Manitoba Hansard — 30 March 1976 (Sitting 58, 30th Legislature, 3rd Session)

30-3-58

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISlATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8:00 p.m., Tuesday, March 30, 1976 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAffiS MR. CHAffiMAN: I refer the honourable members to page 45, Resolution 1761 97(a) 2, Salaries and Wages under General Administration. The Honourable Member for St. James. The honourable member has approximately ten minutes. MR. MINAKER: How many minutes? MR. CHAIRMAN: Ten minutes. MR. MINAKER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Prior to the supper break, I had made some comments with respect to the concerns that we have with the operation of the Northern Affairs Department.

I would also like to add at this time, or maybe reiterate briefly, that the Progressive Conservative Party has no objections to the goals of the department but rather with the method of administration and also the politically oriented operation of the department, and that when we do form the government in the next elec tion that we will make sure that these particular areas of political thinking and also the administration of the programs to make them more efficient, will be corrected.

Another area of concern that has been brought to my attention in my visits to the north in the last few years, is that there is a concern that there is a lack of co-ordination between the Department of Tourism and the Department of Northern Affairs, in that the Department of Tourism has gone off on a quite wide expanse, pro motion of our northern area, which is nothing wrong if it's co-ordinated.

But an instance that has been brought to our attention that tourists have arrived to go to areas where they thought there were facilities for them - I'm thinking of Leaf Rapids in particular - that have to be turned back; that the accommodations are not there when they do arrive, with great expectations that when they get there they will be welcomed, but in actual fact there's no facilities for them. People in the area have no objections to the arrival of tourists providing that the facilities are there, and providing that they themselves have facilities to enjoy the recreation that they have.

And this is one of the things that has been brought out, that the people in the north would like to have the use of the resources that are there and not sophisticated facilities that they can visit, but really camp sites and relatively simple access roads into areas where they can enjoy the summer the same as you and I do. As we know, the summers in the north are even shorter than they are here in our southern regions. This is another issue that has been brought to my attention, that the access to lakes, to campsites in the north, are limited, and particularly in the Thompson region.

They are confined to one lake resort that now has been turned into a revenue bearing park. They would like to have some say into future recreational facili ties that they can enjoy as well as tourists coming in; that the feeling that I have received is that they are not opposed to tourists coming into the north, providing that the facilities are there, and providing that it is co-ordinated with the Northern Affairs Department as well as the Tourism Department.

And that the things that happened last summer with Leaf Rapids will not re-occur, that Americans arriving from the south find that the facilities that they expected were not there, they were turned back, and their complaints and disappointments were passed onto the residents of the area.

The other points that have been brought to my attention are the fact that I be lieve in the Thompson area there's something like six agencies that are doing vocational education in the northern region, and I think with justification, that a request for co-ordination of efforts to stop duplication are I think legitimate; that we should look at this particular area of duplication and make sure that we co-ordinate our efforts, and again relating to the administration of the department.

I think that it's important again to mention that the local people of the area benefit by resource development, not only in the mining industry but as well the utiliza tion of the lakes and recreational facilities that are there. I would only like to amplify

1762 March 30, 1976 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAI RS (MR. MINAKER cont'd) •.• that again, that I think if we want the people who live in the north to stay there, people who come to the north to benefit by it - let's face it, initiative, and to better themselves - that they stay there, because it's very important that this area grows for all of Manitoba. We're being a little selfish in that statement - I think that the government realizes that, the people of Manitoba realize that that's our frontier, that's where we have the future of our province where we can develop-- (Interj ection) --Manitoba' s frontier. MR.

DILLEN: What about the people who are there? MR. MINAKER: That's what I'm saying, if the Honourable Member from Thompson would listen, that if we recognize that's where the future of the province is, that we have to recognize the people that are there. And we cannot continue with a program that creates an inferiority complex, and that's what this government is doing and I would say that the former governments have done. They have created an inferi ority complex in the north.

And why I am saying that, is that when somebody asks me, or somebody asks somebody else in Manitoba where they're from, they say they're from Morris, they say they're from Winnipeg, they say they're from Killarney, but when you ask somebody where they're from, they say we're from Northern Manitoba. In the Department of Northern Affairs, with their program, has continued to create that in feriority complex. They have made the decisions in Winnipeg. They haven't given the people in our area in the north the right to make the decision or to contribute to it, and I say it's time that this stopped.

Because to me it does not matter whether a per son is from Thompson, from Cross Lake, The Pas - the honourab le member is from The Pas - we're Manitobans, and we have to do away with that fact that there's a thought that if we're from Northern Manitoba or North of the 53rd parallel that something is wrong, because there isn't.

But as long as the government continues to legislate the way it has, continues to present its policies in the operation of the Northern Affairs Department, he will continue to create that feeling, and I hope that the Minister of Northern Affairs will recognize this fact, that there's nothing different between some body who lives south of the 53rd parallel or north of the 53rd parallel, we're all Manitobans. We all should have the right to own our own property, we're all equal. I agree lOO percent with the Member for Thompson, lOO percent. MR. CHAffiMAN: Please, the honourable member's time has expired. MR.

MINAKER: Okay. But I would hope the Minister would recognize this fact and make sure that his department would start to recognize that people whether they're north of 53rd or south of 53rd are Manitobans and have the same opportunities and rights. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate there's an opposite member standing and I am going to accede to you in a moment. I want to join the other committee for a little while and part of the difficulty is of course, when you're operating dual committees that your responsibilites are divided.

I would simply like to ask the Minister or put the Minister on notice for a concern that I have and a request that I have of him that I do not ask him to answer immediately. But I ask him to consider that and his staff to consider a full answer to it at the next sitting of this meeting. Furthermore, Mr. Chairman, what I'm going to say is probably going to be out of order because--(Interjection)--But, Mr. Chairman, I know you are a generous man and you will allow me to say that and I know the Minister will appreciate me asking this question. Mr.

Chairman, what I'm referring to is that throughout the Department of Northern Affairs there is reference made to the Canada Manitoba Northlands Agreement and it's scattered throughout the whole department. I believe in expediting the considera tions of this department. My request to the Minister is that he at his time of choosing give us an overview of that program, of that agreement and of the hopes that he has for accomplishments to be arrived at and to be successfully concluded with respect to that agreement. If you add up the dollars and cents under the Canada Northlands Agreement it

March 30, 1976 1763 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS (MR. ENNS cont'd) .•.• • does involve substantial numbers of dollars and I would ask him to take a leaf out of his colleague's book, the Minister of Agriculture, who is sitting beside him at the moment. I have an affinity for these kind of agreements. To me they're not unlike the kind of agreements arrived at in co-operation with the Federal Government with respect to my community, the Inter lake area, the FRED agreement. In that particu lar program we had very specific goals that we were seeking to arrive at. We had very specific objectives.

We had dollars very specifically, you know, dedicated to particular aspects of government programs: X number of dollars for the improvement of the educational system; X number of dollars for the improvement of land development in the Inter lake area; X number of dollars for other aspects such as drainage or the development of adult educational centres within the Interlake area. Now the Minister of Agriculture and in the Department of Agriculture we have received from time to time kind of progress reports.

I can recall receiving not so long ago a very good update brochure on the FRED program which was an excellent piece of material which gave to me at least and to those persons that received it, a pretty good understanding of how, you know, X number of funds, which were dedicated and set aside for this purpose, were in fact being used and were in fact being spent and I suppose, you know, to what extent the programs had succeeded. Now the Minister of Northern Affairs entered into this agreement a year ago or some two years ago, two years ago.

We're now approaching, you know, we're into the second or into the third year of that program and I think, Mr. Chairman, it's not un reasonable for the opposition to ask for the Minister to give us just about a ministerial statement about the Canada Northlands Agreement. Rather than ask us, Mr. Chairman, to try to pick out in the individual items that appear, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, to try to pick out, you know the kind of picayune approach as to, you know, what's happening under the Canada Northlands Agreement here, what's happening there, what's happening here. I'd like to know, Mr.

Chairman, how the Minister feels about the Canada Northlands Agreement. I mean does he feel that the ••• MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. I think we can discuss that when we get down to that item. The honourable member realizes that we are on 97(a)(2) which is Salaries and Wages, and would he confine his remarks to those please. MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman, I accept your admonition. You're always an imminently fair man. As I indicated to you, I do know the rules of the House and I suggested to you that I was probably speaking out of order to begin with.

What I was trying to do was to give notice to the Minister that in the opposition benches that we would be prepared to accept from the Minister, if he would be prepared to so respond, a kind of a general overview approach to the Canada Northlands Agreement because we think it happens to be very important. I happen to think that in Manitoba - Manitoba has been one of the few successful provinces that has managed to put together provincial and federal sharing of costs and sharing of responsibilit ies in a developmental way - and I come from a part of the country that has seen that success.

I see that success because I was part of it and be cause the government of the day and the Minister of the day carried it through and improved on it. I say that with some feeling and with some sincerity because the people of the Interlake, the people of the Interlake that left the Interlake ten years ago and came back to it today would not recognize it. And that's thanks to the co-operation of the Federal Government, the Provincial Government and the overall developmental program called FRED. The question I ask the Minister, Mr.

Chairman, is - and this is a responsibility of the Minister of Northern Affairs - is that the people of the north on whose behalf he has signed an agreement called the Canada Northlands Agreement, I would like to think that the people in the North five years from now, eight years from now, or whatever the tenure of the agreement is, will have the benefit or have the same kind of feeling that I have about that development program that took place in the Interlake. So, Mr. Chairman, I won't bend the rules any further. I simply, you know, ask

1764 March 30, 1976 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAffiS (MR. ENNS cont'd) ••••. the Minister not to feel that the opposition is not concerned about the Canada Northlands Agreement if we don't zero in on every individual item as it appears on the Estimates.

I've been asked to make this general position on the part of the opposition to ask the Minister to give us, at his time of choosing an overview of the objectives, where you're at, what kind of dollars have been spent, what do you think this Canada Northlands Agreement is going to achieve in the North, and how well on track you are as of now, the second year into the agreement? Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Flin Flan. MR. THOMAS BARROW (Flin Flan): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I certainly want to take

part in this debate and not only now but later on. I feel I should respond to some of the remarks of the northern critic. It's an improvement over the critic we had last year, the Member from Birtle-Russell. I tried to say something nice about that Member from Birtle-Russell and the best thing I can say about him, at least he shaves every day. Income in the North is varied and we know that. We know the income of the miners and the tradesmen, they're well paid people. My colleague from Thompson would tell you about the income of the native people.

When you go into incomes, you know, you're going to take in trapping and commercial fishing, it's very low. I don't know how they live on these incomes and you have a good point there and the equalization process. We're trying to solve that in various ways. It isn't easy. It isn't easy to help people who have been down-trodden for 100 years. Programs. Involve local people. Mr. Chairman, I would ask the critic to listen to this. We've been saying this since 1969 and we've gone in that direction right from that time with the Northern Task Force. We want you people to tell us.

We've said that over and over and over again. A good example is the LGD system where we went and asked them, "Do you want to govern yourselves or do you want someone appointed who govern you?" At least 90 percent wanted the right to govern themselves. It's coming, it's coming in Snow Lake; it's coming in Gillam. Cranberry Portage is in that system; they want to govern themselves. Wallace, a small little place, want to govern themselves under local government and we'll give them the opportunity for them people to have input into what happens to them. No input, no input into affairs.

