1989 Legislative Session: 3rd Session, 34th Parliament

HANSARD

The following electronic version is for informational purposes only.

The printed version remains the official version.

Official Report of

DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

(Hansard)

FRIDAY, JULY 7, 1989

Morning Sitting

[ Page

8289 ]

CONTENTS

Routine Proceedings

An Act to Ban the Commercial Use of Lie Detectors (Bill M220). Mr. Clark

Introduction and first reading –– 8289

Private Members' Statements

The AIDS epidemic. Mr. Perry –– 8289

Hon. Mr. Dueck

Destination tourism. Mr. Rabbitt –– 8291

Ms. Pullinger

Premium wine policy initiative. Mr. Serwa –– 8293

Mr. Clark

Hon. Mr. Savage

Labour and Consumer Services Statutes Amendment Act, 1989 (Bill 46).

Hon. L. Hanson

Introduction and first reading –– 8295

School Act (Bill 67). Committee stage. (Hon. Mr. Brummet) –– 8296

Ms. A. Hagen

Ms. Marzari

Mr. Cashore

Mr. Jones

Mr. Barnes

Third reading

Independent School Act (Bill 68). Committee stage, (Hon. Mr. Brummet) ––

Ms. A. Hagen

Third reading

The House met at 10:05 a.m.

Prayers.

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM :

I'm very pleased to have visiting with us friends from Santa Barbara,

California — they arrived aboard a cruise ship this morning — Mr.

and Mrs. Jesse and Patricia Nimmocks, their son and daughter-in-law,

Drs. Jimmy and Eileen Nimmocks, and Emily Ann Weimerskirch and Lou

Lander. They are spending a day in Victoria before proceeding to

Alaska, and I would ask the House to extend them a welcome.

Introduction of Bills

AN ACT TO BAN THE COMMERCIAL

USE OF LIE DETECTORS

Mr. Clark presented a bill intituled

An Act to Ban the Commercial Use of Lie Detectors.

MR. CLARK :

The primary purpose of this bill is to outlaw the use of lie detector

tests by businesses in the evaluation of their employees and in the

investigation of their conduct. In addition it prohibits the commercial

use of these devices for any purpose unrelated to the commission of an

offence with which a person has been charged. In other words, the

routine use of lie detector tests by ICBC or any other agency is banned

by this bill.

Tests like the polygraph are demeaning,

intimidating and, most importantly, fundamentally inaccurate. Even the

American Polygraph Association, the principal proponent of their use,

claims an accuracy rate of only 90 percent. Many other experts believe

they are only 65 percent to 75 percent accurate.

These

tests are, in fact, used currently by businesses in British Columbia.

The B.C. Civil Liberties Association informs me that they receive

complaints every couple of months or so. Most employees take the test

rather than lose their jobs. As a result of this economic pressure,

these tests can never be called voluntary.

Mr. Speaker, the polygraph is a crude, unsophisticated machine, essentially unchanged since the 1930s — an age, in my view, of naive faith in the infallibility of science and technology. They have no place in the 1980s.

The

use of lie-detector tests by employers is banned in Ontario; it is

restricted in Great Britain, and banned in the United States. It is

high time we banned them in British Columbia.

Bill M220 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders

of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

Orders of the Day

Private Members' Statements

THE AIDS EPIDEMIC

MR. PERRY :

The AIDS pandemic has now infected between five million and ten million

people worldwide. It poses a challenge more devastating, more complex

and more taxing of the human mind and spirit than any disease our

society has faced this century.

British Columbia is not

spared. With 591 cases of AIDS diagnosed through June 30, we have the

highest incidence in Canada and exceed that of any country in Europe.

Compounding this burden of suffering, the care of these people is

estimated by the Royal Society of Canada to cost British Columbians

about $50 million, while the indirect cost of their illness may total

$300 million.

Presently the virus is spreading into the

heterosexual population. In B.C. the number of females with frank AIDS

has doubled from seven to 16 in the last three months; yet the

diagnosis of AIDS is but the small apparent manifestation of the

looming tragedy. By May 31, 3,063 British Columbians have tested

positive for the human immunodeficiency virus, or HIV. Some are in our

prisons, where at least 19 seropositive inmates have been identified by

sporadic voluntary testing. Ominously, a recent survey of a Quebec

medium-security women's prison discovered the surprisingly high

prevalence of 6 percent.

Kids on our downtown streets are

also infected, including 17 of 594 tested in Vancouver, most notably

one 17-year-old and two 16-year-old girls. Prince Rupert recently has

experienced an epidemic of at least 15 cases of hepatitis B among its

100 intravenous drug abusers. Where goes blood-born hepatitis, AIDS

will co-exist or follow, as demonstrated by its explosive spread in

Edinburgh, Milan and Bangkok, where HIV seroprevalence in injection

drug users leapt from 1 percent to 43 percent in less than one year.

addition to our 3,063 known carriers, some 2,000 to 4,000 more British

Columbians, still untested and ignorant of their status, are thought to

carry the AIDS virus. Barring miraculous scientific discoveries in the

next few years, these 5,000 to 7,000 will sicken and may die, most of

them decades before their natural life span would have dictated. These

facts cry out for action. Yet here in this assembly we argue whether or

not to protect our population through the only means available — prevention.

What

is our record in this province? Let me briefly examine some of our

strengths and our weaknesses, and then in my final three minutes I

shall outline an integrated provincial strategy which could transform

us into a world leader in the fight against AIDS.

First, consider our strengths. B.C. has the first and strongest community-based AIDS association in Canada — AIDS Vancouver —

founded in 1983 at the outset of our epidemic. We benefit also from the

Persons with AIDS Coalition, McLaren House Society, DAWN House Society

and AIDS Vancouver

[ Page 8290 ]

Island.

Along with smaller and lesser-known groups throughout the province,

they have done an outstanding job, widely recognized in their

communities, to educate, to modify high-risk behaviour and to support

people incubating or afflicted with the disease.

Recently

the Downtown Eastside Youth Activities Society, supported by Vancouver

and its health department, pioneered an innovative project to exchange

sterile for contaminated needles and to supply disinfectant and condoms

to intravenous drug abusers, prostitutes and street people. This

program has exceeded beyond its organizers' wildest dreams, enrolling

1,620 in its first three months and achieving a 70 percent exchange

rate on thousands of sterile needles. It has distributed thousands of

condoms to the population at highest risk. Conceived and organized at

the community level, this program is fast becoming a model for Canada

and the world. One day, perhaps, it will be recognized, even in this

province, as exemplary.

Some other strengths. Our health

care professionals have devoted themselves selflessly to the care of

people with AIDS. St. Paul's Hospital, in particular, developed

innovative care protocols and educational programs to help staff cope

with an unprecedented challenge. The B.C. Centre for Disease Control

provided early leadership and laboratory services. Our scientists have

become world leaders in the epidemiology of HIV and are hard at work on

basic and clinical aspects of the disease. Our Red Cross moved swiftly

to prevent blood-product transmission of the virus, as soon as it was

technically feasible.

Individual school boards, such as

Qualicum and Coquitlam, have recognized that half of our high school

students are sexually active and therefore at risk, whether we like it

or not. By agreeing to install condom-vending machines in schools, they

have shown the political courage to provide their students not only

with education against AIDS but also the means for self-protection.

What,

Mr. Speaker, can we identify as our weaknesses? Most serious is the

vacuum of leadership from our Premier and our Minister of Health. Time

and again they have discouraged sensible initiatives from the

community, the health professions and even from the Ministry of Health.

Consider a few specifics. We have no program to survey HIV prevalence in prisons

nor to prevent transmission in this setting. Highly regarded community groups

and, latterly, the Vancouver needle exchange program are refused provincial

funding, although the federal and municipal governments and private foundations

recognize the value of their work. Chronic short-funding seriously impairs their

ability to coordinate volunteer services to people with AIDS who desperately

need the assistance they could help provide more efficiently and economically

than can our hospitals. Street kids and injection drug users who seek rehabilitation

currently have nowhere to go; there are no adequate treatment facilities. Home-care

services are nowhere near adequate for the established need. Patients are still

billed for 20 percent of the cost of zidovadine or AZT, an essential treatment

for AIDS.

[10:15]

Research spending by the B.C. government is pathetically stingy. It

amounts to less than 1 percent of recent AIDS research grants in

Canada. Our government refuses to publish the recommendations of its

Provincial Advisory Committee on AIDS, as if the public had something

to fear from the truth. Ultimately, we have seen government censorship

of its own AIDS video, a censorship which I hope to break today by

screening the banned AIDS video for members within these precincts.

Let

me turn now, Mr. Speaker, to an outline for a comprehensive and

integrated provincial strategy for AIDS. I can only mention briefly

some key elements. Number one, an ongoing coordinated educational

campaign.

MR. SPEAKER : Hon. member, I regret to inform you your time is up under the standing orders.

HON. MR. DUECK :

Mr. Speaker, to begin with, I would like to thank the member for giving

me his statement this morning, although I haven't had a chance to go

over it; I just received it. But I appreciate even the time that I had.

know that the AIDS epidemic, this fatal disease, has struck the world

with a vengeance. A lot of the information we received this morning we

know; we don't have to repeat it. It's fact and figures: we all know

that. Everyone in the province is more or less familiar with that. But

it is one thing to talk about what we know and give all kinds of

theories; it's another thing to do something about it. This government,

the Ministry of Health, and I as Minister of Health, have in fact

initiated many programs and done many things in the area of AIDS

prevention and education. That is my mandate, and I have taken it very

seriously.

For example, Queen's University did a national study — I've mentioned this before, but I want to put it on the record again —

and they found that British Columbia youth was the most educated, the

most informed of any youth in Canada. These things don't happen by

chance. It's not because we did nothing, as we hear from that side

again and again: that British Columbians somehow know all about AIDS

because they read the paper or go back east or to another province and

get that information. It is because this ministry has in fact

disseminated that information.

1 don't like to talk about

what we do in a way that may sound boastful, and I haven't done so;

I've given facts. I want you to know that last year I received a

national award from the Canadian Life and Health Insurance Association,

a plaque that said: "In recognition of your outstanding leadership in

the area of AIDS education." I would not have brought it up this

morning if it hadn't been for the other side: negative, negative,

negative, this government does nothing. Other people across Canada come

out here and say: "You're doing a terrific job with AIDS education, and

we want to recognize that."

[ Page

8291 ]

We have done many things in the area of AIDS, but not just in that

area; it's other diseases also. We seem to, as of late in the House,

zero in on one disease only and think that's the only thing the

Ministry of Health has to deal with. We're also dealing with the

diseases caused by the abuse of alcohol and the use of tobacco. For

example, between 35,000 and 50,000 people a year die in Canada from the

use of tobacco products. These are facts, but we zero in on one only.

We have to take the total, all the diseases, and that is my

responsibility, and I take this quite seriously. For him to say that

this Premier or this minister or this government does nothing in the

area of AIDS prevention or education is stupid.

If the

opposition were really concerned about this whole area of AIDS

education and this devastating fatal disease, they could assist — and we would take all the possible suggestions that they may have — rather

than using this particular deadly disease as a political football to

make some political headlines. I think that is really disgusting.

haven't got time to go over all these things that we have done in the

past, but, for example, the mailings that we did to the total province:

every household got a mailing. How about the "AIDS in the Workplace,"

that we mailed to all the larger corporations and to anyone who desired

that information? How about the video we had here some time ago, a

well-balanced video that showed not only a narrow view; it showed the

options.

