VOL. 3 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF.ASSEMBLY FOR THE. PERIOD: 2:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. THURSDAY I JUNE· 29 I 1978 NO. 104

June 29, 1978 Tape No. 4.940 NM - 1 The-House met at 2:00P.M. ~!r. Speaker in the Chair. :-m. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would like to ..• .,.. .·· vTelcome to the gallerieji·~ four ·young students, two from Newfoundland, t~~o from the Province of Quebec. The tvTO visiting students are Robert Golan and Michaei Bernier, _·the two Newfoundland students are Cyril McCormack, Jr., and Hicheal Pidding.

These students are part of an exchange programme organized by the Canadian Conference of Chr.istians and Jews, the Quebec students visiting -Newfoimdland now, Newfoundlanders visiting Quebec later on, Je voudrais par.ticulierement acceuilir a 1' asseinblee legislative les jeunes etudiants Quebecois. I know all hon. members join me in welcoming to the House of Assembly the Newfoundland and Quebec. students under this exchange programme. SOHE HON. :~ERS : !:lear, hear! PRESENTING PETITIONS: !1R. SPEA.t<ER: The han. member for Terra Nova. :-!R. LUSH: !1r.

Speaker, it gives me great privilege to·present a petition on behalf of 650 students,approxirnately,from !1emor1al University, students from every conm~unity just about i:l the Province· of Newfoundland ,and the· prayer of the petition is that the students., the petitioners here, support the recommendations for change in current student aid policies as·presented to the federal a.\'l.d provincial governr.1ents by 'the rreosidentiill Task Force on Student Aid. l~r.

Speaker, in this brief presented by the Presidential Task Force, they have made fifteen reconmendaticns, all related to student aid, fifteen recommendations. !·!R • NEARY: All ignored by the goverrJnent. :-!R. LUSH: That is right. Plus an appendi:< tdth two recorncendations from the Union of the Student Council of :temorial.

Ju:1e 29, 1978 Tape ~!o. 4940 l1:1 - 2 ~!R. LUSH: Hr.

Speaker, the '·time does not suffice for me to go into all of the fifteen recommendations, fifteen reco\nmendations related .to making more monies available to students, making a university education more accessible,to the students of Newfoundland, and I ;rould only hope that all r.~embers will read these recommendations, this brief presented .by the Presidential Task Force because I am sure that it 1nll tell us something about student aid that we did not know1 . the' difficulty of getting student aid, the complexities now involved, making applications this sort of thing and the various financial factors that are taken into consic!eration Hhen allocating monies to students.

But let me comment just on a couple, ~·!r. Speaker. 'The first recommendation is asking that borrowing be kept to a minimum. And this obviously, Mr. Speaker, is an objection to the government's proposal of requiring students to borrow $700. 'The brief says that borrowing for students should be kept to a minimum and certainly a student should not be required to borro1~ more than $450 per semester, $450 per· semester. The new system is requiring the students to borrow $7001 thus causing the student to go $250 more in debt per semester, and the Presidential Task Force is objecting to this.

They believe that this is reducing the enrollment at l1emorial, denying the opportunity of many students to attend: university' particularly students from low income families, and,Hr. Speaker, 1ve cannot afford. to deny our young people in this Province the opportunity to develop themselves, the opportunity to get a good education. And this proposal by the government now requiring students to borrow $700 is certainly going to deny many students in this Province the opportunity, the right to an education. ·And this must be reversed. The reason, ~r.

Speaker, why we should not require our students to borrow this amount of money, the reasons are

June 29, 1978 Tape No. 4940 NM - 3 YR. LUSH: rather obvious. ,One, many of our students are forced. to borrow because of the high unemployment in this Province. Students cannot get Summer jobs to assist them in getting enough pavings during the Summer to get back to univeristy so they are forced to borrow because they cannot make the money.

Secondly, at the end of the tunnel, '.'lhen they graduate that the job prospects are not good and these two things combined; the difficulty of getting empioyment during the Summer, the difficulty of getting a job after graduation, these two things combined militate against or discourage our students from borr01ving. They do not ~~ant to see themselves saddled 'with $7,000 of a loan at the end of graduation. and no prospect of a job to pay for this amount. And therefore,

June 29, 1978 Tape 4941 PK - 1 Mr. Lush: ·for these reasons that the loans in Newfoundland, the Canada Student Loan prograrrme should certainly reduce student loans, should not be putting up the amount by which students have to .borrow, and putting a tremendous financial burden on our students. Pointnumber two, .Mr. Speaker, again recommendation number two relates to or is asking the government to establish a bursary programme. Mr. Speaker, in the last couple of years we have had scholarships and bursaries reduced in this Province substantially, by 50 per cent, I think.

And this was always an opportunity for bright students to get to university, to continue their .education by getting these scholarships_. Now these are cut by 50 per cent. So here are two very repressive moves, Mr. Speaker, the one of jacking up, raising the student loan from $450 to $700 bringing a tremendous financial burden on our students, and at the same time cutting out, slashing out scholarships and bursaries thus as I said before,denying students of ability, capable students,of getting money to further their education. Mr.

Speaker, I ask that this be placed upon the Table of the House and referred to the department. to which it relates. And ·r certainly hope that the minister will take a good look at this, and be able to come up with some posttive answers today·with respect to the prayer of this petition and supporting the recommendations for change in the current student aid policies as presented to his government and the federal government by the Presidential Task Force on Student Aid . . ·soME.HON: MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR; WHITE: Are you going to Table this resolution? MR; LUSH: Oh,yes. Table the resolution. Table all of it.

MR: ·sPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR: 'fl. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the petition so ably presented by my colleague,the member for Terra Nova district (Mr. Lush), a petition signed, Sir, by 650 more students from Memorial University which,when combined with the 2,000 or so who signed the last t\-10

June 29, 1978 Tape 4941 PK - 2 Mr. W. Rowe: petitions which were presented in this House brings it up to between 2,500 and 3,000 students who.have now signed petitions concerning the drastic cutback in aid to university students and to the Uriivers.ity, and the increased costs ~·hich will have to be incurred by students if they wish-to start with or carry on with their university studies. Mr.

Speaker, I do not know where any notion got abroad th~t was apathy among the student body at Memorial University because, Sir, this support for a very worthwhile, a very meritorious concept indicates to me the very opposite of apathy, shows interest by the students in the education system particularly that aspect of it in which they are directJy involved, as can well be expected. Mr. Speaker, as has been said on numerous occasions here~the last thing we should cut back is education. No matter how badly off the government may feel itself to be, we should not cut back spending on education..

We should spend more money on education and certainly we should find more money to spend on the study of educat.ion and see what is gone ~wong with our education system. But, Sir, that is merely reiterating important points which have been made on numerous occasions before. I would like to refer specifically and directly to one or two of the recommendations which were referred to.by the hen. member when he presented the petition.

There are some fifteen recommendations, I bel ieve,plus an appendix, another two or three there, so s.eventeen very serious, very important recommendations made to the governments of our country and. Province as to what should be done with regard to university education. Recommendation number one, Sir, is that borrowing be kept to a minimum. And. it states that it is recommended that-the Government of Newfoundland continue to do its utmost in keeping to the minimum the amount a university student is required to borrow to finance his or her education.

And it goes on to recommend that tt should be no more than the S450 Canada Student Loan per s·emester, with the ba 1 ance of the student's need bein9 met by government paid tuition and an non-repayable

June 29, 1978 Tape 4941 PK - 3 Mr. W. Rowe: grant. And, Sir, in the discussion on that recommendation some interesting facts come out which have been glossed over, and which have not been stressed by members on the other side when they talk in terms of our financial aid to students now being among the best in Canada, Sir, because we are comparing apples and oranges

June 29, 1978 Tape 4942 EC - 1 HR. l-1. ROWE: or chalk and cheese. There is no basis for comparison in many aspects of our education system compared to what goes on on the Mainland. For example, in the discuasion, the second paragraph ~akes mention of the fact tha~ it is also a fact that in other provinces Grade XII.and Grade XIII are in existence, these two grades, which are free or as free as the other grades in,say,Grade XI, Grade!. Grade IX.and so on irt high school, Mr. Speaker,

whereas in Newfoundland~ students who go to university after Grade XI have to meet the expenses that are incurred on going to university,

whereas students. in other provinces - some other provinces,at least - can continue on, continue their high school education beyond junior matriculation on to senior matriculation and Grade XIIT and so on and get university credits for those studies, Mr. Speaker, and then go on and maybe spend two or three years a·t a university as against the four or five that may h~ve to be spent in Newfoundland.

So~ Sir,. that point must be taken into consideration,too, when the minister gets up and says, 'Oh, we have a better system now of financial aid to students.' We should bear that in mind, that we are comparing two different systems and once you compare the things on a realistic basis, compare apples with apples rather than apples with oranges, you will see, Sir, that our financial aid to students is.rtot nearly as good or as satisfactory or acceptable as the Minister of Education and the Minister of Finance a couple of days ago tried to indicate to the House. Mr.

Speaker, another recommendation is the establishment of a bursary programme. "In the case of well qualified high school graduates from low in~ome families, it is reco~mended that special bursaries be established so that such students will not have to face the possibility of incurring a large debt at the outset of their university career~and so on and so forth. And also in the

June 29. ubs Tape 4942 EC - 2 MR. W. ROWE: discussion under that recommendation, Sir, it indicates that,to me, Sir, hein~us tact of this government's administration of education - when was it? - a couple of years ago they sliced the scholarship programme drastically? AN RON. MEMBER: Yes, that is right. MR. R. ROWE: Government has reduced by one- half the number of centenary and electoral scholarships available. And this fact they mention in the discussion has no doubt had an effect on some needy an~ well qualified high school and university students who would otherwise qualify for such ·awards. Mr.

Speaker, there is no excuse in a province such as ours where we have a long way to go in education for an administration, except an administration which wishes to defend the rights of an elite in society, to cut back on scholarships,of all things, Sir, which I would say - they are a little bit soft about it here in this discussion - I would say had no doubt whatsoever, Mr.Speaker, that the slicing in half of the scholarship programme has had a definitely adverse effect on the ability of many capable and qualified individual young men and women in Newfoundland in the last couple of years and has, in fact, kept them from attending university.

There are a number of other recommendations, Sir. I hope that some of my colleagues will feel moved to get into this· discussion and refer to these recommendations, because they should become part of the record of this House, Sir. I support the petition ably presetited by the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush), sir, and I hope that the students at the university make their voices heard even more loudly in the future outside this House and inside this House, Sir, because they are on to a good thing and they deserve more consideration from this government.

June 29, 1978 }lR. NEARY: HR. SPEAKER: LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Tape 4942 EC - 3 Mr. Spe_liker. The hon. the member for I accept the hon. the Leader of the Opposition's invitation, Sir, to stand and support this petition. This is the third day i~ a row now we have had petitions, I believe, signed by about- whit1 2,700 - All HON. MEHBER: Yes, about that. HR.

NEARY: -from 2,600 to 2,700 young Newfoundlanders, young men and women in this Province who are very concerned about whe~her ~r no~ they and the young men and women who are coming behind them graduating from our high schools will be able to get a university education. It is a terrible thing, Mr. Speaker. It is terrible when young people have to sit down and figure out~ 'Now can I afford to have a university education?' And when they look at the facts that are staring them in the face the answer is, No, they cannot afford it. Mr.

Speaker, it must be horrible for young people to have to go into the university and then when they come out the other end, when th'ey graduate after hard work they come out the other end owing

Ju:~e 29, 1978 Tape No. 4943 ~~I - 1 ~ffi. ~~Y: .. anyYhere from $8,DOO to $10,000 to $12,000. I often ••ondered tc m)tse1f ,- Hr.

Speaker, and I do not knm~ if t~is is a fair comment or not, but I often ~·TOnder to r.tyself, Sir, about t~e young l:J.dies ~~ho attend the univeristy t·Yho come cut owing $10,000 and $12,000. 'Hhat happens' the day tl1ey gr:1duate if they fall in love and a feu :'lonths after they ,.,ant to get marri::ad~ The young 1::an tr.:;~t the;t hc,•e fallen :!.n love :dth • . .:1.11 say, :·Tell first t!ling ~e t-:1.11 say is, "How much have you teen loar.ed and ilOl·7 ;;:ucil. do you owe for get:in;; :,-our education? I ~01 :.o c goir:.g ~o ::tarry you· !lecausc I il.:lve ~c pay off )'Our !lills." ~~-· ~CODY: T::e dowry.

