Manitoba Hansard — 15 June 1992 (Sitting 86B, 35th Legislature, 3rd Session)

35-3-86b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third session • Thlrty·Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 39-40 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XLI No. 868 • 8 p.m., MONDAY, JUNE 15, 1992 Printed by the Office of the 0.-.s Printer, Province of 1W1111Hoba ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLAnVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FJLMON, Gary, H on. FIN DLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESH AMMER, Harold, Hon. HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATH LJN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold ORCHARD, Donald, Hon . PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Portage Ia Prairie Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin- Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur- Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wol seley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupertsland Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Asslniboia River East Rossm ere Pembina Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Ain Aon La Verendrye Fort Garry St.

Johns Swan River PARTY Liberal NDP NDP Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC NDP PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

4664 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, June 15,1992 The House met at 8 p.m. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent SecUons) CULTURE, HERITAGE AND CITIZENSHIP Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Order, please. The minister to continue with her opening statements. Hon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): I think we just ended off discussing the new grants program that will be put in place to distribute grants to the heritage community, and started my remarks on our new Recreation Policy that was announced last fall that outlines this gove rnment's recognition of its impor tance, and our com mitment to furthering the development of recreational opportu nities for Manitoba in every community. The fall announcement revealed the introduction of a new Recreation Oppor tunities Program to replace the Recreation District Grant Progr am.

This new program expands access to nor thern municipalities and has been developed to better meet the needs of rural communities. I am very proud of the fact that it has been well-received since its inception. Through these Estimates we will experience the first effect of budgetary changes to support our proactive development of recreation opportunities across this provi nce. We will extend the Research Agreement we entered into with the University of Manitoba. Existing provisions permit extension beyond the original three-year period.

A two-year continuation will al lo w us to pursue made-in-Mani toba research on recreation issues and trends. I am also very pleased with the success of the Nort hern Recreation Director Pilo t Proj ect. This two-year initiative provided training to 26 recreation directors serving over 40 Indian bands in Northern Affairs communities. We undertook this initiative in co-operation with the Departments of Education and Northern Affairs. After graduation in August, many will soon be hired in their communities.

As this was a pilot initiative, we are com mitted to study the effect of the program and consider any necessary improvements. I expect the results of the study to demon strate the val ue of con tinuin g our co-operative efforts to impr ove co mmuni ty recreation oppo rtunities in the North. The Regional Services branch will continue to provide decentralized consulting services to com munities in rural, remo te and northern Manitoba from seven regional offices located in Brandon , Beausejo ur, Morden, Dauphin, Gimli, Thompson and The Pas.

By provid ing access to departmental resour ces, regional staff support com munities in meeting their goals for leisure development and impro ving the quality of life for their citizens. We have also entered into a co-operative initiative with the Canadian Red Cross in developing a Water Safety Education Program for northern residents. I also wish to note the steps taken in my department to protect our environment throug h respon sible and cost-effective recycling initiatives. Within the Queen's Printer, 90 percent of paper stocks have been converted to alkaline processe d.

Approximately 75 percent of all in-house printing is double sided, and 10 0 percent of internally produced envelopes use recycled stock. Versatech Industries handles the shredding of gov ernment documents under contract at Manitoba Archives. In 199 1 , they recycled 80 percent of the 696 tonnes handled. In the first quarter of 1 992, that proportion has increased to 97 percent. *

(2005) Mr. Depu ty Cha irper son, I bel ieve these Estimates to be a solid reflection of my department's commitment to serving the needs of Manitobans as directed by our mandate. It clearly illustrates responsi ble action in difficult econom ic times is possible while meeting these needs. Manitobans place a great importance on many aspects of life in this province . Those of our arts, culture, multiculturalism, heritage, recreation and citizenship support are amongst the most prominent in these treasured aspects of Manitoba. We believe, that with these proposed Estimates, Culture, Heritage and Citizenship will be able to

4665 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 15 , 19 92 meet Manitobans' expectations in realistic ways. We further believe this budget will allow us to maintain and strengthen these valued aspects of our community and their relationship to the current and future well-being of our econom y. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. Mr. Dep uty Chairperson : We thank the honourable minister for those opening remarks. Does the critic from the official party, the honourable member for Wolseley, have an opening statement? Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolsele y): Mr.

Depu ty Chairperson, since the minister has taken about 40 minutes of Estimates time to report, essentially regurgitate the annual report of her department, I will try and be brief in my opening sta tements. I was disappointed by this annual report. It seems to me for a Department of Culture and Heritage, one would expect to see far mor e innovation, far more enthusiasm, far more new ideas, new progr ams and new ways of meeting the cultural challenges that Manitobans and other North Americans are facing as well.

I have spoken before in this department and suggested that things were certainly slowing down, grinding to a halt. It seems to me now as though they are pretty much in a deep freeze, that you see no bubble, no enthusiasm, no initiative in this department. It seems to me that the leadership of this department that the minister is offe ring is not a reflection on the staff in any way whatsoever, but the leadership that this minister is off ering is essentially one of a bunker mentality.

I would like to be proved wrong, so I look forward to the Estimates; in fact for the minister to show us that there is indeed creativity and energy that she is offe ring in eliciting from her staff in this area. * (201 0) I would again say that I was disappoi nted by the minis ter's sta tem ents on cultur e . To my recollection, she only mentioned one particular cultural event that seemed to have highlighted her past year, and that was Les Miserables, an $80-a-seat production brought from outside the provi nce. This was highlighted for us as the event of the cultural life of Manitoba in the past year.

I am sure the minis ter did not want to leave that impression, and I hope that she will perhaps offer some alternatives of what have been the highlights of her cultural year during the Estimates process. As I have tried to say before in Estimates, I think that Manitobans, a million people of very diverse origins, are facing a number of significant issues in their cultural life.

They are ones that they share with many other people around the world in some cases, but there are gov ernments around the world which are trying to meet some of these issues head on, and it is those kind of innovative programs which 1 do not see coming from this department. One of the ways in which most Manitobans receive their cultural experience is through television. We are increasingly watching more and mor e television.

I do not see anything in the department's progr ams, or recognition of the cultural life of Manitobans, of the role that television is playing and the way in which this go vernment is offe ring leadership for a Manitoba perspective, for Manitoba productions, for Manitoba experience, for new audiences for Manitoba television. It seems to me that ought to be one of the major areas, focuses of attention . Most areas of Europe and North America are facing a homogeniz ation of culture, particularly through the means of television, but also through films.

I think the one area that I would commend the minister on, and that is in the addition of monies for film production and in the extension of the CIDO agreement, that there has been some attempt in the department at least to ensure that production facilities are available and are being used by Manitob ans. I am not sure that the department has done very much to expand the audiences. It is that marketing and audience expansion and acces sibili ty of audiences to participate in Manitoba culture that I would also draw the minister's attention to.

We are in a period of the early years of a Free Trade Agreement which has brought into question many of the aspects of cultural production and cultural accessibility, not just in film and television, but also in books and newspapers and cultural periodicals. I do not see anything in the minister's statement which addresses that particular issue which Manitobans, I believe, feel very strongly about.

We are at a stage in the constitutional negotiations where some reports would have us believe that there is an agreement, however much in quotes you want to put that in, to devolve some parts of culture to the provi nces. I have asked the

June 15 , 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4666 minister in the House about this. I would like to pursue this even further. I do not think that the answers she gave in the House were very satisfactory in giving us an idea of what the Manitoba position is at the constitutional table on culture and what the significance of the federal cultural dollars is for Manitoba and what we stand to lose in those changes in federal positi ons on cultural agreements. As the minister knows, it is not just the broad-scale agreements that I am concerned about.

I am concerned about the federal definition of culture. • (2015 ) When I asked in the House, the minister said that the federal gov ernment claimed that it would be retaining the national cultural institutions.

The danger in that, as I am sure she is well aware, is that the federal gov ernment will, consistent with its practices over the past five or six years, begin to define national cultural institutions as only those which are in the capital region, that the national mu seum , the national galleries, the national granting agencies such as will be left in the next two years will be considered as national cultural institutions and they will retain those in Ottawa.

In the past, say in the last 1 0 years and certainly under the years of the Uberal go vernment, the national cultural institutions were defined also as regional institutions. The presence of the National Film Board in Winnipeg, Hal ifax and elsewhere was defined as an element of national culture. What I am very much afraid of is that we stand to lose those regional branches of the national cu ltural institutions.

I do not think I have to underline for the minister or anybody who is involved in the cultural community in Manitoba the severe impact that would have on us, very dramatically, very drastically in the losses to the museums, to the archives, to the archiv es networks, to the galleries, to the conservation program s, to the performing arts, as well of course as to the facilities and the training and the standards that are offered to us by the National Film Board and the region al productions of the CBC. Those are very, very important elements of the cultural life of Manitobans.

I see very great dangers in the constit utional discussions that are going on now of losses for Manitobans. I do want to pursue that. I thought the minister's answers in Question Period were not very helpful, and I think it is such an important issue that we should be pursuing it further. We are seeing over the past five or six years across this country a concentration of wealth, a growing gap between rich and poor.

I was not just idly picking out the $80-a-seat tick et to Les Miserables that the minister mentioned, because it seemed to me that the rising price of theatre tickets and of tickets to the performing arts and, in some cases, the rising cost of or dinary public access to our basic institutions such as museums and art galleries are putting the cultural expression of many aspects of Manitoba life out of reach of ordinary Manitob ans. In the past such access was limited by geography In some cases.

I believe what we have seen in the last five years and the fact that we are now looking at 60 percent of the wealth of this country being concentrated in the hands of about 15 or 20 percent of the peop le, tha t that has very severe impl ications for accessibility to culture because, at the same time that this concentration has been occurri ng, we are also seeing the increasing cost of admission to basic cultural institutions across the country. I have raised this with the minister before . Her answers in the last set of Estimates I think have stayed with me throughout the year.

When I raised the question of what do my constituents or anybody's constituents do who are on some form of social assistance or unemployment insurance-a nd as we know, that is in the region of more than 60,000 Manitobans-what do they do when they cannot afford the entrance to the Winnipeg Art Gallery or to a perfo rmance or to particular festivals or the entrances that are required in many cultural produc tions? Her answer was that they could take a walk along the riverbanks, that was still free, and that apart from the obvious

interpretations one would draw from that, I think the other issue is, of cou rse, that the minister, seemed to me, to be very clearly confusing leisure and the arts. I would be looking for some recognition of the differences that she does see in those areas. •

(2020) I am concerned about education and the relation ship between the Department of Education and this ministry. There is, I believe, a joint comm ittee bet ween this mi nis try and the Department of Education, I do not think the minister

4667 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 15 , 19 92 talked about in her presentatio n. I hope we will have the opportunity to pursue that because I think the thrust of every report that has been done on culture, whether it has been at the federal level on training in the arts, or whether it has been at the federal level on comm unication and culture, or the minister's own report, the DeFehr Report done in 19 90, every one of them has expounded at length upon the necessity of expanding the role of cultural training and cuhural education and arts education in the schools.