MR. SPEAKER : I regret to inform the minister that under standing orders his time is up.

HON. MR. DUECK : I was just getting wound up Thank you.

MR. PERRY :

The record will show that I did not say the government has done

nothing, but I think its attitude is shown disturbingly by the comments

of the Minister of Forests (Hon. Mr. Parker), who shouted out to us,

"Sodomy forever; a new NDP theme song," in the midst of this debate.

Let

me turn again to an outline of a comprehensive and integrated

provincial strategy for AIDS. I can only mention briefly some key

elements.

(1) We need an ongoing coordinated educational

campaign. Although the government spent $4 million to implement family

life education in schools, it has left school districts to continue the

job alone. We must restrain government censorship and provide young

people with straightforward, explicit and widespread continuing

education. This must be accompanied by improved access to and

acceptance of condoms by sexually active young people. Government

should support local initiatives to install condom machines in high

schools. These points are totally consistent with the "Canada Youth and

AIDS Study" report to which the minister referred.

(2) We need funding for community groups. The provincial government should

provide generous funding for community groups with solid track records in AIDS

education and prevention and in service to the sick. Such expenditures are likely

to more than pay for themselves in cases of AIDS prevented and in reduction

of hospitalization.

(3) Funding for zidovadine and other drugs should be restored. We must

prepare to distribute aerosolized pentan-Lidine, which appears to

provide effective prophylaxis against PCP and reduces the length and

frequency of hospital stays for people with AIDS.

(4) We

need outreach programs for street youth and injection drug users. To

prevent an explosive epidemic of AIDS in this population, we

urgently — I repeat, urgently — require provincial funding

for integrated service centres in cities like Victoria, Vancouver and

Prince Rupert. They should provide needle exchange, bleach

distribution, condoms, access to STD treatment, counselling and

confidential HIV testing, detoxification and drug withdrawal programs,

and social and educational support services.

(5) We need

prevention in prisons. All persons incarcerated in B.C. should have

access to AIDS information, voluntary HIV testing and counselling under

absolute confidentiality, and to condoms and bleach for disinfection of

contaminated needles. Needle exchange programs within prisons should be

considered as warranted. We need programs for aboriginal people. The

province has begun this initiative, and it should be pursued vigorously.

(7) We need more funding for research. The AIDS epidemic hit B.C. at a time

when university funding had been drastically cut. This imposes

extraordinary burdens on our scientists and university teachers. We

need substantial new dedicated funding for faculty and research so that

B.C.'s pool of researchers can expand to optimize our scientific

response to AIDS.

(8) We need a UBC-St. Paul's Hospital

centre of excellence. These two institutions have earned an

international reputation for research and rare in AIDS. This has arisen

through cooperation with community groups, and thanks to federal

research funding. The province should recognize and foster this

achievement by establishing and funding immediately a centre for

excellence stressing a multidisciplinary approach.

MR. SPEAKER : I regret to inform the member that his time is up under the standing orders.

DESTINATION TOURISM

MR. RABBITT :

I wish to rise today in a positive way and talk about British

Columbia's fastest-growing industry: tourism. British Columbia has

captured the imagination of tourists throughout the world. The natural

beauty of this province is unequalled; it's our greatest asset. The

shrinking globe, though, has created both competition and

opportunities, and to take advantage of these opportunities, we're

going to have to see some change.

Today much of our

industry focuses only on the servicing of those who happen by. We've

been in the travel or highway service industry rather than the tourism

industry. There's a need for a concentrated

[ Page 8292 ]

effort

to capitalize on both our natural assets and our history.

Geographically we have many varying assets. We've got the prairie in

the northeast, the Rockies, the Cascades, the Coast Mountains. We've

got wet areas, dry areas, the inland plateaus. And we've got lakes,

streams and rivers.

It's only in the last few years that

we've made a concerted effort to sell British Columbia to the world

tourist. That effort was focused and centred in 1986, when British

Columbia hosted Expo. I think that has to be the greatest man-made

tourist destination spot that British Columbia has gotten into, and I

think it was recognized not only in British Columbia and Canada but

worldwide that this was a worldwide success as a destination spot. We

must duplicate this effort, but we must do so on a smaller scale and

many times over on a more diverse scale. This will create a challenge

to both government and industry. Government, wherever possible, must

give the tourism industry the tools and the infrastructure to compete

on a local, provincial, national and international level.

Let

me talk about my favourite subject, Yale-Lillooet, the most diverse

riding in British Columbia and probably one of the highest in potential

when it comes to the tourism industry. To accomplish these goals and

meet the challenge, we will need the cooperation of all levels of

government. We will need a wise development of our natural assets and

the proper use of our land base. We will have to adopt, enforce and

work with a multiple land use philosophy. Management for both the

short-term and the long-term are mandatory. We need to maintain a clean

environment — not only maintain it, but make it even cleaner than what exists today.

Most

of all, we have to use imagination. We need the support of the

financial industry, and we need a commitment from the tourism industry

as we've never seen it before. We've got the potential to make British

Columbia a leader, not just in Canada, not just in North America, but

throughout the world. We have to get out of the concession mentality

and get into the Expo mentality. We've done it once; we can do it again.

I'm

going to touch briefly on some of the places and projects in my riding

that have been successful in tourist destination in a small way. Many

of you are familiar with the Hells Gate air tram in the Fraser Canyon,

probably the first and the largest destination point established.

Literally millions of people have visited and gone right to the water's

edge to look at that facility. It's a natural wonder which has been

accessed by man, and people throughout the world have enjoyed that

spot. Tyax lodge in the Gold Bridge area, like Manning Park, is an area

where tourists from throughout the world enjoy both summer and winter

visits.

We have whitewater rafting and steelhead fishing on

the Thompson River. Whitewater rafting is not unique to British

Columbia, but we have made that particular

section of the river one of

the safest simply by having safe operators operate under safe rules

with good equipment. Our steelhead fishing is a natural resource which

people worldwide come to partake in. The Hat Creek Ranch was identified

as a particular area that the provincial government has partaken in,

and now visitors from throughout the world come and enjoy a part of our

history that dates back to the 1800s. It's been preserved so that

people in the modern day can see how people lived in yesteryear.

[10:30]

I see my time is drawing to a close, so I will complete my comments

in my rebuttal. I look forward now to the opposition's contribution.

MS. PULLINGER :

I'd like to concur with the member in saying that tourism can be a very

positive force in the economy in our province, and also that tourism is

indeed the fastest-growing industry in British Columbia. A few years

ago it was hardly recognized, but by the year 2000 tourism is expected

to pass all other industries and become the number one industry in

British Columbia. It's already the number one job creator.

The

member also points out that tourism in our province is based largely on

our natural beauty, our natural assets and our history, and he's quite

correct in saying so. We do have a very diverse and interesting

geography, and it's quite clear that preserving the cleanliness and the

integrity of our environment is paramount for the tourism industry,

There's no question about that. We need clean lakes, clean rivers,

clean streams. We cannot go on polluting through government’s failure

to adequately monitor industry in this province or to adequately

understand what is being created — and as we saw in the estimates

for the Minister of State for Vancouver Island (Hon. Mr. Huberts),

failure to coordinate and integrate our other industries with the

tourism industry. That's paramount.

The minister also

suggested that we need integrated land use. He's quite right; we do.

We've seen problems growing daily with the conflicts in land use in

this province. But I find it interesting that tourism is almost not

represented on most of the land use commissions. Tourism isn't included

in decisions on forestry, nor on mining and so on. We do have to look

after our environment; we have to keep it clean. Certainly everyone is

concerned about it and I would add to that, and I hope the minister

would press his own government to do the things they ought to be doing

to clean up our environment.

Expo did indeed bring a lot of

tourists to British Columbia. It was in many ways very successful. I'm

not convinced that what we need is a lot of little Expos all around

British Columbia, however. We do, as the minister says, need the tools

and the infrastructure to compete, but we also need to have a

coordinated ministry. We don't need to have a situation where people

have to go to one ministry for culture and recreation, another for

developing and another for marketing. We need coordination, and we need

that solid infrastructure for an inherently fragmented industry to

function well.

[ Page 8293 ]

The

member mentioned the history of the area. The most successful tourism

ventures occur in places like Chemainus, where they grow on their

history; they develop their own history. It's not an imposition, and I

don't object to them; I just don't think it should be our focus for

something like Expo, where you take something totally different and

separate and put it in a community. Rather it's better to develop

what's there, to let the community develop its own history in its own

geographic setting, with ministry support.

I agree with

many things that the member has said. We definitely need that

coordinated infrastructure and a clean environment. Above all we need

some leadership, not the fragmented approach that we've seen. We

certainly don't need things imposed; we need to work with what's there,

including the nine tourism zones, and to allow communities and the

existing base in tourism, which has been so successful, to become our

second largest industry largely by itself. We need to support that and

grow with it.

MR. RABBITT : I'm very pleased that the

second member for Nanaimo agrees with most of the points I made this

morning, because the approach we take as members here does reflect

within the industry. But just to put things in perspective, I did a

quick check on our performance in the three years from '72-75, and I

think our track record speaks very well. During our three years, the

commitment from government for a percentage of ministry expenditures

was 40 percent greater than the opposition's during that time.

Jumping

back to the high road for a minute, I would like to hit on some of the

potential that we do have in my riding. The Kettle Valley rail line,

which has been there since the turn of the century, is now being

abandoned as far as commercial traffic goes There is a fantastic

potential for the development of a summer rail line to take passengers

from around the world, from Spences Bridge right through to Penticton.

Another

potential is the re-establishment of the paddle-wheel on the Fraser

River. As many of you may know, the paddle-wheel used to be a regular

occurrence from Victoria right through to Spuzzum While I'm not

suggesting that we reinvent the wheel, I'm suggesting that we look

solidly at re-establishing routes along the Fraser where tourists can

again ride the paddle-wheel.

We can also look at the

history of my riding, which would recreate towns such as Granite City,

which was the third-largest city west of Chicago at one time during the

gold rush. We've got the mining city of Bralorne, still intact in many

respects, and the little fur-trading community of Tulameen, which later

became a mining community. We've got a lot of history that we, as

British Columbians, can work on to help develop a tourist industry

where people from around the world can come, visit, share and learn.

These

are just to name a few, and since my time is almost concluded, I wish

to thank the members for listening so intently and ask them to take the

message back to their riding that tourism is our number one growing

industry. It's the one, I think, that has the most potential in British

Columbia at the present time.

PREMIUM WINE POLICY INITIATIVE

MR. SERWA :

The Okanagan Valley is home to Premiers of the province for 30 years

and is the site where the present Premier met his wife. It's a special

place recognized as British Columbia's four-seasons playground. It is

particularly charming and beautiful in the fall, which is harvest time

in a bountiful land of plenty: all manner of fruits and vegetables

picked, dug up, packed, pickled, preserved, put away for winter use.