We've done this in my area ever since we started. Sherridon built their own houses, their own projects by local people. All the Metis and native people have done this. A better example is Cormorant when they wanted a road and they couldn't get it because Borowski at that time had a thing against welfare. Those people, he said, don't want a road. We don't want Cormorant there. We want those people to get out. But justice prevailed in that case on a letter they wrote and what they said was this: "We want a road and you won't build it.

We will build it ourselves, except for six miles over muskeg and water areas that we can't handle. Build them six, we'll put the thirty in" That was the turning point. They were willing to help themselves and they got a road. They got a road and now they want a causeway, an expensive project. They said: "We'll cut the expense down, we will do it. " And today in Cormorant, a small remote area, it has been done. The timber's cut from their locality, sawed in their mills, and the work has been done by those people.

I had the honour of giving them a cheque for some $60,000 for that project and you never saw happier people in your life, and we're proving it; we're proving the point. Give the people the opportunity to do it and they will do it, and we're trying to impress that from away back. Important issues. The most important issues - and it isn't easy to take a people who we've knocked down and pounded them, depressed them and lost their confidence, to build them up again. It's going to cost money. I say what's money?

If they get their confidence back and enjoy their society as people, not as Metis or Indians but as people. And Latham, puts it very nice as Chief of The Pas Band, and a very honest man, he said the native, the Metis can't have the best of both worlds. If you want this take it. If you want to be in white man's society give something up. And that's what they have I

March 30, 1976 1765 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS (MR. BARROW cont'd) ••••• to do. Join our society. Be one of us. Do you think I care if a man's Ukrainian, a Jew or he's an Englishman, not a bit. A man is a man, and that's the line we have to go in. People. But it's going to be hard to do it, be cause your government from away back, and one, the Liberal Government, have pounded these people down into a depressed area - a depressed people.

A good example is the desperate people, the Eskimo in the Barren Land, 700 miles from Winnipeg, a happy people, independent people, who lived on deer and had a life of their own, and what happened to them ? The white man went in and he started a fur thing, trapped the white fox, and we will supply you with goods; we will do this and we will do that. So they left their way of life, became traders, and they shot the deer, thousands and thousands of deer for bait and eradicated the deer thing and became sub servient to the whites. And what did they get out of it?

They got flour, they got sugar, they got coffee, they got tobacco, and they got diseases, which was maybe the most important thing, diphtheria and flu - they died like thousands. Thousands of people died, and the Eskimos right in our northern country in Manitoba, and they sent missionaries in there who were more interested in souls than in bodies • They came back and they were frustrated with this. They sent a doctor from Ottawa, an expert. He came back with a great earth-shattering release, the people suff er from lice he said, people who were starving to death.

And we've done the same thing to our natives, our natives. There's no way we'll ever make it up to them, but we can try and it's going to cost money, and we'll spend it and we'll do it, eventually. Job creation, there's no point in creating jobs that's of no value. To burn brush, pick up garbage on your beaches, this is a nothing thing. We have to put them into something so a man's going to be proud when he gets home; he did this. He's drawing a cheque and he can hold his head up. These are the jobs that we will create. The only tough part about it niy honourable friend is geography. I can do it in my area.

My geography is terrific. Sherridon's on the main line. They're getting a road in there. Cormorant's on the main line. The train goes through there. They have a road so we can do it there. We can introduce lumbering, furniture building, fishing, because it's close. But Shamattawa, what do you do for those people? You know, how do you do it? They won't move for some reason; their roots are deep, and how do you help them? I know all the problems, but what I'd like to know is some answers, and if you can provide them I'll work on them .

My operation, now there is a thing, the mine, Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting, Inco, don't take them over. Don't take them over. Let's see what happens with this potash thing. Let's see what happens eventually in the Kieran's Report. I would say, take them over. You know, we have trouble raising taxes. No problem to me if I was Premier - which I will never be -- I would take over mines. If the Hudson Bay Mining Company makes $40 million a year, I would say that mine belongs to people. Inco $100 million, that mine belongs to people. There's $140 million that we don't have to tax the people for.

It's as simple as that. I woUld take over the breweries , there's a Godsend. And cigarette factories, and people would be taxed very low, maybe this is a little to the left, but I would do it. Of course .•• Pilot training: Now you say you train a man to fly a plane and you don't give him a plane to fly. That's what you said. My God, your education system- the Minis ter's not here. You know, in school I learned Latin; I've never used Latin. I've learned French; I've never used the French language yet. History leaves me cold. How many use these things?

But don't you think if a native is trained to fly a plane, something else spins off on them, cause that's what the Cranberry Portage Collegiate is all about. The education is not the most important thing; the most important thing is they learn something. They learn to mix with white people. They realize that we are not the people they think, though they might surmise we are, that we have our good points or bad points, and a lot of spin-Off. So if a man is able to fly a plane then he's able to do other things.

Maybe he has to go in the mines for awhile, or carpenter work or masonry, but eventually, you know, he will get to fly a plane if he's a dedicated pilot and the education is there, and that's what it's all about, isn't it?

1766 March 30, 1976 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS (MR. BARROW cont'

d) Useful projects, I've dealt with that. Hire practices, now there's a great thing. How do you hire and why? What motivates an employer to hire this person or that person? Well, first of all he must have Something to offer you, and the mine was very very general in that thing. Now I'll take you back to the thirties, in depression times, when jobs were at a premium, and what happened then? The HBM&S hired, and you know one condition of employment was you should be a Catholic because the manager was a Catholic. My God, Mr.

Chairman, you never saw so many Protestants buying beads, and beating their way to the Confessional Boxes and having it cleared when you must become a Catholic. And the second that would help you, you should be an Elk because the manager at the time was an Elk. They had the highest per capita membership in the Elks than they had in any other clubs. But this is how they raised the highest Elk membership in the Elk's Club. And the no-noes: don't mention union or mention strike, and that was the hiring practice. But it's changed the last two or three years, the way they hire.

There's a shortage of men.--(Jnterjection)--No. This shortage of men, because the youths of today don't have the attitude that the Leader of the Opposition had there and I have, an honest day's work for an honest dollar. This has changed a great deal. Why should a man go down that mine and work hard, probably get emphysema or silicosis, rheumatism, the whole bit, it's ridiculous. And are we smart? I don't know. But hire practices today are this: Hire anybody that will work. So they wanted to hire people from all over Canada, but they weren't hiring at that time.

So they needed a personnel manager, a personnel manager to their qualifications and they were hard to meet. You must be dishonest; you must have no morals, so the Manager of the Royal Bank at the time gets fired, he was a prospect. So they look into his background and he was the man they wanted. They took this man and hired him to hire people.

He hired people from Vancouver, Newfoundland, Cape Breton on false pretenses, and he still has the same trouble, they can't hire people, And when you talk about natives working in mines, man it is just not the thing, there is no way that he will do it; they don't want to work under ground, they are outdoor people. It has to be work conducive to their way of life. You mentioned Tourism and Northern Affairs. We're going into that, Recreation and Tourism and Northern Affairs, and when you criticize us Mr.

Critic, I would give you a little record of the people who represented you in years gone by, Buck Witney, you know, I have lived in Flin Flon since '52; I didn't know that man. He never came to us; he never came to the Labour Temple. He never came to the pubs, the Legion or the Elks, all his time was spent with top management, caviar and cigars, this was his attitude. Then they went to Mr. Jobin, and my God if anyone ever gave away things that belonged to people was the gentleman who is now our Lieutenant-Governor. I'm happy for him being Lieutenant-Governor.

He was a guy that liked the prestige of being an MLA, a Minister important, well-dressed, and today he has got it. I wish him luck. But he did nothing for Flin Flon, nothing. Then we went to Buddy Simpson, an MP. Let me tell you how he got elected my friends: He was the manager of a hockey team that won the Memorial cup. Everyone knew Buddy Simpson because his prestige as a hockey manager was great. I made a speech in Flin Flon and I said, that he who sat in the Parliament Buildings in Ottawa for 15 years, and checking all the Hansards, he said exactly 15 words.

And the Conservative critic was there--(Jnterjection)--Pardon me? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman, I rise on a point of order. The honourable gentleman is going just a little bit too far. First of all, there is a rule that prevents anybOdy from criticizing the Queen or a representative of the Queen, which he has done, and when he suggests that Mr. Simpson, who I sat with in the House of CoillDlons for a number of years, never spoke up in defence of the north or promoting the north, then that is an outright lie, and the honourable gentleman knows it. Mr.

Simpson was one of the best representatives that northern Manitoba ever had and he should recognize it.

March 30, 1976 1767 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAffi.S MR. BARROW: I expected that objection, and I will apologize, because a critic of me at that time contradicted me at the meeting. He said, Mr. Barrow it wasn't fifteen words he said, it was seventeen. Now we go to another member, Mr. Smith; my friend over here mentioned his name. --(Interjec tion )--Pardon me? Well does the truth hurt? Does the truth hurt?

Whose ways in the campaign in the north, who takes credit for everything that this gov ernment does, who spent hours and hours and publication after publication saying, we do not want a French TV station in the north. We all knew that. We don't want it; he knew it, and he can't do anything anyway. A Conservative and a Liberal government is nothing, but he will capitalize on this. Then we will go back to Jack Carron who ran against my friend from The Pas - I'm very happy and proud to call him my friend - who is dedicated, who is not a poli tician by nature; he does not want to be a politican.

Prestige means nothing to him, he is dedicated to helping people. He ran against Jack Carroll, and what did Carroll say when he campaigned among these people, if I am elected in the Legislature, I promise you that our welfare cheques will be more often, fatter and juicier.. That is what he said. I can prove that, if you want me to table it. And my God, the people at that time they weren't that naive, they didn't believe him, so God Bless us we lost to him.

You say your policy, now policy on the north, and I'll give you a good example of it, and I'll give you credit for what you did: You put a road into Flin Flon over that muskeg and it was hard and it was rough, and I give you credit for that, although it's pretty cracked in the Flin Flon area. But you built a road to Wabowden too, the Wabowden Road, and my God, I wish that Mcivor was here tonight, and my friend would verify this. In 1968 you built a road that was 75 feet long that started here, ended there, didn't go anywhere; that's what you did.

So the people of Wabowden would vote Con servative, and my God it was a joke. It still is, that road. And that has been your policy ever since you were in here, a policy that starts nowhere and goes nowhere.- (Interjection) -Where? Ha, ha. I'm glad you spoke up my friend. But the formula for success in the north, and I will admit, Mr. Chairman, and I will agree with my friend, we don't have it.

I've spoken my opinion for hours, and I can tell them all of the problems, but I can't give them the answers • John Low thought he had an answer, that he would fly people from a reserve and work 20 days and go back for 10 days. That was a hopeless thing. I told him, my Leader that. He said, "Why won't it work?" Because they won't stay away from home for 20 days. The unions will say, if they can work for 20 days we can work 40 days and get 20, 60 days and get 30, 80 days, and so on, so they can work an indefinite period and have six months off. That's what would have happened. It was doomed.

I told my leader that, and he said, ''Yes. Maybe you are right, but we have to try." And I will tell you my friends over there, and I think you are my friends, and I respect you people over there; you have a hard job to criticize a government who is doing so well as we have.

When you come out in the next election, and I feel sorry for the person that lives in Flin Flon, the Con servative candidate, he is going to promise things; he is going to say, we will do this and we will do that - I'm not going to mention the Liberals because my friend from Portage la Prairie is there and he is a little embarrassed - but I will say simply, if you will go to do this now you had 30 years to do it, why didn't you do it? That is what I will say.

