PRELDIINARY UNEDITED TRA.i.'lSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASS~~LY, FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. WEDNESDAY, APRIL 20, 1977

April 20, 1977 Tape No. 1716 NM - 1 The House met at 3:00 P.M. ~r. Speaker in the Chair. ~~-· SP~~R: Order, please! STAID1ENTS BY MD1ITERS : MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Tourism. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I wish to make the following statement in connection with the big game licencing for 1977 . concerning season dates and moose, caribou quotas. This year 11,000 moose licences will he available to resident hunters. !his is an increase of 1,417 over 1976.

Caribou licences also show an increase of 185 over the 1976 figure with 1,450 licences available for 1977. ~fuile the numbe~}Of big game licences has increased for the resident hunters in Newfoundland, non-resident hunters will find a decline in the number of licences available to them. There will be a decrease of 105 moose licences and 35 caribou licences from the 1976 licence allocation.

Since the introduction of a licence quota on big - - game in 1973 the sale of licences to non-resident hunters h~s steadily declined today to the point where the Province is currently issuing only twenty-five per cent of the number issued prior to the 1973 season, 400 versus 1,800.; Non~resident hunting is restricted to the inaccessible hunting areas which are not popular with resident hunters. - The season ~ates are approximately the same as 1976. The earliest opening date for moose on the West Coast, coa_st, ·-central- Ne""Wfo~ndl~nd ~ southern Coastal areas and Northern Peninsula is September 17th.

The Avalon Peninsula and Coastal hunting areas along ~Totre Dame Bay area open~ on. October 29th. The caribou hunting season begins on September lOth. for all areas except the Northern Peninsula · which opens September 12th. three of the four new carJ.bounera-s- ·opened in 1975 will

April 20, 1977 !ape ~To. 1716 NM- 2 ~. HICKEY: again ha<ve an open season this year. Grey Island and Fogo Is,land will open September 3rd. and clos.e on September 15th. Merasheen Island will open from s·etperaber lOth. to September 24th. Applications f()r these three areas- Grey Island, Fogo Island and Merasheen Island-ate restricted to residents of the immediate area of the herds. ~--· _ . __ ·--.

April 20, 1977 Tape 1717 IB-1 }m,. FI CKEY: Any adjustment in season dates have been made as a result of co'l!!ments from the 1976 moose licensing returns • The special bow hunting areas for moose hunters have been increased to nine. Three areas·on the West coast will be open to hunters using bow and arrows only~- MF.. Sl-f.M.L\.YOOD: Definitely bow and arrows? ~-· HICKEY: - __ yes - frgm September 17 to September 30 the areas a~e Trout River, Corner Brook and South 3rook.

The F.astern portion of the Island will have the following areas open from October 13 to October 28; T~in Lakes, Lewisporte, Bonavista North, Placentia, Salmonier and the Southern Shore. ~lo special license is issued for the bow season. The only requirements-being hunters are to use bow and arrow only and are not permitted to carry fi;~arms. However, during the regular season hunters may use either firearms or bow and anow. ~-. 51-fJU.l. WOOD : . Suppose a man ~nds an ani~al with a bow and arrcl-T, he is not allol.red to ca·rry a gun and the poor animal just suffers and dies. MR.

DOODY:· - It--is· dangerous to use· a bow if he is teo close anyway. YP.. HICKEY: ~o, he is to use another bow and kill it. ~-. !-'!OP.GA.~ : An arrow. I hone. Has the minister ever tried that? AN RON. ~EF: It is just as well to kill it with a bow,'Tom'. }fR. HICKEY: The minister· is not too good with the bow. Everyc;me else is pretty ~cod at him.

Applications for big game licenses will be available in early ~ay through all post offices, wildlife offices and a number of government offices to be announced at a later date. fts a~nounced e~~lier, applications •N"i.ll be delivered in person to <:lesi~ated govern!T'.ent offices and government officials. A co~lete list of locations of these offices, hours of operation, etc. will be publicized in tiewspap _f!!-rs:_ throughout the Province well in advance of the period for acceptin~ applications. ~. -

April 20, 1977 Tape 1717 IB-2 PF.ES'ENTING P-EPOP.TS BY ST.~J.IDING .<\!'ID SPECIAL CO~'ITEES: ~-"P.. SPE.AKEP: The hon. ~inister of Social Services. MP.. BP.ETT: Yr. Speaker, I would like to table the Child Welfare Regulations of 1976, the Day Care and Romema~er Service Regulations of 1976, and the Day Care and Homemaker Ser.rices ~~ended ~.egulations of 197.6. O'PAL QUESTIONS: ~-. SPE.AKEP : The hon. Leader of the Opposition. ~-· P.OB~S: ~r. Speaker, I am a-.:vfully glad Your Rcinour heard my voice raised as it was. 1-fr.

Speaker, my qu~stion, in the absence of the Pre~ier ano in the absence of the Minister of Pecreation and Rehabilitation,is addressed to the acting minister. I understand the ~inister of Tourism is the acting minister of that department. It grows out of the Premier's statement to the Rouse yesterday, ~r. Speaker, his }!inisterial Statement,and out of certain statements ~Y"hich have been ~3de since then including statements ~de by ~r. ~alcol~ Smeaton ~o is the - I think his correct title is Business Manager with the Nurses ~nion as opposed to the AP~.

The minister,! have no doubt has heard the statement, is aware of it. Could the minister tell us please, ~r. Speaker, when his officials, the Recreation Department officials, P.ehabilitation J"'lepart,._erit officials, first became aware of the APNN complaints or the fact that the APNN had raised'these serious matters? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. ~inister of Tourism. ~-·HI~: ¥r. Speaker, the officials,meaning the deputy minister and the director of homes for- special care of the Department of R and R,were aware of the brief for some three weeks prior to last week.

I think it was ~pprox±mately three and a half to four weeks ago that that was submitted. They were a~~re of so~ concerns of some nurses and also that ~embers of the executive of the Nursing Association for some time - I cannot put a figure on the length ----of time - aware of concerns, aware of items which had been discussed of a general nature and in general terms but were

April 20, 1977 Tape No. 1718 ~- 1 MR. RICKEY: not aware of any specific document by way of evidence to substantiate any of the concerns · it expressed. MR. SPEA..Ta:R: A supplementary. ~. ROBERTS: I thank the minister. I understand that he said the ~ep~~-m~is_te~ has for a month been aware of 'some concerns;! th~k was the minister's phrase, but that these were not necessarily the concerns expressed in the memorandum from the AR}TN. Is that a correct

interpretation? I want to be . sure "I understood the minister correctly • rf that is correct I will go on with. the supplementary. ~. RICKEY: No, Mr. Speaker, I think what I said was that the officials, meaning the deputy and the Director of Homes, were aware of the items as listed in the memorandum tor some- approximately three weeks, because it was received approximately three weeks ago, were unaware of any evidence, documented evidence, . -- - - - - letters si~ed. giving names, etc. _, e_tc. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.. ROBERTS : I thank the minister for that.

Let me then go at it a different way because I do not ~vant to get into a debate. I am not allowed to,in fact. I do not want to get into an argument over semantics. The Deputy !'f.i.nister met on ~Tovember 15th. with a grou'!' including representatives of the nurses and including,! am told, the gentleman from Mount Scio (Dr. \-11nsor), who is at - - -- -~ - present away fro~ Newfoundland on public business, What that !lleeting brought to the attention of the minister? \vere the matters discussed there brought to the attention of "the minister~ '!R. SPEA.:.T{ER: Tbe hon. ~tinister of Tourism. XR. RICKEY: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I w~ made aware of that meeting. to which the Leader of the Opposition refers. A..'i RON. ~ER: The minister or the actirg minister. MR. ROBERTS: With the· minister, but the Acting ~inister is the gentleman-

April 20, 1977 Tape No, 1718 ~- 2 MR. HICKEY: I think it is fair to say that the minister met with those people at that particular time. ~1R. ROBERTS: In November? ~. HICKEY: I believe it was November. I am not sure of dates, Mr. Speaker, I am sure the Leader of the Opposition can ap!>reciate - MR.. ROBERTS : I understood there was a meeting in ~arch with the minister. i-i'ell it could have been. I am not sure about the ~ovember one.

I do know that my cclleague the minister, and the deputy minister, met with those people and a couple of nurses, t.,.vo or three, I do not know how many, Items were discussed at that meeting, concerns of one kind and another, but again no documented evidence. MR. ROBERTS: ~r. Speaker, a further supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the original questioner. ~. ROBERTS: The minister tells us that his colleague, the minister, the gentleman from Gander"(Mr. H. Collins) met in~ TJe know there was a meeting in March~ I understand there was one in December as well, that is the one of which ~~.

Smeaton spoke overnight. What I do not understand is what action was taken following these meetings. I know that eventually a memorandum dated ~rch 24th. was submitted by the ARNN and apparently nothing was done on that:But what action did the minister take . --after meetings were held by his deputy minister and by himself about the situation at Exon House? ~. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Tourism. ~m. RICKEY: ~.I. Speaker, there has been a number of improvements and action was taken.

I cannot be specific in terms of the number of items,and certainly with a little time one could pin down and get the areas of concern as expressed by those people and the ·ones ·that we have · been able to sort out or rectify r.o date, But I can assure the hon. Leader of the Oppostion that

April 20, 1977 Tape No. 1718 NM- 3 MR. HICKEY: a number of areas were corrected, a number of actions were taken,and it is in this context that I meant when I said the items were of administrative nature or concern with regards to shifts- MR. ROBERTS: It did not deal with abuses ,._is _that_. it? MR.. HICKEY: -wh~n _nurses would be on duty and so on and so fotth. MR.. NOLA!~ : A supplementary. MR. ROBERTS: H~ld on 'John'. Did the minister say they did not deal with abuses? HR. HICKEY: ~lo, o.o, ~r. Speaker, I did not say that: There t.ras discussion but no concrete evidence to support it. There were concerns expressed .. scme of those concerns led into discussion of schedules,

April 20, 1977 Tape 1719 IB-1 ~. HICY.EY: who is 'on ruty, etc. and as I said a number of those areas have been correcterl, were corrected as a result of those meetings and as a result of the representations. ~,fP. ROBEP.TS: -~tr. Speaker, if I ~ay be allowed a further supplementary. ~-· SPEA..l<EP.: A further supple~ntary. ~. ROBEP.TS : Because the matters gets murkier and more complicated the more we get into it.

Hhat I do not understand-and perhaps the minister could help us - is how the ~eetin~s and the action ~mich resulted - and I appreciate the l!'.inister 's frankness and being so fort~Eom~~ - there ~'ere meetings involving the minister and the deputy minister and action did result; how the minister squares that with the statement the Premier made yesterday in which he said,and I quote, ,,~at is upsetting to government is that these complaints were never brought to ministerial attention"? ~-· SPEAKEP: The hon. ~inister of Touri~. MP .• HICKEY: The complaints, ~.fr.

Speaker-, that the Premier referred to were specific complaints ,of abuse · child abuse, kicking a child, ·concerns about the programme, training programme verus the functioning - . of the nursing people, the nursing staff J __ those were the things that I ~-,as referring to. ~.,That the Premier ~'as !'eferrin~ to yesterday when he talked about this information not getting to the ministerial level - and I can say for that matter e•1en to the deputy minister level-and which prompted the Premier yesterdav to ask for and look for an investigation Within the ~epartment ~1as the fact that the documented evidence, the le-tters·, supporting sor.oe of the things as contained in that brief did not reach the ministerial level or the deputy minis_ter level and as a result of that this is ~.;hat the Premier was referr.ing to.

A supple!!'et".tary, ~'r. Speaker. A supplementary. The hen. member for Conception Bay - --South. ~. NOLAN: In his statement yesteraay the hen. the Premier - this auestion is to the ~inister of 'l'ouriS'tll or · act-ing Hinister at the moment of

April 20, 19 77 Tape 1719 IB-2 YR. NOL.c\N: Rehabilitation - the Premier mentioned that he was goin~ to bring in certain ~ighly qualified people and so on to take a look at the Exon Rouse and I would assume make recommendations and so on. But on the basis of the information,rightly 'or wrongly, that has now been made available through the press and so on, does the mini'ster not think that we need an indepth hands-length investigation right now and that the rep~rt of that should be made public to clear this up? !-P.. SPEAKEP: The hon. Yini~ter o~ Tourism. MP .• RICKEY: ~r.

Speaker, I concur fully and totally with t..rhat the hen. the Pre1r..ier announced yesterday because,as I have said to the media on a couple of occasions,! have been associated tY.Lth Exon House and I do have an appreciation for the problems there and the nature of some of those problems and how some of the issues· can be blo~ out of proportion. There is and there will be an in-house investigation In-house is no good. ¥R. RICKEY: ~-Tell, 'l":r. Speaker, it may not satisfy the hon. gentleman- MP .• NOLAN: That is right, it does not. lf'F .• RICKEY: but the fact remains, }!r.

Speaker, that tve are satisfied that the proper and appropriate action is being taken by government with regards to this issue and the greatest thing to come from it is a full assessment of the training programme and all that goes wi~h it. }!R • SPF.A.KE'P.: The hon. member for LaPoile. ¥r. Speaker, I would like to ~.irect a auestion to the ~inister of Fisheries, Sir.