It's a beautiful time of fulfilment and satisfaction for people. In

early morning one can walk in a silence you can almost hear. There are

mixed smells and sights: faint wood smoke, overall a delicate spicy

fragrance of ripening apples. And you will see in our vineyards

clusters of blue and green grapes hanging heavily on the vine, grapes

marbled with dew and sparkling like diamonds in the early morning sun.

You were looking at the future.

Interjections.

MR. SERWA : I see that the members of the opposition are really not interested in agriculture, in spite of what they say.

Twenty-two

hundred acres of lower-quality grapes have been pulled out as a result

of the federal-provincial grape and wine adjustment package. A thousand

acres of high-quality grapes remain. They will form the nucleus of a

new premium wine industry. Those are the grapes you will be looking at

this fall.

I rise today to speak on the premium wine policy

initiative brought forward by the British Columbia Grape Marketing

Board. This issue is very important to my constituency of Okanagan

South, and indeed most important to the entire Okanagan Valley. I'm

very happy and proud to be associated with this dynamic, innovative

initiative that I believe will have positive effects on the wine

industry in British Columbia.

This new initiative

originated in the wake of the GATT ruling and the possible effects of

the free trade agreement. Overall, the greater threat was the GATT

ruling, which forced British Columbia wines to compete with European

wines, which have a high degree of subsidy in the European Community,

thus an attractive sale price to consumers.

The wine

industry in British Columbia was faced with the challenge of finding

new methods to compete successfully at the international level and

domestically in the face of international competition. Our wine

industry recognizes that it must adapt and take proactive measures to

meet this new challenge. As true entrepreneurs, they realize that a new

direction must be pursued. The grape and wine industry in our province

has found that premium grape and wine production is the direction to go

to ensure the

[ Page 8294 ]

growth and prosperity of their industry in our province.

The

cost structures and the ability of our industry to produce premium

grapes and fine wines are very similar to, and in some cases superior

to, other premium wine-producing regions in the world. The ability to

recognize the need to adapt and change in the face of new challenges

demonstrates our wine industry's history of entrepreneurship and

determination.

Leadership in the premium wine direction

started more than a decade ago. Grape-growers and commercial wineries

led the way. When the estate wineries entered the market in 1981, the

maximum annual volume of production allowed was 30,000 gallons These

wineries had to produce top-quality wines to survive with such

restrictions and limited production. Okanagan cottage and commercial

wineries up and down the valley have won many medals in international

wine festival competitions. Our wine industry has already proven it can

adapt to meet the changing preferences of consumers.

important initiative that their proposal contains is a marketing

promotion program development package. The industry has unanimously

agreed to new and relatively stringent wine quality standards for

British Columbia appellation wines, because the key to create a growing

and successful grape and wine industry in British Columbia is to

increase the quantity and quality of production of premium wines and to

profitably market these wines.

The wine industry has

already proposed a marketing plan to enhance and promote the industry's

new direction. The British Columbia Grape Marketing Board, in a report

entitled "The Required Elements of a British Columbia Premium Wine

Policy," concluded that any new premium wine policy should help the

establishment of new, small wineries specializing in premium wine

production. With the government sponsored removal of lower-quality

grape varieties and the advent of new vine quality standards, the

industry is in a strong position to promote its new direction.

One

of the main goals of the new B.C. premium wine policy is to maximize

the potential of the remaining premium grape acres. The policy must

also foster the replanting or the new plantings of premium grape

acreage.

The industry has proposed that the new policy

should encourage the development of wineries that produce wine made

from 100 percent British Columbia grapes. Another important

recommendation they brought forward is for the formation of a wine

commission to encourage and promote B.C. appellation wines. The Grape

Marketing Board believes that a British Columbia premium wine

commission should be established. A commission would coordinate the

development and expansion of the British Columbia premium wine industry

and would promote the marketing of British Columbia wines so that both

growers and wineries could achieve substantial sustained growth and

profit.

The main task of the wine commission would be to

develop and implement a master marketing plan for B.C. appellation

wines. It would provide the timely, cohesive and directed action so

necessary to guide and accelerate the development of such a new

industry. The wine commission would include members from the

grape-growing and wine-producing sectors and staff from the Ministry of

Agriculture and Fisheries.

[10:45]

Wine standards is another area that they have touched upon.

Well-designed wine standards are inherent to the establishment of

British Columbia as a legitimate premium wine region at home and

abroad. New British Columbia wine standards must mirror standards

adhered to in other parts of the world to ensure continued improvement

in British Columbia wine quality.

Mr. Speaker, I will complete this during my rebuttal time.

MR. CLARK :

Mr. Speaker, it's indeed most appropriate that I respond on behalf of

the New Democrats to this important topic. I and my colleagues in the

New Democrats are most impressed by the estate wine industry in British

Columbia.

It's indeed unfortunate — tragic, in fact —

that the free trade agreement puts this industry in great jeopardy.

It's tragic that this government was one of the strongest supporters of

free trade in the entire country. This Premier, this caucus and this

government supported something which undermined this important

industry. I wonder where the member for Okanagan South was during the

historic debate on free trade. Was he protecting the industry then?

Where was the member for Boundary-Similkameen and those members in the

Okanagan who supported an initiative which undermined a very vital

industry, among other industries, in that region? They were nowhere;

they were silent. They were silent in the face of the Premier and this

government's support for free trade and those initiatives.

It's

of course ironic, in addition, that this is a government that paid

grape growers to plant red grapes and then had to pay them to pull them

out. I wonder whether the aromatic smell of the grapes that the member

talked about was the grapes rotting on the vines because of inept

planning policies of this administration.

We believe that

there are real possibilities for the estate wine industry in British

Columbia, and we support the initiatives to move to a premium wine

commission. We support the attempts to find a high-quality wine market

niche in places like San Francisco in California. We think there are

possibilities. It's interesting that the government now is attempting

to find ways to help the industry, to find ways around the GATT ruling

and ways around the free trade agreement. By the way, while the GATT

rulings cause some concern, it is also true that the free trade

agreement makes GATT rulings binding, which they never were before, and

much different in magnitude.

[ Page 8295 ]

Other

provinces sought exemptions from the free trade agreement for their

important industries, but not this administration. This government

supported the Prime Minister and never once mentioned the grape

industry. David Peterson, the Premier of Ontario, fought for the grape

industry, but no one on that side of the House did, Mr. Speaker.

Interjection.

MR. CLARK :

The Premier is heckling. I remember when the Premier ran for the

Liberal Party leadership. I don't know what happened on the road to

Damascus, but he joined the Social Credit Party. He's now responsible

in many respects for the plight of the grape growers and the wine

industry.

We think there's real potential, in spite of

these initiatives, for the premium wine industry to find that niche in

the United States market in particular, and to upgrade the quality

of their wines. They've come a long way. As I said at the outset, we're

most impressed by their quality and by the type of individual involved

in that industry, and we support any attempts to move to continue the

viability of that industry, in spite of the fact that it's in great

jeopardy because of initiatives by the federal government, supported by

this administration.

HON. MR. SAVAGE : I'd like to

take the opportunity to advise the immediately preceding member, who

spoke about the grape and wine industry, that this province will

continue to lead — let me assure you — in grape production

and quality and premium wines. We are set on an objective. As the

member for Okanagan South stated very clearly, there are golden

opportunities in this industry.

Even though you criticized

free trade and GATT, you well know that this country lives by GATT

rules The industry was under attack from a GATT decision I can assure

you that, recognizing that as a province and as a country, we know we

had to make adjustments, and this government took the lead in making

those adjustments to encourage that the opportunity presented itself

for those grape producers to be able to produce a premium-quality 100

percent B.C.-content wine. We will continue toward that goal. I am

positive that the industry will thrive and B.C. will be recognized by

those standards.

MR. SERWA : I'd like to conclude my

presentation before I respond to the second member for Vancouver East,

with his sensitive appreciation of this.

Appellation

controls and labelling regulations are also very important factors

relating to the challenges facing the image of British Columbia wines.

The lack of that image can be attributed to the lack of virtually any

standards and appellations that had been previously applied. To attack

this problem, the wine industry has recommended the promotion of a new

image to show its commitment to quality. The end result will be

wholesalers, retailers and consumers who will be able to differentiate

between a true British Columbia wine and a wine produced, bottled and

blended in British Columbia from grapes or wine from other regions.

believe that this local initiative put forward by the British Columbia

Grape Marketing Board is a significant step towards greater prosperity

for the wine industry, It is a positive and confident step into our

future. The wine industry will be well positioned in today's

ever-increasing competitive market. I congratulate the industry for its

entrepreneurial spirit. Through the private enterprise system and faith

in the principles and success that guided our past, we can look forward

to a magnificent future in the wine industry.

The

sensitivity of the member for Vancouver East can probably be displayed

most effectively in his comments on the people engaged in agriculture

who have land removed from the agricultural land freeze. His statements

were that if there was any appreciation in the value of the land, the

appreciation should be taxed away fully at the time of the transaction.

It reflects on the commitment of the New Democratic Party towards

agriculture: tax everything away from them.

The member was

certainly off track and very poorly informed when he referred to the

free trade agreement as the driving force. In actual fact, the

international GATT agreement is driving us in this direction. The

provincial government, the Premier of British Columbia, the Minister of

Agriculture and the government itself are all to be heartily

congratulated for this, which to my knowledge is the only compensation

package arranged between the federal and provincial governments in

recognition of free trade concerns.

The wine industry has

been brought to its knees, but it has risen. It is facing the future in

a bright, objective and positive way. I believe that we have a strong

future, which will continue to grow in the Okanagan to raise the level

of tourism, and there are a variety of initiatives which will allow

this to happen.

MR. SPEAKER : I regret to inform the member that his time is up under the standing orders.

Introduction of Bills

LABOUR AND CONSUMER SERVICES

STATUTES AMENDMENT ACT, 1989

Hon. L. Hanson presented a message from His Honour the Administrator: a bill

intituled Labour and Consumer Services Statutes Amendment Act, 1989.

HON. L. HANSON :

Bill 46 amends four existing statutes. The Debt Collection Act is

amended to change the forum for appeal of directors' decisions.

Procedural amendments are made to the Human Rights Act to enable the

council to deal with the increased caseload.

Thirdly, three sections of the Liquor Control and Licensing Act are amended. These sections deal with

[ Page 8296 ]

brew

pubs and the Liquor Appeal Board's ability to set its procedures and

fines for the illegal sale of liquor. The Liquor Distribution Act is

amended to establish an appeal mechanism to deal with product listing

applications and give cabinet the authority to make appeal regulations.

Bill

46 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of

the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

Orders of the Day

SCHOOL ACT

(continued)

The House in Committee on Bill 67; Mr. Pelton in the chair.

Section 103 approved.

section 104.

MS. A. HAGEN :

I have a very concrete amendment: that this House delete subsection

(1)(a), which is easily labelled the "contracting-out clause." Let me

make some comments about our rationale for seeking the deletion of this

clause in our deliberations.

Let me preface my comment by a

quote from the royal commission about the state of change, if you like.

To a considerable extent, this very simple statement provides a kind of

feeling for this clause that I want to deal with in substance. It says:

"Changes" — and the commission is speaking of legislative changes —

resulted in confusion on the part of teachers and others during the

life of the commission." It notes: "Such changes, when introduced

without consultation and due regard for implementation, helped create

feelings of acrimony and distrust."