AI: HO~. ~!E:!BE~.: That is an anti-dowry. It is, Sir, it is a very serious consideration and the same tl~i:.g applies :o the young =n, and he has. to, if he decides to get married after he graduates, i1e has to think about getting furniture and a home for himself and here he is \·rith an $8,000 or $10,000 or $12,000 debt hanging· over his head. So, Sir, I would say that students who .graduate from that university are very, very careful about romance for several years after they graduate because they cannot afford to .fall in love and get married and settle down like everybody else.

Wnereas the graduates of the vocational schools - I am trying to bring it down to earth so that the Minister' of Education will un.:!erstand it. I am putting it in baby talk for the hon. · "inister of Transportation and Communications. AN. SON •. :1E1BER: The population ekplosion. c1R. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, as opposed to this, Sir, t!1e graduates of the vocational school and generally speaking the graduates of the College of Trades and Technology and the graduates of the Fisheries College, come out debt free. They have no debts. They have gotten their training, they have gotten their skills, t!1ey can go )

June ~a --. 1978 Tape No. 4943 NM - 2 ~1R. ~!EAP.Y: out in the world and start to earn a living without this debt hanging over their heads. MR. W. ROWE:. That is the way it should be. MR. NEARY: Hy hon. friend says that ·.is the way it should be, Sir, and I would say to that hear, hear! Now, ~1r. Speaker, the hon. gentleman yesterday when he stood, the hon. Hinister of Education stands up and piously says, "I support the petition." And then the hon. gentlema:'l does nothing about it. Well, how can the hon. gentleman be so hypocritical as to stand up in this Ho·use .:.. HR. PECKFORD: A point of order. MR.

SPEAKER: A point of order has come up. SOMF RON. MEHBERS: Oh, oh! ~1R. PE CKFORD: I have a· sneaky suspicion, Hr. Speaker, that the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) is ranging into the realm•·of debate ·l·lhich is not allowed in the support of petitions and therefore I ask that the hon. gentleman be so instructed. MR.~ NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman merely said he suspects, Sir, he ·has suspicion. But I have not done it yet so I would say,Your HonoQr,I can carry on. MR.

SPEAKER: I would ask the hon. gentleman to withdraw the allegation of hypocritical and I think that is as far as I would go now and would point out the hon. 'gentleman may not proceed 1.rith political debate. :~R. NEARY: I 1.;ould gladly do that for Your Honour, Sir. ~ow, !·!r. Speaker, the hon. gentleman yesterday Hhen I ran out of tiille,I vas pointing out to the hon; gentleman that in the other provinces of Canada the grant comes first. The hon. gentleman shakes his head and says no. The ·loan is the last thing on the list, the loan.

Yes, Sir, it is and the hon. gentleman should read the Presidential Report and carry out some of the recommendations of that report. It is done in this order., Sir,

June 29, 1978 Tape ~o, 4943 NH - 3 ~!R. NEARY: grant first, tuition second, a loan last. In this Province it is just the r~verse, an·c: as I indicated yesterday, Sir,· it .is virtually impossible for students- it is true, my hon. friend knows; and my hon. friend can nod his head and say :10 but it is true:... that it is virtually impossible, Sir, for students in this Province to get the m~timum grant. Say your entitlement is $1,000, ~he maximum they can get is around $700.

It is virtually i:!possible to get the $1,000. :·ty :1on. friend k::ows that, because tile way the formula is '.Jorked out it is meant to fiupe the students inasmuch as the tuition is deducted from it. Mli. HOUSE: That is right. l!R. NEARY: Yes. Oh the miniter said yes. nut the minister says they are going to get $1,000 maximum grant. .In other provinces, as I said,first of all - :·!R. PECK!ORD: A point of order. ~-m. SPEAf-ER: A point of order has come up. :.'Jt. NEARY: Where is Hickman when we need hi6? ~R. PECKFORD: ~r.

Speaker, Standing Order 97 says, "There shall be no debate on a petition," and I suggest, :·!r.

Speaker, that the hon. member for LaPoile is in the realm of debate, he is debating the issues about government student aid policies and he is just not limiting his remarks to the number of signatures on the petition, to the prayer of the petition, but he is ranging into debate which is disallowed under Standing Order· 97. }!R. ·SPEAKER: Standing Order 97 does require that hon. members speak to the material allegation of the petitio::~ .anci · the< Standing Order. one or two removed from thD.t points out that there may be no debate.

In speaking to the material allegaticn obviously one is not restricted to repeating merely the number of names and·verbatim the·allegations~

June 29, 1978 Tape 4944 PK - 1 Mr. Speaker: what is in the petition. I think what is precluded is debate on specific issues, and I would not at this period to be in a position to say the hon. gentleman is out of order. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman does not want to hear what I have to say, Sir, but just want to end up by saying,because I am sure my time is almost up, Sir, that the University calendar also states that all students should be prepared to spend at least $150 for books and supplies.

And the other thing is, Sir, that th,e students 1~ould like the minimum wage applied to the formula that is used in calculating their assessment on their income that they earned during the Summer, if they can get a job. And therein lies another problem, Sir, they cannot get jobs so it makes the situation even worse. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker,.

I rise to support the prayer of the petition and I do so because one cannot help but realize from the names that have already.been submitted in the forms of petitions, and ~1ith the students who have met with members opposite from time to time in their plea to find some kind of financial alleviation so that they can acquire an education, and with members on this side as well, that they have come to the conclusion who is really concerned about our problem? Is it worth more than the flippancy and the jokes that apparently go back and forth in the House from time to time?

Because it is much more serious than that for the students concerned. I mean, where is the hope·that is held out to ·them, not only to get a good education but to remain in this Province? My hon. friend referred to the employment situation as it applies to students. The situation right now is - and I have raised this point in questions to the Minister of Industrial Development as to where t~e jobs are in terms of the 40,000 that we have heard referred to by this government- the situation now is that when our friend for LaPoile (_Mr.

Neary) refers to the fact that they are going to end up $8,000 or $10,000 in the hole, and that,in fact, if you ~Jill pardon the language, is exactly where they are going to be having completed their

June 29, 1978 Tape 4944 Pk - 2 Mr. Nolan: education. This is a substantial building lot. You can buy a building lot out in Newtown,I would'·suggest, right now for about that figur.e or slightly more in some instances. But this is what you are talking about. I mean,this is what most younCJ oeople­ all of us,have we not, iS ·this not what.you· work towards - SOME.HON; MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR; NOLAN: - trying to get ·sufficient funds to put the down payment in, and you have to have the land to put the house on it or to go to the bank or to the mortgage company to get sufficient money and so on.

So here you have this first mortal,econOinic blow~ \~hat a way to ·start off in 1 ife! MR. NEARY: That is right. MR: ·NOLAN: You know,our friend, we can laugh at our friend for LaPoile (.Mr. Neary), you know, that you cannot afford to fall in love, but that is exactly what it amounts to is it not? You know, I mean that is a dowry in reverse. . AN.HON. MEMBER: Bringing up would-be families . MR. NOLAN: Yes. I mean,I have heard of planned parenthood, but this is going to hell with it. SOME.HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! . MR: NOLAN: The fact is, Mr. Speaker - pardon me, Mr.

Speaker, but the fact is that this situation is one now that the students are asking for at least some understanding. They are not suggesting that we can all come up with the econcimic.answers. \~e.know we have economic problems and so on. But what they are saying is if you are going to stand up on Youth Heek and Education ~Jeek and all the other ~teeks, saying youth is our most important resource, they are the future of this Province, AN" HON. MEMBER: Education is a right. MR:. NOLAN: Education is a right.

If you are going to come off with all those platitudes, you have got to put.something in the way of policy where your mouth is. It is as simple as that. They are not prepared·to accept oratidiose sounds from any politician no matter what his political stripe any more, any more, because they have gone fro"m one extreme, if you 1 ike, to the other. Here they were j·ust a few years ago being paid for going to the university, having their

June 29,.1978 Tape 4944 PK - 3 tuition paid and so on; now it is gone full circle, and they feel disenfranchised, they feel, My God,what have we done to deserve this? How come the guys and gals five·years or so before us had this going for them, and all of a sudden .we get the double . whammy; Now that is what is happening.

And here is the situation that they are now faced with,. a situation where they have to decide, and I suggest to you that where we have students, ·and we do, who intellectually in every other way have the where~tithal to go into that university, if they are being barred because of discriminatory economy policies they are going to be bitter. Would you not? Would I not? .Qf course, you would. They are not lazy. They want their education.

And whci is more responsible than all of lis in this House,· who have talked about it either in the media or in this House over the years, go to the University, go to the Trade Schools, and so on. Their parents are pumping it at them, Get yourself a good education.

June 29,1978 Tape No. 4945 AH-1 ;·!R. :~01.&'1: we all have and now we are putting up road block after road block after road block, I am not saying the students are perfect and that we have to give everything and they nothing;no one is suggesting that including the students. But what i am saying is that we have got to take a whole new look at the whole educationcl thing as has been sug;;ested by any number of people on this side of the Rouse and from time to time on the other side as t~ell.

We have a situation now where it is economi·cally intolerable for them to go into the u11iversi ty and to come out in a financial state that could cripple them for the rest of their lives. Let us assume~ ·and I cannot·do the mathematics very quickly, but if you come out of the universlty and supposedly end up on the minimum wage, how long will it take you to pay back, I believe it is _$91.00 per month somebody told me 'that you are required to pay back, $91.00 bucks a month · w.s ·I mentioned here in the House yesterday?

AN HON.:•tENBER: (Inaudible) mortgage on a house. !·iR, NOLAN: $91.00 per month is what I paid for a one bedroom apartment when I was married some years ago. I paid it ior a number of years to the St •. John's Housing Corporation _incidentally .and. I thought ·it was very good accomodation. I paid not $91.00 per month, I think it t.•as $126.50 at the time but this continued on for a good number of years and I thought it was good value for the money at the time. I only mention this now to try to. acquaint it with the $91.00 per month that you are go!ng to slap on a young student, boy of girl, coming out.

Not~, if they want to go on from that, to go to be a lawyer or a doctor or whatever, I mean how can they do it? I mean. how many families do we know in my constituency or in the hon. member's opposite Who can take on this kind of a thing? Do they not have the same needs and aspirations for their· .children as anyone .of us? Of course they do. So all I am saying is that while -the.re is no educational economic Utopia, there has got to be something better tbsn t>hat we have now. There used to be on th!.s side of the House when some of my friends opposite used to be here a great bandying about of priorities.

Now I am asking '~here the priorities are as far as the students are concerned? It is not somethinz

June 29,1978 Tape No. 4945 AH-2 '!R. NOLAN: 1,•e can put off, it is r.ot sonethir,g that cun be delayed, it is something that has to cooe .into effect no1,; 1lith the coming of the new educational year beginnir.g in Sep te1~t:er. And September, by the way,is too long to wait·unless you intend in this Session in the Fall, if there is one, to bring in in the Throne Soeech a oroll:rllmmP t"~': will be retroactive beginning the first of September or whenever it is feasible and so on.

This is the only 11ay that students right now who are contemplating going'into the university, it.is the· only way they can dream of even applying to go in; they are not going to be !>arred because of their intellectual ability or any other reason, the reason is here within the govern:nent. We are now looking for leadership and it is time that we has some, Not. only thut,but a great programme for employnent for students and also the •.o~herewithal - we have to now come in ·11ith the progr~ing and in fact we should ue applying ourselves to it before this House closes now.

Let me suggest to the minister that perhaps he might today consider,~lith consultation froo the. Premier of course,. setting up a Select COJamittee of the House of Assembly to go to work now, We do r.ot need SWlllller holidays ,let us go to work no~1 •.•ith a col1llllittee, The former Hinister of Finance may want to apply himself to this task and the Hinister of Education; let us set up this Select Committee to take a look at the situation so that we will have something in place now. :-IR. DOODY: I will do it in my spare time. HR.

NOLAN: Well I cannot speak for the minister's spare time but if he has very much of it I suggest he could spread some - What is it? ~'I. HON .l1EHBER: HR. NOLAN: AN HON .MEl•!BER: :•!R;· NOLAN: Calcium choloride. ·Calcium choloride - Sodium choloride ·- Sodium, yes, Calciur.: choloride on Dunn's Hill Road where they are beir~ covered in dust out there. AN HOlli.MEMBER: ~!R. DOODY: Sometime~ referred to as ~~:rPAAD, . Strong on the Sodium.

