LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 22 July, 1986. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER, Hon. M. Phillips: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Burrows. MR. C. SANTOS: Madam Speaker , the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report same, and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Member for Kildonan, that the report of the Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried.

MINIST ERIAL STATEMENTS AND TAB LING OF REPORTS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney -General. HON. R. PENNER: Madam Speaker , I beg leave to table the Proceed ings of the 67th Annual Meeting of the Uniform Law Conference of Canada, held at Halifax, Nova Scotia, August 1985. MADAM SPEAKER: No tices of Mo tion ... introduction of Bills . . OR AL QUESTIONS MTX - hiring discrimination, Saudi Arabia MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Madam Speaker . My question is for the Premier .

I wondered if he had had sufficient time to review the issue of the discriminatory hiring practices that involve MTX, the wholly-owned subsidiary of the Manitoba Te lephone System and Saudi Arabia Datacom Limited, a 50 percent-owned corporation under Manitoba Te lephone System; discriminatory hiring practices which prevent the hiring of Jews and women to work for those corporations which are funded by Manitoba, the Manitoba Government, to do business in Saudi Arabia; and will he now withdraw the MTS investment in Saudi Arabia? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honoura ble First Minister. HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker , this morning I was in contact with MTX, and also my office was in contact with the Department of External Affairs in Ottawa, in regard to alleged discriminatory practices pertaining to hiring. MTX advised me, Madam Speaker, that there has been no discriminatory practices on their part, insofar as the hiring of anyone based upon religion or sex, insofar as recruitment for the projects in the Saudi Arabian countries.

Nor has there been, in fact, at any time since 19 78, insofar as the Department of External Affairs in Ottawa are concerned; they advise that the practices are within the laws of Canada, that the Saudi Arabian Embassy assure them that they do not process the applications for work permits on the basis of either religion or sex. That has not been the case according to the Saudi Arabian Embassy, Madam Speaker.

Also I am satisfied that the guidelines of the Canadian Human Rights Commission that dealt with this matter, after this same matter was dealt with in this Legislature and in the Federal Parliament in 1978, the Canadian Human Rights Commission found that there was no discrimination; that still stands, Madam Speak er. If any doubt remains, then certainly we're prepared to ask the Canadian Human Rights Commission or Gordon Fairweather to further enquire into that. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, is the Premier telling us that the word and the testament of the president of MTS, and the president of MTX, given in an intervie w last week is incorrect, at which time they said that banning Jews and women is the only way the MTX can do business in Saudi Arabia or in other Muslim countries. Is he now saying that that's incorrect and they were wrong in having said that? HON. H. PAWLEY: That is not the information certainly I received from MT X this morn ing, nor is it the information I received from External Affairs in Ottawa. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, is he saying that what Mr.

Ho lland said in response to this matter - Mr. Holland being the President of Manitoba Te lephone System - on Friday, when he said, "lt would be a major discourtesy if we don't observe the local laws, culture and the religion of the host country," that that too was incorrect? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speak er, that is what Mr. Holland is reputed to have said, not what he may have said to the media. A MEMBER: Oh, come on. HON. H. PAWLEY: There's a big difference. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, is he saying that the president of MTX was not correct, Mr.

Plunkett, when he said and I quote from the story, "Piunkett said every body at MTX knows Jews can't go to Saudi Arabia and women can't work in a Muslim country." Is he saying that too was an incorrect statement? 2053

Tuesday, 22 July, 1986 MADAM SPEAKER: May I ask for a clarification? Is the Honourable Leader of the Opposition quoting statements from Hansard from a committee meeting or from press reports? MR. G. FILMON : Madam Speaker , I am quoting statements that are attributed to these individuals in a news media report, and these people happen to be the president of MTS and the president of MTX, respectively . MADAM SPEAKER: May I remind the Honourable Leader of the Opposition that it is the member 's duty to ascertain the truth of statements before he brings them to the Chamber .

The Honourable Leader of the Opposi tio n. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, is the Premie r telling the Legislature that anyone can be allowed to work in Saudi Arabia under the aegis of MTX and Saudi Arabia Datacom Ltd., companies that we, the taxpayers, have funded and set up to do business in Saudi Arabia , that anyone is eligible to work there, is allowe d to work there under the laws of that country today? HON. H. PAWLEY: Yes, Madam Speaker , in fact, that's what Mr. McGill even indicated to this House back in 1978, 1979, that that was possible .

Insofar as women are concerned, Madam Speaker , my advice is that there have been no applications, but I would hasten to advis e members of the House that there are quite a number of Canadian women involved in pro fessions, in health and in teaching, including Manitob a women right at the present time in Saudi Arabia . MR. G. FILMON: As a matter of fact, I have had that confirmed as well , that nursing and education are allowable professions for women.

Is the Premie r telling us that it is just coincidence that of the 100 or more people who have gone to work for MTX and Saudi Arabia Datacom Ltd. from Manitoba , that none of these people are women and that none were Jews , that that is just strictly coincidence , Madam Speaker? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker , I, in fact, inquired of Mr. Holland this morning if any women had made an effort , as engineers, to Saudi Arabia . Apparently a number of engineers are very small who are fema le, regrettably, but there have been apparently no requests , no rejections . MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, is the Premier then saying that is just strictly coincidence and it isn't , as was stated earlier by Mr. Plunkett, that everybody at MTX knows that Jews can't go to Saudi Arabia and women can't work in Muslim countries? MADAM SPEAKER: That question is repetitious. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker , my question to the Premier then is: Is he fully satisfied that the polic ies that are being pursued by Saudia Arabia Datacom Ltd. and MTX , companies in which investment has been made by the people of Manitoba, by the Government of Manitoba , are not in any way adhering to discriminatory policies in allowing people to work in those countries . HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, as I indicated a few moment s ago , I am satisfied that they fall within the guidelines as estab lished by the Canadian Human Rights Commission in its hearing of 1979.

I wou ld intend , bec ause I think the honourable members have raised certainly a matter that concerns us all in this House , I'd be prepar ed to consult further , either with Mr. Gordon Fairweather, or to refer the matter for further determination as to the updating necessary since the 1979 finding to be doubly satisfied that there is no discriminatory pract ice. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker , is the Premier telling the people of Manitob a that the policies and the hiring practices that are being adhered to by these compani es in which we have a significant financial investment , MTX, Saudi Arabia Datacom Ltd., that those policies are the policies of the Government of Manitoba, fully supported by him and his entire adm inis tration . HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, as I have already indi cated , I'm satisfied, on the basi s of conversations with External Affairs in Ottawa, plus MTX this morning, that there is no discrimination based upon religion or sex.

I am prepared, Madam Speaker, to again refer this matter to the Canadian Human Rights Commission which, by the way, is a muc h more objective body than I'm sure honourable members in this Hous e would pretend to be, the Canadian Human Rights Commission , chaired by Mr. Gordon Fairweather , who's a well­ respected human rig hts personage in Canada, to further review this matt er, subsequent to their findings in 1979. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker , if the Premier is fully satisified with the policies that are being adhered to these corporations , why would he then refer this to the Canadian Human Rights Commission?

HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, becaus e I know that if I don 't do it honourable members, including the Leader of the Opposition and others, will continue to suggest there 's discrimination when there isn't discrim ination . I refer, Mad am Speaker , to remove all doubts , refer this matter to the Canadian Human Rights Commission so honourable members can't continue to yell discrimination, when in fact there is none. MR. G. FILMON : Mad am Speaker , if indeed we are concerned about discri mination, the Premie r has expressed concerns in the past with respect to policies concerning South Africa.

We're not just talking about some airy-fairy kind of application of moral standard s. We're talking about whether or not the Premi er . MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourab le member have a question? MR. G. FILMON: . . . and his colleagues are committed to the eradication of discrimination against employment , against women and Jews in Saudi Arabia; so I just 2054

Tuesday, 22 July, 1986 wanted to be absolutely clear that the Premier is satisfied with the policy and he supports fully the policies that are being adhered to by these corporations owned by the taxpayers of Manitoba. HON. H. PAWLEY: I thought I'd alrea dy dea lt with that question, but so that honourable members can't continue to raise speculation as to discrimin ation , and because I don't have any reservation, Madam Speaker , I will see to it that this matter is referred to the Canadian Human Rights Commission so that this matter is not kicked around as a political football in this Legislative Chamber.

I'll be referring it to the Canadian Human Rights Commission or updating. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Spea ker, is the Premie r suggesting that the issue of discrimination against the employment of women and Jews is a political football? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker , it would be a political football for honourable members to continue to level charges when I've indicated that, in order to remove any doubt on a very serious matter, I wan t an objective body dealing with human rights, the Canadian Human Rights Commission, to make a ruling that will satisfy us so we remove this from the political arena.

I am satisfied , on the basis of the information that I have, no discrimination, that will not satisfy the Leader of the Opposition . Understandably, I want to refer it now to the Canadian Human Rights Commission so the Leade r of the Opposition cannot continue to holler "discrimination" for political purposes . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina . MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is for the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourab le Member for Pembina has the floor . MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you , Madam Speaker.

My question is for the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System . Can the Minister indicate whether qualified employees of MTS who may be seconded to the MTX operations in Saudi Arabia are given an orientation course in Saud i Arabian religio us law, among which are implicit the bans on alcohol and bans on Jewish and women employees. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister responsible for MTS . HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker, I want to thank the honourable member for the question .

I do want to confirm that those MTS employees who want to apply for posting in Saudi Arabia , as they have since 1978, are given an orientation briefing which does outline the differences in the law and the customs and traditions in Saudi Arabia and those in Canada; and , of course, they include such matters as alcohol, the role of both men and women in society, a great manner of customs and tradit ions that are vastly different than here . It does deal with religious artifacts and religious practices . MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Speaker, possibly the Minister did not unde rstand my questio n.

My question was specifically : does the orientation amongst applicants who may qualify for MTX posting in Saudi Arabia include , specifically, an orientation on Saudi religious law which specifically prohibits and bans Jewish and women employees? Is that part of the orientation program given by MTS to potential workers to be seconded to MTX ? HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker , I think the short answer would be, no, however, I know the honourable member is not going to be satisfied with a short answer.

