Manitoba Hansard — 25 October 1989 (Sitting 57, 34th Legislature, 2nd Session)

34-2-57

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, October 25, 1989. The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Mr. Helmut Pankratz (Chairman): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the Second Report of the Committee on Economic Development. Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): Your Standing Committee on Economic Development presents the following as their Second Report.

Your committee met on Tuesday, October 17, 1989, at 10 a.m., in Room 255 of the Legislative Building to consider the Annual Reports of Moose Lake Loggers, Channel Area Loggers and the Communities Economic Development Fund for the fiscal period ending March 31, 1988, as well as the Auditor's Report and Consolidated Financial Statements as at October 31, 1988 and 1987, tor A.E. McKenzie Co. Ltd. Your committee also met on Tuesday, October 24, 1989, to consider the 1988 Annual Report of the Communities Economic Development Fund and the Auditor's Report and Consolidated Financial Statements of A. E.

McKenzie Co. ltd. for 1988 and 1987. Mr. R. Kivisto, general manager, Mr. G. Trithart, secretary-treasurer and Mr. D. Tomasson, Deputy Minister of Northern Affairs, provided such information as was requested with respect to the Annual Report and business of Moose Lake Loggers. Mr. H. Lasn, general manager, Mr. G. Trithart, secretary-treasurer, and Mr. D. Tomasson, Deputy Minister of Northern Affairs, provided such information as was requested with respect to the Annual Report and business of Channel Area Loggers. Mr. R. West, president, Mr. D. Smeltz, chairperson and Mr. K.

Robinson, V.P. finance, provided such information as was requested with respect to the Auditor's Report and Consolidated Financial Statements of A.E. McKenzie Co. Ltd. Mr. T. Chiswell, general manager, provided such information as was requested with respect to the Annual Report and business of the Communities Economic Development Fund.

Your committee has considered the Annual Reports of Moose Lake Loggers, Channel Area Loggers and the Communities Economic Development Fund for the fiscal period ending March 31, 1988, and the Auditor's Report and Consolidated Financial Statements as at October 31, 1988 and 1987, for A.E. McKenzie Co. ltd . and has adopted the same as presented . All of which is respectfully submitted . Mr. Pankratz: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Co-operative, Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr. Connery), that the report of the committee be received. MOTION presented and carried.

TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Edward Connery (Minister of Co-operative, Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Annual Report of the Co operative Loans and Loans Guarantee Board for 1987- 88. Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern and Native Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table Supplementary Information for the Manitoba Seniors Directorate for the benefit of the Members opposite. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Amtrak Shuttle Service Minister's Involvement Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister responsible for Highways and Transportation (Mr. Albert Driedger) . Week after week we see examples of this nation being dismantled by the federal Conservatives, the dismantling of VIA Rail being one of the most recent examples. This very nation was built on the development of a rail line from east to west.

I am sure the Minister is familiar with the history of the railroad in shaping this country, the decades of intensive political debate, the bloodshed, the fight to establish a national railroad to combat the threat of annexation by pushing forward settlement in western Canada. No other development has been as important to the building of this nation as our railroad. The decision to cut VIA Rail has placed a dark cloud over this history of nation building, and yesterday, Mr.

Speaker, we learned that Amtrak will be introducing a new shuttle service from Winnipeg via three VIA stations to Grand Forks to connect with their empire builder, a decision which will mean that Manitobans will now be able to travel by rail through the United States to various American and Canadian destinations. My question to the Minister is, was he personally involved in any discussion with Amtrak or with the federal Government with respect to this new service? *

(1335) Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, no, I was not. In spite of the fact that we from time to time try and influence and lobby the private sectors in terms of what services they provide or do not provide, in this particular case we have had no involvement with Amtrak in terms of what they intend to provide or do. 2206

Wednesday, October 25, 1989 Amtrak Shuttle Service Impact VIA Rail Workers Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, it appears to be somewhat coincidental that Amtrak can immediately put a service together so quickly upon the announcement that VIA was going to discontinue this same service . Can the Minister tell the House if he has any information with respect to this new Amtrak service and what it will mean in terms of lost revenue and how it will affect those few remaining VIA jobs in Winnipeg? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, it may be that Amtrak had their plans on the books from the time many years ago when the Liberal Party of Canada was trying to dismantle VIA Rail. I quote from an

article that quotes Jean-Luc Pepin, the former Liberal Minister of Transport, and it says, "Pepin accused the Liberal Party of hypocrisy for defending a network it contemplated shutting down completely while in Government," when referring to VIA Rail, of course, and he said, "Turner keeps repeating that the Government has broken his dream ," Pepin said . "It is pathetic." He said that the economic argument that was put to Cabinet for cutting down VIA Rail, for making cuts, was so strong th at four Ministers suggested shutting down the whole network.

That is what the Liberals were planning in the early 1980s, and it may well be that because they had those plans in the 1980s, Amtrak was aware of them and had a plan in place. Amtrak Shuttle Service Impact Western Canada Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Leader of the official Opposition .- (interjection)- Order. Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker , it would be nice if for once this Premier could defend the citizens who live in the Province of Manitoba.

To the Minister of Highways and Transportation, Amtrak now provides an attractive incentive to travel to other Canadian destinations through the United States . Has this Minister had any discussions with his western Canadian counterparts to assess how this new service will affect revenues and jobs in western Canada? Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, I would like to indicate that I have been in touch with my counterparts from the western part of Canada. On Monday coming up I will be meeting with the federal Minister of Transportation , Mr. Bouchard .

On Tuesday I will be appearing before the Commons Transport Committee to present our case in terms of how we feel about the VIA Rail situation. The community organization, including the City of Winnipeg, the Winnipeg Chamber , the Brotherhood of Railway Workers and I will be making a presentation to that same committee on Tuesday at approximately 10:30 or 11:30. So, Mr. Speaker, we are on top of these things, we are communicating, we are trying to make sure that the interests of western Canada and Manitoba are being brought forward in the strongest way that we can. Amtrak Shuttle Service Impact Western Canada Mr.

Speaker : The Honourable Leader, with her supplementary . Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, while we applaud many of the things that ' he has said, there are some noticeable absences , some very noticeable absences. This new north-south link · which this federal Government is prepared to allow see established is not, according to the Minister , going to be raised at those meetings on Monday and Tuesday.

Will he now commit to raise this new Amtrak line, to show how the evolution of this nation is going to continue to disintegrate if we do not continue to believe in an east-west connection, and not north-south ones? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, you know, the Liberal Party of course likes to have it both ways. This is what Mr. Pepin, who was the Liberal Transport Minister in the 1980s, said about their cutbacks to VIA Rail: "I had three or four colleagues then, in 1981, who wanted to put the key in the door right away.

They believed the whole VIA should be shut down , closed down," and then he said six Cabinet Ministers still in the Liberal Caucus voted to trim the service. Those six, Lloyd Axworthy, Charles Caccia, Robert Kaplan, Bill Rompkey, Herb Gray and Andre Ouellet should support the Mulroney Government's 51 percent cut of VIA routes , which will result in the loss of 2,761 jobs . •

(1340) That is the problem we have, Mr. Speaker, we do not get the support from the Liberals for the efforts that our Minister of Transportation (Mr. Albert Driedger) has tried to put into this, to preserve the service, to make sure we do not have the cuts to VIA Rail. Even the Liberal Party cannot make up the ir mind , Mr. Speaker. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please ; order, please . The Honourable First Minister, assume his chair, please . Transportation Industry Meeting Request Mrs.

Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Is it not amazing that the Premier seems to defend Jean-Luc Pepin? I did not agree with Jean-Luc Pepin in the early'B0s and I still do not agree with Jean-Luc Pepin . Can the Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr.

Albert Driedger) tell the House , in that yesterday he turned down our request to meet with representatives of all transportation sectors to develop a strategy, a strategy so necessary because of what Amtrak wants to do and regrettably because United Airlines feel their experiment has not been successful , will he now do what we asked him to do yesterday and call an emergency meeting of all those involved in 2207

Wednesday, October 25, 1989 ) transportation so we will have a strategy for the '90s and indeed the 21st Century? Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, as I indicated yesterday, I have a Department of Transportation with very capable people who are working together with myself on all the issues that are involved in the transportation sector. I fail to see where there would be any rationalization for developing another committee to take and study these things. We are on top of these things and we are trying to make arrangements; we are lobbying .

We are doing what we can in the best interests of Manitobans in regard to VIA Rail, regarding the airlines, regarding anything that has to do with transportation . I feel very disappointed about the fact that Aspen Airlines has made a decision that I think is not a good decision, to shut down or withdraw their services to Denver. I have all kinds of comments that I am prepared to make on that if someone wants to raise a question on that. First Ministers' Conference VIA Rail Service Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): What we are trying to get from this Government is a pro-active approach .

They aiways react. They never put some plans in place so they can meet emergencies. Will the First Minister, when he attends the First Ministers' Conference on the 9th and 10th of November, bring a clear message to the Prime Minister that this nation will not survive if they continue to dismantle our institutions one by one, which brought the regions of this nation together? Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): I will clearly let the Prime Minister know that we need to have the consideration of the federal Government for regional interests and regional concerns and the effect that decisions they make, whether they be the GST, whether they be the closure of bases, whether they be the withdrawal of services from VIA Rail, affect regions negatively . • The difficulty we have, of course, is we have other , people who go to Ottawa and make the same kinds of judgments .

We have just seen that we have the Liberals in Ottawa who make the judgment to take away rights we have over control of our telephone system and back up the federal Liberal Government in taking away the right of control of Manitoba and the Public Utilities Board and transferring it to the CRTC . We have the Liberals in Ottawa who, when they were in Government, tried to dismantle completely VIA Rail, tried to wipe it out completely . These are the kinds of things that happen.

When people go to Ottawa they become consumed by the golden triangle, by the interests of central Canada, and they forget what happens in the regions of this country. I would say this Leader of the Opposition (Mrs . Carstairs) ought to be concerned about her people and her Party who go there and make those same kinds of judgments that are harmful to the -(interjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order. 2208 VIA Rail Transportation Ministers' Meeting Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): I find it rather interesting today to have VIA Rail raised by the Liberal Party when no provincial Liberal attended the town hall to save VIA Rail last night in Winnipeg, and the Conservatives, Mr. Speaker, should be very careful as well because there were no Conservative MLAs at the town hail meeting last night to save VIA Rail. It was organized by a media outlet. •

(1345) Mr. Speaker, there is indeed a tragedy, what has happened to VIA Rail, starting with the absolute giveaway of billions of dollars of land to the CPR by the Liberals years ago, letting them go from their passenger obligation that was part of Confederation, and now to have the Bouchard brothers totally destroy VIA Rail from the federal Government.

