LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday , 20 March 1980 Time: 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUP PLY - HIGHWAYS AND TRANSPORTATION MR . CHAIRMAN, Morris McGr�gor (V irden) : I call the commi ttee to order . Resolutio n 85 , 6. (a) - The Member for Flin Fl on. MR . TH OMAS BARROW: Thank you , Mr . Chairman . I only have one question, by the way , pertain ing to the road between Flin Flon and Cranberry Portage . It 's roughly 40 mile s, Mr . Minister , and it 's a very , very crooked , dangerous road . It 's narrow and it's very , very crooked .

Former ly, we straightened the road out from Flin Flon to Baker 's Narrows and shortened it by eight mi les . From Baker 's Narrows to Cranberry is roughly the same distance that 's surveyed . My question to the Minister is, would he consider working on this

section of the Highway soon? MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . HON. DON ORCHARD ( Pembina ): The design stretch , but there are some portions of it that member well knows, there is no appropriation straig htening on that this year . MR . BARROW : This year . MR. ORCHARD: No . MR . BARROW : Okay , thank you . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Burrows . is not completely done on that are designed , yes . But, as the for construction on that, or MR . BEN HANUS CHAK: Yes, Mr.

Chairm an, I would hope that the Minister would now answer two or three of the questions which I posed to him prior to the com­ mitt ee' s rising at 4: 30.

I believe that he said at that time that the first por­ tion of the blue book which we have before us, the first half of it lists proj ects previously programme d, and that that is a list of the highway construction pro­ je cts which were scheduled for the previous fiscal year , or rather for the fiscal year which will end in a week 's time , or a little better than a week 's time , just by way of comp arison ; and then comm enc ing with Page 15 , projects scheduled for 1980-1981, lists the projects which his de partment will proceed with during the forthcoming fiscal year .

I have a few more comme nts to make , Mr. Chairm an . But I would like to ask the Minist er , have the proj ects titled as proj ects previously program med , comme ncing with Page 1 of the Highway Construction Program , and ending with Page 14 , have those been completed? MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR . ORCHA RD: No, Mr . Chairm an, they haven 't. MR. HANUSCHAK: They have not been complete d . Now could the Minister then answer the question which I posed to him prior to the Com mitte e' s rising at 4:3 0?

Could he indicate the - I'l l take one second - of the $76 ,4 15 ,6 00 , we ll, or what­ ever , $60 milli on for regular program , could the Minister indicate the amount contained in his Estimates for the forthcoming fiscal year that is being - 1279 -

Thursday , 20 March, 1980 appropriated toward the compl etion of the projects comm ence d last year and the amount that is being appropriated for the proj ects to be commenced in the forthcoming fiscal year? MR . ORCHARD: Now, be fore we get any further in the line of quest ioning , I want to explain to the Member for Burrows how we set up the road program . It involves a formula set out by the Provinc ial Auditor . Now we have roughly $81 milli on between regular program , highway strength and a canada-Manitoba Northlands Agreem ent , roughly ••• MR . HANUSCHAK: On a point of order , Mr.

Chairm an , the Honourable Minister is making reference to $81 milli on, a figure which I do not see in the Estimat es. I am not sure what it is that he talking about. MR . ORCHA RD: Well, Mr. Chairm an, if the Member for Burrows was listening I would indicate that it would be the total of (a ), (

b) and (

c) under Appropr iation 6. It is $80 ,9 11 ,0 00.00. MR . HA NUSCHAK : I am sorry , I am sorry . 8.(

b) and (c ). MR . ORCHA RD: (a ), (b) , (

c) under Construction of Provincial Trunk High­ ways , Provinc ial Roads and Related Projec ts . MR . HANUS CHAK: Which totals up to $7 6 milli on. MR. ORCHAR D: Which totals up to $80 ,9 11 , 600 less a re coverable of $4 ,496 ,0 00 from Northern Affai rs. MR . HANUSCHAK : I am sorry . Ye s. MR . ORCHARD: Now, we choose $80 mi llion as a rounded figure to commit work road projects in the province for a fiscal year . The Provincial Aud itor allows us to mul tiply the $80 mi llion by 1.6, which gives us a target commitment figure of $128 milli on.

Of that $128 milli on a number of the proj ects are in the first 14 pages of the Blue Book Road Program . MR . HA NUSCHAK : A point of orde r, Mr . Chairman . Ye s, I have the distinct recollection of the Minister having told us prior to the Commi ttee's rising that the first half of what is contained in this Blue Book , that is the first 15 pages , was merely a summ ary of what was done in the previous fiscal year . MR . ORCHARD: Mr . Chairman , it is a

summary of the projects which have not been compl ete d . Some of them are in progress and have not been comp leted . Now bearing in mind that we are given a mul tiple of 1. 6 times our capital construction budge t, and we rounded it off to $80 milli on ; we didn 't use the $80 ,911 ,0 00 .00. We had a target figure of $128 mi llion of construction proj ects that we could com mit to tend er , or to commit to a road program. The first 14 pages represent by the Estimates on each individual projec t some $44 million worth of work , some of which is • MR . HANUSCHAK: I am sorry , Mr. Chairman . MR .

CHAIRM AN: The Member for Burrows on a point of orde r. MR . HANUSCHAK : Ye s, when the Minister says represent $44 million worth of work, is that $4 4 million worth of work to be done? MR . ORCHARD: Some proj ects may be started , but the money has not flowed completely through. In other words, sometimes you don 't finish a road and there is $44 mi llion worth of work to be done on those 14 pages. MR . HANUSCH AK : $4 4 million worth of work that is still to be done . Carry on . - 128 0 -

Thursday , 20 March , 1980 MR . ORCHA RD: Now , there is $44 mi llion worth of work to be done on those 14 pages. We have to deduct from the $128 million that $4 4 million ; we also have to deduct from that a portion that we are going to put into a pre-advert ising program next December or Novemb er , which is normal practice to get part of the program flowing in advance of the construction season so people can move equip­ me nt , etc. , while the roads are frozen . That takes up an additional $15 milli on.

That leaves us with a total to commi t to new program , which is found in the bal­ ance of the pages, of $64, 400 ,0 00 of potential proj ects. MR . HANUSCHAK: Could the Minister now answer the question which I put to him prior to 4:3 0 in more precise terms that he ha s? How much money will he require to complete the close to 200 , well it's 218 projec ts , listed as proj ects previously program med , and how much money is there contained in the Estimates for the projects scheduled for 1980-81? MR .

ORCHARD: In precise terms , $44 million would be required to commit to complete the projects on the first 14 pages; in precise terms , $6 4.6 million would be required to complete the projec ts in the last pages , the projects in 1980-81 , in precise figures. MR. HANUS CHAK: Well , Mr . Chairman , then obviously , the figures that the Minister has given certainly don 't add up to the figures shown in the Estim ates, and I am well aware of what the Minister has just said. But the figures in the Estimates Book certainly don 't reflect that. MR. ORCHA RD: reflect that? Mr .

Chairman , what figures in the Estimates Book don't MR . HA NUSCHAK: Ye s, Mr . Chairm an , the Honourable Minister has ju st said that he still requires $4 4 million to complete the proj ects commenced last year or the previous year or whatever , and then he said that he requires an additional $64 milli on to undertake the proj ects scheduled for 1980-81 . He has shown in the Estima tes book only $60 ,4 15 ,6 00 , and I'm re ferring to that figure because (

b) is Highway Strengthening, of which there is no mention in the Highways Construction Program which he has distributed to us , plus (

c) Page 12 - one of your back­ benche rs, Mr. Minister , is attempting to help you , whether he is or not • • • I' m sure that the Honourable Minister needs all the help he can get . Plus Canada­ -Manitoba Northlands Agreement of $4 .5 milli on. So, those figures don 't add up. MR . ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman , in my explanation, and that 's why I was very care ful to point out to the Member for Burrows, that we chose the target figure of $80 mi llion, not $80 ,9 ll,O OO .OO. The $80 ,9 11 , 600 is the combina tion of all road projects which are going to be undertaken this year , found in the final pages, in order to commi t work , be cause it is imp ossible to

schedule the program only $80 milli on work in one fiscal year and ever possibly complete it. Therefo re , the auditor has allowed the Highways Departm ent , for years and years and years, to establish a 1. 6 mult iple times the capital commitment given to the Department of Highways for highway construction. Hen ce, the target figure in the program is not $80 mil lion , but is rather $128 milli on.

Now, of the $128 mi llion, $44 mi llion is found in carryover . $64 million is required to complete the new program and $15 million is set aside for a new pro­ gram which will be commi tted this fall, in December or late Novem ber , on what is called pre-advert ising, to start the construction program , but that won't show. Mr . Chairm an , the pre-advertising program doe s not show on this year 's road pro­ gram , it will show on next year 's road program . MR . HA NUSCHAK : Well then, Mr . Chairman , I think that I must take the Minister through the Highway Construction program , line by line .

I' m using both for the benefit of the honourable member who is so willing to run to the assis­ tance of the Minist er , and for his informati on , I want to indicate to him and to his Minister that , for examp le , in 1979-80 , Highway Construction program , the first line reads , Tran s-Canada Highway F.ast, mileage 2.2 mil es. Location, from west of Perim eter Highway to Plessis Road connecti on. Nature of work , acquisition - 1281 -

Thursday , 20 March , 1980 of right-of-way. And then, I look at the Tory Blue Book , which is the colour used this year , and there I find , at first line , reading exactly the same , Trans-Ganada Highway East , mi leage 2.2 miles . West of Perimeter Highway to Ple ssis Road con­ struction , acquisition of right-of-way . So therefo re , I ask the Minister , has any of that land been acquired ? Or has none been acquired? Or only a portion of it, or what? MR . ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman , that 's what I was attempting to explain to the Member for Burrows .

Anything that appears in the first 14 pages is program which has been com mitted last year . In some of it , there 's one there from two years ago, which has not been completed because of some technical di fficulty that was enc ounte red af ter it was put on the program and expected to be completed , and if it was not completed and funded , then it appears again in proj ects previously pro­ gramm ed . There are no new dollars assigned to that proj ect . MR . HANUSCH AK: Ah , but Mr.

Chairma n, the Honourable Minister must have new dollars because his prede cessor said on Monday , Apr il 24 , 1978 - and I am quoting from Page 1205 of Hansard - "My understandin g is that dollars not spent in this allocation, indeed lapse , ••• " MR . ORCHA RD: Absolutely. MR . HANUSCHAK: "· •• that there is no carryover hereon in, that we in fact will com e to that ze ro-based budgetin g concept that has been talked about". MR . ORCHARD: Absolutely , Mr. Chairman . MR .

HANUS CHAK : Now, I ask the Minister then , with respect to the first line in his highway construction program , how much money does he need to com plete the acquisition of right-of-way on Trans-Ganada Highway East? Does he need a thousand dollars , two , three , ten thousand'? Because two ·years ago , he asked for funds for the acquisition of 2.2 mil es; but assuming that he and his predecessor have been doing things, either in looking after whatever else - because I know that his predecessor had other things to do, a half-a-day a week was taken up looking after Public Works .

But I want to know whether the Minister wants funds to acqu ire 2.2 mil es, or is it only a tenth of a mile , or two-ten ths of a mi le, or whatever , for this fiscal year? MR . ORCHARD: Mr . Chairman , the Member for Burrows is hung up on two separ­ ate items . He is hung up on lapse of capital appropriation, in the ongoing commi tment of a road program . Now, at the end of this fiscal year , should the Department of Highways not expend the $68 million that were voted to it last year and only cash flow, $66 mi llion, then we lose $2 .3 mi llion in capital appropria­ tion .

But we still have the project in the program carried forward eventual completion and commi tment of dollars. Now, Mr . Chairman , because the same program shows up for two years in a row on a program , simply means that it is not completed , but those dollars are deduct ed from the target commi tment that the dep artment has to work on before they can commit any dollars whatsoever to new road program . MR . HANUS CHAK: I wish to thank the Minister for his answer . Would he then answer my question?

How many dollars does he need to complete the first proj ect listed on his blue book , Highway Construction Project Program , TCH East 2.2 mi les? MR . ORCHA RD: On that first proj ect , we have only acqu ired 11 percent of the land that we have budgeted for . MR . HANUS CHAK: Now we 'r e getting somew here . Very we ll. So , the Minister has only acquired 11 percent of the land , so there fore he still needs 90 percent , roughly , 89 percent of what was appropriated previously . Very well. Let 's move on. Trans-Ganada Highway West . Mileage , 3. 7 mil es, from west of Headingly to east of PTH 26 . - 1282 -

Thursday , 20 March , 1980 MR. ORCHARD: Mr . Chairman , the funding which is required to complete all of the projects on the first 14 pages of the road program is $4 4 milli on. MR . HANUSC HAK : What is the total value of the pr ojects listed in the first 14 pages? MR . ORCHARD: $44 mi llion. MR . HANUS CHAK : So it would appear then that there were no moneys spent on these projects during the fiscal year about to come to an end . MR . ORCHARD: The project , even though 10 percent of the property has been acquired and paid for , the project is put into the carryover at its original budgeted value .