The requirements of foreign employment , whether it be through CIDA or External Affairs or any other foreign employment , does require orientation on the part of a Manitoban or Canadian who is going to work or be involved for any length of time in another foreign nation, and that does include briefings as to what the cust oms and traditions are in that country in respect to a wide range of things including religion. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Madam Speaker , given that the orientation given by Manitoba Telephone System to potential qualified employees who may be interested in work in Saudi Arabia through MTX, would the Minister not investigate with MTS as to whether the explanation of Saudi religious laws which prohibit Jews and women from working in Saudi Arabia is not in fact telling those Jews and women qualified in Manitoba Telephone System that they need not apply for work in Saud i Arabia? MADAM SPEAKER : The Honourable First Ministe r. HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, maybe I could cast a little bit of light on this for the Member for Pembina . The Manitoba Telephone System advised me that they have no record of applications from Jewish people, since in the application form that is completed by those that apply for the positions through MTX , there's no reques t for information as to one's religion or race or any other basis ; so there 's no record insofar as whether or not any Jewish people had been refused or not because religious faith is not asked for in the first instance. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Madam Speaker , the Premier's answer begs a further question . If, in fact, there is no record in the applicant 's form for employment of religion or sex, why then does the orientation course, given by the Manitoba Telephone System, inc lude informing employees of Saudi religious laws which ban the employment of Jews and women if, in fact , the application form contains neither reference? HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker , the honourable member , I think , would recall that in the debate in 1978, the Honourable Member for St.

Johns , Saul Chern iack , finally, afte r extensive questioning , did obtain confirmation from the Honourable Mr. McGi ll, who was then Minister responsible for the Telephones, that there was an orientation briefing in respect to employment in Saudi Arabia. I have learned what the orientation course says about religious taboos and I'll read it. It says: "Don't discuss 2055

Tuesday, 22 July, 1986 religion, this is a very sensitive subject with some Saudis; don't stare at someone who is praying, you may see people praying almost anywhere; don't walk in front of someone who is praying; don't step on a prayer rug if someone is preparing to pray; don't attempt to enter a mosque; don't go to the holy cities of Mecca or Medina; don't call a Saudi a Mohammedan, the proper term is Moslem.

Be discreet if in public during prayer times." Madam Speaker, they are orientation instructions in respect to the customs of that country and I would say, Madam Speaker , that every countr y in the world establishes certain laws and traditions and customs, and when we go and work there, we do our best to be good citizens and conform, and not be offensive when we are in another person's country. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Madam Speaker , in providing further elucidation as to the briefing provided, can the Minister indicate whether that briefing includes the premise of Saudi religious law which prohibits the employment of Jews and women? Is that also part of the document that he has just quoted from? HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker , I don't believe that to be the case. Federal Tripartite Program re beef MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Ste. Rose. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Thank you, Madam Speaker . My que stion is for the Minister of Agriculture.

Many cattlemen in this province are concerned about the short period of time that they are being given to consider the options from the Beef Commission and the rela tionship that we have with the Federal Tr ipartite Program that's being offered. Has the Minister had time to de cide if he will reconsider the deadline and allow more time for consideration? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourabl e Minister of Agriculture. HON. B.

URUSKI: Madam Speak er, I want to indicate to my honourable friend that, as I under stand it, the second quarter support level under the National Tr ipartite Plan is now being calculat�d and is final. I want to indicate to my honourable friend that the support payment, or differential between the federal plan, which is now $2.64 per cwt., as compared to our present program, under our program before the changes, or the options that are there for producers, is $13 .87, having a net producer difference of over $1 0.00 a cwt.

Madam Speaker , even with the Alternative 1, with the reduction of support and reduction of premiums, and that takes into account the premium cost, the net benefit to the Manitoba producers under Alternative 1, which is the reduction in support, is still a difference of $9. 16 a cwt. on Level 3, on the highest premium and highest level. As well, under Level 2, which is the increase in premiums and the increase in support, it would still be on Level 3 a net benefit of $9.46 a cwt.

Madam Speaker , clearly indicating to honourable members that what they have raised is, in fact, not very factual in terms of the information that they have received. lt should be pointed out that in the Province of Alberta, which has a cattle industry about five times the size of Manitoba, only 3,000 producers have joined the federal program. We are asking the Commission to monitor the situation and if, in fact, there is need to allow another window for entrance into the federal plan, we will consider that. MADAM SPEAKER: I remind honourable ministers to keep their answers brief. The Honourable Member for Ste.

Rose. MR. G. CUMMINGS: A supple mentar y, Madam Speaker . Given that the Minister has just stated that the increase in coverage that is available federally, as compared to provincially, does that mean that he's prepared to give a commitment to the cattlemen of this province that the provincial premiums will not change in the near future? HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker , the proposals that are bein g put into place by the Manitoba Beef Commission are clearly an option to producers.

They have a choice of either having a reduction in support, ranging from about 5 percent to 8 percent, with a corresponding reduction in premiums between 25 percent and 33 percent. That is the choice of one side of the que stion, or increasing the support level ; leaving the support level where it is and, of course, increasing the premiums from - and I'm quoting on slaughter animals - 12 percent to, I believe the figure is to 18 percent. That is the choice that the producers have in a program that was originally designed to be as actuarily sound as possible. That's the nature of the program.

No one, even the honourable members opposite could not predict that we would have four years of below cost-of-production prices in the marketplace. In fact, everyone, including us, had hoped that the marketplace would in fact return producers more than their cost of production. MR. G. CUMMINGS: The actuarial soundness of the program that the Minister just referred to makes the case that this was not discussed during the meetings this Spring . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have a supplementary question? MR. G.

CUMMINGS: Madam Speaker , I'm asking the Minister if he will reconsider having a series of meetings because that kind of information was not available? HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker , I wish honourable members opposite would not misinform the farmers of Manitoba. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Madam Speaker , on a point of order . I was not misinforming the farming public of this province. The Minister, I would expect, will withdr aw that remark. 2056

Tuesday, 22 July, 1986 MADAM SPEAKER: Misinform is not on the list of unparl iamentary words. The member does not have a point of order. The term has been used by several members, including the member himself, and I have let that go. HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker, last week members opposite indicated in this House that the federal plan would pay more than the provincial plan in terms of producer support. If that isn't misinforma tion, Madam Speak er, what is?

Mada m Sp eaker , it was this go vernment th at attempted to change the mind of the Federal Government when they brought in tripartite stabilization which included hogs, beef and sheep all in one. lt was an all-or-nothing program. lt was this Minister and this government that changed the mind of the Federal Government to separate those programs. We, in fact, have asked the Federal Government to consider several options, even under the Beef Program. Madam Speaker, we will continue to press for those changes to make the federal program much more meaningful.

If honourable members wish to go out and promote the federal program, absolutely, let them go ahead. MR. G. CUMMINGS: A new question for the Minister, Madam Sp eaker. If he is prepared to consider the Tr ipartite Program, and it appears that he is reject ing it out of hand, will he then reconsider the option of convening a series of mee tings in the province and allow his people on the commission, or his staff people, to go out and explain the changes that are being proposed in the Beef Commission, and explain what he means by actuarial soundness. HON. B.

URUSKI: Madam Speaker , there is another form of misinformation. Here we have a member getting up in this House, after this government went ahead and presented details of the federal proposal when it really wasn't our job. lt was either this job or their party's job. Madam Speaker, we are always open to having producers - if they wish to change their mind and join the federal program, I will be the last to prevent the farmers of this province from joining the federal program. Let the honourable members go and sell the program; tell producers what the facts are.

Let them come to me and say "we're prepared to join the federal program." Madam Spea ker, I will be the first to receive them. High School Program Review Committee MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. L. DERKACH: Madam Speaker , my que stion is to the Minister of Education. Since the Minister of Education has indicated to the House some time ago that he will be proceed ing with the High School Review, and since he's now had some time to get the panel together, will the Minister of Education now table the list of members who will be making up the High School Review Panel?

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speaker, I'm in the process right now of contacting some of the people who will be serving on the High School Review Committee and I hope to be in the position to announce the names of those people within the next couple of weeks. MR. L. DERKACH: Well, can the Minister also table the qualifying criteria which will help those people who wish to make representation to the panel? Will he table that criteria for us in the next little while? HON. J.

STORIE: Madam Speaker, I can tell the honourable member that I will be making a full report on the High School Review and the terms of reference in due course. MR. L. DERKACH: This process is taking such a long time, Madam Speaker, and I'm wondering if the Minister can tell the House whether interested parties and individuals thr oughout Manitoba will, in fact, have an opportunity to make personal representation to the panel as it goes through the province, or will the panel only be receiving written submissions? HON. J.

STORIE: Much of what the member has asked, of course, will be determined by the Review Committee as they decide what form of subcommittee system they - (Interject ion) - Madam Speaker, I have tried to indicate to members opposite that the committee of course will be conducting its own affairs. I have indicated, on other occasions, and specifically to the Member for Roblin-Russell, that this committee, in my opinion, will be travel ling through all of the regions, either itself or its subcommittees, to receive representation from individuals and from groups.

And that, in addition to that, I intended to do travelling throughout the province and the regions to meet with interested groups, including parents and students, so that the final result of the High School Review, which comes from the committee, can reflect in a fair and accurate way, the real wishes of the people of Manitoba. Day Care Centre - Health Sciences Centre MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My que stion is to the Minister of Community Services.

The day care called Children at the Centre, formerly the Health Scienc es Centre, is presently advertising that it has government-subsidized spaces while, at the same time, charging fees ranging from $21 .00 for infants to $1 5.00 for children aged four and over. Can the Minister explain how such fees could be charged at a public day care? MADAM SPEAKER: The Hono urable Minister for Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Yes, Madam Spe aker. This particular day care has had a different history than other day 2057

Tuesday, 22 July, 1986 cares. lt was an employer-sponsored day care under the Health Sciences Centre. 1t caters primarily to employees in that centre who, on average, are more highly paid. lt is our expectation that as the system develops, we will have increasing numbers of employer­ sponsored day care. They have, as a result of this, been permitted a higher fee level, but the actual subsidy available from the public is on the same basis as any other centre. MRS. S.

