has every right to do, based on Mr. Merkin's document from the United States. That does not concern me nearly as much as the clear position of the Canadian administration concerns me. When I read that memo, I had equal concerns with my colleague opposite.

I chatted with the Prime Minister yesterday and I told him that as far as I am concerned, and I have told him many other times before, it requires a clear and unequivocal statement from the federal government that the auto pact as it exists will not be touched -- it is that clear and simple and that includes the tariff protection that surrounds it and gives it meaning.

Mr. Rae: I guess the question I have for the Premier is: just where has he been? Surely he understands that the whole thrust of the Mulroney initiative from the very beginning has been about the overall reduction of tariffs and the elimination of tariffs between Canada and the United States. That has been the given of the discussions from day one.

I wonder if the Premier can explain why Ontario has sat back basically with its hands in its pockets throughout these discussions. Occasionally it has voiced a general concern about what is happening to the auto pact, but it has let this basically go on. The Premier stated over a year ago exactly what he is stating today, yet as he says it today, as he discusses it today, everybody in Canada except the Premier knows that what Simon Reisman and Peter Murphy are discussing is the elimination of tariffs across the board.

What is it going to take for the Premier to understand that Ontario's position has to be to stop these talks in their tracks because they are going to destroy the auto pact in this province?

Hon. Mr. Peterson: I say with great respect to my friend opposite that his analysis is not correct of where Ontario has been in the stating of our position in very specific terms on these matters.

Now I understand my honourable friend opposite would like to throw a bomb in the middle of the talks. He would have done it a year ago. He does not believe any discussions should have taken place. Ontario could have walked away, but they would have gone on anyway, as my honourable friend knows.

I understand the member's ideological position on this matter, but he has to understand in very clear terms where Ontario stands. Ontario has been a very forceful and well-informed advocate, not just for Ontario's interest but for the national interest in these discussions and will continue to play that role.

CONSTITUTIONAL ACCORD

Mr. Rae: I have a question for the Premier on another major issue of national importance, and that is the question of the Meech Lake accord.

The Premier will know that Prime Minister Mulroney gave an interview to the Canadian Press -- it was quoted in the Globe and Mail this morning -- in which the Prime Minister states categorically it is his view that the Premiers agreed to sell the Meech Lake accord as it was specifically worded and as they specifically signed it -- that is precisely what all the parties to the agreement agreed to -- and that as far as he was concerned, there were not going to be changes with respect to multiculturalism, native rights and the admission of new provinces into Confederation.

I wonder if the Premier can tell us whether that is also his understanding of what was agreed to.

Hon. Mr. Peterson: l read that article. It is interesting to read the

article as compared to the headline; I think they differ a little bit in terms of the nuance; but I am not here to justify what he said or did not say. Let me tell the member my very clear understanding of the matter.

As the process entered the formal stage -- i.e., the formal discussions in the Legislature with a formal resolution to discuss -- obviously something had to be committed to paper, and we did that at Langevin. But I think the Prime Minister said then, and I assume it is the case today, that if there are some egregious errors or if we find some major flaw, then it has the capacity to be changed. Hence, the public hearings, both federally, which we pushed for, as you know, and in this province.

As I read it, it is not as if they are looking for change in some other area of constitutional reform -- that will be kept for a later day -- but, with respect to the items we discussed, if there are improvements that can be made, it is still possible to do; not easy to do, as you know, because it would require the approval of all 10 Legislatures and one Parliament, but it is possible to do.

Mr. Rae: The Premier refers to headlines. I am going to refer directly to the body of the article: "He said" -- that is referring to Mr. Mulroney -- "the provincial Premiers pledged in the early hours of June 3 to defend the wording of the agreement and that he fully expects them to do so." Is that what the Premier pledged? Is that what the Premier is intending to do?

Hon. Mr. Peterson: I am very comfortable with the wording, obviously, or I would not have signed it. If the member has some better ideas on wording that can get national agreement, then we will have a discussion about that I am comfortable with the wording, and I think we have achieved a substantial number of things thereby

Mr. Rae: I say with the greatest respect to the Premier that he is speaking out of both sides of his mouth at the same time, for which I want to offer him some physical congratulations with respect to the physiology of his feat. However, I say to him that in terms of the substance of what is at stake here, he really is giving off two totally different messages.

He is saying that he is personally, and that his government is personally, committed to every jot, every word, every expression in the Meech Lake accord, and then he is saying that the government is also committed to a hearings process. This is a minority parliament. The Premier understands that. The Legislature is supposed to be having hearings in the fall. He may not like it, but it is true.

The Legislature is supposed to be having hearings, and may well come up with suggestions, mandated by the Legislature itself, for a change in wording to include native rights, to include expression of support for multiculturalism, to perhaps change the question of the admission of new provinces into Confederation.

My question to the Premier is this: precisely what is the Premier committed to? Is the Premier committed to a process that says we are ongoing in the process of constitutional reform, or is he saying that he personally is committed to the precise wording which he agreed to on June 3? Which is it? It cannot be both.

Hon. Mr. Peterson: I do not see the difficulty. However, I guess my honourable friend would like me to come here with some fuzzy ideas, and say: "Here are a bunch of ideas, ladies and gentlemen. Fool around with them, and we will go back." Does the member not understand that we have to have something specific? As I told my honourable friend opposite, I am comfortable with that.

The member is quite right. We are in a minority House. This will come in front of hearings of all members of the Legislature. If it does not have the support of at least the majority of this Legislature, I would have to take those ideas that did have the support of the majority back to the other parliaments, back to the other provinces and the federal government and say, "Look, this is Ontario's position." They would have to put it through.

As the member knows, any province has a right to block this situation, so we have committed ourselves to hearings. But if I had come in with a bunch of half-baked ideas, a few ill-formed thoughts, as sometimes one hears in this Legislature, and the member said, "Let us all figure it out, boys," imagine what this minority House would do with that.

I say to the member, if it can be improved, we are interested in the ideas. The member may have some ideas. Others may have some ideas. I intend to have a fun and meaningful hearing here. It must have the support of the House. If it does not, then obviously it will not go back to Ottawa.

AUTO PACT

Mr. Pope: Once again, on federal-provincial matters, the Premier says one thing privately and quite another thing publicly to the people of this province. He has been caught again, just like he was on softwood lumber. He has been caught again.

Mr. Speaker: The question?

Mr. Pope: The Premier, in answer to the first question today, indicated that he was "holding discussions" -- those are his words -- with the auto companies and the unions with respect to the auto pact.

What is the Premier discussing? What concessions is he making? What deals is he making? What guarantees is he giving them? What is he discussing? He just said he was discussing the auto pact privately with the companies and the unions. What concessions is he giving?

Hon. Mr. Peterson: I am not sure who is writing my honourable friend's questions, but let me try to respond to that. He is quite right; we are in very close contact with the Canadian Auto Workers, the auto parts industry and the major assemblers, and by and large, we have been able to speak with one voice.

We had a meeting, I guess three weeks to a month ago, where we put forward a position, unanimously held by all the members, to put this to the federal government with respect to overall federal automotive policy, particularly as it relates to off-North American imports; because as members know, that is in the federal domain, it needs their blessing, and indeed it needs their leadership in that particular matter.