So that that figure of $44 million represents these projects which are not completed , as if there has no work been done on them, despite the fact that some of them may be 10 , but those are the parame ters under which we have to operat e. tion. global actual MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lac du Bonnet . MR . SAMUEL USKIW: Well, Mr. Chairm an, that 's a very important clarifica­ It would be interesting to know, since this $44 million represents the budget which was originally allocated for those proj ec ts, what is the figure that will be paid out against those projects? MR .

ORCHA RD: Let me und erstand the question. You want to kno w, of the $4 4 milli on which those projects represent , whether there 's $2 mi llion of the dollars already flowed , or $20 mil l ion of the dollars • MR . USKIW: Th at's right . How much has been - no , you have indicated , sir, that the $4 4 milli on re presents the global funding for the total program of all of those items in those first 15 pages . Now , you 'v e also indicated that progress payme nts have been paid against proj ects .

So in essence, we end up with a surplus of capital here , since you won 't need the $44 million to complete the first 15 pages . MR . ORCHARD: Mr. Chairm an , I stand correc ted . The $44 mill ion is the part of the projects for which money has to be yet spent . In other words, on that first example where we have 11 percent of the land acquired , what shows up is 89 percent of what we budgete d . Okay . I was in error when I said that the total original projec t cost was part of the $44 . If you flowed 20 percent of the money only 80 percent shows up and it is part and parcel of the $4 4 mi llion. MR .

USKIW : Well, Mr . Chairman , that is quite opposite then to what the Minister originally indicated . The Minister is now saying that the $4 4 million re pre sents the monie s ye t to be spent on those projects and we would have to assume that there may have been $40 million already spent , as a figure of speech, that there were substantial sums expen ded on those projects and this is simply the balance. MR . ORCHARD : Ok ay . MR . CHAIRM AN: The Member for St . Joh ns. MR . CHERNI ACK : Thank you , Mr. Chairman . The Minister on several occasions made a statement which kind of surprises me .

He says that the Provincial Aud itor allows him to commi t, is it 1.6 times the Estimate? On what basis doe s the Auditor have the authority to allow anybody to spend money that isn 't in the Estimates? MR . ORCHARD: No , Mr. Chairman . What the Auditor allows us to do is draw up a road program based on a program which is not compl ete d, in other words, carryover program , plus a deduction for pre-advert ising , plus regular program , and - 1283 -

Thursday , 20 March , 1980 he allows us to commi t to program 1.6 times our capital budget , but he allows us only to spend what our capital budget is. MR . CHERNIACK : anything? By what authority would the Auditor be able to allow MR . ORCHARD: Well , in past years, as I tried to explain earlier on and obviously unsuccessfully, in road construction there are so many variables, name ly the weather is the major one , that it is virtually imp ossible in one year where you have an $80 mill ion road budget, to spend exac tly $80 million on projec ts .

In other words , if we onl y drew up a road program of $80 mill ion, and with the laps­ ing of capital, we would often leave $20 million and $30 million on the table , because it is imposs ible to com plete within the fiscal year the proj ects that you may wish to complete to commi t $80 milli on worth of new capital construction , as is obvious, because we have got some $44 mi llion carried over from previous years. All that does is give us the ability to have enough work in process to assure that we spend our capital budget each and every year and not have a portion of it lapse. MR . CHERNIACK : Mr.

Chairman , the Minister confuses me when he talks about capital budget . Does he have a capital fund available to him? MR . ORC HARD: A capital appropr iation of $80 milli on . MR . CHERNIAC K : I am sorry , I am not aware of a capital appropriation, and that confuses me , Mr. Chairman . Where doe s he have a capital appropriation? MR . ORCHA RD: Then if the Honourable Member for St . Johns would like it, we have a budget figure of $80 mill ion, $80 , 911 , 600 to go towards construction of roads in the province MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Burrows on a point of order . MR . HANUSCH AK : Yes, yes , okay . MR .

CHAIRMAN: The Member for St . Johns . MR . CHERNIACK : Mr. Chairman, it really has nothing to do with what I would like , it is just that the Minister , who , of course , is. new to this portfolio , I unders tand , should learn to use the terminol ogy which is commonly accepted as being understanda ble, not just to him , but correct terminology . I still do not understand on what basis he thinks the Auditor has authority to permi t a program to be prep ared . I really think the Minister means to commi t a program .

Is that not what the Minister means , that actually the Minister believes that he has the authority to commi t work to be done beyond the Estim ates, the appropriation passed in here? Isn •t that what he mean s? Because anybody can prepare a program , a five-year , a ten-ye ar , a tremendous program can be prepared; but you can 1t be com mitte d surely beyond some authorized figure . Isn •t that what the Minister means ? MR . ORCHARD: I be lieve that may be the correct terminolo gy , if that would be satisfactory .

We are allowed a target commitment in the road program which is 1.6 tim es, and I have to choose my words very carefully , if I am in error you please correct me, the budgeted amount in the appropriation of $80 milli on. MR . CHERNI ACK : Mr . Chairm an , well then commi tting doesn 't mean just list­ ing a Blue Paper with what we propose to do , but rather commi tting means to invite bids and enter into contract s. Isn 't that correct ? MR . ORCHA RD: In some projec ts, yes . Mll. CHERNIACK : My point , Mr .

Chairman , is that when you invite bids and you enter into contrac ts , you are apparently permitted to do that beyond the - 1284 -

Thursday , 20 March , 1980 Estimates figure , and when the Minister says in "some" projec ts , I say a limit of projec ts . There has to be a lim it, which he says is 1.6 times the Est imate per­ mitted . Now when he said $80 milli on, I thought I understood him to say that that was perm itted in the appropriations of the year about to ex pire . Am I mistaken in that? Did I no t hear him correctly? MR . ORCHA RD: You didn 't hear me correctly . MR . CHERNIACK : Was that for this coming year? MR . ORCHARD: That is correct . MR . CHERNIACK : For the year about to expire it was $68 million? MR .

ORCHARD : That is correct . MR . CHERNI ACK : And the Minister says that they were permitted to comm it, I am now using the words which I think are correct , but I want him to tell him , 1.6 times $68 mi llion for the year about to expire . Is that correct? MR . ORCHA RD: That is correc t. MR . CHERNI ACK : Now the only other thing is that I don't believe the Audi­ tor has authority to permit anyth ing . The Auditor can only certify that whatever is being done has been done in accordance with the law. The Minister intimated that this has been done for a long time , and I don 't quite think that is right .

I think that what has been done in the past when we had capital and current , that there was a capital item available to be used by Highways in order to permit them to take advantage of exce ptionally good seasons and in order to permit them to invite bids at an early time of the year so that they can get the contractors crackin g . I really think that the Minister is confused , or maybe doesn 't know the basis for this.

The reason I mention it is, that I would assume his de partment would know, because again they are working ahead and projecting what they are going to do, and I would say to the Minister if he has $80 milli on in the current Estimates he should be planning to spend all 80 million in this coming year . That is not just a figure that they draw out as being a good looking figure and there­ fore on that basis can he tell us how is dep artment would arrive at the figure of 80 plus apparently 1. 6? Where is their authority to do that? MR .

ORCHARD: The authority is based on past practise in the department with the approval of the provincial auditor . MR . CHERNI ACK : Mr. Chairman , we are quite a way of f from the Minister 's Salary , and I would invite the Minister to find out where the authority is. The authority can not be based on past practise . That isn't in my opinion an author­ ity to spend money or to commit the expenditure of money . Past practise doesn 't work when you deal with taxpayers ' money , and I invite the Minister to get the correct answer , not only for his elucidation but for the com mittee as wel l.

I won 't press it , but just tell him that I don't think he 's giving the correct answer , and I can see he doesn 't know it. I don 't pretend that I know it , I' m just pretty sure that he 's wrong , and by the time we get to his Salary possibly he can give us the correct on e. MR . ORCHARD: Mr . Chairman , in the construction year of 1970 and 71 we had approved expendit ure of $30 ,869 ,0 00, which was mu ltiplied by a mult iple of 1. 535 to arrive at a commi tted program . We can go through the various years up until 1976- 77.

The de partment com mitted 1.5 49 over their approved expend iture , 1. 566 over their approved expenditu re , 1. 799 over their approved expend iture , 1. 977 over their approved expend iture , 1. 59 over their approved expend iture , 1.24 over their approved expenditu re , all to commit road projec ts in add ition to their approved expendit ures, and as a result we use as a rule of thumb , 1.6, and it is de rived from past experienc e, and I have from 1970-71 construction season up until - 128 5 -

Thursday , 20 Mar ch, 1980 1976-77 , as the target years under which those kind of multiples that I ju st gave the honourable member were used . MR . CHERNIACK : Mr . Chairm an , the historical accounting is interestin g , but does not answer my ques tion , which is, on what basis does the Min ister believe he has the authority to commit the taxpayers of Manitoba to spen d up to 160 percent of the amount voted to him ? Now as I say , he's in charge of the taxpayers ' expen­ ditures here . I' m quite sure it is not done , because it was done in the past .

I am quite sure it 's done because there 's a legal authority so to do . And I don 't want to pre ss him, as I said earlier , I just invite him to fami liarize himself with the correct position so he can tell us . I have to assure him that he's not giving us the correct picture because he 's not giving us any picture of where the authority actually lies . It 's certainly not in the auditor .

So if the Minist er wants to discuss this further now, I' m willing to do it , but I suggest to him in a friendly way that he should find out exactly where the authority lies and then we can get better informa tion on that point . MR . CHAIRM AN: The Member for River Heights . MR. GARY FILMON (R iver Heights ): Mr. Chairman , this seems to be a similar procedure to what we used to follow in the city , a nd if I may clarify maybe , that it requires a commi tment to a certain number of projects to be completed , of which only ce rtain aspects of them on a cash flow basis will be completed in any given year .

So by rule of thumb , someb ody has come up with the fact that if you commi t approximately 1.6 times what you normally intend to spend in a ye ar, that the cash flow will work approxima tely to what you have in the expen ditures. Is that what it is? MR . ORCHA RD: I understand - the process as indicated by the Member for River Heights is the general process that we attempt to us e. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for St . Johns . MR . CHERNI ACK: Mr.

Chairm an, I should like to suggest to the Member for River Heights who is Legislative Assistant to the Minister of Financ e, that he should get toge ther with the Minister of Agriculture and find out what is the law and what is the authority -- ( Inte rje ction)- - the Minister of Highways and the Minister of Finance , because the Minister of Finance should know better than either of the two gentlem en. I only say that in the sense he 's been around longer .

I want to tell the Honourable Minister and the Honourable Legislative Assistant to the Minister of Financ e, that if you'r e commi tting yourself, you are bound , and you don 't bind yourself beyond the authority you have to pay the cheques. I believe it was done a long time ago and was corrected a long tim e ago , and I think I know how . I don 't have the opportunity here to find out exac tly. I again invite both gentlem en, who have spoken with some authority, that they should find out what the situation is and then they can tell us once they know, rather than guess. MR .

CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Heights . MR . FILMON: Mr. Chairm an, in any types of proj ects , road construction, highway engineerin g pr ojec ts , there are certain levels of commi tm ent . There are commitments to design and there are commitments to tendering proj ects in pieces and there are commi tments to all sorts of prelimary expenditures like land acqui ­ sition , and so on. Conseque ntly , it may be that when one commits to a proj ect, it doesn 't all have to be spent in one year and it doe sn 't violate any regulations with respect to the expenditu re of money com mitted . MR .

CHAIRMAN: The Member for St . Johns . MR . CHERNI ACK: Mr . Chairman , I have to tell the honourable , the Legisla­ tive Assistant to the Minister of Financ e, that we 'r e not talking about commi tment to a piece of a program or to an engineering proj ect. We are talking about 1. 6 - 128 6 -

Thursday , 20 March , 1980 times the past estimates being commi tted to be spent . And once you sign a con­ tract to spend it, you sign a contract to spend all of it , not a piece of it , and I invite him once mor e, and I still say it in a friendly way, to find out whereo f he speaks, and not necessarily relate it to a practise that he may or may not be correct , in the city of Winnipeg. MR . CHAIRM AN: 6.( a) . The Member for Fort Rouge . MRS. JUNE WESTBURY (F ort Rouge ): Thank you, I hope this is the right place.

I say that I pre face everythin g so that people will know my intentions are honourable at all tim es. MR . CHERNIACK: Honourable. MRS . WEST BURY: Ye s, honourable . I' m not trying to put anything through on somebody . --(I nterjecti on )-- No , I won 't be gentlemanly , as the Attorney-General suggested yesterd ay , we all were .

I wanted to ask a question about Highway No . 59 , on page 3 of the blue sheets here . 15 .9 miles was in the projects previously programm ed , and I wond ered why - this is for acquisition of right-of-way additional lanes - why there is nothing in the 80 -81 expenditures for work on the highway , or am I reading it wrongly? MR . ORCHAR D: extra lanes. Acquisition of right-of-way is the step prior to grading MRS . WEST BURY : Right . MR . ORCHARD: And it doesn 't necessarily mean that even though you have the right-of-way the next year , you proceed with the grading of the lanes.

