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June 25, 2002

37th Parliament, 3rd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2002-Jun-25 (PDF)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L'ONTARIO

Tuesday 25 June 2002 Mardi 25 juin 2002

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

LONG-TERM CARE

WATER QUALITY

EDUCATION FUNDING

VINK FARMS

EDUCATION FUNDING

RENAISSANCE FAIRE

PREMIER OF ONTARIO

MATTAWA VOYAGEUR DAYS

VISITORS

MEMBERS' EXPENDITURES REPORT

STATUS OF BILL 122

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE ON

GENERAL GOVERNMENT

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

NIAGARA HEALTH SYSTEM

ELECTIONS ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 SUR LES ÉLECTIONS

AU SEIN DU SYSTÈME DE SANTÉ

DE NIAGARA

CHILD AND FAMILY SERVICES

AMENDMENT ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 MODIFIANT LA LOI

SUR LES SERVICES À L'ENFANCE

ET À LA FAMILLE

MOTIONS

STANDING COMMITTEE ON

PUBLIC ACCOUNTS

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

AND RESPONSES

CANADA DAY

ORDER OF BUSINESS

HYDRO ONE INC. DIRECTORS

AND OFFICERS ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 SUR LES ADMINISTRATEURS

ET LES DIRIGEANTS DE HYDRO ONE INC.

NUTRIENT MANAGEMENT ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 SUR LA GESTION

DES ÉLÉMENTS NUTRITIFS

RESCUING CHILDREN FROM SEXUAL

EXPLOITATION ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002

SUR LA DÉLIVRANCE DES ENFANTS

DE L'EXPLOITATION SEXUELLE

ORAL QUESTIONS

EDUCATION FUNDING

LONG-TERM CARE

HYDRO RATES

URBAN ISSUES SUMMIT

HOME CARE

BIG TICKET LOTTERY

PICKERING NUCLEAR

GENERATING STATION

FIRE MARSHAL'S GUIDELINE

PRIVATE HEALTH CARE SERVICES

IPPERWASH PROVINCIAL PARK

NUTRIENT MANAGEMENT

HYDRO DAM SAFETY

HMCS HAIDA

EDUCATION FUNDING

SUPPORT FOR AGRICULTURE

PETITIONS

CHILDREN'S HEALTH SERVICES

HEALTH CARE

PROFESSIONAL LEARNING

HIGHWAY 522

ONTARIO DISABILITY

SUPPORT PROGRAM

HEALTH CARE

DOCTOR SHORTAGE

HEALTH CARE

SPEECH AND LANGUAGE SERVICES

HEALTH CARE

AIR QUALITY

HEALTH CARE

HYDRO ONE

LONDON HEALTH SCIENCES CENTRE

ORDERS OF THE DAY

KEEPING THE PROMISE

FOR GROWTH AND PROSPERITY ACT

(2002 BUDGET), 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 SUR LE RESPECT

DE L'ENGAGEMENT D'ASSURER

LA CROISSANCE ET LA PROSPÉRITÉ

(BUDGET DE 2002)

Tuesday 25 June 2002 Mardi 25 juin 2002

The House met at 1330.

Prayers.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

LONG-TERM CARE

Mrs Marie Bountrogianni (Hamilton Mountain): I wish to bring to the attention of the Legislature a problem that too many of my constituents are

encountering. Many Hamilton seniors, like my constituent Marie Clayton, are unable to enter a long-term facility even when spaces become available. After spending two years on a waiting list, many

of them are discovering they will not be accepted into a long-term-care residence unless they have an attending physician. As you can imagine, this is causing incredible distress for our frail

elderly and their families.

Seniors on Hamilton Mountain are telling me they are unable to find a physician to attend to them, no matter how hard they try. One of the reasons for this is

the Ministry of Health's funding formula, which pays a physician significantly less for a visit to a nursing home than a call to a seniors' residence complex.

Another major problem is the overall shortage of physicians in Ontario. For years, we have known we don't have enough doctors, but this government only increased

the number of spaces in Ontario's medical schools a year ago. In addition, the Ministry of Health was supposed to accredit 40 foreign-trained physicians this year, but so far it has certified less

than 10. With a system like this, is it any wonder doctors are so scarce?

Even many of the fortunate seniors who manage to get a bed are confronted with inadequate conditions. Often, there's not enough nursing time to assist them with

eating, change their diapers regularly or give them a bath more than once a week.

Ontario's seniors have contributed a lifetime of hard work to our society. They've played by the rules. They've paid their taxes. Let them live their last years

in life with dignity.

WATER QUALITY

Mr Bert Johnson (Perth-Middlesex): Last Monday evening, June 11, my colleague Bill Murdoch from Bruce-Grey-Owen Sound and I travelled to my

riding to attend a council meeting of the town of North Perth in Listowel. The purpose of our visit was to discuss with council the challenges facing Atwood and Gowanstown particularly, two small

hamlets in North Perth, where many residents rely on communal wells for their water. The main issue of concern was how the municipality and the residents could meet the requirements of the new

drinking water protection regulations in a reasonable way.

I was pleased to report at that meeting that Ontario's finance minister had just announced $245 million to help improve the safety of drinking water, including

funds to help municipalities upgrade their water systems to meet our tough new standards.

I'd like to thank my colleague Bill Murdoch for taking the time to meet with council and the residents of Gowanstown and Atwood in his capacity as parliamentary

assistant to the Minister of Environment and Energy. I'd also like to thank North Perth Mayor Vince Judge, the council and municipal staff for welcoming Mr Murdoch and me to Monday's council

meeting.

This is an important issue for rural Ontario and it's one that presents many challenges. I'd like to thank the Premier and the Minister of Finance as well as the

Minister of Environment and Energy for recognizing the scope of this problem and for addressing it in the budget. I look forward to continuing to work with them to find the most feasible ways to

meet our goal of safe drinking water for all Ontarians.

EDUCATION FUNDING

Mr Dominic Agostino (Hamilton East): I rise today first of all to commend the Hamilton board of education for standing up to this government in

regard to the funding formula.

Last night the board passed a deficit budget, at great risk to themselves individually as trustees, because of a $16-million shortfall as the result of the

inadequate funding formula and being shortchanged by this government when it comes to education funding.

Our schools are in bad shape. We need more computers, more books and smaller classrooms. We have rooms, as I've raised in the House before, where roofs are

leaking and kids' desks have to be moved when it rains.

This government does not see fit to properly fund education in Hamilton and across this province. It forces school trustees, who want to do the right thing, who

are there for kids, to defy the law and the outrageous legislation this government has put in place to try to bully, arm-twist and beat up school boards into going along with their crazy funding

formula.

The reality is, the Hamilton board drew a line in the sand last night and said, "Enough is enough. The kids are the priority." Wes Hicks, a trustee for ward 8

with 20 years' experience, said it best when he said, "It's time to stand up for the kids." The Hamilton board of education understands that. It understands that funding is a priority for classroom

education. This government doesn't understand that. They are not concerned about the level of funding in the schools across this province. They've shoved off the funding formula to some review in

November, and God only knows when they're going to change it; maybe in time for the next election.

The reality is that the Hamilton board took a courageous stand. They stood up for the kids in Hamilton. They stood up for quality education. This government

doesn't have the guts or the courage to do the same thing.

VINK FARMS

Mr R. Gary Stewart (Peterborough): Today is a special day in my riding of Peterborough for Vink Farms, located near Norwood. Another milestone

will be celebrated at Vink Farms, a farming operation that began almost 75 years ago, when a new dairy facility will be opened later on this afternoon.

For the past 10 years, owner Hans Vink has been a board member of Dairy Farmers of Ontario and has been the provincial representative. His herd has been the

three-time top production herd in Peterborough county, in 1998, 1999 and 2000.

Some 135 Holstein dairy cows will be milked three times a day within a 19,400-square-foot facility in a state-of-the-art Westfalia-Surge double 8 parallel

milking parlour. Today's herd will be housed in a free-standing stall on sand bedding featuring a high-roof canopy and climate-controlled curtain sidewalls for maximum ventilation. Each cow's

activity will be monitored by identification leg bracelets every minute of the day to help with production, breeding and health monitoring. To minimize dirty feedage, the cow walk alley has a

computer-timed flush system that utilizes earthen manure storages. Environmental concerns, while significantly considered, are felt to be minimal but identifiable, since the fresh water supply for

the entire facility is topographically below the two storages.

Please join me in congratulating Hans Vink and his wife, Cathy, in their new business venture and in wishing them continued success for their future in

farming.

Mr Mario Sergio (York West): This year, over 130,000 newcomers will make Ontario their new home. Thousands of these newcomers will settle right

Adult ESL programs are a vital part of our education system. Newcomers depend on these classes to acquire the language skills that enable them to find meaningful employment and participate in their

children's education.

The Toronto District School Board does not receive accommodation grants for adult ESL programs. The board receives no funding to pay for the space occupied by

these essential programs.

On behalf of the campaign for stable funding of adult ESL classes, a coalition of organizations seeking improved funding, I want to deliver to the Minister of

Education these postcards from students in my community who fear they will be left out in the cold. In your review of the funding formula, Madam Minister, I urge you to ensure quality education and

equality of opportunity for Ontario students by improving the funding of adult ESL classes. In doing so, new Canadians will be guided and given the opportunity to become productive citizens of

Ontario.

EDUCATION FUNDING

Mr David Christopherson (Hamilton West): I'm proud to stand in my place today and say that I stand shoulder to shoulder with the Hamilton school

board trustees, who under the leadership of board chair Judith Bishop took on this government, standing up to you in favour of standing for the kids in Hamilton.

Those nine trustees are to be applauded. The names of those courageous trustees are Ray Mulholland, Wayne Marston, Lillian Orban, Wesley Hicks, Robert Barlow,

Bruce Wallace, Ian Thompson and Reg Woodworth. These trustees said to this government, "You're not putting enough money into the system to give our kids the education they deserve," so they stood

up to you in favour of those kids in Hamilton who need a decent education.

You centralized power in this province in terms of education in a way that would make Stalin proud and then you expect school board trustees to do your dirty

work. You expect them to stand up to Hamiltonians and other citizens across this province and say, "There's not enough money for the kids and we're the ones to blame." Well, that's not going to

happen.

Ottawa-Carleton was the first board. Hamilton is the second board. I urge Hamiltonians to call your trustees and tell them you support their stand in support of

our kids. For those other communities, call your trustees and fall in behind the leadership shown by Ottawa-Carleton and Hamilton. If everybody sticks together you can beat this government, and our

kids deserve no less.

RENAISSANCE FAIRE

Mr John O'Toole (Durham): Mr Speaker, I beg your leave to rise in the House and report on an outstanding event in Durham riding. The third

annual Renaissance Faire took place this past week in Palmer Park in Port Perry. With its minstrels, mimes, buskers, storytellers, artists, craftspersons and a variety of other entertainment, the

event offered something for all ages. This was an opportunity to step back in time to the era of lords, ladies, serfs and vassals.

Unfortunately, there is time to mention only a few of the special events. One of these was a celebrity chess challenge featuring the Borelians and the Uxbridge

Players, who played the role of live chess pieces. There was Elizabethan swordplay provided by Peter Hurley, and a demonstration of dry stone wall building by John Shaw Rimmington.

A few of the other events were clay sculpting for kids, led by Jane Macintosh; the making of banners under the direction of Jennifer Hardie; and a Raku kiln

demonstration, with tea ceremony hosted by Edwin Lougueville. On Sunday there was a coracle building demonstration from Paul Williams, and 16th century folkdance workshops were also part of the

pleasant weekend.

The Renaissance Faire is a relatively new attraction, but it demonstrates the diverse variety of history, talent and enthusiasm among Durham residents. There

were over 20 sponsors, including the Ontario Arts Council, the township of Scugog, the Scugog Chamber of Commerce and the downtown BIA.

This past weekend in Palmer Park was an age of chivalry that is still very much alive in the community, and I'm sad to say the member from York North was unable

to attend.

