Volume XL Friday Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Fourth Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard) Speaker: Honourable P.]. McNicholas Number 53 10 June 1988

The House met at 10:00 a.m . MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! Statements by Ministers MR. BRETT : Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKLR: The han . the Minister of tJ!unicipal Affairs . MR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, I would inf or1n th ·i. s han. liou s e like to loday thc1 L Municipal s p~~ cia l. totalling of Wind sol~. the Department of nffairs has approved operating grants $946,008 for the town SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BRETT: If I were playing politics, Mr. Speaker, I would have said $1 milJ.ion, because it is only a fE!W dollars short of $1 million .

These funds will be dispersed during thE! municipal calendar years of 1988, ($186,367), 1989 ($178,073), 1990 ($190,169), 1991 ($185,501), and 1992 ($205,898). These funds arE! to assist thE! municipality in meeting the projected opE!rating deficits of the counci.l dur·tng t.:hclL f.i.ve Y~'!ar period, resulting from the provision of basic municipal services to the residents. Mr.

Speaker, these special operating grants arc to be paid in addition to the grants and subsidies already being provided to the municipality at the present time, with provision for the payment of these amounts to be L28 53 June 10, 1988 Vol XL made in the annual estimates of the Municipal Affairs government fiscal to 1993. current account DE!piH'trne n t of in the five years from 1989 r~r. Speake:~r, my department feels that the necessary funding for the town of Windsor is important because of the financial condiU.on lArith r·E:~specl:: to thE:~ ope:H'at:ing deficit of the municipaJ.ity. Mr.

Speaker, it has taken somE• t i.me to ai~i~Jvc- at theSE! fi.gurE!S. They were not pulled out of a hat. There have been a lot of meetings and planning wj.t.h thE! tOLLJI1 or ~Hndsor•, and J-1:-. I.1.JaS only after a lot of planning and a J.ot or l'llt~E!t·ings thai: Lue d-i.d iH'r'"iV~~ at these figures . We asked the town certain things in this money, and I of Windsor to do order to get wouJ.d like to list some of the things: The town of Windsor has been asked to economize where possible, and attempt to increase it 1 s local reVE!nues.

ThE! financial si tuat:ion of the town will be reviewed by the Department of Municipal Affairs at the end of the five year period to de term·.in('! if further speciaJ. opE!raU .ng gr·ants are required, having regard to the status at the time of the possible amdlgamal"'i.on tJ.d 1-:h thE! t:otAJn o·F Grand FaJ.ls. Finally, Mr. SpeakE!r, and rnorE· importantly, the DepartrnE!nt. of Municipal Affairs will immediately conduct a detailed study to determine the costs of upgrading t:.he munlc ipe:\l. "i.nfras l~l~uc l::ur~:! in ·the town of Windsor to bring services up to a normal standard. Mr.

Speaker, feE!t, and so No. 53 while I that the am on pE!Ople my of R2853

the Province will know that there "i.s more than one tmun, this is not the only municipality in the Province where we have to give special grants in order to keep them going. Windsor did get a special gl"ant last year, and therE! was an amount included in this year 1 s budget, but the statement I just ref.'ld adv i.ses Lhe House that for Windsor it will be a long-term th"i.ng, over a five year period.

There are tiJJo oth(,'l" municipalili.es which get large grants in order to survive: One Js Wabana, and for· the last several years, I do not know hotJJ far back it goes, maybe t e n y ear s , they h a v e be E!rl g e t t i n g $160,000 a year to survive. We have also had to assist the Town of Buchans, Mr. Speaker·. I think it goes back to 1986, and they ge!t a special operating grant of $100,000. So han. members on both sidE!S of the House can seE! that it is not easy to keep all thes(,~ municipalities going, municipdlities which halH~ suffE!red an ecomonical setback for whatever reason.

They do no l lvwr:~ the tax base and, of course, government accepts ils moral and legal responsibility and duty to see that th0se towns eRn op0rate. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. WELLS: Mr.

Speaker, of the Town I arn sure thE! pE:1opl.e of Windsor will be grateful to government For L2 8 S4-June 10, 1988 Vol XL providing them with these funds, and For agreeing to provide the funds in the futurE!. · It is an answe!r, but: .it i.s an cU1St)Jer not to the problem; it is treating the cons~;:~qtH:HlCE~s and not g0I:U.ng dot.~.m to the root causE! of ·the pl"oblE!rn; L L is th~;:1 equ·iva1enl of putting the municipality on welfare pE!r'pehli:-lll.y. And ·this i.s tJJhat. ·is wrong with it in pd. nd. pl e, even though th(,1 tOIAJI'l nt:HH~s :i.l:.

It J.s a simple answer: just g:Lve thE!ITI l:he Fa:ir share of the tax r'E:WE~nue l:hctt their incomes and expenditurE!S and activities generate instead of letting tt all go to tha·t part of that community which happens to be in the district of the hon. the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Simms). SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. WELLS: And this is what is wrong with i.t. They are not tr(,1ating, Mr. Speaker, the basic problem, and that Ls what this government should be doing in this case.

IIOIJJE:wer, as soon e~s tAJe change t:he government, after the next el0ctJon, tAJe u.Ji.ll Clssure Windsor of fairness and balance and we w i 1.1 as sur· e t h 0111 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. WELLS: -that they wi 11 havE! fair· n e s s and balance with dignity and self-respect and they u.Ji11 not bE! treated to the ignominy of having to accept what is E!SSE!nttally municipal IJ.Jelfare. EVE!I1 though I have to say I have no doubt thE:1 people of Windsor will be grateful for the bit of he!J.p, thE!Y w:i.J.J. bE! insult0d that government is not No. 53 R2854

really trealing the probJ.E:~rn IAJhi.ch would allow them to continue to prosper· as a municipality, with dignity and self-respE!Ct, as they are entitled to do . Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. LONG : Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : The hon . the member for St . John 1 s East. MR . LONG : Thank you, Mr.

Speaker . ~~e regre:~t !JJe c:U.d not havE:~ a copy of the statement to look at some of th€~ clel:a·.ils the m·i.nJster has presented, but we note the minister acknowledged, when he opened his statement, that because he was on his feet and dealing with politics, he would round thE! dollar figure off t:o $1 rni.ll-Lon. Well, it is quite clear by the manner of the presentation that obviously the Minister of Municipal Affairs comes in quite regularly and denies and decries the fact that members opposite are alleging political involvement ·in the allocation of grants .

By the mere act of the announcement today, a week after we saw a whole load of municipal grants, in which we singled out a town that happens to be in the district just recently taken by the Leader of the Opposition, the minister is obviously committed to playing poJ.itics 1..1Jith the distribution of these grants .

N Ol..t.J , I d m n o t s u r e 1.1.1 h e t h E! r h e j_ s nodding in thE! genE!ral dirE!Ction of the E!fforLs oF l:.he Loader of the Opposition doing a good Job represcnt-Lng his district, or L2855 JUnE! 10, 1988 Vol XL promising the Mayor of Windsor that if he stays involved with the gover·nmE:~n t party' he wJ11 bE:~ able to promise his constituents more from the Minister of Municipal Affairs.

I think the manner in which the minister made his announcements, both last week and today, will clearly give members of the Opposition, and also everybody in this Province, the right to say that the distribution of municipal funding in this ProvincE! is clearly a poliU .cally load €:~ d operat ion and Ul€: ' min~is ter shows it in good fashion by making i'l.nnot.rrlct:~mt~Hlls lhe t.1.Jay he has this Jnorning. MR. RIDEOUT : Mr. Spe:~akE:~r . MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of Fisheries . MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr.

Speaker, I am very ph~ased to report today that the Fisheries Loan Board enjoyed an extremely successful year during 1987-88 . Board officials have prepared statisticaJ. information which clearly indicates an unprecedented level of activity for the 1987-88 fiscal year. Under the Direct Loan Program thE! Board experienced a 48 per cent increase in act:i.vi.ty for a total of 1, 151 approvals cornparE!d to 778 appr·ovc'l.ls For Lhe prt:'ced :ing Fiscal year . This increase E!quates to a 66 per cent increase in the dollar value of loan amounts.

This past year 1 s total under the D.trect Loan Program was approxirnatE•J.y $10.4 m.ill:i .on cornparecl lo <:lpproxirnat:E!ly $6.3 million in the 1986-87 fiscal y ca;n. Ac+:i .vi.l::y under th~~ Bank Loan No . ~) 3 R285S

Guarantee Program increased by an enormous 600 per cent from the previous fiscal year. Sixty-three loans were approved under this program compar·ed 1-:o ni.ne loans for 1986-87. In this case, the incrE:~ase i.n number·s r·elr.tted l:o an 814 per cent increase in thE:~ dol.l.ar value of loan cHTJount~;, i'IS there was $2.05 million approved in 1986 -·87 comparE:~d to $18.8 million for last year. Thee~ category of bank loans which experienced the most significant increase in activity was for construct:i.on of boats gr•cc~ab:~r than thirty-five feet.

Of the sixty--three bank loans approved in 1987-88, thirty-five were to finance the construction of boats greater than thirty-five feet compared to two approvals for the construction of similar boats in the previous fiscal year. For the construction of large boats the increase in numbers results in a staggering 1500 per cent increase in the dollar valUE! of loan amounts, as there was $1.06 million approved in 1986-87 compared to $15.5 million last year. Mr. Speaker, activity under the Board's bounty programs also E:~xper·ic'!nC(~d a subslanl.Lal. incrc-:~C\se in 1987 ··88.

The Board's botJnty programs apply to new vessel construction of both large and small categori.E:~s. and Jnebuilding or repair of larger type boats. Under the Board's rebuilding and repair bounty program last year there were thirteen permits approved amounting to $3 30, 810. compared to ten permits approved amounting to $213,000 for 1986-87. With respect to bounty program. small vessel the· smaJ.l 254 permits construction boat for L28S6 June 10, 19B8 Vol XL vessels less than thirty-five feE!t were issued compared to 210 per·mits in 1986- -1987.

The total small boat bounty paid in 1987 ·1988 JJJas $tW7. 535, compared to $229,000 the previous year. Under the Board's large boat bounty progi"clrn ninc,~te~:!n FJ('>r'rn~i. ts for large vessel construction 1; e s s e J. s o 1; e r tl1'i. r t y · f i v r:~ f E! e t were issued as opposed to three pEH'mj.ts issued in 1986 ·-1987 . fhe total large boat bounty paid in 1987-1988 was $1.9 million cornparE!d to $218,000 for thE· year bE:~fore. With respect to the future outlook for large vessel construction, thE!

Board is aware of an additional tWE!nty-five pending permits for vessel construction starts in the foreseeable future. Mr. Speaker, when we look at the outgoing funds through both the lending and bounty programs, we hav(~ to give considE!ration to thE:' repayment of outstanding Joan accounts. In t.lris c:~r·ea, therr:~ has been a substantial increase in repayment: activity, much of which can, no doubt, can be attributed 1-.:o +:he Roar·d's assignment o·F l:he CATCH Program .

To March 15, 1988, thE:~ Board has i'\J.ready r·ecc,dved approximately $9.7 million in i'\ccounl.: ineduc ·l:i.ow; compared l:o total account reductions in the ent·.ire 1986 ·1987 fiscal yr:~iH' of $6.4 milJ.ion. Tlw builder·s of" both large and small vessels were very busy in the 1987-1988 fiscal year· and continue to be in thE! curre!nt. year. There ar·e lWE!lve approved fibreglass boat buiJ.der·s and edght large steel and wooden boat builders presently in the Province JJJho currently r:~rnploy approximatE!ly 350 persons. No. 53 R28S6

Mr. Speaker, I believe these f:igur'1'::1S clearly :indicate a r("HH~I.o\H;!d confidence in our fishing industry by the Fishermen of Newfoundland and Labrador. The increase in activity sur·rounding the Fisher·ies Loan Board is clearly indicative that the fishery of this Province remains a vital and rapidly growing sector of our provincial economy. MR. W. CARTER: Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. th1'::1 member fOJn Twillingate. MR. W. CARTER: Mr .

Speaker, I think the minister 1 s stE1tement lh:Ls mornJ.ng, and some of the very impressive Figures he announcE:1d, once i:lg<'lJn indjcates the importance of the F is her i e s I. o an A oar d . l h C:1 13 oar· d has now become big business in terms of t.h~~ arnoun t of rnonoy U·wy are handling and disbursing to various fishermen. Mr.

Speaker, I think that also points out the need for this government to impress upon its counterpart in Ottawa the nE!ed to takE:' a second look at some of the federal government 1 s licencing policies with respect to vessel construction, and aJ.so, of courSE!, it points out the need, given the fact that we now have a J.arge number of our fishermen who are going in debt for considerable amounts of money, for government to maybe better manage the resourc("1 in order to proti'::1Ct Ull'::' interest of our small boat inshore fishE:1rm(-:"!n.

We all know, Mr·. the past two or fishing industry especially the Speaker, thr.~+.: ·i.n three years the 1n Newfoundland, inshore fishing L2H57 June 10, 1988 Vol XL sector, has been anything but satisfactory. We all know, of course, that the r~ason ·the .i.nshore fishery .Ls cont-inuing to fail can bE! attributE!d, to a largE! extent, to the mismanagement of the fishery on the part of the Federal government. Wl'::1 have cases, Mr. Speaker, tJJhE!rE! some of the smaller boat fishermen cannot now obtain suff"iciE!nt fi.sh to pay their expenses.

I would strongly sugges l to thE:! rnin:.l.s ter that he should, maybe - and I cHn sure he has but I would again request hirn - to seriously consider making even stronger representation to his federal countl'::~lnparl:. lo hcwE~ c1 second look at thE! liCE!ncing policiE!S Of thE! Federal. government, and also to impress upon the minister and h:is f (~ d e r i'\ J. C 0 Ll n 1: 1'::1 r p a In t S i:. h e 11 10' ~~ d f 0 In a better and more practical fLsheries rna.nagernenl: plc:~n for the Atlantic area. Mr. Speaker, we all know what has happened to the inshore fishery.

We know that, I beliE!Ve it v.Jas in 1986, for example, approximately 99 per cent of the total offshore E!ffor·t 1.1.Jas conCE!ntrated on thE! L~wo banks that feed the inshore fisher·y, the Funk Island Banks <"'4nd the Northern Grand Banks. Only after, I presume the government and members of thE! Opposition and the trade, the indus ~:ry, objected to what was happening, did the 1987 rnanagE!ITIE!nl: pl.an, I believe i.t was, announce that they werE! going 1: o d i v e r· s e t h e F-i s h .i n g e f fell~ t ·- a third would be concentrated on the Funk Island Banks, a l:h"ird on l:hE!

Northern Grand Banks, and a Ud rd on the Hamilton 13anks. That IAJas a good move, but, Mr. Speaker, given Lhe frHl-. that the -Lnshor'E! ftsh stocks have not increased to any gn~al.: '~xtC:Hll:, m<'lybe +.:l'l(!Y shouJ.d qo a little furthE!r clnd d:i.sbursE! thE! 1\Jo. ~)3 R2857

efforts still furthE!r, and lessen the fishing concentration on the banks on which thE! inshore SE!Ctor of the Newfoundland fishery depends. Mr. Speaker, again I have a lot of good t.hings to say about Uw risheriE:~s Loan Board. I know the difficulties under which they operate. I would like to hear Fr-om the:~ min:i.ster, though, some time on the leasing policy he announcod two or thl "ee y<:~ar's ago, where boats were being leased. In fact, thi:tl:. is not a nr:~IAJ policy.

Jt was a policy that was put in place back in the 1970s to facilitate fishermen who, through no fault of their o1Mn, could not find the necessary downpayment. MR . SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. W. CARTER: Yes, Mr. Speaker. In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I would ask the minister to give us an accounting sometime of the s u c c E! s s or o the rw:L s E! of t h e i r leasing program. MR. lONG: Mr . Speaker . MR. SPFAKFR : The h () n . l: h :::~ mE! rn bE! r r 0 r ~3 t . J 0 h 11 I s East. MR. LONG : Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker, t.ue welcome the contents of the statement by the minish~r.

In fact, I suppose the minister and the staff of his departme:~nt arE! to be congratulated for some of the good works they are doing. But I have a particular problem I would like to bring t.o the minister 1 s attention, L2858 June 10, 1988 Vol XL which I am not sure he :i.s aware of. Given the expansion of .the amount of activity going on through the Loan Board, I am not sure whether the minister realizes perhaps othE!r' member's are atJJi~re - that the staff at the Loan Board ar'e qwi U:~ ov::H'lAJork(c!d.

T mean, this growth in thE! arnoun ·t of aci·.:Lvi·l:y means thal l.:hE!r'e must· : be a concurrent groL>Jth in thE! amount oi- r·::~SOLiinCE!S avai.1db}E! 'i_n thE! depar ·tment . Now, in particular, this week I have been try:i.ng to SFHH!d up a process whereby a fisherman, who f·Lshes out of the historic fishing community of Quidi Vidi, has had a loan appr'OVE!d by t.hE:~ Boc'H'd but has been able to get no indication that he will be able to receive his cheque through the Comptroller 1 s

section of the department because there is an incredible backlog. He has an arrangeme:1nt made to purchase a boat to persecute the caplin fishery, and he is watching the weather every day wondering how close he is to the caplin fishery, but is not able to get any guaranteE! that his loan, which has been app;novecl, is going to come through within a mattE!r of a coup 1 e of tJJe (~ k s .

Now, in spE!aking with officiaJ.s in the cle:~pdrl:men ·l·., T und(:~rstiH1d that it is not just this gentleman, w h om r h <.·liJ e b r~ E:' n ;n e p r' e s E! n t .i n g , b u t perhaps hundreds of pE!Ople IAJho ar 'e in thdi.: si.i:uation. So r IAJouJ.d simply say to the minister, and I am glad to hcwe the opportunity to respond in a specific fashion, l h a l g i v E! n 1.: he ex pans i o n of t hi s activity, given the urgency when the season is about to be upon us, there has to be more assistance for those people who are doing such good work putting in place these statistics that the minister No. 53 R2858

can come .i.n and b'lke clUE! <:rE:~cl ·i.L for. So I hope thE:~ minister lJJill 1:: a k e t h c'lt: s u g g e s t :i. o n ln g o o d f a :i. t h and we can J ook forward to seEdng more resourCE!S in t.:he l_oan Bo<:,rd Off:i ce a1·1d, in particular, in the Comptr·ol.ler· 1 s sect-ion. Than!< you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER : Before calling for Oral Questions, I would like to welcome to the galleries sixty-five Grade IX students with their three teachers, Peggy Dunphy, Jackie Tilley, and Norm Hickey, from Assumption Junior High in Avondale. SOME HON. MEMB~RS: Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: I l.&.Jould also J.:ike to welcome th-irty ·four Grclde V to VI students with their two teachers, Betty Barron and Patr·i.ck GE:~r.~r, From St. Regis Elementary School, Fox Hatnbour. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! Oral Questions MR. BARRY : Mr. SpE:~aker . MR . SPEAKER : The han. the member for Mount Scio - Bell Island. MR . BARRY: Mln. Speaker, I have a question for the M:inis tc,~r of Mun'id.pa1 AffaJr·s (Mr. Btnett). I would like to ask the minister whether in the allocation of pr·iotnities for rnuni .ci.paJ.

