2011 Legislative Session: Third Session, 39th Parliament

HANSARD

The following electronic version is for informational purposes only.

The printed version remains the official version.

official report of

Debates of the Legislative Assembly

(hansard)

Tuesday, May 17, 2011

Afternoon Sitting

Volume 22, Number 4

CONTENTS

Page

Routine Business

Introductions by Members

Statements

Dorothy Parvaz

D. Donaldson

Introductions by Members

Statements

International Day Against Homophobia

S. Chandra Herbert

Introductions by Members

Tabling Documents

Elections B.C., service plan, 2011-12

Introduction and First Reading of Bills

Bill 12 — Police (Independent Investigations Office) Amendment Act, 2011

Hon. S. Bond

Statements (Standing Order 25B)

Role of Prince Rupert in Asia-Pacific gateway

G. Coons

International Day Against Homophobia

M. Stilwell

Queen Alexandra Elementary School

J. Kwan

Girl Guides' Camp Olave on Sunshine Coast

L. Reid

Cystic fibrosis awareness and fundraising walk

S. Simpson

National Road Safety Week and Sea to Sky Highway improvements

J. McIntyre

Oral Questions

Impact of log export policy on forest industry

N. Macdonald

Hon. S. Thomson

B. Routley

D. Routley

Government policies on foreign trade zones

G. Gentner

Hon. B. Lekstrom

Potential use of Delta lands for foreign trade zone

V. Huntington

Hon. B. Lekstrom

Services for developmentally disabled persons

K. Corrigan

Hon. H. Bloy

N. Simons

M. Farnworth

Orders of the Day

Committee of Supply

Estimates: Ministry of Education (continued)

R. Austin

Hon. G. Abbott

C. Trevena

S. Fraser

L. Popham

G. Gentner

S. Simpson

M. Elmore

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room

Committee of Supply

Estimates: Ministry of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations (continued)

Hon. S. Thomson

N. Macdonald

S. Chandra Herbert

B. Routley

B. Simpson

M. Sather

C. Trevena

Estimates: Other Appropriations

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TUESDAY, MAY 17, 2011

The House met at 1:33 p.m.

[Mr. Speaker in the chair.]

Routine Business

Introductions by Members

C. James: I have visiting me today in the gallery a longtime friend, a former colleague, a former educator and school principal in the Victoria school district Although he is retired now, he has continued his work, his passion for education for children and for mathematics. He's an author of many books and provides workshops. Would the House please welcome Trevor Calkins.

D. Hayer: Joining us in the gallery are six exceptional students from Kwantlen Park Secondary School in Surrey. These students are Peter Singh, Jasmin Ring, Pardeep Birak, Oscar Liang, Laura Wilkinson and Amie Johnson. They are accompanied by teacher Stuart Wohlgemuth. They are the touring the Legislature and Victoria. They are the finalists and the winners in the Surrey Rotary Club's citizenship development program.

Each of them had to write a short speech about what being a Canadian citizen means to them. This competition and trip is sponsored by the Rotary Club of Surrey. I have welcomed them for the last ten years. They'll tour, and they'll get a chance to meet with MLAs and ministers on how the parliament works.

They are also joined here by the Rotary Club of Surrey's supervisor, past president John Campbell, and my wife, Isabelle Martinez Hayer.

Would the House please make them very welcome, these exceptional students and these teachers and Rotary volunteers.

Statements

DOROTHY PARVAZ

D. Donaldson: Earlier this month was World Press Freedom Day, which reminds us of reporter Dorothy Parvaz, a Canadian citizen, North Van resident, former UBC grad who has disappeared, apparently being held by Iranian authorities after being deported from Syria for covering pro-democracy events.

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Would both sides of the House please join in demonstrating support for Ms. Parvaz and her family in North Vancouver and express our hopes for a speedy and successful resolution to her detention.

Introductions by Members

Hon. M. de Jong: Dr. Peter Froese is here. He visits from Abbotsford. He is attending the chamber today in his capacity as a representative of the Federation of Independent School Associations, which is appropriate because Dr. Froese has spent over 30 years in public and independent school education, most recently as the superintendent of MEI schools in Abbotsford.

He's visiting today with Mr. Fred Herfst, who is the current executive director of the Federation of Independent School Associations. He will be retiring in June after 25 years of distinguished service, and Peter will be assuming the position of executive director. I hope all members will make Peter feel very welcome.

C. Trevena: I think most people in the House are aware that May is Cystic Fibrosis Awareness Month. To mark the month, I'd hope the House will make welcome a number of people in the gallery. Chris and Bill Black have been very involved in the fight against cystic fibrosis. Their daughter Kim, as many of the members of the House may be aware, starred, I would say, in a documentary about cystic fibrosis. Her story was told in a recent documentary.

Also in the gallery are Wendy and Gerry Underhill, whose 40-year-old son recently had a lung transplant in Toronto. Also joining them is Joanne Wallis. I hope that the House will make them all very welcome.

Also in the precincts, if not in the gallery at the moment, are 45 students from Pinecrest Elementary in Campbell River. They're accompanied by their teacher Lisa Storrie and a number of parents. I have to attest that these are a very engaged group of young people who ask many very interesting questions about the parliamentary process. I hope that we prove ourselves to be worthy of their scrutiny and that the House will make them welcome.

J. Thornthwaite: I'd like to welcome to the House my CA, chief executive officer of my office and chief of staff Carol Dawson, who is also a very good friend of mine way back from high school in the olden days. I wish everybody….

Interjection.

J. Thornthwaite: Yes, that old.

I'd like to wish her very well and to thank her very much for joining us.

M. Elmore: I'm very pleased to be introducing 30 grade 5 students joining us today from the Corpus Christi Elementary School. They're sitting here above me, and they're accompanied by their grade 5 teacher Olympia Monteiro; a student assistant, Fiona Farquharson; the chairperson of the parish education committee, Cedric

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Vaz; parents Yolanda Malari, Patrick Lee, Steve Chan, Milada Delatorrey and Melchior Pat; as well as the teacher, Anthony Chung. They're enjoying their visit and going to be visiting the museum. I'd please ask everybody to make them feel very welcome.

Hon. S. Bond: It is my privilege today to introduce a number of distinguished guests who are joining us here in the precinct. We're very delighted to be joined by Justice Thomas Braidwood, QC. He has served at the highest levels of B.C.'s judiciary and has led vital commissions related to policing issues in our province. I'm also very pleased to welcome Justice Braidwood's wife, Phyllis.

In addition, we have Peter Hourihan, commanding officer of the RCMP's E division and the deputy commissioner. We have RCMP Supt. Tonia Enger, president of the B.C. Association of Chiefs of Police; Chief Const. Jim Chu of the Vancouver police department; Tom Stamatakis, president of the B.C. Police Association; and Clayton Pecknold, the assistant deputy minister of policing and the security programs branch.

I am confident that all members of the House will want to make this very distinguished group of guests welcome to the precinct today.

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K. Conroy: It gives me a great deal of pleasure to introduce Fiona Martin. Fiona is a teacher at Stanley Humphries senior secondary in Castlegar, where she teaches in the French immersion department. She was chosen to participate in the teachers institute this week.

I know she's a really great teacher, as in the past she's had the delightful experience of educating our youngest son as well as, currently, my nieces. They all shared stories with me about her that I'll share with her but that I won't share in the chamber today. Please join me in making her welcome.

Hon. S. Thomson: I'd like the House to make welcome three guests in the Legislature today from Weyerhaeuser Canada. I had the opportunity to meet with them earlier today and discuss their B.C. and Canadian operations — Fred Dzida, who's director of Canadian Timberlands; Wayne Roznowsky, who is their manager of public affairs for Canada; and Rob Marshall, who is their manager of Princeton Timberlands. Would the House please make them welcome.

Statements

INTERNATIONAL DAY

AGAINST HOMOPHOBIA

S. Chandra Herbert: I rise today to acknowledge International Day Against Homophobia, and I ask the House to join me in marking today by working to end homophobia in your own communities and by celebrating the great diversity of our province.

Introductions by Members

D. Barnett: I'd like the House today to welcome my constituency assistant Bonnie Gavin. Bonnie is the daughter of the past MLA for the Cariboo for a long time and, I believe, the longest-serving Transportation Minister in the province of British Columbia, who the Alex Fraser Bridge is named after. Would the House please welcome Bonnie.

Tabling Documents

Mr. Speaker: Hon. Members, I have the honour to present the Elections B.C. Service Plan for 2011-2012.

Introduction and

First Reading of Bills

Bill 12 — Police (Independent

Investigations Office)

Amendment Act, 2011

Hon. S. Bond presented a message from His Honour the Administrator: a bill intituled Police (Independent Investigations Office) Amendment Act, 2011.

Hon. S. Bond: I move that the bill be introduced and read a first time now.

Motion approved.

Hon. S. Bond: I am pleased to introduce the Police (Independent Investigations Office) Amendment Act. This bill will create an independent investigations office which will fulfil a central recommendation of the Braidwood Commission and strengthen public confidence in police.

The independent investigations office will investigate serious incidents involving both the municipal police and the RCMP. Specifically, it will be led by a civilian who has never served as a police officer.

It will conduct criminal investigations into police-related incidents involving death or serious harm and will be able to do investigations involving other serious incidents. It will be able to investigate members of all B.C. police agencies, including independent municipal departments and the RCMP. It will have its powers entrenched in this legislation. It will report, as recommended, to the Attorney General.

B.C.'s office will invest a broader range of serious police-involved incidents than Ontario's model and be more independent than Alberta's, reporting to the

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Attorney General rather than the minister responsible for policing.

In addition, the proposed legislation will allow the office's civilian director to appoint a civilian monitor. The monitor will be free to raise concerns to the director about the integrity of an investigation and submit a final report within 30 days after the investigation is completed.

I am very proud to say that we have worked very hard over the past year to turn this important recommendation of Justice Braidwood into the legislation I am introducing today. I believe it sets a new standard for civilian-led police investigation and accountability.

Finally, this bill also includes some minor amendments to provide clarification and improvements to some of the other sections of the Police Act.

Mr. Speaker, I move that the bill be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

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Bill 12, Police (Independent Investigations Office) Amendment Act, 2011, introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

Statements

(Standing Order 25B)

ROLE OF PRINCE RUPERT IN

ASIA-PACIFIC GATEWAY

G. Coons: A century after it was incorporated and Charles Hayes dreamt of the great port city, Prince Rupert has strongly embodied itself on the international stage. On April 8 one of COSCO Canada's container ships, the MV COSCO Prince Rupert with 8500 TEU capacity, berthed in its namesake.

As one of the deepest ice-free year-round harbours in the world with a 58-hour-shorter transportation time, it's no wonder that many have seen its great potential. As part of the Asia-Pacific gateway and corridor the efficiency and reliability of this port has helped to improve Canada's trade relations with Asia and has potential to open up a larger market for Canadian-made value-added products. Some locally generated exports have included waste paper, scrap steel and a Prince Rupert specialty, chilled rather than frozen seafood.

Prince Rupert's resiliency has demonstrated that even when faced with difficult times, when given support, the community can achieve great things. Those who have worked so hard to support an initiative that benefits the entire province of B.C. hope to see the support reciprocated with regards to other services and economic initiatives that share this waterway.

