Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 40B (36th Legislature, 4th Session)

36-4-40b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session- Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker :··\�.::-.U �� ·' ...... ,.. Vol. XLVIII No. 40B -1:30 p.m., Thursday, April30, 1998

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Member Constituency Political AftUiation ASHTON, Steve Thompson N.D.P. BARRETT, Becky Wellington N.D.P. CERILLI, Marianne Radisson N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose P.C. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. Seine River P.C. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary Concordia N.D.P. DOWNEY, James, Hon. Arthur-Virden P.C. DRIEDGER, Albert Steinbach P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside P.C. EVANS, Clif Interlake N.D.P. EVANS, Leonard S. Brandon East N.D.P.

FAURSCHOU, David Portage Ia Prairie P.C. FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo P.C. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield P.C. FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley N.D.P. GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface Lib. GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa P.C. HELWER, Edward Gimli P.C. HICKES, George Point Douglas N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. KOWALSKI, Gary The Maples Lib. - LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar The Pas N.D.P. LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord St. Johns N.D.P. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek P.C. McCRAE, James, Hon. Brandon West P.C.

McGIFFORD, Diane Osborne N.D.P. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia P.C. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn St. James N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East P.C. NEWMAN, David, Hon. Riel P.C. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. PITURA, Frank, Hon. Morris P.C. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet P.C. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. River Heights P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack, Hon. Niakwa P.C. RENDER, Shirley St. Vital P.C. ROBINSON, Eric Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Gladstone P.C. SALE, Tim Crescentwood N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Broadway N.D.P. STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kirkfield Park P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin N.D.P.

SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye P.C. TOEWS, Vic, Hon. Rossmere P.C. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. Fort Garry P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River N.D.P. Vacant Charleswood

2399 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, April30, 1998 The House met at 1:30 p.m. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Winnipeg Hospitals Food Services-Privatization Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of A. Colpitts, S. Glowa, B. Wentland and others praying that the Legislative Assembly ofManitoba urge the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) to put an end to the central ization and privatization of Winnipeg hospital food services. Mining Reserve Fund Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of C. Suitor, S. McDuff, P.

Stadnick and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Newman) to consider immediately restoring the $6 million taken from the Mining Reserve Fund. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Winnipeg Hospitals Food Services-Privatization Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? No. Dispense.

THAT the Urban Shared Services Corporation (USSC) has announced plans to privatize laundry, food services and purchasing for the Winnipeg hospitals; and THAT it is estimated that more than 1,000 health care jo bs will be lost over the next year as a result, with many more privatized in the next two or three years; and THAT under the terms of the contract, Ontario businesses will profit at the expense of Manitoba's health care system; and THAT after construction of a food assembly warehouse in Winnipeg, chilled, prepared food will be shipped in from Ontario, then assembled and heated before being shipped to the hospitals; and THAT people who are in the hospital require nutritious and appetizing food; and THAT the announced savings as a result of the contract have been disputed, and one study by Wintemute Randle Kilimnik indicated that, "A considerable number of studies have compared costs of service delivery in health care between self-operation (public sector) and privatization.

Invariably, privatization is more expensive. "; and THAT no one in Manitoba seems to benefit from this contract, especially patients. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Minister of Health to put an end to the centralization and privatization of Winnipeg hospital food services. Mining Reserve Fund Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Fl in Flon (Mr. Jennissen). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

WHEREAS mining is a billion dollar industry in Manitoba directly employing more than 4,300 people pumping more than $240 million in wages alone into the Manitoba economy; and

WHEREAS part of the mining taxes on operating mines goes into the Mining Reserve Fund; and

2400 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 30, 1998

WHEREAS the Mining Reserve Fund was set up for the welfare and employment of persons residing in a mining community which may be adversely affected by the total or partial suspension or the closing down of mining operations attributable to the depletion of ore deposits; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has withdrawn $6 million from the Mining Reserve Fund and put this money into general revenue; and

WHEREAS many mining communities having contributed millions of dollars to the provincial economy for many years are now nearing the end of their known ore resources. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Energy and Mines to consider immediately restoring the $6 million taken from the Mining Reserve Fund. Winnipeg Hospitals Food Services-Privatization Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Dispense.

WHEREAS the provincial government has embarked upon a project in which it is closing hospital kitchens and having hospital food transported in from Toronto for reheating; and

WHEREAS this proposal will not improve the quality of food but will cost hundreds ofjo bs to the provmcial economy; and

WHEREAS on December 8th of 1997, the provincial cabinet staged a photo opportunity for the media in which government MLAs were served chicken breast from a chef flown in from To ronto for the occasion while the actual meal served residents that night was macaroni and peas; and

WHEREAS this proposal will result in more health care dollars being spent on questionable privatization project s; and

WHEREAS in December of 1997, the provincial government was forced to drop a similar privatization scheme involving home care which had been opposed by the clients, families and the public; and

WHEREAS once again the provincial government without consultation has committed itself to a privatization project which will likely cost taxpayers more money for a poorer quality service, thus forgetting the patients who deserve better care. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Health to consider immediately cancelling the hospital food proposal and concentrate on delivering quality health care instead of using health dollars to provide contracts for private firms. *

(1335) TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, I am pleased to table the Supplementary Information for 1998-1999 for the Canada Manitoba Infrastructure Works. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Biii43-The Victims' Rights and Consequential Amendments Act Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Stefanson), that leave be given to introduce Bill 43, The Victims' Rights and Consequential Amendments Act (Loi sur les droits des victimes et modifications correlatives), and that the same be now received and read a first time. I would advise the House that the Li eutenant Governor recommends the bill to the House, and I would like to table the Lieutenant Governor's message. Motion agreed to. Bill 44- The Statute Law Amendment Act, 1998 Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I move, seconded by the Minister of Labour

April 30, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2401 (Mr. Gilleshammer), that leave be given to introduce Bill 44, The Statute Law Amendment Act, 19 98 (Loi de 19 98 modifiant diverses dispositions legislatives), and that the same now be received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have this afternoon thirty seven Grade 9 students from Sir Winston Church ill School in Thunder Bay, Ontario, under the direction of Mr. Jim Jack.

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Manitoba Telecom Services Rate Increase Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, last year, or two years ago, when Mr. Nugent's testimony was presented in this House, Mr. Ross Nugent honestly stated that the new private telephone system would go through a rate shock for consumers. The Premier (Mr. Filmon) answered that issue by saying Mr. Nugent was wrong, and that there would be rate increases based only on service for the future and so-called rate rebalancing.

We asked a number oftimes on the impact of taxation policy on a private company versus a public company, and the Premier basically said it would not have any impact on consumers.

I would like to ask the Acting Premier: why has the telephone system application or the telecom system application to the CRTC, why is it now said there will be a massive increase in rates for consumers based on consideration of the new company, and why are they proposing that the consumers of Manitoba pay between $8 million next year and $3 8 million in the future per year to deal with the Tory mistruth, again, on the Manitoba Telephone System? Ron.

Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance ): Well, again, Madam Speaker, it is the Leader of the Opposition who is absolutely incorrect with some of the information that he puts on the record. I encourage him to look at some of the information that was put out back on April 1 of this year when Manitoba Telecom Services outlined this entire issue. In fact, it was covered in at least some of the local media, April 2

article on the front page of one of our local papers, so I encourage him to look at some of that to get a better understanding of the issue. But I think the message for consumers is that the process of going before the CRTC was the same process under private ownership and public ownership. That process does work, because if you look at the last rate request from MTS, they made a rate request increase of $3 . CR TC approved a rate increase of 84 cents. As a result, today we continue to have the lowest residential rates of any of the major telephone companies in all of Canada right here in the province of Manitoba.

So that process works, and in terms of any future rate adjustments, any future rate requests, Manitoba Telecom Services- An Honourable Member: Why do you not just give Tom a call? Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) just continues to- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Doer: Well, I would like to thank the minister responsible for the golden share for that answer, Madam Speaker, but he did not answer the question. I asked the specific question about what the impact of tax provisions for a private company would be on the Manitoba consumer.

The document tabled that we have received indicates there will be, and I quote: a dramatic increase in the future when MTS incurs actual income tax expenses, a dramatic increase for the consumers of this province, something that we alleged and members opposite denied. Mike Harris did not sell Ontario Hydro because of the tax considerations. We have a delayed tax impact, but we have a tax impact. Will the minister confirm that $38 million that will be incurred by the local consumers, will he verify what

2402 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA April 30, 19 98 that will be for the local consumers who will have to bear the price of a broken Tory promise and Tory ideology? Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, again, the Leader of the Opposition is incorrect. At the time of the privatization, we talked about a one-time tax adjustment that Manitoba Telecom Services would have in terms of writing off a pension adjustment to the level of some $360 million. We said at that time it was our expectation that the benefactors of that would be the consumers here in Manitoba, and that has been the case.

In fact, MTS made a request in their last rate application, as the member recalls, for some shareholder entitlement relative to this tax issue and CRTC turned that down. They did not grant that application to Telecom Services, again proving very clearly that the process of going before the CR TC is there to protect consumers, is there to make companies ensure that any adjustments they are requesting are legitimate ones.

But again, members opposite have difficulty accepting the fact that companies should pay taxes, and they fail to recognize that when companies pay taxes. they pay them either to the federal government or to the provincial government, and those taxes are spent very wisely in the province of Manitoba on health care. on education, on support to families, things that are very important to all Manitobans. * (1 340) Mr.

Doer: Madam Speaker, the member will know that the public Crown corporations in Manitoba have the lower rates because one of the factors is they do not have the shareholders' entitlement, the greedy kinds of conditions that shareholders and executives look at. If members opposite do not think the enhanced share option plan is greedy, let them stand up and say so. They also have the taxes to pay, as opposed to those rates staying lower. The figure in the document is $38 million. The government never had the intestinal fortitude to table that in the House.

They knew there would be a delayed impact on taxation policy for the new private company. Would the member confirm that $38 milli on a year, when the delayed impact takes place, will be close to a 30 percent rate increase or a dollar per year over the next six years, a 30 percent rate increase for average consumers, seniors and others on fixed income because ofthe Tory broken promise and ideology? Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, nobody has ever denied that under private ownership Manitoba Telecom Services ultimately would pay income taxes.

In fact, today that industry, about 70 percent of the business that the Manitoba Telecom Services is in is in a very competitive environment where every company that they compete with pays taxes to either the provincial government here in Manitoba or to the federal government, so that has never been denied. But we have said very clearly, there is a process for Manitoba Telecom Services to go through with CRTC where they have to justify any of their expenditures and any of their rate adjustments.

That process has worked very well in terms of the recent examples we have in Manitoba, and as a result, today we continue to have the lowest residential rates in all of Canada right here in the province of Manitoba, in large part as a result of that very important process. Manitoba Telecom Services Rate Increase Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): It is interesting that the minister talks about rates and the CRTC. It was this caucus, it was 50 municipal councils and it was the MSOS who spoke out against those rates.