That is contin gent on the amou nt of budget you have and the funds that are available. MRS. WESTBURY : Yes, through you , Mr. Chairm an, to the Minister , I under­ stand that , but the proposals we have here , the project ions I think are for two years, '80 and '81, and I wond ered why there was an acquisition of nearly 16 miles and then no work was to be done on it over the coming two years in an area .

I' ve been listening to some of the press reports and I have heard suggestions that highways that are in NDP areas are not getting funds , and I'd like to suggest to you that Highway 59 for about 8 months of the year is travelled probably, the majority of those travelling it are from River Heights , Osborne, Crescentwood, Tuxedo , Fort Garry and the west end of Winnipeg on their way to the beaches.

So that when we 'r e talking about the beach highways - I' m not part of that accusa­ tion, of course - this is a very heavily-travelled highway, as most of the beach highways are , for certain times of the year and this is the same highway that I was talking the other night about gravel trucks and other similar problems . I would like to know why there seems to be no intention of working on the 16 miles that have been acquired . MR . ORCHA RD: Mr . Chairman , you can certainly see by the comme nts of the Member for Fort Rouge that any accusations that this was a crass political docu­ ment are totally unfounded .

MRS . WEST BURY : I wasn 't saying that. MR . ORCHA RD: No , I realize that. I' m just saying that you realize now that those allegations were completely unf ounded . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste . Rose . MR . A. R. (P ete ) ADAM: I wonder if the Minister could tell us how much does he require to finish the first 14 pages of the one book? How much is re­ qu ired to finish that? MR . ORCHARD: $44 mi llion. - 1287 -

Thursday , 20 March, 1980 MR . ADAM: $44 mi llion. How much is required to finish the last part of it? MR . ORCHA RD : The commitment on the 1980-81 projects are a total of $6 4.4 milli on. MR . ADAM : The Minister needs $108 million to complete those two projects? Is that correc t? MR . ORCHARD : That is correct . MR . HANUSCHAK: All of which is not shown in the Est imates of $108 mil­ lion. In other word s, it says that he needs $108 million to complete the road construction program , which is shown in the Tory Blue Book bef ore us , but he only has $80 milli on shown in the Estimates books .

So he needs an additional $28 mill ion. MR . ORCHA RD: That is correct . MR . HANUSCHA K: Which is not contained there . Which is a further $28 milli on deficit that this --(I nterjecti on )-- the Honourable Member for Minnedosa wishes to assist the Honourable Minister . I' m not sure whether he wishes to accept his assistance or not . If he does • MR . ORCHARD : Mr. Chairman , to help put the Honourable Member for Burrows' mind at ease, that is why next year , when the Tory Blue Book is printed , there may well be $44 mi llion of carryover work next year .

Or a figure somewhere in that neighbourhood , of unf unded carryover work . MR . CHAIRMAN: 6.( a)- -pass - the Member for Ste . Rose . MR . ADAM: The Member for Rupertsland is not here , he 's in the other com­ mi ttee , and he has asked me to ask how much will be spent on 304 this year . For the crushed rock . MR.

ORCHARD: I don 't know what the contract is worth , nor do I know how much it will be expended , but that was one of the pre-advertis ing proj ects which was pre-advertised in December of this year and the contractor is working on it right now, and we won't know how many dollars are spent , but it will be , well, it will be one of the projects that will be commi tted this year and complet ed . MR . ADAM : All those pre-tend ering, that 's all finished now, the tenders have come in and the contracts are let . Is that correct ? MR . ORCHA RD: programs. I believe they 'r e all to tend er .

All the pre-advertising MR. ADAM: So we don 't have a figure exactly on what the 304 is, eh? MR . ORCHA RD: Mr. Chairm an , we don 't have a figure on it and we won 't have until after the project is compl eted . It was pre-advertised , the crushing is on-going right no w, and we won 't know the quantities that he crushed and applied until after it happen s this summ er . MR . ADAM : I see . Last year we requested , there were 4.9 miles of work done on PR 27 8, and I just want to read from the Minister 's comm ents . When I enquired last year about PR 278, here 's what he said.

"B ut we are , to repeat again , proceeding with work on 278 involving resurfacing and blacktopping . I be lieve a contract , I be lieve of seven or eight mi les. 11 I' m wonderin g what hap­ pened to the seven or eight miles . We did 4.7, 4.9. MR . ORCHARD: I believe the contract was let at 4.9 mi les, Mr. Chairman . - 1288 -

Thursday , 20 March , 1980 MR . ADAM : That 's right . I •m wond ering why that wasn't completed , because those are some of the petitions that the Minister has received this year . I know the Minister will remember the petitions with all the letters and all the signa­ ture s on them , to finish that three , four , miles that would have brought that highway up to the school where the buses are going . The Minister still insists that the document we have bef ore us is not a politi­ cal document .

We took the trouble to look at some of the proj ects for the new program , and we find that in the 1980-81 program , under Des ign Study , Divided Highways , 3.7 in Progress ive Conservative constituen cies, in acquisition of right­ -of-way we find 26 2.3 mi les of acquisition of hig hways , which indicates to us what is going to happen in the future . This is future program s. Opposed to that we find six miles in non-Conservative ridings , acquisition of highways , as opposed to 262 .3 mi les for acquisition of hi ghways in Conservative areas. This is in southern Man itoba.

Out of 142 programs or projec ts, we find 126 allocated to Conservative areas and 16 to non- Conservative constituenc ies. Base and asphalt sur face treat­ ment : we find 138 .9 miles in Conservative constituencies and none in NDP areas . In grade and gravel and second lift: we find 219 .30 miles in Conservative consti­ tuencies and none in New Dem ocratic Party constituencie s. In base and bituminous paveme nt: we find 97 .70 miles in Conservative constituencies and we find about 1/2 a mile , .49 mi les in the town of Selki rk.

Pavement: we find 7 .75 miles and ni l, well there is a bit in Selkirk, pavement and bitumino us. One-half a mile of bitumi nous recap in • • base and bituminous: 15 .72 miles in • And the Minister still insists that this is not a political document , Mr . Chairm an. I would like to read - the Member for Rock Lake last year , I believe it was , was saying that at last we had a road program that looked after all of Manitoba.

"I think that from the program ," and I am reading from the Member for Rock Lake 's comm en ts, "I think that from the program that we have today , I believe that the present Minister is showing much greater concern for the people of Manitoba, generally speaking , and we were accustomed to reviewing year after year when the NDP were in power ." I don't say that facetiously , but I say it sincerely and honestly , because I tell you , Mr .

Chairma n, when looking at the proposed program today and looking at the program we have been pursuing over the years, I was pleased to hear, in fact I was surprised to hear the comments of my colleague from Dauphin as to how partisan and parochial the previous Minister of Highways could possibly be when he was running Highways . And I ask the Member for Rock Lake and the Minister to take a look at this document today . I say it is a disgrace to the people of Manitoba, Mr. Chairma n, because if you look at the map , we have taken pains to show what it looks it .

The black is Conservative constituencies and those highway programs in orange are New Democ ratic . MR . HA NUSCHAK: Billie has a bit up by Vegar and Pete has a bit along Lake Dauphin. This isn 't Pete's ? MR . ADAM : Anyb ody who says that this isn't a flagrant political highway program had better come and look at what he is talking about , and the Member for Rock Lake had better look at the highway map to see what it is like. MR . HANUSCH AK: Well, there it is. MR . CHAIRMAN: One speaker at a time , Comm ittee . The Honourable Minister . MR . ORCHA RD: The Member for Ste.

Rose had some figures of bitiminous pave­ ment . What were the figures in so-called NDP constituencie s again? MR . ADAM: The figures I was giving were for southern Manitoba. MR . ORCHARD: Oh , you were talking about the NDP constituencies in southern Manitoba. No wo nder you didn 't find any road work in them , because there are no NDP constituencies in southern Manitoba . MR . PAWLEY: Oh , we ll, that shows how little you kno w. MR . ORCHARD: Where is an NDP constituen cy in southern Manitoba? - 128 9 -

Thursday , 20 March , 1980 MR . HOWARD PAWLEY (S elkirk ): You are speaking to one right now. MR . ORCHA RD: Does the Member for Ste. Mccreary or doe s he not? -- (I nterj ections )- ­ McCreary in your constituency? Rose represent the commu nity of Do you represent the comm unity of MR . ADAM: Southern Manitoba is Swan River and south. MR . ORCHA RD: I would suggest that there are 16 miles of butiminous pave­ ment going in your constituen cy ••• MR . CHAIRM AN: Ord er . Ord er . The Honourable Minister . MR. ORCHA RD: that you don 't know about, obviously. MR . CHA IRMAN : The Member for Ste.

Rose, if he wants the Chair, get the Chairman 's eye . MR . ADAM : I have mentioned 15 .72 mil es. I have mentioned that . 14 .8, and it is not really a const ituency road , it is a road that goes through No . 5 going to Flin Flon, Dauphin and Roblin and Saskatchewan . A constituency road is what you see here , Mr. Minist er . All these roads are going north and south, that is constituen cy roads . MR . ORCHARD : Including No . 5. MR . CHAIRM AN: The Member for Selkirk. MR. PAWLEY : Mr.

Chairman , I was intendin g to deal with some other It ems , but I must admit to be somewhat taken back by the analysis that was done by the Member for Ste. Rose . It seems that accordin g to the opinion of the Minister of Highways , any constit uency that is represente d by a New Democrat has beautiful roads that are in top shape and don't require any work to be done , no improve­ men ts, and it is only in Conservative ridings in southern Manitoba that there are road problems .

I am not surprised , I don't think any of us should be surprised , because we have witnessed this sort of attitude, the sort of mentality of the Minister of Highways and his fellow colleagues, so I am temporar ily surprised , but it do es fit in with what we would an ticipate from the Minister of Highways throughout.

Some reference was made to the past eight years - the Member for River Heights wasn 't here - I am sure tfiat the road program would show variations from year to year durin g that eight-year period , but I want to tell the Member for River Heights that there was always a much more reasonable proportion of work bein g done in opposition ridings during each and every one of those eight-year periods than you will find here . Mr .

Chairman , I don't believe I could be contradicted that if we did a similar analysis for the past 50 years, that we would never never find such a blatant example of the sort of narrow partisan ship, as we have come to expect to be exhi­ bited by the present Minister , the present Premier of this province and his col­ leagues. It come s as little surprise , the people of Manitoba I think are recog­ niz ing it and I believe this only confirms it.

To get back to the question, I would like to just ask the Minister by way of information, if the highway program is det ermined - obviously it is det ermined by a Comm ittee of Cabinet . Can the Minister indicate the memb ers that serve on that Comm ittee? MR . ORCHARD: Ye s, Mr . Chairm an , the Minister of Highways is on that Com mittee . MR . PAWLEY: Ye s, and the other Ministers? MR . ORCHA RD: There are none. - 1290 -

Thursday , 20 March , 1980 MR . PAWL EY: Is the Minister then indicating that the road work that is outlined in this program came by way of recomme ndations as a whole from his offi­ cials, or did they come as a result of his own determin ation along with consul ta­ t ion with his colleagues? MR . ORCHA RD: The road program is det ermined from a choice of a number of projects by myse lf. MR . HANU SCHAK : 1977 election results . MR .

PAWLEY : When the Minister was provided with choices, am I to assume that his choices represented two percent in New Dem ocratic Party ridings and 98 percent of the work in Conservat ive ridings? Is that the choices that were provided to him by his officials? MR . ORCHARD: I am not too certain whether the honourable member has his percentages corre ct . MR . PAWL EY: Mr . Chairman , I may have been a little bit liberal to the governme nt , maybe it is 98.5 percent , but thereabouts , 98 percent .

I gather the proportion of approvals were pretty well in line with the sort of re comm endations he rece ived from his officials. Is that what the Minister is telling us? MR . ORCHA RD: Mr . Chairman , what I am indicating to the Honourable Leader of the Opposition, is that of a number of choices the road program as printed in the final pages of the Blue Book were the ones that I chose to proceed with. MR . PAWLE Y: I think the Minister is assuming the re sponsibility for that which we have bef ore us. Is this program approved by Cabinet as a whole? MR .

ORCHA RD: Well, the program is always approved, ma jo r capital expend i­ ture s, after I draw up the program , is shown to my Cabinet colleagues as it was in the past . Nothing has changed on that program . MR . PAWL EY: Mr . Chairman , just so that we could be a little bit more precise. The dollars for the program or the actual program are the details of the individual road construction, which , or both? MR . ORCHA RD: The details for the construction program , the dollar fund ing, is det ermined , as it always has been, by Cabinet deci sion as to where the funding priorities go .

I draw up the road program as Minister responsible for the Depart­ ment and show it to my Cabinet colleagues, naturally. MR . PAWLEY : The Minister is indicating that the details as outlined in the Blue Program before us was approved by his First Minister and Cabinet colleagues? MR . ORCHA RD: My colleagues approved my program, ye s. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Gladstone . The Leader of the Opposition. MR . PAWLEY: Mr. Chairma n, the question I did want to pose earlier to the Minister , until I was taken back by the precise analysis by the Member for Ste .

