Manitoba Hansard — 11 October 1995 (Sitting 46, 36th Legislature, 1st Session)

36-1-46

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

First Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLV No. 46-1:30 p.m., Wednesday, October 11, 1995 ISSN 0542-5492

Name ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILM ON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LA THLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWAY, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David PALLISTER, Brian, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Rob lin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Pembina Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescentwood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River Party N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

3783 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, October 11, 1995 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Emergency Health Care Services Community Hospitals Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Roberto Naval, Bob Alfaro, Cathie Woodhall and others requesting the Legislative Assembly urge the Minister responsible for Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider making a commitment to the people of Manitoba that emergency health care services in Winnipeg's five community hospitals will remain open seven days a week, 24 hours a day.

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Emergency Health Care Services Community Hospitals Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Lamoureux). It complies with the rules and the practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Yes. Madam Speaker: Yes. The Clerk will read. Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): The petition of the undersigned residents of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth THAT emergency health care services are the core of Manitoba's health care system. THAT Manitobans deserve the greatest possible access to this care.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly urge the Minister responsible for Health (Mr. McCrae) consider making a commitment to the people of Manitoba that emergency health care services in Winnipeg's five community hospitals will remain open seven days a week, 24 hours a day. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 205- The Health Care Records Act Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk), that leave be given to introduce Bill205, The Health Care Records Act;

Loi sur les dossiers medicaux, and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, this bill has been moved by members on this side of the House on four or five previous legislative occasions, and we are hoping that we will have the opportunity to debate and pass this bill during this session. This bill is part of the spirit of the consumer movement and consistent, I say, with real health care reform.

It provides for a legislative mechanism to enable health care consumers to have access to their own medical records, and it proposes the enshrinement of this principle in the confidentiality of the law. This bill can only mean, in our view, better-informed health public, more openness and trust between the public, caregivers and improvements overall in our total health care system. Thank you. Motion agreed to. *

(1335) Bill206- The Public Health Amendment Act Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Thompson (Mr.

3784 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October II, I995 Ashton), that leave be given to introduce Bi11206, The Public Health Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia sante publique, and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, this is the second of three bills that we intend to introduce that we hope will help improve the public health and health in general of all Manitobans. This bill recognizes mandatory reporting of adverse reactions to vaccination, and calls for information on both the benefits and the risks of vaccinations to be provided.

The bill accepts that immunization has been a factor leading to the reduction of many diseases in this province but recognizes evidence linking vaccinations with disability and death in some healthy infants. Like the previous bill, this bill proposes to ensure the active involvement by the pub lic in our health care system and will lead to more informed consent, decision making and enhanced quality of health care services in the province. I acknowledge the support of all members of the House in this bill and look forward to debating this bill and passage of this very important health legislation.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Motion agreed to. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Garment Industry Employment Opportunities Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, my question is to the First Minister. Last year when I attended the Fashion Institute annual meeting, they reported to us that some 700 positions were available for skilled and trained people in their industry that were going wanting. Last evening, regrettably, that number has now-or thankfully, depending on what way you are looking at it.

It is very good in terms of the industry, but there are I ,500 positions now that the industry claimed at their annual meeting last night attended by the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey), that could be filled with properly trained people. Obviously, properly trained people includes people who are available in our domestic market and people who are available potentially through immigration.

I would like to ask the Premier, why has this number more than doubled over the last 12 months, and why have we got no results in terms of getting those positions filled and taking advantage of the work of garment workers now in Winnipeg and the apparel industry? Hon. Gary Film on (Premier): I thank the member for the question. There are a number of facets to the answer.

Firstly, the number has doubled because of the fact that probably something in the range of 800 to I ,000 additional jobs have been added in the garment industry or are in the process of being added through a phenomenal period of growth for our fashion industry, one that is marked by tremendous export opportunities in major markets such as New York and Los Angeles and right across the U.S. Madam Speaker, in addition to all of that, the shortage has been exacerbated by a lack of opportunity to bring immigrants into the province to help us with the specific skill shortages.

The fashion industry, the Manitoba Fashion Institute, in co-operation with the government of Manitoba, are capable of training a certain number of people each and every year, and those programs remain in place and will be expanded, but with the explosive growth, the only source of sufficient personnel is if immigration opportunities are opened. We have made that point on numerous occasions, both by virtue of the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Downey) speaking with and writing to the Honourable Lloyd Axworthy. We have also made the point by the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mr.

Gilleshamm er) writing to and meeting eventually with the federal Minister of Immigration, and as recently as this morning, several of our ministers

October 11, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3785 met with the Honourable Lloyd Axworthy, Mr. David Walker, member of Parliament, and others of their staff to try and address directly this issue. It is a serious issue. It is an issue that should be an enormous benefit to the province but, obviously, is a problem because we are not able to obtain the co operation from the federal government to assist us in solving the problem. *

(1340) Immigration Agreement Status Report Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, the public of Manitoba is aware that the Premier promised in 1990 to have a federal-provincial agreement on immigration. He made that promise in the previous election. Madam Speaker, since that time, we have had some 40 percent decline in the number of immigrants coming to this province through the Mulroney government, through the Campbell government that the Premier argued he would have good relations with and now through the Liberal government in Ottawa.

I would like to know what are the results, the specific results, of the meeting today with Minister Axworthy. Do we have a tangible action plan that will override the downtown Toronto immigration policy that we now see enunciated by the federal government? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, we presented the Government of Canada with a specific plan of action that we believe will solve the problem, and we, I believe, were given a fair and positive hearing this morning.

I might say that last Friday I took the matter to the attention of the Prime Minister, and I am led to believe that the federal government will work towards a solution of the problem. We remain committed to a separate federal provincial Canada-Manitoba immigration agreement, and that matter was addressed at the meeting between the Honourable Sergio Marchi and our Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mr. Gilleshammer), and he indicated he was waiting for a green light to be given to him as a result of discussions that we then held this morning.

It is our understanding that green light will be given to him by his colleagues. We remain optimistic and that is what I can report as of this morning's meeting. Mr. Doer: In a similar time in the early '70s, former Premier Schreyer reached an agreement with the garment industry, with garment workers, and with the federal government to expeditiously deal with the shortage of people, again, with an expanding industry.

Madam Speaker, I would like to know, given the fact that the Premier has made this promise through three successive Prime Ministers and made the promise five years ago to have a made-in-Manitoba immigration policy, when will we get tangible results? I am glad to hear the meeting went well today, but when do we expect to have a plan of action that will have tangible results? Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, my colleagues and I in government have remained steadfastly committed to achieving this agreement. We need, obviously, a federal partner that is willing to sign with us and be co operative in achieving that goal.

Although we appeared to have been stymied for quite a substantial period of time, as of this morning's meeting we believe that the matter should proceed quickly and I hope to be able to report further progress in the near future. Endangered Spaces Program Treaty Land Entitlements Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, I have a new question on federal-provincial relations and First Nations relations with this government, to the First Minister.

Last March we asked questions to the government about what we perceive to be, and what First Nations perceive to be, the unilateral action of the provincial government in designating two million acres of land as

3786 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October II, I995 set-aside land under the so-called Endangered Spaces Program. When we ra ised this in this House the government denied that this had taken place, in fact, argued that an earlier paper, without boundaries, in '94 was in fact de facto consultation.

Since that time, the federal minister has written to the provincial government arguing as we had in the House, as the member for Rupertsland had argued in the House and others had argued, that little effort was made to consult with my department and with Manitoba First Nations effectively in terms of designating lands for this Endangered Spaces proposal.

I would like to ask the Premier: Has the government taken into consideration not only the First Nations views on this matter, but the federal Minister of Indian Affairs in terms of his concerns with the provincial government about the unilateral action of the provincial government, which may jeopardize treaty land entitlement negotiations which are very important to First Nations and all people in this province? Hon.

Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, this question was raised in the House at the time when we made the positive announcement of setting aside the four new provincial parks. At that time when the question was raised I tabled in this House the people that had all been contacted and asked for responses in the consultation process. Every member of the Legislature had that made available to them. We had people that did reply, from the First Nations people that replied to the inquiries that we made.

In terms of the letter that was received by the federal minister, we clarified our position with that minister as well. *

(1345) Consultations-First Nations Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, the minister and the Premier know that the follow-up consultations have been deemed by the federal government, which is also a party of treaty land entitlements, to be inadequate. I would like to ask a further question to the Premier.

Not only have First Nations people found that this process was inadequate and unfair, not only has the federal government found that this is unfair, we now have a letter from the World Wildlife Feder ation that basically says, and according to Monte Hummel, having originally supported the designation of these parks, we are disappointed to hear that the designation did not involve adequate consultation with First Nations people. I would like to ask the Premier: We have a number of groups now saying that you did not proceed fairly and properly.

Will you now rescind the Order-in Council and start working in partnership with First Nations people in this province? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, both the federal minister and Mr. Humm el were ill informed and were not aware that all of these organizations had been contacted and asked for their comments and participation. They did have the opportunity and they chose not to participate for whatever reason. Many others, dozens of other people given the same letter and the same invitation to comment and participate did.

If either one of them had been informed, they would not have written those letters. Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, you only have the Conservative Party that feels that they have been properly inf ormed and proceeding in a unilateral way without agreement from First Nations, the federal government and now the World Wildlife Federation that is involved with the government on the Endangered Spaces Program. Perhaps the Premier would stop being so stubborn and start listening to the citizens and First Nations citizens in this province and get agreement on something so crucial as two million acres of land.

I would like to further ask the Premier: Mr. Monte Hummel goes on to say that the First Nations had not been consulted about the specific boundaries of the two million acres of land set aside unilaterally by this province, contrary to the wishes and agreement of First Nations, but the land with First Nations may have abrogated existing agreements.

October 11, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3787 I would like to ask the Premier, in light of this information, the federal government, the opposition, First Nations people and the World Wildlife Federation, will you rescind the Order-in-Council so we can start with treaty land entitlement negotiations in a much more positive way rather than the stubborn way we see from the provincial government opposite? Mr.

Filmon: Madam Speaker, it is interesting that we should be lectured about settling treaty land entitlements by the Leader of the Opposition whose party in government for six and a half years did not settle one acre of treaty land entitlement. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr. Doer: The First Minister is impugning our motives when he knows in '85 there was an agreement on treaty land entitlement that was rejected by the federal Conservative government in Ottawa, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Leader of the official opposition does not have a point of order.

