Manitoba Hansard — 25 March 1977 (Sitting 27A, 30th Legislature, 4th Session)

30-4-27a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

OIME: 10:00 a.m. THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY of MANI TOBA Friday, March 25, 1977 OPEN ING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker MR.nSPEAKER,nHo nourable Peter Fox (Kildonan): Before we proceed I should like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the gallery where we have 56 students, Grade 9 standing, of the John Gunn School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Hilderman. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Transcona, the Minister of Labour.

We also have 30 members of the Red River Community College Extension Service of the Selkirk Avenue Branch, under the direction of Mrs. Nancy Pierce. This group is from the constituency of the Honourable Member Point Douglas. And we have 22 students, Grade 7 standing, of the Warren Elementary School, under the direction of Mr. R. Boyd. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Lakeside. On behalf of all the honourable members we welcome you here this morning. Presenting Petitions. READING AND RE CEIVING PETITIONS MR.

CLERK: The Petition of the community of the Sisters of the Holy Names of Jesus and Mary praying for the passing of

an Act to amend

An Act to incorporate the community of the Sisters of the Holy Names of Jesus and Mary. MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees; Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports; Notices of Motion. INTRODU CTION OF BILLS MR. nSIDNEY SP IVAK introduced Bill (No. 41)

An Act to Prohibit the Discontinuance of Heat, Light or Power to Certain Consumers. MR. STEVE DEREWIANCHUK introduced Bill (No. 38)

An Act to amend

An Act to Incorporate The Winnipeg Bible Institute and College of Theology. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. WARREN STEEN: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister of Urban Affairs and ask the Minister if he would explain to the members of the House the formula change used between the City of Winnipeg and the province in relation to the financing of The Transit Commission. This formula appears to be causing the City of Winnipeg an increase in their mill rate. Could he explain it to us, please? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HO NOURABLE SAUL A.

MILLER(Seven Oaks): Mr. Speaker, there was no change in formula. The formula which has been established was 50 percent of passenger revenue, or 50 percent of deficit, whichever was the lesser. That was the formula that was conveyed to the City in 1976. That was the formula we followed. The revenues anticipated in 1976 were considerably lower last year because of the fact that the Transit didn't operate for a few weeks, as you recall, during the strike. But there was no change in formula per se.

The only change was in the method of advancing the payments, rather than advancing the payments on the previous year actual to the advance on the estimated current year. There is a misunderstanding obvious to me. We will be meeting some time today with the City as to

interpretation. The letters I sent to the city are crystal clear in my mind and I am not quite sure why they are not crystal clear in their minds. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. GORDON E. JO HNSTO N: Mr. Speaker, I direct my question to the Honourable the Minister of Education. Is this Minister aware that the drug Ritalin, which is a stimulant, has been administered to over 500 Winnipeg students in the past year to control hyperactive behaviour? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HO NOURABLE IAN TURN BULL (Osborne): Mr.

Speaker, I am aware that drugs are sometimes used on children who attend school and that these drugs are administered by members of the medical profession. MR. G. E. JOH NSTON: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Then by the Minister's statement he approves of the use of this drug. Is that correct? MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Speaker, the Member for Portage la Prairie asked if I was aware if drugs were administered to children attending school The answer is yes. The answer connotes no approval at all.

As a matter of fact I don't think there is anybody in my department, and certainly I am not, competent to judge whether or not medical drugs presumably on the narcotics list could be or should be administered to anybody whether they are in school or out of school. 11 97

Friday ,March 25, 1977 MR. G. E. JOHN STO N: Mr. Speaker, I direct a similar question to the Minister of Health. Was he aware of this situation and has his department given approval to the Winnipeg school division to make use of the drug Ritalin? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HO NOURABLE LAURENT L. DESJAR DI NS (St. Boniface): Mr. Speaker, no, I wasn't aware. There is certainly no authorization from the school division. It might be the Child Guidance Clinic. I will check. I know that medication at times if administered by experts and wisely can be helpful, but I will look into the matter. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. R. (Bud) SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourablethe Minister of Labour and arises from overnight developments in respect to the government's conciliation efforts in the Griffin Steel strike. I would ask the Minister whether the government conciliation unit has received a counter-proposal at this time from the union involved? MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Labour. HO NOURABLE RUSSELL PAULLEY (Transcona): No, not to my knowledge at this time, Mr. Speaker.

I am anticipating that there will be a counter-proposal but I say to my honourable friend that I have not received it as of this moment. MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BOB BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I would direct my question to the Minister of Corrections and would ask him if the Federal Government is consulting him and his government with regard to the location for the proposed federal penitentiary? MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister for Corrections. HO NOURABLE J. R.

BOYCE (Winnipeg Centre): There are several communities which have indicated an interest in having the facility located in their community. MR. BAN MAN: Mr. Speaker, I repeat my question. I wonder if the Minister could inform the House whether the Federal Government is consulting with the Minister and the government with regard to the location of that particular facility. MR. BOYCE: Well, I probably misunderstood his first question. I am sorry. I don't know what you mean by "consult." It is their prerogative to decide where it goes. They do talk to us about where it goes.

In fact there was a meeting the day before yesterday with the regional director from Saskatoon and because of the apparent reluctance of Selkirk, they are re-examining the location of it in Selkirk. MR. BANMAN: A supplementary question then, Mr. Speaker. Has the Minister had requests from various communities in southeastern Manitoba for assistance from his department to locate the new federal penitentiary in one of their communities? MR. BOYCE: Assistance in the sense, Mr. Speaker, that I try and facilitate the direction of the correspondence to the proper people.

This is under the prerogative of the Solicitor-General and all we can do is make available the lines of communication to the Federal Government. MR. BANMAN: A final supplementary. I wonder if the Minister could inform the House whether the government will be advising the Federal Government as to which specific community they would like to see that facility go into? MR. BOYCE: The Provincial Government has no preference in this regard.

We were first approached by Town Council in Selkirk and five of the six councillors supported the location of the institution there and because of their support, I thought it was a good place to locate it at that time. But subsequent to that, for some reason or other, some people are trying to drum up opposition to it being located in Selkirk. I don't understand their reasons why they're doing it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. ROBERT G. WILSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A question to the Minister in charge of the Department of Education. Could the Minister confirm that Ms.

Laura Sleiman is the head of the Information Service for the Department of Education? MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Speaker, that is correct and I want to confirm that a person by that name is head of Information Services in the Department of Education. MR. WILSON: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Is itthe policy of Information Services' staff to write letters to the Editor about opposition members? MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the Member for Wolseleyfor giving me the Letter to the Editor titled "Writer Doesn't Like Conservatives" and I am admonished by the Member for Portage la Prairie to read it.

If I could have permission I would, Sir, but I think that would take too much time of the House. I gather what the member is trying to do is try to ask whether this is the policy of the Department. I can tell him that it's not the policy of the department but I know that the Member for Wolseley excites people, including Queen's Court Judges to say various things. MR. WILSON: A supplementary. If the Minister of Education didn't assist in drafting this document. ... MR. SPEAK ER: Order please. Order please. The Honourable Member should read Citation 171 119 8

Friday,March 25, 1977

Section A. The Honourable Member tor Wolseley. MR. WILSON: Is the Minister planning any disciplinary action? MR. TURNBU LL: Mr. Speaker, I do not think that this letter was written during office hours so therefore I would not plan disciplinary action but I will ask, if indeed this letter that the Member tor Wolsely put on my desk this morning was written by the same person, which of course this question wasn't asked me, but I will check into that and see if it is the same person. I assume it will be and I want to assure the member that I had no

part in writing it in my spare time either. ORDE RS OF THE DAY ADJOUR NED DE BATES - SECO ND READING MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Acting House Leader. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if you would kindly go along with the adjourned debates tor second reading. 040 BILL NO. 3 - THE FARM INCOME ASSU RAN CE PLANS ACT MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. Adjourned Debates - Bill No.3. The Honourable Member tor Lakeside. MR. HARRY J.

ENNS: Mr.nSpeaker, the other day when the Minister of Agriculture introduced Bill No.3 into the House and at second reading gave us his rather detailed explanation, the only thought that came to my mind was that not only would my cows and bulls not understand the bill but I doubt whether a Philadelphia lawyer could understand the bill. It's again a typical bit of gobbledegook and gimmickry that comes up with a formula that is simply unbelievable. Mr.

Speaker, my leader is a lawyer and he couldn't understand it as it was being introduced for second reading into this House. - (Interjection)- The Honourable Member tor Fort Garry says it the Member for Ste. Rose can't understand it, then it is truly incomprehensible. But we're dealing with the bill in case it slips the memory of some members, of a very complicated formula that this Minister has chosen to work out for the cattle industry.

We recall of course that he jumped in with both feet while other provinces took a more cautious attitude, nonetheless compassionate in helping the cattle industry, Alberta, Saskatchewan and other provinces recognizing the need tor some help in the cattle industry, supported their industry but did so on a yearly basis. This Minister of course decided to wrap up the cattle industry here for a five year basis and now he finds himself in difficulty with that plan and with the scope of the plan.

Ottawa has finally - and I agree with the Honourable Minister- belatedly shown some equal concern about the state of the livestock industry across Canada and has introduced its stabilization program and what this bill of course does is now attempt to marry the two together and Mr. Speaker, we in the opposition cannot fault the Minister for doing it, we will be supporting the bill. The bill does what only makes common sense.

If we have two support programs going in the country- one a federal program, one a provincial program - then I have to concur with the Minister in the intent of the bill to bring the two together. But Mr. Speaker, there is one particular area that I really have difficulty in accepting this bill and that's the first part of the bill. I know we can't deal with the bill on a clause by clause basis but it's a bill that gives to this Minister the right to enter into any kind of a program with the producers individually or collectively and you know, Mr.

Speaker, we may be prepared to give a Minister a great deal of authority and perhaps, Mr. Speaker, in the normal writing of the bill, we shouldn't take the wording all that literal that in fact he would be doing so with the consultation of producers. But, Sir, we've just gone through a period - particularly the cattle producers in this province have gone through a period - where we have been demonstrated this Minister doesn't consult with anybody, with anybody and he is quite prepared to, in a willful and arrogant way, push through his particular feelings on any given subject matter.

So when the bill reads "the Minister to establish farm income insurance plans with producers individually or collectively and the Minister on behalf of the Government of Manitoba to enter into agreements with the Government of Canada or with any agency of the Government of Canada, to provide for joint participation." - we don't really want to give this Minister that kind of authority, Mr. Speaker, and we really don't seethe necessity for it in the bill. Mr.

Speaker, I repeat for the Minister's benefit, we have no quarrel with the principal aim of the bill which is to marry the two plans, the beef stabilization plans together; namely the provincial plan that was introduced a year ago by our provincial Minister of Agriculture into the plan that has now been offered to all producers of beef across the country of Canada by the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture for Canada, Mr. Whelan. There's nothing wrong with that intent and the Conservative opposition will support the bill tor that reason. But we quarrel, Mr. Speaker, that the first part of the bill, namely under

Section 2, to grant unto this particular Minister the kind of powers that I just described tor him to get into any kind of agreements with individual producers, with collective 11 99

Friday,March 25, 1977 producers, simply goes down rather hard with us. This Minister has demonstrated throughout his period of office that he is very selective when and how he chooses to consu It with producer groups. Very selective, it all depends on what particular political aim he is pursuing. And then, Mr. Speaker, of course, as it sometimes happens with all of those who pursue political aims, we sometimes fall completely or to quite an extent off target as happened with the 77-23 miss of a few weeks ago on the part of the effort by this Minister to impose his will on a group of beef producers. Mr.