My question to the Premier is, we have asked him before to call an emergency meeting with the Prime Minister because we cannot get a meeting with the Transportation Ministers of this country, so will he impress upon the Prime Minister the absolute insanity of having a situation where Manitobans' transportation link to western Canada is going to be going through Grand Forks to Seattle and up to Vancouver, rather than Brandon, Regina, Moose Jaw, Calgary , Banff and again to Vancouver, as part of our original dream In Confederation? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, I guess the Leader of the New Democratic Party (Mr. Doer) was not listening to the answers of the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Albert Driedger) earlier because he clearly said that he is meeting with the federal Minister of Transportation on Monday, he is meeting with other Transportation Ministers from other provinces, and he is putting together a group of people to lobby Ottawa and to ensure that they know of the negative effects of their decision on Manitoba. Northern Route Protection Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, my question was not whether it was a meeting just with the Ministers, it was the question of all Ministers' meetings dealing with this issue . I have a further question to the Premier . The northern remote routes in Canada under VIA Rail had been given only a one-year reprieve .

Has the Premier raised this issue with the Prime Minister or anybody else in a level of sensitivity at the federal Government level to impress upon them the absolute total destruction of our transportation system in northern Manitoba, with the kind of criterion that was used to destroy VIA Rail in western Canada, if that same criterion is applied to northern Canada over the next year that they have given us? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, we have clearly indicated our desire to preserve that northern rail connection and service, and that has been one of

Wednesday, October 25, 1989 the things that have been argued very strongly by the Minister ot Transportation . He has succeeded in ensuring that it was not affected in this round of cuts. He has it on the agenda for his meeting on Monday with the federal Transportation Minister that it ought to be extended and made sure that it is permanent because we believe that it is absolutely essential to keep open our lines of transportation to the North . Amtrak Shuttle Service Justification Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I have a further question to the Premier.

How can we possibly justify to western Canada a situation where citizens have to use Amtrak transportation because the Government is cutting back on money to VIA Rail, when at the same time the federal Mulroney Government is taking a billion dollars to give Amtrak, through l_oans from Bombardier of Quebec . How can we possibly justify that to western Canada, and why can we not talk some sense into the Prime Minister in terms of his decisions? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I cannot justify it and I do not intend to try to justify it. I disagree with it. Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, the Member for La \/erendrye (Mr. Pankratz) says we are getting straight answers to straight questions . I want to get a straight reversal of the absolute insane decisions, that is what we want to get. with less-qualified, non-Native individuals , and in two cases new positions were created and filled with non Native individuals . Northern training personnel were not given an opportunity to apply for these upcoming positions as they were promised. Mr. Speaker: And the question is? Mr. Rose: They were never opened to competition.

Why is this Government engaging in deception in dealings with the province's aboriginal people? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, the allegations by the Member across the way are simply ridiculous . When we amalgamated the Limestone training or renamed the Limestone Training Agency to a Northern Training Employment Agency, we simply made sure that northern training is going to be delivered by Northerners, and the administration of that is going to be done in the North.

Some of the positions that the Member speaks about were term positions that naturally would expire at the end of a time when the course has run out. For that reason those people may want to terminate their contracts or they were given the opportunity to extend them . In no case, not in one single case, was there an employee terminated because we decided to terminate . In two cases, Mr. Speaker, there were two people who accepted severance p.iy on their own willing, but there were no layoffs.

As a matter of fact, we are committed to ensure that northern people get jobs up north , and important jobs such as teaching, and that those jobs are done by Northerners and Natives. ! I I have a final question to the Premier. How can we again justify giving massive $780 million loans to another Quebec company, Lavalin, to build again railway systems in other countries, when we are allegedly cutting back on our national dream, our national rail service, with the VIA Rail cutbacks that are allegedly for cost-cutting reasons when we know they are not? Job Protection [ Mr. Filmon: Mr.

Speaker, the Leader of the New Democratic Party may want to send his questions to his federal colleagues in Ottawa to be asked in Ottawa. I not only cannot justify that decision, I do not intend to try. I disagree with the decision, again . •

(1350) Northern Training Office Staffing Mr. Bob Rose (St. Vital): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister for Education and Training (Mr. Derkach). The Northern Training and Employment Agency in Thompson had 12 employees at the time that the Keewatin Community College took over. Eight of these employees were Native . Nine of the Northern Training Employment Agency's employees were also demoted or accepted severance pay at that time. Seven of those nine demoted or taken severance pay were Native. Moreover , in at least three cases, positions held by Native Canadians were .filled Mr. Bob Rose (St. Vital): Mr.

Speaker, to the same Minister, I am referring to Native Northerners, not Northerners period, and that is the subject. What provision is this Minister making to establish staff years for those people at the Northern Training and Employment Agency to therefore protect their jobs instead of demotions, and the jobs that we feel Native Canadians have demonstrated more and moreover that they are capable of handling? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr.

Speaker, every one of these positions was a term position, and what we have done is ensured that those term positions will be extended to allow for those individuals to either find other employment when the end of the term comes, or in fact we have assured them that we will try to incorporate them into our educational system in northern Manitoba, not like the former Government did, which put them all on term positions, and at the end of that time they were released.

As a matter of fact, we have assured each and every one of those employees that we will do everything we can to ensure that their employment will continue. 2209

i) Wednesday, October 25, 1989 Discriminatory Decisions Mr. Bob Rose (St. Vital): Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister, this is the last supplemental. Now that this is brought to your attention, even though you do not see the facts clearly as they should be, what action will this Minister now take to reverse these discriminatory decisions? Mr. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, that allegation is foolish because we have not entered into any kind of discriminatory decision in northern Manitoba .

As a matter of fact, we have ensured that we give northern Manitobans and Native Manitobans every opportunity to participate in society, to participate in the educational opportunities and the jobs that are available in northern Manitoba. We are committed to ensure that northern Manitobans participate equally in a society in Manitoba as they should . We do not make comments to them as were made by the Leader during the campaign, in reference to the time that she was there at a meeting. Shelter Allowances Cost of Living Increase Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Housing (Mr. Ducharme). Just over a week ago I had asked the Premier (Mr. Filmon) a question in regard to his Government, and would they be increasing the threshold for the shelter allowance for our family renters. His answer to that question was, well, the NDP are building a bridge that goes nowhere . So being the persistent fellow that I am, I put this question to the Minister of Housing.

Since the Minister of Housing has admitted that the shelter allowance SAFER Program, shelter allowance for our seniors, should have been indexed according to the cost of living increases, will the Minister agree today that the SAFFR Program should also be indexed along with that program? •

(1355) Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Housing): Mr. Speaker, it is unfortunate that the Member keeps coming forward with the inaccuracies that he is making . I suggest that he use the basis of what we set up in the Estimates period and I will go through the Grants and Subsidies

section when we get at it in Estimates. Funding Re-instatement Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, again a question for the Minister, a policy question of this nature should be asked in this Chamber and does not necessarily have to wait for his own personal agenda. Will the Minister of Housing -(interjection)- My question again is to the Minister of Housing . Will the Minister of Housing agree to restoring the allotments to both the SAFER and to the SAFFR Program in this year's budget allotment? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Housing): Mr.

Speaker, it is the first time that I was aware that it is 2210 my own personal agenda to sit down and prepare Estimates and procedures to get at these Estimates . It is done by both sides of the House . I would suggest to him that when we get to the Grants and Subsidies in the Estimates I will deal with him. I will answer all his questions . Shelter Allowances Funding Re-instatement Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I am going to try a question with the Minister for Seniors this time . Maybe he has been doing something in respect to our seniors.

That question is: why has the Minister responsible for the Seniors not sat down with his colleagues and demanded the restoration of the allotments to these two programs, especially the one for our seniors? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, order. The Honourable Minister responsible for Seniors . Hon. James Downey (Minister responsible for Seniors): Mr. Speaker, let me first of all say how pleased we are on this side of the House to be able to look after the needs of seniors in the many areas of concern, neglect that has been going on far too many years .

Let me further add that I am prepared and have sat down with my colleague, who has clearly indicated that he will deal with that issue at an appropriate time, which is at the Estimates process . Schmidtke Millwork Ltd. Worker Safety Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister responsible for Workplace Safety and Health (Mrs . Hammond). On August 29, 1985, Schmidtke Millworks in Steinbach was inspected , and eight health and safety breaches were noted including failure to provide protective eye wear and respiratory gear.

A follow-up was done later that year and another compliance order was issued. Then , four years later in June of this year, when a worker complained, the company was reinspected and again was found to be wanting to the area of respiratory and eye wear protection . Is the Minister aware of this case and what steps, if any, has she taken to ensure that a company is not allowed to make a mockery of the Act and that it does not take the worker- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order . The question has been put . Order, please . The Honourable Minister of Labour . Hon.

Gerrie Hammond (Minister responsible for Workplace Safety and Health): Mr. Speaker, I am not familiar with that particular case, but I will today find out what has happened. I will say that when these orders are placed, they must be complied with. Mr. Edwards: However, clearly they are not, in all cases. Mr. Speaker, can the Minister assure the workers at

Wednesday, October 25, 1989 that plant that it will not take a further four years this time to achieve compliance on a permanent basis with the further seven compliance orders which were issued in June of this year? Mrs. Hammond: Yes, Mr. Speaker. Workplace Safety and Health Order Compliance Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker , finally for the Minister , an official with Workplace Safety and Health recently told us that not in a lifetime could all workplaces in Manitoba be inspected .

However, surely when the department knows of infractions , they should be capable of enforcing the compliance orders on a permanent basis . My final question: what steps will this Minister take to ensure that lasting compliance with orders is achieved and that follow-ups are done to protect the workers in Manitoba when we know the Workplace Health and Safety standards are not being met? Hon. Gerrie Hammond (Minister responsible for Workplace Safety and Health): Mr. Speaker , the staff at Workplace Safety and Health endeavour to follow up on all orders .

They are as much concerned as we are on this side of the House, as I am sure all of the House is, that these orders are complied with. We endeavour in the department to do our very best to make sure that they are complied with. If they are not and if the Member has any information that he would like to give me, we would be most happy to look into them. *

(1400) Northern Flooding Correspondence Request Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): My question is to the Premier (Mr. Filmon). On August 25 of this year the Mathias Colomb Band wrote to the Premier asking for some specific action from this Government to help them in their fight to receive justice on the issue of flood ing on the Churchill River, or fluctuations of the water level on the Churchill River. My question to the Premier is, has he responded to this August 25 letter?

Did he outline in his response, or has he outlined in a response, the Government's specific course of action in support of the people at Pukatawagan and Brochet? Can he indicate whether any concre te action has resulted from his response, if in fact he has given one? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I am aware that my·colleague, the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey), met with the Mathias Colomb Band last week and -1 believe that the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings) is meeting with them very shortly. I believe something has been set up. I recall the correspondence .

I believe that I did respond to it, but not having a copy of the correspondence before me, I will have to take that as notice. 2211 Northern Flooding Court Action Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, the people of Pukatawagan and Brochet and perhaps Native people across this province are wondering about the commitment of this Government to their issues, the pro tecti on of their environment, thei r water quality. My question is to the Min ister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) . The Minister of Northern Affairs did in fact meet with one representative from the bands affected.

However, the indications are that the meeti ng was nothing but hot air. Can the Minister of Northern Affairs indicate whether he has responded to the quest ion of whether they are going to be supporting the court action that the Mathias Colomb Band is contemplating? Are they prepared to give financial support and legal support to a justifi able action on the part of the people of Pukatawagan and Brochet? Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern and Native Affairs): Mr. Speaker , let me first of all, for the information of a man who should know what all is involved , there are more than two Indian Bands .