Prince Rupert's container terminal is the first dedicated intermodal container terminal in North America with the design capacity to move 500,000 TEUs per year.

The northern decade is in its infancy, poised to grow exponentially. The economic, natural and human potential of the north will soon be unleashed, greatly impacting the economy and culture.

The Northern Mayors and Regional District Chairs Roundtable on Transportation initiated several key recommendations for the minister responsible, with a forward-looking vision to unlock the full potential of the northern gateway.

Without effective and fully integrated transportation systems involving port, rail, road, air and affordable ferry, the movement of goods, commodities and people will be hindered not only by bottlenecks, low capacity and disparity but by the lack of foresight to meet a changing world.

INTERNATIONAL DAY

AGAINST HOMOPHOBIA

M. Stilwell: Today is International Day Against Homophobia, a day dedicated to promoting a prejudice-free world that has respect for everyone regardless of their sexual orientation. May 17 is symbolic as it was the day in 1992 when homosexuality was officially removed from the list of mental illnesses of the World Health Organization, ending over a century of homophobia and ignorance in the medical field.

Gay and lesbian individuals have been discriminated against like few minority groups. However, major advances have been made in the courts and by forward-thinking governments and their citizens. Today homosexual people are stepping out of the shadows.

However, despite these breakthroughs homophobia continues to be a problem. Homophobia today exists insidiously, propagated by public figures and groups subtly criticizing homosexuality as a choice or as a disease to be corrected or cured. These individuals and groups espouse antiquated ideas and spread hate about these amazing members of our community. The homophobic messages promoted make it difficult for many gay and lesbian individuals to live their sexual orientation, as they are certainly entitled to do.

Notwithstanding, today is not meant to solely focus on hate and prejudice. International Day Against Homophobia is a tremendous opportunity to highlight the positive aspects of individuals and celebrate the contribution of the gay and lesbian community to our society.

Hon. Speaker, I encourage this assembly to stand with me against homophobia.

QUEEN ALEXANDRA ELEMENTARY SCHOol

J. Kwan: Last Friday morning I watched a beautiful play, Acceptance: I Am Who I Am . It was written

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and performed by grades 6 and 7 students of Queen Alexandra Elementary School.

The play was based on their own experiences and told the story of the struggle between fitting in, accepting and showing their own unique selves. At Queen Alexandra, or QA, children have the chance to learn far more than the three Rs of reading, writing and 'rithmetic. They learn to think independently. They learn to collaborate. Their talent is showcased with the help of artists in residence.

QA's school plan recognizes that social and emotional health is key to the academic success of students and actively integrates curriculum that teaches antiracism, anti-bullying and peaceful problem-solving.

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Last summer when parents, students, educators and members of the QA community found out that their school was slated for potential closure, they organized, rallied and made plans to save their school. The QA community developed a plan to further enhance the existing strengths of QA and presented their vision to the school board. The innovative plan formalizes QA as a fine arts, multicultural, integrated-learning-for-youth school.

This vision builds on the programs and community partnerships already in place, such as KidSafe, the UBC Learning Exchange, Cedar Cottage Neighbourhood House and Sarah McLachlan music outreach. The school strives to nurture the whole child to develop into a successful global citizen.

Through project-based learning, children have the chance to develop a wide range of skills such as critical thinking, problem-solving, collaboration and communication, as well as to foster students' self-expression, confidence and respect for diversity.

The school teaches acceptance and respect and incorporates the histories of the multicultural communities into the students' learning experience. Recently the SFU community engagement program has been in discussions about developing a partnership with QA, inviting all others to join in to be part of this wonderful school with over 100 years of history.

GIRL GUIDES' CAMP OLAVE

ON SUNSHINE COAST

L. Reid: I rise today to celebrate the Girl Guides of Canada's Camp Olave. Camp Olave is located at Roberts Creek on the Sunshine Coast and has served young Sparks, Brownies, Guides, Pathfinders and Rangers and their leaders for the past 80 years.

The camp was previously tax-exempt, but a municipal boundary change altered their tax status. His Worship Mayor Inkster and his council provided a grant-in-lieu of taxes owing for this tax year. I'm grateful to the council and to the countless friends of Camp Olave — including the MLA for Powell River–Sunshine Coast, who did a fabulous job — the girls and Guiders past and present who embraced safeguarding Camp Olave for future generations.

The motto for Guiding is "Be prepared." A number of wonderful women are building a Camp Olave endowment fund, and they would welcome your support. They need to be prepared should a grant-in-lieu of taxes not be available in the future.

Please make contact with the Victoria Foundation and offer your support. Guiding in Canada celebrated its 100th anniversary in 2010, and with your support, this organization will continue to offer programs of leadership for young women for generations to come.

CYSTIC FIBROSIS AWARENESS

AND FUNDRAISING WALK

S. Simpson: May is Cystic Fibrosis Month in Canada. Once again the Great Strides for cystic fibrosis fundraising walk will be happening on May 29. CF is the most common and fatal genetic disease facing young people in our country. It causes a mucus buildup by damaging the lining of the lungs and blocking enzymes from reaching the intestines to digest food.

It affects about one in 3,600 children in B.C., including my nephew Liam. Liam is 11 years old and full of life and energy, but it is a life that includes regular hospital trips for his tune-ups and his many medications.

However, in the 1960s children with CF rarely lived to attend kindergarten. Today over half live well into their 40s, but it is still not good enough. We are making progress, but we still have a long way to go.

I know how Liam's diagnosis radically changed his family's lives and their daily routines, including significant additional costs, even with government support. Across B.C. families deal with the challenges of CF every day. They face pressures that leave a terrible uncertainty for their future, an uncertainty that includes the time when these young people begin to understand the consequences of their afflictions to their own futures.

These types of pressures have too often led to family breakups, as parents find it increasingly difficult to deal with the strains and realities of CF and the fallout on other aspects of their relationships. This is what makes Cystic Fibrosis Month so important. I am hopeful Liam will live to collect his old age pension, but it will require more supports from government and individuals, including funding for medical research and increased support for CF families.

I'll be walking in the Great Strides fundraiser on May 29 and hope all members and all British Columbians will support the fight against CF. We can beat this disease. We can give our young people with CF, like Liam, back their lives. I know every member in this House would agree that nothing could be more important than giving all CF kids this opportunity. We can make it happen.

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NATIONAL ROAD SAFETY WEEK AND

SEA TO SKY HIGHWAY IMPROVEMENTS

J. McIntyre: I rise to inform the House and encourage all British Columbians to honour National Road Safety Week, May 17 to 23, 2011. Each year this week leading up to the Victoria Day long weekend kicks off the summer driving season, encouraging drivers to keep their eyes on the road and minimize driver distractions.

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At this time of year drivers are sharing the road with increased numbers of vulnerable road users — motorcyclists, cyclists and pedestrians — who all have an increased risk of death or critical injury should they be involved in a collision.

Public safety is priority number one in developing and expanding B.C.'s transportation networks. I've seen firsthand how a safety upgrade investment in a major highway can improve our ability to move passengers and goods in a safer and more efficient manner.

Residents and visitors to the Sea to Sky corridor are now enjoying enhancements made to the once notorious Highway 99 that links communities from West Van to north of Whistler. Improvements like straightening and improving sightlines, 80 kilometres of new passing lanes, reflective pavement markings, rumble strips, wider shoulders and improved pullouts have all combined to more than meet the goal of reducing accidents by 30 percent.

Prior to construction there was an average of 215 collisions per year, and since, collisions have been reduced by approximately 66 percent, head-on crashes by approximately 80 percent. Sixty-three people died from 1998 to 2007 and only one fatality in 2010. Think of the loss prevented.

There's a plaque at Tunnel Point, north of Horseshoe Bay, honouring the over 2,000 workers who laboured from 2003 to '09 to build a magnificent project on budget and on time, designed to improve public safety. Now we all have to take our cues from National Road Safety Week and drive responsibly.

Oral Questions

IMPACT OF LOG EXPORT POLICY

ON FOREST INDUSTRY

N. Macdonald: The vice-president at Teal-Jones in Surrey, Hanif Karmally, says his mill would be running three shifts. They have the market for lumber. What they don't have is access to B.C. wood. He says it is because the B.C. Liberals are shipping our logs overseas.

B.C. logs should create jobs in B.C. That's something almost everyone in this province agrees on. So can the Minister of Forests tell us why he's shipping thousands of jobs to China instead of ensuring that logs stay in British Columbia to create jobs for British Columbia families?

Hon. S. Thomson: I appreciate the opportunity to comment on this very important policy. First, to correct the member opposite, the log export policy in British Columbia is one that creates jobs in British Columbia.

Since 2009 we've opened 27 new mills — 1,600 new jobs here in British Columbia. That equates to over 6,000 additional jobs, building jobs for families in forest-dependent communities across the province.

I do want to say that we have noticed the increasing number of log exports. The former Minister of Forests and myself agree that we would much rather export lumber than logs, and we're going to continue to look at the policy. It does need to be a balanced policy. We are discussing it with industry. We are reviewing it.

Most importantly, we need to recognize that the current policy does create jobs here in British Columbia. It needs to be balanced, and we're going to continue to work towards that balance.

Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental.

N. Macdonald: There are 30,000 less jobs under the B.C. Liberals than there were under any previous government. They have lost jobs. More than 30 mills shut down on the coast under the B.C. Liberals. These were good family-supporting jobs.

Meanwhile in China 80 mills have sprung up. The logs are coming from British Columbia and going through Chinese mills. This is a direct result of B.C. Liberal forest policy. Tens of thousands of jobs lost, mills shut down, government revenue lost. So instead of feeding B.C. families, British Columbia's forests are feeding Chinese mills.

The question is: does the minister disagree with the vast majority of British Columbians who make the statement that this does not make sense? B.C. logs should be for B.C. jobs.

Hon. S. Thomson: We have had a log export policy in British Columbia since 1912. It's been provided for in the Forest Act and has continued all the way through the process. It's been managed. Logs do not leave British Columbia without a surplus test applied to them. If they're required for the domestic industry, they're made available to domestic industry.

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There's a timber export advisory committee that manages that process, oversees that process. That advisory committee includes provincial and federal government, independent mill operators, forest industry representatives, workers in this industry. They manage that process.

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As I said, this is a balanced policy. This is one that is creating jobs. A log export policy is part of the equation that ensures we have viability in our mills, viability in our industry in the province. It is one part of the equation that does that. It's one that, as I said, is creating good, well-paying jobs in forest-dependent communities in this province. That's one that is supporting families in those communities.

We will continue to review the policy. As I said, I have noted the increase. We are looking at it. We are discussing it with industry, and I will be meeting with TEAC.

Mr. Speaker: The member has a further supplemental.

N. Macdonald: This is unprecedented. Forty percent of the wood cut on the coast was sent offshore — 40 percent. Teal-Jones is running two shifts and not even two shifts full-time. They could be running three shifts full-time. We've heard minister after minister say that it's because of markets, but the fact is that Teal-Jones has a market. What they don't have is fibre.

So the question is: why are B.C. logs being used to create jobs in China when our mills are sitting idle?

Hon. S. Thomson: As I've pointed out, a log export policy, a balanced one, is part of the equation that ensures we have viability in our forest industry. It's been a key part of the equation.