In view of the fact that the lobster season opened in certain parts of :~ewfoundland today,and '"'e are just about into the salmon season, could the ~inister give the House so~e idea of what returns the lobster fishermen are going to get for their labour and the salmon fishermen. Has the Advisory Board arrived at any recommendations to the minister or to the fishermen?

April 20, 19i7 Tape 1719 IB-3 ~T-. SPEA..KE::r.'.: The hon. ~~iniste't' of Fisheries. ---------------- ~-. W. CAP..TEP.: ~~r. Speaker, no,I do not have any specific information as to w--hat lobster fishermen and salmon fishermen T-rill be getting for their catches. But certainly I understand that the union is now negotiating with lobster buyers with a view to having a much better price paid for lobster this year than in previous years. I think the lobster fishermen have registered complaints,and rightly so,that the amount they are getting per pound is far less than that paid ~ova Scotian fishe~en.

And certainly I think the trade can and should be compelled to pa~mor.e than is presently being paid. ~-· NE.AP,Y: A supplementary question. ~. SPE..A.KEP..: A s~pplementary. ~"P .• NEAPY: Would the minister tell the House what role the Fishery Advisory Boar~ is playing in all this? Rave they done any research on the price of lobsters, salmon and cod because we are almost into the cod fishery on the East Coast? Rave they done any research on the prices of fish? The hon. Minister of Fisheries.

April 20, 1977 Tape No. 1720 NM- 1 ~. w. CA..J:t'!'ER : ~r. Speaker, the Advisory Board is pretty well an ongoing situation. They have their intelligence people in the market place, and it is pretty well an ongoing situation where almost on a daily basis they are advised of the market price for different types of fish especially in the American market.

Certainly the Advisory Board would be very concerned about the price of salmon and lobster and indeed codfish, and I am sure that if and when 'the time ~ames they will be very anxious to lend their support and help to the union and indeed anyone else, including the trade itself,in helping to establish a· firm price for these two species. ~. NEARY: A supplementary, ~r. Speaker. r-c:R • SPE.AKE!t : A supplementary. MR.

NEARY: Would the minister indicate to the House whether or not the goyernmerit~tr.e minister or his department endorses - - . the efforts of the lobster fishermen to get $2 a pound for the±r lobsters thls.yearf Is 'this supported by the minister or by the government? The han. Minister of Fisheries. :ffi. W. CARTER : ~fr.

Speaker, not only do we support the proposition that lobster fishermen should ge~ more 9 we are seriously giving some thought to some kin4 of an arrangement whereby lobsters can be held over' because apparently what happens is that ~ ... . --·- ----- -· - - ---- .. .... 'Nova Scotia lobstermen - -~ think ge; as high as $3 a pound, but then when the Newfoundland lobster comes on the markets then that, according to the Nova Scotians, that will have the effect-of depressing the prices in the market place.

So we are seriously looking at the possibility of oroviding storage areas, and this by the way, this suggestion came to light in a meeting we held in Port Saunders some months ago, was brought up by the lobster fishermen there and,I might add,supported by the union - MR. S}f.ALU100D: Reserving them high? MR. W. CARTER: -·yes= setting up areas, maybe in Placentia Bay; it

April 20, 1977 Tape No. 1720 ~r.-1 - 2 ~. T.i. CA..~TER: cannot be done on the St. Barbe Coast. Apparently there is three or four inches of fresh water on'the water in that area and this makes it pretty - ~. ~!ALLWOOD: Not the whole Coast. XR. W. CARTER: No, but in the areas where lobster would norma~~y be stored. And this nuU'es it impossible for lobsters to be stored in that area alive. There is a layer of fresh water. I think my colleague was at the meeting ~hen this came out. I think he has ~robably had MR. MAYNARD: In every bay and cove. MR. W. CARTER: In every bay and cove on the Coast.

MR. ~~WOOD: What is the difference in those bay and coves and bays and coves all -~..;~r~the Island? MR. DOODY: More fresh water,fortunately. MR. W. CARTER: And you have ~ybe less tide or - I cannot explain why but - ~ • S:M..ALLHOOD : It hardly sounds right. MR.. W. CARTER: Yes. But it is right.

The biologists have studied it and they found that there is a layer of fresh water which makes it impossible for lobsters to be stored alive ~uccessfull~.So we are actively looking into the possibility maybe not this year, but certainly maybe next year, providing pounds or some kind of folding areas where lobsters can be transported alive, kept in those areas - ~. SMALLWOOD: For how long? MR. W. CA-~ER: Well they can be kept · there pretty well -Under proper conditions they can - ~. SMftLLHOOD: Do you have to feed them? ~rn.. W. CARTER: I would think so.

Then allow them to go into the market place at the appropriate t~e and not during the glut period. MR. S!1ALV:.700D : That is one of the most exciting things I have heard in this session. ~'!R. W. CARTER : Thank you.

April 20, 1977 Tape No. 1720 NM- 3 MR. S~ALLWOOD: This _is yery exci~ing. _ MR. SPEA.~R: The han. member for Baie Verte - ~~ite Bay. HR. RIDEOUT : ~. Speaker, I have a question for the ~inister of Tourism, in his position of Acting Hinister of Health and Rehabilitation and Recreation. I understand there is a memorandum delivered by the ARJTN to tbe Recreation and Rehabilitation Department on March 24, 1977. I wonder if the minister could tell the House to whom this !lle!IlOrandui!l was addressed? ~·7:lo was it sent to? ~m.. SPEAKEP.: n.e hen. ~!init:er of Tourism. ~.HICKEY: ·To be ~Tery honest, ~~r.

Speaker, I do not recall, I have a copy of the document ~~d I am not quite sure. I do not want to take a chance on suggesting some name. I know that it went to the department. ~!R. RIDEOUT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. :MR.. SPEA..T<ER: - A supplementary, the original. C!uestioner. MR. RIDEOUT: I wonder if the minister could tell the House whether in fact this particular memorandum referred to was indeed brought to the minister's attention? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. ~1inister of Tourism. MR. HICKEY: I take the question to be, ~1r. Speaker, was it brought to my colleague!s attention1 MR.

RIDEOUT: Yes, you as the Acting Minister. MR. HICKEY: I am not sure~ I would have to ask that question as such. I stated earlier I know that my colleague was aware of some concerns

April 20, 1977 Tape 1721 IB-1 ~. HICKEY: at the institution. __ H~ _ to~k so~~ appropriate action on those concerns. As regarc!s to ~his p~~ti~ular document, I co not really l::no,...r. A supplementary, ~'r. Speaker. ~- . SPEAKE F.: A supplementary. ~R. RIDEOUT: I wonder then if the minister could tell the E!ouse -does he kno~T~as the acting minister., what became of this metT!orandum? !-CR. • SPEJ...KEF_: The hen. ~inister of Tourism. ~. RICKEY: ~r. Speaker, I J.-now r.rhat became of it. It ~:ras being acted upon by the department. No~1, r'r. Speaker, this is very, very serious.

I do not 1r.no~·7 what the line of questioning is - This line of questioning is serious. ~. HICKEY: and I do not question the right of an hen. gentle~an to question as on those issues. But I want to make it abundantly clear - ~1R." - ·n::ttRT_:___ We are concerned about what is happening at Exon, ~. RICKEY: - ;hat this document, if there is any suggestion that this docur1ent "'-ras in the Deparment of Rehabilitation and P.ecreation and was not being acted upon~ then that is co~letely wrong because it is an untruth.

It was being acted upon and I have already stated earlier in defence of my colleague - 'that he did take action, was a,.,.-rare of some of those issues. I cannot truthfully or otherwise say that he had the document in his hands. So therefore I am not ~oing to answer that question. But I do know that he did respond to certain issues Which-~~re the same kind of issues that were referred to in this document and that improvements and changes ~ere be~ug ma~e. ~-. RIDEO!'T : One further supple~ntary. }"R. SPE.AKE~: One additional supplementary, the original questioner. Then the hon. member for Hincsor-Buchans.

"!'hank you, ~.(r. Sreaker. I want to assure the hen. minister that we are as concerned on this side as he is about the matter and realize its seriousness. I wonder if the minister could tell the House whether or not the material in the memorandum that I am talkin~ about,

April 20, 1977 Tape 1721 IB-2 ~-. RIDE OPT: submitted last November to the ~'inister of Recreation and Rehabilitation, w'!-.ether or not that memorandum indicated any abuse such as the abuses refer! ~d to in the latter reports that . we have been talking abcut this last few dayst 'MR. SPEAKER: The hen. ~inister of Tourism. ~. HICKEY: Yes, ~r. Speaker, there ~~s reference to it and in fact as far as I know, as far as ! can determine,this matter was discussed in a very general way prior to that.

But as I stated -earlier, in the absence of docu~ented evidence and if one says concerns for treatment of chilrlren or ho,..T children are treated, you know,that is not very much to grapple with. You must have specifics and you must have documented evidence in terms of specifies. And as far as I am concerned I am satisfied totally that that ceputy minister and my colleague ~~re not supplied with the Sl)ecifics. - ~. NOL}3: Then why were you threatened vesterdav at the ores~ r.n~~~~~~~A? ~. SPEAF:EP : The hon. member for ~oTindsor-Buchans. ~~r. Speaker, to a point of privilege.

I have not been threatened by any~ne. I have not acted under threat by anyone and the Premier of this Province has not acted under threat by anyone but indeed responded to evidence ~1hich was brought forward. And hon. gentlemen opposite should be pretty damn proud of that because w~ did not see that happen for a long, long time. MP. • SPEAKEP : Order, please! Order, please! MR.. NO~i.:i:- - --=----We are not proud of 'Harold' • ~R. SPEAKEP : Order, pleas->!

The hon. gentleman has ~ade his explanation v.nder a point of privilege. !here is no ~atter for decision before the Chair, and I have indicated the ron. me!!!ber for ~,Tjnclsor-Buchans. ~~ • IT. TGHT: Thank you, "r. Speaker. ~A';y auestion <'tgafn is to the ~inister of Tourism,but it is relative to his ~inisterial Statement today with regards to the issuing of big gaT"Ie licences. The statet!'ent indicated that there is an increase of 1,400 licences this year over 1976. Would the minister indicate to the Rouse what was the basis

April 20, 1977 Tape 1721 IB-3 MR. FLIGHT: for that inc~ease, w~ether_it was because his department determined that the moose population of this Province could stand that type of an increase? ~~. SPEAKEP.: The hon. l-1inister of Tourism. }~. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, we only increase - ------MR. MORGAN: We had four claves last year! . ___ . ~.HICKEY: We only increase the - ~r. Speaker if I could answer the _auestion from ~y hon. friend.

We only increase the quotas and the number of licenses to be issued when the population will allow it, and I can say that the fact that there has been an increase simply means that the biologist and the people who are concerned w~th conservation and management are prepared to state that we can afford and can allow and the herd can sustain that kind of a year. ~.SPEA.TCEP. : A supplementary. ~-.FliGHT: The minister indicated that there would be four hundred, ayi~~i~~tely 400 non-resident licenses this year. Row will those licenses be issued?

Directly to the non-resident a~plicant or to the outfitters who will taket~~wan in the woods? ~41'-. SPEAKEP_: The hen. minister. :YR.HICKEY: ~r. Speaker, the system

April 20, 1977 Tape ~o. 1722 :NM - 1 MR. HICKEY: whereby that is handled is through the outfitters in the Province. We make available to them a·number of licences. _They tell us their requirements and we make available to them a number of licences and they in turn sell them to the hunters. MR. FLIGHT: A sup~lementary, ~~. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The final supplementary, then I will recognize the Leader of the Opposition. ~.

ROBERTS: ~~ould the minister indicate to the House if the resident hunters this year will have to remit their licence fees with their ap~lications, as opposed to remitting their licence fees upon re~eiving their licenc~s as they did last year~ Will the applicants have to remit their $15 with the application this year? MR.. SPEAKER: The· hon. Minister of Tourism. ~. HICKEY: Yes they will, ~r. Speaker; as they hand in the application they will pay for it. MR. n.IGH'I': A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEADR:. I had indicated that would be the end of the supplementaries i~ that _line.

It does not mean the hon. gentleman may not: later perhaps get back 'tvith a question. The bon. Leader of the Opposition. -MR. ROBERTS : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is addressed again to the Minister of Tourism, but in his other capacity as Acting Minister of ~ehabilitation,if I can make myself h~~rd at this point. Mr. Speaker, the minister has told us - and we appreciate and share his concern with this situation at Exon Rouse. It is very troublesome --:.. the 'izlinister has told us that his colleague, the minister, the gentleman from Ganderi was aware of, I forget the precise word the minister- I think

April 20, 1977 Tape No. 1722 NM- 2 MR. ROBERTS: complaints '~as the 'tv-ord the minister used,or concerns,well before the A&~ submitted a memorandum dated ~arch 24th and he has told us as well that the minister was aware of the memorandum dated ~arch 24th, ~fuether he had actually seen the written document or not he certainly had been told i~hat was in it. Then the minister went on to say, ~r.

Speaker, ~hat~ and this is my question although it may not be phrased as a question, but I mean it to be one~ that neither the material which ca.!lle forward in November or the memorandum ''hich was submitted in ~arch constituted documented evidence. Arld so accordingly I would ask when did the minister or his officials become aware of,I think the minister's phrase a few seconds ago in the House was documented evidence, of documented evidence of the potential or possible or reported abuses of ~~ildren at Exon House? 'MR. SPEAKER: The bon. ~inister of Tourism. ~1R. HICKEY: Mr.