PREMIER OF ONTARIO

Mr George Smitherman (Toronto Centre-Rosedale): As this legislative session comes to a close, I want to take this opportunity to remind members

and Ontarians about some of the sayings we've been able to use in relation to Ernie Eves.

We talked about Ernie Eves's million-dollar mood swing when he quit one day and ran the next, running up a cost of a million dollars to taxpayers. We said Ernie

Eves has more positions than the Kama Sutra on certain issues. He's like nailing Jell-O to the wall. And we're reminded today of the extent to which this guy will change his mind on any given day.

He is trying to use confusion and make it seem like a strategy.

Earlier today this Premier, who last week said that tax cuts should be delayed, said that the delay may be cancelled in the fall. If we needed any more evidence

of the extent to which that guy, Ernie Eves, is willing to use confusion to create the impression that he knows what he's doing, we had it from that guy today.

Instead of talking about bringing forward these tax cuts in the fall, maybe he should stand in his place and say that he won't liquidate, that he won't have a

fire sale and liquidate the 49% of Hydro One that he proposes to do.

Those guys are so desperate to hang on to power, they will do and say anything.

MATTAWA VOYAGEUR DAYS

Mr AL McDonald (Nipissing): I'd like to personally invite everyone to Mattawa Voyageur Days, July 25 to 28. The town of Mattawa is located 45

minutes east of North Bay. This festival has so much to offer everyone, including a kids' fishing derby, fun in the sun, the Eau Claire Gorge guided tour, dam tour, golf tournament, Christmas in

July turkey dinner, North Bay to Mattawa canoe race, lumberjack contest, dragon boat races, antique car shows, fireworks, tremendous concerts such as Diane Chase, Michelle Wright, Glass Tiger, Rik

Emmett, Kim Mitchell, Ray Lyell and the Storm, Lighthouse and many more.

Wristbands are now on sale, $20 in advance or $25 at the gate. I would like to congratulate and thank Mayor Dean Backer, Jacques Begin and the committee and all

the volunteers who make this festival a great attraction in the Nipissing region. For further information you can visit us at

www.voyageurdays.com or phone 1-800-267-4222.

Interjection.

Mr McDonald: I'd like to repeat that number for the member from James Bay: 1-800-267-4222.

VISITORS

Mr AL McDonald (Nipissing): On a point of privilege, Mr Speaker: We have four guests who drove down from the city of North Bay. It's their first

time here at the Legislature, and I'd like to introduce them: Marc Long, Khouri Abdallah, Chris and Paul Lamont. Welcome.

Ms Marilyn Mushinski (Scarborough Centre): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I'm very pleased to announce that we have some very special ESL

students here from Cedarbrae Collegiate up in the west gallery.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): We also have joining us in the Speaker's gallery today four Ontarians here to receive the internationally

recognized l'Ordre de la Pléiade award for outstanding contributions to French-speaking communities. With us today are Monsieur Roger St-Louis, Yvon St-Arnaud, Madame Manon LePaven and

Monsieur Edmond Chauvin. Please welcome our honoured guests.

MEMBERS' EXPENDITURES REPORT

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): I beg to inform the House that I have today laid upon the table the individual members' expenditures for the fiscal

year 2001-02.

STATUS OF BILL 122

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Yesterday the member for Prince Edward-Hastings introduced Bill 122,

An Act to amend the Ontario Disability Support

Program Act, 1997 to empower the Integrity Commissioner to determine the level of income support.

I have reviewed the bill and find that it is substantially similar to the MPP Compensation Reform Act, Bill 82, of last session. Mr Parsons's bill duplicates the

mechanism in Bill 82 to authorize the Integrity Commissioner to consider the level of and recommend increases in support payments. Such increases, if recommended, would be mandatory and automatic

and would represent a direct allocation of public funds.

Given the great similarity of this bill with Bill 82, the fact that Bill 82 was proposed by a minister of the crown and was accompanied by the Lieutenant

Governor's recommendation, I find that Bill 122 is in fact a money bill and, as standing order 56 stipulates, may only be proposed by a minister of the crown.

I have therefore directed that Bill 122 be removed from the Orders and Notices paper.

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE ON

GENERAL GOVERNMENT

Mr Norm Miller (Parry Sound-Muskoka): I beg leave to present a report from the standing committee on general government and move its

adoption.

Clerk at the Table (Ms Lisa Freedman): Your committee begs to report the following bill with amendment:

Bill 58,

An Act to amend certain statutes in relation to the energy sector / Projet de loi 58, Loi modifiant certaines lois en ce qui concerne le secteur de

l'énergie.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Shall the report be received and adopted?

All those in favour, please say "aye."

All those opposed, please say "nay."

In my opinion, the ayes have it.

Call in the members. This will be a five-minute bell.

The division bells rang from 1351 to 1356.

The Speaker: All those in favour of the motion will please rise one at a time and be recognized by the Clerk.

Ayes

Arnott, Ted

Baird, John R.

Barrett, Toby

Beaubien, Marcel

Chudleigh, Ted

Clark, Brad

Clement, Tony

Coburn, Brian

Cunningham, Dianne

DeFaria, Carl

Dunlop, Garfield

Elliott, Brenda

Eves, Ernie

Flaherty, Jim

Gilchrist, Steve

Gill, Raminder

Guzzo, Garry J.

Hardeman, Ernie

Hastings, John

Hodgson, Chris

Jackson, Cameron

Johns, Helen

Johnson, Bert

Klees, Frank

Martiniuk, Gerry

Maves, Bart

Mazzilli, Frank

McDonald, AL

Miller, Norm

Molinari, Tina R.

Munro, Julia

Mushinski, Marilyn

O'Toole, John

Ouellette, Jerry J.

Runciman, Robert W.

Sampson, Rob

Spina, Joseph

Stewart, R. Gary

Stockwell, Chris

Tascona, Joseph N.

Tsubouchi, David H.

Turnbull, David

Wettlaufer, Wayne

Witmer, Elizabeth

Wood, Bob

Young, David

The Speaker: All those opposed will please rise one at a time and be recognized by the Clerk.

Nays

Agostino, Dominic

Bartolucci, Rick

Bisson, Gilles

Bountrogianni, Marie

Boyer, Claudette

Brown, Michael A.

Bryant, Michael

Christopherson, David

Cleary, John C.

Colle, Mike

Conway, Sean G.

Cordiano, Joseph

Crozier, Bruce

Curling, Alvin

Di Cocco, Caroline

Dombrowsky, Leona

Duncan, Dwight

Gerretsen, John

Gravelle, Michael

Hampton, Howard

Hoy, Pat

Kormos, Peter

Kwinter, Monte

Lalonde, Jean-Marc

Levac, David

Marchese, Rosario

Martin, Tony

McLeod, Lyn

McMeekin, Ted

Parsons, Ernie

Patten, Richard

Peters, Steve

Phillips, Gerry

Prue, Michael

Pupatello, Sandra

Ramsay, David

Ruprecht, Tony

Sergio, Mario

Smitherman, George

Clerk of the House (Mr Claude L. DesRosiers): The ayes are 46; the nays are 39.

The Speaker: I declare the motion carried. Pursuant to the order of the House dated June 10, 2002, the bill is ordered for third reading.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

NIAGARA HEALTH SYSTEM

ELECTIONS ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 SUR LES ÉLECTIONS

AU SEIN DU SYSTÈME DE SANTÉ

DE NIAGARA

Mr Kormos moved first reading of the following bill:

Bill 114,

An Act to provide for the election of members of the Board of Trustees of the Niagara Health System / Projet de loi 114, Loi prévoyant

l'élection des membres du conseil d'administration du Système de santé de Niagara.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry?

All those in favour, please say "aye."

All those opposed, please say "nay."

In my opinion, the ayes have it. Carried.

The member for a short statement?

Mr Peter Kormos (Niagara Centre): The Niagara Health System was imposed upon Niagara region by this government's restructuring of our health

system and hospitals. This bill provides that at least 12 of the trustees of the Niagara Health System are to be elected to represent the area municipalities of the regional municipality of

Niagara, providing for democracy, direct representation and accountability.

CHILD AND FAMILY SERVICES

AMENDMENT ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 MODIFIANT LA LOI

SUR LES SERVICES À L'ENFANCE

ET À LA FAMILLE

Mr Bartolucci moved first reading of the following bill:

Bill 130,

An Act to amend the Child and Family Services Act to allow one Children's Aid Society access to information held by another Children's Aid

Society / Projet de loi 130, Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les services à l'enfance et à la famille afin de permettre à une société d'aide à l'enfance d'avoir

accès aux renseignements détenus par une autre société d'aide à l'enfance.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

The member for a short statement?

Mr Rick Bartolucci (Sudbury): Thank you very much, Speaker, for a very short statement. This bill amends the Child and Family Services Act to

fill a loophole presently in the act which denies access to or transfer of information. This has had tragic consequences on certainly several cases across this province. I highlight the Gravel

case, which is an ongoing public case that certainly would not have reached the stage it's at now had this amendment been in place.

MOTIONS

STANDING COMMITTEE ON

PUBLIC ACCOUNTS

Hon Chris Stockwell (Minister of Environment and Energy, Government House Leader): I move that the standing committee on public accounts be

authorized to adjourn to St John's, Newfoundland and Labrador, to attend the 23rd annual conference of the Canadian Council of Public Accounts Committees.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

AND RESPONSES

CANADA DAY

Hon Carl DeFaria (Minister of Citizenship, minister responsible for seniors): It is my great pleasure and privilege to rise in the House today

to speak to Canada Day 2002. Personally, this is a very special Canada Day. I was recently appointed Minister of Citizenship by Premier Ernie Eves, a position that brings me closer to the diverse

community organizations and individuals I have been working with for many years.

Since the day that I arrived in this country as a young man from Portugal, I have been deeply honoured to be a part of this country and of the great province

of Ontario. Ontario is a province of promise and opportunity, a province where human rights are respected and protected, where a young man's dream can become a reality. I am forever grateful.

I know my colleagues can all agree that we live in the best province and in the best country in the world. Ontario's status within Canada is secure. Our

economic strength has helped us create a great quality of life for Ontarians.

As a government, we are continuing to work hard to strengthen Ontario's economy and create more jobs. Ontario receives nearly 60% of all immigrants to Canada,

almost 150,000 this last year. By 2016, Ontario is expected to grow to nearly 14 million. Ontario is the choice of many newcomers to Canada because Ontario is a province of promise and

opportunity.

This government is committed to helping skilled newcomers enter the labour force quickly and to become full participants in the Ontario economy. For me, and

for millions more who have settled here, Ontario has met its promise and more, and I know that other newcomers to Canada feel the same way.

I think we can all agree that Canada and the province of Ontario are amazing places to live, work and raise a family. The United Nations has named Canada as

one of the best places in the world to live.

The ideals of Canada Day go to the very notion of the society we should be creating in this country, a society where diversity is embraced, where every member

of society is treated with respect, a society in which all of our children know they are valued members. Canada Day is important for all of us because it is vital that we remember where we have

been and how far we have come.

It is also a chance to do more. It is the renewed opportunity for us to consider the kind of society we live in and to make it better for everyone. Now more

than ever, we must take steps to ensure that Canada remains a land of promise and opportunity.

This is the kind of province we are working hard to build. I know that government members are with me in trying to realize this dream for Ontario.

On a final note, I want to invite all members of this House to join me on the front lawn of the Legislature at Queen's Park on July 1, Canada Day. We are

expecting thousands to take

part in the fun at our annual Canada Day celebrations from 11 am to 5 pm, so please join us as we commemorate the 135th birthday of our great nation.

Mr Tony Ruprecht (Davenport): It is absolutely true that our forebears built a country that's the envy of the world. It is also true that the

United Nations for more than four years in a row has said that we are the best place in which to raise a family and in which to live.

But upon this minister's shoulders is a grave responsibility, and that is to maintain that which we have. Right now, as we speak, we have the danger of losing

that distinction of being the best country in the world. I'll tell you why.

