LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wedneaday, 1 May, 1985. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . MINISTERI AL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. A. PENNER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to table for the information of members - it will be ci rculated to each member in advance of my Esti mates be ginning this afternoon - some supplementary information for that legisla tive review of the Estimates of the Department of the Attorney­ General. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. A. PENNER introduced, by leave, Bill No. 32,

An Act to amend The Real Property Act; Bill No. 33,

An Act to amend The Registry Act; and Bill No. 34,

An Act to amend The Special Survey Act. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Prior to Oral Questions, may I dir ect the atten tion of honourable members to the gallery where we have 35 students from the W.C. Mill er Collegi ate under the direction of Mr. Schmidt. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Rhin eland. There are 60 students of Grade 9 standing from the Charleswood Junior High School. They are under the direction of Mr. Lemer. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Charleswood. On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afternoon.

Also prior to Oral Questions, I have a statement for the House. SPE AKER'S RULING MR. SPEAKER: On Thur sd ay, April 25th, the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek, raised a matter of privilege regarding an incident which occurred on April 23rd. Following the advice of several members, I took the matter under advisement in order to investigate further. I have carefully perused Hansard and consulted with several persons who were present at that time. The naming and expulsion of a member is a serious matter, and the circumstances surrounding the incident deserve the most careful and detailed researc h.

Even if the expulsion is only for a short time, the naming remains on the member's record and must be conducted in accordance with the proper procedures. lt is clear that the proceedings of Tuesday even ing were somewhat boisterous and that the debate generated considerable heat, leading the Chairman to termina te the proceedings of the committee and report the disorder to the House. The decision of the Chairman cannot be questioned and his judgment must be respected. The events which followed showed an uncertainty on the part of everyone present as to the correct procedure to be followed.

The confusion is not surprising since the last time there was a similar occurrence was in 1971. In order to avoid any future confusion in similar cir cumstances it would therefore seem prudent that guidelines be prepared which would specify the correct procedures to be followed. There is no doubt that the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek was not given the opportunity to withdr aw his comments or make a satisfactory explanation prior to being named.

Whether this opportunity is necessary where the offence has been committed in the committee is not made clear in Beauchesne, but our Rule 14(2) concludes with the words, "as if the offence had been committed in the House." This provision, and the de sir abil ity of consistency, indic ates that the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek should have received the opportunity to withd raw his admitted remark. In speaking to the matter of privilege the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek noted the omission of the opportunity to withdraw his remarks, but did not specify what privilege had been breached.

Thus, there is prima facie evidence of a breach of order in that there was a departure from the normal operating procedures of the House. There is no prima facie evidence of a breac h of privilege that would give the matter precedence over other matters on the Order Pape� · ORAL QUESTIONS Mentor - Salary of CEO MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I dir ect a question to the Min ister responsible for Manfor. Last Thursday the Min ister took as notice the question of personal items that Mr.

Sweeney, President and Chief Executive Officer of Manfor, could charge on his expense account. Mr. Sweeney was reported in last Friday's Free Press as hotly denying charging cigarettes on his expense account, saying that that's very dirty pool. In view of the denial on the part of Mr. Swee ney, has the Min ister yet determ ined whether or not Mr. Sweeney has indeed charged such items on his expense account? 1450

Wedneeday, 1 May, 1985 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Business Dev elopment. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Speaker, I did raise the matter with the chairman of the board and had his assurance that the matter would be reviewed in due course. MR. D. GOURLAY: I direct a further question to the same Minister, and ask the Mini ster whether Mr. Sweeney has the right to charge these kind of items on his expense account? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Speaker, I should make it clear that both the chairman of the board and myself, and I believe all members would agree, that in terms of the contract and what is viewed as a reasonable expense, that those kinds of items would definitely not be deemed to be reasonable items. MR. D. GOURLAY: We ll, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to table a copy of an expense account that I receiv ed, signed by Mr. Sweeney, Indeed Indicating that he has charged cigarettes and other personal items to his expense account that has been approved and I would like to table this in the Legislature. MR. SPEAKER: Question. Manfor - Contract of Mr.

Bourgeois MR. D. GOURLAY: A further question to the Min ister responsible for Manfor. Last week the Minister advised the House that Alan Bourgeois is still employed at Manfor. lt is my unders tanding that Mr. Bourgeois had a contract with Man for that expired on March 14, 1985. lt provided Mr. Bourgeois with a retainer for services at the rate of $7,000 per month, paid in advance, which is $84,000 per year, with a priority call on the services for 15 days per month plus expenses and office, etc. Can the Mi nister advise the House If this contract has been renewed and, if so, for what period of time? HON. J.

STORIE: Mr. Speaker, I believe it was ce rtainly the intention of Manfor to continue with that contract. I can get back to the member with specific information about the renewal dates and so forth. MR. D. GOURLAY: I wonder if the Min ister can indi cate to the House whether this is a full-time employment position or is it still a part-time position. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Speaker, it is a full-time position. Boundaries re flood agreement MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Min ister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Member for Swan River raised a number of issues with the Premier yesterd ay concerning the boundaries in his constituency with respect to the flooding agreement between Manitoba and Canada. Mr. Speaker, before I answer those specific questions as to the way the bound aries were drawn and who was consulted , I should point out to the honourable member that the conditions in which the boundaries were viewed to be drawn Is that farmers had to experience severe flooding of crop land in three of the last five years, with 1984 as one of those years that were in fact being flooded.

That was the criteria on which the basis of the boun daries were drawn up. They were dr awn in a similar fashion tha t the boundaries were drawn for the drought agreeme nt. They were drawn by provincial officials, Manitoba Crop Ins urance officials, in consultation with Federal Government officials, farmers and offici als of the rural municip alities and LGDs in the most severely affected areas. Those boundaries were drawn to deal with only the most seve rely affected areas.

That's not to say, Sir, that there weren 't flooding occurrences in other parts of the province or Indi vidual farmers beyond the most severe areas as is the case and has been the case with respect to the drought agreement. Mr. Speaker, it came to our attention that once the boundaries were drawn that there were conce rns raised by farmers beyond the boundaries as was the case similarly in the drought areas. Having those concerns drawn to our att ention, Sir, the Premier during this interval met with the Federal Min ister of Agriculture and raised this concern.

The Federal Minis ter ind icated that he would in fact consider an exte nsion of the boundaries. Subsequent to that, I followed up with a telex to the Minis ter of Agriculture on March 22nd of 1985 suggesting whether they would be prepared to consider extension of the program to additional areas beyond the area. We did receive a response to the telex on April 19th indicating, Mr. Speaker, and I would just quote the relevant part of the telex, "I am most concerned that if the area in Manitoba were expanded that farmers in areas bordering the Saskatchewan program would expect similar treatment.

In the interests of equit y, it would be difficult to refuse such a request . However, fundin g for an extension of the program in Saskatchewan would need to come from the 1985-86 fiscal year. Given severe fiscal res traint, it would not be possible to fund such an extens ion.

Therefore, I cannot consider an extens ion of the area covered under the Manitoba program, because most of the major problem areas should now be covered , and because of the preced ent it would set concerning an expansion of the Saskatchewan program." That was the position of the Federal Government after our request of them. lt is true, Sir, as the member raised, that there may not have been consultations with municipal offici als in the Immediate area of Swan River, because I belie ve the R.M. of Swan River, there may have been some flooding.

That area was not considered the most severe area In terms of the last three to five years. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Thank you, Mr. Speak er. My question to the Mini ster of Agriculture is: why didn't he consult with local municip al officials in the area affected, which is the LGD of Mountain? Those people 1451

w.dneeclay, 1 May, 1985 were not part of the program in determining the areas to be covered. As I understand it, the local crop insurance people were not also contacted. So my question to the Mini ster, why weren 't those local people Involved in determining the disaster area in the first place? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker , I will repeat to the honourable member again, the officials in the LGD of Mountain, the Crop Insurance Corporation and our staff officials and the federal officials were all involved in determining of the boundaries. MR. D.

GOURLAY: I would ask the Minister again if he can confirm that the LGD of Mountain and other officials from that municipality or local government district were involved initially in det ermining the disaster area? I know that they were involved after the fact . MR. SPEAKER: Question. MR. D. GOURLAY: . . . In signing the forms or verifying the losses. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speake r, I checked with our staff and I'm advised by our staff in the northwest region that consultations did take place between municipal officials ... SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. B. URUSKI: Wel l, Mr.

Speaker, the honourable members can make whatever allegations they wish to make. Consultations took place between staff, both federal, provincial and mu nicipal in establishing the program in a similar manner as they were In establishing the drought areas. However, in the drought area, Sir, the lead in terms of establishing the boundaries was taken by PFRA in consultation with both federal and provincial crop insurance and our staff, because PFRA handled the admini stration. In this program, our staff handled the administration and the consultation took place between, as I have said earlier.

The actual approvals of the application forms certainly were done by actual councill ors in the area in consultation with our staff to determine the actual eligibility to see whether or not there were requests beyond what was considered the flood areas. But, Mr. Speaker, my staff advised me that all municipal officials in the relevant areas were consulted prior to the boundaries being set up. MR. D. GOURLAY: I would ask the Mi nister of Agriculture if he could provide to the House the names of those people who were involved in the local area in determining the initial boundary set up for disaster assistance? HON.

B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I certainly will want to do that and I'm sure the member will be raising those questions when we get into the details of my Estimates. We 'll have staff from the regions in terms of the directors and the like and we will be able to provide that information for the honourable member. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I wish to ask a question of the Government House Leader, as we are very much concerned at the absence of the Premier and seven other Cabinet Ministers from the question period.

Questions are prepared for the question period and approximately half of the Cabinet, including the Premier, are missing . I would ask the Government House Leader if in the future he would raise this issue with the Premier and Cabinet and ensure that a reasonable number of Cabinet Min isters are in the House during question period to answer questions? MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. Members should not comment on the presence or the absence of other members of the House. Federal deficit -

article by R.D.C. Ruhr MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Natural Resources. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, yest erday the Member for Turtle Mountain raised a question with respect to an

article in the Winnipeg Free Press dated April 28th, an

article submitted by a member of my staff having to do with commentary on the national policy on deficit financing. I want to say to the Member for Turtle Mountain that

article does not represent the opinion of the department, lest there be any misunderstanding, that it was written by the ind ividual on behalf of the individual, and that the error as I see it is In the submission of the person's full resu me to the Free Press which was printed, and left the impression perhaps that that Is a statement of public policy on the part of the department. I simply want to refute that because that is not the case.

I have consulted with the department with respect to process and procedures where members feel or are compelled to make their views known, for whatever reason, that they should ·not use departmental titles, letterhe ads, etc., and that If they submit re sumes, they should only submit their personal residence and whatever other titles they have, but not their departmental titles, so that there would be no misinterpretation as to the source of the information that is being conveye d. A more formal message Is going out to senior officials with respect to that.