We have tried to impress that point upon M. Côté and the Prime Minister, the significance of this industry to the country as a whole. I believe it is the most important document we have in this country and the most important industry, and it must be protected. But with respect to negotiating on the free trade discussions or any concessions, that is nonsense. I do not know where my honourable friend picked up that idea.

Mr. Pope: If the Premier would listen to the question, he might have less difficulty answering it. I was talking about the auto pact, not free trade. He said he was having discussions with the auto industry and the unions with respect to the auto pact. He still has not told us.

Is the Premier telling me that the only subject matter of his meeting was to reinforce the importance of the industry, something that everyone in this country knows about, with 285,000 jobs? All he has discussed is the importance of the industry? Is that it from the Premier of Ontario, who is supposed to be protecting jobs and the industry in Ontario? What is he doing with his time?

Was he apprised in the course of those meetings of the impending Magna decision not to go ahead with the plant in Pickering? Was he advised as to the layoffs in Windsor? Did he accede to them? Is that part of his concession? Was that part of his deal, to cut down on employment in Ontario in the context of pressure on the auto pact? What is he doing to the workers of Ontario?

Mr. Speaker: Order. There are quite a number of questions there.

Hon. Mr. Peterson: It is the strangest set of questions I have ever had in this House and, believe me, I have had many strange questions from the honourable member opposite. But again, he is barking up the wrong tree.

We discussed and, obviously, reasserted the importance of the auto pact, how the integrity must be kept inherent in that matter and that we have to impress upon the federal government the need for an overall, national automotive policy. That is what we discussed and all agreed upon.

My honourable friend has difficulty comprehending that, but I can tell him that is what transpired, and I invite him to talk to Mr. White or any of the automotive assemblers or any of the parts people. We all speak with one voice. My honourable friend is the only person who is perhaps speaking with a different voice.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order. The member for Nickel Belt would like to ask a question.

FEDERAL TAX REFORM PROPOSALS

Mr. Laughren: I have a question for the Treasurer. The Treasurer will know that with Mr. Wilson's white paper on tax reform, Ontario's revenues will be increased about $500 million over the next five years through taxation sharing and established programs financing.

Would the Treasurer agree that, after those proposals and in view of his statements that he wants a fairer tax system, having single persons at the poverty level in Ontario still paying over $400 a year in provincial income tax and a family of four at the poverty level paying over $300 in provincial income tax is plainly and simply unfair? Will he make a commitment now to remove people at the poverty level from the burden of paying provincial income tax?

As a matter of fact, in the second year, when there is no additional speed-up -- it counts only for one year -- we go behind by $13 million and then the net effects of changes in the corporation tax start paying off for the province.

I think he is also aware of the necessity of our having corporate tax rates that are competitive with the American states, and that he is as interested as anyone in attracting industry into this jurisdiction. We hope it is Canadian-owned and controlled. We also hope that foreign investment is going to continue to come in here, at least in some degree. We are very competitive right now, and I hope we can maintain that competitive stance vis-à-vis our corporation income tax in the future.

I perhaps will let that go.

Mr. Laughren: The Treasurer is on the cutting edge of state-of-the-art rhetoric, I must say. The Treasurer will know that Finance Minister Wilson indicated that he was going to cap the capital gains exemptions at $100,000. The Treasurer indicated yesterday that this was in keeping with his recommendations or the recommendations of his government at least.

That will cost the Ontario Treasury, by our calculations, about $200 million a year. Given the fact that it is costing this Treasury that kind of money, will the Treasurer make a commitment to make that kind of commitment to Ontario's low-income people and working poor by enriching the tax credits by that amount and by eliminating Ontario health insurance plan premiums for Ontario's working poor?

Hon. Mr. Nixon: I think the honourable member will know that, in the budget just read to the House three or four weeks ago, we reduced the requirements from low-income people and seniors by about a quarter of a million dollars, more than the money that he is talking about. We paid that bill really before the situation that he describes came about, and we do not think that is enough.

I admire the honourable member for urging us to do more, and we hope that we can in the future; but as far as we are concerned, we think we have done all we can for this fiscal year. We are trying to do one budget at a time with as much forward planning having to do with improving our grants to education, post-secondary education, municipalities and hospitals as is practical under these circumstances.

Mr. Speaker: The Attorney General has a response to a question previously asked by the member for Oakville (Mr. O'Connor).

HUMAN RIGHTS

Hon. Mr. Scott: Yesterday the member for Oakville asked me if the little girl who is an altar girl at Sacré-Coeur Church had the right to make application under the Human Rights Code for relief. I said I would inquire into that. I have now done so and have ascertained that the little girl, like any other person in Ontario, is entitled to allege to the Ontario Human Rights Commission that she has been discriminated against.

Her allegation would be made under

section 4 of the Human Rights Code. If the respondent, who might be the church, or an officer of the church, cared to respond, its response would be made under

section 17 or 23. The tribunal created by the Human Rights Code would then determine the facts and make a determination as to whether discrimination, justifiable or unjustifiable, had occurred. The matter could then be reviewed by a court in the normal way.

Mr. O'Connor: Perhaps the minister did not say it yesterday because that was not the question. I did not ask him the question as to whether the Human Rights Code applied or not. I, in fact, do not think it does.

My question yesterday was, and I will repeat it again today: given the blatant discrimination that exists in this situation, which I would suggest would be admitted even by the church, which would probably then justify it on the basis of canon law, does he feel it is appropriate in modem-day Ontario that a young girl or women should be discriminated against in this fashion by an institution of the magnitude and importance of the Catholic Church?

Does he not feel that he should at least use his moral suasion or the power of his office to suggest to them, not in a legal fashion -- l do not think the Human Rights Code does apply, nor should it apply -- but does he not feel that he should at least exert some influence, some moral suasion on the situation to have the church see that there is this discrimination and that something might be done by it voluntarily in the circumstances?

Hon. Mr. Scott: Just so we have it clear, the question was whether I would determine whether the complaint was subject to the Human Rights Code, and I think I have answered that question.

My friend apparently wants to know now if I care to express any view which might affect the Ontario Human Rights Commission. He knows perfectly well I would not do that and neither would he. If he is asking me to attend with him on the Cardinal, if he will be good enough to make the appointment I will be delighted to go with him.

Mr. Gillies: I have a question for the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Mr. Gillies: I caution the Attorney General, it might be difficult to get the last word on this one.

TRADE WITH UNITED STATES

Mr. Gillies: I have a question to the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology. Again, the question is about the very muddled signals that we are getting from this government on the question of Canada-US trade.

Last week, the minister spoke to the annual conference of the Ontario Institute of Chartered Accountants and he said two things in that speech. The minister said: "The Canadian government has made clear its basic goal in the talks. The goal is secure and broader access to the American markets. The Ontario government supports that goal'' The minister also said. "Negotiations always involve tradeoffs -- giving up something to gain something."

My question to the minister is, in view of the caveats that are being expressed by other members of his administration about the free trade talks, could he tell the House exactly what it is that he is willing to give up in order to see the trade talks succeed?

Hon. Mr. O'Neil: It is just a shame that the member does not have time to read the whole speech because I think a lot of that was explained in the latter part of the speech, that there are going to have to be tradeoffs, we are looking at those tradeoffs and what we are being asked to do. We are certainly not going to agree to any trade agreement until we know what those are.