But the correct formula is this, we will try and we will fail, and we will try again and gradually we will succeed in helping these people to a better way of life. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. DILLEN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just to be very brief. In my remarks this afternoon the Member for St.

James took some exception to the fact that I was a little bit frustrated with the Federal Government, and that is true, but he cited only the question of the fish subsidies, but there are many many more frustrations that the people of Manitoba have suff ered at the hands of the Federal Government. I do not have to cite, not only Saunders Aircraft, the Skywest Project, and a number of other things, but you know that I almost felt that there was some appreciation of the Federal Government's decision not to provide any funding for Skywest from that side of the House.

1768 March 30, 1976 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAffiS (MR.

DILLEN cont'd) • • • . .And lo and behold this same Federal Government, if you will understand my frustration, and a member of. the Liberal Government in Ottawa, who is a Winnipegger, is now asking for permission to borrow somewhere in the order of $300 million, based on the people of Canada's ability to repay some local financial institu tion, to give to an American corporation, the Lockheed Corporation, one of the corpora tions that has been involved in some of the worst scandals that has ever occurred any where in the world, and we 're going to take Canadian money and bail them out to just about the same extent of the amount of pay-offs that they have made to governments throughout the wor Id.

You know, I realize that I'm slightly off the subject, Mr •. Chairman, but the Member for St. James raised this subject, and I think it's necessary for me to respond. You know that in the last four or five years, since I've been involved in the politics of the north, and that's not in a Party sense, I've had more than one frustration with .the Federal Government.

I asked at one time, at Moose Lake, of the Federal Government, while we had a training program on there training people in carpentry, in the repair of homes, to just hold off the construction of an expansion to the school until such time as that project was complete so that we can take the people off the project and they could use the skills that they had acquired on that project for building the school. You know, to me that made sense, but to the Federal Government it did not.

They simply said, I'm sorry, it's let, it's all pre-arranged and pre-designed, and there was no consultation with the local people as to what time the scheduling of that particular project should take place. At the same time I requested this, well the logging operation was coming very quickly to a close, that they should not proceed until the logging operation was complete so that the people could go from the logging operation to fill some of the gaps that would be created as a result of the start-up of those ftmds. It's been one constant source of frustration.

We've got the people of the north based on Federal programmings: Like our involvement with adult basic education. Adult basic education has been nothing more than a means of reducing the welfare and unemploy ment statistics of the communities. LIP is the same way. They've come in with these great sounding programs just prior to a federal election, get the people geared to accepting them, and 1 they submit projects on the basis of the continuation of those funds, only to find that those ftmds are withdrawn and that the Provincial Government has to fill the gap that is left.

Those are the kind of things that have happened all too often in northern Mani toba. And if I'm frustrated as a result of that kind of activity, I believe that I have a right to be. You know the Member for St. James has a hang-up about establishing the right kind - and I'll use his words - the right political climate for economic development in northern Manitoba. You know the only people who are concerned about the proper poli tical climate are the mining industries.

You know but when you examine where the mining industry is most active, you won't find them in democracies, you'll find them in every military dictatorship that exist anywhere in the world. That is the kind of more favourable political climate that it's more easy for them to work under. They are in Manitoba because the previous government under the Conservatives gave half the north away to the mining industry. Gave it away. Gave it every concession that they could possibly get, and got nothing in return and had to build the roads for them besides. And he talks about roads to resources.

That's the kind of development that these people are famous for. And the roads to Thompson -you know I'm glad you mentioned that. Thompson exists because there is a deposit in the ground that can be extracted for profit, for no other reason;--(Interjection)-- That's right. The people who work in those mines don't back down.--(Interjection)--Well, if you'll just let me finish I'll get to your point about who benefits from economic development in northern Manitoba.

You know the member says, who built Thompson, and who built the road to Thompson, and they can still remember the Diefenbaker years of 20 years ago, in the 50s when they were talking about roads to resources. You know that that is one of the

March 30, 1976 1769 SUPPLY -N ORTHERN AFFAffiS (MR. DILLEN cont'd) ••••. most expensive roads to maintain of any road in Manitoba, that so-called road to resources, because it is made up of nothing but muskeg and swamp and roots and all of the garbage that they could possibly find to throw in the path to raise it above a level equal enough to run cars on. But where there is some pre-design and some thought and some engineering that goes into a road - you don't just pick a spot through the bush and run a road through.

But I'll tell you that there's been more resource roads built under this administration than has ever been built under any Northern Roads to Resources Program in this province. --(Interjection)-- MR. CHAffiMAN: Order, please. MR. DILLEN: If there was some truth in the fact that local indigenous people benefit from economic development, we wouldn't have the conditions that exist elsewhere in the world where this same form of massive economic development is taking place.

You know that it's no secret that in any developing country that you look at today, the local indigenous population receive no benefits whatsoever from this kind of development. I don't have to cite you South America. You know, if you've picked up the papers, if you read any publications at all on South America, that is the case. If you read about Africa, the southern part of Africa, the same thing applies. It's no secret in that country who benefits from the development. But that is the kind of political climate that is more beneficial to the mining industry. I have just a few more points, Mr. Chairman.

One thing that I really - and the Member for St. James remarks that I have been saying it for three years- is that I don't really like the concept of subsidies because he illustrated exactly what happens to sub sidies when he said, if we are elected in the next election we will give them the $50, 000 - I'm sorry, $500,000 which is required for a fish transportation subsidy. We will give it to them, he says. And as soon as he says that, the Leader of the . • • MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for St. James on a point of order. MR.

MINAKER: On a point of order, well, personal privilege, I would ask the Honourable Member of Thompson to read Hansard tomorrow, and I think he will find that I didn't say that we would provide the $500,000 subsidy. I said that the present govern ment should look at this, it's an important industry of the north, and he should go after his government that he is a member of and get it, but I didn't say that we would provide it. But I know I'm confident that such a decision would be met with acceptance of a government of the Progressive Conservative Party of Manitoba. MR.

CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. DILLEN: Mr. Chairman, I have, you know, I know what I heard and I believe that I heard right. Now if I'm wrong, when we read Hansard tomorrow, I will apologize to the member for being wrong. But I know that if what I've heard was right, that the Leader of the Liberal Party will say that the Conservatives, they're a bunch of cheapskates, vote for us and we'll give you a million and a half.--(Interjection)--Now we're escalating already, and that's exactly what has happened with every subsidy program that has ever been introduced. Every one. Every one.

You know that every time that there's an election in western Canada that the western Canadian Conservative and Liberal candidates come before the people and say, "Elect us and we '11 increase the subsidies·." They increased the subsidies to the extent that everybody went out and produced and as a result of over-production in the next year after the election is finished, people are then being paid to •.• MR. CHAffiMAN: Order please. If the Honourable Member from Minnedosa wants to get on the list to make a speech, I shall be delighted to put him on. MR. DILLEN: People are then being paid not to grow products.

And that same thing happened in the east coast. Exactly the same thing happened to the fishermen of the east coast. When the federal elections came they said, "Elect us," whoever was running at that time, they said, "Elect us, or if you return us to government we will increase the subsidy." And the subsidies increased. And it's a game. It's a game that I'm sure • • .I give more credit to the intelligence of northern people than to be sucked into that kind of a game.

1770 March 30, 1976 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS (MR. DILLEN cont'

d) I believe that they were responsible in their request for a subsidy. I believe that they looked at it very clearly, very cautiously and said, this is what we require. And somebody says, go to your Provincial Government, go to the people in your front row and get the money. Well, Mr. Chairman, that is exactly what I have done. I have gone to my people on this side of the House and they have said we have $250, 000 if the Federal Government will come through with their share.

And I said at that time, that we have accepted responsibility for the people of the north and it's up to the Federal Government to also accept their share of the responsibility. I'll have more to say on this as the • • • MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman, in listening to the two previous members who have just concluded their remarks I can't help but get the feeling that both of the honour able gentlemen are extremely frustrated.

Frustrated because they recognize and know the policies of the present government that have been pursued insofar as the north is concerned have not produced anything. And the Member for Thompson and the Member for Flin Flon took it upon themselves to attempt to place the blame for that failure on other people. The Member for Flin Flon berated away at the Lieutenant-Governor, which in my view is contrary to the rules of the House in saying anything derogatory against the Queen or a representative of the Queen.--(Interjection)--Well, the honourable member laughs at that. You know, Mr.

Chairman, the attitude of the honourable gentleman typifies the kind of thought that the Minister of Labour describes as representing people in this House . MR. GREEN: I was in the House when the remarks referred to by my honour able friend were made and I think that Hansard will show that the remarks were made about the honourable gentleman before he was the Lieutenant-Governor. MR. JORGENSON: It doesn't make a bit of difference, Mr. Chairman, whether it was before or after.

The remarks were made and they were unparliamentary and contrary to the rules of this House, and the House Leader knows that damn well. (Interjection)-- MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Thompson on a point of order. Will the Honourable member state his point of order.--(Interjection)--ORDER. The honourable member state his point of order. ORDER. I suggest the Honourable Mem ber for Minnedosa take a walk. Will the honourable member state his point of order. MR. BARROW: Mr. Chairman, what I said about Mr. Jobin was prior to his rise in society.

But that doesn't make me any more disrespectful of our Queen or our Lieutenant-Governor. You know, you're sitting in this House, and I didn't respect you before you got in the House. I don't respect you now, and I won't respect you when you get out of the House. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order. That's not a point of order. MR. JORGENSON: I'll simply have to ignore the comments of the Member for Flin Flon who is trying to extricate himself from the position that he placed himself in as a result of his attitude towards the Lieutenant-Governor of this province.

I think it's a disgraceful act on his part and, you know, the Minister of Labour is one to talk about thugs in this House, when he has on his side of the House those who talk in terms that were exemplified by the remarks of the Member for Flin Flon. Well, Mr. Chairman, I --(Interjection)-- MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. Would the honourable member state his point of order. If he's going to state the same point of order that he stated last time ..• MR. BARROW: Yes, I'll explain it to the member explicitly. I am a person who also believes that we have no need for the Senate, Lieutenant-Governors or Royalty. MR.

CHAIRMAN: ORDER. That is not a point of order. MR. JORGENSON: That again, Sir, typifies the attitude of the honourable gentle men opposite who have, in essence, no use for parliament, no use for a Legislative Assembly and no use for democracy. That typifies the kind of attitude that we hear constantly from honourable gentlemen opposite.

March 30, 1976 1771 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS (MR. JORGENSON cont'

d) Well, Sir, we are now beginning to get at the truth. We 're now beginning to get examples of the feelings of honourable gentlemen opposite insofar as Parliament is concerned, insofar as the Queen is concerned, and insofar as this Legislature is concerned. I never cease to be amazed at how honourable gentlemen can from time to time ex press themselves in a way that reveals a true attitude--(Interjection)--Well, my honourable friend says we can't understand honesty.

I lmow honesty when I see it, and I can also recog nize bloody hypocrisy when I see it on the part of the honourable gentlemen opposite, who stand up in this House and because of the failure of their own programs attempt to blame other people. He took it upon himself to criticize the representative of the Queen for the failures that he now is experiencing from his own government, to criticize former members of this Legislature - and that's perfectly legitimate I've no criticism of that, that's up to him - and the former Mem ber of the House of Commons who I happen to lmow a little bit about.