FundJng th i.s yE:wr hE! lJ.Jds L2859 June 10, 1988 Vol XL awaro of the muni<:ipality oF Paradise and the problems that U1dt mun.i .cJpal"i.l:y lAJas having, and specifically with respect to contdmindtion of wel1s and ditch(:'S in thE:~ area of ParadiSE! Road, and Pleasantview Avenue off Paradise Road? MR. SPEAKER: ThE! han . the Minister of MunicipaJ. Affairs. MR. BRETT : Maybe not specifically, Mr . Speaker, becauSE! that typE· of pr·oblem is pr(,walent t:tll OVE!r t.:h1?. Province, as other members hav e i.ndLcated ht!r'e over thE! last few days.

But I arn sure that I t.uas dpprtsecl oF it someti.mE~ dur ·ing t:he last four or Five months . MR. BARRY: A supplementr:H'Y, Mr. SpE!ai<E!Y' . MR. SPEAKER: A supplemE!ntary, thE! hon. rnembE ~r for Mount Sc.io Island. MR. BARRY: th e B("!ll Mr . Spc,~ake: ~t", 1 would l.:i.k e to ask the minister is hE! aware that in that parl: .:iculc'li'' ar·ea of Patni':!l.dise,

whereas four of twelve homes on Pleasantvit"!IJJ AVE!Ill.l(:~ that had lAJe1ls contaminated by human waste and setJJage last YE.'i.H', this YE:'ar eight of the twelve homes had their tJJater· supply polluted. t:hat thE!re is raw sewage in the ditchE!S that is a hazard to children playing in thE! arE!a, and that househoJ.d pE!t S are bringing this matE!r·:.i.al into the homes? And would the rninistE!r indicatE:~ tJJhether. in fact. there are higher priorities in the c:lll.ocalion of money for t~.Ja~ .:E:~r t:.~nd sewer than th e health of Uw residents of the Province? MR. SPEAKER : No. 53 R2859

The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. BRETT: Mr . Speaker, my anst~.Jer tAJould have to be the same. There is nothing unique about that si.tuat.ion. It .is an absolutely terrible situation when thr:~sr:~ sor·ts of tlri.ngs occur. But I have to advise the hon. member· t:hai: i.t is, C\gcdn, happening all over the Province, maybe to Vdryi.ng clegr'E:'<-:!S. Maybe it is exceptionally bad in ParRdise. I have not personC\lly seen that. But again I r·E:~peat, in all probclbil.i.ty ~;omebocly has btnought it to my attention and I hctuc been adui.scd of simi.lar situations in other parts of the Pr·ovi.ncr:~.

In terms of priority, Mr. Speaker, it is very difficult to priorize, I guess, when you have that situation existing in different parts of the Province. It is fi.ne Jo say priorize, but you can onJ.y priorize so much according to the dollars and cents that you have available. MR. BARRY: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the mE!fnber for r.Jtou n t Sci o ·-- Be l.l. Island. MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, realizing the rn'i.n:i .ster is nr:~t1.J to lhE! depar·l:ment and there are many problems around the Province that hdve to be dealt tAJith, I ask thE! minister is he aware thctt when the United Nations, or other World Health or ai.d gr·oups, look at: assistance t.o third world countries, one of their first priorities i.s to try and ensure that thE!re is potable, drinkable water available to the L2860 June 10, 1988 Vol XL residents of these countries?

I ask the minister, as I indicatE!d in my letter tAJhi.ch 11.1as delivered to him yesterday, I believe, whether the minister would consider meeting w:Lth thE! resicJc,~nts, and particular ·ly thE! totJ.m counciJ. of ParadisE:1, witl1 a vie1.~o.J l:o sccH:~:i.ng, eVE!n .if on1y on an" E!mer·gency basis, whE!ther someUd ng co11J.d bt:! clone for thE~ mun.ic:Lpality of Paradise to ensure that at least the standctrds of a third world country are appliE!d to this rnun.i.c.i.pali t:y lM:i. Lhi.n l:h<'! rn-.i.nis l.:(;! r'' s rE!Sponsibility? MR. SPEAKER: ·rhC:~ hon. the Min"i.s lEH' of Municipal Affairs. MR.

BRETT: Mr·. Speaker·, this gov E! r nment, and the department that I represent in particular, is very cognizant of the nE!E!d to supply potablE! dr:i.nk-Lng IJ.Jater, proper setAJer·;~lge disposal and all that sort of thing. That is why, a few days ago, I stood here and announced pr·ograms amounting to 'in excE!S s of $42 milJ.ion. UnfortunatE!J.y. it was not enough but it was certainly a good chunk out of this y e ar· ' s bud g e t . I am always happy to meet with any co u n c:L l , M r . S pea!< C:! r , tAl h <c1 1-.: her· i t be Paradise or anybody else.

I am do:Lng i.t c1ll ddy long. fherr:~ is no 1·. h :i. n g s t r r.u1 g E:~ abo u t. that: . MR. WELLS : Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKF.R: The ~10n. l:he L(~adE:!r of l::hE! Opposition . MR. WELLS : Mr. Sp<~ai<c;!r, I have,~ the hon. the rransportation (Mr . No . 53 a question Minister Doyle). for· of Now R2860

that e•JE!rybody knoL1JS that an agrE:~ernent tn principle has been reachc:!d on th~~ cl.oSIIrl':~ of the r·ai l1Aia.Y in this Province, wi 11 the governml':~nt i.nd:i.cal:l,, to the House 1.uhether they intend to provide an opporturlity for full public debate on the terms and conditions that are agreed upon for the closure of the lnailway bE!forE! implementing any terms of the agre ement? Mf~. SPEAKER: The han. the MinistE!r of Transportation. Mf~. DOYLE: Mr .

Speaker, this is the same question that the member and other han. members opposite, have been asking for quite some time now, and the same answer is no less applicable,~ today than wha 17. it u..1as LAJhen I answeJned thE:~ question back a month, l::wo months or· thr·ee months ago. Talks have been ongoing be,~ ltAII'H~n the Pr·ovince, t.he federal government, and CN with respect: to the disposal. of the NetAJfoundland Railu.1ay. If and when '" clr.:~cJsion is made on lhc:lL, Mr. Speaker, approprj ate announcements tArill be made and all ml':~mbE!rs of the House will be duly informed. Ml~. WF::LLS : Mr . Speaker.

MR. SPFAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition . MR . WELLS: Has the government gives its approval or failed to object to CN already taking stE!pS to implement such an agreement by failing to maintain the rolling stock and the roadbed oF the:~ railroad i.n l:h-Ls Province? MR. SPEAKER: ll"le hon . th (,~ Mini .si·:.f>.ln of L.2861 June-?. 10, 1988 Vol XL Tr'rHlS par i:d l-Lon . r"'R. DOYLE: Well again, Mr . Speaker, I do not L h .i n k ·i. 1:: "i. s v e r y <'.l p p r· o p r· i. a t E! for· me to stand here today and talk about ct.tr'rPnl: rH:~got.iations that are underway with thE! fE!deraJ go•H:~rnntt:!ni:.

I hi.·\ve absolub~ly no inlE!ntion of talking in that vein at all because tl:: is just not appropriate, Mr. Speaker. As I -Lnd-Lcated before, when negotiations have reached the s t a g e w h e r· e,~ a s u c c e s s f ul a g r e e rn E' n t has been completed, all members will be informed. MR. DECKER : M1n . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : The han. the IW:~1nb~~r for t.hE~ Str·ai t of Belle IslE!. MR. DECKER: M r .

S p e C1. k e r , rn y que s 1:. :i. on "is also for the Minister of r r r:tn s p or !: c1 t J. on . nw m :L n i. s 1: e r tJJ .i.ll know that UlE!re used to bE~ signs aJJ. i:l.J.ong the Tr'HI1S ·-C<HH·\cld H'ightAJay saying that the fine for littering lJ.k\S $100. MR. DOYLE : I cannot hear you . MR. DECKER: l"hal is your colleague 1 s fault, not mine, Mr. Minister. Drivers could notAl assumE! that it is per·fectly legal to thr·otAI litter on the sides of the roads. All those open spaces could bE! for throwing empty bottles and chickE!n boxes and so on. Will the minister explain to thE!

House 1.uhy the anti--litter· signs IJ..Jere rernovt:~d from the Trans-Canada Highway, as well as all up the Northern Peninsula and all across the P r· o

I) i n c e ? No. 53 R2861

MR. SPEAKER: ThE! han. the Minister of Transportation. MR. DOYLE : Mr. Speaker, it might be difficult for the han. member to believe, but not more than half an hour ago I had a discussion t.uith officials in my department on that very issue, in response to a letter which I received from the Cubs and Scouts in my own district, in Holyrood, which brought up that very same po ·ini-..

I/IJ~~ do hdtJe sotne signs in various parts of the Pt"ovi.nc(,~ tJ.Jh.i.ch po.i.nl ·.: ottl: the nt:inimum and maximum fines i:~ssoc:icli:.:::~d tJ.d.l:h sprt:~ac:Llng li.t .tc~r ar·ound the Provi.nce, especially along i:.he Trans --Cdnada Highway. T would like to inform the han. rnembt:~r. as tJ.Jell., thi:-tt: t.uit.hin the:~ next couple of weeks we have a new policy bt:~i.ng put i.n place in conjunction with the Departments of De v e loprne nt ., Trans por·ta t .i.on and Municipal Affairs, which will address the whole problem of signage bE!tween St. John 1 s and Port aux Basques.

One of the things that will be taken into consideration is the provision of appropriatE! signs which point out thE:~ minimum and maximum fines tJ.Jhich will be assoc]ated with litter, and other matters pertaining to signage. MR. DECKER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPF.:AKER: () suppJ ernentary. the trtE:~mber for I~ hE:~ S'Lt"a.i. l: Isl~~. MR. DECKI:R: han. of the rlell.e That is what I call action, Mr. Speaker, even if il is retroactive.

I askc,~d planning L2862 the minister when he is to put those signs up, June l.O, 1988 Vol XL will he also consider having trash cans put along the Trans-Canada, and ensur·e that they are pickt:~d up and dumped, not just an extra something to find its tJ.Jay out to the side of the road? So while he i.s putt-.ing the signs up, why not go all of the way and put the trash cans in place->. and ar·range to have them picked up. BecausE! in the past lht:'Y tAJE!r'E:~ just t.:hrot.~m out on the sidE! of thE! road. out in the gutter with the bottles and their chicken boxes. MR. DOYLE: Mr. Spt:~aker . MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Trctnsporli'ltion . MR. DOYLE: I am sure the hon. member w-.ill appr·eciate. Mr·. SpE:'c.~kt:H', that :i.t would be very difficult indeed for rny departmE:'nt to ensur·e that trdsh cans are placed along the sides of the Trans-Canada Highway between St. John 1 s and Potnt aux BasqUE!S. That will bE• a VE!r'y, very difficult thing to undertake indeed.

But in place of that what the department is curre•ntJ.y doing and u.Jill bE! doing tJ.Ji th.in thE! nE!Xt month or so is employing some students from vari.ous parts o-f the Province who will be engagE! d in a c].(~an .. up or· i'.ln-1-.:i-l.i lter· campaign for approximately a tu.Jo month pc,~r·iocl. U: occurs (~ver·y year·, as a rna t t e r of fact . But its a good po].nL that the hon. member· rnakc;·s and we will certainly take it into cun~; Jdt~rat:i.on. MR. KELLAND: r"'r· . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER : The han. the member for Naskaupi . MR. KELLAND: No. :,3 R2862

·~ Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I IAJO u 1 d 1 ike -to d i r C:' C'l: a '1 u E:1 s L:J. on to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Windsor), and Ji: rt~l.at:E:~!> to visiting foreign military personnel in Goose Bcty ctnd the request to have them exempted from r·e tail saJ.cs tc~x, si.rnJlar l.:o L:he i:t"eatment that the Canadian Ar·mE:~d F o r· c E:' s h c:W e i. n E IH ' o p E:HHl c o u n t: i" .i. E! s , or NATO allied countries. Would the minister say what government 1 s policy is regarding retail sales exemptions for foreign military on temporary duty in Goose Bay? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. MR.

WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, our policy is very clear. Any items purchased in this Province that are taken outsidE:~ of ~:he ProvincE:~ t.uil:hi.n d thirty day pE!riod are eligible for· i:l l".:ax exco~mptJon on appl 'i.ccttion by that person, Pl"ovided the tax paid i.~; a mini.muut, I th"i.nk, oF $1?.. That app] ies particular·ly to lour .i.sts tJ.Jho come .i.nto our Provjnce. Jt was an initiative thctl tAH::1 int.:roduct~cl. I thi.nk <'lbOltl thrE!e year·s ago, which has benefitted tremendously the tourl sm indus try of our· Province.

But persons from For~dgn counl :r•ies residing in Goose Bay purchasing goods to be taken out of the Province within thirty days are fully entitlod to mai<E~ app1ication and are eligible for this exemption of Y'E:1tail salE:1S tax as well. It is simple . MR. KELLAND : A supplementary . MR. SPEAK~R: A supplementary, the han. the member for Naskaupi . L2863 June 10, 1988 Vol XL MR. KELLAND: ThE! minister is missing thE! point . ln SOlliE:~ i.n~:tancE:~s, Mr. Speaker, the visiting military arE!

U1Co~re fol'' d con~>"i .dco~rr•lbJr:! per·:iod of time, and we are taJ.king about possi.ble purchi.'\Se~' of VEd·licl.c;!s <:Hlcl things of that nature . Will thE:~ m J n :l s t: e r c o n f j_ nn w h e t h e r o r· n o t the provincial government orig .Ln~lly ctgreed to the request to have them exE•rnpted from rE! l:ai1 st'lle 's l·:.ax on purchasr:,s, and t:.hat t hi s was 1 atE! r c hang E! d bE! c au s E! o f representation from the Minister responsible for Northern DevelopmE:Hlt (Mr. Warren), tAJho caused the government to change their minds? MR. SPEAKER : ThE:1 han. the MinistE!r of Finance . MR.

WINDSOR: The short dnStAiet~ l:o that question is no, Mr. Speaker·. It is nonsE:HlSto~. Gover·nment 1 s policy has been very clear and very consistent. However, we do have requests from people in the ar·ea +:h~t lH'e be.-i.ng J.oo k E!d d t., and I;.Je will consider them in the fullness of l.:i.trtf:1 . 'T'hE:1 hon . 9t 'nt1E:Hnan refers to automobilE!S. ThE!re have be<;!n i.nc ·i.clenl:s r,~por· ·l·:r:~d t.o ITIE! where people purchased automobi1es c:Hlcl c1skecl l.:o have thr..1tn tax E:~xernpt.

The fact of ti'lE! matter is l:hey clrt:1 and thE:~Y 1.uill be For some timE! driving those automobiles :in l: h .i s P r o v i n c e a n d t h e r· e f o r· e 1: h E! y arE! entitled to pay taXE!S on ·l:h~:·m, the same as anybody else. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Ml~. KELLAND : Mr. SpE!aker. MR. SPEAKER : A final supplementary, the member for Naskaupi. No. 53 the han . R2863

MR. KELLAND : What we are asking for, Mr . Speaker, is treatment equal to what our Canadian Armed Forces get in, say, West Ge:1rmany, tJJhE!r'e they do get tax exemptions. Does the minister realize that if the exemption is not granted to visiting military - we are not talking about the Canadian Armed Forces, but visiting military not only will it result in the los s of tax r·evenue but will also result in thE! loss of local sales?

B<~1causC:~ l:hes C:~ peoplE~ IAd.ll buy their products sorneL...rhere E~lse, likely outs'i.dE:~ the Pr't)l)i.nce, ci(H:1s he r·ealize the rE!SUlting loss in sa 1l:~ s md y ·in c~1 f f E~ c 1". r· e:~ s 1.11 t in 1 o s s of jobs in Happy Ualley-Goose Bay? MR. SPF.AKF.R: The hon . the Mi.nish,~r of 1-inanr:e. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. SpC:~aker, I dm diAli:H'E:~ l:.hal: that possibility rnay exist becauSE! that char ·go has bE~en made. Pe:1d1dps there is a difficulty there and we are looking at that. What I intend to Speaker, is that discriminate Newfoundlanders and for the benefit oF other countriE!S . SOME HON.

MEMBERS : HE:~ar. hear·! MIL I..ONG: Mr . Speaker . MR. SPE.AKFR : ensure:~. Mr. we do not against Labradorians people fr·orn Thl'::~ hon . the tnembEH' for St:. John 1 s fast. MR. I_ONG : Thank you, Mr·. SpE>.aker·. I put a quE~s L""i.on to the of Social SE>.rvices (Mr. L2864 June 10, 1988 M"i.nist:l:~r Tobin). Uol XL II: conc'H 'n:> the announcement : . . in the last couple of days by .the Fede:~rf.ll l·leal th Minister (Mr. JakE!

Epp) concerning a nE!IAI program, a new i.ni tlat.ive launci'H:1d by the federal government in which they wiJ.l be making up to $1.1-0 rn:i.J.J .-ion available to addn!SS the ver·y serious problem of domestic violence and violence against women in the home. T ulOitl.d li k c"! to c'l s k cou1d the Minister oF Social Services give sorne "i.ndicdti .on as +:o t:he intentions of this government in bEd.ng c:'lbJ.r::1 to hi'\VE:~ acc(;!SS t:.o UH'!

Se funds, with particular reference l: o 1: he P 1" o tJ :i. n r: e 1 s r E~ s p o n s i. b :i 1 t t. y to provide grants for operating as~d!;tE~nce .i.n orcil'::'r ' to bE:~ ablE! l:o avail of any of thE!Se fE!deral rnoni(; ~s? MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the Minister· of Soci.al Services . MR. TOBIN : Mr. Speclker, we do have some limited material and information as it relates to the question that the han. gentleman just asked. They made available approximately $4-0 mi.llion t.o approximately f.iVE! departments of government, of tJJh:ich the large:~st portion, Mr.

