British Columbia Hansard — Monday, May 16, 2011

H0516pm-02

British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session, 39th Parliament official rePort of Debates of the Legis Lative a ssemb Ly (hansarD) the honourable bill bari Soff, SPeaker iSSn 0709-1281 Monday, May 16, 2011 Afternoon Sitting Volume 22, Number 2

Pro Vince of britiS h colu Mbia (entered c onfederation July 20, 1871) lieutenant -Go Vernor h is h onour the h onourable Steven l.

Point, obc Third Session, 39th Parliament SPeaker of the leGiS latiVe a SSeMbl Y h onourable bill barisoff eXecutiVe council Premier and President of the executive c ouncil .............................................................................................................. h on. c hristy c lark Deputy Premier and Minister of finance ............................................................................................................................h on. k evin f alcon Minister of a boriginal r elations and r econciliation ...........................................................................................................h on.

Mary Polak Minister of a dvanced e ducation .................................................................................................................................h on. n aomi Y amamoto Minister of a griculture ........................................................................................................................................................... h on.

Don Mcr ae a ttorney General ........................................................................................................................................................... h on. barry Penner, Qc Minister of c hildren and f amily Development ................................................................................................................ h on.

Mary Mcn eil Minister of c ommunity, Sport and cultural Development .................................................................................................. h on. ida c hong Minister of e ducation .........................................................................................................................................................h on.

George a bbott Minister of energy and Mines and Minister r esponsible for h ousing.........................................................................h on. r ich c oleman Minister of environment ....................................................................................................................................................h on. Dr. t erry l ake Minister of f orests, l ands and n atural r esource o perations......................................................................................h on.

Steve Thomson Minister of h ealth .................................................................................................................................................... h on. Michael de Jong, Qc Minister of Jobs, t ourism and innovation ................................................................................................................................... h on. Pat bell Minister of l abour, citizens' Services and o pen Government .............................................................................. h on.

Stephanie c adieux Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General .................................................................................................................h on.

Shirley bond Minister of Social Development and Minister r esponsible for Multiculturalism ............................................................ h on. h arry bloy Minister of t ransportation and infrastructure ................................................................................................................h on. blair l ekstrom leGiS latiVe a SSeMbl Y l eader of the official o pposition ......................................................................................................................................................a drian Dix Deputy Speaker .................................................................................................................................................................................... l inda r eid a ssistant Deputy Speaker ..................................................................................................................................................................Dawn black Deputy c hair, c ommittee of the Whole ...................................................................................................................................Douglas h orne c lerk of the l egislative a ssembly...................................................................................................................e.

George MacMinn, obc, Q c c lerk a ssistant ..................................................................................................................................................................................r obert Vaive c lerk a ssistant and l aw c lerk................................................................................................................................................. ian D. izard, Qc c lerk a ssistant and c lerk of c ommittees ............................................................................................................... craig h.

James (on leave) c lerk a ssistant and a cting c lerk of c ommittees ................................................................................................................. k ate r yan-l loyd Sergeant-at-a rms ................................................................................................................................................................................. Gary l enz

alP habetical liS t of MeMberS a bbott, h on. George (l) ........................................................................ Shuswap a ustin, r obin (nDP) ................................................................................ Skeena bains, h arry (nDP) ....................................................................Surrey-n ewton barisoff, h on. bill (l) ............................................................................Penticton barnett, Donna (l) ................................................................ c ariboo-c hilcotin bell, h on.

Pat (l) ..................................................... Prince George–Mackenzie bennett, bill (l) .............................................................................k ootenay e ast black, Dawn (nDP) ................................................................n ew Westminster black, iain (l) .............................................................. Port Moody–c oquitlam bloy, h on. h arry (l) ............................................................burnaby-l ougheed bond, h on.

Shirley (l) ...........................................Prince George–Valemount brar, Jagrup (nDP) ................................................................ Surrey-fleetwood c adieux, h on. Stephanie (l) ................................................Surrey-Panorama c antelon, r on (l) ..............................................................

Parksville-Qualicum c handra h erbert, Spencer (nDP) ................................Vancouver–West end c hong, h on. ida (l) ..................................................... o ak bay–Gordon h ead c houhan, r aj (nDP) ........................................................... burnaby-e dmonds c oell, Murray (l) ..............................................Saanich n orth and the islands c oleman, h on. r ich (l) ........................................... f ort l angley–a ldergrove c onroy, katrine (nDP) .............................................................. k ootenay West c oons, Gary (nDP) .........................................................................n orth c oast c orrigan, k athy (nDP) ..................................................... burnaby–Deer l ake Dalton, Marc (l) ..............................................................

Maple r idge–Mission de Jong, h on. Michael, Qc (l) .............................................. a bbotsford West Dix, a drian (nDP) ............................................................Vancouver-kingsway Donaldson, Doug (nDP) ......................................................................... Stikine e lmore, Mable (nDP) ................................................... Vancouver-kensington f alcon, h on. k evin (l) ..........................................................Surrey-c loverdale f arnworth, Mike (nDP) ............................................................

Port c oquitlam fleming, r ob (nDP) .......................................................... Victoria–Swan l ake f oster, eric (l) .......................................................................Vernon-Monashee f raser, Scott (nDP) ............................................................a lberni–Pacific r im Gentner, Guy (nDP) .........................................................................Delta n orth h ammell, Sue (nDP) .................................................... Surrey–Green t imbers h ansen, c olin (l) ............................................................

Vancouver-Quilchena h awes, r andy (l) ............................................................... a bbotsford-Mission h ayer, Dave S. (l) .................................................................... Surrey-t ynehead h eed, k ash (l) ................................................................ Vancouver-fraserview h ogg, Gordon (l) ............................................................... Surrey–White r ock h organ, John (nDP) .......................................................................

Juan de f uca h orne, Douglas (l) ..............................................c oquitlam–b urke Mountain h oward, r ob (l) .....................................................................r ichmond c entre h untington, Vicki (ind.) ..................................................................Delta South James, c arole (nDP) .........................................................Victoria–b eacon h ill k aragianis, Maurine (nDP) ........................................e squimalt–r oyal r oads k rog, l eonard (nDP) ........................................................................... n anaimo k rueger, kevin (l) ............................................... k amloops–South Thompson kwan, Jenny Wai ching (nDP) ...........................

Vancouver–Mount Pleasant l ake, h on. Dr. t erry (l) .....................................k amloops–n orth Thompson l ali, h arry (nDP) ..........................................................................f raser-n icola l ee, r ichard t . (l) .......................................................................burnaby n orth l ekstrom, h on. blair (l) .......................................................

Peace r iver South l es, John (l) .........................................................................................c hilliwack l etnick, n orm (l) ........................................................k elowna–l ake c ountry MacDiarmid, Dr. Margaret (l) ......................................... Vancouver-fairview Macdonald, n orm (nDP) ....................................c olumbia r iver–r evelstoke Mcintyre, Joan (l) ..................................................West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Mcn eil, h on. Mary (l) .................................................Vancouver–f alse creek Mcr ae, h on.

Don (l) ................................................................... c omox Valley Mungall, Michelle (nDP) ..........................................................n elson-creston Penner, hon. barry, Qc (l) ....................................................c hilliwack-h ope Pimm, Pat (l) ..........................................................................Peace r iver n orth Polak, h on.

Mary (l) ...............................................................................l angley Popham, l ana (nDP) ...................................................................Saanich South r alston, bruce (nDP) ................................................................

Surrey-Whalley r eid, l inda (l) .............................................................................r ichmond e ast r outley, bill (nDP) .................................................................. c owichan Valley r outley, Doug (nDP) ............................................n anaimo–n orth c owichan r ustad, John (l) ........................................................................... n echako l akes Sather, Michael (nDP) ......................................... Maple r idge–Pitt Meadows Simons, n icholas (nDP) ...................................

Powell r iver–Sunshine c oast Simpson, bob (ind.) .....................................................................c ariboo n orth Simpson, Shane (nDP) .....................................................Vancouver-hastings Slater, John (l) ..............................................................boundary-Similkameen Stewart, ben (l) ..................................................................... Westside-kelowna Stilwell, Dr. Moira (l) ......................................................... Vancouver-l angara Sultan, r alph (l) .....................................................

West Vancouver–capilano Thomson, hon.

Steve (l) ........................................................k elowna-Mission Thorne, Diane (nDP) .................................................c oquitlam-Maillardville Thornthwaite, Jane (l) .......................................... n orth Vancouver–Seymour t revena, c laire (nDP) .................................................................... n orth island van Dongen, John (l) .............................................................a bbotsford South Y amamoto, hon. n aomi (l) ................................. n orth Vancouver–l onsdale Y ap, John (l) .......................................................................r ichmond-Steveston Vacant ...............................................................................Vancouver–Point Grey liS t of MeMberS bY riD in G a bbotsford-Mission .......................................................................r andy h awes a bbotsford South .....................................................................John van Dongen a bbotsford West ......................................................h on.

Michael de Jong, Qc a lberni–Pacific r im ..........................................................................

Scott f raser boundary-Similkameen .....................................................................John Slater burnaby–Deer l ake ................................................................... k athy c orrigan burnaby-e dmonds ......................................................................... r aj c houhan burnaby-l ougheed ...................................................................h on. h arry bloy burnaby n orth .............................................................................. r ichard t . l ee c ariboo-c hilcotin ........................................................................Donna barnett c ariboo n orth ................................................................................ bob Simpson c hilliwack ...............................................................................................

John l es c hilliwack-h ope .......................................................... h on. barry Penner, Qc c olumbia r iver–r evelstoke .................................................. n orm Macdonald c omox Valley...........................................................................h on. Don Mcr ae c oquitlam–b urke Mountain .....................................................Douglas h orne c oquitlam-Maillardville...............................................................

Diane Thorne c owichan Valley ................................................................................ bill r outley Delta n orth ......................................................................................Guy Gentner Delta South ...............................................................................Vicki h untington e squimalt–r oyal r oads .....................................................Maurine k aragianis f ort l angley–a ldergrove ...................................................h on. r ich c oleman f raser-n icola........................................................................................ h arry l ali Juan de f uca .....................................................................................John h organ k amloops–n orth Thompson ............................................ h on.

Dr. t erry l ake k amloops–South Thompson ...................................................... k evin k rueger k elowna–l ake c ountry ...............................................................n orm l etnick k elowna-Mission .............................................................. h on.

Steve Thomson k ootenay e ast ....................................................................................bill bennett k ootenay West ............................................................................ k atrine c onroy l angley.......................................................................................h on. Mary Polak Maple r idge–Mission .....................................................................

Marc Dalton Maple r idge–Pitt Meadows ........................................................Michael Sather n anaimo ......................................................................................... l eonard k rog n anaimo–n orth c owichan ......................................................... Doug r outley n echako l akes ..................................................................................

John r ustad n elson-creston ........................................................................Michelle Mungall n ew Westminster ..............................................................................Dawn black n orth c oast....................................................................................... Gary c oons n orth island .................................................................................. c laire t revena n orth Vancouver–l onsdale ........................................h on. n aomi Y amamoto n orth Vancouver–Seymour .................................................