CAASTAIAS: Can the Minister tell us if we are, in fact, now going to get two levels of private day care, those that her department sees as suitable and those that the department sees as unsuitable? HON. M. SMITH: Madam Sp eaker, the use of the word "private" is quite misleading. To the extent that all the day care centres are run by parent boards, they can all be consi dered priv ate. The more relevant discrimination is between profit and non-profit. This particular centre is a non-profit centre. MRS. S.

CAASTAIRS: Can the Minister explain why day care charging $21 for an infant would not end up at the end of the year with a profit similar to other private day cares? HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker , the higher cost for giving infant care is based on the higher req uirement of staffing per children. The centre's budget is on a break-even basis. They would not be allowed, if they end up the year with some slight surplus, to remove that surplus, it would be plowed back into the next year's operation. There is no mechanism for any slight surplus to flow to the board.

Canadian Nazarene College MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Emerson. MA. A. DAIEDGEA: Thank you, Madam Speaker . My question is the Minister of Municipal Affairs. On September 5, 1985, the then Minister of Municipal Affairs, Andy Anstett, wrote to Mr. Neil Hightower, president of the Canad ian Nazarene College and indicated: "I am now able to report that the Minister of Education, the Honourable Maureen Hemphill, and I have directed our staff to prepare an amendment to The Municipal Assessment Act.

This should ease economic difficulties faced by colleges such as yours." Can the Minister indicate whether he is planning to bring forward legislation to amend The Municipal Assessment Act to help these colleges in this Session? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honou rable Minister of Municipal Affairs. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Thank you, Madam Spea ker. I do not have any plans to bring in such legislation during this Session. However, a letter is going out very shortly to Mr. Hightower to meet with him and with the three other pr incipals.

Ho pefu lly the Minister of Education will be able to be present at that meeting and we will discuss this issue with that group at that time. MA. A. DAIEDGER: Madam Speaker, to the same Minister. Can the Minister indicate when there was a change of policy from last year to where he is not bringing legislation forward, whether there is a change of policy and when this change of policy took place? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, my under standing is that, subsequent to that letter, the department took a look at the issue of exempting property and it is by far more complicated than was anticipated.

Second ly, as members opposite know the Weir Commission had recommended that the number of exemptions be minimized, and we are reviewing that particular request in light of both situations. MA. A. DAIEDGEA: A final supplementary to the same Minister. Can the Minister ind icate whether there is any possibility that the four colleges that we're making reference to can get some kind of financial relief for this coming year, or do we have to wait another three years of writing and begging for appointments with this Minister? HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: Madam Speaker, I very much resent the words "begging for an appointment ." SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HON. J. BUCK LASCHUK: For the mem bers information, I received a call from, I believe it was Mr. Eichhorn, I can't remember the name, and within a matter of two or three days, I had set an appointment. Unfortunately, at the last moment, I couldn't make it and I have not heard since until about a week ago. I received a letter which alleged that a number of efforts had been made to contact me. I can assure the member that I am quite willing to meet with Mr.

Hightower and his group and that will be done. A letter is going out in the near future, but there will be no legislation during this Session to exempt their property as requested. Flooding in Manitoba - result of Alberta floods MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Thompson. MA. S. ASHTON: Thank you, Madam Spe aker. My question is to the Minister of Natural Resources. lt follows upon the fact that there have been high water levels on the Saskatchewan River, reported in Alberta, high water levels have led to flooding in that province.

My question to the Minister is as to when that high water level is expected to reach Manitoba and as to whether there is any danger of flooding, particularly in The Pas area, which is on the Saskatchewan River banks? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Natural Resources. HON. H. HAAAPIAK: Than k you, Madam Speaker. Staff from the department have been monitoring water flows 2058

Tuesday, 22 July, 1986 in light of the attention given to this issue in the media. The peak for flow in the Saskatchewan River at The Pas is expected to arrive about July 30th and it is expected to be at a level of some 2 metres above current levels, and that would put it at a level comparable that it was in April of this year, but below the levels of spring runoff that were experienced in the year previous. With that level, it is expected that there will be some flooding in the low lying agricultural lands in the vicinity of The Pas, but we do not expect at this time that any communities would be affected.

Manfor - projected loss MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Madam Speaker . I have a question to the Premier . I wonder if the Premier has been informed that his Minister responsible for Manfor in his statements earlier this year has some what misinformed the public when he indicated that the projected loss for Manfor for this year would be $5 million, rather than $12 million when you include depreciation? MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Minister responsible for Manfor. HON. J.

STORIE: Madam Speaker , on a point of order, I believe the member has used an unparliamentary word and ... SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HON. J. STORIE: Mada m Sp eaker , if it isn't unparliament ary, it is certainly inaccurate. Madam Speaker , I indicated some time ago, when I tabled the Annual Report and in questioning prior to that, that the cash loss of Manfor would be $5.2 million, exactly as was reported this morning in committee. MR. J. DOWNEY: Madam Speaker , I would ask the First Minister to check into what the Minister had indicated and report to this Assembly.

I have a further question dealing with Manfor, Madam Speaker. Would the First Minister reconsider his priorities, Madam Speaker , when it comes to dealing with the people of The Pas and take just a little bit of the money that he's putting into the support of Manfor to maintain an agriculture representative 's office for the farm community in that district? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker , let me assure the Honourable Member for Arthur, with the Honourable Member for The Pas, the Minister of Nor thern Affairs, that there is continued good stewardship insofar as the constituents of The Pas are concerned. MADAM SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has expired. NON-POLITICAL STATEMENT MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker , I would like to have permi ssion to proceed with a non-politi cal statement. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister has leave. HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker , I am sure that all members of this Chamber were saddened this morning to awake to hear of the unfortunate death of one who is known by us all, including mem bers of the media present, in the personage of Jack Kusch. I would like to take this opportunity to pass on to Jack's friends and to his family and loved ones our deepest sympathy at this his untimely death at the age of 48. Mr. Kusch spent many years as a journalist and as a legislative reporter here in Manitoba. He was well­ liked by us all as an individual, as a professional.

He will be, I know, missed by those in the profession and by his friends. Democracy in Canada and in the Province of Manitoba is not only served by those of us who sit in this Legislature, but also by an informed electorate and by the media and reporters of the personage of Jack Kusch . He was dedi cated and commi tted as an individual to the demo cratic process and, in that role as a journalist, he participated deeply in that process. Fairness, accuracy and responsibility were the goals that he constantly strove for.

I know that he will be missed by all who worked with him, all of us who were reported upon, by those of us who listened to him, by his friends, by his relativ es . Again, particularly to his family, our deepest sympathy goes to them at this time. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Madam Speaker . I would like to join with the Premier and members op posite in expressing sadness at the passing of Jack Kusch. Indeed, I believe that I speak for all on this side of the House when I say we've lost an old friend.

Jack covered this Legislature for a period of seven years and many of us got to know him on a personal basis, on a social basis, and spent many happy hours together. We enjoyed his company; we enjoyed his good humour. We enjoyed his general good nature in dealing with people and the way in which he covered this House in a fair and a balanced manner, and one that I think did credit to him at all times as a journalist.

I guess that all of us recall hours spent together with Jack, trips that I like to recall, going to Brandon to the annual excursion to the Winter Fair, his coverage of Cabinet tours when we were in government and all of the times that we were able to spend together, aside from the professional opportu nities, professional relationships that we had. So I say, on behalf of all of my colleagues, farewell to an old comrade and friend. We will remember him well, and indeed we wish to join in expressing sincerest 2059

Tuesday, 22 July, 1986 condolenc es to his daughter and members of his family at this very sad time . Thank you. COMMITTEE CHANGES MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ellice. MR. H. SMITH: The Economic Development Committee changes : the Member for The Pas substituting for the Member for Seven Oaks ; the Member for Gimli substituting for the Member for Rossmere. ORDERS OF THE DAY MADAM SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Government House Leader. HON. J.

COWAN: I move that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolv e itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, seconded by the Member for Ellice. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Opposition House Leader . MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker, I wonder, has the Government House Leader indicated that there will be a committee meeting this Thursday. HON. J. COWAN: I'd like to discu ss with the Opposition House Leader following the question period wha t business we'd want to bring forward on Thursday .

I'd also like to indicate that we will be continuing the discussion of Health in the Chamber, and moving into a discussion on Education in the Committee Room. MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to cons ider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Health; and the Honourable Member for Kildonan in the Chair for the Department of Education. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - EDUCATION MR. CHAIRMAN, M. Dolin: Committee please come to order.

We are considering the Estimates of the Department of Education . We will begin with a statement by the Min ister. The Honourable Minister of Educati on. HON. J. STORIE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . I don 't intend to make a lengthy statement at this time. MR. CHAIRMAN: Hear, hear. HON. J. STORIE : Mr. Chairperson says, "Hear, hear." I did want to make a few comments about, I guess, the year that was and the year that will be and, in doing so, perhaps reflect on some of the important current issues which face the department , and I suppose the educational system throughout Manitoba.

If you want to reflect for just a moment on the past year in Education in terms of funding, I think it 's important to recognize that , since 1981, provincial support to education has increased from 432 million to 608 million , reflecting a significant concern for and commitment to the provincial system of education.

Despite that fairly significant increase in funding to education throughout the province in the public system and I believe an equal level of commitment to our community college system and our university system in many respects, funding is still an essential and an overriding concern for many of our school divisions , our university boards of governors and our community colleges.

Clearly , eac h of those sectors within the educational syst em are facin g continuing increasing demands on the part of the public that they serve and , at the same time, are facing ongoing, increasing operat ing costs , the major ity of which tend to be salaries in each of those sectors . Whether you 're talking about the universities or the community colleges or the public school system, you will still find that anywhere from 80 and more percent is directed at salaries. So funding continues to be a concern .

Certainly in my short tenure as Minister of Education to this point , I have had every indication that the expectations continu e to grow. School divisions, regardless of whether they cons ider themselves to be low-spending school divisions or high-spending school division s, feel that in many respe cts the current level of funding isn 't adequately addressing all of the needs that they have. I should say as well that the demands on the public school system, I think ever yon e understands , continue to escalate .

There are expectat ions which go much beyond the simple expectation that the curriculum will be implemented in such a way as to prepare our young people for the future. We have add itional expect ations come about that are faced by the system because of the fact that we have many recent immigrants , the fact that English is a second language to many of the people entering our school system. We sti ll have , I suppose, barriers to overcome as far as many Native Manitobans are concerned in addressing the needs that they bring to the school system .