There are also some communit ies which are within the provincial jurisdiction that we care about as well. We care about the total communities involv ed , just not selective as the former Min ister . That is extremely important. Last Tuesday we had representations in my office meeting with them to discuss their concerns . Yes, there is a commi tment to support them all we can as a province . My colleague, the Minister of Env ironmen t (Mr. Cummings), may have more to add . He has as recently as yesterday met with the Saskatchew an Minister of Environment to discuss that very issue.

When there is more information which can be provided, a meeting will be arranged with the Minister of Environment, with all the communities to support them on their interests that had been neglected -(interjection)- for 15 years . Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please . Northern Flooding Court Action Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker , on Apr il 25 I was given an unequivocal letter from the Mini ster of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns) indicating tha t the province would use court action if necessary . I ask the Minister of Natural Resources or the First Minister (Mr.

Filmon), are they now reneging on that promise? Are they not going to support the people of Pukatawagan and Brochet? Are they going to try and talk this issue to death and wait until the dam is constructed before they act? Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr. Speaker, I can hardly embellish on the forthright answer given to this question by my colleague, the Minister responsible for Native Affairs (Mr. Downey). I, along with the rest of my colleagues, am endeavouring to do

Wednesday, October 25, 1989 our very best to bring resolut ion to this long-standing priority. I remind all the Members of the House , this dam was built by another jurisdiction in Saskatchewan some 35-40 years ago . It is left to this Government to finally bring some redress and some justice to this situation, and we are up to it. AIDS Prevention Programs Needle Exchange Program Mr. Guizar Cheema (Kildonan): My question is to the Minister of Health . Mr.

Speaker, as AIDS continues to grow, and last week media reports confirmed what we have said for months, that a number of street kids are using needles for drug abuse and thus exposing themselves for grea ter risk of getting AIDS, can the Minister of Health tell us why he is resisting the idea of needle exchange program in Manitoba? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend brings up the issue of street youth and their risk of exposure to AIDS .

The provincial Government and my department, in consultation with many groups having ability to serve and currently working with those individuals, have joined with the Department of Health to develop what I think will be a welcome initiative that I know my honourable friend will support in terms of new programming and new direction to bring the message of AIDS prevention and education to those street people who may not have had the same opportunity to take advantage of the very well-received advertising campaign that we have just recently completed . Mr. Cheema: Mr.

Speaker, we have asked this question three times. Why is he resisting the program for needle exchange in Manitoba? Can he give us the rationale , not the circumstantial evidence? Can he tell us why he is resisting that idea? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend , who is I woul d hope knowledgeable in recommended methods of AIDS prevention, would know that there is no evidence-and my honourable friend referred to evidence-that is the most effective approach to AIDS prevention .

In fact, no provincial jurisdiction in Canada is sponsoring a needle exchange program and my honourable friend, as a critic for Health , as a pract ising physician, ought to concern himself about evidence before suggesting to Government that they embark upon programs. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Health should just simply consul t his provincial counterparts and he will know. AIDS Treatment Terminal Care Facilities Mr. Guizar Cheema (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, my final question is, at present we do no have any terminal care community-based facility for AIDS victims in Manitoba .

Can he tell us when he will establish such a program to save money for tax dolla rs? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend's

preamble is incorrect. I have as recently as six weeks ago met with my provincial colleagues and the information I gave to him is accurate. His information , if it differs, is inaccurate. I simply ask him to pick up the phone and call the Department of Health , the Ministry of Health in Ontario if he wishes confirmation of that, or the Ministry of Health in British Columbia if he wishes confirmation of what I have just shared with him in the House . His facts are simply not correct. Lynngold Resources Inc. Closure Mr. Jay Cowan (Churchill): My question is to the Minister of Energy and Mines.

As the Minister knows, a possible closure of the Lynngold mining and milling operations in the Lynn Lake area is fast approaching as we move closer to November 6. Can the Minister at this time provide an update as to the status of the discussions and the negotiations that he has been holding with Lynngold , with the United Steel Workers of America , Local 5757 , and other affected parties with respect to trying to prevent the closure of this very important industry for northern Manitoba? Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minister of Energy and Mines): Mr.

Speaker, I think we should say first of all the decision to keep the mine operating or close the mine will be that of the company and not of the Government of Manitoba. It is true that the company has come to the Government for some help in enabling it to continue the operations. The Government has put an offer on the table and it is up to the company now to decide whether or not it is prepared to continue the operations in the light of that offer. Mr. Cowan: Mr. Speaker , that is not good enough .

Given that the company has just embarked today or yesterday upon locating or obtaining a large number of locks, links of chain, hasps, which they will use to lock up their operations and houses in the community and they are now running through their checklist for closing the operations, will the Minister do someth ing more than just say this is a company decision, and call the company immediately to make certain that this operation does not shut down, throwing out of work hundreds of individual s and their families and having a tremendous negative impact on the economy of northern Manitoba and the economy of the province as a whole?

Is he prepared to live up to his responsibility to help develop the North rather than stand idly by and watch it go down? Mr. Neufeld: Mr. Speaker, it should be said first of all, the Government has not stood idly by. The Government has been in constant consultation with the company, with the people in the community, with their union since sometime toward the end of May. The decision, as I said, to continue the operations will be that of the company . The company owns the assets; the company must decide what it must do with them. 2212

Wednesday, October 25, 1989 The Government cannot, it is not in a position, Mr. Speaker, to prop up the gold price around the world. The gold mine at Lynn Lake, Manitoba, would not be open today if it was not for the high gold price of a couple of years ago. The low gold price of today makes the operation uneconomic and, as I said earlier, the decision will be that of the company. The Government will do everything it can to see that the operations continue and, if it does not continue, to do everything possible · for the people of the community. •

(1410) Lynngold Resources Inc. Payment of Wages Mr. Jay Cowan (Churchill): Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Neufeld) has obviously turned his back on that community. I direct a question to the Minister of Labour (Mrs. Hammond) to determine if she will live up to her ministerial responsibility a bit more adequately. The company has informed employees that they will not be entitled to their termination pay or to their holiday pay until after this matter is resolved, which is in direct conflict and violation of The Payment of Wages Act.

Will the Min ister contact her department to contact the company immediately to tell them that even though they may be contemplating closing the mine, and even though this Government may refuse to help them or the community, they still have to live up to their legal obligations of The Payment of Wages Act and treat their employees fairly? Hon. Gerrie Hammond (Minister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, our department has been in constant contact with the mining community. The labour adjustment unit has been going for some time and these matters are being looked after . Red River City of Winnipeg Mrs.

Gwen Charles (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, we all recognize that Toronto Harbour is known for its degree of pollution, and yet this last year in February students from the University of Winnipeg compared the level of pollutants in the Red River to the Toronto Harbour. The Red River is about 100 times worse than Toronto Harbour. This, even with some allowances for discrepancies in the students' testings, is not acceptable . My question is to the Minister of Environment. What are his plans with the City of Winnipeg? Can he detail them and table the procedures? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Well Mr.

Speaker, again it would appear that the Liberal Party is trying to consistently get provincial politics embroiled in even today, election day in the city of Winnipeg. I have to tell you that I have indicated a couple of times in the Legislature that I am working with Iha City of Winnipeg, that I expect there ,will be announcements that will be made shortly , and they will be of the nature that will be considered important news environmentally. Those announcements will be made in due course . Mrs. Charles: Mr. Speaker , this is a provincial matter, it is not in the middle of the city politics.

If he does not know what his responsibilities are, then he should relook at his books. Mr. Speaker, the question is to the Minister of the Environment (Mr. Cummings). You keep promising these plans and yet there is such a low level of interest in the City of Winnipeg . What is he doing to make this deplorable degree of pollution made aware to the public and the citizens of Winnipeg? Mr. Cummings: I do not agree, Mr. Speaker, that there is a deplorable lack of-interest on the part of the people of the City of Winnipeg. It seems to me that the City of Winnipeg is becoming very environmentally conscious .

That is where a lot of the leaders in environmental matters reside and take their interest from .-(interjection)- Well, I hear a crack from the third Party saying that it is the Minister who is not interested. Where were they for the last five years? ***** Mr. Speaker: Order , please; order , please . The Honourable Member for Concordia, on a point of order . Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): My point of order, and it is a very technical legislative matter , if you will bear with me in terms of our rules.

The Bill was passed in July of '87, it was proclaimed on March 31, 1988 , and the Minister has been breaking the law ever since. It is a very simp le fact.- (interjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order. The Honourable Member does not have a point of order . A dispute over the facts is not a point of order . Mr. Cummings: Does he have a point of order, Mr. Speaker? Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member does not have a point of order . ***** Mr. Cummings: Unfortunately when we came to office, this province was rated nationally as 10 out of 10 in being concerned about environmental matters. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh!. Mr.

Speaker: Order, order. Mr. Cummings: I reiterate my concern and my willingness to work with the City of Winnipeg, and I want to reassure the Member for Selkirk (Mrs. Charles) that we have the attention of the City of Winnipeg and 2213

Wednesday, October 25, 1989 the process of bringing the city outfalls into licence will go ahead . Mr. Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired . INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS Mr. Speaker: Prior to Orders of the Day, I would like to draw Honourable Members ' attention to the gallery , where we have from the Hugh John Macdonald School , twenty Grade 9 students , and they are under the direction of Cynthia Manswell. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Logan (Ms . Hemphill) . On behalf of all Honourable Members , I welcome you here this afternoon . ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon.

Clayton ManneH (Acting Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker , today the order of Bills that will be debated is as follows: Bills No. 56, 27, 32, 31, 42, 34 and 53. Following the completion of these Bills, the House will proceed to Bill No. 6 and the remaining Bills as they appear on the Order Paper. Further to that , Mr. Speaker , the Government House Leader probably will want to give further direction as to Private Members' Hour before five o'clock . Further to the Orders of the Day, I wonder if I can make -(interjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order , please .

I am sure Honourable Members will want to hear this announcement. Mr. Manness: In fairness to all Members of the House, and I think there is a common agreement between the

Part ies that the House should rise at five o'clock. Mr. Speaker : Is there agreement to recess the House at five o'clock? (Agreed) Yes, we will be adjourning the House at five o'clock . I would like to thank the Honourable Acting Government House Leader for that announcement. SECOND READINGS BILL NO. 56-THE WORKERS COMPENSATION AMENDMENT ACT

(2) Hon. Edwa rd Connery (Minister of Co-operative, Consumer and Corporate Affairs) presented Bill No. 56, The Workers Compensation Amendment Act (2); Loi no 2 modifiant la

Loi sur les accidents du travail, for second reading, to be referred to a committee of this House . MOTION presented. Mr. Connery: It is indeed a pleasure to speak on second reading on Bill No. 56. Mr. Speaker, as we all know the operation of the Workers Compensation is one of our most important functions in the province to deal with injured workers. So it is indeed a pleasure to speak shortly on this Bill. *

(1420) The Bill is divided into two main components . First of all, the Bill deals with governance and the appeals provisions, and secondly it deals with the technical and the administrat ive matters. I think it is important to indicate to the House that subsequent to the passage of this Bill, we will be bringing forward another Bill to address the major benefits packages and other matters such as the indexing of pensions for workers so we do not have to bring forward a Bill every two years . Mr. Speaker , I think it is very important to recognize that the WCB is a very significant institution.