Will the minister specifically tell us what is on the block, what jobs are on the block and what arrangements he is making for the transition towards free trade which he so generously embraces?

Hon. Mr. O'Neil: Again, if the member had time to read the whole speech, I think -- he is not really taking from context -- that speech is very plain about all the questions that we have asked as a government, the things that we originally raised which a lot of the other provinces did not and things that we are going to safeguard for this province.

Mr. Gillies: What are they? Tell us.

Mr. Speaker: The member for Oakwood is waiting patiently. New question.

HERITAGE LANGUAGES

Mr. Grande: My question is for the Premier before he leaves. My question to the Premier has to do with the attitude that this government has towards multicultural Ontario. In the last week or so, an ad has appeared in 15 ethnic newspapers across this province, an ad entitled Heritage Languages Programs of Ontario, in which the Ministry of Education explains to the ethnic communities this yellow paper entitled Ontario Heritage Languages Program.

Hon. Mr. Peterson: Let me refer that to the Minister of Education, who is responsible.

Hon. Mr. Conway: I want to say to my friend the member for Oakwood that we did, in response to a lot of interest in the community, place those ads. I might add I was happy to receive an invitation from CBC Radio the other day, which I think the honourable member is aware of, to go on the air last Thursday to speak at length about the proposals we have introduced.

I want to make very clear that this government is very anxious to put that proposal before the community. We have made no effort to do anything but encourage a wide dissemination and certainly a broadly based discussion. I am very pleased that the honourable member has seen the ads and I am absolutely confident they will encourage a better understanding of what the government intends to do to improve, enrich and expand the very successful heritage language program we have in many school boards across the province.

Mr. Grande: Of course, the minister does not answer the question and I assume the minister does not have an answer to that question.

It is too bad the Premier decided not to answer the question because my next supplementary had to do with another ministry of the government, but I will go with a supplementary to the Minister of Education since that is the way the Premier deemed it to be.

The difficulty, and the reason the document is in the two official languages, is of course that I wanted to get the paper out. It delayed the process some time just to have those advertisements prepared -- trans-created, I think, is the language. I am quite prepared to do all I can to encourage the dissemination. It will of course require the expenditure of additional dollars, but if the House wishes it, I am more than pleased to do so. I am prepared, as I was last Thursday, to go on CHIN Radio in the morning and on CBC Radio in the afternoon to put one position to the entire community.

ONTARIO STUDENT ASSISTANCE PROGRAM

Mr. Eves: I have a question of the Minister of Colleges and Universities. In response to a question of mine in the Legislature on June 11, the minister said that if there was a problem with the Ontario student assistance program currently in place for single parents, he was going to change it.

Can the minister tell us what steps he has taken to change the current inadequate, and I might add discriminatory, OSAP provisions for single parents?

Hon. Mr. Sorbara: First, the system is not discriminatory. Second, the system is an alternative. Every student who is currently registered can use the new model of all grant, no loan or the old model of part grant,

part loan. Third, we are looking at it. We are determining if any student is aggrieved and cannot take advantage of the appeal procedure, and if so we are going to ensure that student has the financial resources to attend a college or a university, if qualified.

Mr. Eves: It would make far more sense for the minister just to change the policy. It has already been pointed out that he was on Metro Morning about two weeks ago with Joan Wilson. She explained to him that she had a problem. He has received several letters -- l have a copy of one here -- from other concerned students.

I quote from this one: "By some twisted rationalization process, OSAP is suggesting that they are helping single parents by saving them from burdensome debts. I can only conclude that this is a weak and twisted excuse for their blatant discrimination against a predominantly female group because of their status of being single with children."

Can the minister explain to this House why single parents, most of whom are women, will be getting less money under his new plan and why the Ontario Advisory Council on Women's Issues has asked the Ontario Human Rights Commission to initiate a complaint against his ministry because of this discriminatory practice?

Hon. Mr. Sorbara: If my friend the member for Parry Sound would do a little more investigation in his capacity as critic for the Ministry of Colleges and Universities, he would know that one of the very serious problems of students leaving college or university after a number of years of study is that they are saddled with very substantial debt loads.

Mr. Harris: So let us not give them any money; if we do not give them any money, then they do not have to pay it back.

Mr. R. F. Johnston: Read the Hansard, my friend.

Mr. Speaker: Order. The member for Nipissing and the member for Scarborough West, order.

Mr. R. F. Johnston: I told Bette Stephenson in 1979 and somebody should tell you now, sir, we do not need patronizing attitudes.

Mr. Speaker: The member for Scarborough West does not have the floor.

Hon. Mr. Sorbara: My friend the member for Scarborough West is calling it patronizing.

Mr. Speaker: Response?

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order. There may be some other members who would like to ask questions.

EDUCATION FUNDING

Mr. Allen: I would like to come back to the Minister of Education on the question raised by the member for St. George (Ms. Fish), who I see has retired from the fray after that shouting match.

The minister will know that two important events took place today on these grounds. One was a media conference by a new network of teachers, directors and trustees in the public education system and the second was a literacy conference held under a tent out on the front lawn.

What we have heard today is essentially this: that this superbly wealthy province ranks fifth in per pupil expenditures in education in the elementary and secondary panel. It is second to last among the provinces in the spending of personal income on education. In the latest figures, the provincial share of education costs have gone down two percentage points from the last budget announcement, to 42.7 per cent, and only $35 per functionally illiterate adult is spent on literacy programs in Ontario.

Can I not press upon the minister the seriousness of those statistics and ask him --

Mr. Speaker: Order. Do you have a question?

Mr. Allen: I said, "Can I not press upon" --

Mr. Speaker: Please do.

Mr. Allen: Can I not press upon him the seriousness of those statistics? Would it not be better for all concerned for him to do something about those statistics rather than to hold the party --

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Mr. R. F. Johnston: You cannot let the Premier get away with his

preambles and cut that off. Very selective.

Hon. Mr. Conway: I appreciate the honourable member's concern. He has, over his time in this Legislature --

Mr. R. F. Johnston: You smile when the Premier does his little bit, Mr. Speaker. All you do is smile.

Mr. Speaker: I would remind all members that interjections are out of order. Would the minister respond?

Hon. Mr. Conway: I repeat, I appreciate the honourable member's concern. He has been one of the most vocal advocates of an appropriate level of funding from the province for public education. I just want to say that the data contained in the document from the Ontario Public Education Network, to which the honourable member makes reference, in some respects are very incomplete. It is projection.

I want to repeat to the member, I like to think in our time in office we have moved forward on a number of fronts. More remains to be done, to be sure. As I said earlier today, we are now providing some 55 per cent of the approved expenditures. We have a report that suggests a variety of changes that might inject more equity and fairness.

l conclude by drawing everyone's attention to the fact that if we were today to commit this province to 60 per cent of expenditures we would have to find an additional $1.1 billion.

Mr. Allen: The absolute statistics the minister uses may be correct; the relative ones of myself and the member for St. George may be correct. When you split the difference, the province is not moving anywhere, let alone forward.

Since the minister is not picking up the large question, may I put a small question to him? Last fall, when he instituted a $1,900 per adult student expenditure level for the adult education delivery service in this province, he grandfathered those boards -- northern boards, rural boards and Catholic boards -- which have very high overhead expenditures, and allowed their costs for the rest of the year until August 31.