There are certain categories the United Nations looks at when it makes these adjustments, when it makes these judgments. One of the categories is a good health

care system. Our critics, Sandra Pupatello and Lyn McLeod, will tell you that you've closed hospitals. The lineups are longer. You've let nurses go and not rehired them. We are in danger.

Our education critic, Gerard Kennedy, will tell you that you have closed schools and you have closed swimming pools. In addition, you have also fired nearly a

quarter of all music teachers. They have disappeared from the classroom. Despite an increase in immigration, the number of schools with ESL programs has dropped 31%. We are in danger.

Our transportation critics, Mike Colle and Pat Hoy, will tell us Toronto is gridlocked and we are in danger. Your government has to ensure that there will be

enough money and funding for transportation, and I'm speaking about public transportation. You need the money.

Our energy critics, Sean Conway and Michael Bryant, will tell you about the boondoggle in the energy system. You are about to sell part of Hydro, our crown

jewel right here in Ontario. We are in danger.

What about affordable housing? Our critic for housing, Mr Dominic Agostino, will tell you there is no affordable housing in Toronto. You haven't built any. We

are in danger.

Finally, let me simply say this about your statement that this government is committed to helping skilled newcomers enter the labour force quickly and become

full participants in the Ontario economy. I want to tell you, that too needs improvement. We are also in danger.

Why is it that we have right now very skilled workers -- doctors, lawyers, accountants and all those who have been foreign-trained with great educational

backgrounds -- driving taxis, cleaning restaurants, delivering pizzas? It surely cannot be this Canada and this Toronto, Ontario, that this minister is speaking about. We are in danger.

Upon your shoulders is the responsibility to try to ensure that you bring back this Ontario, that you bring back this country to its former glory. You have

that responsibility, and if you don't do it, even though you might think it's funny, McGuinty and the Liberals are ready to take that challenge into the future.

We are in danger. We are in danger of losing this great status that the United Nations has bestowed upon us. I simply say to you, on behalf of the Liberal

caucus and Dalton McGuinty, long live this free Canada and God save the Queen.

Mr Rosario Marchese (Trinity-Spadina): I want to join the --

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Take your seat. We will start over.

Mr Alvin Curling (Scarborough-Rouge River): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I just want to take a second to say that my colleague from

Parkdale has spoken so eloquently of that danger. Let's make sure we don't lose that. Let's have Canada ruling as he talks about. Long live Canada.

The Speaker: The member for Trinity-Spadina.

Mr Marchese: I want to join the Minister of Citizenship in celebrating Canada Day and in celebrating the statement he has made and his remarks

about immigrants. This is a country and a province of immigrants -- we all know that -- and they work hard. It's a country where these immigrants, each and every one, in the past, those who are

coming and those who will come, come to work hard. Why? Because, as the Minister of Citizenship said, this is a place where a young man's dream can become a reality. That is true. For many

immigrants, that in fact has been the case.

Mr Peter Kormos (Niagara Centre): Young men and young women.

Mr Marchese: Young men and young women. He meant it generically, I'm sure, the royal "we."

But it is also true, I would say to the Minister of Citizenship, that it hasn't worked for everybody, not all of the time. You will probably admit that. While

people work hard and make an honest living and some do well in this society and in this economy, there are some who are not so lucky and so fortunate. Those who work for minimum wage come to mind.

It is true that those who work for $6.85 an hour probably are not so happy with that wage, and that's why New Democrats believe that in order to give young men and women the opportunities they

desperately want and need, we should help out a little bit. We should increase the minimum wage, because that's part of economic justice, it's part of a struggle for fairness, and we are committed

to that struggle; we think you are too. But if you are, you should help out and deal with the issue of minimum wage.

The issue of access to trades and professions has been mentioned, so I won't belabour that. But it is true that many immigrants bring a great deal of cultural

capital that we're not using. We're wasting it in fact. If we only tapped into it, we could use it in those areas where we have desperate shortages, like doctors. Many of the immigrants who come

here are doctors but, as I say, you are not tapping into that resource, and you should.

Our strength in this country is our diversity. Diversity is strength. We have a great deal of cultural capital that we should be investing in. We should be

investing in those languages that people bring. So many linguistic communities bring a second language and, rather than suppressing it, we should invest. We should invest and support those boards

globalized economy; because this is a global village.

Mr Gregory S. Sorbara (Vaughan-King-Aurora): You don't support a globalized economy.

Mr Marchese: Well, Liberals are strongly supportive of a globalized economy.

I say it is indeed a global village, and in that respect we should be investing in the learning of third languages. Not only is it psychologically good and

pedagogically sound but it makes sense economically that we should invest a couple of dollars in those boards of education that are providing second, third and fourth languages. So I say that our

diversity is our strength but we need to put some money into it.

I say to you as well that socially this is one of the most beautiful countries in the world. Where else do you have over 120, 130 different linguistic and

racial communities settling than in this country and this province? Where else except in this country?

Mr Sorbara: New York City.

Mr Marchese: New York City is a good, beautiful city too -- very global indeed. Canada is equally as beautiful and as great. The day that we

begin to cross-culturally marry, as indeed is happening, when the day comes when everyone in this province and this country feels good to marry across cultures, it will indeed be the most beautiful

country in the world. And we're getting there.

Interjection.

Mr Marchese: I'm saying to you, Minister of Citizenship, that it's happening, and it will in the future. We will see more cross-cultural

marriages than ever before. I say that is a beautiful thing we are witnessing in this country.

I know many people on July 1 will celebrate being Canadian, happily celebrating our diversity and pride in being Canadian. I know, Minister of Citizenship,

that many across this country and this province will join you in celebrating what we value so much, and that is our diversity as Canadians.

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Hon John R. Baird (Associate Minister of Francophone Affairs): Mr Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to move a motion with respect to certain

government business and this evening's sitting. Could I read the motion first, if that's possible?

I move that orders G80, G81 and G86 be called immediately; and

That upon the questions being put, if recorded divisions are requested, they be deferred until the routine proceeding "Deferred votes" on Wednesday, June 26,

2002; and

That, notwithstanding the order of the House dated June 24, 2002, when the House adjourns at 6 pm today, it stand adjourned until 1:30 pm on Wednesday, June

26, 2002.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Does the motion carry? Agreed.

HYDRO ONE INC. DIRECTORS

AND OFFICERS ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 SUR LES ADMINISTRATEURS

ET LES DIRIGEANTS DE HYDRO ONE INC.

Resuming the debate adjourned on June 18, 2002, on the motion for second reading of Bill 80,

An Act respecting directors and officers of Hydro One Inc. and its

subsidiaries / Projet de loi 80, Loi concernant les administrateurs et les dirigeants de Hydro One Inc. et de ses filiales.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Pursuant to the order of the House dated June 19, 2002, I am now required to put the question.

On June 13, Mr Gilchrist moved second reading of Bill 80. Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry?

All those in favour will please say "aye."

All those opposed will please say "nay."

In my opinion, the ayes have it.

Call in the members. This will be a five-minute bell.

Pursuant to standing order 28(h), there's been a request that the vote on Bill 80,

An Act respecting directors and officers of Hydro One, be deferred until

June 26, 2002.

NUTRIENT MANAGEMENT ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 SUR LA GESTION

DES ÉLÉMENTS NUTRITIFS

Mrs Johns moved third reading of the following bill:

Bill 81,

An Act to provide standards with respect to the management of materials containing nutrients used on lands, to provide for the making of regulations

with respect to farm animals and lands to which nutrients are applied, and to make related amendments to other Acts / Projet de loi 81, Loi prévoyant des normes à l'égard de la

gestion des matières contenant des éléments nutritifs utilisées sur les biens-fonds, prévoyant la prise de règlements à l'égard des animaux d'élevage et

des biens-fonds sur lesquels des éléments nutritifs sont épandus et apportant des modifications connexes à d'autres lois.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Pursuant to the order of the House dated June 20, 2002, I'm now required to put the question.

Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry?

All those in favour will please say "aye."

All those opposed will please say "nay."

In my opinion, the ayes have it.

Pursuant to standing order 28(h), there has been a request to defer the vote, so the vote will be deferred until June 26.

RESCUING CHILDREN FROM SEXUAL

EXPLOITATION ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002

SUR LA DÉLIVRANCE DES ENFANTS

DE L'EXPLOITATION SEXUELLE

Mr Stockwell, on behalf of Mr Young, moved third reading of the following bill:

Bill 86,

An Act to rescue children trapped in the misery of prostitution and other forms of sexual exploitation and to amend the Highway Traffic Act / Projet

de loi 86, Loi visant à délivrer les enfants prisonniers de la prostitution et d'autres formes d'exploitation sexuelle et modifiant le Code de la route.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Pursuant to the order of the House dated June 24, 2002, I'm now required to put the question.

Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry?

All those in favour will please say "aye."

All those opposed will please say "nay."

In my opinion, the ayes have it.

I've been given notice under standing order 28(

h) to defer the vote until June 26.

ORAL QUESTIONS

EDUCATION FUNDING

Mr Dalton McGuinty (Leader of the Opposition): I have a question to the Minister of Education. Minister, every day now we're getting another

example of how your government is failing Ontario's students. We've heard from parents of children with special learning needs whose needs are going unmet. Yesterday we learned that 70% of students

in the applied stream did not pass the literacy test, which means you're putting these young people at risk of dropping out.

We continue to learn that board after board is telling you they simply cannot both balance their budget and deliver on their important obligation to ensure

that children are having all of their educational needs met. Boards are telling us that more cuts are translating into fewer teachers, fewer psychiatrists, fewer ESL staff and bigger classes. More

and more Ontario boards, as you will recognize, are now standing up for students. Ottawa, Toronto and now Hamilton trustees are saying that if they've got to choose, they're putting kids first.

My question to you on behalf of Ontario's students is, when are you going to start to put them first?

Hon Elizabeth Witmer (Deputy Premier, Minister of Education): Contrary to what the Leader of the Opposition has stated, we have actually

increased each year the funding for students in the province of Ontario. I am pleased to say that this year there was an increase from $13.86 billion to $14.26 billion. That is a 2.6% increase on

an enrolment growth of only 0.4%.

We have continued to address the needs of students. Our funding formula makes sure that students, no matter where they live, have equal access and receive the

same financial support anywhere in the province of Ontario.

Mr McGuinty: Maybe you haven't noticed, Madam Minister, but school board deficits are popping up around this province like mushrooms. London

tonight is facing its decision time. The Thames Valley District School Board can either slash $15 million or not balance their budget. Slashing $15 million means they're going to lose 12 special-ed

teachers, two psychologists and nine speech and language staff. It also means the loss of a special busing program that brings high school students in from neighbouring rural communities for

special-ed programs they can't access in their own communities.

I'm hoping that you're beginning to understand the urgency of the situation here, Madam Minister. Boards, parents and children are looking for a champion of

public education. Instead, what they have is somebody who is committed to putting half a billion dollars into private schools.

I am asking you again, why is it you continue to fail Ontario's students?

Hon Mrs Witmer: Once again, the Leader of the Opposition has his facts incorrect. We have not put half a billion dollars into private schools,

and he knows full well that we have not done so. However, I am very pleased to say that we have announced in the last few months an additional $556 million despite the fact that many boards in the

province are actually seeing a decrease in enrolment, and that is indeed the case with the Thames Valley District School Board.

Mr McGuinty: Madam Minister, you seem reluctant to admit a couple of things. First of all, you took close to $2 billion out of public

education in Ontario. Secondly, while you may not yet have put half a billion dollars into private schools, you are telling me that commitment of yours is solemn and unwavering. That's the real

issue here.

Here's what Hamilton trustee Wes Hicks said last night: "It is time to stand up for the kids. I have seen the deterioration of our schools, staffing

reductions, cuts everywhere. This system has taken enough. A balanced budget will hurt our system." What you are doing, Madam Minister, is balancing school board budgets on the backs of our

children. I think that is wrong. I think the right thing to do is to ensure all of our children today, especially in a knowledge-based economy, are having all their learning needs met. I ask you

again, why is it that you continue to fail Ontario's students?