Perhaps the member opposite would like to review a statement by the former leader of the NDP, the member for Victoria–Beacon Hill, who said: "I've been clear that you can't ban raw log exports. There are communities at certain times when log exports have kept workers going and kept communities going." That's the case then; that's the case now.

B. Routley: I worked in the forest industry on the coast of British Columbia for more than 30 years, and I can say that in all that time I've never seen a government decide it was okay to ship 40 percent of the B.C. coastal jobs overseas. Even going back to the days of W.A.C. Bennett, B.C. governments believed that B.C. logs should create B.C. jobs.

What does this Minister of Forests have to say to B.C. families about signing off on the export of their jobs?

Hon. S. Thomson: As I pointed out and I made clear, a log export policy is part of creating jobs in British Columbia. The log export policy allows mills and allows companies to harvest the total profile of the stand in the areas that they're logging. That means that they can harvest under the current economic conditions. This is what has kept mills operating, kept mills going, kept mills employing people in our communities. So it's part of the policy. It's part of what makes a healthy industry.

As I said earlier, I've noticed the increase. We are continuing to discuss that with industry, and we'll continue to meet with TEAC to ensure that the policy is managed in a balanced way.

Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental.

B. Routley: This Liberal government has signed off on the export of 40 percent of this year's coastal harvest as being — get this — surplus to the manufacturing needs of British Columbia. At a time when mills are shut down up and down the coast of British Columbia, this government says that 40 percent of the logs are surplus. This is simply outrageous. This is a 300 percent increase in the export of raw logs from the province of British Columbia.

Will this minister finally admit that the log export approval system in the province of British Columbia is broken and that it's not working in the interests of B.C. forest families?

[1405]

Hon. S. Thomson: Mr. Speaker, 27 mills opened and reopened since 2009; 1,600 jobs in those communities where those mills are operating; ten mills operating today simply because of the work that's been done by the former minister — and continues to do — in building the market in China. We're building capacity for our industry. This is what is helping the industry through this very, very significant economic challenge that the industry is facing.

As I said, we're going to continue to make sure that the policy is balanced. As I said, the logs do not leave this province without having the surplus test applied to them.

The more important thing, I think, to the members opposite: the job export policy that the industry is most concerned about is the members' opposite support for going back to the job-killing PST. The HST is a $140 million benefit to the forest industry of British Columbia.

D. Routley: Harmac pulp mill was rescued from the Pope and Talbot bankruptcy by the strength and courage of its workers. The Pope and Talbot sawmill next door was shut down. Now a chain-link fence separates those two mills. Across that fence are mountains of raw logs about to be exported to China. On the other side of the fence is the Harmac pulp mill, which is frequently curtailed because of a lack of fibre. Their problem is that they can't get fibre.

Well, it's more than a chain-link fence that separates those jobs from that fibre. It's failed Liberal policies that separate those workers from their jobs. Those logs are deemed to be surplus to need, and yet the mill next door is curtailed. Can the minister please speak to those families — tell them what he thinks about the export of their jobs?

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Hon. S. Thomson: As I mentioned, 27 mills reopened or opened since 2009 — 1,600 jobs. Building diversity in our markets and capacity in markets is what has helped this industry through a very, very difficult economic circumstance. That is what has kept people working in our communities.

As I mentioned, again, I've noticed the increase in the volume of logs being exported. We are looking at that. It's important that we do. It's important that we make sure that the system and the process is balanced.

As I said, and the former minister said as well, we would much rather prefer exporting lumber. We're continuing to build markets for lumber in those other markets. We will continue to do so, and we'll continue to work to make sure that our policy is balanced. But very clearly, the current log export policy is creating jobs and economic opportunity in our communities.

Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental.

D. Routley: Well, provincewide they lost — what? — 90 mills? He claims 30? Negative 60 is the outcome? On the coast here we've seen 30 mills shut down. We've seen 30 mills and thousands of jobs lost. This minister should accept that fact and do his job.

He needs to do like the workers of Harmac: roll up his sleeves and work for the province. Will the minister commit today to enact policies that will protect those jobs at Harmac…

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members.

D. Routley: …protect those families, stop the export of those logs and support the economy of British Columbia?

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members. Members. Let's listen to the question and then listen to the answer.

[1410]

Hon. S. Thomson: Jobs that are being created with the current policy, the current development of the markets, in other markets…. We're moving away from the reliance on U.S. markets. That's what's creating opportunities for our industry.

For example, the Coast Tsimshian Resources in the northwest — 200 jobs built on the basis of a China market which includes the export of logs. That's 200 jobs and capacity in a First Nations community in the northwest. That's where we're focused. That's how we're helping build the economy of British Columbia.

GOVERNMENT POLICIES ON

FOREIGN TRADE ZONES

G. Gentner: John Ries from the Sauder school of economics has stated that foreign trade zones are simply a race to the bottom. With foreign trade zones, government has to provide subsidies and loosen environmental labour standards. It is unclear what the benefits are to British Columbians, but it is clear that foreign trade zones are indicators of a failed economic policy.

For the record, can the Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure explain what the benefits of pushing through a foreign trade zone would be for the average British Columbian?

Hon. B. Lekstrom: Well, we have posted a request for proposals in February for an independent research and analysis of foreign trade zones. I'm looking forward to receiving that. But my knowledge of foreign trade zones — and I'm sure the member has done his research — is that this is not about a tax-exempt status for workers losing their jobs and so on.

This is about the ability that's used around the world in foreign trade zones where commodities can be brought forward, products. They can be value-added. If they remain in the country — and in this case, it would be Canada — the full taxation statutes would apply. If they are then redistributed to other countries, they wouldn't.

I'm looking forward to the information that's brought forward, and we'll read it thoroughly, as I'm sure the member will do as well.

Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental.

G. Gentner: It's interesting. The minister seems to know what a foreign trade zone is, and yet they're still asking for a request for proposal to do a research study on it.

If those are the benefits, then why are the B.C. Liberals choosing to sneak this policy through, just like they did with the HST? Hon. Speaker, once a sneak, always a sneak.

Yesterday on Global the Minister of Jobs, Tourism and Innovation stated that the Premier asked him to have a hard look at the foreign trade zone. Now, can the minister explain to the House how the Premier can ask the government to initiate a foreign trade zone when the request for a proposal was already underway before she had even won the leadership bid?

It doesn't add up. The good old boys are back at it again — aren't they, Mr. Speaker?

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members.

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G. Gentner: The ministers will have their foreign trade zone blueprint in their hands this summer with no public consultation. It's a done deal. To the minister: if this is such a good deal for British Columbians, why so much secrecy?

Hon. B. Lekstrom: Through to the member: probably some information that may change your mind on the question you've just asked, actually. The RFP is a public document posted on the Internet. I don't know how secret that could possibly be if it's available to the world for their consideration. I encourage the member to look at that.

Foreign trade zones — as well, in your earlier comments — are not a new concept. How would I know what they are? I've actually done some research, hon. Member, and I encourage you to do the same.

POTENTIAL USE OF DELTA LANDS

FOR FOREIGN TRADE ZONE

V. Huntington: Well, my interest in free trade zones is their location, and in estimates we were told that it wouldn't necessarily be in Delta. It might be in Prince Rupert or Prince George or at the Vancouver Airport.

[1415]

But I have to say…. I hope the minister forgives me for being suspicious when the former, former Minister of Transportation takes B.C. Rail to Dubai with him, when Global Container Terminals at Deltaport is owned in Dubai, when Global Container chairs the steering committee advocating free trade zones in B.C., when B.C. Rail has stockpiled more land than it requires for rail expansion and when a land consolidation group is secretly optioning agricultural land adjacent to the B.C. holdings in Delta.

Will the minister tell me whether this government is contemplating a free trade zone on the agricultural lands in Delta?

Hon. B. Lekstrom: The issue of foreign trade zones — as I said, I'm looking forward to receiving a document that will outline. This is not a new concept used around the world. There is no determination whatsoever, Member, that any determinations have been made, whether you're suspicious or not.

I have had the opportunity to meet with you on numerous occasions. There is no determination, locations of any such, and no decision has been made on that. I think that would be far too premature.

As I indicated, there was an RFP put forward through the Internet, a public document. Again, I want to reiterate that. I'm looking forward to the findings of that. I'm looking forward to the ability to review that document. But no, there has been no indication of any piece of property, whether it be in British Columbia or anywhere else that I know of, that has been committed to such an exercise.

Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental.

V. Huntington: I thank the minister for his response, but we've learned some hard lessons in Delta, and when this government secretly gets this far down the road in any planning, it's usually a done deal.

A Dubai model free trade zone has nothing to do with community. The whole point of a modern free trade zone is to protect business from community. This isn't about jobs. It's about greed. It's about flipping land in Delta, and it's about the destruction of the finest agricultural land in Canada.

I'm asking this minister: if this feasibility study recommends free trade zones in B.C., will the minister tell us today that his government will not remove land from the ALR to create an industrial wasteland in Delta?

Hon. B. Lekstrom: Recognizing your concerns and suspicions, I do want to point out they're foreign trade zones, not free trade zones, something that we're looking at.

I don't want to predetermine what the report will say. I'm looking forward to reading it, seeing what it has. Foreign trade zones do, though, when you look around the world, have the opportunity to create jobs.

There is a lot of speculation in your question, a lot of speculation that I think is unfounded, to be honest with you, Member.

I'm looking forward, as I said. A foreign trade zone concept is not new in the world that we live in. It is a concept that we have put out an RFP for. We have commissioned a report that will be brought back. I'm looking forward to that.

I am all for continuing to enhance our gateway to the Asia-Pacific. It is a vitally important part of our economy. If we have the ability to create jobs for British Columbians and their families and their children growing up here, I'm going to do everything I can to ensure that happens.

SERVICES FOR

DEVELOPMENTALLY DISABLED PERSONS

K. Corrigan: The Minister of Social Development assured this House that all individuals with developmental disabilities have a plan ready for them when they come into Community Living B.C. My question to the minister: is there funding in CLBC available to implement these plans?

Hon. H. Bloy: Children transitioning into adulthood — Community Living B.C. is committed to assisting

[ Page 7101 ]

these individuals. They are meeting with the individuals before they're 19 when they're known to them, and they're drawing a plan for them so that they will be able to contribute to the community.

[1420]

Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental.

K. Corrigan: Dave and Kathy Martin's son Jonathan has a dual diagnosis of Down syndrome and autism, and he is non-verbal. A CLBC facilitator prepared a report outlining his needs. Let me quote from the report: "Jonathan requires significant supports in virtually all areas of personal care needs." Another quote: "There is a grave concern that Jonathan's independence and acquired skill would quickly decline after he finishes high school and if a day program is not available."

Yet after issuing this report, which included recommendations for the kind of round-the-clock care he should receive, CLBC informed the Martin family that "all available funding for day program, one-on-one life skill support and respite is currently committed" — meaning that Jonathan won't get a single service that he desperately needs.

Again to the minister: what's the point of making a plan for clients of CLBC if the B.C. Liberals have no intention of giving vulnerable individuals like Jonathan the care they need?

Hon. H. Bloy: If I could ask the member across the way to send me the information on this, I'd be prepared to talk to her about it. But I believe it's important for Community Living B.C. to make a plan for every individual that's coming into the system. Community Living B.C. is committed to first helping those with health and safety issues and, next, those individuals that do not have any services provided.

