Manitoba Hansard — 17 June 1994 (Sitting 50, 35th Legislature, 5th Session)

35-5-50

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fd'th Session • Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker Vol. XLill No. SO • 10 a.m., Friday, June 17, 1994 JSSN 0542·S492

NAME ASHI'ON, Steve BARRE'IT, Becky CARST AIRS, Sharon CERIILI, Marianne CHOMIAK. Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY,Louise DERKACH, Lecoanl. Hon. DEWAR, <mgory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerr y, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, flDl, Hon. EVANS,Clif EVANS, Lecoard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon.

FRIESEN, Jean MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and PoHtic:al AfllUation CONS'ITIUENCY Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson Kildooan Ste.Rose Seine River Roblin-Ruasell Selkiik Concordia Arthur- Virden Steinbach Riel SLJames Lakeside Cbarleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley GAUDRY, Neil GD..LESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis St. Boniface Minnedosa Crescentwood Gimli HEL WER, Edward R lnCKES, George KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oacar LAURENDBAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWAY,flDl MANNESS, Clayton, Hon.

MARTIND ALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCORMICK. NoiDla McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK. Danen, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENB ERG, Harry STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jeny SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK. Rosano Point Douglas The Maples Inkster The Pas St.Nmbert St.

Johns Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Osborne Brandon West Assiniboia River East Pembina Portage la Prairie Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonn et Tranacona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Rossmere Kiikfield Parle FlinFlon La Verendrye Fort Garry Swan River PARTY. NDP NDP Uberal NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Uberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Uberal PC NDP Uberal Liberal NDP PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC Uberal PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP

3691 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, June 17, 1994 The House met at 10 a.m. PRAYERS ROU11 NE PROCEEDINGS MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABUNG OF REPORTS Manitoba BuDder Bonds Series ll Hon. Eric Stef anson (Minister of Finance) : Mr. Speaker, I have a ministerial statement for the House. On Apri125 of this year, I announced that due to the enonnous succe ss of the initial off ering of Manitoba Builder Bonds and the continued desire of Manitobans to invest in their province , the second issue of Manitoba Builder Bonds would go on sale May 24.

It gives me great pleasure to rise in the House today to announce that over 16,000 Manitobans have purchased in excess of $30 0 million of Builder Bonds Series ll. The combination of HydroBonds and Builder Bonds has now generated in excess of $230 million in interest for Manitobans. Proceeds from the sale will provide a local s ource of funds and go to work right here in Manitoba and will help the province to create new jobs in a variety of capital and provincial projec ts.

I would like to extend my thanks to the people of Manitoba who have shown pride and confidence in their province by investing in Manitoba Builder Bonds. Thank you. Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I thank the Minister of Finance for that good-news statem ent. It is certainly good to hear that Manitobans are prepared to buy the Builder Bonds, and as the minister inf erred, the interest payments on those bonds go to Manitobans and hopefully are retained within the provin ce, as opposed to interest payments paid to fore igneiS or people out of the province .

To that extent, the idea is good, and I am pleased that Manitobans have seen fit to invest in them. We do have conce rns that there is not sufficient capital investment in this province. The forecast by Stats Canada of capital investment for this year is that there will be virtually no growth, and that is bad news. That should concern all of us. There are other signs that our economy is not as active as it should be. We are not getting the growth that we should. Hopefully , these particular Builder Bonds and the re venue from them will assist in government financing.

We certainly are pleased with those Manitobans who were prepared to buy those bonds. We are very satisfied, but we would like to see a little bit more action on the economic front. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition) : Mr. Speaker, I have spent a lot of time in this House , as have membeiS of my party, talking about the retention of capital within this province--our own investment dollaiS. Theref ore, it does give me great ple asure to acknowledge and recognize that the HydroBond and now the Builder Bond program is obviously a very, very good idea.

I am very pleased to see that it is successful. My predecessor as Finance critic, Mr. Alcock, recognized that when these issues fiiSt came out, Mr. Speaker, and we continue to feel that way. I do, however, want to leave on the record that in new investment dollaiS in this province, there are approximately $640 million invested in new investment dollars through pension funds, through RSP funds, and we are still retaining a very small portion of those over the long haul . Every year, we see that drain of capital. This is an important start. It should be seen just as that, however-a start.

There is a need to continually be proactive and

3692 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 17, 19 94 creative in retaining those invesbnent dollars for our own people. I am interested in the Finance minist er's comm ents that these funds will help the province to create new jobs. One hopes that will occur. It certainly bas not occurred yet, but the retention of capital is a start. I think we are all looking fo rwatd now to any indication that those funds would be put to use by this govemment to, in fact , create jobs. It bas not happened yet, Mr. Speaker. ••• Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health) : I am pleased today to table the 19 94-95 Capital Program for the Department of Health. • (1 005) INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 2�An Act to amend

An Act to Protect the Health of Non-Smokers

(2) Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health) : Mr. Spe aker, I move, seconded by the honourable Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey), that leave be given to introduce Bill 26,

An Act to amend

An Act to Protect the He alth of Non-S mokers (2) (Loi no 2 modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia protection de Ia sant� des non-fumeurs ), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gall ery, where we have with us this morning from the Sir William Osler School 45 English Language students under the direction of Ms. Elaine Dale . This school is located in the constituen cy of the honourable mem ber for River Heights (Mrs. Carstairs ).

On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this morning. • (1 010) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Health Care System Disease Control Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Oppositio n) : Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier. Daily in this House and over the last couple of years, we have been asking questions about the government's cutbacks in the Department of Health, and the govemment bas repeatedly said that they are allegedly putting res ource s into the community for disease preve ntion and for early detection of disease .

Today , unf ortunat ely, and yest erday , unfortunately, we learned through testimony at a public inquiry dealing with the blood supply that senior health consulta nts and form er senior Assistant Deputy Ministers of Health have given testimony that early intervention programs have been gutted by this provincial government, preventative programs have been reduced by this provincial government and that we have been placed at risk by the reductions in services by the provincial govemment.

I would like to ask the Premier, why has he allowed the situation to deteriorate in this province of Manitoba in tenus of overall health, and as the testimony suggests, why has he weakened our ability to fight and respond to communicable diseases in Manitoba at the earliest possible point? Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Healt h): Mr. Speaker, we see it as our duty to be as prepared as we can for whatever kinds of epidemic situations might present in the future, as govemments have tried to do in the past.

In spite of that, there have been medical problems that have developed in the past, although I can say to the honourable member the recent meni ngitis vaccination program I think by all accounts has been run very well in conjunction with the fede ral, provincial and aboriginal leadership in this province . We certainly take seriously any comments made in this vein in front of a public inquiry. We, of course, await like everybody else the recommendations and outcomes that will flow from the Krever inquiry. I think in light of the

June 17, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3693 history of the mv infection, there is nobody in this country who should claim to be ready as we would like to be ready. So, Mr. Speaker, we will pay close attention to the comments that have been made and have a look at our prevention programs and our immunization and our disease control programs and monitor them carefully , as we have been doing all along. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the testimony goes on to say in terms of Manitoba labs-and we have asked the question about labs on four or five occasi ons. We have tabled the Hamm ond report.

We have tabled the Bass report. We have talked about the Anderson consu lting report. The testimony goes on to say that spending cuts by the provincial government and provincial laboratories strip our provincial laboratories of basic tools of SUIVeillance and testing that serve as a front-line def ence against epidemic. We have raised this question in the Chamber before to the government. We have quoted the reports that have talked about the skimm ing that is going on in provincial labs in tenns of the rural lab situation, or its creaming, I might say, specifically in the report, the Bass report. Mr.

Speaker, at the same time that we have been raising the question of labs and early defence and prevention, the government has cut positio ns. In this year's budget alone , they cut 11 positions dealing with the scree ning of population groups for various indicators of health disease , specifically cholesterol and mv . I would like to know, how can the government squ are its policy of massive cutbacks in ou r institutions with nurses being laid off and at the same time , cut back community pre ventative resources to deal in our provincial labs with detection of diseases? • (1 01 5) Mr. McCrae: Mr.

Speaker, I suggest to the honourable member that never before in the history of health delivery in Manitoba bas there been so much consultation and work being done and networlcing and integrating of servi ces than presently . I am afraid that what the Leader of the Opposition and his colle agues keep recommending day after day is a further gutting of the health care system in Manitoba which we will not tolerate . The honourable Leader of the Opposition bas made it clear that he is happy to defend the health care policies of the Province of Ontario. He bas said that.

Each day that he raises questions, I attempt to engage him in debate on issues in Ontario, and he refuses to take part, yet he says he is proud and happy to do so. He is proud and happy to def end the closure of 52 hospitals in Saskatchew an, proud and happy to defend the closure of5, 000 hospital beds in Ontario, and then he and his colleague for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) have the nerve to stand in this House and be critical of the mea ningful change that is going on in Manitob a to place the appropriate emphasis on prevention and promotion and co mmunity care. You cannot come from all directions at once, Mr.

Speaker, and be believed. Mr. Doer: That is the most pathetic answ er I have ever heard in this Chamber, Mr. Speaker. You have- An Honourable Member: It matched the quality of the question. Mr. Doer: Well, if the Premier (Mr. Filmon) cared about the situation in health, he would be worried about fonner ADMs saying that we cann ot fight disease anymore . If the Premier had the guts to stand up and answ er what is going on in his Health department, you would not have reductions in staff in the labs dealing with AIDS detection. I apologize, Mr. Speaker, for the use of Mr. Speaker: Thank you.