We have an increasing array of educational incentives, programs , to meet the needs of the handicapped, those with very special needs in the system. If we look at the funding increase to the special needs area over the last few years, you can see a dramatic emphasis on meeting the needs of the multiple handicapped and those with special needs of differing scope and variety .

We have a need to make school at all levels, education at all levels , more accessible, and that continues to be a concern in much of rural and Northern Manitob a, accessibility not only to post-secondary education institutions, which is an obvious concern, but, as I've indicated on other occasions, in 1986 there are still students who at the age of 13 and 14 are expected to go to residential school for their high school education.

There are still students for whom the expectation that they will receive a high school education isn't particularly realistic because of their remoteness, because of the financial circumstances of their families, etc. 2060

Tuesday, 22 July, 1986 We have many small schools in the province who continue to look to the province for leadership through, I suppose, funding arrangements and support services to allow them to provide their students with an adequ ate and an appropr iate education. So on the one hand we have a legitimate concern about the level of funding and I believe a government which has certainly attem pted to live up to the expectations that the public holds for funding to the school system. On the other hand, you have expectations that continue, apparently , to rise faster than our ability to fund them.

We have the other side of the coin, I suppose, represented by the concerns of taxpayers. I have received representation from many different groups over the last couple of months, not the least of which is the Union of Manitoba Municipalities who expressed concern on behalf of property tax owners, farmers, who are concerned about the relationship between education and funding of education and property taxes. I think that we've attempted to hold the line and, as members of this comm ittee I'm sure know, that since 19 83 the residential and comm ercial educational support levy has remained constant.

However, that is not to say that the concerns that they expressed aren't legitimate, and I know that as we move through the sections dealing with funding to the public school system that those will also be addre ssed. Over the last few years, as wel l, we have spent considerable capital on school upgrading and new construction in the province. Some $37 million has been targeted for this fiscal year and I believe that is similar to what was expended in the fiscal year 19 85-86.

If we look to the universities, we can see, again, a considerable emph asis on capital expenditures as we have a number of new buildings at the University of Manitoba, a new field house at the university and, again, an emphasis on the construction of educational assets for the Province of Manitoba which will last long beyond the impact that this committee has on the course of educational events. The commu nity colle ges have expanded very significantly their outreach activities over the last two years.

I have said on many occasions that accessibility is an important aspect of the deli very of education in the province, and the new satellite stations and regional offices that have been established by Keewatin Community College in Flin Flon and Nor way House, and Assiniboine Community College is also extending its outreach with a satellite in Dauphin, which I hope will be open this fall. Again, some additional outreach activity in the northwestern part of the province, and Red River Community College, as well, extending its services to communities in southeastern Manitoba.

In terms of prio rities for the coming year, I suppose a couple come to mind. One, of course, is the high school review, which I hope to be able to make some announcement on in the very near future. The high school review has a list of tasks before it already as individual groups and rep resentative groups in the educational field have made their concerns known about the high school system.

Cle arly, I could list a range of topics that I think the high school review should and undoubtedly will review as part of its mandate, and they include issues like the core subjects that are taken at high school; the 2061 vocational needs of Manitoba young people; the que stion of science and technology and the adequ acy of that particular

section of our high school system; the credit versus alterna tive systems in the high school; student assessment; and again, the question of accessibility which is still very much a prob lem , particularly in rural Manitoba. So those issues, I am sure, will be addr essed and the public will have an opportunity to present their particular perspectives on those issues and others, as they see fit, over the course of the coming year.

In addition to that, the previous Minister of Education announced, I believe in January, that we would be initiating a series of activities designed to improve the quality of educ ation in Manitoba. I have referenced a couple of those in my comments to que stions in the House, and I would like to outline just very briefly some of the areas in which the department, in cooperation with - and I em phasize "in cooperation with" - the Manitoba Association of School Tr ustees, the Manitoba Teac hers' Socie ty, the Manitoba Association of School Superintendents, etc., will be dealing over the next few months.

One that I have referenced already is the question of in-service for professional staff in our school system. An inter-org anizational consultation paper has already been prepared and I think it's refreshing in its frankness. In-service has been a bone of contention, I think, on the part of some teachers, some administrations, some school divisions, certainly some parents, over the course of many years.

I found it certainly gratifying to see a frank look at the question of in-service, the value, the ne ed for it. it's my hope that in each of the initiative areas there will be that kind of inter-organizational cooperation because I think we recognize that the educational system is large and cumbersome in a sense. lt is certainly well ingrained, which makes it difficult to change dir ection, to the extent that reform and improvement and progress is going to be made in the system; it's going to require the de dication, the commitment of more than just the Department of Education.

I think we're off to a good start with the consultation paper on in-service and there are a number of other areas where we will be working with these groups to foster impr ovement within the system. One of the areas I think that most members of this Committee will be interested in is the area of parent­ teacher, parent-school contact and collaboration, another area where the cooperation certainly of the Te achers' Society and the Tr ustees Association is going to be critical.

The initiatives include activities designed to highlight the successes of projects, programs within schools and make these successes better known to other schools within the province. We're hoping to create a network of successful and innovative schools to demons trate to other areas, other school comm unities that educational change is possible and produ ctive and worthwhile.

In addition to that, the initiatives include action to retrain teachers, to make sure that the current teaching staffs in our schools are prepared and ready to support our efforts at curriculum development and curriculum change as it occurs. Initiative is also needed in the area of training both teachers and administrators on the use of student

Tuesday, 22 July, 1986 assessment. Student assessment has been a concern of many parents and has been a public issue for some time and I think there needs to be a joint review again of the issues surrou nding the cont roversy and surrounding the scope of student assessment.

Finally, some work has already been done - in fact, a guide has been prepared and distributed to school divisions, I believe, on local planning efforts to insure that local school divisions have a well-defined educational policy, a well-defined set of objectives which they and their admi nistration and teachers are implementing and the department is providing support staff and assistance to local school divisions in their efforts to create the atmosphere necessary for the continuing development of education within our school divisions. There are a number of other areas that I could touch on, Mr. Chairperson.

There's only one that I would like to touch on briefly before we commence. I'll leave the others aside. I'm sure that they will come up in questions over the course of the Estimates review, and that is the question - and I believe a serious one - with respect to federal actions over the past couple of years which need to be of great concern to all of us here with respect to funding for post-secondary education. I think members of the committee know that myself and the Minister of Health atten ded a Standing Comm ittee of Parliament to present a brief on behalf of Manitoba on the implications of Bill C-96.

In short form, I suppose the analysis has to be something like this. The provinces, not only in Manitoba but I think most provinces in the country, most jurisdictions in the world have found that the costs of education and health, but in this case we're speaking of education, have increased generally beyond the rate of inflation, beyond the growth of our provincial and national economies by 2 percent to 3 percent. The impact of Bill C-96 is essentially to lock in federal contributions to 2 percent less GNP, which is going to create a shortfall of funding over a period of time.

As time goes by, the implications become more onerous and more difficult, particularly for provinces without the financial resources to deal with it. In addition to that, there have been a number of other changes which have come about in a unilateral way which are going to affect the post-secondary system. The Department of Emp loyment and Immigration, through CEIC, has made a unilateral decision to cut back on the number of direct spaces it purchases in our community colleges.

The end result of that, over a three-year period, is going to be about a 40 percent reduction in the direct federal purchase of spaces in community colleges. it's going to leave a serious shortfall in our community college system and leave us with the difficult prospect of, in effect, covering that loss over that period of time and into the future. lt also means that some 1, 000 to 2,000 students are going to be looking elsewhere for training, or not have training opportunities made available to them. So that is something that the department's going to face.

My intention in bringing this up at this time is not to create so much a political argument about whether it was or wasn't necessary. I've said many times that the Federal Government faces its own set of circumstances with which it's trying to deal. But it is important that it be on the rec ord, because the educational system in Manitoba is going to have to cope with those changes. it's something that we are prepared to do, but it is going to create some difficulties and it is going to mean some adjustment and some shortfall, I suppose, that the province may or may not be able to cover. Apart from that, Mr.

Chairperson, I turn the floor over to my colleagues. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister. The Member for Fort Garr y. MR. C. BIRT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I, first of all, would like to extend my thanks and appreciation on behalf of myself and my colleagues for the cooperation we have received from the Minister to date on supplying us with certain information. I know he's had some difficult ies in getting one or two publications through his department, but he has tried his best to provide it and, for that, I would like to thank him. I also would like to welcome him to the large de bate of education.

This is the first time he has taken the front seat and this is the first time I have been involved in the deba te on education and its financing and how it should proceed in this province. I also welcome to this debate several new members that we have in our caucus. A number of my colleagues in the past have been involved in the debates on education, some have shared the responsibility of being chief critic; but we now have in our caucus four new members, primarily from Springfield, Aiel, Roblin­ Russell and Ste. Rose, who've all been school trustees or chairmen of their school divisions.

I think they bring a unique point of view in the sense that in many instances they, like the Minister, have had to juggle the responsibility of raising money, providing services and trying to provide a quality level of education in their constituencies. That will be a welcome addition in reviewing the Estimates; in fact, in developing the deba te on education and hopefully the policies for the future in Manitoba. I also would like to take the opportun ity to welcome the Member for River Heights whose experience in education is well known. I think she, too , will contribute to these debates.

In my statement, I would like to deal with some of the concerns that we have as a caucus and it will be asking questions either now or in the House on. The foremost or the most important one in the minds of many in this province is a funding formula for the education. At present, I believe there are three formulas in place and they apply to different portions of the province. There lacks a degree of common sense or equity in any of these formulas; in fact, why there should be more than one formula is a mystery. lt is time for a major overhaul of the funding formula in education.

This does not necessarily mean the review of taxation or tax assessment, though it goes hand in hand. I think it's important that the Mi nister initiate a review on this whole issue because he has been inundated by a number of individual school divisions. A number have come in the group, in particular in We stern Manitoba, to deal with this whole question of the funding formula. 2062

Tuesday, 22 July, 1986 I find it surprising that as the Minister touched on this issue in his opening remarks that he has not, on his own, initiated steps to be taken to try and clarify and resolve some of the inequities in the whole funding formula process. Now we're not talking about the supplement ary financing programs, but we're talking about the basic formula for funding the school divisions in the province. I believe that the Manitoba Te achers' Society will be making representations to the Minister some time this year on this issue.