Speaker, is corning from CMHC, $22 m ill t o n , t h a l: tAli ll d i r· r:~ c t 1 y b e involved in the physical si:I"Uctur·c~, and Lhe opE~r·at. ·.:i.on !; of that will have to be borne by some othE:'r d9C:!I1CY, IAlhe lhE !r it be! l:hE! provincial government or someone elsE:~. Ml". Speaker, that announcement 1.o.1a s only rn<.·lclo I:.I~Jo c1,~1y:> i:\go. so tAlE! obviously have not For·mE!d any off "i. c i. i'\ J. p o !; ·i. t -i. on d s ·i. L r· e:1l c:\ t. E'! s t.: o th<.·l t. No. S3 r~2864

MR. LONG: Mr . SpE~aker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for St . John's East. MR. LONC: Mr·. Speaker, we appreciate the c:·111 s I~J t! In by L h (:~ M -L n i. s i ·. e in 0 f !') 0 c j_ i:~ J. Si'::H'v ·i ces in whicl-1 he says that thE:' golH!rnrnE!nt has nol : Fonnul.dl ::ecl .i.l.s position. Perhaps, I could put a supplementary to the Minister responsible for the Status of Women (Mr·.

Simms), 1.1.Jho has just. carne flnom a rnE:~eting with his fE:~deral and pr·ov'incial counterparts a eros s thE! country addressing pay equity and day care, and prE! s umably this important initiative by the federal government. Could the minister give us some i n d i. c a t. i o n w h E! t h e r' t h e P r· o v .i n c l-l. L s going to put montes up front to assist the present three tr·ansition centres the government r u n d $ ' a n cl Cl f 0 l.l r· t h 0 n (:~ i n L.~brador West, which are in despE~rc3.i:.e ne:~ed of opc,~r·<:ti:-Lng funds?

In order for the Provinces t:o take r.tc:lvan l:agE~ of t:hi.:; ne1AJ prnogl"am the fedel"al govelnnmE!nt is of f 1::~ r· J. n g , 1·: h e:~ F e d E! r i:ll. g o lJ l:! r n me n 1:'. :.i.s asking for· a financial COIIllrlil:.rnent·. flnOifl th~.:~ pr'OlJJ.nc~::~s to begin with. MR. SPrAKER : T h e h o n . UH~ P r E:~ s i d c,~ n t of l: h c,~ Council. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, I thank the han. member for his questi~n. Obviously the specific question about funding for the existing facilities is more appropriately directed to the Minister of Social L2865 June 10, 1988 Vol XL Services.

However, not to pass L:hE:1 buck, lAH:~ did have a srnall briefing at the federal provincial mini ste rs' meeting yesterday in Quebec City related to l·:hts pi:\r 1.: iculr.tr rna l:h!r' and th i.s particular issue. I believe the p r· o g r a 111 , IJ.J ~d J. s 1'. 1: i'H'! In ('! h a s b E:! e n some criticism that it does not cont:a:i.n a ldr'ge c:,1mounL oF rnon~~Y and is not large enough to address al,J. thE! pi ~o bl.E!IIIS, -i.l. CE!r' b:dn ly is a significant and important: initiative on the part of the fE!deral government.

We, as a prouinclal . government, I think would be most inter es ted in involving ourselves that we can. .in any tJ.Jay As the Minister of Social Services has just said, we have not yet formally taken a position on thE! issu~~. but _tAJe int .end to. If lAJE! had more revenue, of course, we could probably take the position at any time we wanted, any sp~1cifi.c insb~nce. If W::1 did not have people in this Legislature who were so opposed to Newfoundland's case with respect t o 1:. h E! lJ p p e r· C h 1 1 r c lri. J. l. , a n cl tAd l:: h respect to the offshore SOMf. HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hc,~dr'! r~r~.

SlMMS : and with rE!Spect to ThE: ' Water r~ F.! lH~ r s 1. on A c 1: , an cl IAJ 'i 1: h r· l:! s p e c l.: to the recall initiative that we 1.1 n de r 1:. o o k , U1 E:Hl FH'! rl'ld. p s IAJC~ IAJO u l d have rnore rE!VenuE! and I lAJould bE! able to ansi.~.Jer· I: he que s t:.Lon dirE!Ctly, yes, which is tAJhat thE! han. membt::H' lAJould like to hr::1a r·. MR. LONG: A final supplementary, Mr . Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon . the member for St. John's East. No. 53 R2865

MR. LONG: I would Jike to ask the minister: I n v .i e lAJ of t h !::1 r cl c t t h !3. l .l n t h (;1 djstrict of Menihek there is a tr·ansitlon houst~ run by vol.unteE!rS which may be forced to close, and in view of the fact that in my own district the Kirby House transition center· in St.

John 1 s ls projecting up to a $100,000 deficit, will the minister today give a signal to the women who are doing the fr·ont line work .in the transition houses that this gover·nment has a commitment to access ne1.1.J federal moniE!S because lt tJ.d.ll put its otAJn moniE~s, ·in the way of additional operating gr·ants, 1.1p fr·ont? Thdt. is u.Jhdt the women who are working there and the tJ.Jornen u.Jho e~re i'\lJr:li ling of these services need to hE:1ar. MR. SPF.:I)KF.:R : ThE~ h on . the P r· e s i d e n t of thE! Council. MR. 3IMr·13 : Mr· . Speaker·, the1 han. member need not gE:d~ aggrr:1ssivE:1 or nasty .

He cotJld ask thE! question in a sensi.ble and orderly ft..'lshion. Thto?. announcement of the program only took place two days ago. T thought the han. member was ·a bit more sensible than that. MR. MITCHELL : He has a reputation for being disorderly. MR. SIMMS: Yes. I understood the hon. member is usually tAJell prepared For things, Mr. Speaker . MR. MITCHF.:LL : ThE~ mernbe1n has a reputation for tJiol.ence. MR. STMM~) : Ml".

SpeakE:1ln, this govE:1rnmE!nt has sho!J.Jn Ji:s commitm~!nt to impr•otJing L2866 June 10, 1988 Vol XL the d.ghts of tJ.Jomen. l'C!Ui'lli ty for· women and all the other kinds . of things associated IAlith improvements for women, including the establishment of equal pay for work of equal value issue, including thE~ E!Sta.bl:ishrnent. of the Women's Policy Office, including the establishment of the Provincial Advisory Council on the Status of Women, including funding for transition houses, including all kinds of i.nltiat :Lues, Mr.

SpeakE!r, and we IAlill address this issue in the same responsible kind of way that lAJE! haVE! addresSE!d a11 the others that 1 just talked about. MR. BAKER : Mr. Spc,~<:lkf:1r . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the rn( ~lllbE:~r for· GandE!r. MR. Bn:<ER: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of F i nr.Hl c E:1 . F.: n s h r· i. n E:~ d 'in t: he Constitution is the statE:~mE!nt tha ·t equalization payments will ensure that provincial governments have sufficient revenues to provide reasonably comparablE! levels of public services at reasonably comparable leuels of taxation.

In the equalization formula that is applied to this Plnovince as weLl. as othE:H' provinces, hOI~JE:~uer·, Uwre is absolutely no consideration given to the difficulty of providing municipal seruiCE!S in a Province 1 i.kc~ Newfoundland cHid as a result we are getting ripped off hundred~; of mi .ll.i.ons a year·, Mr·. SpE~C\ !< E!r. MR. SPEAKER: Order, pleasE:1! The han. member is :;peech so IdS!< h·i.rn No. 53 notAl making <:~ l: o eLi. r· e c t·. h i. s R2866

!!_ quest-ton. MR . BAKER : Mr. Speaker, it is a necessary background for• thC:~ Min·istE~r of Finance "l:o answer the quC:~stion. My questton to the minister is : BE:~arJ ng in mind the fact that we arC:~ ·get+.:'i.ng r:i.ppc:!d oFF for· hundl"eds of mjllions of dollars a yedr beCdUSf~ of' i:hi.S OlJ( :~rsi.yhl:, what is the minister presently clo'i.nq to <:HlSlli"l'~ Lhdl". 1~1e gE!l~ some of this money back irt the next yec.H ' or so? MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of Finance . Mf~. WINDSOI~: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. gentleman for his question.

It is nice to see that somebody over there has some concern about Newfoundland. lt .is too bad his leader is more concerned for the people of Quebec. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR . WINDSOR: Perhaps if we had some of the monc~y th<:"'t hi.s J.E:~ad<'!r g<:we al.\k'IY l·:o Quebec, Ml". SpeakC:~r, WE:~ would not be LIJOr'r'i.l ?.d dbotlt : equi:1li.7.t'lt 'i.on, we would be paying Quebec. MR. HAI<ER : A n s l~<H:~ r t h C:' q u (,~ s 1 . .i o n . SOMF HON. MEMBFRS: l·IE:~<'lr, heRr! MR. WINDSOR : Maybe his lecider would like to answer for that, Mr. Speaker. MR. BAKER: He will . MR.

WINDSOR: ThE! only thing he has not done is L2867 JlHH:~ 10, 1988 Vol XL spoken French yet in this House of Assembly. Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon . g<~ntJ.eman for the quC:~s tion. He got it From the information that I p r o t; ·i. cl C:~ d l·. o t h c,~ 0 p p o s .i. t: i o n 1 a s t week, qui ·te a bit of it, in fact., r:!xplain~i.ng fuJ.l.y l::hE~ (:~qur'll-Lzat.:.ion system. He knows exactly the anSLilE!r ' to the'! qt1es L-Lon but he is asking it anyway.

The fact of l.:hE! 1r1a t l: (·o! ;· ·i ~; l:: her· r,~ '"t I" e I~ h i. r' l y -s Eo! v en items that ar'E! involved hE!rE! in dC:~t E!rrn i.n.i.ng 1'\0I .~<J ec11.1d h .zcd :.ion j s paid across Canada, Mr. Speaker, and i·:ht"tt-. i.~; jttst one of the1n. Obviously, there is considE!ration given For a whole range of factors. You cannot posstbJ.y dE!aJ. with every item that would have an impact on the financial position of the Province but over the years it is a very complicated issue, as this booklet that I gavr:~ th::! Opposition shows very clearly. AN HON. MEMBER: I do not have the booklet . MR.

WINDSOR: Well, your l l:' CidC:~r ha~ ' -Lt . T realize he keeps stuff to hirnsE•lf a n d d o c,~ ~; n o t s h cH' t'! i. l l~<d l"~ h y o u , but it was provided to your lead er . Tf he wa s as generou s with information to his coll E:~dgU E!S as h0 :i.s g:i .tJing 'i.nFot"tn<:lt:i.on t.o Quebec, then maybe yol ~ I.~Jould bE! a 1itlle bit bett er off over th ere. SOMF HON. MEMBERS : Hear, h( ,~i:lr! MR. WINDSOR: The Fdct of l'.:i'w lflatter· is, Mr . Speaker, it is a very complicated formul.a. It ati:E:Hnpts to t.<:~ke in to consideration everything that can impact on the economy.

If the han. gentleman does not undE!rstand this documC:~nt, I arn surE! he leadc•r does not, and I am not sure I do, No . 53 R21l6'7

Mr· . Speaker·. It is a v e:~ry COtnpl:i.Cc'-t:ed :i.SSIIe . Mi~ . 13AKER : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPf~KFR: A supplementary, ~ember for Gander . MR. BAKER: the hon. the~~ Mr. Speaker. obviously he do~;:~s not understand what this is all about himself. Is the minister dLIJiH'e that of these thirty-seven items none of t h em , n o t o rH~ s i n g 1 t~ i t <~~ m , t d. ktc! s into account the:~ difficulty of providing lnuni.c.ipr .~l SE!rvice:~:; in this Prov·l n ce? Is he also aware that not one of tht!tn lake:~s inl .:o consideration the basic level of services that exists :i.n this Province?

Wj.ll he: ~ now admit that this is in contravention of Lhe const:itutlon of 1982, whEH'E:~ we arE:' g 1.1 r:n· r:l n t (:~ E! cl t: hat I.I.Je w:i. J. J. 9 (:~ L e 110 ugh c~~quaJ:iL.ettion to pr·ovj de corupar·able levels of service? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear. hE:H:J.r! MR. SPEAKF.:R: The hon. the Minister of FinanCE!. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. SpE:~aker. I am aware that the systE!tn does tal<e .into account provincial local property tax revenue, tAJh.ich doE!S impact on l::he ability of municipalities to finance themselves.

TL does take into account personal income tax; business .income revenue; capital tax reventJes; gE!neral and miscP11arH~ous selJ.E :!s l:i~x<,~s; tobacco tc.tx; gasoline tax; diE!Sel fuel; non-commercictl vehicle license; comrnE:!r·c:ial vehlcles license; sale of spi.1"i.ts; sr:l1fo! of 1.1.J:i.ne; si:lJ.e of beer; hospital and medical care L2!Hi8 Jlll18 1.0, 1.988 \Jo1 X I. insurance premiums; fon~stry rE!tJenu~:~; nE:~IAJ o i.l revenut:~s. Mr .

Speaker; oil revenues from new oil r·eferencE:~ pricE!S; old oil revenues; heavy oil revenues; mined oil revenues; domestically sold natural gas revenues; exported natural gas; sales of Crown leases; other oil and gas r~~VE:~nut~S; rnlnr:~ral n~sources. iron; mineral resources, uranium; mineral resources, asbesto es; mineral resources, coal; water potAJer· rent .als, Mr . Speah'r . It takes that j.nto account. That ts an interesting one, Mr.

Speaker, water power rentals; payroll ti'JX(o!S; insurance r-wr:Hnium t.aXE!S; lottery revenues; miscellaneous provincial loccll taxes and revenues; miscellaneous taxes and r e IJ e n u e s F r· o rn t h e l o c a l l t~ v e l. . ~~ r . Speaker; and shared rE!Venues from offshor~:~ dctiiJ'i .l:.i c~ s. li·lE:' ·intend to get much more revenue frorn offshore activity thdn we get from Hydl"O. MR. RAKER : (.l fJncll ~;tippJ.enH~Hll:ar·y, Mr·. Spl~i:ll« '!l" . MR. SPEAKER: A final SIJppll:!rnen tclry, thE! hon . the member for Gander. MR.

BAKER: Will the minister admit his incompetencr:~ in th-Ls issue, SE:~t up a committee to study this obvious lnequlty that we are not being provided with what we are guaranb~E:~d undE:H' thr::~ Constil:u ·t.'ion, Will the minister now at least look at it to see and undersl: r.~nd for himself that we are mi ssing ht.indr(.;!ds of m:i .l.lions of doll ars a year?

Quebec recently got anothE!r $1. bi.lli.on gJve:~n thE~m :i.n sp .il::e of the fact they get $3 billion in E! q I I r:~ 1. j, z i'l l: i. 0 n . lr>J h "' L .i s I·H~ d () i n g l: 0 get something for this Province i:l n d t·. o g e ·t: l.: h t::~ M 'i. n i. s 1': e r· of Municipal Affair·s out of the spot i\Jo. S3 f0868

he is in now? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han . the Minister of Finance. MR. WINDSOR: Mr . Sp~~aker, I clrn ent(;!r ·i.ng "i.nt.o negotiations with Quebec to get back the $1. bi.l.l.·Lon l.:hat the Lc~aclel'' of t:he Opposition gaVE! at.uay. SOME HON . MEMBERS : HecH' I hei'.H'! MR. W. CARTER : Mr . Speaker . MR. SPEAi<F::R : The hon. the member For TtALill ingab:~ . MR. W. CArnER: Mr. Speaker I my question is to the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Rideout). I wonder is the minister ln a position now to tell the long suffering people of St.

LawrE!nce and LatA.Jn tA.Jhat t.i.rnr::~ they can expect some action on getting their fish plants reopened? MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. IUDEOUT: Mr . Speakeln I the ministe!r and the JnE:'rnbt'!r for 1:hH ctrf~ct, all of us hau(~ be( ~~n actively pursuing a f "i. n ,,, J. i. .1. r.1 t "i. o n o F Uw s "i. -!.: 11 d U. o n f i:l. ci 11 g t he p eo p 1 e of ~3 t . La lAir' en c E:~ and '-t'ltA.Jn s i.nc10~ Monday. Pr·ogress js being made, and thcd:. is all I cdn sr:1y at -!:he monH:Hlt. MR. W. CAR·rt:R: Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: A supple:~m(:~ntary, l:he member for Twillingate.

L2869 June 10, 1988 hon. th(:~ Vol XI. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Spr::~akC:H', I wonder· can thE! minister then tell the House without delving too deeply into negotiations, whether or not an operator is about to be put in place in that plant? ThE! peoplE! "i.n St. l.aiAlr't:~nce, Mr· . Speaker·, are wondering what is going on, and I th.i n k I:: hey h<'1V C:~ d r·i.g ht l::o k nOtAl . Can he tell the House if they are n e g o t i a Li . n g tAd i.: h a s p e c i. f .i c operator who more than likely will b 1':~ p I I 1·. i. 1'1 p J r'1 C C' oi. 1"1 t h i't t p l. C1 1'1 l. t 0 opt:~ral.:e .it? MR.

SPEAKER : '!" h c,~ h o n . l h ~) r"i i n j_ s 1:. n r o F 1·: i s h (:• r· J e s . MR. RIDEOUT: M r· . S p E~ a k r:'r' , r· ~:! p r· 1::~ s e n t. d U. v e s o f the Town Council of St. Lawrenc e, lhe union and other groups have been told in confidencE! what hi:'ls br::~en happen.ing, thE:~Y have bE! en briefed in confidence as to the progress that has been rnade to date, and they are fully aware• of where tAle are r:lt this mornent. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear I hear! MR. EFFORD: Mr·. Speal<t:~r . MR. SPEAKER : Tht~ hon . t:hE~ rn<:~rnb(;!l" For Por·t dE! Gr·ave. MR. EFFORD : lhdnk yor1, Mr. Speab:!r . Mr .

Spea!u~r, my qt.IE!S L·i.on ·i.s l::o thE! President of Treasury Board. It Js :i.n connc'!Ct-.ion lAiith thE:' l:r::~ndE!r's that were called for the etJal.rJat:ion of the o~~pr.H'lment. of Social Services and the Department oF Pub 1 "i. c Wo r' k s and ~-) E:! r vices . Those tenders have been awarded . Would the President of Treasury Board tell us how much that tender No. 53 R2869

was awarded lender? MR. STMM~3: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: for and who got The hon . the President of Council. MR. SIMMS : thE! the Mr. Spc,~aker·, I lAJould be happy to take the question as notice to get the specific details of the question. But I will. do that for the hon. member. MR. EFFORD: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Port de Graue. MR. EFFORD: M i'" . S p c~ a kt :~ r , l-) u E:H' y 1: ·i.HH :~ I .-:1 s k a question nobody seems to know the clrlSlAHH'.