N. Simons: The Minister of Social Development says that it's important to have plans in place for people transitioning from young adulthood to adulthood or from childhood to young adulthood. What is the point of having these plans if there's absolutely nothing available to these struggling families to provide the supports for their children with disabilities?

Hon. H. Bloy: I believe it's important to draw a plan for every individual. Every young person in this country, as they're growing up and going through high school, starts to make plans for life, and I think it's important that they all have an opportunity. Community Living B.C. is committed to helping these individuals formulate a plan for their life.

Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental.

N. Simons: I find that answer to be entirely insufficient. It's like saying that you can be fed with a list of ingredients, and what you really need is the actual program in place for these young families.

We're hearing from families across the province, from Prince George to Terrace to Abbotsford, and these families are all saying the same thing. They're saying that there isn't any funding available to provide the necessary supports to keep their young families, their young children or adult children, with the programs that they need to be included in the community — the basic, fundamental responsibility of CLBC.

Will the minister do something or tell the people of this province that he will be advocating for the needs of these families? Will he do what's necessary to relieve the crisis that currently exists in British Columbia?

Hon. H. Bloy: Again, I want to say to the member that I believe it's important that every individual has a plan. I want to say that it's important, and I want to say that I am a strong advocate on behalf of these individuals. I've been in this position, and there are some challenges there. But there are so many opportunities for these individuals, and I have all the faith in the work that Community Living B.C. is doing to provide assistance to each individual.

M. Farnworth: The families of these kids are the ones who are committed. They're the ones who are committed to looking after them every single day, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year. What they want is some commitment from this government that they'll be there to support them.

[1425]

The minister talks about plans and the need to have plans — absolutely, Minister. But what you require to make those plans happen, what those families need, is for those plans to have funds. Minister, the caseload over the last ten years has grown by 59 percent. Funding has not kept pace. What's your message to those families who have the plans but the government isn't prepared to fund them?

Hon. H. Bloy: I'll repeat again that I'm in favour of plans, and plans are put in place. There are some concerns out there, but we are helping those most in need with safety and health issues and, secondly, people that are not receiving any services at the present time. We need the plan to be able to work with them in the future.

I can tell all members of this House that we have increased the budget year after year, services year after year, since we started Community Living British Columbia. It was this government that started Community Living British Columbia with partners, and it's now recognized around the world for the services that it provides.

[ Page 7102 ]

Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental.

M. Farnworth: It's families of kids with disabilities in this province who are looking to this government to live up to the promise of CLBC, hon. Speaker. The minister has failed to answer the basic question. Families are putting together plans; CLBC is telling them the funds aren't there in place.

What is the message of this government to those families who are desperately seeking respite care, help and support while they look after their kids who have disabilities every single day of the year, who this government is turning its back on?

Hon. H. Bloy: I want to reassure the members and to say again that we have increased the budget year after year. We have increased services year after year. Community Living B.C. has looked at innovative ways to provide services year after year. We're working for every individual in this province with developmental disabilities.

[End of question period.]

B. Bennett: I seek leave to make an introduction.

Mr. Speaker: Proceed.

Introductions by Members

B. Bennett: It's my pleasure to introduce my two constituency assistants, Jennifer Osmar and Brenda Bannister, who raced here from the airport so that they could watch question period — which proves conclusively that somebody does care. Please help me make them welcome.

Hon. H. Bloy: I ask leave to make an introduction.

Mr. Speaker: Proceed.

Hon. H. Bloy: I'd like to introduce a constituent of my riding, Mr. Fred Herfst. He's the executive director of the Federation of Independent School Associations in British Columbia.

R. Sultan: I seek leave to make an introduction.

Mr. Speaker: Proceed.

R. Sultan: In the galleries today we have the brains behind West Vancouver–Capilano, my CA Terry Oaken. Would the House please make her welcome.

N. Macdonald: I'd like the House to join me in welcoming Darryl Walker, who is head of the B.C. Government Employees Union. Please make him welcome.

Orders of the Day

Hon. R. Coleman: In this House this afternoon we'll be continuing the estimates of the Ministry of Education. In Committee A we'll be doing the estimates of the Ministry of Forests, Lands and Natural Resources Operations.

[1430]

Committee of Supply

ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF EDUCATION

(continued)

The House in Committee of Supply (Section B); L. Reid in the chair.

The committee met at 2:34 p.m.

On Vote 22: ministry operations, $5,241,877,000 (continued).

R. Austin: I'm going to lead off this afternoon with something that the minister finished with just prior to lunch. The minister, in the answer to one of his questions, moved into talking about personalized learning. So I'm going to start with a few questions around personalized learning. Just for the purpose of giving some context to the questions, I'd like to spend a couple of minutes to create that context.

[1435]

Late last year in an address — I believe it was in October of 2010 — the former Premier, Gordon Campbell, announced that the government would be investing $9.6 million towards personalized early learning. The goal was to address the approximately 20 percent of children completing grade 4 who are not reading, writing or sufficient in numeracy at that grade level.

I think, in fairness, $9.6 million equates to $1,618 per school, or $11 per student per year over five years. Now, the purpose of this investment, as outlined by Premier Campbell, was threefold: to expand the StrongStart B.C. network, which the minister has spoken to…. By the way, I think StrongStart is a very good thing, but we should be mindful of the fact that it does require a parent to be present, and seeing as the majority of British Columbia families are two-parent working families, it doesn't address the needs of all of those kids in the majority of families whose parent is not able to attend a StrongStart.

Anyway, the purpose of this investment was to expand StrongStart, to do early childhood learning assessments, which the minister spoke to before lunch, and also to address reading, writing and math at grade level.

So my question is this: will the ministry be meeting the personalized learning commitments that were outlined in last fall's television address?

[ Page 7103 ]

Hon. G. Abbott: The short answer would be yes. But based on the presumption that the critic would like more, I would note, first of all, that on StrongStarts, we are going to be expanding the number of StrongStart centres. I should note, just for certainty and clarity, that it doesn't have to be a parent that accompanies a child to StrongStart. It could be an aunt, an uncle, a grandparent, a caregiver, a guardian. There are many that can accompany a child there. It doesn't necessarily have to be the parents.

In terms of the other pieces that were articulated around testing and remediation and so on, the answer is yes. Those are definitely going to be part of the personalized learning agenda.

R. Austin: How is the Ministry of Education's stated commitment to personalized learning reflected in this year's budget estimates for 2011-12? Could the minister give me some specific budgetary commitments that are there to support the policy that he's just spoken to?

[1440]

Hon. G. Abbott: I thank the member for the question. In terms of how we move forward towards a personalized learning model, in some cases it may involve additional resources. In another case it may be a matter of doing things differently than we have in the past.

It is worth noting, for example, the three school districts that we talked about a little bit this morning — Revelstoke, southeast Kootenay and Fort Nelson…. The school districts in those cases are achieving the results they are with the same per-student funding as one would find in a less successful district.

So it is not always a matter of dollars being equated with system improvement. The way in which one deploys dollars is also, we believe, an important part of the introduction of personalized learning and providing attention to those matters.

It is worth noting, though, that probably the most important thing that this jurisdiction, British Columbia, has undertaken in terms of pursuit of personalized learning and in pursuit of enhancing student achievement is the introduction of all-day kindergarten.

There is an additional $58 million in the budget for all-day kindergarten for B.C. That is important. We believe the evidence shows that all-day kindergarten will be very successful in enhancing student achievement over time. That's, I think, an appropriate and substantial investment by the province in that area.

R. Austin: The service plan for this year says that the government will publish "a new and improved suite of goals, objectives, strategies and performance measures tied to personalized and 21st-century learning." What will be the process of creating these goals, objectives, strategies and performance measures, and will there be consultation with teachers and parents and students?

Hon. G. Abbott: The answer is yes, we will be working with all of the parties that the member mentioned. Our commitment is the co-construction of a new model for education. That is often referred to as personalized learning, sometimes 21st-century learning, sometimes individualized learning.

Regardless of how it is named, it is an important step forward in terms of trying to ensure the best student achievement possible for every student. It will involve an ongoing conversation between the ministry and all of our educational partners, including the School Trustees Association, the B.C. Teachers Federation, principals and vice-principals, superintendents, parent advisory councils and students themselves through Student Voice.

[1445]

All of them have important contributions to make in terms of understanding how we can improve the education system in the province, and I think it is vitally important that all of the partners have a hand in building an improved education system.

R. Austin: I'm glad to hear that the minister is confirming that this broad consultation is going to take place and is going to be a part of the process before the government decides on this new and improved suite of goals, objectives, strategies and performance measures.

Could the minister tell this House where in the budget the costs are that are going to be used to cover this kind of broad consultation before any changes are made? Obviously, there's a cost involved in doing that kind of consultation, that level of consultation, to make sure that all of the stakeholders and partners can come and participate. I'm wondering where in the ministry's budget that's going to be covered.

Hon. G. Abbott: The answer is that it is about the way that the ministry undertakes the business of governing and educational reform. The member can look to any portion of the ministry's budget, exclusive of the transfers to the school districts, as areas that we would utilize to continue the conversation. The conversation is not one that has enormous costs attached to it, but what costs there are will come from the ministry's portion of the budget.

R. Austin: Maybe I should have asked this question earlier. You know, we hear a lot, and the minister just used various terms — personalized learning, 21st-century learning. It's something that, as the critic, I've done a little bit of reading about. But I would like to ask the minister to perhaps spend a couple of minutes defining, on the public record, what he believes 21st-century learning is all about.

[ Page 7104 ]

You speak to one school district, and they have this idea. You speak to another school district, and their

interpretation of the material is something different. I'm wondering, and I think it's probably good for the minister to put it on the public record: what does the Minister of Education believe is his vision or the vision of the Liberal government in terms of the whole agenda around 21st-century learning?

Hon. G. Abbott: I appreciate the member asking the question. There are many who have written on the subject of personalized learning. One of the educators and authors who I'm particularly appreciative of is Sir Ken Robinson. The member may be familiar with his book The Element , which I think lays out a number of the building blocks of personalized learning.

For me, as I look at the possibilities for personalized learning, it is really looking, first of all, at the student as an individual and identifying very early in the life of that individual, first of all, any barriers that may exist to learning in that individual. That goes to the point we talked about earlier — attempting, as a system, in the very early years, possibly even pre-kindergarten, to pick up some physical disabilities which may be barriers to learning. Those may be in the area of hearing and sight and so on. That's an area where we've added some incremental testing to try to pick those pieces up.

It is also important at K — or grade 1, hopefully, at the latest — to pick up less obvious barriers to learning to ensure that, for example, if a child is troubled by dyslexia or some other barrier to learning, that it's identified early, that the school and the school system understand that barrier and that a plan for remediation of the shortfall in learning that has occurred is remediated by, hopefully, a focused attention on reading, writing or numeracy, if that's the challenge that the child faces.

[1450]

I guess further, just ensuring, first of all, in the model that in that kindergarten to grade 4 period, when we do have such a spectacular opportunity to remediate shortfalls in learning, we identify them, we remediate them and try to get them working optimally by grade 3.

That doesn't mean that every child is performing at genius level by grade 3 or grade 4. It means that they are performing to their optimal ability. I've referenced the three school districts earlier that have achieved that. That's something that we should be enormously proud of and that those school districts should be enormously proud of.