June 29,1978 Tape No. 4945 AH-3 HR. NOLi\ . .-'1: Strong on the sodium. Hell,ma~be it·is wishful thinking, you know. Anyway I will close, ar. Speaker, by pleading, begging , anything.that appeals to the members opposite,to set up this committee now; right now in this session of the House, Let. them work throughout the Summer even if the House closes and .get to work on this'what is·really a priority item for the young people of this Province who have promise ,Hho ·:1ave ·the ability, .they have it all but· they are not getting much encouragement from this administration.

I certainly support c:1e prayer of the petition, · :·lr. Speaker. HR. 1-lliiTE: :·lr. Speaker. NR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Lewisporte. Before he starts, perhaps I should point o·ut that in the. House of Assembly it has been. the practice for some time, although it is not in most legislatures, where there is a five minute time limit,hon. members get a one minute warning;when there is a forty-five minute time limit they get a five minute warning• In most legislatures the practice is people are expected to time themselves and the Chair just then interrupts when time has expired.

June 29, 1978 Tape 4946 Dl~ - 1 HR. SI!EAKER: It appears to me that, the system of giving one and fiv~ minute notices is preferable but if hon. members prefer not t0 use'that system then obviously we do not have to. I make that point for obvious reasons. That is done because it is thought that that is of help to members. We will continue with that but I was not sure it met with everybody's agreement. Hon. member for Lewisporte. MR. P. WHITE: I am sure the·suggest~on made with respect to and what has· been the practice with respect to g~ving ~arnings is very acceptable.

When a member is speaking he has enough to worry about much less than worry about whether he is going to run out of time or not and I am sure it will be good to keep warning us about that. Mr. Speaker,I am glad to support the petition presented by the hon, member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) signed by over 600 university students again today, Mr. Speaker. It is surprising with the number of headaches that are being placed on students that they are so peaceful and so kind in bringing in petitions to the House of Assembly rather than trying to take matters in their own ·hands again. Because, Mr.

Speaker, the students,as is demonstrated in their recornmendations,are.being hit from three sources at·the moment, three direct sources,they.are being hit square in the face from those three particular sources. I will outline them briefly:number one, Hr. Speaker, the students have been forced because of ~he Budget brought down in Harch by this government to borrow more money,to go in debt. Before students at the university still had to buy their degree, so to speak, the. poor, students had to buy· their degree,so to speak.

Now they have to pay more for their degree.rhe price of their degree has gone up tremendously; it has gone

June 29, 1978 Tape 4946 DW - 2 HR. R. WHITE: up by about $4,000, At one time a student who came from rural Newfoundland,who came from a poor family could come to the univeriity,spend four or five years and realistically .eKPect to spend $5,000 or $6,000 to get a degree, Now the price of a degree has gone up by $4,000,considerably: more than the price of cars and houses and everything else have gone up in recent years. Number two, Hr. Speaker, in recent years,in the number o~ years past,students could expect to get jobs in the Summertime and would invariably.get jobs in the.

Summertime to help them over during the. t•inter months and of course this was taken info consideration with Canada Student Loan," The Canada Student Loan people always expected that students would make _money during the Summertime and therefore that was calculated on the basis of how much money they would have to borrow, So that is number one, !lr. Speaker be!.ng forced to borrow more and,number two 1no jobs available so that they cannot get money during the Sunnnert:!.me to help them out during the IUnter. And number three, Mr.

Speaker, and that is contained in reconnnendation numb·er nine in the report tabled in the House here today 1 if a student now, a bright student, a student who works hard to try and get a scholarship or a bursary,he is penalized if he gets a scholarship or a bursary. Now that is number three and that is absolutely shocking and it is absolutely ridiculous -·the student is penalized .

Instead of that amount of money,$500 or whatever the scholarship or the bursary or the award is that the student gets,that amount is deducted from the tuition or allowance portion of the student's funds and that is absolutely scandalous, Hr.

Speaker, regardless if the student is bright and the student is talented and the student works hard to get a . scholarship or an award and if he gets a scholarship or an award that is taken from his allowance and he is still required to borrow the same amount, Now what the students are asking is that the. amount of the scholarship or the award be deducted from.the amount he has to borrow tvhich is very simple, very plain and very straightforward and,I think, t'ir. Speaker, very, very sensible. So we have those three or four major points going against ~e students at this particular time.

June 29, 1978 Tape 4946 DH - 3 HR. F. WHITE: I support the p·etition, Hr. Speaker, and I would hope that the government would give some attention to the single largest and single·most -important groups in society today the students who are coming-up who hopefully will try to make this Province a little more better than it has been in the past. So I support the petition, Mr. Speaker. MR.. SPEAKER: The han. member for ~rinity - Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROlo/E: Mr.

Speaker, I was just reflecting there for _a moment and realized that I have been involved directly in education for a total of thirty-one years if you count my own university training, teaching at the university· and teaching in high school and actually going to school myself. So, Sir, it is with special interest and it gives me a great deal of pleasure to support this petition signed by 650· more students from the university relating to the Presidential Task Force •

June 29, .1978 Tape 4947 PK - 1 Mr. F: Rowe: Sir, I think back to, I think'·· it was around i965 when we had this great Thinkers' Conference at 1-'emorial University when we had the 1 i kes ·Of Kenneth Galbraith vis it this Provi nee. AN•HON. MEMBER: -Ga 1 bra ith. MR: F: 'ROWE: Galbraith according to my friend.

We had Rene Lesvesque,who was then1 I believe,a Liberal Cabinet minister, and Sir, ~1e had other great. thinkers, loca 1 and foreigners and Main 1 anders ·come to this Province as a· sort of a think tank, and the one theme that came out of that Thinkers' Conference, Sir, was that the best investment a province could make is in education, and particularly .in higher education, Sir. That was one of the main recommendations or one of the main themes that came out·of that particular conference a great conference, great men; great women contributing to that particular conference.

And., Sir, it was in the area of higher education that they suggested that the new provinces such as Newfoundland,an investment in higher education, that is the way to get a new·province, a young province like Newfoundland,moving·again. Because it is these·people who graduate from the university, Sir, who represent. some· of the potential leaders in our society in the professions of,say,dentistry, law, engineering,· etc. I am not saying, Sir, all of our leaders have to be university graduates; some of our best leaders are people who have learned on their own; you do not have to go through university.

But, Sir, the fact of the matter is a good investment in higher education means a great return, return· to the development; the economic development and social development of the· Province. SOME HON: MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. ·F: ROWE: That was proven, Sir, and stated quite clearly by these men and women who came to that Thinkers' Conference, and nothing has changed, Sir, in the last twelve to thirteen years, an investment in the education of our youth,particularly at the university .level, is a wise investment by any province, S.ir, a very wise investment for the future, social, and economic1development of our Province. · So, Si~. this government's policy is certainly one

June 29, 1978 Tape 4947 PK - 2 Mr. F. Rowe: of being penny-wise and pound-foolish when they see fit to try to save a few pennies by crucifying the students,making it more .difficult for the ·students to go to the university. Sir, I mentioned.yesterday and I repeat it again because I think it is very important,that it was indicated to me by a group of students that the greatest - it is not so much concern.,for example,on the Avalon or in St.

John's about this programme for obvious reasons~ and I say that we are going to end up ~lith an elitist university, a university for the rich, and/or a university that should be renamed the University of the Avalon. It is as simple as that. Because it is thepeopleoffthe Avalon and from the Coast·of Labrador who find it most difficult to get to the regional college and to the central university here in St. John's.

So the government, I repeat,is penny-wise and pound- foolish in not making a .greater investment in the youth of this Province, because when these students; Sir, come out of the university and they decide to go on to do· graduate studies or decide to go strai~ht into the work force, Sir, these students are going to make a very valuable contribution to the economic aspect of our. society and. they are also going to make a very valuable contribution to the social aspect.

So, Sir, cutting back on student aid and forcing them to borrow more money may save them a few pennies in the long run but the development of this Province will suffer do~<m the line if they save a few pennies in the short run but they lose in the long run, Sir. So with that, Sir, I support this petition whole-heartedly. MR. SPEAKER': The hon. the member for Carbonear followed by the hon.· gentleman for Baie Verte-White Bay . MR. R. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, I like torise again for the second day in a row and support this petition and in so doing supporting the cause of the students of Memorial University.

June 29, 1978 Tape ~lo, 4948 .m- 1 :1R. R. !100RES: Having been-or I am a graduate of !!emorial, :laving been involved greatly in student aid and the recommendations relating to student aid since 1970,I do knol¥ a little bit about~them. And I know enough to knolv that of the fifteen recommendations submitted by this Presidential Task Force of the university and the Students'. Union combined,eleven of them, eleven of the fifteen •Jere 'recom~:~ended in 1973 in a less sophisticated and elaborated form. Now that is not to take anything away from the present student union executive.

I know the present student president, a young man by 'the name of Trask from Gander, one of·the finest young men this Province ·has_ produced thus far. I have !~~own him for years and I know that he ·has no provincial politics,not to my knowledge,and I knm• that he has the desire, the welfare and the interest of the students at heart first.

That is not to take anything away from that executive,but in 1973 the then president of the Students' Union also submitted a task force recommendation to this government lvith eleven of the fifteen recommendations now being submitted ,:No,t one of those recommendations ~-Tere enacted or acted upon and I predict that not one single one of them will be acted upon this time.

What they did in 1973,this government,what they .did in 1973 was to buy off the president ·of the Students Union and make him the executive assistant to the Premier - sold out the students of Hemorial University and the government perpetrated ii. it ,buying him off. lir. Speaker, it does not surprise me at all - "!R. PECKFORD: A point of order, ~!r. Speaker. ~~. SPEAKER: A point of order. Order, please! ~1R. PECKFORD: A point of order, ~1r. Speaker. The statement by the hon. menber for Carbonear that the government bought off the fo~er president of the Students Union at the university, to me, ~1r.

Speal:er, sr.:acks of breakinz the rules of this Hcuse\number one,and I thi~l-': that the hen. member should retract that. It is an allecation i~puti~g motive on the government 1 s part. Number t1vo, Mr, Speaker, those kinds cf stntements are provocative and are c'.ebatable and therefore are out of order a3 it ralates to the supporting of petitions. So I would ask, Mr. Speaker, that the hen, member for Carbonear be asked to wit:l<:r.:l;;

J:; - 2 t!lat :;tatement ~hat t~e ~ovc.r:lment bou;i:.~.t off a fon::er presic!ent of =he Student's Unior.,. at university and that he alsp l:.a instructed to be in order in his support of a petition. To that J?Oint of order, Hr. Speaker. :rr:.. SPEAKEP.: The :1on. member for LaPoile. :-:r.. !·lEARY: It is perfectly in order, ~!r. Speaker, for a member in this House to t;:~lk about political pay-offs. There is not!1ing :vron;; ~d =h .that, Sir. That is parliamentary and the !'lon. gentleman is referring to a political promise or pay-off that was made to a former president of the student union.

We. understand now that :-!r. Rex Hurphy, 1~ho is to be the candidate in Bonavista-Trinity-Conception,will soon end up in the Premier's office as a special or executive assistant. That is a political pay-off. T.~ere is nothing wrong with it, Sir. There is nothing in Beauchesne or !-!ay that says it is unparliamentary. I ask Your Honour to ask the gentleman. to restrain himself or get the Government House Leader back so my friend can continue with his discussion, }!R. SPEAKER: Order, please! Just to reiterate ,the stateinents or. petitions should confine themselves to a comment or a

summary of the statement made by the petitioners, a comment on the number of signatures or supporters of the petition and a co=ent on the material allegations in the petition. As far as I recall the petition there was no allegation in the petition to the effect that former students or presidents had been enticed into government service or any similar matter like that. So that allegation was not.in the petition 9 therefore I would have to say ) that'it is not a matter for proper comment at this time. I think that is as far as I need go. :-m. R. !100RES: Mr. Speaker, because of that irresponsible interruption , my time is up. Thank you. i1R. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Baie Verte-White Bay.

June 29.. 1978 Tape 4949 PK - 1 MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, once again I want to have a brief word or two to say in support· of the prayer of this petition so ably .presented by my colleague on behalf of 650 or so students at the University. It brings to about 3,000 now, Your Honour, in the last three days, university students who had seen fit to petition this government with regard to their policy in student aid cutbacks· and so on.