The past year has been

a time of incredible change, both proposed and in process, in the

educational system. It's been a period, too, when there has been

considerable optimism about transforming our educational system, as the

minister usually states, with an emphasis on individual learners. We

have applauded those initiatives and changes. This particular clause,

which is a very broad enabling clause, is premature in its presentation

at this time. It allows the board, subject again to this act, the

regulations and the orders of the minister, "to enter into an agreement

to purchase managerial or other services with respect to the operation

of schools...to purchase educational services that will be under the

general" — and I want to emphasize that — "supervision of an employee of the board who is a member of the college...."

[11:00]

There needs to be a much sturdier framework, based on consultation,

for this

section to move ahead at this time. This contracting-out

clause affects every aspect of the board's operation. It could affect

central board services, support services, custodial services,

secretarial services or any kind of student support services under the

next clause on support services for schools. And, of course, it could

affect education programs, under the reference to education services.

its present form I think it is seen as a totally unveiled, stark

statement of the government's bent to privatize the system. It is so

broadly enabling that it opens up the school system to a balkanization

without any framework. On behalf of the members of our side of the

House, I want to state categorically that we are not speaking about

breaking down the walls of the system or preventing that from

happening. What we are saying in opposing subsection (

a) is that the

framework which is provided for that contracting-out in this bill is

inadequate and unspecified.

It has the impact of affecting

every aspect, and not only of the people who work in the school

district under the school board; it has the potential to have an impact

on the economy of the communities in which the school district

operates. Let me just cite an example, Mr. Chairman. Take the issue of

custodial services. Under this clause, those services can be contracted

out. In many other jurisdictions, such services are now contracted out

under conditions that provide virtually no protection for workers in

terms of wages and benefits. That contracting-out can indeed have the

effect of creating job ghettos that provide low wages, no benefits and

poor working conditions for the people who are employed. It can also

affect the economies of the small communities of the province, where

these workers have had steady, reliable, good-paying jobs that were

sure to be there. They have been sure to be paid at a reasonable rate

and sure to have stability. That helps many of the small-town

communities during the time of the boom and bust of resource-industry

economic downturns. That's just one example of the kind of thing that

can come from this kind of broad clause.

The minister on

other occasions around the business of writing contracts has made

conditions that have affected the quality of jobs and the pay for jobs.

On the issue of educational services, there is still much that needs to

be done around the development of the curriculum process, a development

that needs to take place in a public forum. We have called for the

mandating of a curriculum advisory committee that would put into place

the framework I believe needs to be there before a clause like this

appears in a bill and is operationalized.

We need to have a

reasonable timetable. We need to have consultation and due regard for

implementation before we move in this direction. We need to give people

the time to work on the formative tasks with a commitment to our public

schools, to kids and to the teachers who work in the system.

The

last year has been a year of tremendous activity, tremendous working

together, tremendous change in the works. If you like, we've started

where the kids start, at kindergarten and in the primary grades. The

work there is going ahead with, I believe, the cooperation, enthusiasm

and commitment of all involved.

This clause, which opens up the whole system, is premature and ill defined. It is a vague contracting-

[ Page 8297 ]

out

clause which in the perspective of the government's privatization

initiative leaves everyone uncertain and unclear about how it will

work. It is a clause that right now is dysfunctional and contradictory

to the goal of stabilization, trust and gradual due process over the

ten years that the minister has himself stated he and the ministry will

need to fully implement the activities of the royal commission.

There

may indeed be a need for a clause that describes how the walls will go

down and how more diversity and choice will come into the system, but

we need to have time to look at that framework with the stakeholders.

We need to have time for that whole process to be seen to be In place

before we look at a blanket contracting-out clause such as this.

just

to conclude on this particular matter, Mr. Chairman, I want to note the

one other area where we do have contracting-out, if you like, where we

do have a privatized education system in the post-secondary sector. We

have a system that is one of the largest in Canada, where there are, on

the last record that I've seen, well over 400 private training

institutions that are totally unregulated. There is one person — one person —

in the Ministry of Advanced Education and Job Training who is

responsible for the licensing of those particular private institutions.

The

models that exist do not inspire trust. The government's agenda to

privatize does not inspire trust. We need to have trust and framework

for this clause to be in a bill at this time. I am urging the minister

to support the deletion of the clause until the work has been done that

will define, through due process, what this particular clause would

entail, and then to make sure that the legislation is clear about the

framework, the limits and the context, and bring it back when that work

has been done. Such an action would at this stage of the game be an

appropriate one in the long-range plans of the minister to transform

the system. I would urge support for our amendment which would delete

1040)(a).

On the amendment.

HON. MR. BRUMMET :

No, I cannot support the amendment. I think the member could well have

anticipated that had she related it to the act. The member has chosen

to interpret this as blanket contracting-out, and ignores "subject to

this act, the regulations," etc. I think it was

section 19, a previous

section we have passed, that said you cannot employ other than teachers

to teach. So how the member sees this as contracting-out I don't know.

Boards

are responsible employers. They are governed by the act, by the

regulations. They are also governed by contractual arrangements that

they have made with their employee groups. I am convinced that the

boards are responsible and are accountable for their decisions.

The

member makes the point that we shouldn't have in an enabling act the

right for anything to happen until we have decided everything and

exactly what is going to happen.

If I accept this

amendment, it virtually removes from the boards the power to contract

out busing, as they do now, the power to contract out many things that

are being contracted out, if you want to put it in those terms —

contractual arrangements for busing throughout this province. It would

rule out the possibility of providing the special needs that the member

made a great pitch for last night: that there has to be more

consideration of special needs. The member must note that where those

educational services can be purchased again specifies that it must be

under the direction of a member of the college — a teacher, an

administrator. Now I know you don't like administrators, but they're an

important part of the system, and they are teachers. So for special

needs, if the member would look at

section 106, deleting this

section

or this clause will in effect make

section 106 inoperative.

have said that over the next year we are going to have discussions and

consultation as to how health services, social services,

Solicitor-General services, legal services can be provided in the

school system. There is provision for the board to hire people to do it

themselves. There may be a need for that board to purchase services

from those other ministries, under the supervision of a member of the

college, whether it be counselling for someone who has been abused, or

something of that nature. So those are the types of things, and I could

go on and on with that.

The member mentioned no

consultation. All of the things that I'm talking about were a

consultation process and as much as possible was shown except the final

draft, which the member knows the House rules don't allow me to put out

for public discussion. I know there have been admonitions to me to put

this off for a year while we discuss it. That would simply put

everything on hold and make it that much more difficult to get

anywhere, to get anything started next year. The time to start is now.

Right now, today, at EPAC they're discussing the framework for these

types of things in the regulations. They're discussing the regulations,

so there's consultation going on as to how this is to be implemented.

That should at least satisfy the member.

To delete this, to

take this out, is not thought out. It's thought out from one

perspective, one

interpretation that then the member chooses to find

some examples from of how that

interpretation would provide something

evil, without relating it to the rest of the act. If I accept this

deletion, it really nullifies a great deal of good in the act. If

there's any potential harm, that will be discussed: advisory committees

in the consultation process, the responsible attitudes of the board,

the contractual arrangements. In other words, it can be looked after if

there's any harm possible, and the good here has great potential.

Amendment negatived.

section 104.

MS. MARZARI : I want to refer to 1040)(

b) in the context of a child care plan for the province. The

[ Page 8298 ]

schools

being the hub of our communities, and knowing that 200,000 children in

our province between the ages of one and a half and 12 could benefit

from licensed, safe child care, it seems to make some sense that we

build into our schools some provision for a child care arrangement.

HON. MR. BRUMMET :

A point of order. I know the member is a strong advocate of child care

centres, child care facilities and child care programs or day care

programs, and I commend her for that view; but it has nothing to do

with this

section of the act.

MR. CHAIRMAN : If the member could rephrase or keep her comments to 104, it would be appreciated, please.

MS. MARZARI :

I think the minister is helping to answer the question right now,

because as I read 1040)(

b) I see that boards and the minister may

"enter into an agreement concerning the promotion, development or

operation of recreational and community services." I think we all on

this side of the House at least agree that the provision of child care

is very much a community service, and one which has to be built as a

community service so that our communities can take it seriously and

start to rely on competent and safe care.

I would ask the minister — even though I think he's already answered my question —

whether or not we could interpret the (

b) section of subsection (1) to

assume that child care could be one of the community services built in

and whether or not that clause could be coupled with clause 116, as it

is in Ontario, where the ministry insists that any construction of a

new school building shall incorporate within it plans for child care

centres, either early child care or after-school child care. It seems

to me there's a complement there. If we use 104 and 116 together, the

minister could in fact create child care as a community service in this

province.

HON. MR. BRUMMET : The answer to that is

yes. It can be interpreted to include that. I thought we were going to

get into a debate on all of the merits of child care, which I felt had

no place. This makes it possible. It's wonderful, isn't it?

Sections 104 and 105 approved.

section 106.

MS. A. HAGEN :

I want to ask the minister a few questions to clarify the clause. It

is, I think, the first time in the act where we've had such a clear

statement of a mandate for the school system.

Let me

ask the minister to clarify or expand on the statement: "A board shall

provide health services, social services and other support services for

schools...." What do we mean by "shall provide"? Can the minister also

give us some indication of what he thinks might be included in the

other services that are suggested here? Who's going to be responsible

for the management, the supervision and the funding of such services?

Who makes decisions about who is eligible?

Let me give an

example of what I'm looking for in the minister's response. Social

Services and Health, of course, already have a very strong working

relationship with the school districts and the schools of the province,

but their mandates are very often not preventive or long-term but

really crisis management initiatives; that's probably especially true

with Social Services and Housing. If there is a need for longer-term

and more developmental and preventive services, who makes the decision

about the provision of service? Finally, given the broad right of

appeal to parents in clause 11 of the bill, would the failure of a

board to provide some of these services be subject to appeal?

There

are probably a number of other questions that might be asked, but

really what I'm inviting the minister to do is to provide us with some

interpretation of this clause in respect to management, supervision,

authority for the services, financial arrangements, eligibility of

students and access to appropriate and very much needed services — the right of appeal if those services aren't provided.

HON. MR. BRUMMET : I'll be delighted to interpret or explain.

The

royal commission made the point very strongly that schools are being

asked to do everything, and that there is confusion about whose

responsibility it is— the Ministry of Health, the Ministry of Social

Services, the Ministry of Education. They also made the point very

strongly that even though the mandate of the schools should be

narrowed, these services are essential for the development of the whole

child. The member must be aware that when we put out our policy

directions, we said that within the next year we will be working out a

protocol arrangement with the other ministries to try and clarify that.

The royal commission report really said that you've got to clarify

these areas of responsibility and how it's provided. I've indicated

that in some cases boards could hire the people to do it, in other

cases they might fund someone from the other ministry to come in. All

those protocol arrangements are being discussed and worked on.

What

this act does.... Whatever arrangements come up to provide those

services, it will be possible for that to happen, and the orders

section of this is to ensure consistency in every case when this

arrangement is done. I think it's the

section that says we don't have

to go back and write a new act or amend a new act in order to provide

those services as they are worked out.