However, the minister's research team, at-tempting to establish the real costs of adult education in this province, has not completed the work and now those boards will be dropped off the end --

Mr. Speaker: The question?

Mr. Allen: -- they will be reduced to the standard figure. Will the minister give a commitment to this House today that he will immediately reinstate the actual expenditures of those boards as legitimate costs going to the Ministry of Education as a symbolic gesture of the same things he was talking about outside this afternoon?

Hon. Mr. Conway: I have tried, as we have looked at the funding to which the member makes specific reference, to do what the school community requested. I indicated when I made that change some months ago that we would, on the basis of additional research, try to find a more permanent formula that covered the actual costs of delivering those particular programs.

As the honourable member knows, I am a very reasonable person. I want to say in a very special way to my friend the member for Hamilton West that I will take his advice into particularly serious consideration because I know of his very strong commitment to this whole public policy area.

I also want him to recognize that the resources of Ontario are not limitless. This year, as I said to my friend the member for St. George, we are spending $9 billion, both provincially and locally, to educate some 1.85 million elementary and secondary students.

I also want to note that as we look at the challenge of education it is not just a matter of additional money, although that is an important component. There are other very significant questions, such as those the honourable member knows in terms of renewing our teaching professions, student assessment, better access, all of those things.

WINTARIO TRAVEL GRANTS

Mr. Rowe: I have a question of the Minister of Tourism and Recreation. On Monday, June 15, I asked him why he cut back provincial government funding for the Provincial Women's Softball Association of Ontario. In response to this inquiry I made on behalf of this important sports group and the member for Erie (Mr. Haggerty), the minister said, "I can assure the member they have not been cut back."

Since I do not want to have to accuse the minister of misleading the House, I wonder if he would like to try and answer my question again today.

Hon. Mr. Eakins: When the honourable member asked me the question the other day we were referring, I think, in my reply, to some of the school sports being supported by our ministry. I said at that time they had not been cut back and indeed that some $30,000 had been added to that program.

There are other programs in which we have provided funding. Many of those programs have not been cut back, but we provide a lump sum to that particular program and it is distributed from within that program by the people involved.

Mr. Rowe: I was not discussing school sports then and I am not now. I am talking about the Provincial Women's Softball Association.

Given that response, can the minister explain why Paul Finley, a sports consultant with the Ministry of Tourism and Recreation, told the executive members of Softball Ontario last month that their Wintario travel grants would be cut from 50 per cent in 1986 to 27 per cent in 1987? That is a drop of 13 per cent, and it sure sounds like misleading information to me.

Hon. Mr. Eakins: I will review the figures the honourable member has given. I can assure him it will not be cut from 50 per cent to 27 per cent.

[Later]

Mr. Rowe: I rise to correct the record. In my question to the Minister of Tourism and Recreation, I stated that Wintario travel grants would be cut from 50 per cent in 1986 to 27 per cent in 1987 and I stated a drop of 13 per cent. To correct the record, it is a drop of 23 per cent.

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

Mr. Swart: My question is to the Minister of Financial Institutions and it follows up on the revelation by my leader yesterday about the tremendous increased profits of the insurance companies, particularly at a time when the motorists and other insurees in this province are suffering excessive rates and great injustices.

Is the minister aware that the same Statscan figures from which those great increases of the insurance companies' profits came show that while the total premium income over the last two years was up 39 per cent, the total of claims paid out was up only 17 per cent? Would he not agree that gives the lie to the insurance company statements that massive claims increases are forcing up the premiums in an unconscionable way?

Hon. Mr. Kwinter: The member continually raises these questions, and I am saying we have a solution. Support our rate review board. It will be able to examine all these areas and it will be able to make a determination. That is what it will be there for.

PETITIONS

THERAPEUTIC ABORTIONS

Mr. Pollock: I have a petition which reads:

"To the Lieutenant Governor and the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"We, the undersigned, do hereby petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to reject the recommendations of the Powell study. We understand that this study recommends the opening of government-run abortion clinics. We believe that there are already too many abortions done in this province and would like to see access restricted and not made easier."

It is signed by 53 people from the southern part of my riding.

CONSOLIDATION OF SCHOOLS

Mr. Hennessy: I have a petition which reads:

"We, the undersigned taxpayers and concerned parents, reject the decision made by the school trustee committee regarding south zone rural school consolidation on the meeting of May 12, 1987. That decision being that Blake and Slate River schools be consolidated in one school situated at the Slate River school site, and that Riverdale, Vickers Heights, Rosslyn Village and Rosslyn Road schools be consolidated in one large school of approximately 462 students at the Rosslyn Road school site. We ask that the school board consider this and other petitions presented before making its final decision."

I am presenting this to the Minister of Education, hoping that he will look into the matter. It is signed by approximately 400 people of Thunder Bay in the riding of Fort William. I am sending it over to the minister at the present time.

Mr. Speaker: There are quite a number of private conversations. They may be necessary but they are quite noisy.

NATUROPATHY

Mr. Sheppard: I have a petition to the Lieutenant Governor and the Legislative Assembly of Ontario which reads:

"We, the undersigned, beg leave to petition the parliament of Ontario as follows:

"Whereas it is our constitutional right to have available and to choose the health care system of our preference;

"And

whereas naturopathy has had self-governing status in Ontario for more than 42 years;

"We petition the Ontario Legislature to call on the government to introduce legislation that would guarantee naturopaths the right to practice their art and science to the fullest without prejudice or harassment."

EDUCATION FUNDING

Mr. Allen: I have a petition to the Lieutenant Governor and the government of Ontario from the parents and students of St. Bernard School, Gloucester South, which reads as follows:

"We, the undersigned, express deep disappointment in the Ministry of Education. Your recent budget failed to meet the financial needs of St. Bernard School in Gloucester South. We have been petitioning the CRCSB for funds for the much-needed extension. St. Bernard's total student capacity is 315. Our present enrolment is 530. Change rooms are being used as classrooms. Remedial work is done in the hallways. We have a schoolyard full of portables whose students must enter the main building to use the washroom facilities. Our kindergarten portable is in dire need of repair, or better still, in need of demolition.

"Despite our appeal to Mr. Gilles Morin, MPP, the school board trustees and Mr. Cousineau of the ministry (all agreed that the school should be slated for immediate action) nothing was done.

"We urgently request that the Ministry of Education capital allocations be reviewed and the money we so urgently need for our school be found."

REPORT BY COMMITTEE

STANDING COMMITTEE ON RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT

Mr. Laughren from the standing committee on resources development presented the following report and moved its adoption:

Your committee begs to report the following bills without amendment:

Bill 151,

An Act to amend the Ontario Highway Transport Board Act;

Bill 152,

An Act to amend the Highway Traffic Act.

Your committee begs to report the following bill as amended:

Bill 150,

An Act to regulate Truck Transportation.

Motion agreed to.

Bills ordered for committee of the whole House.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

EMPLOYMENT STANDARDS AMENDMENT ACT

Mr. Shymko moved first reading of Bill 93,

An Act to amend the Employment Standards Act.

Motion agreed to.