Speaker, to correct one point the Leader of - MR. NOLAN: A point of order, ~r. Speaker. I am sorry I cannot hear the minister's reply. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. gentl.eman stated he cannot hear the minister's reply,so presucably the minister should speak louder or others will s~eak softer or a combination of both. The hon. Minister of Tourism. MR. MORGAN: That would be a good compromise. MR. RICKEY: Mr. Speak~r, to make one correction in the

preamble by the Leader of the Opposition~! stated that the document as produced by the Nursing Association did not constitute evidence as such. MR. ROBERTS : Well then somebody - ~~. RICKEY: Yes,but I did not make any reference to documents submitted,let us say,in ~ovember. The whole point of the issue wherein the Premier · says he wishes and wished and has announced an investigation internal, in-department probably,as well as the institution investigation. But with regards of communications

April 20, 1977 Tape 1722 JM- 3 'MR. 'HICI(EY: is the fact that the evidence which prompted us to act yesterday was submitted by the institution,or by people at the institution to the department,but that that information, that documentation did not reach either minister or the de?uty minister until this past weekend. ~. ROBERTS: Hr. Spe'aker, a supplementary. MR.. SPEAKER: A supplementary. ~fR. • ROBERTS : Again,if I may be permitted very briefly,my understanding now is that the ~arch 24th memorandum did contain evidence, to use the minister's phrase. No, I am sorry,that is not correct.

O~ay. _The November memorandum did include "evidence"­ that is correct,. o~y and that:_ it ~as . submi.tted in .November but that it was not brought··to the attention of the minister,or I think the han. gentleman added the deputy minister, ~. Pike, L~ this case. Well, can the minister tell us then how that squares with the meeting which was held in November 1976 to which I earlier referred that was attended by the deputy minister, by from Mt. Scio,who I assume was present in a. professional capacity and

April 20, 1977 Tape no. 1723 Page 1- ms Mr. Roberts. a number of other people? What was discussed at that meeting then if it was not the November memorandum? 1:-IR. SPEAKER: The han. minister. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, the discussions at that meeting to the best of my knowledge, and based on the questions that I asked about it, centred around the overall conditions at the institution: One, the absence of a dire-ctcr or nursing, absence of an administrator. I am not sure if the administrator was gone at that point, but certainly it was during that time that he was leav:ing and so on.

You see, there has been a new administrator. of the institution, and a new director of nursing since that time. MR. ROBERTS: Could the minister get the statement? MR. HICKEY: As well as that,some other areas of concern but not to my knowledge, and based on my questions and the ~nswers rnave received, no such kind of evidence,whicb could be considered as evidence by way of documented. MR. ROBERTS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker - A final supplementary. Thank you. A very brief one.

Could the minister get for the House - and I realize he probably will not have this himself now - two bits of information which I think may help to complete the jigsaw puzzle and thus show us the full picture? First of all the date of the meeting to which he just referred, the meeting at whiCh the question of administrator and director of nursing and so forth was discussed; and secondly, the exact course?

There was .a memorandum dated- my information,which comes from what I understand to be very reliable sources, :ecommendations from ARNN were delivered ~o a ministerial official on November 25, and this apparently is th~- · . m~~~d~to ~hich the minis~er T"Pfp..-a to--of- h~.;,illg- evidence of some abuses and which was not brought to the attention of the deputy minister and so forth. And this is I • ~ • • -.-4808

April 20, 1977 Tape no • 1723 Page 2 - ms Hr. Roberts. why I ask if he could get the identity of that official and what he did with the document,an~ secondly,the date of the meeting to which he just referred? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. HICKEY: l~. Speaker, for once and for all,the information which we see, which constitutes the necessity for the announcement by the Premier yesterday to look at the whole situation at Exon House,comes to us or came to us not in the farm of a b-rief • It was not handed to anyone. It was sent through the mails, and they were in the form of letters. MR. ROBERTS : When? MR.

HICKEY: Some· time last Fall, I believe the .month of November. MR.. ROBERTS : That is what I am talking about. MR. HICKEY: And they did not come. But it was not a document in terms of a brief or-anything of that nature. MR. ROBERTS: No. __ R~~~~dat:tons is the phrase l;hav~ been us~nsz. But in November? Well. whv no investieation until now? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River followed by the hon. ~- g~~t~eman for LaPoile. MR. RICKEY: Because, Mr. Speaker, we did not know about it until this weekend. Those ~re the docUDlents that we say did not come to our attention. MR. STRAClL\N: Mr.

Speaker, a question for the hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. It is a totally di~ferent subject. Could the minister give us an update on any negotiations or progress concerning the possible airstrip programme for the Labrador Coast? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, the progress being made to date is to the effect that the federal government has carried out a master

April 20, 1977 Tape no. 1723 Page 3 - ms Mr. Morgan. plan or survey whi~~ resulted in a master plan for airstips on the coast in Labrador. The Federal Minister, the han. Otto Lang,has indicated the possibility of getting some of these strips moving or started in ~he 1977 construction season. However, a meeting will be convened some time in the very near future at Ottawa between the feder3.1 minister and myself and possibly the~~ for the area, Mr.

Rompkey, and -· we will be discussing the matter further in the hope that funds ~-Till be allocated this year to get at least two or possibly tgree airstrips started along the coast this year. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile. MR. STRACHAN: A supplementary. MR.. SPEAKER: If it is a brief supplementary, I will permit it. MR. STRACHAN: Yes, it is as brief as previous ones. Could the minister tell us whether the airstrip at Cartwright will be completed this year?

It was supposed to be completed last year, __ b~~ could .he instruct us whether that will be completed this year,and whether the one at Ri.golet will be started this year and hopefully completed? MR. SPEAKER: The han. minister. MR. MORGAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, Th~ airstrip at Cartwright was commended under the provincial goverament 's plan to develop airstrips along the coast, and this was separate from the master plan now devised by the federal level of government. But that airstrip, tenders were let last year with a contractor from Deer Lake, Chalks COnstruction.

We will be continuing that development there in 1977,hopefully to completion, maybe not to full completion by means of paving the strip, but by at !east the total construction. And that programme is strictly under the provincial government funding with very little output from the federal level of government financially, in fact to the amount of only_ $100,000.

April 20, 1977, Tape 1724, Page 1 -- apb l1R. !·10RGA!-1 : In Rigolet, Mr. Speaker, the situation there is we have a maintenance unit from our own department in Rigolet. The equipment Has moved in last Fall. That · equi~ment will stay in Rigolet until \ve complete the road reconstruction around the community and at least get the airstrip. to a point -..There it can be used. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for LaPqile, as I indicated earlier. ~·'!R. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, my question is for the ~1inister of Transportation and Conrnunications, Sir 1 and I might say I gave the minister notice of this question a · couple of days. ago because I would not expect the answer off the top of the Minister's head. But with the controversy ~~at has arisen because of the supersonic plane, the Concord that is now jetting back and forth across the Atlantic and that has landed at Gander and will probably be making landings at Gan9,er, has the minister's department done any research in connection with ~~e probl~~s that are arising in other countries in connection r,/i th the Concord?

Is there any danger to the hearing, for 1 instance, of the people in Gander wi~~ the Concord landing at Gander? Has the minister's department done any research on this matter at all? ~!R. SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of Transpcrtation and Communications. l-!R. HO RG.A..'t : ~~- Speaker, last year ~~e Concord landed at Gander as we all know and did a considerable number of tests at t..~e Gander Airport.

The rumvays at the airport were found to be satisfactory to the Concord people and the pilots etc., and also from my reports that have been gathered by the Director of Air Services in the Department of Transportation and Communications, Hr. Si..T'!ml.ons 1 indications are from the people concerned in

April 19, 1977, Tape 1724, Page 2 -- apb HR. MORGAN: the Gander area,that they are quite pleased to be able __ to, l:lopeful~y, avail of the services .of the Concord. There are no complaints with regard to the noise level etc. which "~;•le hear from . other parts of tpe world, particularly in the States these days~with regards to the Concord. So all indications are, and I would like to point out to ~~e hon. the Leader of the d"-onosition, unfortunately last Fall I was asked to t~~e a ·trip on the Concord as ~-1inister of Transportation in the Province here, from Gander to London but unfortunately my busy

schedule would not allow me to get away from my office. AN HON. ~lE..."'!BER : _I. ~igned the petition, MR. MORGAN: So, Mr. Speaker, the indications are that the Concord people are quite satisfied wi~~ the Gander Airport and the facilities there. The people of Gander are quite satisfied and hopefully can avail of the services of the Concord. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Sir. HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The ~~irty minutes have expired. It being Private ~·1embers' Day the adjourned debate on Motion 10. The hon. the member for LaPoi ·le. NR. NEARY: Hr.

Speaker, I only have a few minutes left in my support of the resolution, Sir, to appoint a select committee of the House to look into this whole matter of joint ventures. I pretty well covered all the points ~~at I wanted to make, Sir, and so I will only be a few more minutes. I know the minister is anxious to probably get into this debate. Mr. Speaker, I will be very, very interested in hearing what the minister has to say about joint ventures because I believe the

April 20, 1977, Tape 1724, Page 3 -- apb HR. NEARY: first joint venture in the whole history of Canada, probably in ~~e history of North Arnerica,has just concluded. I was listening the other day to a captain of a West German ship being intervie,ied, I believe it was by the CBC, and the gentleman - maybe I have the wrong impression, or I _ m~~;n~~preted __ _ the gentleman:- but he see.'!led to be . feis -.:t:_~c:u~ .. ~nthusiastic about the success of this joint venture ?ri~ciple.

I also heard, I believe it was one of the fish plant operators commenting on it,and he seemed to be a little more en~~usiastic but I could not understand ~~~hy. My understanding, Mr. Speaker, of the first joint venture attempt in this Province is that it has been a complete flop and a failure. It has failed. ~~e i}ave not been able to find out in this House, Sir, who is paying for the landing

April 20 , 19 77 Tape 1725 PK - 1 Mr. Neary: and the processing of the fish in this Province. ~s it the West Germans? Is it the federal government? Is it the provincial government? Is the cost shared jointly by the Province, by the West German people or by the government? rfuat are the financial arrangements? I have put questions to the Minister of Fisheries and to the Premier about the cost of this joint venture. Because I am told that the processing of the fish cost much more than fish that is landed by Newfoundland boats. It has to be taken ashore.

I believe it is landed in Harbour Grace, it is de - what do you call defrozen? MR. S~..ALLWOOD: Defrosted. MR. NEARY: Defrosted. It has to be left for a period of time so that fish can thaw out because it is frozen when it is brought ashore, and then it has to be trucked down to Marystown. MR. SMALLWOOD: It is not trucked after defrosting. MR. NEARY: It has to be trucked - well, Mr. Speaker, my source of information in the community of . Harbour Grace tells me that it did not create one single job in the community of Harbour Grace. MR. H. YOUNG: HR. NEARY: Processing. Well, Mr.

Speaker, I have not had a report since Honday, maybe they did start on Mcnday, but the fishing industry is now starting again on the East Coast. I do not know if they are processing West German fish or processing local fish. And I want the minister to give us a few details. Mr. Speaker, that is why I am making these statements. AN HON. MEMBER: It is nonsense. MR. NEARY: It may be nonsense. Maybe it is nonsense. But I want to know who is paying for it. I want to know if the fish plants are being subsidized. MR. W. CARTER: The West Germans are paying for it. MR.

NEARY: The West Germans are paying for it,so the minister tells us, well I 1:11ant the minister to - HR. SMALLWOOD: Because it is. their fish? MR. W. CARTER: So much per pound.

April 20, 1977 Tape 1725 PK- 2 MR. Sl1ALL't-100D: They catch it. They take it away back to Germany, so it is their fish, so they pay for it. ·SOME RON • MEMBEF S : Oh, oh! MR. NEA...~Y: _So, Mr. Speaker, then ao I understand from the minister that that this joint venture will not cost the taxpayers of this Province one cent? Is that the understanding the minister is giving. the House;:: t~(_ . the full cost of this pilot project will be borne by the West Germans? MR. W. CARTER: Yes. MR. • NL'u'tY : 't.J'ell okay, well and good then, Sir. But, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to hear from the minister if the first joint venture attempted in this Province up to now has been a success or no~, and I would like to·get the minister's reaction. MR.. SMALLWOOD: What they just had is a one shot thing. Now is that the pattern of the MR. NEARY: That is right. ~.J'ell that is what we ~..-ant to know, if this is going to SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: Well this is the first joint venture of 6,000 ~eerie tons of West German fish that was suppose to be put ashore in Newfoundland, processed at Harbour Grace and at Marystown.

Now I would also like to know why it was necessary to put it ashore in Harbour Gr~ce. During the landing of this fish in Harbour qrace I am told by a very reliable source of information in that community that it did not create one job, putting that fish ashore at Harbour Grace. Now it may have created jobs now, I do not know about now in the plant,but it was trucked down to ~~rystown, and it was either processed or is in the process of being run through the plant now at Marystown.

But I ·have been told -r do not -know perhaps the minister can straighten me out on this.;;. that they did not anticipate such huge ships, that the ships would be so big, and that ~~ey could not dock at Marystown, and they had to land their fish at Harbour Grace.