The government said nothing, and it is amazing because, when it comes to stock options, that golden share speaks awfully loudly, Madam Speaker. I want to ask the minister directly this time, because we are not going to let him wriggle off it on this one: will he pick up the phone and phone the chair of the board, Tom Stefanson? Will he phone the government appointees on the board, reappointed again today at the shareholders' meeting and tell them that we, the people of Manitoba, say no to what will result in a $6-a-month rate increase because ofMTS's application? Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, again I do not accept necessarily any of the figures put on the record by the member for Thompson in terms of his past experience with providing -

April 30, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2403 information on this issue or any other issue to this House. I have said very clearly the process is the same under private ownership as it is under public ownership in terms of going before the CR TC.

The opportunity to appear, whether it is the Canadian association of consumers, Manitoba Society of Seniors, is available to organizations like that, and if they have the kinds of concerns that are outlined and they have outlined some concerns today, I certainly encourage them to do exactly what they are suggesting they will do, and that is to make representation and appear before the CR TC committee because that is the regulatory process. That is the one that is available to all citizens, all consumers, if they have any concerns about Manitoba Telecom Services. Mr.

Ashton: As a supplementary, I would like to ask the minister responsible for MTS whether he has contacted the chair of the board, Tom Stefanson, the board appointees of the government, and asked them to take the money they want for the increases out of the gold-plated stock option program and not out of further rate increases for Manitobans. Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, we do not get involved in the day-to-day operations of Manitoba Telecom Services, nor should we.

We have examples of other government-run enterprises when the people opposite had their hands in them, whether it was the forestry industry in the North or ManOil in western Canada. We are still paying for the debt on the mismanagement of people like that across the way. We have a board of directors of 11 individuals, 11 reputable people from right across this province. There are some 70 million shares that have been invested in by thousands and thousands of Manitobans who continue to hold this corporation accountable for their decisions.

In fact, the annual general meeting was just today, here in the city of Winnipeg, where roughly one third of the shares issued were represented, either by proxy or in direct attendance at the meeting. I am led to believe that those shareholders today ratified the reappointment of the board by some 99.5 percent, so that is the opportunity that is available to them, as shareholders, as consumers to either appear before the CRTC or as shareholders to make representation at the annual meeting of Manitoba Telecom Services. Mr.

Ashton: The only ones with their hands in anybody's pockets are people like Tom Stefanson and senior officials at MTS. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would remind the honourable member for Thompson he was recognized for a final supplementary question, to which no

preamble is permissible. *

(1345) Annual Meeting-Minister's Proxy Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): As a final question, and I ask the minister responsible for MTS, who spent two weeks trying to deflect his direct responsibility as minister responsible for MTS for that stock option program: who represented him at the meeting today, and did that person go in there with a clear message for the minister to scrap that unacceptable million-dollar plus program for people like Tom Stefanson and others who should not be getting that kind of money at the expense of the ratepayers, the people that have to pay for those phone increases? Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): The proxy issued on behalf of the Province of Manitoba for the meeting today of Manitoba Te lecom Services outlined the same two individuals as the previous proxy. The direct appointment was Mr. Julian D. Benson, the secretary to Treasury Board, and the alternate appointment is J. Pat rick Gannon, the Deputy Minister ofF inance. The only issue before the annual meeting today where we had the opportunity to vote as a special sharer under our special share in a separate class again was the nomination and appointment of four out of the 11 members of the board of directors.

We reappointed the same four people who we believe are outstanding Manitobans: Mr. Robert Chipman, Ashleigh Everett, Don Penny and Sam Schellenberg. Those were the provisions under the special share. In terms of operating decisions, we did not participate in operating

2404 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA April 30, 19 98 decisions. The issue that the member raises, I am led to believe was not an issue that was on the agenda or was raised specifically today at the annual meeting. Hepatitis C Compensation Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, yesterday the National Assembly in Quebec supported the extension on compassionate grounds of the existing compensation program for all victims of contaminated blood who were not covered by the existing program. This morning Ontario indicated that it was prepared to support Quebec's call for compensation for more people.

On Monday, the Minister of Health, when referring to the federal government, said in committee, and I quote him: if they are prepared to live up to their responsibility, the provinces certainly are, I am sure, and would be prepared to meet with them to discuss this further. Certainly I would be.

I would like to table the Quebec resolution, and I would like to ask this Minister of Health if he is willing to join his colleagues from Ontario and Quebec and pressure the federal government to return to the table and reconsider the compensation package for people living with hepatitis C to include all those who acquired hepatitis C as a result of contaminated blood. Is the minister prepared to do that? Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, first of all, the resolution that was passed by the National Assembly in Quebec and the kind of word we are hearing from Ontario is a resolution that offers no provincial participation in an expansion of that plan but asks for the federal government, who the Krever report indicated has the lion's share of responsibility in this area, to endeavour to expand that particular plan. If the federal Liberal government wishes to do that, and the only caveat-and I have put it on this House, that if they were to do that, that is certainly their business.

I am not going to tell them what to do with it, but it would have to be new money. I would not want to see a situation where a national government took money out of transfers to provinces to pay for an expansion in coverage in essence in our health care system. So, if the government of Mr. Chretien wishes to endeavour to do that, certainly they are not going to listen one way or the other to the advice of Manitoba. They are free to do that as long as, I would say, it would be new money. Ms. McGifford: The minister really dances around the question. Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Would the honourable member for Osborne pose her supplementary question now, please. * (1 350) Ms. McGifford: Yes, Madam Speaker. I asked the minister ifhe would join his colleagues, put pressure on the federal minister to return to the table and discuss the extension of compensation for all victims of hepatitis C. This is the commitment he made on the record on Monday. Would he live up to his commitment? Mr.

Praznik: Madam Speaker, my commitment has always been that if federal and provincial ministers of Health meet to discuss any issue, I will be there, but also part of our comments that were in committee where we discussed this was the prerequisite of course that the national government had to be there with money.

We have heard the Prime Minister, and he has confirmed with his actions recently what I have been saying from the beginning of this, that the national government, who bears the lion's share of responsibility, never came to the table with the intention of doing other than compensating those individuals for whom there was a negligence in the system, and the dollars and actions that they have taken all the way through have proven that.

Let us not forget that, although this is a tremendous tragedy for the individuals involved, the provincial governments today, collectively, are there with some $1. 6 billion in health care costs that we are having to pay with not one penny, not one penny of support from Mr. Chretien and the federal Liberals. Ms. McGifford: I would like to ask the minister if he could tell us exactly how many Manitobans with hepatitis C were infected before January 1, 19 86.

Ifhe does not have those figures, which seem to be so important in this compensation package, would he endeavour to get them, put them before the people of Manitoba so that we can really understand this issue -

April 30, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2405 and understand the minister's position and his refusal to extend compensation to all Manitobans? Mr. Praznik: What the member does not seem to recognize, again, despite our discussing this for many hours, is that the lead in this particular package and the lion's share of responsibility rests with the federal government, that the provinces have only been the purchasers of blood.

The operators of the system, or the Canadian Red Cross Society who in essence are bankrupt, and the national government who had the regulatory authority, they have to bear their responsibility, and they rarely do that in most cases. Madam Speaker, I would just like to table for the benefit of the member-just to put this in perspective of what others are doing in the country-this wire story from Saskatchewan, and I quote, "Taking a page from the federal Liberals, Saskatchewan's NDP government Tuesday voted down a motion proposing hepatitis C compensation be extended to all victims of the disease.

They instead voted in support of an 'expression of sympathy' for those who got the virus from tainted blood. The Saskatchewan exercise was something of a mirror image of a federal one played out Tuesday in the House of Commons, where the Liberals survived a vote of confidence . . . Except that in Saskatchewan, it was the NDP that declined opposition requests the matter be put to a free vote, and the Liberals who criticized the decision . . . NDP backbencher Andrew Thomson argued his government is showing compassion by providing ongoing health care to all victims." Gerald Wilson Jr. Trial-Jury Selection Mr.

Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): I had the opportunity of sitting with the family of the late Dorothy Martin yesterday in The Pas, and they indeed were disappointed with the outcome of the trial of Gerald Wilson Jr., and indeed have a lot of questions about the entire system and the administration of justice to aboriginal people in the province of Manitoba. One area that I would like to touch upon this afternoon, Madam Speaker, is on the jury selection in this particular murder.

We all know in this Chamber that 50 percent of the town of The Pas is made up of aboriginal people, and seven years ago the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry in their recommendations cited that as a need to be addressed. I would like to ask the Minister of Justice what eff orts his government have made in attempting to meet these recommendations. Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I think the member raises a very important question. The issue of jury selection, of course, is fundamental to the administration of justice.

I know that, generally speaking and in this particular case, there was a concerted effort to ensure that there was a panel from which to draw jury members, the panel being representative of the community. Clearly, the issue of who actually sits on any particular jury is a matter to be determined by the lawyers on both sides of the case, and I understand that process was proceeded with, and the issue that the member raises I believe was dealt in a very appropriate fashion. *

(1355) Mr. Robinson: As I said, the Martin family indeed are very concerned. I would like to read a portion of a victim impact sta tement by the daughter of the late Dorothy Martin, Summer Rose Martin. She says: I feel like my family is breaking apart without my mom or my heart cracks in half. My feelings are not very strong anymore without my mom. I feel that everything inside of me is part of my mother. I miss my mom a lot. That was part of what was heard in the courtroom yesterday.

If indeed what the minister is saying on the subject of juries, why was there not a noticeable presence of First Nations or aboriginal people on the jury during the Gerald Wilson trial? Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, I can indicate that the process follows a very clearly defined procedure. The issue of appropriate community representation is always borne in mind, and certainly my departmental officials are very aware of that particular issue.

I do want to say that I certainly-my sympathy goes to the family in particular, and indeed the family was very thankful for the job that the Crown attorneys did in that particular case and thanked them in a very formal ceremony. I know that the family went through a very difficult time, but I know that they were very pleased

2406 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA April 30, 19 98 with the job that the Crown attorneys did in that particular case. Mr. Robinson: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the minister as well-the government's Crown counsel, the ones that prosecuted this case, did ask for an adjournment sometime during the trial to question the make-up and the composition of the jury. I would like to ask the minister if indeed it was his department that asked them to withdraw that argument that they had. Mr.

Toews: Madam Speaker, if the member is in any way suggesting that any political official in any way had any input into that trial, I can certainly indicate that no political official had any involvement in that trial because it would be inappropriate for a political official, including the Attorney General, to become involved in any specific case and the prosecution of any particular case. I know that Crown attorneys will have discussions as professionals amongst each other about the particular conduct of a case. That happens on a regular basis and I encourage that. Hepatitis C Compensation present for a moment.