Chairman of Board of MTS - repl acement experienced in telecommunications MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pemblna. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . My que stion is for the Deputy Premier. Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that a recent member of this House has now re signed as Chairman of the Board for the Manitoba Te lephone Syste m, I would ask the Deputy Premier if in the search .for a replacement 1452

Wedneedar, 1 Mar, 118$ Chairman for the Board of MTS whether they are searching for an individual who has previous experience in the telecommunications field so that that person might be able to offer further guidance to the board of directors and to the Telephone System? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, when this Minister and this government has decided on the person who will be appointed to chair the Manitoba Telephone System Board, the announcement will be made in due course. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary question to the Minister responsible for the Telephone System. Yesterday in the committee the General Manager of the Manitoba Telephone System indicated future problems the system may be experiencing. My question is rather relevant as to the qualifications the government is seeking in recruiting a new chairman, as to whether they will seek out an individual with experience in telecommunications to help guide the system through this perceived rough time that they are facing in the near future. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker, we will be seeking in the appointment of that person someone, first of all, with good common sense; secondly, with the kind of ability that the former chairperson had, to be able to meet and deal with people and problems and defend the interests of the province in having the best telephone system in North America. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, I take from that answer that the Minister is offering the House and the people of Manitoba the assurance that the appointment of the new board chairman to the Manitoba Telephone System will not be an appointment purely based on political patronage.

A MEMBER: Are you Irish? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I hesitate to answer that rather frivolous question with a flippant answer, and I won't. What we seek as a government are appointments of people who are able, who are honest and sincere, have good common sense and will fight for the interests of Manitobans. Premier Richard Hatfield - assistance to MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. A. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Deputy Premier and ask her whether, in addition to Ontario, any government employees took a leave of absence to assist their French language ally, Premier Richard Hatfield, in the recent by-election in New Brunswick, and also to acquire experience for Manitoba's June election - that is losing experience. Mr. Speaker, I assumed the government would spring to the defence of its allies, but apparently they're not. MR. SPEAKER: Question. Air Canada - use of MR. A. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I would then direct a question to the Minister of Labour, and ask him whether it is government policy to use Air Canada as an airline? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, ohl MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. A. MACKLING: lt is the policy of this government to use the best transportation system available for any particular occasion in time; and where that warrants, yes, we use Air Canada. We use CP Air. We use Pacific Western Air. We even resort to using our own government air services from time to time where that is appropriate.

MR. A. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, on those rare occasions where you do use Air Canada, and given that there is now a strike taking place, has the government instructed its employees to not cross picket lines during the period of that strike? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I know of no formal MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker, I know of no formal instruction of any kind that has emanated from any one of my colleagues, including the Premier's Office, in respect to this, but I know that members of the Civil Service belong to a very efficient and a very concerned bargaining unit. I am sure that their concerns respect the legitimate interests and concerns of the airline employees who are now on strike. Provincial Parka - fees to cottage owners MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Natural Resources.

I wonder if the Minister could indicate whether there have been major increases in the fees for cottage lots for owners that have cottages in the provincial parks. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. S. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I believe the existing fee structure has been there for some period of time, but there is a review under way at the moment. 1453

w.ctnnday, 1 May, 1985 MR. A. DRIEDGER: To the same Min ister, can the Min ister indi cate whether that review, those potential Increased fees are going to be in effect for this year or whether that's for next year? HON. S. URUSKI: Well, Mr. Speaker, when there is a new policy or a change in fees we will announce it. I don't know when that will take place, or if it will, but any changes will be announc ed in due course. MR. A. DRIEDGER: To the same Mi nister then, can he ind icate whether any notices have been sent out for this year? HON. S. URUSKI: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I would assume that any decisions that have been made over the last period of months has been conveyed to the general public. Unless the member wishes to be more spec ific then I can't really respond to him. Deputy Ministers re spring campaign MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Business Dev elopment. HON. J. STORIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Ye sterday the Premier took as notice a number of questions from the Member for Pembina. Whether those were actually questions or despicable accusations is open to interpretat ion.

However, one of the allegations made by the Member for Pembina was that somehow the Deputy Mi nister of the Department of Busine ss Dev elopment and Tourism was shirking his responsibility In not attend ing a meeting of the International Coalition. Mr. Speaker, in the first place, that body and the individual's membership and duties on that body are of a voluntary nature. In the second place, Mr. Speaker, an accusation was made that somehow the member was involved in partisan activities in dereliction of his duties.

I think the record has been made clear, both by the president of the organization, touted by the member, and by the fact that the member was with other staff in my office doing his duties, as he has from the day of his employment. Mr . Speak er, I think it's unfortunate that such unsubstantiated, such fabric ated allegations are promoted by members such as the Member for Pembina. I find that insulting to members in the House; I find that insulting to the civil servants; I find that insulting, particularly for indi viduals who aren't here to defend themselves, and the Member for Pembina, Mr.

Speaker, should apologize to this House, should apologize to the member if he has any class at all. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker , would the Mi nister care to indi cate to the House whether the chairman of the International Coalition did announce to the meeting that his Deputy Mini ster would not be there because he was working on a spring election campaign? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Speaker, I have not spoken to the president of that organization. There is a press report in the paper in which he denys that, Mr.

Speaker. lt is cer tainly not the case that the Deputy Min ister ever contacted or spoke in such a manner to that individual. The Deputy Min ister called more than a month ago to Inform that individual that he would not be atten ding because, Mr. Speaker, he was promoting a work shop in the community of Selkirk for the business people, the Chamber of Commerce and the Council in that community, for their bet terment. He was doing that, again, Mr. Speaker, on his own behalf and in a voluntary way.

The kind of maligning that occurs by this particular member is insulting to us all, and particularly insulting to the Civil Service. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the Minis ter. Would the Minis ter, instead of using seco nd-hand and third-ha nd information and innuendo, check the statement made by the president at the meeting In Grand Forks before he makes accusations in this House about people imputing motives? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Speaker, I have spoken with the ind ividual who is involved in this incident, and I trust the integrity of that indi vidual a lot more than the individual across the floor. Vicon - finalization of sale MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin­ Russel l. MR. YL McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Speaking of apolog ies, I have a problem. I have a question for the First Mi nister, the Mini ster of Co-operative Development, or the Mini ster of Ind ustry and Tec hnology. They're not here, what do I do? Mr. Speaker, I will address it to the Deputy Premier.

Can I ask the Deputy Premier, Manitoba co-operative unions repres enting employees of Manitoba Co-op Implements, credit unions, banks and many small businesses across rural Manitoba have been waiting weeks for the finalization of the negotiations which could lead to Vicon Inc. establishing a new farm implement manufacturing plant in our province, can the Deputy Premier advise the House has the agreement been finaliz ed and, if not, when can we expect it to be finalized? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I will take that as notice. MR. W.

McKENZIE: I would ask the Honourable Mi nister if she would give us, espec ially the small businesses across rural Manitoba and the co-operatives that are offering farm Implements that are made by that firm, are really concerned about the finalization of these agreements to see if their contracts are valid and where they stand. I wonder if the Deputy Premier could give us a definite answer by, hopeful ly, next week. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Labour. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member knows that the Min ister of l.ndustry, Trade and 1454

Technol ogy, his staff and staff persons from the Department of Labour have been working with the proposed purchasers of the CCIL plan,t and the bargaining agent trying to work out arrangements so that that plant will continue in operation . Those negotiations are not simple; they are complex; they are taking time. But rather, Mr. Speaker, than the situation being as the Member for St.

Norbert rising in this House and asking me to confirm that the plant had already been moved to Saskatchewan, which was misleading the members of this House, that has not occurred, and both the company and the union are trying to work out arrangements to continue that operation in Manitoba. I resent the kind of questions that are asked in this House, misleading questions that try to destroy the integrity of both the company and the union involved. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The honourable member knows that he should not accuse another member of this House of misleading others.

The Honourable Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker . . . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, if the words I used indicated that the honourable member misled the House, I retract that, and say that the premise he put in his question was false and therefore may have tended to mislead some members of the House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin­ Russell. MR. W McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Labour, I'm sure, destroys any possible hope that we had for agriculture in this province by those allegations. MR. SPEAKER: Question. MR. W.

McKENZIE: Can I ask the Minister of Labour, does he or this government understand what an important role small business, the farm implement business, plays in the economy of our province? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The understanding of a Minister is not the proper subject of an oral question. Would the honourable member wish to ask a question seeking information? Negotiations with China re surplus products MR. W McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, can I ask the Minister again another question for the Deputy Premier?

Further to last week's discussions with Ambassador Vu Zhan, the Chinese Commission er, the Government of Manitoba and the Government of Canada regarding the development of potash industries in western Manitoba, the Russeii-Binscarth area, it's evident from what I can gather that east-west trade is the key to these ongoing negotiations. MR. SPEAKER: Question. MR.

W McKENZIE: Can I ask the Deputy Premier, have you or your government included Manitoba sugar as surplus agricultural product in this province as one of the items that be Included in the package, especially since the Ambassador has mentioned in those talks that food items could be one of the key factors in the finalization of this package? MR. SPEAKER: I have an idea that is a frivolous question, but if the Honourable Minister of Agriculture has an answer he may give it. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, I think the premise of the question is not frivolous, but the information that the honourable member has provided this House, that somehow 10 percent of Canadian production by Manitoba producers is excess to Canadian needs. Mr. Speaker, the honourable member's premise is frivolous in terms of suggesting that somehow there is surplus of sugar products for export out of this province. Mr. Speaker, I think the honourable member should check his facts on the matter.

The fact of the matter is, Sir, what is causing the depression in the sugar industry is the low world prices that have caused the collapse of the pricing in the sugar industry and caused the problems of producers and workers because of imports, not because there is a surplus in this country. The question with respect to our discussions with the Chinese Ambassad or, Sir, we certainly are in discussion with him insofar as the potential of agricultural trade, the potential for breeding stock, the potential of the frozen embryos, all those kinds of technologies that Canada and Manitoba can play a role in.

These are the areas that we have been exploring with them, as well as of course our discussions on potash. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a matter of privilege with respect to the accusation by the Minister responsible for being in the hip pockets of union­ organized leadership in this province on behalf of the NDP. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please.

In order not to interrupt the proceedings of Oral Questions, which is of considerable interest to all members I know, would the honourable member wish to raise his matter of privilege following Oral Questions? The Honourable Member for Roblin-Russell. Negotiations with China re surplus products MR. W McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, further to the Minister of Agriculture then on the same subject matter, can I ask the Honourable Minister , the possibility of exchanging primary products as well as finished products from this province, was that not included in the negotiations with China? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. 1455

WednHday, 1 May, 1985 HON. B. URUS KI: Mr. Speaker, those kinds of discussions that are under way pre sently are exploratory discussions. As the member kn ows, members of government and staff have visited and we are endeavouring through the Canadian Government to extend as many trade opportunities as we can to production from this province, whether it be on the finished state or in the technology state. We are exploring whatever avenues that may be open to us. Brandon University act MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is to the Mini ster of Education. Has the Minister of Education had an opportunity to review the proposed Brandon University Act? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: No, Mr. Speaker. The act presently is under discussion between the Brandon University Board and the Universities Grants Commission. MR. B. RANSOM: A supplementary to the Mini ster, does she expect that act will be reviewed and introduced Into this Legislature during this Session? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Speaker , it will be clear which acts in Education will be introduced in this Legislature when they are Introduced. Manitoba Labour Board - support staff to Dept. of Labour MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Labour. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, the other day the Leader of the Opposition asked me a question in respect to any change in staffing in relationship to the Manitoba Labour Board as it relates to the department. I answered that as far as I knew there was no change in the staffing practice that existed before, and my answer remains - there has been no change and none intended. St.