It is clearly a dispute over the facts. *** *

(1350) Madam Speaker: The honourable First Minister, to complete his response. Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, the irony of that where he says his position was not accepted so therefore his unilateral position was the right position and that is what it takes to make an agreement-the irony of it, the irony of that foolishness. Not one acre of land was settled under their administration, and this administration has settled treaty land entitlements on a number of occasions since we have been in office.

Madam Speaker, I repeat, the words that he quoted from that letter, from both letters, were ill-informed words, were not aware of the process that was followed, the consultations that were requested and that were invited that did not happen, not because of this administration but because of the fact that those to whom the letter was sent did not respond or did not care to be consulted. - Fishing Industry Whitefish Quotas Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): My question is for the Minister of Natural Resources.

Northern fishermen on Lake Winnipeg do not need a Natural Resources review of the fishing industry to tell them that catching whitefish at 50 cents a pound is not profitable. Is the minister aware of the numerous requests made to his department asking to extend the whitefish quotas for northern fishermen for three weeks of the season? Bon.

Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, the first responsibility that myself as minister and the Department of Natural Resources has is to make sure that we have resources out there and that they are sustainable, namely, wildlife, whether forestry or whether it is fish. Madam Speaker, it is because of the last hundred years that the Department of Natural Resources basically established quotas, established boundaries, so that there would be a sustainable yield from the fisheries. Madam Speaker, we are still operating on that premise, and we cannot knee-jerk to every request that comes.

There have been many requests in this last year, some dissatisfactions, and we are going to be dealing with them. We are setting up a private, independent consulting group that is going to basically study all the quotas, boundaries, all issues. The terms of reference have been worked out in conjunction with the people on the lake, the commercial fishermen. This study is going to be imminent, to be taking off at any given time now, and we hope to have the results by the end of this fiscal year.

3788 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 11, 1995 Mr. Struthers: I have a letter from the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation that I would like to table in the House today. The letter asks for more whitefish. Given this, will the minister reconsider his decision not to open the whitefish quota for northern fishermen, and will he extend the fall fishing season by I 0 days due to good weather? Mr. Driedger: Madam Speaker, one thing that has to be considered is that we have quotas. We have a summer fishery, we have a fall fishery and we have a winter fishery.

The whitefish fishery that is in place right now basically terminates at the end of October. The prices are between 50 cents and 60 cents at the present time. Normally what happens is that when the winter fishery starts, which is at the end of November, prices jump nearly double in terms of the whitefish fishery, so there is a benefit for people to basically maybe wait with that fishery. At the present time, Madam Speaker, what also impacts the whole issue is the fact that at this time the whitefish are moving into the rivers to spawn.

It is for this reason that certain quotas are set, so that we have a sustainable yield for the fish for the future. Mr. Struthers: Will the minister then meet with northern fishermen who have brought 7,000 pounds of whitefish to the Legislature today to give away, instead of wasting this fish by dumping it in the bush as his department's regulations force them to do? Mr. Driedger: Madam Speaker, I am trying to explain the process that has been in place for many years. This is not a problem that has developed just this year, but we will try and address it.

Madam Speaker, the last time that there was an extensive study done on the Lake Winnipeg fishery was approximately 25 years ago. Certain circumstances have changed. There are a lot of concerns out there, and it is for that reason that we are going to have an independent, third-party study taking place with terms of reference that were guided by the commercial fishermen, and we are going to have that study done. I expect that report to be in my hands by the end of December, so that we can deal with it for the future and next year's fishing season. *

(1355) Fishing Industry Whitef"Ish Season Extension Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): My questions are also directed to the Minister of Natural Resources, concerning the crisis that northern fishermen are facing today, Madam Speaker. Given the fact that fishermen in Norway House have run out of quota due to the manner in which the whitefish is calculated on their pickerel catch, what can this minister do in terms of trying to assist and accommodate the fishermen of Norway House? Will he extend the season for about two or three weeks? Hon.

Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, the fall fishing season ends at the end of October. The whitefish fishery is open until that time, and then there is approximately a month until the ice forms when the winter season starts and when the prices are invariably better. The request ofNorway House and other communities that basically have asked about quota increases, there is that opportunity to buy quota. We brought in that regulation that they can buy quota from those people who are not actively pursuing their quotas. They can buy quota and increase it that way.

Madam Speaker, it would be irresponsible if we just carte blanche allowed every request for an increase in quota in a season. It would be irresponsible for us in terms of sustaining the fish yields for the future. Mr. Lathlin: Madam Speaker, could I ask this minister then to take charge of this department and put the interests of northern fishermen ahead of a handful of fishermen from Gimli? Mr. Driedger: Madam Speaker, the system has been in place for the last hundred years. There is an ongoing conflict between the southern basin and the northern basin fishermen in terms of who has what rights.

October 11, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3789 That is what this study is supposed to be addressing to some degree. Do we have too much quota? Do individuals have too much quota? Should people from Gimli be fishing in the north basin or not? These issues are all part of the terms of reference that will be dealt with, Madam Speaker, and I say again, the government and the department has been working very closely with the commercial fishermen. We have an advisory board on Lake Winnipeg, where each community has an elected representative.

They meet twice a year, make recommendations to my department, to myself, and we have qualified people who basically do the assessment together with the advisory board. Madam Speaker, we are trying to pay attention. We know there is agony and pain out there in terms of poor fishery in the north basin. I cannot change some of those things. Mr. Lathlin: Madam Speaker, my last question, again, is for the Minister of Natural Resources.

Will the minister advise the House whether allowing 12 fishermen from the Gimli area, when 80 percent of the fishermen in Manitoba are aboriginal people, to have a full run of Lake Winnipeg, to completely monopolize, have full control of Lake Winnipeg, does he think that is fair, discriminatory or racist? Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would ask the honourable member for The Pas to rephrase his question and withdraw the word "racist." I had ruled on this previously, and I was very, very adamant that the word "racist" will not be permitted in this Chamber. Point of Order Mr.

Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Yes, I would seek a ruling because in looking at your ruling and also looking at the House of Commons precedent, the precedent in the House of Commons that deals with the term "racist" was in specific reference to a member. It was an accusation that was made by a member of the House of Commons towards a then-Conservative cabinet minister. Your ruling referred to comments referring to a specific individual.

It has never been my understanding that racist policies are unparliamentary, and I ask, Madam Speaker, in asking for your ruling on this matter, to consider, for example, what would have happened in South Africa ·when they brought in apartheid, whether members of the duly elected Chamber could not have called racist policies racist policies. I believe, if you would look at the comments made by the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin), he did not make any reference to any individual member of the House.

He referred specifically to racist policies, and I would submit, Madam Speaker, it is not only parliamentary, it is the duty, the privilege of all members to raise those kinds of concerns on policy issues in this Legislature, and if it gets to the point where we cannot call policies what they are, we cannot represent our constituents, so I strongly ask that you do not rule racist comments out of order. Hon.

Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): On the same point of order, Madam Speaker, your charge and the charge of other Speakers during the time that I have had the privilege of being in this House has always been to choose our words very carefully. Madam Speaker, the question of the word "racist," whether it refers to one person or in the case of referring to everyone on this side of the House as part of the government clearly is out of order.

If a policy that is implemented by our government, members on this side of the House, is deemed to be racist by members opposite, then, Madam Speaker, it impugns the motives of all of us on this side of the House, and it is clearly out of order and ought to be so ruled. *

(1400) Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, I think if you will review Hansard, you will fmd a similar question from the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos) last June, dealing with the so-called racist policies of immigration from the federal government.

3790 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October II , I995 The government House leader never stood up on a point of order. The minister never objected to the point of order. In fact, he answered the question on two occasions. You did not rule the question out of order, and therefore we have the precedent, you in the Chair, where the question on policies is ruled in one way, not to be out of order, and the questions of individuals, if there is any allegation of an individual being considered racist, to be out of order.

So there is a difference between policies and individuals, Madam Speaker, and those are consistent with your past rulings. Madam Speaker: Order, please. I thank all honourable members for their advice. I will take the point of order under advisement, but I would once again urge all members to exercise caution in the wording of their questions and their responses. In my personal opinion, there is no room in this House for strong language. *** Mr.

Driedger: Madam Speaker, it is unfortunate that the member has not availed himself of some of the information related to the statement that he made in this House and in his question. When we talk of the whitefish fishery which basically is stationed in Gimli, over half of the people who are involved with that, I believe, are aboriginal, so when he makes that kind of a statement, he should try and get his facts straight before he makes that kind of a statement. Madam Speaker, the other thing is that this system has been in place for a hundred years.

We will now, with the study that is being undertaken, look to see whether we can come up with a system that is going to be sustainable over a period of a long time, so that those people involved in commercial fishery can make a reasonable living at it which many of them do not at this time. So, Madam Speaker, this is not a problem that has developed in this last month and the last year. It has been there for a long time. If the member felt so strongly about who is doing what out there, when his people were government, why did they not change some of those things? I am prepared to change them now.

Health Care System Kidney Dialysis Availability Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health. Earlier this morning, I found a somewhat interesting situation where we actually have dialysis patients who are being transported via taxi from the city of Winnipeg to other communities such as Morden. In fact, there is a contract between Unicity and our health organization to see this occur. My question for the minister is, under what circumstances are we forcing patients to have to take a taxi to rural Manitoba? Hon.

James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I would be happy to review the circumstances of the case to which the honourable member refers and provide a report to him. Suffice to say, however, requirement for dialysis has been growing very, very significantly year over year in Manitoba, and the government and the facilities that provide those services have been working very hard year after year to try to keep up with the very significantly growing demand. Again, I would be happy to take the question as notice if the honourable member would give me more information. Mr.

Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, there are in fact a number of different situations in which people have been transported. In fact, there is a contract between Unicity Taxi and the health care. My question is, if the minister finds out that what I have said is factual, will he then make the commitment to resolve this problem? Mr. McCrae: Well, it may well turn out to be factual. The only reason for my caution is so many times in this House honourable members tend to bring information that could mostly be described as a figment of

October 11, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3791 somebody's imagination, but I am not saying that in the case of the honourable member's question, the honourable member for Inkster. I remind the honourable member that there are people living in various communities in Manitoba who, simply because you cannot have-a unit in every community, have to travel sometimes significant distances to access these types of services. I remind the honourable member of that but, as I say, I would be happy to have a look at that situation. Mr.

Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, just to confirm then, will the minister then make it a high priority to look into if there is a need for an additional dialysis machine in the city of Winnipeg and, failing that, that there is better scheduling, quite possibly, and that might alleviate the problem in itself potentially? Mr. McCrae: I think it is appropriate that the honourable member should attach high priority to this, Madam Speaker, and I do too. First Nations Communities Housing Shortages Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): My questions are for the Premier.

Yesterday we asked this Premier to use his office to work with the federal government on solutions for the housing crisis at Pukatawagan, a crisis that regrettably is common to many other reserves. As MLA for Pukatawagan, I have been in contact with the federal government on this issue, and I want to ask whether he as Premier of all of Manitoba, including Pukatawagan, has contacted the federal government yesterday to raise his concerns. Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, the point that I make in responding to the questions for the member for Flin Flon is that he has two opportunities: one is to come and grandstand in this Legislature with respect to matters- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Madam Speaker, Beauchesne is very clear that members should not be attributing motives, impugning the motives of other members.

I think it is particularly offensive that the Premier would be doing this on a continual basis when all the member for Flin Flon is doing is speaking on behalf o� his questions and asking a question in this House. I would like to ask you not only to ask the minister to withdraw the comment but also to answer the question for the member for Flin Flon. Madam Speaker: On the point of order, I will take the point of order under advisement, and, if necessary, report back to the House. *** Madam Speaker: The honourable First Minister, to complete his response. Mr.

Filmon: Madam Speaker, I find it ironic that the members opposite can say that calling something racist is not imputing motives but saying "grandstanding" is. I do not accept the standards of the members opposite whatsoever. The point that I make, Madam Speaker, is that when the member understands that that issue is 100 percent under the jurisdiction of the Government of Canada, then if he really wants to get action on it, he ought to take his question and his actions to the Government of Canada, instead of trying to just be a grandstander here in this Legislature. *

(1410) Mr. Jennissen: My supplementary question, Madam Speaker, is, will the Premier assure this House that he and his ministers will work with all levels of government to resolve the housing crisis in Pukatawagan and other reserves with the same energy and enthusiasm they showed for the failed Winnipeg Jets/arena project? Mr. Filmon: There is no question, Madam Speaker, that we will do that. Madam Speaker, I refer the member for Flin Flon to a news release that was issued by the government news

3792 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 11, 1995 services on August 22 of this year, which indicated that our government had provided an additional $800,000 this year to lever a total of $3.2 million from CMHC and provide for, among other things, the repair and improvement of low-income housing units in rural and northern communities and to provide sewer and water hookups and plumbing for the communities of Pikwitonei and Nelson House.

Madam Speaker, the point that I make is that this government is sensitive to and concerned about the needs for housing in northern communities, whether they be in Northern Affairs communities or whether they be in the communities of the jurisdiction of the Government of Canada. However, in the jurisdiction of the Government of Canada, only the Government of Canada can act. That is the point that I make. Dwayne Archie Johnston Parole Hearing Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice.

As the Minister of Justice is no doubt aware, Dwayne Archie Johnston, who was finally convicted of the rape and murder of Helen Betty Osborne over 16 years after the crime was committed, has been granted temporary absences and will now be eligible for parole in the near future. I would like to ask the minister if she will add her voice to the hundreds of Manitobans who have signed a petition requesting the National Parole Board to reverse their decision to grant Mr. Johnston temporary day passes, and also ask the minister whether or not she will write to the Solicitor General opposing the early release. Hon.

Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, this issue has been raised to me. I can tell the member that the issue of parole in this instance is a federal matter. However, I have given instructions to my department to look and see if there is some way in which we may have an influence or we may be able to add our voice. Mr. Robinson: Madam Speaker, I just have one more question for the Minister of J':'5tice. I would like to ask the minister: Will she request intervener status at the next parole board hearing which will hear Mr. Johnston's case? Mrs.

Vodrey: Madam Speaker, as I said, I have directed my department to look at any methods which may be open to us to be involved in this process, which is a federal process. I also have made representation to the federal government to examine the whole process of parole, in terms of any early release, and to make sure that perhaps additional information may be added and considered by those members of the parole board. Health Care System Nurse Practitioners Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question would be for the Minister of Health.

Yesterday I posed a question in terms of a potential role for nurse practitioners. I understand that in some American states, in particular the University of Washington actually provides for a certification process for a nurse practitioner. Would this Minister of Health be prepared to look at expanding the role to look at the possibility of certification of a nurse practitioner in the province of Manitoba? Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, just yesterday I had a good lengthy meeting with representatives of the Manitoba Association of Registered Nurses.

At that meeting were also delegations of nurses from the Grace General Hospital, as well as the Health Sciences Centre. We had a good discussion about the potential role of nursing professionals in the future of our health care system, and even in the context of more recent

October 11, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3793 activities surrounding emergency services, the role of nursing in Manitoba. I will take the honourable member's question as a suggestion for further study and to incorporate in our discussions as we look at the roles of all the various professionals in the system in the future. Physician Resources Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, can the Minister of Health give some sort of indication as to an update on what he is aware of in terms of the number of doctors that are going to be leaving the province of Manitoba? Hon.

James McCrae (Minister of Health): Prior to the recent revelations about some emergency physicians leaving Manitoba, some of whom, I understand, are being replaced or have been replaced, prior to that, and factoring out those numbers, and I do not know how many of the 42 doctors who walked off the job have decided to return to their jobs permanently, but prior to all of that, the information I had was that we were in the vicinity of a supply imbalance in Manitoba,

whereas in the city of Winnipeg we have somewhat of an oversupply and in rural Manitoba and northern Manitoba, an underserviced situation. We are working with various agencies to address that imbalance. It is not, in my view, the kind of oversupply in the city of Winnipeg that is alarming, except that we know that some of those physicians working in Winnipeg, we would like to fmd ways to persuade them to make their services available in underserviced areas of Manitoba where the consumers of health care services need their services. Emergency Services Mr.

Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, can the Minister of Health indicate the impact the emergency services shutdown from 10 to eight is going to have on doctors' abilities to be able to service their patients? To cite a specific example: a doctor who would have entrance rights, let us say, to Seven Oaks Hospital might not have entrance rights to the Health Sciences Centre, yet his patient would be obligated between 10 and eight to go to the Health Sciences Centre. Has he thought through the ramifications on that, and can he report on it? Hon.

James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, we have done a lot of thinking about this, and certainly the one thing that emerges is that we are looking at an emergency services system city wide. We want the honourable member-and we hope that all the others working in the system will look at a city wide system as opposed to a system composed of several facilities. Instead of facility based, we should talk about system-wide issues; instead of supply-based medicine, we should be talking about needs-based medicine. The question the honourable member asks is a legitimate one and requires an answer.

I will assist not only in getting one, but making sure that there is one, one that is satisfactory and acceptable to the consumers of health services in Winnipeg. *

(1420) Aboriginal Health Care Government Initiatives Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, no one who has had the opportunity to read the Postl report can fail to be struck by the astounding inequities between the health of Manitoba's aboriginal children and those of other people in the province of Manitoba. I quote from page 27 of the Postl report where it says, regarding treaty Status children: They are less healthy on virtually every count, more at risk for ill health than any other children in Manitoba.

Can the minister today, after seven years of Tory government and two and a half years at the helm of health care reform, specifically outline for us what actions this government has taken to deal with aboriginal communities and the severe problems in this province of aboriginal children's health? Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): The honourable member's question goes to the very

3794 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October II , I995 foundation of what it is that we need to address in a reformed health system in this whole country. Manitoba, as the keystone province and as the province with a high representation of aboriginal people in it, is a good place for that question to be asked. Dr. Postl and his committee were certainly correct in identifying aboriginal issues and, as part of our health reform strategy, Madam Speaker, we share that identification. We look at youth generally with a particular emphasis on aboriginal youth. We look at seniors.

We look at women's health issues and, of course, issues related to the general population. · Respiratory problems regarding aboriginal children are a serious issue, and there are things that can be done and should be done and will be done. I can only repeat some of the things, however, the Premier (Mr. Filmon) has said but join him and others in suggesting that if there is an indictment in our country to be issued, it has to do with I 50 years of not dealing with the problem raised by the honourable member.

I include in that the government that his colleagues were part of and certainly federal governments, and unfortunately too some aboriginal leadership has failed in this regard as well, Madam Speaker, and we all have work to do together. I am saying that if we do not get on with that job we will have a system-wide problem that will escalate. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Time for Oral Questions has expired. NONPOLITICAL STATEMENTS Condolences-Betty Bilyk Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I wonder if I could have leave, Madam Speaker, for a nonpolitical statement.

Madam Speaker: Does the honourable First Minister have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I rise today to acknowledge and mourn the passing early this morning of Betty Bilyk. As my personal secretary for over I 0 years, Betty was known to I think almost everyone in this building. Although she was a political appointee, she was I think loved and admired by everyone in the building whether they be civil servants or political appointees of all parties.

Betty, with her cheerful and friendly manner, was a favourite I think with both civil servants and all who entered this building. I know that she cared for many and cared about everyone, and she will certainly be missed. I know all members will want to join with me in extending our condolences to her son David and his wife Colleen, her son John, and her husband Ed. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Yes, leave for a nonpolitical statement. Madam Speaker: Does the honourable Leader of the official opposition have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr.

Doer: Madam Speaker, I want to join with the Premier in our condolences, too, in the passing of Betty Bilyk this morning. She is a person whom we have worked with for years in the Legislative Building, as the Premier has indicated. I was talking to Jeannette this morning who works in our office, and she said she was the most positive person in the whole building. I know that I had worked with her on many occasions, to have meetings with the Premier, in her capacity as secretary to the Premier.

I know that must be a very demanding job with members of the public and members of the various groups that meet with the Premier on a continual basis in that office. She always worked with other public employees and with other members of the public with dignity and class, and our condolences do go to the family at this time of mourning. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, if I may have leave to make a nonpolitical statement. Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for Inkster have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr.

Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, I too would like to join both the Premier and the Leader of the official

October 11, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3795 opposition in extending our condolences to the family members and so forth of Betty Bilyk. You know, it is one of the things that we never really appreciate as often as we would like to, the support staff that we have· and no one more than the individuals who answer the telephones on our behalf. They make sure that we are there for our appointments and so forth, and just to give tribute and offer condolences to the family. Thank you. MATTER OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE Aboriginal Communities' Problems Mr.