It seems to me that what we are hearing from at least the arts community, because I think many of those particular reports did not actually touch the broader comm unity, but cert ainly the arts commu nity itseH is saying that we need to expand tha t kind of access.

Given the absenc e in expansion of arts centres of access to cultural expression amongst the broad population, and I do not think that has been expanded in the minister's term since 1 988, it seems to me that the schools are one of our avenues, one of our opportu nities to ensure that a broa der accessibility to arts or broader participation, not just consumption, but participation in the arts, is pos sible. That link between the Department of Education and the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, I am interested in pursuing. I am particularly also concerned about the DeFehr Report.

The minister made a number of references to it picking out the areas where she has chosen to agree with it, the creation of an Arts Branch within the department and some application of capital improve ments to one or two buildings, important buildings, and certainly expensive buildings in the city of Winnipeg, but it seemed to me that the DeFehr Report had a number of other important areas, one in particular which talked about the movemen t toward .7 percent funding for the arts. The minister and I have had the opportunity to debate this particular goal in private members' hour in the last session.

I was surprised by her responses in there and I wondered if she had had the opportunity to perhaps reconsider that. I was surprised that it was not a goal of this department. It was not one, I think, that either the DeFehr Report or the opposition would expect her to reach within a year, perhaps even two years. What I understood from that debate was the minister did not even have it as a goal. I would be interested in pursuing some other elements of the DeFehr Report, as well. I could, I suppose, also ask the Crescentwood memorial question on lotte ries, but maybe you could pursue that one, too.

I would like to also pursue some questions this time about the Arts Council and about some of the larger institutions and their reporting lines to the minister, the Winnipeg Art Gallery for example, and the Manitoba Museum of Man and Nature. In terms of heritage, I think we have seen a reduction in the department, a repetition of programs which have been ther e for some considerable time and essentially a reactive response on the part of the minister. I do not see many new initiatives coming out of that, particularly very few initiatives in the area of touri sm.

That is one of the areas I would like to pursue with the minister, what the links are to tourism, and what is being developed in those fields. The Heritage Federation, I think is probably going to be an issue for a good portion of these Estimates, has been a great deal of disappointment in the heritage comm unity with the way in which the minister handled the opportunity for reform of the heritage granting system.

It seems I think to r:post people, whatever their position on the Heritage Federation, that this was handled in a very highhanded and unnecessarily autocratic manner, one which perhaps has lost the good will of many volunteers in the heritage movement. It will take the minister some time I think to win back that good will which was somewh at unnecessarily lost. *

(2025) I will finish my remarks there, and now if the member for Inkster wants to make some. Mr. Deputy Chai rperson: We thank the honourable member for those remarks. Does the critic for the second opp osition party, the honourable member for Inkster, have an op ening statement? Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, yes, I do have some opening remarks that I wanted to put onto the record . I am sure that some might find it enlightening, others might not.

It seems every time we go into the Estimates, there always seems to be an issue before us that I seem to conce ntrate a lot of time and effort on. Last year it seemed to be the Multicultural Secretariat's offi ce, MIC and so forth, and I had spent a good number of the hours dealing with the multicuhural grants.

June 15 , 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4668 Because of the bill that we currently have before us, once again no doubt we will be spending a great deal of time with the Multicultural Grants Advisory Counc il. In addition to that, we will be spending some time with respect to the Secretariat's office and the outreach off ice, if you will, and so forth to try to get a better idea in terms of what it is that the gov ernment is trying to accomplish by having these services offered .

Something that is somewhat new to myseH, as the minister pointed out a number of months ago, this time we will be spending a good deal of time with the Manitoba Heritage Federation, because of some of the actions that the gove rnment has taken, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, made me think about what had happened to MIC a number of years ago, and we were very discouraged in the manner in which this came about.

I know I have had opportu nities in the past, such as my grievance, to talk about some of the things that had concerned myseH with respect to what actually took place and the manner in which the Heritage Federation was dealt with. T.1ere are other issues in dealing with the public libraries, that I have raised previously, and looking toward some sort of a comm itment from the minister as to what her role is in the preservation of especially com munity libraries not only in rural Manitoba, but also in the city of Winnipeg.

There seems to be emphasis or more emphasis needed in terms of the film classifications and other aspects of he ritage preservation and cultural preservation too that need to be addressed. There are also areas in which we feel the gov ernmen t could be mo ving more quickly ol'l-6l'eas such as English as a Second Language, areas such as the Immigrant Credentials. We believ e the gove rnment has been somewhat dragging their feet on some of these issues. Where I do find that the government has been moving in the right direction, I will be sure to point it out, but, Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I will definitely be pointing out the areas in which we feel that the gov ernment has been going back war d . Unfortunate ly, far too ofte n we have been seeing a number of areas where the gove rnment has actually been going backward as opposed to doing what is really and truly in the best interests of the comm unity, or of the department that she is responsible for.

Having said those very few ope ning remarks, I would like to get into the questioning and in fact would suggest that we possibly even cons ider doing it in the same fashion that we did with the Civil Service or the Department of Labour, if the minister and the opposition critic do not mind, where we deal with the one line in particular, the Executive Support, Salaries, and then once we are done asking all of the questions, she can still have her support staff, that we could pass all of the lines. Failing that, we can go through line by line, whatever the minister feels most comfortable doing. Mr.

Deputy Chairperson: Under normal Manitoba practi ce, de bate of the Minister's Salary is tradit ionally the last -item considered for the Estimates of the department. Accordi ngly, we shall defer consideration of this item and now proceed with consideration of the next line. At this time, we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table, and we ask that the minister introduce the staff members present. •

(2030) Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would like to introduce Tom Carson, Deputy Minister of Culture, Her itage and Citizenship, and Ke rry O'Shaughnessy from financial services. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We will now move on to ite m 1. (b)(1 ) Execu tiv e Su pport: Salaries $327,600. Ms. Friesen: I suggested in my opening remarks that this department had become predomi nantly reactive, that it responded rather than initiating. I want to start on this line by asking the minister for perhaps some response to that. What is the strategy for Manitoba culture, in particular, for the arts in Manitoba?

In what ways does this department see that it is expanding the cu ltural par tici pation of Mani tob ans -not consumption, but participation in the arts? How have audiences been expanded in the past year or even in the past three or four years? What new audiences are being reached? Is there a strategy? Have you got a goal where you are going to, and what are the stages on that road? Mrs. Mitchelson: I listened intently to the opening remarks of the critic from the New Democr atic Party.

I must say that I must agree to disagree with much of the rhetoric that she did put on the record during her remarks, and some of the commen ts that she made on lacklustre performance of our department.

4669 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 15 , 19 92 I think we have been very forward looking since we have taken over as gov ernment. One of the first things we did undertake was an extensive review of the arts through the Art DeFehr Arts Policy Review comm ittee, where there was extensive consultation within the communi ty. In fact, the repo rt cam e up with several recommendations. We indicated at the time that we would attempt to deal with some of them in a short period of time; others, of course, would take longer.

The one recomme ndation which we discussed last year around the Estimates table, and it looks like we will be discussing again, is the commi tment of gov ernment to reach • 7 percent total budget funding for the arts in our pro vince. I have indicated many times that it has been a laudable goal that in difficult economic times is hard to att empt to achieve when gov ernment has to set prioriti es. We have made it extremely clear that one of our first priorities is n ot raising taxes, and we have not over five consecutive budgets.

As a matter of fact, we have decreased personal income taxes over five budgets, and so that has been a co mmitment. It is one that we have under taken and we have li ved up to tha t comm itment. We also have indic ated that, of course, health, social services and education would be of higher prio rities when we had to alloca te increased budget dollars to departments. I am pleased to say, and I know that last year was a tough year for culture and heritage, but in fact, we did see reductions. I am pleased to say that we have maintained, and in some instances, enhanced our financial commitment to the arts.

We have restructured the cultural side of my department, the cultural resour ces, and developed an Arts Branch. We have looked at all of the programs and have just introduced four new programs that will deal proac tively with culture throughout the provi nce. We have restructured so that in fact multicultural grants for the arts, if they are specifically arts related, are funded through the Arts Branch now and that they are not, if you might say, som ewhat ghettoiz ed through multicultural grants.

In fact, there are arts at the comm unity when we did consultation through the DeFehr Report made a recommen dation that we should include all arts toge ther. They should not be segrega ted or se parat ed. Tha t has been accomplished through this process. We have looked atwhatthe Arts Council has been doing in relationship to what the department has been doing, and the Arts Council will now be looking after all the professional side of arts, and the Arts Branch will be looking at more the comm unity and the development side of arts.

I would indicate that we have moved on the recommendations from the policy review. We still have some recomm endations to undertake and we will continue to work along that path, but I believe that we have been proact ive. If you look at proactive, we had an NDP administration in place from '81 to '88, and there was no arts policy review undertaken and no change made. I think in our four years of gove rnment, we have undertaken a comprehe nsive review. We have some good recom mendations, and we are acting on those recomm endations. Ms. Friesen: Can I put my question again?

What is the strategy of the department to enhance the accessibility of the arts to a broader range of Manitobans? What the minister has just talked about is essentially the restructuring, administrative procedures for the distribution of grants. Could she explain how that restructuring has made music or art or perfor ming arts or visual arts-how has that made those aspects of cultural life in Manitoba more accessible to a broader range of Manitob ans? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Depu ty Chai rperson, I indicated that we did restructuring. We do now have an Arts Branch.

That Arts Branch is there in the new progr amming that has been developed, is there to support commu nity initiative and when the commu nity has a good Idea and they think that they can attract audiences, in fact, we are there as a branch now, to support those initiatives. I think that is a major move in the right direction. I think our agencies here in our pro vince, are doing better than most across the country. We see major deficits, and we, I have to say, too, have had some problem with deficits.

We have entered into several deficit reduction prog rams this year with some of our major institutions, but we know that they are doing as well, or better, than many across the country. I indicated in my opening remarks, and I think it was one thing that the NDP critic did indicate was a positive move, and that was more support for our cultu ral ind ustries. Our filmm akers here in Manitoba are among the most successful, I think, across the country. We are doing very well, and we are really proud and pleased.