Anyone who examines the Canadian blood system and how it operated in the past recognizes that the operator of that system was the Canadian Red Cross Society, which was an independent operator. The national government, with its constitutional responsibilities, was the regulator. They were the ones who were to ensure that the operator managed in a manner that produced safe products, as safe as possible, for the Canadian public. What was the role ofthe provinces? We, in essence, were the purchasers through hospitals.

Actually, we were not even the direct purchasers; it was our hospitals that we fund, who in itself are independent, who purchase blood and blood products for the citizens in our respective jurisdictions. So what influence, what role did we have in how the system operated? Minimum at best. So the responsibility for blood in Canada has not been a provincial responsibility, only in the sense that we have been the purchasers.

Madam Speaker, we now accept that that old system does not work, and we as provincial governments are becoming the builders of a new Canadian blood system that we wiii be responsible for in the future as operators. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, * (14 00) my question is for the Minister of Health regarding the hepatitis C issue. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, the minister says minimum- Madam Speaker, the Minister of Health acknowledges that the Krever report indicated that in fact the federal government had the lion's share and the federal government had to play the leading role.

But he also acknowledges that the federal government has to take some responsibility. What I am asking the minister today is to also take responsibi lity. Equally, the province had a responsibility for that. They also have a responsibility for those that fall outside of that time frame. My question to the Minister of Health is to acknowledge that the provincial government has a leadership responsibility to do something for those that were infected by hepatitis C that fall outside that time frame. Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, let us talk about responsibility past and Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Lamoureux: My question to the Minister of Health is: will the Minister of Health acknowledge when he says "minimum at best" for the Krever report, in other words, because of the courts it is minimum at best-that he does have a role outside of that time frame and he does have a responsibility to do something for indivi duals infected with hepatitis C outside of that time frame? Mr.

Praznik: Madam Speaker, would the member propose that if a pharmaceutical manufacturer produced a product that did not work, the provincial government should be responsible for the work of that manufacturer or the national government who regulates that product? Just compare the analogy. If the member would just think for a moment and compare it to other parts of the -

April 30, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2407 system. Even the New Democrats have not asked us to take that responsibility. We, as Manitobans in our health care system, do provide today for virtually universal coverage in our health care system for people who are injured or ill, no matter how they came down with that illness, and as provinces we are investing or spending some $1. 6 billion just for that group of people where there was a negligence. Add to that what we will be spending for the others that he speaks about.

So every provincial government today is there providing dollars without one penny of support from the federal Li berals, because these are all marginal dollars and are not added to our transfer payments that are capped. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, will the minister acknowledge that we compensated people for the flood of the century, not because there was a legal mandate to do that; we did it because we live in a compassionate society, and the provincial government took on responsibility?

What we are asking is for the government to also look at the compassionate arguments of this particular issue and acknowledge that there is a need to show some compassion and to assist individuals with hepatitis C-[interjection] The province. We are talking about the provincial government, not what is happening in Ottawa. Understand. Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, never in this House have I seen such an advocate for a federal offload of responsibility as I have just witnessed.

Let us not for one moment-and this is a very serious debate, and I have to thank all honourable members on both sides of the House who have been participating in it in Estimates. We have had a very good debate on principle and issue and ramifications. It has been an excellent one, and I congratulate the member for Osborne (Ms. McGifford) for bringing her resolution. But just for one moment let us look at the context. We as Canadians do provide a very extensive safety net for Canadians when they become ill. We provide free medical care. In Manitoba we provide home care; we provide Pharmacare support.

On a national basis, the Canada Pension Plan provides income replacement with disability. So we have a variety of tax credits. So we already have a very extensive safety net, whether you are injured or with hepatitis C, cancer, lung cancer, heart problems and cannot work. We do provide today a safety net. So let not for one moment the member opposite imply that there is nothing there. There is an extensive safety net in place today for whoever is unable to work or is ill. Swampy Cree Tribal Council Murder Investigation- Compensation Mr.

Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): Madam Speaker, the Swampy Cree Tribal Council, after learning that the investigation into the death of Dorothy Martin might not go anywhere, hired an investigator. This investigator became quite instrumental in identifYing areas which became part of the overall RCMP investigation. My question to the Minister of Justice today is: would he consider acknowledging the usefulness of the work done by the Swampy Cree Tribal Council and reimburse the tribal council for its costs? Hon.

Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Well, Madam Speaker, I know that the council did what they did out of a profound sense of concern, and I certainly share their sense of concern that every homicide is thoroughly investigated and brought to the appropriate legal authorities. I am not aware ofthe extent of the work done by this particular individual, but I know that this matter is still before the courts, as has been announced by the prosecutor. There may well be an appeal of the sentence, and I do not think it is appropriate to discuss this case in any detail.

Aboriginal Justice Inquiry Family Notification Recommendation Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): Given that the AJI recommended-and I would like to quote a little bit from their recommendation. That is, it says: a better way to have approached the problem of breaking the tragic news would have been for the officer to approach the chief of the band or someone else at the band office, tell him or her the news and ask that someone familiar with the person accompany the officer. In this way the bereaved could be informed in her own language by someone she knew.

Such a person would also know what kind of family or community support might be most appropriate.

2408 LEGI SLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA April 30, 19 98 My qu estion to the minister is: why has this recommendation not become a matter of policy by now? Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I am very proud of the way that the various victims' services operations have operated throughout the province.

I had occasion to speak to the Victims Services people up in The Pas and indeed up in Thompson, and I know that in a number of recent very important cases those personnel, along with the RCMP, did a very admirable job of ensuring that the family was advised and kept apprised of a particular situation in a very sensitive way. So I think that we have learned much from the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry. I think that document continues to guide much of my thinking and my government's thinking in terms of what needs to be done.

In respect of any matters in which we can improve our communication and our sensitivity to victims. this government will certainly consider all such steps. Gerald Wilson Jr. RCMP Investigation Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): Madam Speaker, my last question to the Minister of Justice is this. At what point in the RCMP investigation did the Department of Justice become aware that there were problems in the investigation, and what action, if any, did the minister take to correct these very serious inadequacies in the investigation and by so doing would have ensured that justice was carried out? Hon.

Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Well, Madam Speaker, I can assure this House that if any issues of impropriety or allegations of impropriety-without reflecting on any particular case-if any such allegations are brought to my attention, I do refer that to the deputy minister and he then to the Crown attorneys responsible for any particular case. So, if the member is ever aware in any particular case that there is a concern, certainly my office is available to transmit any messages to the appropriate prosecutors.

But, as I might indicate, it would be entirely inappropriate for me as the minister to specifically direct any particular prosecution. I know that the member was not suggesting that I do so, but I do take his comments to heart, and he can be assured, as can members of the public there as well, that their concerns will be taken very seriously not only by my department but by the police department, the RCMP, whom I have a great deal of respect for. Gerald Wilson Jr. RCMP Investigation Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): To the Minister of Justice, Madam Speaker.

This is the second time this week I have had to rise in this House in regard to public allegations about shortcomings or irregularities in RCMP investigations into the killings of aboriginal women. Today it has come to our attention through the media of allegations of a, quote, mess in the investigation into the killing of Dorothy Martin, matters regarding the withholding of evidence, missing evidence. witnesses not found, for example, a recording that was not done. and other allegations I understand of a lack of fingerprinting of the sawed-off shotgun that was the tragic instrument.

My question to the minister, following on the questions from the member for The Pas: when did the minister or his department become aware of allegations of shortcomings or irregularities in the RCMP investigation into the killing of Dorothy Martin, and why is a meeting not being held until next week? The trial is over. Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Well, Madam Speaker, this is a particular member who takes somewhat delight in trying to pillory RCMP officers, in attempting to pillory Crown attorneys, and indeed- Madam Speaker: Order, please. *

(1410) Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Madam Speaker. The minister is clearly violating the provisions of Beauchesne that indicate that members should not attribute motives. -

April 30, 1998 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2409 The member for St. Johns, our Justice critic. has asked some very serious questions about a very serious case that is of great concern to the family, to the community and to many Manitobans. I would appreciate it, Madam Speaker, if you would call the minister to order and ask him to respond with the same kind of seriousness to a very serious series of questions on this matter. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Justice, on the same point of order. Mr.

Toews: Madam Speaker, in respect of this particular member, I know that the Crown Attorneys Association has had to consistently release press releases asking the member to be fair to the Crown attorneys. Just on Tuesday- Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable minister, with the greatest respect, is not speaking to the point of order. On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Thompson, I would remind the honourable Minister of Justice that his answer should be as brief as possible and deal with the question raised. * * * Mr. Toews: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I am aware that at any particular situation in this case the Crown attorneys responded in a very quick and efficient way to any particular concerns. I think this was indicated by the families specifically recognizing not only the Crown attorneys in The Pas as having done a very good job, but indeed the chief and council in respect of the other case, thanked the specific Crown attorney for doing a very good job, so instead of just criticizing the Crown attorneys, perhaps he should just take to heart some of the words that the member for The Maples (Mr.

Kowalski) raised the other day about unfairly criticizing not only the Crown attorneys but the police. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for St. Johns, with a supplementary question. [interjection] Order, please. The honourable member for St. Johns was recognized for a supplementary question. Mr.

Mackintosh: Would this minister, instead of defaming a messenger, listen to the voices of aboriginal women in Manitoba, aboriginal peoples in Manitoba, and would he tell this House: when did he become aware of irregularities in the police investigation, and why are he and his department not meeting with the RCMP until next week? The trial is over; the sentence has been handed down, and by the way, the Crown attorney did a good job; I am looking at this minister, Madam Speaker. Mr.

Toews: Yes, while I appreciate that the member finally recognizes that the Crown attorneys in this province are doing a good job, in respect to the allegation that I am not sensitive to the concerns of women and specifically aboriginal women, I recall very specifically, when I was a Crown attorney under the NDP government, what they used to do to women who complained in abuse cases, and what they did was throw them in jail. That was their approach. I know that my predecessors, the member for Fort Garry (Mrs. Vodrey) and the member for Brandon West (Mr. McCrae) are very sensitive to the concerns of women.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. Time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Bail Procedures Mr. Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): Madam Speaker, our government is committed to use every means available to implement tougher penalties for criminals. While members opposite continue to question not only our government's commitment but the commitment of our Crown attorneys, we believe in working in partnership with all stakeholders to ensure public confidence and safety is enhanced.

Yesterday the Minister of Justice announced measures clarifying the conditions under which prosecutors will oppose bail applications by suspected criminals in Manitoba. Utilizing changes in the Crimin al Code, the Crown will emphasize public confidence in the justice system, the seriousness of the offence and the potential for a lengthy term of imprisonment as grounds to oppose bail. Even when a judge releases an accused, the Crown will argue for appropriate conditions, such as curfews, nonassociation clauses and other conditions that provide the police

2410 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 30, 1998 with better tools to monitor the accused m the community. While members on the government side of the House continue to pursue strong law and order, members opposite are more concerned with, according to the Winnipeg Free Press, mastering the IS-second newsclip than with providing the public with other options. It is also worth noting that, while members opposite have in the past disparaged our initiatives, they have a tendency to pause and then claim them as their own. One only has to remember the member for St. Johns' (Mr.