The Minister has alluded it's the municipal trustees that have made representa tions. I know we, as politicians, have made repres entations either through questions in the House or arranging meet ings with the interested people with the Minister. So I'm surprised that the Minister has not taken an initiative at this time to start this whole process. The other interesting aspect of it is that it may not require additional funding. lt may require just the reallocation of the monies going on the funding formula so that there can be more equity in the system.

I think this is the underlying issue in this whole problem area is the inequity that exists in the current funding formulas.

The second area of concern that we have is the funding or the lack of funding as it relates to the universities and the post-seco ndary universities. it's interesting that the Minister raised the question of the deba te as to whether or not the Federal Government has or has not impacted on the educational scene in Manitoba or will in the future. lt is interesting to note that there was an increase in the transfer of funds to the province for post­ secondary education in the neighbourhood of some 6 percent or 6.5 percent; yet the amount of funds allocated to education was 5.8 percent, but to the universities, in particular, they only got 3.8 percent, and when you boil it down to their current operating level, they only got 2.78 percent of new discretionary funds.

As we've seen in the newspapers, one university in particular has to cut back dramatically. So I will be pursuing with the Minister why there has not been at least an equivalent transfer of funds to the post­ secondary education institutions in light of the large and reasonable funding increase that was received from the Federal Government.

The de bate as to whether or not the Federal Government should be changing the funding formula as it affects its priorities or needs, I agree, do not fit this particular Chamber; but it's the allocation of the resources that this province has or should be applying to its universities and post-secondary schools that is important and I intend to pursue that here. Another area of concern is the quality of appointments to universities and the involvement of this government in the running of the affairs of the universities of this province. One of my colleagues will be raising questions in this particular area.

We have a dichotomy, or at least a dual policy, being enunciated by this government. One is that it's a hands­ off situation, they're autonomous, they can run their own affairs; yet at the same time this policy was being enunciated, you have a government appointing the majority of members to boards and, in some instances, being involved in the running of the affairs of those universities. So if they are to be autonomous, then the government should not have any political appoin tees to their boa rds and those institutions should be responsible for their own election of board of governors.

If the government is to make its own appointees, then why shouldn't they be in the minority and not the majority position? But if the government chooses to continue to appoint the majority of the members, then it has a dir ect involvement in the universities, albeit maybe through a surrogate, but it is still involved in running the affairs of the universities.

Another concern that I have, and that we have, is that the Minister has not seen fit to enunciate any policy or any review for the role of the universities and colleges in the latter half of this decade and, in particular, as it leads up to the year 2000 for this province. In fact, I was rather surprised and disappointed that during the campaign the Minister's party did not enunciate any specific policies relating to education.

But in to day's age of high technology and rapid change, I find it surprising that the tools that one is given to m,eet the challenges of today are not being reviewed and upgraded constantly. I belie ve that there were some changes made in one of the community college structures, but what we're talking about is the all ocation of resources to make sure that these resources are properly utilized and that the institutions are giving the right type of training or education to Manitoba youngsters to meet the problems of tomorr ow.

But there is not, from what I can determine, any policy or any attempt to identify these needs, these concerns, and where these institutions should be going. Another concern raised by our caucus is the question of independent schools and its funding. This issue will not go away; it will be with us. We must deal with it fairly and equit ably, and I will be dealing with this issue during the de bates. Another issue that is of concern to us is the role of parents in the educational system.

The Minister has talked about two potential reviews: one dealing with the high school review and the other dealing with the quality of education. He specified specific items that he wanted to deal with, but nowhere in there is there a role for parents in the school system. To make the schools function properly , to remove the alienation that parents feel toward the public school system, to ensure that the schools, the teachers, the administrators, the principals receive the support that they should get, one has to work back in the idea of the com munity school and get the support and involvement of the parents.

I can agree that in some instances or in some school areas, this is successful but on general it is not. There are home and school organizations but they seem to beg the question, or don't go far enough, in helping give support to those people who are trying to provide education; and I'm surprised that the Minister has not made any announcement or identification of trying to get the parents back into the system so that they can become useful and helpful partners in providing education toda y.

The Minister has touched on the high school review, but as we enunciated in the campaign and are most concerned about, is the number of compulsory core subjects that are required for a student to graduate out of high school. lt is our position that the current plan is inadequate. We look forward to the debate, the review proposed to be unde rtaken by the High School 2063

Tuesday, 22 July, 1986 Review Commission, but one cannot help, in fact one does not wish to prejudge what they may find; but I think it is a given that students cannot succeed today in the present situation where they only need five basic subjects , one in Grade 12, to graduate .

It is important that employers be advised as to the type of degrees that students get when they come out , whether it is a top-of-the-line course , whether it is not just a general pass , but the type of education so that employers can know, when they hire people , whether or not those students are qualified for the jobs that they want them to be. It's only with the involvement of the employers and with parents in this area that we can get a good, sound, basic training in education.

There is also a concern for the development of departmental exams and/or the question of student testing or student evaluation because parents want to have some form of report card or testing measure on the schools, the teachers, their trustees. It's not, in any sense, to be a destructive process, but one that can be used in a positive sense, one that can early identify failings or shortcom ings and the alloca tions of resources to help shore up or reinforce those areas of weakness.

This is not meant to focus the teach er spending a whole year just so they can pass an exam at the end of the year and learn nothing else. For some $400 million or $500 million being spent on a public school system, they feel that they have a right to know how that system is functioning . If it is functioning well, then this type of either exams or testing process will allay any fears , but as I pointed out earlier , the key in all of this is to try and determine any shortfalls or shortcomings and to reinforce and remove those shortcom ings.

In any exercise , the review of the high school review , it is important to involve representatives in the universities and colleges because right now they are highly critical of the quality of graduates that are coming out of the public school system.

It is important that they not only be involved in any question of review but also be used in a continuing , consultative basis to ensure that the public system is giving the prope r training for those who wish to go to them, because I would surmise - I've not seen any statistics on it - but the bulk of students finishing Grade 12 go on to some post-secondary educational level. If they are in fact not providing the right type of training, then these other institutions should not have to waste time , talent or energy to upgrade those students .

They should be working cooperat ive ly together to make sure that the student who's graduating out of Grade 12 is in fact ready to meet the particula r discipline that is needed . Therefore, we need to include them in the process. The one area that has not been touched on by the Minister and is of concern to myself and my colleagues is the whole area of curriculum development . Granted , it may be addressed in the proposed reviews for high schools or in the quality of education , but probably one of the largest flash points in the educat ional system today is the lack of involvement or consultation with parents.

Generally speaking, in any curriculum development or any review, you get professionals involved, and that is terrific , but you have to start getting the parents involved someplace. This is an important area, and I think it's time that we started consulting them , not on an occasional basis but on a regul ar basis, and they should be part of any ongoing development process . That concludes my openin g remarks , Mr. Chairman.

I would just like to ask the Minister for two to thre e pieces of additional information that I didn't have an opportunity to ask him for and that some time during the course of these Estimates he could provide them . One of them would be a list of consultants employed by the departmen t and their job descr ipti ons , and it need only be brief , and any fees being paid for them . I'm not talking now those people who are involved in voluntary or receive minimal compensation for, say, curriculum development things, that sort of thing ; it would be in a consultant type of process or actually with the department.

Secon dly, the Minister made reference to the reduction of some 40 percent in spaces at the com munity colleges because of the redu ction in the way the Federal Government is providing training in the province . I'm wonder ing if the Minister has some documentation or factual evidence that I could see or refer to, because in any public statements he's made he's used these general statements , but I've yet to find any background or support material for them and I'd appreciate seeing them .

The other area of information I would like is that I believe that the Province of Manitoba, and in particular the Department of Education, works in recommending jobs-gratitude programs to the Federal Government and the n the Federal Governmen t either approves or disapproves them. I'm wondering , if this is correct , if the Minis ter can provide the process by which it comes about , how much money is allocated to this area, what staff are involved and, generally, a general explanatio n for this area.

Now I may have the names wrong, but I think the re is a consultative process dealing with other job training or whatever it is. If I'm wrong in the terminology, I apologize , but if there's any problems, maybe we could clarify it later . Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. We will begin on Page 50, Resolution No. 46. Deferring Item 1.(a), we'll begin with Item 1.(

b) Executive Support : Salaries. The Member for Fort Garry. I'm sorry , if the staff would like to com e forward , belatedly . MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, before going into the specific clause by clause, as we're into, I take it, 1.(

b) which is Deputy Minister's Salary and office, I would like to ask some general questions . Hopefully we can deal with them, then move on to the specific items. My first question is approximately a year ago, I believe , the Cabinet approved two individuals in the Department of Education , one Dr. Glenn Nicholls , and Mr. Guy Roy, to review the impac t of the Charter and its effect on the Department of Education, its statutes and its school boards. It makes reference I believe that a Cabinet Ord er was passed. I'm wondering if there was an ord er, there is a criteria or terms of referen ce for this committee, and if so, could the Minister provi de me with a copy of it? 2064

Tuesday, 22 July, 1986 HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I believe I've dealt with this in question period a number of times. The review is essentially - again the two individuals - the member is quite correct in that two individuals were recommended in a Cabinet paper to undertake the review. As the member knows and as I'v e indicated previou sly, the Attorney-General is in the process of bringing in compliance legislation and there have been two separate bills dealing with Charter compliance. The Public Schools Act is a large act, encompassing many different sections, and the review is intended to look at The Public Schools Act with respect to three sections of the Charter:

Section 2,

Section 15, and

Section 23. lt is an internal revi ew. The report recommended changes, or whatever, to bring The Public Schools Act into compliance with the Charter of Rights. lt probably won't be completed until later on this year, early next year, and if there are any changes to be made - and I emphasize "if there are any changes to be made" - I would expect to be introducing them to The Public Schools Act through Public Schools Act amendments in the next Session. MR. C. BIRT: I take it from the Minister's answer then that there will be no amendments coming forth at this Session relating to this particular review? HON. J.