Oscar Latblin (The Pas): Madam Speaker, I move THAT under Rule 27 .(1) that the ordinary business of the House be set aside to discuss a matter of urgent public importance, namely the failure of both the federal and provincial governments to deal with the very serious problems facing aboriginal communities, from inadequate housing and poor health care to the lack of action on natural resources and economic development issues. This motion is being seconded by the member for Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson). Motion presented. Mr.

Lathlin: Madam Speaker, in regard to the urgency of this debate, I want to emphasize, as has been pointed out previously before, that the Estimates have now been completed and passed. There are no major pieces of legislation designed to deal with aboriginal issues, and we cannot use grievances at this time. As such, there are no other opportunities to debate these matters before the Chamber.

I want to also say, Madam Speaker, that we, the 57 members of this Legislature, this Assembly here, are elected by the people in our constituencies, and throughout our term, issues are brought before us in person, by delegations of people, by correspondence and so on, and it is up to us, the members who have been elected into office, to bring those issues to government and to try to get the government to address those very serious issues. Madam Speaker, I also want to emphasize that whenever we ask questions from this side, whenever we raise issues from this side, that does not mean we are grandstanding.

It does not mean that we are bad people. It simply means that we are trying to represent the constituents who have elected us to this office. The urgency of these matters now before us, Madam Speaker, 70 homeless residents-[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order, please. This is a very important matter and the honourable member for The Pas was recognized to speak to the urgency of the matter. Mr. Latblin: Madam Speaker, as we sit here today, 70 homeless residents of Pukatawagan are in Winnipeg and, in fact, were at the Legislature yesterday asking for assistance from whomever would listen to them.

Homelessness is becoming a major problem on every reserve. The Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae), just prior to the closing of Question Period, dealt a little bit about the health conditions. He agrees that the conditions are deplorable and that something should be done about it. Madam Speaker, today at the Legislature we also have fishermen from Lake Winnipeg asking for help. They are asking for changes to the quota system so that they can also make a living just like everybody else. In the meantime, they are today donating 7,000 pounds of whitefish to Winnipeg Harvest, the fish that they could not sell.

Madam Speaker, the failure of either level of government to deal with these and other issues housing, high unemployment, lack of economic development opportunties, poor state of health, lack of sewer and water, lack of natural resources co management agreements-! think it is our responsibility, whether these people are aboriginal, whether they are Status or non-Status, whether they live in Winnipeg or up north, I submit to you that this government has some

3796 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October II , I995 responsibility. This government failed to act on aboriginal issues arising from the An. They have failed to work in partnership on issues with aboriginal people such as I mentioned, co-management. Madam Speaker, in closing, governments cannot continue to simply ignore these issues and hope they will go away. They are not going to go away, instead they will get worse. The time for action and commitment is now. Thank you. * (I 430) Hon.

Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I do not think there is anyone in this Chamber, and I believe I know all members reasonably well, who would want to see any human being live in substandard conditions, whether it is housing, whether it is lack of services, whether it is health care or anything else. Madam Speaker, the question, however, is, who has the responsibility? In this country we have a lot of constitutional responsibility divisions between provinces and the federal government.

We have a very complex method of paying for those services that are delivered through that constitutional mechanism. We have heard on a number of occasions the fact that over $200 million just in this budget year alone will be withdrawn by the federal government from transfer payments to the province of Manitoba, which severely limits our ability to deliver programs to all of Manitoba. Madam Speaker, it is a serious issue and one with which I significantly sympathize, but the fact of the matter is the responsibility, as outlined by the First Minister (Mr.

Filmon) yesterday and again today, lies with the federal government. We could have an urgent debate this afternoon and for the next hour and a half or so debate the issue but, at the end of the day, what would be accomplished? We do not have the jurisdiction. The relationship between First Nations is with the federal government. It is a relationship constitutionally. It is a relationship on a fiduciary basis. It is a relationship on a provision-for-service basis. So whether we debate it in here this afternoon will not make much difference in the overall scheme of things.

It may serve to salve the conscience of some of us in this House, but if we really wanted to make a difference we would spend the next hour and a half going down to our offices and. telephoning Ottawa and talking to the Minister of Urban Affairs, Madam Speaker, to phone the Minister of lndian Affairs to deal with the issues that are related to Pukatawagan as raised in this House by members opposite or raised by members in this House about other First Nations communities.

If we really wanted to see something happen, if we really wanted to help those people, then that is what we would do, not grandstand in this House but we would get on the phone, talk to Ottawa. They have the responsibility. Madam Speaker: Order, please. First, I would like to inform the House that I did receive the notice required under our subrule 27.( 1) and I would like to thank all honourable members for their advice as to whether the motion proposed by the honourable member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) should be debated today.

I had some question as to whether or not the motion of the honourable member for The Pas discusses only one matter which is what House Rule 27 prescribes. I am satisfied now that the operative part of the motion does deal with one matter, that is the problems faced by aboriginal communities, in particular, housing and health care.

In order for a matter of urgent public importance to proceed to debate, two conditions must be met; first, the subject matter must be so pressing that the ordinary opportunities for debate will not allow a debate to be held early enough and, second, it must be shown that the public interests will suffer if the matter is not given immediate attention. There do not appear to be other opportunities for this matter to be debated in the near future. When we look what is on the Order Paper, the first requirement for a debate has been met.

The second condition is, in essence, does the public interest demand that discussion take place immediately. I realize this is a very serious issue which particularly affects northern Manitobans and I understand that it is one which needs to be

October 11, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3797 addressed. However, it is not an emergency which has just arisen nor will it be remedied by setting aside this Assembly's business for today to allow for an emergency debate. Again, I acknowledge that the subject is a very important one. However, I must rule that the motion does not meet the criteria set out in our rules and in Beauchesne. Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Madam Speaker, I challenge your ruling. Voice Vote Madam Speaker: The ruling of the Chair has been challenged.

The question before the House is, shall the ruling of the Chair be sustained? All those in favour of the motion, please say yea. Laurendeau, McAlpine, McCrae, Mcintosh, Mitchelson, Newman, Pallister, Penner, Pitura, Praznik, Radcliff e, Reimer, Stef anson, Toews, Tweed, Vodrey. Nays Ashton, Ba"ett, Chomiak, Dewar, Doer, Evans (Brandon East), Friesen, Hickes, Jennissen, Kowalski, Lamoureux, Lath/in, Mackintosh, Maloway, Martindale, McGiff ord, Mihychuk, Reid, Robinson, Sale, Santos, Struthers, Wowchuk. Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): Yeas 27, Nays 23. Mr. Neil Gaudry (St.

Boniface): Yes, Madam Speaker, I was paired with the member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson). Madam Speaker: The ruling of the Chair is accordingly sustained. Some Honourable Members: Yea. *

(1540) Madam Speaker: All those opposed, please say nay. NONPOLITICAL STATEMENTS Some Honourable Members: Nay. Response to Expressions of Concern Madam Speaker: In my opinion, the Yeas have it. Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): Do I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Formal Vote Mr. Ashton: Yeas and Nays, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: A recorded vote has been requested. Call in the members. The question before the House is shall the ruling of the Chair be sustained.

Division A RECORDED VOTE was taken, the result being as fo llows: Yeas Cummings, Derkach, Downey, Driedger, Dyck, Enns, Ernst, Filmon, Findlay, Gilleshammer, Helwer, Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for The Maples have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr. Kowalski: In September of '93, when I left the Winnipeg police force on a leave of absence, one thing I knew I was going to miss was the camaraderie that came from working with a group of people under difficult situations.

This bond that developed continued on, not only into our business life but into our personal lives, and when we had crises in the family, financial crises, we helped each other out. Recently, my family has had to face a challenge to my wife's health, and many members of this House have expressed their concern, offers of assistance, best wishes, get well cards and flowers, and it shows that

3798 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 11, 1995 the members of this House are not only honourable but kind. On behalf of my wife and my family, I thank all the members for their expressions. Thank you very much. Condolences-Chief Merrick, Long Plain First Nation Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for Rupertsland have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): Madam Speaker, it is with deep regret that I announce the passing of one of our respected elders in the First Nations community.

His name was Angus Merrick from the Long Plain First Nation in the constituency of the honourable member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Pallister). I would like to extend my sincere condolences on behalf of myself and my colleagues on this side of the House to the family and to the leadership of the Long Plain First Nation. Mr. Merrick was a recipient of the Order of Canada, and we were truly very proud of him. He provided a lot of direction, a lot of guidance, to many of the young leadership in the First Nations community.

I just wanted to take this opportunity to express those sincere condolences to the many members of his family and also to the leadership of this community for which he provided very, very valuable leadership and guidance and direction over the years. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: Does the honourable Minister of Government Services have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Hon.

Brian Pallister (Minister of Government Services): It is also with regret and condolences to the family that I rise in sympathy for the passing of our friend Chief Merrick, and I thank the member for his kind comments. Chief Merrick was a good friend of our family's. My great-grandfather whom the chief told me about, told me stories of, someone whom I never met, developed a close relationship, and as a consequence, I guess, of our family living just four miles from the Long Plain Reserve, we had regular contact.

The chief was someone who put aside the pettiness and the differences that too often come between people and tried to build bridges between people. He educated and taught not only the people of his own band but people of the community around Portage Ia Prairie and this province the beautiful things about his culture and his history. He worked to make sure that those things were not used to draw people apart but instead to bring them together.

I had the great privilege of speaking and meeting with the chief just some months ago as a consequence of putting his name forward for the Order of Canada, and I am only sorry that he could not be with us for the official presentation of it in November, but I know all members of this House join together in expressing sympathy to his family, to his community, but at the same time celebrating a life well lived. Speaker's Rulings Madam Speaker: I have two rulings for the House. I took under advisement during Private Members' Business on Monday, September 25, a point of order raised by the Minister of Justice (Mrs.

Vodrey) about whether the remarks of the honourable member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) contravened the sub-judice convention. The remarks in question were made in debate on the amendment to private members' Resolution 11. Beauchesne's contains a number of references to the sub-judice convention. It notes that generally the convention provides that members should refrain from discussing matters which are before the courts in order to protect an accused person or other party in a court action from suffering any prejudicial effect from public discussion on the issue.

However, Speaker Rocan noted in an April 1992 ruling the sub-judice convention is a voluntary restraint and is a convention, not a rule. Citation 511 of

October 11 , 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3799 is a fundamental right without which they would be hampered in the performance of their duties. The Speaker should interfere with that freedom of speech only in exceptional cases where it is clear that to do otherwise could be harmful to specific individuals." I have reviewed with care the comments of the honourable member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) on Resolution 11 and am ruling his remarks did not breach the sub-judice convention.