Mr. Shymko: The bill adds Remembrance Day to the definition of "public holiday." Presently, under subsection 26(2) of the act, employees are entitled to a paid holiday for each public holiday, and Remembrance Day would be such. This is through the urgency of our veterans, who have asked that in the private sector they be treated the same way as those in the public sector.

MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS QUIETING ORDERS AMENDMENT ACT

Hon. Mr. Grandmaître moved first reading of Bill 94,

An Act to amend the Municipal Corporations Quieting Orders Act.

Motion agreed to.

MUNICIPAL PRIVATE ACTS REPEAL ACT

Hon. Mr. Grandmaître moved first reading of Bill 95,

An Act to repeal Certain Private Acts Related to Municipalities.

Motion agreed to.

NOTICE OF DISSATISFACTION

Mr. Speaker: I would like to inform the members that pursuant to standing order 30, the member for Port Arthur (Mr. Foulds) has given notice of his dissatisfaction with the answer to a question given by the Minister of Community and Social Services (Mr. Sweeney). This matter will be debated at 6 p.m. today.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

House in committee of the whole.

OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY AMENDMENT ACT (CONTINUED)

Consideration of Bill 79,

An Act to amend the Occupational Health and Safety Act.

section 3:

Mr. Chairman: We have in front of us Bill 79. When we departed yesterday, I think we had in front of us or were beginning Mr. Martel's motion to do with

section 3, proposed clauses 22c(1)(

c) to (e). There was apparently some compromise or there were some negotiations going on.

Mr. Martel: I think we have consensus on the next three amendments, which we worked out over the evening and on into today. We can move them individually. I do not think it is going to take very long. Perhaps I could move the first one. I do not think there is going to be any disagreement, so they should move quickly. We will do them one at a time rather than in the way I had suggested yesterday, because we now have an agreement.

Mr. Chairman: Are you moving the same amendment?

Mr. Martel: l move that clauses 22c(1)(c), (

d) and (

e) of the act, as set out in

section 3 of the bill, be struck out and the following substituted therefor:

"(

c) furnished by the employer to the medical officer of health of the health unit in which the work place is located;

"(

d) furnished by the employer to the fire department which serves the location in which the work place is located; and

"(

e) filed by the employer with a director."

Mr. Chairman: Excuse me. That (

e) was "filed"?

Mr. Martel: "Filed by the employer with a director."

Mr. Chairman: Right. Can I have a copy? That is not the same as the copy I have.

Mr. Martel: Yes. l am giving you my only copy, Mr. Chairman. Because we are going to get consensus, there will be no vote on it anyway, so I will leave that with you.

Mr. Chairman: Do you wish to move all three together to be discussed at one time?

Mr. Martel: Yes. Let us move all three of them.

Mr. Chairman: Is that correct, member for Sudbury?

Mr. Gordon: Agreed.

Mr. Chairman: Mr. Martel moves that subsection 22c(2) of the act, as set out in

section 3 of the bill, be struck out and the following substituted therefor:

"

(2) The medical officer of health, at the request of any person, shall request an employer to furnish a copy of the most recent version of the inventory or of an unexpired material safety data sheet, as the case may be.

"(2a) At the request of any person, the medical officer of health shall make available to the person for inspection a copy of any inventory or material safety data sheet requested by the person and in the possession of the medical officer of health.

"(2b) A medical officer of health shall not disclose the name of any person who makes a request under subsection (2) or (2a)."

Mr. Chairman: I had that written down originally as Mr. Wrye's amendment. Correct?

Mr. Gordon: I wonder if we can back up on this for just a second with the member for Sudbury East (Mr. Martel). Do I understand that what we have agreed to, under

section 3, clauses 22c(1)(c), (

d) and (e) -- we have already agreed to those? Do I understand that, Mr. Chairman? We are just stacking the votes then?

Mr. Chairman: No. Yesterday there were separate amendments put in, and today they are slightly amended, but I believe Mr. Martel is moving three amendments together so that they can be discussed at the same time.

Mr. Gordon: Okay. So we have not voted on them as yet.

Mr. Chairman: No.

Mr. Gordon: Does this allow us to go back? For example, I have an amendment that I will be bringing forward in

section 22a, a new subsection 6. Does that mean we can go back?

Mr. Chairman: Yes, because we have not carried that. We are still on

section 3, so yes, you would be able to move that.

Mr. Gordon: Thank you.

Mr. Chairman: Mr. Martel, do you have a third amendment?

Mr. Martel: Mr. Chairman, with your indulgence, I want to confirm something on this with my friend. It will take merely a second, because apparently there is a little glitch here.

Mr. Chairman: I think that is acceptable in committee.

Mr. Martel: I move that

section 22c of the act, as set out in

section 3 of the bill, be amended by adding thereto the following subsection:

"

(4) The Lieutenant Governor in Council may by regulation establish dates by which the employer in any industry or class of industry must provide inventories or material safety data sheets under clauses (1)(c), (

d) and (e). An employer to whom the regulation applies shall have until that date to comply with these clauses, unless the medical officer of health, the fire department or a director requests the employer to provide a copy of the most recent version of the inventory or of an unexpired material safety data sheets."

Hon. Mr. Wrye: May I be helpful?

Mr. Martel: Yes.

Hon. Mr. Wrye: The confusion my friend had was in line 4. He has "inventories or material safety data sheets" and it should read "inventories or inventories and material safety data sheets" so that both can be done. I will supply this and this will be the amendment. I guess you will have to read it, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman: Thank you.

Mr. Martel has moved that

section 22c of the act, as set out in

section 3 of the bill, be amended by adding thereto the following subsection:

"

(4) The Lieutenant Governor in Council may by regulation establish dates by which employers in any industry or class of industry must provide inventories or inventories and material safety data sheets under clauses (1)(c)(

d) and (e). An employer to whom the regulation applies shall have until that date to comply with those clauses, unless the medical officer of health, the fire department or a director requests the employer to provide a copy of the most recent version of the inventory or of an unexpired material safety data sheets."

Do we really mean "an unexpired material safety data sheets," plural and singular both?

Mr. Martel: It should be "data sheet."

Mr. Chairman: Fine. Thank you. "Data sheet," singular.

We have three clauses that have been moved. What do we do with -- and that is not anticipating a smart remark -- the amendments to

section 3, clause 22c(1)(

e) and subsection 22c(2), that were delivered yesterday, one by Mr. Wrye and one by Mr. Martel?

Mr. Martel: Scrap them. They are replaced by the three we have given you today.

Mr. Chairman: Thank you. Mr. Martel has moved those amendments. Comment, please.

Mr. Martel: I will be extremely brief. We have reached agreement on these. I think it does what we were concerned about, in that it eliminates the necessity for people to write or phone for material. That includes the health unit or the fire department.

At the same time, it ensures the ministry has time to receive the material in an organized fashion, other than a mass of 50,000 substances coming in; and in that case, where the

schedule has not been arrived at or the date reached, if an inquiry is made then the health unit, the fire department or the director has the ability to request of the employer that the information be forthcoming.

I think it covers all the bases all of us were concerned about, gives us what we were interested in ensuring and I think provides the ministry with the tools to be able to cope with the material when it comes in.

Hon. Mr. Wrye: I share the views of my friend the member for Sudbury East, and I believe there is unanimity among the three of us, both critics and the minister, on this matter.