So in my conception, at least, of personalized learning, it will be a matter of understanding what it is that those school districts are doing with such good effect, trying to draw from the success stories, best practices that could be produced in the system and then making those best practices generalized practices across the system so that if we have something that is working in at least three school districts, it is quite possible that they could work in 60 school districts.

If we turn that around, I think it would produce enormous benefits, particularly…. Fort Nelson, with a very high aboriginal student participation rate…. To have the results that they have has got to say some very important things about the future of education in British Columbia. That one is particularly interesting. I'm particularly looking forward to learning more about that over time — the roots of that success.

But if we can get students performing to their optimal level by grade 4, then after that, it's moving from, as they say, learning to read to reading to learn. Then, I think, the other area that particularly comes into play in grades 9 to 12 is in a personalized learning model, allowing students to explore their passion or interests.

We tend still, in the model of education we have, to push students sometimes into areas of learning that aren't of great interest to them. To their credit, we have a number of school districts now — in fact, many school districts now — that have put into place in grades 10, 11 and 12 programs that allow students to, for example, explore a passion about building or construction or carpentry or one of the building trades outside of the school system.

Not because it's maybe the best model, but because I'm familiar with it, in school district 83, North Okanagan-Shuswap, the school district, in partnership with Okanagan College and in partnership with a private sector organization called the Shuswap Construction Industry Professionals, has built a model where in grades 10, 11 and 12 students can get out of the school for a period of time. They go out, do building, and then they'll be back in the school to build again their foundation skills around math, around reading, around writing. That's very complementary to what they want to pursue as a passion in their lives, which is the building trades. That's just one example.

I'll close on this, because I may have given the member more than the couple of minutes that he was looking for necessarily. I can recall back…. It was probably going on ten years now, but I visited A.L. Fortune Secondary School in Enderby, in my constituency.

The administrative assistant, or school secretary, at A.L. Fortune took me aside, actually, when I visited the school and said: "It breaks my heart when I walk down the streets of Enderby and I see kids who have dropped out in grade 9 or grade 10. They're on the sidewalks. They're in the park. They're self-medicating to deal with the pain of failing. We have to find some way to reach out to those kids that we're losing in high school and try to find a way to keep them in school and find a way to have them excited and feeling positive about their educational experience."

She was exactly right. We've got to think about broadening the school system to take account of stu-

[ Page 7105 ]

dents as they come to us, not as we'd necessarily like them to be.

[1455]

There are some very good programs in terms of alternate schools around the province, and again, I think we can learn from that. But I think right through that whole band — all-day K to grade 12 — it's trying to address the students as they come to us and trying to address their interest, their passion, their element.

R. Austin: Thanks to the minister for those very interesting comments.

Can I take it, then, that the minister is looking at finding alternatives to the accepted norm in British Columbia, which is that every child should graduate with a traditional academic graduation certificate, and is perhaps looking at children, as the minister has alluded to, who simply are not that interested in the academic portions of grades 9, 10 or 11 material and are kind of switching off and therefore inevitably often dropping out of school — recognizing that that child may not like reading, writing and arithmetic but may like auto mechanics or carpentry or whatever and finding a way within our school system to actually transfer and shift their focus so that that child has an opportunity, then, to go within the school system, maybe again with some collaboration with a college or whatever?

But is that sort of the minister's intention? Try and move that so we can take, say, those 20 percent of kids who are failing and then say: "Look, instead of finding failure in the school system, we're going to find an alternate for you to be able to go and find success. It may not necessarily come out with a graduation certificate, but you will be able to do what it is that you find interesting, and then you will be able to go out and hopefully find some gainful employment with that."

Is that what the minister is talking about here?

Hon. G. Abbott: The short answer would be yes, but of course, we should never be content with short answers in an estimates process.

I think the longer, more thoughtful answer to the member's important question is this. Foundation skills are hugely important throughout everyone's life. The foundation skills that hopefully we learn in kindergarten-to-grade-4 will serve us well through the balance of our K-to-12 experience and hopefully will particularly serve us well whether a student decides that they want to go into, let's say, building.

One of the first things, of course, that students find when they go out on a jobsite is: "Hey, that practical math has application after all." So the foundation skills around numeracy are hugely important in that. Similarly, say the interest might be in mechanics. The modern mechanic, of course, uses quite remarkable technology in trying to understand what the vehicle is suffering from, and so you need to have that base set of reading and writing skills to be successful there.

I think the answer to the member's important question is yes. Let's widen the description of what we believe to be success flowing from school but never lose sight that the foundation skills are always going to be enormously important, just recognizing that the application of those skills might be different in one circumstance than another.

R. Austin: I'd like to ask a question in regards to the inequity in access to technology. This is a personal interest of mine, because obviously I come from a part of the province that doesn't necessarily have access to a lot of things at home.

The minister will be well aware that more students have access to their own technology at home, and sometimes they bring that technology to school. Those students whose families don't have the resources for their children are therefore excluded from having access to that technology.

[1500]

My question is this. What funding is being provided to overcome these inequities not only between schools but also between individual students in regards to access to technology?

Hon. G. Abbott: I thank the member for his question. It's an important one. I suspect that as we move forward in this decade and a succession of ministers and Education critics have the opportunity to discuss education, technology will feature more prominently year over year in these discussions than ever before.

The first issue, I think, to talk about a little bit is the whole question of the utilization of technology in education, and there's been a considerable debate around that. The tension between sort of traditional pedagogy and utilization of technology is an important one and one that is probably not entirely resolved yet.

There is, in the Premier's council on technology report, a fascinating graph, which the member may be familiar with. It's a graph of student utilization of technologies, whether it's computer or BlackBerry or other communications technology. It shows a huge spike from early morning through the start of school hours, then drops way down, pops way up at noon hour, way down as school resumes and way up after school.

Clearly, we're seeing students utilize technology enormously outside of schools but only to a limited extent in school, although it's changing and changing dramatically and changing quickly. It is now estimated that 80 percent of British Columbia's families utilize computer technology. So that's a huge shift over time as well.

Without a doubt, I think we will be seeing more and more utilization of technology in schools not as a substitute for foundation skills and the continued development

[ Page 7106 ]

of foundation skills through K-to-12 but utilization of technology for exploring learning areas. The computer is fabulous. We have at our fingertips masses of information about the world, and we can get there by clicking a couple of buttons, and it's an amazing thing.

So notwithstanding the debate about what the appropriate balance is between face-to-face learning and utilizing technology and learning and distance learning and all of that, I think that we will see more and more utilization of technology.

[1505]

The member's question about the cost of it is a good one. I did meet with an organization, which I think has been around for at least a decade, called Computers for Schools, which is a non-profit that utilizes a lot of the surplus computers, particularly from the federal government but also from a variety of private and other sectors.

The computers are sort of refitted, remediated if they need to be, and they are sold to schools for a very small percentage of the real-world cost, probably 10 percent or less of the cost. Schools can equip themselves with these refitted, effectively brand-new computers for a fraction of what it would cost to buy them in the marketplace.

I'm told by the folks from Computers for Schools that they can do more. If schools are interested, they should contact them. If the opportunity for the actual hardware is the barrier, we should be able to overcome that relatively readily.

The issue about connectivity is an important one too. We're gradually pushing out the boundaries of connectivity across the province. I'm not familiar with what exactly in the member's riding the issues of connectivity may be. I know there are certainly still rural areas in my own constituency that are not served by a computer line. So that's an issue but probably every year is going to be less of an issue.

R. Austin: I just wanted to ask some questions with regards to seismic upgrading. I think it's probably very pertinent, as we've witnessed some of the tragedies that have happened around the world recently and know that we here in British Columbia live in an area of seismic activity. In fact, I think I'm correct in saying that there was a 4.5-size earthquake just on the Queen Charlottes, I think three or four days ago. So I think it's important for us to look at this area.

A few years ago, in 2005, in a news release when the government announced the seismic mitigation program, they said that more than 700 schools would be upgraded over the next 15 years, or sooner, as part of a $1.5 billion plan. That release at the time also referred to the first 80 schools to be upgraded over the next three years. The schools were ranked from high to low priority based on independent seismic assessments; 293 schools were identified as high priority.

Now, as of April 14 this year, 99 seismic projects have been completed, 25 are under construction, and ten projects are proceeding to construction. I got that from the ministry's website.

However, in December of 2008 the Auditor General warned that the initial budget set up for this process, the $1.5 billion, was — and this is in his words — "woefully inadequate to finish the job." In response to this, the ministry stated: "The extraordinary cost inflation that we have experienced across the province over the last four years could not have been anticipated."

In addition to the seismic mitigation program, the ministry does provide $5 million a year to school districts in seismic-designated zones to complete non-structural work.

My question to the minister is this: what is the status of the Ministry of Education seismic mitigation program in view of the $15 million decline in funding for this area, as in the service plan? This comes at a time when the Auditor General has suggested the original multi-year figure of $1.5 million will not be enough. What's the status here?

Hon. G. Abbott: The first portion of the answer is this: we have now either completed or are nearing completion in construction of some 134 seismic upgrade projects. We have tried to identify the projects of highest concern or highest importance and, as I say, 134 of them are either completed or on their way to completion.

[1510]

In addition to that, we have undertaken a $25 million program. This is over and above the current expenditures. About $680 million has either been invested or has been agreed to for investment in the area of seismic upgrade. But in addition to that, we have invested $25 million in looking at the non-fixed features inside of school buildings — for example, lighting fixtures that might, in an earthquake, fall from the ceiling or fall over from a shelf; looking at the shelves themselves; looking at any pieces that might go ajar in the case of a seismic event. So that's an important piece as well.

Also, particularly having seen the recent seismic events in New Zealand, in Japan and in China, we are working with the Association of Professional Engineers and Geoscientists to look at how we are proceeding in British Columbia, to see if there are some elements of science that we have learned, for example, from recent events or events since 2005 which might tell us where we should most appropriately be investing next in terms of seismic upgrades. That work with APEG is ongoing, and it's very important and may tell us some new things about how to shape or how to shift our investments in the area of seismic upgrading.

I guess a final point in terms of the Auditor General. We did appreciate the thoughtful report and the thoughtful recommendations that came from the Auditor

[ Page 7107 ]

General. It should be noted, though, that at the time of that report we were experiencing month-over-month increases — sometimes double-digit increases just on concrete and steel during that period of time.

We have seen some of the construction pressure come off — actually, quite a bit of construction pressure — in the last couple, three years, so the opportunities somewhat improved there. But nevertheless, we still look forward to working with the Auditor General on making this project a success.

R. Austin: Does the ministry have a rescheduled timeline as to when they expect all of these projects to be completed?

Hon. G. Abbott: One of the things that we'll want to do is to have the updated advice of the Association of Professional Engineers and Geoscientists as we answer in an appropriate way the important question that's been raised by the opposition critic.

The Association of Professional Engineers and Geoscientists, which helped to put together that list of 700 back close to a decade now, think that there's been much learned about the science of seismic activity since then. We will want to ensure that we take the learnings from this most recent review — that that will help to inform where we make the next series of investments and the timing of that next series of investments.

R. Austin: If, indeed, the original budget that was allocated of $1.5 billion does prove to be inadequate, notwithstanding the fact that there may be new construction methods used, as the minister has mentioned in terms of the latest technology…. If, indeed, it is greater than the $1.5 billion, has the ministry figured out, going forward, where that money is going to come from to be able to complete the schools that still have to be done?