Jane Thornthwaite o ak bay–Gordon h ead ............................................................ h on. ida c hong Parksville-Qualicum ..................................................................... r on c antelon Peace r iver n orth ................................................................................Pat Pimm Peace r iver South ...............................................................h on. blair l ekstrom Penticton................................................................................... h on. bill barisoff Port c oquitlam ..........................................................................Mike f arnworth Port Moody–c oquitlam ...................................................................... iain black Powell r iver–Sunshine c oast ................................................. n icholas Simons Prince George–Mackenzie .............................................................h on.

Pat bell Prince George–Valemount ...................................................h on. Shirley bond r ichmond c entre ............................................................................ r ob h oward r ichmond e ast ................................................................................... l inda r eid r ichmond-Steveston ..............................................................................John Y ap Saanich n orth and the islands .....................................................

Murray c oell Saanich South ................................................................................ l ana Popham Shuswap ...............................................................................h on.

George a bbott Skeena .............................................................................................. r obin a ustin Stikine ........................................................................................Doug Donaldson Surrey-c loverdale .................................................................h on. k evin f alcon Surrey-fleetwood ...............................................................................Jagrup brar Surrey–Green t imbers ..................................................................Sue h ammell Surrey-n ewton ................................................................................. h arry b ains Surrey-Panorama ........................................................ h on.

Stephanie c adieux Surrey-t ynehead ........................................................................... Dave S. h ayer Surrey-Whalley.............................................................................. bruce r alston Surrey–White r ock ....................................................................... Gordon h ogg Vancouver-fairview ................................................ Dr. Margaret MacDiarmid Vancouver–f alse creek ........................................................ h on.

Mary Mcn eil Vancouver-fraserview ........................................................................k ash h eed Vancouver-hastings ....................................................................Shane Simpson Vancouver-kensington .................................................................Mable e lmore Vancouver-kingsway..........................................................................a drian Dix Vancouver-l angara .................................................................Dr.

Moira Stilwell Vancouver–Mount Pleasant ..........................................Jenny Wai ching kwan Vancouver–Point Grey ...............................................................................Vacant Vancouver-Quilchena ................................................................... c olin h ansen Vancouver–West end ...............................................Spencer c handra h erbert Vernon-Monashee ...............................................................................eric f oster Victoria–b eacon h ill .......................................................................c arole James Victoria–Swan l ake.........................................................................r ob fleming West Vancouver–capilano ............................................................. r alph Sultan West Vancouver–Sea to Sky ........................................................

Joan Mcintyre Westside-kelowna .............................................................................ben Stewart Party Standings: l iberal 48; n ew Democratic 34; independent 2; Vacant 1

CONTENTS Monday, May 16, 2011 a fternoon Sitting Page Routine Business introductions by Members ..................................................................................................................................................... 7013 t ributes ..................................................................................................................................................................................... 7013 k ootenay ice hockey championship win b. bennett introductions by Members ..................................................................................................................................................... 7013 t abling Documents ................................................................................................................................................................. 7013 office of the a uditor General, report n o. 2, 2011-2012, Audit of the Academic Ambulatory Care Centre Public Private Partnership: Vancouver Coastal Health Authority british c olumbia l egislative l ibrary, annual report, 2010 Statements (Standing order 25b) ......................................................................................................................................... 7013 Mining industry award recipients r . h awes c oastal Douglas fir ecosystem D. r outley l ocal Government a wareness Week J. l es emergency services awareness S. f raser Dalian delegation visit to burnaby r . l ee f estivals in k ootenays M.

Mungall oral Questions ......................................................................................................................................................................... 7016 Government tax policies after harmonized sales tax referendum b. r alston h on. k. f alcon a nnouncements by Premier and government information on harmonized sales tax D. Donaldson h on. k. f alcon Government tax policies after harmonized sales tax referendum k. c orrigan h on. k. f alcon J. h organ School district payment of property insurance premiums r . a ustin h on.

G. a bbott M. e lmore environmental assessment process for proposed Vancouver island coal mine S. f raser h on. t . l ake Orders of the Day c ommittee of the Whole h ouse ............................................................................................................................................ 7021 bill 6 — civil f orfeiture a mendment a ct, 2011 k. c orrigan h on. S. bond n. Simon s c. t revena M. Dalton

r eport and Third r eading of bills ......................................................................................................................................... 7042 bill 6 — civil f orfeiture a mendment a ct, 2011 Second r eading of bills .......................................................................................................................................................... 7042 bill 7 — Miscellaneous Statutes a mendment a ct, 2011 h on. b. Penner l. k rog J. h organ b. Simpson c. t revena h on. b.

Penner Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room c ommittee of Supply .............................................................................................................................................................. 7050 e stimates: Ministry of f orests, l ands and n atural r esource o perations h on. S. Thomson n. Macdonal d b. r outley

7013 MonD a Y , MaY 16, 2011 The h ouse met at 1:34 p.m. [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] Routine Business Introductions by Members N. Macdonald: i would like the h ouse to join me in welcoming to the h ouse a nthony britneff, who's a good friend from Victoria and who has a lifelong passion for forestry. if the h ouse could please join me in making him welcome. Tributes k ootena Y ice hocke Y chaMP ionShiP Win B. Bennett: it's my great pleasure to announce that the k ootenay ice beat the Portland Winterhawks on f riday night to win the Whl championship. They're go - ing to the Memorial c up.

Introductions by Members S. Fraser: Joining us in the gallery today is a friend of mine, barbara Murray, from n anoose. She's repre - senting Pacific Wild of the Great bear rain forest at an international conference. it's called the international Marine c onservation c ongress, held every two years. it's in Victoria this year. it was in Washington, D.c., last year. She's taken time from that conference to join us here today. Please make her feel very welcome. [1335] R. Hawes: in the gallery today is Sandra c larke. She is the executive director of the act f oundation.

The act f oundation works with the b.c. a mbulance Service and the b.c. paramedics union providing cP r train - ing to students in high schools across british c olumbia. She is here today to have meetings with the Minister of e ducation regarding this program. c ould the h ouse please make her welcome and thank her for all the work that the act f oundation does for the kids in our high schools across british c olumbia. Hon. N.

Y amamoto: it's my great pleasure to introduce to the h ouse members of the t echnology e ducation and c areers c ouncil — that's tecc — who hosted many of our members for lunch today. i'm looking forward, ac - tually, to meeting with them this afternoon. tecc was formed in 2008 by the a pplied Science t echnologists and t echnicians to bring together lead - ers in industry, education and associations to advance engineering and applied science, technology education and careers. Many of the tecc board members are here today. i'll just introduce the chair to the h ouse: Sandy innes. Please make him very welcome.

Hon. G. Abbott: in the gallery today is my execu - tive assistant c hris Sandve. h e is joined by a number of guests, including k irsten h arvie, who is his fiancée; Maggie h arvie, who is k irsten's mom; Jennifer h arvie, k irsten's sister; Sue bermies, who is k irsten's aunt — the whole family pretty much is here; Margaret h arkness, k irsten's nana, which i interpret to be grandma; and Susan Walker, who is a great-aunt of k irsten and who is visiting here from Glasgow, Scotland. So could i please ask the h ouse to make all of our guests welcome. Tabling Documents Mr. Speaker: h on.

Members, i have the honour to present the a uditor General's 2011-2012 report 2, Audit of the Academic Ambulatory Care Centre Public Private Partnership: Vancouver Coastal Health Authority , and the annual report of the british c olumbia l egislative l ibrary, 2010. Statements (Standing Order 25B) Minin G in Du Str Y a War D reci Pient S R.

Hawes: e ach year during Mining Week the miner of the year is announced and recognized. l ast week was Mining Week in british c olumbia, and this year two giants of the industry were recognized. r ob Pease has been a miner for over 30 years, working the bulk of his career in senior management with Placer Dome. in 2006 he formed t errane Metals to develop the Mount Milligan mine northwest of Prince George.

This is a copper-gold project. it's been fully permitted and is now under construction. l ast year t errane was acquired by Thompson creek Mining, and that project is moving ahead and going to provide employment and an eco - nomic boost to the area. Mr. Pease is now a director and strategic adviser to r ichfield Ventures, a gold explora - tion in northern british c olumbia. The irrepressible Jim o'r ourke was part of a team that brought in the endako mine, Gibraltar mine, Quinsam c oal and h uckleberry mine.

Jim managed the Similco mine in Princeton in the '90s when the mine closed. h e later acquired a lease on the minesite and began planning for the c opper Mountain mine. This major redesign and expansion of the old Similco site has given a new lease on life for the people of Princeton. This pine beetle–ravaged area had been suffering, but the jobs and investment provided by c opper Mountain

british c olumbia Debates7014 Monday, May 16, 2011 have turned the local economy around. c opper Moun- tain has been a game changer for the Princeton area and its people. Mr. o'r ourke is also a director of c ompliance energy, which is working to develop the r aven coal project on Vancouver island. While this project has its opponents, they should be comforted by Jim's past. h e's always shown great respect for the communities in which he has developed mining projects.

Sustaining families re - quires jobs and revenue to government to pay for the services those people require. r ob Pease and Jim o 'r ourke have supplied both in abundance. c ongratulations to each for the well-deserved miner of the year awards. coa Stal Dou Gla S fir eco SYSte M D. Routley: i rise to speak about the coastal Douglas fir ecosystem, which is the smallest of the 14 b.c. eco - systems. it is restricted to low elevations along southeast Vancouver island.

The coastal Douglas fir zone is in the rainshadow of Vancouver island and the o lympic Mountains. [1340] r ainstorms hit these mountains first and discharge much of their moisture. c onsequently, the summers are warm and dry, and the winters are mild and wet, al - though drier than most other b.c. coastal zones. This climate creates a unique set of conditions allowing for a diverse group of plants and animals. c oastal Douglas fir ecosystems are among the most imperilled coastal ecosystems.

Since they occur along the coast in regions favoured by people, they were some of the first forest types targeted for logging and cleared for urban and agricultural development. t oday very few older ecosystems remain as isolated islands among a landscape altered by human develop - ment. t rees such as Douglas fir, western red cedar, grand fir, western flowering dogwood, Garry oak and arbutus, as well as endangered species, large animals, black-tailed deer, black bear, cougar, bats, amphibians, the marbled murrelet and the sharp-tailed snake make this area home. c oastal Douglas fir ecosystems are adapted to warm, dry conditions.

They may have a special role to play if this part of the world warms due to climate change as predicted.

Particularly near urban areas, forests are valuable for providing spongy soil and organic matter that allow rainwater to soak into the ground, where it re- plenishes groundwater and is naturally decontaminated as it filters through rock, soil and plant roots. a n emergent industry is the non-timber forest prod - ucts, involving collection and sale of mushrooms, medicinal herbs, berries and floral greens. a s the human population grows in this region, old- growth and older second-growth forests continue to be cleared. only about 0.5 percent of the land base formerly occupied by coastal Douglas fir forest is now comprised of older forests. invasive species also present a hazard.