However, Sir, the prayer of the petition is a little bit more narrow than that today in that r think it addresses itself mainly to the Presidential Task Force Report that has been submitted to this government and to the Government of Canada. And it is with that report that I - or in connection with that report that I want to make a few brief re(Tlarks. My colleagues have referred to a number of the recommendations and I am more concerned at the moment, Sir, with regard to recommendation number eight which specifically deals with the Corner Brook· campus.

The Corner Brook campus, as the House we 11 knows, will provide the first two.years of university training for 95 per cent or 96 per cent of the.students from my district as well as ·a number of· the other West Coast districts, and·the Presidential Task Force Report· makes a very specific recommendation with regard to the establishment of a Corner ·Brook campus Student Aid Division. Now, Your Honour,in the three years· that I have represented that particular part of the Province in this House,in·September of each year there is no end to the problems that I encounter with the Student Aid Division in St.

John's attempting. · to serve the Corner Brook. campus of Memoria 1 University. There was some harangue and hurrah. in this House a while ago about telephone calls and credit card bills, and· I would say, Your Honour, that in September you would find that 95 per cent of my phone calls will be to the Student Aid Division in St.· John's trying to straighten out on behalf of students in my district attending the Corner Brook campus of Memorial University.

There is just no end to the bureaucracy and .the red tape that those students encounter. : So much so, Sir, that I. know of half a dozen cases over the past couple of· years- the minister

June 29, 1978 Tape 4949 PK - 2 Mr. Rideout: knows of a couple because I brought them to his attention - know of a half a dozen cases over the last couple of years where students have had to leave, they have had to leave the Corner Brook. campus the 14est Coast Co.llege at Corner Brook and go back home. They could not stay there any longer. -The University could .not keep them, or the campus could not keep them any longer because of the regulations, and they.just could not· get anywhere with the bureaucratic Student Aid Division in St.

John's attempting to h~ndle from 300 or 400 miles away the student aid·problems that had cropped up out on·the West Coast where there are some 500 or 600 or more students attending that college.

It is just unbelievable, Sir, that that kind of roadblock, that that-kind of-stumbling block would have been thrown in front of our students,first and second year students, Sir, first year students in there for the first time who do not know the problems of the University life and so on,. running up against that type of roadblock is just absolutely ·unbelievable, that the Depar'bnent of Education have not seen fit to establish a full-time Student Aid Division out on the West Coast campus. That is one of the prime recommendations in this report, in the Presidential Task Force Report.

It is one that I certainly whole-heartedly support, Sir, and I would hope that the minister will address himse.lf to it . and would tell us that coming this September the students from my district and the other West Coast districts who will be attending the Corner Brook campus will not have to go through the bureacratic red tape and frustration that they have gone through-in the past three.or-four years with regard to getting- their student aid cleared up so that ttiey can stay at the Corner Brook campus. Mr.

Speaker, I whole-heartedly again support the prayer of the petition and would hope that the minister will do something about it. SOME'HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR: SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hen. the member for St. John's West. OR; KITCHEN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. rise to support this petition· and to compliment the people who have presented it and who have spoken so far. This generation of

June 29, 1978 Tape 4949 PK - 3 DR. KITCHEN: students can truly be said to be a picked on generation. Six years ago, think it was six or seven years ago when this han. group came to power,the first thing they did was cut the mothers' allowances affecting the same group of young people. AN HON. MEMBER: That is right. MR .. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Order, please! 'DR. KITCHEN: And now there is no work. MR: SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Order; please! I feel the han. member may be getting into an area of debate and I would bring this to his attention. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! DR.

KITCHEN: It is not a matter of debate that the mothers' allowances were cut.·six years ago by that side, but perhaps it is not really related to student aid. This is also the same group of young. people who have no work,

June 29, 1978 Tape 4950 PK - 1 DR. KITCHEN: which is a matter of economics, but more than that it is almost a matter of philosophy, the philosophy by whfch people operate. And we have previously in the number of speeches that have been made here, the short remarks in support of the petition that have been made here in the past several days, made a number of positive suggestions as to how the student aid policy could be implemented, could be fixed up so that this q4estion, this problem need not occur.

He mentioned the other day that we could look at the education budget both of the University and of·other aspects of education and pare away some of the fat and tack it on to student aid.. That is one positive way .it could be done • . My colleague for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) mentioned that Grade XII could be implemented, and if we did implement Grade XII even on a partial scale it would save money in thef.irst and second.year, certainly in the first year of University,by which a person could take it in his high school at a cheaper expense to the Province and to h~mself, ther_eby saving the Province enough money to spend on student aid for those in senior years at the university itself. That is, take. the first years out of the University, put them in Grade XII in high schools at a reduced rate of cash per person that would save money.

Those are two very positive suggestions that we have made. I would like now to make three more suggestions as to how this problem can be alleivated. One is this,the troublesome. problem iswith the repayment of the loan -it is not the loan,it is the repayment:- and one of the problems is that the rate of interest is too high. I believe that the government should do something about this rate of interest. There is really no need for banks to make usury of students in this day and age. SOME'HON; MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

DR: KITCHEN: The government should get involved in that and reduce the rate of.interest that students can pay. Consideration might be given to having the oa.vinent amounts reduced from income tax. When you pay off your loan - a $100 a year, whatever; $1000 per year -

June 29, 1978 Tape 4950 PK - 2 Or. Kitchen: let that amount,support.ed by re~~ipts,be deducted from your taxable income. The government can do that tomorrow. And another thing we can do, we can set up a special committee of the House of Assembly of .two or three people , three or four people to look into this question of student aid and report back to this hon. House. Thank you, Sir. SOME HON •. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Reports by Standing' and Special Committees. The hon. minister. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. PECKFORD: MR. SPEAKER: ~1R. PEC KFORD: Oh, oh! t On a point of order, Mr· .. Speaker.

A point of order. As • I understand ·it, the Speaker went on to the next item under the normal procedure that is on the Order Paper, called for Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees, or whatever the phraseology is; and the hon .. Minister of Social Services was recognized, It was at that point in time that the member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) rose to suoport a· petition. AN HON. MEMBER: By leave. MR. PECKFORD: · So that therefore the order is quite well eastablished, and it is quite old in its tradition that petitions-have been over and that we are now on another order of business.

MR. SIMMONS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. SIMMONS: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. The hon. the member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. First of all I would -submit,contrary·to what th,e minister has .said,no other hon. member had been recognized,nor had I been recognized at that point in time,I might point out. But I would submit, Mr. Speaker, that the only- I do not. know about one, but the standard way that Mr . . Speaker· ;has determined in this House that the precedin~ order has been dispensed with is by calling the next order to see if there is any ensuing matter on the precedinn order.

And in the absence of anybody rising on the nrecedinn order, then obviously we will proceed to the next one, and that is the only way· Mr. Speaker -·or rather, the House.- has to exercise

June 29, 1978 Tape 4950 PK - 3 Mr. Simmons: its right to speak on a giNen order. I rose as the next order was .being called, and I feel I am fully within my right,without asking 1 eave of the House - I do not want to do it by 1 eave, I want to do it because it is my rJght to speak while the order is still before the House. The call by Mr. Speaker of the next order in an indication that he is about to move from the. order we are on to the next order if there are no remaining speakers, I submit, Mr. Soeaker. MR. SPEAKER: The point made in speaking to the point o.r order by the hen. the member for Burgee - Bay d 'Espoi r is. a ne1~ one or a new angle to it.

June 29, 1978 Tape :-lo. 4951 NM - 1 l!R. SPEAKER: Allow me to put it this way, that obviously when a routine order or a bill, whatever it is, is called and when an hon. member sits down, I think it is impcoper for the Chair to jump in as if it were attempting to preclude anybody else from speaking. But also if- nobody rises, I think it is equally wrong for the Chair to ua:i. t, so the Chair then calls the next routine order. The procedure up to now has been that when the next routine order is called and an hon. member wishes to speak to the preceding routine order, he does it by leave.

This happens not infrequently. This has always been the practice and I think it would be inappropriate to change it. As I say it is a situation difficult for the Chair. The Chair obviously does not and should not take any action by calling the next order so quickly as to catch people off guard; I think it is improper as t~ell for the Chair to wait when it looks to the right and left and nobody is standing.

So all I can ·say is that the procedure has been that the next order is called and then not infrequently an hon. member tvishes to speak to a petition and the Chair or the member asks for leave.· I think I would be required to follow that procedure which we have always followed unless and until the House collectively decides other­ wise. That I think would be by an amendment to Standing Orders or sessional orders or in some such appropriate way.

I think it has been such a precedent and followed so consistently in this House that in order for me to alter it I would need a concensus of the House or a vote or a direction of the House. That is my opinion. I therefore put the question, with the hon. gentleman's permission whether he has leave to speak to the petition. MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: But the hon •. member does not want leave.

June 29, 1978 Tape No. 4951 NM- 2 MR. SUIMONS: I wish to speak not by leave.~I- want to speak as mv right. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: I move the House adjourn, Sir, and not meet again until the Queen's visit. MR. SPEAKER: The motion is that the House now adjourn and meet after the Oueen's viRit. AN HON • MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR.. SPEAKER: Those in favour "Ava", contrary minded "Nay", I can .onlv sav in my opinion the "Nays'' have it. I can only go by voices, I do.not really know. MR. W. ROWE: Let the House divide. DIVISION: MR; . SPEAKER: Call in the members. Take the bell as rung.

June 29., 1978 Tape 4952 EC - 1 l!R. SPEAKER: Those in favour of the motion please stand: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition; Mr. Strachan; Mr. Fred Rowe; Mr. Neary; Mr. Simmons; Mr. White; Mr. Lush; Dr. Kitchen; Mr. c•llan; Mr. Flight; Mr. Cantiing; Capt. Winsor; Mr. Nolan; Mr. Rideout; Mr. McNeil; Mr. Jack Winsor; Mr. R. Moores.

Those opposed to the motion please stand: The hon. the Minister of Education; the hon. the Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation; the hon. the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture; the hon. the Minister of Health; the hon. the Minister bf Social Services; the hon. the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Environm~nt; the hon. the Minister of Industrial Development; the hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy; the hon. the Minister of Transportation and Comm_unications; the hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing; Mr. Lundrigan; Dr. Collins; Dr. Twomey; Mr. Wells; Mr. Goudie; N•il Windsor; Mr. Cross; Mr.

Patterson; Mr.Carter; Mr. Woodrow; Mr. Power; Mr. Dawe. I declare. the motion defeated by a vote of twenty-two·to seventeen. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. PEL:KFORD: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. Mr. Speaker, a point of order. A point of order. A point of order, Mr. Speaker. Well, I said the hon. minister, so I will hear th~ hon. gentleman to my leit on a point of order. MR. NEARY: House ·then, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: A point of privilege of the A point of privilege. Mr. Speaker, the hon. the member for Bay of Islands (Mr.

Woodrow), Sir, ~ade a very nasty and rude remark that is unparliamentary and I believe that

June 29, 1978 ·rape 4952 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: if Your Honour allows it to stand on the record it is going to do nothing but lower the decorum and the dignity of this hon. House per se. And I ask Your ffonour to ask. the bon. gentleman to withdraw the nasty, rude statement that he made or Your Honour name him and have him removed from the House. MR. PECKFORD: privilege. MR. SPEAKtR: Mr. Speaker, to that point of To the point of privilege, the bon. the Minister of Mines and Ener~y. MR. PECKFORD: Mr.

S~eaker, that is not a point of privilege. kt most it is a very specious point of order that the.hon. the member for L~Pdile (Mr' Neary) used the point of privilege, abused the point of privilege so that I would not be able to get up on a point of order. It is not a point of privil~ge and it shows once again the contempt that the hon; member and the bon. gentlemen on the other side have for this House, who cried out to have it open and are now trying two days in a row, deliberately trying to close this House so that we cannot debate the issues of the Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! On the ·point before me, I have endeavoured'to inform myself of what the hon. gentleman said, and if ~hat is reported to me is correct it was unparliamentary and I would ask the hon. gentleman to withdraw it. MR.WOODROW: It was a general comment, 'traitors'. I would like to say, Mr. Speaker, 'God guard thee, Ne~foundland'. I withdraw what I said, but I still say, 'God guard thee, Newfoundland.' SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: That disposes of the matter. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! .MR. SP£AKER: The bon. the member for Burgeo - ~ay d'Espoir.