His speech, in my opinion, dealt with matters in a general way and did not address details of a case. *** Madam Speaker: I took under advisement on October 2, during Question Period, a point of order raised by the honourable member for Osborne (Ms. McGifford). In the point of order, the member claimed that comments of the Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey) in answering a question were personal attacks and were not related to the question.

I believe the words spoken by the minister to which objection was made were, and I quote: "So the member's research is, as usual, done simply through a newspaper article, Madam Speaker, and through a quote that she read, which I am not sure if it was in context at all." The honourable member for Osborne (Ms. McGifford) did not have a point of order in terms of the personal charge, but I would agree that the minister's comments were not related to the question.

I wish to remind all ministers that they should comply with not only the letter but the spirit of Beauchesne's Citations 408(2) and 417 , that is, answers should be short, they should not incite debate and they should directly deal with the immediately preceding question. * (1 550) ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Would you call Bill 2, please? DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS Bill 2- The Balanced Budget, Debt Repayment and Taxpayer Protection and Consequential Amendments Act Madam Speaker: To resume debate on second reading, on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr.

Stefanson), (Bill 2, The Balanced Budget, Debt Repayment and Taxpayer Protection and Consequential Amendments Act;

Loi sur l'equilibre budgetaire, le remboursement de Ia dette et Ia protection des contribuables et apportant des modifications correlatives), standing in the name of the honourable member for Emerson, who has 24 minutes remaining. Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Madam Speaker, it is again a pleasure to rise on this extremely important debate and extremely important piece of legislation.

I find it interesting that the opposition parties so far have chosen to make representation in opposition to this bill, and the areas of interest that I find is that the only reason I see, and have heard, so far is that they are afraid they are going to have to apply, should they ever become government, heaven forbid, sound economic principles to governing. That, of course, means that if they raise a certain amount of revenue through taxation and/or other fees and issues, it would not allow them to spend more than what they actually raise.

I think it is important that we realize where we have come from and where we should be heading fiscally because each and every one of us knows, especially those of us that are in business or have been in business or farm, that it takes a certain amount of capital and it takes a certain amount of working capital and it takes a certain amount of financing to run an operation throughout any kind of any given year.

So it also does, Madam Speaker, for government, and government must periodically put in place interim financing and/or funding, and periodically, as our system of government has run so far, government will borrow way beyond their means to repay. That, of course, means that you are going to have to raise taxes.

3800 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 11, 1995 When interest rates start assuming up to 50 percent of our tax revenues, up to $640 million a year, it becomes apparent that we are certainly simply not serving the general public and the best interests of the general public.

When those monies, had we run a balanced ship, had we assumed that our financial responsibilities were as they are in any private business, that you had to meet your debt obligations periodically and regularly, simply means that we would not have accumulated the huge debt and consequently the huge interest cost that we are now having to assume.

If you look at our health care system, our education system, our social welfare system, our family services system and all the other processes and services that governments provide, it does not take much to assume that if we could spend those $650 million to provide those services instead of giving it to the banks or financial institutions, it would certainly serve the people in this province in a better manner than we have in the past.

Manitoba has run a deficit for two decades, and we have simply not been immune as a government from the deficit kind of budgeting, because we had to assume the huge interest costs and because we had to assume that huge debt that was foisted upon us by previous governments. Initially this was not a serious problem.

When government first started borrowing money, it was not a serious problem, because the interest costs were small in relation to revenue and, of course, everybody knew and everybody heard and listened to the economists that said at the time that, you know, governments do not really need to balance their budgets, governments can keep on borrowing and borrowing, assuming that the total net worth of a country or a province in fact is able to provide the security that international financial institutions will require of them.

That of course is where the dilemma starts because, over the time deficits were piled up, deficits created a huge debt on which hundreds of millions of dollars of annual interest payments had to be made, and this put tremendous pressure on resources available to service, and created pressures in the form of higher taxation. It also made it much more difficult, virtually impossible to balance the budget, assuming that $640 million had to be paid annually to pay interest costs to banks and financial institutions.

Therein lies the dilemma, and that is why in 1988 the Filmon government began to implement an economic renewal strategy. I know that the opposition members very often shook in their boots, when we talked about economic fiscal responsibility, balancing budgets, not spending more than what your income was. The government recognized that responsible taxation and spending are essential ingredients for economic growth and jobs. Sound fiscal management means getting control of growing debt load and reducing the drain of interest payments. This requires simply balancing your budget.

Then, of course, Manitobans have told us that they are unwilling and unable to pay higher taxes. I think each and every one of us in this Chamber, during the last election campaign, faced the electorate, and they said: No more taxation, we have had it up to here with taxation, we cannot afford any more.

We agree with that, Madam Speaker, the members on the government side of the House know what that means and concur with that thinking, and I say to you, ladies and gentlemen, that is why the Progressive Conservative Party was elected to govern in the future, and I think we will govern in the future for many years to come.

I would even go so far, Madam Speaker, to invite members opposite, if they would choose to be on the governing side of this House, to cross the floor and join us, because we will, after passing this legislation, in fact abide by what the legislation says and adhere to the promises that were made in spite of what the opposition members are saying continually. We will adhere to the legislation. We will abide by the rules of the legislation and the principles of debt pay-down and balancing our fiscal house.

The legislation is relatively simple, and I know that some honourable members, when I spoke last on this issue, questioned our ability to in fact come to a

October 11, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3801 balanced position without borrowing huge amounts of money. I reiterate what I said at the time: this legislation will not stop government from borrowing money as long as it can demonstrate to the financial institutions a repayment scheme, and, if it cannot, if for some reason it cannot demonstrate that, it must then go to the general public, in other words, the people who own and control the purse strings, and ask permission through a referendum. I would suspect that that is one of the difficulties that the opposition members have with this, No. 1.

They will no longer be allowed to just raise taxes without asking the general public, and I think that is the fear they have, Madam Speaker. I would suggest to you that if the honourable members look very carefully at the legislation, they would find that in

Section 2, the beginning was 1995-96 year, the government must insure each year that spending is no greater than the revenue. It is fairly simple that there must be a Fiscal Stabilization Fund established by 199 8-by 1988 -which was established in 198 8-and will play an important role in maintaining the budget in balance. Money may be drawn down from the fund if necessary to make up the revenue shortfall, and I think that is what is important about this legislation. This demonstrates clearly that government will operate its financial house as we do our own home budgets.

In other words, when you have some inadvertent income, you will put it in a savings account, draw the interest, make the savings account grow. Then, when you face inadvertent reductions in revenue, you can in fact take money out of the savings account and pay down the debt that would be incurred through monies that you have saved and therefore no longer require large payments of interest to financial institutions, and then providing better services, Madam Speaker, to our general public. *

(1600) Madam Speaker: Order, please. The hour being 4 p.m., when this matter is again before the House, the honourable member for Emerson (Mr. Penner) will have 13 minutes remaining. The hour being 4 p.m., as previously agreed, private members' hour. PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS PROPOSED RESOLUTIONS Res. 26-Recycling Mr. David Newman (Riel): I have a resolution to be moved by myself and seconded by the member for_ Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed).

WHEREAS the government of Manitoba has demonstrated a solid commitment to the provision of recycling services for Manitobans and the reduction of waste by 50 percent by the year 2000; and

WHEREAS recycling has been proven to have unmistakable positive effects upon the sustainability of our environment; and

WHEREAS Manitobans have a right to clean and healthy communities now and in future years; and

WHEREAS the principle of "distributor responsibility" was recommended as a key element of Manitoba's waste reduction strategy by the Recycling Action Committee; and

WHEREAS the objectives of the Stewardship Program are to maximize the reduction, reuse and recycling of designated products and materials; to hold distributors of products and materials with the potential to become waste in Manitoba responsible for the costs of managing those wastes, and to provide stable, long term funding commitments to support municipal recycling programs. THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba applaud the efforts of the government of Manitoba to ensure the future sustainability of Manitoba's resources; and BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Legislative Assembly urge the government of Manitoba to continue with its existing commitment to the Product Stewardship program. (Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair)

3802 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October II , I995 Motion presented. Mr. Newman: It is with a considerable amount of pleasure that I stand to move this resolution. My background in the world of law included, during the last three years of my career in private practice, an involvement in part as an educator in environmental matters, particularly of the management community, but also of consumers and the general public. Before coming into elected office, I had a very positive impression of the initiatives that had been formulated by this government.

The sustainable development of this strategy of this province is a long-term and, I submit, model approach which is the envy of many other jurisdictions in the world far beyond Canada. Wherever I was in Canada, wherever I was in the world, I always took great pride in the initiatives here and the leadership shown in an area which is fraught with complexity and demands the highest knowledge that human beings can muster, objective information and mature decision making in order to be the sorts of stewards of our environment which we as human beings in this world have a responsibility, I would submit again, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, is the responsibility that human beings have on this Earth. Economic development is something which is a Siamese twin to protection of the environment. Neither can be separated from the other. The survival and enhancement of life of all kinds on earth depends on a harmonized approach to both. The concept of sustainable development attempts to achieve precisely that.

This resolution is a component of the sustainable development strategy and one that has advanced again as a model for other jurisdictions in the world, has advanced to a stage where there is implementation, a specific goal and the implementation is moving towards that specific goal at a pace which has considerable merit. This resolution deals with that aspect of waste minimization. It deals with the goal of sustainable development.

Behind that goal in that specific area are a number of principles and guidelines which have been put together in literature which I commend to all members of this Legislature to read and understand. One of those is towards developing a sustainable development strategy for Manitobans; another is the feedback on that, What You -Told Us, principles and guidelines, Towards a Sustainable Development Strategy for Manitobans, and the specific workbook which deals with this issue of this resolution, Solid Waste Minimization and Management, which was just released this July.

The background to these sorts of documents coming into being is a long and deep one involving considerable consultation throughout the province, something that is difficult to achieve in other jurisdictions. We in this province find it challenging but doable, and this has been a good, practical example of how well co-operative efforts can work. When we put the trust and faith in the individual human beings in this province and their groupings, it is amazing the positive results that can come out, which, as I say, are deserving of pride in an international way.

The specific resolution on recycling has a background to it, and I will share that with members of this House. The Recycling Action Committee was established in June '89 to make recommendations to the Minister of Environment on how the province could meet a goal of reducing the amount of solid waste generated in the province by 50 percent by the year 2000. This was a specific goal. It is still there. The committee's action plan was published May I990, following an extensive public consultation process. The report identified 56 recommendations, including the concept of distributor responsibility.