We need to act to protect this essential eco-climate. local Go VernMent a WareneSS Week J. Les: i am pleased to announce that May 15 to 21 has been declared l ocal Government a wareness Week in the province of british c olumbia.

The purpose of this week is to generate awareness and educate the public on the importance of locally elected officials and the role that they play in making decisions through municipal councils, regional district boards and school boards. it's an opportunity for the public to learn more about how local government works and how they can participate in creating sustainable, family-friendly communities by making their voices heard. in fact, this year's theme is "b e heard," a theme that reinforces the importance of voting, attending pub - lic forums and town hall meetings and learning about candidates' platforms. a s we're all aware, this fall on Saturday, n ovember 19, voters will choose their local representatives for a further three years. c ommunities are celebrating l ocal Government a wareness Week throughout the province, so i en - courage members of the public to call their local government or school district to see what activities are being planned in their area. i read in the news, for ex - ample, that k elowna is offering school tours of city hall, holding a "b e heard" open house and giving the public access to advisory committee meetings. k elowna also has a new website designed to encourage public engage- ment.

The c omox Valley regional district is offering local government 101, a school for people considering running for elected office. i would like to congratulate k elowna, the c omox Valley regional district and other participating com - munities for helping to make government at every level more transparent and accessible. a s you know, this government has made it a prior - ity to support open governance systems that enhance the democratic process.

We're also committed to help - ing local governments create livable, family-friendly and economically resilient communities. f or these and many other reasons, we want to reinforce the im - portance of learning about and getting involved in government processes. Seeing as i have a bit of time left, i am reminded of a story. it was about 25 years ago, i think, that i was sitting at a regional board meeting along with Mayor Mike Dunn, who was then the mayor of the district of k ent, and we were discussing local government aware - ness. h e said: "if you want awareness, double their taxes. They'll be aware."

british c olumbia DebatesMonday, May 16, 2011 7015 eMer GencY S er ViceS a WareneSS S. Fraser: This week is also dedicated to recognizing the women and men that provide emergency services to those of us that need it the most when we need it the most. it is emergency Services Week, and it is appropri - ate that we in this h ouse honour the value of emergency services providers here in british c olumbia. Many professions and many more individuals make up our critical emergency services.

They include our firefighters, paramedics, emergency nurses, technicians and physicians, as well as educators and administrators. a ll play a role that ensures that british c olumbians can receive life-saving care 24 hours a day, seven days a week. [1345] When they jump into action, one thing is for sure: our emergency service personnel dramatically improve the survival and recovery rate of those who have the misfor- tune of experiencing sudden illness and injury.

That can be anyone at any time. emergency service personnel often sacrifice much to do what they do — the time and training that never really ends, long hours and gruelling shifts. a nd some- times they sacrifice everything. on o ctober 19 last year two b.c. paramedics, Jo-a nn f uller and ivan Polivka, both of t ofino, died after their ambulance plunged into the icy waters of k ennedy l ake.

They were friends; they were community members — two ordinary people to us in the community, but two ordinary people with a long record of life-saving ser - vice, and they were doing their job in the wee hours that t uesday morning. While reflecting here on emergency Services Week, i would like to remind this h ouse how valued our emergency services personnel are and that they put themselves at risk in the hopes that we will all have a better chance of surviving our own tragedies. Dalian DeleGation ViSit to burnabY R.

Lee: on Sunday i had the pleasure of meeting with a delegation from Dalian, c hina, which is visiting my city of burnaby to discuss trade and cultural exchan - ges. This eight-member delegation is led by the assistant mayor, Mr. l ui Y an. Dalian is an important city for burnaby and for all of british c olumbia to have a strong relationship with.

Just as we are the a sia-Pacific gateway, so Dalian is the gateway to northeastern c hina. in recent years trade deals between Dalian and b.c. companies have covered areas such as wooden-frame house construction, the manufacturing of wind power generation facilities and garbage recycling. n ow that c hina has become the world's top emitter of greenhouse gases, cities like Dalian are becoming in - creasingly interested in green technologies. a s the home to bcit's burnaby campus and many leading compan - ies in the green technology field, my city is poised to benefit from this. burnaby-based Xantrex is already capitalizing on these opportunities by supplying Shanghai e lectric company with electronic interfaces to convert and con - trol raw electrical power from solar and wind into the high-quality power required for electric grids. o ur efforts to increase trade with c hina are paying off.

We are seeing more and more delegations like this one from Dalian which is visiting burnaby right now at this moment and bringing Dalian companies to invest in sectors such as biotech and biomedical devices. We have much to offer to each other in terms of two- way trade, investment and cultural exchanges. i hope all members will join me in giving a warm welcome to our visitors from Dalian. fe Sti Val S in kootena YS M.

Mungall: Well, it did take a while this year, but spring finally did come, and the k ootenays, of course, know just how to celebrate its long-awaited arrival. a s the rain showered over baker Street in n elson on May 7, locals piled on to the famous downtown street to get their seeds, flowers, herbs, shrubs, trees and garden decor. it was the West k ootenay e coSociety's tenth anniversary of their garden festival, and the rain stopped no one from supporting their neighbourhood businesses. This upcoming weekend brings two more festivals and, of course, a prayer for a little sunshine.

The 70th annual creston blossom f estival starts this upcom - ing f riday. t o celebrate the past 70 years, the blossom festival is hosting a very fun event in honour of a past long-serving festival board member and woman who left a tremendous legacy in the c reston Valley, the late l ela irvine. The event is a pageant tea for women over 70 years of age. Mr.

Speaker, you might notice that i'm not eligible for this pageant, so i will be taking in the baking and the handicrafts and the fashion show that entrants will be proudly showing off. i welcome all to join me after they catch enough candy at the parade earlier in the day. The pageant is at the creston and district rec centre from 2 to 4 p.m. but not to be outdone by its k ootenay neighbour creston, k aslo also boasts a lively May festival this weekend.

So whether you're entering the 5k run, the skate jam or logger sports or all of the above, May Days are sure to entertain and bring community together. [1350] l ike creston's blossom fest, there is a parade. Watch for me and my fiancé on our motorbike as we reach into the saddlebags and toss candy to eager kids and kids at heart.

british c olumbia Debates7016 Monday, May 16, 2011 a s the h ouse knows, n elson-creston is the most beautiful constituency in b.c., so i welcome all to attend our won- derful May festivals. Y ou will no doubt have a ball. Oral Questions Go VernMent taX PolicieS after har Moni Ze D Sale S ta X referen Du M B.

Ralston: There seems to be no end of conflicting in- formation from the b.c. l iberal government, especially when it comes to the hS t . l ast week in the h ouse the Minister of f inance was asked to commit that when the h St referendum is successful, we would return to the PSt with all its previous exemptions. he declined to do that. h owever, on the government's telephone town hall on Thursday night, about 6:45 p.m., r osemary from West Vancouver asked what will happen when the hS t is voted down.

The finance Minister's hS t cam - paign co-chair and the Minister of t ransportation and infrastructure said: "We will go back to the previous PSt exactly as it was before." So there does seem to be another opportunity for the finance Minister to offer an explanation. Will he commit, finally, to restoring the PS t with its previous exemptions when the hS t is voted down? Hon. K.

Falcon: a s i've now said three times in this h ouse, i'm not going to speculate on what outcomes may be on the referendum. but what i can assure british c olumbians is that, as i've said before, three different times, we would make sure we go out and have a con - versation with british c olumbians to deal with whatever those impacts are and ensure that we discuss with british c olumbians what the options are with respect to going back to PSt plus GS t . in fact, if the members go on the hstinbc.ca website, they will see there's already a survey that provides and asks the public for their input with respect to that very issue.

Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. B. Ralston: Well, clearly the Minister of t ranspor- tation and infrastructure was providing a little bit more than a survey. h e offered an answer, and the Minister of f inance doesn't seem to want to comment on that. When british c olumbians signed the initiative pe - tition, they expected a referendum that would result in a clear vote on the hS t . They don't want the gov - ernment to damage the integrity of this process.

The Minister of f inance won't commit to respecting that referendum and, in particular, returning the PS t with its exemptions. a gain, to the finance Minister: Why is he leading his government's abuse of the referendum process? Hon. K. Falcon: n o, what the finance Minister won't do is speculate — i imagine for the same reason that the nDP finance critic is not talking about what they will do if they actually are successful in having their option move forward, which is returning back to a PS t -plus- GSt system, which….

The independent panel report points out that the in - itial hit to provincial revenues in the initial two years alone is almost $3 billion. i imagine that's probably why we're not hearing from the nDP finance critic on how they intend to not only go forward with all the financial spending commitments they are making every single day in this h ouse — i tally it to be about $100 million so far and counting — and how they're going to square that with the fact they're going to have $3 billion less revenue to the provincial government in the initial two years. n o speculation on that side either. i can tell you, as a responsible finance Minister, that we will do whatever the direction the public gives us, and we will do so responsibly.

Mr. Speaker: The member has a further supplemental. B. Ralston: c learly, we on this side of the h ouse will respect the results of the referendum no matter what. The finance Minister doesn't want to answer this question about the r eferendum a ct, so perhaps i'll dir- ect my question to the a ttorney General. i speak to him in his capacity not as a political member of cabinet but in his independent function as the chief law enforce - ment officer of the province. That's a non-political role, a unique role in cabinet. [1355] The hS t referendum is binding. The r eferendum a ct makes that very clear.

The question is clear: a vote to ex- tinguish the hS t and return to the PS t as it was. t o the a ttorney General: in his opinion, does the finance Minister's threat to change the PS t violate the binding aspect of the referendum vote? Hon. K. Falcon: Well, it is fascinating to me that, once again, the member keeps asking a question that he has asked before. i want to be very clear about something. We will fully endorse and respect the decision of british c olumbians with respect to that referendum.

There's no question about that. a s i have said on numerous occasions, we will en - gage in a public discussion with british c olumbians on the fallout of that decision, whichever way that may go, to ensure that any tax changes are going to be built on the foundation of consulting with british c olumbians — just as we are in the midst of consult - ing with british c olumbians. Some 275,000 british c olumbians have responded on how we can improve the hS t .

british c olumbia DebatesMonday, May 16, 2011 7017 announce Ment S bY Pre Mier anD Go VernMent inforMation on harM oniZeD SaleS taX D. Donaldson: Well, the finance Minister likes to talk about consultation. They decided against consulta - tion when every member on that side of the l egislature voted in favour of the hS t a year ago.

This weekend the Premier fired off a promise to change the b.c. l iberals' hS t even before the voters get a chance to vote it down. of course, she forgot to aim first, because that promise means that the $7 million of taxpayers' money spent on an ad campaign launched last week is a complete waste.

The whole purpose of the cam- paign is to draw their attention to a website that claims to explain their hS t , but now the Premier says it's all going to change. t o the finance Minister: to use his own words describ- ing Premier c lark's management style, will he admit that the Premier's ready-fire-aim hS t announcement just pulled the rug out from under the multi-million- dollar ad campaign? Hon. K. Falcon: The member is wrong. The fact of the matter is that what we are doing is making sure that the public have information so that they can make an informed vote.