AIDS Prevention Programs Government Strategy Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Oppositi on) : This is a very serious situation, Mr. Speaker. You have a lab body that is saying they canno t handle the cuts anymore. Our defence is gone . You have people in community health who are experts saying that we have gutted the system so much that we canno t deal with the preve ntion of disease and epidemics at the first line. This is very, very serious.

3694 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 17, 1994 Mr. Speaker, we have asked questions before about AIDS, the fact that AIDS is spreadi ng, accotding to Health and Welfare Canada, and bas the potential to spread at a rate equal to the rate of AIDS that was contracted in the AIDS comm ODity 10 years ago in our aboriginal population. It talks about the tremendous at-risk situation here in the province of Manitoba, including in many of our urban centres. Mr. Speaker, Manitoba is one of only two provi nces in Canada that does not have a fonn al AIDS strategy.

We have also gutted all our preve ntative staff and now gutted our lab staff to deal with the situation. I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon), will be instruct his Minister of Health to reinstate our resources to prevent disease, to prevent disease spre ad, to prevent epidemics and to develop an intelligent and forthri ght and honest and aggressive AIDs epidemic strategy prevention program in the province of Manitoba? Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health) : The honourable Leader of the Opposi tion should have a chat with his spokesperson for Health, Mr.

Speaker, because during the Estimates process, we discussed at some length the development of epidemiology services in Manitoba and the department's intention to make that service more ef fe ctive, S() that we can have a better understanding than in past generations of the development of disease in Manitoba. So, Mr. Speaker, while I have said that we will look carefully at what Dr.

MacDonald and othe rs have bad to say before the Krever inquiry, it ought not to come as any surprise to the honourable member that the reason for having inquiries is finding out those things that we need to find out in order to make improv ements. That is exactly what we have been embaiked on in the last few years here in Manitoba, improving our health care system . I mean, you cannot defend Ontario and Saskatchewan on the one band and then come along and suggest that we should be criticized here in Mani toba.

When you look at the levels of funding for health care services in Manitoba over the last number of years, when you look at the percentage of he alth care spending in Manitoba as a percentage of total spending, which is the best measure of the commitment of any government, you will see that never before in the history of Man itoba bas any government been more committed to a safe and eff ective health care system than the present government right here in Manitoba. •

(1020) Laboratory and Imaging Services Layoffs Mr. Dave Cbomiak (Kll donan): Mr. Speaker, the minister refuses to answer the question. The minister completely misses the point . It bad to come out at a federal inquiry what is wrong in the department, and still the minister does not acknowledge the difficulties that were raised by our Leader and the problems in the department At least the minister could acknowledge the probl em, but, no, be is keeping his bead in the sand and refusing to acknowledge it.

My question to the minister is, why did you cut 11 staf f from your Laboratory and Imaging Services department, which undercuts the ability of the department to scree n for diseases like lllV? Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health) : You see, Mr. Speaker, the difference between my appro ach and that of the hono urable members oppos ite is that they will defend the approach in Ontario and the approach in Saskatchewan. I will ackno wledge that in Manit oba, there is always room for improvement. That is the diff ere nce in approach.

I remember honou rable members, when they were going around backing and slashing here in Manitoba, defend, defend, defend or deny, deny, deny, and that is not the right approach either, Mr. Speaker. Worlcing together with health care prof essionals, with he alth care providers, with health care co nsum ers, acknowledging where you are weak:, building on where you are strong , that is what you should be doing in building a good health care system that will be sustainable for ge nerations to

/ June 17, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3695 come, but I reject the approach that chokes the health care system to death being advocated by honourable members opposite . AIDS Prevention Programs Government Strategy Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan) : Mr. Speaker, when we asked the minister on May 19 why Manitoba was one of two provinces without an AIDS strat egy, the minister would not answer the ques tion, and he has refused to answ er the question today.

Why, given what we know, given what has happened, given that we are supposed to be emphasiz ing prevention, why does this government not have an overall AIDS strategy and approach to this disease? Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Healt h): Mr. Speaker, the honourable member raises the issue of an AIDS strategy. I have met with the AIDS Advisory Committee. That committee continues to do its woik and to advise the government We will pay heed to the AIDS Advisory Committee in the development of programs.

We have programs in ope ration now which are having an eff ect, and if the honourable member would care to look back on our discussions in the Estimates dis cussion, I can also bring forward facts and figures for the honourable member about the number of people who have been contacted, people we have woiked with in this particular area, at a time when the honourable member can ask those questions, and I will make that detail available to him . Mr. Chomiak: The members of the minist er's own advisoey committee are angey at some of the things he has done with respect to AIDS. Mr.

Speaker, we will provide the minister with an exam ple of an AIDS strategy from other provinces at some later date , so he can finally start to woik on that process . Public Health Services Government Support Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kild onan) : My final supplemental)': Will this government now enhance the ability of public sector labs, public nurses and others involved in the public sector to carry out their functions adequately so things like Chagas disease and other things can be screened for and so that the health and protection of Manitobans can be fo remost in the minds of this government, not simply cutbacks?

Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health) : Mr. Speaker, again, you cannot come in here and suggest that our 1aboratoey advisoey committees are not appropriate and then come along and say you have got to do something about labs. You cannot have it both ways, and, by the way, there is staff of private labs, people who day in and day out provide services in laboratoey services who want to meet with me, because they are veey upset with some of the things that the honourable member and his colleagues have been saying about the services provided by the good people who woik in private and public labs.

Health Care System Privatization Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition) : Mr. Speaker, last night, the chief of medical staff at Brandon General Hospital , a Dr. William Myers, made some very interesting comments, and I have a transcript of them because when I first heard about them, I was concerned about those statements. I want to veey briefly ask the Minister of Health what he thinks of them . The chief of medical staff, Dr. Myers , said private health care is inevitab le.

He went on to say that the sooner people accept that reality , the better off they would be, and he went on to say that it has become a veey sacred issue for politicians , but they have found they cannot affo rd it, so they are contracting the service and still maintaining the front that they are providing the same level of care. It is simply not true. Mr. Speaker, this is a veey influe ntial doctor in the Brandon community and indeed in the province . He has made those statements at a public meeting, the annual general meeting of the Brandon General Hospital.

3696 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 17, 1994 Will the Minister of Health today put on the record if he disa grees with those comme nts, put it on the record publicly today, because a very influential man in this community has sa id specifically that we must, he believes, move to private health care? •

(1025) Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health) : Mr. Speaker, I was not at the meeting. I did not hear what Dr. Myers had to say. It may be that Dr. Myers has person al opinions. I am sure the honourable membe r has perso nal op inions, and other people have personal opini ons. What we are co mmitted to here in Manitoba are the princ iples enshrined in the Canada Health Act. What we are commi tted to is the best-and I will quote Dr. Bill Myers from a conversation I had with him one day: We are going to have the best health care system we Canadians can afford to have . That is the way Dr.

Myers put it when he was talking to me. I cann ot account for anything he might have said last night, but we are committed to the principles enshrined in the Canada Health Act and the best possible health care system we can provide, wor king with all manner of health care profes sionals. I am happy to wo!X with Dr. Myers . I have had many co nversations with Dr. Myers about some of his views. I do not accept that private health care is inevitable, not as lon g as we have a will, as we do on this side of the House, to preserve our health care system.

There are some on the other side of the House who would move to destroy our health system , Mr. Speaker, and I will not tolerate that. Mr. Edwards: I appreciate the latter comments of the Minister of Health which are in direct contradiction to what Dr. Myers has said. I woul d ask the Min ister of Health to communicate those comments to Dr. Myers who, agreed, has a right to private opin ions, but he is a very public man. He stated it in a public venue, the annual general meeting, and he does have a signif icant amoun t of respect in the medical community , Mr. Speaker.

He went on to say that if you believe that, that is, that you can avoid a two-tier system , you are very gul lible, and I do not think people are. He argued a two-tier system would allow people to obta in services that medi care has had to ration or cut. Will the Minister of Health-obviously knowing Dr.

Myers very well-speak to him and specifically indicate to him that this type of theory, that we have to move to a two-tier system, is simply not on in this province and that he should refrain from comments such as that in public venues when they are so at odds with-when he is the chie f of medical staff at a hospital, and he is speaking to the ann ual general meeting? Mr. McCrae : Mr. Spe aker, the honourable member is right about Dr. Myers.

He is an extremely well respected practitioner in Manitoba, and he certainly en joys my respect There is no question about that, an d his services in the We stman area are valued very highly by many, many people in that area. I might not agree with everything Dr. Myers says, but I sure do not agree with stifling him and gagging him so that he cannot speak. I always thought, Mr. Speaker, that one of the things about liberalism was that people were entitled to express their opin ions, and now the honourable member wants me to stick a gag on Dr. Myers. Well, no, I will not be doing that, I can tell you that. Mr.

Edwards: This government has placed more gag orders on the thousands of employees they have in government than any other government in the history of the province . The record will reflect that I certainly did not ask the minister to impose a gag order. What I am asking this minister to do is to publicly express his rej ection of the theory that we must move to a two-tier private health care system, and he should contact Dr. Myers in his very influential position with the Brandon General Hospital and make that view known publi cly in Brandon and around this province today, Mr. Speaker. Point of Order Mr.

