VOL. 3 NO. 64 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD 2:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. THURSDAY, MAY 18, 1978

:.!a.y 1S,l976 Tape No. 3294 AH-1 The l:l.;.use met at 2.:P. <!. Hr. Speaker in the Chair. HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would like to welcome to the galleries this afternoon si:tty-five grade Y students from St. Augustine 1 s Littledale accompanied by tl>o of their teachers, Hiss Shirley Crawley and Sister llargaret Mulcahy. I know hon. members join me in welcoming these students. §_O!!! .. _liQN. r!EMBE~: Hear, hear! HR._ SPEAKER: Ron. Minister of Mines and Energy. l'LR.. PECKFORD: l-!r.

Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to announce that Cabinet today approved applications by the Total Eastcan group for forty-eight first round exploratory permits covering some 18,500,000 acres pursuant to

Section 139 of the Newfoundland and Labrador Petroleum Regulations. snME HON ~~ERS: Hear, hear! MR. PECKFORD: The issuance of these permits represents a major milestone in the long struggle by this government to protect the O'Wilership rights of tile people of this Province to their offshore mineral resources against Ottawa's unfounded and unwarranted claim to them.

The House will reaall that this milestone did not come easy, that this Province was offered the illusionary short-term gain of an limnediate resumption of drilling but at the price of amendments to our regulations which would have jeopardized our basic ~ong-term economic our social objectives. I wish to assure the House that no such amendments have been made- our basic !'t'inciples have not been comnromised· ~n(l "'"' will have the drilling too. A major point of contention has been the amount of acreage to which Eastcan would be given rights-- Ottawa has been far to free on this issue.

I am happy to say that Eastcan has agreed to accept 33 oer cent less acrea2e from the Province than it oresentlv has under federal permit. In addition,it will drop ~0 per cent of the I l

:·:ay 1<3,1978 Tape ~o. 3294 '" ~ cu:-1- ~1R. PECKFORD: sections under permit at the end of six years and a further lU per cent at the end of nine years, }rr. Speaker, while offshore oil and gas has the potential to create a virtual revolution in our employment and business opportunities,that potential will pass us by unless we adequately stress edu::c.tion and training and research and development. Our regulations provide for such a programme aud as a term and condition of their permits the Eastcan group will spend some $1 million per year on such programs, starting immediately.

The total amount committed by the three groups having provincial permits now stands at approximately $1.5 million per year. The administration of these programs will be given a very high priority by my officials in co-operation with other relevant departments. wnen all first round negotiations are completed, I will be establishing an advisory committee composed of representatives of the Province, the oil industry, and local interest groups to draw up a set of guidelines in this respect.

The impact of this program is already being felt to some exten~ in terms of the placing of research contracts with local firms and the hiring of university graduates for on-the-job training in Calgary. iiowever, it will be some time before we have a full progr~ organized in terms of establishing on-the-job opportunities for skilled and semi-skilled trades. I will make a full statement in this regard setting out the details of our proposed program in the near future.

In so far as the drilling is concerned, eight wells which the Eastcan group has already drilled have been accepted as satisfying Eastcan's drilling commitment on eight of ten groups of permits, leaving a minimum of two wells to be drilled in the initial six year exploration period. At the end of that period the Eastcan group will have to commit to further wells or drop its permits. Eastcan is presently in the process of obtaining drilling equipment for a one drillship program for this Summer and I am confident they will mount an

.lay 16,1978 Tape ;{c. 3294 AH-3 even larger program next Summer. llr. Speaker, this government is not a•.rare of the potential hazards which offshore drilling could pose to the environment should a massive oil blow-out take place. I wish to ·.I .. t •

Hay 18, 1978 Tape 3295 EC - 1 MR. PECKFORD: inform the House that contrary to suggestions from certain quarters this Province will take its full share of responsibility for the protection of the environment and the fisheries which are the very lifeblood of our Labrador and Northeast Coasts. The specific drilling programme proposed by Eastcan for this Summer will be examined in great detail by my officials in this light.

However, I should add that the Government of Canada have claimed, and indeed probably have, under our present constitution, a concurrent responsibility in this area of fisheries and the environment. I should stress that that responsibility is quite separate and apart and does not arise from its groundless claim to the ownership of our offshore oil and gas resources. They are entirely two separate issues. Given this divided jurisdiction, I am happy to say that I expect that relations between Ottawa and the Province in this area will be marked with the highest level of co-operation and co-ordination possible.

I am confident that my federal counterparts feel the same way. I have said before, and I repeat now, that this great victory would not have been possible without the full support which this government has received on this issue from an overwn.elmingly· vast majority of Newfoundlanders. It is, Mr. Speaker, a shining example of the potential of the political solidarity of the Newfoundland people when they stand as one man- dedicated to the future of ttleir ,Province. I hasten to add, Mr.

Speaker, that while we have won a great battle, the war is not yet over - next comes an epic clash with Ottawa before the I j j ! . ~ ~ i: .

!1ay 18, 197 8 Tape 3295 EC - 2 MR. PECKFORD: Supreme Court of Canada. Mr. Speaker, a major part of our legal case will rest on the struggle of the Newfoundland people to protect .. their natural resources against seemingly overwhelming odds. We will be citing such great victories as the resolution of the French Shore problem in 1904 which . ~ secured our West Coast, the North Atlantic Fisheries Arbitration of 1910 which forced American fishermen from our bays and the Labrador boundary case of 1927 which confirmed our rights to Labrador.

Not only will the basic legal and political principles which are at the core of these great victories be disected and examined but in doing so · the tremendous achievements that those victories represent will once again become a source of pride and strength to all Newfoundlanders. Mr.

Speaker, perhaps today's announcement does not rank with those great victories. ·rowever, it should now be apparent to all concerned, whether in Ottawa, Calgary, Houston or Paris, that the tide of events in the question of offshore oil and gas has changed and that it is now flowing,relentlessly and with increasing momentum,in favour of the Newfoundland people. ' SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Eagle River. HR. STRACHAN: Mr. Speaker, I do not know whether this was an oil and gas policy or a description of the Battle of Britain with epic clashes and victories, etc.

I should say, Mr. Speaker, in responding, the ministerial statement that the Minister of Fisheries pr~sented was only two pages long - very short -

i1ay 18, 1978 Tape 3295 EC - 3 }!R. STRACHAN: but he had to cut his as always to give it to us so we could respond to it intelligently. We have asked a number of times that statements like this surely a few minutes beforehand could be given to us so we would be able to respond to it intelligently. There are a few points I would like to make.

The minister, as usual, took a few slashes at Ottawa continually all through for its unwarranted and unfounded claim - no arguments there, we agree with that - took a few slashes here and there almost all the way through as though this battle was between Newfoundland and Ottawa. And in essence, what it was, was that in coming to terms by the oil companies with this Province's oil and gas regulations, it was nothing to do with the seabed per se, it was more to do with their coming to terms with this Province's oil and gas regulations rather than fighting with Ottawa. And then, Mr.

Speaker, the minister, after stating that, after slashing Ottawa, then stated in the ministerial statement that he is confident that Ottawa and Newfoundland will co-operate. And it makes us wonder, if you keep lashing people and hitting them over the head, whether they will continue to co-operate.

I also notice a few things here, and I will state here quite clearly on the environmental aspect - it is something that we have talked about a lot the minister states that the government, the administration opposite will accept its full share of responsibilities, and I will state here now and go on record as our point . ~ ! I ;l I -~

May 18, 1978 Tape 3295 EC - 4 ~TRACBAN: here, that if the environmental questions which are seriously ~o doubt in this kind of drilling are not taken care of with all kinds of guarantees and e~tremely rigid regulation, then I think that the administration opposite will take its full share of responsibilities and its full share of the blame as well, because I think there could be a very serious situation occurring in dril~ i ng off the Labrador Coast. And I will state here and now that I think that there are no technologica~ advances yet which will take care of any kinds o f ! ' t ! ! : I I i• . j! .- ~ '~ ..

May 18, 1978 Tape 3296 PK - 1 Mr. Strachan: blowouts at the depths, and the waters we are talking about drilling, and that Eastcan is talking about drilling. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. STRACHAN: I think this should be pointed out very clearly. The last point is that Eastcan, of course, have drilled eight wells, two more to go, and this will complete their drilling aspect. One of the arguments- ~nd 1 of course, the original argument was that they held large acreages and there was no question these acreages had to be reduced.

These acreages originally were held a number of years ago, considerable years ago under federal permit. They have now reduced them by 33 per cent. MR. PECKFORD: Under the provincial permit. MR. STRACHAN: Under this provincial permit. They have reduced them to 33 per cent, and of course, in nine years they are going to drop it again by another 40 per cent, I believe, the figures were, and then a 10 per cent drop later on. Surely what the drop is now is just a natural drop, and I think that it needs to come, that they have to drop these kinds of acreages because they cannot continue to hold them.

But I think that they are also playing a very wily game, and that the acreages they are dropping are obviously the acreages of their previous work they feel will be unsuccessful or unproductive. And, of course, it suits them as well as it suits us at the moment to keep dropping acreages of that nature. Otherwise, Mr. Speaker, there is nothing I can go on. I will have to read it very arefully and very thoroughly before we could get into any reasonable and intelligent debate. But I would interested if the minister would table all the regulations, the amendments,whatever is involved, we would like to see, it.

And it would be advisab~e if we could manage to get these statements a couple of minutes before. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to announce today that my aepartment will be establishing a Fisheries Regional Office in Happy Valley-Goose Bay to look after the needs of the fishermen in Labrador.

May 18, 1978 Tape 3296 PK - 2 Mr. W. Carter: This office, which will be staffed by a Regional ~eoresentative. will be set up by early Summer. A Fisheries Field Representative will also be appointed within the next month and will be stationed in the Mary's Harbour area. The Field Representative will concentrate his efforts in the Eastern and Southern Labrador Coastal area. Considerable thought was given, Mr. Speaker, to setting up the office in Happy Valley-Goose Bay rather than on the Coast where the majority of fishermen are located. The main reason was because of transportation problems on the Coast.

Happy Valley-Goose Bay is situated near an airport which makes it more feasible for the ~gional ~eoresentative to travel to any other part of the coast that he desires. This office, Mr. Speaker, will provide Labrador fishermen with up-to-date information on Departmental programmes and projects, the training programmes of the College of Fisheries, the Fisheries Loan Board and new harvesting and processing methods. This, Mr. Speaker, brings to seven the number of Regional Offices that may department has established throughout the Province.

The other offices are located at Port au Choix, Port Saunders, Gander, Bonavista, Grand Bank, and Harbour Grace. Field Representatives are also located in St. Anthony, Marystown, St. John's, Wesleyville and Bay Bulls. During the next year or two Field Representatives will also be appointed in the Port au Port area and the Baie Verte area which will complete our field staff programme. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Eagle River. MR. STRACHAN: Mr. Speaker, in responding to the statement I would again wish to thank the minister for allowing us a copy of his statement.

We, of course, welcome this announcement. It has been a position, .. a ,regional office in Goose Bay-Labrador which we have asked for, for many years. My colleague here who represents the Department of Fisheries on our side, the member for Trinity-Bay de Verde (Mr. F, Rowe) • I ·11 ~ !•

~.ay 18 . 1 978 Tape 3296 PK - 3 Mr. s ttachan: has been pushing a number of times to set up this :regional office, and of course, we welcome this regional office. I agree w:f,th' the regional office being in Hap-py V:Hley-Goose Bay because it is the cent~al point , it is the hub of Labrador, in fact. If you travel from the Notth to the South of Labrador you have always got to come through Goose Bay to go South again or vice-versa, so it is obvious that Goose Bay with its airport should be and is the centre of the regional offices in Labrador.