June 15, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4670 Symphony, MTC and Prairie Theatre Exchange are among the many organizations in our province that have been artistically very successful and financially successful. The audience participation is good, and I cannot say that if you looked across the country at what is happening in other provinces that you would say Manitoba is faring any worse that anyone else. As a matter of fact, I would think we are probably doing better. Ms. Friesen: I think there are also some significant losses in the past year.

I think the difficulties of the Warehouse Theatre and a number of other institutions that we will come to later should also be seen in the minister's summing up of what is happening in terms of institutions. The basic question I am getting at is: Yes, the minister has gra nts; yes, the minister has restructured those and has done it in conjunction with some of the recommendations made by the DeFehr Report; and yes, that is meeting some of the requirements of the institutions who ask for grants.

What I am looking for from a Department of Culture in Manitoba is some strategic overall perspective that says, this is how we want Manitobans to be able to have access to their cultural institutions and cultural expression. •

(2040) For example, in any of the issues that the minister instan ced-the Manitoba Theatre Centre, the Winnipeg Symphony, the Winnipeg Ballet-do we have any indication, does the minister have any concern about the expansion of those audiences? Are they reaching for example people whom they did not reach before? Do we have more Manitobans who are becoming involved in play writing, in play workshopping, in becoming actors themselves at whatever level?

How many more people and different kinds of people, not just the people who can afford the $30 for the symphony or the ballet ticket, but how many new kinds of audiences and new parts of the population are being encouraged to have access to different forms of cultural expression? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, one of the things that has been undertaken as a joint effort by the federal government and all the provinces across the country was the Consumer Arts Profile, which looked at what kind of audiences are being attracted by different arts venues.

I think it indicated that there are some difficulties, there are some things that need to be looked at. It will be a valuable tool and resource to cultural organizations, cultural institutions and in fact a tool that government can work. Within the Arts Branch, we can work with the community to try to highlight for them the types of audiences that are not being reached.

I think one of the indications in that profile was in fact that some of the ethnic communities are not being reached by some of the artistic venues, so that is an area where we will hopefully work with our organizations over the next period of time to see whether that cannot be enhanced. Ms. Friesen: I noticed in the minister's annual report, or perhaps it is in the Estimates itself, that the department sees its role as making available the information from that audience study to Manitobans. I wonder what conclusions the minister has drawn from that report. Again, I come back to my first basic question.

What is the strategy for expanding accessibility to the arts in Manitoba? What did the minister draw from that study, what kind of programs, new ideas, new programs, new incentives for particular groups who are applying to you to in fact move in the directions indicated by that study? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, as I indicated before, we have now received the Consumer Arts Profile. It has not been around for long. It has just been completed. We have evaluated and analyzed that. One of the new programs under the Arts Branch is Grant Assistance for Arts Development.

That grant program will support audience development and arts skills development programming by nonprofit community-based arts groups. These programs must take place in Manitoba and must be open and accessible to the general public, and that will be one of the criteria for grant assistance. I think when you look at the study, it did show that the companies that we have are fairly well developed and have good skills. Our ticket prices are still $2 to $4 dollars lower than the rest of the country. That would be a goal, I would imagine, that we would like to have in place.

That would be to ensure that our ticket prices do remain lower than other provinces. Ms. Friesen: I did not specifically want to get into ticket prices at this stage, but I will use it as the second part of my question.

4671 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA June 15 , 19 92 The first one would be, would the mini ster consider publishing that analysis that has been conducted so that all Manitoban arts organizations or educators or teachers who are interested in the arts will know what the audience is, what is being missed, who is not being reached, so that they will be able to develop some plans of their own if the minister is not going to have some overall strategy for the expansion. That is first of all. Second of all, the minister raised the relative price of tickets. That is only one element in accessibility .

For many people, as I suggested , $2 or $4 dolla rs out of $30 is irrelevant. I mean, they are just not going to come anywhere near the ticket price for many of Manitoba's cultural organizations, particularly those which are well funded out of public money. It is an obvious critique that is made by many people that in fact the taxes, if the minister wants to think of them that way, of many Manitobans are in fact funding institutions and programs for relatively few people.

It seems to me that one of the comments that has been made about tickets is not justthe price, but that we ought to be finding other ways of distributing tickets. Many tickets, for example, require credit cards. The only places you can buy tickets are som etimes do wntown. A wider me ans of distributing, which might be done by some overall marketing proposals that might be instituted by the government or that they might encourage from other people, could be a possibility.

That is what I am looking for in some kind of overall strategy fro m this government, of expanding accessibility, looking at all of those elements which limit people's participation in the cultural life of the community, in many cases a cultural life which they have paid for. Does the government have any strat egies perhaps coming out of this audience survey that the federal government has done? Is it prepared to publish that analysis ? Is it prepared to make som e suggestions to arts organizations or to other community groups who might be able to collectively find ways to expand acces sibility? Mrs.

Mitchelson: I think we all would love to see every performance that is ever undertaken in Manitoba seen by every Manitoban. That would be an ultimate undertaking. The consumer profile has been out for two to three weeks. We are in the process of doing analysis within the department. I think that information could be readily shared, and I guess any information that might be pertinent, we talked education and whether through the education system or teachers we should be making available certain parts.

I would be very prepared to share the report with members of the opposition and, as we get closer to an analysis, I would undertake to try to share any information that might be pertinent to any arts venue with those who are in the process of looking at or developing innovative ways to reach audiences and have greater audience participation. Ms. Friesen: I am interested in the department's analysis of that particular survey. I have not seen it.

I wonder if in fact it is applicable to Manitoba circumsta nces, whether it takes account of the dispar ate nature of our population, the very many languages and diff erent cultures, as well as the variation between north and south and the concentration of population in one city. Those are some of the things that I would be looking for in an analysis of that particular survey, but I thank the minister for suggesting that she will share it, and I would look forward next time to in fact discussing a provincial s trategy that might emerge from that. The second area I wanted to touch on was the Constitution.

We have already looked at some elements of that in Question Period. Perhaps I could raise with the minister again my concerns about the regional institutions of the national government and what position the minister is taking on this with her cabinet colleagues and what position Manitoba is taking to the constitutional table. Mrs.

Mitchelson: As I indicated , I cannot recall the month now, I believe it was in October or November of last year, I do not remember the exact date when we held the minis ters of c ulture meeting, I raised that issue, brought that issue to the table as an issue of concern to Manitoba, and that was the devolution of culture to the provinces. I indic ated at the time that we were opposed to anything that would, I think the words I used were, cause a feeding frenzy , whereby every province was trying to get at the table first to try to get their share or more than their fai r share of federal dollars.

In fact, those that were able to negotiate an agreement-! think we have seen that on the immigration side of things with Quebec being the

June 15 , 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4672 only provi nce to have an immigration agreement with the federal gov ernment, a bilateral agreement. There is a sense that they do get more than their fair share of dollars and immigrants to their pro vince. *

(2050) I raised that concern as being a real concern for Manitoba, that we were not in favour of devolution where it would impact us and have provi nces fighting with each other for their share of federal dollars. At the time I raised the issue, the federal minister did assure us that devolution was not in the cards. We are now hearing in this round of const itutional talks in fact that there might be some cult ure, and it has not been defined to my knowl edge, but that in fact the federal cultural institutions would remain intact. In my mind, there is no agreement.

I guess the deputies from across the country were to meet at the beginning of June to discuss this and other cultural issues. This was one that was high on the priority list but, in fact, that meeting has been postponed because there has not been any resolution around the constituti onal table on what any fina l position might be. That has been postponed pending some further sense from our federal counterparts and through the negotiation of what might be there. We have no idea at this point. Ms. Friesen: Was it March of this year that you met with the other ministers? Mrs. Mitchelson: October of last year.

Our annual meetings are in the fall. I believe it was Octob er. Ms. Friesen: Was the federal minister present? Mrs. Mitchelson: Yes. Ms. Friesen: In September, the federal proposals came out which suggested devolution of culture, so I am surprised they were not prepared to discuss it. Mrs. Mitchelson: Yes, the federal paper had come out and, in fact, that was the reason that we raised it, because we were opposed to it. In fact, the federal minister did assure us at that meeting that devol ution was not on the table. Ms. Friesen: Let me pursue a little more.

You used the same phrase that came out of those meetings, the feeding frenzy. It puzzled me when you used it in Question Period, because, where is the assumption that there is anything to be frenzied about? There is no assumption that devolution is going to mean that there will be federal funding for whatever is devolv ed. Mrs. Mitchelson: I would say that Manitoba has a lot more to lose through devolution. That is because we have probably more quality arts per capita than any other province across the country.

Therefore , we get more federal dollars per capita in Manitoba, maybe not more per group, but we do get more federal dollars per capita. In fact, we would stand to lose if there was devolution and there was funding not based on artistic merit, artistic quality. So I have concerns about devolution in that respect. Ms. Friesen: Well, my concerns are that there will not be any money at all for anything outside of the Ottawa- Hull area. You r answers seem to assume that there would be and there would be some competition for it. So I am wonder ing, what is the basis for that assumption? Is it hope? Mrs.

Mitchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I guess we have no reason to believe-there seems to be a commitment of federal funding to the arts. I have no reason to believe there would be a reduction in funding. The concern that I might have would be signing of agreements with the provi nces, and we have no idea what those agreemen ts might say, or what, and if you were first at the table, would each agreement be different, and if you were first there, would there be any special consideration?

So our concern is that because we do have such quality arts and we do receive more than our share of federal dollars that we might, through bilateral agreements, stand to lose . Ms. Friesen: Well, as those discussions, if there are to be discussions, continue, I think I would ask the minister to carry with her the concerns of the opposition . First of all, what we have seen in the past several years on the part of the federal government is the taking away of federal grants to cultural institutions.

The ones that I mentioned, such as the museums, the block funding to museums, would give anyone great cause for concern about the devolution of culture without some very specific commitments to the funding of institutions outside the capital region. The second thing that I continue to underline is, how is the federal gover nment defining national cultural institutions? If you look at the most recent advertisements that they have been using for Canada 12 5 and others, they in fact are defining

4673 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOB A June 15 , 19 92 Canada's cultural institutions as only within the national capital region. Now that could be a quirk of that particular advertising campaign but, given the proposals to devolve culture, it gives me concerns. So those are the two main things that I am concerned about there. The third thing I asked the minister in Question Period was for a study of the impact of federal cultural dollars upon Manitoba. The minister has already responded that we do get more per capita than some other provinces.