Rose, is what are the plans pertaining to the River Road along the Red River north of Winnipeg insofar as the steady erosion of those banks into the river? There was monies last year , and I believe there is some reference to possible acquisi­ tion of right-of-ways and/or rip-rap. I just would li ke some indication from the Minister as to his intent ions during the coming fiscal year . MR . ORCHA RD: Mr. Chairman , there is nothing for that road project in this year 's project scheduling . MR . PAWL EY: Well , Mr. Chairman , I thought we had observed some thing here .

Is the Minister telling us that there is no monies in his budget at all for the - 1291 -

Thursday , 20 March , 1980 River Road , which is part of the agreement that had been intended , that the River Road would be upgraded pertaining to the Fed eral-Provincial Historic Sites Agree­ ment ? Is the Minister telling us that there is no monies for that road at all this year? MR . ORCHA RD: Well , Mr. Chairman , I am informed that there are no funds yet appropriated in that agreement for road construction. MR . ORCHA RD: Mr. Chairm an , I thought the Leader of the Opposition was asking me if there was moneys in the program for reconstruction and rebuilding of that road, which there isn 't.

However , there is always money in the maintenance program to maintain and fi x road failures. MR . PAW LEY: Including the banks . MR . ORCHA RD: If that 's part of the road . MR. PAWLEY: Mr . Chairm an , I just wish I could get my finger on it , because I had noticed earlier reference to acquisition 230, acquisition of right-of-ways along that road. Mr . Chairman , maybe some other member could carry on and I' 11 try to pin that down if the Minister is not aware of any re ferenc e. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for Gladstone . MR . JAMES R. FER GUSON (Gladstone ): Well thanks, Mr. Chairma n.

I guess I' m one of those people that reap the benefits under this fair and reasonable govern­ ment that operated in the province from 1969 till 1977, and in that period of eight years I could point out a few things to my honourable friends across the way , and also dealing with the present programs as of the last two years. Numbe r one , I think , would have to be that I can recall going across to the Minister of Highways, Mr.

Borowski, in 1969 and enqu iring about a piece of road that was on the highway program ; and his reply to me was , "Y ou can go to hell, I'm looking after these guys first ." And he pointed at the honourable bunch of gentlem en, unfortu na tely a few of them are still here . But, getting back to tonight , I'l l start at 1969, an d I also have a map here . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lac du Bonn et on a point of order . MR . USKIW : I' m just wond ering , Mr. Chairman , whether you couldn 't rule on whether it •s fortunate or unfortunate that there 's an official opposition here tonight .

The Member for Gladstone suggests unf ortunately that we are here . I' m just wonderin g whether that has the approval of the Chair. MR . CHAIRM AN: I don 't think that 's a point of order . The Member for Gladstone. MR . FERGUSON: Well , Mr . Chairm an , I certainly wouldn't want to hurt the Member for Lac du Bonnet 's feelings . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Leader of the Opp osition on a point of order . MR . PAWL EY: Well, Mr. Chairma n, I had acceded for a moment till I got the information because the Minister wasn 't able to apparently single it out for me so I now I have it; 238, it's on page 6. MR .

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Gladstone has the floor . MR . FE RGUSON : Well he gave his point of order . Well he started in talking about 238 so I guess he was . MR. CHAIRMAN: I call this commi ttee to order . The Member for Gladstone . - 1292 -

Thursday , 20 March , 1980 MR . FERGUSON: Thank you , Mr. Chairman . Now going back to 1969 , I also in case there are a few people in the back of the room that would like to have a look at the highway map , you can take the area through here . No , not south of the Tran s-Canad a, a lot of mine is north of the Trans-Canada ; and in 1969, there are no coloured marks whatever . 1970 there are non whatever . That means that there 's no land acquisition, no grade and gravel or no bituminous surface. The only road done in those seven years was an addition to No . 1, which was four la nes .

As far as the PTH road that went , there was at no time anything done on it . In 197 5-76, we did take the trouble of marking it in blue where the road program went , and I will point out to you , Mr. Chairm an, check the area that was held by the former Member for Gimli , Mr . Gottfried , blue ; Mr . Pawley , blue ; Mr . Uskiw, blue ; Mr . Watt , blue ; Mr. Hend erson , one little spot ; Mr. Derewianchuk , blue . Well, the map is so blue , you get up in the area around Dauphin where we had a fellow by the name of Burtniak , who was the Highway Minist er, and they were almost laying pave­ ment on pavem en t .

You know the thing was just about solid blue . Go down into Ste. Rose, blue , blue , blue. Now of course , that wasn 't a political document , was it? Not at all. But take a look across here . In 1975-76 , 9.2 miles . And over here , 9.2 mil es. That to me reads 18 .4 miles a year in 197 5-76, not for one or two areas , but for the whole southwest corner of Manitoba. So don 't talk about a political docum ent , my friends. MR . CHAIRMAN: Ord er . The Member for Gladstone has the floor . MR . FER GUSON: Thank you .

Now going back to the new documen t, I can report that there wasn 't altogether that much in my constituency at that time either , but I will give marks to the former Minister of Highways . He did have the decency to finish off the roads that weren 't completed ; if they were in the grade or gravel stage, many of them were surfaced . The Member for Ste. Rose certainly can 't take any credit for it , but it happened in his constituency . But they did have the common decency of finishing roads , and they did have the common decen cy of going ahead and more or less com pleting what had been started .

It wasn 't going back to the 196 9 road program again where the Minister of Highways tore the thing up and said , that was the Torie s we 're writing ours. And that 's his prerogative , if that 's what he wants to do . But to sit and listen to my honourable friends talk about a poltical docum ent , my God , I would say if it wasn 't unparliamentary that it was the heighth of hypocrisy, but of course I' 11 have to wi thdraw that so I can 't say it . I guess you could say th at, well I wouldn't want to go through the thing of having you fellows go through a point of order again.

You have such touchy feelings and I really feel badly . But we do have a bit of a forward-going program now and recognizing the fact that, in most of our ridings , we are losing our elevators and our rail lines etc. , etc. , that we do have to have some major roads or some upgradings of our roads . But the Member for Ste.

Rose says , so do we; but recognizing that over the past I would say four years that he has probably picked up more bituminous road than probably the seven constituencies from Portage southwest have , I would think that possibly he co uld bear with us for a little while and let us do a little catching up . --(I nterjecti on)-- Well, I' ve got to agree with the Member from Inkster that there should be a change of governm ent , but I would hope that it will be in about 12 years so that we do get a chance to upgrade the system of roads in the produc­ ing part of Manitoba that basically is the hub of the wheel that keeps the agri­ cultural economy in this province rolling.

MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rock Lake . The Member for Lac du Bonnet on a point of clarification. MR . USKIW : Ye s, I wanted to find out from the Member for Gladstone just what sectors of Manitoba are nonproducing sectors geographically in his opinion . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Gladstone . MR . FERGUSON : Mr. Chairm an, I would suggest that an ywhere from Churchill down to about 50 mi les, or 75 or 100 mi les north of Winnipeg. - 129 3 -

Thursday , 20 March , 1980 MR. USKIW: Heavenly days . Well, we ll, well - I'm sure there will be a number of people interested in that. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rock Lake. MR . HENRY J. EI NARS ON: Well, Mr. Chairm an , I came here this evening , not with the intenti ons of getting involved in the deb ate, because I can recall when we were on the opposition , I don 't recall ever going back into the annals of the history of what someo ne had said in previous years. Rather , we dealt with the document as it was presented to us. I think the Member for Ste.

Rose, quoting some of the things that I had said a couple of years ago - and I stand by those words, Mr. Chairm an. I do recall - and I'd like to also go back when the NDP be came the government of this province - and I do recall the kind of standardize d program that we had for our PR ro ads . The condition that our PR roads in my particular part of the coun try were in 1969 when we left office and the condition of those same roads three years down the road , I want to say , Mr.

Chairma n, were completely and absolutely deplorable; be cause the then Minister of Highways, as my colleague from Gladstone mention ed , Joe Borowski, decided that he was going to change the formula which we used in upgrading and maintain ing our PR roads , that is that were gravel roads . I can recall how my constituents complained because we had established what we thought was a fairly realistic and a good road program for your PR roads as far as the gravel was conc erned . Mr . Chairman , and also I make these comme nts because it appals me when particu­ larly the Member for Ste.

Rose sits in his chair and accuses my colleague, the Minister of Highways , of a pol tical crass document that he 's presenting to the members of this Legislature. Well, Mr. Chairma n, the Leader of the Opposition , he 's sort of jokin g , saying they shouldn 't have done that . I think , Mr. Chairm an , we sit back and listen to the kind of criticism they are giving , but you know as far as I' m concerned , I take so much of it, and I think that we have to fight back in realistic terms . I want to, Mr .

Chairm an , just use the year 1976-77 , and I have the program here , where our road systems that were used • • • and really , when I look at the map for 1976 -77 , there wasn •t all that terrible much roadwork really done . I don 't know what they did with money . But , Mr. Chairm an , I'l l talk on my own constituen cy , there wasn 't one dollar spent in my constituency and I can honestly say that. But I' m given to understand that in the Member for Ste. Rose's area this year , he 's getting some money spent in his const ituency .

That 's more than I got in 1976- 77; and I can say the same thing for the whole west and the whole south of Manitoba in 1976 -77 , with excep tion just a few miles on Provincial Trunk Highway No . 10 , which was a road they pretty well had to recognize as a main trunk highway which connected the United States of America to the northern points of the constituencies which they represented in those days . And that 's the only reason , I would suggest , Mr. Chairm an , that they felt they had to spend a few dollars on No . 10 Highway in 197 6-77· So for the Member for Ste .

Rose to sit in his chair and have the gall and the audacity to accuse us of political crass politics is something - you know, Mr. Chairman , the termi nology they like to use - what I would suggest , Mr. Chairm an , is playing dangerously with the truth, the words which the Member for Ste. Rose chose to use . Mr.

Chairman , I want those members to understand th at, and I would be ruled out of order , Sir, if I were to get into other de partments but we could if we had the opportunity , and we will remind honourable members opposite that we are concerned about the people in their constituencies when it comes to health and other things. So , Mr . Chairman , I want to say that the members opposite have no foundation whatsoever for the kind of comments they are making in regards to our road pro­ gram . Mr .

Chairm an , we are merely ea tching up because of a vacuum that we were practically in for eight years in south and western J.l.tl.nitoba . Mr. Chairma n, I say thanks that we have a government that 's going to give some recognition, while at the same time still going to look after the Member for Ste. Rose , because I'd like him to challenge and deny that he 's not having a dollar spent in his constituency . Thank you , Mr. Chairm an. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Leader of the offic ial Opposition . - 1294 -

Thursday , 20 March , 1980 MR. PAWL EY: Mr . Chairman , it's obvious that the Member for Ste . Rose has done an excellent job of getting und er the skin of the Members for Gladstone and Rock Lake . By their protesting they obviously indicate a certain amount of guilt complex about what 's happening . They come in here with maps all outlined . Ob­ viously, they know in their own hearts just what sort of blatant sort of partial­ ity is being demonstrated in respect to the road program .

They know that in 1969-70-71 - and I think some credit should go here because the former Minister of Highways, Borowski, has been referred to a number of time s - he assumed the respon sibility for the portfolio after years and years of total and absolute neglect of northern Manitoba . In fact, we had a Member for Churchill, Gordon Beard , who sat in the Conservative caucus and finally couldn 't stomach it anymore because they ignored , they accepted the attitude that was just expressed this even ing by the Member for Gladstone .

Northern Manitoba didn 't exist , it wasn 't a product ive part of the province of Manitoba , and Gordon Beard walked across the aisle. And , Mr. Chairm an , again we have the re-occurrence of the total and complete ignoring of the highway and road needs of northern Manitoba. MR . ORCHA RD: False . MR . PAWLEY : And , Mr. Chairman , in reference to the maps , it was the former Minister • MR . CHA IRMAN : Ord er . One speaker at a tim e . The Leader of the Official Opposition. MR .

PAWL EY: the former Minister of Highways , the Honourable Joe Borowski , he had strengths and he had weakn esses, that recognized the need for cat ching up after 11 years of Tory neglect in northern Manitoba , and I think that the Honourable Memb er for Rock Lake and the Honourable Member for Gladstone might have expre ssed some balance in their statements pertain ing to the ef forts by the then Minister , Joe Borowski .

Getting back to my earlier question which I wanted to deal with , and which the Minister couldn 't get track of, 238, Page 6, makes reference there to comme nce acquisition of right-of-way and/or river banks utilization. I would like the Minister to deal with the possibility of acquisition of right-of-way , what he has in mind in that regard . MR . ORCHARD: I' m sorry , I missed the member 's last comm ents .

That parti­ cular road , as the member is well aware, is part of the ARC Agreem ent , and we have one of our senior staff representing the department on the ARC Agreem ent , hoping to negotiate with the fed eral government for fund ing of road de velopment , parti­ cularly with 23 8 in mi nd . MR. PAWLE Y: Is this the commi ttee that 's chaired by one Thomas Denton? Advisory Com mittee? MR . ORCHA RD: I don't know. MR . PAWLE Y: Can the Minister add any further informa tion at all to what's on his program? Because on his program he does make re ference to commence acqui­ sition of right-of-way.