Speaker, that's the portion of the bill that concerns us. I suggest again that perhaps we are taking the meaning of the writing of the word when it says "this Minister" too literal. I know that is the manner and way in which bills are written up but, Sir, we have a reason and much more important than we, it's the producers, the farmers in Manitoba that have reasons to be worried about the actions of this Minister.

Our understanding, Sir, of the proper action involving the establishment of these kinds of boards involving producer commodity groups begins with the request from the producers, begins and entails a great deal of consultation with the producers, whether they are hog producers or beef producers, milk producers or any other farming producers in our province. This Minister doesn't clearly understand the word "consultation" but he has a very full understanding of the word "confrontation." MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. JAMES R. FERGU SON: Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Rhineland that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs now. HO NOURABLE RONALD McBRYDE (The Pas): Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the House would give me leave to table the Flood Forecast and the Spring Run-off Outlook? MR. SPEAKER : Does the Honourable Minister have leave? The Honourable Minister. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Speaker, there are two releases, one on the Spring Run-off Outlook and one on the Flood Forecast and they can just be tabled and distributed. MR.

SPEAKER: Proposed bill by the Honourable Minister of Public Works, the Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell, Bill No.4. MR. HARRY E. GRAHAM : Stand. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No.5 also in the Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Stand. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No.7. The Honourable Member for Portage La Prairie. MR. G. JOHN STON: Stand, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No.18 proposed by the Minister of Labour. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Stand, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No.20 proposed by the Minister of Health. The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. ARNOLD BROWN : Stand, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: Bill No.23 proposed by the Honourable Minister of Finance. The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Stand. MR. SPEAK ER: Bill No.25 proposed by the Minister of Labour. The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE: Stand, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No.26 proposed by the Minister of Labour. The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. BILTON: Stand, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No.29 proposed by the Minister of Highways. The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Stand, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Health that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee of Supply. MOTION presented and carried and.the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Logan in the Chair for Health and Social Development, and the Honourable Member for St. Vital in the Chair for Municipal Affairs. 1200

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY of MANITOBA Friday, March 25, 1977 CONC URRENT COMMI TTEES OF SUPPLY ESTIMA TES - MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS CHAIRM AN, Mr. D. James Walding (St. Vital): We have a quorum, gentlemen. The committee will come to order. I direct the attention of honourable members to Page 47 in their Estimates Book, the Department of Municipal Affairs, Resolution 87(

a) The Minister's Compensation. The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. EDWARD McGILL: Mr. Chairman, I want to take up a matter here with the Minister that relates to an amendment to the planning scheme known as the St. Andrews Planning Scheme 1975(d). It applies to a portion of the R.M. of St. Andrews. I wonder if the Minister has had any notices or letters relating to an amendment that was proposed to zone an area immediately north of St. Andrews Airport as rural residential. Has he had any requests from people who are concerned about the zoning of that area adjacent to the present St. Andrews Airport? MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, not that I'm aware of. I do know and the honourable member likely knows that as well, that the area south-east of the airport has rural residential development in the vicinity of the St. Andrews airfield, if I'm not mistaken. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, I gather then that the Minister has not really concerned himself with the zoning and the planning in this area and my reason for placing this question is that I can see now a possibility of history repeating itself in respect to the growth of residential areas adjacent to that airport.

And perhaps the Minister won't recall, but there are people here who can recall when Winnipeg International Airport was once a field out in the wide open spaces and then, over a period of years, there was a gradual encroachment and build-up of housing developments in that area to the point where the operations at Winnipeg International Airport were somewhat inhibited. As a result of pressure and increasing traffic, it became necessary to establish a satellite airport and that was St. Andrews and much of the traffic, particularly light aircraft traffic, was moved to St.

Andrews for reasons which included the safety of the people living around the airport, noise level and other factors. Now, we have at St. Andrews an airport that is now one of the ten busiest in Canada in terms of total traffic. They have almost reached the saturation point in terms of air traffic at St. Andrews, which was developed not so very many years ago simply to handle what was becoming a difficult traffic situation at Winnipeg International. We are now being told that some new runways are going to be planned for St.

Andrews and that they may extend in to or bring this rural residential area much closer to the airport. Now it seems to me, Mr. Chairman, that this is a very serious problem that we shouldn't allow history to repeat itself in terms of build-up around an airport and I'm wondering just what observations the Minister has to make in this connection? MR. URU SKI: Mr.

Chairman, the concerns that the member raises, I would say that in terms of residential development around and immediately adjacent to an airfield are valid concerns and I realize that likely any urban centre where an airfield has been located has faced that kind of problem and I think likely will face that kind of a problem in the area of development.

However, I believe that the process that any development plan which may ultimately take place in that municipality, would ultimately come in to the province and the province would be in a position to indicate its concerns, whether there would be concerns about the development plan of a municipality from a provincial point of view. MR. McG ILL: Well, I would interpret the Minister's statement to indicate that he will respond when there is a more active voice in terms of the encroachments at that airport, but isn't that a little late for any kind of movement to take place?

This has been the way in which responses have been given by governments to the complaints of people who live adjacent to busy airports in the past and it's always, in my view, after the fact. Now why can't we use the historical lessons that we've learned at airports, and we have one right here in Winnipeg, why can't we use those for the Minister to really take a position in this, to point out that this problem has to be anticipated in terms of many years perhaps. We are talking about a repetition of the Winnipeg International situation which might be full blown in ten or fifteen years from now at St. Andrews. MR.

URU SKI: Mr. Chairman, I indicated the concerns are valid. As the member well knows, the province is now in the process of developing long term land use guidelines which municipalities will be able to reflect upon when they propose their development plans for their relevant municipalities. However, this process is in the stages where the departments now are working out relevant concerns and these are likely concerns that are being considered at this present time from a provincial policy point of view. So they are, the concerns that the member expresses are being worked on. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, I wou Id again point out that it's very difficult in the very early stages of 1201

Friday ,March 25, 1977 development of this type to act upon responses or requests for action from the people involved. It isn't with the first time residential owners in this area that the problems arise. They come in, of course, with a full knowledge and understanding of the potential hazards that exist for their house site in respect to its adjacency to the airport.

They are aware of and they accept the noise problems that relate to aviation activity at an airport, but the problem comes with subsequent owners and generations who then take up the position of the original person and have no sympathy and no feeling of having accepted a location with some hazards and some objectionable features. So it really is a very difficult area for a Minister to take an initiative and to anticipate the problem so far in the future and I'm pleased to know that the Minister has some plans in that respect. Can he be somewhat more definitive in that area?

What specifically is he doing in this relation? Has he had any discussions with the Ministry of Transport in Ottawa in relation to problems of this type that have occurred elsewhere? I understand that at Thunder Bay, an airport that was once well removed from residential areas, is now being faced with a strong lobby which is asking the government to move that airport away from the built-up area. This is happening all across Canada and I certainly hope it doesn't happen twice in our province because it's a very expensive and difficult process to go through for any municipality. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, I can certainly and I would' undertake to bring this matter forward to the provincial Land Use Committee when determination of guidelines on land use policy of the province are being considered and they will likely be considered in a matter of months. In fact, the departments now are working out possible guidelines and I am sure that theywill take cognizance of the honourable member's concerns as well and I am sure that they have, at this point in time, looked at this kind of a land use policy in areas and, in specific, in the area around airports. MR. McG ILL: Mr.

Chairman, pending some eventual discussion of this matter, in the meantime then this amendment has gone through and there will be a rural residential development established in the area immediately north of St. Andrews Airport? MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I would have to take that as notice and get the specifics of it, whether it has in fact been approved and the plan is in place, but I will take that as notice and get more information on the specifics of what the member is discussing. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: I have no further questions. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. FERGU SON: Mr. Chairman, I'll forgo at this time to the Minister of Agriculture and I'll come in after him. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. HENDERSON: Mr. Chairman, you leave me a little bit in doubt here. If my friend over there will forgo for the Minister of Agriculture, I am willing too, if there is some special reason. If it's in relation to Ed's topic and he would like to, I will forgo then. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HO NOURABLE SAMUEL USKIW (Lac du Bonnet): Wei I Mr.

Chairman, I appreciate the point that the Member for Brandon West is making. I think it would be good for us if we could understand the context in which he is raising those concerns because we are looking at planning, and it seems to me that if you're looking at it in the context of planning, then one draws from that the implication that one can simply freeze an area in anticipation of development, at the expense and without compensation of the owner in the area. If that's the implication, I have a concern with his suggestion.

If he is suggesting that we shou Id have forward planning vis-a-vis the transport ministry in Ottawa, whereby they land-bank around their airports, then I wholeheartedly agree with him. But I sure don't think that it would be proper to freeze an area without compensation, and that people that are in the area would be locked in indefinitely into an impossible situation. I wonder whether he would give us some clarification of what his motivation is in raising that question. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, my motivation is simply one of general concern for what has happened historically around airports, and what is likely to happen again around this airport. The Minister of Agriculture asked me for technical answers on how this should happen.

I'm not prepared to offer any suggestions other than to say that surely the Ministry of Transport in the Federal Government have faced this so many times, at such great expense, surely they have some plans now that would apply to a developing situation that shows all the indications of being a replay of something we Now went through before. of course there would have to be compensations. I have no knowledge of those people who specifically are involved here, and I speak tor no group in this.

I speak for one who has been in the aviation field for a number of years and who sees this difficult and awkward and expensive thing being done all over again. I don't think the taxpayers in our country should have to bear this kind of expense. Surely we can learn from our lessons of the past. MR. FERGU SON: Well thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don't really have a great deal to say on this. It more or less is a wrap-up to what discussions have been on the whole of Municipal Affairs. I think the 1202

Friday ,March 25, 1977 Minister is quite aware of what the basic problems are and what the fears are in connection with rural areas and assessment on farm land again. I think that we are going to have to review this whole situation. I'm talking about assessment to do with the special mill rates in connection with education, and I think that all members of this committee have stressed, and made it as plain as we possibly can to the Minister, that there is great concern in the rural areas.

We feel that we are entering a period whereby incomes are going to be drastically reduced, and whether or not, again, this particular land is going to show a profit, we're going to be taxed on it. I feel, and I cannot stress too strongly to the Minister, that we're going to have to come to the point whereby agricultural land is going to be assessed by the services that are going to have to be provided, which is going to be drainage, roads, etc. To get down to the Planning Act, I think there is general consensus among all members of the committee that we do have to have a Planning Act.