Pierre parents re - additional English-speaking programs MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Mini ster of Education concerning the complaints of French-speaking parents in St. Pierre and their call for more English and less French. Can the school division structure its Francais Program of 75 percent French to a lower figure of 50 percent or less, because of student problems in learning and speaking the English language? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Speaker, the decisions that are being made and the questions that are being raised by the community are unde r the authority of the school division. lt is up to the school division under the law to determine the programs, and of course we hope that will be done, with discussions and consultation with parents. In this case, there is an issue where there are a number of parents wanting one program and a number of parents petitioning and wanting another.

Of course, these are very difficult decisions for any school board or any elected body to resolve. lt's my understanding that discussions are under way bet ween the community and the division. The board has agreed to look at the points the community have raised and to deal with them by a certain point in time. I'm sure we all hope that they will resolve it to every body's satisfaction. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, the Minister didn't answer my question, so I'll try to focus on it.

Is it a government requirement that the 75 percent figure be in place, or is that a maximum so that the div ision has some flexibility about the precise proportions that they wish to select? HON. M. HEMPHILL: There is flexibility with the division, Mr. Speaker. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker , I would then ask the Minister whether she has had any reports from other school divisions with similar problems, that is, students learning broken English and broken French rather than achieving a proficiency in bilingualism? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Speaker, of course this is something that we don't just depend on second- or third-party information or people saying that they think that the quality of the program may not be too good. We do testing and serious examination to make sure that there is no loss with students studying the French language or any other language. Our surveys and our studies show and they confirm what the national surveys and studies show, that is, that students taking other language programs are not deficient or do not do any worse in terms of other programs and that include s English.

So there may be some problems related to student ability in learning English· or other courses, but there is no indication or no statistical information that suggests it can be related to the learning of language. Those students who are taking French programs and other heritage language programs do as well In their other subjects as do those who do not. Inspections of hen flocks - precautions re disease MR. SPEAKER: The 'tmourable Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I have a question for the Minis ter of Agriculture. lt is my understanding at the present time that there are inspectors travel ling throughout the province inspecting flocks of chickens to comply with the new terms on the reductions in the hen flocks. I wonder if the Min ister can give us the guid eli nes for the precautions taken by those inspectors to ensure that disease is not carried 1458

WednesdaJ, 1 May, 1185 from one farm to another. What precautions are being taken? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member should be aware that there is no reduction in the existing flock numbers by the premise of his question. The existing producers who have the exemption of 500 birds, there was no reduction at all on existing producers. The change that the marketing board made was on the starting up of new producers.

So there was no change to existing producers, but In terms of how the board carries out its Inspections, I am assuming that they use the protection of the changing of rubber or plastic boots, as normally one would in entering premises if they In fact are checking. But I'll take the question as notice and just find out what procedures the boards do use in terms of those inspectors. But the premise of his question was not accurate, Mr. Speaker. MR. H. GRAHAM: A supplementary question to the Min ister .

Does a producer have the right to refuse an inspector to come on their premises until they are satisfied that proper sanitation methods are followed? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I'll have to take it as notice, but I believe the regulations that are in place today are the same as were in place when they were in government and previous governments in terms of the program. But I will ascertain what the rules are In terms of whether they can. I believe some of the inspections - there is legislation, both federal and provincial, in terms of the authority of inspectors to enter upon property.

Children's Aid Society - regional ce ntres - satellite offices MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: My question is to the Mini ster of Community Services. I'm wondering if the Minister can advise, now that the Children's Aid of the City of Winnipeg has been divided into six regional centres throughout Winnipeg, whether or not each division will be establishing satellite offices. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Mr.

Speaker, each region will have a central location, and they are enabled to set up resource centres in the area which may, In some cases, be new premises; in others, they may just link up with people who are already working in the commun ity, but who are prepared to work as a working co-operation. MR. C. BIRT: Can the Min ister advise whether each new region will be establishing satellite offices; and if so, how many offices; and thirdly, will they be using employees of the existing Childr en's Aid structure or will there be new people hired for those satellite offices? HON. M. SMITH: Mr.

Speaker, if the member means a central office for each region, if that's what he refers to as satellite offices, yes, each region will have a central cluster of offices. If he is referring to satellites within each region beyond this central office, the practice will vary within the region. They have a certain budget. They are being encouraged to develop preventative and community support services within their budget and each will follow a slightly different pattern. 1 did report some weeks ago In detail the current situation of staffing, redeployment and so on.

I'd be happy to make that available to the member again. Basically, the same numb er of staff are being used and redeployed. Beyond this year, each region will have to operate within their budget and so they may vary in their staffing pattern, but the change has been accommodated basically within the existing budget. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The tim e for Oral Questions has expired. MATTER OF PRIVILEGE MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As I indicated earlier, Sir, I rise on a matter of privilege with respect to the comments made by the Minister of Labour to date, and I will conclude, Mr. Speaker, with a substantive motion. Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Labour indicated that I had misled the Hous e and that I had used false information with respect to the subject of Vicon locating outside of Manitoba. I refer to Hansard, Mr. Speaker, Friday, March 8th, to which the Minister is referring. I asked this question on Page 13, Mr. Speaker. I said, "My question Is to the Minister of Labour.

With respect to the specific effects of the labour legislation passed by this government at the last Session, and about which we raised serious concerns, could the Minister advise whether Vicon, which purchased Co-op Implements will, as a result of an impasse with the union, as a result of the labour legislation passed by this government, whether Vicon will be locating its head office and new plant in Saskatchewan resulting in a loss of jobs for Ma nitob a?" Mr. Spea ker, that was purely an informational question that I was asking. I went on later, on Page 14, to say, "Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the union leader clearly Indicated the real problem by saying, in this province the law of the province is if you buy a plant - and that's whether it has failed or not - you inherit the present collective agreement in force, and that's the problem." Now, Mr. Speaker, that question was based on the reported comment of the leader of the Steelworkers' Union involved in the Vicon plant. My questions were either informational or were based on a reported statement of the union leadership. Mr. Speaker, I reject the accusation that I used misleading information or false information. 1457

Wedneadey, 1 May, 1985 Mr. Speaker, I would therefore move, sec onded by the Member for Sturgeon Creek, that this House hereby request the Min ister of Labour to withdraw his incorrect allegations that the Member for St. Norbert misled the House or used false information. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, I think the alleged breach of privilege here is, Sir, not a breach of privilege, but rather a point of order.

The use of unparliamentary language, Si r, is referenced in Beauchesne - (Interject ion) - I'll come to that in a moment - Is referenced in those citations referring to unparliamentary language as being points of order, Sir. If the accusation being made in this motion Is that the honourable member is in some way in contempt of the House, Sir, then it could be extended to be an argument for a breach of privilege. I submit, Sir, that since privilege is really the law of contempt of parliament, such is not the case in this instance.

I do recall, Sir, although I've been unable to locate the re ference, allegations in questions from members opposite In early March of this Session to which the Mi nister of Labour referred, that there was a strong likelihood or indeed in some cases, although I don't re call the specific date of the reference, certainly a strong likelihood and In some cases an alleged ce rtainty that a decision had been made with regard to the Vicon plant to go to Saskatchewan.

Sir, the fact of the matter is that no decision has been made and to present that kind of information to the House, Sir , and you may wish to peruse Hansard to find those exact references, it may be the Minister of Labour can assist us In that regard.

Sir, part of the problem, and it occurred earlier today - and I wish to bring it to your atte ntion, Sir, as force fully as I can for the benefit of members opposite - relates to the failure of some members in this House to observe our citation in Beauchesn e's Fifth Edition No. 362 which requires members to determine the validity of allegations that they bring before this House, and when, Sir , allegations are brought before the House that something is happening, that layoffs are occurring, that somebody's off preparing for an election despite their Civil Service status, or that a plant is moving to Saskatchewan, that's what creates the problem.

To accuse the Min ister of Labour then to be in breach of privilege because, Sir , he says that that kind of information misleads, I wouldn't suggest, Sir, that it deli berately misleads, but it certainly misleads out of ignor ance. Sir, Cita tion 362 Is deliberately designed by those parliamentarians who contributed a great deal more to this than anyone in this House, and to this process, designed to prevent that kind of thing disrupting the processes in this House. Sir, I submit the member has raised an important point, although I submit it is not a que stion of privilege, an important point of order.

I think it is a due caution to all members to begin to observe that citation more accurately, and we would not have had the exchange we had between the Min ister of Business Deve lopment and Tourism and the Member for Pembina today, an exchange earlier this week between the Member for Elmwood and rumours of hundreds of layoffs presented to this House and, Sir , the whole question of Vicon which has been raised today.

Again, Sir, I hesitate to use the word I hear from my rear of innuendo but certainly, Sir , when a member presents facts to the House which are not checked, they then, Sir, become an allegation without substance and they, Sir, then are misleading, not through deliberate action, but cert ainly misleading through ignorance. I think the Min ister of Labour's suggestion in that reg ard, if I may treat this as a point of order, with regard to unparliamentary language, Sir, Is accurate in tha t regard.

I refer you, Sir , to the listing of unparliamentary language that is provided, and the reference to the word "misleading" on Page 112, Sir, In the list of appropriate references that have been ruled parliamantary. The determination of the word "misleading" in the past in Ottawa, Sir , has been whether or not it has been with deliberate action. I don't think the Mini ster of Labour suggested that, in fact, when he was challenged on whether or not he was suggesting it was deliberate, he withd rew any such suggest ion and told the House that had not been his intention, and he did not use the word deliberate.

So, Sir, I submit, first, there is no breach of privilege; secondly, the appropriate point for the member to raise Is a question of unparliamentary language which is appropriately a point of order , that the language is not unparliament ary, Sir, but that all members would be well-advised to heed the caution of Citation 362. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek to the same point. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, on the same point, the House Leader has described a lot of other questions in the House and Is trying to, I would suggest, Indi cate what questions are allowable and what questions aren 't allowable In this House which, Sir, I believe is your decision. Mr. Speaker, my colleag ue, to bring it back down to what actually happens, is asked a question in this House that said whether this Industry would be moving to Saskatchewan or not. The Mi nister of Labour a few minutes ago stood up and said that my colleague, the Member for St.