Y ou know, the members opposite laugh at that pros - pect, but it might be interesting if the members would just look at the website.

We will find that, based on the surveys that have been filled out on the websites, 61 percent of british c olumbians think that basic gro - ceries have gone up under the h St , which is not true; half think that gas prices have gone up due to the hS t when there's been no change; and 48 percent of people think electronics have increased after the hS t , which is not true. it's exactly the same as it was under the PSt and GSt . i wonder why the nDP is so terrified about the pub - lic having basic facts and information so that they can make an informed vote. i do wonder about that. i suggest that they're worried that their misinformation cam - paign that they have been part of for many, many, many months now might just be a tad undermined if british c olumbians are making a decision based on facts.

Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. D. Donaldson: a ll the consumers in the province are wrong; that's what the minister is saying. They're the only ones that are right on the hS t . That is total arro - gance, and they will pay for that arrogance. This government's idea of putting families first is to waste their tax money.

The $7 million ad campaign was designed to direct people to a carefully crafted website attempting to salvage their hS t . but now, just days after the ad campaign was launched, the Premier is saying that their hS t could change, making the info on the site out of date already. a gain to the finance Minister: given that the info on the site may already be out of date and knowing that no one in the province believes this government is neu - tral when it comes to their h St , does he believe this ad campaign was a useful way to spend millions of taxpay - ers' dollars? Hon. K.

Falcon: first of all, to correct the mem - ber — because, again, this is how they like to spread misinformation — it's a $5 million information cam - paign. [1400] i'll tell you something, Mr. Speaker. i am interested… interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. K. Falcon: …in the hysterics that the n DP are displaying over this information campaign. The nDP were in power — in fact, the l eader of the o pposition was chief of staff — at a time when they felt a public policy decision that was important enough, the n isga'a treaty, deserved a multi-million-dollar information campaign. n ow, the difference is this.

The nDP said it was going to be a $2.3 million information campaign. it actually ended up being $7.8 million, and they didn't notify the public until three days before c hristmas. That was their approach. This Minister of f inance said that he would make sure the public was aware of exactly what we were go - ing to spend, that we would do it before the campaign launch. That's exactly what i did. i announced it last week before question period. in fact, i didn't hear a sin - gle question from the n DP opposition last week when i announced that.

Go VernMent taX PolicieS after har Moni Ze D Sale S ta X referen Du M K. Corrigan: on one hand, the finance Minister is threatening that he won't return to the PS t as it was, and on the other hand, the Premier is trying to buy back voters with their own money — $7 million of their own money. What next? Will the Premier try to change the name of the hS t? Voters won't buy this good cop, bad cop routine. t o the finance Minister: will he stop wasting taxpay - ers' money, stop trying to change the conditions of the vote, and let british c olumbians have their day free of manipulation?

british c olumbia Debates7018 Monday, May 16, 2011 Hon. K. Falcon: The vote that british c olumbians will be having is probably the single most important vote british c olumbians will ever have either in the history of this province or perhaps even on a go-forward basis on an issue of very important public policy. f or the life of me, i can't understand why the nDP are so terrified about the public having an informed vote, about know - ing some of the basic elements about that hSt . i mean, we have listened in this h ouse…. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Just take your seat. c ontinue, Minister. Hon. K.

Falcon: We have listened in this h ouse as individuals, including their own finance critic, have demonstrated a complete lack of understanding about basic elements of the h St . We just heard two members now try to misinform the public by saying there's a $7 million information campaign when it's $5 million.

They should know that the other $1.7 million is going to both sides to encourage debate and to ensure the public gets to hear from both sides with respect to this. i make no apologies, as the Minister of finance, in en - suring that the public is having an informed vote on the single most important public policy decision they may ever vote on. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. K. Corrigan: i think the people of this province would like to have had an informed vote on this ques - tion in 2009.

Voters do want to have their say on the question: extinguish the hS t , and return to the PS t with its previous exemptions. Y et this b.c. l iberal gov- ernment is wasting millions of taxpayer dollars and desperately trying to confuse the issue and manipulate an outcome. That's exactly what they did in the last elec- tion when they promised not to implement the hS t in the first place. a gain to the finance Minister: will he stop wasting taxpayer dollars on a futile ad campaign, and will he commit to restoring the PS t with its previous exemp - tions when the hS t is voted down? Hon. K.

Falcon: on one of the telephone town halls we hosted…. of course, there were 275,000 british c olumbians that participated on the almost one dozen telephone town halls. but on one of those telephone town halls we had a senior who does tax preparations for low-income seniors, and he said to me…. Y ou might want to pay attention. Mr. Speaker, the members opposite should pay attention. [1405] This senior, who does volunteer tax preparation for low-income seniors, said to me: "Mr. finance Minister, you have an obligation to make sure that these seniors know. i do their tax preparations.

They do not realize they are getting a rebate from the provincial government. if they knew they were getting that rebate, they would have a very different view on the h St . Y ou have an obligation, Mr. finance Minister, to get that message out." That's exactly what we're going to do. Those members opposite are afraid of people having basic facts. on this side of the h ouse we have an obligation to make sure that the public have an informed vote. That's exactly what they will have. J.

Horgan: it's nice to see my b.c. l iberal friends in their places with bright, shiny faces after their conven - tion in Penticton over the weekend. There you go. There are not as many empty seats today as there were in Penticton, but i digress. The finance Minister last week said that there will be no policy pronouncements before the referendum. n ow, he was doing that to deflect attention away from the fact that he will not commit to restoring the PS t with its previous exemptions. Y et in Penticton l iberals as - sembled, with a smattering of media to cover the event.

The Premier said the following: "i want to make sure the government is committed to a position of improving the hS t prior to the vote being made." t o follow on my colleague from Deer l ake, you can't have it both ways. Y ou can't say no to a direct question on a fact, as in "Will the tax be restored?" and then say: "We're going to jig with it until we get it so we can sell it on our $7 million budget." What's it going to be: yes to the PS t and no to the hS t? That's the question. Hon. K. Falcon: i'm not sure which convention he attended.

The one i attended had over 1,000 delegates in attendance — unlike nDP conventions, where if you subtracted the public sector union delegates, you could hold it in a phone booth. That's the difference. Y ou know, the fact of the matter is the member for Juan de f uca was actually present while we were doing a town hall at the convention on the hS t .

There was not only not a seat to be available, but there were people standing at the back of the hallway, and there were ques- tions coming through l ivestream and t witter. it was a tremendous success. it reinforces the interest that is out there amongst the public in getting basic information, and that's what we'll provide. in terms of what the Premier announced, which is wonderful news, it confirms what we said from the very beginning, which is that we are going to have a listening exercise with british c olumbians — listen to their ideas on how we can improve the hS t — and that we would make sure british c olumbians know

british c olumbia DebatesMonday, May 16, 2011 7019 what we're going to do with respect to it prior to them making that vote. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. J. Horgan: i guess there weren't that many b.c. l iberals in the room because half of them were outside trying to scrub the b.c. l iberal label off of everything they were handing out. a s much as it's enjoyable to watch the f inance Minister say, on the one hand, "l et us do whatever we want," and on the other hand, "i'm not going to an - swer your question," i'd like to go back to the a ttorney General, in his non-partisan role, and ask him if he could give an

interpretation to this h ouse with respect to the r eferendum a ct. The fact we're looking for is that the question says "extinguish the hS t and reinstate the PS t ." it does not say: "Then consult with british c olumbians." it says "re- instate." So will the a ttorney General advise this h ouse: what does that mean? Does it mean reinstate or have another dialogue? Hon. K.

Falcon: Well, i think we're starting to gain some insight on apparently how the nDP would con - duct public policy should they ever, God forbid, find themselves on the government side. [1410] They are going to campaign for a return to a PSt plus GSt which, as the independent panel report points out, will hit the government revenues to the tune of al - most $3 billion in the initial two years. They will do that without explaining in any way, shape or form how they intend to square that with their standing up every day in question period demanding more public spending in every single ministry of government.

That apparently is the nDP approach. on this side of the h ouse we've been very clear. Should the public make that decision, which we will entirely re- spect, we will actually make sure to go and have a public discussion with the public to ensure that we make sure we get tax policy right to deal with the financial impacts, whatever they may be, as a result of that referendum vote — that historic referendum vote. School DiStrict Pa YMent of Pro Pert Y inS urance PreMiu MS R.

Austin: School districts recently received a letter from the capital management branch informing them that school districts are going to have to pick up the tab for property insurance premiums previously covered by the ministry. This is going to take $3 million out of classrooms. My question is to the Minister of e ducation. Wouldn't the $7 million that the government is spending on hS t propaganda be better spent on ensuring districts don't have to make any more cuts to classrooms? Hon. G.

Abbott: i hope the member doesn't mind if i take this question on behalf of the finance Minister. h e wants to advise, first of all, that it's $5 million. That's the first clarification.

This issue involves insurance pooling by the school districts for claims under $100,000. it is a modest depar- ture from the practice of the past. it is something which school board officials, their business and financial of - ficials have been discussing with the ministry for well over a year. it represents very good value for all taxpayers in british c olumbia, and administratively it is a sound way to proceed. it does represent a pressure of 0.051 of 1 per- cent — or, expressed differently, 0.00051 percent — of the overall budget for the Ministry of education. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. R.

Austin: This is a minister who has to negotiate tens of millions of dollars coming back into education, which was stripped unconstitutionally by this govern - ment. That is a huge amount of money. n ot only are the b.c . l iberals sticking it to school districts by making them pay an extra $3 million in insurance premiums, but now they're upping their de - ductible on claims from $3,000 to $10,000. a gain to the Minister of e ducation: does it really make sense to slam school districts with last-minute cuts while you're spending millions of dollars on pro- hS t ads? Hon. G.

Abbott: i certainly hope that the e ducation critic for the nDP makes a similar fuss later in the week when we announce a larger minor adjustment on the positive side to school districts in the province. i do hope that i'll get a question in question period that day on how we are relentlessly forcing more dollars on school districts every year. back in the last year of the nDP's reign it was just over $6,000 per student in fund - ing. n ow we are forcing over $8,330, on average, per student every year in british c olumbia. M.

Elmore: in Vancouver it's a quarter of a million dollars, and every dollar means less for classrooms, less for librarians and less for counsellors in Vancouver. [1415] This is what Patti bacchus, chair of the Vancouver school district, has to say about the b.c. l iberals' last- minute decision to force school districts to pick up the tab for their hS t ad campaign: "a week after we submit - ted a very difficult budget, now we've got to find another $291,000 in this stretched budget that's been scraped away at for too many years."

british c olumbia Debates7020 Monday, May 16, 2011 My question is to the Minister of e ducation. if the b.c. l iberal government can afford to waste $7 million on h St stickman ads, why are you sticking it to school districts? Hon. G. Abbott: i can't believe the remediation i'm expected to undertake on behalf of the finance Minister in this h ouse.