Hon Mrs Witmer: I can't believe the Leader of the Opposition continues to deny the fact that we have added over half a billion dollars in

education spending in the last two months. In fact, if we take a look at the Hamilton-Wentworth District School Board, we have increased their spending by $7.5 million, to over $368 million, an

increase of 2.1% based on an enrolment that is expected to decline by 0.1%, and they have $11.1 million in flexible funding.

I would just remind the Leader of the Opposition that when you were in power between 1985 and 1990, you made a commitment to increase the share of provincial

funding to 60%. I regret to say that not only did you not increase it to 60%, but it actually slipped from 46.6% to 44.9%. That's how Liberals keep their promises.

LONG-TERM CARE

Mr Dalton McGuinty (Leader of the Opposition): My question is to the Premier. Our seniors are not getting the care and the attention they need

in your Ontario. They are not getting the care and attention they need in our long-term-care facilities. Residents in Ontario long-term-care facilities are getting just one bath per week. Last

month some 20 angry residents from the Leisureworld facility in North York came to Queen's Park, and each and every one of those 20 said they were only getting one bath a week.

I'm asking you, is this the standard you would have us aspire to for our parents and our grandparents? Do you think it is right that they are entitled to one

bath a week?

Hon Ernie Eves (Premier, Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): I think the Associate Minister of Long-Term Care can respond.

Hon Dan Newman (Associate Minister of Health and Long-Term Care): Our government remains committed to ensuring that all residents of

long-term-care facilities live in a safe environment and are indeed treated with dignity, respect and the highest level of care.

Our primary concern is for the residents of long-term-care facilities. We take the concerns expressed about compliance very seriously. The Ministry of Health

and Long-Term Care's comprehensive long-term-care facility manual sets out the operational requirements for all facilities.

If the Leader of the Opposition has a concern about a compliance issue or with respect to any piece of legislation in the ministry or a regulation pertaining

to a long-term-care facility, there are three options he can take: he can launch a complaint with the facility administration; he can launch a complaint with the local community care access centre;

or he can launch a complaint with the appropriate regional office of the Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care. All formal complaints will be followed up by one of the 42 compliance advisers within

the ministry. Each and every complaint about a long-term-care facility is investigated by ministry staff.

Mr McGuinty: There were 20 parents and grandparents who came here just last month and told you that they're getting only one bath a week.

If you are convicted of first-degree murder today in Ontario and sentenced to 25 years without parole, do you know how many baths you are entitled to? One a

day. In a provincial institution, you will also get one bath a day.

I ask you again: do you really believe these are people who broke the rules? I'm talking about our parents and grandparents, who played by all the rules, paid

their taxes, raised their families and now find themselves in a position where they need help. Why can you justify a bath a day for a felon but one a week for our parents and grandparents?

Hon Mr Newman: Obviously, we are concerned about any reports suggesting there's a violation of any act pertaining to the ministry or any

policies governing long-term-care facilities. That's why the long-term-care facility manual and the acts which govern long-term-care facilities in our province speak to the obligations of a

facility to ensure that residents' daily needs and their activities of daily living are met; that means walking, eating, bathing. In fact,

section B3.52 of the long-term-care facility manual states

that each resident's hygiene and grooming care shall meet his or her needs and shall consider his or her preferences whenever possible. In other words, should there be a need for increased personal

care, the resident care plan would reflect this need and give clear direction to staff accordingly.

Mr McGuinty: Our parents and our grandparents who find themselves in long-term-care facilities today in Ontario find themselves in trouble

because you, Mr Minister, and you, Mr Premier, are failing to take an active interest in their welfare. You just can't ride around in your limo and wait for our parents and grandparents, many of

whom suffer from dementia, to register some kind of concerns and file some kind of formal complaint that is somehow supposed to trickle up to you before you're going to begin to act.

They're getting one bath a week. You should be ashamed of that. You should be doing whatever you can, breaking down all the barriers. Where the hell is your

Red Tape Commission now, when it comes to ensuring our parents and grandparents are getting more than one bath a week?

You've known about this for a long time now. I ask you, Mr Minister: what are you going to do for our parents and grandparents, people who played by all the

rules, paid their taxes, raised their families and find themselves in need of care? What are you going to do for them?

Hon Mr Newman: That's why, with long-term-care facilities, we have announced 20,000 new long-term-care beds being built in this province; a

$1.2-billion commitment to our seniors; home care funding up by --

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Order. The member for Kingston and the Islands, come to order, please. Associate Minister?

Hon Mr Newman: Home care funding is up by 70% since 1994-95; nearly $1.2 billion for community care access centres for home care; a new

placement regulation to get seniors who are on waiting lists for long-term-care centres into those facilities quicker; the $1.2-billion investment with the 20,000 new beds; and in the budget this

past week, $200 million for long-term care. That's going to help with the resident care component as well as with the expansion of the beds.

The member opposite ought to know that in 1995, when his party was the government, there was not one investigation into a long-term-care facility in this

province.

HYDRO RATES

Mr Howard Hampton (Kenora-Rainy River): I have a question for the Premier. Yesterday, the Independent Electricity Market Operator said that

backup electricity supplies will fall to dangerously low levels in July and August and again from October to December. The Independent Electricity Market Operator warns that higher hydro rates are

inevitable as a result.

My question to you, Premier, is, will you stop your hydro deregulation scheme now, before consumers, businesses and industries are hit with electricity

shortages and higher hydro prices?

Hon Ernie Eves (Premier, Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): There is not going to be an electricity shortage and higher and higher

prices.

Mr Hampton: Premier, the Independent Electricity Market Operator continues to put out statements telling Ontarians just that, and they're the

people who are actually doing the surveys.

Your budget says that you intend to sell off more of our hydro generating stations. That will make the situation worse, because your hydro deregulation scheme

lets the most expensive bid accepted to supply hydro set the price. That means that if your corporate friends on Bay Street get their hands on the coal-fired generating stations, they will send

hydro rates through the roof.

Premier, again I ask you, before hydro prices go any higher, before we face those shortages of supply, will you stop your hydro privatization and deregulation

scheme, before you put Ontario's economy at risk and the personal health of our citizens at risk?

Hon Mr Eves: That is not what the IMO has said at all. They have said that prices are established on market supply and demand. They expect

that prices will fluctuate. I'm sure the honourable member is aware that prices are remaining below -- even last Sunday, which was the hottest day on record for June 23, the average price was 3.38

cents per kilowatt hour on that date. That is far below the guaranteed price by OPG of 3.8 cents, and far below the disaster that you've been predicting for the last many months. You haven't been

right yet.

The reality is, competition in the marketplace does work. It will be fluctuating up and down, obviously, as energy needs go up and down. With respect to

shortages, the IMO states that energy production capacity and capability is generally expected to be well above demand levels each month for the outlook period, being the next 18 months.

Mr Hampton: So said spokespersons in California for about eight months.

Today the Ontario Electricity Coalition also released a new poll. The number of people opposed to your dirty deal to privatize our hydro continues to increase.

Now more than 72% of Ontarians oppose hydro privatization. That means you're offside with three out of four people in Ontario. You and your Bay Street friends are trying to take people in a

direction they don't want to go. Premier, it's a simple question: will you listen to the people of Ontario and stop your dirty deal to sell off our hydro resources?

Hon Mr Eves: There is no dirty deal to sell Hydro One. In fact, we have committed that the government will maintain control of the Hydro One

entity.

URBAN ISSUES SUMMIT

Mr Howard Hampton (Kenora-Rainy River): As you know, there is a Toronto summit happening over the next few days. We heard yesterday from your

government spokesperson that your government really doesn't have a position. You don't have anything to take to the summit. We understand the Liberals want to study the problem.

Premier, since you don't have a strategy of your own, let me suggest to you some ideas that we want to put forward. Since you have downloaded the cost of

social housing without any revenue, since you have downloaded many of the costs of urban transportation, and transportation in general, without any revenue, how about transferring part of the land

transfer tax? How about providing some of the gasoline tax to municipalities so they can get to work dealing with issues like affordable housing and urban transit? Would you do that, Premier?

Hon Ernie Eves (Premier, Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): I'm sure the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, who is attending the

summit, would like to respond.

Hon Chris Hodgson (Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing): The minister of urban affairs is also going to be at the summit. We welcome

these ideas, this exchange of ideas. I'm looking forward to new ideas that come out of the summit. I would like to say that the third party has been interested in urban issues for a long time. I've

read their suggestions. At least they put them on paper. The Liberals want to study it, like you've said in your

preamble. I'm looking forward to seeing their ideas.

We've also set up, as you know, a growth panel chaired by Hazel McCallion, because Toronto fits into a larger region, and it's always been the province's

historic position to make sure Toronto remains strong and to work with our partners.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Supplementary? The member for Beaches-East York.

Mr Michael Prue (Beaches-East York): I thank you for having read our urban vision, Mr Minister. In that urban vision, we have addressed

affordable housing as one of the key components. However, the deal you have signed with the federal government you've done on the backs of the municipalities, on the backs of the churches, on the

backs of the charities. You have contributed as a province and as a government almost nothing toward the monies for affordable housing.

We believe we can build some 8,000 units in Ontario of affordable housing and another 1,800 of supportive housing for the homeless on our streets by dedicating

part of the land transfer tax. Why not commit yourself to a real deal by giving cities the money from the land transfer tax so that they can build the affordable housing and so that our homeless

can get off the streets?

Interjections.

Hon Mr Hodgson: I'm not sure -- it's so noisy in here, I couldn't hear the question. I could ascertain, by the thumping across, that he was

talking about affordable housing. For this member to ask a question on affordable housing really pushes the envelope in terms of nerve. Did you ever figure out with your special tax on multi-res

apartments in Toronto, where you raised the tax rate four times, what it is if you paid for a condo versus an apartment? It works out to over $200 an apartment unit. You went out of your way to

vote for that. Have you ever counted how many people you threw out of their apartment or denied the opportunity to have affordable housing because of your actions when you were on council?

HOME CARE

Mr Dalton McGuinty (Leader of the Opposition): My question is to the Minister of Health. Three weeks ago, you had the opportunity to meet

Marlo Leatham and her family. Marlo, as you will remember, is a 13-year-old --

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Order. We'll let the member speak. The leader of the official opposition has the floor now. You can start over. I

apologize to the leader of the official opposition.

Mr McGuinty: To the Minister of Health, a few weeks ago, in fact three weeks to the day, you were introduced to Marlo Leatham, a 13-year-old

London girl who has cerebral palsy and suffers from spastic quadriplegia. As you know, she can't walk, she can't dress herself, she can't even roll over. You cut her home care to 15 hours a week

from the original of 54. Her parents came all the way to Queen's Park, looking to you for help. You assured them that within some 24 to 72 hours you would have an answer for them when it came to

long-term help. The House is rising in two days. The Leathams wrote to you some 18 months ago. They have spent $10,000 on lawyers' fees, going through an appeal process. They're now looking to

you.

I need an answer on behalf of the Leathams today. I need your assurance by the end of this day, Minister. You told them 72 hours some three weeks ago; it's now

been three weeks. They need an answer today. I need your commitment, sir, that you will provide an answer to the Leathams with respect to their need for Marlo for long-term help.

Hon Tony Clement (Minister of Health and Long-Term Care): I can inform this House that since this issue was last raised in the Legislature, we

have had a short-term solution as a post-operative period for the individual involved. Certainly discussions are ongoing for the longer-term solution, but for the next several weeks, there is a

short-term solution, which is now being used to deal with the short-term issues as we work out a longer-term solution.