April 20, 1977 Tape 1725 PK - 3 Mr. Neary: But anyway these are a few details, Sir, that I would like to find out, and perhaps the minister can straighten us out. But, Mr. Speaker, the main thing is that we want to find out if this is going to set a pattern for the future. Because if it is, Sir, in my opinion, it could turn out to be a very, very dangerous pilot project. It could be very dangerous for the trawler fishermen in this Province, and in this country, not only in Newfoundland, but in the whole of Eastern Canada.

Because if the fish plant operators who up to no~v have not been prepared tQ reinvest in the fishery of this Province, who have not been prepared to build fleets of draggers and trawlers that are necessary to provide the capability to catch the fish, and they take the line of least resistance and they find that the Europeans are easier to deal with, there are no unions, that productivity is greater than it is here on the Island of Newfoundland,then that is the route they are going to take, and they are going to force our own people off the very high seas that we fought so hard to get for the implementation of the 200 mile limit.

And that is the danget:' and the weakness in playing around with the joint venture system. Nmv, Mr. Speaket:, the minister himself just came back from a jaunt to Europe with the Premier to look at some boats a~d ships

April 20,1977 Tape 1726 AH-1 HR. NEARY: -, over there and I am not 100 per cent opposed to that. I think it could probably be a te~orary measure to try to provide the capability to catch the fish that w~ are allowed to catch N'ithin the 200 mile limit, but it should not be a long-term plan. If these tra~-Tlers and boats are going to be leased they should be leased on a one year contract, one year charter. Because, Mr.

Speaker, I think most members of this House will agree with me that what we should do is to - while this is only a temporary, stop-gap measure -is to look at what our requirements are going to be for the next ten or fifteen or t~.renty years. MR.. CARTER.:. We are_ ci('i~~ t:"-at now. . MR. NEARY Doing it now. I am glad to hear it, Sir. But I am raising it and I hope the minister will respond, because I think it is something that needs to be straightened out too.

For instance, we have to decide, we have to decide in this Province and in this country, in Eastern Canada, if in order for us to take full advantage of the 200 mile limit if we have to build big factory ships like the Russians · have now on the Grand Banks , that stay there year round. The hon. Premier, I believe, the former Premier was aboard of one of these ships~if I remember correctly. They are huge ships, Sir, they leave Russi~. They come and they stay on the Grand Banks for twelve mouths out of a year.

They have gmaller ships bringing over supplies and fuel and taking ~he processed fish and bringing it back to Russia. MR.. S1-f..ALUiOOD : And interchange of crews. And interchange of crews. I think they stay for six months. tVhat we have to decide, Sir, is T.o7hether ~•e want to compete, if we have to compete, if we are going to be forced to catch the fish that we are allowed to catch within

April 20, 1977 Tape 1726 AH-2 MR. NEARY: the 200 mile limit, if we have to get big factory ships like the Russians have. If so ~~11 the crew be changed, say, like they do on the oil drilling rigs - once a month or every two weeks will the crew be taken back and forth on. helicopter? Will they have the facilities on board? ~y info~tion, Sir, from people who have been on .board of· thes~ ships is that they are absolutely magnificent ships.

That they have theatres on board , they have libraries on board, they have schools on board so that young people who are interested in getting into the fishery can go and continue their education while they are living on board. ~~ RON. MEMBER: And they have women on board. MR. NEARY: And they have females on board, not to keep up the morale of the crew. They are there the same as you would work on shore in a fish plant. They have their job . to do. And I understand that there have been cases when they were married on board. 'MR. 51-f...ALL HOOD : (Inaudible) l--!R.

NEARY: I do not know if any children have been born on these Russian ships or not. They probably take them back - AN RON. MB1BER: ~fuo was married. MR. NEARY: The crew, the workers on the factory ships. And they have great recreation facilities on board the ships. And , Mr.

Speaker, what I want to know is, ls the government,is. the minister thinking about that kind of ship where instead of having the workers and the plant workers and the crew staying on board six months out of a year,they would probably stay for two weeks or a month and then be brought and forth to sharP. by helicopter, the-- same as they do with the oil drilling rigs· Is this what the minister is thinkin~ about? And then a smaller type ship, dragger and trawler and what have you. So, Mr. Speaker, there has to be some careful and serious planning put into this whole matter of the fishery in the future.

April 21,19 77 Tape 1726 AH-3 HR. n:~.RY: The minister has, and I cannot help but . ·repeat· this, probably has the most responsible job now in the •ihole Cabinet. SOME HON. MEMBSRS Hear, hear~ ~- ~Y: The fishery, Sir, and I hav~ to say this again, the fishery in my opinion will the most important industry in this Province in the future as it has been in the past. ~- . DOODY: I hope you will remember that on budget day. ~. m:ARY: I will, Sir, remember it on budget day,and I hope there will be a few more dollars in the Department of Fisheries estimates. Mr.

Speaker, our whole lifestyle and the economy of this Province will go up or down depending on the future of the fishery. Granted, Sir, as my hon. friend has used the argument;~- - ! have heard the hon. gentleman argue in this House many times, that you need the development of your ~neral resources, that will come, that will come automatically. You need your paper mills and you need to utilize your forestry. ~y hon. friend may not agree you need your linerboard mills. I believe that could be a viable operation if the government had not leaped in when the:: should not have,

April 20, 1977. Tape 1727 RH - 1 HR. ~~ARY: if they had left it to private enterprise. MR. S~1ALL HOOD: Or if John Crosbie had not been involved. HR. NEARY: That is right. And we need, Mr. Speaker, we need other forms of industrial development in this Province. That will all come. But I believe our main thrust, the emphasis in the future ,should be on the fishery. And we cannot afford, Mr. Speaker, to make - MR. PATTERSON: What ab.out, "Burn your boats?" MR. ~Y: Mr. Speaker, that is a myth, by the way. That is a myth, Sir. I have heard that quoted from one end of this country to the other.

I have asked the former Premier of thi~ Province if a statement was made to the fishermen of this Province to burn your boats. And I am told that the statement was never made~although it has been quoted, I suppose, more than any - MR. SMALLWOOD: It never happened. MR. PATTERSON: "Burn you boats\''- I t:ead it in a bo~k, in . fact. It was a book written about the Great Northern Peninsula. MR. NEARY: But who was the book written by? ___ ... - · . MR. PATTERSON: _ . . __ (Inaudible). HR. NEARY: Well I am sure the han. member for Twillingate(Mr. Smallwood) is quite capable of speaking for himself.

But I remember - MR. SMALLWOOD: Could I have the name of the book? Write a note over and tell me. MR. NEARY: I must say I never heard the han. gentleman make the statement and I do not think the statement was ever made. It might have been made by somebody else,but not the han. former Premier of this Province. I remember they used to say the hon. former Premier was a dictator. I was three and a half years in the han. gentleman's Cabinet and not once, Sir, did the han. gentleman interfere ~v-ith my running of ~~e Department of Social Services, not once, not once. The only time I had a little bit of

April 20, 1977 . Tape 1727 RH - 2 MR. SMALUlOOD: What coule the Minister of Fin~'ce be laughing about? ~~at is funny about that statement? What merited the laughter? What was it? MR. DOODY: I have every right to laugh if I fe~l like it. ~. SMALLWOOD: Of course, of course. MR. NEARY: But it is no laughing matter, Sir, because - MR. SMALLWOOD: But if a man laughs without reason he is an imbecile. Now what is the reason? HR.

NEARY: Wel11 in that case we have ninety per cent on the other side, Sir, who are in that category, because last night yTe saw a little bit of laughter from the other side from the obnoxious statements that were being made by the member for St. John's North(Mr. J. Carter). But, Mr. Speaker, it is no laughing matter. I do not think the statement was ever made. But anyway,I am not going to get sidetracked. The bon. gentleman can very well take care of himself.

But I hope, Sir, that when the Minister of Fisheries participates in this discussion,in this debate,that the minister will lay out a short-term plan and a long-term plan for the future of the fisheries in this Province. I think the minister has a very heavy responsibility on his shoulders at the present time. I think the minister is capable of doing it. Now that is not blarney, Sir, and malarky. I have travelled with the minister. I know how the fishermen feel about him.

In their hearts right . now they feel that here is a minister who is ~ince~e,_who they thin~ can help them, who they think can do something for the fishery of this Province. But we are going to have to put it on a business-like basis. We are going to have to break with tradition. We are going to have to improve our productivity. And we are going to have to do an inventory of what we have at the present time and use that as a foundation for planning for the future. So let us hope, Mr. Speaker, that the minister will be able to tell us what the government's philosophy is, what the plans are for

April 20 , 19 77 . Tape 1727 RH - 3 MR. NEARY: the future of JOint ventures and what long and short-term plans . this government has for the future . of the fishery in this Province. We are calling for a select committee of the House. I · have an open mind on that, Sir. I am open. If the Premier and the administration feel in their wisdom that it should not be a select committee, that it should be a special committee of some kind~ well then I have an open mind. I am quite prepared to go along t.7 ith that.

But I think, Sir, the i:nportant thing is that the government, b~cause of the serious nature of this business, and tha~ we cannot afford to make a singl~ mistake or blunder at this point in time regarding the fishery, that the Premier and the administration will be well advised to draw upon the brains, if there are any brains in this House, to draw upon the intelligence and the brains of members on either side of the House, cross party lines. This is no time to be partisan, no time to b~ political. It is a pretty, pretty serious matter and the whole future of Newfoundland is in our hands.

So I do not care if it is a special -committee or a select committee. Sir, I would like to see the Premier set up some kind of a committee of members of this House representing all sides of the House to look into this whole matter of joint ventures and to assist the minister and to try and provide some help to the administration in laying down a solid foundation, to lay down a short-term programme and a long-term progrmnme for the fishery in this Province.

April 20 , 19 77 Tape 1728 LB-1 ~~ .. SPL~R: Ron. me~ber for Twillingate. ~"R.S}1'.m.WOOD: ~r. Speaker, may I begin my brief remarks-I n.ope they Pill be fairly brief. One never knows in corn:rnencing a speech just hm.r long it may turn out to be, especially if it is on the great basic original industry of this province the thing that brought people here and. supported them for nearly 50!1 years. - I would like to begin these brief remarks by paying a tribute to the minister of Fisheries. ~~ot because of his political beliefs or his political loyalties or his political allegiances.

Ee began his political life as a Liberal, as a friend of mine,personal ' friend of mine, who worked in my office when I ~1as Premier,. did a good job.. in that capacity, then ran as a Liberal candidate under my leadership and sat here in this Chamber very much in the physical position he is in at the moment. He was not very far removed geographically from where he sits at this moment. Subsequently 1 he havin~ been elected deputy mayor of the ancient capital that is St. Jo~n's,he ran for the Rouse of Commons and ~.ms elected but on another ticket under the aus~ices of another party.

As minister of fisheries in the present administration I believe, I believe ·- my belief may not be shared by all hon. members on thi'S s:!.de of the Rouse. I cannot help that and if it is so I regret it.~ but ~Y own belief is that the=hon. minister is using all his ability,whatever that may be, certainly all of his sincerity and all of his personal ambition, using all that to try to do a good job as N~·~oundland 's minister of fisheries.

I would say that all Newfoundlanders ought to appreciate that in him,as it ought to ap~reciate the same kind of service in any minister or any member,as it ought,in my belief,to annre~iate the services that are being; rendered to Ne~1foundland by the hen. !l"e~_l,er ~·Th.o just took his seat, the ~e'!!!her for LaPoile. ~ow havin~ said that, and before I ~o on to ask one or two questions, reay I say for the record, for perhaps for the twentieth t~e,that never in my life have I advised the fishermen of Newfoundlan~ to burn their boats. Never in

April 20, 1977 Tape 1728 LB-2. MR.. S¥ALLWOrm: my life was I that stupid, ~.;as I that foolish, was I that silly, ;.ras I so imbecillic as to advise the. fishermen of Ne"!;vfoui:trlland to destroy or to burn their twenty, thirty thousand boats or whatever the number might have been around the ti~e that I was alleged to have said it. I never said,Burn your boats, destroy your ~oats, eat your boats, do anything with yo~ boats except use them to produce fish., or anything approaching any such remark I ~.:ould have been a dal!lilable fool.

I '·I'Ould have been a complete i:!!!.~ecile,and no one ever accused me yet of being an imbecile. That is one charge that has never yet~been laid against me, of being an imbecile~of being stupid •. ~-:'Oh, I have been charged ~nth many things but never with the crime of stupidity. I have often auoted here in this House when I was Premier the oid saying: that God could forgive every sin but one,the sin of stupidity. That is one sin that God never needed to forgive me for because I have never been stupid. I have made mista~es but I have never been stupid.

Row stupid '-.70uld a Premier of a province have to be, the Leader of a political party in Ne~vfoundland - now if it were Ohio or 't.J'iscnn-siti.; .. perhap_s_

April 20, 1977, Tape 1729, Page 1 -- apb rom. SNALLWOOD : perhaps- but in Newfoundland where for 500 ye~.rs ... ·!=.h·~ _ _l:~asic industry of our people has been the fishery, how stupid ~vould the leader of a political party have to be to a·dvise the fishermen to burn their boats? a.lt. -J. CA..~TER: I believe it though. You said that once. HR. SHALLWOOD: The hon. gentleman believes it? T~e hon. gentleman has an inordinate capacity to believe anything evil about me. I mean, ~~ere is no limit to his credibility. Ee ~vill believe anything on ~~is earth.