I hope that this one man will only be the start because I think that you cannot iUst out one man in or think that by putting one civil servant t?ter~ you will solve the problems of tbe Labr:ador Coast, in the fisheries. I think you have to beef up tnat department, I think, you have to have peQple who are knowledgeable about the local situat:ion and co.nditions as well. And by putting the field representative in Macy's Harbour, in liaison with &oose Bay, I think, is a start on that pro.gramme. And I commend the minister for malting this start which we waited for

May 18, 1978 Tape t:o. 3297 NM- 1 MR. STRACHAN: many, many years and we have called for for many, many years, and I would like to say that we welcome this. It will be of much use to the people there who know nothing about government programmes, who know nothing about the various loans and so on they can get. I get constant requests for that and I think that this kind of office, beefed up hopefully in the near future,is the kind of office we are looking for. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture . MR. MAYNARD: Mr.

Sneaker, I would like to make a statement on a stabilization programme for one of our most fmportant agriculture commodities - MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order has come up. MR. NEARY: Would the hon. gentleman get a little nearer the mike because we do not - MR. MAYNARD: I am sorry, the mike is on. MR. NEARY: We do not have the ministerial statement in front of us. We wnuld like to hear what the minister is saying. MR.. MAYNARD: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to announce a new Swine Industry Stabilization Program which is applicable to all commercial swine producers who market hogs thrnugh the Newfoundland Farm Products Corporation outlet. Before I outline the details I would like to provide some background information. The Government has been encouraging a minimal disease swine pro2ram for a numbe~ of years and in 1976 the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture outlined a detailed five year plan to further develou and expand the industry.

The program is desi2ned primPrily to produce fresh pork for the local market and eventUally compete in world markets as a supplier of minimal disease breeding stock.

May 18, 1978 Tape No. 3297 NM - 2 MR. MAYNARD: Animals owned by commercial swine producers registered undar the Government swine pro2ram are free of some specific diseases and are the result of a planned crossb~eeding program. These two important factoTs mean the pigs grow faster, more efficiently and consequently the Newfoundland Producers can be competitive with Mainland producers even though some production costs are higher. This, of course, means that many consumers have an opportunity to purchase fresh pork. This would not be possible if we did not have a local swine industry.

In 1977 twenty-three commercial producers marketed 25,700 hogs through the Newfoundland Farm Products Corporation. This resulted in 4.2 million pounds of processed carcass and the gross return to producers was 2.8 million dollars. In addition 1,600 small weanling pigs were sold on the open market to people wishing to raise one or two for their own use. Newfoundland swine producers, with an average of 188 animals per farm, reported the largest average production units of all the Provinces in Canada. It is hoped that production will increase to 50,000 hogs per year in the next few years.

In the Eastern part of the Province the killing and cooling facilities at the abattoir have been limiting expansion. However, at the present time Newfoundland Farm Products Corporation is expanding its facilities in order to double the capacity of the plant. Also, further processing of some pork products is under consideration to eliminate exporting the by-products to the Mainland for further processing. Private multiplier breeding herds-are being established to tranafer a portion of the breeding program now carried out at the Provincial Swine Breeding Stations to private industry.

This means that the industry can expand without expanding facilities at the provincial stations. i -~

May 18, 1978 Tape No. 3297 NM - 3 MR.. MAYNARD: Further steps are also underway to ensure protection of the superior health status of the swine population. Last year new regulations under the Livestock Health Act "were introduced to prohibit swine producers on the Mainland from sellin~, to Newfoundland, pigs harbouring diseases not prevalent in our Province. Also plans are underway to eradicate pigs within the Province not under the swine program so as to eliminate any diseases they might be carrying.

This involves about sixty individuals who keep a few breeding animals outside the provincial program primarily for the ~reduction of weanling pigs. This way of life has been traditional with many of our rural people and it is not government's intention to change it, but rather to take positive steps to improve it. The procedure for eliminating the possibly diseased pigs will be to require the slaughter of all pigs of unknown health status, the cleaning and disinfecting of the buildings in which they are kept,and restocking by the government, if it is so desired by the owners, with the minimal disease animala.

The foregoing shows that there is an important and unique swine industry in Newfoundland and there is a detailed plan to further develop it. A few months ago the North American outlook information for hogs indicated a higher volume of hog slaughterin~s and lower prices to producers starting in the last half of 1978. The proiections suggest that the prices to producers may fall below the cost of production from time to time during the next year or so. . '

ciay lo,l973 Tape No. 3290 cli-1 It is unreasonable to expect primary producers to remain in production for any extended period of time if the returns from their business cannot cover production costs and the stabilization program now being offered is a remedial course of action if this . ~ situation does, in fact, occur. The purpose of the Hog Stabilization Program .. can be described as follows;

(1) To bring greater stability to the production of hogs so that producers, during below cost of production prices, are not forced to cut back production because they are unable to meet their direct operating costs, or are forced out of business completely. However, if producers wish to stabilize their incomes beyond the cost of production level then it should be their own responsibility. Our program is not a guaranteed income but only a stabilization program coverning producer's cost of production.

(2) To provide a safeguard for the lending institutions who may be, or already have been, asked to provide long, intermediate and short-term capital for the industry.

(3) To provide a safeguard to the contribution that the industry makes, or has made, to the economy of the Province in the form of protection for the people employed in the primary industry, the processing industry, the service related industries.

(4) To make up the difference between payments by the Federal Agricultural Stabilization Board and payments necessary to sustain a viable hog industry in Newfoundland because of higher than national average costs of production. The stabilization plan is effective immediately and will operate as follows: 01) The current cost of production in Newfoundland is estimated to be fifty-four cents per pound. If prices drop below that base price then Newfoundland Yarm Products will advance producers payments equivalant to fifty-four cents per pound for all hogs indexing 102 and over. This

:ray 13,1978 Tape No. 3298 Ali-2 i·!R. MAYNARD: index is a measure of quality and thus the stabilization program is also designed to encourage quality production.

(2) The guaranteed price of fifty-four cents will be raised if costs of production increase and it will be lowered if costs of production decreases. ' .

(3) Producers will begin refunding advances made to them when the price for pork exceeds the guaranteed price by two cents per pound. 1 In

summary the program represents an interest free -il l loan to producers at times when prices are higll or where their product falls below the cost of production. For the longer term a Hog Stabilization Board will be established under legislative authority of the Natural Products Harketing Act. The Board will consist of two swine producers, two members of the department and one member from the Newfoundland Farm Products Corporation. The Board will be commissioned to undertake the t. following: (

A) A complete cost of production study for the Newfoundland Swine Industry. (

B) A cost component indexing system such that the cost of production can be updated at three month intervals. (

c) A review of the short-term program and, if appropriate recommend the establishment and administration of a long-term program which will achieve the objective and purposes as outlined in this paper. This would replace the present short-term program and could be operated independently or in harmony with the Federal Agricultural Stabilization Board. The purpose of these actions is to more accurately refine the components of a stabilization program for the swine industry. At present the cost of production figures ~eing used are estimates and actual figures should be developed.

I have outlined on behalf of government the rationalization for a Swine Industry Stabilization Program and the details as to how it >v.lll

:·!ay lil ,l978 Tape i;o. 329<.> Mi-3 operate. I am confident that contiuued co-operation between industry and government will result in continued development and expansion of a viable swine industry in our Province. SOl-IE HON. ME~·IBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Ron. member for St.

George's MRS MciSAAC: In reply to the minister's statement I think again that this is an insult to the members of t!u01 House to pass around a statement of this length while the minister is on his feet speaking - SO:-JE HON. ~ 1El1llERS : Hear, :1ear: MRS MciSAAC: which does not give the shadow Cabinet minister a chance to read it and see what it is all about. And as far as the swine production and the swine breeding station is concerned I think it is nothing but a mockery and an insult to the intelligence of the farmers in Newfoundland. S01lE liON.

Hlnll\ERS : Hear, hear! ~lRS MciSAAC: It is driving people out of production, they do not have firm policy, the Department of Agriculture does not have a firm policy and certainly not where swine breeding is concerned. I know in my own district there are people who have :1ad to go out of production, out of swine production. ~here is no t - ~ .I . I r I ll

}!ay 18, 1978 Tape 3299 EC - 1 MRS. MciSAAC: way . under the stringent regulations that are being brought in by this government, there is no way in the world that swine breeders can stay in production; and they have gone out. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Of course they have. MRS. MciSAAC: And to go further, they are not permitted to import swine, not even for their own use. If I wanted to import one to raise for my family I am not allowed to do it - I am under a $500 fine if I import it. MR. FLIGHT: 'WhiOt"? URS.

MciSAAC: Yes, a $500 fine if I import one from Nova Scotia, But in the meantime, the swine production stations in this Province are not capable of producing the required number of hogs that are needed in the Province. I have evidence of that in my district. And the minister is fully aware of that fact. There were two of his representatives out in the Codroy Valley or Robinsons area last week and they were told that they would probably have a chance to obtain swine sometime in July.

Now the swine breeders in this Province do not want swine or young pigs in July, they want them early in the Spring so that they can raise them to their full growth and make a dollar off them. But the way that the programme is set up and the way that the minister is handling the swine breeding production or the swine breeding station in this Province is doing nothing but driving our swine producers out of business and making it impossible for them to compete in any which way or form.

I would like to have had the chance to study this for a couple of days, but instead of that, this gets passed around while the minister is on his feet speaking - l t. r: .. '

May 18, 1978 Tape 3299 EC - 2 . ' SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MRS. MciSAAC: and there is no time - nobody in the world can read it and understand it, and I do not think there is that much in it to understand anyway· Thank you. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES '· l1R. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I wish to table on behalf of the Newfoundland Amateur Sports Federation a copy of the history of the Canada Summer Games. The history was put together, Mr.

Speaker, as a joint financial project on behalf of the Secretary of State and my department, a report depicting the success of our own athletes, of course, and all the other athletes from across the.country at what was, as I am sure all hon. members will agree, a very successful Games during the past year and certainly it is one that should be recorded for history's sake. NOTICES OF MOTION MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Detention Of Intoxicated Persons Act, 1973." ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. HICKMAN: I table a reply to an oral question asked on April 25th of me by the hon. the member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall).

May 18, 1978 Tape 3299 EC - 3 ORAL QUESTIONS HR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the ·. i Opposition. MR. W. N. ROWE: Sir - SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! ~!R. W. N. ROWE: A takeover bid. I wish the han. the member for Ferryland district (Mr. Power) would call a leadership convention, Sir, we would not have to put up with these ministerial statements filled with purple pros all the time- leny.thy five page statements. Mr.

Speaker, owing to the importance of the matter - ordinarily I would address it to the Minister of Labour and Manpower - but in this particular case because it is so important, I will ask the Premier this question. As he is aware, Sir, a strike vote was conducted on Thursday, I believe, the 11th of May, among the lab and X-Ray technicians bargaining unit and the minister was notified, I believe, on the same day that they had voted to strike, which right to strike accrues due if I am not mistaken, Sir, as of 12:00 midnight tonight.

So at 12:01 tomorrow t~ey have a right to go on strike - a very important segment of the health service of this Province, with the possibility perhaps of a sympathetic failure to cross the picket lines by other people involved in hospitals, Sir. Now, what

May 18, 1978 Tape No. 3300 N!1 - 1 MR. W. ROWE: I would like to ask the Premier, in view of the importance and urgency of this, has he or his colleagues or anyone in the government, official or otherwise, been in contact with this bargaining unit, or any representative of it, since the strike vote was taken in an effort to get the parties together again in the hope of averting what may be a provincewide strike in this field1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, first of all to the Leader of the Opposition's opening comments as he led up to this about the leadership convention ·being called by the member for Ferryland (Mr. C. Power), Sir, you see the difference is that the member for Ferryland, as opposed to the member from St. John's West (Dr. Kitchen), does not have any aspirations for that particular job at this point in time. But having said that, and th4! member from the Straits SOME RON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! PREMIER MOORES : - is not here to defend himself so I will not comment any further.