This is deplorable that i now have to cor - rect it again to $5 million. but so the member knows…. a nd i hope again that this member will join with the e ducation critic later in the week in deploring the over $800,000 that will be go - ing to the Vancouver school board later in the week. i know i heard today from c hair bacchus of the Vancouver school board and three of the nDP coalition that are on the school board, and i appreciated hearing that. i'm sure i'll look forward to hearing from them thanking the government very much later in the week for the additional contribution. Mr.

Speaker: The member has a supplemental. M. Elmore: Well, cute doesn't cut it with kids, and the b.c. l iberals are sticking it to kids in Vancouver classrooms. Michael Mce voy, president of the b.c. School t rustees a ssociation, noted that most school districts already submitted their budgets to the govern - ment. it's irresponsible for the b.c . l iberals to force districts to cut another $3 million from classrooms at the last minute. a gain to the Minister of e ducation: do you think it's appropriate to ask school districts to make yet more cuts to classrooms after they've already prepared their budgets? Hon.

G.

Abbott: i saw the press release from c hair bacchus and, as usual, the alarming conclusions that she would make to any change in a budget. but i do hope i can say this with confidence. if a change of $3 million is alarming, think of the ecstasy that will be produced by $7 million or $8 million later in the week. i do hope that the e ducation critic and other mem - bers of the nDP h ouse here will be able to get through the balance of this week reflecting on a 0.051 of 1 per - cent change in a budget today and an even larger change on the positive side later this week. enVironMental a SSeSSMent ProceSS for Pro Po Se D Vancou Ver iSlan D coal Mine S.

Fraser: i have another prime example of a b.c. l iberal minister saying one thing and then doing an - other. Despite the Minister of a griculture's claim last week in question period that "the highest environ - mental standards" will be applied — that's the quote — to a potential coal mine that threatens the very best shellfish farms in the whole province, the minister was wrong. The truth is that the environmental review policy, the plan, is second-string at best. That's not good enough.

Will the Minister of a griculture speak up for his port- folio, speak up for his constituents in the c omox Valley and central island and protect the shellfish industry in his riding? Hon. T. Lake: i presume the member opposite is speaking about the r aven coal project that is in the very early stages of the environmental assessment, in the pre- consultation phase. [1420] in fact, the environmental assessment office has gone out and met with all the stakeholders.

They are making sure that they design the public consultation piece to make sure they accommodate all of those that have an active concern in this project. it's a well-recognized system. i think we should let the system work through the process, and we'll stand behind that process because it is taking into account all of the concerns of the people in that area. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. S. Fraser: i didn't direct to the Minister of environ - ment, because the minister responsible for shellfish marketing is sitting over there, and he's ducking this issue again.

The Minister of environment finds himself on the wrong side of the facts too. e very local government, every local organization has demanded the most rigor - ous environmental review process, independent with a public hearing, and that's being denied, for the minis - ter's information. This industry represents the livelihoods — that is, the shellfish industry — of hundreds of families in the c omox Valley. The leaching of heavy metals into baynes Sound would destroy the shellfish industry. it would ruin…. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. S.

Fraser: a ny heavy metals leached into baynes Sound would shut down the export market of that pro - duct. it would ruin the industry. Mr. Speaker: Question, Member. S. Fraser: Will the minister stand up, the Minister of a griculture responsible, for island families and protect the shellfish aquaculture sector?

british c olumbia DebatesMonday, May 16, 2011 7021 Hon. T. Lake: The member should get his facts straight. h e should be well aware that on March 12 and 13 the environmental assessment office, along with the c anadian environmental a ssessment a gency, fa - cilitated two day-long focus workshops with public interest groups. These public interest groups included c oalWatch c omox Valley, c omox Valley

chapter of the c oun- cil of c anadians, c omox Valley conservation strategy, c omox Valley n aturalists Society, c omox Valley Project Watershed Society, e aglecrest r esidents a ssociation, o cean c anal c lubhouse, Parksville-Qualicum kairo S, Ships Point improvement district and the board of the trustees, the Sierra c lub c omox Valley, Wilderness c ommittee Mid-i sland chapter, f anny bay Salmonid enhancement Society. a ll groups that have an interest are being consulted. [end of question period.] Orders of the Day Hon. R.

Coleman: in this h ouse this afternoon we will do committee stage, to begin with, of bill 6, intituled the civil f orfeiture a mendment a ct, 2011.

Should we have time, it will be followed by second reading of bill 7, intituled the Miscellaneous Statutes a mendment a ct, 2011, followed by the second reading of bill 10, intituled Wills, e states and Succession a mendment a ct, 2011. in c ommittee a we will be doing the estimates of the Ministry of f orests, l ands and n atural r esource o perations. [1425] Committee of the Whole House bill 6 — ciVil forfeiture aMenDMent act , 2011 The h ouse in c ommittee of the Whole (Section

b) on bill 6; l. r eid in the chair. The committee met at 2:30 p.m. on

section 1. K. Corrigan: i have some questions. i wanted to clarify what the workings of this first

section of the act are. it essentially seemed not only to incorporate the provisions of

section 7 of the civil f orfeiture a ct, hav- ing them apply to the new administrative process, but also to remove cash from…. it changes the way that cash is dealt with in a civil forfeiture. i'm wondering if i could get an explanation of what the impact is, particularly on cash and the timing. Hon. S. Bond: in fact, this does clarify this process for regular civil forfeiture and also the new administra - tive forfeiture process. it is very unusual to register cash under the personal property registry. it is something that is not common practice, so we're correcting that.

Property means just that. it would be the registration of property and not cash. N. Simons: Thank you to the hon. minister for her presence, as well as the presence of her people who help her with the answers. i'm wondering if the minister would be able to outline, on

section 1, what the general purpose of the

section is in relation to the previous act, just on a general basis. Hon. S. Bond: The general purpose here is to clarify the certainty around the effective date of forfeiture. it is essential. When you apply for forfeiture, the court re - quires there to be certainty as to the effective date, so we're clarifying that. The second piece i've already clarified: we are cor - recting, in essence, what is an unusual practice of registering cash. The personal property registry is about things and not, typically, cash. N.

Simons: c an the minister explain what the prob - lems were that are experienced by the director under the regime as it exists currently? Hon. S. Bond: i should take this opportunity to introduce the staff that are with me. They are part of an exceptional team that has created a very successful forfeit- ure program in british c olumbia. We have r ob k roeker with us, who is the executive director of the civil forfeiture office, and Jerad l arson, who is the program manager. it's been an exceptionally successful process. i think the member opposite is asking us why we are bringing in administrative forfeiture.

Generally speak - ing, the reason is that we have seen circumstances where items that have a smaller value have often been far too expensive, through the court process, for us to pursue. [1435] This would allow us to use an administrative process, and if there is something that has a value below $75,000, we would be able — obviously, after referral by the police in british c olumbia — to contemplate an administrative forfeiture, thus not utilizing an expensive court process.

What it says is that we want to make sure that if you are benefiting from crime in british c olumbia, no matter how small the amount, we're going to make sure that it's not worth your while. N. Simons: Does the minister contemplate how low the amount is that the ministry expects to go to in re - covery of property?

british c olumbia Debates7022 Monday, May 16, 2011 Hon. S. Bond: Well, the upper threshold of this ad - ministrative forfeiture would be $75,000, but really, the amounts are much smaller than that. it costs around $5,000 or so to initiate a court proceeding. We're typ - ically talking about amounts that may be less than $5,000, sometimes several thousand dollars, often re - lated to the drug trade, in particular — small-time criminals who are selling drugs — and often related to cash, in particular. K. Corrigan: i was starting to ask a question about the operation of

section 1(a), and i had to leave the chamber for a minute. i'm wondering if i could go back to that. The dealing of cash. i'm wondering what the change that has happened in this

section means in terms of when the order is effective with regard to cash. What does that mean in a practical sense? Hon. S. Bond: What it means is exactly as i've articu- lated it. t ypically, one doesn't register cash as part of the personal property registry. This actually creates cer - tainty for both the administrative and the court process related to forfeiture. We will no longer register cash on the registry, but there will still be a requirement through administrative forfeiture to advertise for 60 days for belongings and property, for example. This is not common practice and probably was an oversight.

We are correcting that. K. Corrigan: i'm wondering, though: does it then change…? My reading of it was that it would change when the order was effective with regard to cash and that it would make that order effective at an earlier date. Hon. S.

Bond: There's a very minute difference be - tween when it's registered and when the proceeding actually is initiated. it can often take place on the same day. r eally, the issue is that registering cash on a per - sonal property registry is costly. it is burdensome. it is not a typical practice. it is correct that the date would now be effective at the beginning of the proceeding, but rarely is there a lengthy difference between registering and the beginning of the proceeding. K. Corrigan: h as the ministry…? a ctually, first, how much cash has been affected to date? [1440] Hon. S.

Bond: a s of a couple of months ago — we can look up the exact date — the civil forfeiture office has seen forfeiture of about $17 million, and about $3 mil - lion of that was cash. K. Corrigan: Well, it seems like it is a fairly significant amount of money. The thing that i'm wondering about is whether or not, if the date does change and it could be earlier, there has been any evaluation of how much difference that makes in terms of interest or that office having the money. is there any impact there, and was this the motivation at all for changing the section? Hon. S.

Bond: a gain, a very minute difference. in fact, the only difference would be if there was a day's delay between registering it or the proceeding starting. a t the end of the day, the process that is undertaken doesn't change. People have the opportunity, and in the case of administrative forfeiture, which we're contemplat - ing here, people still have the same period of time from whichever way the clock starts ticking. So it won't make a significant difference from that perspective. The member is absolutely right — $3 million is a lot of money that could be put to use by criminals in british c olumbia.

We've said, "Y ou're not going to do that; you're not going to benefit," and in fact, that's been one of the significant successes of the civil forfeiture process. K. Corrigan: i'm asking the questions because i want to see if there is a significant amount of money that is interest that the government would accrue because of the change of date. it would be just as possible to have the effective date be the date that there was notice given, could it not be? i'm just wondering why it was decided to do that this way. Hon. S.

Bond: i think the general principle here is that the change of date does not change the practice in terms of the process of civil forfeiture. in essence, what it does is potentially eliminate what is typically even the same-day registration of that cash. a t the end of the day, there is no significant additional benefit to government, and, in fact, government doesn't benefit from forfeiture anyway. Who benefits is….

The civil forfeiture office pays for itself, and any other money that is accrued is used for victims of crime and is basic - ally put back into community in a positive way instead of a negative one. [1445] K. Corrigan: What is the average or norm in terms of how long the time period is from when a proceeding is commenced to when notice is given? Hon. S.