If someone ever hints that I committed murder he will believe_ l t, that I committed rape he will believe it, that I conunitted embezzlement he ~vill believe it, that I committed cruelty to animals or to children, that I was a wife beater he will believe it. Any crL~e or sin or offence or felony of any kind that anyone ever hL~ts, he will believe that I committed it. "-- -- --·- ---- .. -- - ~ . . ! . r.AR'M;'R : ~1R. SHALL 'NOOD : That is quite true.

That is quite true and I have know ~~is for some considerable tirne,and I must admit that I have not heard the han. gentleman speak in this House ever, and I have only heard him since I have been re-elected here because he did not have the honour to occupy a seat in this House when I was here before, in ~,ose twenty-three years. But in the last year-and-a-half he has occupied a seat and I have heard him speak four or f~ve times,and not without complete enjoyment on my part. I enjoy his wit, I enjoy the n~bleness of his speech.

Ee has a very good command of English, he has a store of anecdotes and funny sayings, and I enjoyed eve~] one of them. And above it all, I have marvelled, I have never ceased to marvel at the bottomless pit of his animosity, of his vindictiveness, of his hatred. I think it is 4825

April 20, 1977, Tape 1729, Page 2 -- apb HR. SHALLWOOD: inexhaustible,and all expressed with wit and with- -humour and with good fun and amusement, and I have enjoyed every moment of it. And some people have said," Emv in God's name can you take that?" "Nell~_ , I have said, "if it were from the Premier, fq_;: example, or even the Minister of Finance,! would be a little more co'ncerned. But coming from the hon. me.Titber for St. John's North (Mr. J. Carter), to me it is a matter of inexpressible joy and arp.usement." I pay the hon. gentleman that tribute,if he can accept it. MR. YOUNG: A point of order, ~rr.

Sp~aker. -MR.--SPEAxER (cofiins > : I would like, Sir, for you to explain what ~~e hon. gentleman's remarks now have to do with ~~e joint ventures. I think he'is rather irrelevant. MR. S~..ALL'NOOD: Hr. Speaker, I could explain to the hen. ma~er, mv dear friend the hon. member,who once pleaded wi~~ me with tears in his eyes to allow him to run as my candidate - ~or _ the Liberal Party in Harbour Grace District, with . tears in his eyes - SOf."..E HON. ~1EMBERS : Oh, oh! M.,"q. WHITE : How about that, 'Baigey'? l.ffi.

SMALLWOOD : I say this to my dear friend, the hon. member, that I can explain a thing to him ]out only God can give him th~ intelligence to understand it when I do explain it. That is beyond my power to give him that much intelligence. ~-!R. SPEAKER (Collins) : Order, please! To rule on the ooint of order~ I have to rule that ~~e hon. ~e.Titber for Twillingate (r-1r. Srnall't<~ood) , his remarks are not irrelevant. He did preface his remarks by stating that they did bear upon the remark ascribed to him in relation to boats and the fisheries. The hon. the member for T-.:dllingate.

April 2-, 1977, Tape 1729, Page 3 -- apb S0~1E HON. t-ffi.~BERS: Hear, hear! !·1R. Sl-iALL\•7000: I thank Your Eonour. ~lR. YOUNG: t·7ha t abo~t the ti..11e you wan ted . me to run and I would not run? AR. t-r.·:ITE: Go home, boy. MR. Sr·iALLWOOD : I thank Your Honour for the ruling that Your Honour has given and I do hope that my dear friend from AN EON. !·1E11BER : t'7hat friend? ~ .. !R. S(·!..2\LL~100D : - ~~om Harbour Grace · wil~ take due note ·of ~~e fact that he must not tangle with this particular member when it comes to matters of parliamentary procedure, practice and precedent. I have quite a long record of experience in those matters ~~at he has not yet had. Ee will

April 20, 1977 Tape 1730 JM- 1 MR.. SHALU700D : in the course of time no doubt if he continues to be Deputy Speaker, Chairman of the Committee of the vfuole, to learn and to acquire ex;>erience and knowledge,and I wish him ~.;ell: I wish him well in that because I have no feeling of animosity whatever toward him, sometimes a feeling of compassion, pity,_ but alioTays love and regard. MR. YOUNG: -- How do you like the - ~. NOLAN: He is more to be pitied than laughed at. ~. WHITE: He is ~ore to be pitied than laughed at. Ignore him.

I will not be diverted further from my han. friend, the Minister of Fisheries, for i-Tholi;,aS he must know by now~I have a lot of respect, a lot of admiration. If I were Premier of this Province today I would want to have as ~ister of Fisheries the man ~vho is now the ~.inister of Fisheries. I am not hinting. I ~ not trying to ent~ce him. I am not trying to get him to cross the floor nor any coalition -of that nature. I just want to say to him that I respect and admire hil!l. and I believe that Newfoundland - You just heard a moment ago a tribute, Mr.

Speaker, to the ~ister of Fisheries from the hardest hitting . member of this House, mill hardest hitting member that this House has seen since Peter Cashin,and he was the hardest after Sir. ~1ichael Cashin. And there you have in a direct line from about 1918 or 1919 to now the three great battlers - Sir ~chael Cashin, Major Peter Cashin and the present hon. member for LaPoile.

We just heard that hard hitting member praise our present ~nister of Fisheries as a good minister and praise from Sir Rubert is praise indeed. ~ay I invite the minister to tell me if I am correct,and even if he just nods I ivill be happy to have that confirmation of my belief that this great Labrador Sea,and the great Labrador Sea lies of course off the Coast of Labrador and the member for the district who is listening outside will know

April 20, 1977 Tape 1730 JM- 2 MR.

SMALU"'OOD : what I am talking about as the minister will, that the 200 mile limit in a peculiarily Newfoundland sense, not just Eastern c~~ada, not the Atlantic Seaboard of Canaca,but the ~ewfoundland Seaboard of Canada,that the 200 mile limit ·means chiefly, primarily, not only but pr±carily~the great Labrador Sea ~vhich is now the great reservoir of groundfish, . of codfish for . . - . -- ---·---- - this Province' -· ~o~nly because it has a vast stock of'codfish but is the supplier of codfish to the whole Northeast Coast of the Island of Ne~~oundland, Is that not broadly correct? MR. W.

CARTER: Yes, I would think so. ~1R. SMALUTOOD: Yes, the minister thinks so and I am glad to have this confirmation. Now,so that the importance of the Labrador Sea and this enormous stock of codfish which must number t~illions, not millions, not billions but trillions of individual codfish~ somebody told me one time that there was so much codfish on the Grand Banks that if they all came in to Placentia Bay,which is our biggest bay,they would fill that bay from the bottom u~ to the surface of the water, the entire bay,so there would be no room for_any water.

In other words an increditable, a fantastic solid mass of codfish ~.;hich of course without ~vater could not live. But that is how much fish there would be, now this is ~~enty, thirty years ago when there was no question of shortage, of diminution of the stocks at that time.,but today that is what you could say about the Labrador Sea - enormous, staggering stoc~ of codfish. I would assume the minister would with a nod confirm broadly the truth of that description. Yes. Now, Sir, t also had the imPression that precious few Newfoundlanders have gone there fishing.

April 20, 1977. Tape 1731 RH - 1 MR. SMALL't~OOD : Oh we have gone up and down the landwash hardly ever out of sight of the land, ~of the foreshore. We have done that for generations, for centuries, fishing along the coast, the shore of L~brador. But I "am talking about that great Labrador Sea. What is it - 100, 150, 200 miles . . off the ·coast of Labrador, the shoreline of Labrador, that virtually .no __ or _verv _few Newfoundlanders have ever fished in those ____ _ _ tremendous waters so far as codfish are concerned. I take it that that .,1 is broadly correct as well.

The minister confirms by his nod that my assertion is broadly correct. He allows, I allow for some exceptions. Theremay perhaps have been some Newfoundlanders down there, but broadly speaking that is not where Newfoundlanders have gone. Now I come to a third point. If that is where the vast volume of fish is to be found.,and if Newfoundlanders have not been in the habit of going there fishing, who is going to do the fishing there in future?

At the moment the government,with the consent of the Government of Canada, the government have ent~red into a joint partnership arrangement with the ~est Germans to go there and catch - what is it? - 6 million metric tons or - MR. DOODY: Six thousand MR.. SMALLWOOD: Six thousand metric ~ons,which is a lot of fish. And that is for ':~hat, one .. year, for this present - MR. w. CARTER: MR. SMALLWOOD: Well if it was a one shot operation when they would get their six thousand tons, metric tons, that. Y~uld end that. That has been done. That experiment is now over. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

A point of order has come up. MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, could we have a quorum callr ~IR. SPEAKER: A quorum has been called. I have been informed a quorum is present. The hen. member for Twillingate.

April 20, 1977 Tape no. 1732 Page 1 - ms HR. SHALLWOOD: ~. Speaker, if these are facts, and the minister confirms that they are, that is where the vast bulk of the fish are, that is where Newfoundlanders generally speaking have not gone in the past, and that is where the Germans and perhaps the Russians and other Europeans, the Poles and so on, have gone.

My first question to the minister is this: - and before I ask him the question let me say to him that I was talking with the operator of a fish plant, a large fish plant, a very knowledgeable general manager and owner of a fish plant just a few we~~ ago,and I asked him the point-plank question. He has been a personal friend of mine for many years.

And I said tll him, "Tell me,in your opinion· do you see for the next ten, twenty, thirty years, do you see the deep-sea fishery of Newfoundland being carriec;l on by Newfoundlanders?" He said, "What exactly do you mean'?" I said, "What I mean is, do you .see the deep-sea fishery and especially the Labrador Sea where this _ y~t yolume of fish are, _do you see that being prosecuted in future by ships owned by Newfo!lndlanders and manned by Newfoundlanders?" We had been discussing the joint ve~;~e id.ea to which he had a favourable reaction. He was favourab!e to it. He thought it was the right thing to do.

He thought it was all right. And I said, "Well all right, but these are Germans. It is a German ship. And we have a few Newfoundland observers on board, but we have a captain or two, and we have some practical men, maybe - what? - four or five, six, eight men on a ship in a ship that had -what? - 100 to 150 men - MR. W. CARTER: Seventy-five men altogether. ~.

SHALLWOOD: - seventy-five men, with three or four or five or six ~ewfoundlanders on board to watch, to observe, to take notice of what was going on; but these ships were German ships, they were enormously big, they were enormously modern, they were enormously scientific, they had the last word in the world in the techniques of finding and catching fish, they had enormous comfort

April 20, 1977 Tape no. 1732 Page 2 - ms Mr . Smallwood • and lu;~ry on board,as my friend here described to us, and three or four or five Newfoundlanders to watch and look and report to the minister or to anyone else as to. ~•hat they saw. We discussed that, and then I asked him the question: Do you think that for the next five, ten, twenty, thirty years that great fishery -you know, within the 200 mile limit - to get which it has taken over ten years. Mr. Diefenbaker rather threw cold water on it. Mr. Pearson said, "Yes, it could and it should and it must be done." And he went, and they both went. Mr.

Trudeau came. He has been there now for six years and it is about this year - is it? - Ja11uary, we finally got the 200 mile limit. It was a tremendous battle to get it, argument, propaganda. The Liberals claiming the credit for it. The Tories claiming the credit for it. For what? Ten~ twelve years. But we have it now as of January·past. Now how ~ood is it to us? We know that it is this good; that if the stocks are allowed to increase, to regenerate~ it will be wonderful for our inshore fishermen along the Northeast Coast. ~-londerful! There surely is no room for any argument about that.

April 20, 1977. Tape 1733 RH - 1 MR. SMALLWOOD: It is going to mean a lot more fish coming into the land that we can take with longliners, we can take with traps, we can take with the old ways of taking fish along, you know, a mile, two, three, four, five miles off, or a bit more, off the land. But the deep sea fishery, is this going to be a Newfoundland thing or a Eur9pean thing? That is what I want to know.

My friend, the owner and operator of a large fish plant~told me that in his opinion in ten years there will be hardly a Newfoundlander going off to sea in the fishery. wnen I wrote my autobiography, I confessed my shame that I have felt when I-heard that my successor, the present Premier,had announced a magnificent programme to build a fleet of draggers at Marystown, the government to build a fleet of draggers at public expense, draggers that would be owned by the government, but not operated by the government but rather to be rented,to be leased,to the fish plant firms or even to be sold to them.

But .the government would build a fleet, ~.;hat was it, forty or some large number of draggers. When I read that I was acutely ashamed that as Premier I had not thought of that. If I had I would have done it. And I congratulated the Premier in my autobiography for doing it. Now it has not been done , and I am honestly curious to know why.

Is it because the government have decided privately within their own ranks,or in the inner circle of the government, have they decided along the same lines that this fish plant owner and operator has done as he told me three, four weeks ago that in his opinion in ten, fifte~· years there will be virtualfy no Newfoundland fishermen going deep sea arid above all going to the Labrador Sea off the Coast of Labrador? Have the government come to the private conclusion that the fish firms, the plants,are not going to be interested in going in debt to build ships?

Have they decided that our men are not going to be sufficiently attracted to go and man those ships? After all, Mr. Speaker, and no one will appreciate this more than does the Minister of Fisheries, after all, ------ ------ ------ ------ ---- ---- - ---

April 20, 1977. Tape 1733 RH - 2 MR. SMALLWOOD: you look at the Newfoundland of this m0111eut and what do you find? You find thousands upon thousands 6f _yoti:ng men with their grade eleven. You find thousands of young Newfoundlanders who have gone through the t1:ade _schools. You find thousands of Newfoundlanders who have goue through. the. Fisheri.es College . and you find thousands of Newfoundlanders who have gone through the university and who have got their B.A. or their M.A.