But regarding the particular question that the Leader of the Opposition asked, it is of a serious nature. It is one that the Treasury Board officials have been negotiating with this particular group on for several months and I think in all fairness that rather than the Minister of Manpower and Labour, or myself for that matter, I think the President of the Treasury Board could give a better position on it than either of us. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. !resident of Treasury Board. (Inaudible) MR. MAYNARD: Does the hon. gentleman want the question answered or what? Yes, Mr.

Speaker, it is true that the lab and x-ray technicians have a legal right to go on strike as of midnight tonight. Our people are standing by in case they . '

May 18, 1978 Tape No. 3300 NM - 2 MR. MAYNARD: want to !lit down and do some more bargaining. I am sure my colleague, the hon. Minister of Labour, would quite happily provide any services that he could provide, ···mediation, conciliation, or whatever. We put our position forward, a position that we feel that we can live with and until such time as the two sides can get back together, I guess the situation will remain at an impasse. But as I say we are ready and willing at any time to sit down at the table with the lab and x-ray people or with any other group to carry on further negotiations. MR. W.

ROWE: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the Leader of the Opposition. MR. W. ROWE: By way of preliminary prelude to my supplementary question I might say, Sir;- Mr. Speaker, evervone i~ the Province knows that the only way the Premier was able to hold his group together the other night for that heinous vote of expulsiou, was the promise of a leadership convention within the next six months. MR. HICKMAN: To whom? You did not talk to me. MR. W. ROWE: Well he only talked to the important aspirants. Those who were not leadership aspirants, Sir, he threatened with an election.

Of course that kept them in line. MR. FLIGHT: That will take care of them. MR. W. ROWE: That is whv they all voted in the free vote, Mr. Speaker. But to get back to more important matters of public policy, I wish the m{nister would answer the exact specific question I asked him, Mr. Speaker; has anybody in Treasurv Bo~. Td, the m:fnister or any of his officials, been in contact with or appreached or sat down with any representatives of this bargaining unit, the lab and x-ray technicians bargaining unit since the minister was notified of the strike vote having been taken and the vote being . I 'I ·3

May 18, 1978 Tape No. 3300 NM- 3 MR. W. ROWE: yes, I believe about a week ago. Has anybody been in touch with them, to sit down with them? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. President of Treasury Board. MR. MAYNARD: They have certainly been in touch with the people, Mr. Speaker, but they have not been negotiating with them as such during the past week. The union, as I understand it, made it quite clear that they were taking a s 'trike vote and then they served notice through the Minister of Labour and the situation has been pretty well stalemated from that point in time.

We have made our position and I assume that if the union wants to take a strike then that is the only way that they will go about it, they will. But we would hope that before they go on strike they will come back and have another try at negotiating a settlement with the officials of Treasury Board. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. W. ROWE: The minister is hard to understand, Mr. Speaker. I do not know if his mike does not work or if he is too far away from it or what? I cannot hear a word he is saying half the time.

But, Sir, in any event - is the minister sayina that he is not going to exert as a member of the government with the threat of a strike of x-ray and lab technicians hanging over us and perhaps people not crossing the picket lines in hospitals and so on, Mr. Speaken~ is he saying that the government is going to wait now for the next move to be made by the union who have already made their intentions perfectly well known~ They are going to go on strike unless some action is taken to avert the strike.

Is the minister going to see to it that somebody goes and sees them and hopefully sit down with them and try to negotiate an end to this impasse1 If there is a stalemate then · r . ; . ~ t .. ' . ,

}Jay lo,l973 Tape No. 33 01 AH-1 MR.W.ROWE: surely there is a responsibility on the government as well as on the union to try to get the parties together and try to get over the stalemate and try to get this strike averted. I am frightened, Mr. Speaker, I put it by way of a question to the minister, I am frightened at the arrogant attitude assumed by the Treasury Board president in this regard and by the government as a whole. Why does not the minister call up or get one of his officials to call up the representative of this bargaining unit and say "Come on let us sit down.

Rather than go on strike give it one more last ditch effort to avert what would be a very disastrous strike in an essential portion of the public service." Why does he not do that ? MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Minister. }'JR. MAYNARD : Mr. Speaker, the hon. Leader of the Opposition seems to have a hard time understanding too. I said that our people had been in contact with the people who are negotiating for the Lab and X-ray group but there had not 7 in the last few days at least,been any negotiations as such.

I am not going to discuss bargaining strategy here, we will discuss bargaining strategy at the table if there is a strike situation - which I hope there will not be. If there is a strike situation and anyone wants to k110W what our present position is and why they went on strike well then I can give it but at this point in time there is no strike, our people are willing and . able and ready to sit down at any time with the bargaining unit for Lab and X-ray people and that is where the situation stands right at this moment. UR. W.ROWE: A final supplementary, Sir. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary. ~IR.W.ROWE: If the minister wants to have a word to say after, Sir, he can. I want to direct a supplementary to the president of the Treasury Board. Sir, I do not think he is right when he says that they have been in contact with the bargaining unit. My information as of an hour or so ago was that government had not approached the oargaining

Hay la ,l973 Tape No . 3301 Ali-2 HR.W.RO~_:_ unit, maybe they have in the last couple of hours - I do not know what is wrong with tne Minister of Manpower over there, Sir. ~UME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! i'IR. ~-E.: Well he can get up now in a second. Is the minister saying that he is going to wait for a strike to occur and parties have dug in and it is a difficult job for anyone to do anything because everJone is afraid of losing face and so on, and then he is going to try to take positive action to stop the strilre. Is that what he is saying?

If so, Sir, I would like the miaister to answer that because if so it is a highly irresponsible attitude to take towards the possibility of a strike in this essential sector of the public service. I did not say that. i·!R.I v. ROWE: Well it sounded lil~e you did. }JR. SPEAKER: Hon. Minister of Labour and Hanpower. i<JR. ROUSSEAU: If I may, Sir? I just checked with the office and the conciliation officer has been intouched with both parties and a meeting has been arranged for Tuesday morning, I think it is at 11 o'clock. MR. NEARY: When did that - }JR. ROUSSEAU: Oh I suppose sometime this morning or yesterday.

I do not know. I just checked with the office. MR. SJ'EAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. }iR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I want to give the bon. Minister of Transportation an opportunity to table the proposals re; helicopter contracts that I asked for the other day by asking the minister if it is correct-and I was astounded to hear this statement on the radio,that the Sealand helicopters have not yet received one penny from the public Treasury. Is this a true statement? I heard on the radio that Sealand helicopters are working for charity that they have not received one cent yet from the public Treasury.

Could t he minister confirm or deny this and then table the documents that I asked the minister to table the other day? I "! I 1

:lay 16,197 () Tape ;-io. 33Cl AH-3 The non . m~nister. MR. DOODY: Greater love than this hath no man chan he lay down his helicopter service for his Province. A.'l EON MEMBER: :1R. DOODY: Or his friends . Or his friends. The situation is , Su, that there have been no bills submitted by that company because we have not had an opportunity to sign an agreement with them.

We have a contract insofar as the tender call has been tue lowest tender that QaS submitted and it was accepted by govertllllent . ::: will pass over t.he entire file to the House as soon as the legal people on both sides agree on the verbiage of the actual contract, the formal contract and then it will be possible to pay these people for the work that they are doing for the Provinc e. But until that time I am afraid that we cannot pay any b~s . " I ~ .. :• '

May 18 , 1978 Tape 3302 PK - 1 Mr. Doody: The first document that I have here, Sir, and I had all of these documents here yesterday, Mr. Speaker, which was my commitment4 Unfortunately, I was not in the position to table · them because we went on at great length, and properly so, in discussing the Labrador highway situation.

The first document is the terms of reference for the tender call which the Department of Transportation set forth, and it calls for the provision of helicopter services, the hourly rates, the options for negotiation at the end . ~ of a three year term, the flying service, it will entail medical evacuation, forest firefighting, and terrain surve i llance, aerial search, personnel transportation and so on. The main base of operation will be at Gander, the minimum number of hours, the minimum number of helicopters, the type of helicopters, the float gear, the gear load, ~ ,.

A ,, the sling load, whatever all of that is all about, turbines, and so on . And a copy of the bidders current approved CTC tariff was to accompany the tender. The department does not bind itself to accept the lowest or any tender. And for further details please contact the Director of Transportation, and the Department of Transportation and Communications.

And then the next document is the requisition for supplies or services which was the document, I guess, that went to the purchasing agency authorizing them to put the tender call in the various newspapers and in industry periodicals and magazines across Canada. The next document then is one which is an actual copy of the tender call itself copied from one of the local newspapers. I know not which it was, it does not seem to identify itself here,but it is clearly stated, signed by the then minister, and it confirms the detail of the SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. DOODY: Pardon? Is there a question? SOME HON.

MEMBERS : Table it! Table it! MR. DOODY: I am going to table it. I am going to table it. This is a very important issue which gentlemen have been referring .~

May 18, 1978 Tape 3302 PK - 2 Mr. Doody: to and hon. people in the House have been referring to for a great deal of time and a great length of time and there is a lot of money involved , and there is a lot of controversy involved, and I want to~ make it abundantly clear to this House and to this Province that I am not or this department is not or this Province is not concealing or hiding anything. Now bon. people opposite asked for this information. And I have every intention, Sir, with your permission to provide this information, and I have every intention of tabling it.

But I have no intention of just throwing a bunch of papers on the Table of the House to be construed or misconstrued as may be at the will or so on of members. So I am just passing it on to the best of my ability in the way that I think best. And if hon. members do not want the information they can tell me so and I will take it all back and put it back in the files were I found it. AN RON. MEMBER: No threats now. MR. DOODY: No, no, this is a promise. Let it never be said that I ever threatened anyone.

The next one is the particulars relating to the contract for provision of helicopter services, and this is the D.M•s the Deputy Minister's directive which outlines very clearly what was felt to be necessary •. It describes back up helicopters of each type OAG whatever that is, equipment slings, nets, chokers, and things, I am sure - oh, yes each type of helicopter will be capable of rapid conversion to air ambulance configuration as required, a two stretcher configuration as a requisite. That was a very important part of the whole bit.

Float gear will be available as required for each type of helicopter at no extra charge. Back up helicopters of each type available, and so on and so on. Out-of-pocket expenses, approval of out-of-pocket expenses and so on. Then we have the Tender Board report, which is one that the House should be very interested in, because, I think, this answers perhaps indirectly one of the questions that the hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) asked directly as to what the .t input Uirector of Air Services had in the tender process

!-l_ay 18' 1978 Tape 3302 PK - 3 Mr. Doody: The Tender Bo-ard report which is the evaluation of tne tenders which were received in rep ly to the Pub lic Tender process whicit I .just des_cribed to the House, the evaluation wa.s done by a Committee of the deparonent headed by Mr. D. B. Simmons who is the Director of Air Opeartions, and consisted of the Assistant Depucy Minister of Tec.hnical Services, who is Mr. Lew mrl.te whom most people in the House know, the Director of Air Operations, who is Mr. Simmons, the gentleman 'lilhom I just mentioned, and ----,- -

May 18, 1978 Tape 3303 EC - 1 MR. DOODY: the Administrative Officer of Engineering, who is Mr. William Knight. These . I three gentlemen evaluated the tenders after they had been opened publicly in the department, having been advertised as being opened publicly. The list of the eight tenders which were received are here and it ·j is signed by the then minister over the signature of D. B. Simmons, Director of Air Operations. Mr. Simmons says, "I approve the a~·Tard of a contract as recommended above and - MR. W.N. ROWE: Who were they? MR. DOODY: MR. W.N. ROWE: The eight. MR.