Jerry Storie (F1in Flon) : I would ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether this question, in fac t, is in

June 17, 1994 LEGISLA'TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3697 order. The individual whom the Liberal Leader is talking about is a private citizen. I am not sure that it is within the governm en t's purview to control what someone thinks or says in the province of Manitoba. Is that in order? Is it in within the area of the governm en t's competence ? Mr. Speaker : Order, please. The honourable member does not have a point of order. ••• Mr. McCrae: Well, Mr. Spe aker, to use an expre ssion often used by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer), the Leader of the Liberal Party seems to be suggesting that I take Dr.

Myers to the woodshed. Point of Order Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (River Heights) : Mr. Speaker, we have had enough of the use of that phrase in this House to last in peipe tuity. You have it within your power to make that expression unparliamentary, and I would ask you to do so. Mr . Speaker: Order, ple ase. On the point of order raised by the honourable member for River Heights, it is indeed unfortunate that the word as clea rly enunciated by the Minister of Health, referenced by the honourable member for River Heights , does not show up in Beauchesne 's under unparliamentary language .

But, again, I would remind all honourable members to pick and choose your wor� very carefully . ••• Mr . McCrae: In any event, Mr. Speaker, when I said what I said, the Leader of the Liberal Party said: Yes, I do suggest to take Dr. Myers to the woodshed. Point of Order Mr . Edwards: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, I have asked this minister to call Dr. Myers and tell him that he is wrong that we must move to a two-tier- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member does not have a point of order. That is clearly a dispute over the fa cts. There is no point of order. ••• Mr .

Speaker: Now, the honourable Minister of Health, to finish with his response. • (10 30) Mr. McCrae : Mr. Speaker, the honourable member may know Dr. Myers, but if I were to do as the honourable Leader of the Liberal Party is suggesting I do, use my muscle as a Minister of Health to go and tell Dr. Myers what he should or should not be saying in this free country of ours, I can tell you, Dr. Myers would waste no time dispatching me on the point, and I would respect him for it if I ever tried to do such a thing. Dr. Myers is entitled to his opinion.

I disa gree with the opinion as expressed by the Leader of the Liberal Party today. I do not know how much more public I can be, Mr. Speaker, than to- Mr . Speaker: Order, please . Community- Based Policing Government Strategy Mr . Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns) : Mr. Speaker, this week, Mr. Chris Braiden, the former supe rintendent of the Edmonton Police Service and the acknowledged expert on community-based policing in North America was in the city to advise the Winnipeg Police Serv ices. Mr.

Braiden makes the point that policing is off the rails here and that we must get officers out of their cars and into the community and working with neighbourhoods . My question for the Minister of Justice is, would she explain why her department does not have a single program in place to ensure that Manitoba police forces can be transformed to community based policing? Bon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General) : Mr. Spea ker, as the mem ber know s and this government has demonstrated, we have a very strong commitment to community consultation, to working with communities .

The member, I am sure, knows that the RCMP has a system in place in which they do woik with communities, where communities have

3698 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 17, 1994 the opportunity to detennine what kind of services they would like to have , what would best serve their community. I meet both with the chief of the Winn ipeg Police and also the bead of the RCMP and make sure that I am aware of issues of concern. However, the departments themse lves have to look at an intemal management strategy and a direction that they wish to go in and bow they will actually achieve it. Mr.

Mackintosh: Would the Minister of Justice explain bow a move to community-based policing can be listed in her Detailed Estimates as an objective of her department when there is no action plan, there is no program in place , either taken or planned? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Speaker, the member obviously paid no attention in the course of Estimates.

I wonder where be was in the comse of Estimates in terms of his thinking, because be did not bear any of the discussion when we discussed the Law Enforcement line, when we discussed the RCMP's work with the community, with the community groups that they report to and that they continually work with. It is through those groups -and there were examples raised in the p rocess of Estimates-that citizens bad the opportunity to speak about the type of policing they want. So that certainly is in place. The member obviously just miss ed it, like be misses a lot of other things. Mr. Mackintosh : Mr.

Speaker, I resent those personal rem arks , and I think we should talk about the issues. I reviewed Hansard this morning and the Estimates and, given that the minister said that all she was doing for community-based policing was encoura ging the RCMP to work with community advisory groups, I ask the minister, will she assure Winnipeggers that she will now meet with the chief of the Winnipe g Police Services and help him and help the department so we can achieve community-based policing in Wmnipeg, we can get officers continu ously visibly deployed in communities? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Speaker, I am glad the member made reference to the earlier discussion. It seems that one question says it did not happen; another question says it did. So, in fact, we did discuss community-based policing. We did discuss the RCMP's role in this area in terms of the Gty of Winnipeg Police. As the member kno ws, they also report very directly to the Winnipeg Gty Council and that they are, in fact, employees of the City of Wmnipeg.

I have the opportunity to meet with them to discuss iss ues of importance , but this is also an area of their own inte mal management, and they have to work at it also with their own employers. Blood Transfusi on Recipie nts Communication Policy Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kll donan) : Mr. Speake r, today we learn at the Krever inquiry that Dr. John Guilfoyle indicated be attempted to contact all individuals who bad received blood transfusions in Manitoba between 1985 and the present.

Can the minister advise the House what the departmental strategy bas been and is with respect to notifying recipients of blood transfusions between '85 and the present? Bon. James McCrae (Mini ster of Health) : Mr. Speaker, I am just as uncomfortable as before in discussing matters that are presently before a commissi on of inquiry. The honourable member asks questions that flow from te stimony being given before a commission of inquiry.

I recall many times during the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry, the Hughes review , questions arising as a result of testimony given before those inquiries, and I tried very bard to stay away from getting involved in something that is presently before a commission of inquiry. Needless to say, I think the previous questions asked by the honourable member, are answered in a general way, as I have tried to answer them , to assure the honourable member and everyone else that as these allegations get made in front of a commission of inquiry, we certainly do look into them as they come up, but we try not to engage in

/ June 17, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 3699 a whole lot of comment about them, as they are properly before Mr. Justice Krever. Mr. Chomiak : Mr. Speaker, these are the minister's own officials, and these are health policies that apply today. My question again to the minister is, what steps bas the department taken to notify individuals who have received blood transfusions prior to 1985? Mr. McCrae: Mr. Speaker, I will get the detail for the honourable member and discuss it with the honourable member outside the realm of the Chamber, as these matters are presently before the Krever inquiry. Mr.

Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, maybe also, can the minister explain why Dr. John Guilfoyle who testified today was stonewalled by the department last year when be attempted to notify individuals about blood trans fusions, why the department stonewalled his attempt to notify the public? Mr. McCrae: As I said, Mr. Speaker, these questions are the subject of discussion bef ore the Krever inquiry. I do not mind having a private conversation with the honourable member about this, but I do not want to say anything that might jeopardize the work of the Krever inquiry.

That would be the inappropri ate thing to do, and I am a little bit surp rised that the honourable member, with his particular training, would raise the matter in the way be bas today. • (1 040) Training/Employment Creation Federal Di scnssi ons Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolsele y) : Mr. Speaker, yester day, Newf oundla nd and the federal government announced a strat egic initiative in education and job creatio n-- $4.4 milli on to assist students to atte nd universities and colleges and $3 million for jobs for recent graduates.

The needs in Newfoundland are obvious, but in Manitoba, our youth unemployment rates have at times climbed to over 25 percent, and in northern Manitoba, the unemployment rates are extremely high. I want to ask the Minister of Education and Training, what specific proposals have been made by the government of Manitoba to the fe deral government for post-sec ondary education and training for young Manitobans? Bon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training ): Mr. Speaker, first ly, I want to correct part of the record when the member talks about youth unemployment rates.

I believe that our youth unemployment rate in Manitoba for the last census is around 16.5 percent, one of the best in the country and dropping significantly from where it was several months ago. So Manitoba virtually leads the land with respect to the low ranking of the unemployment rate with respect to the youth category. We continue to work closely with the fe deral government. Just yesterday , I was involved in a signing with the fed eral governm ent with respect to the health care products industry and training associated with, again, that industry. We continue to try to work together to find those areas, Mr.

Speaker, where indeed there will be jobs upon further training opportunities, and we continue to contribute significant amounts of money under our budgetary responsibility. Unemployment Insurance Commissi on Training Freeze Ms. Jean Friesen (Wo lsele y): Mr.

Speaker, bas the minister then, since be bas been in conversation with the fe deral government, yet prepared a res ponse to the question I put to him at the beginning of the week, asking about the impact of the de facto freeze in unemployment insurance training monies in Manitoba, what the impact of that is on the community college enrollments for this fa ll, and what the impact of that is on the thousands of unemployed Manitobans who cannot access any training funds from the unemployment insurance funds? Bon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training) : Mr.

Speaker, the member is well aware, through the social safety net ref onn, that this is a broader issue. The member, if she was re ading the paper at all, would know that my colleague the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson) was meeting with other minist ers across the country with respect to the whole refonn

3700 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 17, 1994 process, and obviously some dimension of the time was directed to that point. S pecific to her question, we are still no further ahead with an understanding as to bow the federal gover nment is going to revamp this whole program. Labour Force Strategic Plan Development Ms.