It serves both the employees and employers. There are approximately 400,000 employees affected under the employ of some 22,000 employers . They come from all walks of life and all sorts of working endeavours . (Mr. William Chornopyski , Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) The Workers Compensation Board has been around for some 75 years . The intent of the Workers Compensation Board is to protect employees against financial losses arising from accidents and illness occurring at the workplace . In turn , the employees gave up their right to sue employers in cases where they were injured. Mr.

Deputy Speaker , the WCB really strives to rehabilitate injured workers and also provides pension to disabled employees and the dependents of workers injured in workplace accidents . No one argues against the existence of the WCB. Without such a plan, our economy would not be as stable nor would employees be as protected . Mr. Deputy Speaker , I do think the Workers Compensation Board does an adequate job of protecting workers , and we are striving very hard to make it that much more efficient to better protect injured workers and to rehabilitate them.

This Bill would better provide for the WC's operational independence from Government, assist in its independent setting of rates and policies, somewhat different from what the previous Government did where they dictated the assessment rates , and better provide for the WCB to meet the statutory requirements to live within its means, features seemingly lost during the time of the last Government. Mr. Deputy Speaker , the Lyon Government left the WCB with a situation in 1981 where there were balanced books . There was surplus of operation-something over $30 million in surpluses .

There were low assessment rates, and there were up-to-date appeal processes . People did not have to wait a significantly long time to have their appeals heard. It was indeed an independent and part-time board . Mr. Deputy Speaker, when we took over, this Government was greeted with very poor service levels . 2214

Wednesday, October 25, 1989 We had misleading books. In fact the books were very poorly kept. We had extreme deficit operations; we had high assessment rates and forecasts of even higher assessment rates . The five prior years to us taking over there were increases of some 20 percent a year, and the appeal backlogs were very, very long . I am very pleased to say that I had a call from Mr. Brian King only a couple of weeks ago indicating that everyone who wanted an appeal to the board of commissioners had a date set, and in fact there were openings as early as November 6.

The reason the opening was there was that those wanting their appeals heard were not ready to go before the board of commissioners. So we think that while we are not exactly where we want to be, we have come a long , long way to resolving the backlog in appeals . Mr. ,Qeputy Speaker, there was evidence of Government involvement in board operations. I think that all Parties recognize that this is an independent body and Government interference is not acceptable and will not be good for the operations .

This Government has kept to a statutory role responsibility for the Act, ·board appointments , and monitoring of operational adequacy . There has been much progress. This Bill would provide and prepare for even more. Mr. Deputy Speaker , let me talk about the-I gather you are having trouble hearing too, Mr. Deputy Speaker . Mr. Deputy Speaker: I wonder if we might have a little bit of order in the House, please, a little order . Mr. Connery: I am very pleased to see the Member for Radisson (Mr. Patterson) here who is the critic for Workers Compensation . The critic for the third Party is in the loge .

I wish he would be over here and be able to listen very carefully as to what is happening. (interjection)- Well, we are dealing with the Workers Compensation and the Member is the critic, and I think it is a very, very important piece of legislation that the Member- ***** Mr. Deputy Speaker: The Honourable Member for Dauphin . Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Minister has been around here enough already, I believe . On a point of order, he has been around - (interjection)- Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order . Order, please . On a point of order. Mr.

Plohman: He has been around here long enough to know that it is not appropriate, not proper parliamentary procedure or ethics for him to refer to the presence or absence of Members or where they may be located in the Chamber at any particular time, and he should withdraw and apologize for making those comments. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The Honourable Member for Thompson, on the same point of order . Mr. Steve Ashton {Thompson): Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker . I think it would be appropriate for the Minister to withdraw those comments . I have been talking to the Minister of Health (Mr.

Orchard) on a very important matter related to the Department of Health budgets . I am also the critic for the Department of Health. I am talking to the Minister of Health at his request , and I think it is totally inappropriate for the Minister to suggest anything, whether I am listening or not to the Bill. I have read the Bill ; I will be commenting on the Bill. I would be falling through on my responsibilities as Compensation critic , but I find it offensive that the Minister would put those kinds of comments on the record when I have been meeting with the Minister of Health at his request . Mr.

Deputy Speaker: I have not heard what was really said . There was too much noise in the House at the time . I will however take that under advisement and come back with a decision . ***** Mr. Deputy Speaker: The Honourable Minister has the floor. Mr. Connery: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and I appreciate the attention of the two critics in this most important piece of legislation . First of all, I would like to speak on governance and appeal provisions. Mr. Deputy Speaker, the governance and appeal amendments signify the first modernization of board governance in nearly 70 years.

Since assuming office I have become acutely aware of problems arising out of the board commissioners structure, problems that have slowed progress despite numerous positive steps ; steps such as the appointment of a second appeal board and the actions of a commited WCB management team . The five main problems with the presen t structure are: the appeals board or boards could disagree on policy and act

interpretations with each other or with the board as a whole. This would lead to uncertainty for both employers and injured workers . Appeal commissioners may be influenced by fiscal considerations reducing the fairness of appeal decisions. Appeal backlogs could become a growing problem if commissioners again became involved in administration and policy matters. I do appreciate the efforts of the two appeal commissions .

I asked them to devote all of their time to the appeals back log so that injured workers would indeed have their appeals heard quickly and a decision rendered within a very short period of time, and I can say, Mr. Deputy Speaker , that they are co-operating very, very well , and I give them thanks for that. The structure reduces the ability to recruit senior industry and labour leaders to consider board policy and directional matters in an objective manner .

The way it is today, having to be a full-time chairman does not allow other people to become part of it, and with the changes and allowing for part-time people, Mr. Deputy Speaker ,-we will 'indeed allow just about anybody 2215

Wednesday, October 25, 1989 from labour or management to be on the board and to lend their expertise in resolving problems with the Workers Compensation Board or developing policy. The relationship between the administration and day-to day activities, and the stewardship role of the board is still rather undefined and uncertain . *

(1430) The WCB is a large and important Manitoba institution, important to overall society but more importantly to individual employees and their employers. It requires a modern organizational structure. The weakness and problems experienced in Manitoba had been noted elsewhere in Canada . Other provinces already have moved to modern structures . Such provinces as Quebec, Ontario, Alberta, British Columbia , Newfoundland, and New Brunswick now differentiate between a board of directors and their appea l process . This Bill, Mr. Deputy Speaker , is consistent with the action of other jurisdictions .

I would now like to highlight some of the main provisions of the amendments. The right to appeal, which to date is not structurally provided , is stipulated in legislation; that was not there before . Basically, it was done by matter, by routine, but now it is stipulated in legislation . The tripartite nature of the board balancing the interests of society, employers and employees are enshrined . The current Act, it should be noted, does not provide statutorily even for a bipart ite approach. It is currently based on tradition, not statute, and I think it is important to enshrine these in statute .

These amendments create a nine-person board , three representati ves of the pub lic interest, th ree each of employer and worker interest; a neutral chairperson is statutorily required. These amendments establish a triparti te appeals commission , separate rosters for public interests , employer and employee interests . One of each is required to form a panel. With the additions to the appeals commission , it now becomes possible to appoint people in the North from the employer and employee side to adjudicate claims in the North by sending up an independent chairperson along maybe with some staff.

We can now have Northerners adjudicating on those injured in the North, and I think this is a very important function. The structure can be somewhat more along the lines of the Manitoba Labour Board where different people can be appointed, not necessarily full time. We do believe it is important to have some full-time appeals people there, and those would likely be situated in Winnipeg. Mr. Deputy Speaker , these amendments establish a policy committee with representatives of each broad inte rest group.

There is provision for the poss ible appointment of one employer and one employee representative from the appeal commission to serve on the board of directors. If appointed, these two commissioners would bring their full-time observances to the board. So we maintain that very important link of full-time people being on the larger board so that they would bring their expertise and their concerns in hearing appeals . We are concerned that the appeals commissioners not be on the policy so that we do not get the concern for adjudication involved in policy setting .

They are not allowed to sit on the policy committee, but there will be two from management, two from labour, two from the committee at large, and the chairman who will be on that policy committee . So it will be truly tripartite. Mr. Deputy Speaker, rosters would be established outside of Winnipeg , as already mentioned, and we could also have even some in Brandon . It does not only have to be from the North, but we could have people from the -(interjection)- well, the Member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) says satellite offices.

We are looking at satellite offices , that is possible, or they could be involved with other departments that will allow us to keep the costs at a reasonable level. Our first concern is service to the injured worker. That will be foremost in our minds when we make these important decisions . The amendments provide for the solicitation of nomination to the board of directors and the appeal commission from the employer and worker constituencies . Many of these will serve part time , bringing even more independence of thought to the WCB .

These amendments honour the Government's commitment to ensure balanced development at the WCB. These amendments recognize the desire for a day-to-day separation of adjudication and policy. That was not there in the past, and there was some overlap and it created some problems with dealing with policy as it related to injured workers . There is the desire to avoid conflicts of interest. The desire to have a statute given right-of-appeal within a tripartite organization ensuring that worker, employer and tripartite, the community at large are represented.

It is important to recogn ize with the addition of the community at large representatives on that board making it tripartite . Really, it is the community, the consumers of goods, that pay in the long run for the cost of Workers Compensation. It is important to have them represented and also to bring the total community into focus when we are dealing with injured workers. In

summary , Mr. Deputy Speaker, these governance and appeal amendments honour a commitment of this Government to bring clarity and good organizational practices to the WCB . These amendments would be proclaimed, hopefully, January 1, 1990. Now dealing with the technical amendments, the other amendments, the technical amendments remedy long standing deficiencies . Some were noted in the recommendations of the Legislative Review Committee, others by legal advisors and WCB staff. The proposed amendments reflect and strengthen the balance of the Act between the interests of employers, labour and society .

Several consequential amendments are also being made to The Criminal Injuries Compensation Act, which mirrors The Workers Compensation Act in some particulars. Mr. Deputy Speaker , the four main areas in which provision stabilized the social balance between the interests of employers and labour are antiquated provisions that have been eliminated , such as those 2216

Wednesday, October 25, 1989 that require the employer to pay for ambulance service , and those that impose restrictive and detailed stipulations respecting hernias . Overall fairness has been advanced, such as through modifyi ng the composition of medical review panels so that each party may nominate a physician of choice to the medical review panel, but the physician may not have treated the worker nor be the company 's doctor . The medical review panels have been made generic with the eliminatioo of special panels for neurosis.

Also , parallel treatment is accorded to employers and workers in that bot h can be charged with making false statements to the board . In the past, the stipulations that were present were directed at employers alone. Safety and prevention activities of the board are expanded through allowing the board to make grants to safety associations , for example, the Manitoba Health Organization and associated unions are in the process of submitting a bipartisan application for funding of safety programs and confidentiality provisions are strengthened and apply to worker and employer information . Mr.