DOODY: Oh, the eight people who tendered. Sealand Helicopters Limited had the lowest tender - $1,558,582; the next one was Heli-Voyageur Ltd. MK. NEARY: We can read. MR. DOODY: You have not demonstrated that to my satisfaction as yet. So, with your permission, Sir, and with the permission of the House I will continue to answer the question. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. DOODY: If the hen. House wants the information on the tendering process of this government and of this department then I have every intention of providing it - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

DOODY: ~ut if the House does not ~•ant it, Sir, I will take it back. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DOODY: I will give it in detail or not at all.

May 18, 1978 Tape 3303 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order. MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman, Sir, got himself in hot water the other day with his colleagues, and now the bon. gentleman is trying to make up for it by stalling the Question Period. I would submit, Your Honour, that the bon. gentleman put the information on the table of the House. lfe can interpret it. We have people who can read, ~d we have people who can go over the information and look it over . And we will put our own

interpretation t .. on it. We do not need the minister's

interpretation. ~ MR. DOODY: On that point of order, Mr. Speaker, if indeed it was a point of order. My thoughts on the idea - at least my feeling on the idea is that a minister when asked a question has the option of either answering it or not answering it. My information to the House as I expressed it was that I would answer it . I have no intention of just throwing in dribs, drabs, bits and pieces.

I have every intention of supplying the House with all the information that is available in that particular file and I want to do it in such a way that the press, the public and the members of this House get all the information that is available in that file and not just bits and pieces, Sir. MR. NEARY: To that point of order, Mr.Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : Order, please: To the point of order. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, just to refresh Your Honour's memory, the question put to the hon. gentleman had nothing to do with what the hon. gentleman is reading out now.

It had to do with a question that I asked the hon. gentleman on whether Mr. Dobbin and Sealand Helicopters were working for this Province for charity or whether they ,lOO

May 18, 1978 Tape 3303 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: were being paid. That was the question I put to the han. gentleman, and the hon. gentleman, Sir, is not answering my question. MR. DOODY: Hr. Speaker, may I speak once more, Sir - MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the minister. MR. DOODY: With your permission, Mr.Speaker, the han. gentleman opposite also asked me to provide the House with the information regarding the tendering procedure - who was the lowest tenderer, and if indeed, Sealand Helicopters had a second crack at the tender, if my memory serves me correctly.

And I am now trying to provide that information, but if the House does not want it, Sir, I will put it back in the files. I have all the original documents. MR. NEARY: No, table the information. MR. W. N. ROWE: Sir, may I speak to that point of order, please? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. ~v. N. ROWE: I refer Your Honour to Standing Order 3l.(

a) of this House, in which it is stated,'provided also that the minister to whom a question is directed may take such oral question as notice to be answered orally at a later sitting, but where any such reserved question requires as its answers a lengthy statement, such statement shall be given under the ordinary daily routine proceeding "statements by Ministers." ' Now, Mr. Speaker, it is a gross -I ' insult and abuse of the Question Period for this hon. minister to be taking up one half hour of valuable time, Sir, when he could be making that ministerial statement.

May 18, 1978 Tape 3303 EC - 4 MR • W. N.

ROlvE : None of his other colleagues hesitate to make ministerial statements, Instead Sir, we are having a half hour of the most valuable time available to private members of this House being taken up needlessly, Sir, in order to stall in the answer of urgent questions which members of this House have. ., And, Sir, I would ask the han. member - I would by leave, Sir, allow him to revert to Statements by Ministers and make the statement, which he should do, under Standing Order 31, then we can have some time left for the Oral Question Period which is essential to the running of this House. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! AN HON. MEMBER: Shame! Shame! MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, if I ma~ to that point of order . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: The hon. gentlemen opposite have been asking questions of the hon. the Minister of Transportation and Communications for the last couple of days and again today with respect to the tendering process, and the minister, with that kind of question, is entitled to present this House with facts. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

HICKMAN: And the han. gentleman has an obligation - I would say, a very serious obligation - to answer by facts innuendoes which have been coming across the House -I ,. .. , I

May 18, 1978 Tape No. 3304 NM - 1 MR.. HICKMAN: dealing with this matter and it is the truth, the whole truth, so why should anyone be upset · because the hon. gentleman wants to give the truth. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! On this matter I think there are two - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) }IIR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Two authorities which I will allude to , one quoted by the hon. Leader of the Opposition, and the other from Beauchesne. Standing Order 31 (a), I will read the entire thing because it is quite relevant.

"The ordinary daily routine proceeding "Oral Question" provided in Standing Order 14 shall last not more than thirty minutes, including supplementary questions and points of order. In these pP.riods questions on matters of urgency may be addrssed orally to Ministers of the Crown, provided, however, that Mr.

Speaker shall disallow~y question which he does not consider urgent or of public importance; provided also that if in the opinion of the Minister to Whom a question is addressed it requires a lengthy answer, he may require it to be placed on the Order Paper; and provided also that the hini~t~r to whom a question is directed may take such oral question as notice to be answered orally at a later sitting, but where any such reserved question requires as its answers a lengthy statement, such statement shall be given under the ordinary daily routine proceedin& "Statements by Ministers." SOME RON. MEMBERS: Rear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I draw to hon. members attention as well Beauchesne,

section 181, paragraph (1) "Questinns must be answered briefly and distinctly, and be limited to the necessary explanations, though a certain latitude is permitted to Ministers of the Crown whenever they find it necesary to extend their remarks with the SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! f . ~ I l I I . I l

May 18, 1978 Tape No. 3304 NM - 2 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! - to extend their remarks with the view of clearly explaining the matter in question." A very difficult situation the Chair is in here. It would appear, and obviously we cannot work retroactively, it would appear perhaps that this problem would have been precluded if the han. minister had required the question to be on the Order Paper, because then the answer would not have come under Ural ~u~~tions. ~owavar, he is under no obligation to have so done.

What one has to balance here it says, '~ere any such reserved question _requires as its answer a lengthy statement, such statement ahall be given under the ordinary daily routine proceeding Statements by Ministers." That is operative on this House as it is on me. I must also bear in mind that where a minister finds it necessary to extend the remarks with a view to clearly explain:lng the matter tn question then obviously the minister has a certain discretion there and not one with which I can interfere too much in the exercise because he has to use his own judgement.

I think all I can say is this, that the rest of the hon. minister's reply should be quite brief. I will not say he cannot reply any further but should be fairly brief, bearing in mind what the Standing Order says that, "Where ! .I any such reserved question requires as its answer a lengthy statement, such statement shall be given under the daily I ~ routine proceedings cif Statements by Ministers." So what I would ask the hon. I minister is to, at least in the answering of it in the ural Question period, to have the rest of his answer brief and,of I ,;

May 18, 1978 Tape No. 3304 JM - 3 ·HR. SPEAKER: course,if he does not feel that is satisfactory he may always chose other options in which to give the information. The han. minister. MR. DOODY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I appreciate the dilemma and I appreciate the problem. It is not a question that can be answered briefly. It is a question of pressing importance that has been made so by the tenor of the questions and by the shape and innuendo of the questions as they were so presented and I was attempting as quickly as possible to get the information on the table of the House.

I would much rather have preferred to have taken the time to have prepared a statement and to have presented it that way. However7 since it is the wish of the House that it be done in that manner then I will hold back on this particular item and with the House's permission I will prenare a ministerial statement and at that time I will table all the relevant information. I would have liked to have made it all available to the public today, Sir. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for LaPoile, a supplementary. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Sir.

First of all the hon. gentleman still did not anwer my question of whether .. j t I ! :

May 18, 1978 Tape 3305 PK ..,. 1 MR. NEARY: Sealand is working for charity, or if they are receiving progress payments from the Public Treasury? And would the minister when he is answering that question also tell us - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) • MR. NEAJlY: If the Premier would just stop prompting for a moment. I know the hon. the Premier is very touchy about this situation. It will all be discussed down on the golf course probably this afternoon, Sir, if it is a fine evening. PREMIER MOORES: Do you play? MR. NEARY: No.I do not play either in Antigua or in California, or at Bally 1 Haly.

I do not hold my meetings down there. PREMIER MOORES: MR. NEARY:. It would do you good, boy! Yes,it might do me good. But would the minister tell us how the minimum number of hours were arrived at? And is there any limit to the hours over and above those specified in the contract? How the minimum number of_ hours were arrived at that are included in the contract? And how many hours or is the sky the limit, specified in the contract? over and above the minimum hours MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, all of that information is here in document seven.

I think it is seven or eight or nine, I do not know. In any eventlobviously I cannot do it briefly because in helicopter service,obviously,the sky is not the limit, there is a limit in any kind of service. I would like to be able to present the information properly. I think the public deserve the information,and I would like to be able to provide it. I have it here. I am not allowed obviously.! cannot do justice to it. MR. NEARY: Table it. MR.

DOODY: But I will provide the House with that information and any other items that the gentlemen opposite have on that item, they should put on the Order Paper then so I can deal with it properly and l

May 18, 1978 Tape 3305 PK - 2 Mr. Doody: get it to the House as quickly as I possibly can. MR. NEARY: A supplementary ~uestion, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Would the hon. gentleman indicate to the House now if there is anybody keeping a record of the number of hours that these helicopters are spending aloft or have spent aloft since May, I believe, when the public tender was called? Is anybody logging the number of hours? Who is authorizing the trips? Who is authorizing the flights and so forth? Whose jurisdiction that comes under?

Is anybody keeping tabs on it in case invoices will be submitted to the Public Treasury ? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. DOODY: In light of the fact that the hon • members opposite will not let me provide the public with the information which has been asked I should really ask the hon. member to put that on the Order Paper as well.

But because of the inference that there is dereliction of duty or that there is nobody in the Department of Transportation and Communications capable of keeping track of the number of hours that helicopters are in the air I have to answer quite emphatically that certainly they are being kept track of, and certainly they are they being - MR. NEARY: By whom? MR. DOODY: _,, officially looked after. By a gentleman named Mr. O'Brien who is the Director of Transportation in the department, and by his immediate suborinate, Mr .

Simmons, whose name I mentioned here earlier, the Director of Air Operation, both gentlemen of impeccable character whom I have no doubt will be dragged across this House as other people have been during the course of this afternoon's - MR. NEARY: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. MR. NEARY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order. MR. NEARY: Your Honour during the Oral Question, Period, Sir; the Minister of Transportation and Communications read from certain documents t ~ f i I . t i . I (_ ,. ~ ' 1 '

May 18, 1978 Tape 3305 PK - 3 MR. NEARY: and my understanding of the rules of this House, Sir, is that when you quote from a document - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: - and the hon. gentleman quoted from certain documents he had in his hand before getting to the public tenders, these documents have to be tabled in the House - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: And I ask Your Honour to order the han. gentleman to table the documents. MR. W. ROWE: Do not forget your - MR. SPEAKER: The han . the Minister of Transportation and COliDIIUnications. MR. DOODY: Mr.

Speaker, these are Crown documents taken from the files of the Department of Transportation and Communications. I am under no obligation to table them unless I so desire. MR. W. ROWE: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Speaker. Mi.. w. ROWE: To that point of order ' Sir. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. w. ROWE: As I understand it the minister indicates his desire and willingness to table the documents. The only reason for not tabling Crown documents is if the minister says it is not in the public interest to do so. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Right. MR. W.