Can you indicate what othe r studies you have done to look at the impact of federal-provincial agreements, of the impact of tourism agreements on culture and heritage, the role of the National Parks Service, of the archives grants, the Canadian Council of Archives, all of those national institutions which bring federal cultural dollars into Manitoba? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we have never done individual studies on all of these. We have no reason to believe that there should be any reduction through devolution of cultural powers in those areas.

I do want to indicate that we have a concern as a provi ncial gov ernment at offload ing in every area throughout gov ernment by the federal gov ernment. What traditionally happens is, when progr ams are offload ed, indeed there is an expectation that the province should pick up the federal portion of funding, and we just can not realistically do that throughout government.

It is a major con cern, and I think you have heard from many government departments and ministers in the House that we are actively pursuing the federal gove rnment and challenging them to maintain their commi tments where they have responsibility. We believe they have a responsibil ity for culture, too . Ms. Friesen: Well, that is what I want to hear from this minister. I have heard from other ministers that they are actively pursuing, after gaps of some months, the federal gov ernment, but I have not heard that from this minister.

What the minister seems to suggest is that she is making assumptions about the con tinuing pro vision of funds through various programs for pro vincial institution s. It seems to me that you would want to know what the total bill is, what do we stand to lose in these pote ntial changes, and what kind of representations are bein g brought to bear by the provincial government or by the encouragement of other groups and organizations in Manitoba.

I know that some other pro vinces ha ve in fact done dollar-by-dollar studies of what the losses will be in cultural institutions, and the bill is enormous. * (21 00) As the minister suggests, in Manitoba, we have a higher proportion of money coming from the federal government per capita than is going to other prov inces. It seems to me crucial that we should know now how much we are getting in all areas, and what our losses could be if the expectation is going to be, or even if the negotiation is going to be, based upon what the province can be expected to pick up. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson , as I said, there is noth ing written in stone. We do not have a Constitution and a constitut ional agreement. It seems that we have been up, down and around all sides of many issues. I do not know if we are any closer today at the reaching of a conse nsus than we were when Meech lake died. I do not have any sense at this point in time. We do not have any clear indication. That was one of the reasons that the deputies from across the country dealing with cultural issues did postpone their meeting until they had some more clarification on what in fact the proposals were going to be.

I have indicated that we believe we have quality arts here in Manitoba, that we receive more dollars per capita of federal funding than some other provinces do. It is attributed to the quality of Manitoba art, and we will do everything within our power to ensure that the dollars that flow to Manitoba will flow as a result of our ability to perform artistically. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, can I then lo ok at another area of federal-provincial jurisdiction, and that is in training progr ams?

I am thinking particularly of Canadian job strategy and am wondering what participation the minister has had in developing training programs in cultural industries or in areas of cultural interest in those program s. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we have had informal discussions with the I.C., but no thing has been developed as yet. There have been a few spotty situations where maybe the Manitoba Theatre Centre or the symphony have received some support through federal job training strategy, but there is noth ing extremely concre te.

June 15 , 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOB A 4674 Ms. Friesen: What connections does the minister have with Workforce 2000? Are there any cultural training progr ams being developed through that, or are there any ideas for developing cultural training program s through that money? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, at this point in time, no, there has not been any discussion. Ms. Friesen: Could the minister perhaps expand upon that? Here we have a $3-million progr am, one of the few job training program s in Manitoba that Manitoba has the opportu nity to direct.

We have, I think by the minister's and my agreement, an area of cultural industries which is very important in terms of its economic impact in the prov ince. I would assume that there is some interest in the department in expanding accessibility and training for the arts. It is one of the programs that is developed by the Manitoba Arts Coun cil, so where again-and I am starting again from my original question, the departmental strategy for the arts in Manitoba. Mrs. Mitchelson: To my understanding, we have not really had a skills shortage or a job shortage in our cultural industries.

I would imagine that is a discussion we could undertake with those industries and see whether there might be a need. Ms. Friesen: Again, I think it comes back to knowing the impact of culture and cultural activities on the Manitoba econom y. It seems to me, one step might be to know how much federal money is coming in; another step might be to know what the econom ic impact of the development of cultural attractions, festivals, cultural industries on Manitoba are. I wonder what studies the department has carried out that would give us those kinds of numbers. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I guess we have not under taken a lot of study into development when in fact, at this point in time in our economic situation, I do not know realistically whether there would be funds there for more development. There has not been a lot of study done, and that is something that needs maybe to be looked at for future. At this point in time, we have not done a lot of study. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Depu ty Chairperson, what research has the department done? We are looking here at a

section that is providing executive leader ship in policy di rec tion. Do I really understand you that you have not done any research into audience, othe r than what has been provided by the national study, and second of all, into the economic impact, and thirdly, into the training elements? Mrs. Mitchelson: I guess it is usually Tourism that does major economic impact studies, but we do know from our analysis that our cultural industries do generate a lot of revenue for our pro vince.

We do know that some of the major venues that we bring into the pro vince, like les Miz, and I know that there was some criticism in the memb er's opening statement about les Miz coming, but in fact there is an economic impact, a very substantial one, that is created when we are able to bring that kind of a theatre to our provi nce, so we do know what certain things do to generate econ omic activity. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. Could I ask those honourable members wanting to put their comments on the record to do so from the table and not from their chairs next to the wall. Ms.

Friesen: My criticism was not of les Miz as a producti on, my criticism was of its role in Manitoba's cultural life, that it was some thing which was brought from outside which used very few Manitoba actors. * (21 1 0) Much of the money that was paid by Manitobans went outside the pro vince, as the member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) I think was trying to put on the record. If it did expand audiences in Manitoba for particular kinds of historical musicals, it presumably expanded it at the rate of people who could afford to pay $80 a seat.

If that is the minister's strategy, then that presumably was achieved by that, but that was not the impression I had of the long-term history of this department, nor indeed necessarily what the DeFehr Report was recommending. I wanted to follow up on my questions on the economic impact of the arts in Manitoba. The minister said that she thought the Department of To urism would have done those studies. Could I put that more specifically? Are there such studies? If there are, presumably the Minister of Culture would have access to them and know of their existence. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, we do have studies which indicate that in the film area that in di rect reve nue 40 pe rce nt comes back immediately in the way of taxes. We are only just now beginning to use the computer-based tools to

4675 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA June 15 , 19 92 project investment return, like the dinosaur exhibit at the museum. That is one that we are presently looking at through computerized equipment, so we are just starting into that area. Ms. Friesen: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I think one of the common arguments for cultural industries is in fact that a good proportion-! do not know whether it is 40 percent immediately, or what is meant by immediately, and whether that in fact comes into Manitoba, or whether it goes to a particular local area, if you can actually track that, but the standard arguments that are given are usually that they are labour intensive and that 60 percent of their funds are in fact expended in wages which are spent here.

I think the other issue I was trying to get at, with the emphasis in my question about two questions earlier, on training in the use of Workforce 2000 monies, was that in fact trained people in the arts, just as trained and skilled people in any area, have the opportunity to attract Industries here. People are going to come to where the skilled work force is.

So it was not a question, as the minister interpreted it, of whether there is a shortage in these kinds of skills, it is whether in fact Manitoba is prepared to make the strategic economic decision of saying, yes, not only truck driving, not only whatever else Workforce 2000 money is spent on-1 have forg ott en the other industries at the momen t-but certainly there is a good chunk of it that is going into the training of people in the transport industry.

If Manitoba made the strategic economic decision to say that cultural industries or certain types of cultural activities were to be focused here, then in fact you do go out for the money, you do train the people, and you create the pool of trained labour that brings people to the provi nce. That is certainly what has happened in the British Columbia film industry. It is not just the scenery, although that is part of it, and the climate, but it is also the training that they have done, particularly in their comm unity colleges, in this area.

So again, can I put the question to the minister: What is the pote ntial of the Workforce 2000 money of the proposed labour force development boards and the role that they are going to have in the training of people in Manitoba at the post-secondary level? Does the minister have any strategy, any economic arts plan for trai ning that would fit into a broader economic plan for Manitoba? Mrs.

Mitchelson: As early as tomorrow, we are going to meet with the Credo group to look at the possibility or the feasibility of doing a series here in Manitoba and, in fact, if that seems like an option that could be pursued, fol lowing out of that would be the need for training opportu nities if that should need to happen in order to make that series successful. So that is one way that we can be attempting to utilize or tap into resource s. Ms.

Friesen: I want to move on then, I am still thinking in the context of policy strategies for this department, if the minister could suggest what the strategy for Manitoba arts, the Department of Culture in Manitoba, is for native arts in Manitoba. Is there a strategic plan? Mrs. Mitchelson: If we are looking at a strategic plan as such, I guess all of our arts program s that have been developed for new progra ms will deal with all Manitobans. We will be worki ng with all com munities to ensure that the programs can be utilized to meet the needs of those commun ities.

I guess I question, and maybe the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) could elaborate a little bit on exactly what she means, because I think that through our Arts Branch we attempt to deal with communi ty arts right throughout the pro vince. All of the prog rams that are being put into place will in fact deal with local initiative and local needs, and grant dollars will follow those initiatives. Ms. Friesen: In a sense that is an answer: No, there is not a specific native art strategy in Manitoba.

I am sure the minister is aware that the most recent federal report suggests that Canadians should develop native art strategies. Obviou sly on one level it is speaking to the federal gov ernment, but I am also asking, given the particular demographics of Manitoba, the numbers are as familiar to the minister as I am sure they are to everybody, that one in 25 young people in Manitoba is going to be aboriginal in this decade-is there a particular strategy? Many of them are poo r. Many of them are migrants in the sense of moving back and forth between the city and the reserves.

Is there a particular aboriginal strategy of this department for accessibility and participation in the arts? Does the minister consider that this is a priority in the way in which the federal report suggested it was? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I think that our focus through my department on the native communi ty is focused very specifically on quality of life, and that would be heritage. We do have the

June 15 , 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4676 Oral Histories Program that was restructured and relooked at, because I think the intent of the program had been to support native communi ty and native oral history, and it had tended to focus away from that, and we have brought that focus back again. The Public Libraries Advisory Board, of course , has been looking at how we can enhance library deliv er y to re mo te com mu nities and rural communities. That is another quality of life issue. *

(2120) The other area that we have placed a major focus on, of cour se, is the Northern Recreation Director Pilot Pro ject that has trained recreation directors to go back into their comm unities. When we talk recreation, I think that probably, at the local level, it includes much of the commu nity arts. Those are the areas where most of our energies have been foc used. We do have a strategy and are developing areas through our Library's Report that we are expecting to be tabled fairly soon. It will look at what the needs are, and we will try to direct our energies in pro viding enhanced services.