Mr McGuinty: Minister, I'm going to be blunt with you: the Leathams do not trust you. Their short-term solution, as you call it, is up in some

two weeks. The House is going to rise in some two days. They are concerned you're going to renege on your commitment. They've asked me to ask you to give them a commitment today, by the end of the

day. After all, as I just said a few moments ago, they wrote to you some 18 months ago and you did nothing. They spent $10,000 on lawyers -- not on home care -- trying to appeal your process. They

had to come here to meet with you to try to embarrass you into doing something. You gave them an assurance you would fix this within some 24 to 72 hours. It's been three weeks.

I'm asking you again, on behalf of the Leatham family, can you agree that you will, by the end of the day today, come up with some long-term solution for Marlo

Leatham?

Hon Mr Clement: I'm heartened that the honourable member acknowledged in his supplementary question that in fact we have a short-term solution

that carries the family through for the four weeks after the operation, which he did not include in his opening question.

Having said that, I will repeat for the honourable member's edification and, more importantly, for this House that in fact we do have, as I say, a multi-week,

a four-week, solution that is in place that was put in place, I would say, fairly quickly and to the satisfaction of the family. I'm not trying to speak on their behalf, but that was what I was led

to believe. Certainly we, in the intervening days we have left, are working on the long-term solution. That's all I'm prepared to say at this time.

BIG TICKET LOTTERY

Mr Frank Klees (Oak Ridges): My question is to the Attorney General. Two weeks ago, Attorney General, I brought to your attention the matter

of the Big Ticket Lottery. The concern was that the Ontario Lottery and Gaming Corp was effectively in competition with charities in this province. You undertook to meet with representatives of the

lotteries at that time. I predicted to the House that, in your good wisdom, you would then take the steps and direct the lottery corporation to get out of this business and to stop competing with

charities, who are having a difficult enough time as it is.

Can you confirm for us today what steps you are taking, and that you, in fact, have given direction for the lottery corporation to get out of this

business?

Hon David Young (Attorney General, minister responsible for native affairs): I thank the member for bringing this matter forward, not just

today, but as he has in the House previously and as he has informally on many occasions.

As the member --

Applause.

Hon Mr Young: Yes, I think applause is in order.

As the member indicated, I did have an opportunity to meet with a number of the charities involved. I met with the Princess Margaret Hospital Foundation, the

Heart and Stroke Foundation, the Canadian Cancer Society and the Canadian National Institute for the Blind.

Perhaps more importantly, what I did was I listened. I listened and I considered what they had to say. I considered the fact they were concerned that the

operation of the Big Ticket Lottery was in some way, shape or form interfering with their own fundraising efforts. As a result of that and after conferring with many of my colleagues, the OLGC and

my predecessor, Minister Hudak, a decision was made to not continue the Big Ticket Lottery.

Mr Klees: I want to commend the Attorney General first of all for listening, and second and most important, for taking the action he did.

Attorney General, I'm pleased, as I'm sure all charities in this province are, at the action you've taken. What concerns me is tomorrow, the next day and the

next time a creative idea comes out of the Ontario Lottery and Gaming Corp that may well once again put them into competition with charities.

Can you tell us what steps you're taking to ensure that this type of competition will not come against our charities in this province again?

Hon Mr Young: Indeed, what we have done is we have established a dialogue with these very important institutions and organizations. I want to

say to you, on behalf of the Ernie Eves government, we support their efforts. They perform very important work in our society, they help individuals who are in many respects the most vulnerable

individuals who have health challenges, and we as a government are there to assist them because, indeed, they are assisting Ontarians.

We have established a dialogue with them. We have indicated to them we will continue to discuss these sorts of matters with them before any decisions are made.

Indeed, one has to remember that in this area, the area of gaming, there needs to be an appropriate balance. One has to balance the proceeds that come from the Ontario Lottery and Gaming Corp. Some

90% of those proceeds go to hospitals across this province and to community groups. That obviously performs an important service for the people of Ontario. At the same time, we must be respectful

and respective of the charities involved.

PICKERING NUCLEAR

GENERATING STATION

Mr Michael Bryant (St Paul's): My question is for the Minister of Energy and it is about the Pickering A nuclear plant restart. It's months

behind schedule, with $1.5 billion in overruns. What happened, and what have you been doing to fix it?

Hon Chris Stockwell (Minister of Environment and Energy, Government House Leader): I was meeting with the chair of the OPG just last week

discussing exactly that issue. Yes, it is months behind

schedule and it's over budget. It's unacceptable. He outlined some issues that he found concerning that they've addressed with respect to

putting it on the right footing and getting it in in a reasonable length of time and within the budget now that has been allocated. I can tell you that they are cognisant and very aware of the

situation. They had some difficulties, and after the meeting with the chair of the OPG, he's given me an undertaking that it will come in on time with the new

schedule and that the budget will be

met.

Mr Bryant: As a result of the failure to get Pickering A started up on time, we have what the IMO electricity referee has called reduced

reserve levels. As a result of the reduced reserved levels, the IMO says -- these are my words -- that there will be an upward pressure on market prices. So as a result of your government's failure

to get Pickering A started on time, electricity bills will be higher than they would have otherwise been had the government done its job on the Pickering A refurbishment.

When the Provincial Auditor brought this to your attention on June 6, you said, "No, the prices will not go up." Will you admit now that you were wrong to say

that and that the IMO has in fact confirmed the Provincial Auditor's assessment? And will you take responsibility for the prices going up as a result of the Pickering A nuclear failure that took

place as a result of something the Ministry of Energy did wrong?

Hon Mr Stockwell: I won't admit that, because that's not accurate. The fact is, if you read the entire annual report, it states very clearly

that the IMO does not expect electricity shortages in the province at any time during the 18-month period or beyond. The IMO states that the energy production capability is generally expected to be

well above energy demand levels in the outlook period, which is 18 months. Prices will fluctuate, they suggest, as the weather heats up and the market demand goes up and down. We've never denied

that. The IMO has also said with their outlook forecast that they have precluded, they've excluded, the Pickering plant. They've always said that we have a supply of energy that's sufficient. So I

won't admit that, because it's not accurate.

I understand what you're pointing to, but you've got to read the whole report. The whole report finally comes down to the fact that the IMO said there will be

no electricity shortages; they do not expect electricity shortages in the 18-month period. Reserves are slightly lower than they were in the April 2002 supply adequacy report, and prices will

fluctuate depending on the weather. You can't take selective passages. What you have to do is, when you open the report you start on page 1 and you have to read it all. You know when you're

finished? When you take the last page and close it and there's nothing left to read.

FIRE MARSHAL'S GUIDELINE

Mr R. Gary Stewart (Peterborough): My question is for the Minister of Public Safety and Security. I know you've heard from a number of

concerned members on this side of the House about a new guideline issued by the Ontario fire marshal. The guideline recommends to municipalities that 10 firefighters be on the scene of a fire

within 10 minutes of a call 90% of the time.

I've held a number of meetings with people in my constituency -- firefighters, municipal officials and others -- about the difficulties in implementing this

guideline. For small communities, and in particular large rural constituencies like my own, the 10 in 10 guideline is unrealistic. Fire safety is definitely a priority for my community, but

government solutions must take into account differences in municipal resources. Many of our municipal partners feel this guideline does not do that. I understand that the fire marshal operates at

arm's length from the government but, Minister, how are municipalities to interpret the fire marshal's guideline?

Hon Robert W. Runciman (Minister of Public Safety and Security): I want to thank the member for Peterborough for raising the issue. We have

discussed this as well with a number of other government members who've brought this to my attention. In my first meeting with the fire marshal, this issue was raised and I was assured that it was

strictly a guideline and that municipalities should not be concerned about its implications. But I think it's fair to say the concern continues to grow and, based on that, I asked the fire marshal

to issue a clarification, which was done a week to 10 days ago, which was circulated to all municipalities explaining that this was a guideline and not a requirement. But I gather concern is still

alive and well, and we are attempting to address it.

Mr Stewart: Minister, I appreciate that you have been willing to listen to the concerns that I and other caucus members have brought forward

on this issue. But what about implementation? Does it adequately account for the differences between rural and urban, large municipalities and small, and what about the risks? I understand that in

the US they have a program for urban and a different one for rural areas.

Minister, now that the fire marshal has issued a formal communiqué, aren't our fire safety partners at risk of being held legally responsible for not

adhering to the minister's guidelines?

Hon Mr Runciman: I think that is the major concern of municipalities, especially small rural and large rural municipalities, with respect to

liability. That has been raised with officials in the ministry and they have assured me that this does in no way, shape or form put municipalities in the situation where they're facing additional

liabilities.

I have to say that the member and I discussed the issue of other jurisdictions having varying guidelines, depending upon the size of the municipality, the

population, the nature of the volunteer or full-time fire service. We will be pursuing that issue to see if we can have those kinds of distinctions recognizing the differences in

municipalities.

PRIVATE HEALTH CARE SERVICES

Ms Shelley Martel (Nickel Belt): My question is to the Premier. Premier, last week you refused to reconsider your plan for more for-profit

health care delivery in Ontario, and New Democrats believe this will come at the expense of patient care because dollars that should go completely into patient care end up being diverted into

profits.

We understand that in the last seven months your current chief of staff was a paid lobbyist for a for-profit health care corporation. Steve Pengelly worked for

Endopisis Medical Inc, lobbying for hospitals, privatization and outsourcing. We wonder if this company has any relation to Endopisis Medical Imaging Clinics, located at the same address.

Premier, does your decision to establish private MRI and CAT scan clinics have anything to do with your office's ties to for-profit health care

corporations?

Hon Ernie Eves (Premier, Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): I don't have any ties to private sector, for-profit health care clinics, and

If you will note, in the budget -- and the Minister of Health has indicated it several times since -- we are looking at putting MRIs and other diagnostic

procedures in private facilities that already exist for other purposes. That is where we are looking at expanding the number of procedures that are available to the people in Ontario to make it

more accessible.

Ms Martel: Premier, if I might, your connections to the for-profit health sector don't stop there. Before she rejoined your staff, Kristina

Filmer, who is now senior adviser to your chief of staff, was a lobbyist for Canadian Radiation Oncology Services, the for-profit cancer clinic which is located at Sunnybrook. Charles Harnick,

former Conservative cabinet minister, is registered as a lobbyist for the same for-profit company. This is the same for-profit clinic that the Provincial Auditor noted as being paid $500 more per

case than is being paid in the public cancer centre. It's also the same for-profit clinic that Mr McGuinty told the Toronto Sun in May 2002 he would maintain if elected. It's the same for-profit

company whose contract the government quietly renewed in March 2002.

Premier, my question: who else on your staff has ties to companies which might benefit from your decision to further expand for-profit health care in

Ontario?

Hon Mr Eves: With respect to any private clinic delivering any service in the province of Ontario, the member surely knows that about 35% of

different diagnostic and treatment procedures like kidney dialysis and like diagnostic procedures of imaging that allow the patient to detect sooner what problems they may or may not have.

I was in Kitchener yesterday, where we are opening at the Grand River Hospital an MRI situation that will allow some 3,300 patients a year to receive MRIs who

are not.

IPPERWASH PROVINCIAL PARK

Mr Gerry Phillips (Scarborough-Agincourt): My question is to the Premier. Ontarians, as you know, want to know what happened in September 1995

in the shooting death of Dudley George at Ipperwash Provincial Park. You will know the park is still closed. This is an open wound that won't heal unless there's a public inquiry. There is a civil

case by the George family, although they do not prefer that approach. They would drop the civil case in a moment if you would call a public inquiry.

Former Premier Harris has spent about $1 million of taxpayers' money so far on his legal defence, and the estimate is that he may very well spend another $1

million on his defence. There's another group of government people who are also being defended through the government's insurance company. We have been trying to find out how much money has been

spent there, and what the government has said is that if they disclosed that, it would have a chilling effect on the government's insurer.

The question is this: will you agree, Premier, to call a public inquiry into the events surrounding the shooting death at Ipperwash Provincial Park?

Hon Ernie Eves (Premier, Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): I refer this to the AG, Mr Speaker.