The WRAP Act was promulgated August I990, formerly a signing responsibility for waste reduction to distributors and manufacturers of products with a potential to become waste. The WRAP Strategy Report was released March I99I, outlining the process to be undertaken to establish a recycling and waste reduction infrastructure in Manitoba. The beverage container and packaging regulation was the first regulation enacted under The WRAP Act

October 11, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3803 in 1992. This regulation set targets for the beverage industry to attain and establish penalties for nonachievement. Penalties fo r 1995-96 were waived due to beverage sector commitment to the stewardship initiative. Since 1990, over $5 million has been invested in a 190 recycling and waste management projects throughout the Sustainable Development Innovations Fund.

A key fo cus in developing Manitoba's recycling infrastructure was the promotion of regional recycling networks in which municipalities and community groups can share resources and market recyclable materials co-operatively. The Used Tire Management Program was initiated in May 1993, providing recycling credits to tire processors manufa cturing products from used tires. *

(1610) In July '93, the Province of Manitoba entered into negotiations with the Canadian Industry Packaging and Stewardship Initiative, an association of major Canadian manuf acturers, brand owners, retailers and beverage companies to establish an industry-lead province-wide program to support municipal recycling eff orts. In April 1994, negotiations were terminated with CIPSI. Outstanding issues included the level of financial liability to the municipal governments, level of accountability control, available funding from industry.

Amendments to The WRAP Act were made in July '94 in order to proceed with the establishment of arm's length preparations to manage waste reduction plans and administer funds . The Manitoba Product Stewardship program was launched in June of 1994. The program provides funding support to municipal governments to cover up to 80 percent of the net cost of multimaterial recycling programs and will support market development for recyclable materials in the province. A multistakeholder implementation committee was established August 1994 to assist the Department of Environment to design and implement the MPSP.

A 2- cent WRAP levy was introduced on beverage containers supplied in Manitoba in January 1995. All revenues collected are ·administered by the multimaterial stewardship board. The multimaterial stewardship interim measures, regulation and the tire stewardship regulation were enacted March 1995, establishing both the multimaterial stewardship board and the tire stewardship board. The workbook I referred to earlier on solid waste minimization and management was issued fo r comment July 1995 by the Manitoba Round Table on Environment and Economy.

This strategy will be incorporated into the province's sustainable development strategy. This background shows the effort in an evolving way that has to be utilized, has to be gone through, to move fo rward. That eff ort has been undertaken and now we are at a stage where this program is generating not only economic development and economic benefits, but has also involved municipalities to an extent which is very significant because of the incentives that have been off ered. The waste generation in the province has decreased by 20 percent since the introduction of The WRAP Act in 1990.

In 1989, each person in Manitoba was producing one tonne of waste . In 1994, this has decreased to .8 tonnes per person. Community-based eff orts have fo rmed the fo undation for recycling in Manitoba and will continue to play an important role in future developments. Over 200 organizations and businesses are involved in collecting and recycling materials from the waste stream. Changes are occurring as a result of new investment out of the Manitoba Product Stewardship program. Recycling eff orts are shifting from a volunteer-based system to a market-based system providing fo r improved business opportunities.

Since 1990, over $5 million has been invested in 190 recycling and waste management projects through the Sustainable Development Innovations Fund. This

38 04 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 11, 1995 investment has supported the development of Manitoba's recycling infrastructure-! emphasize the word "infrastructure"-while the stewardship initiative was being developed.

The goals of Manitoba's Waste Minimization and Management Strategy released for public discussion in July 1995 are: to promote waste reduction, maximize the reuse of goods and materials and enhance opportunities for recycling throughout the province; to promote reduction in the amount of resources used and generated in the manufacture and distribution of products; to enhance awareness and understanding of the need for waste reduction, the potential for the reuse and recycling of products and by-products and the cost of waste disposal; to promote the development of sustainable recycling and waste management industries.

Manitoba has moved forward in supporting these goals through the implementation of the Manitoba Product Stewardship Program and other stewardship initiatives to establish a sustainable collection and recycling infrastructure in the province. Product stewardship means that industry must take more responsibility for the environmental impact of the packaging or product they sell.

This responsibility includes: designing packaging and products using the three R principles, reduce, reuse, recycle; developing partnerships to divert materials from landfills; purchasing recovered materials and using them to make new products and ensuring that packaging and products are handled properly if they need disposal. In the case of recycling, it was clearly identified that Manitobans felt that the costs of recycling should be covered, not through taxation and public money, but instead incorporated in the prices of the things we buy.

The Manitoba Product Stewardship Program was established to provide up to 80 percent funding assistance to municipalities for the operation of recycling programs. This fund, which is operated by a stakeholder board independent of government, uses the levies that are collected from the sale of beverage containers. There has been a great expansion of municipal recycling efforts throughout the province. The board is responsible for administering the revenues raised by the 2-cent WRAP levy on beverage containers. All revenues raised are dedicated to supporting waste reduction efforts in Manitoba.

Since introduction of the beverage container levy in January 1995, over $3 million has been collected. Manitoba municipalities have made tremendous progress implementing recycling systems. This has been achieved without mandatory requirements to establish recycling systems. Participation in the MPSP is voluntary. In conclusion, the MPSP has provided the necessary incentives to encourage 97 municipalities, including the City of Winnipeg, to initiate or expand recycling efforts. This includes 70 percent of municipalities with a population greater than 5,000.

When these systems are fully implemented, comprehensive recycling systems will be available to over 80 percent of Manitoba households. In addition, two First Nations communities have also registered with the program. It is noteworthy that this program is working, and it is having an impact which has resulted in tangible, positive, immeasurable gains in this challenge under the Sustainable Development Initiative. This resolution, I submit, should be supported by all members of this Legislature because it is for the benefit of us all on the short and the long term. Thank you for listening. Mr.

Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Mr. Deputy Speaker, first of all, I want to begin by thanking the member opposite for bringing forward this resolution, sponsoring this resolution. It is very seldom that the government has over the years brought forward any resolutions on the environment, which I think is probably a very sober testimony to this government's concerns regarding the environment.

The only ones, in fact, who have brought forward environmental resolutions are from this side of the House, whether it is the Red River cleanup-and I brought that one forward, a private member's resolution, and it was debated here in the House. The government at that time, they had a chance to demonstrate their commitment to the environment in a very tangible way by supporting that resolution, bringing it to a vote.

October 11, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3805 Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Selkirk might not be aware, but we are dealing with Resolution 26 which was brought fo rward by the honourable member for Riel (Mr. Newman), not the member's resolution which was brought fo rward last year. The honourable member for Selkirk, to continue. Mr. Dewar: He was calling fo r our support, and I was just demonstrating in the past where the government would not support some of our resolutions. Whether it is the sensitivity which is demonstrated today by the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) when it comes to First Nations and the establishment of provincial parks, the lack of leadership of this government concerning waste management-and the member across mentioned the issue of waste management, saying the capital region or the proposed BFI landfill site in Rosser. In fa ct, this government has shown no leadership so far in the issue of waste management, but getting back to this particular resolution-[interjection] Well, the member fo r Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) is raising some comments about recycling. I would say, well, the Liberals are very good at recycling.

They recycle all the policies brought fo rward by our party. They get their photocopiers running, and they pump out that stuff , recycle all of our ideas. That is basically the whole philosophy fo r the Liberals behind the issue of recycling. We fe el that the program is long overdue. I would suggest that the only reason the program was announced was the fa ct that there was a provincial election on the horizon. The government knew that they had no credibility on the issue of the environment, and so, just prior to the election, they rushed this program fo rward.

They needed to green its image before it fac ed the electorate, so they brought the program fo rward in January of this past year. They started to collect the 2 cents levy, as it is called, with no board of directors, no mechanism to report in place. They rushed this program through, as I stated earlier, because of the election. *

(1620) We on this side of House raised concerns that this government is receiving close to $400,000 per month from the levy. We were concerned that they were going to take this money and put it into another pre election slush fund, like they did, of course, with the lottery fund. They took that -$200-some-odd million, hid it away, and it is only because the Provincial Auditor reported it that Manitobans discovered that, well, they are using it to balance their budget. There are many Manitobans who were paying for this program for many months. They were actually paying for a program that did not exist.

We also raised the fa ct that this government is using this 2 cent levy as a tax grab. They will realize close to $300,000 per year, as will the fe deral government, because of this program. This is the administration that has claimed in this House that they do not tax, but here is another example of this government sneaking in a tax on the citizens of the province. One day the minister says he was off ended by this action and the next day, of course, he backtracked on that issue.

I have a receipt here from Canada Safeway where an item was purchased and there was the enviro levy of 2 cents on that item, and that item was then taxed. The enviro levy was taxed realizing revenues fo r the members opposite, close to $300,000 a year from this sneaky little Tory tax. [interjection] The members opposite asked me to table it. Well, if they want a copy of it, just go to your Canada Safeway and buy a product, and you will have an example right in front you. If you wish you can get this if you want from any Safeway store in the province, a clear example of a tax by the members opposite.

The previous speaker mentioned in his speech the fact that the government decided to waive fines imposed upon soft drink companies here in the province. It has been estimated that that could be up as high a million dollars, a million dollars that this government will not collect from its corporate friends. We hear, in this House, the government stand up day in, day out, say they have no money fo r emergency wards, they have no money fo r fo od allowance for individuals on social assistance, but here is an example for the members opposite to realize some additional

3806 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 11, 1995 revenues by simply fo rcing the companies that have not met their waste reduction targets, and they were penalized by the government to meet those penalties. I want to quote from a press release issued by the government, July 31, 1992. I quote: Cummings said, if targets are not met, distributors will fa ce financial penalties. They were penalized $863 ,000. That amount has probably gone up now to well over a million dollars, the big soft drink companies here in this province.

The government has not gone after those companies to collect those fines from those companies. It could be perhaps that those companies have a very special relationship with the members opposite. If you were to look and I have, I received informa tion regarding political contributions to the Progressive Conservative Party. Since 1988 to 1992, Blackwoods Beverages, which manufactures Pepsi-Cola products, and the Coca-Cola Bottling company have donated close to $16,000 to the members opposite. They have a very special relationship with the beverage industry, I would suggest.