I.e(: roe Si:l'j thai·. l:hl:~ 'LE-H1dE:~r Clt.uatnded to Clar•kson Gor·don Wds For $476,000 plus expenses. MR. SPEAKER : Or·dE:~r. please->.! MR. fFFORD: My Sl .lppl.t:~lnentrH'Y -Ls to l:hr:~ Minister of Social Services . Does this eva 1 u a '1.: "i. on Jn(~ '" n I IAJa n t i. t confirmed - that there is going to be a saving to the provincial treasutny and further cutbacks in the De par trne nt of Social Ser·v ices, where cutbacks have already been implemented? MR. LONG: What! Cutbacks in Social Services? MR. SPF.:AKER: The hon. thE! Minister oF Social S <·?.r' v ·i. c e s . MR.

TORTI\J : L2870 JurH~ 10, 19H8 Vol XL Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for s l: . J () h n I s F r'\ ~; L: l~)i;) s r· -L g h t . thE:! r· E! have never been any cutbacks· in t h e 0 (~ p ;,, r t rn e n 1-. of ~3 o c- i. a 1 S c>. r· 1ri c C:! s . SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, ht:~i:l.r! MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, we in thE! DepartmE!nt of Social. Sl->.rvi.c( :!s, as t:h~:' hon. gentleman said, wholeheartedly agr·(:!e and suppor·t. the consull~.an ts corning in to make E•valuation.

We ar·e hopeful, and confidE!nt., by the way, that this evaluation wiJ.l make thr:~ dE~pctrt.rnen t a bl=! l~ lE!r department for employees to work ln. It will. make it a better department for the people we s e r· v o . M r· . S p (>.a k e r . the r e have been no cutbacks in thE! Department of Social Services. Unfortunately, M1n. Speaker, lAJE! arE:~ no; : i'1b1e to do (:~verything that the people want us to do, eUE!rything 1-.hi :d: the fH>.opl.e lo~JOIIl.cl l.iko us t.o do. Mr. Speaker, if we had the rnonny l:hr.1l: ti·ll:! I.E!r:'lder· of the Liberal Party of this Province Ci:liiSC:~d 11s to thr'OlAJ di.UdY!

Mr . Speaker, that infamous letter of i.nt:~::!nt th~~l: IAJr'\S s:i .gn('!c:l, IAJh:ich he may care:~ to talk about, is . ti'w problem we haue. We cannot do what we want to do because of thE~ actions oF the LE:'ac:ler of t.he Opposition. Mr. Speaker, rnay I suggE!St, bE!forE! I sit do1o~1r1, thil 1: he should ask a qUE!Stion on it so we can reaJ.ly expos(>. him to t:h(->. people o·F U1e Province for what he did with ·that letter of intent. MR . EFFORD : A f i. n a J. s u p p l (>.mE~ n i:i:u· y , M r . S p E! a k e:~ r . MR . SPEAI<ER: A final supplementary, the hon . t:ht>. rnewb~:H' for Port de G r·av~:~ .

No. 53 R2870

MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, would thE! Minister of Soci .al Ser·vices c-?.xplain f:o us t.uhy $245,000 was given to the St . John's Community Service Council to study thE! effE!Cts of cutbacks of the Department of Social Services in this Province, if thN'I':~ u..H~rE:~ no cutbacks? Would he explain why we are paying $16 million in sctlar'i .l-:~S l·:o i:he executive support staff of the D <;! p a r t rn ~~ n '1: of S o c i r.1 l ~> c,~ r· v -i. c (o! s IAJ h e n wr:~ havE.~ to bring in a g I"Ou p fr·orn o u t s .l d e Ud s P r o v i n r; E! t o i: e l J. 11 :; hot.u to r·un the Dr:~partrnE:~nt of Socictl Services?

MR . SPErli<ER: The hon . thr:~ Mjnist:c,11" of Soci1:~l ScH'Iri.ce!; . MR. TOBCJ\J: Mr. Speaker, I am not sure what l·:hc,~ hon. genl: .l\o!rnan' s que: ;tton i.s or what he was trying to get at. As a ma.th~r· of fact, Mr'. Sp~~ak~!r, before I left the office this morning I t.uas meeting IAJ.ith the regional directors from around the Province . Do you kno1.u tAJhat they are in at, Mr. SpE!aker? They are in trying to straighten out and take the additional thirty staff members that we have announced for the Department of Social Services. That is what the l"eg :ional directors ar·r:~ at this morning, Mr. SpeakGr .

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Her'\r, he:1r:1r! MR. TORTl\J: Thr- .d:, Ml" . ctl'i: .br:~ck. Spt~akE:~I", is no l a The pr·obl.c,~m i.s, Mr . ~-3pedkloH', a:; ( exp]ctined to the hon. gentlemen be f o r~::1, IAJC:! c d nno 1.: do ,,, v E:~i" y t hj. ng IAJI':~ would like to do . Tl1ere are t.h :i.ngs IAH:' want Lo do but. bE~CdLISE~ of the actions of the Leader of L2871 Jurw 10, 1988 Vol XL the Opposition the Province doe s not haVE! the money to do tJJhat we lJ.Joul.d have be!c,~n able-?. l:o do if' he acted as a true-blooded J\Jc.;!wfoundlander'. Mf~. SPEAKER: Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has elctpsed.

Petitions MR. MATTHEW S: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : l h e h o n . UH:! r"l :.i. n 'l s 1·.: f'! r' of C cH' <'! e r' Development and Advanced Studie s. MR. MATH! EWS: Thank you very lllUch, Mr . Specitk E!r' . T l:dkc~ gr'C'!c:ll: pr· :i.cle ancl 'it J.s a privilegE! this morning to prE!Sent a petition on behalf of approximately 1,000 residents of St. Lawrence and Lawn area. The prayer of the petition in essenCE! is: "We, t:he underslgnE!d, ask the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador t:o purchase or expropriate the St.

LawrE!nce Fish Plant, and to c.,\ttempl :. t.o gE!l:. l~he plant reactivated by next week, Monddy, June '1.31:h." As the MHA repre senting th e d·i.s tr·:i.ct, ( dtn VE:!ry plHa s<:!cl 1-:.o stand in th e Hou se tod ay and pre sc,~ n i: l:h i.s pt'!l:i.l i.on on beh< •\l. f of my consti l:uents. Let me say my o b l :.i. g c:\ i ·. i o n s ~; .i. n c o. b e "i. n g f i r' s t elected to represent the~ dis l:ri ct -Ln l9B2 ha s dltAJi.~y s bE~E'!I'l l:o put thE ! wishes of my constituents first, and 1-: o rna k c,~ r' ~=~ p r ('! s ~~ n l: c:<t t -Lon s accordingly. I guess, as we alJ. knot.~J in this No. 53 R2871

House, and most people in the ProlJi.nce know, IAJe hi;J.lJC:~ gone through a very difficult pe:~riod in the l:OIAJi1 of S1:. l.awrl~nce si.nc:E:~ LhE:~ fish plant 1.uas put therE'J in the firs 1: p1r'1CO i"!S a rc,~SIIlt of the,~ cJosuJ"e of the:~ Alcan Minl':1S. But th(:1 p1cll'l L IJ.JC\:; n(~lJE:H' f"lllly c.:ornplehH~. J t was only a fE!edeJn pli:lnt, fillot· .iny Fish •:·\nd SE~nc:l·i .ng the product on to Burin and Msrystown for pcickclginy ctnd freezing. As we all know, we had a new oper·at: .or· go ln a couple:1 of YE!ar·s ago and that operator, I guess, has failE~d. WE~ have:1 beE:1n ·in the process since the middle of April

part i c u 1 a r· l y try ln g to add r· e s s HH:1 issUE! with the current owner and operator, Mr·s . Rose T·ing, St. Lawrence Fish Processors, and at the same time, trying to feel the:~ waters to see if there is anyone inter·ested .Ln oper·al:ing the:1 p1anl: in the short --term so WE! can s a 1 v <·\ g :;1 "' s mu c h a :; p o s :d. b l <~ f r o 111 this CLIInlnent 'inshorc,1 fishing sedson . So, Mr. ;:)peakE!r', r I~JOIJ}d 1:i .!<E:1 Lo prc'!sent this pe.~t ·ltion Hds morning ;:-uld say, a:, l·.he ~~i .n:i.s-t:er of Fisheries (Mr .

Rideout) said in hi .s i'lnSIJ.JC:1r Loa 411C:1sU .on, IJ.JE! l'ldUI.:~ bE!l':HI in constant communications IJ.Jil :.h r·E:~pr·esE~nt·.ai ·.'i.vE:'S of thc,1 tOIAirl councils and the unions of both St. . Li:liJ.Jt'c,1nc~::~ and l.diJ.JI'l i·.:ry-Lng 1-:o address this very difficult issue . ThE! y d r <~ v r:H' y rnu c h up to date as of late yeste!rday after ·noon as wher<: ' 1.ue iH'E! IAr.ilh it now. Mr. Speaker, I 1.uould LikE! to table this petition and to go on record as suppor·ting ful ly thc,1 IAJishto~s of my constituents in St. Lawrence and Lawn. SOME HON.

MEMBERS : L2872 JunE:~ 10, 1988 UoJ XL Hear, hear! MR. W. CARTER: Mt' . SpE!C\ker. MR . SPEAKER : The han. the:1 member for· riAJ:i }l_ :i_ ngc"t(·.e . SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear·, hear! MR. W. CARTER : Mr . Speakf:,~r, I think IAJh<->.n Mr s. Ting arriVE!d in the ProvinCE! some Ylo1ars ;~go to take possession of U1at p1ant and the tiAJo plants on the Southu.JE!St Coast., I thl.nk shE• meant wel1. I think, and the minister· has !>a .. i.d this on a number of occasions in thE! House, that she was well received and her proposal met with the approval of "'1arg(~ nurnb(~r oF pE!Ople ln the towns affected .

But I do bE!}ieve, Ml". SpE!akE!F ', t h a i'.: IAJ e h d lJ <:' no IAJ c n 1 n C"! 1·.: o 1:. h e E! n cl of the road as far as Mrs. ling is concr:H'I'H;!d. rhe TTif:~rllber· for· I:: he district and t.he rniniste1" can talk all. they 1 i. k r~ . M r· .

S p E~ a k r::• r , i.: h ~::• problem that you are having now in ~>L. l.r'liAlrEHlCe, r'lnl'l I might add l::l-11:! answer the ministE!r gclVe me this morning i ~; aJ.rnost !.he id en'Ll ca l answer hE! gave me two I.UE•eks ago: 'Matters are progressing, negotiations are ongoing' and he is hoping to hav8 a successful conclusions to those negotiations v EH' y s h or· t l y . ' T h a t. is U1 f:~ <Hl s i)_JI:~ r· 1.ue got almost liAJO IAJeE!I<s ago, per·hc:'lps longer· . The problem, Mr. Speaker. is in lht :~ way thE:1 plr:.tnt IAJi::l.S d.ispOSE!d of in the first instance.

I suppose fl"i. nd ~d g h ~-: .is fine, but rnay be:' WE! can learn a Jesson from what~ hi:'ipp!:1rlC;!d IAJhl;!l1 !:hE~ to Mrs. Ting. Of bE?. obwi.ou~; notJ.J to No. 53 pl. d n '!-: IAJd S 9 i V E! n course, it rnust ·the 111i.n-:Ls b'!r dnd R2872

lo the rnembe,~r and t.o all. thl:1 people in the communi ties effecte!d that il: was absolutely wrong to give that lady clear, frE!e title to that plant. In LaiAm, of cour·se, we;! havt:~ cJ. different situation in that at 1 east Uw F is her· men ' s Co mm i. t b~ C:~ there, I presume, had thE! foresight to prevent that. sor·t of a situation from developing. The plant in Lawn was leased to her under certain conditions. But .i.n t.he St. l .. at;..Jr~~nce plr:~nt, r"'r.

Speaker·, the rE!Sponsibili ly fot" t.uhaL hr:1s happ~~ned rl-):;1: sque1r·eJ.y on the::~ Min:istE:'r of Fisheries shouJ.der·s, c1nd T 511ppose tfldiJbl'::~ +:oo E:!VE:!n to a gi"E:~ater· E~xt:ent on the s ho 11 J. d f:'r' s of the nwrnb er· ~~Jho rC:!pre::~sents thr.lt district.

It does not. make sense a facility wh'i.ch cost the taxpayer·s of Hr.i.~; P r· o v :i n c e , I b e l i e v e , i n e x c e s s of $3 rn-i.llion shottld bt::! j IJSt handed over to this lady who came in here, no doubt with good intentions, but certainly without a proven track record ln fish processing, to have just handed o v e r· t h a t fa c i li t y t. u h e r· , M r· . Speaker, to my t.uay of thinking is entir·ely wrong . Of cour·se, t;..Je are now seeing the folly of what happened and the people of St. Lawrence are paying for it. Mr.

Sp~::~akr.-:!r', the,1 rrri.nis 1-.(H' 1-.hi.s morning in reply to my question indicated all of lhe peupJ.e in St. l.awrence are well aware of what is happt:!l'l "i.ng. Th~11J Sf'!e,~m l:o bE! hdppy t;..Ji t:.h thE~ progrE!S s be'ing made and dt"e conh~ni: t:o ll:1t l:h i.r19:; Ld!<f:~ thE:!il" norrn01J course,'. Well, I l-:h:i.nk h<'! :Lndi.cdh:1d I;..Jor·ds Lo l.:l·ldL effect. The councils, I bE:~lieve.;! hE:' :;;:\i.d, and Lhe l~lor!<r;!r':> dnd unions know what ·.is going on 1: h (:~ lj c:\ p p ~~ d r' ·t 0 b ~1 h d p p lj IAJ i. [': h :·:he cHld I:. he L2873 June 10, 1988 Vol XL progress bei.ng mdde.

Wt1ll, lc~t: rne LE!l.l the trLinister ·, I met with a delegation yesterday of peupl.(;~ fr·orn St. Lat.ur·ence. I believe thE!':/ might have mE!t w:.Lth i:hE:~ rn·in:ister. I think thE!IJ a1"e the instigators of this 840-name petition, a copy of which was given to mE!. ThE!IJ are not at a11 h a p p y IAJ i l: h t;..J h a t L s h a p p e n i n g , n o r· arE! they as L.UE:1ll inforrnE!d as l:hE!Y sho11ld b~.-:1, Mr. 3~H~dkl'!r', on LhE! progress of negotiations. Thr~ tni .n'i.st(:!r', o·r cour'sr,~, ln LhE! pr'E:1arnble t·:o pet'ition fa::i.lE!d t:o rn e n t.:i. o n , M i" .

S fH:! i.~ k C:! r , o n E! tJ E! r 1J :irnportcHtl: point and th<:lt is that:. th~1y <H'~:! ds k.i.ng I'. he GaVf'!t'l'lHlt'!l'lL of Canada to pur·chaSE! or· E!Xpr·eJpriatE! l:ho l-i.d1 plant-. Jn St. l..dwr'E!I1C~~ and to get the Government of 1\JP.I~iFOIJnd.J.c:tnd dnd l .. al:n·ador· t.o purchase or expropriate HIE! plant i.n Sl:. Lai.IJrE!I'lCC:! c'tnc:l 9C '!·I:. 'che planL back in operation by Monday, June 13. NotAJ, l:.hi'lt datt1, I pr~~Sl.lllle.;!, .is not just plucked from thin air and 1.1 s "~ d to cl r d rna t: i. z (~ t h ~~ .L rn p o r· tan c e of the peU.tion. Mr.

Speaker, the fact of thE! rna t t e.;! r· is ll·l.i s is a v E! r ':1 u r· g E! n t matter. There are altogether, I suppose, more than 500 wor·ker·s and fishermen in the communities a.,=· F <:1 c b~ d that <H' o d e p e n d L n g o n L he reopening of that plant. I g -L v ~~ l~ h P ITI.i n i. s L l~ r· F u l. 1 c r· e cl i t .. I am sur·e he is t.uorking hard to l·. r y r.l n rl g c:! t t h E~ pl. a n 1: reaci:ivclted. But it is qui ·l:E! obtJiow; nOIAJ he :i.~; not. IAJor·k.ing h<H'd enough or Tllaybe hE! is taking the IAJr'OI'lg 1.:.:\c 1:.

HOIAJ J.ong Ci'\1'1 the~ minister continue to be at Lhe rner'cy of Lho fur·nH~r· cq:>(.;!r·aLor·? Again, without suggesting that IA.IE! d o d n 1J i: h i n g 1'. o d .i. s c r· E~ cl·i ~~ L h E! Pr·ovinCE! or· to 'injurE! in any t.~.my L h 1'::~ ·i n n o c e n L b ':J :; '1:. d n d e,, r s , 1·: h c;! No. 53 R28'73

cr·edltor·s of Umt co1npany, T contend the minister· should set a deadl.i.ne. If rH?.gotiati.ons t'lre not concluded by that date, and I l:hink UH:1 da'l-:<:1 --Ls l<Hl\.!1 ovc:H'dtH:1, by the way, 1/JhE:Hl he shouJ.d have done t: h i ~; , 1: h ~:.111 T 1.: h :i. n k L h f:1 n6 n :i. ~; h:H' shouJd take.;! 1.uhatever act·ion js n f:' c e s s r'l r· y . J f t: h d 1:. Ill f~ i:l n ~- b r i. n g i n 9

an act or a bill into the 1 .. ~! g 'i. s l a 1: u r t:1 g :i. tJ i. n g hi rn l: he i-.wthodty to maybe, for thE! 1.uant of· r'l beU:er· l!lCH'd, l:o c'XF>t'opr:i.d l:e that plant for use, for a stated pt:!r'iod, thC:!I'l T Ul'i.nk l:hE:1 rn"i.n-Ls'l.:er· should lake that action. Certainly, M1~. Speai<E!r, L~Je cannot al.J.ow that s i tua -L· .. ion l:o dr·ag on, as it is dragging on. I think the rninlst.E!r' should st::1r·iot.Jsly cons ·Ldc:H' that.

If The Expropriation Act under which we now operate does not allow an expropriation for use w:i thout affect .Lng the cr·edi tors of that company, then I would strongly suggest to him he introduce the necessary amendment to the act u..Jh.i.ch IArill E:1ndb1E:1 hirn to do that. I can aJ.rnost Speaker, Lhr.ll ·. :.ide, cc.;!rtainly d o (?. v 1:.1 r y Ud n 9 expc;_~dite thc:1 an1endrnent .. M R . ~3 P E A I< E I~ : OJ"dE-)1", p]ease! 1'-1 R . W .