ROWE: Or it is against the public interest to do so. He has already indicated a willingness to do so, - MR. DOODY: And the desire. MR. w. ROWE: - and the desire) and that it is in the public . interest to do so . MR.·. DOODY: (Inaudible) by the Opposition. MR. w. ROWE: And he will not table the documents _ MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. w. ROWE: - in an obvious cover-up attempt by him and his colleagues, Mr. Speaker. I ·I

May 18, 1978 Tape 3305 PK - 4 MR. DOODY: Give me leave. MR. NEARY: Leaver SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. W. ROWE: And the point of order, Sir, is that the minister having ~uoted from the documents should table the documents or if they want to revert to Ministerial Statements. MR. NEARY: By leave! MR. W. ROWE: Or simply by leave of the House he can table the · documents and have a little word to say on them if he so desires. We are interested in getting these documents before the House. The minister can put his own , I will not use an adjective, Sir, his own

interpretation on the documents that he wants, we will put an

interpretation on it as welL But, Sir, there is clearly an obligation on him now to table these documents, put them on the Table of this House so we can see them. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: First of all, Sir, it is not a matter of tabling the documents~ I think, by leave of the House and by leave of the Opposition if the minister now could carry on uninterrupted to give the full story of this particular situation

.lay 13,1978 Tape iio. 3J06 AH-1 PREliiER l>IOORES: in which questions have been asked by the Opposition I am sure the minister would be only to glad to go into great detail and pass on this information. The only thing is, Sir, SOUr: HON. ME~IBERS: Oh, oh! HR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER z!OORES: -having agreed to pass on all the information which has to have explanation as well as tabling - if the Opposition war.ts the information as by innuendo they had accused us of not providing it- now that it is available to be provided in detail I would assume, Sir, the Opposition will be only too glad to hear exactly what that information is. }lR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. l-!R. SPEAKER: Tae han. member. ~;R. NEARY: Perhaps I can help the han. Premier and the hon. Minister of Transportation out a little bit because I know they have themselves boxed in, Sir.

We have such a thing in this House called a Standing Order 23 and Hr. Speaker as there exists throughout the Province an uneasy general feeling that proper safeguards do not exist for expenditures or commitment of large sums of public money on office buildings, rental of office space, helicopter and airplane contracts, public works and services- AN HON. t!El'IBER: (Inaudible) - ··· .. tm. NEA..~Y: I uove, Mr. Speaker. I move. HR. SPEAKER: I must dispose of the point of order before I hear ti1e non. gentleman 1 s :notion. I had u.ot realized what •<as going on until a moment aGo. ~!R.

NEARY: I will give the bon. gentleman an opportunity to - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The point of order before the Chair is whether the han. minister is required to table documents in his possession. I refer to }lay pages 431 and 432. This citation has been read on a nmnber of occasions this session and on previous sessions but it is the one ger:nane. "Another rule or principle of debate may be here added. '!f . ... • il r i '·

:·ray lo,l975 Tape 3306 AH-2 :•!R. SPEAKER: A minister of the Crown is not at liberty to read or quote from a dispatch or other state paper not before the House, unless he is prepared to lay it on the table." This restraint is similar- MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! l-:&1. SPEAKER: Would the han. gentleman please wait because unless one hears the matter in its entirety it is meaningless or indeed can mean the contrary to what it will in its entirety.

"This restraint is similar to the rule of evidence · t in courts of law,which prevents counsel from citing documents which have not been produced in evidence.rhe principle is so reasonable that it has not been contested; and when the objection has been made in time, it has been generally acquiesced in·. It has also been admitted that a document which has been cited au2 ht to be laid upon the table of the liouse, if it can be done without injury to the public interests:" SOdE nOll. llEcffiERS : Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: There have been a number of rulings in the House of Assembly which have cited this and stated explicitly that the only exception here,apart from private letters or private memoranda, is that when a minister makes a claim of m1at I call for shorthand,Crown privilege which is a claim that in the minister 1 s opinion it is not in the public interest to table those documents. Now when that claim is made the Chair has no authority to review the documents and to make a judgement, the «hair is not in a position of a matter being on trial and making a finding of fact.

It is submission which is immediately operative and therefore according to Hay> and to its application and our precedence, since the minister has made that claim, 1hen he is not required to table it. HR. NEARY: The minister told us he was going to table them, Sir, MR. W.N. ROWE: He did not make the claim. MR. DOODY: I did not make any claims. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I did understand and I am quite sure tilat in his last submission or in a submission the hen. minister said lf I

aay 1J,l97o Tape GO. 3306 AH-3 aR. SPEAKER: that in his opL~ion it is not in the public interest to table it. HR. NEARY: No, Mr. Speaker. No. ~1R. SPEAI<ER: Order, please! I ask the hon. gentleman whether I heard him correctly or not. MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, what I have said is that the documents from which I quoted various unrelated sentences and bits and pieces, figures and numbers, unless they are in thier entirety would not be in the public interest so to do because they could very well be misinterpreted.

And I want to present to the House, to the press and to the public the full and complete picture of this particular tenaer call. And those particular litte bits and pieces that I quoted - now if the House wants me to read all these documents then certainly I will lay them on the table of the House but I was prepared to present the whole picture, Sir, and until such times as the House is prepared to accept them I do not ~hink it wou1d be in the public interest to just lay little bits and pieces on the table of the House. tiR. NEARY: Lay it all on the table. HR._ SPEAKE_R:_ Order, please!

I have made a ruling that once a minister makes that claim it is out of my hands. I_£ he does not· make the claim he must table it, if he does make the claim it is out of my hands. I cannot require him l'IR. NEl\.RY: \,'ell, :1r. Speaker, I would like to give the hon. gantl~an an apportunity to put the documents on the

May 18, 1978 Tape 3307 EC - 1 HR. NEARY: table of the House and to have this matter thrashed out and I would like to help • I the bon. the Premier out. MR. DOODY: I will when I get a ministerial statement together. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am making a motion now under Standing Order 23. Mr. Speaker, there exists throughout the Province - MR. HICKMAN: Is that bv leRve? MR. NEARY: No, it is not by leave, it is Orders of the Day. MR. WHITE: That is right. You do not have to have leave. ' MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Upon the calling of Orders of the Day, the bon. gentleman is now making a submission under Standing Order 23. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, there exists throughout the Province an uneasy general feeling that proper safeguards do not exist for expenditures or commitments of large sums of public money on office buildings, rental of office space, helicopter and airplane contracts, public works and services.

Therefore, Sir, I move that the regular order of business of this House be interrupted to discuss this urgent matter, and the advisability of setting up a Select Committee of the House to examine this whole matter and recommend whatever steps are necessary to safeguard the Public Treasury and eliminate the present feeling of uneasiness over careless use or possible misuse of hard earned taxpayer dollars in these departments. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: Agree with it? You a~reed with it. . ....

May 18, 1978 Tape 3307 EC - 2 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! Under this procedure I am not . I ·:! required, actually, to hear any arguments and I think that I shall continue on that basis. .. I ! Under Standing Order 23 there are a number of things in which for this motion to become operative, for it to be in order, have to be identified by the Chair. One of them is the urgency of debate and then, equally operative with that must be whether there will be within the reasonably near future, an opportunity to debate the matter.

In other words, the matter being urgent does not put it immediately operative, nor even the urgency of debate. Once this has been conceded, the Chair has also then to ask itself whether there will be :. f in the reasonably foreseeable future, an opportunity to debate this matter, and with the Budget Debate on the Order Paper and the certainly reasonable expectation that it will be called within the next few days - it is my expectation; I do not know, the Address in Reply being there as well - then certainly it would appear that there will be an opportunity to discuss these matters in the quite near future.

That being so, I cannot accept it as in order ~ The hon. member. I MR. NEARY: I wonder, Sir, if Your Honour cannot find it within the rules to allow this motion to be debated, could we debate it by leave? Would the han. gentleman who ~ants to give information to the House and to the people - could we have it by leave that we would debate this matter? MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman has asked me a question and I would be most happy to answer it. It has been suggested by hon. members opposite that

!l ay 18 , 1978 Tape 33 0 7 IB -3 ~! R. DOODY: I deliver the documents in the form of a ministerial statement rather than in the form that I wanted to do them today and that I am quite prepared to do. So there is really no need to gee involved in leave or anything else. I will p re pare a statement, a rather lengthy statement that will outline in detail every document that is in this rather voluminous file which I took from the registry of the Department of Transportation and Communications and make it available to the House in the very near future. ~R .

SPEAKER: I understand that the hon. gentleman does not have leave. }IR . NEARY: Too b ad! Cover up. ~! R. SPE AKER: ~otion 8. Motion, the bon. the Minister of Tourism to introduce a ~ill, "An Act To Amend The Wild Life Act," carried. (Bill No. 43) On motion, Bill No. 43 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. . I I J r ' . . t '·

May 18, 19 7 8 Tape 3308 IB-1 Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Welfare Institutions Licensing Act To Ensure Greater Emphasis On The Inspection Of Welfare Institutions In The Future." (Bill No. 22) MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Recreation and Rehabilitation. MR. HICKEY: Hr. Speaker, this could be classed I suppose by the look of the bill as minor changes but I would suggest to Your Honour very important changes.

The main purpose of the bill is to draw attention to the fact that the licensed boarding homes will undergo great scrutiny and inspection in future more 1 than before, and also to replace the Licensing Board which has been operating for something more than a year now. That board, Mr. Speaker, is charged with the responsibility of investigating, inspecting and licensing private boarding homes in the Province. It is being changed now to an authority. The composition of the board is the same under the amendment, under the change which will be referred to as an authority.

The same number of members who can do the same thing with the exception of placing the emphasis on the inspection aspect of those homes, not only, Mr. Speaker, before such homes are licensed but thereafter during the operation of such homes. Ron. gentlemen will recall the tragedy that we had a year and a half or more ago and as a result of that a number of things came to the surface, a number of inadequacies in the boarding home system. And from that date on, Mr. Speaker, this government has been striving to improve that situation to ensure that (

a) the homes that would be licensed would be constructed properly, would be inspected regularly and operated in the proper manner to ensure first and foremost the safety of the inhabitants, not to mention,of ' I

~fay 18, 19 7 8 Tape 3308 IB-2 HR. HICKEY: course, the service and the caring for those people. The change here in legislation t, . is just another step forward in that direction. And as I said at the outset a most important aspect of it is to draw attention to the fact by those people who are affected by this legislation that the real emphasis and the most important aspect is indeed on the inspection, in the first instance, the licensing based on the inspection and the inspection which would be ongoing after the home is licensed. I have much pleasure in moving second reading. MR.

SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile . !1R. NEARY: Ur. Speaker, we support the bill, Sir. It is not really all that earth shattering, it merely provides for the appointment now, an amendment to replace the existing members of the Licensing Board and unfortunately, Sir, the members of the board are still officials of the minister's department.

There is no independant person on the board, nobody from outside of government and I was hoping that if the Licensing Board for welfare institutions which are really, Sir, homes as han. gentlemen know, homes for senior citizens~for the infirm, for the handicapped and ex patients of the Waterford Hospital and so forth and so on. There are quite a number of these homes, a couple in my han. friend's district there in Conception Bay South and there are quite a few down around the Goulds area, in that part of Newfoundland, part of the Avalon Peninsula.

This bill, Sir, probably came about primarily due to the tragedy that occurred in the Goulds there, I believe, it was the Christmas before last, was it not? MR. NOLAN: The Chafe home I' yes.