Jean Friesen (Wolsel ey ): Will this minister make the commitment that he has refused to make for every single year that this govemment has been in office, and that is, to prepare a labour force strategic plan for Manitoba which will infonn the public disc ussi on, which will enable Manitobans to understand what opportunities can be made available to them and which will give some educational direction which is absolutely lacking in this government in its discussions with the federal govemm ent? Boo. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr.

Speaker, I categorically reject the comment and the assertion made by the member for W olseley. There is not a lack of direction as presented by this govemment. As I indicated to the member over and over and over again in Esti mates revi ew, the thrust is contained within the Framewo rk for Economic Growth. Those are the strategic areas of growth. We are trying to make our educational institutions understand that in greater measure, and with respe ct to setting forth a labour market development board, we have tried to do that, but that has not been as easy.

As a matter of fact, there has not been a province over the cowse of the last number of months that has been able to, itself, come around. So this whole process of trying to marry supply with demand within the labour market development area is certainly understood by this government, and I dare say with respect to the approach that we put forward through the FramewOik for Economic Growth, we have gone further than any other province in this country. Income Security Program Pending Bodlly lojury Claims Ms. Norma McCormick (Os borne) : My question is to the Minister of Family Servic es.

This week, I received a letter received by an income security recipient who was injured as a passenger in a motor vehicle accident. On May 30, she received a letter from Wmnipeg South Income Security office advising her that she was to provide detail on a pending bodily injury claim and that future benefits would be on hold until this inf onnation was provided. Is it consist ent with department policy to interrupt this family 's income awaiting the adjudication of a pending bodily injury claim? Bon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): I will take the detail of that question as notice and provide inform ation back to my honourable friend, but I would hope that if there are specif ic issues and there are people in Manitoba who are suff ering financially as a result of some decision that has been made, that this would be brought to my attention personally at the very earliest opportunity, so I could look into and investigate that circumstance and ensure that Manitobans are being treated with compassion and with fairness, Mr. Speaker. Communication Policy Ms.

Norma McCormick (Osborne) : My supplementary is to the same minister. I am going to table this ter se, five-line fonn letter which shows no sympathy or understanding for this moth er's situa tion. This was the first communication from the Income Security office. It simply tells her she has no immediate income . What can be done to improve the way in which our bureaucracies and those who represent them communicate with Manitobans and ensure that at least there is some level of humanity and compassion? Bon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Again, I will say that if there is a Manitoban who is suffering financially as a result of any decision that has been made in the department, I would be very appreciative of that

June 17, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3701 inf onnation being bro ught to my attention at the very earliest convenience, so that I could look into the matter and try to resolve the problem. I will take the specifics of the individual case as notice and ask my department for some detail. Ms. McCormick: My final ques tion, Mr. Speaker: Will the minister work with Winnipeg South Income Secmity office to improve the tone of the communicatio n from Income Security, so that it shows greater respect for the program's clients? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Speaker, I have always said, and I think: the message that has gone out from me into the department is that we are there to serve the clients in the best and most respectful manner possible. I will take the letter that has been tabled back to the department and ask for some details around the circumstances. Economic Growth Provinci al Comparisons Mr. Leonard Eva ns (Brandon East) : Mr. Speaker, I have a q uestion for the Minister of Finance.

The curre nt economic indicators that we have from Statistics Canada show that Manitoba is pe rfonning below the national average in 10 out of 13 economic indicators-10 out of 13. Building permits have declined year after year for the past four years, and now this year, Mr. Speaker, there has been a decline in building permits of 21.6 percent. That is the first few months of this year. Not only that, we are rating 10 out of 10 in terms of what is happening in building permits. My question to the Minister of Finance is, why is Manitoba's economy perfonning so poorly? Bon.

Eric Stef ans on (Minister of Fi.nanc: e): Mr. Speaker, obviously, I disagree entirely with the

preamble of the member for Brandon East . I would be more than pleased at any point in time to sit down, when we have ample time, to debate the economic indicators in Manitoba to point to how well Manitoba is doing in a relative sense. The number of housing starts we have this year -we are certainly leading the nation in terms of hous ing starts in our province. In terms of investments in Manitoba over the last five years, we have been in the top half of Canada in three out of those five years. Our job creation performance last year was the third best in all of Canada. Since May of last year, Mr.

Speaker, there are 16,000 more full-time jobs in Manitoba today than there were back in May of last year. So there are many very positive economic indicators in our prov ince, and I would gladly discus s them at length with the member for Brandon East . Youth Unemployment Rate Provinci al Comparisons Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the minister specifically, why has the youth unemplo yment rate jumped so drastically in the first five m onths of this year?

Last year, the first five mont hs, the youth unem ployment rate was 14.9 percent This year, it is 18.5 percent As a matte r of fact, the Canadian average for youth in this period of time has actuall y declined a bit, and yet we have jumped up about three or four points. Why? Bon. Eric Stef anson (Minister of Finance) : Mr. Speaker, traditionally, our youth unemp loyment rate has been amongst the best of all provinces in Canada.

There are a series of initiatives that we have done to enhance emp loyment opportunities for youth, initiatives like the Green Team proposal, not only in rural Manitoba , but now reproduced here in Winnipeg which will employ hundreds of young people in the city of Winnipeg, many initiat ives in terms of dea ling with youth unem ployment. But one of the single most important things we can do for the youth of Manitoba is to create the right positive economic climate by holding taxes down, by reducing taxes to create long-term economic growth in Manitoba, and that is exa ctly what we are doing.

That is the best thing we can do for the youth in this provin ce. •

(1050) 3702 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 17, 1994 Mr. Leonard Evans : Mr. Speaker, I wish the Minister of Finance would read the statistics because last year, we were far better off than the national youth unem ployment rate. This year, we are about the same as the Canadian average; in fact- Mr. Speaker: Older, please. Question, please. Mr. Leonard Evans : Mr .

Speaker, my last question : How does the minister expect any significant economic growth if we do not have an increase in total capital investment which Statistics Canada is forecasti ng-no increase-and I note construction levels have dropped in the past three years. As I said, building permits are down 21.6 percent this year. He talks about housing starts. We are only a fraction of what we were five years ago. Why have we become a no-growth province? Mr. Stefans on: Mr.

Spe a ker, as usual, the member for Brandon East is very selective, and he is pointing to 1994 where capital investment is expected to be flat in Manitoba. If you look over the last five years in Manitoba, we have led the nation in three of those five years. Last year, 1993, the highest capital investment growth in all of Canada in manufa cturing investment was right here in the province of Manitoba. So, again, he did not raise capital investment last year. He did not raise capital investment the year before.

He raises it now when it is flat, but the figures he is quoting from 4o not include the infrastru cture program that we were one of the first provinces in all of Canada to get off the mark on, and those numbers do not include the $24 million that we are investing directly in the infrastructure program here in Manitoba. So I suggest that that number will be higher than zero growth in 1994. Mr. Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. Speaker 's Ruling Matter of Privileg�Minister 's Comments Mr. Speaker: Older, please. I have a ruling for the House.

I am ruling on the matter of priv ilege raised by the honourable member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli) on June 15. In raising the matter, the member alleged that in the Committee of Supply on Monday, June 13, the Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Orclwd) made comments to her, including the phrases, and I quote, "you need a slap" and also quote "you need to go to the woodshed" This is a serious alleg ation which has affected the House and has generated a great deal of media attention.

As I ruled on a somewhat related incident on June 2, 1989, because the matter arose in a committee, the correct procedure for the member would have been to raise her concerns in the Committee of Supply. My ruling was based on Beauc hesne Citat ion 10 7, which re ads that "breaches of privilege in commit tee may be dealt with only by the House itself on report from the committee." Also, Beauchesne Cit ation 760.(3) clearly states that the Speaker cannot exercise procedural control over committees. Therefore, I am ruling that this matter is out of order as a matter of privilege.

The honourable member may, however, wish to raise the matter in the Committee of Supply and the commit tee could decide whether or not to report it to the House. NONPOL�CALSTATEMENT Winnipeg General Strike Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, in the early hours of June 17, 1919, under the cover of da rkness, 10 men were arrested for their involvement in the Wmnipeg General Strike.

The stage had been set shortly before when, with undue and very unusual haste, the federal government amended the Immigration Act. In less than one hour, an amendment was rushed through three readings, Senate app roval and Royal Assent. 1be amendment permitted the deportation, as an undesirable, any immigrant, British or foreign born, regardless of the length of time he or she had lived in Canada, by the Immigrati on department and without a trial by jury.

June 17, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3703 Another amendment to the Criminal Code permitted a person to be arrested on a suspicion and guilty until he or she could establish his or her innocence, a complete reversal of British tradition. Those arrested included R.B. Russell, John Queen, William Ivens, George Armstrong, A.A. Heaps, R.E. Bray and four so-called aliens who had nothing to do with the strike leadership.

The purpose of the arr est was to settle the strike in favour of the employers or crush it by force, but being arrested had a profound effect on the individuals concerned, on their future, the course of politics in Manitoba and on organized labour. As J.S. Woodsworth, who was arrested on June 23, said, when the Meighen government arrested me, it nominated me to Ottawa. In the next provincial election in 1920, Fred Dixon, George Armstrong, John Queen and William Ivens were ele cted to the Manitoba Legislature, three of whom were still in jail.