June 29, 1978 Tape 4952 EC - 3 MR. SIHMONS: Mr. Speaker, I want to rise on a matter of privilege. It is something that I would have risen on earlier but there wer.e some intervening matters, and it relates to my wanting earlier. to speak to th~ petition. It is not a matter that can be dealt with now, Mr. Speaker. It i~ a matter that I w~ll just put to Mr. Speaker for his deliberation and perhaps he can give us some comment. or ruling on it later. But, Mr. Speaker, the precedent that is evolving in this House as articulated by Hr. Speaker in ruling as to whe.ther I had the right to

.lme 29,1978 Tape No. 4953 AH-1 MR. S L'IMONS: speak a few moments ago on a petition is,in my view as a member of this House,quite an unfortunate practice and it only applies really to the calling of orders. If you look at other proceedings in the House such as second reading on a bill,for instance, l·lr. Speaker at the appropriate time gives notice to the House that if a minister is speaking then the debate has come to its conclusion.

There is no such procedure, Mr.Speaker, in getting us from one routine order to the next and that has worked. to our: disadvantage and I give you an example, not the one of myself today,but the example of going from one petition to the next. We have had instances in this House this session, Mr.Speaker, where a member has risen, presented a petition, there have been a number of supporters,and then another member has .had another petition and Mr.

Speaker has called the next order and the. member,who could not have risen before because the other petition was being spoken to, he rose at the first opportunity and yet he had to get the leave of the House to present· his own petition and there are one or two cases I believe in this session where he was denied that leave, Mr. Speaker. Now I submit, Mr. Speaker, that that is wrong .and there ought to be some other way of giving notice - I put it that way, perhaps the Chair giving notice that we are about to move from one routine order to the next and perhaps I may suggest one way to do it would be for Hr.

Speaker to ask if there are any further spe.akers to a particular petition and then to call if there are other petitions before we move to the next routine order. And I point out again just to reiterate that there have aeen a number of examples where we have had discussion. on one petition and then before a member could rise in his place and present. a second petition we had already moved to the next order of business and only reverted because the House had given leave, and I think of one case . where leave was not granted, I do. not believe. this is a matter of leave .. or a matter that should require leave, Mr.

Speaker. i believe it is a matter of right for the members of the House t.o present petitions and to speak to petitions under the appropriate order of business. I do not beli·eve a memDer should be prevented from doi~g so just by the split second of timing that it takes for.Mr.Speaker to call the next order of business.

June 29,1978 Tape No. 4953 AH-2 MR.SIMMONS: Itought not to be acciaental; it ought to be a very deliberate thing that at some point Mr,,.Speaker says, "Are there any further speakers to the petition~ Are there any other petitions? And at that moment that becomes notice that the petition period is over and · Mr. Speaker is about to move on to the next order of business. And I submit that, l1r. Speaker, for Mr. Speaker's consideration. MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, to that point of privilege. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister• HR. PECKFORD: In my view, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Burgeo- Bay d'Espoir (Mr.

Simmons) is just muddying the .waters. Now I do not know if the rest of the members of this House were paying much attention when this matter arose,but I distinctly looked at Your Honour after the last supporter on the opposite side sat down, supporter of the petition, and Mr. Speaker surveyed both sides of the House befo~e he called the next order; he did wait to see whether any other hon. member was going to stand in his place and speak in support of the petition..

It was only after Your Honour had surveyed, because I was uatching Your Honour, had surveyed the environs of the legislature that Your Honour called the next order .• After Your Honour called the order,then of course the hon. Minister of Social Services got up,as \·{as his 'right; to present a report or whatever under that heaaing. Now, Nr. Speaker, there was,as I understand it,not too long ago an attempt by an hon. member on this side of the House, the hon.

Minister of Tourism,to present a petition and leave was not granted and so therefore he had to present it the next day.So there is no standard precedent or consistent set of incidents which would tend to indicate that leave is being· given always as it rela'tes to petitions once another order is called. So therefore you·cannot use that as an argument for now saying you can revert back to another order; that is not an argument or any substantiation cowards that kind of content.ion. So, Hr. Speaker, it is. clear that the hon. =ber is just trying to muddy the waters. The situation is you had given time.

After time was given you called the next order and to me everything is in order as it should be and as it is related and put down in the rules of this House.

June 29,1978 Tape No, 4953 AH-"3 MR.SPEAKER: Order , please! I do not think that there would be any benefit to be derived at this time in proceeding any further. All I will say is this, that I,and I suppose every speaker,follow certain patterns, procedures, precedents,· Obviously when there is a second reading ·Of a bill and substantive resolutions,.

June 29, 1978 Tape 4954 EC - 1 HR. SPEAKER: The House is always informed that if an hon. member who introduced the bill speaks again at that time he closes the debate, and this is a warning. The procedures and precedents which we have inherited and which to the best of my knowledge are identical with those of other parl1amentarj assemblies is that there is no such formula,for example 1 with respect to amendments if nobody gives up, or sub-amendments, or with respect to the routine orders.

I am inclined to think that if there is to be a change in our ~re~edents here that.it should be done by·motion, which alters the Standing Orders, or by a resolution which expresses the House's view that such and such a practice not be regarded as a precedent and that a different and specified formula be introduced .. I am in~lined to think it should be done in the formal manner and that formal manner is outlined in the House of Assembly Act.

Otherwise, to tinker and to alter outside of the prescribed way of changing our precedents, to do it in another way would, I think, tend to put precedents and procedures in doubt or make them ambiguous when they are not now so. Ron. members are obviously free to alter rules and the procedures are set there~ but I do think that that would be appropriate way to do it, but I do not think there is anything else much that I or the House can do at this stage . . HR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services. !1R. BRETT: Mr.

Speaker, I wish to table a Directory of Community Services which was compiled by the Community Services·council of St. John's. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. SPEAKER: ) The hon. the Minister of Health.

June 29, 1978 Tape 4954 EC - 2 MR. H. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I have the answer to question number 91 in the name of the hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Near~). The question is ~o.ask the hon. the Minister of Health to lay upon the table of the House the following information: 1) What are the names of those persons who as of the current date are members of the Board of Management of the hospital at Corner Brook, showing in eac~ case

a) the date on which he was appointed;

b) the term of his appointment;

c) the title of the position held, being that of chairman, vice-chairman, member or otherwise; 2) What is the value of amounts payable to members of the board in respect of

a) per diem •llowance;

b) travel, meal and accommodation expenses; c).annual salary ~n connection with the performance of· his duties in this respect. And the answer, Mr. Chairman, is that the names which I will now read are people who have been appointed for two years. The chairman of the board is Mr. J. N. Mullins; members are Mr. E. P. Poole, Mr. Keith Fillatre, Mrs. Agnes Fitzpatrick, Mrs.Millicent Slade, Ms Joan Wiseman, Mr. E. D. Giannou, Mrs. Jean McGinn and Mr. David Tizzard. That is the answer to part one.

With regard to part two, per. diem allowance, travel, meal and accommodation expenses are paid in terms of out-of-pocket travel expenses when there is any travel~ and salaries pAid is nil. The next answer, Mr. Chairman, i~ to question number 83 beginnirtg with the names of the members of the Board of Management of the ho~pital at -Buchans. The second part of the question is the same as the one I just gave. There is no per diem allowance, there is no salary. Out-of-pocket expenses are paid. The members of the board at Buchans are t~e chairman, Mr. Kevin Beresford; the members, Mr. Paul. O'Brien, Dr. R. F.

O'Driscoll, Mr. Andrew Ricketts, Mr. Edward Hamilton, Mr. D. W. White, Mr. Angus Lane, Mr. Carl Powell, Mrs. Lillian Blundon, and Mr. James Merrigan, Jr.

June 29, 1978 Tape 4955 Dl~ - 1 ORAL QUESTIONS HR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. HR. W.N •. ROWE: Mr. Speaker wOUld the Acting House Leader mind · tellitig us if the Premier is expected in today? ~IR. ·SPEAKER: Hon. minister. HR. PECKFORD: Hr. Speaker,I would be only too happy to indicate the whereabouts of the Premier. Yesterday the Premier had to ·leave and because of weather conditions drive to Grand Falls to speak to the Fire Chief's Convention which he had committed himself to speak to· a couple of months ago.

This morning he hoped to get back in St. ·John's .and was unable to be here for Question Period because of the weather and he had- commitments in Corner Brook tonight so he drove on from Grand Falls to Corner Brook this evening to be there tonight for commitments that he made to the senior citizens and the recreational people .of the \vest Coast• !1R. S. NEARY: ·HR. PECKFORD: Commercial (inaudible) So that is where the Premier is. The Minister of Justice is in Edmonton - MIL S. NEARY: We know where he is. MR. PECKFOR!l: - on an Attorneys General meeting and that is where both gentleman are.

They are about doing the business of government - MR. W .N. ROl-lE:. HR.. PECKFORD : Mr. Speaker what is all this now? keeping commitments and promises that they .had and carrying out the affairs of· the Province as is normal. SOME HON. MID!BERS : Hear, hear! HIL. S. NEARY: The Premier should get on Newfoundland's finest and he '~ould here for the Question Period. MR. SPEAKER: HR. I~.N. ROWE: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. That is .the greatest news we have heard yet, Sir, that the· Premier has decided to keep a few promises. SOME HON. l·!EMBERS: Hear, hear!

June 29, 1978 Tape 4955 DW - 2 i!R. i.J.N. ROWE: ~ir. Sp~ake r •· w_e.ll then let me ask· a question of the Hinister of Tr·ansportation who I believe is still responsible for the linerboard mill. responsible for the - Is he not? Is the minister i·!R. DOODY : Are you satisfied? l!R. H.N. ROWE: I am wondering if he is still responsible? l1r. Speaker, would. Your Honour mind sending an urgent message off to the House Leader. SU:.!E HON. l·:mffiERS: Oh, oh! i·m.. PECKFORD: A point· of order, Mr. Speaker. l•!R. SPEAKER: A point of order. i·!R. PECKFORD: I just want to clarify how the Question Period operates, ~lr.

Speaker. The hon. Leader of the Opposition has asked the question of whether the Hinister of Transportation and Communications is still responsible for linerboard mill and I thought that the leader should sit down then and stop asking Your Honour questions so that the hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications could answer whether in fact he is still responsible for the line.rboard. mill or not. ~!R, S • l~EARY: ~!R. I.J.ll. ROWE: What a jackal. Mr. Speaker, I can fully understand the look of disgust on Your Honour's face at that specious abuse of the processed of thit House. Hr.

Speaker, I assume Your Honour assumes, like everyone else, there is no point of order. I will sit down in case Your Honour wants to discipline the hon·. member. NR. SPEAKER·: I do not think there is a point on which the Chair can rule. As long as the hon. memb.er does not get out of order in asking his question, the method of so doing, whether he · t~as waiting for ·an oral answer or nod or tlhat would not be a matter on which I would feel inclined to-.make any ruling. MR. Sll!HONS: }!R. DOODY: The hon. minister.

Laughing stock of the whole country>' The Chairman of the board of Labrador Linerboard Limited, Sir, the applications for the position have not been to numerous so the Premier has managed to persuade him to stay on.

June 29, 1978 Tape 4955 DW- 3 ~!R. W.N. ROIVE: There is a sensible minister.If all the other ministers, Sir, had one quarter of the maturity and coinmon sense of that minister.the province would not be bankrupt. The supplementary, Sir, directed to the hon. minister who is charge offLabrador Linearboard is this, prefaced by a preliminary statement, Sir. Everyone in the Province, seems to be under the impression- I have. heard it on high authority, Mr. Speaker· that a deal is. imminent between the government and. another party with regard to the sale of Labrador Linearboard.

Sir, I have heard this from reliable sources and most people around the Province have heard it as well from other sources,and the people of Stephenville are wondering and speculating about it, Sir. I wonder if the minister would care to indicate to the House whether in fact a deal is in the works, hoJ close it is to being consumated, and when we can expect to.Jha:ve an agreement signed for the sale of Labrador Linerboard to a third party? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. DOODY: !·1r. Speaker ,everyone in the Province is not of the opinion that a deal is imminent.

There are not very many people who know otherwise ,c\.s I have explained to the House on several occasions during the past two. weeks in answer to questions from hon •. gentlemen opposite, the Province is in the process of negotiating with- the last answer I gave was three interested parties. The ante is upped a little bit now and we have four groups who are showing an active interest and concern in taking over the mill either in terms of management or purchase or some other arrangement. There is no daal imminent.