Mackintosh) remarks concerning The Parental Responsibility Act, calling it another bell and whistle, yet less than one year later he was touting the need for parents to pay for the child's misdeeds under their proposed operation coverup. Madam Speaker, Manitobans want a government of substance, and we have delivered. The only thing members opposite have delivered to Manitobans is their usual offering of tired, old rhetoric. Israel 50th Anniversary Mr.

Tim Sale (Crescentwood): It is with a great sense of humility today that I rise to pay tribute to the people of Israel, past, present and future, on the occasion of the 50th anniversary of the founding of the modern State of Israel. None in this House need reminding that this state was founded against all odds, against the indifference of the great powers, and the not-so-benign residual occupation by Great Britain under the so-called Palestine mandate.

Madam Speaker, while most western nations are today friends of Israel, we should never forget that those nations were not friends in 194 7, that in 193 8 we Canadians turned Jews away from our doors, that our most affluent clubs in this city barred Jews from membership until relatively recently, that our University of Manitoba had a quota for Jewish students.

We should remember these things, not to flog our guilty consciences but simply for the same reason that numbers of us gathered with those from many cultures and histories for the past three years to read out some of the names of those murdered in death camps during the most recent Holocaust. We read 2,000 names last Friday, Madam Speaker, a lot of names in two hours, but we read only three-one hundredths of one percent of those known to have been murdered during the Holocaust. We read that we could publicly lift up their names, publicly say "never again," publicly say that we wiii remember.

Though the survivors become fewer, we wiii remember. For to remember in biblical terms is literally to put the members back together, to again make them present in a real way. The commitment to remember is all that stands between civility and hope and the law of the jungle and the deep prejudice and fear that dehumanizes those who celebrate different traditions and memories from our past. *

(1420) Madam Speaker, we remember the words of the prophet Micah, who saw the possibility of the day when everyone 'neath their vine and fig tree could live in peace and unafraid. Finally, we remember through this 50th year of the modern state that it is at least 3,000 years since the people of Judah occupied the land and that they through the ages have contributed so much to humankind and their understanding of true justice, mishpat and the ultimate goodness of creation.

We give thanks for their contributions to science, to the arts and all knowledge, and we pray for their future as citizens of a peaceful world, Madam Speaker. Fetal Alcohol Syndrome Mr. David Faurschou (Portage Ia Prairie): I rise today on the topic of fetal alcohol syndrome. I want to thank the ministers who announced recently, of Health and of Family Services, this government's commitment to spend over a million dollars over the next three years as a first step towards preventing fetal alcohol syndrome and dealing with its effects.

Every year in Manitoba approximately 200 children are born afflicted with this most tragic and preventable disease. In partnership with the Aboriginal Health and Wellness Centre and the Nor'West Co-Op Community Health Centre, this program will work with women who are at risk of having F AS babies or who have already had a child with this disease.

April 30, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2411 I want to mention at this time that earlier this year this government supported a program in Portage la Prairie, a pilot project operated through the Westend Day Care in Portage la Prairie specifically to address those children's needs that are afflicted with fetal alcohol syndrome and fetal alcohol effect, through art and using that creativity to develop their skills.

I stand here today thanking the government for their commitment to the people of Portage la Prairie and indeed all the people of Manitoba, to work towards the wiping out of this most tragic and preventable disease known as fetal alcohol syndrome. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Mr. Evan Burns Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, I would like to rise today to praise the life and mourn the death of Evan Bums, who passed away Tuesday morning at the age of 36. Evan, of course, was a person who was well known to members of this Chamber.

He was a person who had suffered multiple sclerosis, and as such he had worked with all of us on issues that faced disabled people and the challenges disabled people have to live a life of independence and to live a life of dignity. He had worked, I am sure, with ministers of Health across the way and with those of us on the opposition side. At various forums and areas of discussion on home care policy, he pushed all of us to develop a program for people who are disabled that starts from their needs, not from the government's programs.

He pushed all of us to produce alternatives that would make sense for the disabled across our community. He was a very passionate individual and a very articulate individual. No matter what side of the debate one was on in the home care dispute on the home care privatization, one had to be moved by the passionate speech he made out in front of this Legislative Building just a little over two years ago today. It was one of the finest speeches I have ever heard from a person I agreed with or disagreed with any time inside this Legislature or outside this Legislature.

He stated very clearly that he was drawing a line in the slush on the issues of privatization, and he said better than any of us on either side of the debate why it was important- Ifl could have leave just to complete my statement, Madam Speaker. Some Honourable Members: Leave. Mr. Doer: Thank you. -for us to have a home care program that worked and started with disabled people. He was a very, very inspiring individual, and his inspiration of ideas and his commitment to his fellow citizens and policies that would make sense for the disabled community I think will live with all of us.

It is truly tragic that I rise today in mourning his death, but I am proud to rise in memory of his life. Thank you. Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Sturgeon Creek): Madam Speaker, I wonder ifl may have leave to respond to the comments that were made by the Leader of the Opposition. Some Honourable Members: Leave. Madam Speaker: For clarification, there is one member's statement remaining allowable.

There are five a day, so if the honourable member wishes to take advantage of that, I would suggest that the independent members are allowed a tum today, and if they are willing to secede their daily rotation to the member for Sturgeon Creek-okay? All right. Mr. McAlpine: I too would like to add my condolences to the family of Evan Bums, as the Leader of the official opposition has raised. I, too, personally knew Evan Bums, a person with a lot of integrity. He had a lot to offer.

I learned a lot from Evan Bums in terms of his struggle for life as a person who suffered from MS and lost his life through his struggle with cancer. Madam Speaker, we did have a part to play in that struggle that he experienced for a number of years. I do not think there is a person that I have ever experienced that was as brave and really stood for what he believed in terms of creating for other people, not only for himself, but for other people in Manitoba. I, too, would

241 2 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 30, 1998 like to share, along with my colleagues from this side of the House, in mourning the death and the passing of Evan Bums. Thank you, Madam Speaker. ORDERS OF THE DAY (Continued) Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Mi nister of Family Services (Mrs. Mi tchelson), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to. * (1 450) COM MITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) Energy and Mines Mr.

Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Energy and Mines. When the committee last sat it had been considering item 23 .2.(

d) Geological Services (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits on page 47 of the Estimates book. Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): We are now in the Geological Services branch, and I have several questions in this area. One of my concerns has been that this branch has been underfunded. Now I do not have the actual numbers and it looks like a fairly steady rate of budgeting, but there are certain indica tors, I think, that tell a story, and that is the number of projects that are being undertaken by the department in any one year, the number of field days conducted, the number of days per project in the field.

These are very relevant because, as I have said in the past, one of the most imp ortant things that the department does is provide that base in formation, the geological data. If we cannot afford to put the geologi sts out there because we do not have enough supports or we do not have enough equi pment or we cannot fund the assi stants that are required so that full field seasons can occur, then I think we are doing a disservice to in dustry, to the geological community, to the geologists themselves and to the taxpayers of Manitoba.

We do have a consider able number of professionals and technical people in the department. The minister ind icated there were 32 geologi sts. I have some numbers which indicate in 1996, for in stance, there were only 14 projects totalling 1,069 days of field work. In 1997 there were 26 projects, field days of 1 ,350, and the number of days per project was only 52.

Now in a comprehensive field season, you can get crews out in May because the geological assi stants, the university students, have completed their program of study. so in theory you could be out doing that essential work through May, June, July and August, a full four months, giving you approximately 120 days available for that imp ortant work. Can the minister in dicate if my numbers are accurate and the number of projects that we antici pate to be doing field work this year? Hon.

David Newman (Minister of Energy and Mines): With respect to the field days, the figures that my department provides me with are that '97-98, I, 157; '98-99, projected this year 1, 192. My staffs speculation is that the additi onal days that you have probably relate to support staff. These are actual geologist field days that I have given you. Ms. Mihychuk: If we in theory put out all 32 geologists for a full four months with a full complement, how many field days would be available in the summer program? That is simple mathematics. Mr. Newman: 1 am advised that the correct number for field geologists is 21 .

They are the ones that actually do field work. The additi onal field days for this year will be 35, given the figures that I have given you, but the average number of days per geologist using that figure of 21 is 58 days per geologi st. Ms. Mihychuk: Well, I guess no matter which way you cut it, I think that 58 days would amount to approxi mately two months, and my argument would still hold that you could double the number of field days in a full season of four months.

April 30, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2413 I am wondering if the number of field days is related to the support budget, the avai lable monies for field assi stants, available monies for the equipment and transportation, et cetera. Is that the li miting factor for the field program? Mr.

Newman: I fully acknowledge that the amount of resources dedicated to this area is a factor in the number of days, but another factor which is relevant is that in some cases the field geologis ts do not perform in the field for the full maximum period for reasons of choice by the department in terms of compil ing field data and doing work in an office setting. A portion of that season is utilized for that purpose wi thout in any way relating to resource allocation. Ms.

Mihychuk: Even if we look at 21 field geologi sts of the 32 that the minis ter id entified, provide four months of field program, the total number of field days available is 2,520. We are approximately lookin g at half, half of the optimum in terms of what may be avai lable for those individ uals. Is the minis ter satisfied with that performance or field program? Mr.

Newman: I am advised that a reasonable, fair description of the number of days in a field season would be 90, and in an optimum situation where we had no concerns about resources within government, we would prefer to expand the number of days closer to those 90 in most cases, subject to the qualifi cations I gave you earlie r. * (1 500) Ms. Mihychuk: Is the mini ster prepared to provide additional supports in terms of Other Expenditures, line item 23.2.(d )(2) would it be, to potential ly expand the field season program, if there are li mitations based on those resources? Mr.

Newman: Frankly, no one has ever made that case to me, but if the department made that case to my level, given what I believe to be the im portance of this kind of contri bution to enhancing mining investment and mining activity, I would be very, very in terested in having a well-developed argument to be in readiness to ulti mately perhaps replace the kind of support or be replaced by the kind of support that we are giving MEAP because, as I have told you previously, my belief is that MEAP does have a li mited life in that, when we overcome the negative good will created by the NDP, those resources-! would li ke to then argue-could be best dedicated in the same amount or in an appropriate amount in order to meet the more optimum objectives of geological work by geologists within the department.

Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minis ter indi cate if the field projects that are going to be conducted this year are ind ustry based, and by that I mean eith er mineral deposits, providing geological information in terms of the Superior project, et cetera? Are there projects that are more theoretical? In the past, there have been individuals who have done, for example, caving for years on the department's budget, and although that may have been geologically very in teresting, its economic merits have been questioned.