These Labour Party representatives were four out of a possible 10 MLAs in Wmnipeg and received 42.5 percent of the votes cast . What began as a strike for collective bargaining, better wages and safer working conditions was propelled into a determination by the working class to supp ort its own representatives who could give voice at Winnipeg City Council, this Legislature, and the federal Parliament for the rights of all working people. �ember's Statement Bon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Energy and �): Mr. Speaker, may I make a statement to the House, with leave? �r.

Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] �r. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, on occasions, sta teme nt s have been made by honourable members in this House to which objection has been raised. These issues have been resolved by a ruling of the Chair, but in most cases by a simple clarification or withdrawal and an apology where appropriate. �r. Speaker: Order, please. Let us get some cl arification here. I asked for leav e for the honourable minister to make a nonpolit ical statement. �. Orchard: I just said a statement. �. Speaker: Yes, I understand that now.

Are we going to grant the honourable minister leave? Apparently he wants to make a statement to the House. [a greed] �.Orchard: Mr. Speaker, I will commence from the beginning. �-Speaker: Please. �r. Orchard: On occasions, statements have been made by honourable members in this House to which objections have been raised. These issues have been resolved by a ruling of the Chair, but in most cases by a simple clarification or withdrawal and an apology where appropriate. I have withdrawn statements that I have made both inside and outside the House and made specific apologies to any individual personally offended.

The member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli) raised a matter of privilege, which is her right, alleging statements were made by me in committee which the honourable member found offensive. I have acknowledged what I said to the member, and my statement had no connotation other than that intended by the author of that statement, the Leader of the Official Oppos ition (Mr. Doer), who has often used the phrase, taken to the woodshed.

Now, if that often-used phrase has offended the member for Radission, then I apologize to her for any offence taken, since no offence was meant. 1be member for Radisson further alleged that I said, quote, unquote, she needed a slap, which I did not say. If such language was used as alleged, the matter should have been raised immediat ely, yet was not. In fact, the matter was not raised the next day but rather the following day, Wednesday. The MLA for Radisson made her accusations with a full knowledge that neither Hansard nor the tape had any such statements recorded.

I suggest the member for Radisson raised the matter of

3704 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 17, 1994 privilege with the expectation that Mr. Speaker 's ruling would not sustain her motion since that was the advice given to her at her caucus meeting on Tuesday. I further suggest that the member for Radisson made the allegations with the full knowledge of bow it would be used by the media. In that regani, I suggest the member abused her privi lege of the House and indeed mine . For many yeus women have served this House with distinction, includ ing the former member for your constituency, who also was the Speaker of this House.

There are more women elected today because their predecessors have earned through achievement the respect of the people of Manitoba. They gained tha t respect th rough th eir perform ance and their strength of belief, which proved them to be equals to all ho nourable members. They did not achieve that respect on the sole basis of gender, Sir. Thank you. Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition Bouse Leader) : Mr. Speaker, when we gave leave for the member to make a statement, we did not anticipate that it would be in many ways a continuation of argument on a matt er of privi lege that was raised.

Your ruling, Mr. Speaker, indicated that the matter should be raised in the committee, but I want to express concern, that I believe that many of the comm ents made by the minister are out of order, because it is reviving a matter on which you made a ruling in terms of it being raised in this House, in terms of proced�, which may still be raised in the commi ttee.

Quite frankly, I am disappointed that after giving the leave for what we thought might be a statement of clarification, that we are once again engaging in deba te on a matter of privi lege, and I would therefore indicate that we feel it very unfo rtunate the minister used the leave that we granted to the minister -it was a common courtesy-to again raise the matter, Mr. Speaker, which you have dealt with in the procedural matter, which may still be before this House. So we want to place that clearly on the record. • (1 100) Mr. Speaker : Order, please.

I have to rule on whether or not the honourable member did have a point of order, and I am having great diffi culty at this time because , as the member for Thompson clearly indicates, and I will use his terminology, an abuse of-the member bas granted the right or the privilege to the Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Orchard) to make a statement to the House which, sir, does not breach any of our rules in our rule book.

Therefore, the honourable member, I guess, does not have a point of order, because the minister did not breach any of the rules, but I do note that the comments made by the honourable minister are such that -I caution all members, because it is a privilege granted by the House, and I am sure the minister is quite aware of that. We bad gone through a scenario here years back where a particular member bad been denied leave for many, many days. So I just caution all honourable members when you ask for leave to make a statement, the statement that you make is a privilege granted by this House.

Therefore, I guess, on the point of order raised by t he honou rable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), he does not have a point of order . Point of Order Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson) : I really want to raise a point of order, Mr. Speaker, to ask that you explore the options with respect to the minister imputing motives with respect to the matter of priv ilege that I raised. I want to respect your ruling. I did not pre judge your ruling, and I think that the ruling indicates that I still have the option of going to the Committee of Supply, an option that I will consider. Thank you. Mr.

Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Radisson, I will take this opportunity to take this matter under advisement. I will peruse Hansard as to exactly what was said by the honourable Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Orchard), and I will come back to the House with a ruling on that matte r.

June 17, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3705 ORDERS OF THE DAY House Business Bon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, House leaders have bad a number of discussions with respect to certain adjusunents to our schedu le for next week. First of all, I would like to ann ounce that the Public Accounts committee will sit on Monday, June 20, at 10 a.m., to continue consid eration of the report of the Provincial Auditor and related documents. Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the government House leader for that infonnati on. Mr. Ernst: Mr.

Speaker, there is general agreeme nt, and I wonder if you would see k unanimous consent to set aside the regula r business of the House on Monday, June 20, in the afternoon in order to con sider Motions of Condolence . Mr. Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House to allow the Chamber to-1 will use the te rmi nol og y-deba te condole nce mot ions Monday afternoon? Is there agreem ent that we will do condolences Monday afternoon? [agreed] Mr. Ernst: Mr.

Speaker, then would you also seek unanimous consent of the House to set aside in the Chamber the Estimates of the Department of Justice for consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Highways and Transporta tion? Mr. Speaker: Is there leave of the House to set aside the Department of Justice and bring forward the Department of Highways and Transpo rtation? [a greed] Mr. Ernst: Mr.

Speaker, I also advise that the Committee of Supply will sit in two sections, if there is unanimous consent to have Commi ttee of Supply sit in two sections on Thursday morning, June 23, at 9 a.m. until 12 noon, to consid er matteiS of Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Mr. Speaker: Is there unanimous consent to sit on June 23 two sections of the Committee of Supply from 9 a.m. ti11 12? [agreed] Mr.

Ernst: With respect to Monday evening and the sitting of the Committee of Supply in the Chamber, it is anticipated that, in the Chamber, should the Dep artment of Highways Estimates be concluded either before or after ten o'clock, Mr. Speaker, that we would then resume the Estimates of the De partment of Justice either before or after ten 0, clock. Similarly, Mr. Speaker, in the order of Estimates consi deration in the Committee Room, as agreed to earlier, is first the Status of Women and then Natural Resources.

Should the Status of Women Estimates conclude either before or after 10 p.m., we would then start the Department of Natural Reso urces . Mr. Speaker : Is there leave now, whether the Department of Highways and Transporta tion ends here in the Chamber either prior to 10 or after 10, to continue on discussion on the Dep artment of Justice?

We will clarify that one first. [agreed] In Room 255 in committee, I undeiStand we will be doing the Status of Women and if that department would conclude either prior to 10 or afte r 10 that we would resu me with the Department of Natural Resources. [a greed] Now we will get back to OrdeiS of the Day. Mr. Ernst : In that case, Mr. Speaker, would you call De bate on Second Readings in the order that they are listed in the Order Paper. DEBATE ON SECOND READIN GS Bill 3-Tbe Cancer Treatment and Research Foundation Amendment Act Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Health (Mr.

McCrae), Bill 3, The Cancer Treatment and Research Foundation Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur la Fondation de traitement du cance r et de recherche en can�rologie ). Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson) : Mr. Speaker, we have perused this bil l, and we are prepared to pass it through to committee. Mr. Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? The question before the House is second- Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster) : Mr. Speaker, I would move, seconded by the member for St. Boniface (Mr. Gau dry), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to.

3706 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 17, 1994 Bill 4-1be Energy and Consequential Amendments Act Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of :Energy and Mines (Mr. Orchard), Bill 4, The Energy and Consequential Amendments Act;

Loi sur 1 ·�rgie et app ortant des modifications correlatives, standing in the name of the honourable member for Tran scona (Mr. Reid). An Honourable Member: Stand. Mr. Speaker : Is there leave that this matter remain standing? [a greed] Bill 5-1be Highway Traffic Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the hon ourable Ministe r of Highways and Transportation (Mr.

Findlay), Bill S, The Highway Tr affic Amendment and Conseq uential Amendments Act; Loi modifiant le Code de Ia route et apportant des modifications correlatives , standing in the name of the honourable member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar). An Honourable Member: Stand. • (1 110) Mr. Speaker: Is there leave? [a greed] Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (IDkster) : Mr. Speaker, it is actually with ple asure that I could stand here today and speak on Bill S. Bill S, we would argue, is a bill that is proba bly long ovemue.

There are a number of changes that we have bee n wanting to see brought to MPIC over the last number of years, and this particular bill does address one of those changes.