STORIE: No, Mr. Chairperson. MR. C. BIRT: Is it just these two individuals that are conducting the review or do they have an advisory team or body in place to assist them? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, the only assistance would come by way of the A-G's Department. MR. C. BIRT: Could the Minister advise how often the A-G is involved? Is the Attorney-General's Department conducting the primary review? Do the members ident ify the concerns; do they refer them to the review in the A-G's? Could the Minister elabor ate exactly how the A-G's Department is involved? HON. J.

STORIE: Well the intention would be to flag areas of concern. Obvio usly the A-G's Department would be providing the legal technical advice and following up with any of the pertinent amendments and drafting of amendments, etc. MR. C. BIRT: To this point, what areas of concern have this Com mittee discovered or felt would be a problem? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, to be honest, I have not sat down with them and discussed at this point their particular findings and concerns.

I would anticipate - and I'm sure members have already done so - that areas of special needs would obviously be an area under consideration; the question of religious exercises in school. As the member knows, there have been a number of court cases - a recent one in Ontario I believe - with respect to that issue. How ever I point out to the memb er, and I have said before, that the Charter is a relatively new document and before moving precipitously to act to amend our legislation, I would certainly want to be assured that there was a necessity for it.

That may involve waiting for further determinations to be made by the courts in some cases and see whether there in fact is a general consensus developing around a number of those issues before proceed ing to amend the legislation. I'm not a lawyer, however, I certainly understand that courts, from time to time, reflect quite differently on the same issue under different circumstances. I wouldn't want to presume too much in making amendments in an attempt to deal with Charter compliance. MR. C. BIRT: Is the Minister aware of any challenges in Manitoba that fall within his jurisdiction relating to the Charter?

HON. J. STORIE: I'm not aware of any at the present time. MR. C. BIRT: Has there been a number of issues raised by the public or individuals in the public relating to the Charter that have caused some review and maybe some findings by this Committee? HON. J. STORIE: Two that I'm aware of raised in an indirect fashion would be the rights of parents' access to information issues, the religious exercises issues which the Human Rights Commission reviewed. Those two in particular come to mind. MR. C.

BIRT: I believe the Minister has been quoted in at least a recent newsletter by MAST - if it is an incorr ect quote - but the reference is I believe that any Charter questions you believe should go to the courts. Now is this the gove rnment's position or is this review attempting to head off any questions going to court? HON. J. STORIE: I can't remember the context in which those remarks were made exactly, however, I believe I was indicating that there may be in fact challenges or the question of a challenge of a particular

section of The Public Schools Act may be raised from time to time by a group with the assumption that there is support from the Charter. I was indicating that because the Charter is used as reference in an argument does not mean that argument is infallible. Clearly, the issues that the Charter raises implicitly will be dealt with over the next several generations probably in the courts as politicians and, unfortunately perhaps in some people's views, courts come to grips with some of the issues such as the question of rights, the rights of parents and the rights of special needs children, etc.

What I was trying to indicate is that I don't think one should act in haste for fear of the Charter. A course has been set already in some of the

interpretations of the Charter. There has been very little by way of Charter review of public schools acts, similar acts across the country at this point. They may or may not set some precedents in those decisions when they come. MR. C. BIRT: Is this comm ittee in consultation with the other provinces to learn what may be happening in their jurisdictions? HON. J. STORIE: The answer is yes. MR. C. BIRT: Two areas of concern to me are the rights of parents and the religious exercise question. 2065

Tuesday, 22 July, 1986 I'm not quite certain whether or not the new Freedom of Information Act, if and when it ever comes in, would allow parents access to certain information. Is there a problem in not allowing parents access to information involved in the decision-making process? HON. J. STORIE: I'm not clear if the member is asking me a legal - I think I've indicated on a number of occasions that, in my opinion , parents should not only have access but be encouraged to have access to most of the assessment information that teachers compile during the year. I believe that is a good educational practice.

I believe that many schools encourage that practice. The sharing of information, as long as it's done in a judicious and professional way, can do nothing but enhance the potential for individual growth. Again I mentioned that would be one of the areas in which the department would be involved with MAST and MTS over the coming year in the Quality of Education Initiatives. It is an area of concern.

I think there needs to be some opening up, a better understanding on the part of parents and perhaps on the part of teachers and administrations of the usefulness of that information in creating a rapport between parents and the school. MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, the Minister has given sort of two answers, and maybe they flow one from the other, but I didn't take it to mean that. He had indicated that, late this year or early next year, he will be moving on certain changes, if needed, to The Public Schools Act, and he identified the rights of parents and the access to information.

Yet he has now indicated that's going to be an issue of review and consultation by the Quality of Education Review. My question to the Minister is: is he prepared to bring in some form of legislation outlining parents' rights at the next Session of the Legislature, or is it to be the basis of an independent review or consultation process with the public over the next year or so? HON. J. STORIE: Well I don't think I would indicate that there is a need to bring in legislation, obvious ly not unless there was a specific challenge based on the Charter and that was sustainable.

I have no idea whether that would be or not. I guess it would depend on what kind of information was being requested . I think what I indi cated and what I hope will happen as a result of the interorganizational review of the question of student assessment generally is that we will come to an understanding amongst the majo r organizations that the sharing of assessment information is a useful educational practice .

If for no other reason, not being concerned at this point with parents' rights and Charter challenges and all the rest of it, it's a reasonable thing to do, and it leads to a better understanding of how an individual is progressing. MR. C. BIRT: So, as I take it, there are going to be two independent inquiries.

One is going to be a public review or consultation process to determine the merits of establishing either legislative changes or no legislative changes, and the other one being the review of the Charter to see whether or not there are any rights there 2066 for parents that may or may not be affected if they go to the courts. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairman , not exactly in either case. In one case , two individuals are doing a review of The Public Schools Act internally. That 's the extent of it.

In the other case , there is, within the department, staff who have established a number of initiatives, one of which will be the review of student assessment and the involvement of teachers and administrators in student assessment and the uses of student assessment material. The organizations involved, MAST, MTS, the superintendents, need to review that amongs t themselves, and see how student assessment is being used and whether it's being used appropriately and what kind of information can and should be shared with what groups . So that's a separate process involving groups involved in education. MR. C.

BIRT: When will the parents or public get to have any say on the policy or legislative change that may evolve as a result of this departmental review that you've just made reference to? HON. J. STORIE: I can't say specifically. The organizations are planning, first of all, to develop a position paper, a point of departure for discussion purposes , on those questions. The intention is, at this point , to work with professional staff. Whether there will be some outreach to involve and inform parents, I guess, is a question that has yet to be answered . I presume it will. MR. C.

BIRT: Doesn 't the Minister think that, if you're dealing with the question of access of parental rights or access to informat ion by parents, they should be consulted - not maybe , not if - but they should become part of the debate, part of the process, that the professionals can have their input? We're talking about the public having some degree of supervision or involvement in their children's lives. I would ask the Minister that he set up the consultative process with the public after perhaps the professionals have looked at it , reviewed it, made sure th ey ' ve had all the paramenters .

I think it's impo rtant that you get them involved, not maybe. HON. J. STORIE: I don't have any disagreement with what the member is saying . MR. C. BIRT: My next question touches on the question of religious exercise. Is the department in the process of carrying out a review of this whole area of religious exercise in schools and individuals ' rights as they relate to religious exercises? HON. J. STORIE: Well, Mr.

Chairperson, as you know, the issue has been raised and, as a result of that issue, I did meet with the representatives of the Manitoba Human Rights Commission and the focus of our discussion was around a particular incident that the member is aware of. I have indicated as well that there is no immediate plans to change The Public Schools Act, not in this Session, and obvious ly any decision to

Tuesday, 22 July, 1986 make any changes would be dependent upon further discussions with the Human Rights Commission any similar relevant issues which are raised in other jurisdictions and how they're resolved, either by the courts or in other areas. MR. C. BIRT: Is the question of governance, especially as it relates to French education, French Immersion being examined by this comm ittee within the department and how that question is affected or may not be affected by the Charter? HON. J. STORIE: Well, Mr. Chairperson, that particular issue was originally foreseen as one of the questions that could be raised under the Charter - I forget which

section -

Section 15 of the Charter, one of the three anyway, and it's an issue that has been raised as well by a number of parent-teacher or gan izations, Francophone parent-teacher organizations. Again, similar issues to that have been dealt with by the courts in Alberta and Ontario without much satisfaction I think. I don't think there's been much resolved from those, but clearly there is a view amongst some that there is room for a Charter challenge on the issue of governance and particularly of Francais schools, not of immersion or other schools that are involved in the Basic French program. MR. C.

BIRT: I believe that there was correspondence, in fact, a report given between the SFM and the Department of Education dealing with this question of governance. My question to the Minister is: is it still being studied by the department, and if so what will they be recommending on this issue? HON. J. STORIE: Certainly I don't think while I'v e been Minister there has been - (Interjection) - MR. C. BIRT: No, it was your pred ecessor, I'm sorry. HON. J. STORIE: . . . di rect involvement or consultation or discussions or whatever with the SFM.

I did meet with a group of, actually representatives of six different groups, all Franco- Manitobans and discussed a broad range of issues, one of which was the question of governance. I indicated to them as I have here that that issue has been raised in other jurisdictions. There is no easy solution and that my intention would be to review the issues and hopefully come to some conclusion in the next few months, I believe I told them, as to whether there was any intention to proceed to make amendments at the provincial level or whether leave open the door of a court challenge. MR. C.

BIRT: Is the Minister telling us that no one in the department is currently reviewi ng the question of governance and the various forms that it may take and how it relates to the regulation of the French and even French Immersion programs being offered in Manitoba at the present time? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, there is no review of any of the questions that the member raises with respect to French Imm ersion. I'v e indicated that that was not part of the discussion. I bel ieve it was with respect to Francais schools.

Yes, there have been various options put forward within the department for resolution of this issue. They range all the way from doing noth ing to going to court, or al lowing or encouraging a challenge under the section. There has been no decision to this point. As I'v e indicated there have been a number of, at least two other, challenges based on similar circumstances which have been dealt with by the court, and neither one of them were resolved, I don't think, to either parties satisfaction. MR. C.

BIRT: I'v e been advised that I believe the Minister gave an undertaking that he would respond to this question in some three -month time frame. I'm just wondering has the Minister responded to this particular group and if so what was the response. HON. J. STORIE: Mr . Chairperson, I have not responded to da te and I' ve ind icated that the department has brought forward a number of options ranging from do-nothing status quo to encouraging a court challenge, and no decision has been made to date.