All together in Newfoundland at this moment you have got tens and tenS of thousax:J.ds of young men of the age that you would . . expect to find manning the deeps~ fis}J._ii;g fle~?t. rou have s:ot. them who are graduates of schools of one kind and another. are they going to be enticed, attracted to go deep sea fishing?

April 20, 1977 !ape no. 1734 Page 1 - ms MR. SMALLWOOD: This plant owner and operator told me, No, he thought not. He thought they would not.

Now if our own men will not go deepsea fishing, if they ~-1ill not, no matter ho~.; attractive you make the ship, no matt~r how good the food is on the ship, no matter how comfortable the quarters are on the ship, no matter what attraction you offer by way of a short time at sea and an equal time ashore, no matter how attractive you set out,or the plants • set out,the ship owners set out to make life on ~~e draggers attractive, no matter how much you do that, you will find increas~ngly as the years pass,~ ever increasing difficulty to get men to man the ships. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Why would t.'la t be? MR.

SMALLWOOD: That is a question I am asking. I am not answering the question. I am asking it. \olil.;I. it turn out to be the. case that because on the one hand we have an increasing number of young men of the age, now mind you,in the outports I am not talking about city youths or Corner Brook youth or Grand Falls - I am talking abeut the outports generally that always generated the supply of fishermen,- did they not? I am - -...... -·. ,. . -- talking _ about them. In them today you have got thousands of young Newfoundlanders who have a higher level of education than we have ever known in the past.

And the question I am asking is this - not. answering, asking - Will you find it possible and practical and likely in the future to get them to go fishing on deepsea draggers even if the pay is good, even if the accommodation on board is quite comfortable, even if the food is good, even if the hours are not oppressive, are we doomed to see the day when the plants will not be able to get men to man the spips? Would that by any chance be the reason or part of the reason why the plant owners seem to be powerfully disinclined to launch into the deep with new ships?

I do not find any over-powering - desire or planning on the part of the fish plants to launch out into the building or buying or even leasing of ships. t-lould the minister,

April 20, 19J7 Tape no. 1734 Page 2 - ms Mr • Smallwood . in his reply, give me, in the Rouse, his opinions. He must have thought of these matters. He has .got to have thought of them. ·I am not originating these thoughts. He must have had them, and he must have heard them from other people. Now that brings me to a final point · and that is this: ' We know it is desirable, but is it possible to making fishing a career?

So that if a young fellow goes up to the university and he gets his B.A., his amBition is not necessarily to become a teacher, to become a civil engineer, to become a doctor, to become a clergyman, to become a journalist, to become a politician, his ambition is to launch himself upon a career in a modern fishery, and not a . co~ trap, not even a longliner, but a great modern, ultra~odern deepsea floating plant in which he can earn a salary better than he would get if he were a bank clerk, better than he would get if he were a plumber, or an electrician, better than he would get at almost anything else he could go at~ Is it practical or is it just a dream?

Is it just a pipe dream to think that the fishing industry can be made so modern, so attractive, so honoured, honoured throughout the community of Newfoundland that thousands of young men be attracted to it as a place to make a career, where you go to work and you earn your $18,000 or $20,000 a year~and after . ------~- - -- - - -·- .

April 20, 1977. Tape 1735 RH- 1 MR. SMALLWOOD: an apprenticeship you become a mate~and after a little longer you become a captain and you are making your ·$35,000 or $40,000 a year: Is that a pipe dream? Twenty years ago if you had suggested that you would have been locked up,and you probably deserved to be locked up. But today, Sir, as the Minister of Fisheries could tell us, today you have skippers of longliners making what in a year - $20,000, $24,000 $28,000, $30,000?

I have met owners and skippers of longliners on the Northwest Coast of Newfoundland who had, each man, a skipper had his longliner which was worth what, $150,000? He had his car. He had his motor home. He could take his trip to Florida. A fisherman, a fisherman? Yes·, a ·-f'ishe~· . So is it too much of a crazy dream to think that perhaps you could make the deepsea · fishery so great and attractive and profitable that it would be the career for a young man, not just to be a teacher.

Today I am told that in the teaching profession you can make up to _- the Minister of Education could confirm or deny it by nodding or shaking his head-you can make up to $30,000, $32,000, $34,000 a year, not perhaps tea~~ing exactly but supervising teachers. That you can do only if you are a teacher to begin with. Can the fishery be made into something to rival any other trade or professiont except perhap~ law, medicine and science, but of all ~he ordinarv ways of making a living, can fishing be made so good as to be thoroughly competitive and to attract thousands of young Newfoundlanders into it?

I wish that the minister would address himself to these two or three points in answering my hon •. friend here and any other speakers who will be addressing the House. I must say, one, ~NO, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine - there are ten, one-third of the members of that side - one, two, three, four on this side - is that because I am so deadly dull a speaker or is it because the subject of fish is so deadly dull? ~my is it? Why is it? Is there any bigger topic we can

April 20, 1977. Tape 1735 RH- 2 MR. SMALLWOOD: talk about in Newfoundland today,except the financial condition of our Province, the financial condition of the government,~vhich is a little less than the financial condition of the Province, short of that is there anything greater we can talk about than the state of the fisheries and the prospects this Province has for its future? aowever, it is one·. thing to be a backbencher. It is another thing., I have found- this is one of my discoveries~ it is one thing to be a backbencher, it is another thing to. be a Premier.

As a Premier you can call your Cabinet together, your colleagues in· the Cabinet,and every word you ·say is heard and is listened to. You do not have to be a dictator. You have to be a leader. And if your colleagues think that.you are the man who lead them to victory and will do it again, they will listen carefully and respectfully to what you say, -a?dyou can get things done. If you are a backbencher, what can you do? You can make speeches. That is all you can do. ram not used to it.

I am used to making speeches, yes, to tell what we have done·, not advocate that this be done or the other thing be done, that you should do this or someone else should do that, _ ~s Premier you make speeches, when you do make speeches ,announcing what you have done, what you have decided to do, what you are about to do. And it is quite a different story when you sit here and you have seven or eight members on the government side and four on your own side

April 20, 1977 Tape 1736 LB-1. !-!P .• S}( .ALL1·100D : and you talk about the greatest problem confronting our N~vfoundland people today and they. !i-re-t:just wishing you would shut up,and they are ~~shing you would shut your mouth MR. LUNDRIGAI.'l: That is not true _at .all. . __ _ ~ .• S¥ALLWOOD: That is not true? __ -MR • LUNDRIGAN: . . _ Ev.!!rvbod-v here wants to hear ___ .vou. ~. SK4LL vTOO!J: Yes, but everybody, how many are here? That is the point. Right nOl-7 t!-te last rninut e, Oh, yes - SOME RON.

MEMBERS: - · Oh,- oh~ · ~.SYALLWOOD: The hon. member I mow, the hon. minister has just come in, the hon. member for Grand Fal!s, ~inister of rndustrial and Rural Development. If I could nto be Premier of Ne.....foui:ldland I would be torn between my ambition to occupy the position presently occupied by~the hon. member for Grand Falls,and the hon. member for St. Yary's the Capes. NR. · DOODY! _ .. ___ Y_ou would not b~ too anxious to say that next li'!'i.~PY. . -. ¥F .• S¥~WOOD: That would depend on whether I wanted to be popular or unpopular.

If I wanted to lose every last bit of respect and ' love and affection of the Newfoundland people,! woul~ take the ministry of Finance.! would not hesitate to do it. I can tell the hon. gentleman that either he will end up the most respected,even revered minsiter in the present government,or the most hated and despised. He will end up res~ected and re~ered,that may take ten or orenty years to bring about·. but- will end up, he ~..rill end up· the ... most respected and revered minister on that side of the House today if he brings down a budget - and ~r.

Speaker, I am not under the rules, I cannot debate a budget 'Y7hich has not yet been brought down. I cannot debate the budget.- I can say this broadly and ~enerally that if he brings do~m a bac~et that I can vote for, conscientiously vote for, if he brings down that kind of budget his name will go d.own in histo-ry as a great minister, as a great benefactor, _as a

April 20, 1977 Tape 1736 LB-2. YR. S:M..ALL Hoon: vote for he ~vill go co'Wt'l - what is it - reviled, unhonoured and unsung. However, I do hope the minister of fisheries will take ~vhat I have said with so~e little seriousness and perhaps in his closing the debate will deal ':nth one or t1·70 of these points. Thank you, l'r. Speaker. !~. SPEAKER : Ron. ~inister · of Fisheries. ~- • W. CARTER: }fr. Speaker, 1 ~vant to thank the hon. member for Twillingate for his very kind reference to myself and certainly I hope I can live up to the confidence that he has pia~ed in ~e.

Ee has asked sorne very trnportant auestions with respect to joint ventures in the future direction in ~ich the fishing industry is goin~,and I shall endeavour within the next thirty or forty minutes to provide some answers. First· of all,~r. Speaker, I should maybe give a few statistics with respect to the fish catches, the total allowable catches that have been set by Ottawa in the area referred to by the hon. member, areas known in the IeNAF circles as being 2J and JKL,which takes in,I believe,from Cape Chidley in the north np to probably Cape St.

Francis, or may be even a little further south,in the sout9-.So,Yr. Speaker, Maybe ·~I could circulate these figures1 ~r. Speaker,the 1977-quotas -for codfish especially within the 200 mile li~its were established by ICNAF. ICNAF,of course, is an international body made up of seventeen fishing nations 6£ the world, those that have in many respects traditional fishing rights within the north west Atlantic. ~~en hon. members receive this table they will see that for 1977 in the matter of cod the total allowable catch that was established by ICNAF, I presume on

·~ April 20, 1977 Tape 1737 JM- 1 1. MR. W. CARTER: the advice of their scientistS-; - was in the order of 162,000 metric tons, The Canadian fishing effort in that area for cod to 1977 was estimated to be 67,750 metric tons. ~. S}fAU't•lOOD: Was it 162,000 or 160,000? ~. W. CA..ltTER: I am sorry. 160,000 tons. MR. ROBERTS: Metric. MR. W. CARTER: ~[etric tons. Leaving ~a surplus that was subsequently allocated to various foreign nationals for 92,230 metric tons. So to sum up that figure, :!r.

Speaker, 160,000 tons was the total allow- able' catch designated by the scientists and by IOTAF, that is of cod, 67_,000 will be taken by the Canadian efforts thereby leaving a surplus of 92·,000 tons approximately. MR. ROBERTS: ~7~000 was all inshore? MR. W. CARTER: No, that would be- Yes, mostly inshore and probably a little offshore. MR. SMALLWOOD: If the minister will allow me f The remarks that -' he is making will be in·Hansard to be read by the historians,but the map will not be.

When he says that the total allowable catch I of cod for this year, just this year is 160,000 metric tons,and that Canada shares 67,750 and others 92,000, when he says that what he is talking about is the areas shown on the map as ZJ, 3K and 3L~~~~ ... as the map will not be printed in Hansard,I take it I am correct in saying that is beginning in the North off what? MR. W. CARTER: Off Cape Chidley,pretty much I think. MR.. SMALLWOOD~ . . .... . .,o, no. 2J is well below Cape Chidley, MR. W. CARTER: Probably Cartwright. MR.. S'!-fALLWOOD : No, no, North of Cartwright. Where about is it? It is arotmd Nain, is it?

All the way South to South of Cape Race that is the sweep - Cape S t . ~~ry' s, Cape Race, North to about 'N'ain. ~ • ~'1 • CARTER: That, ~r. Speaker, is the ICNAF area defined as 2J, 3KL.~\s the hon. member said, probably slightly North of - .: Nain to South of Trepassey or Cape St. Mary's, that area. ~. Speaker,

April 20, 1977 Tape 1737 JM- 2 !1R • iv • CARTER : that of course says that 100,000 tons have been given to foreign effort, to .foreign nationals.,of which Canada >:-rill receive practically no, indeed no visible benefits, I am not ·aware of any benefit that is accruing to Canada as a result of that ,92,000 metric tons being given to foreign countries. !'!R. SMALLWOOD : May I interrupt the minister 1 please? Hill they in fact in 1977, does the minister think that they will in fact, the foreigners,t~~e the 92,000 metric tons? ~1R • ~·1 • CARTER: I think they ~vill, ~r.

Speaker, and the danger of course is they just might t~~e more than 92,000 metric tons. MR. • SMALL ~roan : Hill they take that? MR.. W • CARTER : I . am sure they will. Yes. MR. SMALLWOOD: Then will Canada take the 67,000? MR. W. CARTER: Yes, it will. It will take certainly close to 67,000 and I submit that it will take pretty well all of that quota,67,000 tons,included in which is the 6,000 tons,by the way, that we have negotiated with the West German Trawlermen's Association. MR. • S¥...ALLWOOD : Well that is Canadian. MR. W. CARTER: That is Canadian. That comes from the Canadian quota. Mr.