As I said, 26 recreation directors who will be hired to go back into their communi ties in northern and remote Manitoba will hope fully enhance the quality of life that some of those residents should come to expect. Ms. Friesen: I think the recreation directors are certainly a beginning, but I was speaking from the particular basis of the arts and from a Federal Arts Report, Art is not a Given, which devoted one considerable

section to the need for a native strategy looking not just in the recreational sense, as the minister is suggesting, but also in the broader sense of the need for pro fessional training and for the creation of arts support organizations that may be on a regional basis perhaps to begin with. What needs does the minister see that should be addressed, and what is the strategy for getting there? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. De puty Chai rperson, through our publishing progr am, we provide support to publish.

We have many books, and I have seen examples through our publishing program s of the books that have been published about native-1 suppose it is literature, children's story books and history of the north and our native community. A lot of books have been published in Manitoba that deal with our native community. Prairie Theatre Exchange had a native theatre company that-of course, we subsidize Prairie Theatre Exchange's rent in order for them to facilitate worki ng with that theatre com pany. So there are some things happening. Ms.

Friesen: What I sense is happening then is fundin g in some instances through existing organizati ons, an emphasis upon recreation, and have I anything beyond that? I mean, what does the minister see as the gaps in those progr ams? Mrs. Mitchelson: There have not been any massive studies undertaken, not only not by this administration, but by another administration of the past, on what services might be available and what gaps there might be. We have not had any gaps specifically addressed or presented to us.

I think that we look at things on a need basis, and in the areas that we have developed and on the recreation side of things, certainly we recognized a need. We heard there was a need by meeting with northern and remote communities. That was a program that was put in place to attempt to address that need. As we established the Public Libraries Advisory Board , we knew that there was a need for looking at ways of trying to get books and libraries established or acces sible to some of those communities.

I believe that report will indicate that there is a need for new initiatives that we will have to look at addressing in the future. As I indicated, we refocused the Oral History Grants Program because it was focu sing away from what we perceived was a need within the community to preserve the heritage. Those are things that have happened over the last four years, and I guess we will continue to look at areas where there seems to be a need or needs to have some refoc using done of some of the things that we are doing presently. Ms. Friesen: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I wanted to ask about one other element of the DeFehr Report which I had assumed would be in accord with the minister's and this gove rnment's philosophy, which was the setting aside of monies for the development of private sponsorsh ip. I do not remember what number it was, but it was one of the basic recommendations. I can look it up if the minister wants. I wonder if that has happened, if you are planning for it to happen. Yes, it is on funding, sorry-it is under funding. It is under the

summary of recom mendations that a portion-and it is No. 7-of the increased funding be

4677 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 15 , 19 92 utilized to encourage private sector support and investment in the arts. I had assumed that would be one of the early ones that the gove rnment would act upon, and I am wondering what its fate has been. Mrs. Mitchelson: This is under sum mary of recomme ndations that talks about funding. I guess the first funding recommendation was to increase funding to the arts to . 7 percent of total expenditures and, as a result of an increase in funding, that some of that increase be utilized to encourage private sector support and investment in the arts.

I will have to say that since the DeFehr Report has come out, although we have found some areas that we have had the ability to increase funding, there has not been major leaps and bounds in funding support for the arts. It is a reality today. We found money for capital increase. We found money for cultural industries, but there has not been any major increase. I suppose that in the context of better times and more money, if there should become more money available for the arts, that that might be one of the areas that we would look at.

But to date, since the DeFehr Report has com e out, there has not been, and I dare say, we probably will not see over the next year or so, anyway, any major additional commitments in many, many areas of gov ernment, probably including the arts. Ms. Friesen: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I wanted to use that suggestion as a way of perhaps moving the discussion again to the research and strategic goals of this department, because one of the things that I would think that a policy and planning area of a Department of Culture would want to know is what the sort of five-year rolling support is from the private sector for parts of the arts in Manitoba. The minister suggested that perhaps funding has been decreasing. Are there numbers on that? Is there some research in the Manitoba context? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I do not think I had indicated that funding was decreasing. Government funding? Ms. Friesen: No, private funding. I thought that was what you said. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson , you know, there have not been any studies that have been done as such, but we do know, we all know, that it is toug her to get private dollars today than it has been in the past, and that is because everyone is suffering economically, so times are to ugher and people are having to find very innovative ways of trying to raise revenue.

I think that goes right across the board , and the arts are not excluded in any way from that. * (21 30) When we go back to strategic planning and that kind of thing, I guess there are only so many things that we can expect a department or a branch of a department to undertake in any one year. You know, as a result of the DeFehr Report and the recommendations, we have established an Arts Branch, and we have reviewed many of the programs that were in place for many, many years in gove rnment without a change. We have developed, as a result of that, four new program s.

When you look at the requirements that go into sort of a major unde rtaking of ov erhauling a department and making some changes based on what the communi ty believes are the directions we should be going, we can only expect a gov ernment department, or as I said a branch of a department, to undertake so many things. We have made some major changes over the last year which I think will be well received by the arts commu nity, and we will proceed along the way and make ot her changes as time permits and as financial resources permit. Ms. Friesen: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, what I am trying get at is the planning role of the department in the arts in Manitoba.

There are some things that the art gallery can do, there are some things that the museum can do, there are some things that the Popular Theatre Alliance can do, but in terms of looking at the econom ic impact of the arts in Manitoba, in terms of developing stra teg ic plans for particular comm unities, of having some go als, in terms of having some research on what the level of corporate or private sponsorship is in Manitoba and how that has been changing over the last few years, it seems to me that this is one of the planning roles which, in the absence of a public policy institute in Manitoba, and we do not have a public policy institute in Manitoba in the way that some provinces do, that this role falls to gov ernment departments.

Again, if I can speak from the context of a gov ernment which is very much a free-enterpri se, market-oriented gov ernment, there are some things which the market can do. There are some things which the market does well. It does not necessarily do it equitably, but it does distribute some things.

June 15 , 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4678 There are some things which the market does not do, and one of them is the kind of research that I have been talking about and the kind of strategic planning that I have been suggesting. So I am looking for some theoretical , some philosophical reflections from the minister on what she sees as the role of this particular

section of the department. Now I agree it cannot all be done in one year. In fact, the DeFehr Report did not suggestanyof these prop osals. It did have some propo sals which would feed into a strategic or overall plan for certain parts of the arts or for certain research into the arts in Manitoba. So that is really what I am looking for. What I am hearing from the minister, and maybe she can respond to this, that this particular

section of the department does not conduct research and does not plan in the long term. It has conducted a review, and it has restructured one or two of its granting progr ams in the last year. Now am I being unfair to the department? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, when you look at funding for the arts, we fund and plan and do progr amming and analysis for the co mmunity arts. We have the Manitoba Arts Counci l, in fact, that deals with the major institutions and their funding.

Of course, we have conti nual dialogue with the Manitoba Arts Counci l, but we also do meet with most of the majors and many of the arts groups on a yearly basis and look at their plans. It is really the Arts Council that does deal with it, and we do not set plans in place. I mean each major institution or most cultural organizations do have a board of directors that looks at where they are going to go.

Some of them are better prepared and do long-range planning and look at what they are going to attempt to accomplish over several years, but in fact we do not do that planning for them and we do not direct them in what they do. The Arts Council, when it comes to funding those organizati ons, deals with their plans and with their proposed budgets, and tries to allocate dollars to them in order to help them achieve their goals within the budget allocation that they have to deal with, just as we deal with our clients who apply directly to our department for funding.

One of the reasons that we have restructured the Arts Branch and changed some of the progr amming was that the progr amming that was there and the grants that were in place were regressive. In fact, they were more deficit structured then, and they were also pro ject-by- project grants, so that in fact organizations could not do any long-range planning. All they could do was apply for maybe 10 or 15 different grants per year, and they had to wait and have an analysis done and receive their project grant based on ad hoc planning.

What we indicated to them, and one of the reasons we changed some of the program s, is in fact that we then would allow organizations to do some long-range planning to look at up front what they felt they would need for a year. At the end of the year, we would do an analysis, and if they had not met some of their objectives and their go als, then we would have to take a look at their funding for the next year.

As long as they met expectations, we felt that it was better to provide one grant for a year rather than them spending staff time and energy applying and filling out grant applications and having our staff analyze 15 or 16 different small grant applications per year. We felt that it would be more productive for them to do some long-range planning and receive a grant and be accountable for the money they received at the end of the year, or find that their grant might be in jeopardy the next year.

Those are the kinds of things that we do, but we do not do long-range planning for every organization that we give funding to. Ms. Friesen: I was not suggesting that the minister or the department dictate to organizations the kind of plans that they have. What I was suggesting was that only the department really has the capabilities to do the econom ic research and the basic audience research across Manitoba that can be used by many different types of organiza tions.

The second point the minister raised about long-term planning for individual organizations, H the new programs do fulfill that need, then I think everybody would be very pleased with that. There has certainly been a long-term pressure for longer -range funding within most cultural and educational associa tions. I think the ot her side of that is that when all of the planning, or at least all of the progr amming is based upon existing groups, then there is a bias obviously in the way in which cultural funds and cultural accessibility is distributed to Manitobans.

Because the groups which are obviously longer existing, better funded, come forward with the more elaborate

4679 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA June 15 , 19 92 proposals are the ones which are going to get the bulk of the public monies. So the opportu nities for innova tion, et cete ra, for newer groups, for wider accessibility, I think in some cases and in som e areas have to be stimulated. • (21 40) It is when you have the research that looks at audiences, which looks at where the gaps are, which looks at the needs which are not being met and are not being represented by any group, that the department has a role to play. It is that kind of strategic planning that I am looking for from the minister. Mrs.

Mitchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, if I can just indi cate that we are still on our Cultural Resources branch. Yes, I guess we are still on the deputy's of fice. We have not gone through Financial and Administrative Services, Human Resource Se rvi ces , or the Manitoba Fil m Classification Board before we get into all of ou r grants to cultural organiz ations and Arts Branch and that kind of thing, so I would like to know whether we could refocus a little bit and get on track. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I share the minister's concem to move on.

We do not have as much time perhaps for Culture as in other years, but I did want to emphasize this line, the planning which applies to all ofthe other departmental activities, and it would be a shame to pass this line without talking about the deputy minister's salary. Mrs. Mitchelson: Okay. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I raised this in Urban Affairs and actually I do not know if I made a reference to this particular department or not in there, but I am puzzled. I mean there is the obvious, I think, comment that should be made in every department is that managerial salaries have gone up.