Bond: There isn't an average. in fact, every case is different. but the principle is that the moment the process and the procedure begin, we begin to look for that person. if we have a known address, we start there, and that may take a couple of days to track them down. if we don't know where they are, we have to find addresses. but there is not an average. e very case is dif - ferent. a s soon as we begin the forfeiture process, we begin to look for the people.

british c olumbia DebatesMonday, May 16, 2011 7023 K. Corrigan: i'm wondering if we know how much interest has been raised to date on money that has been held in forfeiture. Hon. S. Bond: We're debating whether or not interest meant people actually come and try to get their money back or whether there's an interest rate and it's accruing. in both cases, it's rare. interest doesn't accrue because, technically, the money is in a lockup somewhere while we're attempting to find the owners of it to see if they're interested in pursuing that. i'm told that any accrual of any interest is rare and minimal. K.

Corrigan: This is a process that i am not, i was go- ing to say, entirely familiar with. in fact, i think i would go a little farther and say that i'm learning a lot. So then, what the minister is saying is that the money does not get deposited in a financial institution? Hon. S. Bond: in most cases, that is correct. it is be - ing held securely. There are occasions — and it is rare — where it may be paid into the court, and it may accrue some interest there. but generally speaking, someone is holding on to that asset securely as we try to track down anyone who may be attached to it. K.

Corrigan: i think, actually, i don't have any more questions on that section.

Section 1 approved. on

section 2. K. Corrigan: This is the substantive part of this bill. i do have a large number of questions with regard to

part 3.1, which is called the "a dministrative f orfeiture of Subject Property." Starting with the

definitions, i am trying to under - stand the impact and the relationship between the two terms "known interest holder," which is somebody, i presume, that notice needs to be given to…. The differ - ence between that and a "protected interest holder" and how the two of them relate — i wonder if i could get some explanation on that. [1450] Hon. S. Bond: Well, there is some crossover between the two, but a known interest holder is an individual who we believe actually has an interest.

They are individuals to whom notice must be sent. a protected interest holder is generally an institutional lender that has a valid secur- ity agreement. They would also, obviously, be a known interest holder. K. Corrigan: i'm wondering if i could get, perhaps, a bit of a list of the types of protected interest holder. i would assume that that would also include, for example, somebody who has registered ownership of a vehicle. What other types of things would be included in who is considered to be a protected interest holder? Hon. S.

Bond: a s i mentioned, it is generally insti - tutional lenders, so it would be banks, credit unions, potentially lease companies. it could also be a registered vehicle owner. K. Corrigan: i'm also wondering if things…. i know that when we met with the director, one of the common types of property that end up being forfeited when there is criminal activity is things like jewels and jewelry and so on. n ow, is there any way the jewelry could be a regis- tered piece of property? Would that in any way, or ever, be included in that? Hon. S.

Bond: Definitely. if there is a serial number, for example, or if it can be adequately described, then certainly it would be constituted as such. K. Corrigan: i'm trying to fit together the pieces of this bill, which is difficult to do, because you're super - imposing an amendment act on top of the original bill. i've got to say that it is difficult going back and trying to see how the different pieces fit together. in one

section often you have to refer to sometimes five or six sections in two different acts in order to under- stand what the workings of this bill are. it certainly has been a bit of a struggle trying to understand exactly how it all works together. When somebody is a protected interest holder, that property, then, is protected from the operations of ad - ministrative forfeiture. is that correct? [1455] Hon. S. Bond: Y es, they are protected, unless, of course, they were involved in any unlawful activity re - lated to that property. N. Simons: We have in front of us

an act that has maybe a six-line explanatory note for

section

Section 2 covers a new

section called

section 14, which covers a significant number of aspects of this bill. i'm think - ing that that might be why there might be confusion. u sually there are explanatory notes when there are substantive changes, and there seem to be substan - tive changes, considering there are about eight or nine pages of this bill. My question is…. e ssentially what the director is seeking through this legislation is the ability to cir - cumvent normal court processes, including service requirements and the commencement of a court hear - ing. is that what known interest holders need to be aware of?

british c olumbia Debates7024 Monday, May 16, 2011 Hon. S. Bond: i think that there is one substantive change. While there are many parts of the act that need to be amended, there is one substantive change. That change would be this: we will take the opportunity with small amounts — items that have lower value, below $75,000 — to engage in a process where we would make every effort for a 60-day period for people to claim their interest. The moment they stand up and say, "We dis - pute your claim to forfeiture," this process immediately reverts to a court-led process.

The fact of the matter is that there are many crimin - als in british c olumbia benefiting from the proceeds of crime. This is one way to ensure that while they have their rights protected to step up and say, "We dispute your claim," in the event that they don't, there will be administrative forfeiture. So there still is every opportunity for this case. Should there be a determination that it is worth the public inter- est to proceed, it would go through the court process, as forfeiture does today. N.

Simons: Does the minister recognize that by lowering the threshold, this will likely result in people with less money being pulled into the court process? Does the minister have any concerns that, in fact, legal aid will not cover someone's court costs should they be subject to this act? Hon. S.

Bond: The process won't change. t oday there is a process in which if something is deemed in the pub- lic interest, there may well be pursuit of a forfeiture. in fact a judge very recently, i believe it was here in Victoria, decided that two individuals who continued to deal with issues like impaired driving and simply did not correct their behaviour…. Their vehicles were actually part of a process, and they were worth very, very little. That pro - cess was determined to be in the public interest.

There is no guarantee that once a person stands up and says, "i dispute your claim," that it will take a court process for them to get back what may be a very low-value item. That simply may just take place. it would be very much a decision about whether it is worth pursuing it through the courts, but that option is certainly available. N.

Simons: Who would be determining what is in the public interest? is that an answerable body to the public? is it a body with public oversight? is there any ability to determine whether the public interest is actually the in - terest of a separate agency? h ow is that determined? [1500] Hon. S. Bond: The director is given the discretion as to whether or not to proceed with an action. i can say today that the process has been so successful…. We have been successful with every case that has proceeded with the forfeiture process today. N.

Simons: a s the minister knows, the success of a process does not speak to whether or not it is a fair process. That, i think, is what is at issue here, and the responsibility of h er Majesty's official o pposition is to ensure that legislation passed by this h ouse actually meets the test of: is it in the public interest?

That's why i asked the question about who is responsible for mak - ing decisions. in most cases when you have a judge making that decision, it's a judge who is appointed under certain statutory authority and a judge that is chosen for that particular purpose. i have absolutely no reason to ques - tion any motivation of any party. h owever, as i've said in previous discussions about this type of legislation, a less benevolent government could, in certain circumstances, use legislation as a tool as opposed to as a form of the protection of the pub - lic. a nd i'm concerned about known interest holders and protected interest holders. i'm concerned about the rights of criminals, because we protect the rights of criminals because we are concerned about the rule of law and equality under the law. c an i just maybe suggest a potential circumstance where perhaps this law needs another look?

That is, if somebody has…. l et's say, for example, someone's brother has an alcohol and drug problem, and they come to your house and you give them a couple of nights' sleep before they take off on the next part of their adventure. They leave for a couple of months, and you don't see them for a while. i know many families have been touched by people's addiction problems. So they disappear for a couple of months to northern b.c. l ittle known to you, they've taken the jewelry from your great-grandmother out of your desk, and you haven't realized that. They go away.

They spend two months on their — what do you call it? — tear, during the course of which they're arrested and their property is seized. if that property is not theirs and you happen to be a sibling of theirs, what rights do you have as a sibling to recover, whether it's jewelry or family heirlooms, what that particular person might have absconded with? Where are your rights protected in this process? Hon. S. Bond: a ctually, we do care about people's rights, and that's been clear with the process that cur - rently has court oversight. We've had over 600 cases referred.

They are referred by the police in our province. We've had 250 of those cases which were concluded, and in fact they were all successful when that decision was made. in the case that the member describes there would not have been proceeds of crime involved there, so this process would not apply.

british c olumbia DebatesMonday, May 16, 2011 7025 N.

Simons: The integrity of legislation is measured not by how it's intended but by how it could be used. a nd i think that's really what we're trying to get at here, that the potential misapplication of law is where the rights of individuals are threatened. i believe there are some examples in here that leave, at least, ques - tions at this point as to whether or not the rights that we and — the minister will acknowledge — our fore - fathers and mothers have fought so hard to protect…. o ne is the right to personal privacy and the protection of property. in this particular case i don't think that you could make an argument that the rings or the jewelry that your brother absconded with to the north for three months would not be subject to seizure, because how will the law enforcement authorities know where that material comes from if, in fact, the person who's been accused is not forthcoming with those details? a nd will that money ever be able to be returned, or will it be liquidated and left solely as financial property, should someone decide to pursue a civil course of action later? [1505] Hon.

S. Bond: a gain, the circumstances the mem - ber is describing would be considered theft. The rcMP would deal with that case, and it would not engage the civil forfeiture office. N. Simons: i'm sorry if i've confused parties here. h owever, i'm talking about someone absconding with property that happens to have been in your dresser drawer, perhaps, and you have no awareness of it being missing. Months go by, and your sibling is, as i men - tioned, perhaps…. My siblings — i have five of them, and they shouldn't assume i'm talking about them.

They're up in the north, and they're stealing prop - erty and stealing jewelry and electronics, and the police come upon them and find all this jewelry and electronic material. h ow is the police officer, the referring agency, going to know that, in fact, this is the perpetrator's great- grandmother's stuff that he stole from his sister's house? or brother's, in the case if it being me. That's the ques - tion i have. Hon. S.

Bond: Well, provided there was a police re - port filed that it was stolen, it would be entered in the PriMe database. one of the first things the rcMP would do before it ever got anywhere near the civil for - feiture office…. My staff have just described an event for me very similar to that. a person appeared with a bag full of jewelry. The rcMP meticulously went through that, matched it up to descriptions on P riMe of places where jewelry had been stolen and returned the prop - erty to those individuals.

Y ou know, our first attempt is to return the property. a s long as there's a police report, the police would do the work that they're expected to do. a t the end of those processes, if there would be reason to refer it, the police would make that determination. N. Simons: The particular situation i'm trying to de - scribe does not involve a police report of the original theft of that jewelry. n obody knows it's been stolen ex - cept the person who stole it.

That person gets arrested 500 kilometres from the home where they stole it from. h is little brother doesn't realize it's missing from the drawer. immediately civil forfeiture, without having any ability to get that back…. i'm saying that no, there's no report about it. it's seized by the police, the civil f orfeiture a ct takes it away and liquidates it, and it becomes money. immediately you have family property that is no longer recoverable. is that the case? Hon. S.

Bond: The bottom line is that there will be every effort made to, first of all, publicly make people aware that the property has been basically received by the rcMP . There will be and are newspaper ads that talk about property that may potentially be considered for forfeiture. it is posted on the b.c. bid website; i want to be clear that i get the right name.

Then if the sibling is suddenly involved with a for - feiture case, i'm assuming the family may want to make some connection. but at the end of the day, generally, describing the system that the member opposite has brought to the floor, it would not engage the civil forfeit- ure office. it would engage the police in british c olumbia who will do their very best to try to find the people who belong to that property. [1510] N.

Simons: The police arrest someone in downtown Dawson c reek in possession of three camcorders — if they still exist — five iPhones, three iPads, a blackberry tablet of some form and six rings. The police will arrest the person. They may have ample evidence to tie that perpe- trator to most of the goods in his or her possession.