Now, that indivi dual is no longer with the department, and I would assume that that field program has been terminated, but it does raise the issue of priorities and to ensure that when we do send out people or make that expendi ture that it is related to the economic wel l-being, whether we argue in the short term or in the long term, but that it be relevant and necessary, particularly when we have seen the loss of resources over the last 10 years in this area and presently with the economic cri sis in mining.

So it is a fairly delicate subject, but I want to be assured that the programs are based on the needs of Manitobans and perhaps not the personal in terests of individ uals that may have the abi lit y to go out in the field. Mr. Newman: I am advised that all of our projects have been vetted through the Mi neral Exploration Liaison Committee and have been prioritized by them, and they have endorsed the projects being put forward for this year. Ms. Mihychuk: Was that the procedure in the past? Mr. Newman: In the past, I am advised that there have been some exceptions to this particular process.

I made the inquiry as to whether or not it would be anticipa ted

2414 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 30, 1998 that there would be departures in the future, and I am advised and agree with the approach that that should only take place and will only take place in ci rcumstances where something unanticipated or not considered by the liai son committee comes along. At that time that might be seen to be a higher priority but, other than that, the prioritiz ation done through the process we disc ussed will be adhered to. Ms. Mihychuk: I take that as an assurance and just wanted to raise the issue, because it is well known that the situation occurred.

I am glad it is over and that we are moving on to a new era and that we focus our resources in places that are very much needed. One of the other areas that I would like to ask, are there any studies this year going to be occurring in terms of lake sedimentation or rive rway studies? Mr. Newman: We will be involved in a flood frequency study relating to the Red River in conjunction with the geological survey of Canada, and that would be a flood frequency over the last 500 years. Ms.

Mihychuk: In the past year, I believe last year there was the decision to get rid of the internal lab analysis for geochemistry, and those positions were released, and now that work is being contracted out. What has been the result of that decision in terms of efficiency, cost? I guess those are the two areas. Are we getting the job done in a timely manner, and what is the cost per sample now versus when it was done int ernally? *

(1510) Mr. Newman: The value of the services contracted to the contractor, ETL, was $60,220. 80 for this year. The department advises that all contractual commitments in terms of turn-around time are being met. So that is the detail on the efficiency in cost. Ms. Mihychuk: Does the department provide availability of sabbaticals for geologists via deferred salary?

This would give indivi duals the ability to put some money away for a future time when they wi shed to take a year off to perhaps do geological studies in other parts of Canada, perhaps do some international work, perhaps to go back to university, or it may give them a year to get out of the bush. You can get a little bushwhacked sometimes, and it is important to have that flexibility, I think, for geologists. This is a fairly common practice in certain sectors. For instance, in the education sector, which I just came out of in my other role, it is encouraged.

It allows the department, for example, to bring on new people, to provide them with the ability to be a geologist for a year or two years and allow them the ability to get to know the department, the mining industry, and get their foot into the industry. So in a sector where there is not a great deal of turnover, there is not a whole lot of movement in the geologists, I think there is going to be a bump. We are all sort of aging in a group, but other than that-and I do not think they are really ready for retirement yet- An Honourable Member: I think you are, as a politician. Ms.

Mihychuk: I am just moving my way up. This would provide the opportunity for them to self-deposit, so it does not cost the government anything. This is a very good idea for the government-I will give you this one wi thout any charge-and be excellent morale and provide flexibility for the geologists. So I am wondering if the minister does not have that available, if he would consider it. Mr. Newman: Once again, thank you for your constructive suggestion and approach. It does appear to coincide with the kind of approach the department is planning for.

Through the provincial geologists committee and the national geological surveys committee, the branch is investigating the potential for establishing exchange programs to facilitate the kinds of objectives you described. Ms. Mihychuk: I think that is a really positive sign, and I hope that there could be that type of sensitiv ity, that as well as the additional supports in terms of what we had talked about earlier, providing supports for families. I think it would make the field much more sensitive and open and make it much more attractive for indivi duals that were not necessarily attracted to geology.

That is exactly what we want to.

April 30, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2415 One of the other areas I wanted to ask about is industrial minerals. There was a situation raised in the past year about building stone, in particular, a quarry south of Snow Lake. I do not know if the mini ster is aware of that. They were, unfortunately, unable, because of regulation or rules at that time, to access money or grants of any kind through MEAP, but it seemed to be that the rules should have been changed, that there may be potential for exploratory development, or possibly job creation.

So I am looking to the minister to provide some leadership or informati on in terms of that sector. Are there supports for industrial minerals, for the development of industrial minerals in Manitoba, and what do we see those being, if they are not establi shed already? Mr. Newman: Well, you are definitely once again not only being constructive, but touching a matter that is dear to my own heart in terms of renewed emphasis. The industrial minerals area has an enormous potential in this provi nce, the magnitude of which is only now starting to emerge.

The refocusing to reprioritize has led to the emergence of an industrial mineral strategy, and the strategy involves the department actively striving to promote the industrial mineral sector. In addition, an industrial minerals geologist will be hired in this fiscal year, and a delive ry of the aggregate program has been transferred to the Geological Services Branch to facilit ate co-ordination with other industrial mineral and geological mapping activities.

An industrial mineral and specialties metals advisory board, or otherwise called a steering committee, is currently being established to identify market and development opportunities. Some form of incentive program analogous to MEAP is being conside red to help promote development in this sector in conjunction with our MEAP review. *

(1520) With respect to the very specific situation you described involving, I believe it would be John Kobar and his dolomite deposit in the northern area. We have had several meetings with him and with economic development people from Snow Lake and the mayor and other representation from Snow Lake. We have had several meetings with Cross Lake about their black granite potential deposit usage.

We are in co-operation with Rural Development, playing our co-ordination role, looking at a feasibility of a finishing plant in conjunction with the Department of Rural Development and the Snow Lake community development group, with a view to achieving funding of a feasibility study. We are doing things to actively promote a better knowledge of the use to which those kinds of products can be utilized in Manitoba by consumers here, and we have encouraged a greater involvement by the private sector people in the industry in doing international marketing by participating in trade shows elsewhere.

Our experience has been building those networks as a key to raising the profi le of Manitoba, and it was noteworthy, I think, that there was a presence by several groups marketing industrial minerals at our Mining and Minerals Convention in Winnipeg last November, and I would expect even more participation this year. Ms. Mihychuk: In terms of the summer field season, in the past season were there any field accidents last year? Mr. Newman: No one has any knowledge of any accident of any sort. Certai nly there are no majors ones. Ms.

Mihychuk: Are all summer assistants treated equally, and by that, are they given equal opportunity to experience diffe rent types of field environments, the different jobs that are involved? I can cite an example. This is quite a long time ago, but the female summer staff were not required to drive an outboard motor, and one of the experiences was to provide support services to the camp. That would be taking garbage over to an isla nd, et cetera. It provides the student the ability to learn how to handle the motor and do various other jobs that are all providing a well -rounded experience to those individuals.

In this case, the females did not do that job. Ultimately it resulted in this individual not having the experience with an outboard motor and ultimately was in a very serious accident in a summer situation. So I want to be assured that, no matter what your gender, each field student would have that opportunity

2416 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 30, 1998 to use various types of equipment and experience different field situations. Mr. Newman: I am advised that certainly at the acting-director level there is no knowledge of any discrimination based on gender of the type that you have described. Ifl ever heard that there were, I would be very unimpressed. I think that everyone should be given the same privilege to get their hands dirty and take on the tough jobs.

I agree that it is not only a learning experience which can instill pride and self esteem but it also increases competencies, and beyond that, can be a safety factor. Your point is well made, and I would expect that that would be the way things are done in the department. Ms. Mihychuk: Does the branch have plans to instruct the field crews to liaise with local First Nations communities in the areas, if they are going to be doing field work in those areas? Mr.

Newman: The practice that has been followed in the past has been to send a letter to the neighbouring affected First Nations or other aboriginal communities with a view to informing them as to what to expect by way of geological work being done by the department, and this year that letter will be sent under the signature of the deputy minister. Ms. Mihychuk: The supports for crews that are in remote areas are shipped in from various places in the province. It sort of depends on the project.

Is there a commitment to use locals, and by that I mean, if you are in the northern Superior project, if you have helicopter support, are you going to be obtaining your groceries from a nearby community, Thompson, Norway House, or are you going to be bringing it in from Winnipeg by truck, which has been done in the past? It would be a huge benefit to the local community to be able to provide supports for those crews. *

(1530) Mr. Newman: I am advised that the source of food and camp supplies is based on a cost normally coming from northern service centres, which would be the larger northern communities. They are flown in using local air services when that is the appropriate means of transport. The department will also purchase supplies from smaller communities where they are available at an appropriate price and accessible. Ms. Mihychuk: That concludes my questions in this area. Mr. Chairperson: 23.2. Energy and Mineral Resources (

d) Geological Services (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $2,604,500-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $1,171, 700-pass. Resolution 23.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $8,91 0,400 for Energy and Mines, Energy and Mineral Resources, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1999. Moving on to 23.3. Industry Support Programs (

a) Mineral Exploration Assistance Program, $3 million. Ms. Mihychuk: I think we passed this. Mr. Newman : I had some answers to some questions you raised the last day. Would this be an appropriate time to provide them before you move into this area? Mr. Chairperson: Is there leave of the committee for the minister to provide the answers that were presented last sitting of this committee? [agreed] Mr. Newman: The names of the Mining Board members. I gave you four names. The names of all the members are Presiding Member Douglas Nicol Abra, Deputy Presiding Member Ian Restall, Member Donald T.

Anderson, Member James E. Matthews, Member Lawrence Yusisatan. The per diem rate for a presiding member is $336 or $191 per meeting lasting three and one-half hours or less. The per diem rate for other members is $192 a day or $109 per meeting lasting three and a half hours or less. Reasonable travelling and out-of-pocket expenses incurred in the performance of duties may be claimed by members. The Mining Board held two hearings in 1997 and one hearing in 1996. You had asked a question about claim inspections.

In 1997, the claims inspector went into the field to carry out inspections on approximately 20 occasions for

April 30, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2417 periods of time varying from one to five days. Prior to December 1997, no record was kept of all the claims visited if no problems were encountered, but since that time a new procedure has been put into place. It is now required that the inspector log all claims visited regarding problems encountered.

A claim is normally visited if (1 ) inconsistencies are noted when plotting a new claim on the claim maps, (2) a staker reports that he or she is unable to find the stakes of a claim to which he or she anticipated tying on, (3) a new, unknown staker comes into the area; the inspector migh t check out his or her claims to see what kind of job they had done. An inspector will also carry out random checks on claims within an area that is visited for one of the preceding reasons.