!{a y 18 , 19 7 8 Tap e 3308 IB-3 HR. NEARY: The Chafe Boarding Rome down in Petty Harbour, down near the Goulds. And I believe, Sir, ever since the minister and the depa rtment, ~(l rightly so, are trying to beef up the licensing and the inspections of these homes. There hav e been quite a few changes in I I ~ I

May 18, 1978 Tape No. 3309 JM - 1 MR. NEARY: the last year or so. The rates for instance have been increased. I do not know if they have been increased to the level where the homes can now afford - Is the hon. gentleman listening to me or is the hon. incompetent Minister of Health interfering ,in the - I am trying to get the attention of the hon. gentleman here. The king of Duckworth Street, I am trying to get that hon. gentleman's attention. Not the King of Kensington the king of Duckworth Street. Is the hon. gentleman listening to what I am saying? !'1K. W.N.

ROW!!:: He is going to be down there a lot I am. s.w:e. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, _ I do not know if I am talkin~ to myself or - MR. HICKEY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order. MR. HICKEY: It would not make much difference if the hon. gentleman was talking to himself. The kind of jargon and garbage that we are listening to here, unparliamentary remarks. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! I think it is probably a difference of opinion. MR.

NEARY: Now that I have the attention of the king of Duckworth Street I would like to ask the hon. minister if the rates for homes for these people have now reached - MR. RICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I am fascinated by this Duckworth Street bit. I rose yesterday, Your Honour. I think we should really allow the hon. gentleman to explain this very interesting comment about Duckworth Street or is he talking about Portugal Cove Road' MR. SPEAKER: Order please! Order please!

The principal of this bill certainly is related to the desirability of amending the Welfare Institution Licensing Act in order to ensure greater emphasis on the inspection thereof and unless there is such an institution on Duckworth Street to which hon. members are referring then it would be out of order to discuss matters totally foreign to the bill.

May 18, 1978 Tape No. 3309 JM- 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, there maybe institutions, there maybe welfare homes on Duckworth Street and there maybe some on Portugal • r Cove Road and there maybe some on Bell Island but it does not make I any difference if the hon. gentleman wants to enter into debate on either. It is perfectly okay with me. MR. HICKEY: (Inaudible) the hon. gentleman made. MR. W.N. ROWE: There is another institution on Duckworth Street. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, there are all kinds of institutions on Duckworth Street. MR. W.N. ROWE: Very important ones. MR.

HICKEY: Yes, according to the rumours I am hearing. MR. NEARY: Rumours the bon. gentleman is hearing about what? MR. HICKEY: Speak away, MR. NEARY: Go ahead, Mr. Speaker. The hon. gentleman, Mr. Speaker, in 1972 in this hon. House made wild irresponsible charges and allegations, Sir, that backfired on him and now if the hon. gentleman has any more to make now is the hon. gentleman's time to do it. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! Order please!

I will now direct both bon. gentlemen that the debating of this bill does not give them the parliamentary right to engage in personal debate on matters not related to the bill or to personal differences of opinion or former events or former debates and matters in which they might be in conflict. Both hon. members and all hon. members only have the right to debate what is related to Bill No. 22 and they will have to find another kind of motion on which to speak if they wish to engage in other matters of a personal nature on which there are differences of opinion between them. The hon. member. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I would think, Sir, I am not quite sure now but there used to be welfare homes on Duckworth Street. I know there -. are some over here by the Newfoundland Hotel on LeMarchant Road, in that area and I believe there are a number of institutions on Duckworth Street and the hon. gentleman maybe familiar with these institutions, I do not know.

May 18, 1978 Tape No. 3309 JM- 3 MR. W.N. ROWE: He is going to be familiar with them. MR. NEARY: But if the hon. gentleman is not,perhaps in the foreseeable future the hon. gentleman may become familiar with some of these institutions. MR. HICKEY: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if Your Honour, could you ask the hon. gentleman, Sir, to restrain himself so that I can be heard in silence. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member has the right to speak with interruption. MR.

NEARY: I do hope, Sir, that when the hon. gentleman is in the Duckworth Street area in the foreseeable future, no doubt he will have occasion to visit there, that the hon. gentleman might drop in and take a look at some of these boarding homes in the area to see that their license have been issued under the strict regulations that are laid down by the minister's department under this bill. And, Mr. Speaker, I started to ask the minister a question and what probably got me sidetracked was the Minister of Health up whispering in the minister's ear.

I was,as~ing the minister if the rates have now reached the level in these boarding homes so that the owners can hire security people after hours, twenty-four hours a day, ' "' ~ '

May 18, 1978 Tape 3310 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: especially from 4:00 o'clock in the afternoon until,say, 8:00 o'clock in the morning. Are they now able to hire • I with the rates that they are being paid sufficient staff to ensure . r ! that we will not have a repeat of the fire in the Goulds the Christmas before last? And would the hon. gentleman also take note of my point that somebody from outside of government other than the officials of the minister's department should be put on this Licencing Board?

I • J And perhaps the hon. gentleman can tell us how much beefing up is being done on the Welfare Licencing regulations with regard rates, inspections, food served in the homes and so forth, give us a kind of a general report of how the situation now stands with these licenced boarding homes that are so important and where people , in a lot of cases, have to spend the rest of their lives. Is the minister satisfied now that the owners of these homes are doing a good job? In most cases I would assume that they are.

Are they being paid sufficiently well that they can take care of the needs of the residents of these homes? So perhaps the minister could give us a little updating on just what is happening now in connection with these so-called welfare institutions? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Ferryland. MR. C. POWER: A brief word on this bill and a question for the minister. There is great concern in my district and in the district that takes in Kilbride and Conception Bay, and certainly in the lower end of Ferryland district. There are a great number of small nursing homes and small private care homes.

And there has been a great deal-since that very tragic Chafe fire in Petty Harbour, in the Goulds - there have been a great deal of renovations and new restrictions placed on people who own private nursing homes and the like. And there is also a great deal of concern expressed by many of those very small private owners as to what is the future of those small private homes within the framework of the total care of aged people within the Province.

Some of them are expressing some concern as to whether or not the government has an intention or a philosophy ,if you want, of weeding out or eventually eliminating all those small private homes that are in my district, in Conception Bay South and in Kilbride, and, I suppose, in other parts of

May 18, 1978 Tape 3310 Pk - 2 Mr. Pawer: the Province . My own feeling is that those small private homes, a.lthough they may not provide a quality as great as in the Boyles Home or some of the other major homes within St.

John's , in the larger cities, but they do supply a type of home care for the aged,in particular, that allows for an individual personal contact and very often older people find that very satisfying So I would like for the minister when he gets up to speak again if he would sort of reaffirm the government's intention or at least its policy on how it intends to deal with these small private homes in our areas in the immediate future. Does the government have any intention of weeding out or eliminating the small private homes that provide home care for many of the aged in my district and in other districts? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: I rise very briefly, Mr. Speaker, to ask a question or two about the bill because here is something that we have to be particularly careful about in many instances.

In view of the fact that while lsome considerable attention has been directed towards these homes - : brought about tragically , I am sorry to say , by the terrible fire in the Goulds on Christmas last, I believe, but the fact is we have in these homes many senior citizens, some of whom are forgotten by their alleged loved ones, some of whom I have heard call to see some of these people to sign their old aged pension cheques and then ~o off and leave them again after collecting the money. MR. RIDEOUT: Go away! Is that right? MR. NOLAN: It has happened in hospitals here i n town, and things like that.

But it is just shocking to see how callous some people can be. In reference to some of the people who have really paid their dues, as I believe they say in show business, and deserve a little more passion, attention, understanding - SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

~y 18, 1978 Tape 3310 Pk - 3 Mr. Nolan: than they are given , you cannot legislate love or care, compassion and so on. It cannot be done. So it is not even to merel y blame the state or the minister or anybody else for the neglect, it is o~ten times exhibited by some relatives who are all too interested sometimes in funn .eling their loved ones away ou~ of sight ..an~ out of nrl:nd. And in this re,gard may I say that many of the proprietors of some of the homes with which my bon. friend for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) and the Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation are cer~ainly familiar have - and I just had a meeting with some of them recentl y, in fact, who came to visit with me, who really care very, verv much about the people who have been assigned to their care, t i R I ' , .. I l

.,. •I ;ray 1G,l97a Tape 3311 1£.-l and are really concerned by the type of homes that are operated, how they are operated. Oftentimes we go from one extreme to the other. ~here were some areas of real neglect I am sure prior to the Chafe home fire. Now in some instances,and I am certainly not stating this as a fact, but I am told that in some cases perh~ps officialdom may now be swinging the pendulum all the way to the other end so we have to be careful that the bureaucracy is not such that it is going to make it difficult and untenable to operate some of these homes.

Now the minister would have more detailed information on this,of course,than I. The other thing that I am concerned about always is some rehabilitation for these people, some activity. The Feople L• the homes cannot always provide it. _!hey can provide very little in some instances although I i~ve know of cases where people who have a substantial amount of land have had some of the people who were there assist in farming and any uumber of other things which gives them some kind of a purpose, some kind o~ a - I am sure my friend is familiar with some of them- a reason something to do every day.

What does a person do? --- - I believe,as I understand it the board to which we are now referring is going to be made up totally of civil servants? MR. NEARY: It always was. hR. NOLAN: Why is this a biblical writ? MR. NEARY: No, no it should be changed. ~!.R. NOI...tu'l: l1aybe my hon. friend would consider not just sticking to Iris guns on this thing. \~hy not make provision for someone outside the Civil Service?

I am sure the minister knows of many competent and capable people outside-the Civil Service who could have some real imput into these homes, either one of the home owners or if not someone who is associated in almost any spnere of activity throughout the · community 1 unless there is some very, very good reason why it would be injurious to the people who we are attempting to help assist and serve

;_:. 1lay 10,1973 Tape No. 3311 All-2 in this particular instance and why this bill is being brought in. If it is not firu that you must have those wl10 are already in the employ of the Civil Service and if you feel that it could be beneficial and good ~•ell 1 vhy not take a look at it right now and bring in someone outside of the bureaucracy. I think it would add to the board. I am sure there are many people of the minister's acquaintance and of the acquaintance of members of this House who would be g:aJ to serve and help or assist in this regard.

And by the way, I do not know when the Gushue Report is coming out but I am told by some people who have made application to the minister's •• department for these homes,and so on,that they are being given the -what they sometimes refer to as the excuse, that the Gushue Report. ~ow thev have been hearing about the Gushue Report for some time. Maybe the minister expected to have it a month or two ago, I do not know. But I think that these people who ·have these homes and so on,or would like to start the homes, deserve an explanation. When is t.le Gushue Report going to be made available?

Could we possibly see some imput from the community within j· the board that the minister hopes to set up? This is a very difficult task the minister has in the overall administration in some of these Homes and I would hope that we could take a good hard look at it not only in this bill,but in other debates that will no doubt arise here in this ilouse- t;o see what if any imput we can have to help and assist these people who are in the homes and to help those wi:Jo have the homes and help those who are in there in any way that we possibly can.

So let us start by not making it appear that He :1ave a bureaucratic board that is designed to protect the department or the minister or the government or t~e me1:1bers of the House of Assembly or anything like that. God knows,you know,what happens in the public mind oftentimes in reference to officialdom. So whay not take a look at it? Unless there is some very, very good reason why it will not work let us put a layman on the board. l{R, SPEAKER: If the hon. minister speaks now he closes the debate. The hon. minister,

Tape ~o . 3311 AJ:- 3 l'JR. HICKEY: :i.r. Speaker, I will attempt to anS\Wer some of the points raised by my bon. friend from Concepcion .Bay South (Hr. Nolan) and my bon . friend fro m Ferryland (Hr . Power) first because t hey did raise some - MR. NOI.A.l'>l : I cannot hear tile bon . minister. ~ :\ \ MR. HICXEY: I said , :.tr. Speaker, I will att empt to answer t he ~ l , • I . ~ questions .;r concerns by my hon . friend from C4ncepcio n Bay Sou t h (Hr. lfolan) and my hon. colleague from Ferryland Otr. Power ) first becaus e they raised some rather importan t are as and certain ly areas ·which are t ' I: u ff ., i ll '

May 18, 1978 Tape 3312 IB-1 HR. HICKEY: of concern to all of us. So far as the Gushue Report is concerned,in the first instance we should have had it a month ago or a month an~-a-half ago. However, Mr. Speaker, as I am sure hon. members appreciate. that gentleman is very busy and I understand that one of the problems he has is that he has to sit in court with the other judges which does not necessarily allow him the same kind of time as compared to some other judges.