Deputy Speaker , in talking about safety associations and Workplace Safety and Health , it is indeed the primary goal that we would prevent accidents from happening. We would be delighted if the role of Workers Compensation diminished significantly because there were no injured workers and , of course, that is the foremost goal that all of us have in this House is to work very hard to preventing injuries. Mr. Deputy Speaker , a number of provisions will be attractive to employers without diminishing benefits to workers .

The most important of these are the fiscal responsibility of the board has been strengthened through allowing for prudent reinsurance which protects the cons iderable sums employers have contributed to reserves by allowing for interest to be charged, refunded on overpayments or underpayments , and by allowing for the collection of accounts from firms which have been sold or have passed into receivership. Certain , non-Canadian residents working for non Canadian companies may be excluded from applications of the Act. Mr.

Deputy Speaker , this involves truckers coming into Manitoba or Canada who already have Workers Compensation in their home jurisdiction and are covered in Manitoba, so it eliminates that not only a nuisance but an added burden , with no real benefit to Manitoba. Restrictions have been placed on the powers of the board to force entry to a business. Mr. Deputy Speaker, this particular

section complies with the Charter of Rights, but it is also important that we have access to ensure that injured workers get the proper adjudication, so we have included that . Amendments affecting labour , Mr. Deputy Speaker, four amendments will be particularly attractive to labour without restricting the rights of the employers . The amendments remove a number of historical irritants at very little cost to the program . Mr. Deputy Speaker , the definition of spouse is modern[?~d so as- to be consistept with The Family 2217 Maintenance Act.

Children who are dependen t on a fatality will receive benefits to the age of 18 rather than 16, con sisten t with the age of majority. Emergency benefits may be provided to family members of a worker so as to be compen sated, for instance, while attending on a worker in a hospital. The calculations of average earnings is made fairer for workers declared to be employees of Government . At the same time, these provisions are applied to casual emergency workers , such as volunteer firefighters and ambulance personnel which has the effect of increasing their benefits. *

(1440) These housekeeping amendments are beneficial to both stakeholders of the board. They will take effect when proclaimed over a period of time as the board is administratively ready. I am assured that this will take place very quickly. If adopted , they signal the commitment of this Legislature to remedy serious technical weaknesses in the Act which have persisted for many years . A number of these weaknesses , as well as governance and appeal matters, were the subject of intense scrutiny and comment by the Legislative Review Committee which repo rte d in May 1987.

The LAC Report contained 178 recommendations. Many of these recommendations related to matters of policy, practice or organizat io n at the board . A significant number of such recommendations have either been adopted or are under consideration in making as recommendations regarding Act amendments . The LAC wrote "the actual function of redrafting a complex law involves an ongoing and dynamic process ." So we are, Mr. Deputy Speaker, in the process, but once we have completed the amendments, we will continue on to improve the Workers Compensation .

In recognition of this fact, the present package of amendments is, in the view of the Government, but one step in this continuing process. The Government intends to bring forward at an appropriate time further amendments related to other matters of interest to both employers and worke rs such as revisions to the benefit provisions. It is interesting to note the Member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) , the critic for the New Democratic Party, saying " small steps." We think these are significant steps. He tried to insinuate that it would be two years before we brought in legislation because he read an

article in the newspaper. Mr. Deputy Speaker , we are very pleased to have come in very quickly with these amendments and very thankful to the two Opposition Parties for having adopted very quickly the indexing of those pensions which allowed for people to have their indexes very quickly. Although I was criticized for not coming in sooner, and it was October when those cheques went out, we have to recognize that we did not sit from the end of June until the 18th of September, and the previous year, even though we sat through July and August, never went out until September . So I think we did fairly well, and I thank the Members opposite for their speedy

Wednesday, October 25, 1989 passage of the Bill which was so crucial to injured workers . Mr. Deputy Speaker , we also deal with the amendments substantially consistent with the LAC recommendations. I would like to point out sections of the legislat ive package which are consistent with 15 important recommendations of the LAC : The LAC in recommendation (1) recommended the Act be written in simple , comprehensive language. Nearly 20 sections of the Act, not otherwise amended for some standard reasons , have been deleted or reworded for the purpose of simple clarity.

The LAC recommended (2) that outdated sections be removed such as references to specific diseases and conditions, hern ia, dermatitis , neurosis, silicosis , and the mortality clauses. This has been done except that to some extent the provisions related to silicosis remain where they provide for considerations not otherwise available under the Act . The LAC recommended that reporting obligations of employers should remain. With these amendments we have continued with the employer reporting obligations.

The LAC recommended that the board negotiate new medical reporting protocols and fee schedules with the Manitoba Medical Association . The present amendments provide for clear authority on the part of the board to set a fee

schedule and also to provide for a broader group of medical professionals including chiropractors, osteopaths , nurses, and hospitals to provide suitable reports . The LAC recommended that the board take some action to reinsure its liabilities . The Act has been so amended. The LAC recommended that the surviving dependant children be entitled to benefits age 17, rather than 16, and we have gone to age 18. The LAC recommended that the board's powers to divert benefits from the worker to his/her spouse be revoked , and this has been done .

The LAC recommended that the power to inflate a minor's average earnings be revoked , and this is being done . The LAC recommended that those sections of the Act deal ing with survivor benefits which discriminate on the basis of marital status should be amended to provide equal treatment.

The treatment of one or more dependant spouses under the Act has been thoroughly revised in several ways : the definition of "spouse" has been expanded and remains similar to that in The Family Mainten ance Act ; moreover , if there is more than one dependant spouse, such as a common-law spouse and a legally separated spouse , then benefits may be divided among them. The LAC recommended that the Board of Commissioners be tripartite in nature . The tripartite nature of the Board of Directors, the Appeal Commission and the policy committees is indeed established .

The LAC recommended the Government closely consult with the respective interes t groups on all 2218 appointments to the Board of Commi ssioners . This requirement is in the statute . The LAC recommended that the Board of Commissioners define as functions as policy development , strategic management which would leave the running of the day-to-day operations to the staff at the board . Under the proposed statute a specific policy committee is established . It is a mechanism for receiving reports from the chief executive officer who is a non-voting member.

The LAC recommended that the College of Physicians and Surgeons should replace the Manitoba Medical Association as the appropriate body to supply the board with lists of medical specialists. This has been implemented . The LAC recommended that an appropriate fee

schedule be negotiated between the WCB and the MMA. Under the statutory amendments, the WCB will have the authority to establish fees . The LAC recommended that all final appeals should be heard by a three member panel composed of an Appeals chairperson , one labour member of the Board of Commissioners , and one management member of the Board of Commissioners. The Appeal panels are to be structured in this way. Amendments partially consistent with the LAC recommendation: the Government has partially accepted six further recommendations.

The LAC recommended that injured workers should have access to speedy appeals within defined limits. Other than granting precise time limits in the legislation, the amendments propose to grant the right of appeal and to establish a clear process for appellants to pursue . The LAC recommended that the chairperson and one member each from the business community and the labour community be appointed full time . As things stand now, the members of the appeal bodies, functioning at the board, are appointed full time and the legislation would certainly allow this to continue if workloads demand it.

The LAC recommended that there be four additional part-time members appointed to the board, two each from the business and labour community . As well, the LAC recommended that two alternative members be appointed , one from business and one from labour , to serve only in the absence of a member of their constituency . The Government has simplified these two recommendations and combined them into one, in effect , by appointing a 10-person board of directors . The LAC recommended that three part-t ime appeal chairpersons, acceptable to both labour and management, be appointed by Government .

The Act provides for neutral chairpersons to be appointed, based on a roster of appeal commissioners appointed in the public interest. Such individuals may serve part time or full time , depending on workload and may be in a position to travel around Manitoba joining locally based part-time panel members in deliberating on appeals. Once again, as I said earlier , we could have members on the Appeals Commission from the North, from other parts of Manitoba, and this would facilitate

Wednesday, October 25, 1989 those hearings and also ensure that the injured worker has been given adjudication consistent with the climate under which they work . The LRC recommended that the appeal persons not be voting members of the Board of Commissioners , but be invited to attend policy and planning meetings of the board . The statutes provide that the appeal chairpersons not be members of the board. Mr. Deputy Speaker , the LRC recommended that a quorum for appeals at the Board ·of ·Commissioners level be a tripartite pane l of three members .

Under the proposed amendments the quorum has been set at two ; however, the chief appeal commissioner has been left with the authority to direct an item from one panel to another , so that any possible injustice can be eliminated . The ..Government has not yet accepted one recommendation . The LRC recommended that professionals wi·th relevant knowledge should be included on medical review panels. This recommendation has not been implemented at this time as further consultation is required .

However, the composition of medical review panels has been amended to be less adversarial in that the worker's own physician and the company's doctor may not be nominated . Although the present amendments are not intended to address all matters of concern with the Act , I am very pleased to note that in 21 particular areas specific recommendations of the Legislature Review Committee have been adopted, either substantially or partially . Progress note d: Before concluding , I would like to inform you of the cons iderable progress achieved at the board since the spring of 1988.

A cohesive, experienced and committed management team is in place . Mr. Deputy Speaker, we think that we do have indeed a committed team of workers at Workers Comp who are striving very hard to improve the system at Workers Comp and it is moving very quickly . We have a plann ing department that is functioning; consultations are ongoing with the stakeholders . •

(1450) Mr. Deputy Speaker , to that effec t I had a meeting inviting all of the union members . We had a meeting in the Convention Centre and I think there were some 70 union members that met with myself and the chairman of the board , Judge Bob Kopstein . We listened to all the concerns that they had and some of those concerns resulted in changes that we made along this line, especially in the structwe of the governance. Mr. Deputy Speaker , modern technology is being put in place and this goes on from computers , et cetera . The telephone system is being modernized.

In the past you just could not get through on the phone , it was an archaic system , and it took a lot of work for the MTS to put in a very modern and updated system. Now, I think most people can get through usually on their first call , and I have tested it out many times myself just to see if we could get through and lately I have not had a busy number. The facilities haye been updated and there has been ,. a,lot, qf f~nqvating . and. mo11[og around in the Worker.s Comp to make the flow work. Policies and procedures are being written .

There was a problem with the old board where with the polarization we did have some difficulty in getting policy put through . We have a training department in place . Mr. Deputy Speake r, one of my concerns was when I spoke with the management that the bottom line was not the key issue with the Workers Compensation, the key issue was the servicing of injured workers . I said, if additional employees are required , then that is the route that they should take. They have hired some 30 employees the last time I asked the CEO, Mr.

Graham Lane, and some of these are adjudicators and all the way through to ensure that the flow is much quicker . The infrastructure required for a modern organization is being put in place after seven years of severe neglect. As well, primary adjudication , claims process ing has been streamlined . Many injured workers receiv ed their first compensation cheques much faster . Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am told that now within five days 45 percent of injured workers , where there will be a time loss, are adjudicated within five days.