With respect to the budget, the reduction from two to one inspectors incurre d in the fiscal year 1992-93-since that time, the operating budget for the inspector has been raised from $7,000 to its present level of $1 4,500 annually. These costs do not include salary or vehicle costs. At the committee meeting on the morning of April 23, the honourable member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk) asked how many geologists have left the department since April 1995. At that time I responded, subject to confirmation, that the number was four, two female, two male.

Staff have checked out records, and I can now confirm that the number is in fact five, two female, three male. Pursuant to our discussion the day before yesterday on April 28, you sought inf ormation about annual employment in Manitoba mines. The figures which we have obtained include Rea Gold's Bissett mine. They are derived from the monthly fig ures reported to the Mines Accident Prevention Association of Manitoba.

Stats Canada numbers dif fer and are incorrect because they class smelting and refining as manufacturing, not mining, and mining diamond-drilling contractors are not included for the purposes of this analysis. The figures for 1989 tota1 4,384; 1990, 4,350; 1991, 4,789; 1992, 4,696; 1993, 4,388; 1994, 4,047; 1995, 4,237; 1996, 4,438; 199 7, 4,470. The mining companies who comprised this listing the mining companies are listed here, so you can see that this does not include the explorationists, the junior exploration companies that are active in Manitoba.

The companies that are used for this analysis are Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting in their Flin Flon, Snow Lake and Leaf Rapids operations; Inco Ltd., LynnGold, Tanco, Rea Gold, TVX and Blackhawk. The magnitude of HBM&S is: in Flin Flon, 1,520; Snow Lake, 73; Leaf Rapids, 444; Inco Ltd., 1,762; Ly nnGold, none since 1989; Tanco, 125; Rea Gold's fig ure for 1997 was 229 and in 1996 was 60, before that nothing; TVX, 262; Blackhawk, 95. Total 4,470. Ms. Mihychuk: Thank you very much for those numbers and that inf ormation.

I appreciate the speed of the response, and it certainly clarifies some of the concerns that I had about some of the dramatic dif ferences of numbers that we heard-one number being 2,000, that would have been a drastic reduction. It also explains some of the comments made by the Mining Association, always cite the statistical variation between StatsCan and themselves, so I thank the department and the minister for providing that inf ormation. Mr.

Newman: With respect to the Mining Association, we also have inf ormation from them so you can see why-maybe what we have done is established a methodology for talking the same process and the same methodology for arriving at numbers. That is why I cited the notes to the comments I made about the figures we provided because the Mining Association now includes diamond drilling and contractors in their employment figures. So, for example, their figures for 1996, where we would have said 4,438, they said 4,901; and for 1995 where we said 4,237, they said a total of 4,333.

But they do break theirs down and do show the contractors and the diamond drilling numbers separately but also inclusively in the total figure. * (1 540) Mr. Chairperson: 23.3. Industry Support Programs (

a) Mineral Exploration Assistance Program $3, 000,000-pa ss; 3.(

b) Petroleum Exploration Assi stance Program $1 ,000,000-pas s; 3.(

c) Manitoba Potash Project $1 75,600-p ass; 3.(

d) Acid Rain Abatement Program-Flin Flon $1 15,70 0-pass.

2418 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 30, 1998 Resolution 23. 3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $4,291 ,300 for Energy and Mines, Industry Support Programs $4,291 ,300, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1999. The next item to be considered for the Estimates of the Department of Energy and Mines is the item 1.(

a) Minister's Salary. At this point we request the minister's staff to leave the table for the consideration of this item. 23.1. Administration and Finance (

a) Minister's Salary $13,200. Shall the item pass? Ms. Mihychuk: I am going to use this opportunity to do a little

summary of a nine-point plan that I think should raise the concerns of Manitobans and raises concerns for me in particular. I am not going to be presenting a motion to reduce the Minister's Salary to a penny or to half, but I raise these concerns because I think that the minister sincerely wishes to be knowledgeable and to be responsive and aware of the situation, but I think unfortunately that is not the case.

In this sector I think that the minis ter's efforts to deal with Hydro, Northern Flood, Treaty Land and other initiatives that he has been involved in have perhaps taken him away from this sector which has a certain amount of self-reliance, and I think that this year I guess in total feel that perhaps the minister is less knowledgeable about mining than he was the year before. He is still a rookie. I mean he only got the position a year ago, so I think that there is room to improve. I am not even talking about his vocabulary in terms of geological terms which is a challenge to anybody.

But my serious concerns I have to put on the record because mining is at a critical stage right now, because I believe that it is essential to Manit oba's economy, because I believe it deserves the respect and attention of a government which unfortunately it is not getting. One of the first things that was evident is the lack of mining experience in the minister's executive office. This was a decision by the minister. I completely understand. I respect the deputy minister; however, really there is a marked lack of expertise m the minister's office.

Item two, there is the issue of three individu als, I understand, of the five that work only part time for the department, probably a maximum amount of 50 percent devoted to Energy and Mines, the rest being to Northern Affairs, while their salary is totally supported by the department. I know the minister indicated he would look at that. I hope he does. I think that is not representing the situation as it should be in terms of Estimates. Salaries should reflect the jobs they do.

Item three, the department goals which are established to support the department's mission appear to be changeable at whim without consultation of the stakeholders, the partners-and basically from my perspective to ensure that they are met. Sometimes goals are met and sometimes they are not met, but the idea is that there is a process, that they are challenging and something that we all work towards. It is a real concern to me when goals can be changed at whim by the minister or by the department, and I have to object to that.

Item four, as noted by the motion that I presented, the withdrawal, the unprecedented withdrawal of $6 mill ion from the Mining Reserve Fund, a fund that was established with the. I think, clear intent, as articulated in the bilL to provide that support to mining communities, the workers in those communities at times of crisis when a mine is about to close or is losing reserves. That is all articulated clearly in the Mi ning Reserve Fund act. I am not challenging that what they did has somehow broken the law.

Clearly those provisions are there, that there is the ability of the government to take the money out, but for the 27 years I believe that the Mining Reserve Fund has existed, it has never been done before. The funds have been directed to provide supports for those mining communities, and we have a serious difference of philosophy and opinion on this. I obviously do not support using the Mi ning Reserve Fund for exploration in areas, speculative exploration. These are programs that are looking at the long term. What that fund to me seems-it was directed at providing immediate supports to the workers in those

April 30, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2419 mining communities. So I feel that this is a serious, serious concern, and I have to express my objection. Item five, serious concerns I have raised about the monitoring and inspections of MEAPs, a program in which exploration companies receive money. For instance, we learnt during this process that there have been no field inspections since May of 1997. I know that this was raised here. The minister indicated his concern, and I think that there will be improvements, but this is now the second year and the improvements may come at the end of MEAP.

I sort of heard hints from the minister that we may be looking at other options, but when there is public money there must be the serious attempt to monitor and ensure that that money is spent as indicated and that the people of Manitoba are getting a meaningful return, and that includes field inspections by competent personnel who know what they are supposed to be looking for and in a co-ordinated approach. *

(1550) Item six, the fact that the department encourages exploration companies to work in Manitoba without specifically identifying, in our case, this year, resource management lands. These are lands identified in co operation with First Nations by encouraging companies, and we have a very significant expansion in the Marketing branch. This has been ongoing for several years. There is no onus or there is not an equal onus required by that branch to ensure that the respect and the awareness and the sensitivity is also provided to those exploration companies.

The priority seems, explore, explore, explore and they should know better than to go on First Nations land. Well, we are actively encouraging exploration companies to come into Manitoba, we should also be respecting First Nations, their aspirations and their need to be aware of what is happening in lands that they have identified.

Item seven, the issuance of public monies through the MEAP program to promote and actively provide exploration in lands identified by First Nations without requiring these companies to register any type of disposition, that is, the exploration permit or any other type of public notice that they are into those lands. Had that been given, the situation which we discussed in some detail would not have happened. The community in question would have been able to access that information, raised concerns with the minister or at least meet with the companies to find out what type of activity was going to happen.

But by not requiring companies to issue or to hold an exploration program while still receiving public money I feel is a serious concern and flies in the face of the words of the minister when he talks about respect and working in partnership with First Nations. There must be that type of open accountability, especially for companies that receive public money. Item eight: The issue of the Systemhouse deal apparently is not going to be very useful, if of any use to the department. I understand that the department is way ahead of what Systemhouse is providing.

They have done a very good job in providing high tech, some of the best technical upgrading in the department. Their equipment surpasses what is available through Systemhouse. They are going to be required to keep three of the four personnel that they had who maintained the whole system, so they are going to be required to pay additional money for Systemhouse as well as keeping that support staff. That to me seems to be totally ina ppropriate. We are using money for something that is, in this case, not providing the information or the base that this department needs.

It is highly technical and moving ahead and in fact may even hold back the department if they complied with just receiving the Systemhouse desktop program. So that is another area. I know that it is a government comprehensive program that is adopted by the government, but I think in this case it is going to be costly and not particularly effective for the department or for the people of Manitoba. And ultimately No. 10: The minister's lack of knowle dge of the department mining numbers, his knowledge of the mining industry seems apparent, and that is extremely unfortunate.

I think that the minister shows sincere interest and effort and I do not blame him. I think that he has got on his plate a very large mandate, including very important sectors that are very time-consuming and demanding, but mining is extremely important to the people of Manitoba, extremely important to the revenues of the government and deserves the attention of the minister, his senior staff, and I feel that in this case, the mining sector has been shortchanged and that is extremely unfortunate.

2420 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 30, 1998 But overall I have always enjoyed working with the mini ster who has been very co-operative and provided in formation, and so it is with some regret that I condemn his performance as the Mi nis ter of Mines, although he seems li ke a very nice person, not too knowledgeable about this area.

I think that there is enormous room to improve, and on a serious note, that mining and the mining sector needs di rect attention at this time, given commodity prices are falling, people are losing their jobs, and there is a number of very serious situations in Manitoba's mining community. I thank the minis ter for his co-operation in provi ding information and look forward to next year. Mr. Chairperson: 23.1. Admini stration and Fin ance (

a) Mini ster's Salary. Mr. Newman: I think I need a transfusion because of the bite in my lip. The only comment that I will make is I really do appreciate the honourable member for St. James doing my annual evaluation. and it demonstrated the sort of quality that was befitting a candidate for one-half of the job that I now have- aspiring candidate for the job that I now have. Mr. Chairperson: $13, 200-pass. 23.1.(

a) Mini ster's Salary Resolution 23.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1. 156,900 for Energy and Mines, Admini stration and Fin ance. for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1999. This now concludes the Estimates of the Department of Energy and Min es. The next set of Estim ates that we will be considering in this

section of the Committee of Supply is the Esti mates of Civil Service. What is the will of the committee? Proceed. CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION Mr. Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will be considering the Estimates of the Civil Service Commission. The honourable mini ster responsible for the Civil Service Commission, do you have an opening statement? Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister charged with the administration of The Civil Service Act ): I do, thank you. Mr.