They have gone up considerably at a time when members of the MGEA have taken a pay freeze, and so I think that should not pass without notice . Second of all, I am curious about the way in which salaries and levels are distributed in the Manitoba Civil Service, for example, the Department of Urban Affairs where the deputy minister supervises 14 peopl e, and that is tot al. That is 14, com pared to this department where the deputy min ister is supervising, how many? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson , around 350 or so staff. Ms.

Friesen: Or 1, 800 in Family Services, and yet, as I understand it, the deputy ministers are all at the same level in salary. Mrs. Mitchelson: No. Ms. Friesen: Well, this is the same as Urban Affairs. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson , there are three different levels of deputy ministers. I think the Department of Culture fits in the middle level, the second level, where it is not Family Services or Health or Education. I guess I do not know what level it is called, but the second level, and there is a fair amount of respons ibility.

I must say that we have a wide variety of issues and areas that we as a department have to deal with and probably touch the lives of every Manitoban in different ways. We are very diverse, and there are a lot of issues, a lot of different branches that we have responsibi lity for. Ms. Friesen: I raised it because it seems very different from the federal Civil Service. Maybe this is an issue of the Civil Service Comm ission more than this particular department, and that might be the more appropriate place to raise it.

I know that in the federal Civil Service the size of the department and the number of people supervised come into much greater play than they seem to do in Manitoba. There seems to be a huge difference between a department of 14 people and a department of 350 people and yet the same salary for the deputy minister. Mrs. Mitchelson: I do not have respo nsibility for a deputy minister in any other department. I do know that we are within the second level, and that is ali i can say.

It may be that the deputy in another department may have been in the position for a longer period of time and is at a higher classification, but I cannot explain that. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: A five-mi nute recess before we get into further questions? Does the comm ittee agree? Agreed, so recess for five minutes. • •• The comm ittee took recess at 9:46 After Recess The committee resumed at 9:52

June 15 , 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4680 Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. When the committee recess ed, we were dealing with item 1. (

b) Executive Support:

(1) Salaries $327,600. Mr. Lamoureux: I have a number of questions that I want to ask at this particular line because this is the line in which we have seen policy decisions that have been made by this ministe r, as I would say, going in the wrong directi on. This is one of a couple of areas that I want to point out here where we have seen the government moving backward in regard both to the Heritage Federation and also to the MIC. Mr.

Deputy Chairperson , I wanted to start off by going over what has actually occurred with the Heritage Federation and how the policy decision was made, and I would suggest to you, made in the most inappropriate fash ion. One could go back to a while back where we have seen the Manitoba Heritage Federa tion bring forward or at least attempt to meet with the minister and the minister's staff in regard to what was going on with the Heritage Federa tion. On the day that the budget itseH was being brought down- Point of Order Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I think that, when we are dealing with my Estimates, I would like to go in somewhat of an orderly fash ion, and we are dealing right now with Executive Support and we are dealing with the salaries and expend itures and the deputy minister's offi ce. That is his office- An Honourable Member: 14 -1 B? Mrs. Mitchelson: 14 -1 B Executive Support. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: It is 1. (

b) Executive Support. Mrs. Mitchelson: Yes. Mr. Deputy Chairpers on, we have already been into Culture and the Arts Branch, which is down in 14 -2B and C. I would prefer if we went in a bit more orderly fashion and when we get into Heritage and Recreation, I would rather go a little bit line by line than in fact just hopping all over the place. I have presently at the table sitting with me my deputy minister. I do not have any other support staff. I think when we get into the areas of Historic Resources, Recreation and that kind of thing, I would like to have the staff available here at the table.

So if we could pass the deputy minister's office and go into finance and adminis tration and then into each of the different areas, I would prefer to work in that fa shion. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the minister might prefer to work in that fas hion, but I woul d read to her in terms of the Activity Identification from the deputy minister where it says: provides advice to the minister and executive direction and guidance to the department in the dev elopment and management of its policies and programs.

To say that the question, or to at least imply that the questi on is out of order is to say that the minister acted alone and did not receive any advice from her deputy minister in respect to the policy decision that saw the Manitoba Heritage Federation lose its funding authority. I do not believe that is the case , and I do not think that the minister would want to leave it on the record that in fact her deputy minister had nothing to do with the decision made by the minister to withdraw that funding. I see she wants to respond to that. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please.

At this time, I would like to advise the honourable members that the minister did not have a point of order. It was a dispute over the facts, so that was not a point of order. *** Mr. Dep uty Chair person: The honourable minister to reply to the honourable member for Inkster's statement. •

(2200) Mrs. Mitchelson: I guess then, if I might just seek some clarifica tion, are you indicating that once we pass this line, 1. (

b) Executive Support, that we are going to pass the departmental Estimates period? Mr. Lamoureux: At the beginning of my remarks, in fact that is what I had suggested that we might want to consider doing, but then it was decided that we would go line by line. I still leave that open. I do not mind to ask questions at this particular line, and if the minister wants additional staff to come forward when we deal with another line, then fine. Otherwise, we will just continue going line by line as the minister had originally indicated. Mrs.

Mitc helson: I have staff from His toric Resources here; I have staff from Multiculturalism; I have staff from Citizensh ip; I have staff from the Arts Branch; and I have staff from libraries, from the archives. I guess I would like to at least show a bit

4681 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA June 15 , 19 92 of consideration for the staff that are here and might be here until the wee hours of the evening. If in fact we are going to de al with one area-we have dealt with the Arts Branch to some degree from one of the opposition parties. We should either deal with the Arts and get that done so that in fact that staff can go home and show them a little bit of consideration rather than hopping from the Arts to His toric Resources to Multiculturalism to Citizenship and then back over them all again.

So I would ask fo r some co-operation in that we would like to be able to go through this in an orderly fashion and allow people the opportunity to leave when we have passed their lines. Mr. Lamoureux: Normally, I guess, I should be getting a bit sensitive . It seems the days that I ask questions in Question Period and then the government House leader decides to call that bill during Question Period in order to prevent me from asking questions. Now, Mr.

Deputy Chairperson , I tried to ask a question regarding line by line, and I find that the minister then asked if in fact we would like to dea l with all of them- Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. To try and attempt to bring a little bit of decorum to the committee, I would like to inform members of the comm ittee that the correc t procedure for considering items in the Committee of Supply is line by line. In order to skip ahead or to revert back to lines already pass ed, unanimous consent of the committee is required. Is there consent of the committee to forge ahead and not go line by line?

An Honourable Member: No. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: No? Okay, we are going to go line by line. The honourable member fo r Inkster with his question . Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson , I will then go on to my question . As I was pointing out, the government had made a policy decision with respect to the Heritage Federation, and that policy decision is something that we feel is not in the bes t interests of the province.

What I am going to attempt at doing is to try to get better clarification as to why this government decided to do what they did and take away the granting authority from the Heritage Federation. So to start- Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. Before the minister answers the question , the hour is now 10 p.m. What is the will of the committee? An Honourable Member: Continue. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Carry on. Mr. Lamoureux: I understand that the will was to sit till twelve o'clock this evening. An Honourable Member: No. As long as it- Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. The honourable member for Inkster (Mr.

Lamoureux), continue with his ques tioning. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we will have to revisit what time we are going to be going. I know our recommendation is that we adj ourn at twelve o'clock. Having said that, Mr. Deputy Chairperson , I wanted to go on in respect to what has happened. During the Budget Debate, the president and, I believe, it was the general manager of the Heritage Federation were in the office of the minist er- (Mr. Bob Rose, Acting Deputy Chairperson, in the Chair) Point of Order Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, we had indicated that we were going to go line by line. There are policy implications for every different line. H we are going to hop from policy in every different branch of the department before we go on to discussing any of the is sues, I question whether that is the proper way to handle things. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, this is the second time that the minister has brought it up. I bel ieve the ruling from the Deputy Chairperson prior to you was, the minister did not have a point of order.

I would suggest to you that she still does not have a point of order, that the line of ques tioning is, in fact, in order. We are talking about a major policy change from this government. The deputy minister is responsible for advising the minister with respect to policy. I would ask that I be allowed to proceed to as k my questions on this particular line. Thank you. The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Rose): I believe the minister does have a point of order. I think it was previously agreed by the committee that we would proceed line by line on the Estimates .

We will have to rely on the minister to ind icate in which

June 15 , 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4682 department, in which line, the questions are appropriate, so that it may be indic ated . Mr. Lamoureux: With all due respect, I would have to challenge the ruling of the Chair. The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Rose): Since the hour is after ten o'clock, there can be no challenge of the ruling of the Chair. I would indi cate to-[interjection] The clarification is, you can challenge the Chair, but we will not do any thing about it right now because it is past ten o'clock.

I would further point out that the Chair's ruling was simply what the committee had agreed to earlier on, that we would proceed line by line. The question, I believe, before the committee is whether or not the question is on the line under conside ration. The Chair does not have the ability to make that decision, but if the minister will ind icate when the question is being asked under which line that question would be appropriate, then we will make note of it and have that question considered when we come to that line. Is that agreeable? * (2210 ) Mr. Lamoureux: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson , it is not agreeable, because this is a government policy. This particular line, you know, and it says, right from the deputy minister: that provides advice to the minister and executive direction and guidance to the department in the development and management of its policies and programs. Well, if the minister fee ls that this is not an appropriate time to ask these questions, what she is say ing is that she did not receive any advice from the deputy minister, or is this not the opportunity to get onto the record what advice the minister did in fact receive from the deputy minister?

This is the line that deals with it. With respect, in terms of challenging the Chair, from what I understand now is that you are making refe rence to the point of orde r, and if it was the question in terms of the point of order that we were going line by line, I agree that we were going line by line. What I had challenged the ruling of the Chair was based on that I could not ask that question on that particular line, because I am sure , as the previous chairperson said , that the question was, in fact, in orde r. Hon. Darren Praznlk (Deputy Government House Leader): Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, I would suggest that the appropriate places for any member of this committee when this committee is proceeding line by line-to do otherwise requires the unanimous consent of this committee-is on the appropriate line for that department, or that part of the department, in this case I believe the Heritage Federa tion, to deal with that part of the line, or to raise the matter again in discussions of the minis ter's salary, but to raise it under the deputy minister's salary is most inappropriate.

The advice and dis cussions that take place between senior of ficials and the minis ter is a backdoor way for the member to get back at an issue that he may want to visit. I would suggest he has plenty of opportunity to do it under the appropriate places, the last being the minister's salary. So there is plenty of opportunity for the member to raise the questi on. It certainly expedites the discussion of the Es timates if we carry on line by line in each particular area. Given the size of the issues dealt with by this department, it is most appropriate.