Because I happened to be a room mate of Bud Simpson 's and I happened to sit in the same House as Bud Simpson for many years, and I lmow the kind of time, and I lmow the kind of work, and I lmow the kind of effort, and I lmow the kind of dedication that Mr. Simpson put into the work in representing northern Manitoba. There never was, in my opknion, a better representative of the north than Bud Simpson.

And for the honourable gentleman to stand up in this House and criticize his efforts, and maybe they were not always entirely successful, maybe they were not what everybody expected to be, but nobody can criticize Bud Simpson for not trying and for not representing the area that he was elected to represent. I think it's a sign of sheer hypocrisy on the part of the Member for Flin Flon to stand up in this House and attempt to do that. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order. ORDER. Now the honourable member lmows better that you can't call people hypocrites or accuse them of hypocrisy in this House.--(Interjection)- Order. MR.

JORGENSON: But I think also that when utterances are made in this House by people on the other side of the House, these should be ca lled to order as well. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. I did not call the honourable member to order when he was making the references that he did, because he made those references prior to that hon ourable gentleman's elevation to the office that he held. He criticized that gentle man when he held public office in this province, not as Lieutenant-Governor of this province. MR. JORGENSON: Well, Mr. Chairman, you can take whatever attitude you like on that particular question.

I have a right to my own opinions insofar as his remark is concerned and I'm attempting to express it. And I'm expressing them in a way that should leave no doubt in the minds of this House and in the mind of the honourable gentleman as to what his remarks constitute insofar as the Lieutenant-Governor of this province is concerned, Now we deal with the Member for Thompson who, in his own way, in his own way at tempted to do precisely the same thing as the Member for Flin Flon did. To place the blame for the failure of the government programs on the Federal Government.

And I have no brief to carry for the Federal Government, as anybody in this House lmows. But to attempt to suggest that the reason for the failure of Provincial Government's programs which are contained in abundance in the legislation, in the Estimates, and wherever you want to look. But I'll tell you one thing, Mr. Chairman, that when you look at the Estimates and when you look at the pro grams that are designated or designed or supposed to help northern Manitoba, what do you find ? You find nothing more than salaries and expenses.

Who gets the benefit of all the money that is being spent up in the north but friends of the government, civil servants that are placed in there in violation of the Civil Service Commission, appointed simply because they have cards which designate themselves or designate them as members of the NDP Party rather than because they have qualifications for any particular job. That is the kind of money that is being spent by this government in the north as elsewhere across this province.

That is not doing one bit of good for anybody, simply appointing friends and placing peo ple in positions where they are going to be able to influence elections. That kind of bribery, that kind of nonsense is what's going on in this government and has been going on ever since they took power. And that's the reason why, Sir, that their programs have failed in northern Manitoba, as they have failed in other parts of the country, because all they constitute is largesse to their friends who have the green membership cards.

1772 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable First Minister. March 30, 1976 MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Chairman, it's always a treat if one is looking for amusemmt to listen to the Honourable Member for Morris; and he didn't disappoint anybody tonight working up a high pitch of phoney indignation. He succeeded in that respect because he is one who, particularly when talking about the north, is quite capable of phoneyness.

I say that because I think that there are few members in this House who are least qualified to speak about the north, its history, its trials and tribulations, than the Member for the Town of Morris. But let's not forget, Mr. Chairman, let me go on to say that he would have us believe that when the Tories were in office that they appoint their enemies. Isn't that the corollary of what he was trying to say here this evening? My colleagues and I have not particular desire to appoint card-carrying mem bers to anything.

But if they are competent, capable, willing to work, the fact that they may or may not have a card is not at issue. I have no idea what proportion of persons who work in the public service in northern Manitoba carry cards. I don't think that the Minister of Labour has the slightest idea, nor does the Minister of Mines and Resources, nor does any member of the Treasury Benches. If they did I would be most surprised. Because the truth of the matter is that there has been a significant increase in the number of public servants working in the public service in northern Manitoba.

It is no secret. --(Interjection)-- The Member for Swan River will no doubt have his opportunity. --(Interjection)-- Well, yes, I'm sure you will. And after you do, I will again. Because if there is anything that needs to be put into proper perspective it is the posing MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. Will the honourable member ••• MR. SCHREYER: •.• of the Conservative Party, of this province as having some knowledge with respect to the problems, and they are very real problems, Mr. Chairman, relative to northern Manitoba.

We are facing great difficulties in trying to bring 20th Century services and opportunities to the people of northern Manitoba. It is frustrating. We are meeting a considerable degree of failure. We are meeting more than our share of frustration, and only because, Mr. Chairman, of a century of accumulated neglect and disregard. My honourable friends dare use the word hypocrisy, I say that the word hypocrisy is epitomized when a Tory in Manitoba talks about northern Manitoba. MR. CHAIRMAN: Does the honourable member have a point of order? --(Interjection)-- Order please.

Does the honourable member have a point of order? MR. BLAKE: Would the First Minister yield to a question, Mr. Chairman? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. BLAKE: I just wondered in view of the Minister's remarks, in view of the Citizens Home Repair Program, if he would care to comment on the person in charge of the Citizens Home Repair Program in Manitoba, if he would drive by his home and find that the windows are covered with . plastic that are torn down, and it's in such a state of disrepair that it should be repaired itself. Now this is competency in the Home Repair Program inspectorl MR.

CHAIRMA.N: Order please. ORDER PLEASE. Order please. MR. SCHREYER: Well, I'm prepared to answer, Sir. MR. CHAIRMA .N: Order please. I think the honourable member has been in this House long enough to know that when he gets up and interrupts a member and asks a question, that it has to be relevant to the speech that is being made. The Honourable First Minister. MR . SCHREYER: It may not be relevant, Sir, and I always bow to your ruling. But I don't mind answering the question. I believe I know the particular residence that my honourable friend is referring to. I believe I do.

It is in a state of - well it clearly indicates that the person does not have a lavish home. It is in need of some repair. But it also proves to me that the person is not on the take of the

March 30 , 1976 1773 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAI RS (MR. SCHREYER cont 'd) • • • • • public payroll. He is undoubtedly --(Interjection)- Well you see, Sir, they would like to have it both ways, If the person had a home which was perhaps above average in terms of aesthetics and floor space and everything else, they would probably be rumour-mongering that he were on the public take above and beyond whatever wages he is entitled to, But Mr. Chairman, I don't think that any member on either side would want to get involved in that kind of petty, and believe me that is petty, conm1ent.

Talk about bad taste, commenting on whether or not a private persons home is aesthetic or ugly, I wouldn't care to commen t whether my honourable friends opposite have ho mes that are beautiful or ug ly, that is their business. I would hope it remains their business. Nevertheless, I was in the process of saying, Mr. Chairman, that indeed if my honourable friends are looking for exan1ples of where we have fail ed to bring about a new Jerusalem in northern Manitoba they will have ample scope, because indeed we have faced one set of frustrations after the other.

But this much I an1 confident of , Sir, that we are making progress and like all progress the initial momentum is the most diff icult and the slowest, but it is gathering momentum towards bringing the people, particularly in the small remote communities into some degree of greater opportunity and access to the mainstrean1 of modern society than was the case a decade ago, there is no doubt about that.

The establishment, the originating of such programs as Manitoba Manpower, my honourable friend , my colleague the Member for Thompson, was indicating that there are problems with it, but indeed what was the alternative , because pre-dating the inception of the Northern Manitoba Manpower Corps, there were whole parts of the Province of Manitoba for which so called Canadian Manpower Service was academic in the very full sense of the word academic.

It existed in theory and on paper but had no relevance to their communities, and we have attempted through northern preference clause, through Northern Manpower personnel in diff erent communities in the north to provide a liaison by modern telecommuni cation with Canada Manpower and with the main construction sites and with employment else where in the province, It has been costly, but it has produced some results that are beneficial in human terms.

In addition to that, we have started a program, again under the general aegis of Northern Affa irs, at least through its initial prompting known as Brandon University Northern Teachers Education Program, or BUNTEP to use an acronym, and that is resulting in the graduation of certain young people in northern Manitoba into profe ssionally certified teaching, which up until then that profe ssion was theoretically and only academically existing. We started a program of teacher aides, and Mr.

Chairman, personally that is the one that I concentrate on most in terms of satisfaction because in comparison to what I perceived with my own eyes in northern Manitoba communities back in 1958 and 59 and then now in the 1970s, I tell you, Sir, it makes all the diff erence in the world.

Insofar as the degree to which young children in the schools were completely passive , unresponsive and uncommunicating with their teachers, but with the presence of a teacher aide, indigenous to the community, capable of communicating in the native Cree or Salteaux language, there is a diffe rence in degree that is so great that it amounts to a dif ferenc e in kind, and that is the teacher aide program, and that has cost money and of course that means more people in the public service payroll.

In some ways I an1 a reactionary conservative , it bothers me that the public payroll should be expanding but, Sir, everything in life that's worth doing is a trade-off, a trade-off between trying to do things at less cost, taking it more cool, less risks , less chance of criticism or taking an approach that might just provide and produce some results that are beneficial in human terms. And you expose yourself every time to risk and to the chance of failure , and therefore to criticism from those who are unthinking.

Particularly if you have an expert from the Town of Morris who knows it all as to whether or not there is on balance success or fail ure. It is only a question of on balance, there are no dramatic results, there are no dramatic failu res, everything is a matter of degree, and you make progress not in great leaps forward, but gradually and with determination, My honourable friends certainly were less open to criticism, primarily because

1774 March 30, 1976 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS (MR. SCHREYER cont'd) ••••• they didn't do anything insofar as remote northern communities are concerned, and you Sir, don't pretend otherwise. There is one person, Sir, I don't mind bringing it down to personal terms, the former member for Ruperts land Joseph Jeannotte, he cared. He cared, but he was terri bly lonely, terribly lonely and he will say so today. Ask him. MR. PAULLEY: He woi:Jldn't even run again. MR. SCHREYER: To build a few roads, a few miles of miserable road with gravel costs $120,000 a mile in the northern Canadian Shield.

They didn't want to spend that money, they take the safe way out, and then we are treated to a lecture from the Member for Morris about hypocrisy. My God they personified it, particularly on northern affairs. If there is one thing that I feel deeply about, it is a century of accumulated neglect on the part of my honourable friends opposite and their predecessors. Human misery, a hundred years of it accumulating , and then they have the audacity to talk about failures. Yes we have incurred some failures, and we will incur more, but we will try, Mr. Chairman, rest assured of that.

Now the member for Morris he mixes this with --(Interjection)-- Well yes people will pay for it, of course. Well did I say otherwise, but I will say this, Mr. Chairman ••• MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please, order please. I think that the Honourable Member for Swan River knows very well that when an honourable member is speaking that you don 't keep interrupting. That is a breach of the rule s of the orders, a breach of privilege of this House. I am not going to ask hin1 again, please desist. MR. BILTON: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order.

If the honourable gentle man wishes to provoke comments surely you are not going to stifle them. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. I think the honourable me mber now will just cast back when he sat in the Chair and he tried to interpret the rules, now I just ask the honourable member just to think a little bit about Beauchesne, perhaps this weekend he could have a look at it again and refresh his memory. The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Well Mr.