That may be one of the reasons why they have not been very aggressive in trying to realize those penalties, to collect those penalties from some of these big beverage companies. Someone also argued that a fo rmer employee from the Premier's Office, who is now a private consultant, had something to do with it as well, but I will leave that to the imagination of the members opposite. We do not want to be completely negative on this side of the House, we want to bring fo rward some suggestions. In 1989, the NDP established a task fo rce on the environment, and one of the reports dealt with the issue of recycling.

They recommended at that time, in 1989, that there be a reduction of 75 percent of waste reduced by the year 2000. The government's goal is 50 percent based on 1988 figur es. Our recommendations were up to 7 5 percent. Canadians recycle on average only 2 percent of the waste compared to the United States, which recycled 10 percent, and the Japanese recycled between 50 percent and 60 percent of their waste. It is my understanding that in Japan waste disposal sites are illegal. At that time, we proposed that Manitoba use a phase reduction of 25 percent by 1993, 50 percent by 1996 and 75 percent by the year 2000.

I would assume the government is on its way to meeting its targets, and we hope they are. We hope they do reach that 50 percent by the year 2000. It is in the best interest of all of Manitoba that they do meet that goal. As well, I want to offer some ways to them, offer some suggestions to them to meet that goal. One of them is the substitution of renewable resources fo r nonrenewable resources, an aggressive move to what is called the fo ur Rs of Recycling and that is reduce, reuse, recycle and recover. Now the Minister of Environment (Mr.

Cummings) knows, and I have met with the individual, and I believe the Minister of Environment has met with a group of individuals here in Manitoba, who have a proposal which they claim can recycle 80 percent of the waste that finds itself into Manitoba's landfill sites-80 percent. They have also expressed to us that the minister, the government has not taken their proposal seriously. Eighty percent of the waste can be recycled according to their proposal.

It is a proposal of a plan that is currently in use in certain jurisdictions in the United States, and I believe in Minnesota and apparently it is quite successful. I think the government should look at that issue very seriously. The Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Reimer), he is the one that has to deal with the City of Winnipeg. The city of Winnipeg of course creates the most waste in our province. I attended the CEC hearings on waste management in the capital region. I attended those hearings, and they were quite interesting. I learned a lot about waste management in general.

I think the Mini ster of Environment-of course, he was not there. The Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Reimer) did not participate in that either. It is a big issue. It is an issue that requires some very serious solutions. [interjection] Well, you could talk to your colleague the Minister of Environment, he apparently has met with the individuals, and they have explained the program to

October 11, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3807 him. It is simply a far more aggressive recycling program, recovery program, where they would bring the waste forward and, as explained to me, it would simply go down a conveyer belt. All the things would be taken off of this belt and put into certain compartments, and then they would find a use for them. Paper, of course-glass would be crushed and used for different purposes. So there are a number of different ways that this program can be utilized through Manitoba.

I also would suggest that the government establish an environmental auditor to provide an assessment of the program in reducing waste and meeting the government's current goal, which they have not. The auditor, I would argue, should report back to this Chamber so members have a chance to look at the auditor's statements, to as well question the government to ensure that the government was meeting its goal, which we have not been able to do at this point. They have not offered us a statement yet as to whether or not they will be meeting that goal by the year 2000.

Here is another suggestion: a government procurement and contract compliance policy which favours purchase of material using recycled contents. I would think, as well, a more aggressive conservation and recycling awareness program, we have not seen that yet. The city of Winnipeg, now they will be having curbside recycling, but that will only reach 30 percent of the residents of the city of Winnipeg, yet they have been paying this 2-cent levy since January 1.

The government has collected millions of dollars, but only 30 percent of the city of Winnipeg residents will now have a chance to use that recycling program. *

(1630) Overall, I realize we must change our thinking on the whole issue of waste management, and that deals more, I think, with our consumer-based society. Generally it is cheaper for manufacturers to use lots of materials and so thereby they cater to our culture of convenience and of consumption, planned obsolescence, rather than to spend the time redesigning their products for efficiency, durability and repairability. Consumers, of course,. have had very little incentive to save the goods they buy instead of throwing them away after one use, and we all know this. We all realize this.

You go to McDonald's and you get a bag and the thing is just there for once. You only use it once. We have to learn, I suggest, to depend on fewer virgin resources and thereby encourage development of secondary industries, reining in consumption by redesigning goods, services and communities. In fact, the environmental cost of waste disposal, and we know this now and we are seeing it again here in the province, whether it is toxic emissions or the poisoning of ground water by landfills, it must be stopped, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member's time has expired. Mr.

Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Deputy Speaker, certainly my experience here has been that the longer I stay quiet, the quieter the House will get. So I am prepared to wait you out, on my side also, I might add. I am pleased to stand and speak in regard to the resolution put forth today. I would like to just bring to the attention of the people in the House I guess who at some time will maybe read this, but the people of rural Manitoba have long been recyclers.

I think some mention has to be made about the fact that I can remember growing up as a child, living with my family and also very close to an aunt and uncle who lived on a rural farm, and there was not anything that we did not recycle. Anything that came home in a box, a tin or a bag or any kind of a wrapper, we always found another alternative way to use it again until it was basically, I guess, garbage, but garbage is not the right word because of the idea that it was a recyclable refinished product. I can think of a couple of examples that I have had that I can remember.

One was the tins they used to bring the tea home in, and after the plastic bag in the bottom of the tin was empty we would quite often use the plastic bags to store things to keep them dry if they were going into the freezers or into the deepfreezes. Then eventually when they were taken back out again

3808 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October II , I9 95 we would put those same plastic bags on our feet and they would keep us warm for a couple of days until they basically had worn themselves out. We found that it was a very economical way, and also, at that point in time, I guess we did not realize that we were on the leading edge of technology as far as the recycling.

I certainly, by reading today's resolution and listening to the speeches that have so far come forth on it, think we are all in agreement that recycling is a very positive aspect of our communities and is something that on both sides of the House we have to encourage and promote. I think also that coming from an agricultural background I think that probably the farmer can be held up in light to pretty near anybody in the world as probably the No. I recycler and the original recycler.

We were speaking last night, and I know some honourable members opposite were at the same meeting, where just as an example, Can Agra, that is coming to Ste. Agathe, made their announcement. They are using the recycling idea and taking every available product that is produced and generated from the waste and trying to recycle it into something else that is profitable, that is beneficial to the communities, that creates jobs. The list is endless of the things that we can do.

Again, getting back into the farm idea, and it has been tradition that after the crop comes up, the harvest is done and the silage or the stalk is worked back into the ground, again, another form of recycling. A lot of people with animals tend to spread the waste that is there that produces a little benefit to the land. I do recognize that there are some things that we have to consider when doing this as far as the environmentally friendly aspect of it, but I do think that, again, farmers are the people that have led the way, and it should be recognized by everyone that this is the way they have gone for years.

Now, as governments and as people, we are becoming more and more aware. It is not unusual when you see-and, again, coming from rural Manitoba to the city, I am very pleased when I see the recycle boxes out in the communi ties. I think it is a real positive step for people to become very concerned with the waste and the disposal of waste and the secondary uses that waste can be generated into. I think again back to my childhood, the only thing that was left when we were done with an orange was the seed, and they tried to plant that in the backyard and get it to grow. It was pretty well IOO percent used.

In recognizing the fact that recycling is now a very important issue with government and with the people of Manitoba, I think that also the things have changed in the sense that some of this has to be looked at as far as: How do we fmance it; how do we maintain and how do we make it better; and how do we make it grow so that more people will use it and more people will benefit from it? As noted earlier by the honourable member for Riel (Mr.

Newman), the Manitoba Product Stewardship program was launched in June of '94, and it provided funding support to the municipal governments to cover up to the 80 percent of the net cost of multima terial recycling programs. It encouraged and it was an incentive for all municipalities and all people of the province of Manitoba to get involved.

The incentive was there financially for the municipal governments and local councils to take a real interest, and I think a lot of those interests were led by individuals in the community who had a real belief in recycling and a real desire to get more people educated and also more people into the program. The 2-cent WRAP levy was int roduced on beverage containers applied in Manitoba in I995, and all those revenues collected are adminis trated by this multima terial stewardship board.

So, therefore, we are definitely, I guess, asking people to pay a little bit towards the cost of the recycling, but we are also asking them to contribute and learn and benefit from the program that is being made available to them by those additional costs. The workbook on Solid Waste Minimi zation and Management was issued for comment in I995, and the strategy will be incorporated into the province's Sustainable Development Fund. -

October 11 , 19 95 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3809 * (16 40) I think that the real idea behind recycling and getting people educated in recycling and getting them to understand the benefits is the fact that what we can do is try and decrease the waste that is generated by the people ofthe province. Since 19 90, we have seen a waste generation decrease of approximately 20 percent. It just astounds me when I look at some of these numbers that in 19 89 each person in Manitoba was producing one tonne of waste.

In 1994, that has decreased to .8 tonnes per person, and I believe that that is a positive step for Manitoba and also will be a positive step for the future of Manitobans, because we are taking responsible steps and we are taking action to benefit all people of the province. I think that some of the things that I have heard discussed today is in fact that we have levied some costs on the people who are producing the recyclable material or the material that we are using. I think that is the way to go.

If people are producing the waste and we have to set up a system to deal with it, then I believe that they should pay some, the consumer should pay some and obviously the government is contributing its share. Since 1990 over $5 million has been invested in 19 0 recycling and waste management projects. Again I think that this speaks very well for the province of Manitoba. People are becoming educated. People are becoming knowledgeable, and they are promoting it. Getting back into my own personal situation, our family is very cognizant of the need to recycle.

It is something that you do not understand until your family brings it home to you. An Honourable Member: Recycling cars. Mr. Tweed: The honourable member mentions about recycling cars which is something that in my profession before here I would like to suggest that the company that we dealt with were making cars of 80 percent recycled goods. I think they have made some big steps in promoting the recycled portion of it.

The goals of the Manitoba Waste Minimization and Management Strategy released for public discussion in July of 19 95 were to promote waste reduction, maximize the reuse of goods and materials and enhance opportunities for recycling. I firmly believe that those things are happening. We have seen a reduction in the amount of waste that is now being produced. We have far more people in the province of Manitoba reusing goods and materials, and we have certainly seen a growth of the recycling industry in the province and probably Canada-wide.

One of the other objectives was to promote reduction in the amount of resources used and generated in the manufacture and distribution of products. Again I think that has been a successful strategy. One of the other recommendations was that we need to enhance awareness and the understanding of the need for waste reduction. Again it is something that once people become aware of it and are brought to light, it is like anything else. When you recognize that there is a need, then it is easier to promote as a government or as an individual.