I can't give you

what the responsibilities are for each case, but they are being worked

out, and the problem will not be, I guess, in dealing with whether or

not the service will be, but to convince the other ministers that

they're necessary and whether they should send in the nurse or whether

the school board should hire the nurse, counsellor, psychologist or

[ Page 8299 ]

whatever.

It will have to vary across the province. We're trying to make sure the

services are consistently available, and we're working on the protocol

agreements.

MS. A. HAGEN : This is another enabling

clause, and it's a big one, as I think I and the minister would agree.

I take from his word "convince" that in respect to the development of

these protocols, the minister is, I hope, going to be a strong advocate

for a broad base of services that really do enhance and contribute to

the other goals of education. I think one of the problems that we have

had, first of all, is that services haven't been available and school

districts, school teachers and other staff, as the minister has noted,

have tried to fill in. Also, very often the services are as determined

by those ministries, which may not always be in the best interests of

the needs of the kids in the school at that time. So I'm hoping that

what I'm hearing the minister say — and I'm quite happy to hear his response —

is that he'll be pushing for services under this particular mandate, in

cooperation with the industries that are going to be involved, that

will genuinely provide for the needs of kids in the system.

One

other confirmation that I want to have is that the cost of these

services will not be added to the fiscal framework if they are social

services, if they are health services, if they are Attorney-General

services; or if they are added, that they will be added not as

something that comes under the fiscal framework but is totally funded,

in fact, by the ministry. That broadened mandate requires a very

careful look as the minister looks at the review of funding and

taxation.

HON. MR. BRUMMET : Mr. Chairman, very

clearly the member asked if I'm going to be an advocate. If the member

will read this section, I think the evidence is right there. This

section says: "A board shall provide health services, social services

and other support services for schools in accordance with any orders

made by the minister." Compared to the trouble I had getting the other

ministers to agree, you're being very supportive of it. In other words,

a board shall provide those. Now you say you want me to be an advocate.

For heaven's sake, I can't be a stronger advocate than that.

Then

the member says it should not show up in the fiscal framework. Suppose

there's money in the fiscal framework for special needs, for special

services. You say you can't use that money out of the fiscal framework

to allow the school to pay for a physiotherapist or a counsellor. I

can't confirm that one.

MS. A. HAGEN : One last word,

Mr. Chairman. I'd be happy to have it pay for a counsellor, but if it's

a physiotherapist, I think the Health ministry should pay for it —

it's a health service. If it is going to come under the mandate, then

there needs to be consultation. If we're going to broaden the mandate

of the school system under our present funding formula, then I hope

that broadened mandate is clearly defined in the minister's review over

this next year when he's looking at funding and taxation. People want

services to be available. But let's remember that some of that

broadened mandate really could have the effect of simply shifting the

tax burden onto the local taxpayer. That's something that I know is

under review. I hope the minister just keeps that in mind. I welcome

the section, Mr. Chairman.

Sections 106 to 123 inclusive approved.

section 124.

MS. A. HAGEN :

Mr. Chairman, with your indulgence, I want to ask just two questions on

this long part. It will be easier if I do that in a kind of generic way

rather than trying to deal with each section, and then we'll be able to

move along.

The finance

section of the bill is, as the

minister has noted, under review at this time. There are, with I think

a couple of exceptions, no changes from current practice around funding

and taxation issues as they relate to provision of dollars for our

school system. I want to just ask the minister at this time whether he

can give us some measure of the increased mandate that the bill we're

debating will impose on the school system and whether the reflection of

that increased mandate will be, in fact, accommodated in the current

funding for the 1989-90 school year. I can't name what those changes

might be, but they could be under the clause that we were just

debating, services for children, in health and social services, and so

on. It could be in the area of adult education, which is something that

the board is now empowered to provide. We didn't have an opportunity

last night to inquire about the funding for that education if people

are coming back to get high school graduation. Perhaps the minister

could comment a little bit about that and about the accommodation

that's taking place in this year when there are changes being

contemplated.

HON. MR. BRUMMET : I hope we're not trying to mix apples and oranges here.

These

are the obligations, the responsibilities, in the legislation of what

shall be provided to provide an educational program for students. In

some cases it may be some expansions, as members see it; in other cases

it's a clarification of what the boards do. But the mandate, I guess,

remains to serve the best interests of the students in the province.

The

amount of funding is not a legislative issue; that's a budget issue.

All I can say is that the fiscal framework has been updated each year,

on advice. More things have been included. The budget has been

increased. We have indicated $1.4 billion over ten years for the

implementation of the new programs that the Sullivan report has told us

to do, plus the $1.5 billion, I guess, for the capital. So yes, there's

extra money there, but just where it will be applied and in what way is

a budget discussion and will

[ Page 8300 ]

always be a budget discussion; it will not be legislated.

[11:30]

MS. A. HAGEN : Mr. Chairman,

I appreciate the minister's comments. But you know, when we talk about

educational finance, we're talking about the dollars that people have

for the things they're required to do by the legislation.

The

minister has noted $1.4 billion for the implementation of the royal

commission. I remind him that it's actually $1.1 billion of new money.

I remind him that there's only $43 million, plus some reallocation, in

this year's budget.

I'm just speaking at this time of the

concerns that I hear from school districts and from people in

classrooms who are trying to stretch the resources they have, to do the

things that by the act, the regulations and the orders of the minister

they're required to do They want some assurance that those dollars are

going to be there, particularly if this bill says there are some

additional services that the boards didn't know about or weren't in

place when budgets were planned last year. Forty-three million dollars

in 75 school districts doesn't go very far. I think there's concern

that what we're looking at here is, yes, a more clearly defined

statement of what schools are to do — excellent; but concern that

the resources will not be there for that. That concern is particularly

true right now, because we don't have any changes. We're really looking

at a status quo in respect to this bill.

Mr. Chairman, I

want to raise one other question in regard to this

section on finance;

in respect to the tax on non-residential land. Does the minister have

any public policy statement on why the rates are what they are —

how those rates are set? I know I have the indulgence of the Chair in

dealing with finance in a broad way. That was the other question that I

wanted to ask. It actually comes under division 4 of this part, but if

I may ask it at this time, then we'll be able to move with this section.

HON. MR. BRUMMET :

Mr. Chairman, I'm certainly delighted in other venues to discuss the

budgeting and the finance. I'm sure that we'll have those discussions

and they'll be ongoing with all the interested parties. At least, I

can't visualize people not wanting to discuss budget matters further.

As for how the taxes are applied — the non-commercial and that sort of thing —

I'm sorry, I'll have to indicate that that's the Finance minister's

problem We try and indicate how much money we need to have to run the

education system. I guess you could say we have a contractual

arrangement with the Minister of Finance. I tell him how much we need

and how we're going to spend it, and have to justify it, and then I let

him worry about coming up with the money. Because of that worry, he's

not too enamoured with me on all occasions, and neither are some of the

taxpayers, if you're getting any of the messages that I am.

MS. A. HAGEN :

I feel a little uneasy, Mr. Chairman, leaving this whole

section with

such limited attention. Let me just exhort the minister to keep it up,

in terms of the resources that are needed for the system, because

that's one of the things that Mr. Sullivan said loud and clear: that

the system was under-resourced.

The challenge that the

minister has set for his ministry and for the thousands of people that

work in the system is quite daunting, and very important to the future

of the province. He has our full support in anything that he might do

that can add to the resources that are available for that task,

including increased spending. I hope that the minister and I have a

common perspective on that agenda. If we have that agreement this

morning, it will make Friday morning well worth it.

HON. MR. BRUMMET :

I thank the member for that support. I would hope that instead of her

blaming us when the taxpayers are complaining, I would also get the

member's support to convince the taxpayers that education is a good

investment and that the taxes may not be exorbitant.

Interjection.

HON. MR. BRUMMET : I have your support on that? Well, that's wonderful.

Sections 124 to 142 inclusive approved.

section 143.

HON. MR. BRUMMET : I move the amendment standing in my name on the order paper.

[Section 143.,

in the proposed subsection (6) by striking out

"A" and substituting "Subject to

section 141 (10), a".]

Amendment approved.

Section 143 as amended approved.

Sections 144 to 180 inclusive approved.

section 181.

MR. CHAIRMAN : Did we go one too far, hon. member?

MS. A. HAGEN : No, Mr. Chairman. You are doing wonderfully well. We are really copasetic this morning.

Let

me just ask one question in respect to the Ministry of Education.

Perhaps, for those people who are following our debate through the

Hansard record, I would just note that we are now dealing with a

section that relates to the organization and responsibilities of the

Ministry of Education. It's a very important

section that enables us to

bring together some of the themes and issues we have been following as

threads and mazes through this whole act.

[ Page 8301 ]

want to get some of the minister's sense of how he sees the ministry

working with school districts and with the stakeholders — just a

little bit of a statement, if you like, about the role of the ministry.

We've been talking a lot about the importance of communication,

cooperation, trust, consultation, due process and all of those aspects

of the anatomy of organizations that keep them healthy and thriving.

I'd

like the minister just to comment briefly about his philosophical

perspectives, or his intents and goals. This is an opportunity for the

minister to say something about how he sees the role of his ministry

and the people who work within that ministry in this large,

multi-governed — or bi-governed, if you like — bilateral

governance of education where we have the provincial government as the

constitutional authority. We have duly constituted school districts and

we have the schools of the province, with many powers and

responsibilities as well.

HON. MR. BRUMMET : Do you want the five-minute version or the six-hour version? There is so much in what you have asked me to say.

suppose, in a nutshell, I believe that all of us exist to serve the

best interests of the students and, through the students, society. That

is our fundamental purpose. Without that goal and that mandate, there

is really no reason for our existence — not personally, but in the corporate or structural sense.

believe that things happen best when they are done in a cooperative and

consultative manner, and I certainly have committed myself to that to

the extent possible. That does not mean that at some time I don't have

to say: "And everybody shall do the same thing." Consultation means

pulling together all of the views of people, but you can't go on

consulting forever. At some point decisions have to be made. To the

extent that those decisions can be a total consensus, that is the best

way to get things done.

I know that when the people who are carrying out the activities take ownership — and by that I mean that they believe that is the thing to do —

that is the most effective system you can possibly have. I suppose in

that sense I am committed to carrying that out; I am committed to the

consultative process. I accept the fact that Barry Sullivan said that

there will be a diversity of opinion, but that diversity is not

necessarily wrong.

I don't always expect people to agree

with me. I would like to think that most of our discussion can and

should be on correct information, rather than on misapprehensions that

are created by incorrect assumptions. I would like to get on with the

wonderful opportunity the Sullivan report has given us. The royal

commission report, "A Legacy for Learners," has said: "Embark in a new

direction. If you do that, students will be better served and society

will be better served." I happen to believe that can happen.

In this legislation we have put in, I guess for the first time, that from to

time — it's impossible to specify how often this should happen — the Minister

of Education shall make a statement of the policy for education in the province.

We have made that statement now in our mission statement, in our mandate statement,

in our description of the educated citizen and that sort of thing, but from

time to time we are now obligated to say: "And this is the policy."

That's the short version, and I can expand on that.

believe we've got a golden opportunity here. I think we have much

evidence of how much we have benefited from the input of the various

stakeholders, whose continued involvement we have assured, and how much

better it has been. We've got the opportunity here to really move into

making our system one of the best for all people concerned. I would

like to think that our focus will be on how we can interpret that

towards that objective and focus on our similarities and our common

interests rather than on our differences.