That, of coUISe, is something which a former colleague of mine , cunen t City Councillor John Angus, as I can recall , sitting at our caucus table talking about the need to have those time payments so that individuals would not necessarily have to pay at one time in the year, thereby taking so much out of the disposal income of the citizenry at one point in time of the year, which would have a very negative impact on all the different other sectors that are out there. So I recall quite clearly some of the arguments that were being made forwam from our then-critic Mr.

Angus talking about why we would benefit consum er-wise, how the diff erent industries, in particular the retail industry, would be able to benefit. I know, Mr. Speaker, working somewhat in the retail sector a number of years back that when Autopac came around what would happen is we knew that was likely going to be the month in which we would do inventory, or plan on taking some inventory, because there is a noticeable decrease in consumer spending at the different retail sectors.

This is the primary reason why the Liberal Party, at that time and since then, has continuously fou ght to try to get the governm ent to acknowledge the need to have insurance renewal periods, something as I say that the caucus has been demanding for years, and we are quite pleased. We know that even I believe Autopac or MPIC in itself has been requesting a change of this nature. So it is a very positive thing.

I also understand that there are some other changes to the legislation that allows for a transfer of owne rship d ocum ent which would be provided for potential purchasers of vehicl es, and this will better the as suran ce of the credibili ty of the seller and the accura cy of the odom eter. Again, I have some first-hand experiences in terms of the issue of the rigging of odometers, not in a negative sense, of course, my first-hand experience.

I also had worked in an occupation in which it was brought to our atte ntion on numerous occasions in terms of some of the problems of those unethical sales people or backyam garage men. People were actually changing back the odometer in hopes that by doing this you are better able to get a price that is maybe inflated over what the car actually is worth because, in fact, Mr. Speaker, the car has a lot more mileage on it than the odom eter was showing.

So anything that moves in the direction of trying to protect the consumer, once again, in an area that comes up time in and time and time again, because this is not something in which you can just say, well, consu mer be wa re. Then it is the responsibility of the consum er to watch out for

June 17, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3707 because, because, quite frank ly, the average consum er does not have the expertise to be able to tell if in fact an odometer has been tampered with or changed, as some cases in the past you have seen a straight transfer from one vehicle to the next vehicle. Just a part replacement, but the impact of that part repl acem ent would enhance the value of that vehicle by showing a reduction of thousands of miles when it is not appro priate. For the average consumer, they would never know this.

You do not go behind the dashboard to see if an odometer has been tampered with. In some cases, when they have the odometers rolled back, you just cann ot tell. (Mrs. Louise Dacq uay, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) If there is a better way in which vehicles of all makes can be tracked or better certifi cation being provided to e nsure that the tampering of odometers is, wherever possible , limi te d to a relatively small number of incidents, that would be a positive thing. We were quite glad to see that. Madam De puty Speaker, my intentions were not to speak at length on this bill. I am not the critic.

I believe the member for River Heights (Mrs. Carstairs) was also wanting to put some words on it, but I did want to comment specifically on this bil l primarily because it is a bil l, which, I believe personally, is something that is long overdue. I do even believe that the government in the past has talked about introducing this particular bil l, or a bill of this nature. Having heard the 'many diff erent arguments as to why a bill of this nature is warranted, I do not have any problem in terms of supporting the principle of the bill.

As for the actual details, I have not read the bill from cover to cover, I must admit; but I do believe that the principle of it is something that I personally can support. Thank you for the opportunity to be able to put those few words on the record. Madam Deputy Speaker: As previously agreed, this matter remains standing in the name of the honourable member for Selkirk (Mr. De war). Bill 7-1be Crown Lands Amend ment Act Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume debate on second reading of Bill 7 (The Cro wn Lands Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les terres domania les), on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Driedger), standing in the name of the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton). Is there leave to permit the bill to remain standing? [agreed] Bill 8-1be Fisheries Amendment Act Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume debate on sec ond rea ding of Bill 8 (The Fisheries Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia p&be ), on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Driedger), standing in the name of the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton). Is there leave to permit the bill to remain standing? [agreed] Bill tO-- The Wildlife Amendment Act Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume debate on secon d reading of Bill 10 (The Wildlife Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia conservation de Ia faune ), on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Dr iedger), stan ding in the name of the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton). Is there leave to permit the bill to remain standing? [a greed] Bill ll-The Provincial Auditor's Amendment Act Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume debate on sec ond reading of Bill 12 (The Pro vincial Auditor 's Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur le verificateur provincia l), on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr. Ernst), standing in the name of the honourable member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans). Is there leave to permit the bill to remain standing? [agreed]

3708 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 17, 1994 Bill 13-The Condominium Amendment Act Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume debate on second reading of Bill 13 (The Condominium Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les condomini ums), on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Consumer and Co1p0rate Affairs (Mr. Ernst), standing in the name of the honourable member for Burro ws (Mr. Martindale). An Honourable Member: Stand. Madam Deputy Speaker: Is there leave to pemrit tbe bill to remain standing? [agreed] Bill l4-'lbe Real Estate Brokers Amendment Act Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume debate on second reading ofBi ll 14 (The Real Estate Brokers Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les courtiers en immeuble s), on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr. Ernst), standing in the name of the honourable member for Burrows (Mr. Martindal e). An Honourable Member: Stand. Madam Deputy Speaker: Is there leave to pemrit the bill to remain standing? [agreed] Bill 15-The Law Society Amendment Act Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume debate on second reading of Bill 15 (The Law Societ y Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur Ia Loi Soci�t� du Barre au), on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vod rey), standing in the name of the honourable member for St Johns (Mr. Mackintosh). An Honourable Member: Stand. Madam Deputy Speaker: Is there leave to pennit tbe bill to remain standing? [agreed] Bill l�Tbe Provincial Court Amendment Act Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume debate on second reading of Bill 16 (The Provincial Court Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur la Cour provinciale ), on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey ), standing in tbe name of honourable member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) . An Honourable Member: Stand. Madam Deputy Speaker: Is there leave to pemrit tbe bill to remain standing? [agreed] Bill 17-'lbe City of Winnipeg Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume debate on second reading of Bill 17 (The Oty of Winnipeg Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la Ville de Winnipe g et apportant des modifica tions correlative s), on the pro posed motion of the honourable Minister of Urban Affairs (Mrs. Mcint osh), standing in the name of the honourable member for Burrows (Mr. Martindal e). An Honourable Member: Stand. Madam Deputy Speaker: Is there leave to pennit the bill to remain standing? [agreed] Bill l8- The Insurance Amendm ent Act Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume deb ate on se cond reading of Bill 18 (The Insurance Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les assur ance s), on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Consumer and Co1p0rate Affairs (Mr. Ernst), standing in the name of the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton). An Honourable Member: Stand. Madam Deputy Speaker: Is there leave to pennit tbe bill to remain standing? [agreed] • (1 120) Bill 19-Tbe Mental Health Amendment Act Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume debate on second reading of Bill 19 (The Mental Health Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur la sant� men tale ), on the prop osed motion of the honourable Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae), standing in the name of the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton). An Honourable Member: Stand . Madam Deputy Speaker: Is there leave to pennit tbe bill to remain standing? Leave?

June 17, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3709 Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows) : Madam Deputy Speaker, I rise to speak on Bill 19, The Mental Health Amendment Act, and I can say that I have read this entire bill. It is sort of typical of the legislation on the Order Paper for this session. It is two pages . I think everyone here acknowledges that all of the bills in this session, or almost all of them, are housekeeping bills, they are minor amendments. That is the main reason why we are going to have a short session this year.

We know that the government got its major piece of legislation and its controversial piece of legislation through in the last session. This session, for various reasons, the government wants to keep controversial things off the Order Paper, and they have done a very good job of that They have also kept the number of bills down to a mini mum. I am sure that took some doing in their caucus, but if that was their agenda, they seem to have succeeded. This bill has two main parts to it The first is to provide for a second opinion on a review board on someone who has been determined incompetent.

I think this is a reasonable amendment I think all of us are entitled to a second opinion. Certainly, when we go to a doctor, we frequently want to have a second opinion and, because of medicare, we are able to go to another doctor and get a second opinion- An Honourable Member: Right. When I go to a minister, I get a second opi nion. Mr. Martindale : As the honourable Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey) says, if you go to a minister -I think he meant a clergyperso n--and you do not like what you hear, you can go to another clergyperson and get a second opinion.

This reminds me- An Honourable Member: It is that final opinion I am worried about. Mr. Martindale: Well, we are getting into some interesting theological debate here now. I would like to spend 40 minutes discussing theology. An honourable member just said, it is the final opinion that is the probl em. I think he is referring to the final judgment, and all of us should be worried about that opinion. Yes, I agree. I do not often agree with this government, but I agree with that statement.

Getting back to Bill l9, I think that just as all of us agree that it is a reasonable thing that we have access to a second opinion with a medical doctor, I think it is reaso nable that psychiatric patients should be able to have acce ss to a se cond psychiatric opinion. I do not think that is an abuse of medicare . I think where the abuse comes in is people that visit 20 or 30 or 40 or 50 different medical doctors in a year, and I know that the Manitoba Medical Association and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) are working on that problem .

In fact, yesterday the gov ernm ent put out a press release on the Pharmacare Smart Card, which is going to cut down on abuse of individuals going to numerous doctors to get double prescriptions or even triple or quadruple prescriptions and have all of them filled. Because of the wonders of computer techno logy, this problem should be completely eliminated. In fact, it is really quite impressive when you read the government 's information about the amount of money that this will save.