C A R T r:: I~ : assur·e him, trH~mbt!rS on our party, Ml". {-. h ·.i. s would i.n i. t:s po1•1er• to passage of that Tn concltJsJ.un, l stippori: 'l:hi.~; pel:it ·ion, naturally, and I L~Jould again dsk thH rJJ:Lnlster· to do what has to be done to make sure the plant is put back in operation without any further delay. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I have just. had an oppor·tuni.ty to l..2874 JunE! 10, 1988 Vol XL J.ook ,;d ~. thi.s pet.i i:ion. I u..Joul.d like to draw han. mernbE!rS 1 d. 1:. i:. t.~ n i:. i. o n 1·: o a n u rn b e r · of rna t t e:1 r s in it.

NumbE!r one, it is not a p e l: i 1·: j. on 1: o L h :is h o 11 . H o us t:1 , e1 point IAJE:1 have menti.oned on a n 1.1 rn b <:1 r· o r o c c <9. s ~i. o n s .

I 1·.: ·i :; i!ll s o 1 demanding 1 and a pc"d:ition is not i:l cloJn<Hlcl. lh:i.rciJ.y, [ h;:we ~>OtfiE! doubt aboiJt.: Luhether· it. is in order· b <:1 c '" 11 s e i. l: i. ~; <:·1 c '1:. u clll y as k i. n g for· Funds, eithE!r dirE:'ctly or i nd ·J. r e:1 c t: J. y . lleauchE!SrlE!, pi:lgr;:1 212, Sect.ion 685, Paragraph (3): "The HousE:' t~d .ll rt:1ft.ISC.;! ·l·.o rece-Lve any petit . .ion that directJ.y asks for a gJ~ant of m o n r~ y o u t: of HH.;! p u b 1. i. c r· e v E! n u E! s unJ.ess such grant has fi1~st bE!E!n r·ecornrn~~ndE~d by thC:' Cr·otJJn." t think, as far· as the concerned, we should just th'i.s fur·ther, by leave.

MR. TULK: House is discuss Mr. Speaker, I would likE! to corrHn<cHlt on Your· Honour· 1 :; r·tding, although I SE!E! the GovernrnE!nt l·lotJS<:1 Ledd<:1r ·i.s no1.u thEH'C~ and l.he Minister of Career DevelopiTIE!nl. and AdtJiYincr:!d ~)i'.tJr:l :i.(:1S is tht::H 'e ds 'JJE!l.l.. MR. SPEAKER : The han. the member for Fogo . MR. TULK: [n spiLH oi l4Jhr:d: Your· l·lonor· has said, that this pEd:ition is not s 1-: r -L c i~. J. y :i 11 o r d e r· , T d o u b t l: h e people of St.

Lawrence read Se<:liJChE:1sne c:'Ver·y rltghl:: I:H~for·e thE!Y go to slet1p, but I do know thE!Y are concerned about their Fi sh plant and they want it ope ned . ~'llE! all know t•Jhdt. their· intent is, to have the governrnE!nt and thE! House tdi<E:1 action. MR. SPEAKER: Or· r:l ~?. r·, p 1 c;!i~ s C.;! ! No. 53 R2874 -

T s the r :~ l. c,~ i:l v ~~ ? MR . TUI.I<: Am I allowed to make a point? MR. SPEAKEr~: The hon. member is poL nt of or·der, he speech on the St. plant at thr:~ rnom~~nt not in order . not making a is mak·ing r:x Lawrence fish and t.hal:: is MR. TULK : I am not making a speech. I arn saying - MR . SPEAKEr~ : The hon. member is out of order . SOMf HON . MEMBERS: Oh, oh! Mi~. TUI..K : Hoys, oh boys, oh boys! MR. FENWrCK: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKEr~ : Thr:~ hon. the rm~mber for Menihek . MR. FENWICK: I assume you are asking leave? MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order. MR . TULK: There is no point of order . MR .

FENWICK: I assume you ar'E! asking leaVE! to i n t r o d u c e UH "! p ~=d : i 1: i o n l"! v C"! 1'1 t h o Ll g h it is irregular. Is that the question? MR. SPEAKER : V8s, leave of the House. Mr~. FHJWICK: T h e r e 1. s .t 1.::! i'llH ~ c:ondit:ion: We-:! Fr·o1n us IAJOUJ.d tlndc:!r one ,' l:i I<~'! Lo c'l d d r E:~ s s i. t r'l s I~J~)}],, IAJh:i .Ch I•JOIIJ.d 1 .. 2875 JUI'H::~ 10, 1988 Vol XL. r· e q t.d. r· e a F o u r +: h s p f.~ a b,~ r· o n i. l·: . If the House is willing to do l:ha L, lAIC:~ IAJoulcl be qut l:·E! happy- to give leave to have it addresSE!d, c,w(>.n though :i.l: is :i.r·regul.r.lr. MR.

SIMMS: Mr· . Speaker·. MR . SPEAKER: The hon . the Pre!sident of thE! Council.. MR. SIMMS : Mr. Speak<- >.r, 1 thLnk that :is a form of blackmail which is not p(H'rn-il:i:ed r::tnd not: · acct:~ptablE! t.o the House. The normal rul es apply. v~e arp ~;i.HJply resp ecl- .. Lng Your Honour's rul ·ing, which is an aCCI.I('dl-:c:! OI1E!, Obl.J:i .ously, b111':. l::hl,' Opposition HousE ! Leader ha s agrE! E! to gilH~ J.P.r'\VC'! -· MR. TULK : 1 l1k\ s abo u t -1:. o . MR. SIMMS : ~~ e 1.1. , he '~'' '' s abo 11 L: to g i. v e::' 1. e::' ave .

We are! prepared to giVE! leave, but 1-.:he ncH'IIIal ruJc:•s IAJ:i.'U . apply: Tt~.Jo speakers to one sidE! and onr:' spc ,~aker on thE:~ other· sidt->.. That is the normal rule. The two hon . rnernbe::~rs iH'~~ not pr·~~pared to g1nant leaUE!. MR. SPEAKER : Is there leave of the House? MR. FENWICK: If you arE! asking is thE!rE! leave t: o d o i. 1:. , IAH :! h i:·\ v e t. o 1 d L h e Government House Leader and the Offiti8l Opposition Hause l.eader we think it is appr·opr·iate it bE! cl is c 11 s s C'! d , l:m 1: w :• t: h in I< i. l is appropriate it be discussed by all p d r· 1-.

"i. f~ ~; 'i. n 1-.: h ~~ H o u s e . l1~ c,' , obviously, w·i 11 not not a c h<Hl c E! l:o Sf>E:~c:-\k l:o i.l:. LJE! IAJOII1d li.ke t.o spt:~ak to :L1: and IAJE! lAJould like to ~;uppcn·l-. ·.i.l.:, bt1!: J.r '•IC:! <H'r:~ not No. 53 R2875

go.ing to be glven leav(,~ 1-:o speak, in violation of the rules, we will not g.ive leave to have .it discussed any further. MR. STMMS : Every petition in the House? MR. FENWICK: Yort hi'\ve yortr ter'His. or· say no. U . l11 e r· ag r· e P. r'IR. TUI..i<: On a poj nt uf order· . MR. SPE."r'IKfR: A po-i. n L o f o r d t~ r , t-. h t~ h o n . l ... h e rnE~rnbr:11" for· Fogo. MR. SIMMS: It .is blackrna il . MR. TULK: Am I given to understand the peopl(:! of St. LatJJrence do not have their petition presented to the House, that leave has been withdrawn by the hon. gentleman because he cannot speak? MR.

FENWICK : Yes . MR. LONG: We ar·e asking for leave to speak . MR . SPFAKFR: Ordt'!i", plet'\Sl:'! T h (,H' E~ ·i.;; <:1 n j_ r-r- e g ttl d r· j_ L y :i. n i·.l-l"i. ~; pe"lit:ion and th(,~ s::i.mp]est tJJ<'lY to d e i:\ J lA I j_ l". h l. h (~ l"fli:'l l.: 1-. 8 T' i. S b y J. !) i:'l V t! of the House . If leave of the Hor.t sE ~ j s gran [:()d, r t.~dJ.l ca11 on thE.~ hon. the:~ Minister of Fisheries. MR. SIMMS : Leave! Agreed! MR. TULK: You have leave from here . MR. SPEAKER: L2876 June 10, 1988 Vol XL I c:'lm not sur·E~ what 1~.he han. the member for Menihek's position is. MR. FENWICK: Mr.

Speaker, the concerns of thE! p(>.opJ.e of Sl.:. l .. at.~Jr'tHlct:! are 'nore important than E!Ven our gE!t ting a chanc(,~ t:o supporl .: :i.'l:., oi.t·. l.s obviously on the record that we do !; 1.1 p p or· i: ·i. "l: so t~H,~ 1·: hE! r 1:>1=- lH' 1":' g tv''! leave to the other

partie s. L,J r-~ \· h :i. n k l: h ·i. ~; i. :; r:1 par· t: :i. c u l. a r· l y nasty li.Jay of doing bus"inE!SS. WE! g d l) 1'.! J. (~ c'l ~J e l". 0 c h i!l n g E:~ L h E! r· u 1 E'! s . We think they should have been gracl.OIIS enough l:o d1l.OtAJ us l:.o speak to the pet:i.tion as well. If thE~Y lo~.J<Hli.: l:o be pro' tty about :i.t·., J t is up to them. We will not dE!ny the people of St. Lawr ence-?. thE! opportunity to have thEd.r concer·ns hear·d. So you have your leave . MR. J. CARTER : On a point of order . MR. SPEAKER: A poi.nt of or·dr:~r·, UH>. hon . thE! member for St. John's North . ~!JR. J.

Ct1RTER : I think thE! solution to ou1n d J. J. (;! I"IIHid :i. ~; 1.".0 d .J.l. OIAJ \:: iri. S p (~ 1:. i 1: . .i 0 n to be heard and thE!n, aftE !r it ha s bE:~Pn heaind, if l:h1 ~ lflf!nli:)(H' for· Me:~nihc~k or that CC.H'I'lN' pc1rt.y down tl·tEH'(:! ''l<'lnl : l:o ~;pc~ak, l.e+·. l::hHITI ask leave to speak and it may very ''Jell bE! •,:JrrHlLPd l:o l.:hl:~lll. MR. SPEt1KER : Order, please! L~::~ <~w<:~ hi'\s recognize the F -i. s h c r· l. (,1 s . MR. fUDEOUT: b c,~ r,' n hon. granted. I the Minister of Thank you, Mr. SpE~aker . No. 53 R2876

MR. WARRFN : Corne on now, gJve it l~.o t.hf:Hn. I'-1R. RTOFOUT: T tAli l.l. not be l·.empb;!rl . be, but I tAdll not. be. eclrly 1n the morning. I COtJJ.d It is too Mr. SpC:~ak(~r I fir·st of clll. lcc~t ITHc~ say I am pleased to haVE! an opportunity, by leave of the House, unfortunately, to say we have been working very, very diligently, despite LAJhat the hon. gentleman fr·orn TLAillli.ngr.ll:e (Mr· . W. CartE!

r) tried to intimate in his r·ernarks this mondng, i.n concurrence with the people of St. Lawr·ence and Lawn, to r.1ddr·ess this matter as quickly as possible. Mr· . SpE:~al<er, you can take a long -'i:e:~rnt approach or you c.~n l:.:-1ke a short.-te:~tnrn approach. Governrnc->.nt: h d s d E:~ l 'i. b r->. r' d i: r,~ J. y c h o s l:' n "1: o 1: i'l kc,, a short-term approach to the problem Fdc-i.ng !31" ·.. l.atJ.Jrt~nu~ dnd l_atJ.Jn dl: thE:! rnorn(~nt, bE~ causE! othE:!r options, i. n c J.u rLL n g l: h r:~ opt J. on , "i.

F i. 1:. lAIC:' r e to be:~ acc(:~pted - that is anothE!r si.:or·y that tAri .l.J. havr~ to bE:~ addressed at another time - of purchclse or the opllon of expropriation, certainly the o p t .i. o n o F p u r' c h d s ~~ IAJ"i t h o u t d willing seller is an option which rnay not occur ver·y, very quickly. The option of expropriation, if government were to take that procedurE!, is not a short-term thing. It is not someth ~ing tAJhich can happen just because the legislature passes a piece of legislation. I happen to have gone through, Mr.

S p e a k e r , a n e x p t' o p r· i. i:l 1: j_ o n p r· o c e s s in b:~rms of the asbestos property ·Ln 8<:·1"i .r:~ Verl:r:~, .:~nd I knot~J the-:! legal r·am:ifications r->.ven after t.he 1 .. C::~ g :i. s l. a i: u r C::' has 1:! x e r c 'i. s f:~ d i. l: s const:i l:ut:i.onaJ and legitimate r -Lg hi ·; l::o P•'l:; s J.egi s la Li.on. I !<notAl 1 .. 2B77 Jum~ 10, l9B8 Vol XL of the J.r,~y.'ll placed in f ·i. n <.'11 :i. z d L ·i. o n order . I br:tr'i"i .(:~r·s 1~1hi.ch c<'ln be front of the of 1··.ho knotJ.J expropr'i .cl h. on it from c,~xpE:H':i.l c~ncr:~.

This goVE!t'l'llri!'Hlt. knot.us it from E!Xperi<:~nCE!. So outn goal has bc,HHl, Mr·. ~3peai<fH', l:.o gr'!t a short-term solution to the problem facing t:l'w pr:~ople oF St. LatAlr'E:Hl ce and Lawn e:1nd, then, haVE! the ti1TtE~ n e cess a r' y 1:: o tA.Jo r· k on a 1 on g u r' t e nn solution. So I do not agrE!e at a11 w:ith the obser·vai: .-lon s of the hon . gent .lc: ~man from TwilJ.ingate, that we ar'E• not t: d k -L n g t h t:! r' :i g h t d p p r· o a c h . We a r' E! taking the right approach.

We alnE! i.:ak-i.ng l:h1->. only leg.i.t.imal:t ~ approach which can be taken at t.his rnornc~n'L: to (~nsur·~ ~ l:.hE :~t'E:! ar 'E! employment opportunities in St . U'lt~Jr en c e .:., n d 1.. •'WJn i:. h "i. s S u rrun ('! r· . Purchase and expropriation would not: necessi'lr 'il.y rni'lke lhi'lt. c'l real ·ity . 1 know tha t from 1,~ x p E:~ i'' i. u n c e . ~\1 e h •'llJ e l: o J. cl '1-·. h d t L o the representatives of the r;o,nrnun 'i.l:y dnd l:h~~ r·r, ~pi "E:~sent .cd: i.ve s of the union. We hr-lve rnade substantial pr·ogress, no!: tn f.:t~Jo tJ.Je(:'ks, Mr' .

Sp(:~etker ·, as the hon. gentleman intimated, but in FotH' days, becausE:' thE~ o l.:hE~r· party did not get to the table tHl ti.l Monddy, b1.tl IAJC ->. had bEH>n negotiating seriously days, eV(cHl"ings, i:lnd n Lghl:".s OVE!r' l:.h(~ las l:·. four days . We have rnadE! pr ·ogr·r:~ss. I do no 1:". k n OIJ.J if Uw r' e ,,_Ji 11 bE! a successful conclusion . I hope Hwr·e tAJ~i.ll be~. Wcc~ IAJ. il.J leave no stone unturned to ensurE! thEH'E! is. Rui· ·. ~~~r.: ~ i:H'(. ~ rio i.ng our b t.~s t .in a very d:ifficult sit .uation, LAJith 1-:.hE:~ help of lilY coJ.leagtH~ h(>.r'r;!, to get this matter resolved.

I t.u:ill say g~:!n·l ·.leHtdn, "i.n No. 53 this to 1: J. o ~; in g . thE! hon . He +:.al.k~~d R2877

about the hinds igh I~ of the people of Lawn in not allowing their facility, tA.Jhich my depart.Jnent ov.ms, by the way, to get into the same sil:uat.-Lon. Well. the fact of the matter is, Mr·. Speaker·, Lho Fdcil i.ty in La1.1.Jt1 OtAmed by my department tA.Jas lease previously t.o H.B. OatAH:1, and it was the people of Lawn who i ns-Lst ed t-:hr.1i: llJE! br·odk t:ha1:. l.l~dse and give that Facility to Mr·s. T-i .ng. ~>o, h:i.nds-Lghl: i.:; ·u~H:HJI:y/lt.•Jnnl:y.

Few thE:1 pE:1opJE:1 of S·t. l..i.'.liAJrr::HtCE:1, it is twenty/twenty; For the people of Lcw.m, it is ttAJ~Hlty/ttA.Jenty; fot" t: h i,1 go v c;! r nrnr~ n 1.:, .i. l'. :i. s tiAH:HJty/tv.Jenty. rh~1 facl~. of t.he 1natl:er i.s, Mr. Speaker, Mrs Ting, to give an l n d .l v i d u a 1 lAJ h o 1: d . e d h e r· d u e , h d s invested in excess of $1.5 million l n a p 1 a n t w h :l c h h i:l d n o f r· (H:1 z i n g when she arrived here, in a plant tA.Jhich was a shell and had nol:hlng onJ.y a building L4.lhen she arrived here.

Shr:1 has mr:~de cons-ider·,;tbl.t1 improvement, money wise, capital tAJ i s r::1 , t o t h a t. fa c i l it y w ~d. c h , · i. n the long-term, will be to the benef'Li: of th<-:1 p~wpl.c"! of St . Lawrence. That i.s the deal this gov~~rnmc,,nt toge:1 ·l:her. MR. FfNWTCK : i.s i:ry:Lng i:o p11 L: Mr·. SpeakeJ", couJd I have"! lr::1ave to sper:·'k L:o th(~ pl:1l::i.l .·ion? Mr\ . SPI:f'IKEr~ : Th e hon. l:l'lC:! Tlll:'nlbl:!r' For· Meni.l ·lt=Jk (Mr. Fenwick) asks for leave of the Hot.tsr::1 Lo petitton. Does member hr:~ve l.ectve? SOME HON. MEMB E f~S : By leave. spul'lk tl1e L2878 June 10, 1988 1-.o hon.

U11:1 thr:~ Vol XL 1'-1 R . S P E A K E R : The han. the member for Menihek . MR. LONG: Hear, hear·! MR. FENWICK : Thank you, Vl"!ry rnuch, Mr·. Spc"!aker . I'-1R. SIMMS: This is not donE! as a cond·i tion. MR. FENWICK: f knOIAl that :, 1~10 g ;::tvt~ you unconditional rights l::o r· (:~:in L rod 11 c :~ dl'l ·t rnp ~:~r·F ~:~c l~. peti tj on. MJ". Speai<E!r, the rec-1son IAJE• IAJOUJd lJke 'l'.o addr'E:!~;~; -Li·. :i.s bE~cau~>f~ of two reasons. r-1R. J. CAf?TER : A point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A poln 1: of ordEH', the hon . ml'!tni :H'!r for St. John 1 s North. MR. J.