Hon. G. Abbott: I think it would be premature to be thinking along those lines.

[1515]

As I say, we've committed about $680 million to some of the highest-need projects to this point. We will be working with the Association of Professional Engineers and Geoscientists to ensure that, as we move forward in time, we are taking account of all of the latest science and technology around seismic protection.

We still have a considerable distance between $680 million and $1.5 billion. I think it would be premature and presumptive to conclude that we would need to look for further dollars. We will, of course, have a better idea of this after the review is complete and after we take the results of that review and look at the range of projects remaining to be undertaken.

R. Austin: I wanted to ask a question in regards to Partnerships B.C. Does the minister envisage a P3 focus in upcoming capital spending initiatives, whether they be aimed at what we've just been talking about, seismic mitigation, or school refurbishment or even the building of new school construction? If he does, can the minister let us know how these estimates support that process?

Hon. G. Abbott: Partnerships B.C. is engaged on school construction projects over $50 million. They don't get involved under $50 million. The recommendations to date have been either to proceed on traditional construction models or, in some cases, with design-build. There has not been a full P3, as we would know it — as an example, at Surrey Memorial Hospital.

R. Austin: Just continuing on the P3 model. Has the Ministry of Education done any studies to see whether this was the most cost-effective way in other countries that perhaps used P3s — to ensure that it is, in fact, cost-effective for the taxpayers in the long run, bearing in mind that the government, of course, can borrow money much cheaper than private industry can? Yeah, that's what I'd like to know, please.

Hon. G. Abbott: I was very impressed by the work of Partnerships B.C. in the day when I had the honour of being the Health Minister of British Columbia. I think they've done a tremendous body of work in relation to putting together partnerships for Abbotsford Regional Hospital, Kelowna regional, Vernon Jubilee Hospital, a number of projects around Surrey Memorial, as I mentioned. I've been very impressed by their work there.

I am advised that Partnerships B.C.'s advice with respect to the school projects over $50 million has been very useful to the ministry and to the school districts involved in those kinds of projects. For whatever reasons, there has not been, to this point, and there may not be, a history of public-private partnerships — in part, I think, because a lot of school districts do have some in-house expertise in respect of construction management.

For that reason, we haven't seen a lot of P3s in that area. But I don't think that I'm in a position to conclude what would be best or other for school projects. I can only advise that Partnerships B.C. has been very useful to us in terms of getting good advice on how to proceed with projects in the school world as well as in the health world.

[1520]

R. Austin: In regards to a P3 within the school system, if there is a project that applies or is applicable in terms of it being over $50 million as a capital cost…. Does the debt that is incurred, that then has to be repaid over 20 or 30 years or whatever the contract is, stay within the Ministry of Education as a capital debt, or

[ Page 7108 ]

does it stay within the individual school district that incurred that project?

Hon. G. Abbott: The possibility of undertaking a school construction project through a public-private partnership has never been undertaken. The answer is probably a question best directed to the Minister of Finance when he has the opportunity, because this has not been the practice in school construction to undertake it that way. Schools are part of the consolidated financial entity of the province, as well, so that may have some bearing on this.

R. Austin: I'm interested in how this would work with schools, because when it's a bridge, then there can be a toll, and then the money from the toll can go to pay back the construction costs. I'm not quite understanding how this would work with a school. If a school is going to be built, and it's a large school, and it costs over $50 million, I'm not quite sure how this could be done as a P3.

Where would the revenue come in to pay back the partner in a school project? I don't quite see how a P3 would work. But I do realize that under the current law, any capital expenditure that happens in British Columbia that is in excess of $50 million does, by law, have to use the P3 model. Maybe the minister could explain to me where that revenue source would come back to pay the private partner.

Hon. G. Abbott: Much as I hate to acknowledge it, I think the member's question certainly goes well beyond my expertise and understanding in this area. I don't think that, necessarily, the issue about not having tolls and so on comes into play with schools, because we've built hospitals on a P3 basis. It just is something that has not occurred in the education system or, at least, the capital side of the education system.

The question, again, I think might be one better addressed to the Finance Minister, who has responsibility for Partnerships B.C. The member is exploring some theoretical underpinnings to Partnerships B.C. which are beyond our realm of expertise here.

R. Austin: I believe that in terms of hospitals, though…. My understanding is that the building is built and then leased back to the ministry, and the cost of that lease each year is what pays back the initial capital costs that the private partner put in. I'm sure as the Minister of Health you would have dealt with that.

I guess we'll have to assume that that would be the same model used for a school, that in fact, the private partner would be essentially putting up the money up front and then leasing the school back to the school district or to the ministry, depending on who it is that contracts that. But anyway, I'll leave that. I see some nods, so presumably, that's how it would work. Is that right?

Hon. G. Abbott: If we were able to do it, yes.

R. Austin: Okay, I'm hearing that if they were able to do that, that's how it would work.

The Chair: Members, through the Chair.

[1525]

R. Austin: Sorry, through the Chair. I'd like to ask a question about the shared services pilot project that the ministry is involved with and ask the minister: what's the status of the four-district shared services pilot initiative that was announced last year by your predecessor?

Hon. G. Abbott: In response to the member's question, the ministry is in a process of exploring and building a business case for a common payroll, a common receivables and expendables system. The four school districts that are involved in that process of building a business case are Surrey, Vancouver, Kamloops and North Van.

R. Austin: So does this mean that if this pilot project is proven to be successful, this would then be put in place regionally or provincewide? What does the minister envisage in terms of the outcome if this is proved to be successful? Is it going to be a regional basis or provincewide?

Hon. G. Abbott: The exploration and construction of the business case will help to point us in the direction of whether it should proceed at all, whether it should proceed on a regional basis or whether it should proceed on an overall provincial basis. That will be among the learnings that will come from the development of the business case.

R. Austin: When will the minister be able to report back to this House on this project? When are we actually going to hear what the results are, the business case put forward, so that we can look at that?

Hon. G. Abbott: Our best estimate would be over the next several months.

R. Austin: I'd like to ask a question with regards to fiscal year changes. What's the status of the discussed change in school district fiscal year to align with the province's fiscal year-end?

Hon. G. Abbott: I am advised that that is an issue which we periodically examine, but there are no im-

[ Page 7109 ]

mediate or pending plans to adjust the school and fiscal years.

R. Austin: At this point I'm just going to cede the floor to my colleague from the North Island.

C. Trevena: I'd like to ask a couple of questions about school district 72. The school board is actually meeting this evening to discuss its budget, and it looks like there are going to be some quite significant cuts to it. They're going to be reducing services by about $841,000 and will have to take about $188,000 from their contingency fund. It is going to mean a reduction in the number of teachers, support staff and administrators.

I wondered if the minister could just give a bit of an explanation about how he perceives it to be good for the school district that they have to keep dipping into their contingency funds to make sure that they can keep on operating.

[1530]

Hon. G. Abbott: I thank the member for her question. In quickly reviewing school district 72, Campbell River, we in our experience have found that school district 72 is a very well managed school district. We're very confident of the ability of the school board to make appropriate decisions to deal with their challenges, and they do have some challenges.

They have seen since 2000-2001, when they had an enrolment of 7,093, a drop in enrolment. It's down now around 5,200 from just over 7,000. They've had some pretty substantial challenges to deal with in respect of that. Despite that substantial drop in enrolment, their operating funding has moved from $46.781 million in 2000-2001 to just over $49 million now — $49,070,589.

The per-pupil has also moved up, and this is an attempt to try to cushion or protect school district 72 from that very compelling challenge of declining student enrolment. We have seen the per-pupil figure for that district move from $6,595 in 2000-2001 to an estimated $9,100 this year — just over $9,100 per student. That will be helpful, but as the member rightly notes, it still leaves some challenges for the district.

We are confident, though, in this district's ability to manage their challenges. I am pleased to say that notwithstanding the challenges they've had for actually every year through the past decade, they have had surplus budgets. In the most recent, $2.482 million was their surplus, and they've been running surpluses of $3 million, $4 million, $4 million, $3 million and $2 million on average a year. These are trustees and managers who are doing a very good job of managing the situation that they have.

C. Trevena: I thank the minister for his response. I'm pleased that he recognizes school district 72 as being such a good school district. I think it is a very well recognized school district. They do very innovative work — not just the board in its governance style but the teachers. Everyone really is doing the best job they can. I'm very fortunate that I actually have three very innovative and three very different school districts in my constituency, with 84 and 85.

Going back to the issue of funding for school district 72, the school district is in some ways lucky that it has a contingency fund it can dip into. It is taking, as I mentioned, $188,500 from the contingency.

[1535]

I'd like to ask the minister for a bit of clarification. We talk about the increase in per-pupil funding, but I have here a statement from the chair of the school district, Ms. Helen Moats, who says in the latest newsletter of the school district: "Although per-pupil funding from the Ministry of Education has increased for 2011-2012, our overall funding is not sufficient to cover increasing costs, such as pension and benefit increases, fuel and utilities cost increases, and simple inflation."

So I just wondered, literally, how to square the circle. Yes, per-pupil funding has gone up, but it still doesn't cover all the, if you'd like to say, non-classroom costs. It's the cost of running the schools and paying the salaries and paying the pensions.

Hon. G. Abbott: Again, we appreciate the good work that is undertaken at school district 72. I wasn't immediately aware of any expressed concerns that they had about the adequacy or inadequacy of the funding.

After now several years as a Health Minister and as a Minister of Education, I certainly am looking forward to the day when I receive correspondence from a health authority or a school district which indicates that their funding is more than adequate and they're going to be returning some to the government. That is something that I'm still looking forward to.

Of course, we don't expect them to send dollars back when they have a surplus, as school district 72 has had over the past decade. Again, just so we're clear, if they are utilizing a portion of their contingency, we don't view that as a bad thing.

When the Auditor General looked at school districts across the province and measured the surplus cash they had or cash on hand they had, he indicated that generally it would be a positive thing for those on-hand cash surpluses to be reduced over time.

So if a school district on a sustainable basis is utilizing, on a year-to-year basis, a portion of a contingency and then potentially restoring it or not restoring it year over year, that's not necessarily a bad thing. If districts are managing their funds well and sustainably, it can be a positive thing. I think, based on the record that I see for school district 72, they're doing a very good job of

[ Page 7110 ]

managing their cash and other funds to effectively provide education.

Again, the fact that they've said that they'd like to have more dollars would probably line them up with 59 other school districts.

C. Trevena: Thank you, Minister. I don't think, however, the minister actually answered my question, which is trying to square the circle of saying that it's not just that we don't have enough funding. The chair of the school board, I believe, has written to the minister twice in this last year about the lack of funding. What she is saying — and very measured — is that "our overall funding is not sufficient to cover increasing costs, such as pension and benefit increases, fuel and utilities cost increases, and simple inflation."

Effectively, what the chair of the school board is saying is: "We are supposed to be running an education system to the benefit of all our children. We have this discussion regularly. It's the future of our province. We don't have enough money to do it. We have to…." I mean, here it's not just going into the contingency funds. It's quite outright cutting out teachers, cutting support staff and cutting administration.

[1540]

If these people that both sides of the House are praising very fulsomely, and I think quite rightly, are saying, "We haven't got the money to do it," I would like to hear what the minister's response is.