We have not come sufficiently close together in terms that are acceptable to ' the Province or acceptable. to

June 29,1978 Tape No. 4956 AH-1 MR. DOODY: either or any of the four parties with whom we are discussing. It is impossible at this point to indicate to the House at what time a deal will be consummated.There are far .too many unanswered questions on both sides to allow us to make such a commitment or such a promise. It could very well be that there will be no deal and I sincerely hope that that is not so.

If we can manat;e to interest a group ··-. .;. who will be responsible and capable of operating the mill over a long-term per.iod, then certainly. that is the object of the exercise. and that is what government is interested in and I sincerely hope that we can manage that.

But at this poin.t in time it would be premature to intimate that a deal is around the corner; it is far from being around the corner. ·I sincerely hope that we can change that over the next few weeks or next month or however long it· takes and we will contiiuie to actively pursue t~e options that are open and hopefully we Will come up with a solution to the probiems· in that particular area. HR. SPEAKER: A supplementary.

HR.W.ROWE: Could the hon. minister, Sir, indicate whether the government is trying to sell the mill to these parties7 · Is this the course of the· negotiations going on, to sell the mill to one of these four parties with whom the government is negotiating,or is it attempting to enter into a long-term or short•term~for that matter,contract for the operation of the mill or is there some combination of both envisaged? Exactly what is the government's aim and objective, Sir, in negotiating with these parties? Is it the sale of the mill or the operation of the mill? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister.

NR.DOODY: The question would appear to answer itself, Sir. Obviously it is in the interest of the Province and the interest of the people of the area to sell the mill to a reputable operator who can guarantee us that they will continue to operate the mill as a integral part of the economic well-being of that particular area over a long period of time. That is the ultimate object of the exercise and that would be· certainly the most benefical end result of the discussions and that is the area in ·which we are aiming. It may very well be we will have to settle

June 29,1978 Tape No. 4956 AH-2 MR. DOODY: for something less than that,but I sincerely hope that we. do not, The object would be to sell the milL to a company who will give some return to the Province immediately in terms of the value of the asset but more importantly to give some return to tne economy and tne ·well-being of the area of the Provine~ directly affected over a-long-term period. That is the ultimate objective, that ·the optima! objective and that is what we are aiming for, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: Hon. member for Stephenville. !1R.McNEIL: }~. Speaker, I am not clear on the answer you gave to the hon.

Leader of the Opposition with regard to the four interested parties for the Linerboard mill. Is the minister saying that there is an offer to purchase which has been received by the sales agents~Woods,Gordon, from the four companies7 An offer to purchase~ has it been received by the sales agents or is it'just negotiations? . HR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. DOODY: Hr. Speaker, I thought I made it abundantly clear but apparently I did_not. The Divestiture Committee, the group that is actively pursuing the sale or the disposition of the mill,are currently engaged in. discussions with four interested parties.

I ciid not at any time indicate that we had four offers on the table; I certainly would not want to give the House ttat indication. I have not indicated that we have three offers on the table 1 nor two nor one. I ·have said,and I want to make it abundantly clear ,that we have conversati·ons ongoing throught the Divestiture Committee with four reputable companies who are showing a very active interest in acquiring the facility at Stephenville and I sincerely hope that we can come to a satisfactory conclusion with one of these groups. l·JR. HcNEIL: A supplementary. HR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary,hon. member for Stephenville.· l·1R.HcNEIL: Since the new owner, or when we ever get one in place, will be concerned with a cheap supply of wood and since the transportation of that wood has been one of the major factors for the Linerboard mill to close,could the minister indicate to the House if the wood transportation study that was commissioned last year has been completed and if so when will it be tabled in the House? i)R. XItCI!EN: ( Inaudible)

June 29,1978 HR,SPEAKER: Tape No. 4956 The hon. minister. AH-3 MR. DOODY: First I would like to deal with that rather gratuitous aside from the member for St. John's West (Dr.KiLchen) and comment to the House that I would much rather be concerned with pious hopes for the people. of Stephenville than with cytlical asides such as the hon. gentleman just uttered. I might also say that the woods study, the transportation study is available, available to the Divesture Committee, it is an intricate part of the selling package that the people are dealing with.

I do not think that there would be any great. merit nor any great disadvantage in making that information or the contents of that study available to the hon. member if he so desires, I will certainly check it out with the people who are actively engaged it:

June 29, 1978 Tape 4957 PK - 1 Mr. Doody: the discussions, and if they indicate to me that.it will not jeopardize the discussions or the conversations, I will only be too happy to. make the contents available. I certainly see no reason off the top of my head why it should not be. There may be some thi.ng of which I am not aware; if so, I will reserve the comnitments and make enquiries. Thank you. MR. NEARY: MR; SPEAKER: MR; NEARY: A supplementary, Sir.

A supplementary, the hon. the member for LaPoile. · I would like to ask the minister, Sir, if the Harnett report on the controversial severance pay problem, if that report is yet in·, and if the government intends to follow the recorrrnendations of the Harnett report? MR;. SPEAKER: MR. DOODY: The hon. the Minister of Transportation and Communications. Mr. Speaker, I have not seen the report of the Harnett group. To the best of.my information, knowledge and belief it has not been forwarded to government. It is not in our possession, nor is it in the possession of the management· of Labrador Linerboard Limited.

When it does arrive we will certainly study it and look at it. Before we do that obviously it would be rather silly to commit ourselves to complying with the recommendations of a report, the contents of which are unknown to us. . MR; SPEAKER: MR: SIMMONS: conscientious - MR. DOODY: MR; ·siMMONS: relaxed. MR. ~J. ROHE: SOME.HON. MEMBERS: MR. DOODY: . MR: SIMMONS: The hon. the member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir . I have a question- the minister can relax, the I am perfectly relaxed. That is what we like about the minister,he is so Especially between the ears. Oh, oh! Another first for the Leader of the Opposition. Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Industrial Development. I wonder. if the minister would indicate to the

June 29, 1978 Tape 4957 PK - 2 Mr. S imtilons: House whether he was aware of this much talked about preferred list of contractors .which was used,~ccording to senior civil servants,to farm out work involving offices of various departments of government going back as far as 1972 or 1973 when he was the minister of another department. ·I wonder if the Minister of Industrial Development would indicate whether the preferred list of electrical· and mechanical contractors was used with his knowledge to give out work without tender to various contractors?· MR; SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Industrial Development.

OR; FARRELL: Mr. Speaker, I will be delighted to answer that question. \~hen I went into that department first there. were a few people getting all of the work. It was wide open,if my memory serves me correctly, for six months to-a year, then we put name after name on a list until I think it rose to a number of about seventeen or sixteen. At no time did I discuss, if I remember the last part of the member's question exactly, tell anybody specifically, you know, which direction to go in or who to go in at that time. I am not quite sure what the last part of the question was. Would you repeat it~please,for me? MR.

SIMMONS: Was it used with the minister's knowledge was the question? OR. FARRELL: I beg your pardon? MR; SIMMONS: The entire question was whether the list was used with the minister's knowledge. OR .. FARRELL: Oh well,I just answered it . . MR. SIMMONS: Yes. MR. ·sPEAKER: A supplementary? ·MR; SIMMONS: have a supplementary or so, Mr. Speaker, for the minister. Did he at any time direct any of the civil servants to give work to any particular contractor without reference to tenders? MR; SPEAKER: OR. FARRELL: MR; . SPEAKER: MR; SIMMONS: The hon.

Minister of Industrial Development. tlo, Sir; I arr. delighted to say at no time. A supplementary. The minister is aware that his statement contradicts testimony given .publicly by senior servants of that particular department.

June 29, 1978 Tape 4957 PK - 3 MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary ; did t~e minister orininate the preferred 1 ist of contractors- sixteen or seventeen I think he has mentioned as being the number - did he himself originate the list? MR. SPEAKER: The- hon. the Minister of Industrial Development . . DR; "FARRELL: No, Sir. Mr. Speaker, I did not. It was not done ·unil'aterally by any means. It was done collectively, by MHAs, people who· felt that they had not had any chance to get any work in previous years.

And we put them on, we put people on - we took people off that we. found inefficien~- and treated everybody pretty fairly, we felt. MR: SIMMONS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member. MR: SIMMONS: The minister has mentioned there were sixteen or seventeen contracors on the list. Is he satisfied,or was he satisfied at the time,that each contractor of the sixteen or seventeen, got a fair share of the work that was available? MR; SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Industrial Development. ·oR: FARRELL: ~1r.

Speaker, on this one,I was away for most of this period, and I did not know that at that time. It was not until - these facts or figures,by the way, which I .initiated - when I went back to that department )

June 29, 1978 Tape No. 4958 NM- 1 DR. FARRELL: was it discovered that'-·there were. certain areas where it was - But it was explained to me that they were giving good service, the ·people who got this· work, and at -that time that is what was told. But the-point was that at no time did I know exactly how much work was goin~ to any individual up to that time and that was before I ended up.- I was only in the department a short while at that time when my eves started giving me trouble. MR. SPEAKER: MR. SIMMONS: The hon. member for Burgeo-Bav d'Espoir. Mr. Speaker, for the same minister.

Is it not true that the minister received direct instructions that work be given without _tenders to certain contractors and that those direct instructions came from the Premier to the minister? l1R. SPEAKER: The hon. Minis.ter of Industrial Development. DR. FARRELL: No, Sir. I am delighted to say no to that question, and I will certainly be s~ying it at a later date as well. At.no time did I get any orders from the Premier to give special attention to any individuals. MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, the minister has answered one of the supplementaries I had so I shall go to another. Did the·minister at any time receive an offer, was he ever offered any gifts by representatives of the contracting firms which were doing untendered work with the government, or any such offers of gifts from the principals of those firms 1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Public Works. DR. FARRELL: Mr. Speaker, I cannot even remember the number of offers I got. I must have gotten thousands but I did not receive or take any of them. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, the minister has partly answered the question.but I would like to put it directly to him so there is no ·-

June 29, 1978 Tape No. 4958 NM- 2 MR. SL'IMONS: doubt about the answer he is giving the House: Did the minister, Mr. Speaker, at any time ever accept any gift or gifts from any contractor, their representatives or the principal .. of the contracting firms doing untendered work with the governmentZ Did he accept any such gifts at any time? MR. SPEAKER: The bon, Minister. DR, FARRELL: Sir, are you talking about bottles ·of liquor that were mentione(i? MR. SIMMONS: I am talking about gifts~ talking about gifts. .DR. FARRELL: Is that a gift? MR. SIMMONS: That is for the minister to say.

Perhaps he bought it, I do not know. DR. FARRELL: ~~ell, I feel - is that a gift or not a gift? I have it and I have received it. 0 And there is no doubt about it at Christmas time I received bottles of liquor; I received no gifts to my· knowledge. My wife apparently received one gift which was broken in the mail, something like that, of some - what, do you call· it?- glassware of something on a couple of occasions, but I personally did not receive any gifts. But I did without doubt receive some liquor. I remember when we came into this government first, Sir, we received a gift of a case of liquor each.

We were informed that that was the habit or proceedings that went on for years in the Board of Liquor Control. We cancelled it that year, Sir. But prior to that every Minister of the Crown received a case of liquor. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! l1R. NEARY: MR. Sll!MONS: 11R. SPEAKER: MR. SL'IMONS: MR. NEARY: DR. FARRELL: MR. NEARY: That is a lie .. That is not true. A supplementary. Order, please! ·order, please! A supplementary. Take that back because it is not true. Well,that is what we did, Sir. It is not true.

I- June 29, 1978 MR. SPEAKER: MR. SIM!10NS: HR. NEARY: Tape No. 4958 NM - 3 The hon. member for..Burgeo-Bay d 'Espoir. A supplementary, Ur •. Speaker. It is not true, Mr. Spealter. Be a man and take it back, it is not true. MR. SI~mONS: They are getting ·tender now, Mr. Speaker, getting tender now. A·supplementary for the same minister, Hr. Speaker. Well, let us get away from what the .minister has talked about, the Christmas time gift, the bottle of liquor or the small item in the mail, let us put a floor on it, Mr. Speaker.

Has,the minister to his 'knowledge ever accepted a gift from these contractors, their representatives or the principal of these contracting firms, ever received a gift,say,of a value of $100 or more to the minister's knowledge1 MR. LUNDRIGAN: MR. SPEAKER: MR. LUNDRIGAN: A point of order, l1r. Speaker. A point of order has come up. Mr. Speaker, first of·all,I think if the bon. member has any evidence of any wrong doing on the part of the Minister of Industrial Development that he should lay his cards on the table. Ur.