He has communicated with my department to the effect that he is proceeding with the greatest of speed and should have the report to us during the month of June. When the member for Conception Bay South (Mr . Nolan) says that the answer is given people applying for licenses-or that they are given the excuse about the report. we are awaiting the report I can assure my hon. friend and I appreciate that that is sometimes the way it is looked upon~as an excuse. But I can assure him that it is not an excuse.

It is deliberate in the sense that there is a freeze on licensing of boarding homes until we receive the Gushue ~eport. We must take into account. Mr. Speaker, that the people who open licensed boarding homes do . so with the expressed purpose in mind of it being a paying proposition and I do not think anyone quarrels with that.

There has to be, certainly for the costs that are involved in setting up a boarding home,and there are high costs involved, there has to be a reasonable guarantee, not a legal guarantee in the strict sense of the word but there must be a reasonable guarantee that they are going to make both ends meet and probably make a small profit from the operation. To license boarding homes when, in fact,we do not know what the report is going to contain , ..

;.[a y 1 8. 19 7 8 Tape 3312 IB-2 MR. HICKEY: or indeed if we might even have to remove patients from certain homes or for that matter close out some homes would~to . say the least,be irresponsible. Or indeed the report might contain,because it is covering the whole spectrum,a recommendation of new direction in which to follow in caring for the aged and the infirm which might well mean a decreasing of licensed boarding homes as opposed to an increase.

That being the case we would have to provide some kind of security to those homes which are already in existence and that are already complying with the standards and have gone to great cost to meet the standards that are now being set. S 0 I assure rrry han. friend it is no excuse, it is a deliberate move by my department to hopefully keep things in reasonably good shape until such time as we get that report so that we do not make any wrong decisions by licensing new homes.

My understanding is, at least since I have been minister, that there probably have been two homes licensed where there had been a commitment and where they had been ongoing before the Chafe fire,for that matter. With regard to the activities that are provided or developed for those people who live in those homes, I need not do any more than remind my han. friend for Conception Bay South (Mr.

Nolan) that right in his own area which he is I am sure quite familiar with, a social center which is a credit to those people and which certainly was brought about by the initiative of the people who own and operate the boarding homes. And some of the patients,indeed,who live there worked on it and are part and package of that whole programme and it is working very nicely. The whole question of care, Mr. Speaker, is one which naturally we are concerned about and we do the best we can. There are 1: !; ..• u ·'

May 18, 1978 Tape No. 3313 JM - 1 MR. HICKEY: · rigid inspections. I should point out to my hon. friends that there are two types of licensed boarding homes. One, the ones which come directly under my department in terms of filling ·- _of course, they all come under my department from the point of view of inspection and licensing but in terms of filling those homes some are filled by Waterford Hospital, ex-psychiatric patients, and the others are people who are sick, infirm or just old, agecf people who have no place to call home and who want accommodations. So there are two distinct areas there.

We have in some of those homes bed care patients and I might say, Mr. Speaker, that in some homes we are concerned insofar as the overall situation is concerned with regards to proper care, the capability of people to handle as many patients as indeed they might have. I think it is fair to say,and again in resoonse to my friend and colleague from Ferryland,that there is no desire on the part of my department to place into jeopardy the investments made by a number of those people. In the first instance building a home and having it licensed.

In the second case modernizing and improving based on more recent standards as laid down by my department. Those people have gone into a fair investment to stay in business and to live within the regulations that have been recently laid down. I can assure my hon. friend that there is no intention on the part of my department or the government to place in jeopardy that investment or in any way to create problems for those people. In fact, Mr. Speaker, that is one of the problem areas, trying to make sure that we do not place someone in a financial jam so to speak.

If a home is such that it cannot be renovated to the extent that is required,then we just might reach a point where we have to close that home. But I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that if and when that time comes I am sure that as always government will not be blind~ to the fact that (

a) their is a livelihood involved for a couple of people and (

b) there is an investment which we must look at though we tread very cautiously in that particular area. As I said we do i I

!1ay 18, 1978 Tape No. 3313 JM - 2 ~m.. HICKEY: the very best we can with our inspectors and with all of our people, our social workers to ensure that the level or the standard of care for those people is nothing short of excellent. I cannot give hon. members an absolute guarantee that it happens in every home. I would hope, Mr.Speaker, it does.

I can certainly give hon. gentlemen one guarantee though,that in any case where it does not,and where I have . an opportunity based on some facts where it is not,I will not hesitate to pull that license off their wall . ~ in a hurry because let us face it,there can be no disagreement between any of us when it comes to, as my hon. friend mentioned, you cannot legislate affection or care in the strict sense of the word. I think we all agree with that. That is true. But certainly through legislation we can go a long way to make sure that you get as close to perfection as indeed you possibly can.

I' In any event,I assure my hon. friend that we are very conscious of that particular problem and we do everything we can to ensure that the level of care is,as I said,as near excellent as one can get. As I said some of the bed care patients might well have to be moved to other locations.

I have attempted to act responsibly and I know that I have created some temporary problems for some people who have boarding homes,but I have informed my staff that unless there is some very real emergencies that I do not want to see any bed care patients admitted to private licensed boarding homes but rather that I would prefer to see them in the more institutional type facilities such as the Inter-Faith Home, Hayles Home and homes of that nature. I believe, Mr.

Speaker, that one direction we do want to move in, I do not know how quick we can move there or I do not know how far we will get because there are problems inherent in going in this direction,and that is the desired situation would be to have in licensed boarding homes throughout the Province purely and totally ambulatory patients or patients who require limited care. Certainly, I do not think it is desirable to have bed care patients unless you have a fairly large and sophiscated type institution

May 18, 1978 Tape 3314 IB-1 MR. HICKEY: where there are nurses on staff and all the rest that goes with it. I think we have to ensure in the first instance the safety and the general well-being of those people and in order to do that I am afraid that sometimes we might have to make decisions which are 1 indeed,not very popular. But be that as it may1 we will certainly pursue the question aggressively along the lines that I have just outlined. In regards to the question raised by the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) insofar as the security staff are concerned, it is too bad, M~.

Soeaker, that the hon. gentleman does not follow very much what goes on in the House. He tells me that he has difficulty getting my attention but certainly that was not so. I heard what he said all along. If he had been following the debate that has gone on here on a few occasions he would have known that during my estimates on one occasion and on another occasion I went into great detail to outline that there is security staff in those homes from eleven to seven in the morning, that those security staff members are paid for by the government.

In the first instance paid for by the boarding home owners and the boarding home owners are then compensated by my department. So that the whole question he raises about the rates being such so as to allow someone to break even or make a profit because they have to hire security is totally unfounded. It does not really enter into the picture at all because government picks up the payroll of those people. I think, Mr. Speaker, that is about all the areas that were raised with the exception,of course 1 of the question of boarding homes as raised by the member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) in his usual,very usual - ' • 1, ~ ' I

Hay 18, 1978 Tape 3314 IB-2 HR. HICKEY: I will not say unusual - but very usual way when be talks about boarding homes on Duckworth Street. I do not know anyt .hing about boarding homes on Duckworth Street, Mr. • I . I Speaker. We have no boarding homes on Duckworth Street , We have no boarding homes on Portugal Cove Road, we have no boarding homes in a number of areas. I do not know what the temperature on Duckworth Street is today. They told me yesterday it was warm down there. But yesterday, Mr. Speaker, the temperature was equally high on Portugal Cove Road an~ several other areas of the city.

I really do not know what possesses the han. gentleman to interject with such comments. HR. NEARY: It is going to get higher and warmer. HR. HICKEY: Now fhat is very interesting, Mr. Speaker. We hear about the temperature increasing and getting warmer again. It is also going to get warmer in a number of areas in the Province and,in fact, Mr. Speaker, it might even reach a boiling point on Portugal Cove Road . MR. NEARY: Is that right? MR. HICKEY: That is right. That is right. That happens to be in my constituency, God's country, Mr. Speaker. Portugal Cove Road is God's country. MR.

NEARY: Some new voters the hon. gentleman was trying to ret . MR. HICKEY: I simply - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The principle of the particular bill is being discussed at the present time. The han. minister. and . suspicious information. Now I know what you were ll ; No wonder the Premier was getting false attempting. i . :~

Hay 18, 1978 Tape 3314 IB-3 HR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I was attempting to get to the questions raised by my han. friend. I answered the other questions which I said took precedent over anything the hon. gentleman said. I am answering the questions,Your Honour, in order of priority and now I am trying to reflect on the comments of Duckworth Street and I think I made some on Portugal Cove Road. I do not wish, Mr. Speaker, to lower the level of debate in . ~ ; this House by speaking further - MR. NEARY: A.B. Walsh has nothing down on Portugal Cove Road. HR. HICKEY: Ah, here we hear about A.B. Walsh again. MR.

NEARY: Do they have coloured television sets or anything on Portugal Cove Road? MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I do not know where he has got coloured television sets but that is his own business, I suggest. We covered the matter of coloured television sets last year, Your Honour. If the han. gentleman wishes to go into that again or indeed, Mr. Speaker, if he wishes to go into the whole question of A.B. Walsh let him name the day. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. HICKEY: I am only too delighted to go into that. MR.

SPEAKER: I do have to remind han. members that c. the Chair is bound by the rules of the House and that r F. is that the bill under discussion

May 18, 1978 Tape 3315 PK - l MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): can be debated in terms of its principle. The hon. Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation. MR. HICKEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Fine, so we got that out of the way. All I was attempting to do,Your Honour , was say that I have no jurisdiction over boarding homes in such places as Duckworth Street or Portugal Cove Road or any of those areas. I am talking about this bill.

This bill talks about, this bill refers to licenced boarding homes for the aged, the i nfirm, the sick, what have you, it has nothing at all to do with some of the foreign areas interjected by the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary). But some people do get on thin ice, Mr. Speaker, occassionally. I suggest that the han. gentleman is, and he might drown one of those days, but I will wait - MR. NEARY: The han. gentleman tried that one time before - MR. HICKEY: I will wait and the hon. gentleman done his job before. And we will not go into that debate unless the hon. gentleman wishes - MR.

NEARY: You still h~e not resigned. MR. HICKEY: Anytime the hon. gentleman wishes to bring out the Mifflin report I am ready to bring it out and read it . MR, NEARY! The government street king should have resigned before. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, you know, it is next to impossible to stay on a subject with the hon. gentleman. I am trying my best. ·~ Let me end on a pleasant note, Your Honour, and say that everything possible is being done for the senior citizens, the sick, the infirm in this Province. Everything possible is being done, and that will continue, Mr.

Speaker, despite the fact that the hon. gentleman can interject with frivolous items and, you know, can get very funny, and comical. In reading the bill, Your Honour, I do not see where it is impossible to appoint people from the community under the old section, under the old bill, the one we are amending, I think, it is spelled out who would be on the Committee, but I do not see where it is spelled out here. And the precedent is already set. The record

May 18, 1978 Tape 3315 PK ~ 2 Mr. Hickey: is already set by this administration that it · favours placing people from the community at large on boards and authorities and whatnot. That is an innovation, Mr. Speaker, that this government takes credit for, not the hon. gentleman opposite. Mr. Speaker, I have much pleasure in moving second reading. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Welfare Institutions Licencing Act To Ensure Greater Emphasis On The Inspection Of Welfare Institutions In The Future", read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently, by leave. Carried. MR.