MR. CHAIRMAN : Just before we continue, hon. members, the Minister of Health has asked leave to make an introduction.

Leave granted.

HON. MR. DUECK :

Today in the gallery we have two very important people. One is my son,

here visiting from Calgary. He's a schoolteacher, and it's appropriate

that he visit the House at this time, since we're discussing Ministry

of Education legislation. With him today is a friend, Pam Morgan, a

professional photographer from Los Angeles, California. My son teaches

music in a school in Calgary. Although he hasn't had time to hear the

different discussions that take place in the House, I would like to

tell him that when he goes back to his classroom, he'll find they're

very intelligent, very organized, very respectful of each other,

contrary to what happens in the House at times.

Anyway, would the House please make them welcome.

HON. MR. STRACHAN : I would also like leave to make an introduction, Mr. Chairman.

Leave granted.

HON. MR. STRACHAN :

First of all, parenthetically to the minister's son who is a music

teacher, I'll tell him that I'm also a musician, and one thing that

he'll notice in this House is that we avoid parallel movement. A

musician will understand that.

I would like to ask all

members of the Legislative Assembly to wish birthday greetings to a

colleague of ours. This colleague and I have a couple of things in

common: we were both elected in '79, we're both mediocre tennis

players, and we both have the same initials. Would the House wish a

happy birthday to the member for Oak Bay–Gordon Head (Mr. B.R. Smith).

Section 181 approved.

[ Page 8302 ]

section 182.

MS. A. HAGEN :

This

section deals with the jurisdiction of the minister. It really

provides in an umbrella clause a statement of the responsibilities and

jurisdiction of the minister, who may, without restriction, make orders

on a whole range of matters governing the provision of educational

programs, requirements for graduation, the general nature of those

programs, preparing for an assessment, resource materials and so on. I

want to ask the minister, first of all, why it is necessary in this

particular case to use the words "without restriction," given that what

we are looking at, we hope, is legislation that provides a clearly

defined framework within the act and the regulations. What's the force

of that particular statement?

[11:45]

HON. MR. BRUMMET :

As I understand it, that's the legal version of making sure that when a

consensus is reached about graduation requirements, the minister can in

fact say the graduation requirements apply across the board. You could

use a lot of other examples. I guess you take the connotation of

"without restriction, may make orders," and then it gives the specific

areas which may give orders, so in effect it does tend to have a

limiting effect.

I can't just give any orders without

restriction. It says subject to this act, subject to the regulations

and subject to determining the general nature of educational program

for use in schools, and it specifies educational programs guides. This

is the sort of thing that is worked out by consultation, by curriculum

committees, and then if that is In fact to be the curriculum for that

group of students in the school there has to be a way to say, "And that

shall be the curriculum," rather than: "Now we have all very carefully

worked out a curriculum, but do as you like." That's really what this

section is about.

MS. A. HAGEN : We're going to zero

in on one particular clause or part of this

section around the powers

of the minister. We're choosing this because we know there is a good

deal of concern in the community at large about the ministerial powers

here, because the ministry has moved ahead with great speed on the

issue of assessment and accountability, which is

section (d), which

speaks of preparing a process for the assessment of the effectiveness

of educational programs and also empowers the minister to require

boards to participate in a process of comparison of standards

provincially, nationally and internationally.

There are

genuine concerns abroad. I spoke of some of those last night. I know

the member for Maillardville-Coquitlam has some questions and concerns,

and I would like to ask him to enter the debate at this time.

MR. CASHORE : My comments are in relation to (

d) of

section 182. I put

them in the context of our general good feelings about this act. In the explanatory

notes it refers to the act being learner-focused and school board authority

being increased. There are some concerns with regard to the powers in this act

as to just why this particular part, (d), is necessary.

There

is some concern that it opens the door to centralized control of

information with regard to students, and there's the potential of

eroding the value of the local administration with regard to such

information. It raises a question of why it would be necessary to go

into the cost of implementing the monitoring system. I believe that the

figure of $6 million has been referenced on this. My general questions

are: why is this justified? Why is it necessary? What needs to happen

that wasn't happening before?

When we're thinking about

information being collected on students, isn't it better if we

recognize that this information is now available within the districts?

If we are indeed recognizing the importance of enhancing the role of

the district, then who better to interpret to the ministry what the

meaning of that information would be? Hence, that should be the source

of receiving information. The district, after all, has the basis for

understanding the meaning of the information, and numbers really have

no inherent meaning outside of

interpretation. It would be the district

that would be in the best position to provide that.

I think

we need to be concerned that if these powers result in the labelling of

students into categories, we're moving away from one of the values that

we want to achieve in education, the value that would be related to a

more decentralized process. There are concerns, after all, about the

invasion of privacy or the potential for that. At the very least, we

need assurances on the record that that is not the case. I do note that

there are some assurances provided in bulletin 360B which I think have

addressed some of these issues.

I would also be interested

in knowing what measures will be used to derive data on human and

social development. Even though that might not be the kind of data that

will be derived until up into the next year, there is a potential for

that in the future. There's a real concern that this section, in

combination with other initiatives, will result in real learning being

supplemented by efforts simply to achieve higher scores on tests. We

know that that isn't really going to provide the result that this act

seeks to achieve.

HON. MR. BRUMMET : If even a

fraction of the motives for collection of data were true that are being

attributed to us in the attempt to criticize, I would be more paranoid

than any of you. It is conceivable that at any time some other

government or some group could walk in and amend this act to remove all

protection for confidentiality. It is conceivable, but it certainly is

not likely to happen.

In this legislation we have tried to

assure confidentiality, saying that boards must set up systems to

ensure the confidentiality, but they must make it

[ Page 8303 ]

available

to parents. We have said that every member in the ministry must be

sworn to confidentiality. If you'll notice something, that's not just a

blind statement. It says that any member who contravenes that

confidentiality commits an offence, period. That definition legally

means that that person commits an offence under the Offence Act, and

that's a pretty serious problem. We have tried to do that.

know it's impossible for the member, and sometimes I find it almost

impossible, to keep up with everything that's going on through the

consultation process and through the ministry, because I can't get into

all the administration. I can tell you that the Sullivan report did say:

"Two final themes that ran through much of the public discussion

should also be mentioned. One was the concept of accountability or what was

sometimes termed responsibility. It was widely observed that the public has

a right to hold its institutions accountable for the quality of services they

render and the decisions they make, at least to the extent that these decisions

are under the control of such institutions."

And it goes on. We have said that accountability — financial and educational — should be in there.

also put out a bulletin on the system on June 20. 1 have made it

available to my opposition critic, but I know everybody can't read it;

I'm sorry. It says: "Student evaluation is a classroom-based activity.

Teachers now deal with very complex programs of instruction and need

more detailed, individual data to properly evaluate and report on the

progress of each student. Technology can help teachers manage this

task." So that is in there.

I suppose I'm familiar with the

system where we used to spend hours and hours in the fall adding up how

all of that. That used to be called form K. The bureaucrats in the

ministry used to send it to me when I was a school principal. I had to

spend a lot of hours putting that form together. If the program the

student is taking is there and is modified from time to time in the

computer, then we can ask districts how many students they have taking

French 11. Bang, they have it.

We expect that this

information that we want centrally will eliminate a lot of the forms.

School boards have been asked to say whether they can do it

electronically this year. We gave the money, remember, back in March to

provide the equipment. There is still a lot of work being done on the

software. We said: "Can you do it electronically? Are you geared up, or

do you need another year to do it manually?" Eventually we'll move

over. There's even a form that specifies the type of data the ministry

is looking for. It's basic data.

I might point out in any

event that only information summarized on a provincewide basis will be

reported to the public by the ministry. The ministry does not wish to

standardize or formalize classroom activities, but rather to help

teachers manage. The ministry does not wish to replace regular teacher

evaluation practices with a student information system link. The

ministry does not wish to access school or district files, or to create

a central registry of student records which is updated routinely. It

goes on to say what the ministry does intend.

I hope that

by expanding on the member's question I can alleviate some of the

concerns out there. Of course, if some of the things that have been

attributed to the intent here happened, it would be a violation of

privacy. We have said that there is privacy, and there is privacy under

the Charter of Rights. We have tried to assure confidentiality.

Yes,

we do want to know if we can better track whether students are dropping

out or whether they're showing up elsewhere. We're still working

specifically on what we need for that purpose. We need a few things

provincially. We can eliminate all of those things being sent in on

forms if they're available on the computer. The computer will never do

anything other than provide you with data that's fed into it. I hope

that can alleviate some of the member's concerns and certainly some of

the concerns of the public which have actually been generated by the

type of thing that was never intended.

MR. JONES :

I'll try not to take up too much time, because I know we are pressed

for time today and would like to get through as much as possible. I did

want to comment on this section, which I would call the Big Brother

section of the act — in particular, subsection (d), which talks about assessment.

I'm

just wondering if perhaps the minister is planning to expand the size

of his office to accommodate some of the computer banks that might be

necessary to keep track of the 500,000 students in this province and to

use up some of the $6 million that is very clearly going to be used to

centralize an information system with impersonal student numbers — a system that very clearly is not child-centred and not teacher-centred. I'm very afraid — and the minister recognizes the concerns out there —

that this is going to very much be a ministry-driven school system, and

much more centralized as a result of the kind of data-gathering that is

going to take place under this assessment program.

The

minister can correct me if I'm wrong. He has some circular that I

haven't seen and I don't think this side of the House has seen. My

understanding is that by September 1990 the ministry will be tracking

all students on their intellectual, human, social and career

development. I think there's some concern that if, as part of that

information, there is information on teen pregnancy, drug and alcohol

abuse and other demographic data, there is potential for abuse. I

appreciate the minister's remarks about confidentiality. We have

confidentiality measures around this chamber as well, yet we know how

fast information often travels among members and between the media. I'm

hoping that there can be more assurances of confidentiality and that

they will not accumulate any information that isn't necessary.

[12:00]

I think the system can profit from an accountability system.

Nobody is opposed to that. I'm particularly proud of the work that the

minister does when he talks about some of the things that this

section

[ Page 8304 ]

refers to — about national and international competitions —

when the minister rightly brags about the 13-year-olds who do so well

on the math and science assessment both nationally and internationally,

I think all British Columbians are proud of those kinds of

achievements, as with the students in the Euclid contest and the other

mathematics contest. I think we're all justifiably proud of those kinds

of achievements of our young people in this province.

think there is a danger that this information can be abused. It won't

be just provincially, nationally or internationally; we'll get down to

information being abused that gets down to the level of the district,

the school, the individual teacher or the individual student. That

potential is there with this system. I think with that potential being

there, it's potentially divisive and potentially disruptive.

The

section on the system, I hope, is aimed at improving our school system,

But I think it's very difficult to collect a lot of the kind of data

that is important to measure the success of the school system. Much of

that information is completely intangible: a student's love of

learning, the individual potential of a student that's mentioned in the

preamble. The actual measurement of that human interaction process that

goes on for those ten months of the year is very difficult to measure.