Chairman, I don't want to be accused of provoking comment deliberately, but if I provoke it as a matter of course, I don't mind whatever comments my honourable friend the Member for Swan River wishes to make, I just point out to him that had he sat in the House of Commons he would have seen his spiritual mentor the Right Honourable John Diefenbaker provoking comment every time he speaks, but it is not unparliamentary to provoke comment. You are not accusing me of --(Interjection)-- We welcome, Mr. Chairman, whatever interjections as long as the Chair can stand them.

But what is also involved here is the necessity for putting, if not a defence, because my colleague the Minister of Northern Affairs is quite capable of defending the detail of what we have tried to do, and I am sure he will be candid enough to indicate where we have had failure, and he will also I think be determined enough to indicate where we have had relative success.

It's not a matter of black and white, and it is not a matter of any kind of dramatic record, it's just that on balance and on philosophic objective and determination we feel that it is right that we make every possible effort to try and give, to try and so arrange programs as to result in more opportunity for people living in the remote northern communities to come more into the mainstream of contemporary life and jobs, and there is no easy way. That is the frustration which my honourable friends • • • . I invite them to share rather than take the easy way out of criticizing.

There is great frustration because there is no easy way, Mr. Chairman, to bring about that kirid of change. People that live 180 miles into the bush without surface access, surface transportation access, in which there has been no training of manual skills, or trade skills that are relevant to the modern world , you cannot by simply 1urning the tap make all that different overnight.

So it is a case of having to organize first of all such mundane things as the bare essentials of bringing these people into relationship to Manpower Offices - and that had to be done from scratch - and then comes the nec essity for initial stage training in skills and hence we became involved with such projects as L-5 at Clmrchill for the construction of homes, and with that comes electrical , plumbing, carpentry - all of that

March 30, 1976 1775 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAffiS (MR. SCHREYER cont'd) ••••• is expensive. Heavy equipment operating, motor grader patrol operating, motor mechanics through Minago contractors, and tha t's expensive. Everything, Sir, is expensive when you are starting from square one and trying to make up for - Alright, Sir, I exaggerated - a hundred years, fifty years to try to make up for it within a decade. When you try to telescope time in that fashion, it amounts to almost a crash effort and that is by definition expensive. --(Interjection)- Yes Moose Lake. Well now, Moose Lake.

My honourable friend from Swan River mentions Moose Lake and I would dearly love, if it were possible under the rules and perhaps it is, for my colleagues that are most involved with Moose Lake, the Minister of Northern Affairs, my colleague the House Leader, to talk about Moose Lake, where was it at, when did it start, what opportunities did people have, what kind of livelihood were they engaged in before, and how much are they producing now ? My honourable friend would like topooh-pooh, pooh out, whatever the expression is, Moose Lake Loggerso The fact is that it is a community.

If it were not for Moose Lake Loggers there would be no commercial wood production, and I believe it is fair to say that in the last 12 month period, they have produced 25, 000 cords. That' s nothing to sneeze at, 25, 000 cords at an average value of $22. 00 a cord, it seems to me to come to over $500, 000. That is productivity or production that is better than zero, or a dead weight drain on the welfare rolls of Canada and/or Manitoba or a combination thereof. And so on and so forth.

The north is replete with exan1ples where it is costing money to achieve relatively non-dramatic results, but, Sir, non-dramatic they are results nevertheless. The nature of the geography, the clin1ate, the terrain, the resource s, being what they are , isolation factor being what it is, I don't know why my honourable friends opposite really expect.

When we tried the concept of winter road construction - they had their fun for a couple of years, but I haven't heard anything smerky or smart alecky in the last 12 months about winter roads because we have mana ged, again through the aegis of the Department of Northern Affairs to involve the native people themselves through their own corporate mechanism to build almost 300 miles of winter road through the bush country on a terrain which is intimidating by any standard of comparison in Canada , and they hav e built it, Sir, without having to be supervised so closely by white men as has been our historical wont.

They have made mistakes in the first two years, but it should do all of u:s, it should give all of us some soul satisfaction that in the last two years they have built it on their own, 290 miles through the Canadian Shield, and they have done so to meet the time targets and to be able to freight in over 20 million pounds of freight in one winter road shipping season. That is a feat which we should take pride in, not on a partisan basis but on a provincial basis. Instead my honourable friends keep their powder dry and when they achieve success they are quiet; they make a mistake , then the guns are out.

Well we can play that gan1e too, Mr. Chairman. We are facing as the Province of Manitoba some odds here, some rather negative odds for the sin1ple reas on that in Manitoba the proportion of people of native and remote northern communities total population is, if anything, larger than any province in Canada, followed by Saskatchewan, Alberta and Northwestern On tario, but in proportion to total population, we have the largest proportion.

We have therefore, the largest challenge in terms of bringing greater equality of opportunity to people who were always blithely assun1ed to want to continue to pursue historical livelihoods of trapping and fishing. But trapping, Mr. Chairman , need anyone elaborate on that, is no longer a serious viable livelihood, and commercial fishing is plagued by the results of higher costs of transportation, in turn due to higher costs of oil.

When my colleague the Member for Thompson was expressing despair, if not criticism about the fact that the commercial fisheries depend on some kind of transporta tion support from the Government of Canada, and if the Member for Morris is saying that we are therefore merely criticizing or picking on the Federal Government, I merely want to ask honourable members opposite to look at

Section 91 Subsection 12 of the

1776 March 30, 1976 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAffiS (MR. SCHREYER cont'd) ••••• British North America Act, and Subsection 12 of the British North America Act says, as simply as any piece of law can say, that there is legislative authority, therefore r.esponsibility, with respect to sea coast and inland fishe ries.

Therefore we are not engaging in criticism of another level of government because we are frustrated with aut own problems, but rather because that is the constitutional division of responsibility in our country, and why should any level of government be allowed to slough off by stealth or by subtle design an area that it has explicit constitutional responsibility for.

It is no secret, and I thought that I was less of a criticizer of Grits than the Member for Morris but - unless he has had a change of heart in the last week or two - the Government of Canada has in recent years, very recent years, attempted by stealth and/or design to absolve itself by degree of responsibility for the health and social services relative to people of treaty status. There is no question about that.

If my honourable friend the Member for Morris is skeptical, I would be pleased to send him a document which has been put in my hands, leaked from a Kingston Conference of Federal Civil Servants - and the implications, apart from the fin ances of it, the implications are a moral repugnance, a clear constitutional responsibility that they are attempting to slough off, and there is no doubt about it in two areas in particular: Responsibility relative to services for people of treaty status, and the other, I repeat, Subsection 12 of

Section 91, of the British North America Act, sea coast and inland fisherie s.

Now the other provinces of Western Canada, Northwestern Ontario by degree only, because they are half in and half out of the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation, butthe three prairie provinces are sharing financial responsibility with respect to the operations of the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation, not because the BNA Act says that this is the way it must be, but because there was this dictum from Ottawa back in the mid 60s that they were not in effect interested enough in inland fisheries, therefore they were not about to do anything unless there was provincial input.

In the meantime, although the word sea coast and inland fish eries are equally clearly stated in Subsection 12, the historical pattern in Canada has been for subsidization of sea coast fisheries but nothing relative to inland fisheri es. It is not a state of affair s that ought to go unchallenged. That's about what is involved here; it is merely a literal and honest

interpretation of the British North America Act. What I regret about the other part of the altercation, and here I am less able to speak about, is some suggestion that my colleague the Member for Flin Flon, was somehow disrespectful of the Queen's representative and, Mr. Chairman, I would simply say this: That there has never been any question, there is no question now, that the Government of the Province of Manitoba does not raise as an issue the matter and existence of the monarchy. My honourable friend should not try to raise problems of laissez-majeste that do not exist.

I believe it is fair to say that the monarchy has been called into question in the House of Commons in Ottawa and ••• MR. PAULLEY: And at Westminister. MR. SCHREYER: Yes, I believe that even by some honourable members in the House of Commons in Westminister. That is not at issue, It is merely that one should expect that if we practice freedom of speech and parliamentary institutions for completely free and untrammelled debates, that the law of probability is such that from time to time some person will raise that as a valid and bonafide debating issue or question.

But I say to my honourable friend, the Member for Morris, that he surely cannot be serious when he suggests that it is somehow disrespectful of the Queen' s representative when a person calls into question the policy position held by that person in the days before he was the Que en' s representative. There is all the diff erence in the world, and no one has ever suggested that a person upon becoming Lieutenant Governor is completely free of having any historical reference made to his actions, policy positions, political speeches, made in the days before he was the Queen's representative. Mr.

Chairman, it is as simple as that. Either one accepts that reasonable proposition or one can, of course, always insist on dragging and obscuring that clear distinction.

March 30 , 1976 1777 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFA lllS (MR . SCHREYER cont1d) • I want to say to my honourable friends opposite that we realize that in that part of our province, north of the 53rd parallel, east of Lake Winnipeg, in which some 60 to 70 thousand souls live, that most of the people living there are living there for historical and cultural reasons. We hope that we can devise and deliver programs, at least some of which will be to some degree somewhat ef fective in bringing to those people some degree of hope that they will be able to meet the demands of the modern day labour force and marketplace.

It is neces sary to have hope. People living in harsher cli1nate and remote and some distance away, by definition, Sir, if the resource base is thin and thinner, if the distances are greater, then there is more cost involved and the struggle, the drive to bring programs that will be relevant for them, becomes more diffic ult, more expensive. The rate of failure and success becomes more border line. But I would hope that that is not taken as a reason for abandoning effort. And, of course, there is no need to talk about abandoning effort when one hasn't started. We are not in that happy position.

We have made many efforts , some of which we are determined to pursue and some of which we will discontinue in the hope that we can find a better replacement. But that is all academic on the part of those who didn't see fit to endorse and to vote fund s for making substantial effort in the first place. And there is the big diff erence.

And if they say well, this all has to be paid for, the people cannot stand it, I would merely point out that in Manitoba we have - in all of Canada and Manitoba is not exception - we have quite a number of people who enjoy a life style of material comfort and well-being and richness that is unrivaled in all of human history in the past. And therefore the fact that -- (Interjection)-- well it's old hat. It may be old hat to my honourable friend. I don't even think it's nf>w hat to him because I don't think he's thought of it that way.

There are people, I repeat, who enjoy a material life style that is beyond i1nagination in terms of comparison with the pages of human history and that they should be required to part with some of that by way of taxation in civilization to give a bit of a helping hand to people in distress or in positions of historical neglect, merely underlines all the more, the diff erence between Conservatives in the reactionary sense and those who call themselves Socialists or Social Democrats. MR. CHA lll MAN: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. CRAIK: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I don't rise at this time to pose as an expert on the north, nor an expert on whether the governn1.ent is succeeding in certain areas or failing in other areas in the north, but I do rise to take issue with the First Minister in his comments that the north suff ered a century of neglect until he can1.e to power. The First Minister was pretty caref ul, Mr. Chairman, to state that compared to '5 8-159, that there had been large strides made in the north. Mr. Chairman, and the First Minister asks, what changes were made ? All the changes were made, Mr. Chairman.

The beginnings of the changes were made in the period following '58-'59, I agree. And those were his words, '58 -159 . Mr. Chairman, '58-'59 wasn't the entire century, '5 8-'59 was the ti1ne when the Roblin governn1.ent can1.e to power and that's when the changes started in the north. Well, Mr. Chairman, let' s start. The fir st changes, the major changes in the education were made following 158-159. The creation of the Frontier School Division. The first high schools built, Mr. Chairman, in that entire geographical area, started.