The process could, from that point, involve the dir - ector of civil forfeiture, the liquidation of those assets and the loss of those goods from family or friends, who i imagine do not on a regular basis go to b.c. bid to see if their stolen property is there for sale because one would expect that the government would retain goods that have been taken or forfeited from crim - inals in order to ensure that the rights of the proper owner are protected. Where is the protection for the proper owner of goods who doesn't know that his goods have been stolen? Hon. S.

Bond: The bottom line is that if you don't know if something is missing or stolen, it's very difficult for the police to help you. it certainly isn't going to end

british c olumbia Debates7026 Monday, May 16, 2011 up on the desk of the civil forfeiture office. The bottom line is that if there are stolen goods, the police in british c olumbia first would check for police reports. That's why we have the PriMe database.

So if you call in and say, "My grandma's jewellery is missing," and then your grandma's jewellery shows up, the beauty of that is the police can match it up and you can get it back. in many cases property that is not re - turned, if it is not tied to criminal behaviour such as drug dealers or gangs in organized crime in british c olumbia, it doesn't end up on our desk. it could actually end up in a police auction. They auction bicycles all the time and a number of other things. The key to civil forfeiture and administrative forfeit - ure is that it is related to an unlawful act.

The biggest group of offenders that we have are typically drug deal - ers. We catch them with drugs, and we catch them with cash. What we're saying is: "Y ou're not going to get that cash back to behave badly in british c olumbia." it's been an extraordinary success. in fact, models across the country are now designed similarly to british c olumbia's. a ll we're asking for in

section 2 is the ability to cre - ate administrative forfeiture, which allows us to look at smaller amounts of money after due process. in other words, we still go look for the person who is known to have an interest in that property. The moment they step up, they get the opportunity to go through the court process. N. Simons: i understood the minister to say earlier that this would avoid the court process. This is an ad - ministrative tool designed either to avoid court or to avoid the service requirements of court. is it one or the other? Would the minister be able to clarify? Hon. S.

Bond: The discussion has been about the protection of rights. So my point is this. if a person has an interest in something that we are contemplat - ing for administrative forfeiture, if they step up and say, "We dispute your claim," we then have the opportunity to consider whether it goes through the court process. it may not at that point because the value is so low that if they claim ownership and dispute administra - tive forfeiture, there may or may not be a court process depending on…. but the point is that that option is still available to them.

They still get to step up and say: "That's my property." That's the protection of individ - ual rights. in fact, we have a 60-day period, and there's an addi - tional ten days after that. So they have 70 days to actually step up and say: "That's mine." i think that is what is considered a reasonable test. N. Simons: Thank you for that clarification from the minister. i would just suggest that if they know their property has been stolen, they have recourse, and that's fair. [1515] The question that wasn't answered earlier was the person who's arrested and not even charged.

This is the situation, for those that understand. a person can have property removed from them without being convicted of a criminal offence. The balance of prob - abilities is the test on whether or not to approve this forfeiture. in criminal cases you need a significantly higher threshold of proof, and it's the erosion of this threshold that i think the public needs to be con - cerned about. a s we all know, civil liberties don't disappear over - night.

They are gradually eroded. i do consider that the elimination of due process in the removal of personal property is a problem. it's not that i want to take the side of the criminals. i think that we need to reflect on the fact that there have been people who have been improperly accused.

There are people who have been unfairly accused. it is those people who, at the same time as this minister talks about criminals, are going to be subject to having their property taken away from them. i think that is some - thing that…. a s much as the rule of law may be applied in good ways, we have to remember, that the blade of the sword is sharp on both sides. if we don't apply it properly, there is collateral damage that is obviously going to ensue. i think that the lack of recognition of this fact in the an - swers to my questions seems to belie what may be a simple notion of what a bad guy is. i think we need to recognize that by lowering the threshold, we're also talk- ing about petty criminals.

The issue that i think we need to perhaps explore more is: is this a tool designed for gangs, or is it a tool designed for petty criminals? is it going to be a tool now, because of the threshold reduction, that's going to be ap- plied to people who are living in poverty? a s we know, there's a high incidence of criminal of - fences among people of certain socioeconomic groups. i'm talking about petty crime. i'm talking about people who are living hand to mouth.

That, unfortunately, would be people considered by the minister as drug dealers. i think we need to make sure that we understand that the target of this legislation may, in fact, be those rich criminals who drive h ummers, but we have a situation where it may now apply to people who can - not even afford legal aid to protect their rights. is that the case? Hon. S. Bond: There is a goal in forfeiture that is looking at criminal behaviour in british c olumbia. We're talking about telemarketers that scam people in our province. We are talking about organized crime.

british c olumbia DebatesMonday, May 16, 2011 7027 We are talking about gangs in this province. We are looking at a reasonable approach to protecting people's rights. i should correct the record: it is 67 days, not 70. i was enthusiastic in my ten days' additional. it is actually 60 plus seven. There are 67 days for a person who is in - volved with this piece of property to actually step up and say: "That's mine." We believe that's a reasonable test. in addition to that, we must prove that the person using the property is benefiting from the proceeds of crime.

Secondly, the test for facilitation in the use of a crime also means they have to benefit from that use. There is a very significant test before any sort of forfeit- ure is considered. in this case this is about administrative forfeiture for lesser amounts of money — typically related to drug dealers who are selling drugs in our commun - ities, often having small amounts of cash. We're going to give them the opportunity to prove…. They get to step up and actually have a known inter - est. but if they don't, we're going to make sure they don't benefit from the proceeds of crime in british c olumbia.

We're going to protect rights, but we're also going to pro- tect british c olumbians. [1520] C. Trevena: i wondered if the minister could just let this side of the h ouse know which other jurisdictions go to this level for civil forfeiture, down to $75,000 and below. What other jurisdictions have a similar level of civil forfeiture? Hon. S.

Bond: We are the first to look at administra - tive forfeiture. h owever, just last week we announced that seven provinces, seven jurisdictions, are actually working together on the concept of civil forfeitures so that we can work cross-border, and we're pleased to see that kind collaboration taking place. but the threshold is the same in every jurisdiction. The threshold actually starts at a dollar.

The difference here is that we are looking at administrative forfeiture, which al- lows us to deal more cost-effectively and efficiently with smaller amounts of money, which today are not being processed because it is a costly court process. C. Trevena: if we are the first jurisdiction to look at using this administrative process, what sorts of guide - lines and protections are being established under this? What sort of oversight is there going to be to make sure it is fair? Hon. S.

Bond: The process we're putting in place in - cludes the individual. if they are a known interest, they would be served notice personally that administrative forfeiture is being considered. it will be advertised pub - licly. There is a 60-day period, plus an additional seven days, and at any point during that process if they step up and say, "That belongs to me," the process that is in place today — which involves the courts, potentially — kicks in. C.

Trevena: i understand that from the minister's response to previous questions, but what i wanted was the oversight of the system itself, not just the onus on the individual to come forward, which i think is what the minister is saying — that it's up to the individual to come forward and say either "Y es, this is mine" or "This isn't mine." Hon. S. Bond: a ny decision made by the director is subject to judicial oversight, and those decisions could be challenged. N.

Simons: Just to clarify, once someone steps for - ward and says, "This property should not be seized," is the onus then on that person to prove that they have not committed a criminal offence? Hon. S. Bond: The case would go back through the regular process, and it's up to the director to prove that it was a proceed or a part of the committal of a crime. K. Corrigan: i'm going to go back to the

definitions in

section 14.01. Public body is described as meaning any of the following: "(

a) an entity with which the direc- tor has an information-sharing agreement under

section 22 (4)." That's subsection (a). [1525] i'm wondering if the minister could please describe what kinds of bodies are included in both subsection (

a) and subsection (b). Hon. S. Bond: Police agencies, the b.c. Securities c ommission, gaming enforcement, the Ministry of environment — i think those are pretty indicative of what the definition describes. The Chair: Members, given that

section 2 extends for some seven pages, i would propose we vote on them by subsection.

Section 2,

section 14.01 approved. on

section 2,

section 14.02. K. Corrigan: With regard to

section 14.02(1). it says: "This Part applies if (

a) the director has reason to believe that (

i) the whole or a portion of an interest in prop - erty, other than real property, is proceeds of unlawful activity…." What are the tests, and under what circum - stances would the director come to believe that they are proceeds? i'm just wondering what the test is and what the process is there, in making that determination.

british c olumbia Debates7028 Monday, May 16, 2011 Hon. S. Bond: Police agencies would refer a case to the civil forfeiture office. o bviously there would need to be direct evidence provided by the police agency as they refer that case to the civil forfeiture office. K. Corrigan: So would the director rely, then, on the information that was provided by the police — rely on that? or would the director be required to add some more thought or ask some questions? i'm trying to get a sense of what the process is and the safeguards, con - sidering the questions my colleague has been asking in the previous…. Hon. S.

Bond: The police provide the referral with all of the information attached to it. Very often there are lots of documents, including things like banking docu - ments. The director's job is to review that before a final decision to proceed is made. So yes, the director has a responsibility to use due diligence and does review the information that's provided by a policing agency. K. Corrigan: but just to be clear, when we say that they are proceeds of unlawful activity, this doesn't re - quire that somebody has been convicted of or even charged with a criminal offence. Hon. S.

Bond: That's correct because this is a civil for- feiture process which has been in place in our province. but this is a civil forfeiture process. We still have to look at the balance of probabilities and be able to prove that there has been a connection with the proceeds of crime. [1530] K. Corrigan: it could also be property that was seized where the unlawful activity would not, if proven, be a criminal offence. c ould it be other types of offences? Does it have to be a criminal offence? Hon. S.

Bond: Well, it can be a criminal offence, but it also could be a provincial offence. a really good example of that is securities regulations. it cannot be a bylaw, but it can be a provincial and certainly a criminal matter. K. Corrigan: c ould it be an offence under the Motor Vehicle a ct? Hon. S. Bond: Y es, it can. it could be reckless driving, for example, or street racing. K. Corrigan: n ot speeding tickets, i take it? Hon. S. Bond: n o. K.

Corrigan: So it's either a property which is proceeds of unlawful activity or is the instrument of unlawful activity. i'm wondering if the minister could let us know what types of property have typically been forfeited in the past and what the breakdown is of types of property. Hon. S. Bond: We don't have a breakdown, obviously, of all of the items. Y ou can imagine they would be fairly varied, but the typical and most frequent are vehicles, interest in houses and cash. N.

Simons: e arlier the question was asked as to whether or not the Motor Vehicle a ct would be one of the pieces of legislation which could be the umbrella for what would be considered unlawful activity. is there a

schedule of acts or pieces of legislation under which civil forfeiture could apply? Hon. S. Bond: n o. N. Simons: Why not? Hon. S. Bond: The definition is that it's either used in a criminal activity or the proceeds of crime. K. Corrigan: i just wanted to clarify. My under - standing was that the minister just said that it was the proceeds of criminal activity. My understanding is that it is the proceeds of unlawful activity. Hon. S. Bond: That's correct. [1535] K. Corrigan: Thank you, because i think that's why this line of questioning is being pursued.