Hon David Young (Attorney General, minister responsible for native affairs): Indeed, this is a serious matter. An individual lost his life as

a result of the incident referenced by the member opposite. It is so serious a matter that it has been the subject matter of not one, not two, but three court proceedings. It was a matter where

indeed an individual was convicted of a very serious charge, and there was another individual who was acquitted.

This is not a matter that anybody is trying to remove from public attention. This is a matter where we are trying to get to the truth; we are trying to ensure

that all of the facts are brought forward. Indeed, to that end we have co-operated fully with the pending civil action. We have asked that the matter be expedited. A case management judge has been

appointed and is moving this action forward so that all of the people of Ontario can get all of the facts.

Mr Phillips: Premier, I would hope you might address this personally. You are a lawyer, and lawyers understand that the civil case may

determine who might have been legally responsible but it will not get at many of the essential issues in this case: whether the procedures were adequate; the relationship between the government and

the OPP; the short- and long-term causes of what happened that might have led to that incident; the preventive measures.

It is crystal clear to any lawyer I've talked to that the civil case will not get the answers to the essential questions. So I would say to you that Mr Harris

will spend another $1 million of taxpayers' money, the other millions of dollars will be spent on legal fees defending the civil case, and at the end of that Ontario will still not have the answer

to the questions. I say to you again, Premier, the time is now, is right, before the summer recess. Will you now agree to do the appropriate thing, to stop the civil case, allow the George family

to drop it, by calling a public inquiry?

Hon Mr Young: Indeed, it is the George family that commenced the civil action. They did so by filing a statement of claim with the Superior

Court of Justice in this province. In that statement of claim they set out the parameters of the lawsuit, as does any plaintiff at the commencement of a lawsuit. They set out the issues that were

to be dealt with, and they will be dealt with.

I would ask you for a moment to pause and consider the difference between a civil action and a public inquiry of the sort referenced by the member opposite. In

a civil action, the judge is free, open and indeed obliged to find fault and assess damages. In a public inquiry, there can be no such finding. The judge or whoever the individual is who is put in

charge of that inquiry is restricted as to what he or she can do. So if we are looking for the best vehicle to provide as many answers as possible, the civil action is the most appropriate vehicle

to utilize.

NUTRIENT MANAGEMENT

Mr John O'Toole (Durham): My question is to the Minister of Agriculture and Food. Minister, you're very familiar with my riding of Durham, and

you would know perhaps that municipal agricultural advisory committees and other constituents of mine have been inquiring recently about the status of our Nutrient Management Act. I'll mention them

later. Recently, I am pleased to say, it received second reading and in fact I'm confident, with the endurance of our House leader, and you, as minister, it will pass here tomorrow.

Last week, however, the opposition member from Glengarry-Prescott-Russell, Mr Lalonde, introduced a private member's bill to control what he called megahog

farms. I've never actually seen a megahog farm, but nonetheless I understand this proposed act pertains to operations with a large amount of livestock. It would classify them -- and this is

important -- as industrial and not normal farm practices.

Minister, this appears to be another Liberal way, a Liberal solution to a very complex problem of managing on-farm nutrients. What is your opinion of this

opposition bill that you're dealing with as the Minister of Agriculture and Food?

Hon Helen Johns (Minister of Agriculture and Food): I'd like to thank my colleague for the question and say that I too was surprised that this

bill was introduced by the opposition Liberals. It is the opinion on this side of the House that all of these issues are taken into account and covered under Bill 81, and we find it somewhat narrow

to say that we should only look at hogs in the province as opposed to all livestock in the province. We're attempting to look at all livestock when we talk about the nutrient management bill.

The proposed bill focuses only on hogs. It doesn't cover other farming operations. We're very concerned, and so is Justice O'Connor, when you say you're

focusing only on one area. In fact, in Justice O'Connor's report, on page 138, he says that Bill 81 is an excellent vehicle to move forward so that we can manage nutrients in the province. What he

doesn't want to happen is that there be one-offs with the agricultural community; that people are treated fairly and equally across the province. So I am saddened that this bill would be put

forward in --

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Order. The minister's time is up.

Mr O'Toole: Mr Speaker, I wish you had given her more time. She was really getting into the substance of the answer.

I understand it's a very incomplete, ill-thought-out bill, and I appreciate the work you've put into this. In fact, I want to pay my respects and wish you good

luck at the first ministers' meetings in Halifax this weekend, giving up your personal time etc. I also want to thank my colleagues Ernie Hardeman and Brian Coburn for the work they did on this

very important, very complete bill, when they were ministers.

Since we're speaking of hog production, I want to mention a few of my riding people who are involved in the agricultural sector. I know members here would like

to know about them. They are interested in the outcome of Bill 81. Ken Lamb is the president of the Durham Pork Producers. Other producers include Dave and Leah Frew, Steve Pleasance, John and

Jacquie Vaneyk, Stan Found, Craig Larmer and Jim Macklin, just to name a few. Can you assure not just these but all of my constituents in my riding, particularly in the agricultural business, that

Bill 81 will be passed this spring and you can get on with preparing the regulations so that they can get on with business and agriculture?

Hon Mrs Johns: I'd like to thank the member once again for the question and say that we on this side are certainly hopeful that this bill will

pass. We know we will have the final vote tomorrow, and we're optimistic that at the end of the day we can say the bill has gone forward. We certainly need to work in this summer session to get

regulations ready so that we can start to consult with the public.

I do want to say that this has been a really long haul. If the Liberals wanted to have a nutrient management bill passed so badly, they could have passed it a

long time ago. They voted against it today, and I hope tomorrow they'll change their minds, that they will flip-flop and vote for this bill. If you want to vote for the bill you put on the table,

you have to vote for ours. It's the same thing only broader.

HYDRO DAM SAFETY

Mr Sean G. Conway (Renfrew-Nipissing-Pembroke): My question is to the Minister of Energy. The minister will know that on Sunday afternoon on

the Madawaska River, just down from the village of Calabogie, a terrible and terrifying tragedy occurred that claimed the lives of a young mother and her young son who were constituents of mine.

The tragedy occurred as the result of an unexpected release of a very substantial volume of water from one of Ontario Power Generation's hydroelectric stations along that part of the Madawaska

River corridor. Minister, it has been 48 hours since the tragedy occurred. Could you please tell my constituents living in the Calabogie area and the Legislature what, to the best of your

understanding at this point in time, occurred on that river Sunday afternoon?

Hon Chris Stockwell (Minister of Environment and Energy, Government House Leader): I want to thank the member opposite for the question. When

I found out on Sunday, I did my best to try and inform the local member; I think we reached you later that day.

Cindy Cadieux and her nine-year-old son Aaron were killed on Sunday, June 23, by a rush of water from the Barrett Chute dam. It was a very serious thing that

took place and I know this whole House will send its condolences and sorrow to the family. It's a tragedy that I'm sure we all feel.

The Ontario Provincial Police, the local coroner's office and Ontario Power Generation are investigating the tragic accident. I understand from the OPG that

they are fully co-operating. In fact, I directed them to fully co-operate with the investigation. We'll take whatever action is necessary to ensure safety around the dam sites, at Madawaska and the

other sites across Ontario.

It's an awful thing. It's a terrible, terrible thing. I know your community of Renfrew is seized with this issue. I think all in the House would like to allow

the police to investigate and determine what happened, what went wrong, and then maybe we can comment and deal with the issue after the fact.

Again, it was a tragedy and we extend our sincere condolences to the family.

Mr Conway: I appreciate the minister's response and I know my constituents will appreciate his concern and his sympathy. It was a truly

terrifying thing that occurred on that brilliant early summer afternoon in the Calabogie area.

My supplementary question is this: in my constituency of Renfrew-Nipissing-Pembroke there are several other hydroelectric generating stations. Across the

province there are scores of these stations. Could the minister tell me what he, his department, his government and all of the hydroelectric generators in the province are doing to ensure the

maximum level of public safety so that an incident such as we saw, tragically, at Calabogie on Sunday does not occur again?

Hon Mr Stockwell: On Monday morning, after getting to the office, I had my staff phone the OPG and others and directed all such operations to

be reviewed, with the OPG staff going out there to review all procedures that are put in place to ensure that at least in the meantime nothing like this will take place.

You're right, there are a number of these facilities around Ontario. It's a big job, but they have undertaken to do just that. The member made the request of

me and I followed up on it exactly as you said. The important fact now is that we try and ensure that with any of these other sites, if they're handling the situation the same way, they stop. I

think that was the order I put out. I know that was the order I put out to my staff. I know that's the order that was given to the OPG. It was also the order to completely co-operate with the OPP,

but also, obviously, we should talk about all the other sites and ensure they don't handle it in the same fashion.

All I can say to the House right now is that after the investigation we'll review further, but the directions were put out, notices have been sent and the OPG

staff are inspecting to ensure that in the meantime it doesn't happen again.

HMCS HAIDA

Mr Raminder Gill (Bramalea-Gore-Malton-Springdale): My question is for the Minister of Tourism and Recreation. There has been discussion

between this government and the federal government, Parks Canada and the Friends of HMCS Haida that the Haida may be relocated. Can you give us an update on HMCS Haida and its future, and in

particular the transfer of the Haida to Parks Canada?

Hon Cameron Jackson (Minister of Tourism and Recreation): I realize all members of the House are waiting to hear this year's update on the

Haida. As all members would know, this is probably the most decorated and distinguished vessel in Canadian naval history and it's important we preserve this important ship for future

generations.

Three years ago we started discussions with Sheila Copps and her ministry -- three years ago -- to relocate it to a permanent location in Hamilton. I'm pleased

to tell the House that we have an agreement in principle that we will be able to effect the transfer of this important heritage property.

Friends of HMCS Haida -- which includes everyone in this House, I understand -- are very excited about our opportunity to preserve this important historical

site and to improve its presentation for future generations. It's going to build an outstanding tourism product for Hamilton.

Mr Gill: Minister, thank you for enlightening us. It is heartening that the province appreciates the historical significance of the Haida and

its naval experience, beginning with its wartime duty and, later, participating as part of the United Nations's first peacekeeping operation in Korea.

What are the next steps for the transfer of HMCS Haida to Parks Canada?

Hon Mr Jackson: I want to thank the honourable member. This is a great example of how the federal and provincial governments can work

together. The province is pleased to put up a quarter of a million dollars in a one-time grant to ensure that we can move the ship safely from Ontario Place. We will have some restoration work to

do at the waterfront at Ontario Place. We will tow it to Welland port, where it will have important repairs so that it will arrive in Hamilton safely. We want to make sure the federal government

and the provincial government ensure that the transfer occurs effectively.

This is the last summer the Haida will be at Ontario Place. I encourage you to go and see it and enjoy Ontario Place.

If I may, Mr Speaker, on Canada Day at 10 o'clock at night we will have a world-class fireworks display set to Canadian music. We encourage all members of the

House and those listening to come to Ontario Place on Monday to celebrate Canada Day.

EDUCATION FUNDING

Mr Gilles Bisson (Timmins-James Bay): My question is to the Deputy Premier and Minister of Education. You would know, as my good friend and

colleague from Hamilton West had indicated, that the Ottawa board and now the Hamilton board have had to make decisions as a result of your shortfall in the funding formula that funds education,

through those boards, to the kids. In their cases, they have basically decided that they're going to run deficits rather than taking services away from those kids.

decided to cut $930,000 from the special-needs budget. That means 25% of the education assistants are going to be let go next year. There are now some 650 kids in our school board area, within that

board, who are going to be without services next year.

What are you prepared to do to assist those kids to make sure they get the services they need so they can compete in the future?

Hon Elizabeth Witmer (Deputy Premier, Minister of Education): I certainly appreciate the concerns the member has brought to my attention

regarding the pupils within his constituency, but as the member does know, we have responded to the concerns and, certainly, the additional money has flowed to school boards. We have added about

$556 million this year, in the last few months. I would also hasten to add that school boards have seen an increase in their flexible funding from $100 per student to $200 per student, so they do

have the flexibility to direct the money where it's most needed. We've also taken into account small school boards with declining enrolment, and, again, they continue to be allocated additional

money.