HICKMAN: Motion 11, Bill No. 20 Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Conflict Of Interest Act, 1973." (Bill No. 20). MR. SPEAKER: (DR. COLLINS) The hon. the Minister of Finance. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, ,the principle of the bill is a very ~ ' restricted one and it is set forth in the explantory notes, that this r amendment is to give the Minister of Financ .e the right to suspend unpaid member of a board, the boards being those set forth in

Schedule A of the 4ct, if he or she fails to file their annual return under The Conflict Of Interest Act. For the information of the House, or to remind the House, the agencies referred to in this bill, and I hasten to add that the bill before this House has nothing to do with hon. members of the House, but only these agencies referred to in

Schedule A. It is the Civil Service Commission, The Board Of Commissioners Of Public Utilities, The Ombudsman, Cl~n, Air, Water, and Soil Authority, The Newfoundland Liquor Commission, The Workmen's Compensation Board, Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, Newfoundland Industrial Development Corporation Board, The Permanent Human Rights Commission, The Corporation and Board ref~rred to in The Newfoundland Municipal Financing Corporation Act, The St. John's Housing Corporation, Newfoundland Fisheries Board, The Newfoundland Fisheries Development Authority, Corner Brook Housing, The Farm

~y 18, 1978 Tape No. 3316 JM- 1 MR. HICKMAN: , Development Loan Board, the Fisheries Loan Board, the Co-operative Development Loan Board, the Industrial Development Loan Board, the Newfoundland and Labrador Rural Electricity Authority, the Harmond Corporation, the St. John's Metro Board, the Provincial PlanninR Board and any board under the Rent Restrictions Act and the Teachers'Educational Loan Board and the Teachers'Housing Loan Board.

These and these only are the agencies that are referred to in this amendment and in some instances the members of the board are unpaid and there is a requirement under the act that they must file their return annually with the Auditor General but there is no real enforcement teeth in the provision of the act, in the act as it relates to these people. I hasten to add that we have had no real problem todate but it is a housekeeping, for want of a better word, amendment brought to my attention ~y officials so that there can be at all times in the future effective enforcement of the provisions of the act.

I move second reading. MR. SPEAKER(DR. COLLINS): The han. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman indicated to the House, Sir, that this conflict of interest act, Bill No. 20 does not apply to members of the House of Assembly granted but it does give the Rouse an opportunity to sort of look at the conflict of interest act in a sort of a broader sense. Then any amendment to the act, Sir, would give us that right as long as we stay within th~ principle of the bill.

Here we are talking about conflict of interest as far as volunteers, people who are not paid who are on government agencies and so forth and the minister is bringing in a law making it compulsory for these people to file their conflict of interest statements or be thrown off the boards. That is really what it amounts to. Now I do not know if that is going to backfire or not. I do not know if because of this bill that the government will find it difficult to get people to serve on boards and government agencies and _crown corporations and so forth because these people may not want to disclose their interests.

They are in most instances asked to do these jobs voluntarily and I believe it is incumbent upon the government II j

!1ay 18, 1978 Tape No. 3316 JM- 2 MR. NEARY: to screen these people to make sure that - and it is very easy to determine this I suppose,to make sure that they are not doing business with the government. They may own companies, Mr. Speaker, that are completely far removed from any goings on in government and could not be in any way associated with doing business with the government. I mean,the government is going to limit itself to the number of people that they can draw on to put on Crown corporations and boards and so forth. The government itself should be able to screen people, that is what I am saying.

The government should be able to screen these people to see if they are doing business with the government and then not put them on the board to put them in an embarrassing position,but to force them to file a conflict of interest statement and these people may not want to disclose their interests - I know personally I have no problem at all in disclosing my interest, I have a mortgaged home and I~ve a building lot on Portugal Cove Road as the hon. Minister of Rehabilitation was just trying to tell the House, just down, let me see where it is, almost down to Windsor Lake. MR.

W.N·.ROWE: What "do you have that for? MR. NEARY: Well I may sell my house and build a house down there. I do not know. MR. W.N. ROWE: Country gentleman. I always knew he was a country gentleman. MR. NEARY: I am a country gentleman. So I have no hesitation at all in filing my conflict of interest. That is the only thing I am the owner of in this world but there are people who have all kinds of investments in companies and so on and so forth and they do not want this to be made known and yet these people might be able to provide very valuable assistance on boards and corporations and so forth .

So the government, I believe, are going to restrict themselves to the number of people that they can draw on when in actual fact,I believe~the government itself could police the situation without

May 18 , 1978 Tape No. 3316 JM - 3 MR. NEARY: making a law, without bringing in a piece of legislation. The government itself could screen these people before the appointments are made to make sure that they are not doing business with the government and then appoint these people to various boards and so on. I would like to hear the minister's views on that because there is a weakness in this thing that you maybe able to get some good men who may not want to disclose their interests. !-!R. R. MOORES: That is t'"ight. I~ a r: i t :;; ; " I

~lay 18, 1973 Tape 3317 IB-1 HR. NEARY: I do not know why the bill was necessary in the first place. Is there now a situation where there are people that the minister feels are in conflict of inte-rest who will not file their conflict of interest statement? Is ( ; that the reason behind it? I mean 1 these people are volunteers. They are not being paid and,obviousl~ I do not think the government would condone for one moment putting a man in a position where he is doing business with, say, the Newfoundland Hydro and at the same time is a member of the Board of the Newfoundland Hydro.

I do not think the government would condone that. Now,in that case the man if he wants to stay on the board,maybe,should file his conflict of interest statement. But all these other people who are on there who do no business with Newfoundland Hydro, who do no business with the government should not be forced to file their conflict of interest statement. I do not believe that was the intention or the spirit of the Conflict of Interest Act in the beginning. I would like to hear the minister's reasons on these few remarks. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. ~1R. W.

ROWE: Unless somebody on the other side wants to speak, Sir, I want to say one or two words, pick up where my hon. colleague left off. He is onto something there you know. I mean it is a good point. Anybody who takes any money from Her Majesty's Treasury needs to file conflict of interest information. There is no doubt about that. Nobody is protesting that in any way, shape or form, it must be done.

Anybody who is under the employ i of the government or receives money from the government by way of honorariums or per diem allowances and so on and so forth,certainly let them file their conflict of interest forms filled out with the appropriate information.

!fay 18, 1978 Tape 3317 I:il-2 J:IR. W. ROWE: Otherwise,let them stay off the board or stay out of the employ of the government.

But where somebody is on a board on a purely voluntary basis and received nothing except,perhaps,out of pocket expenses~we are into something approaching a dilemna because first of all, it is possible I do not think my han. friend mentioned this, he might have - but it is possible for a person to be in an influential position on a board and may be doing business with the government or with that board or agency or something operated under that board and able to put himself into a position where he can get some favours or benefits from it.

Certainly,we should know something about that as a matter of course and there should be some recourse against such a person if he does not provide the information. But that is one horn of the dilemna. The other horn of the dilemna ' is that people who are, particularly people in business and people who have substantial holdings who may want to devote a certain amount of their time to voluntary work on government agencies and government board i , may not want the whole world to know what they are doins, what they have done nor should they be required to do so. So I do not know what the answer to it is.

I think the minister is correct to bring in this legialatiou if for no other reason than it stimulates some debate and provokes some thought on the subject. Maybe the solution to the problem is to have two categories of forms filed with the Auditor General, those which are made public which would include anybody who receives any recompense from the government by way of per diem or by way of salary or wages and there might be another category of conflict of interest statements which are not public

~fay 18, 1978 Tape 3317 IB-3 MR. W. ROHE : which are given to the Auditor General and he keeps them confidential. Now you sa~what does that achieve~ Well,it achieves - the person who is putting in his conflict of interest statement knows that the Auditor General will at least know.

He is a defender of the public purse, a servant of this House, the most important,perhaps,servant of this House who is not a member of the House or sitting in the House as the people around the Table do, the most important servant outside of this House, Sir, protecting the interests of the House and the Province and the Treasury - at least he would know I· if there was any conflict of interest and he might go to the person and say, Look my advice to you is to get off this board because you know you may be in trouble because there is a conflict of interest here. .

But this would not, as my bon. friend from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) has said, this kind of a procedure then would not have the inhibiting effect which an open public statement of conflict of interest might have on a great number of our people in society who do not

.:. :lay 18,1978 Tape iio . 3318 A::-1 MR.W.ROWE: want all their private business to be made public to the world at large but do want very much to devote some of their time or a lot of their time in a voluntary capacity on government agencies and government boards.

I do not .know how the minister will deal with it but I certainly do commend to him the suggestions of my hon. friend here and those which I have made for his consideration in the hope that perhaps during committee, between now and this evening perhaps,some officials might be able to come up with some appropriate wording or something to deal witn it or fie m'y want to go through with it as he has put it in front of the House now, ~ir. Speaker, But I think there is a grave danger in that the hon, member for LaPoile (Hr.

Neary) is on to something, something serious, somethi.I;g which should be dealt with and perhaps the compromise that I have suggested witich seelilS to get rid of the dilemma which arises ~nay be the appropriate way cf doing it. I do not know,maybe there is a better suggestion but I think something is needed. MR. SPEAKER: Hon. member for Conception Bay South. HR. NOLAN: Just a very brief word, Mr. Speaker, on this Conflict of Interest Act. God knows we need _ as many peopl~ as we can to participate on a volunteer basis in so many fields of endeavour in this Province.

Although it may not be directly referring to the bill in terms of conflict of interest I hope that the minister might consider cme little item that I 'Would like to talk about. Ile have in this land, as they have in all·lands,professional do-gooders. I have known people in my time who1 if you offered them positions on twenty-five boards they would take them, they would get down on their knees and beg you and they would have their children and their uncles and aunts, they are professional office seekers, this is how they get their kicks, professional do-gooders.

Lousy attendance by the way,if the minister wculd ever check• I had some acquaintance with one board one time where annarently this was another volunteer group and I will be quite happy to tell the minister privately sometime what the board was and so on, they never had 1

Hay 13, 1973 Tape No. 3318 AI-l-2 a quorum, they never showed up for the meetings. Then the government of the day I believe instituted a small stipend to pay to the boards - I think maybe my friend opposite may know what I am talking about, JIIR. A • MURPHY: He is the one I think. l!R.~: No. It was not the han. minister, believe me. But anyway, there was a small stipend that was then instituted and it was remarkable how the volunteerisn rose up - their hearts beat as one, ~y God they never missed a meeting, they would get out of betl to e;o.

Now, all I am say in[; to the minister in this regard is let us cia everything that we possibly can to encourage people to serve, on a volunteer basis.,the co=unity. God know-s t:here are enough needs 1 .and without volunteers,may I s~y,in sports, recreation and so many other things in the community in which I have lived and always lived one way or ti1e otl:er, and I aill sure hon. members opposite will agree, you cannot cio it,. The .Kiwanis Husic Festival- it would take a department of government to put that show on the road and probably not as effectively. I only mention that as -an aside.

But I woUld ask the minister and all the ministers who may have boards under their jurisdiction,one way or another,if you got the professional do-gooders 1~ho have been knocking on your door saying,~.Minister,if ever the occasion arises I would like to serve in this capacity or that well fine. Now if they are in that position make them do the work, make them at least attend, if they are not attending give them the boot, fling them off and put some people on there who have a genuine interest in serving the co=unity. SOME HON.

HEHBERS: Hear, hear! i•!R, NOLAN: Now the other thing is in reference to di~- closure of conflict of interest. Anyone it seems who is now involved in public life Voluntarily, getting paid a small stipend,in elected office or God !mows - I mean every