Norbert, misled the House and said that the company was moving to Saskatchewan or Regina. Mr. Speaker, that is a false . . . And then he gets up and makes an apology. He made an allegation which was absolutely wrong, and it was proven wrong, and he should, Sir, apologize for doing so. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourab le Min ister of Labour to the same point. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, on the day, March 8th, the Honourable Member for St. Norbert asked the question, and he's referred to the question, and I would like to read the question in full, and then I will comment on it as I have subsequentl y. "Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. My question Is to the Min ister of Labour. With respect to the specific effects of the labour legislation passed by this government at the last Ses sion, and about which we raised serious 1458

Wedne.day. 1 May. 1985 concerns, could the Mini ster advise whether Vicon, which purchased Co-op Implements will, as a result of an impasse with the union, as a result of the labour legislation passed by this government, whether Vicon will be locating its head office and new plant in Saskatchewan resu lting in a loss of jobs for Manitoba?" Mr. Speaker , I gave answer to that question, saying that I had basically heard nothing of that, but what I say, and what I said earlier today, is that there is a suggestion in the question that implies a state of fact, implies two false states of fact.

The first one is that the company Is moving to Saskatchewan; second ly, and this I hadn't dwelled on earlier, that the proposed move, if there is a move, resu lts from labour legislation which we passed . The honourable mem ber was Attorne y-General in a government that had the same labour legislation that Vicon and CCIL are dealing with - successor rights in respect to union contracts. Now no labour legislation which we passed in the last Session had affected the problems that Vicon and CCIL and the union were dealing with. So, Mr.

Speaker, when I say, out of Ignorance or for whatever reason , the honourable member puts this kind of a question people, perhaps not in this House, but people who report such questions, believe that the honourable member is stating as fact, first, that there's a move and, second ly, the problem is with the legislation that was passed . Both of those things were wrong, Mr. Speaker, and the honourable member should have known that. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Ye s, Mr. Speaker, thank you for recognizing me.

I made reference to the distinction between a matter of privilege and point of order with regard to unparliamentary language. I would refer you, Sir, to Citation 323(1) , I had not referenced that earlier. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I thank those members who have offered their advice in order to check precisely on what has been said. I will take the matter under advisement and check Hansard. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I believe there may be a predisposition to dispense with Private Members' Hour today.

If we have leave to do that, I would then move the Supply Motion, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: Is there leave to dispense with Private Memb ers' Hour today? Leave has been granted. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We will be in Estimates in the House in the Department of Health, and we will be starting the Department of the Atto rney-General in Committee Room 255. I would therefore move, Mr. Speaker, seconded by the Honourable Attorne y-General, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Ma jesty with the Honourable Member for River East in the Chair for the Department of Health; and the Honourable Mem ber for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of the Attorney-General. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - ATTORNEY-GENERAL MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santo•: Committee, please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will be dealing with the Estimates of the Department of the Attorney-General. We shall begin with a statement from the Honourable Minister resp onsible for the departme nt. Mr. Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson, my statement will be brief. After three successive years of major changes, fiscal 1985-86, for this department will be primarily, by no means exclusi vely, a year of consolidation and departmental reorganization in order to attain greater efficiency in program management, program delivery and program evaluation.

With court amalgamation, that is the amalgamation of the Court of Queen's Bench and the county courts, the creat ion of the Family Division of the Queen's Bench, the start up in February of this year of the Law Enforcement Review Agen cy, and the introduction on April 1st last of The Young Offenders Act, April 1st of the year before, all of this behind us the focus now is rather more on the strengthening of existing programs than on the Introductions of new ones. In order to improve the management, the delivery and the evaluation of our programs, the following steps are being taken.

First of all departmental re organization - and I would refer members to the chart which is found in

Schedule 1 to the Supplementary Information, and that gives some indication of the reorganization which is taking place and which is almost complete. lt's comple te In terms of Its structural set-u p, not yet complete in terms of the hiring of the key players.

So just by looking at the chart, you'll note that we have a flatter, a somewhat more decentralized, organizational structure with six major divisions reporting through a senior manager to the deputy and ultim ately, of course, through the deputy to the Attorney-General and most of these are headed by an ADM, so that we have the Justice Division with an ADM, and that's Norm Larsen, in place effective August 1st, last. The Legal Services Director position is vacant and has been bulletined, interviews have taken place, and that will be filled shortly.

The former Director of Legal Services, Civil Litigation as we called it then, now being the ADM Legislative Counsel, so we have as the next major budgetar y unit, the Legislative Counsel's office and members will note that the Legal Translation unit, 1459

Wednesday , 1 May, 1985 which was formerly lodged with Cultural Affairs, is now under the direction of the ADM Legislative Counsel; that's a unit presently of approximately 11 persons with an addition of four other persons to take place during the course of this fiscal year. By far the largest courts division in the structure is the third one, the Courts Division, and mem bers will note on the chart that we give an approximation of the bud get and the SYs in each one of these units, and that is headed up by Marvin Bruce, formerly Director of Court Services, now ADM Court Services.

The Property Rights Division is one we retain the traditional title of Registrar General and that includes the Land Titles Offices and the Personal Property Security Regist ry. Finance, we maintain the title of Executive Director as the head of that unit, Pat Sinnott, and we have a Criminal Justice Division headed by an ADM, John Guy, and those are the six main budgetary units. As we go through the Estimates, we have indicated how these units, in fact, are now structured, and this is a bit of a change from previous years. MR. C. BIRT: Is that the head of the Land Title's Office? HON. R.

PENNER: Ye s, the Registrar General. Still dealing with the general qu estion of reorganization, program management and program deli very, we're placing considerable stress in this year on developing a Resea rch, Planning and Ev aluation unit. Reference to this may be found in Reference 3 to the first sect ion. We'll be looking at that shortly, but this we think to be a very Important unit.

You have the delivery of programs in a whole number of areas and they go on sometimes for years without someone, who is not part of the delivery of that program, taking an objective look at what its goals are, whether or not it's meeting these goals, and whether or not the deliv ery of the program can be improved. Negotiations are pres ently under way to retain for one year a consultant with impressive credentials in program evaluation in order to establish this unit within the department. Furth er, with respect to program management delivery and so on, Systems Dev elop ment continues.

The Systems Dev elopment consists of computerization within the Land Titles system; the further development of the Manitoba Justice Information System; the development of a computerized record keeping system for The Young Offenders Act in the introduction of quick law. Let me just say a few words about each one of these.

With respect to the Land Titles comput erization schedule, the General Registry was the first unit that we had earmarked for computerization, and in fact I can announce here that tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock we will be officially launching the computerized G.R ., General Regis ter, and staff savings in the system associated with that computeriza tion are four staff years. · But of far more importance - not tha t that is unimportant - we estimate that the computerized system which will speed up transactions through the land titles system enormously , will in fact save the general public as much as $1. 5 million a year because of a shorter time required for bridge financing as transactions go through.

The use, inci dentally, of the compupter search is free. lt's a user-friendly system and it will be off the launching pad tomorrow morning. With respect to the Manitoba justice information system , that development is continuing. We are also, with federal funding, developing a record keeping system for the YOA, The Young Offenders Act. We expect to end up, as both of these systems dev elop, with an integrated system which will operate internally across courts and exter nally with other services, notably corrections and the opera tion of the Remand Centre.

Quick law, the other system 's development to which I ref erred, is a computerized way to enable legal staff to search through the reported cases to find cases that have relevance to a particular legal issue that has come up in a civil or criminal trial. There is presently now in the new court building, which was opened up at the beginning of this month, a quick law terminal, and members who are inter ested are invited to go across.

You will find if they have a key word, let's say assessment - I use that because it was the key word last night - they want to find out something about assessmen t, what reported cases there have been, they type in the word "assess ment." If they've misspelled it, the computer tells them to look it up in the diction ary, then turns to a dictionary page for them and gives them the right spelling. They get it right this time and out will come a printout of what is called the head note of the leading cases - the leading cases being because the computer doesn't think quite as efficiently as lawyers like Mr.

Mercier and Mr. Birt - those cases In which the word Is used most frequently. So it saves an enormous amount of time In legal research because a lawyer with some training, by looking at a head note can tell whether or not that case is relevant to the issue the lawyer has in mind. So systems development is taking place and some resources are allocated to that in this year. With respect to staff additions, I would draw members' atten tion to an attachment In the kit which, first of all, gives a reconciliation from'84-85 voted to staff changes during the course of'84-85 and then subsequently.

At the moment I'm just commenting on the fact that related to this question of management ef ficiency evaluation, some of the staff changes In this connection are the addition of an admin istrative assistant for the dep uty, the addition of a budget analyst to the finance and administration branch, additions to the staff of the law enforcement admin istration unit.

Let me just say parent hetically about this last Item, we have found since we retained a Director of Law Enforcement Services, Charlie Hill, a year ago In November, that we'r e much better able to get a handle on the largest single component in the budget of the Department of the Attorney -General. That's the RCMP cost which is now in excess of $28 million; that's a huge amount. We have found that the RCMP, of course, are very responsive as we work with them on the budget. We have been able to, with the staff that we have, get a much better handle on that budget, on the allocation of resources.

With some strength in there, we expect to do even a better job. That, Mr. Chairperson, deals in the first instance with the first point that I am making about the primary 1460

Wednesday, 1 May, 1985 emphasis being on consolidation, reorg anization, program management, program delivery and program evaluation. However, we are certainly not standing still with respect to legislation. Let me just touch on three major items of legislation that will be introduced through this department. One is a new provincial Young Offenders Act. I had hoped to be able to introduce that last year, but it required a lot more study and thought than time allowed last year.

I expect to be able to table a bill in this Session. lt will, of course, deal with the methods, procedures to be used in dealing with young persons between the ages of 12 and 18 who are charged with a provincial offence, because the federal Young Offenders Act only sets up a procedure for dealing with young people in that age category charged with a federal offence. Freedom of Information, as I indicated in the House yesterday, that bill is now complete in terms of drafting and is in translation, and I expect will be distributed in the House within the next couple of weeks.

That will be a fairly major program delivery question that has to be resolved. I do not anticipate that a bill will be proclaimed any sooner than from three to perhaps six months after enactment, so that we can complete those steps which are necessary for program delivery. lt may well be the case - I should make note of it here - that the program will actually be delivered through the Department of Cultural Affairs, because that's where the major responsibility for government documents, the Provincial Archives and so on, now rests.

Rather than have responsibility for the handling and processing of documents over time fractured between two departments, it may well be the case that responsibility for the admin istration of freedom on information will rest with that department, although its day-to-day adminis tration will involve responsi bilities of all departments.

Again, in terms of legislation, really, the major thrust of the department this year will be with Charter compliance and, as the members are aware, we have already placed on the Order Paper a first reading of the equality rights, a Statute Law Amendment Bill, which will deal almost exclusively with

Section 15 matters, but we will also be introducing another Charter-related bill which will deal primarily but not quite exclusively with

Section 8 Charter matters, that is, search and seizure matters. So those are the main legislative thrusts. There are a number of other pieces of legislation, some of which have already been introduced for first reading. Anot her, The Transbou ndary Pollution Reciprocal Enforcement Act - what's the name of that one, Gerry? - is being introduced for second reading, but these are by way of amendments to existing legislation rather than new thrusts.