Mr Bisson: Minister, the problem is, all of that does absolutely nothing to help kids next year. The boards are making these decisions based

on what they know the numbers are, as you announced in the budget. So those numbers aren't going to assist those 650 kids within the public board who are going to have to do without those

particular services. Now you have a separate process going on, when it comes to a consultation process to take a look at the funding formula. But my problem there is, that decision won't be made

until later on this fall, which means it will not be implemented until next spring, should there be an increase in the special-needs budgets.

So my plea to you is a very simple one. We know there's a process that is undertaken to revisit the issue of the funding formula. My question to you is, are

you prepared to fund adequately the dollars for school boards across this province, and specifically for the area I represent, so that those kids who need special-needs education aren't going to

have to do without because of the shortfall in your funding formula?

Hon Mrs Witmer: The member opposite obviously didn't hear the response to his first question or he was anticipating that I would give a

different response. I think he's talking about the Rozanski report, which I didn't mention in my first response. But I did tell the member opposite that we have responded. We have announced funding

of 556 million additional dollars this year. We have increased flexible funding for school boards from $100 to $200 per pupil. We have given additional money to small school boards, recognizing

that there is a need to recognize that there are some extenuating circumstances. We certainly are moving forward in a way that responds to the requests we have heard from school boards to provide

them with additional money and more flexible funding and we have done so.

SUPPORT FOR AGRICULTURE

Mr Steve Peters (Elgin-Middlesex-London): My question is to the Minister of Agriculture. The federal government has announced how much they're

coming to the table with. Will you today announce to this Legislature and Ontario farmers what contribution the Ontario government is going to make toward safety nets?

Hon Helen Johns (Minister of Agriculture and Food): Let me say that I appreciate the question asked, because the agricultural community in

Ontario is a very important industry. The agri-food industry is the second-largest industry in the province.

Last week the federal government introduced a plan. Inasmuch as we're grateful for the fact that they came forward with dollars, it's a little shy on details.

We have worked with the federal government over the weekend to be able to ascertain the kinds of dollars the federal government is talking about. Once we get that information, we will be talking

about that.

As a result of the information we had gleaned, we met with the agricultural community on Monday morning. We've all gone away to work on the details to be able

to come together again and have a discussion of where the province may go. It's our goal to work with the agricultural community to ensure that we do the best things for the agricultural community

as we proceed forward in the ensuing weeks. Details are what we need before we're going to make a commitment about what we're going --

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): I thank the minister. Supplementary?

Mr Peters: It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that the Ontario agricultural community will receive approximately 21% of the federal

dollars that are allocated. There's a tradition in this country of cost sharing, a 40-60 split. I know that you have some difficulties with it. But we heard the previous Minister of Agriculture,

Ernie Hardeman, say that we've had this tradition, this 40-60 split.

We've waited. We've been waiting for over a year for the made-in-Ontario safety net program. We've been through one minister; we're into another minister. We

heard at the agricultural round table that the Premier is hoping to have something in place by the fall. The farmers of Ontario can't wait until the fall.

Madam Minister, the farmers of Ontario are asking you to stand up and show some leadership. When will we see what the Ontario contribution is going to be? And

when will those cheques start to flow to Ontario farmers, those farmers who have been hurt by bad crops, bad weather, those farmers who have been hurt by subsidies from the European Union, from the

United States? When are you going to stand up, Minister, and deliver a clear message to Ontario farmers that you care about this government, that you don't pay lip service to them? When, Minister,

will we hear that announcement?

Hon Mrs Johns: What a bunch of bunk and bluster. He knows as well as every farmer in the province knows that last year Ontario put up their

40%, plus they put up $20 million extra that was never matched by the Liberals in Ottawa. We've come forward. We've been there for the agricultural community. In fact, when I was made minister in

April I went to Minister Vanclief and said, "I think we should move forward on this." He is moving forward. He's going to give me the details. We're going to consult with the agricultural

community, because that's what we do on this side of the House. Past history tells us that when it comes to supporting farmers, this side of the House does it.

What happened of course is that the federal government refuses to take responsibility for the trade injury they have incurred because they refused to be strong

at the WTO talks. Saskatchewan has raised strong arguments on this, but we have never said we'll walk away from our 40%. The commitment has been --

The Speaker: The minister's time is up.

PETITIONS

CHILDREN'S HEALTH SERVICES

Mr Dalton McGuinty (Leader of the Opposition): I am pleased to present a petition that has been signed by 16,561 residents of eastern Ontario,

which reads as follows:

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the Ontario government is shutting down the heart surgery unit at the Children's Hospital of Eastern Ontario; and

"Whereas every year CHEO treats 140 cases of seriously ill children close to home; and

"Whereas centralizing children's heart surgery in Toronto will force patients and their families to travel 400 to 600 kilometres away from home at a traumatic

time; and

"Whereas there is a waiting list for cardiac surgery in Toronto but not at CHEO; and

"Whereas the people of eastern Ontario demand accessible, quality health care for their children;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to immediately override the government's decision to close this life-saving program and to

ensure that top-quality accessible health care remains available to every child in eastern Ontario."

HEALTH CARE

Mr John O'Toole (Durham): There are a lot of people around me here just now and I have the page Mackenzie -- where are you from, Mackenzie?

Anyway, it's an excellent petition. Actually, Mackenzie's from Peterborough.

"Whereas we, the undersigned, wish to express our concern about the current debate on our health care system; and

"Whereas medicare has saved a generation of Canadians from fear of financial ruin due to illness; and

"Whereas this system is now in peril;

"Therefore we, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to work co-operatively to uphold the five principles of the Canada Health Act

which are in need of reinforcement and new commitment. These principles are: accessible, universally available, publicly administered, portable and comprehensive. We further ask that Canadians be

provided with a properly funded and sustainable not-for profit health system. We ask that Canada take back its role as a leader in national health care, insured by a public health system fully

supported by the federal and provincial governments."

I support this petition and I can only hope the federal government supports health care.

PROFESSIONAL LEARNING

Mr Alvin Curling (Scarborough-Rouge River): I have a petition here that reads:

"Petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Because we, the undersigned, believe in our responsibility as teachers to maintain a high degree of professionalism; and

"Because such professionalism is best served when professional learning is self-directed and based on teacher need, improves professional skills, improves

student learning, is based on best practice accountability and is funded by the appropriate educational authority; and

"Because we oppose the government's teacher testing program and the College of Teachers' professional learning program because they do not meet the objectives

of effective professional learning,

"We, the undersigned, respectfully request that you repeal all clauses and references to professional learning from the Stability and Excellence in Education

Act, 2001."

I affix my signature to this and I'll be sure to give it to Lauren to give to the desk.

HIGHWAY 522

Mr Norm Miller (Parry Sound-Muskoka): "To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly as follows:

"We, the taxpayers, members of the communities and the people who have to travel along Highway 522 in the district of Parry Sound want to bring to your

attention the poor condition of Highway 522."

I sign my name in support of this petition.

ONTARIO DISABILITY

SUPPORT PROGRAM

Mrs Lyn McLeod (Thunder Bay-Atikokan): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

disability support program, has clawed this amount back;

"Therefore, we, the undersigned people of Ontario, petition the Ontario Legislature to remove the cap on the disability support program."

I have the signatures on this petition of a large number of people from the community of Dryden, and I affix my signature in full agreement with their

concerns.

HEALTH CARE

Mr John O'Toole (Durham): I'm receiving thousands of these petitions and I support most of them.

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas we, the undersigned, wish to express our concern about the current debate on our health care system; and

"Whereas medicare has saved a generation of Canadians from fear of financial ruin due to illness; and

"Whereas this system is now in peril;

"Therefore we, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to work co-operatively to uphold the five principles of the Canada Health Act

which are in need of reinforcement and new commitment. These principles are: accessible, universally available, publicly administered, portable, comprehensive. We further ask that Canadians be

provided with a properly funded and sustainable non-for-profit health care system. We ask that Canada take back its role as a leader in national health care, insured by a public health system fully

supported by the federal and provincial governments."

I'm pleased to sign and support this on behalf of Elizabeth Bateman, who brought this into my office.

DOCTOR SHORTAGE

Mr David Ramsay (Timiskaming-Cochrane): I'm pleased to present a petition today for the provision of family doctors for the residents of

Kirkland Lake.

"Whereas we, the residents of Kirkland Lake and areas are facing a critical shortage of family physicians and urge the government to provide prompt

implementation of measures to ease this inadequacy;

"Whereas patients deserve to have a family physician with whom they can build a trusting relationship, someone who knows them by name, can provide routine

personal care and keep track of them in the health care system. This cannot and should not be provided in an emergency department setting;

"Whereas as taxpaying citizens we are being denied access to primary health care and urge you to deliver relief for the people of this community and our

remaining doctors struggling to maintain medical services;

"Therefore

be it resolved that we, the undersigned, petition the Ontario Legislature as follows:

"To demand the Conservative government draw immediate attention to this potentially life-threatening crisis and provide relief to us, the people of

Ontario."

I will affix my signature to this.

HEALTH CARE

Mr Joseph Spina (Brampton Centre): A petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas we, the undersigned, wish to express our concern about the current debate on our health care system; and

"Whereas medicare has saved a generation of Canadians from fear of financial ruin due to illness; and

"Whereas this system is now in peril;"

"Therefore we, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to work co-operatively to uphold the five principles of the Canada Health Act

which are in need of reinforcement and new commitment. These principles are: accessible, universally available, publicly administered, portable, comprehensive. We further ask that Canadians be

provided with a properly funded and sustainable non-for-profit health system. We ask that Canada take back its role as a leader in national health care, insured by a public health system fully

supported by the federal and provincial governments."

I'll sign this.

SPEECH AND LANGUAGE SERVICES

Mr John C. Cleary (Stormont-Dundas-Charlottenburgh): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas all children five years and older who have been identified as children with speech and language problems have the right to receive professional speech

assistance,

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"To ensure adequate speech professionals are available to assist children five years and older;

"Therefore, we ask the Legislature begin immediate action in providing speech and language services required."

I've also signed the petition.

HEALTH CARE

Mr John O'Toole (Durham): I feel it's important to acknowledge the work constituents do, and I do on their behalf. I'm presenting this

petition. This one was brought in from Mary Lynch, who is a parish nurse:

"Whereas we, the undersigned, wish to express our concern about the current debate on our health care system; and

"Whereas medicare has saved a generation of Canadians from fear of financial ruin due to illness; and

"Whereas this system is now in peril;"

"Therefore we, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to work co-operatively to uphold the five principles of the Canada Health Act

which are in need of reinforcement and new commitment. These principles are: accessible, universally available, publicly administered, portable, comprehensive. We further ask that Canadians be

provided with a properly funded and sustainable non-for-profit health care system. We ask that Canada take back its role as a leader in national health care, insured by a public health system fully

supported by the federal and provincial governments."

I'm pleased to sign and endorse this on behalf of a number of constituents, and I'll be reading these further.

AIR QUALITY

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): "To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the Eves government's wholly owned Nanticoke generating station is North America's largest dirty coal-fired electricity producing plant and Ontario's

largest producer of the chemicals and acid gases which contribute to deadly smog and acid rain; and

"Whereas the Nanticoke plant, which has more than doubled its dangerous emissions under the Harris government, is now the worst air polluter in all of Canada,

spewing out over five million kilograms of toxic chemicals each year, including many cancer-causing chemicals and mercury, a potent and dangerous neurotoxin; and

"Whereas the Ontario Medical Association has stated that 1,900 Ontarians die prematurely each year and we pay $1 billion annually in health-related costs as a

result of air pollution; and

"Whereas the Eves government has the opportunity to make a positive move on behalf of the environment by proceeding with the Sir Adam Beck 3 generating

facility, which would produce air-pollution-free electricity in this province and would provide an alternative to the constantly increasing demands placed upon the Nanticoke coal facility; and

"Whereas the Beck 3 generating facility would also provide a major boost to the economy of Ontario through investment and employment in the construction and

operation of the facility and in addition would offer additional energy for the power grid of the province of Ontario;

"We, the undersigned, ask that the Ernie Eves government, as shareholder of Ontario Power Generation, order the immediate development and construction of the

Sir Adam Beck 3 generating station."