It had always been our view to ensure that this material came to the ministry and indeed to medical officers of health and fire departments in a logical order and in a way that, in particular, the fire departments and medical officers of health, who have many other things to do, would not be absolutely overwhelmed and swamped with material. I know something about being swamped, and I took note of that, and that was why we backed off on the earlier proposal to simply provide a flood of paper to the MOHs and the fire departments.

On reflection, I think what we have arrived at here is a very useful compromise. It allows for the Lieutenant Governor in Council to establish dates by which there must be compliance for any industry or class of industry. Over and above that, even in those cases where that compliance date may not have been set, it allows any person to come forward to a fire department or to a medical officer of health and say, "I want information on industry X or business Y," and that will be provided. The amendments to subsection 22c(2) will allow that to happen, and I think what we have here in terms of community right to know is now a package that this Legislature can be very proud of.

Motions agreed to.

Mr. Chairman: Mr. Wrye moves that

section 22a of the act, as set out in

section 3 of the bill, be amended by adding thereto the following subsection:

"6. Except as may be prescribed, subsection 1 does not apply to an employer who undertakes to perform work or supply services on a project in respect of materials to be used on the project."

Hon. Mr. Wrye: This restores a

section of the bill which was taken out, I hope due to an oversight, yesterday. While we were attempting to put in a very important amendment that the member for Sudbury East had proposed -- which I believe is the amendment which establishes February 1 of each year as the date on which inventories must be updated and must be filed -- we simply, I am sure by mistake, took this subsection out. We are restoring it.

It really simply makes no sense except "as may be prescribed," and there will be some situations in which we will prescribe it, to demand this information on construction sites. In a word, it would create a very chaotic situation and that is why this has been put in. There are some exemptions to that rule and that is why we have made provision for those exceptions. I am sure my friends will want to support this amendment.

Mr. Martel: We agree that it has to go back. I hope the minister could indicate in a little more detail what is going to happen on construction sites because there is a concern. I can understand if there is a small project that is going to last two months, three months or something like that. One is not going to have time to file the inventory with the minister. Let us say we are talking about the domed stadium. I think that is going to be a lengthy thing.

I think what the minister is saying to us is that in projects of a substantial nature which are going to take a prolonged period of time to construct, or in fact if one is dealing with substances -- let us say the reconstruction of a courthouse where one knows that there are substances -- there have got to be ways that those things are signalled and the ministry should have a way of coping with them. It might be helpful just to put that on the record, but we will support the amendment.

Hon. Mr. Wrye: In trying to be helpful, my friend has made a couple of useful suggestions. The size of project may be one criterion. The use of various substances within the project may also be a criterion. My friend yesterday raised the issue of asbestos. The use of various substances on a project may be another criterion. I say to my friend the member for Sudbury East that we intend to have discussions not only with the construction industry but also with the building trades council on this matter, seek their advice and we will then move by regulation where appropriate.

Motion agreed to.

Mr. Chairman: Yesterday we stood down an amendment by Mr. Martel to

section 3 of the bill, proposed subsection 22a(2). That was stood down. If the members will recall, it was striking out "and" at the end of clause (

a) and adding clause (ab). What do the members wish done with that?

Mr. Martel: The minister could respond. I understand there might be a serious problem with this one too for the minister, which he might want to explain today. I was not aware of it until I think just a very short time ago. I think all we were trying to accomplish was that the quantities be laid out so as to assist. I understand that poses a real threat in terms of the confidentiality problem that some producers might be faced with.

Maybe if I could hear what the minister is saying, then I might be prepared to withdraw it.

Hon. Mr. Wrye: I want to be helpful here because the honourable member has just touched on a real problem. The amendment, as now written, would really get us very quickly into the whole area of trade secrets. If one were to spell out the hazardous material by quantity, then one very quickly would really violate, without wishing to, the trade secrets mechanism at the inventory level.

I know what my friend's concern is and I want to advise him and my colleagues in the House that some information in this area will be provided in the material safety data sheets, as I think my friend will know. The concentrations by weight in a range will be provided in the material safety data sheets. I remember the member for Brantford (Mr. Gillies) raising the issue yesterday of whether we could provide ranges. I think that really is the answer. It is not as if there will be nothing.

Some of the ranges of these concentrations will be provided in the MSDSs and, as my friend from Sudbury East will know, the medical officers of health and the fire departments will be under the added provisions that we have put in this changed Bill 79. This is an area where Bill 79, I would argue, is strengthened from Bill 101, in that there are going to be occasions when MOHs and fire departments will be provided with material safety data sheets. I think my friend will agree this will answer some of the concerns he has.

Mr. Martel: With that, I will withdraw that amendment.

Mr. Chairman: The member for Sudbury East.

Mr. Martel: I just stood and indicated to the Chairman that I was prepared to withdraw that amendment.

Mr. Chairman: You wish to withdraw that?

Mr. Martel: Yes.

Mr. Chairman: Are there any other amendments? We have one by Mr. Gordon. Are there any more of yours to

section 3, Mr. Martel?

Mr. Martel: Yes.

Mr. Chairman: I have one for 22h. Is that still standing?

Mr. Martel: Yes, I have a 22h.

Mr. Chairman: Fine, thank you. I will take others before that. I wanted to know if that was still standing. That is the only one we have remaining in

section 3 on

section 22. Correct? Thank you.

Mr. Wrye, there is one here in

section 3 to subsection 22c(4).

Mr. Gillies, I had one from you, subsection 22d(1) and subsection 22d(3).

Mr. Gillies: That is still standing.

Mr. Chairman: Fine, thank you. I think we are at the point of moving those -- no, sorry. We have another one before that. Mr. Gordon, we have one in

section 3, a new subsection 22a(6). Do you want to move that, please?

Mr. Gordon: I believe that a new subsection 6, "The employer shall provide the director and any other prescribed agencies with a floor plan of the work place showing the names of all hazardous materials and their location," is perhaps a way of --

Mr. Chairman: Let us get things straightened around. You are moving that a new subsection be added to

section 3 of the bill, proposed

section 22a of the act, which perhaps should be a new subsection 7, since there was a new subsection 6 added.

Mr. Gillies: I will try to be a little helpful on this. Yesterday, Mr. Martel moved an amendment to 22a, which at the time I agreed to and I still think it has some merit. That

section was the one which would have the floor plan of the plant on the exterior of the building with the location of hazardous chemicals on the floor plan so that in the event of a fire or other emergency the fire department would know where they were located. I think the thrust of that is something we would all agree to.

The concern has been brought forward to our party that the public posting, if you will, of such chemicals on a building could be an invitation to terrorists in the event of the attempted theft or other illegal use of such materials. You are telling them where they are. This is the concern I just shared with the member for Sudbury East.

What my colleague is going to suggest is a change to the amendment, which we hope might be accepted on a friendly basis, which would have those floor plans for the plants, including the locations, on file with the fire departments and other authorities, so that when there is a fire at ABC Chemicals, they take it with them and know where the stuff is, as opposed to looking for it on the building.

Mr. Martel: That really will not provide the protection. In the middle of the night there is a fire and people rush out to fight the fire and then they have to run back and say, "Wait a minute, we have to look at company ABC and we have to pull the file and we have to get it out of the computer" -- it is three in the morning -- "so we know where these substances are located." Can you imagine the panic as people try to get somebody who knows how to operate the computer to get it to flip out before they start down the road to fight the fire?