I expect that I will be meeting again in the near future with the group to review the issue and see whether there's any further information that needs to be added to the mix before a decision is reached . MR. C. BJRT: The Minister is indicating that it's still under review and no decision one way or the other is presently taking place.

I might move to a slightly different issue, but again something that the Minister's made reference to, I believe, in the interview with the MAST - at least it was in the most recent newslett er - and he makes reference to making the educational system more efficient in its progra mming. I'm wondering what the Minister means by that particular phraseology and what steps if any he's undertaking to bring that about. HON. J. STORIE: I'm sorry, I missed the first part of that question - efficiency in which system? MR. C.

BIRT: Efficiency in educational programming, at least, that's the phrase that's used both in the newsletter and, I believe, in the School Te acher, the MTS newspaper . HON. J. STORJE: Mr. Chairperson, I referred to two different aspects of efficienc y. One of course is that most students spend many years within the school system, public and otherwise, and unfortunately we still have people who, for whatever reason, don't experience the degree of success within the system that we would like.

By efficiency I mean that we can see all students who enter the system leave the system - leave the system with a quality education. The second aspect relates to efficiencies I believe that are possible between institutions, particularly the secondary system and the community colleges. I think there are also efficiencies that can be had between the colleges and the universities, that in fact there are overlapping programs, courses, course content, which can be elimina ted. There is an example of a high school in Winnipeg offering courses which have been approved 2067

Tuesday, 22 July, 1986 by the community college. The end result is a student receives both a high school diploma and a certificate from a community college, in effect providing both a high school education and a certificate for employment, if you will. Those kinds of things, I think there is some room for that throughout the system. MR. C. BIRT: The Minister is talking in a general sense, sort of in a global concern. I'm wondering what steps, if any, he has instituted or will be taking in relation to this question of efficiency in the deliv ery of educational pro gramming. HON. J.

STORIE: A number of the Quality of Education Initiatives, of course, but also the High School Review, which I expect will deal quite thoroughly with the question of vocational education. I think that's one of the areas where there may be some efficiency and we can elimi nate, in some respects, the duplication of effort that goes on at our high schools and our community colleges, or our high schools and our universities, or between the community colleges and the universities themselves. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for Roblin-Russell. MR. L.

DERKACH: With respect to this same area that we're talking about, are you suggesting that the courses that are being offered in high school now are also being offered at community colleges and universities at the same level of expectation? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I think that there are courses that could be offered at the high school level which would complement or replace courses being offered in our community college system.

I have one example where an arrangement has been worked out between a high school and a community college, and that was with respect to, I believe, child care worker certificates at Te ch Voc. Obviously, that isn't going to be possible in every case. I'm just saying that there are some possibilities there. MR. L. DERKACH: You're not talking about any core courses in high school; you'r e talking abo ut the electives.

So what you're saying is students are going to be able to take courses in high school and get credit for them, the same as they are getting credit for it at a university or a community college at this time.? HON. J. STORIE: We 're only talking about community college at this time. MR. L. DERKACH: No, you said universities as well. HON. J. STORIE: The International Baccalaureate Program is an example where some universities recognize courses taken under that program. So it is possible. What I'm saying is that the High School Review, I think, should look at that question seriously.

I'm not holding out the prospect that this is going to happen immed iately. I'm saying that there are some tentative steps. We will await, I guess, further evaluation of how successful they've been. But I had indicated that I thought that was an area where we could proceed and perhaps make some progress. MR. L. DERKACH: Again then, what kind of a credit would that student receive? You're talking about efficiency of programming and allowing students to take in high school programs that are currently being offered in community colleges and possibly in universities.

Then what type of a credit would that individual receive? Would it be a credit equal to that being received in a university today? HON. J. STORIE: In this case, the community college. I'm telling you as a specific example where high school Grade XII students, I guess, take just one year, an advance credit basically, and receive recognition from the community college.

I would indicate too that there's another aspect to this in that some high schools are or would like to include adults in their vocational streams, in their systems as well, another area where we have extensive, in some cases, exceptional facilities for vocational training, and yet we exclude adults. We build another facility. Some school divisions have indicated an interest in pursuing the possibility of adult training. I think again that's a question of efficiency. MR. L.

DERKACH: So what we're talking about is overhauling the entire high school credit system, offering and deleting programs which may in fact , in the department's view, be ineffective, and putting in a roster of courses which, in the department's view, are more efficient and more effect ive. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, the member is sounding particularly Orwellian here. I wasn't suggesting the department was going to do that. I was asked the question about efficiency and an explanation for my remarks to MAST , and that's the explanation.

The High School Review, I think it is a legitimate question. lt's being raised not by myself necessarily but by school divisions and educational groups. We have some experience now that tells us that there is a possibility, and I would hope that the High School Review, in its review, would be dealing with the question of the appropria teness, the efficacy of providing training at different levels and utilizing our facilities to a greater degree. MR. L.

DERKACH: With regard to student assessment programs that have been going on, the Minister seemed to indicate in his comments that, to this point, there has been very little information received from superintendents of schools regarding their sort of assessment of the whole process. Is this what the Minister was saying? HON. J. STORIE: I'm not sure I get the gist of the question. MR. L. DERKACH: I think the Minister indicated that the student assessment process is going to be reviewed as to how you can better utilize it.

Now are you suggesting that, to date, there has been no input from superintendents of schools and from school divisions regarding that student assessment? 2068

Tuesday, 22 July, 1986 HON. J. STORIE: No.

I don't think to this point there has been a thorough and consistent review of the question of student asse ssment amongs t the organizations, and I have to emp hasize that the thrust of the Quality of Educ ation Initiati ves is the interorganizational aspect of it. lt involves not just the teachers saying, what are we doing for in-servicing? 1t involves MAST , the superintendents, the trustees, the Te achers' Society; it involves the principals and the universities. lt involves the major groups within the educational system coming together to look collectively at a problem, whether it be student assessment, teacher in-services, parental involvement. lt's a collective, collabor ative approach, and it is new and unique. lt has not been done, at least not in a definitive way.

MR. L. DERKACH: That's the point. I think, to date, there's been nothing done or very little done in that way. I'm wondering what the problem is. Why is it taking so much time and why is the process so slow in getting started in terms of getting these Quality of Education Initiatives and Quality of Education Review going? HON. J. STORIE: I'm not sure that I accept that it was slow. The Quality of Education Initiatives have met on a number of those seven different areas that they're going to addr ess. One position paper , the one on teacher in-servicing, has been prepared already .

The groups have met, they've come to some consensus about what the problems are at least, and I have asked staff to get ready copies because I would like to circulate that paper . I think it's very instructive. So we're dealing with those que stions and I want to separate what I'm talking about here quite distinctly from what's going on in the department in the area of curriculum assessment. The member and I have had some discussion about the department's activity with respect to curriculum assessment, but that's the department's role.

The question of student assessment, individual assessment and assessment mechanisms is something that is of great direct concern to the groups that I'v e mentioned. They will be trying to come to grips with the pr oblems and the possibil itie s of student assessment. MR. L. DERKAC H: When are we going to get some information with regard to who these groups are and who the names of these groups are and the criteria, and that sort of thing? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I believe I have given the member and members that information.

The inter-organizational papers that are produced as a result of this joint addressing of problems will be public documents. There is no intention of keeping them secret. The whole intention is to bring out some of the problems we had within the system and make them public and say, colle ctively, how we are going to addr ess these. As I'v e said, I will be circulating the one on teacher in-service and it's quite unique, I think, as a planning document. MR. L.

DERKACH: What avenue is there then for participation by individuals and groups throughout the province outside the profession itself to submit ide as, proposals and make representations? HON. J. STORIE: Well, along with most of these issues, there will be workshops.

In the main, I expect that the intention is for them to be professional workshops, but the Member for Fort Garry had indicated in his remarks that he felt that while it was useful and perhaps necessary for the groups to come to some consensus about what the problem was, and what we intended to do, and at that point solicit views from the public, from parent groups and so forth, that seems to be a reaso nable suggestion; althoug h, again, I haven't discussed that with the superintendents or the trustees or whatever, but it seems to be an important suggestion.

Apart from that, of course, I mean parents have access on an ongoing basis to school divisions, to school administrations, to individual teachers about assessment, about curriculum questions, about all of those other educational que stions. I get the feeling somehow that there's some sense among the Mem ber for Roblin-Ru ssell tha t the education system is secretive. Certain ly, the system that I came from is not particularly secretive.

To my knowledge, the question of access to information, access to teachers, the ability to have frank interviews with teachers about student progress and student assessment was an everyday occurance. There were few if any problems that I was aware of. Certainly , as a teacher, I know that I never refused any information requested by any parent about any student. MR. L. DERKACH: I don't think the Minister was listening in terms of he says that I'm suggesting that the department or he is secretive about information. HON. J. STORIE: No, the schools. MR. L. DERKACH: Or the schools for that matter.

That's not what I'm suggesting at all. But, by the Minister's answers, it is obvious that there appears to be lack of leadership in terms of which direction this whole process is going. There seems to be a lot of floundering in terms of how we get this thing rolling and started. HON. J. STORIE: lt is rolling. MR. L. DERKACH: lt is, but it isn't, like there isn't any input yet from superintendents. You haven't bothered to discuss it or haven't had the opportunity to discuss it. In your comments just a moment ago you said that you hadn't had the direct input from the superintendents to this point.

That's what I'm suggesting is that when you talk to superintendents, they don't even know which direction the department and the Minister is going right at the present time. HON. J. STORIE: I don't know how the member has misconstrued what I've said. I have indicated that MASS, MAST and the Manitoba Te achers' Society are all involved and have been involved in each one of those areas. They, collectively, are going to be producing the review of the problems associated with in-servicing, planning, student assessment, effective schools. To my knowledge that's a first; I thought that was leadership. 2069

Tuesday, 22 July, 1986 MR. l. DERKA CH: Mr . Chairman, I have some questions about the type of dir ection that is, but I can defer my comments with regard to the assessment and the high school review to a later time because this is going to be a more specific question and I think we want to cover it and this will be the time. MR. CHAIRMAN: At the mo ment we' re on 1. (

b) Executive Support. MR. L. DERKACH: discussion in this area. don't want to prolong the HON. J. STORIE: it's been very flexible. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Since we've gotten into the issue, I'd like to go back to the questions asked earlier by the Member for Fort Garry with regard to Charter questions. To some degree, I take issue with the Minister's statement, which he says that there is gr eat access to school administrators, principais, teachers.