I affix my signature. I am in complete agreement.

HEALTH CARE

The Acting Speaker (Mr Michael A. Brown): Petitions? The member for Durham.

Mr John O'Toole (Durham): Mr Speaker, thank you for recognizing me and giving me an opportunity to represent my constituents in Durham,

because this is a very important issue.

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas we, the undersigned, wish to express our concern about the current debate on our health care system; and

"Whereas medicare has saved a generation of Canadians from fear of financial ruin due to illness; and

"Whereas this system is now in peril,

"Therefore we, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to work co-operatively to uphold the five principles of the Canada Health Act

which are in need of reinforcement and new commitment. These principles are: accessible, universally available, publicly administered, portable, comprehensive. We further ask that Canadians be

provided with a properly funded and sustainable not-for-profit health system. We ask that Canada take back its role as a leader in national health care, insured by a public health system fully

supported by the federal and provincial governments."

I'm presenting this on behalf of a constituent, Bridget Atkins from Blackstock, Ontario, who has supported this along with thousands of other constituents in

the riding of Durham.

HYDRO ONE

Mr Pat Hoy (Chatham-Kent Essex): I have hundreds of names on these petitions. I will read this in part.

"To the Ontario Legislature:

"Whereas the Conservative government plans to sell off Hydro One and Ontario's electricity transmission grid -- the central nervous system of Ontario's

economy;

"Whereas the government never campaigned on selling off this vital $5-billion public asset and never consulted the people of Ontario on this plan;

"Therefore,

be it resolved that we, the undersigned, petition the Ontario Legislature as follows:

"To demand the Conservative government halt the sale of Hydro One until the government has a clear mandate from the owners of Hydro One -- the people of

Ontario."

It's signed by a number of residents from Ridgetown, Thamesville, Morpeth and Duart. I too have signed this petition.

LONDON HEALTH SCIENCES CENTRE

Mr Steve Peters (Elgin-Middlesex-London): A petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the London Health Sciences Centre is a world-class academic health sciences centre serving people throughout southwestern Ontario; and

"Whereas the Ministry of Health has forced the London Health Sciences Centre to find $17 million in annual savings by 2005; and....

"Whereas the London Health Sciences Centre has been forced to cut 18 programs," including pediatric cardiac care, "in order to satisfy directions from the

provincial Ministry of Health; and

"Whereas these cuts will put the health of the people," families and patients, "of southwestern Ontario, and particularly children, at risk; and

"Whereas these cuts will diminish the London Health Sciences Centre's standing as a regional health care resource," and will cut into the much-needed program

at the University of Western Ontario medical school; and

"Whereas these cuts will worsen the continuing physician shortages in the region;

"Therefore,

be it resolved that we, the undersigned, petition the Ontario Legislature to demand the" Eves "government take immediate action to ensure these

important health services are maintained so that the health and safety of people throughout southwestern Ontario," and particularly young children, "are not put at risk" through the cutting of such

programs as the pediatric cardiac heart surgery program.

This petition is signed by thousands of residents of southwestern Ontario who are extremely concerned, and I'm pleased to add my name in support.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

KEEPING THE PROMISE

FOR GROWTH AND PROSPERITY ACT

(2002 BUDGET), 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 SUR LE RESPECT

DE L'ENGAGEMENT D'ASSURER

LA CROISSANCE ET LA PROSPÉRITÉ

(BUDGET DE 2002)

Resuming the debate adjourned on June 24, 2002, on the motion for second reading of Bill 109,

An Act to implement the measures contained in the 2002 Ontario

Budget and to implement other initiatives of the Government of Ontario / Projet de loi 109, Loi mettant en oeuvre certaines mesures énoncées dans le budget de l'Ontario de 2002 ainsi que

d'autres initiatives du gouvernement de l'Ontario.

The Acting Speaker (Mr Michael A. Brown): Just to remind members, Mr Bradley and Mr McMeekin have spoken. We are now at questions and

comments.

Mr Tony Martin (Sault Ste Marie): I find it a privilege to be able to comment on the comments of the members just listed, particularly the

member for St Catharines -- and for Kingston, who is here -- and anybody else who has spoken on this budget. Basically, everybody is saying the same thing, except that the member from St

Catharines, I know, always finds a way to tie it to his own community because ultimately, at the end of the day, how this budget affects the people that we represent is what's most important.

I know that he spoke about the lack of money for cities. I know that he spoke about the lack of money in this budget, although there was a paltry amount for

education, and I know that he has some real concerns about health care in his community. As a matter of fact, did you get your CAT scan yet, or your MRI? I'm not sure. That's always an issue, and

I'm not sure whether that's in this budget or not, or whether it's going to be available or not.

I know that there are a lot of communities across this province, including my own, that find themselves in dire straits at the moment where health care is

concerned, and the budget did nothing to relieve that concern. Education is another. We've heard over the last few days here the questions raised by many of the members of our caucus around the

question of funding for education, and in particular funding for special ed. We know that at the end of the day, if there isn't money for the basic classroom support, the money that was put in for

special education is the first to be sacrificed. In sacrificing that money, you are sacrificing those children who need those services so desperately.

Even though there was a kinder, gentler face put on this budget by some of the language that was used, when you get into it in any detail and you begin to

assess the impact that it will have on communities and on people living in communities and the systems that support those people, I think most people will be disappointed. We'll see that this

government really hasn't changed its tack at all, it's just doing it in a different way.

The Acting Speaker: Questions and comments?

Mr Steve Gilchrist (Scarborough East): I'm pleased to offer a few thoughts. We were just handed out earlier this afternoon a copy of all of

the spending by the various members of the Legislature and I want to compliment that one of the two members to whom we were responding, Mr Bradley, did a very good job of staying well under the

budget, the $236,000 that was allowed.

It's a concern to me, though, because we get many lectures from the members opposite about our profligacy, about how there might be waste or inefficiencies.

Yet when I look at this chart, it is indeed sobering. When the media gives so little attention -- I know outside they were trying to focus on one line out of this report. But it is sobering to note

that in every case the opposition members were the highest spenders. Those would be the people who would have the fewest responsibilities, who don't have the requirement to be down here. What

troubles me more on the travel side is that every year, traditionally, we've heard from Mr Phillips and Mr Curling, who have always criticized the Conservative members for their spending.

Interjection.

Mr Gilchrist: Yes, you're right. What goes around comes around --

The Acting Speaker: Order. There is a requirement that we comment or ask questions about the particular speeches that were given by the member

from St Catharines and the member for Ancaster-Dundas-Flamborough-Aldershot.

Mr Gilchrist: Mr Speaker, the clock was not stopped. Allow me to say that considering that this budget includes the allocation for the

Legislative Assembly, I suggest that this is quite appropriate. What struck me this year is that every year in the past, Mr Phillips, the member for Scarborough-Agincourt, has gone to great lengths

to excoriate members on this side for their spending.

Mr John Gerretsen (Kingston and the Islands): Since the member opposite brought it up, let me just --

Interjections.

Mr Gerretsen: If he wants to get into it, we can, because he is only $10,000 less than the two members he talked about.

The Acting Speaker: We're not going to discuss comments that were not made by Mr Bradley or Mr McMeekin.

Mr Gerretsen: Exactly, and I appreciate that very much. It should be noted, however, that if the members on the government side are in cabinet

or are parliamentary assistant many of the expenses can be placed --

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker: We're not going there. Comments on Mr Bradley's or Mr McMeekin's speech.

Mr Gerretsen: I thought Mr Bradley's speech last night was absolutely superb, as they always are.

The one thing that has really surprised me about this government is the fact that they now have to change, as a result of this budget, the Taxpayer Protection

Act. You may recall that this was their shining piece of legislation. They were going to put in legislation that if there were going to be any tax increases at all, in effect it would have to go to

the people. Now, of course, within a year after passing that act, they have to reverse themselves.

Now let me make it absolutely clear that I am not in favour of all these tax cuts they've been implementing over the last five years. I think we as a province,

a society and a people would have been a lot better off if we had taken that tax cut money and put it into service programs, whether it's in health care or in education, because that's what the

people of Ontario want. They want good public services, whether we're talking about the environment, whether we're talking about educating our young or whether we're talking about the health care

services that each and every one of us needs. I'm all in favour of that, but they in effect have had to go against their own promise by now having to change the Taxpayer Protection Act.

Hon Helen Johns (Minister of Agriculture and Food): I'd like to pass comment on the member for St Catharines's speech last night. I know he

spent a great deal of time talking about media moguls. He talked about Izzy Asper last night and his seemingly questionable behaviour with the Prime Minister and his discussions about how the media

affects how people view us all in the province, and across the country as a matter of fact.

I was somewhat amused, I have to say, because he tried to draw an analogy last night which I thought was a little far-reaching when he suggested somewhere

along the line that the Conservatives, and especially Mike Harris, had had an easy ride with the media and that maybe there had been those kinds of relationships, like Izzy obviously has with Jean

Chrétien, with Mike Harris. I just wanted to remind the member opposite that we obviously don't see that on this side of the House. We think the papers are usually fairly --

Mr Gilchrist: Not the Toronto Star.

Hon Mrs Johns: The Toronto Star especially is fairly critical of anything we do.

But obviously it comes down to us all thinking about media and the roles and responsibilities of media.

Interjection.

Hon Mrs Johns: I can always yell louder than somebody else across the room.

read these papers and think, "I wonder if this is an op-ed piece, if this is an editorial or if this is a strict portrayal of the facts." I think, like my colleague across the way, that they need

to say that more clearly so people understand what they're reading when they go through the papers. It's easy for us to be not identified well, and I suggest to the Aspers that --

The Acting Speaker: Now we'll have a response from the member for St Catharines.

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): Thank you to all my colleagues who responded.

The Minister of Agriculture is right in saying that what we're looking for is defining what is opinion and what is supposed to be direct reporting, and that's

important. She knew last night the point I was making was that I didn't hear a whisper of concern from the right wing when all of these newspapers were seized by Conrad Black, through his millions

upon millions of dollars, and converted from what he said were left-wing rags to in effect right-wing newspapers.

Now a new owner takes over, Mr Asper, and he reads all these papers that constantly are vitriolically anti-Liberal, anti-NDP, pro-Alliance and pro-Mike Harris

government. I look at some of the columnists in the Ottawa Citizen. You've got a couple of them who worked in Premier Harris's office. You've got some who work for the Fraser Institute. I simply

say what I look for, and I think what the Minister of Agriculture looks for, is some balance out there, not rants against one political party or another, day after day.

As for the member for Scarborough East chastising the Toronto Star, I think you should be happy with some of the columns you've seen lately. It fits into your

pattern, where you want to boost the NDP up so you can say, "Well, the NDP is the real opposition" -- and the NDP is happy to get that; I don't blame them -- "and Ernie Eves has really changed and

this is a new government." You can't complain about that when you see those things happening and some of the headlines you get. But of course, as things unfold, the real truth will be known.

Unfortunately, you will be trying to counter the real truth with millions upon millions of dollars of government advertising and partisan advertising, which you can afford.

The Acting Speaker: Further debate?

Mr David Christopherson (Hamilton West): It's my pleasure to participate. I want to begin my remarks on the budget that was just tabled by

commenting on the much-touted fact that it's a balanced budget. Of course, the government wanted and needed that ability to say it's their third or fourth -- I forget what number they're bragging

about, but whatever it is. The fact is that they're going to achieve it by virtue of deferring primarily their corporate tax cuts and by selling assets that belong to the public. Let's deal with