The high school from which this member built his own base on which he got elected to this Legislature as an employee in that particular school. The first, Mr. Chairman, the fir st changes in the educational system that started to build the base by which the Native people of the north could work their way into the areas of employment and of education which they had not had up until that time. The first changes, Mr.

Chairman, of the construction in the fie ld of education, not of a high school but of a voc ational school at The Pas, which is still there and is running at capacity and doing the job which it was intended for. I recall, Mr. Chairman, in the short period of time I was Minister of Education,

1778 March 30, 197 6 SUPPLY -NORTHERN AFFAIRS (MR . CRAIK cont'd) ••••• following which that school was opened in 19 67, standing over there defending the Estimates of the Department of Education and being criticized by this side of the House because the school was not full. Well, Mr. Chairman, my answer was -and the school had been operating at that time for a year -was that thank God it's half full. And it was half full of the ri ght kind of people.

It was half full of Native people who now had an opportunity to take vocational courses� And that school was building its way towards offering the type of courses that those people wanted. Now that was handed over to this government two years later, and they haven't built another school. They're still operating that same school. They're still doing the same thing, and they stand there and say, ''What did you do?" The Premier stands here and takes credit for Moose Lake, for Moose Lake Loggers. Mr.

Chairman, the biggest thing probably that was done, and it was done before my time and I take no credit for it, was the establishment of Churchill Forest Industries. I take credit for the prior government for starting that because they started it with their hearts in 1he right place. They started it because renewable resource oriented jobs were the 1;ype of jobs that the Native people were adaptable to. And they took the gamble and did it, but it fell in bad hands and one of those two hands was this governmen t who couldn't carry it out to its completion because they're just lousy adn1inistrators.

But it did do the job. I can remember sitting in The Pas in 1967 and then talking to Gordon Latham, who later became the Chief of that Indian Band and was a very successful chief and has retired just in the last year, who was a leader of his people and that man related to the govermnent of the day what he wanted for his people, and the government of that day addressed itself to providing those jobs. The First Minister stands up and takes credit for Moose Lake Loggers. Moose Lake Loggers, Mr.

Chairman, has had its troubles along the way, but never have I criticized Moose Lake Loggers because I started Moose Lake Loggers as the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. And the reason I started it, Mr. Chairman, was to start in a community, a community-oriented project subsidized for an initial period of tin1e by the government to get it started, and it's had its rough times. -(Interjecti.Dn)- Well, Mr.

Chairman, let me tell you that in the initial days of that project, it got the sort of administration that when the first 1, 500 man hours of work were done in that community, there wasn't one man involved in that project that did not have a record filed against him in the courts. There wasn't a man that hadn't spent some time in jail prior to getting involved in that proj ect. In the first 1, 50 0 man hm1rs of work, Mr. Chairman, there was less than 50 hours of absenteeism because it got good administration in those days. And this government cannot claim that. So don't talk to me about new initiatives , Mr.

Chairman, and talk about a century of neglect. The major initiatives were done under the former Conservative governmen t in the field of education, in the field of renewable resource jobs for the Native people, the shuffling of Headstart Programs out of southern Manitoba into northern Manitoba, all of them dedicated to giving opportunity to people.

The whole beginnings of the present education system of the north started after the establishment of the Frontier School Division, the establishment of the collegiate, the establishment of the vocational school at The Pas, the establishment of the other modern new schools in the other communities of the north, and it has been contirrued by this governmen t. But don't let them stand and act like they started this whole thing. Abject nonsense. Absolute tripe. And they stand here, including the First Minister, and said, what does the opposition expect?

Well the opposition expects an ounce, a dram of intellectual honesty of the First Minister and his other ministers. And don't stand there and tell us that there was a century of neglect. The First Minister made a slip himself of say.ing the neglect ended in '58 -' 59. He didn't mean 168-'69, he meant '58-'59 because that's when the major programs to provide opportunity in the north started. It 's just a little sickening to see the northern members that are here with this sort of bias they have to try and ju stify their existence of being here by railing against what the former government did.

Well they should have been here prior to that. Now why do they protest so loudly ? I think the reason they're

March 30, 1976 1779 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAI RS (MR. CRAIK cont'd) ••••• protesting is they're not seeing the results come out of those programs, and if the results are not coming out of those programs today, Mr. Chairman, don't look at a government that precedes the present government. Look at themselve s, because that' s where the problem lies. So, Mr.

Chairman, I repeat, I don't stand here and pretend to be an expert for any of the members of these northern constituencies that are sitting here and participating in the debate, but I'm not going to stand here and listen to this tripe accusing the former government - whether I was a member of it at the tim e it was initiated or not, and I wasn't when the Frontier School Division and the CFI and some of these other projects were started - but I wholeheartedly supported them.

I became a member of that government because of the initiatives they were taking, not only in northern Manitoba but in southern Manitoba as well, when the people felt that there was something happening. There was a resurgence in Manitoba in the field not only of education, in the field of industrial development and all the other fields that were in1portant. And the field of health and social development. All of th ose fields went through a renaissance following the period of '58 -'59 , Mr. Chairman. It didn't start in '69 as the First Minister is trying to lead this House to believe at this time. MR.

SCH REYER: Mr. Chairman, the Honourable Member for Riel, the Honourable Leader of the Opposition I should say, is now exaggerating. I don't believe that I was pretending to say that everything started from square one in 1969. But I'm prepared to give as well as take and when I hear the Honourable Member for Morris, as I did this evening, try to imply that we were experiencing only fail ures in the north and no relative succ ess, then that is a degree of exaggeration which should be met head on and hit on the head, and that's all I was attempting to do. But it's interesting, Mr.

Chairman, that the Member for Riel, the Leader of the Opposition, should have engaged in his own Freudian slip, because in the course of his own remarks I think he made it pretty clear that whatever he was taking greatest sense of satisfaction in, pretty well related to the period 1968-69, Moose Lake Loggers, CFI, whatever. In other words , in their ninth or tenth year in off ice, they began, they began to take these steps. And what were they doing in the previous ten years of their administration.

Th� only tangible ref erence he had with respect to the first ten years was the formation of the Frontier School Division. But that, Sir, hardly was an initial model for Canada. There were other examples elsewhere in the Dominion of Canada in its several provinces where they could simply have picked it up at that point in time in terms of structuring, organizational structuring for education.

And lest my honourable friend gain too much momentum in his own mind as to the degree of success and 1pioneeringness", if that's what he's trying to in1ply about Frontier Division, I would sin1ply invite him to look at the historical record in terms of how many young people graduated from schools from Native communities in the 1960s as compared for that matter to the 1930s. Now the Residential School is not exactly held up as a model either but it turned out young people from grades 9, 10, 11, and 12, in a way that is quite comparable with the Frontier School Division in 1he 1960s.

So no point can be made of that one way or the other. It's only logical, Sir, that in an area as large as the north that somewhere there should be a regional centre with respect to sec ondary education. And since that tin1e of course, the amount of funding is a matter or priority that has gone into the Frontier School Division has been increased many many times manifold. But Mr. Chairman, it is misleading to suggest that the estab lishment of a vocational school on a regional residential basis is somehow getting at the nub of the problem. Mr.

Chairn1an, there is no substitute for learning in the place of work or in the field or in the forest. And that is where my honourable friends were particularly lacking in any initiative or effort . After the tenth year of being in off ice they establish-· ed a Moose Lake Loggers and did he ever hear any single one on this side opposite be critical of them for that fact. Now he makes referenc e, too, that they have some kind of good administrative rec ord. But I wonder, Sir, how good their human record was. I would like to know

1780 March 30 , 1976 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS (MR. SCHREYER cont'd) ••••• how much was actually cut, because that 's how you tell, how much was actually cut, produced in the way of cords of pulpwood? And, Mr. Chairman, that is a question which I would just as soon trust to the meiiDry of my colleague the Minister of Mines as anyone else. My honourable friends .need not - because in the first year or two it is alway s a honeymoon, practically any concept can get accepted for a year or two because it's the honeymoon period. I wonder how they would have faired in the longer run. And indeed it's a valid question.

Because if it took them ten years to establish something like Moose Lake Loggers - and I think that was there in shining maje stic isola tion - as an example of what they did, then I don't think that anyone need have held their breath as to how long it would have taken before they would have been willing to take the risk to try a second and a third and a fourth, etc.

And insofar as his remarks are with respect to CFI, I think that he is quite wrong if he thinks that anyone was critical insofar as my collea gues are concerned, and I, were critical of their intent or desire in terms of the establishment of a wood-utilizing pulp mill. I don't think anyone - you can search the records - I don't think anyone was critical of that. He says it fell into wrong hands. Now that is an observation, Sir, I can't let go unnoticed or unpassed. It fell into wrong hands. Now that' s an interesting statement, and I think that's Freudian too and let' s analyz e it for a moment.

It fell into wrong hands, Sir. They were the ones that signed agreements. They signed agreements with people who were later found by both American and Canadian in vestigation to have been people guilty of certain misdemeanours, to put it in the most unexaggerated of terms. There is an old English adage that people can not be made into CDooks, but rather into something that comes from a harbouring of their own personality. I don't make much of that old English adage either except to say, that we have the experience of a sister province which paid a total of $7 million in order to get out of an agreement.

The outcome of which of course , was nothing, zero, $7 million to get out of an agree ment signed two months earlier. In our case the situation was somewhat different. Not only would we have had to face the prospect of some $7 million for the pleasure of signing out of, or getting out of an agreement, but there were some 14 - I forget exactly - $14 to $19 million of purchase orders already placed which would have been subject of commercial litigation, plus the $7 million.

So if we had taken that course of action, of course , we would then have been criticized by my honourable friends opposite for the very opposite reasons. Suffice is to say that there is in Canada and North America a great deal, perhaps the best experience anywhere in the world in pulp and paper ma nufacture. My honourable friends opposite - or I shouldn't say them but their predecessors - saw fit to ignore all that and to go to some European domicile to hook up with people whose creden tials were , on retrospect of examination, questionable from the start.

Now they, too, were victims of some degree of collusion because there were letters of reference from the Royal Bank and other prestigious institutions, which didn't make the task any easier for my honourable friends , but let them not pretend that they were not the ones who gave the faith and credit of this province, the solemn covenant of this province to a commercial agreement which could not have been evacuated from without payment of penalty.

And if they thought we were the "patsies" to pay $7 million, plus penalty on the 14 to 19 million of purchase orders alre ady signed pursuant to their agreement, then of course they can think again. --(Interjection)-- My honourable friend, my colleague the Minister of Mines has a more specific memory than I on this matter, indicates 14 million already spent on site, or if not spent on site contractually committed for purchase orders to be spent on site. I don't quarrel with my colleague.

I'm saying that certainly it is no exaggeration to und erstate it that there was 14 million committed, and there would almost, well indeed not al most, as experience in Sas katchewan showed a year lat er, two year s lat er, $7 million approximately for the mere opportunity to disengage from a similar agreement. So if it fell into hands, Mr. Chairman, I can ass ure my honourable friends that they were not willing hands ; they were not collusive hands. They were not hands

March 30, 1976 1781 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFA IRS (MR. SCHREYER cont' d) ••••• that were stretched out to receive that kind of present, or manna from Heaven, we would just as soon have done without it. --(Inter jection)-- An d yes, what Alistair Stewart had to say was very very much to the point.