I am just going by memory here , but I believe the figure was something like $50 million in the first five years, and that is a considerable saving to the taxpayers of Manitoba and to the public purse. It is because of this computerized system whereby, when people fill their prescriptions, the pharmacist can immediately check and see if people have got another prescription at another pharmacy .

The second area that it will save money is that the pharmacist will be able to check on whether this prescription will be in conflict with or have side effects, harmful side eff ects, because two or more medications are being used. The government also has pro jections on how many millions of dollars they can save by this, and we commend the government for this. This is something I think that all three parties were in agree ment , that we should go to this syst em. Of course , the biggest benefit is that seniors and other low-income peo ple will not have to apply for their rebate and wait until they get the rebate

3710 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 17, 1994 cheque in the mail. They will be immediately paying their deductible and then the amount over that, I think, in Manitoba 40 percent of the cost, is reimbursed and so people will not have to wait for that reimbursement. It is a big improvement. It is a good system and I think all three parties had been urging the governme nt and the gove rnme nt I think agreed-o bviously, they agree d. They changed the system to allow for this new Pharmacare Smart Card.

So the first part of this bill providing for a second opinion on a review board seems to be a reasonable change to The Mental Health Act. The second part provide s for confidentiality under the act, and I think all of us would agree that confidentiality is very important. I had a recent experience whereby someone in the c omm unity who worked at an institution fu nded by the Department of Family Services was discussing over coffee the names of clients. I was very upset by this.

I assume d that this employee was violating their oath of confidentiality and so I phoned the executive director of this organization and, basically , put in a complaint. The executive director treated this violation of confidentiality extremely seriously. In fact, the individual was called into the of fice and reprimanded and reminded that he or she could lose their job for viol ating this policy. In retrospect, I probably should have handled it a little different ly.

I should have confro nted the individual and pointed out that they were violating this confidentiality policy, because now the individual is very mad at me and so is the spouse. They live in my constituency, and I probably lost two votes . If they tell all their friends-however, I would be very swprised if the individual would tell anybody the details of what happe ned, because I think anyone in our society would know that the individual was wrong, that they were violating confiden tiality. I guess we learn from our mistak es. I think I learned from the way I handled it I could have handled it differently .

But I think the employee le arned that it was a serious breach of confiden tiality, and I am quite sure that it will not happen again. I find that being a United Church minister is actually quite helpful when it comes to confidentiality as a member of the Legislature because, from time to time, I talk to civil servants and I talk to people in the community and frequently they share inf ormation with me. They say, you know, please protect me as an individual. I do not want to be fi red by the gover nment for talking to a member of the opposition.

I assure them that I am trained , as a clergyperson, to keep confidence s, and I think people find that re assuri ng. People sh are information with me on an almost daily basis , and that is often the basis on which I bring questions to the House or bring up questions in Estimates. So it is very helpful to be in an occupation where people have the degree of trust in me as an individual. As one of the government ministers points out, there are two sides to every story. That is very ttue. That is one of the things that you learn as a critic in your first term.

So more and more often now I phone the director of a department, and Family Services is a big department, or I phone a deputy minister or assistant deputy minister and get the other side of the story . Frequently the two sides of the story are like night and day or black and white. Even my constituents, when they phone me, they tell me half the story. They do not tell me the whole story. So I phone the department, and I get the other half of the story . I am one of those individuals who prefers to do their research before I bring questions to Question Period and ask questions in Estimates.

An Honourable Member : And I suppose you are asking a lot less questions this term than the last two. • (1 130) Mr. Martindale: The member remarks that I am asking fe wer questions , but that is not the reason. The reason is that there have not been nearly as many cutbacks in the Department of Family Serv ices.

June 17, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3711 Last sess ion the governm ent gave me all kinds of questions as a result of their budgeta ry decis ions. 1bis year there have been relatively few decisions regarding cutbacks in funding in the Department of Family Services. So of course that means fewer questions. Not that there are not any. I mean, I have raised questions about the $300,000 taken out of the Child Day Care budget and the decrease in fo ster family rates, and the decrease in relatives rates, and there will be more questions. I have two or three that will get asked in the next week.

An Honourable Member: All of which have nothing to do with The Mental Health Act. Mr. Martindale: One of your colleagues got me sidetracked, Mr. Minister. Spea king of Bill 19 , The Mental Health Amendment Act, I have found it very helpful to have a friend who has had some mental health proble ms. I have great admiration for this individual and for her honesty and her courage . This individual admits that she has a problem and that she has received some counselling and, in spite of this, has overcome many obstacles. Curre ntly she is wOiking on a university degree.

One of the things that she did quite successfully was, she appealed a social assi stance decision. She went to the appeal board and she won. Not very many people win on a social assistan ce appe al. I asked the minister questions about this in Estimates this year, and I believe it is around 15 percent of all appellants win on appeal. I also asked how many appellants repr esented . by a lawyer win . I am just going by memory here so I could be wrong, but I think fewer people win on appeal with a lawyer than without a lawyer, which is rather inte resting.

I usually advise people to get a lawyer although you do not need one . This individual prepared her own case with a little advice from me and went and argued and won. I think that one of the reasons that she won was the subtle sort of bias of the appeal committee members. These are individuals who are chosen from the community. They are government or political appointments . I think they were rather surprised when this individual showed up and did not fit the typical stereotype of an individual on social assistance . She was a university student She was white. She was well educated. She was articulate.

She prepared her case well. She spoke well and clear ly, and I think that was probably the key reason why she won. I was not there , so I am not sure of all the dynamics. I do not remember the particulars of the appe al. It is possible that she had a good case before she even went, but that was the feeling that she got, that she got a lot more respect because she was an educated person.

I just wish that happened more often, because many, many of my constituents phone me with social assistance problems and, particularly where they have been cut off or there seems to be some glaring omission, I always encourage them to appeal the decision of the Income Security staff . Getting back to my friend with mental health problems, I think that she does some very good things. She talks about herself and her problems, and that is hel pful, because in the past we have tended to put mental health patients in the closet, so to speak.

There has been a very negative social stigma to people with mental health problems and that has not been hel pful. I think it is more helpful when we as individuals and we as a societ y acknowledge that many people in our society have mental health problems and we talk about it openly and we accept these individuals. In fact, I think acknowledging the problem is probably key to the acceptance in society and in our fam ilies and in our community, of these people .

Once we can get rid of the social stigma and we can accept these people , then I think the next step is unders tanding, and when we have more understanding, we are more likely to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem. I think we as individuals and as a society are part of the solution. We cann ot just rely on mental health prof essionals and on psychiatrists to solve an individual's problems. I think it involves all of us. This individual is like many other people. She reaches out for support and friendship and she does

3712 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 17, 1994 it by telephone , which I think is probably a little less threatening and easier than meeting friends and supporters on a face-to- face basis . I have a number of individuals who phone me from time to time, and I think I am part of their support netwodc. I listen patiently . There is not a lot that I can do other than listen, but I think that is helpful. I think that keeps these individuals on a steady course. There is a good program in the Department of Mental Health, and I have talked to the director of this program several times.

In fa ct, I have tried to recruit individuals for this program, because it is called the Proctor Program. What the department of mental health is doing is recru iting individuals in the community who are called proctors. They are assigned to an individual with mental health proble ms, some one who is living in the community. The proctor is paid for the time that they spend with the individual. The id ea is that instead of using only prof essionals to help individuals with mental health problems that nonprof essionals who are frie nds, who are both a proctor and a frie nd, can be helpful.

The director of the program says that it is very su ccessful. I met her at a banquet a week ago and I said when an individual has a proctor who is also a friend, does it keep them out of expensive psychiatric care? Does it help in keeping them out of being hospitalized or out of being instimtionalized? The director of the program said, yes, it is successful. It does mean that there are fewer admissions. This is a program that is expanding. They are recruiting more proctors, and J think that is a good thing. It means that individuals can continue to live in the community.

They can try to get their lives back in onter. They can go to school. They can find a job and establish some stability in their lives . The alternative is a much poorer alternati ve. I think all of us would agree that we need psy chiatric facilities in hospitals and psychiatric beds in the community and psychiatric institutions that when they are need ed, it is helpful, they must be there . If we can keep people out of those institutions and psychiatric beds, I think there are many, many advantages.

I think it is better for the individuals and it is, of course , less costly to government because there is a huge cost to staffing facilities , three shifts a day and hiring psychiatric nurses and hiring psychiatrists, beca use all of these professionals are very well paid Not to say that the proctors do not have to have standards and some training, my understanding is that the proctors must have a university degree and/or experience in the social services sector. So these individuals are scree ned and are chosen carefully.

Another reason for wanting to commend the Proctor Program is that in Manitoba and probably across Canada and the United States, we have seen a very large shift in probably the last 25 years whereby psyc hiatric patients in hospitals have been deinstitutionalized and re turned to the community. While it is good to see the number of people being reduced in psychiatric institutions and faci lities, there have been problems because while govermnents said we are going to put more resources into the community, we are going to fo llow these individuals and provide support in the community, that has not always happen ed.

So there is considerable evidence that one of the results is that many of these people end up on the stree ts. Amongst the numbers of the homeless in our society , the problem of homel essne ss is a very big problem , even in Canada, and particularly in our major cities. I am not sure of the extent of the problem in Wmnipeg, but I think the last figure I heard was something like 15 0,000 homeless people in Canada. If that is true, that is a huge figure. Sounds a little high to me, but if it is true, it is a very, very large figure. (Mr.