But here again, we seem to be running into a situation where the paper work is going to become so burdensome that I don't know just how the thing is going to work. We find that we have 50 municipalities participating in the plan at the moment and at the present time it's taking, as a minimum from the information that I have, about four months to consummate any sort of a deal. Somehow or other this process has to be speeded up, because there just is no way that we can carry on this way. There's one other thing. I believe that the Building Code is possibly tied in to the Planning Act.

It may be the Department of Labour, I don't know, but my information is that there are only seven inspectors in the Province of Manitoba to do with inspecting the buildings, and I would like to have the Minister, if he would, explain just what is going on in connection with this Building By-Law. I haven't had an opportunity to go through this book, I just got it the other day. What is going to happen here? Is the inspection going to be taken away from the municipalities, and just what is going on here? MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, the specifics of the Building Code that the member refers to are under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Labour. However I can indicate to him that the Province does not intend to take anything over from the municipalities at all, in fact it is encouraging municipalities to adopt and have inspections on their own of buildings. In fact, technically this could be part and parcel of a planning district whereby municipalities, if they go into development plans and will want to have inspections and/or permits for buildings and the like, this would be part and parcel.

However, the legislation provides that the municipalities can request the Department of Labour to take over the inspections and do the inspections on behalf of the municipalities if they so desire, if they are not capable of so doing. But specifically ' it's not intended to do or duplicate what the municipalities are now doing. MR. FERGUSON: Then could I ask the Minister the purpose of sending this particular booklet out? As I understand it, the Minister is saying that if the municipalities require help, the Province will supply, otherwise it's on their own volition to carry on the way they were doing.

Is this correct? MR. URU SKI: That is correct. MR. HEND ERSON: Mr. Chairman, every year since I've been here, there's always been a lot of talk about assessments.

I was just wondering if maybe there couldn't be something done before another year so there was a real study of assessments so that the different people, even within the municipalities and that, really just know all the things that are related to assessments, whether it's related to rural property, town property, whether it's a small holding with a few acres with a building on it, just how they're taxed and then what scale of value - know what I mean - so that it's all rehashed and sized up again so that we can maybe come up with something on assessment that people aren't complaining all the time.

On town planning, there was one thing that's been coming over my mind. Where there's been a change in town planning, where it's been rezoned agriculture or vice versa or something like this. Is there any form of compensation because of a change at any time? I'm thinking of a certain portion now that was, shall we say, laid out in lots, and now it's going to be laid out differently and it will have a different value. Now this is compensation. I know everybody's always been happy to make money when they could, but I was just wondering how this goes. On the Municipal Board, I was concerned about one thing somewhat.

When the Municipal Board, things are referred from this committee here to the Municipal Board, do they notify the person after the decision, setting out clearly his options and when they're to be followed up, or is his lawyer, or is he ... I'd just like a little clearness on this because it just might pop up again by something, I know. MR. URU SKI: On the specifics, Mr.

Chairman, of the Honourable Member for Pembina, two points that he indicated: Whether there is any compensation if there is a down-change in zoning - I don't believe historically, any jurisdiction has ever had any compensation, whether it be down-zoned or up-zoned. That has never been a case, where there's been a zoning change in any jurisdiction that I am aware of. I don't believe any, if there is a zoning change, provided. There may be discussions if development completely is stopped, but as far as changing in zoning for the density of development that may take 1203

Friday,March 25, 1977 place in an area, there never has been and I don't recall any jurisdiction. Secondly, on the Municipal Board' he asked the question, "Does the Municipal Board notify the applicant of his alternatives and notice when the hearing is completed?" My understanding of it is, each applicant is notified directly of the ruling of the Municipal Board and in many cases, in fact I've read judgements that alternatives have been suggested to the applicant as to what course of action he might or might not want to undertake. MR. HENDERSON: ... by registered mail? MR.

URUSKI: I'm sorry, I cannot say whether it's by registered mail but I'm sure that once a hearing is held, the applicant would be aware of the hearing and if there would be no ruling, a phone call to the secretary's office would indicate whether the judgement has been handed down and a judgement would be available, a copy of the Board ruling would be available. But I can't comment on ... I'll take that as notice, whether it's by registered mail. MR.

HENDE RSON: When you're working on it, would you mind setting out the details of how he's given notice, whether it's registered mail and not just notified, you know, by his lawyer, or whether it's from your office here, or both, and any other incidentals that you can in connection with this.

I think I said something about town planning and taking the time that it does and if the people are going to be satisfied with it, and it seems as if we are going to be moving into town planning more and more, but l can see more and more trouble in the years ahead if we really don't getso that we can do a lot of the paper work an awful lot quicker.

By the time anybody takes a notion to build anything on the edge of town or something like this, he's been looking around for a while, he wants to get going and if he's going to be frustrated for a period of maybe four months really not knowing whether it will go through or not, it's just a little too long. l was thinking of a couple of fertilizer deals that went up near town and they were frustrated too by the time it took to know whether they could go ahead.

In connection with the building code, if we go into the planning areas it could be that there would be a central inspector for the whole district checking on the building code Other than that, each municipality is supposed to police itself, is that not right? MR. URUSKI: That is correct. MR.

HENDE RSON: Does this mean that a person would have to have, we'll say one man who was completely familiar with building and how it was done, and he would have to be going from here to there in the municipality checking on buildings because there's other things in the building code like the possible material, the number of steps and the fire escapes, and you know, even if it's these different things, would he have to make several trips or would he just be able to size up the building plans that the architect has drawn and then just come around later?

Does somebody have to check the wiring and and not long after check the fire escapes or, you know, fire devices? MR. URUSKI: It's a commercial building you are talking about? MR. HENDERSON: Yes. MR. URU SKI: He may have to make several trips, that may be the case, and that would be determined by the type of building that is being constructed. It would vary from the type of building that would be under construction. If it's a dwelling, the building inspector would have to make a judgement on the type of building that is going to go up. MR. HENDERSON: How about a garage and machine shop on the farm? MR.

URUSK I: I understand they are not subject to the code, Mr. Chairman, farm buildings. MR. HENDERSON: I think that's all except l would like to reiterate I feel that the Planning Act is going to give a lot of trouble if you don't get things speeded up_ a lot. MR. CHAI RMAN: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. HENRY J. EINARSO N: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to make some comments. My colleague from Pembina, as well as the Member for Gladstone, started on the building code as it is now going to apply to municipalities as of April 1. -(Interjection)- I realize, Mr. Chairman.� just hear me out. I realize, Mr.

Chairman, this is under the Department of Labour, but what the municipalities are saying, the onus is being thrown back on the municipality and in this area, I wonder where does the Minister of Municipal Affairs come into play insofar as his responsibility is concerned? Now, I understand, Mr. Chairman, as of April 1, if a farmer wants to tear down an old building, he has to get a permit. If he wants to construct any kind of a new building, he has to get a permit and the municipalities are wondering, how are they going to police this whole thing, say, if a farmer back on

section 40 or something is going to tear down an old building? I'm wondering what is the reason behind some of these things and I can readily agree and understand, we have had a building code, for instance, in the cities and towns, but out in the country, sometimes we wonder how practical some of these things are? I wanted to throw these questions out as to just, and I realize the building code comes under the Department of Labour, but just since the municipalities say it's thrown back as their responsibility, how does the Minister of Municipal Affairs fit into this whole picture, if any? MR. URU SKI: Mr. Chairman, in discussions with my colleague, and I know there have been 1204

Friday ,March 25, 1977 informational meetings between the Department of Labour and relevant municipalities, that the process that is envisaged is a gradual phasing-in process, it's not that today it is one thing and tomorrow it is a different situation. I understand that how this thing will be worked really has to take the common sense approach that I don't believe that someone is going to be saying that, "Yes, I have an old building to wreck, I will go all over the place to get a permit to wreck the building on my farm," and these kinds of things.

What has been carried on over the years, it's pretty well going to phase itself in and the new buildings in the communities that are being constructed will of course be able to be handled by whatever inspection team the municipality may want to under-take because they have concerns as well with public buildings under their jurisdiction and they would want to have construction in their area of a quality and of a safe nature.

However, if they are not able to undertake, the Department of Labour, as I understand it, is prepared to assist wherever they can in the gradual process of moving in and adopting the building code. MR. EINARSO N: Well, then, it appears, Mr. Chairman, that this is sort of a joint effort between the Minister of Municipal Affairs and the Minister of Labour in bringing this about, well, I mean as far as consultation is concerned, as the Minister indicated. But what he says, the Minister of Labour will give assistance.

Is the financial responsibility totally on the municipality, the financial aspect of all this because, you know, you have to have an inspector, say, within a municipality and we don't know just to be common sense, as the Minister says; I agree with him. Just how practical is it as far as the costs are concerned to a municipality? Heaven knows that they've got sufficient costs now as it is.

Can two or three municipalities get together and hire one inspector to do all the work that has to be done because it may not be practical as far as the economic sense is concerned to have to hire an inspector within a given municipality to do the kind of inspecting that may be ongoing for 12 months from April 1? MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, I'm given to understand that nearly all the municipalities adopted The National Building Code approximately a year or more ago, or even years ago, and that all that the new provincial legislation does is make the National Building Code applicable by law in Manitoba and it requires every municipality to administer the new code.

If it does not have the capacity, as I earlier stated, the Department of Labour will assist and will handle it; it's not something that all of a sudden tomorrow we are going to have to build up a large, new inspection team at all, but I would think that if the municipalities, for example, in the long term and those that are, shall we say, are setting up planning districts, they are inclined as well to have some kind of an inspection team to find out what type of structures and what kind of permits they are going to issue for the development that will take place in their areas.

Most of these will be part and parcel of a joint role of an inspector and a permit-issuer, and likely a building inspector all in one will be the way it will be evolved. But what is envisaged is an evolutionary process over a period of time. MR. EINARSON: Well, then, I would like to ask the Minister, is this the understanding that municipal councils have through the information they would receive through their respective secretaries? MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I understand that the Department of Labour has undertaken meetings with municipal councils and they are discussing all the relevant points with them.

The Department of Municipal Affairs directly is not involved in the setting up of these meetings but the Department of Labour has and is in the process of having regional meetings and going through any explanations and discussions to resolve any concerns that may be had and application of the code to those areas. But the municipalities years ago have adopted the Building Code and this is, again, this legislation is an evolutionary process, step by step. MR. EINARSON: That's fine. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Well, Mr.

Chairman, in wrapping up the Minister's salary or getting to the end of it, I again must impress upon the Minister the need for further study and improvement in the present assessment practices, to see if there isn't some way that we can eliminate the disparity that's in evidence between assessed value, the real value, or the market value of land and the problems that are in evidence between the assessments of our urban areas, our rural areas, and our cities.

I think that the figures that the Member for Birtle-Russell gave here the other night where rural assessment has increased approximately 70 percent in the last eight to ten years, which is backed up and substantiated by the Farm Bureau Brief,

whereas the assessment in the city has approximately changed in a matter of 21 percent, I think those figures are in the Farm Bureau Brief and they have been well researched. There certainly is concern and I know the Minister has some evidence of it. There was a committee established a few years ago, I believe, of reeves that were going to do some study and then I think three or four of them were defeated and the committee disolved itself, I believe, if my memory serves me correctly. We also looked at the rebate system which is part of this government's philosophy and I can 1205

Friday,March 25, 1977 assure you the rebate system is not working fair and equitable at all. I have evidence of all kinds of people who are making twenty, twenty-five grand that are living in old two-storey homes and that, and after the rebate system, they don't pay any taxes or contribute any dollars at all to the system the way that the man down the street who doesn't happen to qualify under those grounds.