Chairman, in introducing the budget Estimates for the Civil Service Commission for 1998- 99, I would draw attention to the Supplementary Esti mates Information which has been provided and contains a good deal of organizational program and financial in formation to assist the members with the Estimates review now before us. The budget Estimates for the Civi l Service Commission for 1998-99 show an in crease of approximately $1 07,000, from $4,087,000 to $4,258,0 00. This inc rease can be largely attributed to two factors.

The first results from additi onal operating costs associated with the im plementation of the government-wide desktop management initiative involving the installation and upgrading of computer work stations and related software. The second involves salary increases related to the three-year collective agreement which has been applied equally to staff excluded from the bargaining unit, which would include staff of the Civil Service Commission. The staff year complement for the Civil Service Commission also shows an increase of six staff from 81 to 87.

These additional staff years will accommodate the third intake for the Management Internship Program for a total of 18 staff years associated with that program. During 1998-99, it is expected that the original six interns will graduate from the program and be placed in career positions throughout government. * (1 600) Mr.

Chairman. in my opening remarks in May of last year, I made reference to the fact that collective bargaining would be a major priority within the Civil Service Commission during 1997, and I was hopeful a sati sfactory settlement would be achieved consistent with the government's bargaining framework. As the members opposite will know, last fall the government was successful in achieving a three-year collective agreement with the Manitoba Government Employees' Union covering the period of March 29, 1997, through to March 24, the year 2000.

The achievement of a longer-term settlement has provided a period of labour relations stabi li ty in which the focus of the Civil Service Commission can now tum toward some of the longer-term corporate human

April 30, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 242 1 resource management issues facing government. As an example, the Civil Service Commission currently has several staff seconded to and participating in the Better Methods project, which involves a complete updating and redevelopment of the government's corporate financial and human resource management inf ormation systems. These systems will have a significant impact on the way the Civil Service Commission manages inf ormation and conducts its business in the future.

In addition, the conversion of the new software applications contained within the Better Methods project holds a solution for the Civil Service Commission with respect to the year 2000 issue. The current and outdated management and employee inf ormation system is not year 2000 compliant, so it is important that commission resources be directed towards resolving this issue. The Civil Service Commission continues to explore and expand the use of technology to improve access to services.

Two years ago, government employment inf ormation was made available on-line through the ACCESS 1- 2-3 employment inf ormation service. This year, a completely revised and updated personnel policy manual will be made available through the government-wide Internet providing human resource professionals, managers and employees on-line access to the personnel policies and practices which affect them. In addition, the course calendar for organization and staff development will be on-line with a future intent to develop and include inf ormation on employee benefits and the Employee Assistance Program.

These developments are all consistent with the broader principles of accessibility and transparency in the distribution of inf ormation to employees across government. As referenced earlier, workforce renewal initiatives, such as the Management Internship Program, will be entering its third year with the expectation that the original six interns will be placed in positions throughout 19 98-99, allowing room for an additional six interns to be hired the following year.

Six new int erns are currently in the process of being recruited for 19 98-99, with the expectation that the new interns will be appointed sometime in May of 19 98. In addition, the Aboriginal Management Development Project directed at the development of existing aboriginal employees is entering its second year, and the Civil Service Commission will be providing support to a new aboriginal public administration program.

This new program is designed to recruit and introduce external aboriginal candidates, with a priority on youth, to the systems and processes of government over a two-year internship that would prepare the interns for employment in government. These initiatives are all designed in recognition of the aging demographics within the Manitoba public service and the need to prepare the service for the transition and renewal that will be required over the coming years. With those, brief opening remarks, Mr. Chairperson, I would now welcome any questions. Mr.

Chairperson: We thank the honourable minister for those comments. Does the critic for the offi cial opposition have an opening statement? Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): No, I would prefer to just go right into questions, if possible. Mr. Chairperson: We thank the critic for the official opposition for those remarks. We invite the minister's staff to join us at the table, and we would ask the minister to introduce his staff when they are present. Mr. Gilleshammer: Joining me at the table is Paul Hart, the Civil Service commissioner. On his left, Gerry Irving, assistant deputy minister, Labour Relations; and Mr.

Bob Pollock, director, Human Resources Programs Branch. Mr. Chairperson: We thank the minister. We will now proceed to line 17 .1 . Civil Service Commission (

a) Executive Office ( 1) Salaries and Employee Benefits on page 22 of the main Estimate book. Shall the item pass? Ms. Barrett: Before we get to subappropriation 17 .l .(a), I would like to ask the minister a question about chart 4 on page 15 of the Estimates book, well, actually charts 3 and 4 in combination which is distribution of salaries and distribution of staff positions. As I look at this, actually I was struck by the fact that three of the four pieces of the pie have a higher

2422 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 30, 1998 percentage of salaries than their percentage of staff positions. The fourth piece, which is the largest piece in both categories, oh, second largest piece in the salaries and by far the first largest piece in the number of staff positions. The Human Resource Management Services has over 20 percent less of the pie when it comes to staff salaries as it does when it comes to the number of people.

What I am trying to say is 55 percent of the positio ns in the Civil Service Commission are in the Human Resource Management Services, but only 35 percent of the money goes in that category. When I read through the Estimates, it is clear to me, at least I think it is, that that is, if I could use the word, the guts of the Civil Service Commi ssion. It is where the vast majority of the activities of the commission take place, or certainly it is the area where there is most direct connection with the members of the civil service. I just have one question.

I am wondering if the mi nister can tell us in the Human Resource Management Services category what the ratio is of men to women.? Mr. Gilleshammer: I am inf ormed by a rough calculation to give the member an answer that probably three-quarters of the staff in that area would be women and the other quarter would be men. Ms. Barrett: Yes, and I wonder, as a follow-up question, if the minister could give me the same rough calculations for the other three categories: Executive Office, Admin Services and Labour Relation Services. *

(1610) Mr. Gilleshammer: In what is called the Executive Office, 50 percent of the staff there are male and 50 percent are female. In the Admin Services, I will just give you the numbers and you can figure out the percentages. Out of 14 staff, one of them is male and 13 are female. In the Labour Relations, about two thirds of them are women and one-third men. Ms. Barrett: I appreciate the minis ter's in formation on that. I would like to go-we are at subappropriation 17 .l .(a), are we not? [i nterjection] Thank you. I am also looking now not only at the Estimates book but at the annual report for '96-97.

I will be through the Estimates process sort of going back and forth, because sometimes there is more inf ormation in the annual report than there is in the Estimates book in other things.

Under the Expected Results in the Estimates, it says "ongoing review and revision to the business plan, role and mission for the Civil Service Commission," and in the annual report it states that the mission is "to contribute cost effective and client focused strategies, policies, and services that meet the needs of executive government and departmental management." I am wondering if the mini ster can identif y who the client is in this mission statement. Mr.

Gilleshammer: The clients that are served by the Civil Service Commission are departments of government and government employees, as well as, the general public. Ms. Barrett: The second mission statement in the annual report says "'to antici pate the human resource implications of a constantly changing environment and prepare options for management to address those implicatio ns." I would like to ask the minis ter if he could anticipate some of the elements in that constantly changing envi ronment to look a little in advance and see what kinds of things are being looked at. Mr.

Gilleshammer: To serve the clients that we referenced, the departments and the employees and the general public, there are a number of challenges that face the Civil Service Commission. Probably the one that comes to mind first is the technological change that we are faced within the workforce. I referenced others in my opening comments. We have an aging workforce. We have changing demographics. I referenced the in ternship program, and we also referenced an aboriginal internship program. We have two dif ferent programs there.

So these are, I guess, items in society that the staff at the Civil Service Commission must take into consideration as they not only plan the programs but also try and determine the nature of the workforce that is going to be required in coming months and coming years. Certainly, we are also concerned with the fact that there appears to be shortages of skilled people in some

April 30, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2423 areas and also the competition we face from private sector, partic ularly for individuals that have technological skills that are in high demand across North America and across the world. So staff, I believe, do their best to anticipate some of the changes that we are going to face as we move into the next few years and into the next century. Ms. Barrett: The minister spoke about shortages of skiiled people in some areas and in technological areas.

Are the shortages largely in the technological areas, or what areas are there shortages of skiiled people in the civil service today? Mr. Gilleshammer: That would be the best example and the primary area of concern at the moment. Ms. Barrett: What kind of technological skills are we talking about here? A little more specific. Mr. Gilleshammer: Some areas of concern are in the area of inf ormation technology, systems management staff, project management staff, and database administrators . Ms. Barrett: Mr. Chair, I understand all those individual words, but I do not know exactly what they all mean in this context.

So, what is a systems management person? Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, we have a special operating agency within the Civil Service Commission called Organization and Staff Development. They are responsible for putting forth many of the programs that staff require to stay current as far as technology goes and to update on their skills. I know even from within a small complement within the civil service in my own office, from time to time they are accessing programs like that.

Perhaps we could arrange to have an overview by individuals in that partic ular SOA to inform the member of some of the courses and some of the curri culum that is being used. Ms. Barrett: I appreciate that. Would that help me understand more of what the areas that the minister said in his earlier answer were shortages? Would discussion with the SOA give me some of that inf ormation? What exactly do these categories of individuals do? Mr. Jack Penner, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair Mr. Gilleshammer: I am sure it would be hel pful to have that overview.

Probably the best person to get into more detail on that is the chief inf ormation officer who has just come into the system, Mr. Kal Ruberg, who has been with us just a matter of weeks. But what I am finding, and I think seeing, is that there are highly technical systems that are being used. Changes are going on so rapidly that this is an area where both government and the private sector are expending many hundreds of thousands and mill ions of dollars to put systems in place that are going to provide the inf ormation and the communications abili ties between departments. Mr.

Ruberg, as I have indicated, just started a few weeks ago, but through his offic e, if the member is looking for a global snapshot of what government is doing to provide training and skills and in-servicing for members of the civil service, that may be a good area to start. Ms. Barrett: I will call Mr. Ruberg, and I thank the minister for giving me that inf ormation. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Penner): Item 17 .1 . Civil Service Commission (

a) Executive Office (1 ) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1 70,200-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $61, 600-pass. 17 .l .(

b) Administrative Services (1 ) Salaries and Employee Benefits $535,800. Shall the item pass? * (1 620) Ms. Barrett: No, no. Thank you, Mr. Chair, so I had my hand raised. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Penner): You are welcome. I did not see your hand. Ms. Barrett: I know you did not. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Penner): I was reading. Ms. Barrett: This is where we would discuss Systemhouse? Is this the appropriate place to discuss Systemhouse?