Are the plans developed there pertaini ng to • • Mr. Chairm an, again, to the Minist er, are there plans in that respect to the river road, to permi t the proceeding with right-of-way? MR . ORCHA RD: Mr. Chairman, that particular appropriation of six miles for acqu isition of right-of-way or river bank stabilization has been on the program for several years. MR. PAWL EY: So what the Minister is really indicating to us , that we needn 't take this too seriously, then, insofar as this year is concerned , that nothing too much is likely to happen. Am I fair in my

interpretation of what the Minister is indicating? - 1295 -

Thursday , 20 March, 1980 MR . ORCHA RD: Mr. Chairm an , there may well be work done on that if the negotiations with the fed eral government and the ARC Agreement proceed far enough along that we can have a commi tment for reconstruct ion, cost-sharing of recon­ struction with the federal governm ent . MR . PAWLEY: Would the Minister then like to elaborate as to how those negotiations are proceed ing, and at what stage they are , pertaining to the road . MR . ORCHA RD: Mr. Chairman , they 're going very , very slowly.

The Honour­ able Leader of the Opposition will recall that there was no government in Ottawa from December 18th , or whatever it was, until just very recently . With the reorganiza tion, the change of Ministers, many , many, many ongoing discussions that we were undertakin g are now having to be restarted , and that is one of them . It has been delayed by three to four mont hs. MR . PAWL EY: The Minister says, since May . There was a group that pre­ tended to be a government from May till December of last year .

Did anything happen during that period of tim e , or did , like so m any other areas , nothing de velop , so we had no government during that period of time . MR. ORCHARD: Mr . Chairman , at the risk of getting into an argument with the Honourable Leader of the Opposition in his blatantly wrong statement that nothin g went on; in case he didn 't know, many many things were developing under the Ministry of the Honourable Don Mazankowski , as fed eral Minister of Tran spor­ tation. Many projec ts , ma inly the saving of approxima tely 230 mi les of rail line in the province of Manitoba.

The almost completed agreement on Yellowhead Highway funding with the federal governme nt , many , many programs were being unde rtaken , act ively pursued , and would have resulted in federal contribution to this year 's road program , had we had a Conservative admi nistration in place in Ottawa at this time . Now that the government has changed and we have a federal Liberal adminis­ tration, negotiations start from Square On e, and I don 't anticipate having any new dollars come into the province of Manitoba for highway construction .

Now the Honourable Leader of the Oppo sition would like to say that nothing went on. Well, he's li ving with his head buried in the sand if he makes that comment about the federal transportation mi nistry under the capable leadership and direc­ tion of the Honourable Don Mazankowski . The man is completely wrong . MR . PAWL EY: Mr. Chairman , I know the Minister enj oys undertaking self­ -serving statem ents, it 's somewhat typical of him . But I'd like to get back to the river road. Was there any progress made pertain ing to discussions relating to the river road .

We can discuss the other areas of activity at some other point , but we 'r e dealing with the river road , during the entire period of 1979 - January 1, 1979 to Decemb er 31, 1979 . MR . ORCHA RD: Very little, Mr. Chairman . MR . PAWLE Y: And can the Minister advise whether anythin g took place January l, 1978 , to December 31 , 1978 ? MR . ORCHA RD : No , I cann ot , Mr. Chairman. MR. PAWLE Y: And it appear s, the Minister has, again, please correct me if I' m wrong, the Minister has as muc h as indicated that we ought not to expect too much , January l, 1980 , to December 31 , 1980. MR . ORCHA RD: Mr.

Chairman , I would assume that provincial road 238 has existed in the province since 1969 , and I would assume that in the past year­ -and-a-half, as much activity has gone on on provincial road 238 in the last year-and- a-half as it did in the previous nine years bef ore that. MR . PAWLE Y: Mr. Chairm an, I' m deal ing with representations that have been included in the highway program , I believe , ever since 1978 , '7 9 , now into 19 80. That 's what we 'r e dealing with , representation s, and yet we see very little by way - 1296 -

'lhursday, 20 March , 1980 of action on the part of the Minister . I' m just wondering for what purpose representations are ma de, if in fact little is to be ever done pertaining to those repre sentations ? And I gather this is not the only exampl e. By the Minister 's silence, I interpret that as agreement , Mr. Chairma n. MR . ORCHAR D: Mr. Chairman , I'd like to correct another false imp ression that the Honourable Leader of the Opposition has put on the record tonight regard­ ing northern Manitoba and roads in that portion of the provinc e.

If he will refer to Page 22 of the new program , he will find provincial road 391 , 29 .4 mil es , bituminous levelling ; provincial road 391, 55. 2 mi les, bituminous levelling and shoulder improvem ents ; provincial road 391 , 23.5 mil es , grade widenin g and stock­ piling of shoulder gravel ; provincial road 391 , 23 mil es, bituminous levelling and shoulder improvem ents ; provincial road 391, 21 miles , bituminous levelling and shoulder improvem ents , provincial road 392 , 20 .5 mil es, bituminous levelling and shoulder improvem ents .

If that is a road program which doe s nothing for northern Manitoba, then I suggest once again , Mr . Chairm an, that the Hono urable Leader of the Opposition is trying to mislead the people in this comm ittee , the press , and the people of Manitoba; because , Mr. Chairman, if I were to do a quick add on that , I think we would find somewhere well over 125 miles of roadwork on provincial road 391 and 392, all of which are in northern Manitoba - and incidental ly, Mr. Chairma n, are the only roads in northern Manitoba . MR . PAWLEY: Mr.

Chairman , maybe the Minister could advise us whether these roads are be ing done under the Northlands Agreeme nt? MR . ORCHARD: If the Honourable Leader of the Opposition will just wait a moment or two , we will provide that answer for him . MR . PAWL EY: Possibly, I notice that the Member for Gladstone and the Member for Rock Lake were so well-advised as to the road program '6 9 to '77, maybe they would have sufficient informa tion to permit us to compare the road program du ring those years in nort hern Manitoba with the Minister 's program this evening for 1980-81 .

I' m sure they 've done an equal amount of homew ork . Possibly the Minister already has rece ived the material from the Memb ers for Gladstone and Rock Lake. MR . ORCHA RD: Just carry on , Mr. Chairman . MR . PAWLEY: All we need is informa tion, Mr. Chairm an. It 's strange , there was so much informa tion, it was just bubbling out of everybody 's ears a few moments ago and I' m just amazed , I don 't see ready volunteers here from the Member for Rock Lake or the Member for Gladstone .

I thought they would have done their research in this vital and important area . --(I nterj ection)-- Well, I' m a bit shocked now that we don 't see that informa tion , Mr. Chairm an . I wond er , also, when the Minister is checking, if he could advise us whether that great patriot he made reference to, and great de fender of wester n Canada , Mr. Mazankowski , whether he was responsible for the Northlands Agreem ent , or do we have to credit that terrible opponent of the western Canadian society, Mr . Trude au , with that Northlands Agreem ent . MR. ORCHA RD: Mr .

Chairman , the Honourable Leader of the Opp osition was partly right. 'lhat terrible proponent of western Canada, Mr. Trudea u. And when we 'r e talking of accomplishments of the Honourable Don Mazankowski as federal Minister of Transpor tation , I believe he was the first Ministe r , ever , to bring an icebreaker into the Port of Churchill, much to the betterment of that comm unity and the grain shipment in that commun ity. MR . PAWLEY: A point of order , Mr . Chairman . I would hope that you would recognize that we are trying to deal with the road program and not ice breake rs in the Port of Churchill. MR .

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Minnedosa on a point of order . - 1297 -

Thursday , 20 March , 1980 MR . DAVID BLAKE: On the same point of orde r, Mr. Chairma n, I should think that the members opposite would be happy to see that activity happen. It would en courage the further building of the road to that port to encourage truck traffic as well as rail traffic up there . MR. PAWLEY: I' m just wondering , does the Minister not have that informa­ tion? The answers to the questions I posed a few moments ago? MR . ORCHARD: Just making sure that we give you the right answer . MR .

CHAIRM AN: In the mea ntime , I' ll call on the Member for Burrows, if the Leader of the Official Opposition is • MR. HA NUSCHAK : Ye s, Mr. Chairman , further to a question which I posed to the Minister • • • MR . ORCHA RD: Mr. Chairman , the road proj ects that I mentioned to the Honourable Leader of the Opposition were all provincial fund ing . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Burrows has the floor , unless he wants to give to the Leader of the Official Opposition. MR .

PAWLEY: I wonder if the Minister can indicate the total amount of fundin g that would be involved in that program for Northern Manitoba this year for expenditu re . MR . ORCHAR D: I haven 't got the exact total here , but in rough figures about four and one- half million dollars. MR . PAWLEY: And your total road program is front of me. How much is it? --(I nt erj ections )-­ the genero sity of the Minister , four and one-half gram. Then the Minist er . • • MR . ORCHARD : On one road . - I'm sorry I don't have it in Mr. Chairma n, then we now see mil lion out of his total pro- MR .

PAWLE Y: Then the Minister was • • Well, my question pertained to the roads that you had listed earlier . Are you telling me now that you have only given me the cost for the one road? MR . ORCHA RD: Mr . Chairman , those expenditu res , except for one 20-1/2 mile chunk, were all on Provincial Road No. 391 , which is one road. MR . PAWLEY: Maintenance or new construction? MR . ORCHA RD: That is capital constru ction . MR. CHERNIACK: What is capital construction? MR .

PAWLEY : So the Minister was really seriously trying to let on to us that there was great activity in Northern Manitoba, four and one-half mi llion dollars out of his total budget . I am not going to prolong that , but I think that the figures themselves belie the story , Mr. Chairman . MR . CHAIRM AN: The Member for Burrows - or did he want the floor yet? MR . HANUSCHAK: Mr .

Chairman , I had asked the Honourable Minister an expla­ nation with respect to the first project previously programmed that he had ind i­ cated to the Comm ittee , that of the 2.2 miles for acquisition of right-of-way for which he had rece ived funds in the previous year , he had only acquired about 11 perc ent of that, so leaving about 89 percent still to be acquired . Now it is my intenti on, Mr . Chairman, in order to enable the Com mittee to sort of get a handle on things , to get a more accurate figure on , oh, about 170 proj ects out of 218 - 1298 -

Thursday , 20 March, 1980 listed therein , you know, which are also described in this vague sort of fashion. I am going on to the second one , Tran s Canada Highway West , 3. 7 miles west of Headingley , or from west of Headingley to east of PTH 26, acquisition of right­ -of-way . I would like to know what portion of that had been acqu ired or is likely to be acquired by the fiscal year ending March 3lst , 1980. MR . CHAIRM AN: Mr . Chairm an, is it the Honourable Member for Burrow's intention to go through project by project for the first 14 pages? MR .

HANUS CHAK : The Honourable Minister presented us with a program listing all the projec ts project by project and I wou ld suspect that every member of the Com mi ttee would want to have accurate informat ion on every proj ect , proj ect by project .

In other word s, I don't think that the Commi ttee would be satisfied with, you know, just sort of a ballpark figure , so if the Minister is list ing these pr ojects project by pro je ct , when he said last year that he wanted funds to acquire 3.7 miles of right-of-way from west of Headingley to east of PTH 26 and 11 .3 miles from east of PR 340 to the east junction of PTH 10 , etc . and etc., continuin g on for about 172 projects , I think that the Com mittee ought to know what portion of that the Minister did in fact do in the fiscal, or will do in the fiscal year , which is to end with this calendar month , and what is remaining to be done.

Because otherwise this highway construction program which the Minister has presented us with becomes completely meaningles s. So ye s, it is my intention to. go through the Minister 's program line by line , even it takes the next two or three mont hs, and I want to get answers from the Minister . So theref ore , my question to the Minister is: Of the 3.7 mil es, which the Minister wanted to acqu ire right-of-way last year and which he shows again in his program for the forthcomi ng fiscal year , how much of it has he acquired ? MR . ORCHA RD: Mr .

Chairm an, that second proj ect is part of th e $4 4 million that is required to complete the 14 pages of proj ects. MR . HANUS CHAK: My question to the Minister is: Did he acquire 3.7 miles of it , 3.6 9, 3.6 8, 3.6 7 or 0 mi les? MR . ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman , that proj ect is part of the $44 million which is uncommitted and not expend ed . MR . HANUSCHAK: Could the Minister indicate to the Commi ttee he has been out shopping for land , he has been acquiring right -of-way in this project and God knows how many others over the rem aining 14 pages, how much of that 3.7 miles did he acquire?

Can he not tell the Comm ittee that? MR. ORCHA RD: The portion of it which makes up the $44 million which is left to expend . MR . HANUSCHAK: Could the Minister tell the Commi ttee whether he has ac­ qu ired a tenth of a mile or a quarter of a mile or a half a mile or whatever? MR . ORCHA RD: Mr. Chairm an , the portion which remains to be acquired is part of the $4 4 million which it would take to complete the proje cts on the first 14 pages of the program . MR . HANUSCHAK: Very well. If the Minister has no knowledge of what hap­ pened with respect to that particular proj ect, let me go on.