The exemption system which is the problems I have here with this community of Ethelbert is another matter that I think has to be resolved or reviewed or studied or come up with some answers because once you get into exemptions, you know, where do you draw the line and where do you start and where do you stop? It's another serious problem, I think, that we in the committee should draw to the Minister's attention.

The other one, of course, is the one, the historical problems of our municipalities today and not all the municipalities are having the same kind of problems, but the one I would like to draw to the attention of the committee and the Minister is those areas east of the Duck Mountain Provincial Park, which may be a special case, but nevertheless, the problems of erosion, of flooding, of big rivers tearing away the banks, and these municipalities just don't have a tax base nor the dollars to deal with these problems, so they are left at the mercy of the government for some form of grant system or dollars in the back door for them to deal with these very very serious problems and I assure the Minister, they are serious.

The drainage that's needed in that area east of the Riding Mountains, it's a big bill of goods and it's going to cost a lot of money. Those municipalities don't have the dollars to do it, so we're just going to walk out and leave it and let the farmland go? The erosions in the town of Ethelbert is a classic example where the Fishing River is slowly but surely eating away the banks of that, and in the next flood in that area or period of high water, there are some building that are going to go down in that river.

And yet the town of Ethelbert doesn't have the money to deal with those matters and how are they going to do that, just going to abandon the country and leave it? So there are some very very serious problems at the municipal level, the high cost of school taxes and the increasing and escalating costs that's on the burdens of our municipalities.

The planning scheme here is another classic example where municipalities are going to have to find some more dollars somewhere and I don't know where they are going to get them because they can't go back and tax the. local landowner any more than he is being taxed at the present time, to raise these dollars.

Another plan that has come out in the last few weeks is the amalgamation of fire departments, the villages and the municipalities together where they are trying now to improve their fire equipment, but nevertheless it's going to cost another four or five mills over a long period of time to put this new equipment in and I have no quarrels with them doing it, but the dollars aren't there. This is the problem, Mr. Chairman.

So those are just a few of the serious problems, and maybe the municipalities in my constituency are in a more difficult problem than some of the others, especially that area east of the Duck Mountain Provincial Park. Sure, I've been dealing with the Minister of Mines and the former Minister of Municipal Affairs on this matter, trying to get his attention to the seriousness, because the municipalities in there cannot possibly, nor can the local government district of Mountain - they don't have the tax base or the tax dollars.

But those problems must be dealt with somehow and I don't know, maybe the Minister can get a group to go in there and sit down with those people and find some way. Whether it's assessment or additional grants and grants, as the Minister knows, can't go on forever because there's only one taxpayer in the province, but those are problems that seem to be at the moment just left standing idle, nobody is doing anything about them.

There is land in that township southeast of the village of Ethelbert where those last two floods, where quarter-sections of land, the topsoil is already gone, now all that's left is gravel and stone. And the municipality doesn't have the bucks to go in and clean up these drains.

There certainly may be evidence where the engineering services-the municipality are using in a lot of cases their own ingenuity and their own engineering and have made some bad judgements on where they placed culverts, and that may be a problem that the Minister should oversee the municipal people, especially in that area where there's so much water flows. In fact, all the water that comes out of the Duck Mountains must flow across that area and get into Lake Winnipegosis and Lake Dauphin, it all flows in an easterly ...

Certainly if there are bridges and things put in the wrong place, naturally it's going to cause excessive problems of erosion. So those are just a few of the things that I leave with the Minister today that are very serious and we can't just walk away, bury our heads in the sand and say, "Forget them and leave them." They are matters that are urgent and deserve the attention of the government and the Minister to see .. . I think that the only answer is that it's got to happen with the co-operation or through the municipal system, to see if it can't be at least alleviated somewhat. I thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMA N: The Honourable Member for Pembina. Mft HENDERSON: I just had one short question. In connection with setting up the planning areas, is there any consideration being given, or can you see a pattern developing from the different 1206

Friday,March 25, 1977 municipalities that are going into it, are they following a watershed area or something like this? Because I almost can foresee watershed areas throughout Manitoba in years to come and I'm just wondering, is the planning by any chance following patterns like that? MR. URUSK!: In some of the areas that discussions have taken place, there are several courses that municipalities have undertaken. Some of them have joined because of land development, rapid land developme nt, and they have joined with other areas in an area where there has been escalating rural residential development.

There are municipalities who are using boundaries of resort areas, like the boundary of a lakeshore where there may be three or four municipalities forming on the lakeshores. And there may be others, and I don't recall any of those that are being discussed, but I'm sure using watersheds could be also a log ical way of forming a district. But it really depends on the municipalities and the characteristics of the problems as the councils perceive them in their own areas, it's really up to the councils themselves. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. J. FRANK JO HNSTO N: Mr.

Chairman, I believe this was brought up earlier, and the Minister mentioned that this particular building by-law is the Department of Labour but he is the Minister of Municipal Affairs. This says that the towns and municipalities will be responsible for the building code in Manitoba as of April lst.

This book was given to them two weeks ago, and if the Minister cares to read the duties and responsibilities of the authority having jurisdiction which is the corporated towns and the municipalities, he will find that they could be sued after April lst because they are going to be responsible for administering that very large Manitoba Building Code that was put out. This is the by-law they've suggested they put through.

Now the Minister of Municipal Affairs has to step in in this regard to take this loading off these people too fast or to see that some system or better system is set up because they're going to have problems by April I, because it says right there, the responsibilities of the authority. Mr.

Minister, I assure you that the municipalities and most of the towns are not anywhere remotely prepared to inspect buildings or larger buildings in any way shape or form, I'm not saying that there shouldn't be or there should be maybe some way of doing it, but at the present time, there's not, and it's going to create quite a turmoil and put a responsibility on them very fast that they're not prepared for. I think the Minister should talk with the Minister of Labour just regarding this and how fast it should be put into effect. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. DAVI D BLAKE: Thank you, Mr.

Chairman, I haven't entered into debate on the Estimates, but I think I would be remiss before we concluded the Minister's salary if I didn't express some ' concern from the municipal people in my area that has been expressed to me. I won't get into taxation, we all know that that's a prime concern in rural areas, the taxation structure, especially the school tax.

One of the areas of complaint or concern that's expressed to me more often is the delay or the red tape that they have to go through in getting decisions from the provincial area on municipal affairs whether it be planning or any other decisions that are required to be made by the Government body, the Provincial Government body. There seems to be a great amount of delay in cutting through the red tape.

In getting planning things approved, whether it be residential subdivisions, sewer extensions , things of that nature, where a decision has to be made, there seems to be a considerable hangup and this is one of the most common complaints that I hear from municipal people; is there not some way they can speed up the decision making in the department. MR. CHAIRM AN: Resolution 87(a). The Honourable Minister. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman' I just want to make a few comments on the remarks of members who have spoken dealing with assessment review and the like, and I appreciate their concerns in this area, however, much of the legislation that has been in effect dealing with exemptions and the like has been in place for many years and likely that there should be a review undertaken and I appreciate the honourable members comments.

But this Legislature on its own a number of years ago was not able to come up with any determination as to which way or which course of action should be undertaken, and I'll certainly take that under consideration. Several members spoke on the delays dealing with the planning legislation and having determinations, and I want to indicate to the honourable members that prior to 1976, there were delays experienced by people bringing in subdivisions of a much longer nature because they had to go to the Municipal Board.

The mechanism that was there prior to 1976 was a much longer period of time for the approval mechanism. Since that time, the speed up of approvals in those cases has been in, as I indicated last night, the average is approximately 40 to 45 days.

However, I understand and I realize that where there was no control whatsoever in lot splits which have created problems that members have raised about buildings going in their areas where they weren't supposed to, and now when a plan of subdivision or a planning statement is brought into an area where there were previously no controls, well there has to be some delays, there is just no doubt about it, from nothing to something, there's going to be a delay and that has to be acknowledged.

But the fact of the matter is, that the simplified application form and the procedures that have been undertaken by the department, are, on behalf of applicants who used to have to go to all the rel evant departments on 1207

Friday,March 25, 1977 their own, that just is not the case, and the Member from Roblin indicated that with the water problems, land erosion problems, I have to agree with him, that those problems are very severe. But frankly I have to say to him, that he should be one member who should be indicating to the councils of that area that they should in effect, form planning districts in that area, because, by the lack of planning those problems that they are encountering now are the direct result of poor land use policies and undertakings by municipal councils and the like in their areas, .

So I would hope that he would be one member that the dollars that they may have to undertake in spending in the planning area, will by far save them much more headaches in the future than they have encountered as a result of mistakes of the past.

The Honourable Member from Sturgeon Creek indicated concern over the building code' I can only comment that as I understand it, municipalities throughout the province have passed resolutions over the years adopting the national building code and I don't believe the Manitoba building code is that much different from the national building code in the standards that are prescribed.

As I understand it' there are meetings now being held between the Department of Labour and municipal ities as to how the transitional period may be handled, and I don't believe that anything is going to change overnight as a result of this legislation. It/ will be a common natural evolution process. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. FERGUSO N: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister would indicate to us if and when we're going to go on the Metric System, to do with municipalities. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. UR USKI: Mr.

Chairman, I'm not sure what municipalities would in effect . .. whichever areas they're responsible for, they would take their course naturally on the advice that is being handed down across the country via the Federal Government. But when you're speaking of direct municipal responsibility, the department no doubt, if you're indicating in tax statements and the like ... MR.

FERGUS ON: Has the department done anything towards educating municipal secretaries, and can the Minister give any indication of when we would be going metric because this is going to be a major undertaking when we go from acres to hectares and etc. MR. URU SKI: I'm advised, Mr. Chairman, that the department is now in a natural transition period of starting to convert the data on an annual basis, not on a holus-bolus conversion. It is a steady process of converting the data. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. BLAKE: Mr.

Chai rman, I just wanted to comment on some of the Minister's remarks whereby I realized how much the planning districts will help areas such as Ethelbert, but I'm sure he's aware that many of the problems created in that particular town are not through the bad planning or bad land use of that particular town, it's something that's happened maybe fifty or hundred miles away, and if that planning area encompasses the whole thing, it might be of some benefit but it's not the immediate problem of that town. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 87(a). The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, I want to just revert for a moment or two, to the earlier discussion about what looks to be a devel oping problem around the St. Andrews Airport with respect to residential growth. I wonder if the Minister has been informed on the activity of the Federal Government in respect to legislation that would take this matter under direct advisement.

I understand that there was an amendment to the Aeronautics Act that was passed on or about March 9th of this year, and it was described as an amendment that would give the Federal Government Transport Department the power to prevent growth near airports and it indicates and the bill says that this power would only be used when Provincial Governments refuse to act and the Federal Government would then act when it was convinced that the airport was endangered. !)r.