I have a concern, too, about the massive expenditure — not the $6 million, not the hardware, not the software —

the massive amount of human expenditure that I expect will be going

into this process that was not there in the past. People tell me that

computers save time; I've never been convinced of that. I find that

computers consume much more time than they ever could save. That time

is going to be taken up by ministry staff, school staff, secretaries

and teachers, and it's going to be at the expense of time spent working

with young people. In my experience in chemistry, I spent greater than

10 percent of my time on assessment of students' progress, and because

of provincial exams in the last week or so of the course, I spent 100

percent of the time in preparing for that final assessment. So we have

a great deal of accountability going on at the classroom level, the

district level and at the school level now. I'm afraid that we're going

much further in this area here.

I think if we are, as it

says in subsection (

d) interested in the assessment of the

effectiveness of the educational programs, then I'd have to ask the

minister why, as an important part of the process measure of the

effectiveness of those programs, he would deem to stop collecting data

on class size an important part of a process measure in terms of the

effectiveness of educational programs.

While I believe that

the assessment is important and the accountability is important, I see

this whole assessment program as a serious sign that the accountants

have taken over. I think it's the opposite of the kind of thing that

the first member for Vancouver East (Mr. Williams) was talking about

last night in his annual speech on education about the chaining of the

school system and of our young people and not freeing their talents.

Clearly this kind of centralized system is doing just the opposite of

what that member was talking about last night. I think in order to

ensure the kinds of safeguards that are necessary to ameliorate the

concerns, which are certainly widespread in this province about this

system, I would suggest that the whole accountability system, the whole

assessment system, be turned over to EPAC for that broad-based input so

that the trust that's necessary to make this kind of system work will

be in place.

HON. MR. BRUMMET : I was kind of hopeful

that the member might have been aware that EPAC has been dealing with

the assessment and making recommendations and bouncing out. It was at

EPAC that the discussions came: what factors should be considered? The

whole list was put out and then some of them said: "This doesn't make

sense, and this doesn't make sense." So EPAC has had quite an input,

and the Education Advisory Council, in the future, will have that.

think the member's first question was: is this going to expand the

computer operations of the ministry? No, we have the capacity now to

deal with this. I think we can put people to better use than

translating information from the handwritten forms now as to how many

students there are in your district and how many are taking French 11,

or something of that nature, onto records so that we can do a

summary

for the province. I think it will save a great deal of time.

don't know whether the member intended it or not, but he said that, in

all of his experience, computers don't save time and, I suppose,

they're no help. Well, we're committed to a program of $15 million a

year — as long as I can keep getting it from the Ministry of Finance —

to put the computers into the schools. They have been in the schools,

and many teachers have used computers to do report cards, even before

anybody suggested it and before it was suggested in the act. So a lot

of that is going on. I have to wonder why these people are doing it

that way, on computers, and working on it. Despite the member's

counsel, we intend to go on with getting computers into schools and

using them.

You say it doesn't save any time. I can tell

the member that we can pull, "What if we did this to the tax structure,

what would be the result?" and somebody can change a factor — I won't pretend I'm computer literate, but I've got people in the ministry who are —

and within an hour or two they can say that this would have this effect

on each district. They just change the factor and, bang, it runs it

off. And you're going to try and tell me that computers don't save time.

HON. MR. MICHAEL : The NDP are against computers.

HON. MR. BRUMMET :

I can't believe that. That's going too far. But with that member I am

somewhat confused. Last night he had a great time at me on some of the

conflict of interest and then stood up and

[ Page 8305 ]

voted for it, so I can't be sure where that member stands. I guess it depends on where he sits.

I have tried to say that this is not to collect individual student data separately —

except I have to correct that. We may need their age, maybe, on the

forms so that we know how many 15-year-olds or how many 20-year-olds

there are in the school system. We may need that. But we have made it

very clear that we are looking for

summary information in the ministry.

The computers are there, and if it's in the computers anyway, why in

heaven's name would we have to say: "Don't put it in the computer; put

it all on forms so that we can hire a whole bunch more people in order

to translate it from forms into summaries." I have difficulty with

that. I guess we'll leave it at that.

Sections 182 to 184 inclusive approved.

section 185.

MS. A. HAGEN :

There's an amendment to 185 standing in my name on the order paper. I

will move that amendment and speak to it in a moment, but I want to put

it in the context of the whole clause, because it adds a clause. We

will then be able to frame the discussion appropriately.

This

is the

section of the bill that deals with the establishment of the

Education Advisory Council, currently known as EPAC, the Education

Policy Advisory Committee, that the minister has quite often made

reference to in the course of our debate. I noted earlier, and I want

to state again, that I am very pleased that the minister has mandated

this committee. I think it's an extremely important initiative.

[Mr. Rabbitt in the chair.]

many of us have done during this debate, I make reference to the

Sullivan commission, which notes in its last statement before the

recommendation on the establishment of an advisory committee: "We

believe that this great resource of human capital, which has

immeasurably aided our efforts, could make major contributions to

others entrusted with the direction and well-being of the educational

system." We believe that that is indeed the potential of this body.

The

minister has also made this body representative, and I would hope that

that is in the full sense of the word and that those organizations that

are a part of the Education Advisory Council in their own right will

have the right to appoint their representatives and deal with the

manner by which they will inform and involve their membership in that

representation.

I'm somewhat disappointed that within the

act there isn't some indication of who will be members of EAC, although

we have a model in EPAC. I would trust that the regulation, the

order-in-council, that is going to indicate what that membership is and

prescribe the terms of reference will also be the product of

consultation with not only the current group of people but others as

well. Consultation is a difficult, time-consuming,

not-always-comfortable process, but it is an essential part of our

pluralistic and widely geographically dispersed democratic society, and

the minister has an important task in structuring how this committee

will work.

Having said that, I want to move to the

amendment, which is an amendment dealing with a deficiency in this

clause that I think is quite major. By its inclusion, it very

significantly includes the workings of consultation and development of,

particularly, the detailed curriculum assessment expansion and

relevance of our school curriculum.

I want to read the

amendment into the record. The amendment would require that we add to

this

section another committee, a committee strongly recommended by the

Sullivan commission. The amendment would read: "The minister shall

establish a Provincial Curriculum Committee, as a standing committee of

the Education Advisory Council, for the purpose of advising the

Minister through the Education Advisory Council, on matters affecting

curriculum development, implementation and evaluation"; then a

procedural addition that would have the terms of reference spelled out

in the usual way through orders-in-council.

I believe that

there is a strong need for a policy body to deal with curriculum. It

would be what I call the workhorse of the Education Advisory Council

which deals much more broadly with policy initiatives. It could take a

very significant role in refining the assessment processes which the

minister has indicated he is committed to developing through a process

of consultation.

It would be a statement by the minister of

his understanding of the importance of curriculum development as a

policy initiative as well, because curriculum development requires not

just the professional input that I know comes now with the extensive

work of teachers, but in the broad framework of curriculum development

it requires the input of business people, of people in labour, of

parents, of people who have long experience and wisdom in the

community — of seniors — of people concerned about the

education of special needs children. By not having that vehicle

mandated, I believe that the minister has significantly weakened the

import of the Sullivan commission recommendations. The two go hand in

hand. They are a part of a structure that was worked on, as I know from

discussions with many people who have been hands-on in the whole

conceptual development of how we would make the system work.

[12:15]

The inclusion of this amendment, I believe, would be a very

significant acknowledgement by the minister of his understanding of

those two interlocked committee relationships and a commitment to broad

consultation in the development, implementation and assessment of

curriculum. I hope that the minister can see that an initiative on his

part at this time would be a very welcome statement in the broad

community of people concerned with the education of children in the

province.

[ Page 8306 ]

HON. MR. BRUMMET :

I know that some of the amendments brought forth by the member are well

intentioned, but they are so narrowly focused, so ill-thought-out in

focusing on the one topic, with a complete disregard for the total

picture.

Section 1850) says: "The minister shall appoint an

education advisory council to advise the minister on policy matters

respecting education." I don't know how you can deal with education

without dealing with curriculum. In the EPAC, the Education Policy

Advisory Committee that we have had, they found they had to develop

subcommittees on curriculum subcommittees on assessment subcommittees

on evaluation.

I notice that the member made some comment

about EAC, and I don't know what derogatory thing you can do with that

acronym. I have to go by your practice of somehow or other managing to

change administrative officers into something derogatory, as you were

alluding to the other night. I don't know what you can do with EAC,

because my mind doesn't run in those channels. I am talking about an

education advisory council.

What you do with the acronym is

your responsibility. I would hope that it doesn't deflect from the real

purpose of this. I am not going to accept the amendment. At least I am

certainly going to suggest that we don't accept the amendment, because

I don't want it limited to a curriculum committee. I want the Education

Advisory Council to set subcommittees as it sees fit.

Yes,

in the Sullivan report they mentioned the Education Advisory Council

and the curriculum. The way the system has worked so far, we feel that

to put one in here would be far more limiting than to say that it can

be done. Today at EPAC they are discussing the need for a curriculum

advisory committee They have a primary one; they have been working on

other ones, and I don't want to limit it in the act to one. That

committee, I would hope, will set up the subcommittees as required

without limitation in the legislation.

MR. CHAIRMAN :

Just a point of clarification. To the member for New Westminster, as

you know, I just came into the chair. Did you move the amendment

standing in your name?

MS. A. HAGEN : I think I did,

Mr. Chairman, but if there is any question for the record, may I now

ensure that the amendment standing in my name on the order paper is

moved.

MR. JONES : I am trying to decide in my mind

how I should vote on this amendment, and it would really help me if I

understood the composition of the education advisory committee. My

colleague the member for New Westminster raised a number of questions

and concerns in her opening remarks on this

section about the

appointment process and who might be represented there and how those

people might come to be members of the Education Advisory Council. It

would help me in understanding whether they should be responsible for

curriculum if I understood who was going to be there. So could the

minister clarify how he sees the composition of the Education Advisory

Council?

HON. MR. BRUMMET : It's a new situation in

the province, a new requirement, but we have the good experience and

the guidelines that we have had in appointing the Education Policy

Advisory Committee last August. We didn't want to spell out a list of

names and then end up having a really good representation that should

be on there and saying the act doesn't allow it. So it's there, and we

intend to do it. I think people would hold us to the basic composition.

There might be some changes in that, but the major stakeholders are

obviously going to have to be represented.

I don't know

whether it was a concern or a commendation that the member expressed on

(5). We've said that if the member is not an individual, then the

member — meaning the organization — shall appoint their

representative. We have covered that off. For instance, the BCTF and

BCSTA would logically be on that policy advisory committee. I don't

know what other groups, but if we invite the BCTF or the BCSTA to step

on there, we have right in the legislation that they are members and

will appoint the individuals to represent them. I will not pick them. I

would say which organization is involved. So subsection (5) covers that

off.

Amendment negatived.

Section 185 approved.

section 186.

MS. A. HAGEN :

Mr. Chairman, you've just come into the chair. I have been attempting

to facilitate our progress through this bill, and at this point we are

prepared to move to the

preamble of the bill, which means we're

prepared to have you take action on the remaining sections.

Sections 186 to 230 inclusive approved.

On the

preamble.

MR. BARNES :

I first want to commend the member for New Westminster on her very

methodical and, I think, superb critique of the bill. It certainly has

been a very special occasion for the province of British Columbia,

having to address this new act.