So there fore with respect to that one , the Minister doesn 't know, and this doesn 't surprise me , Mr . Chairm an . Let 's move on to the next Trans Canada Highway West , 11 .3 mi l es. Now there is a longer stretch of highway and wel l, last year his pred ecessor had indicated to the Commi ttee that he was going to do more than just acquire right-of-way . He was going to acquire right-of-way , he was going to landscape , service roads, etc . This year the Minister pulled back a bit , all he is going to do is ju st acquire right-of-way on that 11.3 miles from east of PR 34 0 to east of east junction of PTH 10 .

How much of that ll.3 mi les has the Minister acquired ? - 1299 -

Thursday , 20 March, 1980 MR . ORCHA RD: A portion of it which is part of the $44 million which is requ ired to complete the first 14 pages of proj ects. MR . HANUSCHAK: Would the Minister be more precise and specific than that , "a portion" '? Did the Minister acqu ire a tenth , a quart er , a ha l f-a-mi le'? Does the Minister not know'? Because surely, you know, Mr . Chairman , the Minister , looking at Item 6.(

a) in our Estima te s, he had rounded off a figure to the nearest $100 . Now surely he didn 't guess at that figure , at least I would hope that he hadn 't guessed at that figure, that he didn 't pull that figure out of a hat, th at , you know, he must have arrived at that figure on some basis. He says, for the regular program he needs $60, 415 , 600 , so surely the Minister must know what his departm ent had done up to the tim e when he prepared his Estim ates .

He must have known what he expects his de partment to be able to do up until the end of the fiscal year and then on that basis come up with this figure to the nearest $100 .00. You know, it is not just a ballpark figure to the nearest $5 milli on or $10 mi llion, but , you know, he comes up with a very precise figure to the nearest $100, and having come up with that figure to the nearest $100, I am asking the Minister a very simple question.

Now surely he kno ws , because after all , you know , I studied law, a long time ago, about the time when this Minister was - well , I don't think he was even enrolled in school at that time , that 's how long ago it was. But I would suspect that the acquisition of right-of-way process, it involves the whole land transfer operation, going through the Land Ti tles Office and so forth , so the Minister ought to know whether he has acquired 2 miles or 3 mi les or 4 or 5 or 6 or whatever of the 11 .3 miles that I am talking about.

And surely the Minister can answer this question, because he came up with a figure in his Estim ates . MR . ORCHA RD: Well , Mr. Chairm an , the portion of that project which has yet to be expended is part of the $4 4 milli on, which total the first 14 pages of the commi tm ent . MR . HANUSCHAK: So it is part of the $44 mi llion which totals the first 14 pages of this commitment . Well, perhaps the Ministe r may be bette r acquainted with what has happened west of Brand on, and I will ask him this.

Of the 15. 3 mil es, which his predecessor said that he wanted to acqu ire the right-of-way to on Trans Canada Highway West west of the junction of PTH lA, west of Brandon to PT H 121 , what portion of that 15 . 3 miles has the Minister acqu ired the right-of-way to'? And then , of course , well, it is just simple arithmetic to determine what portion is still rem aining, if he has not acquired all of it. MR . ORCHA RD: That project is not part of the road program , Mr. Chairm an . MR . HANUSCH AK : Well, Mr.

Chairma n, I am read ing from th e Tory Blue Book under the column headed Highway , PTH West , under the column headed Mileage , 15 . 3 und er the column headed Location , west junctio n PTH lA (west of Brandon), PTH 21, Nature of Work , Acqu isition of Right-of-Way, and the cover , I will just double check again , ye s, Highway Construction Program 1980-81. So it is listed in his book. MR . ORCHA RD: Mr . Chairman , in the honourable member 's first question he indicated west juncti on PTH lA, west of Brandon to PTH 121 ; we do no t have a PTH 121 . MR . HANUSCHAK: I am sorry . Mr .

Chairman , I cannot recall saying 121 ; if in error I did , I correct myse lf . I meant PTH 21 , which is listed both on his prede cessor's program for 1979-1980 and listed again in his Tory Blue Book , which we have be fore us. Would the Minister indicate to us what portion of the 15 .3 mi les of right-of-way has he acquired during the fiscal year 1979-80 , which was on his pred ecessor 's program , and , you know, what is remaining to be acquired? MR . ORCHA RD: Mr. Chairman , I am pleased to tell the Member for Burrows that we have acquired sufficient of that right-of-way to undertake the - 1300 -

Thursday , 20 March, 1980 Trans -Canada West 8. 1 mil es, west junction PTH lA at Kemnay west of Alexander , grade and gravel add itional lanes. MR . HA NUSCHAK : He has acquired sufficient - I am sorry , I missed the rest of that. Would the Minister be good enough to repeat that. MR . ORCHARD: 8. 1 mi les. MR . HANUSCHAK : He has acquired 8.1 miles of the 15 .3 mil es. Very well. So we are lookin g at about 50 percent . No , I will be kind to the Minister , it is a bit better than 50 percent , because 50 percent of 15 .3 is only 7. 65 mile s. So he did better than that . Very well. Could we then move on, Mr.

Chairman . Mr . projects which the Minister has included in which is about to end . I note that the next location , railway crossing west of Portage Portage By-pass, acquisition of right-of-way. Chairm an , I must go through the 172 the Estimates for the fiscal year projec t is 1.4 mi les on Highway lA, la Pra irie, east of West Terminal Has the Minister acquired it? MR . ORCHA RD: What is left to be acquired is a portion of the $4 4 million which entirely to be spent would complete the projects on the first 14 pages . MR .

HANUSCH AK: Could the Minister indicate to the Com mittee what portion of the 1.4 mi les of this particular project remains to be acquired? MR. ORCHA RD: Only that, Mr. Chairm an, which forms part of the $4 4 million ne cessary to complete the first 14 pages . • • MR . HANUSCH AK : Would the Minister indicate to the Com mittee what part of the 1. 4 miles is that part of the $44 mi llion that he refers to. MR . ORCHA RD: Only that which my de partment has calculated into the $4 4 mi llion, Mr. Chairman . MR .

HANUSCHAK: Would the Minister indicate what part of the 1.4 miles it is that his Department has calculated into this Item. MR . ORCHA RD: Onl y that which it hasn 't acquired . MR . HANUS CHAK: Would the Minister then indicate what

part it is that his Department has not acquired . MR . ORCHA RD: That which forms up the am ount of the appropr iation which figures into the $4 4 million. MR . HANUS CHAK: Well, Mr . Chairman , it is becoming quite obvious I think that - you know, there aren 't too many members of the Com mittee left , Mr. Chair­ man , as you will note , three or four , you know, who are really interested in hear­ ing what this Minister had done in his Department during the past year , and really I don't know whether I want to cont inue spending my time and that of my col­ league s for the benefit of my colleagues.

I only went through four items , there is still 168 rem aining, 168 rem aining, and this is the type of answer that we are getting from this Minister . So I really don 't know whether I should con­ tinue , because we are not getting any information from this Minister . Well , you know, I am asking the Minister very simp le quest ions, very simple precise concrete questions , I am asking him, look, you asked for approval to acquire "X" miles of right-of-way , and of that "X" miles of right-of-way , how much have you acquired ; all of it , you know, a portion of it, what portion of it?

The Minister refuses to te ll us . Well, if the Minister refuses to tell us, I think we will have to find anothe r way of dealing with his Estima tes at a later point in time . MR . CHAIRM AN: The Member for St . Johns. - 13 01 -

Thur sday , 20 March , 1980 MR . CHERNIACK : Mr. Chairm an , I can 't help but feel that that information that has been asked for by the Member for Burrows is available. I also can 't help but feel that it is probably not present in this room , and I would have thought that the Minister would have been well advised to say, well, l will get the infor­ mati on . It must be available . Surely you don 't make up a list without knowing what you are at, you don 't just make it up, you got to have something about it , when they speak of mileages and percentage of a mile , then surely the information is available .

I think that what would be of concern is to see whether or not there are repetitions year by year of projectio ns of doing work , an acquisition of land and no real intention to do so, and I think from that standpoint it is legi­ timate to ask a Minister to be more precise, and the fact is he didn •t answer any of the questions about those four route s.

Now I would have accepted had he said, I don't have the informa tion with me , but it is readily available , because the Member for Burrows is ri ght , there has got to be a record somewhere of what has been acquired and theref ore as he says by simple arithmetic one knows what has not yet been acqu ired . So either the Min­ ister refuses to give the information or the Minister , not having it here , is trying to slough it over and I think both ways are wron g .

Having made that point and I think there is validity to that, we will hear from him the extent to which he is prepared to deny that the information is available somew here . I don 't believe he will - a quest ion I have been wanting to ask relates to the provincial money and the federal money . And I heard the ministe r say that there was a ce r­ tain project , I think he said 391, I am not sure , where he was asked is any part of that Northlands Agreem ent , and he says, it is all provincial money . Could he indicate to us which projects are Northlands Agreement money . MR . ORCHA RD: Mr.

Chairm an , we have some carryover program , which is part of the Northlands Agreem ent . MR . CHERNI ACK: Where is that shown? MR. ORCHA RD: On page ll, Mr . Chairman , the first project on 391 , 21 mil es . The next one is 391, 22.7 mil es , PR 610, Wabowden to the junct ion of the South Soab Lake Mine . And , Mr. Chairm an , we have $135 , 000 left to comple te , and I don •t see it in the carryover program. --(I nt erjecti on)-- Mr. Chairma n, do I hear some chirping in the crowd there? MR . CHAIRM AN: The Minister has got the floor. MR. ORCHA RD: Mr. Chairman , for the Honourable Member for St .

Johns , is PR 391, which is from the Thompson Airport to the Pipe Lake Road Mine , there 's $135 , 000 of a previously tendered project yet to be paid out on that - of western North lands . MR . CHERNI ACK : The Minister has indicated this $135 ,0 00 ; he also indicated 22.7 miles at PR 61 0 and 21 miles at the vicinity of Watsko and Hughes Lake . How much is there set aside for each of those? MR . ORCHA RD: $1 .7 million for the Watsko , and $1 ,1 90,0 00 for the other one . MR . CHERNI ACK : That would total about $2 .3 million - no , $2 .9 milli on , plus , that 's about $3 mi llion.

Any more money for Northlands ? MR . ORCHA RD : Not on 391, Mr . Chairma n. That 's the extent of 391. MR. CHERNIACK : Mr . Chairman , I was asking for all the Northlands money . MR . ORCHA RD: Is 39 2 Northlands , or is that • • • MR. CHERNIACK : 392 is not here , not on th is page either . - 13 02 -

Thursday , 20 March, 1980 MR . ORCHA RD: No , the 392 that we 'r e doing in this year 's program , in the new program , is no t Northlands . None of this year 's program on 391 or 392 is Northlands program . It 's 100 percent provincial . MR . CHERNI ACK : Mr . Chairm an, I was asking what more is there than the $3 milli on referred to that 's Northlands money . MR . ORCHA RD: Well, there 's a project of about , we ll, it 's $2 .5 million on the Cross Lake Road , which is North lands - western North lands.

It does not show up in this road program because it was part of Appro priation 8, which is not listed on the road program , community road. MR . CHERNIA CK: Appro priation 8 in the current estimat es. MR . ORCHARD: No , no , it was funded last year , and we only had carryover of MR . CHERNIACK : Mr . Chairm an , that 2.5 - is that in this year 's Estimates or last year 's estimat es? MR . ORCHA RD: It 's in this year . It 's under Approp riation 8. MR . CHERNI ACK: You don •t mean Appro priation , you mean Paragraph 8, or Resolution. MR . ORCHARD: Well, Resolution 87 . MR . CHERNIACK : All right.

I was trying to get at, what was the amount in the appropriation we are dealing with now, which I believe is 6, more than the $3 mi llion re ferred to by the Minister . MR. ORCHARD: Just hold it a min ute . I' ve got to do some calculating for the honourable membe rs. MR . CHERNI ACK : Mr . Chairman , looking at this Approp riation 6, which is the one we 're dealing with , I see that Item (

c) give s $4 .5 million for the Northlands Agreem en t . Is the $3 mi llion identif ied part of that $4 .5 mi llion, or is that in the $60 milli on und er (a )? MR . ORCHARD: It is part of (c ). MR . CHERNIACK : This $3 mi llion we 'v e talked about is part of (c ), part of $4 .5 mi llion. Right? MR . ORCHA RD: Ye s. MR . CHERNIACK : Where is the other $1 .5 mi llion? MR . ORCHA RD : It involves , I'v e given you 391, Wekusko to Hughes Lake; I' ve given you 391 , Wabowden to South Soab Lake Mine; and I' ve given you the Thompson airport to Pipe Lake at 135 ,0 00 .00.

As we ll, we have the Thomp son-Split Lake Road which has $380 ,0 00 to complete MR . CHERNIACK : Where 's that? Is that on this list we 'r e looking at? Mr. Chairm an, I' m sorry , I must leave . I don 't have the time to wait for the Minister to do his homew ork . I presume he 'l l get the informatio n. MR . ORCHA RD: And in 327 , on Page 9, 327 , 28 mil es, PTH 6, Easterville Road Conne ction, we have $355 ,0 0o .oo. Go to Page 9, Provincial Road 327 - we have $355 ,0 00 .00. --(I nt erjection )-- Right. MR . HA NUSCHAK : I'm sorry , $355 ,0 00 for what? - 1303 -

Thursday , 20 March, 1980 MR . ORCHA RD: Completion of that proj ect . MR . HANUSCHAK : That 's for the forthcoming fiscal year . MR . ORCHA RD: Ye s. MR . HANUSCHAK: Well, Mr. Chairman , it 's very interesting that the Minister has that information • MR . DEPUT Y CHAIRMAN: Just a minute . Ord er ple ase . Have you completed your answer? MR . ORCHARD: Well, let him bab ble . MR . DEPUT Y CHAIRM AN: Okay . The Member for Burrows . MR. HA NUSCHAK : No , no , I do not wish to interrupt the Minister . MR .