Speaker,·so of the 160,000 metric tons of cod in that area that we have just defined the only benefit that ~rill derrive to Canada, the only economically motivated condition that is attached to any fish is that which will be · derived from the 6,000 tons that the Newfoundland Government and Ocean Harvesters and Fishtsry Products have negotiated with the Hest German Traw1ermen's ·- --- - · . Association. -51x thousand tons, which meant 2,400 tons of

April 20, 1977 Tape no. 1738 Page 1 - ms HR.. W. CARTER : fillet were landed in Harbour Grace, half of which will be processed in Harbour Graca· · tn th7 Ocean Harvesters plan~, and the o~~er half will be processed in the l1arystown plant owned by Fishery Products. I am told that the 2,400 hundred pounds of :fish that will be landed in Harbour Grace will provide employment for maybe three or four months for probably 150 people. DR. FARRELL: Twenty-four hundred? MR. 1-1. CARTER: How ~uch? Twenty-four hundred pounds - HR. NEARY: Tons. MR. W. CARTER: -or tons rather of block fillet.

Of course, the same sitsation prevails in Marystown. Another 2, 400 tons will provide another 150 jobs for Newfoundlanders~for two or three months of the year. MR. SMALLWOOD: Doing what? HR. W • CARTER: Filleting, deboning the fish, thawing the fish out, removing the bone - MR. ROBERTS: It is partially processed - MR.. w. CARTER: - freezing it, repackaging it and ~eezing it. }ffi.. SMALLWOOD: It is beaded and gutted at sea and frozen. MR. w. CARTER: And frozen. MR.. SMALLWOOD. And then defrosted and filleted ashore. MR.. ROBERTS: It is filleted at sea. MR. SMALLWOOD: What is correct? MR. w.

CARTER: No, the ships that are catching the fish, Mr. Speaker, have large factories on board. Tbey caught the fish, headed the fish, removed the inside, the gut, filleted the fish, froze ·it in blocks - HR. 5rfALU100D: And froze the fillets.in blocks. MR. T,J'. CARTER: Yes. Landed the fish in Harbour Grace, distributed half of it to Marystown and half to the Ocean Harvester plant in Harbour Grace where now it will be thawed, reprocessed, debon2d - I am sure the member for Hermitage can follow me very well - deboned

April 20, 1977 Tape no. 1738 Page 2 - ms MR. ROBERTS: That is the pin bone. MR. ~-1. CARTER: The pin bone removed, the V bone or pin bone, repackaged, frozen and then sent back to West Germany. MR. ROBERTS: Repackaged in similar packs. }:fR. W. CARTER: Some.will be in - I think it is called the one and five pack - is it? - the smaller consumer pack, some will be in block form. MR~ ROBERTS : Will the minister permit a question, Mr. Speaker? MR. W. CARTER: Sure. HR. ROBERTS: I thank the minister.

My question is this: What percentage of the labour - if we take at a value of a hundred the normal amount of labour that is involved in taking a fish that has been caught and making it into the final product as it leaves Newfoundland.- what percentage of that labour is done on board these factory ships and what percentage is being done on ·shore? In other words, you know, is the process of taking out the head and the gut and if you wish the rough fillet, whicn is what is done at sea -as I understand it, is that fifty per cent of the total labour process or is it a higher or lesser value? MR. W.

CARTER: It might wt::ll be fifty per cent, Mr. Speaker, but I think the fish would have to be headed or at least the gut would have to be removed. I sometimes think we should maybe stop referring to fish as being headed and gutted and mabye say eviserated. It might sound a bit bettet .than gutted. MR. ROBERTS : It is an honourable Newfoundland phrase. MR. ~-1. CARTER: All right. But the fish would normally be gutted at sea. I am told that the business of filleting it, especially by machine,does not require that much labour. Maybe the hon. member foT Hermitage can correct me here.

But the business of thawing it eut and deboning the fish, the labour would probably equal that whic.~ would take place on board of the ship or .<:lose to it.

April 20, 1977 Tape no. 1739 Page 3 - ms HR. W. CARTER. But certainly I am not suggesting, Mr. Speaker, that they 1977 joint venture is the end-all. I am not suggesting that it is tqe type thing that we are going to be involved in for the next - MR. S'H.ALLWOOD: · It is not the morn. MR. W. CARTER: That is right. ·rt was a one shot pilot operation, and we have learned a lot from that operation. ! am not sure that the people who are involved in that joint venture are making any money this year.

And to answer the question asked by my friend fran LaPoile, the fish is caught by Germans, landed by the Germans on board their factory ships, gutted, head removed, filleted, frozen, landed in Habour Grace. It is then accepted by the plants. The company that will be doing the final processing and the owners of the fish,. Nords.ea,. _ a West German company, have negotiated a per pound price for filleting.

I understand that the price the West Germans are paying the ~NO companies 1 the West Germans will be paying the two Newfoundland companies involve4• ----- . - ... ·--- ·- Ocean Harvesters,Fishery Products,for the processing that they will be undertaking in their

April 20, 1977, Taoe 1739, Pagel-- apb • !1R. W. CARTER : respective plants. I am not sure if I should say this or not, but the amount that is being paid per pound is in excess of twenty cents. I believe it is around twenty-one or b1enty-two cents a pound. HR. SHALL~V'OOD : That is over and above the cost of catch~ng the fish and processing it on board and then getting it to the market? MR~ N. CARTER: The net - !1R. STRACF .. AN: Who-owns the fish from the point of catching to the point of distribution back into the European market? Who owns the fish?

At any time at all does _it . belong to the companies of this Province? MR. W. CARTER: No. The fish is caugh _t by Germans, it is landed as German fish, it is processed and taken back to the country from which the ship originated. ~-m. STRACP'.AN : But for t'tven ty- seven - MR. W. CARTER: But there is a reason for·that. Maybe I can continue. MR. STRACF..AN: Yes. MR. W. CARTER: As hon. members probably know there is a 15 per cent tariff in the EEC countries,and if that fish were landed as Canadian fish and processed as Canadian fish - MR. S!·'!ALLWOOD : Pay a duty. MR. W.

CARTER: - and exported to Germany or to Europe as Canadian fish 1 then it 'tvould be subject to a 15 per cent tariff. r·ffi. STRACHA~l: But it could be bought here and sold back to them and ~~en exported. MR. Ttl. CARTER: No. no. It would still be subject to that 15 per cent tariff. Any fish exported into the EEC countries by Canada is"'subject to a 15 per cent tariff. Ne have asked the Canadian Governnent to 4846

April 20, 1977, Tape 1739, Page 2 -- apb MR. N. CARTER: try and renegotiate that tariff because it is one of the -stumbling blocks that is now preventing us from taking advantage of what we think is going to be a very lucrative market for fresh or for frozen fish products in Europe. MR. SMALL vlOOD : I .f the German ship sold the . ..__ f1sh to a Newfoundland processor and the processor processed it and t...i.en sold it back to the German,i'rhat difference would that be from the German buvina it - -' from a processor and it never was German fish? ~·Tould it not be equally dutiable? MR. r11.

CARTER: It would be dutiable, Hr. Speaker, on value added. For example, even on the present arrangement, even on the present joint venture arrangement there is a tariff and the tariff, of course, is based .on value added. I think the han. gentleman will understand t...'lat lingo as \'lell. 'i'lhatever value is added to the fish by virtue of its being processed in Canada, on that amount t:_he:·_c_oi:mtry W !f~)ia~e to pay a 15 per cent tariff. There is one encouraging sign, Mr.

Speaker, inasmuch as t"tV'O countries .,Iceland and Norway, bot...i. of \V"hich are exporting large quanti ties of fish to the European Common Market countries, have managed to negotiate a reduced tariff. Indeed, instead of paying lS .per cent tariff on ~'leir exports to Germany, they are only required to pay a 3 per cent tariff.

We are hoping that in tirne,maybe a year, maybe a couple of years, hopefully not that long, that Canada ~·lill be able through its negotiations \·ri t!1 Gatt and the EEC countries, will be able to renegotiate ~~e tariff and maybe get it do\V"n on a level wit..~ that now being paid by these t";o/o countrie _s_ to ~Tb..i~h I have just referred. Certainly if that happens, well then I think that there

April 20, 1977, Tape 1739, Page 3 -- apb MR. 1'1. CARTER: ~vill be opened up to Canada a very, very important, a very lucrati~le market. Because European people are fish eaters. They eat a lot of fish. In fact, they probably consume four or five times as much per capita as that cons~~ed by the average North American. Consequently, we are very, very encouraged by the prospect of being able at some point down the road, hopefully not too far, to.be able to enter that very. lucrati,,e and very interesting market. The other questions raised by my friend from ~villingate ('·•r .. ~ . Small•.Nood) , ~1r.

S!)eaker, had to do with the Hamilton Banks and the fact that this is where a lot of fish congregate and~! suppose,in certain areas spa'm. The ·Hamil ton Banks are being referred to as the mother lode, as_it were, the spa~Nning ground of the fish that would normally be caught probably on the Eastern coast of ~1e,vfoundland and Labrador. Certainly that is why it is awfully important that every possible precaution be taken by the Government of Canada and by ~~eir scientists in establishing t~e total allowable catch in that area.

And that is what prompted us to send a telegram some weeks ago to the Minister of Fisheries in Ottawa in which we expressed st>me-concern ·with respect to the total allowable catch that was established in 1977

~arch 20, 1977. Tape 1740 RH - 1 MR. W. CARTER: and at the same time expressed concern as to exactly what acount would be allocated ~y ~anada to foreign countries in 1978. Maybe, Mr. Speaker, I could _ circulate a copy of this telegr~ for the information of hen. members. Is there a page here? All right, so we can do that later. The hen. member.for Twillingate(Mr.

Smallwood) made reference or at least expressed some concern with respect to the future attitude of fish plant owners and if in fact they might just take advantage of _,1 the so-called joint venture concept, the concept of having foreign nationals catch fish within the 200 mile limit, whether fish plant owners would take advantage of that situation and maybe find some way around hav~g to buy or build or at least own ships of their own and provide crews fo~ those ships. Now I do not think that there is any chance at all of the plants being able to by-p .ass ,_as it were, the building of their own ships.

They are certainly acquiring ships of their own and crewing them by llewfoundlanders. If I thought for a moment, Mr.

Speaker, that this would become a way of life in future and ~ that maybe our fish plant owners were to adopt that kind of a philosophy in that they would in fact as a matter of expediency try to get around the problem of having to buy or build ships and to man them by employing foreign ships with foreign crews, if I thought for a moment that there was even a remote possibility of that ha~penL~g well then I would have no part of it and I would condemn in the loudest voice possible, in the strongest way possible 1 any company that would undertake to embark on that kind of a programme.

At least in another two months, by the end of June ,canada, Canadian scientists and officials of the Canadian Government 1 will be sitting down with member nations of ICNAF in countries to whom Canada has certain bilateral agreements at which time they will be establishing the total allowable catch· for 1978. That exercise~which is a very im~ortant one' will be taking place sometime between now, I think, and about the first

April 20, 1977. Tape 1740 RH- 2 MR. CARTER: of July. They will sit down and on the basis of information that .has supplied to them by their biologists and scientists and people who are -supposed to know •Nhat it is all about, they will determine exactly how much fish will be caught within the 200 mile limit for 1978. It might well be, Mr. Speaker, that the allowable catch for cod in the Northern areas will be an amount equal to that which has been designated in 1977 as being the total allowable catch.

So let us assume for a moment, let us assume for a moment that the total allowable catch for 1978 will be identical or at least close to that of 1977. Let us assume that the Canadian fishing effort will not increase from 1977 to 1978 which means ~~at we will be catching approximately SL~ty odd thousand tons. Again the foreign countries will be given a license to harvest another 100,000 tons of fish because that fish which is in. excess of the amount that can be caught by Canadian effort must be declared as a surplus.

Under the te~s under which the 200 mile limit was ·declareq 1consistent with the terms and conditions that have been laid d~~ by the bilaterals that have been agreed be~een Canada and five countries, Russia, Poland, Norway, Portugal and Spain, bilaterals between these countries and Canada1 give those countries the right to fish the stocks ~~at are surplus to the Canadian fishing effort.

March 20, 1977. Tape 1741 RH- 1 MR. J. WINSOR: Would the minister permit me to ask him a question? As is. pointed out you,are talking about the total of Canada's share. Ho~ do you stack that up with the ~act that the boats are coming in no~ ~ith far less than they can actually catch for the simple reason that it is not there? Stern trawlers that can carry five to six hundred thousand pounds are coming in with less than 20,000 pounds aboard. N~ _yoU. say you think they will catch Canada 1 s share of the cod. It does not look like it right now.

So if they do not catch it,you are still going to give the foreigners more. This is probably why they are sneaking in over our grounds and looking for some of our fish-because they are not catching. that much either. How do you add that up with what you are just saying. It does not stack up in my book. They are not catching the fish. You say you think they will catch their share. The boats are landing far, far less. MR. CARTER: Canadian or foreign efforti? MR. WINSOR: Canadian. They will not catch. their Canadian effort not their quota because it is not there. It is not there for them to catch. MR.

CARTER:- I cannot really follow you. MR. WINSOR: Well the boats are currently not catching ·the cod that they could catch if it was there. If the cod was there they would not be coming in with 20,000 pounds in a large stern trawler. MR. CARTER: Yes, right. I am glad you asked the question because obviously it needs some clarification. MR. WINSOR: It is a bit confusing. MR. CARTER: Yes, it is like apples and oranges, Mr. Speaker. You have o¥o different sets of circumstances.