Trying to work in a question under the salary allotment for the deputy minister is to have another free -fal l di scussion that I do no t think accommodates the work of this committee, and I would submit, as the deputy government House leader, that it be appropriate that these matters be discussed under the line for that branch or ultimately under the Minister's Salary. Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I want to point out that the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) has suggested that he has the right to ask the deputy minister about advice that he gives to the ministe r. Mr.

Lamoureux: No. Mr. Fllmon: Read Hansard . That is exactly what you said, and that is not an appropriate question under any circumstances. In fact, that information is not even available under The Freedom of Information Act. You could not apply under The Freedom of Information Act to ask for advice that has been given by a staff member to the minister. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, maybe the Premier feels obligated to come in and jump and defend the mi nister. What I was suggesting-and I would look to the Premier to give some advice on this and see what he has to say with respect to it.

I have sugge sted that the questions regarding the policy of this government with respect to the Heritage Federa tion in taking away the granting authority from the Heritage Federation which was a policy decision. We are currently on

4683 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA June 15 , 19 92 line 14 -1 B of the Estimates, where the deputy mi nister provides advice to the minister and executive direction and guidance to the department in the development and management of policies and programs. Mr. Acting Deputy Chairpers on, to the Premier, I would suggest to you that this is in fact the line in which, the most appropriate line, to ask, because one would have assu med that in fact the minister would have sought some advice from the deputy ministe r.

I am not expecting, nor would I expect, the deputy minister to answer the question direct unless the minister felt that she could not do it and asked for leave to allow the deputy minister to do it. If that is the case , we would grant the leave but, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I would suggest to you that in fact this is the right and the best time to ask these particular questions because we are dealing with substantial policy changes of this government. If this is not the line, then I would suggest to you, where is the line, the most ideal line?

The government might suggest that it is the Heritage Fed eration line toward the end of the Estimates. Yes, I will ask some specific questions once we get to that line, but the general policy questions, the general policies in respect to what role the ministerial staff, the executive support staff had in her making this decision, this is the opportunity, this is the line in which we ask the questions. Mr_ Fllmon: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperso n, I just want to ensur e that the member for Inkster understands that I have no need to enter into the de bate to defen d the min ister agai nst his endeavours.

The mi nis ter is very capable of handling any initiative that he might put forward . Mr. Acting Deputy Chairpers on, on the other hand, I am here to try and ensure that the member for Inkster understands that it is absolutely and totally inappropriate for him to ask a question as to advice given by staff on policy issues. That is not permitted in this committee situation or even under a Freedom of Information application. He would be turned down by the courts, he would be turned down by the Ombudsman, and he would be turned down flat under any initiative.

The question that he is asking is a question of the policy of this gove rnm ent. The minis ter is respo nsible for the policy of this government not her staff. Policy is decided by ministers and cabinet. He has the opportunity under the line of the Heritage Federation and then, after that if he is dissatisfied with that information, to ask under the Minister's Salary. Those are the appropriate areas. He has two opportunities, and if he does anything else he is just showing, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, that he is not interested in anything factual with respect to these Estimates.

He is only interested in making mischief at this committee, and if that is the case , then we are fine, we are able to handle his mischief, but we will ensure that the public knows that that is the higher calling of the Liberal Party in this Legislature. The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Rose): Orde r, please . I do not know how long you want to carry on this discussion . I believe the main purpose of the honour able member for Ink ster (Mr. Lamoureux) is to seek answers to his questions.

I was pleased to hear that he indi cated that he would have the min ister tell him which lin e was appropriate, which is what I suggested a while ago. So if that is agreeable with the committee, we will carry on line by line. If the question is, in the opinion of the minis ter, not appropriate for that line she will indica te for which line it is appropriate, and that question will be asked at that time. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson , I suggested that there are good numbers of questions that I have with respect to the Heritage Federa tion, some specific questions that I will be saving until once we get on to that particular line. We are talking about the government policy. I want to know, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, from the ministe r, what is the government policy and that is what I have been asking for. I think the Premier would have been best to have been around for the full evening where he would have heard questions from the member for Wolseley (Ms.

Friesen) and would have been appalled by the questions that she was asking. But the government is sensitive to who is asking the questions , and I find that unfortunate. *** The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Rose): Order, please . Does the honourable member for Inkster wish to put a question on line 1 .(

b) Executive Support (1 ) Salaries?

June 15 , 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4684 Mr. Lamoureux : Yes, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson , I do. I want to start off by saying that once again-and I hope I do not get interrupted again-that the government made a policy decision. The policy decision was to take away the funding authority from the Manitoba Heritage Federa tion. I want to know why it is the government made that policy decision. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, the appropriate line fo r us to be discussing that issue , because it is a government policy decision affecting the Manitoba Heritage Federa tion, would be under 7 .(m), and I will answer that question fully and completely when we get to that line. Mr. Lamoureux: The mi nister can choose to answer whatever questions she likes, and I will suggest to you that if she finds that this is not an appropriate time to answer this question , I will continue to ask the ques tions.

If she chooses not to answer the questions, that is fine, but at least the record will show very clearly that the government cannot support their d ecision to take away the multicultural grants. I would ask, and will start off by going over, in fact, what did take place, and then we will end it off by a ques tion. Once again, the minister can do whatever she likes, if she wants to answer it, or feels that she does not want to answer it and save the questi on, or take it as notice until we get to that particular line. I am going to start off then from the beginning where we had the Manitoba budget presented.

While that Manitoba budget was being presented, the deputy ·m inister had met with the executive director, I believe, along with the president of the Manitoba Heritage Federation. At that time, they were given a letter that indic ated to them that they were no longer going to be responsible for the funding allocation for heritage groups. While they were doing that, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson , we were inside the Chamber list ening to the government budget being proposed.

I have been led to believe, and the minister or no one else has given me anything else to believe contrary to that, that the Heritage Federation had absolut ely no idea in terms of what the government's intentions were, that in fact they had on numerous occasions attempted to meet with the minist er. I would ask the minister if she met with any members of the Heritage Federation with respect to taking the funding authority away? Mrs. Mitchelson: When we get to line 7 .(

m) of the Estimates, I will answer that question. The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Rose): Item 1. (

b) Executive Support: (1 ) Salaries. *

(2220) Mr. Lamoureux: I have an idea what the minister would have said, and I think it would have been something to the effect of "no." Now, I would suggest to you and I say to those individuals that the minister, if in fact that is the case, that the minister did- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Rose): Order, please. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, it really and truly is a shame in terms of what the committee is turning into this evening because the minister is refu sing to answe r questions.

Out of respect for the committee and the procedures inside this Chamber, I will accept that the minister does not have the courage to answer these ques tions. I find that it is complete absolute nonsense that she chooses to deal with this issue in such a poor way. I am going to move on to another area, and I only hope that the minister will at least find this an area in which it is an appropriate time to ask some questi ons. This is with respect to what is happening with the multicultural community. This minister has made a number of commitments to the multicultural com mu nity over the last year.

One of the commitments that she has made was just last week, as early as last week, and that was to bring forward a multicultural act. The government had indic ated in the throne speech that in fact they were going to be bringing in a multicultural act. I would ask the ministe r, when did the minister actually have the multicultural act complete? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairpers on, I would have to ask ad vice from my staff who are not at the table with me right now on the exact date that the bill was drafted and transla ted . I cannot give you that exact date until I have some support staff .

That could be very easily discussed with my staff at the table under Multiculturalism which is 5. Mr. Lamoureux: I would ask the mi nister, with respect to what has been included in the act itself, she ha s decided to in clu de the Manit oba

4685 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA June 15 , 19 92 Multicultural Grants Advisory Council, and I would ask her why she has done that. Mrs.Mitchelson: Things do not seem to be sinking in in the mind of the member for Inkste r terribly well, and it may be the late hour. Nonetheless, I suppose if he wants to be disrespectful to the staff who have been sitting here for a few hours and will continue to sit for a few hours while we discuss the Estimates, I will attempt to hop all over the place and answer questions.

I do not know how many years the member for Inkster has been a member of this Legislature, but-{inte�ection] Not many more, that is right. Maybe some day he will learn the proces s. I have indicated in the House-and if the member for Inkster had taken the time to read my opening remarks, I think he would recognize and realize that there was broad consultation done throughout the comm unity. I met with all of the um brella organizations that represent multiculturalism and I met with individuals.

The consensus from those meetings was that in fact the structures that had been put in place by government should be included in the act and MGAC was one of those . Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, it interested me in the sense that when the MIC Act was first introduced, I understand that the then opposition , the Conservative opposition, opposed the act and felt that in fact you should not put into legislation the granting authority, or at least the minister felt that granting authority should not be put into legislation for MIC.

I am wondering what benefit does she see by having MGAC in the legislation. What is the purpose of having it in the legislation? Mrs. Mitchelson: I was not around , as was the member for Inkste r, when the Manitoba Intercultural Council Act was first introduced and passed in the Legisla ture. Their man date under leg islation initially was not-they had no granting authority, and I think that was added at some point in time later down the road . It was not at the initial introduction and passage of the Manitoba Intercultural Council Act. There was no granting authority.

It was subsequently amended to allow the Manitoba Intercultural Council to distribute grants. The reason for putting the Multicultural Grants Advisory Council into the legislation is in fact that they are a vehicle that does distri bute grants to the community. Mr.

Lamoureux: I am wondering what it is, why would something of that nature, given I am sure the minister's being fully aware that there would be opposition to having it put into legislation, why there was a need to have it in a multicultural act, when in fact she has the board currently, her board, and there really, I would suggest to you, is virtually no support whatsoever to have a Manitoba Grants Advisory Council in the legislation.

I have not run across anyone that has indi cated to me, and I am interested in knowing where the minister came up with the idea that having MGAC in the multicultural act was an idea worth pursu ing. Mrs. Mitchelson: I think it is more a commitment to the multicultural community that in fact there will be grants distribu ted to them. I know we went through a little bit of a fiasco last year during the Estimates process , when the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) moved a motion to remove a grant funding to the multicultural community.

I guess this is a way of showing a comm itment to the multicultural community that in fact there will be a body that does distribute grants. I guess, rather than us debating to any great extent the reason why or why not MGAC is in the legislation , I would like to see the legislation go to committee and listen to members of the community put forward their suggestions on what they believe should happe n with multicultural grants. Mr. Guizar Cheema (The Maples): Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I do not want to interfere here in such a good exchange which has been happening for the last half an hour.