ORCHA RD: And then on Page 11, 391 , 34 mil es, PTH 10 , vicinity of Reed Lake , bituminous pavement and stabilized shoulders - we have $2.456 mi llion. Now, those projects should total up to $6 ,2 16 ,o oo.oo. We have $4 ,4 96,0 00 of that in western Northlands , which we 'r e going to recover back from Northern Affair s.

Northern Affai rs, has, as you are well aware , the hold-back , the enabling vote, the 15 percent hold-back , so that means the total western Northlands contribution to those $6 ,2 16 ,0 00 worth of projects is going to be $5 ,289 ,6 00 ; and the province of Manitoba , to complete those projects that we 'v e listed for you , are going to have to put in approxim ately , we ll, somewhat less than a million dollars to com­ plete those projec ts started under Western Northlands . MR . HANUS CHAK : Yes, Mr. Chairm an .

It 's very interest ing that the Minister was able to come up with reasonably precise figures on a couple of projec ts . MR . DEPUT Y CHAIRM AN: The Member for Lac du Bonnet on a point of orde r. MR. USKIW: Mr . Chairm an , the Member for Burrows is allowed a second time at this one . I have been on the list for a long time , and I don 't know when I' m to be called • MR . DEPU TY CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry , the Chairman , whom I replaced , did not indicate to me there was anyone on the roster , so perhaps the Member for Burrows would wish to yield to the Member for Lac du Bonnet . MR .

HANUSCHAK : Ye s, I'd be happy to. MR . DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: All right . The Member for Lac du Bonnet . I' m sorry . MR . USKIW: Mr. Chairm an , I would like to ask the Minister , since he did n' t indicate -- ( Inte rj ection)- - since we didn 't get an indication from the department or the Minister on the br idge ques tion at Selkirk over the Red River , I'm wond er­ ing whether it was my omi ssion in not pursuing it sufficien tly , and whether the Minist er would answer if that is possibly listed under the maintenance program. And I' m ta lk ing abou t Highway 204 , the approach to the bridge .

The reason I raise it again, Mr. Chairma n, is that the former Minister had a series of meeti ngs with di fferent delegations from that area last year , and gave a commi tment that they would take a good look at whether or not there couldn 't be some sort of structure , or a raising of that road, carried out in a reasonably short period of time in order to solve the flood situation. So perhaps, if it 's not in new construction, perhaps it's under maintenanc e. It could be in either , I suppose . I would like to know just what the position of the Minister is on that . MR . ORCHA RD: Mr.

Chairm an , I' m advised that particular project , we are working in conjunction with water resource s, as we have to do on those kind of projec ts. It won't be a ma intenance program , that will be a sufficiently large - 13 04 -

Thursday , 20 March, 1980 projec t to be under construction program , and it's my understanding we just don't have the design and all the information and co-ordination done with Water Re­ source s to have that project undertaken this year . MR . USKIW : Is the Minister then indicating that the de partment is proceed­ ing with the des ign works for some kind of a structure as an approach to the Selkirk br idge from the east side of the Red River , and that that has no bearing on the quest ion of another bridge location for connectin g up the east-west highway system north of Lockport? MR . ORCHAR D: Ye s.

The Department - we 'r e not in a design stage . We haven 't got a design for that road because we haven 't got our complete information package put together with Water Re sources . MR . USKIW : Mr . Chairman , what I' m trying to determine though , is, well let me put it this way . The Minister says they have not completed their design work . By stating that , he is implying that a decision has been made , but it 's merely a technical problem that we are waiting to overcome . Is that correc t? MR . ORCHARD: I would suppose you could call it a technical problem.

What we have to do is, No. 1, get our complete data ba se , shall we call it, from Water Resources . Us ing that inform ation, we can proceed to a des ign which we can put a cons truction estimate upon . And , having a construction estimate on the number of dollars that are involved often dete rmines whether a project indeed can proceed this year , next year , or ••• MR . USKIW : Mr .

Chairman , what I'm really trying to get from the Minister is whether or not he is com mitted to a structure at that point as the answer to dealing with the flood problems , and that merely whether it's a matter of doing som e further en gineerin g studies and technical work to deter mine just when and how much it 's going to co st , or is the question still a question mark dependent on those studies? It could go either way , and I would like to know which way the Minister is looking at it. MR . ORCHARD: I guess I'm going to be a Liberal and I' m going to go down the middle of the road .

We have to find out what that

part icular option will cost us and comp are it to the , as we were talking about yesterday , the choosing of an appropriate new crossing location to service the whole area. And I can't tell you ton ight that we 'r e going to proceed with the option you 'r e pursuing tonight , as I couldn 't tell you yesterday that we were going to proceed at a bridge location at mi le 21 or whatever on the Red River . We haven 't got that information put to­ gether , and it 's in the study stage . MR . USKIW : Mr . Chairman , I would then like to pursue it further .

Is the Minister telling the com mittee that the possibility exists that there may be two projec ts, (1) in the approach to the existing bridge , and (2) another bridge loca­ tion for the connect ion of highways as between the east of the river and west of the river ; or is he talking about choosing as between two alternatives, either a new br idge connectin g at the highways and no work to be done on the existing approach to the existing bridge? MR . ORCHARD: Mr .

Chairman , I suppose what I'm telling the Member for Lac du Bonnet is that we don 't know whether to proceed with one bridge eliminat ing the one he 's discuss ing tonight , or to put in a second structure elsewhere plus the one he's talking about tonight , until we get our costs on what the floodproofing of the 204 is, plus the cost of a new crossing at some different location is. And until we have those two cost estimates and studies compl ete , I' m afraid it would be foolhardy to make any decision, or in fact , any commi tment to him tonight as to which way we are going to go. MR . USKIW : Mr.

Chairman , I'm not suggesting that the Minister should make a decision in advance of having all the informat ion. I merely wanted to und er­ stand the Minister 's position . If I'm wrong , he may correct me . My understa ndin g - 1305 -

Thur sday , 20 March , 1980 is that no decision has yet been ma de, that it is st ill a matter of review on the part of the departm ent . I suppose that is the safest assumption on my part . MR . ORCHA RD: That would be the safest assum ption , ye s. MR. USKIW : Mr . Chairm an , I would like to pursue one other construction project that 's been under way for some period of time . And perhaps the Deputy Minister would be in a position to advise as to (

a) why it is taking so long to compl ete , and (

b) why there doesn 't appear to be a subsequent proje ct , whether it 's right-of-way or whatever , from that point on . I'm talking about Highway No . 11, which has been under construction now for , I believe , three years. And some­ how, it seems to me it ca n't be completed for one reason or another . It should have been complete d last year . On No . 11, off No. 44 - 44 to 214, Mr. Chairma n, to be pre cise. MR . ORCHARD : Well it's my understa ndin g that work comme nced last fall. MR . USKIW: Mr. Chairma n, the construction has been under way there for at least two years , if not mo re .

There was a winter construction project , then there was an all-summer construction activity there last year , and it was the intention to complete the project up to 214 last year . My question is, what 's holding up the proj ec t? (

b) Why is the Minister not indicat ing a further extension to com ­ plete that project right into the town of Lac du Bonnet , because I do notice in his current estimate s, he has so me plans north of Lac du Bonnet to Great Falls? It seems to me that they 'r e going to be miss ing out that

section from 214 to Lac du Bonnet for one reason or another , and I would like to know why . MR . ORCHA RD: Mr. Chairman , the paving project was started on the south end last fall with some base laying, and with any kind of good fortune that contracto r should finish his contract this summ er . MR. USKIW: Mr . Chairman , so is the Minister indicating that it is really beyond the de partme nt 's control as to when that proj ec t is going to be compl eted , that it is really in the hands of the contractor? MR . ORCHA RD: Mr .

Chairm an, I suppose you could say it is beyond the de ­ partment 's control as to when a contractor completes a given job , but af ter X number of days that are specified in the contract , should that work not be com­ pleted , the contractor is subjec t to penalty paym ents , but in terms of forcing a contractor to complete a job , I suppose you could say we don 't have the right to do it. We can charge him pen alty . MR. USKIW : Well in any event , Mr.

Chairman , it would appear to me that the Minister is suggesting that project will be completed as soon as the contractor finishes his work , that the department really is not involved beyond that any mo re . MR . ORCHA RD: Right. We 'v e let the contract , the contractor started work and , as I say, he should finish that stretch this summ er . He got a start on it last fall. MR . USKIW: The next question I put to the Minister , Mr .

Chairm an , has to do with - if he looks on page 2 on his carry-over program , he has here an appro­ priation of 8.7 mil es, that 's acquisition of right-of-way from PR 313 to McArthur Falls, but what is taking place with respect to 214 to 313? That

section in the middle is not found anywhere , and I'm just wondering why the department is not sequentially completin g that highway from one end all the way through to the other as opposed to leaving a

section in the middle or before the town of Lac du Bonnet and then hopping over to the other side of Lac du Bonnet and proceed ing north . MR . ORCHA RD: I don 't have the answer to why that gap is in there , but if the member would prefer we can see if we can det ermine what the reasons are. - 13 06 -

Thursday , 20 March, 1980 MR. USKIW: Mr . Chairman , might I suggest to the Minister that that is a very short

section mileage- wise , or kilometer- wise, and that it would seem logical if the department is going to proceed north of Lac du Bonnet , that it should indeed complete the south end . It would seem rather silly to have a good road a portion of the way and then get back onto the old pavem ent , and then another stretch of good paveme nt . It doesn 't add up at all, Mr . Chairm an. There must be som e oversight somewhere or some technical problem . It 's one or the other . MR . ORCHA RD: Mr. Chairm an, I' m only speculating here , but this sometimes happens in terms of acquisition of land , and a problem in dete rmining the route of a road as it goes through or by a town , and that particular

section of road does involve the stretch by and around or through Lac du Bonnet , I'm not too sure --(I nterj ection )- - around Lac du Bonne t, and that may be part of the problem , I' m no t certain. MR . USKIW: Mr . Chairman , for the benefit of the Minister , the area in ques tion is open farml and . It is not an area that is urban ized , and there fore it would seem to me that if we 'r e acquiring right-of-way north of the town , that som ewhere there should have been acquisition of right-of-way south of the town , unless the Minister can tell me that it has already been acquired .

You know, it's just possible that it has been acqu ired . MR . ORCHARD: It is possible but I just don't have that informatio n. MR . USKIW: All right , would the Minster take that as notice and bring the informa tion back whenever he has an opportunity? MR . ORCHA RD: Ye s, I will. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Burrows. MR . HANUSCH AK: Mr.

Chairm an, you may recall that earlier I hoped that the commi ttee would receive some fairly precise and accurate information as to the extent to which the projects previously programmed were complete d in the fiscal year abou t to end in a week 's time , and how much the Minister wants for the forthcoming fiscal year . And the four examples which I had given at that time re ferred to acquisition of right-of-way. Now it may be, Mr.

Chairman , that it might be somewhat diff icult for the Ministe r to check with the Land Title s Office and the legal departm ent and so forth to find out just exactly how much land was acqu ired and is in fact now owned by Her Majesty in the right of the province of Manitoba . So , I would like to make reference to a couple of other proj ects where acquisi­ tion of land doesn 't ente r into the picture at all. It 's paveme nt . I' m looking - well the first one catches my eye , again it's on the Highway No . ll, 11 .5 mi les north junction of PTH 44 to Provincial Road 214 base and bituminous pavement .

Tha t appeared in last year 's Highways program and it again appears in this year 's, so I take it that it 's not completed . Now can the Minister indicate to us in whichever way he finds it easier to do his ari thme tic, in the imperial or the metric system , what portion of this stretch of road still remains to be paved? MR . ORCHA RD: Mr. Chairman, MR . HANUSCHAK: Rather than giving the answer as he did , "Well , the propor­ tionate fraction of the $4 4 million ," which was the answer he gave. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister has the floor. MR . ORCHA RD: Mr.

Chairm an , as all things which are empty , certain things which are empty , words flow through unihibited , and obviously that 's the case with the Member for Burrows , because we just finished discussing that road with the Member for Lac du Bonnet . And the indication at that time , not two minutes ago , Mr. Chairm an , was that there was no paving done on it. The contract was only - 1307 -

Thursday , 20 March, 1980 begun las t fall and it is --( Inter je ction )-- As I mentio ned retention capability inbetwee n. antic ipated to be finished be fore , when things are empty , this there year . is no MR . HANUSCHAK: I am pleased to know that . So obviously there mus t be many projects listed here which you will recall, Mr. Chairm an, the Minister had ind i­ cated to us bef ore the dinner ho ur, that the first 14 pages are merely for com­ parison purposes, to indicate to the committee what was done the previous year as compared to what the Minister hopes to do in the forthcoming fiscal year .