As the hon. member knows probably better than I do that it has become uneconomic now for fish plants operating say from the South Coast to undertake a directed codfishery on the Grand Banks. It has become uneconomical. Ships go out and they spend days and days upon days fishing, exerting efforts--atsubsta~tial costs to the

March 20, 1977. Tape 1741 RH- 2 MR. CARTER: companies and they are coming back in half full. Indeed the average landing, the ave~age potential landing of the average Newfoundland deep- sea trawler- and we have I think about eighty-seven altogethe~.- the average potential landing, the catching capacity of that boat, that ship on a yearly basis is about seven million pounds based on, I believe, .. around ~n_tt to_ twenty-five ships per yea~.

That would be the average catching capability of that ship when in fact these ships a~e now landing Hith three and a half million pounds a year per trip on an average which means ~~at the ships are only operating at half capacity. So the question is a very obvious alld very legitimate one. How come/ How can we talk about giving foreign countries surpluses of fish that is obviously not there? Of course he is right. There are no surpluses in the areas where our offshore fleet would normally fish. We are not talking about surpluses, Mr. Speaker, on the Southern Grand Banks or the St.

Pierre Banks or the Burgee Banks. We are talking about surplu~es that ~-1ould be in the Northern waters where the Newfoundland fishing fleet is unable to operate because they do not have the ice reinforced capability. Very few of our ships ever fish, say, in the Northern areas, Northern waters. Some have gone up there and tried to fish. But the damage that had been caused to their ships has made it uneconomical and indeed very dangerous for our ships to try, even attempt to penet~ate those waters.

We are not discussing surpluses or indeed using chartered ships in areas where the Newfoundland ships would · traditionally fish or indeed in areas where they are only capable of fishing. We are talking about charters and foreign landings, surpluses in an area that is inaccessible to the Newfoundland fleet during the times of the year, three months, January, February and March, when fish is very plentiful in that area and when it congregates in that area and makes it quite easy and quite economic to harvest. ~1R. 'WINSOR: Sir, your quota~· Your are talking about 3K and 3L. MR.

CARTER: Some of these are in the South. MR. WINSOR: They are t~aditional grounds. MR. CARTER: Some of these are in t~aditional grounds,

April 20, 19 77 Tape no. 1742 Page 1 - ms Hr. W. Carter. Mr. Speaker, but even though that is the case -and I will admit that 2 J and 3 KL does extend South to maybe beyond Trepassey, beyond Cape St. · Mary's. But the ships that we are talking about do not fish in that area. The factory ships that are being used this year by the Wes~ GermansJI do n~t sup~ose they have ever been South.intervening South of the rim of the Hamilton Banks Shelf. These ships do not operate in the Sou~~ern waters.

They are built at considerable expense to fish in ~~e ice infested waters of the North and certainly it would not make sense at all to have these ships fishing,say,in the areas of 3 Lor maybe even as far South as 3 K. This year the fish that they caught ' and landed in Newfoundland was caught right on the edge of the Hamilton Banks, slightly over the edge I am told MR. J. WI!tSOR: There is a danger there also. MR. W. CARTER: Yes. But, Mr. Speaker this, like I said, is not going to be a Newfoundland way of life. It is not the end-all. It is not going to be there in perpetuity. It was a one-shot pilot operation.

MR. FLIGHT;_ MR. W. CAR'!ER: The thin end of the wedge. It is not the thin edge of the wedge at all. It was an experiment. We learned a lot from that experiment. And I do not think we will be entering in any more such experiments in 1978, because we have now what we think would be a much more practical solution to that problem. We started off by saying that this was a one-shot pilot operation.

Indeed when we learned that the Canadian Government were contemplating giving other joint ventures to other provinces, Nova Scoeia, Quebec, we learned that they were about to enter into joint venture arrangements with certain other companies in one case a Spanish company, in another case a German company called Nordstern. We objected violently to Ottawa and suggested that there is no need of

~!arch 20, 1977 Tape no. 1742 Page 3 - ms MR. ~-~ • CARTER. nothing to do TN.ith it. Our advice is not sought and consequently ~1ey act on their own, and I hope on the advice of their experts - MR.· S TRACH.AN : Would the han. minister permit a question? . MR. W. CARTER: Yes. MR. STRACHAN." Is it not true that the quotas are set by the biologists, in other words, the scientists ~vho suggest to government~ Are you trying to ~ply that the federal government are responsible for it~ The federal government accepted the figures given to them by the biologists, and these are scientific data.

It is not a political decision. MR. W. CARTER: Given by whom? MR. STRACHAN: ay the biologists, by the scientific personnel. ~m.. W. CARTER: That is right. That is what I am saying. MR. S TRACH.AN : So it is not a polticial decision. It is made on scientific data. MR. W. CARTER: I am not suggesting. I said a moment ago that within t'.No mont..i.s Canada, officials of the government, will be sitting down with their scientists and biologists and will be determining 'What the allowable catch will be for 1978. I am not suggesting that it is a political decision. I would feel much more insecure if I thought it were.

There is only one consolation that hopefully the scientis~s or at least the catches will be established on the basis of sound info-rmation given by scientists without any political ramifications at all. That is the only hope. If that is not the case well then we might as well pack up and go home b~cause if you allmv the politicians in Ottawa or indeed anywhere o~ in Newfoundland to be given that kind of authority then I would say we are in real trouble. But, Mr. Speaker, the allowable catch for 1978 will in all possibility be on a level with that of 1977.

That will be around 160,000 metric tons in that particular area of that particular species, cod. We are not content to· see that 100,000

April 20, 1977 Tape no. 1742 Page 2 - ms HR. W. CARTER. two or three joint venture~, and why destory an additional 8,000 tons of fish if in fact we can learn the same lesson by catching 6, 000 tons. MR. J. WINSOR: _!!_ y~~ - h~y_e __ !e~rned _a _lesson y~prC?v~d . a p_p_int. MR. W. CARTER: We have learned a lesson and and we have proved that there are some points of improvement. Mr.

Speaker, getting back to what I said a moment ago, within a couple of months 1 Canada will be establishing the total allowable catch for 1978. ~-le have wiFed Ottalva, and we have said, Look, we are very concerned, and we are expressing the concern of our fellow Newfoundlanders with respect to the establishment of quotas especially on the Hamilton Banks. The telegram that I just circulated to the House points out I think pretty well exactly what our position is in that respect. We have said that if - do not take any chances.

If you are not exactly sure where you stand, if there is any doubt at. all about the capability of the stocks in that area being able to sustain that kind of a harvest. and be given a chance to replenish,well then give the fishermen of Newfoundland and Canada the benefit of the doubt and do not take any chances.

We have told Ottawa in no uncertain terms that if in their wisdom or otherwise they decide to put a total ban on foreign fishing in that area that we will support them. rndeed, we have suggested to them that if there is any danger at all in allowing foreign effort or in allowing that type of a quota well then they should give some very serious thought to putting a total ban on foreign fishing efforts on the Hamilton Banks. The quotas, Mr. Speaker, I repeat, are not established by the Newfoundland Government. The TAC is not established by Newfoundland.

The Minister of Fisheries of Newfoundland has no more to do with the establishment of the total allowable catch ~vithin Canada's 200 mile limit than the man in the mean. we have absolutely

April 20, 1977 Tape no. 1742 Page 4 - ms Mr. ~.J. Carter. ton surplus go to foreign countries without some benefit coming back to our Province and our people. And unless we can provide the necessary catching effort one way or the other, either by way of charter - hopefully not, but maybe purchasing boats or some such way, some legal arrangement - well then we will forfeit our right to that surplus. We wi.ll forfeit our right to that surplus stock, surplus to the Canadian catching effort up to the total allowable catch.

And that is why we have been going ·around Europe looking for ships trying to identify countries and areas where ships can be obtained at very short notice. The question has been asked by our critics as to why we are not talking about building ships in Marystown. Why are we not embarking on a building programme to provide ships of our own built by Newfoundlanders thereby providing a lot' _of jol;ls ·for a lot of ~e:vfoundlanders in that area. o; course, that is the answer in the long run. That is the answer in the long-term. But there is no such thing as an instant boat building programme.

You cannot today embark on a boat building programme that is going to be in place by June 30, 1977. MR": -J. WINSOR: (Inaudible) - MB::w:-·CARTER: ! beg your pardon? MR. J. WINSOR: I am not arguing - MR.. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, that is something over which I have no control . Certainly our feelings are well-known and if the fish stocks are not there and if Ottawa then insists on -establishing a TAC that is in excess o_f what it should be, well then I am afraid there are certain people that must accept that responsibilitY;

April 20, 1977 Tape 1743 JM- 1 MR. W. CARTER: and the people are not in the Provincial Department of Fisheries or indeed are they in this House. I would be quite happy if Canada were to put a ban maybe on foreign efforts,but I am afraid that is not going to be so. Canada has made certain commitments without our kno~v-ledge or con~ent, has made certain commitments to certain foreign countries whereby they are required to allow those countries to harvest stocks that are surplused to the Canadian fishing effort.

Canada is a responsible country in a global village and I do not think we could - If the scientists say that there are prospects for the harvesting of X number of tons of fish I do not think we could sit on that fisb and just ignore the scientific data on which that decision is made. I do not think Canada could do that. Indeed I am not sure I would want Canada to do it.

But certainly if there is going to be a surplus to the Canadian catching effort as it exists today well then we have a responsibility to ensure that we provide the necessary catching effort to enable us to catch part of what would oth. e~v-ise be declared as surplus. Of cours~ we know that in Newfoundland today we have a lot of fish processing capabilities. We have a large number of fish plants around the Island most of which are operating at probably less than thirty-five per cent of their operating capacity.

We have to find some way to provide fish to these plants to make sure that they can become more viable and that they can be operating at as near full capacity as possible. -- --- -- - - - - MR. J. WINSOR: Would the hon.minister excuse me?When the minister says thirty-five per cent of capacity ,you are talking about total capacity and not normal ca~acity I believe. ~!R. ~;r. CARTER.: Total capacity. ~·7e have - :1R. J . WTiiSOR : Total capacity would be three eig~t hour shifts where they are normally running one in most places. MR. W. CARTER: Newfoundland today, Mr. Speaker, has the capacity

April 20, 1977 Tape 1743 JM- 2 }ffi. r,;. CARTER : to process on an eight hour day at 250 days a year, 1. 2 billion pounds of fish. ~-le are capable of processing 1200 million pounds of fish per year, eight hours a day1 250 days a year, one shift. ~-le are in fact processing I .think in the order of 400 million, less than forty per cent of that figure, probably thirty per cent.

And I have been told by inshore fish plant operators, plants that would normally be capable of all year round operation that it is absolutely impossible to make their ./ operation viable or to place them in a position of being able to pay proper price for fish from fishermen, impossible for them to become good, corporate citizens in the area in which they operate or to make ~ny worth-whi~e contribution to the economy of the Province in their area operating at that capacity.

Indeed I talked to the ~rincipals of a large fish processing company in Germany just a few weeks ago, a few days ago and I asked him, What would he do, what would his co~any do if ther had a fish plant that was operating at less than fifty per cent capacity.? He shot back without even a moments hesitation and said, " We would close it up. We would not keep that plant operating not twenty-four hours." Indeed that company which is one of the most progressive companies in the ~.rorld I suppose, Nordsea, one of the biggest in Europe,last year with a gross sal~ of 0.5 billion dollars, that company - MR..

ROBERTS : Is - that-iie-arliy subsidized? ' - - . Mi.. ~J. CARTER: No, not heavily subsj ,~:!.::ed, as a matter of fact no subsidies at all. No subsidies at all. That company would not conside .r operating a plant, would not keep it open, would put the padlock on door if it were operating at less than eighty per cent of its capacity.

And yet here ~.;e are in Newfoundland thinking that we can operate fish plants around the island, in fact all together probably I do not know - fifteen or eighteen or t:t.;enty plants that are capable of year round operations, We think that we can operate these plants successfully in a viable

April 20, 1977 Tape 1743 JM- 3 MR.. l-1. CARTER: way at about thirty-five or thirty per cent of their operating capacity. It is absolutely ridiculous ~d. I sul)pose that if the owners of t!!ese plants today were to follow the normal business ~ractices that one would expect that not too many of them woiald remain open. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, we d.o not have a quorum. MR. SPEAKER.: Quorum call.

April 20, 1977, Tape 1744, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER : I would ask the Clerk of the House to count the House,please. A quorum is present. The hen. the MinisteJ;. ·of · Fisheries.-- ~1R • \•1. CARTER : Mr. Speaker, we were talking, I think, about the allowable catches and the fact that scientists will be determining soon what the allo'li7able catch will be in 1978. I think that I should go on record now as saying that I have certain fears with respect to the advice that maybe Canada will be getting with respect to the fish stocks.

I have certain fears about ju~~ how valid some of this advice might be, and that is why I would be ·quite prepared, as I said earlier, to support the federal government if, in fact~ they saw fit to maybe cut back in 1978 on the TAC. Because even if ' they were to reduce the TAC by- and by that I mean the total allowable catch - if they were to reduce it to 100,000 metric tons, if they were to bring it back from 160,000 to 100,000 that would s.till be more than the Canadi~ fleet ·could harvest.

In fact that would be 40,000 ton extra fish that could be landed in Canada with that kind of a very dramatic decrease in the total allowable catch. That might be the way to go. Of course Canada must be able to justify that kind of action. Canada must be able to justify any reducti~n · in takes in the TAC because of these bilaterals that we have with ~~e countries that I