Alistair Stewart did indicate that there was a basis for being very suspiciou s of the ethics involved. --( Interjection)-- Well, my honourable friend the Member for Roblin probably thinks in those terms, I can assure him that if he ever has the respons ibility for being a Minister of the Crown in the province he would not be able to engage in that kind of luxury, and if he did he would be un fit to hold off ice, because he public trust comes firs t before any kind of petty partisan advantage. My honourable friend the Member for Roblin, if he wants to raise some old sores I'm prepared to engage in that with him.

I refer specifica lly to a letter that he wrote to the Editor of the Roblin newspaper in 1973 which I say today is a sh an1 on the record of any public elected official. If he wants to know what letter, I would be glad to produce it. Because that letter, Mr. Chairman, every second sentence is a mis statement of fact. --(Interjection)-- Well, yes, my honourable friend may take some pride in his election record to date, but that is only because we haven't been able to muster enough time to do justice to the telling of truth that is so much needed in that constituency.

But perhaps we can get around to that the next tin1e. But fo r the moment, Mr. Chairman, I say that with respect to what the Leader of the Opposition says, it is not that we are presuming to say that every single initiative that has been un dertaken north of 53 has been undertaken since 1969. But I am saying that with respect to training opportunities in the field, in the fores t, on road construction, in house building, does indeed date from 1969. The exception of Moose Lake, which was started a year earlier, and that, Sir, was in the lOth or 11th year of their administration.

Well what tangible evidence do they have of their effor ts prior to that? I would like to know; and I'm not aware of anything significan t in that regard. Insofar as northern construction, there was much less of it. I don't believe there was a northern preference clause, since there was no particular solicitude about northern employment opportunities; and it is always so tempting and so easy to take the easy way. Award the contract, the contractor comes in, his perso nnel and manpower can be fro m wherever.

The job is done, depending on the nature of the project any where from three months to two years, and aft er it's done the people leave and every thing is as it was before. In terms of nnmbers of people who have learned to use a chain-saw, and you don't really learn that in the classroom of a vocational school, Mr. Chairman.. You may le arn the rudimentary beginnings but you don't really learn how.

Chain-saws, a skidder, a mechanized skidder, how to operate trucks, dozers, caterpillars, letourneaus, you learn that on the jo b, and if there is no construction, or if there is no northern employment clause, then precious few get that opportunity, and therein lies much the difference. Did I suggest for a moment that a vocational school had not been established? But indeed there were vocational school s in the northern part of otl:J.er provinces. Well, Mr.

Chairn1an, a vocational school I repeat, is only a very partial beginning and unless it's fo llowed up with training on the jo b it really remains an academic exercise.

My honourable friends shoul d take some interest in the letter and the statement that was made to me by a for mer Manitoban o:f the 1950s who was commissionP.d to write a three-volume study - or a study, it happened to be three volumes - on t.l:J.e question of native communities, nativ e peoples in Manitoba, and af ter a period of absence of employment with the Federal Public Service wrote back last summer, that whether or not it was perceived or perceptible to us that we shoul d not despair because in terms of local communities of people being more involved in local sel f-go vernment, and in training opportunities, in construction or in the forest, that he detected an amazing, an amazing, beginning of a difference of a change.

And that kind of observa tion coming from a person, who I have no way of !mowing as to partisan affil iation, if any, and who has been away from the province for the better part of a decade, to get

1782 March 30, 1976 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS (MR. SCHREYER cont'd) • that kind of opinion is some what reassuring whatever the utterances of the members opposite. MR. CRAIK: Well, Mr. Chairman, I don't wish to let the record rest as it is. But I want to use the Premier's point that he dwelt on here at som e length, Moose Lake Loggers, to show that it's the sort of basis upon which his other statements are made as well. He bemoans the fact that there was no Moose Lake Loggers till ten years after the former administration had been active. Well, Mr.

Chairman, you know I think that even the former opposition may have been just a little critical of a government starting up a Moose Lake Loggers operation to do pulpwood logging, Mr. Chairman, when you had no pulp plant. Surely to God the First Minister realizes that the reason for Moose Lake Loggers was because you then had a pulpmill at The Pas, which occurred in the late 1960s, and that is when the Moose Lake Loggers came to bear. Now this is the problem. This is the sort of logic and administrative awareness that his government displays.

They would have gone in and started Moose Lake logging operations just to cut trees down. The purpose of Moose Lake Loggers, Mr. Chairman, naturally was to supply pulpwood to the pulp plant at The Pas which was going to be onstream at the same time that the Moose Lake Loggers was started. So I find it almost incredible, and probably very sy.m:bolic of the policy and administrative approach that this govern ment takes, that they would go ahead and start a project such as that without having anything to do with the logs or an ywhere to send them. Because, Mr.

Chairman, the Moose Lake Loggers, and all other logging operations as far as I know that may have subsequently started in the north are there because there is something to do with the product. So let's not let this far-fetched and just unreal statement be left on the record unchallenged, that somehow Moose Lake Loggers should have been started earlier than the time it was started, because it's very clear it was started with a clear purpose in mind of having an end product going into the pulpmill. Mr. Chairman, I won't comment further on the First Minister's comments.

I don't know that the Northern Affa irs debate is the place to debate the Churchill Forest Industries issue. We had some difficulty debating it last year because the government did not wish to debate it on second reading, and therefore the issue never did get debated. At some point in time it would be interesting to table and have another examination of the consultant's report, the consultants hired by this government, that indicated that after the receivership of the Churchill Forest Industries took place, their consultants hired Mr. Stothert.

His report to them indicated that roughly $2 million more of input was required for the plant to go into production. Well, Mr. Chairman, it was more than $2 million after this administrative whiz gang kids over here took over, it was more like $150 million before the thing got fully operational and, Mr. Chairman, that legacy historically will lay with this government. Mr. Chairman, that will lay with this government. It won't be the question of whether the Churchill Forest Industries was started with the right intent in mind.

The record will show - not the record that the First Minister puts on the Hansard - the record will show that the government made many efforts for many years, the former government, to start the project at The Pas, that the takers in Canada and in the United States were made well aware for a period of two years to have an opportunity to become involved in the project. The government may have been hasty in pushing the project, but they did it for the right intent. They did it to provide jobs for people of the north because those were the kinds of jo bs that those people were best suited to.

I notice the First Minister didn't make reference to the number of native people working in the min es. Because it's a well known fact that ,,hey are:1't as well adapted to that type of livelihood. That was well recognized by the former bovernment. There were native people working on roads before. Well, Mr. Chau:man, the Member for Thompson can refute this comment. They're not well adapted traditionally to working underground. It hasn't been one of their characteristics that they were well adapted. The intent of a renewable resource oriented occupation, Mr.

Chairman, was well established and ·I don't think it's going to be refuted by the people that know what they're talking about.

March 30, 1976 1783 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS (MR. CH.AIK cont'

d) Mr. Chairman, we'll let it rest at that as far as I'm concerned. We'll talk about it another day. But let's not let this nonsense go on the record that the initiatives of the north were taken by this government. Such is not the case. What is coming forth from the government is a protestation against the lack of real and tangible success, what they can now see, they have to resort to quoting the obtuse report of somebody that has come back ten years later that says I think there's a trend taking place that's satisfactory.

If that is the entire basis of the satisfaction they're taking from their activities in the north, Mr. Chairman, then let them admit that that's it, but don't let them try and justify their position in the north in relation to the fact that somehow the initiatives were not there before, because that is when it all started. This government has done nothing more except carry it on and expand it in certain areas, but the real initiatives were not taken by this government. MR . SCHREY ER: Well, Mr.

Chairman, this, of course , exchange could go on I suppose indefinitely but there are certain specific points again which cry out for some response. The Honourable Member for Riel would like to have it appear that before 1968 or '69, before going into operation of CFI, that there was no other opportunity for the sale or moving of wood product whatsoever in northern Manitoba.

He obviously is unaware of the fact that on the east side of Lake Winnipeg, the communities of Berens River and Norway House and Bloodvein, have existed there since tin1e immemorial, and the natural place or the natural direction of movement of wood product if they helped to get any kind of wood utilization operation going there would have been to Abitibi at Pine Falls. But it wasn't until the 1970s, Sir, that any --(Interjection)-- No, not just Moose Lake. Moose Lake is merely one exan1ple. There's Channel Area Loggers.

My honourable friends were in office for 11 years and they did not seem to manage to do anything with respect to the movement of cut pulpwood on the east shore of Lake Winnipeg to Pine Falls, and the opportunity was there all the tin1e. There was excess, if anything excess barge capacity all the way from Norway House , Berens River, south to the mouth of the Winnipeg River at Pine Falls where the Abitibi Pulp and Paper plant was. And it's no secret that Abitibi has been most anxious to co-operate in terms of providing a market outlet for pulpwood cut in communities such as Berens River.

They didn't start Channel Area Loggers. No, because it would have been (

a) a bother, and (

b) an expense. A MEMBE R: A risk. MR. SCHR E YER: A risk, I suppose subject to criticism if they made a mistake or two. So they put all their argumentation on Moose Lake Loggers, and I repeat that was in the tenth year of their adn1inistration. And they set it up in relation to CF I, which I say again they did enter into the agreement with the principals that were involved with CFI in the first place. Now they would like to have their cake and eat it too. (

a) That they weren't really responsible for CF I, but (

b) on the other hand it was CF I that made Moose Lake Loggers possible . My honourable friend, the Member for Riel, I'm sure hasn't even thought as to whether or not it would have been feasible with realistic subsidy to move wood from - because there's good timber stands in the Moose Lake area - to Hudson Bay Junction, or indeed to all of those who were operating sawmills in that area at that tin1e. And indeed, Sir, it is strange but true that they were moving wood product all the way from the Duck Mountains to Pine Falls in eastern Manitoba. But I repeat they waited ten years.

I am surprised to have my honourable friend suggest that we were somehow not willing - did he say? - last year to have a debate with respect to the history of CF I. My honourable friends, you know, cannot escape the fact that they signed the covenant of faith and credit of this province with principals in CF I who in retrospect were fugitives of the U.S . and Canadian justice. Would he now like to somehow insinuate that the fact that they are fugitives of u.s. justice is somehow our doing, that we, the Government of Manitoba, somehow caused the administration of justice in

1784 March 30, 197 6 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS (MR. SCHREYER cont 'd) • • • • • the United States to pick on these people? I mean I don't know what he's suggesting. My: honourable frien ds, if they are suggesting that somehow we would have exercised greater prudence, I would invite them to indicate in what specific way. We could have shut her down. Now that' s a very interesting suggestion. Well, in Saskatchewan, Sir, they did that.

It cost them $7 million for that pleasure , and that was, I repeat, before there was a single cent of committed purchase orders by the principals in Manitoba. --(Interjection) -- The Minister of Mines and Natural Resources will deal with you in due course, I'm sure, if you try to pretend that there wasn't some $14 million plus in purchase orders already signed by those who were in the contract agreement with the Province of Manitoba. But with respect to the specifics of Northern Affair s.

My colleagues, the Member for Churchill, the Member for Flin Flon, the Member for Thompson, as well as the Minister of Northern Affair s, will be able to deal with all aspects, trials, diff iculties, problems of northern development, and at great length because it is only logical that • • • --(Interjections)-- Well, Mr. Chairman, my honourable frien ds, you know, they like to be sarcastic but we do 'have colleagues who live and originate in the north, or who live in the north, who understand it, is it fair to say, at least as well as anybody in this Chamber.