Hon. G. Abbott: The last thing I'd ever want to be in these estimates is argumentative, but I'm afraid that I'm not finding the member's argument compelling here.

I want to begin with this: respect that the school district has done a very good job of managing their resources. We respect that. The fact that school districts will indicate to us that they'd like more money is not a surprise. That is something that we periodically see. The only mildly provocative thing I would say about the 60 school districts is I hope they will embrace educational reform and the discussion around that with the same enthusiasm with which they embrace the frequent advice to the ministry that they need more money.

If we look at the accumulated operating surplus or deficit funding of school district 72, one would note, for example, that in 2001, when our government took office, school district 72 had an accumulated operating fund surplus of $659,713. That grew year over year consistently through 2007, when the accumulated operating surplus peaked out at $4,239,740. It remained just over $4 million in 2008, and as I think is appropriate, given the Auditor General's advice around this, we still see in 2010 an accumulated operating surplus of $2,482,661.

If the school district feels that they need to reduce that a little bit more to sustain funding for programs for 2011-2012, we don't have an objection to that. But the reason why they have been able to continue to enjoy an accumulated operating fund surplus, notwithstanding the fact that they have dropped almost 1,700 students over that period, is because we have provided funding protection year over year which protected them from year-over-year loss of dollars — notwithstanding that every year the number of students in the system has gone down.

It's fascinating. I never tire of debating this important issue of school funding. But I do hope at some point that we have an equally relishing conversation about educational reform, because I find it even more fascinating than persistent complaints about the level of funding.

C. Trevena: I would love to have a discussion about education reform. I think there are lots of great potentials, and I think that we have the resources in this province to really revolutionize the way that we do education and that our children can learn. I think it would be a really fascinating discussion.

I think that the present framework with the present funding model is not the best place to start the education reform. I think you have to have more stability of funding, and one of the things that the school trustees have been saying and have been saying publicly is that they do need more stable funding.

I will press on, because I do know that I have colleagues who'd like to ask other questions. I'd like to move very briefly — hopefully we can deal with this in just the one question — to all-day kindergarten.

[1545]

School district 72 again held back from introducing all-day kindergarten until they could introduce it right across the district. They didn't do it half-and-half. I know that the ministry has been putting out a number of news releases about the beneficence of its supply of school portables. I wanted to know whether the ministry would be providing the ongoing, current costs for the upkeep and the running of those portables once they are in the school facilities.

Hon. G. Abbott: I thank the member for her question with respect to incremental investments to support, from a capital perspective, the full-day kindergarten.

In school district 72, Campbell River, there will be two classroom conversions — that is, from other uses. There will be an addition of nine new modular classrooms. The folks who build the modular classrooms take great umbrage or offence at them being categorized as portables because they are built to a much higher standard — a much longer life and much more use of glass and interior finishings and so on — than one would find typically in a portable.

So the nine new modular classrooms, and there will be an addition of two new classrooms — I presume on traditional build — at Ripple Rock Elementary.

[ Page 7111 ]

C. Trevena: I thank the minister for that. Because the education system is expanding with the introduction of all-day kindergarten, we're going to get an increased number of students through from the age of five and maybe even the age of four. I wondered whether there will be a reflective increase in cost to ensure that the school district can carry on paying the running costs of those modular classrooms and the increased space that's being used.

Hon. G. Abbott: School district 72 will get their portion of the $58 million operating that's been allocated to full-day kindergarten.

C. Trevena: I'd just like to thank the minister for his answers. I look forward to the pedagogical debate in future estimates.

S. Fraser: Hello to the minister and staff. I'm looking forward to asking a few questions, raising a few issues, that I hope the minister can help me with.

I have, in whole or in part, representation for two districts — that is, district 69 and district 70 on Vancouver Island. It spans both sides of Vancouver Island, from the west coast — Tofino, Ucluelet — through the Alberni Valley and, of course, to the east side of the Island, part of Oceanside. I also represent Coombs, Errington, Whiskey Creek, Deep Bay, Bowser — that area too — but no longer Qualicum Beach directly, although you can't necessarily separate the boundaries on some of these issues because the students don't always adhere to the electoral boundaries.

I'd like to make a comment, if I could, first, to the minister. He was suggesting, I think to the member for North Island, that the funding requests are never-ending. Somehow, he seemed to be suggesting that these requests from teachers and school districts are somehow meaningless or unfounded. I know that the minister and the government have always taken a position — and ministers before him — that funding is always increased. He seems to just shy away from unfunded costs that are off-loaded and downloaded on to school districts.

[1550]

Those are real, and they do put pressures on schools and on teachers. They create challenges. I don't think that these requests for money are just meaningless or unfounded, and I don't think it's appropriate or accurate to make light of those funding requests. I think the court decision that we've seen recently did certainly indicate that government had made a big mistake as far as taking away the rights of teachers to negotiate things like class size and compositions.

Teachers have spoken repeatedly for years since I've been in this House, raising the alarm on class size and composition throughout the province. That is a funding issue. Cutting funding to schools means that thousands of classrooms have had challenges and have exceeded the limits that this government has put in place. Those are funding issues.

You know, I think the court affirmed that, certainly, the requests for more funding — that there was inadequate funding — were reflected in part by the decision of the court. I just leave that with the minister. He may want to comment on that before I begin my stuff. I think he does.

Hon. G. Abbott: Well, I appreciate the member's thoughtful intervention, and it follows on the heels of the member for North Island, who made a similar submission that somehow our government has been underfunding education since 2001. Notwithstanding the fact that in 2001 the per-student funding allocation was $6,662 and a decade later it is $8,357, and notwithstanding a dramatic reduction of about 59,000 students across the public school system over the decade, we have seen the overall funding — this includes operating but also includes capital — grow from $4.1 billion for education to now $5.8 billion for education. That is a 41 percent increase.

In pretty much any world — possibly excluding the world of health care, which has seen even more dramatic expenditure growth — that is a huge investment that our government has undertaken over the past decade. When we said in 2001 that we're going to protect health care and education, we meant it, and we have.

In anticipation of these kinds of submissions on a persistent basis from members of the opposition, I took it upon myself to ground-proof the investments that we have made against the proposal which was put forward by a group that are often associated with taxing and spending very, very liberally in this province, if I can use that word loosely: the New Democratic Party.

I thought: "Wouldn't it be interesting to compare what the NDP had in their fiscal plan for the 2009 election. Wouldn't it be interesting to compare what the NDP had in their three-year plan for education and then compare it to what was actually spent in British Columbia by this government on education."

Remarkably, what we found was not that we were underspending. In fact, our government had invested $29 million more in education operations than the NDP proposed to in their 2009 budget submission to the electors of British Columbia. So my ground-proofing would suggest that in fact arguments about underfunding perhaps are inconsistent with what the promise was that was made by the NDP in 2009.

I'm delighted to hear these submissions from every opposition member about underfunding, but I wanted to begin with an explanation of why we are funding more than the NDP plan of 2009.

[1555]

[ Page 7112 ]

S. Fraser: Well, we could spar on this one for a while. I could get into tax and spend. We're talking about a government that has run up the highest deficits in the history of the province and has brought in the largest tax shift onto the backs of British Columbia families and small businesses in history.

Interjection.

S. Fraser: Oh no, but you can have the argument. The minister would have no argument from me if we were talking about…. Let's look at taxation as far as paying for….

The people of British Columbia would probably be engaged in a discussion about taxation that would progressively fund things like health care and education. But to have taxation that funds five corporate sectors, well, you know, the public never got the chance for that argument and that discussion.

We can talk about tax and spend at another time, if we could. I don't want to take up more time. I'd like to get to district 70. I'll go to the west coast first, if I may.

The communities of Tofino and Ucluelet — it's exactly a marathon. It's 42 kilometres between the two communities. A couple of years ago there was a ripple of fear through both communities with the spectre of one of the elementary schools, either Ucluelet Elementary or Wickaninnish Elementary in Tofino, maybe being forced to shut down in an attempt by the trustees to try to make budget, a challenge for all school districts. I won't cast blame on that, but the reality is that there have been a lot of schools shut down in the province — 191.

Two years ago, I think it was, it landed on Ucluelet Elementary School. It was being considered by district 70 to shut down the elementary school. The community, to their credit, rallied. All sectors of the community — the chamber of commerce; the local government; parent groups; students at the elementary school; and the trustees, to their credit — worked very hard, and they managed to avert that shutdown of Ucluelet Elementary School.

[D. Black in the chair.]

I'm just wondering: are we safe now? The fear is still there that one of those schools could…. If there's a drop in enrolment, a temporary drop, it might force the closure of one of those schools, and I know the minister would appreciate the challenges of trying to bus kids of elementary school age 42 kilometres every day — 84 kilometres there and back.

I wonder if the minister could comment and maybe give us some comfort that that may not be a fear that's necessary to have any more.

Hon. G. Abbott: Just having a quick look at school district 69, Qualicum, and school district 70, Alberni, in both cases we have seen a substantial reduction in enrolment over the decade. Let's start with 69. The 2000-2001 FTE enrolment was 5,355 a decade ago and is now down to 4,316.

On the positive side, though, there has been in the last year a slight uptick in terms of enrolment, moving from 4,286 to the 4,316 that I mentioned. Hopefully, we're seeing perhaps some modest improvement in that, although it would be difficult to know demographically what will change in the riding in the immediate years ahead.

The challenge in Alberni is similar. A decade ago — 5,178 students. In 2011-2012 the estimates are 4,154. So there have been year-over-year reductions in overall students there as well. In school district 69 the per-pupil allocation was $6,559 in 2000-2001 and is going to an estimated…. It would be just over $9,300 — about $9,377, in that area.

[1600]

So we've seen substantial per-pupil lifts. Because we're protecting year over year, they're funding from declining enrolments. So that is a challenge.

In the case of school district 70, again we've been seeing the school district undertaking to manage effectively. I believe we'd say the same for Qualicum as well. They have been drawing down their surpluses. They have been making appropriate decisions with respect to schools.

The challenge in a public school system that has seen about a 10 percent decline in the number of students over a decade…. It is important to remember that it costs sometimes the same number of dollars to keep open a school that has 50 percent or 60 percent occupancy versus a higher level of occupancy.

So one of the extraordinary challenges of school districts is, on some occasions, to make difficult decisions about school closures. Those are decisions which the school districts make, and by and large, they make them very responsibly. It's never an easy decision, but this is the challenge of shifting demographics — that on some occasions the numbers will drop below levels that are appropriate for them to continue to be open.

S. Fraser: I guess I got a partial answer to my question. I'll move across the Island, if I could. If we could stick with district 70, the schools on the west coast and the issue of Ucluelet Elementary School potentially closing.

I understand. I mean, the world and the province will always have fluctuating populations and demographics, and that will be reflected in fluctuating enrolment. I'm not arguing that. But these are numbers, and there are estimates that are often not accurate. There's some error built into that. We do have the need in our public education system for universality in education. Certainly, the proximal schools in communities are important.

You've got two schools. They're elementary schools, so these are kids from kindergarten through — on the

[ Page 7113 ]

west coast, in Tofino and Ucluelet — to grade 7, including grade 7. For grade 8, it's the Ucluelet Secondary School then. The students from Tofino and Opitsaht, the First Nations community, that are of high school age — grade 8 and beyond — are bused to the Ucluelet Secondary School. There's just the one high school on the west coast there.