Firefighters do the whole thing in a matter of seconds. They are down the pole and into the fire truck and gone; then somebody is going to say, "Wait a minute, we have to go back and find out what company this fire is with and we have to pull it out of the computer to know where the substances are located." It is not going to happen, because who is going to have time? Who is going to take the time to know precisely what company, get it out of the computer and tell the firemen where the substances are? Are we going to wait around for that to happen? People will be in an absolute panic.

Does the member think they are going to wait around two, three or four minutes to start to seek out this information?

I moved the motion I did because it is convenient -- I do not care where you put it on the building; it could be at the front near the entrance, something like that, in some sort of container which will not be breakable -- so people can come and assess what it is or where it is or what procedure they are going to use before they start to fight the fire.

What we are asking firemen to do today is to go into a fire, into a major building, not even knowing what is there. They are the ones who risk their lives. They do not know what they are up against. They do not know if there is flammable material next to something that is explosive, or that if two compounds come together they become flammable when originally they were not, or whether two things coming together are going to blow the place to hell. We ask firefighters to do that every day of the week, willy-nilly. I just think there has to be a better way.

The job is dangerous enough without asking firefighters to go in to fight something blind. At least let us give them the tools with which to proceed in an organized fashion. To suggest we leave it at the firehall and hopefully it is going to catch up to them somewhere -- the firefighters have to see it and have it with them. That is why I say, if you have it at the site and it is on a building, they just look at it and the fire chief or lieutenant has something with which he can advise the workers how to best proceed.

I can recall the case of a couple of firemen dying and it was not anything that was explosive. In fact, bundles of paper, rolls of paper, were stacked and they got so wet. The firemen did not realize that, and they walked into this bloody building and the things collapsed on top of them and crushed them. There is no necessity for that. We have to give them as many of the tools as possible since they cannot refuse to work. We have to give them as much protection as possible for them to fight that fire. I think the only way we can do it is by having the material right there so they can read it.

Mr. Chairman: It may be helpful to the members to know that Mr. Martel's amendment from yesterday was stacked, the one about posting it on the exterior of the work place. That vote has been stacked to the end of the bill. I just want to let the members know that.

Mr. Gordon: The member for Sudbury East has an obvious and very genuine concern when it comes to the health and safety of workers, and also of course for the firemen being able to find the source of the fire and the location of the hazardous goods. But I suggest to the House that in the age we live in today, many fire departments across Ontario make it a practice of going to industry and commercial establishments, saying, "We would like to look around your premises because we would like to identify where some of the natural fire hazards are, whether they be chemical, paper or certain areas such as a computer room, in a firm."

They want to know where it is and they draw up a map of that firm. They put that map on file. They put it in the computer. When there is a fire, what the modern fire department does is that as soon as the firemen get to the scene, if they have not already identified the exact number of the building where the fire is taking place, it is immediately flashed back to the station house and they say: "There is a fire at ABC Chemical. We have located the building." Those data are immediately flashed forward to the fire truck. As a matter of fact, many of them are now beginning to carry that kind of information with them.

One might say, Are you sure, Jim?" Yes, I am sure because, for example, they do that in the city of Sudbury right now. For years the fire department has been going around to various establishments identifying the floor plans and memorizing them, so that when the firemen get to the building they know where to go. I am suggesting in this House that the chemical company would file an inventory with the fire department, as well as a map of where certain hazardous goods are. That is on file. The fire department has it. There is no mistake about where they are going or what they are going to do when they get there.

I suggest this is a better way to do it than to say to all the companies in Ontario that might have some kind of chemical hazard on their premises, "Post something outside so that when the firemen get there they will be able to find it." Can the members imagine it? You tell me to post something outside. You tell the Minister of Labour who runs company B. You get the Minister of the Environment (Mr. Bradley) who has company P, for pollution. We are all going to make our own little map, just as in kindergarten.

Do the members know what the map is going to look like? There are going to be 10 different maps, some that anybody in kindergarten could read and others that even the most sophisticated person could not figure out. We will get some intellectual in one of these chemical companies and he will come up with a grand design. He will even put little blocks and little modules on the paper. When the fire department gets there, they will not even be able to read it. Who is to say it will remain legible after a period of time? Are we going to lay down regulations and specifications for some kind of time capsule that is made out of plexiglass? I think not.

We do not want to give this to arsonists, terrorists or saboteurs, or people who are looking for chemicals to do God knows what with. Maybe some young adolescents have discovered that a certain chemical will give you a better high even than angel dust or any of those other things that are out there. We are going to post it on the front of the building? I think not. The responsible thing to do, I suggest, and I am sure this would more than satisfy the member for Sudbury East, is to see that the fire department has the map and that it is going to be flashed immediately to the fire truck or be part of the fire truck's computerized system and will do things in an up-to-date and modern way.

I think the Minister of Labour is going to welcome this friendly amendment, and so will the member for Sudbury East from the New Democratic Party.

Hon. Mr. Wrye: I do not think we are terribly wild about this amendment either but I think it is better than the one now stacked for a vote. I think all of us are concerned about the issue we are trying to address here, and that is providing the greatest possible amount of information for fire departments in the case of fires, in the case of these dangerous situations. I do not think there is any disagreement in any party on this. The question is how to do it.

There really are a number of problems with the amendment which stands in the name of the member for Sudbury East and which is now stacked for a vote, and I think at least some of the problems have been overcome by the amendment proposed by the member for Sudbury. I will not go into it, but the member for Brantford mentioned that the member for Sudbury East's amendment really is an invitation to terrorists and burglars. It is unpractical in some cases, and I do share that concern also with the member for Sudbury's amendment. There are going to be some companies where there is almost more information than can be put on a floor plan.

I guess, on balance, my greater problem and the reason I am inclined to accept the amendment of the member for Sudbury -- and that the government will support the amendment of the member for Sudbury and not that of the member for Sudbury East -- is that in a very practical sense, in a great number of fires, the ability of the firefighters to get close enough even to see the floor plan is going to be at risk. If it is in the part of the building where the floor plan has been posted on the exterior, that wall could have collapsed before the fire department even gets there.

I believe it probably would have been better to do all this by regulation but, if we had our druthers, we would go with the amendment of the member for Sudbury. I do not share the concerns of my friend from Sudbury East on whether departments will be able to access this information quickly. Because they are more concerned than we are about the health and safety of their own firefighters, I am sure they will develop very quickly methods of accessing this information almost instantly in the event of a fire and literally within minutes will have these floor plans with the indications of where the hazardous materials are located on site.

One of the problems with that -- and it is a limitation I hope we all understand -- is that those hazardous materials move from place to place within the factory and within the plant. Obviously, there is going to be a bit of a guessing game, but perhaps as we develop the floor plans, it can be indicated that the hazardous materials move from place to place in the plant. Certainly, anything which will be proposed and which will be given here will be superior to what we have now.

I would simply ask the mover of the motion, the member for Sudbury, if he would accept a very small friendly amendment, that is, where it says, "the employer shall provide the director," to make it say instead "a director." I would move that the word "the" in line 1 of the amendment to subsection 7 be struck and the word "a" be substituted therefor.