With respect to program changes and enrichment, although again while this may be primarily a year of consolidation and reorganization, we're, as I said a moment ago, far from standing still. In the area of the activities of the Hum an Rights Commission, there has been a backlog. There have been delays in the processing of complaints that are not acceptable, and we are adding alm ost immediately two Hu man Rig hts officers and an additional admin istrative support person to the staff of Human Rights Commission.

We think that this will cut down the backlog to a very great extent, and we are also in the process, or we will shortly be bulletining and hiring a lawyer who will be housed with Civil Litigation but whose prim ary responsibility will be with respect to the Human Rights Commission. What we've been doing for the last two or three years - I believe it was the same with the previous government - is to a considerable extent using outside lawyers.

That will still be the case in some instances, but the Human Rights Commis sion feels it can function better with a lawyer who is regularly used for Human Rights adjudications to represent the Com mission and to give the Commis sion itself advice. In Legal Aid, we have the previous year developed a Legal Aid response unit for The Young Offenders Act. We've been assisted in this with federal funding. The unit consists of four persons. They were previously on term, now, in this fiscal year, will show up as permanent staff. We are also anxious to develop a better response unit for the Family Law cases.

We, over a year ago, entered into an experiment where we had our Ellen Street office concentrated exclusively on criminal cases and that has worked with such efficiency and has been so successful that we are now attempting to develop a specific unit for Family Law because the main work that Legal Aid does is with respect to criminal matters and family law.

As part of being able to set up a more efficient way of delivering legal services in this specialized way, we have taken steps to close one office, the Lasem office, and the staff from that office has been reallocated to the Main Street and Ellen Street offices of the Legal Aid Services Society. We have also - and this is something that the Member for St. Norbert raised last year - in this fiscal year are hiring - we are in the process of doing that now - a new lawyer to conduct a trial program for a year in pursuing maintenance judgments for social assistance recipients.

There has been some question about whether or not this really works to the advantage of the recipients and of government, of course, and rather than leave it as a question we've decided that we should in fact hire a lawyer who will for a year, take nothing but those cases to see how many cases there are and what the net results to the system are. So that is being done. Again there will be in terms of some program changes and program enrichment, further expansion of our principal Native policing programs.

We hope to be able to add through the RCMP unit an additional 10 special Native constables to the complement and that would boost the number of speci als from 30 to 40. These have been very successful in the northern detachments. Indeed I should point out that what we have done is move the specials either on to the reserves, where that has been okayed by the Band Council, or at least imm ediately adjacent to a reserve, so that there is a much qu icker response.

Our special constable programs - and these are not band constables - these are members of the RCMP - are recruited from the Native population, trained in the regular RCMP training facility in Regina, and then placed In a unit that either services a reserve or is located on a reserve. So there will be some expansion there. That expansion, incidentally, is primarily by internal reorganization. We found that when we were able to 1461

w.ctnead ay, 1 May, 1985 add the special constables, that within the system as a whole where there are vacancies in the non-Native establishment, that the RCMP uses those vacancies as staff positions for the Native constabulary.

Furthermore, with respect to the same expansion of Native policing programs, members will note in the grants which are given by this department that for the last two or th ree years we have given a grant to the Dakota-Ojibway Tribal Council for its policing program of $10 0,000 - it used to be 80; then it was 100 - and we have enriched that program on our part by an additional grant of $50,000 to bring the total grant to $1 50,000, and the Federal Government has also greatly Increased its contribution to the same program.

I mentioned in my intr oduction a few moments ago that we saw the launching of the Law Enforcement Review Agency in February. We're not planning any additional resources at this time although a fairly significant number of representations have been made to the Commission, some 50, and statistics will be provided on that. Only 28 of the 50 were adjudged by the Commissioner to fall within the purview of the act. Of these - let me just note at the moment - five have been resolved informally and 23 are still under review, Investigation or conciliation.

A preliminary judgment of the program indicates that it does, as hoped, work very well as a conciliatory mediative-type agency, and that we may - at least for the first part of this year as things presently look - be able to continue without having to add staff. Finally by way of introduction, Mr. Chairperson, let me identify issues which in a sense are still on the back burner but by no means forgotten. I'll just give some examples, all of them within the court system.

We still have to address the problem or the question - I'm not so sure that it's a problem - of the Small Claims Court and that was something again that the Member for St. Norbert has raised from time to time, and I would be happy to discuss it with him. In fact I had anticipated that we would be able to perhaps move on the recommendations of the Law Reform Comm ission and that this might be an opportune time because of the amalgamation of the County Court and the Queen's Bench, but that hasn't been possible given the other priorities which have occupied the time and attention of the department in reorganization.

But we might well consider the question, given that it's quite likely the Small Claims Court will stay as it is structurally at least for the foreseeable future, look again at its jurisdiction. That is the size of the claims that can be litigated in a Small Claims Court, whether that shouldn't move up to something like $2,000 or something of that kind. That could usefully be discussed here or in the House. With respect to courts still, I think there is room for a considerable improvement in Northern services.

We did make a forward step a couple of years ago by the appointment of a resident provincial court judge in Thompson. There may be room for an additional provincial court judge in the North. That is presently under review. There may be room for an additional Crown Attorney in the North; that is also under review. The idea there, of course, being to have resident services in a sense, although one can never have fully resident services in the North, but at least services that don't have to fly up from Winnipeg, located in The Pas or Thompson or Flin Flon, and cut down on the circuits that are flown out of Winnipeg.

Again another thing that is still very much under consideration is to make the jurisdiction of the Family Division of the Court of Queen's Bench province-wide. In my view, it is proving to be an outstanding success in a whole number of ways and I wanted to make sure that happened, that it wasn't overburdened, that it wasn't overdriving its headlights, so to speak, before we expanded the services of the Family Division beyond its present boundaries. That will be looked at during the course of the year.

There is a resource implication to that, and that raises the next issue that is, in a sense, on the back burner and that is the addition of a second master for the Family Court. The master who we presently have, Marilyn Goldberg, is very very good, but is doing an enormous amount of work and even without expansion some relief may be necessary there. But certainly with expansion we woulc;l need an additional Family Court Master to handle all of the interlocutory matters that arise in family matters. So in sum as an introduction, Mr.

Chairperson, I have sought to indicate that while we are looking at increasing efficiency in program management, del ivery and evaluation - and some steps are being taken in those regards - we are moving ahead legislatively and in terms of program changes and enrichment. There is still, of course, lots to do. I suspect that in the Department of the Attorney-General, there always will be. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. The Chair now calls upon the leading critic of the opposition to kindly present his customary reply to the opening statement, if he so desires. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will be brief.

Firstly, I would note the Attorney-General's remark with respect to retaining an additional counsel to attempt to enforce family maintenance orders on behalf of social assistance recipients. As the Attorney-General indicated, this was a matter that I raised during the Estimates at the last Session of the Legislature because it had come to my attention that Legal Aid was not granting Legal Aid certificates to people on social assistance to obtain maintenance orders and to enforce them.

I believe this, as the Attorney-General has called it an experiment perhaps for one year, will result In some substantial cost savings to the public purse as the whole maintenance enforcement system that we established has proved to be. I'm disappointed, Mr. Chairman, that there will be no progress made during this year with respect to increasing the jurisdiction of the Small Claims Court. The present limit of $1 ,000 has been in effect for a significant number of years now, and inflation alone would justify an increase in the jurisdiction of the Small Claims Court.

I think when one recognizes the difficulty that many people have in attempting to force smaller claims because of the lawyers' fees that are involved, they find that the legal costs do not justify attempting to enforce small claims. That's why I proposed at the last Session of the Legislature that the limit be increased 1462

Wadpeed ay, 1 May, 1915 to at least $3,000 and I am disappointed that no action will be taken in that regard this year. With respect to the legislation that the Attorney­ General has ind icated, the major pieces of legislation that he intends to introduce - and he specifically referred to The Freedom of Information Act - I suggest to him that perhaps events of the last few weeks and months would indicate that it's not necessary. I think the opposition is receiving, I would think, almost all of the information that Is available. HON. R. PENNER: I'd rather you get it from other channels, control channels. MR. G.

MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, on another smaller matter, the Min ister referred to a potential saving of $1. 5 million, I think, to users of the Land Titles Office because of a computerized system. Really I don't think that type of saving will really take place. What the purchasers of property will be doing is instead of paying interest to the vendors the interest will be going to the lenders and the mortgage institutions. You perhaps may want to amplify on how we arrived at that potential saving of $1. 5 million, but I don't think it's there. Mr.

Chairman, what I am concerned about and I think is the prevalent view of the vast majority of Manitobans, is that we deal with the Estimates of this Attorney­ General in the fourth Session of this government's term. lt appears to me that there has been a growing disrespect for the administration of the justice system in Manitoba and for law and order. There is a concern that the system has been politicized and there is a concern that many issues have not been dealt with properly.

I'm not going to go into detail with them on them right now, but hopefully we will deal with them in detail as we go through the Estimates. But the handling of the Dr. Morgentaler prosecution, the handling of the Grenada Inquiry Recommendations, the administration of the Human Rights Commission, the administration of Legal Aid, the Law Enforcement Review Agency and others I think have caused concern amongst many Manitobans, and we will hopefully deal with those individual items as we go through the Estimates. Those, Mr. Chairman, are all the remarks I wish to make at this time. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

At this point in time, the Chair now formally invites the members of the departmental staff to kindly take their respective places. Deferring the consideration of Item No. 1, which relates to the Minister's Salary, 1. (a), we shall start with Item No. 1. (b)

(1) Admin istration and Finance, Executive Support: Salaries; 1. (b)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, under this item, could the Attorney-General indicate how many executive assistants or special assistants he now has? HON. R. PENNER: How many executive assistants? MR. G. MERCIER: Executive assistants or special assistants? HON. R. PENNER: I have one executive assistant and one special assistant. MR. G. MERCIER: Could the Minister indicate the names of the E.A. and special assistant and their salaries? HON. R. PENNER: Yes, I could. About the salaries, I'll have to get the information in a moment.

The executive assistant is Val Bingeman and the special assistant is Nancy Alien. MR. G. MERCIER: I think the Minister is getting their salaries. HON. R. PENNER: We'll get that information tomorrow. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister indicate the salary of the Deputy Minister? HON. R. PENNER: The Deputy Min ister Is on executive assignment - I guess it's called, is it? - from the Federal Government. I'll take that as notice and get you the information tomorrow. MR. G. MERCIER: Is the Deputy Minister on a contract of any sort? HON. R.

PENNER: I think the program is called Executive Interchange in which he is still technically on staff with the federal Department of the Solicitor General and we pay his salary at the level that he was when brought here and maintain his benefits.

This is done for a period of up to two years, usually for a variety of reasons that Include: it may be often that an executive or senior manager is only needed for a short period of time - well, of course, that's not applicable here - or that the person moving with family and all from one city to another and not sure that the adjustment will be made and reasons of that kind. I'm happy to say that this particular appointment is working out very very well and we hope that it will continue.