But now we 'v e discovered that some of these proj ects weren 't done at all. Well then, that being the case , I will cont inue . And again I' m not going to re fer to the acquisi­ tion of right-of-way proj ects , because apparently the Minister is having some difficulty to determi ne just exactly how much property he had acquired , even with the assistance of the Memb er for Minnedosa and Portage la Prairie that he has over here , but even they can 't help him. So then I will go to Highway No . 12.

Could the Minister indicate to the committee , and I underline to the comm ittee; there are members in the com mitt ee , the opposition, the government side , and I'm sure that both sides of the commi ttee would be very an xious to have this inf onnation and they would want to know.

They would want to know and , in particular , the Honourable Member for Minnedosa would want to know how much of the 8.8 miles of Highway No . 12, nort h of First Avenue North , Steinbach , to north of Seine River diversion has been paved , because the Honourable Member for Minnedosa may want to go down to the United States in that direction to promo te tourist conventions in Minnes ota . Mr. Chairm an , MR . ORCHA RD: The portion that is yet to be completed is part of the $44 ,0 00 ,0 00 which makes up the 14 pages of projects we have here . MR . HANUSCA K: It 's interestin g , Mr .

Chairm an, that the Minister is back to giving his pat answer , that it 's part of the $44 mi llion. On certain projects he was able to give the committee very precise answers , right down to the $100 .00. On this one and many other s, he said it 's part of the $44 mill ion. Now who the hell is he trying to fool? MR . CHAIRMAN: Ord er , order . The Honourable Minister . MR . ORCHA RD: Mr. Chairm an, the Honourable Memb er for Burrows is indicat- ing that I' m down to giving ••• The Member for Burrows , I'l l drop the honour­ able , because he's demonstrating that he doesn 't dese rve that title .

The Member for Burrows has indicated that I am back to giving my pat answer ; I might indicate that the Member for Burrows is back down to asking his pat question. MR . HANUSCHAK: Ye s, Mr. Chairman , I'm going to contin ue asking my pat ques tion, and I' m going to insist on answers to them . And Mr. Chainnan. MR . CHAIRM AN : Order , order . Whoever gets the Chairman 's eye is called that way . The Memb er for Burrows . MR . HANUSCHAK : Ye s, Mr. Chairman , I have asked one of 172 of my pat ques­ tions . I have asked five of them up to this point in time .

The re is still 167 remain ing , and I intend to ask the remaining 167 questions . And , Mr. Chairm an , I say to you that the people of Manitoba are entitled to an answer from this Min­ ister to questions which I asked , which were unanswered , and the 167 which ought to be asked . Now the Minister shakes his head , that the people of Manitoba are not entitled to answers to them . Very well , I want the people of Manitoba to know that. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for St . Vital . MR . D. JAMES WALDING (S t. Vital): Mr.

Chairm an, in order to give my col­ league the opportunity to select the next question he wishes to ask , I want to follow-up on som e ques tions that were being asked a few minutes ago. • • - 13 08 -

Thursday , 20 March, 1980 MR . CHAIRMAN: Ord er , order . The Member for St . Vital has the floor. MR . WALDING : • having to do with the Northlands Agreemen t. The Min- ister had given us a number of projects from the list , and I believe one that was not on the list, which added up according to my arithme tic to some 5. 82 million dollars. He rattled off rather quickly a number of other figures after that that I didn 't get the opportunity to not e. I wonder if he can now give me an explana­ tion of whether my $5 .82 mi llion is correct , and how that tallies with the Item (

c) The Northlands Agreement of some $4 .5 million. MR . ORCHARD: Mr . Chairman , it isn' t going to tally very well, because the $4 .96 million that we have in recovery of Northlands Agreement is 85 percent , the 15 percent enabling vote is not included in there . That will bring the project costs really up to 5. 289 .6, but if we complete all of the projects that I outlined to the members this evening , it is expected that they will cost $6 .216 mi llion .

Now, that means that we are only going to recover 5. 289 from Northern Affairs under The Northlands Agreement and the province essentially will pick up the alm ost $1 milli on that is expected to be necessary to spend to complete the pro­ jec ts which are ongoing . MR . WALDING : I am still not clear . The Minister lost me when he got to the 15 percent enabling vote. Do I understand that that is addit ional money that is to be spent under this appropriation? MR . ORCHARD: Mr . Chairman , with the Northlands Agreem ent , Northern Affairs presents us with proj ects .

They also present us with the fund ing to carry out that project , but they hold back 15 percent until completion of the project . So that is why in my 6. (

c) we have $4 ,4 96, 000, which is 85 percent of the fund ing that is available , because 15 percent of that has been held back by Northern Affairs, and will be paid upon complet ion of the proj ects . But, that is only two points out three , the third point being that , with the 15 percent hold-back , we have $5 .289 mill ion available under Western Northlands for provincial trunk high­ ways and related project s. But to comp lete the proj ects that we have ongoing , it is estimated - and once again an estimate can vary - but it is estimated that we are going to have spend $6 .216 mi llion.

So a further portion is going to have to be funded 100 percent by the province , not on the 60/40 ratio that the Western North lands Agreem ent has for us , because we have expended all of the Western Northlands Agreem ent . We don •t have sufficient Western Northlands Agreement to adeq uately fund the projected $6 .2 mi llion in carryover projec ts. MR . WALDING : Mr. Chairm an, the Minister has brought in two new figures now, a 5.2 and a 6. some thing million dollars. MR . ORCHA RD: Oh , no, they are not ne w. MR . WALDING : which further confuse me .

Do I understand from him that the $4 . 4 mill ion is an amount that Northern Affairs is going to pay to his Department this year , and that there will be a further 15 percent paid at some time in the future for projects that total 5. 82, which won' t necessarily be built in this year. MR . ORCHARD: No , it is anticipated that these proj ects will be finished this year , and when we finish them we will get the 15 percent this year . MR . WALDI NG: Let me follow that through . The five projects that the Minister listed to us came to, in my arithm etic , $5 .82 milli on. MR . ORCHA RD: I am sorry . MR .

WALD ING : The five projects that the Minister listed for me came to $5 .82 milli on, if my arithmetic is correc t. - 1309 -

Thursday , 20 March, 1980 MR . ORCHA RD: Well , yoo. mus t have missed about a $380 ,0 00 project , because the total that is anticipated these projects will cost is $6 .216 million . MR . WALDING : Can the Minister confirm that he gave us five projec ts, four of them on page 11 and one of them on page 9? MR . ORCHA RD: And there was a $135 ,0 00 project which wasn 't listed . MR. WALDING : That is the fourth one on page 11? MR . ORCHA RD: The Thompson to Split Lake Road at $380 ,0 00 does not appear because it is not a numbered road .

It doesn 't appear in the carryover program because that particular one is not a numbered road , and that is $380 ,0 00 - that will be the sixth proje ct . MR . WALDING: That is where the arithmetic is, so we are then to $6 .2 milli on in six projects that the Minister expects to have completed in the coming year , and 85 percent of that , I assume , comes to $4 .4 96 mi llion , is that correct? MR. ORCHA RD: No. We have a total of $5 ,2 89,0 00 in Western Northlands Agreem ent ; they have , yoo. see in my Estimate Book, 85 percent of that , okay , for $4 ,4 96,o oo.oo.

We are going to have to fund the other , roughly a million dollars, out of regular program , because we don 't have sufficient Western Northlands Agree­ ments to complete those proj ects . We are going to be over-expended . MR . WALDING: A question that arises from that , Mr. Chairman , is why did the Minister list that mill ion dollars as a Northlands expe nditu re? MR . ORCHAR D: Well, when you put in roads and proj ects , you anticipate given expen ditures and some times expenditures are more than necessary , and what we could do is save $1 mi llion and just chop off the project half-done .

But we complete the project because a lot of these are on 391 , and as I have already indicated in this year 's program , we have got 172 miles of work that is 100 per­ cent provincial dollars , so it is really quite irrelevant whether we spend anoth er mi llion on carryover from Manitoba-Northlands Agreem ent . The work has to be done. We are getting the maximim dollar that we can out of Western Northlands , we have expended it all, and theref ore if we want to complete these proj ects , we have to use 100 percent provincial dollars. MR .

WALD ING : Well , if the matter if irrelevan t, then why does the Minister te ll us that it is a Northlands proj ect? MR . ORCHA RD: Because a portion of it will be North lands project , and it started under initial funding of Northlands proje ct , but the costs went beyond the $20 million or whatever the figure was that we had to play with over the three year period at Western Northlands . MR . WALDI NG: Another question, Mr .

Chairm an , with yoo.r indulgence, since we are speaking of cons truction of roads and the Northlands Agreement , the Min­ ister made mention a few minutes ago under appropriation 8 - and I believe it was (d) - that there was some construction there under Canada-Manitoba Northlands Agreem ent . Will the Minister explain why there is a separation of those two amo unts , and are they similar ? MR . ORCHARD: That is the Cross Lake ro ad, which is in appropr iation 8, Acqu isition/Construct ion of Physical Assets , under Western Northlands. MR . WALDING : My question to the Minister is why? MR. ORCHARD: Pardon?

It is not a numbered road , Mr. Chairm an. It is under the Community Roads Program , which is a specific part of Acqu isition/­ Construction of Physical Assets . - 1310 -

Thur sday , 20 March , 1980 MR . WALDING : Is that the criterion then, Mr . Chairma n, for deciding whether some thing is a capital pro jec t or not , that is has a number to it? MR . ORCHA RD: You see , the difference between 6 and any other roads that we may build as comm unity roads is that the majo rity , we ll, the roads in No . 6 are PR and PTHs . Roads in Acquisition/ Construction of Physical Assets under the Western North lands Agreement are comm unity road , are access roads to comm unities. MR , WALDING : Is the Minister suggesting that any roads that he builds under 6 are not capital projects? MR .

ORCHA RD: No , I am not suggesting that. MR . WALDING : Can I ask the Minister then maybe I should ask him later on, but can he assure the Com mittee that the $5 million under the Northlands Agreem ent , is that all for road construction and is that subject to the 15 perc ent hold-back, the same as the amount that we have seen in 6. (c)? MR . ORCHARD: What $5 mi llion? MR. WALDING : $5 ,1 55, 30 0.0 0. Approp riation 8. (

d) Canada-Manitoba Northlands Agreem ents , MR . ORCHA RD: Ye s. MR . CHAIRM AN: The Member for St , Vital. MR. WALDING: Thank you, Mr. Chairm an . MR . CHAIRM AN: The Member for Rossmere . MR. VIC SCHROEDER : Thank you.

I have been listenin g to all of this dis­ cussion in the Highways Estimates with int erest , but as a city member I have some conc erns abou t roads and bridges in the city , and I am just wonderin g whether any­ where in these Estimates there would be any funds available , I won' t mention the padding of the boulevards on Henderson Highway , but what we do need down in our end of town very badly is some more access to the downt own area.

We have , up until this past year , in the last ten years and mo re , had an extremely large amount of new housing up in the East and North Kildonan areas, and we are getting into larger and larger traffic jams, and I am just wonderin g whether there is any money available through the Highways Department for the City of Winn ipeg, and especially one project has been suggested , and that is to build another bridge at where the Redwood Bridge is ri ght now, a two-lane , and then take down the existing bridge and build another two-lane so that we would have a four-lane from Henderson to Main Street .

I would certainly hope that the provincial government would give consideration to some thing like that in order to alleviate some of the traffic jam problems which we have both mornin g and night every working day of the year . It is costing us an awful lot of time and an awful lot of energy just sitting around and waiting for people to be able to get across the river . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rock Lake . MR . EINA RSON: On a point of orde r. I think, Mr. Chairm an, we discussed that under Resolution 84 and it has already passed . I don't want to prevent debate or informati on, Mr.

Chairm an, but this is under Resolution 84, which deals with assistance to urban areas. MR . CHAIRMAN: 6. (a)- -pass; 6. (b)- -pass. The Member for Lac du Bonnet . MR . USKIW : You motioned to me , Mr . Chairman, that there were three or four speake r_s ahead of me . I pre sume that I am now number one . - 1311 -

Thursday , 20 March , 1980 MR . CHAIRM AN: The Member for Lac du Bonnet . I of ten have names down here in committee and if there is no showness, I re-check and I just go on. MR . USKIW: Mr . Chairman , I would like to ask the Minister why the depart­ ment isn 't compl eting the reconstruction of Highway No. 12. The Minister may not be aware , but the Deputy certainly would be, that it was reconstructed up to High­ way 317 and was never pursued beyond that point .

There is still another stretch of 12 left to bring the reconstruction area up to Highway 59 , and I'm just wonder­ ing why nothing is happenin g in that area . It 's a very old , old road. MR . ORCHA RD: Mr. Chairman , it may well be a very old , old ro ad, and it's one of a number of very old , old roads in the province that we have to allocate a limi ted number of construction dollars to, and it wasn 't one of the ones that went into the program. MR. USKIW: In view of the fact that I can 't ident ify one single project in the const ituency of Lac du Bonnet in the proposed program , Mr. Chairma n, I raise those