CARTER: It should be understood and clearly acknowledged by the lfH>.mbHr's of that conwr· party th .is is particular and specific leave not dependent on anything they did, or might do. Unless they arE! IAJilli.ng to acknotAJlE:~dge 1-.hc,L, I will not give leave . fJIR. I_ONG : Rrilliant intervention! Of COUI"SC:~ L<J8 c'\Ckl'lOI!Jl.edgc:' .' ·'· .1.1 .. MR. SPEAI<FR: I d o no I: 1: h .i. n k t h t.! r :~ i. s ct p o i 11 t: of orde1n there bu L if the hon. ITIE!TnbE!r l!li.i:hdr'dlllS l('!c'\Ve, l:he hon. rnE :!mbc -:lr' must stop. MR. FENWICK: I do not bl:1l. 'i. ~1V~~ he d:'i.cl.

I th ·ink he indicated certain conditions. Wt~ gavE:~ 1.tnconcli.l~.lonal 1ei.'IVe l~.o No. 53 R2878

i.ntr·odiJCe l.:he peU.L .i.on. tl: was not conne~ctE:H:I with any requr:~st to s FH~~ d k 0 n i. {: ' s 0 () n t h c<t 1: b a s "i. s ' T wouJd assume it colncide:~s with the cunc:lil::i.ons -l:hf:~ lllE!Inber· for Sl-.. John':. Nor·th has outlined. MR. SPE!1Kr::R : The hon. the membE:H' for· Menihr:1k. MR. FE'NWICK: Th( ,H'e ar·e jus 1: tt.~.1o t.hings IAie lAIOUl.c:l l:ike to say about it. We had a c h cHl c e 1:. o HIE~ e t. IAJ.i 1·: h 1: he sa me committee who I think met with the Minister of F:isher• .ir:~s and also with the Opposition Pa~ty.

In talking to them, it is obvious wr:~ should not br:~, I think, particularly vindictive in the s e n s e of a n y r· e a c 1: :i. o n 1: o R o s e T i n g because, in talking to the people of St. Lawrence, she c:lid go in there and make a lot of -Lmpr·ovEHnenl:s. ::Jhe put 'i.n a plah:~ freezer clnd quite a few improvements which were really nc-~cessary. It is a much better· p J. a n '1-: i:\ !> i'l r e !> Ltl. l: o f +: h r~ act .ivJties she has exercJsed. I had seen . the plant befor·e that and J kno1 .... 1 the pr·obJ.ern:; they hr.~d.

It was reaJly a very difficuJt plan+: IJJi.l:holJi.: !'I Fr'E: 'ezing sect-. -i.on to be ablE:~ to ope:~rate properly at dll.. So, 'in i:l sEHJse, shE~ L:ouk i.~ shell of a building and produced a fish plant out of it. No1.1.1, I undr:H·stand therE~ LJ.Jas closE~ to $1.5 or $2 million necessary to do t.:hat and thr31.t t.:hat rnonc->.y is part of a mortgage on it, and so on, in IJJhich casE~ 1 th ·ink .i.l: :is appropriate that, t.~Jell. the value at. least . i.s ther~?.. ThE?. par·t. to~.JE~ were worried about was there was a 1nor·tgagt?.

For $1 or $2 rni .J.l. i.on Fr·om which the money was taken and put s om(~~ to~.J h ~'!t' e e 1. s e , b u i-. r~ tri. d EH1 ·1".1 y , since it was put in the operation, 1_2.879 Jllrll:' lO, 1.9BH lJo l X I. I I: hi . n k 1~1 E! h i'llJ r-:! ,;, J. c-'! g .i. L :i. rna t t~ rig h t:. to say that at lr:~as t tAle <:H'E! in a rrut c h b ~;:~ l: 1: ~~~ r· p o ~; 'i. 1.: '.'i. o n F o r· · 1:. h C-l. fut.ur·e of St. I awrence thcll'l we~~ ever h~ve been before.

The other thing I would like to lrt~?.n-1:-:i.on !:hough, ·i.n say in g l:hal :, ls if you remember when Fisheries Pr·oduci:s r.nl: .e~H·nati.oni'll IAJas privatizing these plants, or sr:~l.l. "i. ng i.Jwm ofF, 1.1.1hen i.t lAJdS sU.ll a ClnOL!.Jn corpor·ation and t:.her'E~ t;,lets still some~~ contr·ol. Fr·om the provincial and federal gover·nrnE~nl:, tAlE:~ said al: l::hE! tilfle this was not a sdlution to the pr·oblern of Sl:. Lt'llo~.JrE:~nce, Lat.~.m, Port aux Basques, Isle aux Morts dnd of I:: he~~ o l::hHr f' i. s h pJ.an t.s privatized.

I am willing to predict right here to d i:1 y , and 1 t hi. n k 1·: hE?. M i. n :is t E! r· of FishE !ri .es wiJ.l not bet. against rnr:~ on Ud.s, 1:1'1·'11: of' Uw :dxt.E!< ->.n plants that FPI pln'ivatiZE!d, lAJE! rnay n o t h .:-llH! h E! "' r' d f r· o rn t h f?. l. ;;, s 1:. o f the onE!S which are in difficulty o'l !) d r' e s I I 'I l'. () f L h ~~~ f •7( c 1: l: hi:\ t F .. i. s h prices are down considerably. Two l•ll::'f~k~ ; or·~~ monLh fr·orn 1'10IJJ IAI~'! may hear from other plants in the sarne probl.r.~111. Thi:'IL, [ +:hi.nk, i.s important to understand .

FPI solved their problems, they bE'!Ccllllt! ,:~ J.(~~i-HH:!l~, trJCH'e r~fi 7 .iclent company and they were able to f>r' ivai: i L e t h ~=!Ills E! l v E~ s ;:,1 s d r' e s u l t of it. accepl::ed them was problem. We I:: he the have nE!Ver, E!VE!r idea thai:: selling solution to thE! So we are sl::il.l back where we were two years ago. We still have to 1.1.10 n· y about.

F 'L s h quo+: as for· +.: h ~=! m , 1.1.1e sti.lJ. have to worry about l:hem g~::~tl':ing a dec~~n+: mar'k<~t ., lAIC: ~ st:ill have to worry about a good o p (~~ r· a t o r· , d n d oi. n +: h i'l +.: r' e s p E?. c t. , IJJ e support l:he pet'.ition because we 1\Jo. rd 1~2B79

think this may bE! one of the few IAiays l:o break the log jarn which currently exists and find a new oper·a.i:or· L'Jho will bt?. able l:o br· .Lng it on stream and provide a good liv:ing For· Lhe peoplt~ of ~H .. LatAirE!nce. MR. LONG: Hear·, hear·! MR. StMMONS : Mr·. Speak e1". MR. SPF(.)IO-R : ThE:~ hon. l.:he:~ ml'.!lf]bf'!l' For l-or LIHH ~ HEH·rn:.i.tage. J\11~. SJMMONS : w i. l: h l: h I;! 1. t~ i:\

l) e 0 f +: h e H 0 I I s ,,~ ' r wo u J d J i k e to havE! a few wo r· d s to sdy on l:he pE!i·.J'Li.on i:\S ,~,l:~ll, Mr·. ~)pE:~aker·. MR. SPEAKER: By l E:~ a v e:~ , t h c,~ h o n . t h r:~ rn e. r11 be. r for Fortune- Hermitage. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Agt'C:~c,~d. MR. SIMMONS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I want to support the prayer of the - MR. TOBIN: I am going to speak on it l.:oo . Ml~. SlMr'IONS : I h a v e no d iff :i c u 1 t y IAii t h a not he r 1n,~rubor sped.ki.nl] on Lhis FHc~t'iLi.on.

I thJ nk j t :is an impor·tt-.lnt. p r:~ Lit i. on , on c,' o 1- L h (,~ 1no r· (,~ :irupu1"tant onE:!S to havE~ con1e befor·e 1':1·\"i . ~' H o u s e . I t~kll'l L i: o s 1.1 p ~'> o r i·: i: h P p 1" a y EH' of 'l h e p e t :i t j o n p r e s e n t e d b y rn y f r' i. e n c1 f r· om G r· d n d R "' n k a n d jn tAihose dist1"ict thE! fish plants at ~3::.. LdiAII"(:!nCe c:Hld l.dl•ll'l f·i .nd themselves. L2880 June 10, 1988 Vol XL I thought, Mr. Speaker, the t·'l'i. rri s h~ r of F i s h e r .i e s ( M r .

Rideout), the usually c()mposC:~d ·and CC\lm Min .is 'tEH' of F i. sheri r:~ s, was protesting just a bit too much now. nH~ t'E?. is no c r·t1nr:~ hE:! re, except the cr:i.me of unernpJ.oyrnE!nt, t h c,~ u n c e r· t a -L n F u 1': u t' e b C.;! i. n g Fa c c,, d by thE! people of St. LaLAirE!nCE! and Lawn and the 1n-i.nisb?.r ts nor·tnally -I am talking about thE!

M:inistE!r of F i. s h C:! r· i.e s , of co u r· s ('! reasonably Forthcoming on matters 1 1 n cl C'! r· hi . s j u r· i. s d :i. c t.· . .i. o n . [ l h o u g h 1··. he tAJas a little bit too much o1·1 th•,' deFcHl!;i .vr~ jusi: notAl, alrnosl: ·1-.o thE! point of IAianting to bJ arue Lhe p (~ () p l. (;~ 0 r I . d IJ.II'l F 0 1'' :: h ~=· i r· initiative in asking that LhE• DatAJE· r:onl:r·,:qcl: be 1:E!t'Jnl .l'ld 1:Pd SOifl(~! YE:!C:H'S ago. The people of Lawn are not to b 1 d rn c,~ f o r L h ·i. !; i s s u c,~ , 1'. h i s dilemma, no I" are thE! people of St. l.aLAirencr,' .

Wh<.~l ·: lAIC:! ha\H?. hE!r 'e, Mr·. Speaker, and I am thinking p<H'L i.cularly of Sl:.. l..awr'('!nC('!, .is the caSE! of a community tAih.ich has ~H:~ e n d r a g g E:' d l:: h r' o u g h t h 1'::~ '"' o r· s t. economic plight you would wish on your IAJor·st enE~my . lt is just terrible IAJhat St. Lawrence has had 1: o g o t h r• o u g h .i n t e r· rn s o f rrri n i n g and in terms of the fishing ·Lndus ·tr·y. I beliE!Ve what my col1E!ague from Twi1.1ingate is rectll.y saying, or what I want to say as well, is t:hr.~l ".

IAIP !AI:i.:;h l.:hE:! lflin:i.s ·l".(~r· thP Vf:!r'y best in finding an exped·itious s o l. u l: i. o n I: o t h i. :; pro b l1:! n 1 "'' h :i c h t: h (.;! people of St. Lawrence and Lawn .:H'I,~ IJ.Ir'r-~·; U .Jng tAJ·i.th, as lliC~l.J. as I:: he pE:~ople in the communiU.C::~s fu1"thE!r' 1.1p l'.h1-~ codsi·. in LhP f~o~'E:' Sl.i~\ncht'! and Port aux Basques area whose f·ish pJ.dnl':s i:lr'P dl.~;o tlnd~:!r' thE>. wing of Mrs. Ting at the moment. We support thE! peti.~i.on and I No. S3 prayer of endor·se th~ I:: he R2880

cornrnen+.:s rn'-'ld!::~ by the gc,1ntlc,Hnan fr·orn T1JJi.lJ.ingatE:1 because they a1ne cd. m ~~ d "' t n o i: h oi. n g 1::1 l :;c~ '!: h <H1 l o o !ci. n g for, and finding, and helping dlong, a sol11 :·.ion 1-.o I.: he probli::~ln, M r· . S p E-) a kE:H· . SOME HON . MEMHERS : Hear, hear! MR . SPE'f'\KF.:R : S<:!l .. urc,1 Day, I calling for would like Or·dE!r':; of to IJJelconH:1 the to the galleries tuw n 'l: y .. t: h r· e t! students and their tlAJO teachE!rs F r· om S i. s h o p ' s Fa 11 s Pf~nt~~costr.ll Academy. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, h(:1ar·! Orders of the Day MR . Sir-1MS : Mr·.

Speaker, f:il"st rc"1ading, Motion 12 . Mot i.on, U11::1 hon. 'Lh~::1 Murd c:i paJ. Affclirs to bi .J.l., "fin f.lc:t To Mullic:ipalitjes Act." r"l.i. n :i. s 1· (,~ r· or introduce a f.irn,:!ncl ThE-) (RjlJ. No. S7) On moU .on, Bi] 1 No . ( S7) l"ead a socond fj _rst Li.n1e, ord1:1r:~d r't:hHI .:-\ Ljme on tomorrow. Motjon, the hon. t1'1(:1 Minister· of Muni.cipal Affa:i.rs l·.o :i.ntr·oducc,, a b:ill, "An Act To Incorporate The C'.ity Of Mount Pc"1drl.." (l'l:i.ll. No. 55) . On motion, Bill No . (SS) rE!ad a firs t. t i rn <-?. , or · d (:'red r· e ad a s ~~con d time on tomorrow. MR. SIMMS: Mr.

Speaker, we will move along now to Order 28, Bill No . 28 . Mot'i.on, sc-?.cond r·~~r:-u:Ung of i'l bi.ll ., I. 2 8 81 June 10, 1988 Vol XI. " A n A c t f~ c:~ s p e c 1: :i. n g Ct::~rtain P~nsions. 11 MR . SPEAKER: An '[ n c r• f~ a!> c:! Of (Bil,l No. 28) T h f! h o n . l: h C:! r"l :i. rl'i. s h:H' o F F .i n a n c c~ . MR. WINDSOR: r"l r· . ~) fH-~ r'l k ('!r' ' 1-. h i. s 1. :> d v (! r· y s tr·aj g htf OY'IJJal"d b:i 11, as annou n c E!d in i·hr:~ bL1c:lgot-. spc-~(:!ch S0111e ti111e ago .

I announced incrE!aSE!S of pE!l 'lS'i.ons 1:.0 p(,'t'StH1S I~JhO IAJE!Y'E! c"~rnployE:1d in var·ious aspE!cts of thE! p1.1bl. ·.ic ~;c ,~ r·v:i.ce:1 and 1~1ho IAJC:!I "E! receiving pensions from Lh e v~rious pension plans. rhey are listed in the scheduJ.e to the bill and lncludl->. The -'! PublJc ServiCE! (Pensions) Act, The Royal Nc-?.lAJfoundland Const.abu1iH'Y Acl:, Tho:! Uniformed Services Pensions Act, and so forth, including The Members Of The House Of Assembly (Rc,1t.ir··.i .ng AlJ.oto~JiH1C(~

S) Act, I am pleased to say, Mr. Speaker . It provides the basic j ncret-lSE! of 3 p E! r· c 1::1 n +·. . 111 .1 t. i. n r· ~=! s pons e to concerns that a nurnbe1n of persons IAJho t•Jer·~::~ e.i .i'.her· r~rnpJoy<:!d a long time ago, lAJhen salariE!S IJJer(:~ VE!I"Y l.OIAI ·i.n l:hF.! Puhl ·i.c Ser'lJice, or · suruluor benefits that were (-)Xi:t'(:11fiE!'l.y l.OIAI, IAIL1 hi:llH~ "i.nCr!·~a~:;t-:!d the m:inimum survivor benefit to $?. 700 I I~Jh 'i. c h I<Ji'l ~; r'l s :i. g tri.F "i. c a 1'1 I: incrE!ase, I think, of something in 1-. h (:1 o r· rl ~~ r· o f ~

t) o r l 0 p t:! r· c (;! n t. ..... 40 per cent, rE:1ally . WE! hi'.tVE! pro lJ i. de d d ~; 1 :i. r:h n g s c d 1 e s o t h a t persons who were pensionable on or befcH 't"1 DE~CE~Ini:H~r· 31, 1971 IAJOuld actually receive up to a 10 per c c:H1 t J. n c r f~ a s (:1 • T h e n t h e r· e .i s a sliding scale frorn ther·e on down to 1972, 1973, 1974 -, 1975, 1976, 1977 and 1978, so that any persons who were recelving a pension as of January 1 of 1978 but before April 1 of 1988, IJJi.l1 bc:1 rece.i.v i.ng 3 P'?.r cent. So, Mr. Spedker, iL pr·ovldes a No. 53 R2881

p (:~ n s ·Lon .i. n c r· c,~ a s c,~ f o r ,,,1 J. p <:H' s o n s 1.11ho ar·e receiving a pension fJnorn l:ht-:! Publ ·i.c Sr::H'vice, bu 1: i.t: provides enhanced amounts for those who are receiving very small amounts. particularly those who ar·e rece:~ i.v:ing ver·y srna l.l surv :i.vor benefits. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member· for· Gander· . MR. BAKFR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . W c,~ o b v i. o u s 1 y c a n s 1.1 p p o r· t 1: h i. s bil1 .

TherE! ar·e some things about. i. 1: t: h i.'l t s h o ul . cl b E! s a -:i. r.l a ·1--. l: h i. ~; stf.lge "in terms of t:.he:~ intE~nt of !-.: h c,~ b .i. 1 J. . ~~~ c,~ "'ll r· e cog n L~ e 1: h d t thE:H'e j s i:l tremendous unfunded J. i. a b :i. J. i. t y t: o ·1·. h c,~ P r' o lJ 'i. n c c,~ r· E:' .1. ,:~ I: l':' d to these:~ p~~ns:ion pJans, i:tnd this ·.-Ls b~~Cr:\IJS8 dOIAll1 +.:ht'OIJI:!]h the ye:~ar·s, as the-?. pE:~nsion plans camE:~ into exi.str.;!nce, ·1-.ht:•rc~ 1~1as no rt :!al governruent contribution.

The cont:r·:ibut.:-Lon, dS such, I SlJppoSE!, was the kind of thing that was lnves l:ed i.n l·:he devt~loprnent of U·w Province. The contribution of the employee l..uns also t'f:dnvesh:'d into the development of the Province, and that i:lvoided borrowing large sums of money and so on. In other words, the pension plan e x :i s t.c,~ d o n p a p t.;! r· . T h c.:! g o v e r' n me n -t. in contracting udth its employees to have these pens ·i.on plans, assumed the obligation of p r o v i d .L n g a c e r· i:i:\ i n p e n s i. o n i:\ n d SUJ"vivor benefits t.o the i n d :i. lJ t d u a l. s J n \J o J. v ~~ d .