Chairman, I imagine this Legislation from the Federal Government is of very immediate concern to any pl anning activities and any control which the Provincial Government is exercising in this area. I wonder if the Minister would comment on this, whether or not he has seen this amendment to the Aeronautics Act and how he would interpret the intent of the Bill to indicate that the Federal Government would step in when he refuses to act. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, I must admit that this is the first I have heard of the amendment that the honourable member is discussing and rather than make a blanket statement on what might or mig ht not be contained in the legislation or whether the Provincial Government will refuse to act ... I believe that the member has raised the matter of development in the vicinity of the St. Andrews Airport and this matter I have undertaken to review with the departments involved, and of course, the implications that it has on the Federal Department of Transport dealing with their possibility of land banking in that vicinit y.

But to specifically indicate what the province is about to do at this point in time, I cannot even venture to com ment positively or negatively on that legislation. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the assurances of the Minister that when planning 1208

Friday,March 25, 1977 amendments are being consi dered and app roved by his department that he will consider how these might relate to recent concerns expressed by the Min ister of Transport, Mr. Lang. The Minister of Agriculture mentioned how this would be done in terms of the techni cal procedures and I understand that the Federal Government would describe this kind of protection of present airpo rts and developing airports as

an Act which would permit them to establish what they would describe as a protection area around these aviation facilities so that if the land in the St. Andrews Airport could be described as an area that should be protected in view of the present traffic density and the future increase of activity in this area, then perhaps that is the way in which this land would be considered by the Federal Government. MR. URU SKI: Mr.

Chair man, just a couple of comments, if I understand the honourable member and what I could read into what he is indi cating, there may be and I have not seen the Bill and I'm informed that my department has just read about it, the amendment, there may be some constitutional problem in jurisdiction as it relates to land use, however, I have undertaken to review that and have the relevant depa rtments bring forth comments as to what the imp lications of that legislation may be on the province. MR. CHAIRM AN: Resolution 87(a). The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Mr.

Chairman, my colleague from Glad stone mentioned the metr ic system and I have one other further comment I'd like to make probably in the form of a question, and I realize the metric system is federal jurisdiction nevertheless, I think that we have a respo nsibil ity as well as provincia l authorities. I'm wondering and the Member from Gladstone asked the Minister if an educational program had been carried out to assist the municipali ties in educating the clerks and secretaries in order they could impart that knowledge maybe to the councillors.

I would like to ask a question, before ever having done that, did they have any consultation with the municipalities and the councils asking them how they felt about the metric system - if they were in agreement with this fantastic transition of measurement in this country and what it is going to cost the people. I would just like to ask the Minister if he had anything along those lines in communication with him or any members -of his office with the respective councillors throughout this province in rural Manitoba? MR.

URU SKI: Mr Chairman, I think the provinces are in the same predicament as the municipa lities about consultation and dealing with the metric system. Generally it is a federal program, the provinces have agreed to co-operate on it, there has been an educational process gone on with the secretary-treasurers and I would believe that the department as well, will be holding further seminars in the future with the elected councillors. We will likely have a topic of that nature on the agenda of those meetings when the new councillors are elected, so, it will be a continuous process of upgrading and education. MR.

CHAIR MAN: Resolution 87(a)-pass; Resolution 87: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty, a sum not exceeding $417,400 for Municipal Affairs-pass. That concludes consideration of the Department of Municipal Affairs. The committee will recess for two minutes to allow the next Minister to come into position. 1209

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY of MANITOBA Friday, March 25, 1977 ESTIMATES - CORRE CTIVE AND REHABI LITATIVE SER VICES MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. D. James Walding (St. Vital): Order please. I would refer-honourable members to Page 33 in their Estimates Book. Resolution No. 64, Corrective and Rehabi litative Services. (

a) Mini sterial

(1) Mi nister's Compensation, Salary and Representation Allowance. The Honourable Minister. HON OURABLE J.R .(Bud)BOYCE: Mr. Chairman, I have provided members of the committee with two pieces of inform ation. One is a program encyclopedia. If you just take a look at it, you'll see that the format is lined up so that it coincides with the appropriation number and it gives the staff man years and dollars allocated to each program for 19 75 -76.

As you understand, I can't give you the figures for '76 until the close of the books at the end of the month, but as we get on line by line, the members of staff will be able to give you the information up until the end of last month. Also, you will see in the format that we have set forth what we are trying to do and also how we're trying to accomplish these goals. In introducing the Estimates of this component of the Department of Health and Social Development, I would suggest to committee members that this is really one of the main concerns in our community. In fact in an

article that was in the Christian Science Monitor recently, they called it the "M ain Silent Issue" because law and order, or peace and security, or whatever you want to call it, is becoming of great concern throughout our society. Committee members will realize that we have little control over our clientele in that we deal with people who are sanctioned by the process of law in the courts.

The difficulty of dealing with people who are held in custody which arises out of the bifurcation of the system between the Federal Government and the provincial governments, as a result of the British North America Act which differentiates between those people who are sentenced to more than two years, being a federal responsibility' and those people who are sentenced to less than two years, being a provincial responsibility. Many people in the community do not understand this, and they also do not understand that all people start off in the provincial system.

Once a person is apprehended and held in custody in a remand situation, which means that somebody has not yet been judged by the courts to be guilty or innocent, that they are held in a provincial institution. One of the things that we are trying to work out with the Federal Government and through our Deputy Mi nister and the other Deputy Ministers across the country, we are trying to get the Federal Government to agree that they should be more involved in paying the financial burden for those people who ultimately become a federal responsibility.

I intend to keep these initial remarks brief so that we can spend more time on the details, and with the background information that I have provided members, maybe you can come to an understanding of what we are trying to accomplish in this area.

But I would mention that the philosophy of the government is (1) to fulfil the conditions of imposed legal sanctions in a responsible and consistent manner; (2) to ensure the protection of society from those individuals who evidence a present or potential danger to other persons or property; (3) to recognize the essential worth and dignity of every individual involved in the criminal justice system; (4) to provide maximum opportunity, and I repeat that, to provide maximum opportunity for the rehabilitation and treatment of the offender, and the 5th one, that I think we really have to focus on as a society in the up coming years, is to involve the entire Manitoba community in the maintenance of law and order, the preven tion and reduction of crime and delinquency, and the provision of adequate resources required to explore every avenue necessary to correct the relationship between offender and offended.

In order to develop and implement a correctional system which reflects this philosophy, a major effort is required to reduce the emphasis on incarceration and custodial care as the primary method in dealing with cri minal activity. But I would interject that those people who should be in custody, should be in custody. Non-institutional or community based correctional programs are being developed and implemented to provide a wider range of sentencing alternatives to the courts.

This process requires redevelopment and restructuring of existing institutional programs, continuing assessment of the needs of the offender, and ongoing evaluation of the rehabilitative and effectiveness of the programs.

During discussion of my colleague, the Minister of Health's Estimates in the House - I'm sorry, I don't recall - it was either the Member for Fort Garry or the Member for Rhineland asked, "How do you evaluate the effectiveness of your program?" One of the things that I'm trying to do, perhaps I'll have it available for members before the end of this Session' because it's taking more work than I had anticip ated, but as we get into the Estimates, you will see that there are a goodly number of young people who are involved with the juvenile system, and from the time that young people are involved until they're 50, 60 years old, I think that this long-range analysis of what we're doing in the total system is the only way that we can truly evaluate programs.

Because it should be how many people 12 10

Friday,March 25, 1977 are we either keeping out of the system, or how much impact are we having on the recidivism rate within the system. As a highlight within the ministry, we are attempting to provide co-operative leadership in all aspects of the criminal and juvenile system, their liason in consultation with the police, the judiciary, the private sector, and all levels of government. In this regard, Mr.

Chairman, the co-operation that we have had with all the provinces, and the Federal Government in trying to resolve some of these difficult problems has really impressed me in the two years that I have been involved.

Under the former Solicitor-General, the Honourable Warren Allmand, he established the continuing committee of Deputy Ministers, which means that the Deputy Solicitor-General, with all the Deputy Ministers from the provinces, get together periodically to try and deal with the bifurcation of the system, the two year rule, and also to save taxpayers dollars through the non-duplication of research projects or experimentation. As I mentioned in the House the other day, in response to a question, my associate Deputy Minister, Dr.

Banman is in Regina at the moment at one of these meetings, in which they will be addressing themselves to, among other things, young people in conflict with the law. But the co operation we have had from the Federal Government, the staff and the ministries, has been one of complete co-operation. • We announced, and perhaps you would like to focus on that in detail later on, the arrangements we have made with the Federal Government as far as training staff to staff the institutions as they come onstream and also to upgrade the current staff. So Mr.

Chairman, with these brief remarks, I present the Estimates of the Ministry of Corrective and Rehabilitative Services for the consideration of the members of the committee. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 64(a)

(2) Salaries. The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. BLAKE: Mr. Chairman, I just wondered if the Minister might, for the benefit of the committee, introduce the panel of people from his department that is here for back-up for him so that we might know who we're dealing with and which areas they are respo nsible for. MR. BOYCE: Dr. Tavener is the Deputy Minister. I'm sorry, there is one correction in this thing that I gave you. On Page 2, as of Wednesday, Perry Kelly is Assistant Deputy Minister within the Department of Health and Social Development, Ministry of Corrective and Rehabilitative Services.

How's that for a title? A MEMBER: I didn't catch that. MR. BOYCE: Perry Kelly is Assistant Deputy Minister. Stewart Hunter is Director of the Juvenile System, and Jerry Dragan is the Director of the Probation

Section of the Ministry. Thanks for pointing that out to me. MR. BLAKE: That's fine, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRM AN: Resolution 64(a)(2)-pass; 64(a)

(3) Other Expenditures. The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: I wonder if the Minister could give us a breakdown on these other expenditures on this item here, Mr. Chairman. MR. BOYCE: The breakdown of 7(a), the whole thing is -o f course we leave my 15 ,600 until later - the other salaries include a secretary and an Executive Assistant and the expenses relative thereto. MR. EINARSON: Are there any travelling expenses involved in this? MR. BOYCE: Yes, there is Mr. Chairman.

Travelling Expenses, Printing and Stationery, Postage of my office, Auto Mileage, Publication and Subscriptions and Postage, Express Charges, and Travelling. Travelling, as I understand it, was 11 ,000 for the office. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 64(a)(3)- pass; Resolution 64(

b) Administration,

(1) Salaries. The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: I wonder if the Minister would explain to the committee the administration, we're administrating the Child Welfare Act. What other Acts are you administering? MR. BOYCE: No, the Child Welfare Act is under the Minister of Health. There's the Correction Act and the Alcoholism and Foundation Act. MR. McKENZIE: The salaries - this staff that's mentioned in here, are they all functioning out of your office or are they interlaced with the Department of Health? MR. BOYCE: That's a good question.

I notice the Member for Fort Rouge said that it was somewhat confusing. As you will see in that book, the staff that operates directly under my ministry is set forth on Page 2. Most of the capa city for financing, payroll and all the rest of that, is in the Department of Health and Social Development, which functions throughout both ministries. The accounting and pay-outs relative to vouchers, purchases and that sort of thing functions for the whole department, so that we don't dupli cate staff. MR. McKENZIE: That's all I have at the moment. MR. CHAIR MAN: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F.