Speaker, if the member is allowed to continue this line of questioning,which inherently suggests wrongdoing on the part of the minister; it is not a matter of raising a general question so that it gives the minister a chance to answer it 1 it is a matter of suggesting criminality, wrong- doing, immorality, unethical behaviour on the part of the minister. Now this line of questioning, Your Honour, is going to get :into all kinds of difficulties in ,this Legislature and I suggest if he has ·any evidence of wrongdoing lay it on the table.

Do not get up and nit-pick and raise questions of immorality, and raise questions about the member's family, raise questions about the member's behaviour unles~Your Honour~he has any evidence. And I suggest he should be brought to task for this particular line of questioning. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

June 29, 1978 UR. SPEAKER: Opposition. MR. 1-l. ROWE: Tape 4959 EC - 1 The hon. the Leader of the As usual, Sir, the hon. the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan) does not seem to know what a point of order is. This is Question Period. If the hon. minister had had whatever it takes to stay on as minister,he would know it, Sir, beca~se questions would be directe~ to him.

This. is Question Period. these a~e.questions which my hon. colleague is raising, and asking the Minister of Industrial Development,as he asked the Minister of Labour and Manpower yesterday; ministers, Sir, who have had. their· names mentioned in a public inquiry going on and certain allegations made against them, ministers, Sir, who have not seen fit to honour their responsibility to this House of Assembly and make either a complete ministerial statement or to make a statement of any kind', Sir, to acknowledge their responsibility to the House and to clear up the implications and the allegations which ·have been made in this public inquiry.

I would submit, Sir, that my hon. colleague is well within his rights to ask questions of this minister, what he did or did not do, what he is doing or is not doing as a minister of the Crown, Sir, and I would humbly submit, Sir, that he be permitted to continue the line of questioning. HR. NEARY: Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: On the point of order, I think that the area in which th~ hon. member to my left has submi~ted his point of order and on which comment was heard by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, relates to the area in Beauchesne·, page 147, which states: "A question oral .or written must not:" -and there is a whole list. There are three which are particularly relevant here, I believe, one being "

i) contain imputations;" one being "

q) contain or imply chargei of a personal character;" one being

..... ::; ·June 29, 1978 Tape 4959 EC - 2 HR. SPEAKER: "

n) reflect on or relate to character or conduct of persons other than in a public capacity." I realize that this is a difficult area with respect to the precise application of the rules. I am not, however, in a position to state that the questions are not those which relate to public duty and performance thereof. They are not, in my opinion, questions with respect to one's role as personal citizen, but that there is a re~ationship to the discharge of public duty and responsibility.

So I think it is an area in which hon. members obvious·ly aware of t.he rules and their application here,. but to this moment my understanding of the questions has been that the questions are related to the bon. gentleman to my left in his public capacity and performance of his public duty and therefore I recognize the hon. gentleman for a supplementary. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, ~t goes without saying, of course, that it was in that capacity that I was addressing the question.

It is not my business what gifts the minister gets as a personal individual and I would not for a moment wish to ask him unless he w~nts to talk to me privately as a friend and we would exchange information about what we got for Christmas, but that is another issue. What I am interested in is those gifts or the possibility of gifts which may have related in some form or another to his public .capacity, and I think the minister was accepting the questions in that sprit. Certainly that is the spirit in which I was giving them. But leave it to the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan) to muddy the waters. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the supplementary . I add for the minister - and again I say to him that one of my reas~ns,if he wants motivation, .one of my motivations for asking the question is that there is now in the public record, as the minister is aware, statements to the effect

June 29, 1978 Tape 4959 EC - 3 MR .. SIMMONS: that he had been the recipient of gifts above the value of $100. That is why I put it to him, to give him an opportunity to clarify the issue. And r ask him directly, Mr. Speaker, ~he question I was putting to him - MR. NEARY: The Terry White accusations. Terry White said the minister got a television set. MR. SIMMONS: Yes, but also now- hold on now. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMONS.: Also I _am referring in part but not in whole to some testimony to the effect that there was a cabinet which I understand to be more than $100, just to give an example.

There is a statement that my colleagues referred to in which there were items over and above $100 alleged to have been given to the minister. And so I am asking the question to give him an opportunity to clarify it for us and I put it this way one more time, Mr. Speaker: Would the minister indicate to the House whether he has ever received from contractors, their representatives or principals of the firms involved, contractors doing untendered work with the government during the past three or four years, did he ever receive, did he ever accept gifts having a value of $100 or m6re at any time?

And I just use the $100 floor - it could be $200 - just to get us away from the incidental gift, a bottle of liquor and so on to which he made reference earlier. MR. SPEAKER: Industrial Development. DR. _FARRELL: The bon. the Minister of I am glad, Mr. Speaker, that in the f6rum of the House I carr say that I have paid for my television~m. As a matter of f~ct, I got one for a dollar. I won it in a raffle down at the Old Colony Club one evening,to my amazement. ~nd long before there wer•

Ju.ne. 29, 1978, Ta.pe. 4960, Pa.ge. 1 -- a.pb DR. FARRELL: any discussions that are going on about television sets, I had this set and it was paid. for and as far as having received any other gifts I certainly did not,to my knowledge, over that Summer. MR. WHI.TE : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: MR. WHITE: The hon. member for Lewisporte. A supplementary to the hon. the Minister of Industrial Development, Mr. Speaker.

Earlier when the minister answered a question that my colleague put to him with respect to the lists of preferred contractors,he inidcated that he c~rtainly did not draw up this list himself ·.and that the·re was sort of unanimous agreement. Would he tell the House who the unanimous agreement was between? · Was it between all members of the P.C.Caucus or- was. it just the Cabinet that drew up this list? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Industrial Development. DR. FARRELL: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is going back quite a while.

As far as I remember it was - there was a list there when I went there, Sir, with a couple of names on it. For the first, and I repeat, for the first time we loosened it right up. There was no list at allfor quite a period 1everybody went in. Then somebody would come in .and see us and put their names on the list of whatever. A lot of suggestions cames from·various members. I,at the moment - AN HON. MEMBER: Who were the members? DR. FARRELL: I am not going to say at the moment because I cannot really recall exactly 1 it is so· long ago.

At that time, as hon. members may remember, I became extremely ill around that period. I am not making that art excuse or anything like that because I certainly was there to initiate that list. But as far as naming individuals who suggested someone, or this one or that one,

June 29, 1978, Tape 4960, Page 2 -- apb DR. FARRELL: it may come back to me but I do not remember them offhand at the moment. I did not· expect the question. MR. WHITE: MR. SPEAKER: for Lewisporte. MR. WHITE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the member The supplementary to the minister is this, ·Mr.

Speaker; it has been clearly established at the public hearings, the Mahoney Commission, now by testimony from civil servants and from official·s in the Department of Public Works and .so on that there was blatant disregard for the Public Tender Act and the indication is that the minister was totally· aware of this. Could the minister tell the House whether or not he ever gave any instructions to circumvent the Public Tender Act or knew that it was happening? MR; SPEAKER: Development. DR. FARRELL: The han. Minister of.

Industrial Sir, I certainly deny that completely,. that I interfered with the Public Tendering Act at any time, personally, or had any involvement in discussing with any official of that department the breaking of the Public Tendering Act in any way whatsoever. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. MR. . NEARY: A point of personal privilege, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of privilege. MR. ·NEARY: During the Oral Question Period, Mr. Speaker, the hon.

Minister of Industrial Development levelled a charge, Sir, and I am sure the hon. gentleman made it probably with tongue in cheek, he was probably beside himself, that before the administration took over that ministers in the previous administration were delivered a case of liquor from the Newfoundland Liquor Corporation ·at Christmas.

June 29, 1978, Tape 4960, Page 3 -- apb MR. NEARY: Now I happened to be one of the ministers in that government, Sir, and I want to tell the minister that I did~ot get a case of liquor from the Liquor Commission or anybody else in my life and I want Your Honour to direct the minister. to take back that statement if the han. gentleman is man enough to do it. It is not true and the hon. gentleman knows· it is not true. +t is no good of putting up a defence by blaming something on innocent people. The hon. gentleman know-s that is not true, Mr.

Speaker, and ·I ask Your Honour to direct the_hon. gentleman to.take it back and apologize to the members - to the ministers. MR. SPEAKER: Development. DR. FARRELL: The hon. Minister of. Industrial Mr. Speaker, it was my under- standing at that time that that was the occurrence. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR·; .SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: remember who. MR. SPEAKER: DR. FARRELL: Oh, oh! Order, please! Order; please! (Inaudible) but you cannot Order, please! I am saying it again, I am not quite sure. I am saying it was my understanding. If my memory is failing as far as that is concerned, fair enough.

I think it has been failing since I came in here anyway, in many ways. It was my understanding that that was said at that time. MR. NEARY: It is not true. DR. FARRELL: Well, if you say it is not true it is not true. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I do not think the Chair can go any further on thi-s matter. As I understand it, the allegation was the hon. minister

June 29, 1978 Tape No. 4961 ~"M - 1 HR. SPEAKER: to my left was or the impression that hon. members to my right received 'X' from a public commission, the Newfoundland Liquor Commissiony we are dealing with a public body. Hon. gentlemen to my right said that this was not true.

The hon. gentleman to my left said, "Well,if it is not true it is not true," I think we are in the area of personal explanation as outlined by May, page 343,and both hon. members, the hon, gentleman to my right. has made his statement, hon. gentlemen to my left has made a brief one and I think that is as far - there is certainly no allegation of bribery or harrassment or condemhation or collusion or anything like that.. I think it is a matter of personal explanation which the hon. gentleman has made. MR. PECKFORD: Order 7, Bill SO. CAPTAIN WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, on a po~nt of personal privilege, Sir. HR.

SPEAKER: On a point of personal privilege. CAPTAIN WINSOR: I, like the hon. member for LaPoile (!1r. Neary), was surprised to hear the hon. Minister of Industrial Development state in the Question Period that it had been the habit for members of the government of that day to receive cases of liquor from the BoRrd of Liquor Control.

Well, Sir, I want to tell the mi.nister and I want to tell this House and I want to make it pretty clear that I never did in my whole political career ever receive a case of liquor from the Board of Liquor Control, from anyone, not a case of liquor, not a half a case of liquor, nor a quarter of a case of liquor. I do not use the stuff, Sir, and I would appreciate if the hon. minister would exclude this and take thi.s statement back because, Sir, it does have a reflection·on the character of all memhers,and ministers especially, of the government of that day. l1R. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition.

June 29, 1978 Tape llo. 4961 NM- 2 }JR. W. ROWE:. Now, :1r. Speaker·, ·the hon. minister aoparently does not intend to take back the slanderous and scandalous accusation he made· against members of the former administration, including, Sir, myself. MR. NEARY: to that. MR. W. ROWE: He has a great memory when it comes It has put evervone of us here in the position of having to stand up, Sir, and to dispute and refute that scandalous accusation, an. amazine show of memorv, Sir. - l·ffi. NEARY.: No memory when it comes to lists. MR. W.

ROWE: - .for a man who cannot remember what happened two ·years ago, or three years ago but has a tremendous memory. of what happened seven or eight years ago when he came into office. But he cannot remember any lists or preferred lists or anything or names of people that he was instructed to put on the list and so on, Mr. Speaker. He cannot remember any of that. All he can remember is some scandalous and slanderous accusation against me and my colleagues here who were in the former adminiRtration and people outside. this House, Sir, whose ·reputations are impeccable in their administration of public duty.

Now, Sir, let me join my colleagues by way of a point of privilege or personal explanation or whatever, because I do not care whether that hon. minister withdraws it or not, b.ut let me say for the record that I have not received cases or liquor or a case of' liquor from any publ-ic body, Sir, or private body at any time when I was Minister of the Crown for this government. And if I had received it, Sir, it would have. gone back fromiAlence it had come.

And Sir, I feel embarrassed to have to stand here and to make that statement, Sir, to defend myself against a slanderous and scandalous accusation thrown out by a minister, Sir, seeking to obviously drag a red herring across other very important matters, serious matters, Sir, of allegations and imputations and accusations against ministers of the present administration,

June 29, 1978 MR. W. ROWE: MR. NEARY: MR. NOLAN: Tape No. 4961 NM- 3 not the former administration. Your Honour should protect us over here. On a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. I am charitable enough to believe that the bon .minister opposite was terribly misled, maybe in a number of instances but,I mean,I believe that someone must ha~e said, or inferred to the minister that such was the case; Tnerefore.I am now prepared,and I feel I am speaking for others, to have that person come before this House and iet him state his case right there and then.