I said earlier that the backlog of appeals, everybody is being heard and there are openings for other hearings to take place. Rehabilitation efforts have been intens ified . I can remember reading reports that if anybody was not at work for a year or more the chances of them going back into the work system was 10 percent or less, and this was not acceptable to us, and I do not think it is acceptable to any Party in thi s Chamber or any Member in this Chamber. Employment Services have been enhanced . The telephones work , complaints are thoroughly investigated . Mr. Deputy Speaker, we have a WCB ombudsman .

This gentleman is a lawyer and he is there for any injured worker to go to to complain . If they are not happy or satisfied with the way their case is being handled , they will get a third-person look at it to ensure that it has been. The ombudsman is an impartial person who is independent of the Workers Compensation Board . More employees are covered and the Act is being administered . In the case of the employees, independent contractors is one where we have brought in a lot more employees who prior were not being covered . Financial responsibility is also importa nt.

The WCB is the steward of funds comm itte d to it. The books must meet and are meeting acceptable standards. Private sector rates have declined, as we have said earlier, five years in a row at 20 percent increases , and those 20 percent increases did not cover the cost incurred by the Government at that time or by the WCB. Public sector employers are no longer subsidized by private sector employers; this was very important, is the separation . Balanced operations have been achieved at no cost to injured workers .

Today we are paying the future pensions of workers injured in the workplace today , and in our next package we will be looking at addressing the deficit that is in place, a deficit, . depending what, you.put all into it, of over $200 million. 2219

Wednesday, October 25, 1989 So after incurring a $260 million deficit from 1982 to the spring of 1988, a little over five years, the program is meeting the legislated requirements to break even on a year -to-year basis. The WCB is becoming less of a factor in the expansion and relocation decisions of employers . A level playing field is being provided. Assessment appeals are drastically down . The WCB is a far better place than it was in the spring of 1988 and the accomplishments have occurred without Government interference in assessment of claims issues . Mr. Deputy Speaker, that is very important.

That decision was made unilaterally by the Board of Commissioners . They have also tight-fisted restraint on needed administrative components . Needed staff have been added where required, but they have administrated very frugally to keep the cost down . As I said earlier, that the cost is borne by society and by consumers , so any waste on behalf of the WCB is paid by the consumers and by the workers of Manitoba . The WCB now has an organization and a plan .

It has the opportunity to fu rther improve and perhaps look to more universal coverage to cover more of the workplace , co-operation with employees, employers , WS&H and reduced accidents, eventually better use of investment pool to build a growing Manitoba, an integrated disability assurance plan for all Manitobans, this covering 24 hours a day, may at some point be possib le. Mr. Deputy Speaker, this Bill is only another step on the road to a fully effective pro gram but an important step, and I recommend it to you .

In closing, I want to say that the No. 1 concern that I have as the Minister responsible for Workers Comp ensation, the Government of Manitoba and I know from both Opposition Parties that the injured workers are the No. 1 concern that we have. We may have some disagreements on the direction we are taking . I am prepared to talk with Opposition Members. We will be having briefin gs made available for them so that our lawyers and staff can sit down and explain various sections of the legislation to them so that they fully underst and the legislation .

We want to ensure that the debate on Workers Compensation is very compr ehensive and in a learned and knowledgeable way so if there is any requirements from the Opposition of expanded knowledge , we will afford them that opportunity. Mr. Deputy Speaker, with that I recommend Bill No. 56 to the House. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Deputy Speaker , with leave, can I ask the Minister one very short brief question? Mr. Deputy Speaker : Agreed. Proceed. Mr. Lamoureux: Thank you , Mr. Deputy Speaker, and I thank the Chamber for granting me the leave.

I was just going to ask the Minister if he knows in terms of what number we are at a backlog at the Review Committee? From what I understand there is the initial adjudicator, then it goes to a Review Committee, and then to the board itself for the final appeal. I understand that has been cleared up. I am just curious to what the backlog is currently at the other middle level. Mr. Connery: Mr. Deputy Speaker , I do not have that on hand . We do have our staff here , and we can get that information for you very quickly .

At one point they were right caught up, there was somewhat of a backlog at the review sector , but we can get that information . I would be pleased to get it for you . It is available , I just do not have it with me. Mr. Ashton: I also have a request for clarif ication , Mr. Deputy Speaker . It does not require leave . Our practice in the House has been to allow for short questions on Second Reading. I just would like to ask the Minister , he referenced the fact that 15 of the Review Committee's recommendations are included in this Bill.

I am wondering if he could indicate to the Members of this House how many recommendations were included in the Review Committee overall. I believe it was 178, and I would like to ask him what action, if any, is going to be taken on the remaining recommendations of the Review Committee , and why many of those important Review Committee recommendations were not included as part of this Bill? Mr.

Connery: Yes, I am somewhat amazed at the memory of the Member but , nevertheless, the Board of Commissioners using the recommendations of the LRC, their experience , the experience of the CEO and the staff at Workers Compensation, will be making recommendations to me on an ongoing basis . We hope to have available for the next Session if that is possible, I do not know if it is. We have to do all of the consultations with labour and management, but many of those recommendations will likely be coming forward . I am not going to comment on them until I receive the recommendations from the Board of Commissioners .

It would not be appropriate . They are the ones who are recommending to me. It is the Government that makes the final recommendation to legislation, but I will be awaiting that Board of Commissioners to make those recommendations to me. *

(1500) I can assure you, with the calibre of people that we have on there now and with the expansion of the board to include more representatives from management and indeed more representatives from labour, we will have a truly tripartite input into those recommendations for injured workers . I look forward to them, and I am sure this House will be very pleased with what they bring forward . Mr. Ashton: Perhaps , Mr. Deputy Speaker, I can just focus it a bit because the Minister did not deal with the basic question I had .

He referenced a number of Review Committee recommendations that are included in this Bill and he mentions 15. He says there were six other partial recommendations . How many other 2220

Wednesday, October 25, 1989 recommendations have not been included as part of this Bill? Apart from the general process, are we ever going to see some of those recommendations, the well over 100 other additional recommendations that have not been acted on, many of which are legislated? That was my specific question, if he can give me the exact number of recommendations that still remain to be acted on. Mr. Connery: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, 16 and six subtracted from 178 and you get the numbers , but many of those recommendations of the LRC might be coming forward in recommended legislative change which the Board of Commissioners will be bringing forth. I explained to the Member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) , the critic for the NOP, that labour will have full input at all times to the policy development.

So his concerns, if they are concerns and I am sure that he will submit them to labour membe rs and I hope not only to the labour members , to all members of the Board of Commissioners, because once these people are appointed to the Board of Commissioners they do not represent client groups any more, they are there to adjudicate in the best way they can injured workers and that is the role of the Board of Commissioners . I look forward to the recommendations they bring , and I can assure the Member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) that they will be in the best interest of injured workers. Mr.

Allan Patterson (Radisson): Mr. Deputy Speaker , I would move, seconded by the Member for St. James (Mr. Edwards), that debate be adjourned on Bill 56. MOTION presented and carried. DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS BILL NO. 27-THE FISCAL STABILIZATION FUND ACT Mr. Deputy Speaker: On a proposed motion by the Honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), Bill No. 27, The Fisca l Stabilization Fund Act (Loi sur le Fonds de stabilisati on des recettes), standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) , the Honourable Member for St. James. Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr.

Deputy Speaker , I would ask for leave of the House to speak on this Bill and leave the Bill standing in the name of the Member for Osborne. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The Honourable Member does not need leave to speak . Is there leave to have the Bill remain standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Osborne? (Agreed) Mr. Edwards: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker . It gives me great pleasure to stand today in abject opposition to this Bill .

The Fiscal Stab ilizati on Fund , when it first came forward in the Budget Speech a few months ago, the first thing that rang into my head was the Budget Stabilization Fund, also known as the BS Fund which the Government of British Columb ia tried to perpetrate on those people and which the people of British Columbia rightly saw as a scam , tricky bookkeeping , and in fact very much close to a fraud on the people . This has basically been patterned on that experience. This Government thinks that they can do what the Province of British Columbia tried to do to the people of British Columbia.

I think that they are wrong, because the tricky bookkeeping, the scam that they are attempting to do by fooling people into thinking that there is in fact a deficit, to show a grada ted deficit , which is what they would like to do, is not believed . (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) The fact is that my Tory friends , and I do have Tory friends, lots of them, and they tell me, they say, Paul, we see through this . They say, we are not fooled by this, so I do not think this Gove rnment is fooling even its allies, even the people who are out there , saying that they suppo rt this Government, do not suppo rt this Bill.

They know what it is about, it is a Cabinet slush fund. I will talk about my NOP friends later on, I just thought I would start speaking about my Tory friends and the fact that even though they support this Government they see through this Bill. They saw through it five minutes after it was spoken about as I met them out in the hall after the Budget Speech , the first thing that they said was, well, this is tricky bookk eep ing and it really does not mean much. What it is is $200 million set aside for the Cabinet to spend when and if they feel like it. Mr.

Speaker , I want to look specifically at the Bill because I think it is impo rtant to read the specific operative sections even though it is a very short Bill.

Section 2(2) headed Purpose of Fund : The purpose of the fund is to assist in stabilizing the fiscal position of the Governmen t from year to year and to improve long-term fiscal planning. I do not think you could have drafted a more open , broad , discr eti onary power in a Government , in fact in a Cabinet , for the expenditure of funds . Then we go over to Sect ion 4, Transfers Out of the Fund .

The Minister , in this case the Minister is defined as the Minister of Finance , may for the purpose mentioned in subsection 2(2), which I have just read, and- An Honourable Member : You cannot reference sections in second readings . Mr. Edwards: Well, the Member for Churchill (Mr. Cowan) says I cannot reference sections in second reading . This whole Bill has 11 sections. I am only going to read two, surely the Member for Churchill will let me specifically talk about

Section 4 of this Act. I think the Member for Church ill is a bit embarrassed about this Act and the fact that his Government has spoken at length haranguing on about how bad it is for the people of Manitoba and then came up with the famous " but" which the people of this province have heard a few times, the " but " heard round the province . In any event, without reading the spec ific words in

Section 4- 2221

Wednesday, October 25, 1989 An Honourable Member: Do not even mention " sectio n," d o not men tion it. " A par t of the Act says Mr. Edwards: I will not m ent ion it. A part of the Act on page 2 of the Act says that in effect the Lieutenant Governor -in-Coun cil may, on the advic e of the Minister of Finance, make trans fer s out of the fund, in this case $200 million , and in this case of course , some of those funds were spent righ t off the bat. In any event, Mr. Speaker, the key is that this is a Cab inet fun d whic h is set aside for the Cabinet to use .

They d o not need the approval of the House to spend th is money , and this money has a very broad discr etionary power by which it can be spent and rests solely in the hands in fact of the Minister of Finance, and on his advice, the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council is obliged to pay the money out. Mr. Speaker , as I have said , I t hink tha t the Government in this case did manufacture a deficit to get gradated deficits over a period of time because it looks better. The fact is, it is not the truth. It is tricky bookkeep ing to show that gradation of lowering defic its at least in these first two years .