JO HNSTON: Mr. Chairman, just a quick expla nation from the Minister. It says, "Administration Services necessary to planning and operation of the Ministry programs." I would 1211

Friday,March 25, 1977 ask, what are the Ministry programs, if that means the other programs that are listed below such as Probation and Parole Services, Care and Treatment, but are there any other programs that are presently going on? MR. BOYCE: I don't know if the Member for Sturgeon Creek was here when I passed out this other document. If you look in the index of this document, you'll see Program Review Unit, Appropriation 97(f). It's on Page 4. This gives you the breakdown of the programs relative to that component, the dollars and the staff man years. MR. F. JOHN STON: Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The programs are listed here. I just would like Probation and Parole Services. That's the next one on the item, so it's basically the the programs that are li sted in our Estimates as well. MR. BOYCE: Yes. This is a considerable amount of money, I realize, and one of the direct results of having this capacity in what we hope to put in place in Brandon, the cost of that has been decreased by some $2 million by having this capacity there. The negotiations that are necessary are quite complex, especially when you get involved with the Federal Government.

A for instance is where this capacity is involved right directly at the moment. As you are aware, that the province has entered negotiations to take over the operation of the Public Safety Building as a Remand Centre effective as of the end of the month and this is where senior staff and secretarial help and the rest of them are involved in - it's a small group of people which can be deployed, you know, for this type of a problem as well as do work in development of programs and the rest of it. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHN STON: That's why I asked the question.

These programs that are listed here do have budgetary items within the Estimates but we have $1 36,000 last year and an increase to $194,000 on this parti cular item and the expansion of that particular area, the Minister has explained one part of the budgetary item as being people who can go in and negotiate and as you say, get ready to move into the Safety Building etc., but are there not more that they are basically doing in this Estimate? MR. BOYCE: Perhaps I could best answer the question for the member by giving a for instance.

Part of that increase is a transfer over to the ministry of a couple of people that we used to call school inspectors, so that was reflected in a reduction in that particular department by, I believe it was two staff man years and one of these people has been deployed to work out the relationship between young people who are in difficulty and the school system.

Through the past year we have held meetings with the judges and the school superintendents and with other people that are involved, to try and build lines of communications and when we get down to the probation end of it - you have a group of people who are involved in delivering the program and they, you know, see that program goes on as well as they can. lf you want to modify that, then you have to deal with the local authorities and to organ ize this and have it come about is where that increase is allocated. MR. F. JOHN STON: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister may have opened up an entirely new subject here when he says the school inspection is now under his control or two ex-school inspectors work there and they are presently working with, let's say enforcement people, to discuss the problems of youth in your area, I think. What two were they, Mr. Min ister, could I ask? MR. BOYCE: Mr. John Bothe and Mr. Al Hellyer. MR. F. JOHN STON: Thank you. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. BLAKE: Mr. Chairman, I had an observ ation more than anything. I think this is a very informative booklet that has been put before us.

It would have been most helpful if we could have had it a few days ago, where we might have gone through it and digested much of the information here. It would have been most helpful in questioning the Minister because it's well marked. We know what

section pertains to the various items in his Estimates and it would have been most helpful if we would have had this some time ahead of the Estimates being brought in and I just wondered if, I realize that the Mini ster might not have an opportunity to bring his Estimates in again, but if that should happen, if he could let us have this information a little sooner, that we mi ght have time to study it before we got questioning his Estimates. MR. BOYCE: Mr. Chairman, first of all I apologize to the committee for not having it ready, I just got it the day before yesterday myself, completed. I'm sorry.

But to his second point, I don't foresee any change in the administration of the province. MR. CHAIRM AN: Resolution 64(b)(1). The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHN STON: I'm getting the code going and I compli ment the Minister on this too, but ?(

b) according to the program, Marriage Conciliation Services. Is this something that is new to your department in the past year, or is it something that has been expanded on? MR. BOYCE: Of course, both the Member for Sturgeon Creek and I are completely out of order, we're not down there yet, but in response to your question, the prior administration made some relatively wise decisions. They decided to transfer this component out of the Attorney-General's office over to the Department of Health and Social Development. With it were the conciliation officers 1212

Friday,March 25, 1977 ;..; : an d they are actually administratively responsible to our Director of Probations, Dr. Dragan. lt is a � little complex in that the administration of maintenance orders are under Dr. Dragan and Mrs. Milne, � -but the enforcement of it goes back to the Clerk of the Court. Mr. Steer. But the administration of it, i -the forma lity of dealing with the people, if you want some details I can ask Dr. Drag an to provide us ,..,.;._with specifics on numbers and the rest of it. But the flows of money are dealt with through this • component . ��- MR. F.

JOHNSTON: Did I understand the Minister to say that the department is concerned with � administration orders, such as payments that are coming to a separated couple that the judge has iJJaid down. �. � MR. BOYCE: Well, under the Family Cou rt, if people are in some kind of difficulty as far as their 'marriage is concerned, they go through a process, if you will, and without prejudice I would say that ""'t 'ab out half of the people who come in contact with the conciliation officers come to some kind of a �l·mutual understanding. lt is not necessary to go through the court process.

But in the final analysis, for those people who there has to be an adjudication, and an order is made by the court, then the � processing, the bookkeeping, the dealing with the people is done by I believe it's 15 staff that are � allocated to this. But then if somebody is in default maintenance order, then it goes into the r�enfor cement component which is under the Attorney-General's department. lt's a law enforcement �.aspect. � _' MR. F.

JOHNSTON: Well, that satisfies me, that the law enforcement if the person defaults on these moneys then I would say that your department would have to be very concerned at the amount of defaulting that we are getting on maintenance orders at the present time.

Sitting in the Family Law mmittee I kind of had the feeling that if we could have solved the problem of about 72 percent of fellows, I think that was the figure, that were skipping - Pete can correct me if I'm wrong, it was a high figure wasn't it- that were not paying the maintenance that was laid down, we might have one of the biggest problems we had in that area as far as that's concerned. I wonder could re be a better sort of a system. He often thought maybe we should be working with the Federal rnment to be able to get at them through tax reports or something of that nature.

Is there a better , or a different way we should be doing it, so that we can get these people to pay and not skip. We that if they even go to Saskatchewan, another jurisdiction, we're out dollars. I realize, Mr. rman, I'm straying a bit but it does get into his department and I think lt is a serious problem. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. The Minister has pointed out that the matter of enforcement does under the purview of a different department. The Honourable Minister. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairman, I hope that I can stay in the purview of this department by ng that the department that works on the orders, etc. must be fairly disappointed in the fact that fellows are not making the payments that this department suggests or has laid down or the rt lays down and have they any concern in this respect or any ideas of changing or mmendations to make it better or something of that nature. · MR. BOYCE: Well, yes, we are, I would suggest, Mr.

Chairman, in order in that the Attorney l's depa rtment being more of a law enforcement component, a number of projects we in conjunction with the Attorney-General's department in that our staff does an awful lot of and I share the member's concern. I would just give him - perhaps he could take a look, a breakdown of the program itself and the statistics of the number of people who are dealt with ng the year.

We have reciprocal agreements, I believe, with two American jurisdictions, being York and California I understand, and in the other provinces and we are currently looking at this of it and in more of a bill collection process- perhaps our colleague from Wolseley can give some advice in this regard - but it has traditionally been a law enforcement process. Some mmendations have come forth that would be considered more of a bill collection process, which re effective in some jurisdictions.

As I recall it, out of the sums of money that are collected on lnTr:•rr.�>m .• =>nt of maintenance orders in American jurisdictions, I believe one-third of it is in Minnesota of the effectiveness of their procedures and we are looking closely at that because I share member's concern in this regard. MR. CHAIRMAN: the Honourable Member for Wolseley. · MR. WILSON: Yes, Mr. Chairman, this is an area that I spoke about last year, of course and had several questions of the Minister during the session, but in my experience in talking to people I first of all I should ask the question, what training do these people have?

The Minister has there was 15 people involved in this figure of $210,700.00. History says there is one and ten counsellors. Where do the other four people fit in? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. BOYCE: Well, perhaps staff can advise me, you know, where those people sit in. �e- -u1D. WILSON: Assuming that it may be 11 rather than 15 .. . w��' MIR. BOYCE: lt's 11 professionals and 4 clerical. MR. WILSON: Oh, four clerical. - MR. BOYCE: All the staff has broad experience and they all have acquired Master of Social Work 1213

Friday ,March 25, 1977 Degrees . MR. WILSON: So in other words all these people who are marriage counsellors have a maste rs in social work? How many people did they intervi ew last year, the eleven experts. MR. BOYCE: I'm sorry I gave the member a copy, it's on the second page of this. MR. WILSON: While we're waiting for the answers to how many couples or individuals they interviewed, would the Minister care to comment on a suggestion that I'm going to make that, what makes these marriage counsellors experts other than their degree, I realize somebody has to make a decision.

What would he say to the charge that they are becoming agents for Legal Aid.

By that, 1 mean it seems that people that have come to me and complained have said that they go there with a problem and immediately the marriage counsellor appoints a lawyer to each of them and the danger here of appointing the Legal Aid lawyers so quickly, I'm going to suggest is that because it's fee generating, it's to their benefit, rather than bring the family unit together, to continually throw them into confronting situations in the courts which can never be resolved or reconciliated. ! would like to see the Marriage Counsellors bring in Legal Aid lawyers as a last resort, rather than the suggest ion that has been made to me, rightfully or wrongfully, that they are becoming really agents for Legal Aid.

MR. BOYCE: Well, first, Mr. Chairman, they don't bring in anybo dy . Anybody in the community who wants to apply for Legal Aid is entitled to apply. Now whether they should have it or not, that's something perhaps we could debate under the Attorney-General's Estimates relative to provision of Legal Aid services. But nevertheless, they themselves don't bring in lawyers. If there is a question of law, then people who are charged with that responsibility, to advise others on legal points, are lawyers.

And it's still the position of our society, as expressed under the Law Society Act that, to practice law you have to be a member of the bar and all the rest of it. Even in the Legislature if . somebody asks us a legal question, we always say that we are not lawyers and even if the person happens to be, in fact, a lawyer, he doesn't practice law in the Legislature. But I don't want to get off in . the Attorney-General's estimates as far as the provision of legal aid is concerned.

The Family Court with this component, was established under the prior administration and these people were put in place to try as best they could to deal with people that were having marital difficulties. Of the 6,000 people that were dealt with last year, over half of them did not have legal counsel, they were able to come to some arrangement just by sitting down with the assistance of an impartial person, resolve their difficulties and work out satisfactory arrangements. So that whether people should have access to legal aid is over in the Attorney-General's department. MR.

WILSON: Then maybe I had better be a little more specific. My concern is that you say that maybe 3,000 couples or, they may not have all been couples but, a staff of 11 people had a work load of approximately 3,000 or 6,000, whatever. Did they go out or did all those people come to Tuxedo . Boulevard, did all these people come to the marriage counsellors or did the marriage counsellors go. _ out looking for business or looking for people with problems? Did they hold meetings rn churches and that type of thing and say we're going to be here this week?