It's understood that, historically, Ucluelet got the high school and Tofino got the hospital. There was sort of an informal agreement, if you will, or at least that's the way I've heard history be told.

The elementary schools and the spectre of one of them closing…. This was coming. When this happened two years ago…. There is an increasing birth rate on the west coast. That wouldn't necessarily be reflected in the school for a few years, but it's happening and will happen. So the fear of losing one of the schools…. The only option there is either to move the younger kids into the high school, which has some challenges for children and for parents and adults, as the minister I'm sure will recognize, or busing the kids at that age to the other community.

I would suggest that the challenge the minister is talking about with enrolment is created at least in part by government. There are endless variations to a funding formula for education. This government has chosen a funding formula based largely on enrolment, as opposed to some core funding or more on core funding for schools.

[1605]

Going back to my question, I don't have the numbers there, so I'm asking: does it look like we are pretty safe for the next few years? The spectre of losing one of those schools on the west coast, elementary schools, means losing the ability of communities, Ucluelet and/or Tofino, from gaining a population. It's almost a self-fulfilling prophecy.

It's hard to get young families to move into a community when you lose a school, whether it's an elementary school or a high school. The fear of losing one of these schools actually has an effect on business and economic development in the area.

Again, can the minister give us any assurance for the people of Tofino and Ucluelet, and the growing communities there with increasing birth rates in some of those areas, as far as security with having an elementary school in the community where people live and recreate?

Hon. G. Abbott: As I've mentioned at earlier points in these estimates, the issue of demographics is what is at the heart of the challenge for school district administration and management in British Columbia, as it is in so many other jurisdictions in the western world that also see the demographic shift.

The demographic shift is one that makes the provision of health care an extraordinarily difficult one because in an aging demographic the pressure on health care systems and resources is enormous. We're seeing and feeling that every day in British Columbia and Canada and across the western world.

Similar to an aging demographic, where year over year there is a reduced school-aged population, again, inevitably that is going to make the management and administration of schools a difficult matter.

As I mentioned before, we have 59,000 fewer students across the system today than we did a decade ago. There is a subtle shift in the demographics. Also, we have to an extent accelerated that shift by moving to all-day kindergarten in September.

If, as the member has said, we are seeing some population growth in Ucluelet and Tofino — at least if a portion of that growth is with the younger population and families in their child-bearing years — then inevitably the school populations will come up. I hope that's the case. Ucluelet and Tofino are two of my favourite places on the face of the earth. I always love to visit them, and I hope that they do well.

But it is, not nor should it be, a role of the Ministry of Education to dictate to school districts the decisions they make around the opening and closing of schools. We don't do that. We respect that they will look at the school population, they will look at the resources they have, and they will anticipate the future. They will draw in perhaps dozens of elements into their decision-making, and we will respect the decisions that they make.

That, I hope, is useful to the member, but we can't guarantee because we could only guarantee if we dictated. We are not going to dictate to school districts how they should manage their resources.

S. Fraser: I'm not happy with the answer that the minister gave. I heard what he said, and I think it's a very simplistic answer to a question that deserved a bit more depth to it — the depth being that it is the role of government to determine funding formulas for education.

I agree with the minister that it is the role of the trustees and the board to make those decisions about how funding will be allocated. They're often not given the tools. They're often given, I would suggest, through a flawed funding formula….

[1610]

It's simply not working for a lot of communities. Schools are being forced to shut down because of this year's budget, even if there is potentially an increasing population, because the formula doesn't allow for any…. The core funding element is inadequate compared to the enrolment.

When you base it solely, or almost all, on enrolment, then of course, it becomes a roller-coaster as enrolment looks like it's going to drop. It has shut down 191 schools already. The minister talked about there being less students. Well, there are less schools, too, because of that, and those communities are hurting for it.

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I would suggest that if you're not willing to look at that formula, the school closures will have an effect on the graduation rates, on our economy. So I'd like the minister to look a little bit deeper than that.

But I've got to move on. I don't really have any assurances or comfort for the people of Ucluelet-Tofino. The elementary schools, either one, might be shut down at some point because the formula that the trustees are forced to work with may not be serving them as well as it could or as well as it should.

Moving to the central part of the Island, into the Alberni Valley. I'm just wondering if the minister is aware. There's a program that delivers project-based learning in the Alberni Valley. It began in 2007, and it's quite unique. Greenmax Resources are the operators of woodlot 1479 in the Alberni Valley. They partnered with district 70. They're doing a really innovative program where they're taking kids — grade 9 and grade 10, but mostly grade 9….

The program is to encourage students to enjoy learning through a different kind of medium — in the woodlot. It works. I've visited there a number of times. I believe the previous Forest Minister also visited there and was quite impressed.

Not every kid is engaged in an academic setting. I may have been one of those kids. But this works, and the children are learning all their basic skills by hands-on, in a woodlot — whether it's geometry or mathematics or meteorology — in many ways, engaging kids that are otherwise somewhat difficult to engage.

It spans several ministries. It began as a pilot project funded, I believe, through the Ministry of Forests. It exposes kids to a type of education where they can shine and become re-engaged in the educational system.

I'm just wondering if the minister has heard of the program. Shawn Flynn and David McBride are the woodlot owners and operators. They've worked closely with the principal at ADSS, Mike Ruttan, and the teacher Ryan Dvorak — a great program.

I'm just wondering if the minister has any…. I know he's new in this portfolio, but he's learning quick, I see. I'm hoping that he would be supportive, at least in theory, of this program, because there are significant funding challenges that go through it. I would suggest that the investment in such a program, the payoff, is going to be huge.

Hon. G. Abbott: I'll start at the front end of the member's observations and work through to the latter portion of his question.

The issue of the funding formula is an important one. To those who have said that the formula is flawed or there should be some different way of doing this, I always say: "You know, I'm sure, like everything else on the face of the earth, it can be improved." So I extend to the member this invitation: if he has some ideas on how he can improve the funding formula, I'd be glad to hear them. I honestly would be glad to hear them.

The challenge that the member will quickly encounter is the challenge that everyone in the system has, which is that we have 60 school districts in the province. They range from a school district the size of France which has fewer than 200 students in the school district to densely populated districts with upwards of 70,000 students in them.

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It is remarkably difficult to find a funding formula which everyone in British Columbia is going to go and say, "Well, the member sure got that one right. We all salute that" — because they won't. It is ever a challenge.

We do try, though, to ensure that school districts get the dollars they need to provide the support they get. In a very expansive school district that has special challenges because of the geography and the sparse number of students, funding might be in excess of $20,000 a student. When you get into denser areas, excluding additional funding for ESL or otherwise, it might be a lesser amount.

We have, I guess, the principle of per-student funding as the principal driver in terms of the dollars that move to school districts. If there is a better way other than enrolment of providing funds to school districts, I'm glad to hear about it and glad to think about it, and I invite the member to make suggestions in that regard. But it is difficult to do.

In the case of school district 70, as I mentioned earlier, this is a district that has seen, over a decade, a staggering reduction, a 20 percent reduction, in the number of students in that district. That is a huge reduction in the student population that is served by school district 70. Notwithstanding that, we have seen a $1.7 million increase in their funding. Again, it is substantial.

It's never easy to reconcile these things. I do think that, again, the fact of the NDP's education plan in the 2009 election is another reflection on this, that this is not an easy thing to do. The fact that we've actually spent $29 million more than was anticipated by the opposition in their 2009 campaign platform is an indication that in fact we are not underfunding, that in fact we have given the priority to this that we believe is appropriate.

But I'm always happy to hear from folks who have a better idea about how to do these things, because there may well be some ways that we can improve. I'm always glad to hear about that.

In terms of the woodlot program, we have — or, at least, ministry staff have — visited the project. We understand it's a summer-based, work experience project. It looks excellent from the ministry perspective. We salute what they are doing there. It is very much consistent with what we were discussing earlier with the opposition critic around personalized learning —

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an opportunity, hopefully, for students to explore their passion for working in the woods — and that's a great thing.

S. Fraser: Thanks to the minister for that. Again, I'd like to go back and discuss the funding stuff, too, but maybe in my last issue I'll touch on it again, and we can re-energize that conversation as I'm working my way across the Island from west to east.

The woodlot program actually happens during the school year. I applaud Principal Ruttan, the teacher Mr. Dvorak, and certainly Shawn and David in the woodlot for doing that.

I'm wondering if the minister would be interested in receiving any further information or submission from those people doing the work. We're looking to try to find a way to ensure that the program continues. It's a challenge, and I understand that challenges can be overcome if we all put our minds to it.

This is a truly impressive program. There's a lot of volunteerism that goes into it. It's very good value for the dollar. I'm wondering if at some later time, when we're through the estimates, the minister would be interested in hearing a little more about that. He's nodding. I'll let him speak to that for the record.

Hon. G. Abbott: For the record, I'd be delighted to hear more of it.

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S. Fraser: Well, the minister might be getting an invitation to come and visit there soon. That would be a wonderful thing. It's a beautiful location in the Alberni Valley too. It's wonderful.

I'm going to move right to this. Being mindful of the time — I'm taking up more than my share from my colleagues here, and I thank them for that — the last issue is the east side of the Island, and it's Kwalikum Secondary School, KSS. The minister, I know, is aware of this. There is the same spectre that happened with Ucluelet Elementary a couple of years ago on the west coast — the spectre of closure of KSS.

Again, I don't have the expertise to tell the minister how to redo a funding formula, but he did indicate that he was interested in listening to submissions. I would suggest in a very basic way that basing the number on enrolment is somewhat arbitrary. Without core funding, I don't think many schools would have survived colonization in this province, in this country. There wouldn't be communities.

It's a chicken or egg thing. For instance, in Qualicum Beach, if the town of Qualicum Beach loses its high school based on estimates of enrolment for the future, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. The growth strategies of the area…. Qualicum Beach isn't just Kwalikum. It's the catchment areas, the surrounding areas right up to Deep Bay. Kids are already busing and being transported for quite a large distance.

Losing that high school means you would have a decline, a rapid decline. Not only would the community and communities surrounding that catchment area lose enrolment because families would move away, young families would not move there. It's a basic criteria for many — to ensure that there is a proximal, community-based school that they have access to, that their children have access to.

I would submit that there's a problem with the current funding formula based so heavily on enrolment. It causes knee jerks, and these are fluctuations.

The enrolment in the area in the '80s, if the minister checks back — and his staff will have the statistics on this — was lower than it's being predicted at the lowest point in the forecast that we're seeing going ahead with the Matrix numbers that have come forward. That enrolment declined further throughout that decade of the '80s.

Again, shutting the school — penny-wise, pound-foolish comes to mind. It's bad business. The school is relatively new. It was expanded based largely on numbers done by Matrix a decade ago. This school provides a gym. It's the largest gym in the entire region. That would be lost — for the entire region. The band. There are two separate large band rooms. The KSS technology programs are award-winning. Their automotive courses are award-winning. The minister's staff are nodding here.

I'm afraid that the formula is failing the people of Qualicum Beach. If, indeed, the trustees are forced to make the horrible decision — and I applaud the trustees trying to juggle and wrestle with this — it would be the best of a bad lot of decisions if it is to close down KSS. It would be a disservice to the people of Qualicum Beach, the families. The students are the ones that have