Because I do not know of any cases of liquor that were delivered to any member when I was in Cabinet, I just do not know of. it, from the Liquor Commission. So therefore I am trying to go at this in. a reasonable fashi!)n. I can only believe that. the minister,perhaps in an intemperate moment, blurted out what he did. But he also indicated quite clearly that he was led to believe, so therefore I can only assume it was either directly or indirectly by someone associated with the Liquor Commission of that day. So surely· I think this matter is important enough to have the air cleared on it one way or the other.

I do not think that any member opposite·or any member here, to the best of my knowledge, ever received a case of liquor from the Board of Liquor Control. Never, to the best of my knowledge. In fact,I am sure that they did not. So all I am saying is that I would hope that the minister .has some word of explanation and perhaps if he has been misled in this regard that he might be good enough to inform the House. Otherwise he is leaving a rather unpleasant atmosphere surrounding the whole matter because it would appear that the -

June 29, 1978 Tape 4962 p~ - 1 Mr. Nolan: well,if the liquor came fro.~ the Liouor Corporation, as he alleges, then that came from that. one body which has been charged with dispensing or selling liquor as an agency of government. So I would ask the minister if he can to explain the situation, and if he is wrong, as I know he is, to please withdra~1. MR; LUNDR~r.AN: Hr. Speaker, on that question could I just ha'!e - MR; SPEAKER: Order, please! I was about to·interject. Hon. members will recall how this matter developed'. An hon. gentleman to my right· rose on a· point of .privilege,which I heard.

The hon. gentleman to my left then spoke. I said at the time I could not rule that in a technical sense there was a breach of privilege, the prima facie situation, and indeed that is the fact. I cannot and do not so rule. When I am recognizing han. members it is under that general area of personal explanation because hon. members to my right,who were members of a Cabinet at a particular time, feel aggrieved and I feel have the right to state their opinions. I do not feel I have the authority to direct the hon. gentleman to withdraw the allegation he made.

I do feel,however, that it would be appropriate for ~e to ~ive him an additional opportunity to so do. That is,•I think, as far as I can go, and that is why I did.not recognize anybody immediately.. If he so wishes, I will give him the opportunity to so do. The hon. the Minister of Industrial Development. DR. FARRELL: Mr. Speaker·, that was my understanding; you know~ whether it is right or wrong I do not know. As far as my memory serves me correctly, that is what·I was informed.

And I believe I can say, you know, that I do not know whether it was done or not, but it was my understanding and I cannot go any further on the explanation. MR. NEARY: This is a very dangerous precedent, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR; "PECKFORD: Orders of the Day, Mr. Speaker. ·soME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!. MR; PECKFORD: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. Can we proceed with Orders of the Day? There is no one on his feet and I should like to call Order 7,

June·29, 1978 Tape 4962 PK ~ 2 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I do not thjnk the Chair can go any· further on this mater matter. MR.

NEARY: I would like to move, Sir, if it is in order, I would like to move, Si.r, that the hon. minister that made the serious allegations and' charges in an attempt to smear members on this side of the House, to defend the scandalous goin!ls on of the administration,that the minister be forced; be compelled, be ordered by this House to bring the person before the Bar of this House who made these scurrilous statements about the' ministers in the former administration, bring .witnesses before the Bar so that we can question· them. If we let this go, Nr.

Speaker, it is just going to develop, it is going to deteriorate .and develop into something that we will not be able. to control, Your Honour. "It is my understanding'~"It is my understanding;"sir, just look at the serious consequences of that,''It is my understanding." 111r.

Speaker, would suggest that the House should be very happy to be able to have an opportunity to bring before the Bar of this House the.person· who made that statement so we can put an end to the personalities and the smear tactics and the character assassination that we have seen going 'on in this House over the last couple of months. ·soME HON; 'MEMBERS: MR. 'NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Oh, oh! Who has been getting? Order, please! ~tho has been getting? The hon. the Premier is the King of the smear artists. 'MIL SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

I cannot accept any motion now,A relevant motion will have to be under Notices of Motion, Only with a finding of a prima facie then obviously there is a motion-that is the affect of that - a motion that then receives priority and comes before everything.A motion would have to get on the Order Paper in a different route,through Notices of Motion or some appropriate route. SOME HON: MEMBERS: Oh, oh! l1R, PECKFORD : Order 7.

June 29, 1978, Tape 4963, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: MR. SIMMONS : AN HON. MEMBER:· DR. FARRELL: MR;. SPEAKER: DR •. FARRELL:· · MR; SIMMONS : DR. FARRELL: Order 7. The adjourned debate on bill 50. The han. member for Baie Ver.te - White Bay .. (Inaudible) one hundred thousand bucks. Yes. On a point of order, Sir. A point of order. The member for - Burgee - Bay d'Espoir? - Burgee - Bay d'Espoir, that mobile mouth over there 1 just made a remark that I want retracted immediately • . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! DR.

FARRELL: I do not know· what the remark wa!;i., he mentioned the sum of $100·, 000 and I would like to have it retracted. I do not know what he was referring to but I want to hear an explanation. · MR. S'IMMONS : To that point of order or privilege or whatever, Mr. Speaker •. MR. SPEAKER: MR. SIMMONS: To.the point of order. The han. member. Perhaps the simplest and most concise way of saying it to the House and particularly to the minister is this, now the shoe is on the other foot. MR. WHITE:· MR. NEARY: MR. SIMMONS: Hear, hear! That is right.

The minister had a full opportunity to withdraw the scandalous and scurrilous thing and he excused it, Mr. Speaker, on the grounds that he could say it because it was his understanding. Well I say to the minister I have certain understandings and using the precedent that he has established in this House, unless he withdraws the former remark I shall start saying what are my understandings too. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR, WHITE: Do you want to hear a (inaudible) old buddy? Stick around for a few days.

/ June 29, 1978, Tape 4963, Page 2 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Grand Falls. MR. LUNDRIGAN.: Mr. Speaker, I am no Stanley Knowles and I would be the first to admit it, but this afternoon, Sir, I rose on a question of order and I quoted the fact that no member is a-llowed to rise and make a comment or ask a question which reflects on a person '.s character, contains inferences, contains imputations and ·the like and my point of order was not accepted. Well, Mr. Speaker, this is preci.sely what happens when members are allowed to edge their way into an area, Your Honour, of personal abuse.

Now the minister stood up and in answering his·question indicated, Your Honour - MR.· SIMMONS: Get to the point of privilege you are making. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, is there any way? I have listened now for a full half hour to three of four of those privileges - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ Order, please~ MR. WHITE: Do not be making a fool of your.self. MR. SPEAKER: I recognized the han. gentleman on a point of order and I will ask hiln to come to that point of order. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, the point of order is quite simply in support of the comments made by my colleague.

The han. minister indicated that if he was wrong he was wrong. He said that ten or fifteen minutes ago. It was his understanding, he threw it out in the heat of debate. "If I am wrong I am wrong." That to me was a.quite gentlemanly thing to say. He might have been wrong. Maybe the information was incorrect. Now, Mr. Speaker, ·we are getting charges laid from across the way about the character of the individual in ques'tion ,. the minister. Mr. Speaker, there has to be some abatement of this kind of attempt on the part of the Opposition to indirectly scandalize the minister. I ask, Mr.

Speaker, that his point of order be upheld and that that

June 29, 1978, Tape 4963, Page. 3 -- apb MR. LUNDRIGAN: member be asked to withdraw the allegation which he has made. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. . MR.' W.N.ROWE: I rise._to sp_eak ·to the point of order, the spurious point of order, Sir. My hen •. colleag.ue from Burgee - Bay d'Espoir is alleged to have said, I did not hear it myself, is alleged to have.said that it was his understanding that the hen. the minister received something or other. Well, Sir, .we have already established a precedent in the House, Sir, .that you can say anything. MR. N·EARY.: your understanding. MR.

W.N.ROWE: That is right, as long as it is Scurri·lous, .unparliamentary,. grossest accusations of all kinds against ministers or ~embers or former members, as long as you say it is your understanding. MR. WHITE:· Let her go • . MR. W.N.ROWE: Now, .Mr. Speaker, my hen. friend, assuming he did say, without admitting, what he is accused of. saying by my friend across the floor there, I am sure my han •. friend is quite willing to stand up and say the same thing as the minister said, namely, .that I may be wr.ong but it is Il!Y understanding.

Now, 'Sir, if that is the precedent which is set in this House for allegations and accusations of all kindsthen sobeit, Mr. Speaker. But the hen. minister has made his own bed and he must now lie in it. Or as my friend said, the shoe is on the other foot and he does not like it. Now, Sir, if he.is man enough to withdraw without qualification the accusation he made, Mr. Speaker, I am sure we·will bring an end to this kind of proceedings altogether. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear: MR.

W.N.ROWE:· But, Sir, ·if a precedent has been set in this House that you can say anything under the·guise of it being your understanding, and then say1 'I may be wrong, mind

June 29, 1978, Tape 4963, Page 4 ,-- apb MR. W.N.ROWE: you' and lash out all kinds of personal accusations of the gros.sest nature, then, .Mr. Speaker - MR. WHITE: At ministers and former ministers. MR. W.N.ROWE: -·let that be the rule, but let it not be the rule for one side and not the rule for the other side. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear~

June 29, 1978, Tape 4964,Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ The point of order as I understood it, and I did not hear what is alleged to have been said, was with reference to some statement from the hon. member from Burgee - Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) to my right. I am not aware that anything of any sufficient specifi·c nature was said that I can take any action on. There have ·been some references made by hon. gentlemen to my right and tomy left about the precedents,the possibility that the rules have altered.

The references to the· Question Period and to what may or may not have .. resulted from them and what hon. members may come to expect in the future 7 ·all I can say is this, that the rules are the same today as they were yesterday. It is a very technical,specific area which I have authority to. enforce, a very technical,specific area of parliamentary law, parliamentary procedure, parliamentary custom. It is in the Standing Orders, in the precedents and it is in the authorities thereon and in some cases it is Ottawa ·precedents and we go there. It is a very technical and precise one and that is all I can do.

In the other area of mutual courtesies, in the other area of courtesies that hon. members may wish to extend to one another 1I cannot oblige them to extend courtesies. They do or they do not. I can only enforce·the rules·but·not that much broader area·of courtesies which hon. members may or may not extend. My area of responsibility is limited to that specific area but I do want to emphasise that that has not changed, that particular area,and the rules applicable are the same now as they were yesterday or last week.

In that broader area I can encourage and hope but I cannot impose and I do not attempt to do the impossible. ..

June 29, 1978, Tape 4964, P.age 2 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Baie Ver.te - White Bay. SOME' HON·.· MEMBERS:: Hear, hear! MR~ SIMMONS: By leave, the hon. minister can withdraw. AN HON. MEMBER: How are you going to withdraw by leave? MR.: RIDEOUT:· Mr. Speaker, maybe the second attempt will be a bit lucky ·and I will get to finish the few remarks that I began on Tuesday evening on Bill SO.

Before we had adjourned at eleven o'clock on Tuesday night I had started a·few remarks on bill SO, "An Act To Establish The Northeast I Avalon Urban Region," and I have but a few minutes left so I would like to get on and conclude those few remarks. Now, Sir, as· I was saying on Tuesday evening,regional government in itself, which is the concept and the principle of this bill, regional government in itself is certainly, as far as I am concerned, a noble concept and one worthy of consideration.

In fact, Sir, I would go so far as to say that personally - I .do not want the minister. to get overjoyed yet - but personally I find the concept of regional government quite exciting. I think the concept of regional g.overnment, the principle of regional government is certainly exciting and challenging and can do many things for many parts of this Province. In fact, I would go so far as to say, Mr. Speaker, that regional government could be one of the cures,or possiblythe.cure, for many of the municipal ills that we have in this Province.

It could be the answer to municipal council problems in certain areas of the Province I am think, for example, Sir, .of areas that are as closely knit as the Baie Verte Peninsula, areas that might be as closely knit as the Burin Peninsula, certain parts of the Northern Peninsula and so on. Regional government in that context and in those areas could·be part of th