Marcel Laure ndeau, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) • (1 140) When people have both psychiatric problems and they are homel ess, there are many, many proble ms for those individuals and for our socie ty. It is very difficult if an individual is homeless and they are on medication for them to take the medication regular ly . If they do not take the medication regula rl y, then that causes problems for these individuals . It is very hard to have any sense of stability or any kind of hope if one is

June 17, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3713 homele ss. 1bis is a problem that we as a society should be doing a lot more about. Unfortunat ely , we have two views or two models in our society of what to do about the homeless. One model is to warehouse these individ uals. Bas ically that is the model of the Salvation Army and other organizations that put up shelters , frequently subsidized by provincial and federal governme nts. Individuals can stay for one or two or three days, whatever the policy is, and then they are out on the street.

They have to spend time out of the fa cility before they get back in again. It does not do anything for the problem of homele ssness. It only provides a roof over their head and a temporary shelter. But there is another model. I have been involved with people supporting the alternative model, who are part of an organization called the Urban Core Support Netwmk. They have been wmking with psychiatric patients and others who are homeless on the model of building peDDanent housing for homeless people. There are many success stories in this regard.

For example , the Fred Victor Missi on funded by the United Church in downtown Toronto, which for many years was based on the warehouse or shelter model, was transformed into peDDanent housing. The success stories here are quite interesting and wonderful to hear. Basically it is based on an empoweDDent model whereby the homeless people themselves are involved right from the beginning in planning and designing the permanent housing and then occupying it. Some of them have also gained employment in terms of being managers or security guards or maintenance staff . I have heard some of these stories.

One of the more interesting ones told by Reverend Paul Webb is about an individual who was a client at Fred Victor Mission, a homeless person, had lived there for a long time. No one had ever heard this individual speak. Then they st arted having meetings with the homeless people to plan their peDDanent shelter. 1bis individual started to speak at meetings and started to speak more and more. He came out of his shell. Once it was built, he became the person who ran the laundry facility . That is one small example of the transform ation that occurred in an individual.

In Toronto there are two or three organizations that have built permanent housing for the homel ess. In Vancouver there is Seven Sisters Housing Co-op which houses people who used to live in hotels and rooming houses, I believe, on the downtown east side. One of the examples that was used whenever I went to these meetings of the Urban Core Support Network in Toronto was Jack's Place on Main Street in Winnipeg. People were constantly saying, well, CMHC funded Jack's Place in Winnipe g; why do they not fund similar places in other cities?

My understanding is that Jack's Place , when it opened, was made available for people who were living in hotels and rooming houses on Main Street in Winnipeg. I have toured the facilit y, and it seems to work well. The problem is that the room s are very small because it was a small hotel that was converted to Jack's Place. So consequently they have had a problem with vacancies. But it is int eresting, Mr. Acting Speaker, to look at the attitude of the people who work in these organizations.

For example , there was an incident involving an individual who took a hostage at the Salvation Army, I believe at the Booth Centre, within the past week. I have been to the Booth Centre, and I know that when you go into the lobby , the staff person is behind plexigl ass, or whatever it is, and they press a button to open the door. There is a lot of security there already. Some of it is understandable, because you have to protect your st aff, and I guess this incident showed that. At Jack's Place-! have met the manager at Jack's Place.

She used to come occasionally to the North Winnipeg Co-operative Community Council for Seniors . She works in an office on the main floor at the front of Jack's Place , you know, 10 feet from the sidewalk on Main Street, and works all day with her door unlocked. So people said, well, what happe ns if there is a fight? She said, well, occasionally a fight breaks out, and I just go out and lock the door.

3714 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 17, 1994 Now I see they have got wrought iron gates. I guess that they close at night, in front of the fa cility, but I think the attitude is quite significant, that people who work with the poor, who are empathetic, are n ot afraid of them . Maybe they are willing to take more risks . I do not know. That was our attitude when I was at the North End Community Ministry. We did have a security policy for the staff, but when there were two or more staff there, the door was always open.

We made it a place that was hospitable even for people that were inebriated or high on snif f. We took certain precautions, but they wer e always welcome. One of these individuals is one of my constituents now and lives in the north end. Just the other day, be was walking down our back lane. He does this every day. He opens the garbage containers and takes out plastic bags, and be goes to a store on Salter Street and buys sniff products. I happened to be talking to one of my neighbours , and I said bello to him. This individual bas a great sense of humour.

He went back to the garbage bin and opened the lid and looked in, and was looking for me in the garbage bin. She said, do you know him? Because I called him by name. I said, yes, I have known him for about 10 years. He is a sniffer and this is what be is doing and this is where be is going. I have never been afraid of this individual. So I think attitude is very important. I digress from Bill 19. I do have many articles here on bomeles sness , and I thank the staff of the Legi slative Library for digging up many, many articles on mental health problems.

Unf ortunately , I did not have time to read them before I gave my speech, so I am not going to be able to use many of the se, but the librarian's time was not entirely wasted, because I will put this in our file for other speakers on this bill. Since I did not have time to read all these very interesting articles on mental health care and mental health ref orm and the area that particularly interests me, and that is the problem of mental health patients and former mental health patients who are homele ss, I think with those remarks I will conclude now, Mr. Acting Speaker. Thank you. The Acting Speaker (Mr.

Laurendeau) : As previously agree d, this matter will remain standing in the name of the honou rable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) . Committee Changes Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli) : Mr. Act ing Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for St. Vital (Mrs. Rend er) , that the composition of the Sta nding Committee on Public Accounts be amended as follow s: the member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) for the member for Arthur-Virden (Mr. Downey); the member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer) for the member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Ros e). The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laurendeau) : Agree d? Agreed and so ordered.

Bill 2�Tbe Municipal Amendment Act The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laurendea u): On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach), Bill 20 (The Municipal Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les municipalites ), standing in the name of the honourable member for Interlake (Mr. Cli fEvans ). An Honourable Member: Stand. The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laurende au): Is there leave that this matter remain standing? [agreed] Bi11 21-Tbe Manitoba Medical Association Dues Act The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laurende au): On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae ), Bill 21 (The Manitoba Medical Ass ociation Dues Act;

Loi sur Ia cotisa tion de 1 'Ass ociation m�dicale du Manitoba), standing in the name of the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashto n). An Honourable Member: Stand. The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laurendeau) : Is there leave that this matter remain standin g? [agreed] Bill 23- The Manitoba Historical Society Property Act The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laurendeau) : On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of

June 17, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3715 Coosmner and Corporate Affairs (Mr. Ernst), Bill 23 (The Manitoba Historical Society Property Act;

Loi sur les biens de Ia Soci6t6 historique du Manitoba), standing in the name of the honourable member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux). An Honourable Member: Stand. The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laurendeau) : Is there leave that this matter remain standing? [agreed] Bill 24-The Waste Reduction and Prevention Amendment Act The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laurendea u): On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Fnvironment (Mr. Cummings), Bi11 24 (The Waste Reduction and Prevention Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia reduction du volume et de Ia production des d6chets ), standing in the name of the honourable member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux). An Honourable Member: Stand. The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laurendea u): Is there leave that this matter remain standing? [agreed] Is it the will of the House to call it 12:30? The hour now being 12:30 p.m., this House now stands adjoumed until 1:30 p.m., Monday, June 20.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday , June 17, 19 94 CONTENTS RO� PROCEEDINGS Unemployment Insurance Commission Friesen; MaDness 3699 Ministerial Statements and Labour Force Strategic Plan TabHng of Reports Friesen; Manness 3700 Manitoba Builder Bonds Series ll Income Security Program Stefanson 3691 L. Evans 3691 McConnick; Mitchelson 3700 Edwards 3691 Economic Growth Capital Program, Heal th L. Evans; Stef anson 3701 McCrae 3692 Youth Unemployment Rate In troduction of Bills L. Evans; Stefanson 3701 Bi11 26, Act to amend

An Act to Protect Speaker 's Ruling the Health of Non-Smokers

(2) Matter of Privile ge-Minister 's Comments McCrae 3692 Rocan 3702 Oral Questions Health Care System Nonpolitical Statement Doer; McCrae 3692 W"mnipeg General Strike AIDS Prevention Program Martindale 3702 Doer; McCrae 3693 Member 's Statement Labomtory and Imaging Services Matter of Privile ge-Minister 's Comments Chomiak; McCrae 3694 Orchard 3703 AIDS Prevention Programs Chomiak; McCrae 3695 ORDERS OF THE DAY Public Health Service s Chomiak; McCrae 3695 Debate on Second Readings Health Care System Bi11 3, Cancer Treatment and Research Edwards; McCrae 3695 Foundation Amendment Act Community-Based Policing Ashton 3705 Mackintosh; V odrey 3697 Bill 5, Highway Traffic Amendment and Blood Transfusion Recipients Comequential Amendments Act Chomiak; McCrae 3698 Lamoureux 3706 Training/Employment Creation Bi11 19, Mental Health Amendment Act Friesen; Manness 3699 Martindale 3709

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-5-50
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 5th hansardpdf 50.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	7517aa68bae3f6eb1b580e821cc692faebdf1aed

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