2424 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 30, 1998 Mr. Gilleshammer: Probably the best place to discuss it would be in the Estimates for the Department of Government Services, but the part of that initiative that affects the Civil Service Commission would be lodged in this particular line. Ms. Barrett: How many pieces of equipment? I do not know if you could call them terminals, what the technical term is-I am a Luddite of the first order-but how many terminals will there be in the Civil Service Ms. Barrett: Could the minister explain what central government means? Mr.

Gilleshammer: Well, it means that individual departments are not going to find their own solution to that. There will be a government-wide solution, and I know that solution is being worked on. Ms. Barrett: And who is working on that solution? Commission upon conclusion of the Systemhouse Mr. Gilleshammer: Staff within Government process? Services. Mr. Gilleshammer: We have already been Ms. Barrett: So the staff within Government Services transitioned, and the number is 65. Ms. Barrett: I did not realize "transitioned'' was now a verb form. Sixty-five terminals. So what is that in relation to the number of staff?

What percentage? Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told now that the transitioning has been completed. it is about one per staff. Ms. Barrett: Could the minister explain what was encompassed in the transition process? Mr. Gilleshammer: The transitioning involved getting rid of the old equipment and bringing in the new equipment, and part of that was also providing two to three days in-service training for the staff. Ms. Barrett: Two to three days in-service training for the staff. Was that provided onsite or did staff go to Systemhouse? How was the training done? Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told it was offsite. Ms.

Barrett: Where are the old computers, the ones they got rid of? Where are they now? Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told they are in storage. Ms. Barrett: Are they going to remain in storage, or is there some anticipated further use for the no longer required PCs? Mr. Gilleshammer: That, ultimat ely, is a central government decision which has not been finalized yet. are working, I assume, in consultation with staff of other departments to determine what happens to these outdated pieces of equipment, or will they decide on their own what will happen to them? Mr.

Gilleshammer: They are taking the lead on that and certainly will take advice from other people within government, but Government Services certainly is the department responsible. Ms. Barrett: Is there anywhere in the Estimates or in any one of the line items-oh, I guess there is. There is the 34.7 item there for Desktop Services on page 33 under 17 -I c. Is that the total cost for-oh, no, wait a minute. Okay. I have a problem here. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Penner): Are we still dealing with the same line item that we were dealing with before. or have we skipped to diff erent line item? Yes.

We were discussing Item 17 .l .(

b) Administrative Services (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits, and

(2) Other Expenditures. Have we moved on? Ms. Barrett: I am not going by the budget book; I am going by the Estimates book. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Penner): Hmm, I need some advice here as to how I maintain a semblance of order in moving along in my book and how we co ordinate that with your book. If the committee would consent, I mean, I can move ahead and then move back again; however, I would ask that we might give consideration to Administrative Services, that line, and then move on from there. -

April 30, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2425 Ms. Barrett: I made the mistake. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Penner): Okay, let us move back then to (

b) Administrative Services. Ms. Barrett: Please, yes. Thank you. I apologize for this. Okay, under Other Operating, I am having a bit of difficu lty figuring out what the two columns mean. I am assuming, because I did not do the math myself, that the 13 4.4 is a

summary of Other Operating, is then itemized by 34.4, 82.8 and 17 .2. Is that accurate? Mr. Gillesharnmer: That is correct. Ms. Barrett: Okay, so the Desktop Services number of 34.4 is the full estimate of this cost of the utilization of the Systemhouse system? Mr. Gillesharnrner: For that branch, that is correct. Ms. Barrett: For the Administrative Services branch. Okay, can the minister explain the elements that make up that partic ular item? Is that for training or the purchase or lease of the machines? What elements go into the Desktop Services? Mr.

Gillesharnrner: It would be for the hardware, the software, the training. Those would be the most signific ant components. * (1 630) Ms. Barrett: A two-part question. One, is it possible to get, if not right now if you do not have it but later, a breakdown of those three components that make up the 34.4, and, secondly, where in the Estimates is the cost of the contract? I am assuming there is a contract at Systemhouse, an administra tive contract or something. Is that the 82.8, or where is that found in the Estimates? Mr.

Gillesharnrner: Yes, we are talking about 14 staff, 14 work stations, and that would be the cost of, as I indicated, the hardware, the software, the trai ning, and the ongoing support. Ms. Barrett: What is the ongoing support? Mr. Gillesharnrner: Well, it is I guess more commonly called the help desk. Ms. Barrett: It may be more commonly called that by the minister, but I have never heard the phrase, so what does the help desk mean? Mr.

Gillesharnrner: If any of these 14 individ uals, whi lst at work on their equipment, requires help, they can phone the help desk and the problem perhaps could be solved over the phone, as I know it often is, or if it is more complex than that, someone could even visit the site and give them the assis tance. So it is estimated that part of the $34,400 for these 14 individ uals, which encompasses their hardware, software, training is also apportioned to what is known as the help desk. Ms.

Barrett: Yes, and I can see how you can come up with some pretty concrete figures for the hardware, the software, and the work stations, et cetera, and the training, as you said has already taken place, but how do you apportion the help desk figure? Is there a global figure cost that is charged to the Civi l Service Commission and then prorated by the number of work stations? Mr. Gillesharnrner: I am told the organization known as SHL has been in this business for many, many years, and this is part of the estimate that is built into the contract for this kind of assistance. Ms.

Barrett: So the costs for the administrative servic es for the desktop services, the SHL contract if you will, for the startup year-no, this is the first year. Wait a minute-let me go back. The minister said that the transition had taken place, so the training had already taken place. Is the cost for the training for these 14 people reflected in this figure-it must have been, it would not have been in last year's, or would it? Mr. Gillesharnrner: This is the 19 98 expenditure Estimates, so this is the cost that would be in the current year budget for hardware, software, training, and the help desk.

Some of the training is ongoing. Ms. Barrett: But the training started in this fiscal year, so all the training would be reflected in this fiscal year. Mr. Gillesharnrner: Yes, the training is reflected here and this is the training for 19 98, and as a result is part of this budget.

2426 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 30, 19 98 Ms. Barrett: Does the min ister anticipate that the training element of this item would be lessened year over year because of the fact that the startup training has been done with current staff? Mr. Gilleshammer: We anticipate that as new software is developed and comes into the system and as there are staff changes, there will have to be a component within this line set aside for training. It is a little premature to get into the 19 99 budget, but probably within three or four months that process will start. But we anticipate there will be training needs. Ms.

Barrett: What is meant by machine utilization figure? Mr. Gilleshamme r: This line, I am told, is there because we still operate under a main frame system and, as in coming years, that expenditure will no longer, for the main frame, be required; but there may be expenditures for other equipment. Ms. Barrett: I have not been attending all of the other Estimates, but it is my understanding that there is in some other departments an estimate of, say, the next five years of the cost of the computers. I believe the Department of Education has made that estimate.

Does the minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission have that kind of a long-term cost? You have a contract, do you not, with Systemhouse? Mr. Gilleshammer: There are some aspects that I think are fixed term cost, but you would have to get that from the Department of Government Services. We do not have projections out into the future that, I think, what the member is looking for. Ms. Barrett: So the department did not sign a contract with Systemhouse. The government signed a master contract with Systemhouse through the Department of Government Services? Mr. Gilleshammer: That is correct. Ms.

Barrett: The minister talked about, in an earlier answer, the need for more software to be developed as things change. Who generates the request? I am assuming Systemhouse develops the software or causes to be developed. Who develops the software and as a result of what? Mr. Gilleshammer: Systemhouse, I am told, will purchase that depending on the needs of government and, in our case, the needs of our department. Ms.

Barrett: So the department makes a request of Systemhouse for software in a particular area, and Systemhouse subcontracts or contracts out to another organization, or however, and then delivers the software to the department? Is that the process? Mr. Gilleshammer: If we have an opportunity to have some input to let people know what our needs are, their task would be to secure it, and we would purchase it. Ms. Barrett: So the purchase of software is not covered under the-there is not a sort of an element of the master contract as there is in the help desk about software?

Software is an additional charge that would be levied by Systemhouse to the department upon request of the department? * (16 40) Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes. There is a standard package. It is called the basic office suite. If we have require ments beyond that, we can attempt to secure it. Ms. Barrett: Would it be secured through System house, or could you secure it from another source? Mr. Gilleshammer: It has to be compatible with the Systemhouse system, but it may be secured from some other source. It has to be installed by them and compatible. Ms. Barrett: Okay, I think that is all on that at this point.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Penner): Item 17 .1 (

b) Administrative Services

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $535,8 00-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $290,000-pass. (

c) Human Resource Management Services. Ms. Barrett: I would like to ask some questions about both the Management Internship Program and the -

April 30, 1998 LEGISLAT IVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 2427 Aboriginal Management Development Project. The mini ster spoke about them in his opening remarks and actually, I would say, hig hlighted these two programs when he talked about the aging workforce and the demographics of our province that are changing. It sounds to me as though they expect the Aboriginal Management Project and the Management Internship Program to assist government in addressing these issues. I would not disagree with him in any of his comments about the face of Manitoba changing.

So I am looking at the annual report where there is a paragraph on each of them, but it is not very detail ed. Fi rst, with the Management Internship Program, did it just begin or is it in it s first term or when did it begin? Mr. Gilleshammer: If the member would like, I could put on the record some detail on it. Then, if there is still more inf ormation you need, you can ask questions from there. Okay. The Management Internship Program is a new initia tive approved in the 1995-96 Esti mates. It is co-ordinated by the Civil Service Commission.

The objective is to proactively recruit younger, talented employees to assist in meeting future requirements of government consistent with public service renewal and change. Five or six interns are recruited each year, and this is planned over a period of four or five years. It is centrally managed. There are rotational work assignments. There is the central orientation. There is structured training and mentoring over a two- to three year period designed to provide accelerated learning and maximum exposure to government operations.

The ultimate goal is placement in a mid dle management or professional career position within government departments. I know that there were six interns brought on a year ago that I had the opportunity to meet, and we are just in the process of recruiting six more. The six in terns recruited in May of 1996 are all moving into the third year of the program and I am told they are all doing extremely well. Five interns recruited in May of 1997 have completed ori entation and their first assignments. I am also told that they are doing well.

I have indicated we are recruiting some in May of 1998 and during 1998-99 the original six interns will graduate from the program and be placed in career positio ns throughout government. Of course, the graduation of the first six interns will allow room for an additional six next year. I could also provide for my honourable friend the internship short guide and another pamphlet here providing some inf ormation on it that I think she would find helpful, so I will table that with the clerk. Ms.

Barrett: I appreciate the min ister giving me an overview on that, and I have a few questions which may be covered in the material that he has tabled, but I will ask them anyway. He says that five to six are recruited each year. What is the recruitment process? Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told t

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-4-40b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 4th hansardpdf 40b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	744f4a7b9e82b3eb38056b6bab6dc0a4a00ed569

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