I had the privile5e of becoming very well-acquainted with the former Member for Churc hill, the late Gordon Beard, No man takes it easily to leave his political party but he did, and you know , why, Sir ? Shall we research the historical record ? A MEMBER : Yes. MR. SCHREYER: It was told to me but it's also on the record. It was because of sloth. Sloth and disregard on balance on the part of the previous Cons ervative administration for the problems and diff iculties of the north. Why be hypocrites? What was the reason ?

The reason was that in supreme frustration he left because of sloth, disregard in relative terms • , • --(Interjection) -- They certainly didn't leave the northern development. That wasn't the reason, Mr. Chairman. You know, my honourable friend, the Member for Morris, thinks that he's in a kindergarten, that he can make some smart aleck comment and have it pawned off and accepted as the truth.

The other day he wasn't above smearing one of the two bond rating agencies of North America because they had written a favourable report about the fiscal prudence and financ ial adn1inistration of the government of the Province of Manitoba. So what did he do, he smeared them by suggesting that they were the ones who had given New York a falsely optimistic credit rating, but in his i�norance he didn't know it was the other of the two rating agencies that had given the most recent rating on New York City. But I don't make much of that, Sir, I didn't expect hin1 to know that.

But if he is suggesting for a moment --(Interjection) -- both gentlemen are alive, he can ask them. The then Member for Thompson, Mr. Borowski and Mr. Allard - Mr. Allard became involved federally in another political party - but he can ask them both. I have no fears on that whatsoever, whether they left because of matters having to do with northern Manitoba, its fru strations and problems, and that they felt this government wasn't trying maximum effort, and they will get their answer. It wasn't because of that at all. --(Interjection) -- They couldn't stand me, they couldn 't stand some of us , okay.

They couldn 't stand me , they couldn't stand somebody. But let it not be said that it was because of disregard and sloth with respect to northern Manitoba. At least let that much be clear. So my honourable friends had better research the record. They'd better research the record as to why a person in supreme frustration left the previous government, it was on northern iss ues and no amount of obfuscation of the record will hide that fact.

Having said that, I certainly look with confidence and with interest to my colleagues from the northern const ituencies dealing, slugging it out issue for iss ue on any single thing whatsoever that my honourable friends wish to discu ss. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Northern Aff airs. MR. GREEN: Mr. Chairman, it' s hard to stop in the middle of that kind of

March 30, 1976 1785 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFF AIRS (MR. GREEN cont'd) ••••• thing and not be wondering whether somebody didn't get in the last word. But if everybody agrees, I think we can call it a night. If one of the Pages will advise the other Committee that we are also closing up the MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee rise. Call in the Speaker, Mr. Speaker, your Committee of Supply has considered certain resolutions , reports progress and asks leave to sit again. IN SESSION MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, sec onded by the Member for Churchill, that a Report of the Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hour of adjournment having arrived, the House is adjourned and will stand adjourned until 2: 30 Thursday afternoon.

1786 March 30 , 1976 SUPPL Y - CORRECTIONS AN D REHABILITATION MR. CHAIRMAN: The meeting will come to order. I refer honourable members to Page 31 in their Estimates Books. Resolution 62(d)(l) - the Honourable Member for Rhine land . MR. BROWN: Mr. Chairman, when we left this before I had some specific ques tions that I asked the Minister and I wonder if the Minister at the present time is able to answer these questions that I asked of him? MR. BOYCE : Ps ychiatrists as far as the Youth Centre is concerned is one and a half psychiatrists that are assigned to that facility.

I wonder if the member could refresh my memory. I probably have the answer here but ••• MR. BROWN: I had some questions written down and unfortunately I can't find them. But I was asking the Minister to tell us just exactly what his program was . Which direction is he intending to carry his program? We have noticed in the Health Sciences Centre for instance that there is going to be a psychiatric care treatment centre for children and this is certainly needed in the Youth Centre and the Minister has just said that there are going to be one and a half psychiatrists over there.

But I am wondering what are we going to do for the adolescents ? It se ems to me that this is a problem in particular at the pres ent time where judges do not kri.ow, when they are sentencing adolescents they do not know which particular facility they should be sentencing them to . There was a case just recently where two adolesc ents had to be sent to Headingley and they really did need psychiatric care but there was just absolutely no alternate facility to send them to . I am wondering, Mr. Chairman, whether the Minister can tell us just exactly what he is intending to do with this particular problem? MR.

BOYCE: For the first part of the member's question, as far as the judiciary is concerned what he says may have had some basis in the past. But one of the things that the probation people did this particular year past was to sit down and dis cuss with the judiciary on one Friday night - I was really surprised at the attendance - there were only two judges in the whole system who were unavailable. One was out of town on a prior commitment and one had an appointment that he couldn 't cancel.

They were very anxious to sit down with the probation people to come to a better understandin g of what was available and how they could better improve the services. This is an ongoing thing so that the courts will be better apprised of what they should reasonably expect of the system. With reference to the people who are periodically transferred to Headingley, while they may be juveniles as defined by the law nevertheless there is a procedure that a person who is a juvenile may be raised to the adult court. Unless the member can give me a specific case, that is all that I can answer him at the moment.

With the future plans in this area, I don't know if the member has got a copy, we circulated a number of copies of these throughout the province. It was young people in conflict with the law legisl ation which is proposed by the Federal Government. As I sai d in my introductory remarks I personally regretted that the Solicitor-General felt it necess ary to proceed with the two pieces of legis lation that he did , rather than try and res olve this question of what is going to happen in the juvenile scene. As far as the courts are concerned they proceed by two statutes primarily.

One is The Juvenile Delinquency Act which as Federal statute and one provincial statute which is The Child Welfare Act. The main thrust, as people across the country see in the future, especially in the area of crime prevention, will be relative to the new proposed legis lation of the Federal Government . So as far as planning in the future is concerned the people have several different programs which they are ready to move on once we know just exactly what we are going to be moving into . MR. BROWN: Well it seems to me, Mr. Chairman, that we are talking about I believe it was 1,4 40 cases.

Most of th ese I would expect would be cases where these juveniles would have social problems . I believe that this is where most of the problems stem from is that they have social problems. If you have one and a half psychiatrists to help thes e 1, 440 people along I would just like to know, does the Minister think that this is adequate, that these juveniles receive adequate treatment?

March 30, 197 6 1787 SUPP LY - CORRE CTIONS AND REHABIL ITATION MR. BOYCE: Well I guess we could get into a semantical argument,o n the definition of the word "adequate". Is it enough or is it as many as I would like to have available? The answer to that would of course have to be no. But nevertheless when I said one and a half psychiatrists, there are back-up and support systems. For example in rural Manitoba, and especially in the north, there have been structured mental health teams.

In many communities the feed-back that we get on the utilization of this approach where the team approach deals with the fa mily and the individual within the family and part of the community, it is having some results. Relative to the Brandon Correctional scene, we have the back-up of the whole mental health hospital in Brandon and that is available. But relative to the Youth Centre itself, hopefully we can augment the profess ional capacity of our system. MR. BROWN: I believe that this one and a half psychiatrists that you were talking about was pertaining to the Youth Centre mainly.

How many psychiatrists are involved in the treatment of these juveniles throughout the whole Province of Manitoba? MR. BOYCE: Fifty psychiatrists all told. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 62(c)( 1). The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. BILTON: This care and treatment of juvenile offende rs , I will express my concern and I would wish that the Minister would quit fencing with us and he would just tell us what plans he has. He has got his professionals with him tonight and I have no objection to any of th ese gentlemen assisting the Minister by giving an opinion.

We are talking in terms of something like $3 million, Mr. Chairman, under this particular pro gram, an increase of $236, 000 over last year. I want to hear some concrete evidence as to what these dollars are to be spent on, and the title "Care and Treatment of Juvenile Offen ders" is there. I feel, Mr. Chairman, that it is the responsibility of the Minister to tell us tonight, to tell this Committee , and by telling this Committee he is telling the people of Manitoba, just what the intentions are. I don't want to hear him say to me, we· have a program for this or we've got a program for that.

I want concrete evidence as to what those programs are to eliminate the situation which is facing this province today. We have admitted this afternoon that we have got an alarming situation in this province and Mr. Minister you have been at this job long enough now that you have got to give us evidence as to what the intentions are to arrest this situation in the interests of the people of Manitoba. If they are expected to put up almost $3 million under this particular program, tell us what you intend to do with that money and by telling this Committee you are telling the people of the Province of Manitoba.

Let's have the evidence now. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 62(d)(1) - the Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. BILTON: Mr. Chairman, do I understand by the silence of the Minister that he has no evidence or he is not going to answer what I have appealed for on behalf of the people? That is why I am here. MR. BOYCE: Well I was waiting for some other questions. If that's all there are I will be glad to answer the member's questions. We should have continued on before the supper hour. I don't know what my colleague had for supper but •.. MR. BILTON: Mr. Chairman, I demand that the Minister withdraw that state ment.

That has got nothing at all to do with what I am putting forward and it ill becomes a Minister of the Crown to make a statement such as that to a Committee member, par ticularly when he has no evidence to back up anything that's behind his thoughts in making a statement such as that, which I say again is unbecoming a Minister of the Crown. MR. BOYCE: Well I would have to agree with my colleague that I have no evidence of what he had for supper, so I will answer his first question. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. MR. BOYCE : Well as my colleague knows I need all the help I can get.

As we were discussing before dinner, rather than me give the member or any other member of the Committee or the Legislature rather a loose answer to questions such as this, I suggested that he go visit the fa cilities and talk to the staff and see actually what is being done. I had mentioned that the increase in this sum was primarily because of infl ation.

1788 March 30, 1976 SUPPLY - CORRE CTIONS AND REHABILITATION (MR. BOYCE cont'd) • • • • There was no staff increase for the people assigned to this particular function but there is a $30 , 000 allocation for the operation of a group home and, as I tried to explain to the member in as definitive terms as I am able at the pre sent time, that the new thrust on juvenile and young offenders must of necessity wait until we get something definitive relative to The Juvenile Delinquency Act.

Because the actions are predicated on this particular Act, by and large, and the signs are that the Federal Government is interested in moving in this field and when they make an announcement of just exactly how much their involvement will be then I will be able to give the member more specifics. I may have jostled a little with the member but I know his sincerity and his interest in this field.

As far as the programs are concerned the specific people in the programs - have we got our Annual Report for last year handy? • • • Perhaps I can give the member the specific • • • This report was tabled in the Legislature and it gives a breakdown in the specifics of what is involved in this particular area.

There were 2, 021 cases of delinquency involving theft which had to be dealt with specifically; damages to persons or property were 575 ca ses; in need of temporary shelter it was 1, 465 cases ; breaches of The Food and Drug Act were 6 cases ; breach of The Liquor Control Act were 329 cases; breaches of The Narcotics Control Act were 59 cases ; The Highways Traffic Act were 48 cases; possession of offensive weapons were 31 cases ; arson 24 cases • MR. BILTON: Thes e are juveniles ? MR. BOYCE: These are juveniles .

Murder or manslaughter 7 cases and other cases were 42 for a total of 4, 598 cases that were dealt with in the juvenile system or released from detention through the Youth Centre who had actually been held in the Youth Centre. The people who were actually dealt with by the probation department, I said earlier, that there were some 10 , 000 in total. Now if he wants specific detail of how each one of these particular cases was dealt with I am sorry I am not in a position to give that inform

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-3-58
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 3rd hansardpdf 58.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	74d31c6b5238f81ce286eb7cd8c83352f5cb8a95

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).