Was there an outreach program, or are all these people housed, stationary in Tuxedo Boulevard? How are these couples referred to Tuxedo Boulevard if the marriage counsellors remain there, or is there an outreach program? MR. BOYCE: lt's a service provided on demand through the courts, Mr. Chairman. MR. WILSON: On demand through the courts, then. Wouldn't it be better if these marriage - counsellors could deal with some of these people before they went to the courts? MR.

BOYCE: About half of them, as I said earlier twice, they are diverted out of the courts because somebody petitions the court or goes to the court or seeks legal advice, and lawyers themselves are officers of the court so that if somebody contacts a lawyer or files a petition before the court, then they would be involved with these people and as I said earlier, half of them are diverted out of the system by sitting down and with the assistance of a third party being able to work out their difficulties. MR.

WILSON: Then I'll give you a particular case involved here because either the Minister is . .. well, anyway, what he could tell me after I say this, is whether in fact, I do believe couples are referred by individuals in the community to marriage counsellors. I don't believe it's just through the courts. I would like to give the case of a chap I have an extensive file on who came to me very annoye d at the marriage counsel system. He was a fellow who was working for the Provincial Government, had a Masters in Political Science and married a Jamaican girl who was in London, England and brought her over here.

She had some language difficulty and could not of course obtain employment and she was given a job as an assistant hairdresser. He had an argument witt, her about phoning home to Kingston. Jamaica with long-distance calls and she immediately was taken by some people to Tuxedo Boulevard and it was suggested to me that within the space of the interview a legal aid la wyer was contacted and she applied for a certificate and the man, to his great unbelief, was drag ged through the courts and divorced in a very quick fashion.

He then -becameso extremely upset with the. system that instead of bringing families back together, because of the fact that the ma rriage� counsellors were really. just in his opinion. agents for legal aid, that what the thrust was today was to. rather than bringing the family unit and the home together, the system as it is right no w is encouraging, unknowingly, through the pa rticipation of lawyers and courts in domestic dispute s, in_ having a separation order filled out and the final result is divorce. 1214

, Friday,March 25, 1977 In other words, I'm trying to suggest to the Mi nister that under this section, Marri age Counsellor Services, that we must try to avoid the introduction of the cou rts and the lawyers and thi s to me would be the prime goal, as a layman, of the marriage counsellor. I'm not trying to tell hi"l how to do hi s job, I'm just expressing an observation from case hi stories. To make a lon g story short, Mr. Alexander began -(Interjection)- well, he began writing th reatening letters to the different people invo lved who caused hi m to lose hi s wife. He was fired from hi s job with the province.

Eventually he was picked up and jailed for hi s threatening letters and hi s lawyer had him declar ed insane and he is now a very defeated man. He cannot beli eve what has happened to hi m and he blames the system and he feels that he was then kept away from hi s wife so he couldn 't talk to her; he is not a violen t person. These are the tragedies that come out of a marri age counsellor appoi nting lawyers who have a fee-generating, they have a sole purpose, they are a gun-for-hire, they do n't worry about the personali ties invo lved; their only interest is generating fees and I suggest to yo u, Mr .

Mi nister, that my comm ents should be taken to these marri age counsellors and asking them for a rebuttal. MR. BOYCE: Mr. Chairman, I thi nk I would be completely out of order if I com mented on the judgements of the courts. The Memb er for Wolseley can com ment as he sees fit, but nevertheless, if somebody is di vorced as a result of a court action, I'm not going to sit here and second-guess a judge. If a judge has sentenced somebody to jail, I'm not goin g to second-guess hi m unless it's through the proper appeal procedures.

The policy of thi s government is that the most impor tant component in our society is the family unit and every effort is made to try and help people resolve their di fficulties. When I say that we have had great success in thi s, I am not braggi ng on behalf of the excel lent staff that we have in place in thi s compon ent. They resolve over half of the diffi culti es without goi ng through the court process. MR.

WILSON: Would the Mi nister care to comment on a statement that is made here which in my opinion leads to a great deal of power being put in the hands of a civil servant. lt says, "Where the custody of the child ren is contested , to ensure that the person best able to meet the ongoing needs of the chi ldren is awarded custod y. " Wouldn 't this be a contradiction because on one hand the Min ister says he is not going to second-guess the courts but here he is saying that the influence of his staff's recom mendation has a great bearing on what the court may decide.

Doesn't this take away from the responsibili ty of a judge who has years of experience and who, if we are going to have any finali ty to these things, has to make a deci sion? . I'm worried about the possible biases that might happen if you have a woman social worker or for that matter a person who has their own particular bias and is given this power to be able to decide where childr en of separated famili es go. To me, I wou ld be very concerned. Does this really mean these workers, these marriage counsellor s, have that power? MR.

BOYCE: Well, the member answers hi s own question when he says that the judge has the '!Power to decide. As far as who he sol icits ad vice from, it may be a social worker, it may be a probation �fficer, it may be a concerned individ ual. They soli cit advice from many areas relative to any particular case. There is a cause celebre in the newspapers at the moment relative to the placement of sc me chi ld ren. These decisions are most di fficult. I do n't say this, Mr. Chairman, through you to the committee, to curry favo ur with the judi ciary, but neverthe-less these men are but human beings and they wil l err.

As Sirica said, "I may err, but I'm never in doubt. " - fie have to, in my judgem ent, in my view, at least in thi s body, support the judi ci ary process as we undt"rstand it, so that who the judge may sol icit opinions from, that is hi s prerogative. The function of the ccurts is that they draw on many people. If I just may, Mr. Chairman ... I don't know if you are famili ar with how probation started in North American in the first place, and thi s is somewhat related to the point that is under review.

An ind ivid ual went to a court in Massachuse tts and said , "Your Honour, I think I can help thi s man if you d on't send him to jail. " For the rest of hi s li fe, that man dealt with over 2,000 individ uals because he worked up a relationship with the court that there was trust, that when he offered hi s op inion to the court, the court believed hi m. He said , "I think I can help this person. " He made mistakes but nevertheless he dealt with 2,000 individ uals.

"Yes, I can help; I th ink I can help," or "No, I can't help." And thi s is the kind of ·function that takes place before the courts, through the probation officers, through the concili ation officers. I ask co mmittee members to remember that these are concil iation officers. Many people hang up shingles in the com munities calli ng themselves marriage counsellor s. MR.

WILSON: I wonder, possibly the Mi nister misunderstood or what, but when I talked aboutthe 3,000 couples or the 6,000 people, he mentioned that these were people referred by the courts yet on Page 21 it says, "Assistance to persons who seek counsel ling without court involvement, " and it says, "pre-court counselli ng. " So would n't it be a fantastic sav ing to the tax-payers if we can avoid these situations, going to the court system which of course is a staging where there is a lot of cost involved, not just the court cost, the witnesses, the judge, the lawyers and everyth ing else? Shouldn 't more 1215

Friday,March 25, 1977 evidence be put on pre-court counselling and without court involvement by the marriage counsellors .,. so that out of the 6,000 people you deal with, maybe only 400 would end up in court. To me, that would justify the program and I think the Minister should be congratulated if he has any figure s which ... how many of the 6,000 ended up in court? MR. BOYCE: Perhaps I should give a stipulative definition of a court.

Probation officers are officers of the court. bailiffs are officers of the court; defence attorneys are officers of the court; prosecution attorneys are officers of the court; judg es are officers of the court. All these people are officers of the court. So that when I refer to courts, I refer to any component of the court system. So that if somebody goes to a probation officer, they are talking to this man in his capacity as being an officer of the court; that they don't go through the actual sit down with a judge and that part of it, that's part of the court process. MR.

WILSON: Then of course the wording here is misleading because it says, "Without court involvement" and "pre-court counselling. " I assumed that ... we won't get into that. the Minister has explained it. MR. BOYCE: I'm glad the member points that out to me, Mr. Chairman. I agree with him that it should be worded a little more specific than that because of the definition that I have given him, you're absolutely correct. MR.

WILSON: I wondered what these marriage counsellors do where young people come and want to get married; do they have an outreach where they go and visit these parents who have refused to give them permission to marry? lt says here that when young people seek permission to marry, they try to counsel these people. Do they try to counsel them in or out of marriage? Do they interview the parents? What is their role? MR. BOYCE: I don't know if I would be completely out of order by answering the question that the member wants answered by giving a personal experience.

When somebody came to me and asked me what were the problems involved in becoming a rabbi, I tried to best answer his qu estion relative to him. I happen to be a Christian by personal persuasion, so that when somebody is functioning in a "professional manner" it is incumbent upon him to try to give the best possible advice to that individual in the circumstances in which they find themselves.

So I can't answer that question any more than to give the generality of it because with one individual it may be in their professional judgement the best advice or best involvement to say "y es." In another situation, it may be "no. " Professionalism is a question which is and has been under review for quite some time as to how it serves our society. When a person is functioning as a doctor, what should we expect of him? So what should we expect of a social worker in a particular situation?

So I really can't answer the member's question any more specific than that because it would have to be relative to a specific case. MR. WILSON: Could I ask the Minister, does he know if these marriage counsellors go out and visit the parents or is their role .. . as I say, I realize each case, but let me jus t be specific, do they g9; out and interview the parents when the parents have refused permission to allow them to g�t married? MR. BOYCE: I would have to su ppose, Mr. Chairman. that in some instances they would. MR.

WILSON: Then I wanted to talk to the Minister, he suggested that the enforcement of these maintenance orders have been given such low priorities by some officials that we have to look to other means to collect these maintenance orders. He su ggested bill collectors and of course in Manitoba that would mean that you would get a very poor percentage of results because c;f the consumer protection laws and the fact that Manitoba is a debtor's haven.

However, I do think if•nere's something, if the Minister feels that taxes are important to collect, and municipal government have the right of seizure under taxes. if they could give the right of seizure for maintenance orders, then I think you could enforce them. In other words, if the runaway spouse or the father might be driving a big Cadillac and live in a penthouse full of furniture, I think that he would certainly obey the maintenance order if he was confronted by the right, either through the court bailiff or through �' private bailiff, the right of seizure. � This. to me, would hit home.

There's nothing like hitting the pocketbook to get people to pay their maintenance orders. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. The time being 12:30, I am leaving the Chair. The.Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: If I could just, by way of notice through you, Sir, to the Minister and his staff, indicate that among other information that I would like to solicit is the populations in the various correctional institutions as well as the rehabilitation camps as listed on Page 30 of the report. Perhaps just have it available. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Committee will stand recessed until 2:30 this afternoon. 1216

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY of MANITOBA Friday, March 25, 1977 ESTIMATES - HEALTH AND SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Last evening we completed Resolution 62 but inadvertently I did not call the motion tor the passing of the item in whole. So I will at this time do that. Resolution 62 - Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $81 ,747 ,300tor Health and Social Development-pass. 1 wou Id refer honour able members to Page 32 in their Estimates Book. Resolution 63 Fitness and Amateur Sport (

a) Directorate

(1) Salaries $91 ,000.00. The Honour able Minister of Health and Social Development. MR. DESJARDI NS: Mr . Chairman, if I could have the attention of the members of the opposition tor a minute I'd like to make a suggestion. I think that if we are going to have a complete debate on fitness and amateur sport there is other information that is not provided here. For instance the revenue to the department from the lottery and what is being done with this lottery.