So l:.hP golHH'nlll! :'l'l-l: J.s rnE:~Pt:i.ng l:h"i.s ob]jgatlon, evE:~n though t:her·e is i~h ·i.~> $2 b'i .1l"i.on Llnf"ttnded J:labiJjt:y. I undE:~r·stand thnt nouJ 1: h r,~ pens 'i. on p J. r:Hl ~' •'lr' o on a F 1.1 n d c:! rl basj s, cHld that -!-.his is something 1·:. h ~~ 1ni. n i. s i: e r· h d s 1: o do r'll lAd t: h ·L n negotjatjons IA.dth these groups as 1_2BB2 June 1.0, 1988 Vol XI.. L:h!::~Y corne up . I lAJanl:ed l·:o poJnl:. o1Jt that, flr·st of all. tAle understand on th-is sidE! that there is a huge $2 billion unfunded liability concerning these pension plans.

I also understand that, for thE! most p a r t , t: h e r' ~~ .i. s n o 1..u r· :i. t t: e n obJ.jgation on the paint of g o v c,n· n me n t t o p r o v .l d t~ t. h E! s E! incrt:~ases to pE!nsionE!rs. ThE! cost f 1 . . ] I . 1 o· .. J.Vl.l'l9 l:!SCd .. i:L : I.On C. dUSl'!S dr'E! built into somE! contract s, bul tht:!sc,~ I~JE!r( :! things l·:hclt- . ,i·i.d not: l':~xi.st a number of Yl:'eH'S ago . ~-)o -!:he i:.l~Jt) 1-acl ·.:s, l.:hen, IAH;! realize.

Number one. l:hc;!r(,~ is a I·. ;· ,,~ fl'll':~ n do 11 ~; 11 n f 1 J 11 d e r:l l. ·i. ~·\ b ·i. l. i. 1:: y ; number lwo, that this is an ex gt'd i. i.r.-1 pdyTnE:~ni:, U ·lt: ~l"l':~ is no d·.ir'I:'!Ct obligation, wrtthHl obligation, J.r,~gdJ obl:i.gdl.:i.on on the;! par·t. oF governmE!J'l"t, for· the most pc:1rt, to provide i:ht~SP :i.nct ·r,~clses. lloweVE!r, government does have.

I t~Jould s u g g e s L • d rno r· a l. o b l.i g <'l t: l on . simply becauSE! some,~ of 'lhE! things i:hal:. have;! happHned .ln t:he mPant ·i,ne could not have been forecast in the past . tlnd gover·nrnen't. has an obligation to deal with its <"~ rn p 1 o y E~ l~ s IAJ h o h a v c-:! p t' o lJ .i d E! d . ;i, n a lot of cases, a J.i.fE!U .rne of s e r v i. c e t. o l:. h t~ P t' o v .i n c e • IAJ h o h a v e been rE!Sponsible for thE! building of l:.hi.s Pr·ovi.ncl:!, and lAJho dr~~ now trying to exist on very smaJ.l pensi.ons.

The amount in the survivor benefits. as Hw rn:i .nistE:H' menl::i.ons, .is <'1 irJJ.n :i.J'fiUirl ellrlOUnt. of $2,700 per annum. Tha ·t is a very Sirli'll.l dlriOI .Jnl-., /\1r'. Sp~~i:lkl:!r'. II·. i.s $225 a month, a very smaJ.l ,:~HIOlll'll·. . i;Jc,~ d r· e gl . i~ld ·l·.o s (~ t:! 1:: he minimum is :i.n t:ht:'re and. in a lot o f c a. !; ~'~ s , i n c r· ,,~ d s e s l: h t'! s u r· v i. v o r benefits by up to 40 PE'!r cent. It is a fairly lr'lrge percentdge incr·ease, but sU.J.l a small amount of rnonPy. No . 51 f~2882

We support it, even though 3 per cent, for instance, to someborly who retired in 1978 is a very, very small amount . M~ybe lh e r·eason it :is so smaJ.J. :is because of L h c,1 1.1n f u n d ~~ d l. ·t a b "i i t-. y , .:-1 n d l:.l-1 r:! Mi n:i ster of F:i nance is thE:' om1 Li.lho ha s to ansiAJE!r for Hl<'~ ·l:. lt: -i_ <; '" vet"y, v«:H'Y small amount, and we I~JOI.Ilcl, in Lhe I'.E:11'1fiS or jus ·l:"i.CE:1 dnr:l 1.11 hat j_ s r· J. g h t and f ct i r to a J o t of 1:. h E:1 S 1,1 p ~:! 0 p J. (! I~J h 0 cJ !,' l) 0 1: I'! cJ d ].

J. [: h H ·i. i'' IAJOt"ldng l:.i.ves to thE:1 s«:~rvj ce of th .ls Pr'OLJ"inC(!, ruf:1l. l:haL "i.n l:h.:~l :. r.1spect maybe the amount should bE! l. i'lr' g lo! r· . Ry r:1nd large W1::1 t'C.;!COgn .i.ze L:he principle of this bill which is to increase, 1.~-1ht:1re t.hc,1r'c.;! ·i.s no d:ir·~:!ct obligation to increase, the pensions of 1-:hesc.;! pE!nsioner·s and, Mr. Speaker, we support it. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker·. MR . SPUlKER (Pdt'sons) : The han . the member for Menihek . MR. FFNWJCK: Mr· . S p c,, a k (:1 t' , t h '"L S h d S 01 l.

HIO S +·. become by nature a sort of h o 1.1 s e k «:~ e p ··i. n 9 b :i.l.l. . I t h ·i. n k .r. h d IJ c-:1 seen it every year that I have be1,1n :i.n Lhe I.E:'gislr'\l:llrc, i'lncl I tiLink it. hc~s b«:~t:!n :in l:he I . ~~ g :i. s l. d t: 1.11·' I'! f~ IJ E:' r· y y 1::1 r:-1 r· F o I" p r· o b a b J y t-. h e 1 i.~ s t. t· E:! n o r· f i f t P e n or tullc111ty Y8iH'S. ln thdl : r·especl:, it :is not an unu sual piece of l. «::1 g -i, S J i_-1 l. i 011 , bUt "i ~·. d 0 E! S 9 J.

V f~ US r:.~n oppor·tunJ ty, I think, to have -?. a bi. i·: of dc,1ba h~ dbou t UH '! publ i.e set~vice pE!nsions in general, the sc.;!r'le\5 of thc'!m, Lh«::! four· major· ones, and I think there are even a c o u p 1 C.;! o t h e r· s .i. n d .i c a t. e d a t UH,~ back here which are different. One of me IAJd s is t.he L.2BH3 the things 1~. h c~1 rnernb 1::1 r· Finane!':' that surprised for· Gander, IJJho critic for· the J 1.1 tH:1 1 0 , "I 9 H H Vol XL Official Opposition, saying that 1·: hi. s i s c'\ F u n d -~ d fH~ n ~d l )1'1 pl. a n .

I t. is not a funded pens:ia ·n plan, it i.s a pay -as -yoiJ ·-go p~ ~nsi .on plan which happens to have some sort of fund t.l'li'11: l~lr'l.~; <;'i".i:lrl:t:!d up -i.n 19BO to help government pay sorne of its obl .:i.g011::i .ons : I t:h ·i.nk l·.hdl: ·i~:; d IJt!ry :i.ntpor·l·:dni:: point to r'E!n'IE!mbE:'r, becausE! whE!n Hw rJJ·i.nis+ :e:~r · or :~.i. n<.-wcr:· "i.s tnak Jng cofl'lrnE!n1:.s and talking about thE! $2 b·i.Jl.

"i.on 11nfundHd J:i.<'lb·i .l.il·y or· whatever number he is using, it is not an Ul'1fllndHd li.ab"i.lti:·.y l.n the plan, it is the amount of money the goV(.;!r'tHfl<~nt l..I.J"i .l.1 l'lE!E!d .in LhE! future in order to meet its obligations i.t has incurred on be!half of thE! 40,000 or 50,000 or · 60,000 public employ ees who are current] y under the plan, or haVE! bc·!!c:H1 under l::hf~ pl.c.H1 and ar·e now retir•ed. That, I think, is VE!ry irnpor·t- .ant l::o r(~fiiE:~rnber· . OL:her1.~1ise, we might start scaring people into thinking that there is no money for the plan.

The day thE•rE! wi11 b c,1 n o rn o n E! y f o r· p u b l. i c s e r· u i c E· pensions is the d<:ly this Pl"ovinCE! gOE-}S l:)i:·lnkrllp-1":, qtd I:E! frankly, because that l..I.Jould be one of its h"i.\jhesl: obJ.j_g,:ll·ion~;, [ IAIOU'l.d flSSUTnE!, riE!Xt, p«::1d1aps, to payin~) 0 f f "i, l: !; F II 11 dE! cl d

d) l. . 0 1'1 1". h i3. l: basis, I think l..i.JC-?. can assUrrtE! thai~ . LhHr'o ·i.s dn :i.nc:or·r·r~1cl".n(:·s~:~ 'i.n l·:ht·:! kinds of COI TIITIC.;!nts that l..I.Jer·e madE! i:\~)()11-l: ·j t. The o l:l'1f:!l" po "i.n 1·. r:-1bout pe:n·haps should bE! rnade is '"Lt i::hat Lhat th e j_ n c r· o a s e i. n p e n s i. o n s r r o tn J a n u a r· y , 19 7 8 and · onward is 3 p E! r c E! n t . I think if onu looks at the inflation rate in the ProvinCE!, or ln ~he country as a whole, one wi.J.J. rE:1alize that that is still a small bit . undt!r Lhe actual inflation rate itseJ.f, maybe a fHH'.cont.agr,1 poi.11t of l'.:wo, dnd on that basis i:t still rrtE!ans that thE! 1\Jo. 1)3 R2B83

pensionel"S who ar·e r·ecelv:i ng this pension IMilJ dr.l :w.dly have "' J:ittJe less money each year in ord ~!r l::o kc~c~!p U10111Selvf:~S going. ThE:~ n:~ i. s o n E:~ o UHH' Ud n g I 1.1.10 ul d like to mention to the Minister of F lnancc~ tJJh:Lch h~~ rnay IAlant t.o do for us.

He recal]s that last year we had a big argument about the changes that were rnade to the Public Service Pension Plan with respect to the ability of i n d i. v .L d u a 1 s L o r ~?. l:'i. r' c.;! u n d (-H' t h e Canada Pension Plan five years earller and 1--.hc-:~ i;\C 1:-..i.ons l:akcH1 by th:i.s governmen-t:: initially to cut b a c k a r· b ·i. t: r· a r .i. 1 y o n p u b 1 i c s E:! r tJ i. c c~' pr:!ns'i onEH'S, then la-l:.E!t' the IAJi. i·:hcJt'diAli'\l fT'Offl i-:IV\-1: r:H1d -I.: hE:~ E:~ffol"ts ·to rc~1tur·n somE! of it.

I aTII noi: SIH'P i.F U1!'! nli.n-.i.si-_~-:H' :i.e; l:isten:ing to what I was say'ing . T h 0 f 0 r H11:1 r' r'l :i. n ·i_ s 1", f·'!r' 0 f r i. 11 i:'l n c (~ J 1.11ho :is rlOill M:inister· of Health, srri.d, lllhEH1 U1C~~ r'\lllOnclrrwnl·:s llHH'C'! mcH~e jn about June of Jast y101ar, l:hdi.: t:hr~~ i3.iiiC;!ndJIJC~1nl·. lllOUlcl (-:! S S E:HI l j d Jl y g j V E:1 b a C k l: 0 t h E:1 pens·.ionc.;!r'S IAlhal: llli .~s Lak!~'n ou ·l7. by the :in:itjal change in January.

In other words, the pans:i.oners themselves, on an actuarial basis, would be as 1.11e ll off as any o r11:1 i. n Canada, even though we were the o n 1 y P r· o v 1 n c (-:! t. o c h a n g e o u r· provincial pension plan as a result of tlw changcc1S ln UH~ Canada Pension Plan. It would be interesting if the minister could maybe osk his department officials to have a look al-. -Lt and see ·i.f <.~cl.-_ui :lri .d1ly that has been borne out.. Since he IAlas not: the~ lfl:i.ni.s -I:E:~r 1~1ho :j n t r· o d u c e d i t , he doe s not h au e a VE!S 1-.ed JntE~rc-:1sl.: in bc~1i .ny absoJ u-h~l y r·:ight or IAlrong.

But I dill cur:i .ous, b{~causc;! T l:h ink Lh0 PE!I'J~;)onE:!I"S iH'E:' ~;til] poorer off t:lv~n -i_F llle hdd donrc~ 1~11 '1.'11-. l:h!c' ol:h!:1r' pi"ovjnc:E!S d:id. All. thE:1Y did lllclS 1.21l8'~ June lO, 1.9138 lJol XI_ ignore the change:~s 'in thE! Canada Pens ion Plan and con l:i.nuE~ on lAd th the obligations they had bef6re . 3f'!l.o:\1.1Sf'! ours ~~~i~S uniqu~>.J.y tJJor·d'"!d, there was the ability to reduce pr·ov'Lnc"i.al. pens-Lonc.;!r's' pens ions at age sixty to sixty-five.

Now, an amE1ndment Wcls madE! to that., wher't.;! t:he change:' !Alas madr:! to it differently, and then another arnt~ndrnent 1.uas nladt=! 1-:o that later on, and at the end, Hw Mi.ni s tC '!r of F·i.nancE?. said t:hey IAJE!r'c~1 dS IJ.lEd .l off as anywherE! E~lse in the co IH1 t: r· y . T cl o no ~~- I: o Lc:111 y b c.;! 1 i (;! v e thclt, but I arn w:.LJling, tf the M-i . n i. s '1.: EH' o F F :i. n d n c E' --i_ s tAJ.-Ll. l i. n g t o do it, to look at somE! ac-1-:ual":iaJ F :i. gut' t-:' s to p r· o tJ E:1 i. 1-. one lAid y or· L he olher.

I just thought I wouJd H1P.nt: ·i.on l:hc:ti· . not•J, s.incr>. '•IE~ do h; :~ve a pension bill in front of us. On that basis, Mr·. SpeakE!r', I r'(:~r>tlly do not: h<'lve any ol :h<::!r' co mm E! n t s , other than to say let u s ho pc;! 1: hE! s (-~ pc~~ n ~; :i.o n c:! r' !; are l"i. v·i. ng well and the amount of rnonE!Y c om:i. n y t·. o i: i·H~Hl i_ s r~'l'l o ugh 1: o lu:! c~' p them in some r·easonable dE!gr'E!C'! of d i ';] n :i. 1:. y . I i-. i. s b)() bad our pensions on1y cover about 30 per C ~! n-1: or thH wor·king population of this Province.

It would bE! nicE· 1: o s c-?. e p E?.r1 s i. on p 1 an s a v a ·L 1 a b 1 e to many other peopJe in our socied:y llJho CIH'r'enl~_ly go int:o r·E!l~ .. irE!lTIE!nt and have to J.jve on just the rrH~agf~r bc.;!nE?.F'i.l:s of, usually, l::hE! old age pension and the suppl!=?.rneni--., SOHIE!-1-:.lrne:'S t:hE! Canada Pension Pl. an, but rnos t oftE·n thE:!y do noL: E:~VHn h;;lVt'! much b(~1nefi .l:s accrued in that plan. On that basis, I will. sit down and lr,'l: l:h!,1 mi.n:i.:; t r-~r· ,,Jind up Lhe dE!bate. Ml~. SPEAI<FR : The h on . t h f:~ ~~ :i. n 'i. s t·. r;! r· u F F :i. nan c e . ~Jo . 53 1~2884-

If the minister speaks now, he will close the debate. MR. WINDSOR: Thank you, Mr. Spea b:~r . T IJJi.l.l just respond tJery br·..-i.E:~fly to some of the comments made by h 0 11 . g e n 1.: J. E~ I fl (:HI () p p 0 s i. t: e . F -i. r ~; t-. 0 r e~1J, the hon. the mE!rnbel" for· Gander· po'i.nl:s 01!l: l:hr'll: o11r· flE!i'l!d .on pli:tns iH'0.! nol:. :lndE~XE:~d. WherE~as t h a i: i. s ·IT 1.1 P , t·.l'ri s 9 c)

l) e r· I'll lie!,., l'. i'li'\ •; sl1own over· the yE:~ar·s that. ~ve fuJJy ~i.ni:.E!rld Lo rc~!COgn ·ize l:hE:~ I'IC:'ed!; or p EHI S j_ 0 1'1 E~ I" S an d t h (:~ n E:~ (:~ d S f 0 r i. n c r· ~~ d s o s o n '~' n a n n u a 1 b d s ·i. c; . '[ c;on·ect the hon. the member For Men-i.hek, in l:.hat i·.:hE~r·e hi:\Vl:~ noi:: b CHHI :i n c r· E:~ as e s e v e r y y ear· ; t. here 1./JC·H'E?. t·.1.1JO y(~iH'S I.IJ~H:Hl I~Je had IJ.Ji:'l9t! freezes, where nobody received any increases, and obviously pensionel"s did not re:~ceive any increases that year either . MR. FENWICK: I would have let that (inaudible). MR.

WINDSOR: I arn trying to be VE!ry honest and c l e a r , rJt r· . S p e a k e r· , IJ.Ji. U1 h o n . gentlemen, srnothE!r them with fa c 1.: s . T h e f d c 1:. t: h cl'l:: t I·H~ ~i. n c r· E:~ r'\ s ~} is 3 pE:~l" cent, I say to ·the hon. rnernbe:'r for Gander·, i.s cc,~r·L .d .nly ·i.n J :.i. rw IJJj t: h j ncr· E?. as e s g j v en in o t 1·1 EH' p a r l'. s o F C a n a d A . T n f .:'1 c t. , •3 E! n E! r· d l. t h :j n ld n g , f o r· t. h o s e t h a t en· E! b e j n g i. i1 de X(:! d , i'l 1'1 d I~JE!

I~Ji .Jl. tH:l S (:' f:~ -j_ rl 9 pE~nsi on r'E?.fOI"rn at the fE:!dEH'al J (~ V 10~ l. 0 V e r' -1: h P. n (,~ X i: 1j C:' i'\ r• , "i. i'l r d C i'. , so that I think j t is go'ing to be p e 9 \j f" d i.~ i:". 6 0 p E! i'' C (:~ n ·l", 0 i- ·1: h H consurnel" pr·:ice index. lrJe ar'E! b(~"i.ng rnor(,~ g(~tlE:~rous 'l:h•:ln thai:. Last year in thjs Prov'ince, our c o s 1:: o f l. i v .i. n g .i n c n~ as f>. d b y 2 . 9 per cent, so we have, in fact, exceeded ~he cost of living increase by providing a 3 per cent increase th.i.s year. 1..2B8S J u rll~! l 0 , l 9 B B Vol. XI ~ AN HON. MEMBER: (InaudJble) . MR.