I'm advised that there Is in fact a signed Interchange agreement for a three-year period, and that is an agreement with the Federal Government. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, does that mean the province Is required to maintain the Deputy Minister in its employment for a period of three years? Is it a three-year, no-cut contract? HON. A. PENNER: No, I don't think so. it's up to th ree years, but it's not a no-cut contract. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, was there a selection committee that recommended the Deputy Minister for appointment? HON. A. PENNER: Yes, there was. MR. G. MERCIER: Did they recommend him? HON. R.

PENNER: Yes, they did. MR. CHAIR MAN: Can we have some pace here because the recorder will have some difficulty? MR. G. MERCIER: Who was on this selection committee? 1463

Wedneeci•J, 1 M•y, 1985 HON. A. PENNER: We'll get used to the rhythm here in a moment. The final selection was made by a committee composed of the Clerk of Executive Council, the Premier and myself, I believe, were the three people who were involved. MR. G. MERCIER: Was there a committee further down the line that recommended Mr. Elton, or reviewed the applicants? HON. A. PENNER: Yes, there was a commi ttee further down the line who reviewed the applicants, and at that time the present incumb ent was not an applicant. MR. G. MERCIER: So the Deputy Minister then was not considered by that committee? HON. A.

PENNER: Yes, that's right. That was my response. MR. G. MERCIER: Who was on that committee? HON. A. PENNER: The Clerk of Executive Council, the head of the Civil Service, not the Commission, but Paul Hart, the Civil Service Comm issioner, were two of the people who were on that committee. I'm not sure who else, I'll have to check. MR. G. MERCIER: Could the Attorney-General indicate why he didn't ask that committee to consider the present Deputy Minister's application? Why didn't you have that commi ttee, who I assume made some recommendations, also consider the present Deputy Mi nister's application? HON. A.

PENNER: Ultimately, as the member should know, the choice of a Deputy Mi nister is made by the Premier. That is always the case, and the Premier was thoroughly familiar with the applications that had been made, with the evaluations that had been made of those applications, and with the fact that at that point in time we did not feel that given the com plexity of the department, the problems with which it had to deal, the need for departmental reorganization, that the persons who had applied although of good quality - this is not to denigrate them at all - quite met the bill.

So a further search was und ertaken with the assistance of senior people in the federal bureaucracy, and a number of names were suggested as people who might be contacted for further Interviews. The present deputy was one of those whose name was made known to us. Another person, formerly occupying a very senior position in the federal bureaucracy but subsequently employed by another province, was made known to us. These two persons were intervie wed at some considerable length.

They were both judged to be of great quality, capable of bringing to the department some levels of expertise that were not available in those who had applied; could bring a familiarity with upper level mana gement which was not yet within the experience of those who had applied. They were clearly judged by those who interviewed them, who had connections with the earlier interviews, to be of very great quality, so it boiled down to a consideration of these two persons and ulti mately the present deputy was hired.

I must say I think that everybody who has been connected with the process in any way, either as an applicant or as one who was involved in the selection process, is firmly of the view that a very sound decision was made. I also think that sometimes it is salutary to bring in occasionally someone from the outside who can bring a new perspective to a department that has been under the same management basically, well, in our case, for over 10 years. MR. G. MERCIER: Has the present Deputy Min ister had any practical experience in criminal prosecutions? HON. A.

PENNER: No, not in criminal prosecutions, although he is considered an expert in the criminal law. He, of course, was with the Solicitor-General's Department as a senior policy advisor and worked closely in a number of areas with police and policing with which he is very familiar, and had great familiarity with the RCMP, let me say, its administration structure and indeed the personnel who had worked.

He was primarily the one who had developed The Young Offenders Act and had worked very closely for a period of over a year in not only developing the act but developing some of the agreements with the provinces as to how the act should be administered; had taught criminal law in two universities in both official languages, the University of Montreal and the University of Ottawa, and had done some of the major studies for the Law Reform Commission of Canada on criminal law; and was recognized both nationally and internationally as a criminal law scholar. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, with respect to another matter, there was an Order-in-Council on October 31, 1984 which changed Mr. Guy's salary as Assistant Deputy Min ister from $62,000-some to $67,000.00. I think I had noted previously that Mr. Larsen was originally appointed as an Assistant Deputy Min ister in the range of $67,000. Was this Order-in­ Council passed simply to make Mr. Guy's salary equivalent to Mr. Larsen's? HON. A. PENNER: it's my information that first of all, Mr. Guy is, I believe, a step ahead of Mr. Larsen in terms of salary; that the Order-in-Council didn't come through until that time due to an oversight.

I will check Into it, but it was made retroactive. I think the starting date for both was the same. MR. G. MERCIER: Would they now have equivalent salaries, or Mr. Guy may be a step ahead.? HON. P. PENNER: I think Mr. Guy is a step ahead. MR. G. MERCIER: Which would be more appropriate. Mr. Chairman, could the Mi nister explain the need for the administrative assistant for the Deputy Mi nister? HON. A. PENNER: The Deputy Minister we now have is very deeply involved in the management of the department at every level, as I thin.k a deputy should 1464

be. With the six major budgetary units, a whole number of boards and commissions, the senior management responsibility for a budget in excess of $70 million, his ability to have a hands-on approach which I think has served the department exceptionally well, requires the services to him of an admi nistrative assistant so that the Deputy Min ister doesn't simply become swamped by paper. it's quite common, of course, in departments to have an administrative assistant to a Deputy Minister. Some, in fact, have more than one admin istrative assistants. MR. G.

MERCIER: Was that position advertised through the Civil Service Commission, or was that an Order­ in-Council appointment? HON. R. PENNER: Neither; it hasn't been filled yet. MR. G. MERCIER: Oh, it hasn't. HON. R. PENNER: Yes, it will be bulletined. MR. G. MERCIER: lt will be bulletined, okay. Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could advise where in his Estimates we would consider grants by the department. I know there are very few, but under what item would we discuss, or where are they included there? HON. R. PENNER: Actually, they are very few and they fall under a number of budgetary items.

For example, the grant of $15 0,000 to the Dakota-Ojlbway Tribal Council for its policing program comes under the budgetary unit, policing programs, 04-4(a). But they are very few. Let me just give the Member for St. Norbert what they are and under what bu dgetary units they fall. To the Canadian Provincial Judges Association, an operational grant which has been the same for the last few years, of $3,000; to the Manitoba Association for Rights and Liberties under 04-6(a)(2), that's Human Rights, $25,000; that's been the same for the past three years.

To the Uniform Law Conference of Canada under 04-3(b), $4,000; that's been the same for several years. 1 mentioned the DOTC, that's raised to $15 0,000 from $1 00,000; Legal Aid is shown as a grant but it's just the budgetary operation of a major unit. The only other grant this year which is a one-time only, or at least an infrequent grant to the Canadian Provincial Jud ges Association as an addition to their operational grant, an additional 14,000 because of the annual Convention of the Canadian Provincial Ju dges being held here in September of 1985. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, if those are all the grants for this 19 85-86 fiscal year, then perhaps I would use this area to ask the Attorney-General about a grant that was made to the Charter of Rights Coalition which the Attorney-General announced on March 21s t of this year. I take it that was included In the 1984-85 budget. HON. R. PENNER: That is right; that was'84-85. lt was a special grant. MR. G. MERCIER: Could the Attorney-General indicate who the Charter of Rights Coalition are? HON. R.

PENNER: As the name implies, it's a coalition of various groups, Women in Law - I'll get the other names and I'll get the names of the officials for the member and provide them tomorrow. MR. G. MERCIER: When does the Attorney-General expect to receive the report from the coalition? HON. R. PENNER: I've already received an interim report, and it's presently being studied by our research officer in the department who is working on the

Section 15 bill. I expect to receive a final report In another three months. MR. G. MERCIER: What Is the $2 1,000 supposed to be covering? HON. R. PENNER: First of all, let me say it matches a grant from the Secretary of State, and the total of some 40-odd thousand covers the retainer of a full­ time lawyer, a lawyer working full time and I think some support staff and the rental of an office. MR. G. MERCIER: For how long a period of time would that lawyer be on staff? HON. R. PENNER: The budget that I have just talked about is a six-month budget. MR. G.

MERCIER: There is no intention then to renew this grant after the final report is made? HON. R. PENNER: There is no intention of doing so. MR. G. MERCIER: Will the Attorney-General table the reports from the coalition in the House? HON. R. PENNER: In due course, yes. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, on another matter which I think this is really the only area where I can raise it, the Attorney-General proclaimed on December 29, 1984, The Election Finances Act with the exception of certain sections.

Could the Attorney-General comment on his reasoning behind not proclaiming those sections of The Elections Finances Act? I think that evolves out of the decision that was made in Alberta that certain amendments to the federal Elections Act, which are somewhat the same as our Election Finances Act, violated freedom of expression under the Charter. HON. R. PENNER: That's right, and that is why those sections which we felt might be affected by that judgment were not proclaimed.

We wanted to study the matter furt her, and we felt that it would be inadvisable to proclaim sections of a bill and bringing them into force when a court had questioned the validity of similar sections in federal legislation .. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I concur with that decision. In fact, I believe we raised that argument when we were considering The Election Finances Act. Is this a final decision not to proclaim those sections, or are those sections of the act subject to some revision at this Session of the Legislature? 1465

Wedneeday , 1 May, 1985 HON. A. PENNEA: We ll. no final decision has been made. The matter is still under review, but I would not want to mislead the member by saying it's under active review or to suggest that there is any intention of bringing in amendments to The Election Finances Act in this Session. Why would we? There Is no election in the offing. MA. G. MEACIER: Would the effect then, Mr.

Chairman -and I ask the Attorney-General to correct me if I'm wrong -will be by not proclaiming those sections, that that will enable individuals and groups in Manitoba to advertise or promote support for indi vidual candida tes or parties in the next provincial election without any restriction on their expenses or activity? HON. A.

PENNEA: As the member knows, the concern was, and to a certain extent still is, and I believe that concern was indeed shared by the previous admin istration in some of the language used by it in the original drafting of The Election Finances Act before it was revised , that you set up a scheme where you try to make an election a fair game and you set certain rest rictions on the amount that a party can spend and you don't want to leave it so open-ended, so much like a sieve, that a party could really make a mockery of the provisions by setting up a shadow organization which would, not being a registered political party, not participating directly by the nomina tion of candida tes and so on, could spend literally hundreds and hun dreds of thousands, if not milli ons, in election advert ising that was supportive of one party or one particular group of candida tes.

So the attempt was made honestly in order to bolster the scheme to prevent that happening. However, the wording that was used as really tested in the Alberta case raised the question of whether or not the freedom of expression of individuals who ought to be able to say their piece either individually or col lectively at any time includ ing, inde ed perhaps especially an election campaign, that Inadvertently the provisions might attack those rights.

When we looked closely at the decision in Al berta, the National Citizens Coalition case in Alberta, we felt that those particular sections indeed might create a problem. There were alternatives that were consi dered before we moved to proclaim the act, but we'r e not fully satisfied with those alternatives. So I have simply left the matter In abeyance at least for the time being. MA. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, on the question of The Election Fina nces Act, I appreciate that the Chief Electoral Officer is a servant and officer of the Assembly , but in the event that he had some difficulties with the legislation I would presume that he would go to the Attorney-General.