Revenues which have come in from what was called the single largest tax grab in the history of this province have added to our posit ion fiscally, as well as high prices of certain minerals which have brought in revenues from the mineral tax , as well as some unusually high transfer payments from Ottawa which I gather are quickly coming to a close . Those attributes which have come to this Government through no doing of their own have led this Government to the enviable position of having a lot of cash . What did they do with it?

They hid it, they buried it, they attempted to defraud the people of this province by tri cky bookkeeping and showing that they somehow had to s et up this fund for the Cabinet to spend at their own discretion , any time they pleased . This Government has been known to criticize at length the Jobs Fund, which was in effect the New Democrat ic Party 's form of the same idea. Call it what you will, the more lily-white the name , the better , but the fact is the fund is the same thing.

It is a fund which can be used by the Government to prop up its own support in the community without the review at the time of expenditure by this House. I think that is, as I have said, in effect tricky bookkeeping and an attempt to fool the people of this province but they are not fooled . *

(1510) Mr. Speaker , the Member for Churchill (Mr. Cowan) yells from the loge, when am I getting to him , to his Party, I assume he means by the word " us" . I will be getting to them in due course and perhaps he would like to stay for that part of my speech , I assure him it will be enlightening . Mr. Speaker , I want to go on to say that on the two areas with which I am most acquainted with in this Government, and I act as critic for the Departments of Labour and Justice, I think that it is relevant to this Bill to talk about the administration in those departments.

We can see in those departments expenditures of funds which add to the principles behind this Bill. The principles being that more and more monies are going to be spent on administration and to put aside for the executive use of the Government , and less and less funds are actually going to get to the people which is where the money came from in the first place. We all know what a burden that is, that the people in this province labour under in terms of their tax burden . Mr.

Speaker, specifically then, turning to some of the budget Estimates which came out in the Department of Labour under the heading of General Administration , Executive Support went up 13.6 percent. Other Expenditures did not go up at all, and we see again that throughout the Department of Labour the actual fund s that end up in the people's hands is minimal.

Of course, as I have referenced and in fact grieved on in the House many times , t he Labour Adjustment Branch is of particular concern to me, given the free trade era which we have entered and which has wrought its course in this province already since this Government took office and started seeing the handiwork of their federal counterparts. There is no quest ion that we have now entered a free trade era which i s g oing to move through th is province like an incipient hur ricane .

It is going to cut a swath across this province, I fear, which is going to affect almost every industry and almo st every worker in this province. Mr. Speaker , the total increase for the coming year in labour adjustment is $60,600 .00. That is somewhere less than 10 cents per Manitoba worker, given the massive layoffs we have suffered already in the tenure of this Government, given the prediction of the de Grandp re Commission which spoke from a federal position.

It was set up by the federal Government , the proponents of free trade , and that comm ission itsel f said that the provinces and the federal Government had to get serious about labour adjustment because they said even if there ends up being more jobs in Canada , there is definitely going to be upheaval in the labour market of an unprecedented scale in this country .

We have yet to see this province come anywhere near taking labour adjustment seriously, and that is despite the warnings of the de Grandpre Commission , that is desp ite the obvious downturn in our economy here in terms of the labour sector and the massive upheaval which our workers in this province have faced and are going to continue to face, I fear. In the area of Workplace Safety and Health referenced earlier , in fact today by me and many times prior to that with the Minister for Labour (Mr. Hammond) , the Workplace Safety and Health division again has faced , in effect, the neglect of this Governme nt.

Let me correct that-more than neglect-this Government saw fit a few months ago to reduce standards in workplace health and safety, an absolutely bizarre thing to do, given what the rest of the world is doing , expanding the number of chemicals that we know are hazardous in the workplace and expanding and increasing the surveillance and the enforcement of Workplace Safety and Health standards . This Government saw fit to reduce standards . Now they backed down on that , thank goodness, Mr. Speaker , however we -(interjection)- 2222

Wednesday, October 25, 1989 Well, the Member for Churchill (Mr. Cowan) says who brought that issue forward and why did they back down? In fact , I was very pleased to bring that issue forward along with the Leader of the third Party. We started it on the same day in this House and we continued harping on the Minister. She eventually saw fit to accep t the words of her Premier (Mr. Filmon) and decided to bring back what was the obvious correct position which was that we should be looking at getting rid of any detectable dangerous levels of chemicals in the workplace. Mr.

Speaker, given that this Government in the area of labour seems to be not only not doing anything to provide for future needs but withdrawing what had been achieved in the past , I find it passing strange that they can find $200 million to put in a slush fund . In the area of justice , and I am not going to go through all of the many areas in which I see problems - An Honourable Member: Oh, please do. Mr. Edwards: The Minister for Northern and Native Affairs (Mr. Downey) is asking me to go through them .

In cons ideration of other Members who may wish to speak on this Bill , I will work to curtail my remarks , and I refer the Minister for Northern and Native Affairs to Hansard , as most of my comments have indeed been put on the record previously, although there will be more which will no doubt hit the record in the future. Let me touch specifically on an issue which I raised last week which I find very important, and that is the issue of crime prevention . I am not asking for large expenditures in this area . What I asked for was the setting up of a Crime Prevention Council.

That , in my estimation , would cost roughly what the Victim's Assistance Comm ittee costs this province which is somewhere in the neighbourhood of $50,000 .00. I attende d a conference two weekends ago because the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mccrae) had been invited and decide d he did not want to go and that he did not have time to go. More than that, Mr. Speaker , he not only decided he did not have the money to go, or the time to go, he decided he did not want to send an alternate. This was very strange given that this was a conference by invitation only, there was no charge .

The only thing he had to do was get there and that would have cost him somewhere between $300 and $400 .00. I will leave that to the Members here to figure out how many hours of interest that is on the slush fund. The fact is this Minister decided it was not worth his time to attend a conference of legislators from around the world discussing the very important issue of crime prevention, an issue which he had said for many, many months was a priority with him . The fact is when given the chance, he showed that it is not a priority .

It is not worth half a day on a Friday to go down to Montreal and spend 24 hours there, primarily over a weekend in which the House was not sitting, to discuss this matter with people from around the world . It was an unprecedented opportunity , and I was very pleased to have been given the opportunity to go by the organizers in his stead so that Manitoba would be represented . In any event, Mr. Speake r, last week I was able to bring forward a pos ition on this issue . It came from my own research and th inking in this area, as well as what I had learned at that conferen ce.

I might add that I have gained the suppo rt of experts in the are a in this province for the establ ishment of a Crime Prevention Council and the showi ng of leadersh ip by the provincial Governmen t in the area of crime prevention . The beauty of crime prevention , Mr. Speaker , is that the vast majority of the good work done in crim e prevention is volunteer work . It does not cost a cent.

What happens is individual crime prevention councils throughout this province, some of which have already been established but many more need to be established , are set up with represe ntatives from the police and the courts and housing experts and educat ional experts and experts from the social welfare system , representing as much as possible the people in the community who have their finger on the pulse of crime and its causes . That allows that council to show leadership in that community and do things which oftent imes do not cost a cent but have an enormous impact on the reduction of crime .

The beauty of crime prevention as well as being largely done by volunteers , and let me say there are many volunteers out there who are looking to get involved in crime preven tion and want to enhance and preserve the residen tial nature of their communities and the safety of their communities , the other significant attribute of crime prevention is that there is no victim . If you can stop a c rime , you do not have a victi m. You also do not spen d t he money. It is an enormous sum of money to put peop le through the trial system and through our correct ion system which costs us all a lot of money .

With the rec idivism rate we know that they come back oftentimes worse than they went in. Society loses , loses , loses , all the way down the line. So I can tell you an investment in crime prevention of the minor amoun t suggested by me would be well worth the time of this Government. *

(1520) The Fiscal Stabilizat ion Fund , Mr. Speaker , is $200 mill ion w hich has been set aside to feed the egos of the Members opposite as they sit around their Cabinet table and decide how they are going to dish out the bucks . I hear from the Leader of the third Party (Mr. Doer) "Keynesian econom ics." Well, when you are paying an interest rate that is highe r than the one you are investing at , you call it what you like, I call it stupid .

If you are going to put money in and make less than you would if you paid down your debt , I mean , even if you do not spend it, you would have paid down your debt and you would be farther ahead. I mean , it is like you and I having a VISA account and winning some money. What do we do with it? Do we put it in a separate account so we can spend it? Or do we pay down the VISA account which has a higher interest rate? Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the third Party (Mr. Doer) is chirping from his seat, he can hardly talk.

He was the Member of the Government that set up a Jobs Fund which went around this province building the egos of the Members of his Government and putting money 2223

Wednesday, October 25, 1989 into constituencies to buy votes. The use of that 11,md was absolutely disgraceful in that it set up people to have very limited job experience for a very few weeks to push them off to the federal Government to the Unemploy ment Insurance Program . Mr. Speaker, that is clear and every Manitoban knows what that fund was all about. It did nothi ng for full time employment of a long-term nature in this province , and when I hear Members of the third Party standing up and haranguing and drivelling on- Mr. Speaker: Order, please . The Honourable Member for Churchill . Mr.

Jay Cowan (Churchill): Mr. Speaker , I wonder if the Member would submit to a question . Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speake r, I would be happy to answer a question at the end of my remarks- Mr. Speaker: If there is time remaining. Mr. Edwards: -on the understanding that it does not cut into my 40 minute time. Mr. Speaker: That is right . Mr. Edwards: Thank you , Mr. Speaker. Also, I may be making some more comments which the Member for Churchill (Mr. Cowan) may wish to ask about so I want to make sure that he gets all the questions together before he asks them. I do not want to have him asking a few questions at once .

I am sure what I have to say further in my speech he will also perhaps want to ask some questions about. Mr. Speaker, I want to go back to the "but" that was heard around the province issued by the third Party speaking on this Bill.

They saw fit to stand up, as they have on succes sive budgets and say, well , the Government is betraying the people of this province , they are not spending money where they should, they are fiscally irresponsible, their principles are all wrong , they are deserting the North, they are deserting the working parents in this province, they are doing everything that we do not want to happen and we did not do, they say. Again and again and again comes the crunch for the third Party. After 39 and a half minutes of speaking we hear the famous " but " it is not that bad , we will prop them up again. Mr.

Speaker, that indeed has been heard around the province , and I suggest to the third Party that they learn their principles and stick to them because the fact is that they have successively , in the tenure of this Government , whored their principles in order to not face the voters. They have desperately attempted to stay out of the polling stations in this province , and I suggest that the people of this province will remember that and know what this third Party is all about. They are about propping up a Tory Government until they think they can do a little better in the polls . That is what they are about. Mr.

Speaker, the Leader of the third Party says we are dropping too quickly . Well, I can tell you we are , ·not dropping anywhere near as quickly as he is. Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the third Party is a little hurt , he has not caught on- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh ! Mr. Speaker: Order . The Honourable Member for St. James has the floor . Mr. Edwards: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. May I a_sk how much time I have remaining? Mr. Speaker: Eighteen minutes. Mr. Edwards: Thank you , Mr. Speaker. I believe I will have time for some ques tion s.