One of the other things was to promote the development of sustainable recycling and waste management industries. I believe also that that recommendation is definitely on its way. There have certainly been some initiatives to establish a sustainable collection and recycling infrastructure in the province. Product stewardship means that industry must take more responsibility for the environmental impact of the packaging and products that they sell. It would include designing packaging and products using the three principles: reduce, reuse, recycle.

We have to develop partnerships to divert materials from landfills, purchasing recovered materials and using them to make new products and ensuring that packaging and products are handled properly. In the case of recycling it was clearly identified that Manitobans felt the cost of recycling should not be

3810 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 11 , 19 95 covered through taxation and public money but instead incorporate it into the things that we buy and sell. The Manitoba Product Stewardship program was established earlier this year to provide the 80 percent funding, and it is operated as a stakeholder board independent of government use. Something else that this has encouraged and again speaks more directly to my issues is the fact that the municipalities and the rural councils that are promoting the recycling efforts.

I am not sure of the numbers, but I would think in pretty near every community that I represent in Turtle Mountain I am sure that there are recycling activities going on. I think it is only in our best interest to encourage them. In closing, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I would like to suggest to you that I do support the resolution put forth by the honourable member for Riel (Mr. Newman), and I think that we as members of the government and members of the House have to agree on a policy and put forth to the people of Manitoba and ask that you support it. I think it is something that we can all agree on.

There are a few fine details that I am sure we are always going to have discrepancies, but it is something that we could probably pass together. The MPSP has provided all the necessary incentives to encourage, and now I do have the number. There are 97 municipalities including the city of Winnipeg that are initiating or expanding recycling efforts. When these systems are fully implemented, comprehensive recycling systems will be available to over 80 percent of the people in the province ofManitoba. In addition, two First Nations communities have also registered with the program.

Should market prices falter for specific materials, the stewardship program will be there to provide the stability to ensure that the cost of the program does not fall back to the municipal governments. Other stewardship initiatives and something that I have become more involved in is the Manitoba tire stewardship program, Used Tire Management Program, that was established in May of 1993. It is setting the example for other tire stewardship programs in Canada. The program provides recycling credits of up to $2.50 per tire to registered processors that recycle scrap tires into new products.

I believe Manitoba is one of the most successful in that sense with the company- Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member's time has expired. · Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Mr. Deputy Speaker, it is almost entertaining to hear these resolutions come to the floor of the House. I mean, we heard some real doozies. I think there was one on youth crime a little while ago, one on maintenance enforcement. The government and these backbenchers come in here and they give these self-congratulatory messages, and every time when they are finished, they think: Geez, I do not think we should have done that.

Quite frankly, we got a little embarrassed. Our record really was not as good as I think we had imagined. Here is another one of those resolutions. I think actually this resolution, like so many others that we hear, make a fool of this government. I know that the remarks of the member for Riel (Mr. Newman) were very interesting in that he had heard outside of this House and before he became a member of how good the government's record was on environmental protection and sustainability.

I think he did what I hope not many other Manitobans have done, and that is base their thinking of this government's record on certain documents produced, because the written word of this government and the track record of this government are two entirely different matters. It really is almost entertaining to read the first RESOLVED clause, which says that the government of Manitoba should be applauded on its efforts to ensure the future sustainability of Manitoba's resources.

I mean, here is the government, when every time in this Chamber we raise real concerns about sustainable development of our resources, this government will start chattering from its benches, oh, you are against jobs, and that alone speaks louder than any of the documents ever produced by this government, and by the way, I have seen some good documents myself There is some good stuff written down, but those words ,-

October 11 , 19 95 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 38 11 have never been endorsed by the members opposite, and time and time again we hear them: oh, you are against jobs, you are against jobs, there you go again. * (1 650) You know, it is really unfortunate, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that with such an important issue, a moral issue such as this, the government should be endorsing any concern about sustainability, whether it comes from this side of the House or from the Liberals or any quarter in this province. Well, I also was very heartened by the remarks of the member for Selkirk (Mr.

Dewar), because I think in seven minutes he put forward more ideas about sustainability than we have seen from this government in seven years. Well, I first want to talk about the issue of-[in terjection] Come on, I have only a few minutes. Mr. Deputy Speaker, the second part of the RESOLVED deals with the recycling program of the government. · Well, the recycling program is, in general, commendable, but there is a lot at stake in ensuring that Manitoba have a comprehensive and effective recycling program.

To succeed, the government had to do two things: It had to be fair, and No. 2, it had to competent, and on both of those counts the government has failed. I mean, after years of bungling and dithering, while we had the worst recycling record here in the City of Winnipeg in all of Canada, and I understand actually in all of North America-! have seen statistics to that effect-this government fell down again and again. I want to then talk, though, about what occurred when finally the WRAP program was introduced, I mean finally after all of these years.

First of all, the program put an onus on taxpayers to fund 20 percent of recycling initiatives. I cannot understand why the government would require the taxpayers to fund recycling. Second of all, there was no guarantee, given that 20 percent, that the taxpayers would not be on the hook for more in future times. The government went about this recycling program through regulation not through legislation, and once again we see this continuing power grabbing by executive governments, a continual turning the back on legislative authority.

While that is, I think, problematic in itself, it also causes concern for the municipalities. Yes, it is 80 percent-20 percent right now; 80 percent to be paid by the municipalities and 20 percent by the taxpayers-SO percent, I am sorry, by the consumers and 20 percent by the municipalities, but wliat will happen down the road? Municipalities are concerned about getting into recycling projects without a long-term commitment in legislation. Now, this was a real doozie. You know, the Minister of Environment (Mr.

Cummings), when he was confronted with the fact that it was the consumers who were being assessed the 2-cent levy on each beverage container by a direct levy, the minister said-I am quoting the minister, and I hope that this quote is accurate; I trust that he will correct it if is wrong. He said, quote: Somebody is blowing smoke when they say they have to pass on a 2-cent increase, given those kinds of margins for marketing. In other words, the minister said, this is terrible; I mean, how can the likes of Coke and Pepsi be passing on the 2-cent levy directly to consumers? That is what he said.

Now that was on Thursday. Now, what did he say by Friday? I am just quoting from the Winnipeg Free Press, and this is January 28: On Thursday, Environment minister Glen Cummings lashed out at retailers, saying he was offended. They are breaking out the levy separately and charging sales tax on top. I will get to that in a minute about sales tax, but then they quote Jim Leishman [phonetic] of Coca-Cola and denied there was any commitment by the soft drink industry to swallow the levy. Mr. Leishman [phonetic] is quoted as saying: Right from the beginning, it was clear that we were going to pass that levy along.

Well, whom are Manitobans to believe, the industry that was involved in these negotiations and involved in the discussions in the creation of this program or the minister? Now, there is, on top of the 2-cent levy being paid for directly by consumers, the PST and the GST, which my colleague spoke about. Now, we estimate that roughly $300,000 a year will be received by the provincial government alone with that tax grab, and the

3812 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 11 , 19 95 federal government will receive a same amount. Well, to me, this is a tax on a tax. I understand there is a term; it is called "cascadin g." I think this is wrong. I think it could be illegal, and I have not done the legal research on this, but I will tell you what, it is offensive. It is offensive to be charging a tax on this levy. Now, the minister, he had a few interesting things to say about that. The minis ter said, and I quote: The levy it self is not a taxable item. There is no intention on the part of the government to earn revenue on it.

He said, I am offended the way the retailers are choosing to display thi s. Oh, he is offended; he is really offended by this. Well, it is interesting, you know, because Canada Safeway, for example, and Foodfare, which have both charged PST and GST on the levy, along with other retailers, did so only after checking with the minister's department. Paul McKinnon, from Foodfare on Henderson Highway, said: They said that is the way it is supposed to be done. Whom are we to believe, the retailers who are being told one thing by the Environment department or the minister when he is in front of a microphone?

Now, we are listing some doozies here, but this really is the king. This is it. Who paid for the start-up of the WRAP program? Who paid for the start-up of the recycling program? The minister would like people to believe, the government would like people to believe that it was them, somebody else-retai lers, manufacturers. While Manitobans, while consumers were paying $400,000 a month on the 2-cent levy, this government was talking to their friends, the likes of Coke and Pepsi, relieving them of over $1 million in penalties that were assessed against them for their failure to meet recycling targets.

Now, this is not just an isolated incident, Mr. Deputy Speaker. This is an integral part of this government's ideology, of its approach. Ding the taxpayer, ding the consumer, but their friends-and my colleague here from Selki rk (Mr. Dewar) spoke about the apparent relationship between this government and the likes of Coke and Pepsi and about the involvement of former senior officers with the Premier's office and what advice or what lobbying may have taken place. Manitobans find it disgusting. What a message that is to Manitobans. What a pitiful, pitiful sight that was.

Now, we have sent two letters to the Provincial Auditor and we have detailed seven specific questions that we need answers to, to find out about mainly the forgiveness of those penalties against the likes of Coke and Pepsi. We look forward to the responses to that, and the government has not heard the last of it. Now, I want to just speak briefly about how this program was administer ed. Was it done competently? Well, we heard from not just consumers but from the industry, we did not know what was going on. The government never told us anything. They never gave us the directives we needed. Mr.

Deputy Speaker: Order, please. The hour being 5 p.m., time is expired for this half of private members' hour. When this matter is again before the House, the honourable member will have three minutes remaining . * (1 700) Res. 27-Seasonal Jobs Strategy for Post-Secondary Students Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans),

WHEREAS the cost of post-secondary education in Canada is currently prohibiting many Manitobans from receiving the education they need; and

WHEREAS students need consistent, useful employment during the summer to help pay for the mounting costs associa ted with a post-secondary education and gain valuable work experience; and

WHEREAS youth unemployment rates are higher than those of the population as a whole, while financial assi stance to students is not keeping pace with costs; and

October 11 , 19 95 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3813

WHEREAS youth employment programs such as CareerStart, the Northern Youth Jobs Corps, Partners With Youth and STEP have been cut back or elim inated; and

WHEREAS a seasonal jobs strategy would benefit students from rural and northern Manitoba who face increased post-secondary education costs; and

WHEREAS students must increasingly choose part time studies so that they may take employment to finance their education, incre

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-1-46
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 1st hansardpdf 46.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	749a8d7307d4ee81b9c30950ca2ba50d9a636716

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