I would ask the Attorney-General whether he has received any recommendations from the Chief Electoral Officer with respect to problems arising as a result of The Election Finances Act and as a result of, I know, meetings he has held with represen tatives of all political parties where it would appear that some practical problems had been created with the wording in the legisla tion, and whether he's considering any amendments at this Session? I raise that because it might very well be that, as a result, all of the political parties in volved may very well concur In some amendments to The Election Fin ances Act.

HON. A. PENNER: I am unaware of any repr esentations that are made by the Chief Electoral Officer to this point. Certainly, In my re collection, none have been made to me, but I'll check it out. I'll also check whether represe ntations have been made to anyone else In government. If the Chief Electoral Officer has such representations they would, of course, be given very very serious considera tion. So I'll certainly check Into that, but I have no immediate recollection of any such representations being received in the last several months. MA. G. MEACIEA: Mr.

Chairman, I appreciate the Attorney-General 's answer and I take it from that, and I would appreciate it if he would do so, to consult either him, or perhaps the Government House Leader Is more appropriate, I'm not sure, but consult with the Chief Electoral Officer to' determine whether or not any amendments are reco mmended.

Because, as I say, it may very well be that from what I have heard, from our representatives who met with the Chief Electoral Officer, that there are certainly some problems with the Act caused by the wording. lt might very well be that all parties might agree to some amendments which would resolve some problems in the next elec tion. MA. CHAIRMAN: Any other questions? 1. (b)( 1 )-pass -the Member for St. Norbert. MA. G. MERCIER: Just one other question. Could the Attorney-General ind icate what the salary will be of the Administr ative Assistant to the Deputy Mini ster? HON. R.

PENNEA: Again, I'll take that as notice and provide the information tomorrow. MR. G. MEACIER: That's fine. Pass. MA. CHAIRMAN: 1. (b)( 1)-p ass; 1. (b)(2)-p ass. 1. (c)

(1) Resea rch, Planning and Evaluation: Salaries; 1. (c)

(2) Other Expenditur es - the Member for St. Norbert. MA. G. MERCIEA: Mr. Chairman, I take it that there are 3.2 persons involved in this department. Could the Mi nister advise who works in this area? HON. A. PENNER: The staff presently in Research and Planning are the ADM Justice Mr. Larsen, one support staff, and there Is 1.2 vacancies waiting to be filled. MR. G. MEACIEA: Mr. Larsen's salary is paid out of Rese arch, Planning and Evaluation? HON. R. PENNEA: Ye s, it's located in that unit. MA. G. MEACIER: There is one other staff member at the present time? HON. A. PENNEA: Ye s, secretary to Mr. Larsen. MA. G. MERCIEA: A secretary? And there Is a position vacant? 1486

WednNd ay, 1 May, 1885 HON. R. PENNER: 1. 2. MR. G. MERCIER: And what is the function of that 1. 2, that's the nuclear family, is it? HON. R. PENNER: Yes it is. What we are planning to do Is indicated in my opening remarks, and that's why we have the positions there, is to employ a term position, probably on a contract against which term will be allocated.

A person as a consultant, a person who has expertise in the area of program evaluation to establish the unit, to take a good look at the way in which the programs we have, how they're structured, how they are presently accountable, in a program sense, not in an audit sense, and to make recommendations for the development and putting in place of evaluative mechanisms with some recommendations as to how, over that long term, that unit is to be staffed.

In fact, I'm able to say that we have been able to enter into an agreement, by way of contract, with the University of Manitoba to In a sense purchase the services for a year of Professor Stave Brickey, a sociologist with great credentials in this field who's done a lot of excellent evaluations. MR. G. MERCIER: A sociologist? What is his salary? HON. R. PENNER: I think the contract cost is about $52,000 or $53,000, something of that order. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, earlier I believe the Attorney-General indicated that the Charter of Rights Coalition would report to this area, to the Research area; Is that correct? HON. R. PENNER: No, this is more Research and Planning in terms of program delivery, rather than legal research. The Charter of Rights Coalition reports to the Research Director located in the office of Legislative Counsel. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, in September, 1984, the Attorney-General rescinded an Order-in-Council and appointed Virginia Devine as Planning and Program Ana lyst on the department staff with a salary of $42,478.00.

Is she located in this area? HON. R. PENNER: She's not in our establishment. MR. G. MERCIER: I am referring to a copy of Orders­ In- Council, September - it would appear to be September 20th. something, it might be the 26th or 28th of 1984 - and it refers to the Attorney-General, rescind 0/C 201 /84, and appointment of Virginia Devine as a planning and program analyst on the department staff, $42,478.00. HON. R. PENNER: I'll take that as notice. MR. G. MERCIER: Is Virginia Devine employed on the Minister's staff or somewhere within the department? HON. R. PENNER: No, she's not working for me at the moment.

She was. MR. G. MERCIER: Who is she working for now? HON. R. PENNER: I'll take that as notice and provide you with the information tomorrow. MR. G. MERCIER: Was Virginia Devine not an E.A. or a special assistant to the Attorney-General? HON. R. PENNER: She was originally an E.A., and then she was an S.A. MR. G. MERCIER: The Attorney-General probably won't have these figures with him at the moment, but could he Indicate what her salary level was as an executive assistant and a special assistant? HON. R. PENNER: As an executive assistant, it would have been In the range of around 29 to 31, somewhere around there.

As a special assistant, it would have been around 35 to 37, somewhere around there, as things then were. MR. G. MERCIER: When was she no longer employed by the Attorney-General, then? When did she leave? HON. R. PENNER: I'll take that as notice when the transitional dates were. MR. G. MERCIER: Could the Attorney-General indicate what Other Expenditures in the amount of $14 5,000 are? What do they generally cover? HON. R.

PENNER: The 14 5.1 are monies we've sort of pooled from within the department In order to provide a pool of money for the studies that will be done in order to set up the Planning, Research and Evaluation unit as it is presently being designed, and as it will be further designed by Professor Brlck ey. lt is also available for any studies that might be done with respect to matters relating to Intergovernmental issues that might arise, matters of ju risdiction between this government and other governments arising out of the application of the Charter. So it's a pool of money that is available for studies.

For example, when trying to divide the responsibilities for legal analysis and legal study which is presently located within the division of the Legislative Counsel and under their research dir ector there and the application in a program sense of things arising out of, let's say,

Section 15 of the Charter, where you have to look at a study that might be done in terms of program delivery. So we have a pool of money that's available through the year for studies of that kind. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (c)( 1) -p ass; 1. (c)(2) - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Just one question, this Professor Brickey, will he be working full-time for this department? HON. R. PENNER: Yes. MR. G. MERCIER: What will he be doing for the Attorney-General's Department in his field of sociology? 1467

Wednea day, 1 May, 1985 HON. R. PENNER: Program evaluation. Let me take a couple of examples. We have a Victim- Witness Assistance project. Program evaluation, whether done directly by Mr. Brickey or someone under him who is developing as an evaluation officer within the department, would take a look at how that program is operating. What was it designed to do? How does it deal with the victims of crime? Does it have adequate resources? Does it do staff training? Does it have adequate budget?

Is it misusing its budget in a sense of not directing its energies in a way that would more appropriately satisfy the problems of victims of crime? What is it doing in the witness field? How is it co-ordinating the delivery of its particular program with other programs within the department? How does it relate to the demands placed upon it by the prosecutorial branch of the department? So that's what a program evaluator does.

A program evaluator would take a look at certain aspects of Legal Aid delivery with respect to how the system deals with the actual handling of clients on the human side, let's say, not just as legal problems. A program evaluator might take a look at any one of a number of programs of that kind. They might take a look at the way in which we deal with criminal injuries compensation, and evaluate it as a program from the point of view of program delivery. lt's not something that requires legal expertise. lt is not a legal analysis. MR. G.

MERCIER: Is there any other Attorney-General's department in Canada that will have a sociologist on staff? HON. R. PENNER: The member, I think, perhaps misunderstands. Professor Brickey is not being brought on staff as a permanent member of staff. We're purchasing his services for one year. He continues on as a full-time Professor of Sociology at the University of Manitoba, that's where his career path is and will continue.

Bringing his particular expertise to look at the multifarious activities of the department, so many of which these days are in sort of the human justice area, and take a look at the needs of the department from the point of view of program evaluation which in my very strong view, has to be a continuing function of government in every department, whether or not those who will subsequently carry on the program are at that level remains to be seen, although I would doubt it.

That is, they woul dn't be full-time professors of sociology or people with a Ph.D., although I wish we had the resources to purchase people of that qualit y. There are a number of people out there with these kinds of skills, or there are people within the department who might be trained by someone like Professor Brickey to be our ongoing program evaluators. MR. G. MERCIER: Ho w was Professor Brickey selected? HON. R. PENNER: Not by bulleting, we didn't bulletin the position. His name was known to us because of some of the work that he's had published on evaluating various kinds of criminal justice programs.

He is the author of a number of articles on the criminal justice system. So we felt that he had another dimension, in addition to that of a sociologist, who has some particular expertise in the area of program evaluation, and that is, he was not unfamiliar with the system. MR. G. MERCIER: I wonder if the Attorney-General could undertake to perhaps provide me with some copies of the articles and works of Professor Brickey. HON. R. PENNER: Sure. I am glad to help you build up your library. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(c)(1)-p ass; 1.(c)(2)- pass. 1. (d)

(1) Fina ncial and Admi nistrative Services: Salaries; 1.(d)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MER CIER: To just take it generally , Mr. Chairman, the additional funds required for salaries is due to the additional person budget analyst that will be hired in this area? HON. R. PENNER: I am sorry; I missed the question. MR. G. MERCIER: I take it the additional expenditures on salaries are mainly due to the increase of one person as a Budget Analyst? HON. R. PENNER: Mainly due to that, yes. MR. G. MERCIER: Pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (d)(1 )-pass; 1.(d)(2)- pass. 1.(e)

(1) Personnel Services: Salaries; 1. (e)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Could the Attorney-General indicate whether the Attorn ey- Gener al's Department has established a committee to do its own hiring for the Attorney-General's Department? I believe there are, as I recollect, arrangements that could be made by departments with the Civil Service Commission to be responsible for a department's own hiring. HON. R. PENNER: Yes; we do have a delegated authority for that below a certain level, but we don't do that on a departmental basis for the senior positions. MR. G. MERCIER: lt's not done for the senior positions?

HON. R. PENNER: No, we don't. For the senior we don't have delegated authority of the kind that you are referring to below a certain level. MR. G. MERCIER: Okay. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: In a recent collective agreement that was signed with the MGEA, and I believe most of the staff of the Attorney-General's are covered by it, except for the Crown Attorneys, there was one week of extra holiday granted to them for this year; how are you covering that during this year? Are you hiring additional 1468

Wedne.ctay, 1 May, 1985 staff or will the work just be shared amongst the existing personnel? HON. A. PENNER: Substantially it will be covered within existing staff, but you will note, indeed, and it's appropriate to ask that question at this time, that the increase of one SY in Personnel Services is indeed to provide a central resource to all divisions for temporary clerical assistance to cut down on overtime, that is, as a float person, which will help give us flexibility within the various admi nistrative units where we can't cover off completely within existing staff. MR. C.