I simpl y want to go on, and it is a very short Bill, I feel it is of grave importance for this province and this Government because I think it is going to hang them. I think that this Bill. in its very few pages is an absolute indication of what this Government is all about. They are no better than the last Government and in fact this marriage which is a marriage of convenience is based on the same principles, the principles of fiscal irresponsibility and bad management. Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the third Party chirps from his seat about fiscal responsibilit y. He can hardly call himself Mr.

Fiscal Responsibility . He is the Member of the Party that squandered millions on the sands in Saudi Arabia that all of a sudden, oh, there was a major deficit at the Workers Compensation Board, MPIC is out of control. This Member for Concordia (Mr. Doer) was a Cabinet Minister in a Government that had the unenviable distinction of being probably the worst financial managers, next to Sterling Lyon, this province has ever had. In order to make up for their incompetence they had to, in the correct words of the now Premie r, mastermind the largest tax grab this province has ever seen. Mr.

Speaker, I do want to leave time to respond to my friends in the third Party, and I will certainly respo nd to the question which the Member for Churchill (Mr. Cowan) I am sure is working on right now. Let me reiterate that It is a great pleasure for me to stand in opposition to this Bill. I will look forward to reading its contents hopefully to the people of this province in a forthcoming election . I hope that election is forthcoming, given that the principles of the New Democratic Party I think bind them to vote against this Bill, and I look forward to their turning back on a mistake.

I think they will see that it was an error, and I think that it is necessary for their survival in this province and for the standing to the principles which they have always espoused that they look hard at this Bill and see it for what it is, and in fact what they have called it which is very much a slush fund . Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker : Order , please . There was leave here. The Honourable Member for Churchill. Mr. Cowan: Yes, I wonder if the Member would now submit to the question he indicated he would . (Agreed) I enjoyed listening to the Honourable Member for St. James (Mr. Edwards), Mr.

Speaker , because it is so 2224

Wednesday, October 25, 1989 difficult to determine what Liberal policy in this province actually is, and the Member for St. James gives us insights and clues by his faux pas and innuendoes during his speech . I would just like to clarify one thing that I heard him say today. I would ask him directly if he is opposed to the Jobs Fund and the work that it did throughout the Province of Manitoba during the time that the New Democratic Party was administering that fund to the benefit of many northern, rural and suburban and urban communities? Mr. Edwards: Mr.

Speaker, I am certainly not opposed to any fund which creates long-term, full-time jobs in this province. What I am opposed to is a fund which in many cases was used to put people onto the federal payroll because all it ever did was give people short term employment. It did not train them for future full time employment, it gave them short-term employment which was transitory and which put them onto the federal coffe rs, and that is what this past Government called a Jobs Fund.

The fact is it did not put people full time to work in this province because, as we all know , it is necessary to have a much more cohesive, much more sophisticated strategy, to jobs in this province, to full time jobs in this province, for the long term for Manitoba workers . The Government today is doing nothing to combat the tragedy which has been reaped on this province and this country by their federal counterparts in free trade . We are seeing the start of that now, I could teil you we have just seen the start, it is the tip of the iceberg. Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr.

Speaker: Order. Order, please. The Honourable Member for Churchill. Mr. Cowan: Mr. Speaker , I would ask if there is still time for another question? Mr. Speaker : The Honourable Member still has time . The Honourable Member for Churchill. Mr. Cowan: It might be myself in not understanding fully what the Member said or it might be the fact that he did not quite concisely articulate the answer. But I would ask him, is he opposed to the Jobs Fund as it was constructed and implemented by New Democratic Party administration?

He had all sorts of criticism of it, but he did not say whether he would have supported it or opposed had he had the opportunity to do so. Mr. Edwards: I support the idea of a Jobs Fund . I do not support the fact that in the case of this Jobs Fund, put up by this Government, there were many, many people who were not served by that Jobs Fund and who were pushed onto the federal coffers . Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker : Is the House ready for the question? The questio n before the House is second reading of Bill No. 27-the Honourable Member for Inkster. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr.

Speaker, I understand that there was leave given to leave it standing in the name of the Member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock). •

(1530) Mr. Speaker: Thank you . As previously agreed, this matter will remain standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Osborne . BILL NO. 32-THE CITY OF WINNIPEG AMENDMENT ACT Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ducharme) , Bill No. 32, The City of Winnipeg Amendment Act ; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la Ville de Winnipeg, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Concordia (Mr. Doer), is there leave that this matter may stand in the name of the Honourable Member for Concordia? Leave? (Agreed) BILL NO. 31-THE LABOUR RELATIONS AMENDMENT ACT Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Labour (Mrs. Hammond) Order, order. On the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Labour (Mrs. Hammond) , Bill No. 31, The Labour Relations Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les relations du travail, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia-Leis). Stand. Is there leave that this matter remain standing? (Agreed) BILL NO. 42-THE RESIDENTIAL TENANCIES ACT Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Housing (Mr. Ducharme) , Bill No. 42, The Residential Tenancies Act;

Loi sur la location a usage d'habitation, standing in the Honourable Member for Churchill (Mr. Cowan). The Honourable Member for Churchill. Mr. Jay Cowan (Churchill): Mr. Speaker , The Residentia l Tenancies Act or Bill No. 42 is probably one of the most important pieces of legislation to come before us th is Session . I am not saying that it is the most important, but it certainly ranks among the more prominent pieces of legislation that the Government has indicated it will be bringing forward during this legislative Session .

That significance is intensified by the fact th at Bill No. 42 will touch so many Manitobans with respect to one of their most primary and basic needs, the need for shelter. We all require housing of one sort or another . We all expect that housing to be safe, healthy, affordable and secure. Those expectations are not unreasonable, and in most instances they are fulfilled or even exceeded by the accommodations which we find for ourselves. There are instances, Mr. Speaker, where that is not the case . There are circumstances where the secure and affordable shelter we all seek and we all deserve , 2225

Wednesday, October 25, 1989 is not possible for one reason or another . That situation is most likely to arise with regard to shelter that is rented rather than that which is owned . That is why it is so important that we have legislation, that we have policy, and that we have comprehensive programs to pro tect renters and landlords in certain instances where they requi re such pro tect ion from their Government . Those thr ee protected pillars, legislation, policy and program are the foundation of any well thought-out and soundly-structured go.vernmental activities in this area.

Governm ental actions must reflect and respond to the way in which our rental housing marke t is structured and operated within the context of those three prote cted pillars . In order to do so they mus t ack nowledge certain basic premises and accomplish cert ain basic objectives. Firstly, Government policy must identify bas ic, affordable, safe and healthy housing as a universal right for all Manitobans. Each and every one of us is entitled to secure shelter no matter what our social or what our economic circ umstances might be at any given time.

Each and every Manitoban deserves affordable and adequate housing no matter where they may live in this province, Mr. Speaker . If we accept that the first princip le is universal accessibility to such housing, then at the same time, we as legislators and the Government as a collective body, must accept the responsibility that flows from that premise. That responsibility is to provide such housing through public housing programs where it is needed and to set the framework and the guidelines for the provision of private-sector housing where that approach is more suitable or more prevalent.

So that is the first premise which must guide us in reviewing this particular legislation . There is another premise or supposition and that is that not all things are necessa rily equal in the realm of landlord and tenant relati onships . As a matter of fact, in the absence of legislati on it is most likely, I would say it is inevitab le, that there would be very little equality between the two at all. If there was no legislation as there has been in our history , i t would be the landlords that would indeed be the lords, and it would be the tenants who would be their subjects .

That is a real ity in which legislation has been developed and will be continued to be developed over time . That supposition is not idle speculation on my part , but I believe it is a rather accurate reflection of how things once were structured.

That sort of feudal relationship, between a landlord and a tenant, continued until there was a point in time in our history when Government stepped in to redefine the traditional relationship and to do so by developing social policy and legislation that undercut and undermined the purely economic relationship that put such immense power in the hands of those who own the land and those who rented the buildings upon it to their tenants. Early housing legislation sought only to protect tenants from abuse by some unscrupulous landlords.

I say " some" quite purposely , because it is only some who are unscrupulous and the vast majority of landlords are in fact not unscrupulous in their affairs with their tenants at all. The fact is that there was abuse , and the early legislation in seeking to only protect tenants from abuse was more reactive thaA pro-active. It did not really provide actual power to the tenants , but rather it only put some reins or dampened somewhat the power that landlords could exercise through their massive economic clout and their ownership of the land and the buildings.

That initial policy in legislation, while it was protective it was not pr.o-active , and that was its failing . What it did do , which I believ,e has led successively to success over time , is that it set the stage for a greater sharing of power to be incorporated into policies and programs as they were developed . (Mr. Mark Minenko , Acting Speaker, in the Chair) If we accept this premise , then this legislati on follows an evolutionary path .

For that reason I believe it should affect the traditional relationship between landlords and tenants by giving more power to the tenants at the expense of the landlords and giving that power to them with a purpose in mind , and that purpose be to improve their own living conditions . If that is the case , by definition, landlords must lose some of their historical and arbitrary power over their tenants . That has to be built into any legislation that is indeed evolutionary and continues on traditions that have been incorpor ated in many housing Bills that preceded the one before us today.

The third reality that should shape housing legislation is that there are both good and bad landl ords , and it has to be said there are both good and bad tenants. To take it a step further , it would probably be fair to say that there are more good landlords and tenants than ther e are bad landlords and tenants . The fact that the good outnumber the bad provides only statistical solace. It does nothing to resolve specific problems nor correct individual injustices where they occur.

For the most part, legislation therefore need not concern itself with the landlord and tenant relationship between the good landlord and the good tenant, other than to define general obligations and responsibilit ies so that they bo th know and understand what to legitimately expect each from the other. Now that is one purpose of legislation when you are dealing with good landlords and good tenants . At the same time there are some bad landlords and there are some bad tenants.

Legislation must go a step further and protect each from the other given that our social structure, the economic environment and the philosophical framework within which we live means that landlords are generally more powerful than their tenants. The law must afford more protection to tenants than landlords . In other words, if it does seek to correct an injustice , equalize power or to deal with an imbalance , then it must by definition be biased towards the tenants more than the landlords, because that is where the least power occurs in the natural state.

At the very least it must seek to prevent any abuse that 1T1ight flow from that historical imbalance, and I would go a step further . I would suggest that to be truly · effective, it must seek to correct that imbalance through empowerment and through education, both activities being required. 2226

Wednesday, October 25, 1989 *

(1540) Finally, in determining whether or not this legislation is good or bad legislation , consideration must be given as to whether or not it will work. Firstly, it must be written so that it will stand the test of the courts, who will ultimately interpret it in the context of existing legislation and legal traditions . It must be drafted so that it can be easily understood by those who are most affected by it.

It must be written so that it can be easily administered by those in the bureaucracy who must put the language to work at the street level , and that is not just those in the direct Government bureaucracy but those in Legal Aid, those working for landlords in their capacity as agents in those working for tenants in their cap acity.

So it must be well-crafted , but it also must be well communicated to both landlords and tenants who can only effectively abide by it and profit by it and use it to its maximum effect if they are fully aware of the legislation and they understand what it purports to do on their behalf and t

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-2-57
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 2nd hansardpdf 57.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	7403329c806387936938be254b6e8c3cffa8dc7b

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