WINDSOR: W l'! l. l. , :i. +: J. s g erw r· a 11 y a p p 1 i E! d right across the Province. You rni:\Y f:-i.nd i:h"'i-. '.i.l·. oi.s dci:Ui:\l.l.y lolJJl~!r' in other parts of the Province . it>l1~ dC'l".lli'\l.ly pr·otJ·.i.clr:!d i:\ rnor't;! gE:~nerous increase this yea1~ than will nonnrllly be dppl.i .l:~rl on r:~ national basis in future years. With refE!rE:~nce to thE~ unfunciE:~d l i. "' b J. l. 'i. ·i-. y , i ·. h '" i: i. s n o 1.: f:! n l-. i. r· u l. y tlnUE:~. It is partial1.y funciE:!d. We'! c1 o h ''~'J c,~ d l. d r· g ~::· 1 ·-Lab ..-i. J. :i. 1·:. y , I·~ I" .

S p e a k e r , rn o r e s E! r i o u s , a s IJ.J e k n o IAJ and r'IS I hatJE:.~ r.~lr'(:ldUIJ +·.old t.hl.s House, in the Teachers 1 Pension Pl.an i:htH1 i.t is ·Ln Uw Public Service Pension Plan. In fact, our· act. u d r· y ·L n d i. c i:\ 1-.: ~=! s l: o us that from a pension point of view we are probably ahead of all other provinces in Canada in the amount of responsibility we have shown, in that we are partially funding. So I disagree with the hon . member for Menihek. lrJ e a r· E! p <H' i: i. all y f 1.1 n ch n g .

T h i s began in 1979 or 1980, I do not r· (~ c r.~ l. l c,~ x d c U . y , b 1.1 i: c E! r· ·J·. ,;\'i n 1 y J t was this adrnin'istration who, for J-.he F i. r·s 1: i-.:i.1ne, bc:!gan l:o contributE:~ on an annua1 basis to a p H 1'1 :; ·i. () n r~ I I 1'1 cJ !)

l) H r· d 1'1 d d b 0 V t! i: h (;! amount that is ro:!qu·ir•pd to pi:-J.y the~! p r (:~ s c,~ n i: c o s l: u f s 1,~ t' v oi. c i. n 9 p I'! n s .i o n s I>~Jhich are:~ outstanding. That dHIOLinl'. h;~:; I:H'!fHl :i.ncr·~~ds(:•d f~dch year. Obviously it is not E~nough, b u 1:. ~~JE~ <H' c-) "i. n ,~, ITILI c h rn en- e favourable position wilh the p11bl i.e servtce:~ PE~ns.i.on plans t.han we are with the tE!a c hE!rs 1 pE! ns ion plan, which ls seriously undE!rfunded. Our actuary tE!1.1s us t.hat fr·o1n i:l pension leg isli::ttion point of view, because we have ver·y st.rong cormnltmt>nl~s 'in our pension legislation, government No. ~; 3 R288S

lAJiJJ accept the Jiabjl:ity, that we •ll r 1:~ I Ale l.J d head 0 j- 0 t h 1:~ T' p 7' () IJ j_ rl C I·~ !) in Canada, and that 1.11e are, in fi'lc l: 1 l.r~rHJing U·11:~ lli~Y. Of course, r.1~; ho n . Jrtr~rnbt::H'S knotJ.I, !Ale ar·e noiAI doj ng a ver·y thorough f~X<:llwi.nat-i.on, ftr·s 1-.: of al.l of t:he teachers 1 pension plan, as to what nec,~r.Js l:o be-?. done-?. thc.;!t'(~ l-.o df~al. with the long -term unfunded l.iabil .ity.

It ls a very serio1.1S situation, not so much with thE! teachers, because, obvioulsy, as has been said, government is cornrnil:t.E!d t.o HH:1eting l~hes1:~ pensions when they becomE! due and payable. And unless a province is bankrupt, as again has been cor r· e:1 c U y sa i. d , obvious J. y ·i.t w.i.l.l. be met. The fact of the matter ls, i.f !Ale r.tll.owecl thc :1 unftmdc~d liabiljty of various pension plans 'I; 0 9 r OlJ.I, t h C\ t.

C C)l.( J. d h .:w c·:: a l)(H' y ~erious fjnanciaJ impJication for l:hr:1 ProtJi.ncn :i.n ':JG!iH':; ·t:o cotrH:1, so tAlE:! h a v E:~ ·t-. o b (>. f i s c a J ] y r e s p o n s i b J e iHld dt~d} IAJii.:h "i.l-. riOIAI. ~ S J. 1.: r e J a l: (:' :; l: 0 C h o:OHl g (:1 ;:~ S c)l J"e~;uJt of the Canada Pension Plan, M r . ~> p (~ d k F.!r' , I t: h i. n k I c iHl a s s u r e ·the hon. gentleman fr·om Menihek t. h a L p e n s i. o n r::1 r s r.1 r e i n d e e d a s I•J e 11. of. Hou.1ever, I will undertake to r·~>.vif:~IAI that, now Uli:11~. Wt:~ hi:1Ve had a year or so experience in it.

Certainly the lntent of the changes that were made was to ensure l:hat people were treated fairJ.y, and that they did not suffer any loss oF income as a result of changes that were made. Mr. Spc->.aket'. I t.dkl->. grt-?.at : pleasure jn moving second reading. SOME HON. MF.MBF.RS : Hear·, h~~ar! On rnoi::i.on, a b:i.ll., 11 An ~c:l: RE::specti ng An Tncr ·E~aSE! Of Certain PHnsi.on:;, 11 r·uacl .:·1 :;E~concl l·.''i.rrll:', or·der·ed r·c,!ferr(~d to i)l Comrn:i tt-ee of 1./.BiJ(j J IHlC'! l ()I 1, 9 813 \Jo.l. X I. the Whole House on tomorrow . (H"i.ll No . /.8) Mt~. SIMMS : Order 26, Bill No. 9.

Motion, second rE!ading of a bj]J., 11 ~ n A c l·. To I n co q)() t' a h-) ThE! Newfoundland And Labrador School Trt.tstef:!S 1 ~ssoc ·iclt.ion. 11 (Bi.l1 No. 9) MR. SPEAKER : rhe hon. the M in :ist(H' oF Education . SOI'-1E HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. HEARN: Thank yotJ. Mr·. SpE!dkc:1r, l.wl.: ffiE! ~;-LrnpJ.y s <.~y that the purpose of the biJ.J . j s Lo "i.ncorpor~te The NHwfoundland and Labrador School Trustees 1 A s :; o c i. d t i. o n :'>OMf-: l-ION. MFMBEf~~) : Hc::1ar·, hear·! MR.

HEARN: i:h~:~ par ·eni ·~ body uf l··.hc'! thirty-five various school boar·d s s p r' f~ i.Hl 1: h r o 1.1 g h o u L 1':11 e P r o v l n c e a n d made up of volunteers who do a t·:r~:~rnc-?.ndoLIS job "i.n ass'lsting in operating the education systE!rn in l:.hc:~ Pr·ov'.ince. This fonnaJ.l.y recognizes them in JegisJation. MR. DECKER: M r . S p c-?. a k e r· . MR . SPEAKER (Parsons): The han. the member for thE! Strait of fh>.lle Isle. MR. DECKFR : l'-1r·. Spc.;!akEH', W(~ in th~~ Off ·.icial 0 p fH) !d l'. ·i o n l·~o:w t'! n o p r· o b 1. (;: m supporting this particular biJ.l.

I s h o 11l d ~; .:-1 y , 1.: h o 1.1 g h I Yo 1 J r· 1-1 o no 1.1 r· , that the temptation is there to go No. 51 1~2HH6

into a long speech on all the problems IAJl th ed1H:a'l: -Lon "Ln t.h Ls Province, as well as IAJith all the pr·obl.ems with l:he Min.is ·t.er of Education, and i'l: would give an o p pot' 1: u n tty t. o a l J. me rn be r· s of thE:~ Oppositjon to get up and go on for days on the problems whi.ch ex'i.st thE:!r'e. Rut I t.~.dll not takE:~ a d v ~' n h.:l g ~" o f l··. h .:~ t o p p o r L u n:i. t y , M r· . SpE·!O.kE:H', and the nlinister ex p r· c~ s s r,:! s r e J. i H f . I s h o 1.11. d s ;;\ y j u s t d ThE:! School Tr·ustE:~c~s' s :i. n c E!

T d 111 s p C:! a!< :i. n 9 bE:~J:iE:!Ve ThE~ Schoo] f f'!I~J I•)[) t'd S () i 1 Association, on i.L. T Trustees' 11 s s o c: i d ;·. i. o n i. s '" f o r· c F.! f n r· good •'I ~; far !'AS E!ducat·lon j s concerned in this Provine~. ~ince their inception in LhP 1970s, Lhr::~y have bE~ en do:ln"::) nothing bu ;: good for the cause of education.

I u n d t~1 r· s t d n d l: h a 1". e v t:! r y s c h o o l. boat' d in the Province is represented except the Seventh Day Adventist School Board, and I understand thE:1 rea s o n 1: h <"! r· e .i. s no t. be c au s 1;:1 of an y philosophical dispute, but rather il: might. haV(.;! had ~;omc-?.th ·i.ng t.o do with thE! cost of joining over the y e a r· s ; t h e r 1::1 i. s n o p h i. 1 o s o p h :L c ;:~ l. or theologica] reason why they are not t h <"! r· (~~ .

W hE:~ n I;.Jeo~ t. a 1 k t:\ bout The School Trustee-?.s' Association, we a r• c~~ 1-.i:ll . !< i. n g a b o u t r l~ p r· o s c->. n i·.: a t -.i. v r~ s fron1 the ouerwhelrn:ing nuruber, practically All school boards tn this Prov'.i nee, Mr. 5pE:~aker·. l'ls fa I" <'.IS J cr-.n1 undE:H'stand, in the '~'"r·J.y ddy!; oF 1-.h ·i~; 11s~;oc:i .dL"i.on t h c-~ y d :i cJ s lJ f f EH' a J ·1 t tJ E:! b :it fro rn the~ l:hr·oc :!:) or dC"!I101fJ"i ndl:'i.<Hlo'll.i.~>HI, T . . F . I sup p o s e :1 t ] s · i-.l :t.

I" to say ; E! <-.1 c -, s~~r:!nH:'d i:o be lllorc"! c:onc:E:'rnr~cl d~H)IIt h:is OLIJrl dE:~noruinational conCE!rns I·: han l::h(~y IAJE!r'e conC:C!Y'nr:!d abou ;: Uw ovc~11"al] causE:~ of c~1ducation in the Pr·ov.ince. But. l·:haL IAJc~s no·l·. long disappearing when pE!Ople from all d<::!nominal:.i.ons, and all. school boar·ds, rr::1ali7,ed that in their L28B7 June 1.0, J.9BB Vol. XL unity thE!re was strength. I s h o 1.11. d s a y , 11-1 r . s p co?. i:t ki:H' , l:: h a t. I served on thE! IntegratE!d Education Council. for· c1 rw rn be r· of years , with the Anglican, thE!

United Church, the Presbyter·ian, l:he Salvation Army and Moravian. By thc;o time T surved on i.l.:, i 1:. IAJas the late 1970s and early 1980s, d n d b y 1.: h (! n l.: h r~ d u n o rn i. n a L: L u n a 1 overtunes had died down a cons· .·.i.dr"!r'r:'lbl P dlflOI.In ·i-_. :-><itdl.y, I rnust Si'J.IJ, on one o1n ·l::i;.JO occasions d!"!l'lOllli .l'ldi:i .on.·ll . conc<:~r·n~; did co1nr,~ to the forefront, and you could ~;r~C! 1~1ho ~~Jd'> t'(:!pr·c,~sr=!nl·_..-i .ng l::he Angltcan, who W~'lS lneprE!SE~n:ing LhE~ ~).'\lt;dl·.-.i.on Ar·1ny dnd l~he Untl'.·.t:!d Church and so on.

But as a r·uJ e, 1: h (:~ t; a !) '1-: n Lll n b r=! r· o F cl f'! c i. s .. L o n ~; IAJ h i. c h arE! fTii'J.de by the Education Counci1 a r <-?. rn;=' d e for ·1: hE! b r~ n E! f i. 1:·. of 1: he whole group and, 1 IAJould say fur·ther·, as tAJi.th l:h("' Cc\l:hol.ic Council and the Pentecostal Counci.l, rnade for· UH'! bc·l.I'H-?.f ll: or=- the whole Province, because I l~. h l n k "' n d T a m c o n u :i. n c E! d l:. h a l: L h E:' y arE! concerned with the well-being of educal:'ion -Ln t.hi.s Pr·ov-i.nce.

T h i. s r· e que s 1: for l. (:' g ·is l. i:l. t i. on carne , I understand, from the NE~111foundl.and ancl l .. abrador School Trustees' Association. SornE! yE•ai"~; dgo, they hdd a s i:udy don~!. I think they had Mr. Roebothan do l'.he s;.1.1dy, i.f r .:~In noi.: rn-:i.s'i:di<r:!l 'l, and one of the sixteen or s ~~ v ~) 1·11 l:! ,:. n r·r~ 1: Olllrrtr) nd d I~ i. on s rnad e 11Jd s that they would have to be J·'''! ,; og·i 7. C:!d HIE! NTA l: I H'

l) I I g h 0 I I 1. . I . . "' ~; .-::~ n i.~ ~; ~' o c '.'1 d ·_ J. o n , "' s l s and othr::~r associations l·. h f:' p t' 0 l) :i_ n c (·~ . rJt I'' . . ~·) p 0 ·~ k E~ r· I T bH 'l J c:!V E:' i· his group of good for the will do a lot fiJ"i-:llt'e of 1~dU Ci'\ L".i .Oil i.n I". his Province. NoL.u, I should say from the start l·:ha-1.: I:, pr:!r·sonally, am comrn·:i.tt:c,~d to a denominational system of No . 53 R28H7

education for this Province. NotAJ, maybe that is because of my background. I grew up in the educational system. I served in our denominational education system and, as members kno11J, I IJ..Jas a clergyman at one time, which, ex officto, made me a member of a school ~oard when I was serving in particular districts. I have come to see that there is a lot of good in the denominational education system, unlike our colleagues in the NDP who would abolish denominational education, who would throw it out, destroy it, who want nothing to do with it.

The next: l.ogi.cc<..1l sU:!p, of course, would be to get religion out of t.he schools. Now, Mr. Spedke;~, if IJ.JG ev~Jin !"each a timE! in this Province when we are like our friends in the United States, who cannot even say the Lord 1 s Prayer in a school if they wish to do so, that would be tragic for Ulis Province. I think the stand the NDP are taking is barely the fir·st step. Because in the attempt to have freedom of religion, they end up having just the opposite of freedom, they have the abandonment of religion which is wrong, Mr. Speaker.

This is not saying that one denomination is greater or lesser than the other, that is simply stating the facts as they are. I believe I have a commitment to the denominational education system. Having said that, Mr. Speaker, I also believe in co-operation among the denom ·Lnations. Thai". is not particularly an outstanding revolutionary position to lake either, becausE! that is the very position t.hat the denominational education systems themselves are taking. We witnessed the recent report by the Catholic Education L2888 June 10, 1988 Vol XL Council, and we IAJitnE!Ssed thE!

Integrated Education Council report some years earlier. TherE! is a spirit of co --operation among thE! dE!nominational education school boards in this Province today. Now, Mr. Speaker, Newfoundland and I believe the Labrador School Trustees 1 Association is one of the biggest forces in the Province today which is forcing that co-operation among the denominations in our education system, and that is the track IAJE• must foJ.low, I bE!lieve. WE! must go for co-operation. l"he hon. members of the NDP arE! suggE!St.:i.ng that we have a system like they have on the MainJ.and.

I am not as fami.li.CJ.r IJ..Jlth scl1ool syst .E!Ins on the Mainland, maybe, as thE! LeadE!r of the NDP -Ls, but I do knotAJ that I have met many people who come dOIJ.Jn frorn the 1na inland and ar·e· i m p r e s s e d wi t h o u r s c h o o 1 s y s t: e rn . I belit::we 11Je have a lot t:o offc~r, but we have to co-operate with each other. This is IJJhat thE! Newfoundland and Labrador School Trustees 1 Association is doing. And this is what they are proving: They are proving to us that we can retain our denominational education system and we can co-operate. Mr.

Speaker, thE!rE! is a J.ot of benefit in having a third party decide wherE! schools are going to go, because this takr:1s the politics out of it . Since this par·l:i.cul.ar admi.ni.straUon has come into power, the Strait of Belle Isle district has ne•ver vot:ed P.C.; thE!Y have nE!Ver lost their v ~irginlt:y, their pu1nlty; they have always stayed tAJit:h the Liberal Party. Now, in that length of time thE!re have bE!en ne11J schools buill all over the district. No. 53 R2888

AN HON. MEMBER: What about the hon. mernber 1 s (inaudible)? MR. DECKER: Unfortunately, he is not in the same category, Mr. Speaker. There have been new schools built in Englee, in Roddick ton, in Boyd Arm, in St. Anthony, in Grc,~i.'lt Br·eha·t, and evE:~n at this very minute there is a school being built in Flower 1 s Cove IAJhich will be opE:HlE!d this corning rall. IF I am not Minister of Education, then I hope the present Minister of Education, if we havE! not had an election by then, will be there with me when that s c h o o l is opened.

I IAJill undertake now to tell him that if it is changed around and I am Minister of Ed u cation , the n I wi 11 i n v it e him if I can find him, if he is still in the Province after that election takes place. Mr. Speaker, the paint I arn getting at is this: If we did not have a third group decid-i.ng whE!re schools should go, I would suggest that there would not hRve been these ten or a dozen schools built i.n the Strail: of SE!J.le Isll':~ OVICH' the past seventeen or eighteen year·s.

If thi.s government had to say where schools should go, I 1..\JOUld SU99E!Si: they IAJOUld pLI t the odd token school in Liberal districts, like they are doing with the odd token road in Liberal distr·icl:s, or the odd bil·: of token municipal affairs, before the present minister carne :in, the odd bit of tokenism, Mr. Speaker, that is what would happen. Bul:, where we have this third group, I believe schools are built: on the basis of neE!d throughout this Province. NoiAJ, there are not enough schools being built for many reasons, we do not have the money or whatever, but the f