BIRT: Was this person hired because of the agreement with MGE A? HON. A. PENNER: No, this person really would have been hired in any event. MR. C. BIRT: I understand then that you would just be sharing the workload during the existing year with the extra holiday time going to the staff? You won't be hiring any temporary staff or anything like this to cover off the extra holiday? HON. A. PENNER: I can't say that for certain. We are certainly going to make the effort to handle the extra holiday time within existing resources.

I should point out, incidentally, in case my previous answer misled the member, that the additional SY is not a person, but it's term time. That is, we can hire up to 52 weeks of time, but we may hire someone for 2 weeks, we may hire someone for 3 weeks, and so on. We may hire five people at the same time during the summ er for four weeks each, or something of that kind. MR. C. BIRT: I believe there was a policy directive, and I would like to know whether it's still in place, where I believe Treasury Board says there shall be at least a 7 percent vacancy in staff positions; is that policy still in effect? HON. A.

PENNER: No, it is not. That policy, which was put in place temporarily as we went through the Estimate exercise so that we could, against any eventuality, have a pool of vacancies to use in case of worst possible scenarios, was retained during the whole of the Estimate period. With the conclusion of the preparation of the Estimates, then that particular way of controlling or building a pool, really, was no longer needed. We still, of course - all of us - must live within our staff allocations and cannot increase staff allocations without going through Treasury Board. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 1. (eX1) - pass; 1. (eX2)- pass. 1. (fX 1) Computer Services: Salaries; 1. (fX2) Other Expenditures - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, would this item include the work being done at the Land Titles Office, or does the Land Titles Office appropriation contain HON. A. PENNER: This particular budgetary unit is used primarily for developmental work, and it was used for developmental work with respect to the Land Titles systems.

But once that is done and the decisions have been made as to what is to go in place, then the actual purchase of the hardware and software fall within the budgetary allocation of the particular unit. MR. G. MERCIER: I note that in the Supplementary information there is an increase in operating costs related to the re-establishment of the Manitoba Justice Information System project. I believe this is the project that has been worked on for probably eight or nine years; is it finally now coming to some fruition, and is it actually to be implemented in some way this year? HON. A.

PENNER: it's still a developmental year, I am sorry to say, the fact that, for fiscal reasons, we had to take sort of a one-year holiday on the development and, Indeed, the projected trial application of the program has been a bit of a setback, and we have to go back to the developmental board. We are now looking, as we develop this system, which is a little different than the promise system - I think it's not dissimilar from the system that's in pla ce in Saskatchewan.

We might still use the updated version of promise or the system that's being used in Saskatchewan, and that's part of the developmental work that is presently being done. MR. G. MERCIER: I wonder if the Attorney-General could indicate just very generally and quickly what main computer systems are now in effect in the department. HON. A. PENNER: Personal Property Security Registry; the Statutes of Manitoba - there is a program operated out of Mr.

Moylan's office which keeps the Statutes updated for purposes of the consolidation and ultimately for pu rposes of revision; the Enforcement of Maintenance Judgments System; the General Register of the Land Titles Office, which I referred to earlier this afternoon; there is a Q.B. Registry System that's a computerized system; a smaller system for jury selection which is now done by the compu ter, rather than the old meeting in the office of the Chief Judge of the Cou ntry Court. We have all of the JPs and stipendiary magistrates on a computer printout system, that's a minor program; security guards are similar.

There are two or th ree other minor systems. MR. G. MERCIER: Does the department generally tender out for computer services or use Manitoba Data Services? HON. A. PENNER: The way the system works now is that, in fact, a department has some initiative in looking around, because it's familiar with the kinds of systems which are adaptable to its particular programs; but before it can make a decision it has to go through the Information Management Division in . Finance, it's located in Finance. Mr.

Sinnott just points out - just some additional information - that the larger programs, Personal Property Security Registrar and LTO General Registrar are operated through the Manitoba Data Services Main Frame,

whereas the other ones I mentioned we do in­ house on smaller units. 1469

Wldneeday, 1 May, 1885 MR. G. MERCIER: Pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(f)(1)-p ass; 1. (f)(2)- pass. 1.(g)

(1) Commun ications: Salaries; 1. (g)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, can the Minister indicate, is this salary for one or two persons? HON. R. PENNER: One person. MR. G. MERCIER: And who is that? HON. R. PENNER: Brian Phillips, in the yellow polka­ dot tie. MR. G. MERCIER: The Attorney-General supplied us with a list - I take it the program for 1985-86 - could he indicate whether the French Language Services in Courts brochure has yet been published? HON. R. PENNER: Not yet. MR. G. MERCIER: When is that expected to be published? HON. R.

PENNER: A little later in the year, I haven't got an exact date at the moment. MR. G. MERCIER: What is the Attorney-General's Department general brochure? What will that be? HON. R. PENNER: That will be something very similar to brochures of this kind run by other departments and by other A-Gs which will describe the organization of the department, the programs that it delivers, the offices that can be contacted for various kinds of services, very informational. MR. G. MERCIER: Mainly for use between governments and departments? HON. R.

PENNER: Available to, but not designed to be generally distri buted to the public. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I believe a year or two ago I raised, when we were dealing with an amendment to The Public Trustee Act, I believe it was, that took away, or certainly gave to the executor of an estate the discretion to invest estate monies in, basically, whatever a reasonable person supposedly would invest those mon ies in, and took away certa in specific requirements to invest in only . . . HON. R. PENNER: The prudent-man rule. MR. G. MERCIER: The prudent-man rule. HON. R. PENNER: The prudent-person rule. MR. G.

MERCIER: I raised, at that particular time, the issue that in many cases, many people being prudent, but being perhaps unskilled or never having been inv olved in the in vestment of fu nds before, but becoming executors of estates, which could perhaps involve minors, should have available to them some general information on the performance of their duties, and the suggestion I made at that time was that perhaps through the public trustees office there might be some information made available to persons, perhaps through the Surrogate Court office.

At the time it might prove helpful, in view of the taking away of those specific restrictions on inv estments which, at least, were certainly a guideline and obviously a very safe way for executors to invest the funds. I suppose I could raise this under Public Trustee but, in view ·of the fact, that this is a communications area, has any consideration been given to the Public Trustee's office developing some helpful information to executors or trustees on the investment of state funds? HON. R. PENNER: No consideration is presently being given, but I certainly will take that as a suggestion. Mr.

Philli ps is here, we can discuss it with Mr. Raichura in the Public Trustee's office. I think it's a good suggestion, and it's something that I would be prepared to look at in this fiscal year. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Attorney-General could Indicate whether Mr. Phillips, as Communications Director for this department, received the memorandum dated April 23, 1985, from Mr.

Garth Cramer, Secretary to the Premier's Office, a copy of which was sent to all Ministers, NDP MLAs, E.A.s, Special Assistants and Commun ications Directors with regard to alleged fact sheets for use in the NDP spring campaign, and whether Mr. Phillips used that informa tion and particip ated in the ND P spring campaign. HON. R. PENNER: Have you got a wrong number? Mr. Phillips did receive it, and there the matter rests. MR. G. MERCIER: I appreciate, Mr. Chairman, that the Premier in response to my questions yesterday did indicate that he thought it was wrong.

I presume that feeling would be reinforced by the Attorney-General that his communications director should not be involved In partisan political activities like that. HON. R. PENNER: it was never the intention that any communication director in government anywhere be Involved in those activities other than, I suppose, if as individuals they were members of ours or any other political party. The intention clearly, albeit misdirected in a sense In the way in which the covering letter was put together, was simply to say here's a number of factions. You might find these interesting or useful, that was the intention.

But the Premier has already indicated that he thought it was not appropriate to have sent them out in the way 'in which that did happen, and I share his views. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (g)(1)-p ass; 1. (g)(2)- pass. There will be no resolution on this item because of the Minister's Salary. Item No. 2.(a)

(1) Criminal Justice, Crown Prosecutors: Salaries, 2.(a)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for St. Norbert. 1470

Wednesday, 1 ... , 1111 MA. G. MEACIEA: Mr. Chairman, I'm referring to a bulletin from the Deputy Attorney-General's office dated March 22, 1985, advertising the position of Director of Prosecutions. Could the Attorney-General indicate when he anti cipates the ap pointment of a Director of Prosecutions? HON. A. PENNEA: Very soon. I am not immediately familiar with when the closing date of that bulletin was. - (Interjection) - April 25th? So we haven't had a board on that yet. I haven't seen nor would I see at this stage the applications.

We have had the board on the Director of Civil Litigation - that will come up later - but no decision has been made there yet. MA. G. MEACIEA: Who will sit on the board to recommend the appointment of the Dir ector of Prosecutions? HON. A. PENNEA: The Deputy Attorney-General, Mr. John Guy; the Assistant Deputy Min ister of Criminal Justice; our Director of Personnel Services, Art Proulx; and likely one outside person.

I think that it was the Deputy's notion that we should have perhaps somebody from the private bar, but there are some concerns about how that might be done, or another senior person from another department. But that hasn't been decided. MA. G. MEACIEA: Mr. Chairman, the bulletin ind icates that the dir ector has principal respon sibilit y for supervision of criminal prosecutions with the exception of special prosecutions and counsel positions. Could the Mini ster ind icate what he means by princip al responsibility for supervision of criminal prosecutions? HON. A.

PENNEA: That is, in effect, the day-to-day admin istrative respon si bili ty for all cr imin al prosecutions, whether through the Young Offenders system or through the adult system or at the appellate level. The Director of Prosecutions has to make sure that he has adequate staff to carry out the responsibilities which the department has to prosecute criminal offences; that they're adequately trained and deployed; and that decisions of that managerial character are taken.

When we talk about principal responsibility, I think that's meant to indicate as it must that it's not sole responsibil ity, that the ADM, Criminal will play a key role in the ongoing functions of the Crimi nal Prosecutions Branch and will be responsible for the development of policy, procedures, training and working with the rest of the department and inde ed interdepartmentally in special areas where there are other departmental components.

These are things that the ADM normally would do, although that doesn't exclude the involvement of the Director of Prosecutions from being involved in such things as wife abuse committees and committees on special areas of responsibility such as that. MA. G. MEACIEA: Mr. Chairman, could the Attorney­ General indicate on how many occasions during his tenure as Attorney-General he has either not consulted the Director of Prosecutions before making a decision 1471 with respect to a criminal prosecution, or has overruled in some manner the recommendation of the Director of Prosecutions? HON. A.

PENNEA: I don't think I have ever overruled the recommendation of the Director of Prosecutions. I think we should recall that there hasn't been a Director of Prosecutions since approximately August 1st when the former Director of Prosecutions became the ADM, Criminal. But leaving that distinction aside, I can't really think at the moment of any recommendation made by the Director of Prosecutions which might come to me either directly or indirectly which I have overruled.

During the time I've been in office, there may have been four, perhaps five requests to me to directly indict, and I have accepted recommendations with respect to