The member for Powell r iver–Sunshine c oast is trying to get an under - standing of what types of legislation and what types of offences would be covered by this particular provision of civil forfeiture. c ould the minister give us an idea of the various offences against which would qualify? Hon. S. Bond: We've done that. in fact, it could be federal — which is criminal law, criminal activities. it could be provincial — for example, the Motor Vehicle a ct or securities regulations. N. Simons: Would they be considered under the Wildlife a ct or federal acts such as that? Hon. S.

Bond: Y es, it could well be the Wildlife a ct. a gain, if it's an unlawful activity that leads to profit…. We've never had one under the Wildlife act. N. Simons: So to clarify, it must lead to profit, be the result of profit or result in profit. Hon. S. Bond: There are two criteria. one is the profit from crime or property used for the offence.

british c olumbia DebatesMonday, May 16, 2011 7029 N. Simons: t o get to

section 14.02(1)(d), the applica- tion of this act: "This Part applies if…(

d) the director has no reason to believe that there are any protected interest holders in relation to that property." r eferring back to my questions on definition, that is exactly the situation that i would contemplate as poten- tially problematic, in that the director has no reason to believe that there are any protected interest holders in relation to that property. What does the director do to ensure that that is in fact the case, besides publication, notification about the act? Hon. S. Bond: We've walked through this with the member. The rc MP would begin by trying to match the property.

The director would make every reasonable effort to publish, to seek out and to make the informa - tion public. We have a number of processes. a t the end of the day, the director actually, with the organization, works very hard to determine whether there is an interest holder. but at the end of the day, there may well be circumstances that if a person doesn't report something missing, and we have made every best effort to try to seek out some - one of known interest…. There is a due process in order to try to do that very thing that the member asks. N.

Simons: h ow many staff are available to do that due diligence? [1540] Hon. S. Bond: There would be a case lead in the civil forfeiture office, backed up by a number of support staff and a legal team that would assist them. K. Corrigan: i wanted to ask…. i recall that the min - ister said that this is a civil proceeding.

Therefore, it would apply in a case where there weren't criminal pro - ceedings — that the charges had been dropped or they couldn't make the charges or felt that they wouldn't be able to get a conviction or perhaps felt this was a more convenient way to go. is it possible that the c ivil f orfeiture a ct and the amendment act creating administrative forfeiture could apply and be used even when there is a criminal conviction? Hon. S. Bond: Y es. K. Corrigan: h as that happened in the past? Hon. S. Bond: Y es, a very public one. it related to drug trafficking and a h ummer. K.

Corrigan: i think one of the concerns that i have had about this act and, certainly, this provision is the possibility that police departments working with the director would come to an understanding, perhaps, that it might be difficult to prosecute somebody criminally and that they would be tempted to start using this act as a different way to, in a way, get around the requirements of the criminal c ode, which requires that you have to prove an offence beyond a reasonable doubt, as opposed to the burden of proof under the civil f orfeiture a ct and the civil f orfeiture a mendment a ct, where it is on the balance of probabilities. i'm just concerned about what protections there are in place in order to avoid that kind of discussion happening.

Hon. S. Bond: i appreciate the question, and i know that the member opposite is attempting not to imply anything. This is about making sure that there is an ap - propriate process in british c olumbia for looking at the proceeds of crime. of course, the police and the civil forfeiture office are doing their jobs appropriately.

There are policies in place which require them to meet all stan- dards related to charge approval. f or example, a case may end up at the civil forfeiture office if the police cannot meet those charge approval standards or if the crown says no. but there are policies in place which preclude the kind of behaviour that the member opposite is suggesting. i know it's even hard for the director to hear that kind of suggestion. [1545] This isn't about circumventing rights or the court pro- cess. it's about making sure that if someone in british c olumbia is benefiting from the proceeds of crime, there is a process in place which says: "Y ou're not going to take advantage of that in b.c." K.

Corrigan: i think my colleague from Powell r iver–Sunshine c oast earlier alluded to the fact that when we are considering a piece of legislation like this, we should not only consider what the potential is when we have entirely ethical and professional people in place, which we do. i am certainly not suggesting that the dir - ector of forfeiture or the police officers in this province would do anything inappropriate. That is certainly not my suggestion. i'm merely looking at what the potential pitfalls are if there were pressures somewhere or it occurred to somebody that this might be another way to go.

So i think it's always appropriate, and that is certainly not to in any way suggest lack of professionalism by anybody in government. Y ou know, there always are possibilities where indi - viduals who work in any walk of life might be either pressured or where there's potential for inappropriate - ness. h owever, i'm not even suggesting that it necessarily is inappropriate. i was just trying to get an understand - ing of the workings of the act itself, because i can't imagine that it wouldn't occur to a police officer or to a

british c olumbia Debates7030 Monday, May 16, 2011 police department that if they can't be successful in the criminal law, there is another avenue. i understand that the minister even said in second reading — i don't have a quote of it — that this is essen - tially another way to attack crime. So it's in everybody's mind that this is another way to attack crime, and i would imagine that would be true of the police officers as well. Maybe i'll ask the question in a different way.

The minister talked about the protections that are in place. i wonder if the minister could explain what the pro - cess is in terms of how the property would flow from the police to the office. is all the work that has to do with the criminal process completed and finalized and out of the way before there is, then, a referral to the director? Hon. S. Bond: Y es, my second reading comments were very clear.

This is about cracking down on crime in british c olumbia. it's about ensuring that we have a fair and reasonable process in place. i can assure you that the civil forfeiture office, the director and the police agencies in british c olumbia do not use this process to circumvent other ones. While the member opposite suggests she was not mak- ing that comment, in fact, that was exactly the question that was asked. That is not the case with civil forfeiture. in fact, a demonstration of that success would be 250 successful cases through the court process and not one that was not successful.

There is due diligence. it is an appropriate process. of course we're attacking crime in british c olumbia within a proper process. in relation to the question just asked: yes, the proceed- ings would be complete as it's related to property. That doesn't mean that…. The process related to the criminal charges may still be ongoing, but certainly, it would have to be complete as it relates to the property specifically. N. Simons: i really hope that we don't see resentment on the part of the minister in having to answer these questions. These are the tests that the people of the province deserve answers to.

The minister, if she implies, when we suggest that there are problems with legislation, that she then defends the people sitting next to her…. i think that's just not on. i think the minister knows very well that when we consider, when we have criticisms about the structure of other agencies, the l iberals are the fastest to jump to: "Why do you have trouble with social workers?" or "Why do you criticize police officers?" That's not the point. [1550] We've got legislation in here. We're legislators.

We're supposed to do due diligence on legislation. t o pre - tend or to insinuate that we're somehow insulting staff, i think, is pretty unfair, and i think it should be immedi - ately stopped. i think these questions are fair. if the minister doesn't think the questions are fair, she should say so. if she thinks we're implying that we're denigrating the pos - itions of people in her ministry, she should say so. The Chair: Member…. N.

Simons: We're asking questions because our job is to protect the interest of the public. if it's not our respon- sibility to be careful about this legislation, then we're not doing our jobs. i just take offence to that insinuation. i think these questions are fair. h as civil forfeiture ever used the Safety Standards a mendment a ct as a way of forfeiting property? Hon. S. Bond: n o. N.

Simons: i think it's incumbent on the minister to tell the people of this province what laws could be sub - ject to civil forfeiture and not just leave it up to people to guess. i think that should probably be in the legislation as well, as similar situations exist in other areas. We were talking about the ability for public servants to enter property, to investigate possible theft of elec - tricity without conviction, without even an allegation being filed officially. The right of the court or the right of the civil forfeiture office — with the police assistance, obviously — would exist to forfeit property.

Does the minister believe that this is the law that can be fairly ap - plied, equally applied to all citizens? Hon. S. Bond: The law in british c olumbia, whether it's the civil f orfeiture a ct or any other act, applies to every british c olumbian. o f course that's the case. So yes, i would expect that it is applied equally to all british c olumbians. N.

Simons: c learly, it has been expressed to this h ouse that police forces, when they do not have enough evidence — and do not believe that the crown will ac - cept their evidence, the information they lay before the crown, to convict — and all likelihood of convic - tion, have a backup plan. c an they go to their backup plan of civil forfeiture before presenting information to crown? Hon. S. Bond: This is not a backup plan for police agencies in british c olumbia. it is a civil forfeiture. The case can proceed before it goes to crown, after it goes to crown.

There are a number of ways for police agencies to make that determination. but let's be perfectly clear: there is a burden of proof. The member just spent five minutes articulating the fact that i should clarify when the member opposite makes points. The point is, the member opposite is suggesting that the rcMP uses civil forfeiture as a backup plan with -

british c olumbia DebatesMonday, May 16, 2011 7031 out any sense of evidence or process. That is inaccurate. There is a proper process in place, which is adhered to by both the police agencies of british c olumbia and the director of civil forfeiture. [1555] There is a burden of proof. Y ou have to have evi - dence that it was linked to the proceeds of crime or was actually being used in a crime and of benefiting from the proceeds of crime. There is a very significant process. There is policy that prohibits police agencies and the civil forfeiture director from simply using this as plan b . N.

Simons: c an the police contemplate using it in a situation where a particular crime is a scourge of a par - ticular neighbourhood, for example? Hon. S. Bond: if crown does not charge, there is an opportunity for the police, with the belief and the…. The burden of proof is whether it is an instrument to criminal behaviour and there is benefit to that criminal activity. Y es, the police can do that. N.

Simons: The balance is not whether or not it's an instrument. it's whether or not it's reasonable to assume it's an instrument. i think there's a significant difference. i think the enumeration of criminal offences or of of - fences that could be targeted under this act…. i mean, you look at, for example, bountiful. Polygamy is illegal. Maybe the Solicitor General is looking at other ways of dealing with larger societal issues. is it true that only once the information is returned from the crown to the police that they proceed with civil forfeiture, as the minister just implied? Hon. S.

Bond: n o, i answered that question. it can be before or after. it is a civil process. N. Simons: My direct question was whether or not the police could perhaps use this as a tool to address par- ticular crime problems in particular neighbourhoods. Hon. S. Bond: Y es. if the house is being used as an in- strument for committing crime, yes, they can. N. Simons: So in fact there's a lot of discretion on the part of the police forces in how they apply this particu - lar act. Hon. S.

Bond: There is a lot of process in place, and there's a lot of professionalism. a s i pointed out to the member opposite, there are 250 cases that have been pursued by this director of civil forfeiture through the court system. e very single one of them has been successful. N. Simons: Sometimes the success of legislation speaks to its autocratic nature and not to its precision. i think there's a significant separation of those two pos - sibilities. i'm not suggesting one or the other, but that doesn't tell us anything. Y ou've had 250 successful pros- ecutions. it means that…. h ow many were attempted and fail

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H0516pm-02
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H0516pm 02
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	7481cdf9cd3dcea0717fef8b582950ee1285293e

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