Can the minister tell me in just two or three words what this bill is going to do to somebody, a worker or somebody who has faced racis m, somebody who is seeking a job for equal opportunity? What is this bill going to achieve? Can you tell me? It looks very good. I mean who will oppose a multicultural act? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairpers on, we have ind icated that this is a piece of legislation which puts in place an advocate within government for mul ticulturalism and that is the min ister resp onsible. It talks about the policy statement, which we introduced two years ago.

I think there was broad support within the commun ity for that policy statement, and the commitment we made at that time was that we would put that policy into a legislative fram ework.

June 15 , 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4686 *

(2230) We have undertaken that commitment. It is

an act that talks about uniting Manitobans and Manitoba society based on recognizing and supporting our simil arities , not attempting to divide a community. It is a unity type piece of legislation which puts into place our multiculturalism policy. We have human rights legislation that deals with the racism issue . If in fact there are people who believe they are being discrimi nated against, they have a piece of legislation presently that they can use.

We, through government, will put into place policies and programs and projects, and support projects that will deal with antiracism initiatives, but in fact we have a piece of legislation already that does deal with racism. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I know the minister has attended many meetings and the Premier (Mr. Filmon) has attended many meetings, and they have shown a sort of good will. I am not denying that, but I am simply asking how an appointed committee can do a better job than the elected committee? Can you tell me in principle?

I mean how will MIC not be able to do the job, the grants committee can do it? How can he justify that? Mrs. Mitchelson: It was dete rmined a couple of years ago, through the Lotteries needs ass essment that was done and an external consultant, that there should be another structure that distributed grants to the community. We set up the Multicultural Grants Advisory Council.

I have not heard complaints that it has not been working well, and I have asked members of both opposition parties and members of the community, if they have specifics or incidents where people have been mistr eated under the process in any way or have not received their grants, that I would investigate those kinds of situations. We have an arm's-length body that is completely volunteer.

They do not receive any remuneration for the time that they put in, and I think you might tend to agree that there are people on the Multicultural Grants Advisory Council who are very active ly involved in their com muni ty, in organizations and put in many, many hours serving the com munity that they represent and the multicultural community at large.

So I believe it has worked well, but I certainly am open to suggestion if in fact there are instances where there are communities or individuals that feel they have not been treated well, because I would like to know that kind of thing and make changes if it was necessary. Mr. Cheema: I have a personal belief that anything that the government does right, then we should say, righ t. Now , you have the chance, the first government in this country, to bring in a multicultural act, in fact. Why do you do it half right? I mean, when you can improve, why not?

I think you should have waited for the report that is investigating the role of MIC and then bring in a full act,

an act which will give a good meaning. Why do something which two years from now may not be able to function at all? How can you guarantee every day that you are the best minister poss ible? What is going to happen in two years time if somebody else will come in? He or she may not be able, as you are, if we suppose that is the way. Then how are we going to ensure that the people who are appointed by you-they are going to be turfed out. Somebody else is going to come in who is again appointed , and they are going to compete against the elected people.

This bill is virtually dividing ethnic communities-! am telling you very frankly-because any individual who is appointed by you is not going to speak against you. Any person who is elected by the ethnic organization, they are not going to speak against you. Why would they? They want to improve their livelihood. They want to improve what you intend to improve. But this act does not go far enough. It can be improved, and I think it is about time that you did it. I mean, why not take the chance? Why not do what is best for the people of Manitoba?

I am not saying that you have not done your best, but it could be even better than that, because the image which you have left for the last two years-and if you wantto give a real meaning and get your name on for a long time to come, I think it is about time that you should put a real meaning to the multicultural act. I mean, tell me that anybody in downtown who has come two years ago is going to do anything good with this. No, it is not going to improve anything, because people who really need help are never seen in a meeting.

We are not talking about grassroots here; we are talking about the eth nic bosses, the ethnic person alities who can have access to your party, to

4687 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 15 , 19 92 our party and to the NDP party, but if you want to do something good for the people who are not speaki ng, who are afraid to speak, then I think we need to do more than what has been done. That is my major concern, but I must say that you have the opportunity. Let us get it correct the first time. Why do it again in two years time? Mrs. Mitchelson: I have been the Min ister responsi ble for Multiculturalism now for four years, and I have talked to and met with a lot of people within the community. We have made some improve men ts.

We have put in place some programs that have been of extreme benefit to the community, but you know, since I became minister, and even before that, we had a community that was crying out for a piece of legislation. In fact, I have met with and talked to members of the community and, through consulta tion, have come up with a conse nsus in this piece of legislation. The one area that I sensed no consensus at all was in the area of the Manitoba Intercultural Council. A lot of people said to me at the time that in fact the Manitoba Intercultural Council had been in place for 10 years now.

It was set up to serve a certain purpose, and that was to advise government on multicultural issues. It then had the granting function added to it a couple of years later, so it focused on that. Then with the granting function removed , maybe it was time to take a look and refocus, and see what, in fact, amendments should be made to the Manitoba Intercultural Council to str engthen that organ ization. So we have appointed a consultant who will be meeting with many members of the community and listening. I know that some very valid points have been raised here tonight. The member for The Maples (Mr.

Cheema) has ind icated that things should be stre ngthened. This piece of legislation cannot take into account and legis late righ t throughout government. We have a multicultural minister who has a secretariat and some support people there to help and deal with the community. But we cannot put human rights legislation into this piece of legislation. I guess you can say that we can do certain things, and I can say that we cannot.

But I think that the key to all of this is that we listen to the people in the community who will come forward through the public hearing process, at committee st age, for this legislation. We can argue, and I know that I am going to get arguments on the other side of the issue from both opposition parties. I understand that they feel it should be differ ent, there should be other things. But I think it is incumbent upon all of us to listen to what the community has to say. You may believe that you have talked to a broad cross

section of the community, and you may have. I believe that I have too, and I believe that I have a consensus in this piece of legislation. We will agree to disagree , all evening this evening, on this issue. But I am open-minded enough to listen to those who will come forward during the public hearing process . If in fact, there are some suggestions that might change the legislation, I am open to list en. I will make that commitment here tonight. So I know you are going to ask some questions, and you may. Put your thoughts on the record.

I am quite willing to listen to those suggest ions, but I am not going to change my mind here tonight. I am going to listen to what the people have to say. If, in fact, they come forward with some suggestions, I will certainly be open-minded. *

(2240) Mr. Cheema: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, last mo nth, when the minist er made the policy announcement for the immigration creden tials, and we said that that was very, very positive. There was a positive acceptation in the New Canadian community. I think that really raised the hopes that we would have a multicultural act which would really have some meaning. I am just pleading with the minister that she has the chance to do a better job than what she is already doing. I am not saying she has not talked to many individuals. You know, we try.

But if we can have a consensus where we can improve the act, we are not going to take anything away from you, or your government, or your own ideological philosophy. We are telling you that, simply, you have to make sure that there are 20 percent of individu als who could benefit from your act di rectly-from tomorrow, if you have

an act tomorrow, which will have more meaning, more teeth and more real meaning in some of the issues there. The concerns have been raised. But if we are going to say to some of those individuals to come forward and speak in front of the committee, it is impossible. It is next to impossible that people who really need help will be able to come and speak. It is very tough for them to come here and go through all that, understand the whole

June 15 , 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4688 prospect and then come and speak and give their suggesti ons, then you are going to change your mind. If you are not going to be acceptable to our suggestions, where we are not going to take anything away from you, how are you going to accept them from somebody else? So, really, if somebody should review the whole process, in my view, this act will divide the ethnic communities more. It will put them into smaller shells. They will try to fight for the funding. They will try to fight for position on your council, and that will weaken the MIC.

In the long run, this will serve some-1 do not know whose political ideas are coming here, but It is very sad, because I always believed that this government and your government was more serious about the Multicultural Act than anybody else. When I saw the act, I was disappoi nted , and I have expressed my views. I think it is best that the Premier (Mr. Filmon) is here, that he also have a look at the whole act, because he has set a tone during the Meech Lake Accord.

He took the multicultural community with him to Ottawa, and that kind of symbolism that was given in 1988, It was 1990, now 19 92, and we expect the same thing. I am simply asking him to look into this act and see if changes can be made now. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson , I guess some of the comments have been made that there are people that will not come out to committee and speak out, I guess those are som e of the reasons why we have put in place some of the structures that we have.

We have a Community Access Office where people who feel intimidated by walking into the Legisla tive Building-and we all knovv that there are those people who might feel intimidated by the building or by talking, so there is the Community Access Office. We have est ablished a Citizenship branch within the Department of Culture, and we have Immigrant Access Service that we are trying to strengthen and en hance. So there is going to be ongoing programming, and a piece of multicultural legislation does not mean the beginning of the end.

We are going to have to continue on forever to look at the needs of the community. Communities' needs do change. There are some communities that 1 0 years ago were extremely unsophistic ated and today have become more sophisticated and are able to access government programs and know how to access them a little bit better than they did, but then we have new waves of immigration.

We have new communities coming with different needs , so we are going to have to be continually evolving and continually changing and continually trying to address those needs, and that is going to be through policy and programming and project grants within the community. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I have just a final comment. Giving multicultural grants to any specific community is not going to correct the problem, and you know It, because giving funds is not going to improve the livelihood of whole communities.

It may give some ethnic individuals some high profile within government, but is that going to deliver what is meant to be? That can only be deliv ered if you have a law which will have real meaning, give it some educational component to teach about racism in the schools, in the workplace. Many others things can be done. Can the minister even give me the names of four or five individuals whom she thinks have benefited for the last four years from their policy, other than the political appointees? I mean, just four or five names of anybody that has benefited because of this multicultural policy? Mrs.

Mitchelson: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I am not going to single out any one individual, and he may want me to put names on the record of people that, you know, have benefited or not benefited. I think that- Mr. Cheema: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I will rephrase my question.

It may not have been the right language, but what I am simp ly asking is, can the minister tell me if any individual who has suff ered racism, a problem at the workplace, in schools or in other places, in government communication or in getting services in the immigration department or Immigrant Access Service, is there any individual who has really benefited from all of these programs? They can only achieve benefit if you have real meaning to this law. That is what I am sa ying. I am not accusi ng the government.

I am simply telling them they can do a better job than what they are doing right now, and it can be improved if you have a good law. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairpers on, I have always, always said that you cannot legislate the way people feel about each other. What it has to be is an educati onal process, and we have in fact

4689 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 15 , 19 92 put in place an antiracism co-ordinator within the Citizenship branch of our government. That is a new initiative that has just been undertaken, and that person spent two years extensively working with the Manitoba Federation of Labour developing modules, and we have pi

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-3-86b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 3rd hansardpdf 86b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	753e2d4f71f918d87bfb8ff17cf42c731b3b5b2d

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