So I wonder if we could start by having what we have in front of us in the Estimates and then the revenue from the lottery. l'll distribute some sheets, some information. And then after we finish what is in the Estimates, this resolution, we can go onto anything that deals with the Advisory Co uncil on Fitness and Amateur Sports, the Man itoba Games, the Refit and Interdepartmental Committee. So if we could try to follow this carefully on the administratio n, and so on, and then we could have ... I'll have some information that I'll distribute. MR. SPEAKER: Resolution 63(a) (1 ) -pass.

The Honour able Member for Crescentwood. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, perhaps the Minister might give us a statement or bring us up to date on 6(

a) and I believe that is where the funding for the Summer Games at Neepawa were last year and he perhaps might tell us the successes of the Games and if they are going to be carried on in the future and if so will they carry on with similar sports activities that they had at the Neepawa Games and just bring us up to date as to what the future of those games are. MR. DESJARD INS: Mr .

Chairman, if my honourable friend had been listening I suggested that this is not the item. lt's not covered under this item and I will discuss this and give him the information after we finish that part of the Estimates where I'll give you the information on the revenue from the lottery and that's where it's from, from the lottery revenue, and then any question, we'll discuss the Advisory Council on Fitness and Amateur Sports, the Manitoba Games, the Refit and In terdepartmental Committee.

This is only the salary of the staff and the expenditure to run that, and then when that is passed, the Games development, I'll explain that and give you detail on that if you wish. '. . MR. BR OWN: I wonder if the Minister could tell us how many people are in the staff at the present 1me. MR. DESJAR DINS: Mr. Chairman, I don't mind at all but at the request of the Leader of the Qlpposition we broke that down and we gave everybody in the House the sheet and now you know w,e're go ing through that again. That's fine. That's the right of the honourable member. There are six people here.

The y include the director, the assistant director, two games consu ltants, one administrative officer, and one secretary. "MR. CHAIR MAN: Resolution 63(a)(1 )- pass; 63(a)

(2) Other Expenditures $99,600.00. The Hoo our able Member tor Crescentwood. p,tR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, again I'm somewhat confused because the Minister has sort of cros�ed us up and limited us in our questioning because he has asked that we leave certain things until he has brought in the financial aspect of the funding of various programs. My colleague, the Member from Rhineland, asked about the numbers of persons involved in this department. Do the various recreational consultant s throughout the province come within this particular aspect of this depttrtment. · MR. DESJARDINS: Mr .

Chairman, I don't kno w why my honourable friend could be confused, and 'I am not trying to throw a curve at him. This is not the item. We have a method of proceed ing in this ....... House if we are going to have any decent debate. I'm just suggesting that we follow this very closely, and then the information on Games, and on the other things will come out. This is strictly the six people at the directorate, and we are on number two now, other expenditures, this is to run that office. Strictly administration. MR. STEEN: Mr.

Chairman, perhaps the Minister could outline some of the services that are provided by the directory and some of the sports organizations that have been taking advantage of it in the past year. MR. DESJARDINS: Well I guess we are going back, Mr . Chairman, to salaries. I thought we had passed salaries. All right.

These people liaise with the provincial sport associations and national sport agencies including Sports Canada, Coachi ng Association of Canada, Canadian Olympic Association, Canada Games Cou ncil, The 19 79 Canada Games Society in Brandon, etc., develop and implement provincial and interprovincial games programs. These are the six people that 1 1217

Frlday,March 25, 1977 mentioned. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 63(a)(2)-pass; 63(a)

(3) Games Development Grants $144,000.00. The Honourable Minis ter of Health and Social Development. MR. DESJARDINS: On this item I want the members to make sure ... lt's made up of three ... I think it is the 1976, and 1978 Mani toba Games. That is to assist in preparing for these games. There is $25,000.00. There is a 1977 Canada Games in Newfoundland. There is seventeen sports associations. That is $34,000.00. And there is also an item under this of 1979 Canada Games Brandon to seventeen sports associations for $85,000.00.

Now I would like to say that this was printed before there was other moneys available to do this and this will be a transfer. I'd want the members of this House to know that this $85,000, I have the permission to transfer it to Fitness, for fitness programs, because the budget was quite low there and I will. But this is not taking anything away from the seventeen sports associations that will participate in the Canada Games at Brandon. That will come somewhere under the lottery and I'll explain that when I distribute the sheets showing the revenue.

So this should be $144,000 less $85,000.00. lt should be $59,000 under that. MR. STEEN: The Minister mentioned $25,000 for the Man itoba Games. Can I ask the Min ister at this time as to what is the future of the Man itoba Games. He did mention Dauphin the other day but can he go on into some more detail on the future ofthem. l'm not talking about the financial aspect. I'm talking about are they going to be continued on every second year, and what are their anticipated successes. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, for the third time, I will discuss that very fully in the proper time.

This is strictly funds to assist the provincial sport associations in their preparation in participating. This is not the financing of the games or where the policy of the games will be determined.! will, there is no doubt, I repeat I give assurance, I will give full coverage to the Manitoba Games and entertain any questions that the member might have. MR. STEEN: Well then I have a question to you, Mr. Chairman.

Could you tell me when the Min ister, at what item will he bring that in and what item can we question him on it because it won't be long before we'll be off the item altogether and he'll say now we're on the Mi nister of Corrective Services budget and it's too late to ask a question. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, when we started I suggested to the members. There was nobody who seemed to be against that. I give my word to the honourable member that before we leave Fitness and Amateur Sport he will have a complete report. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Chairman, just to clear up my own confusion, I must say that I share the confusion of the Honourable Member for Crescentwood now. Is the Min ister saying to us that w1. cannot ask any of these questions until we get to his Salary item? All right. Then the answer we wan , Mr. Chairman, is: Would you name the resolution, the vote, and the item that that Member f< r Crescentwood can ask his questions under? MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, for the fourth time, there is a certain amount of money t�'at comes in from the lottery that is not incorporated in this at all.

I will give the added information that (...e have never received in this House before. I will pass out the information. That is something that I said before we started to make sure that we have a thorough debate on everything and that will com� as soon as we finish this, before we pass motion 63, when we fin ish (c), I will give the information, we can discuss the revenue of the lottery, just the revenue part of the lottery to the department and j will explain where these programs come from on that. There is quite a bitof money that is not, if I don't do this that will not be accounted for.

We will just be looking at what is in the Estimates here and then 1 could get away without reporting on the lottery or what we are doing with the lottery money and 1 don't think that's fair. I am trying to be helpful. I am not trying to hide anything at all. I took it that my suggestion was accepted. If not, fine. Ask your question anywhere but I ai'Tl not going to jump from one to the other.l will answer it in proper time but I will answer all thequestion:sor try to. MR. SHERMAN: That is acceptable up to a point. I recognize that the Minis ter is putting it in the� spirit of being helpful.

I am not challenging that but the help isn't getting through to us on this side of the House. 1 want to know what particular item ... . Is the Minis ter telling me that we can ask these questions under 63(c) (3)? If so, that's fine, but just let's know what item because otherwise it is going to go by and we will never get the questions asked. MR. DESJARDINS: lt won't go by. lt was a suggestion that I made to be helpful and in fact I took the trouble of listing the things that definitely would be mentioned under that, would be studied.

First of all 1 will distribute sheets to everybody in the House on the revenue from the lottery to this department, to this branch, and then we will look at the money, we will look at where the money was spent, which was never reported in this House before. not officially.

We will go with the money that is being committed and what is left, what we will do with that, very thoroughly, and I will try to answer all the questions and then- except when I say the lottery, this will be doneundermy Salary which I was told we will discuss lottery - then I will give the lottery in general, but now I am dealing with this department, all the money from the lottery goes to Fitness and Amateur Sports. lt is not in there. I 1218

Friday,March 25, 1977 want to report fully on that and I will di stribute the sheets and then on thi s I would want to talk about the Advi sory Council of Fitness and Amateur Sports, that is not covered in there, I would li ke to talk about their

part in a partnership of the Corpo ration A that has a revenue on that. I would want to report fully about the Manitoba Games, past and future, and the Refit Program and the interdepartmental com mittee. Now you know if this doesn't meet with your approval, you can make another suggestion. -(In terjection)- Yes, but I said that when we opened . I promi se you that everything will be di scussed . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Member for Mou ris. MR. WARNER H. JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman, I am not sure that all of the confusion exists on thi s side of the House.

The Mi nister has just told us a few moments ago that before weget through the item on Fitness and Amateur Sports, we will have the answers to all of our questio ns, and that he is going to bring in the lotteries item before we com plete thi s particular part of hi s Estimates. And yet there is no place in the Estimates that permits him to do that.

When we get through Fitness and Amateur Sport, that is, Item No. 63, we will be goin g down to Item No. 65 whi ch deals with the Manitoba Health Services Commi ssion, so that means that there wil l be no di scussion, or at least no proper way that he can bring a di scussion on the Lotteries Co mmi ssion before the House until we get through the first item and that co uld be several days hence, depend ing on how tong it takes to di scuss Item No. 65.

Now if the Mi nister wanted really to be helpfu l and hi s department wants to be helpful, then they would incl ude the lotteries item in Item No. 63 or add another item so that a di scussion on lotteries can take place on an item that is specified in the Estimates. As it is now, the only opportunity thatwe have is on the mai n item when the Mi nister's Salary is being di scussed, butthat won't be until Item No. 65 is di scussed, which is the Manitoba Health Services Com mi ssi on.

So what will happen whether the Mi nister th inks so or not, what will happen that there will be a very clear di stinction between the di scussion on Fitness and Amateur Sport and then those areas that come under hi s ju risdiction insofar as they apply to lotteries. In the interval there is going to be a di scussion on the Manitoba Health Services Comm ission and what we would much prefer is to di scuss thi s item as one item rather than the separation that is goi ng to be necessary as a result of the way that the Estimates are being structured. MR. DESJARD INS: I certainly concur with that.

I th ink it would be ki nd of rid icu lous to jump to the Commi ssion and then come back to that. Now my suggestion, and I rely on my honourable friend who knows the Rules of the House much better than I do, now thi s th ing was prepared in a certain format. I don 't think that I can ever be accused of not di scussi ng the thing. l remember when I started here, the Manitoba Health Servi ces Com mission was passed in about five mi nutes and all the years I was in Co mmi ssion we gave all the details, we opened it up.

Now my suggestion and if it can't be �ne, well then I am open for any suggestions, my suggestion was thi s, that we go ahead with Fitness 'nd Amateur Sport, (a), (b), and (c). We have (c) (1 ), (c)(2) , and (c)(3) . Now before the Chairman �ives that long motion of a sum to be voted for Resolution 63, before that is passed , once we have �ssed (c), then w

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-4-27a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 4th hansardpdf 27a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	7434645b30fa8d3e45af4b62f1ee2d599d1efbe5

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