Mr. Chairman: That is an amendment of an amendment. If you want to get a little less fancy, perhaps Mr. Gordon will change it. It is the fifth word in the fast line which is changed from "the" to "a."

Hon. Mr. Wrye: I will give it all to the member for Sudbury, if he will accept it.

Mr. Gordon: I would so move.

Mr. Chairman: Good. Thank you. Further comments on the amendment?

Mr. Martel: Let me make just two short comments. I know all the fire departments beyond Sudbury and Toronto have computer equipment. They really do, those little firefighting departments in the unorganized townships. I know Fort Erie has a computer and it is going to be able to relay that as the firemen are travailing along to the fire. That makes me feel secure and I am sure it is going to make the firemen in all these other localities that do not have computers feel secure. They know all they have to do is press a buzzer and it is going to flip out and tell them where everything is.

When it comes to the latter point, it blows my mind, quite frankly. What was the word they used?

Mr. Gillies: Terrorism.

Mr. Martel: Terrorism. My God, we have to be careful of the terrorists. We have lots of them in northern Ontario. We have them in the Bruce Peninsula. I know in Erie they have more terrorists than you can shake a stick at. We really have to be fearful of that.

I do not think with this sort of amendment -- and I can understand why the minister is going to accept it. All the prattle from my friend the member for Sudbury about whether we are going to have something that is fireproof or waterproof -- what is he talking about? What we want to do is protect people.

The minister got up and joined in. He said: "It must have been a long fire. It must have smouldered all night through spontaneous combustion or otherwise it blew the hell out of the building." I want to know the fire, in the first five minutes when the fire truck is there, that is on the outside and so dangerous people cannot get near it. There they are now with their firefighting equipment standing next to the building pouring water into it. All I am saying is: have something outside so the firemen know full well what it is they are fighting with.

What the minister has done by accepting this amendment is do the firefighters a disservice. I want to tell him that every fire department does not have computers yet. If he wants to risk the lives of those firemen, he should accept that amendment. What he is doing is putting firefighters, where there are no computers, at risk, because they will never have the information. The minister can play all the silly games he wants with my friend from Sudbury, but where there are no computers that means firefighters will not have the protection so that they can look at the material they are going to fight in the fires they are exposed to.

If the minister wants to say "Put it 50 feet from the building" so be it, but he should not pretend that everybody in this bloody province has a computer on which to draw. If he is saying that, he is nuts, and so is the member for Sudbury.

Mr. Gordon: Certainly it would not be my intention to prattle on about this, but I would suggest to the House that in communities in Ontario that are as small as the member for Sudbury East has suggested, if they did have a chemical plant, I think it would be incumbent upon the fire department to have the plan sent to it and to do a little bit of homework as part of its daily duties.

Without listening to the derogatory terms coming from the member on my left, I might point out that volunteer fire departments in this province are well known for the fact that they spend endless evenings wanting to learn more and more and more about the hazards that happen to be in the area they are serving. They spend many, many evenings. I am certainly not going to downgrade those volunteer fire departments or their members. I think they can learn this material and even they, if you quizzed them, would tell you it is a much superior way to do it.

What are we going to do? Are we going to go out and delegate, first of all, a special form? We are going to have to bring people in from all over Ontario to teach them how to make this special form that is going to be hung up somewhere. Is it going to go up on a chain link fence? Is it going to go up on a red brick building? Where is it going to go?

I am not going to carry on any further. I just had to get up, when I hear terms like "prattle." What can I say?

Mr. Martel: What about "plagiarize"?

Mr. Gordon: "Plagiarize" too. There is another term that is coming from the left.

Mr. Martel: That amendment came, like so many others the member was going to move, from the list I handed him the other day and which he was prepared to use. Only his critic, who carried the bill yesterday, had the decency to say, "I will not try to move those, because I know full well they are the ones you presented on Thursday afternoon." Do not give me prattling.

I want to say there are volunteer firefighters as well -- small brigades in the north, things like that --where they will never have a computer. My friend shakes his head, but I recall just two years ago, a volunteer organization fighting a fire in the north -- the Ministry of Natural Resources, to be exact --where people were seriously injured because they did not know. They were inadequately trained.

He makes it sound so simplistic, as though everyone has the equipment with which to do it. I do not see any problem, I say to my friend, the minister. I look at every company. They have a sign outside -- in glass, under lights, most of them --spotlighting their products. Now, that is important; that sells. However, to protect firefighters, who have one of the most risky jobs in the business, we say, "We are going to put it on the computer or they can memorize it all."

There is somebody here from the city of Toronto -- I want to know how many plants we are talking about that firefighters should have imbedded in their skulls. "If we go to plant X, these 273 substances are there. If we go to plant Y, it is another 500 substances. You remember where they are." My friend the member for Sudbury says it is simply a case of memorizing.

One studies at night. How many companies in a fire station? How many streets? How many blocks? There could be 1,000 companies. What my friends are saying is, "Well, they can remember them all. They can remember the amount of designated substances. They can memorize the location for each of those substances." Who are the members trying to kid? Who in God's name are they trying to kid -- that one can put it down to memory?

I cannot get over the terrorists. That is the one that really clinches it -- the terrorists. We have got to watch them.

Hon. Mr. Wrye: I cannot let all of this go -- and I really have some reservations about involving myself in this family feud from Sudbury. However, I say to my friend from Sudbury East, I really do not need a lecture from him on whether we are nuts or not. Here we have placed a better amendment, which in my considered judgement will provide for the health and safety of firefighters in a better way than is proposed by my friend from Sudbury East.

I do not know where my friend from Sudbury East comes from out of left field -- he always comes out of left field with his idea of computers. I suppose we will put all of these floor plans, in his view, in a computer. I would think that in a few fire stations they are going to have these floor plans right in a filing drawer. When the fire begins they will open the drawer and pull out the floor plan. Even in this high-technology era of 1987, it will get no more sophisticated than that.

Mr. Martel: You are crazy. You are mad. Keep going, Bill, and they will memorize it all.

Mr. Warner: You are the Mad Hatter.

Mr. Chairman: I am sorry, I did not realize the minister had completed. I was listening to the Mad Hatter.

Mr. Haggerty: If anybody works in the industrial sector, and I have worked in it as a millwright, I will tell you this much: If you come into a hazardous area in any of the plants, they usually have a sign there. Some of them even have a plan, mapped out on a steel plate. It tells you every check valve there is, so in case of an event, a fire, in this particular area or that tank, one knows where to go to shut off the valve, to check it there, so it does not spread through the building.

Normally, this is available inside the plant doors, for the workers. However, the member for Sudbury East said it should be on the outside. Yes, I quite agree with him. There should be something out there to warn any firemen going in there.

Mr. Breaugh: We do not want to intervene in this family dispute.

Mr. Haggerty: No, but I just draw to members' attention, those who are not familiar with the industrial sector, that this is what takes place. I suggest that there are a number of fire departments that do have an index of all the hazardous materials located throughout the community. Normally, when the alarm comes in and there is a street number, they will pull the file out and say, "Yes, there is hazardous material there," and they can disperse the equipment. But I suggest that when you get into a larger chemical plant, then they do have ways of informing the employees themselves of what to do in that event.

One of the things I think the member for Sudbury East forgot to mention in this warning is that there should also be a sign out there that tells you how to neutralize that chemical. Sometimes water, if you want to pu