Before I proceed I would

like to submit an amendment to the

preamble, if that is in order, Mr.

Chairman. The

preamble, as far as it goes, is quite important and very

well stated, but there is just one small point that I would like to

talk about. I'm sure the minister will, after hearing what I have to

say, probably agree that this amendment is different than all of the

other amendments the opposition has moved. You certainly won't have any

difficulty agreeing with me.

[ Page 8307 ]

"Whereas the purpose of the British Columbia school system is to enable

learners to develop their individual potential and to acquire the knowledge,

skills and attitudes needed to contribute to a healthy society and a prosperous

and sustainable economy I'm merely asking to insert the word "multicultural"

between "healthy" and "society," that's all. In so doing I

am speaking to what the minister himself has been saying: this bill is forward

looking, relevant and an attempt to address the needs of tomorrow.

Mr.

Chairman, some time ago I placed a question on the order paper to all

of the ministries, including the Ministry of Education. I won't read

the whole series of questions, just one. I asked the minister to

describe the programs that exist in his ministry which address

multiculturalism. Part of the reply that I received from the minister

was that multiculturalism is a theme that pervades all educational

program development, activities in the ministry from the setting of

educational goals to production or selection of materials. He went on

to state that the definition of an educated citizen refers specifically

to tolerance and acceptance of cultural differences.

That

is in essence the one flaw in this whole process. I was listening very

carefully, for instance, last night to the first member for Vancouver

East (Mr. Williams), who had some pretty harsh words to say about the

public school system, suggesting that this bill, for instance, had no

substance. I'm not suggesting that it has absolutely no substance.

After my commending the member for New Westminster and other debaters

who have made contributions through the debate on the bill, I certainly

had quite a bit to say about some pretty important aspects, and I'm not

going to condemn the bill.

I think that the commissioner,

the late Barry Sullivan, made it quite clear in his statements, which

were reported in his final report called "A Legacy for Learners," that

multiculturalism was a concept that should be very much a part of

public school legislation and of public school responsibility. He went

on to talk at great length in his report about multiculturalism. I'm

not going to read every aspect that dealt with multiculturalism in the

report, but some aspects of what he had to say should be noted for the

record. This is why I know that the minister will want to think very

carefully about the importance of including multiculturalism in the

preamble of this very important public document.

To my

knowledge, nowhere in any public legislation of this province does the

word "multiculturalism" appear. We are way behind the rest of the

country. We know that there is now a federal multiculturalism act, and

we know that all provinces are beginning to come up with

multiculturalism policies, and we know that the demographics signify

the urgency of making these adjustments if we are going to deal with a

far more complex, far more culturally diversified and racially mixed

society; if we are going to stem the potential tide, shall we say, of

racism, misunderstanding, bigotry, scapegoating and all of the strife

and struggles that occur in a society where there is ignorance and lack

of understanding. This is why I say that multiculturalism is a fact. It

should be included in the

preamble, because the whole thrust of the

public school system is to prepare students to become good citizens, to

learn tolerance, to participate and to make a contribution, as the

minister says, to a healthy society.

MR. CHAIRMAN :

Hon. member, I hesitate to interrupt but, reviewing the amendment, it

appears that it is not in order. I refer to Erskine May, twentieth

edition, page 554, which states: "Amendments to a

preamble and title

are also admissible where amendments have been made to the bill which

render them necessary." It has been indicated to me that the amendments

that have been made do not necessitate a change in the

preamble.

Therefore, I would rule that the amendment is not in order, and I would

ask the member to confine his remarks to the

preamble.

[12:30]

MR. BARNES :

Mr. Chairman, I appreciate your ruling, and I certainly don't intend to

contest it. I just want to address the concept that I am attempting to

enlighten the House about, because I think it's very important. Though

we may not be able to reflect this in the

preamble, it's unfortunate,

because if nothing else we would want to inspire a more enthusiastic

response from the public school system, from teachers, from

administrators and from the public in general that the public school

system recognizes its responsibility.

The public school

system is far more than a place strictly of academic experience, of

learning the three Rs, so to speak. It is learning about life itself.

It's learning about oneself, about one's society, about the political

nature of society, about the realities of the diversity of that society.

will simply conclude my remarks by saying that I'm very excited about

this bill. I am very much in support of the initiatives that have been

taken, and I do think that some progress has been made as far as this

new document is concerned. But it does fall short of the spirit of what

I believe the royal commission recommended in terms of a

forward-looking document that had substance in the

preamble, that

inspired teachers, students and the public generally, especially where

you have people coming to the public school system who need to settle

and adjust.

This is a change that is happening every day.

There are going to be complete shifts in the demographics, in the

racial mix, and the problem of teaching people how to coexist and

function toward a common goal in society is a serious challenge for the

public school system.

I don't think we should say that

multiculturalism permeates all of the programs and all of the thinking

within the public school system when nowhere do you mention the word

multiculturalism. This is a fault; it is an omission. I think that upon

reflection you will realize how important it would have been to have a

preamble in a public document that spoke

[ Page 8308 ]

optimistically

about the future and told people that we are catching up with our

historic past. We have always been a multicultural society, but we seem

not yet prepared to state it in our opening statement in a document as

important as this. With regret, I feel this needn't have happened. The

government could have made this change, and it would have done us all a

great service.

It is so important, Mr. Chairman, that we

talk to young people today about multiculturalism and what it means. We

must ensure that teachers are prepared to deal with the different

races, the different cultures; that the course content reflects the

realities of a multicultural society; that seeing is believing; that we

want the visible minorities to come forward. We want to have a hands-on

kind of culture where what we talk about is happening in the classroom,

in the learning situation. This is going to take a little more than the

abstract notions that we've had about multiculturalism.

We're

talking about specific actions. One very important action would be to

amend the

preamble so the very first thing people see when they read

this legislation is that we recognize that we're a multicultural

society; we want people to think about it; we want to grow with it and

understand it, because our future depends on it.

MR. CHAIRMAN : Thank you, hon. member. The Chair was a bit lenient in the debate on the

preamble

MR. BLENCOE :

Point of order on your ruling, Mr. Chairman. You referred to changes or

amendments to the

preamble that would be required as a result of

amendments to the bill. I can understand that; that makes sense. The

member for Vancouver Centre is not making a change to the

preamble as a

result of an amendment. He is recommending an amendment straight to the

preamble. I wonder if that could be taken into consideration. This is

not as a result of an amendment to the bill, and the ruling is silent

on that. I wonder if you would take that under advisement.

MR. CHAIRMAN :

I thank the hon. member for his comments. I would like to advise him

that all of those matters were taken into consideration before the

ruling was made.

Preamble approved.

Title approved.

HON. MR. BRUMMET : I move the committee rise and report the bill complete with amendments.

Motion approved.

The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair.

Bill 67, School Act, reported complete with amendments.

MR. SPEAKER : When shall the bill be read a third time?

HON. MR. VEITCH : By leave now, Mr. Speaker.

Leave granted.

Bill 67, School Act, read a third time and passed.

HON. MR. VEITCH : Committee on Bill 68, Mr. Speaker.

INDEPENDENT SCHOOL ACT

The House in committee on Bill 68; Mr. Rabbitt in the chair.

section 1.

MS. A. HAGEN :

This is a much shorter bill than the other one. "Educational program"

has no limitations on it as there are limitations in the School Act,

which defines an educational program as being "in the opinion of...."

Who in fact determines that the educational program is achieving the

goals established by this definition?

HON. MR. BRUMMET :

The inspector and the inspection process for the schools will determine

if they are meeting their mandate in terms of an educational program.

MS. A. HAGEN :

Can the minister give me some idea, given the size of the operation,

what resources are available to the inspector, how many schools that

person is responsible for and what staff resources that person has — trying to be gender-neutral — to carry out those responsibilities on behalf of the people of the province?

HON. MR. BRUMMET :

I am assuming that the question was the size of the inspector's

department to do the inspection, because I think you are aware of the

number of schools.

The inspector is in charge of the

inspection. The inspector has the authority to set up a group of,

generally, three experienced educators to do evaluations and

assessment. He may go in himself and delegate it to people.

MS. A. HAGEN :

just a further word on that, because there is a current situation

regarding an independent school, where the concerns about standards in

the school came not from the minister's staff but from the community in

which the school is located and the health inspection people there.

the minister satisfied, in terms of accountability and the assurance

that educational programs are being offered, that he has the capacity

in his ministry to provide for the necessary inspection and monitoring

to ensure that children in the independent school system, who in many

instances are receiving funding

[ Page 8309 ]

from the public purse, are being provided what they are supposed to be?

HON. MR. BRUMMET :

As in the public school system, there are inspection processes in

place, but we don't have an inspector sitting in the school each day,

on a day-to-day basis. In this process, I think the standard practice

is, unless otherwise indicated, for an assessment evaluation to be done

every two years.

On the school that the member mentions,

there was a committee, and it found it acceptable. That was their

report. That's why in the act there is also a requirement to meet

municipal and other standards. That came to the attention of the

inspector in the morning, and by the afternoon the inspector of schools

had indicated: "It has come to our attention that there are some

problems. Unless you can give a satisfactory explanation or a

justification within one week, your funding will be pulled." So that's

pretty good action.

Sections 1 to 4 inclusive approved.

section 5.

MS. A. HAGEN :

This particular clause deals with certification of teachers in the

independent schools. Probably one of the most important qualities of

all our schools is the calibre of teachers in those schools, and that

is of course governed and determined by very careful certification

processes.

There is a College of Teachers that certifies

teachers in the province. This enables the independent schools to have

a separate process available for the certification of their teachers,

an independent school teachers' certification committee. I wonder if

the minister could explain to us why we have this different

classification, and give some characteristics of a teacher classified

under the independent schools certification committee that would be

different from those of one certified under the standards of the

College of Teachers.

HON. MR. BRUMMET : In certain

categories the independent schools must have qualified teachers who

meet all of the requirements of the college. The college can issue

letters of permission in the public school system. The inspector of

schools can issue letters of permission for the teachers in the system.

There are the standards there, and as you know, the schools run

anywhere from funded to non-funded. The inspector has, according to

some people, some awesome powers in being able to determine whether or

not that person may teach in the independent schools. I think I

indicated before that there may be a situation where a person has a

double master's degree in science, and the inspector may assess that

and follow up to see if that person can in fact teach. The inspector

has those rights. But we want qualified people, and most of the

independent schools, since they're dependent upon fees and upon

continued support, also want qualified teachers.

MS. A. HAGEN :

Could the minister confirm for us whether schools that are not funded

are required to have teachers certified under this

section of the bill?

HON. MR. BRUMMET :

I believe that in the schedule, in the requirements, it says that in

some of those schools they have to have 80 percent qualified or

certified teachers.

MS. A. HAGEN : To have perhaps a

more clear and concrete answer, are there schools that will now be

registered with the ministry with ten or more students where there is

any less requirement than 80 percent certified teachers?

HON. MR. BRUMMET :

The requirement for all independent schools to register and be

accountable to us is a brand-new section, so I can't say how many there

are out there that haven't had to register and don't get any funding

and haven't been involved.

[12:45]

MS. A. HAGEN :

I'm talking of the requirement of t