I think he will find that that access varies a gr eat deal from school board to school board where many school boards in this province who go in camera for any controversial issue whatsoever. There are school administrators who refuse to allow parents to have access to any testing other than a strictly academic mathematics test. They do not allow, for example, access to CTBS test results. They certainly don't allow access to any I.Q. tests which are taken.

I have difficulty with regard to the Charter because if I take my child before a doc tor, I must first of all give permission for each and every test that that child has done on them, and then I am given the results of those tests. Despite the fact that I perhaps don't unde rstand the white blood count number better than if I was not a trained professional I might not understand the I.Q. number, I am given the white blood count numbe r. I think that we're going to be in serious problems in this province if we do not address the very serious Charter issue of rights of parents.

I'd like to know how the Minister intends to appro ach that access and if we are going to, in this province, in fact come up with a Bill of Rights for parents? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I know that that question has been raised and perhaps there is merit in reviewing that kind of a suggestion. What I have indicated is that I don't have the same sense - obviously I didn't work in the same school division as the Member for River Heights - however, I know people in the profession from across the province and I think the general philosophy is that kind of information should be shared.

As a teacher, I certainly shared, in this case, the California Achievement Te st scores with parents. I don't think there is anything wrong with that as long as one appreciates how the testing was done, the purpose it was designed for, and you make that clear in any kind of evaluation or assessment of those tests. What I would like to see, and I agree wholeheartedly that there is no consistency amongst divisions in the way tha t assessment is dealt with, assessment information. Probably within school divisions there is no consistency because the tone of parent-teacher contact is very often set by administration.

But I believe that if there is a greater understanding of the need and the desire of parents to have that kind of information, that the professional groups, those involved, and the elected officials of our school division are in the best position to come to some better understanding of the need for openness and also the utility of having a more open system. I think it is a good educational practice and I'm hopeful that as these groups work together to come to grips with the problems of assessment, generally , they'll come to that conclusion. I think they will. MRS. S.

CARSTAIRS: In terms of the religious rights of both parents and students within the Charter again, and Charter compliance, the Chris Ta it affair was, I think, an isolated event in terms of one child's reaction or a student's reaction to the need to listen to a prayer he chose not to listen to; but certainly we have many Jehovah 's Witness chil dren who move out of our classrooms and into the hallways while both pra yers and the singing of Oh Canada takes place.

I wonder why the Department of Education has not moved to providing school divisions throughout the province with a series of readings and prayers which would be multi-dimensional, in fact, that they would make reference to all religions and also read ings that would be applicable to agnostics and atheists, that school divisions could, in fact, use at their discretion in their divisions. HON. J. STORIE: I beli eve that area, that question, has been raised with the Manitoba Education Advisory Committee who has responsibility for dealing with the question of religious exercise.

I know that they have reviewed the issue and have, in essence, I bel ieve, attempted to come to grips with the problem in the way that the Member for River Heights has outlined. I'm not convinced at this point that that in itself would satisfy the strict terms in which some people would review the requirements under the Charter, that in fact, without going into all of the denomina tions and sex of each denomination, it might not comply .

I mean, recognizing that while there may be only 5 or 10 or 15 or whatever specific denomina tions, that there are so many varieties of each denomination and groups with any denomination that you may still be violating that principle. So I'm not sure that would resolve the issue. I guess that's what I'm saying. MRS. S.

CARSTAIRS: Finally, and still on the Charter, the rights of special needs students, and I want to get into this in much more detail when we come to actual funding for special needs studen ts; but is the department doing any kind of ev aluation and relationship to the rights of - for lack of a better word - ordinary students in terms of there not being special needs students? I think there is a general concern here that as more and more money must be provided for special needs students, what effect does that have on the remainder in the class who are by far the majority , and what rights 2070

Tuesday, 22 July, 1986 do they have under the Char ter, and is that being also looked at as the needs of the special needs childr en is being looked at? HON. J. STORIE: Why is she asking me th ese questions? MR. CHAIRMAN: Because that's what Estimates are all about. HON. J. STORIE: I wish I had an easy answer to that.

I guess anybody who has ever sat on a school division and has seen the escalation of costs with respect to special needs students and tried to come to grips, and my colleague from The Pas, who was the chairperson of The Pas-Kelsey School Division for a number of years, knows how difficult that issue is, because while parents have rights, and I think thos e righ ts need to be respected in terms of accessibility to the educational system, it's clear that the cost has to be of concern and there are, unfortunately, only so many dollars to go around.

All I can say is you raised a legitimate question and perhaps that too is an issue we're going to have to deal with. We're going to have to decide. I believe the Charter provides for reasonable limits, and perhaps it's going to be left to a school division, a province, to test the reasonable limit of what we are expected financially, never mind the other questions, financially to provide. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: A final question. I'd just like to make the point that it's not just cost involved here. lt is also the quality of education for each and every child in that room.

That's the issue that we must look at very careful ly. HON. J. STORIE: I acknowledged that. MR. CHAIRMAN: The time being 4:30, it is time for Private Memb ers' Hour. We will reconvene at 8:00 p.m. SUPPLY -HE ALTH MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee come to ord er. The Honourable Minister. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I have a number of answers that I took as notice and promised to give them later on during the debate of the Estimates. I have the answers to two of them now, and I wonder , with the concurrence of the members of the Opposition and Mr.

Chairman, I'd like to suggest that not to delay the work of this comm ittee, I would like to table the answer with you, Mr. Chairman, and give a copy to Hansard and a copy to the Opposition and accept it as read. The one is on the directorate, it's quite lengthy , some of the work we're doing, and the other one is on the out-of-province travel of Dr. MacDonald. So if there's any doubt about that, can I suggest that I send it to the member , I think that if people are too suspicious around here and if it meets with their approval; if not, I'l l read it in the record because I want it in the record also. 2071 MR.

CHAIRMAN: Is that agreed? The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: I take it that we're going to avoid a lengthy answer. it's simply going to appear in the Hansard as read. I'm getting a copy of it right away. HON. l. DESJA RDINS: Yes, right, sure. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is that agreed? (Agreed) HON. l. DESJARD INS: So this is a copy for the Clerk and a copy for Hansard. MR. CHAIRMAN: The documents will be tabled; it will appear in Hansard. The member will get a copy as agreed to by the committee. HON. l. DESJARDINS: Right. I'll give him a copy of these anyway. I've got a copy for Orchard, Bonnie and Mrs.

Carstairs. In response to your question regarding the out-of­ province travel of Dr. Sharon MacDonald, subsequent to her appointment, Dr. MacDonald has been out of province on the following occasions: September 1985, Dr. MacDonald travelled to Ottawa respecting the Federal Provincial Advisory Committee on Community Health on September 18, 19 and 20 for a total provincial cost of $16 4.20. No provision was made for air fare as it was billed dire ctly to the Federal Government. December 19 85, Dr.

MacDonald travelled to Ottawa, related to the Federal-Provincial Conference of Deputy Ministers of Health on December 17, 18 and 19 . The cost of this trip was $191. 75 for hotels, meals, etc., and $547.20 for air fare, with the total cost being $738.95. May 19 86, Dr. MacDonald was requir ed to travel to Hamilton for a two-day conference on May 1 and 2 related to the Canadian Perspective on Health Promotion and Aging. Costs related to this trip include $286.65 for air fare and $79.95 for the other costs, for a total of $366.60.

The purpose of this trip was to present a paper on behalf of the Province of Manitoba. June 19 86, Dr. MacDonald was required to attend the Canadian Public Health Association Annual Conference on June 16 -18 in Vancouver and the Federal-Provincial Advisory Committee on Community Health Meeting on June 19 and 20, also in Vancouver. The air fare for this trip was paid directly by the Federal Government. Costs for the CPHA meeting amounted to $338.46 and $223.78 for the Advisory Comm ittee meeting. To tal cost for the trip was $562.24. The total provincial cost for all trips was $1 ,83 1. 99.

Prior to her appointment as Assistant Deputy Minister, Community Health Services Division, Dr. MacDonald was em ployed as the Chief Medical Officer of Health. For the honourable member's information, the following out-of-province travel relates to Dr. MacDonald 's previous duties: June 19 85, Dr. MacDonald attended the Canadian Public Health Association Conference in St. John's on June 24, 25, 26 and 27. Hotel, meals, etc., totalled $373. 18, while the air fare added $601 for a total cost of $974.18.

Tuesday, 22 July, 1986 January 1985, Dr. MacDonald was required to travel to Ottawa respecting a Federal-Provincial Community Health and Health Promotional Advisory Comm ittee Meeting on January 16 and 17 . The air fare was paid dir ectly by the Federal Government, while hotel, meals, etc., cost $16 6.70. On September 12 and 13, Dr. MacDonald attended an earlier meeting of the Federal-Provincial Advisory Committee on Community Health and Health Promotion which I've just mentioned. Again the air fare was paid by the feds with hotel, meals, etc., adding $1 57.50. Dr.

MacDonald had no out-of-province travel in 19 83- 84. She was appointed to her position as Chief Medical Officer of Health on November 29, 1982. Our records for 19 82-83 are in storage. The total cost for trips for this position was $1 ,298.38. The total cost for all trips while working for the department was $3, 13 0.37. The Research and Planning Directorate, 1985-86: The Researc h and Planning Dir ectorate was established in 19 82 to consolida te research and planning for Manitoba Health and the Manitoba Health Services Commission.

The Directorate coordinates the planning of insured medical and institutional services funded through the Ma nitoba He alth Services Commission with public health, home care, mental health institutions, community mental health and other regional services provided by Manitoba Health. The Health Services Review Committee, formed in 1984 to provide the Minister of Health with information on a wide range of health topics, continued its investigations in 1985-86.

The Health Services Review Committee's terms of reference were: to ide nt ify major cost areas and explor e consolidation; to look for alternatives to in-patient services such as more ambulatory care; to review current bed allocation and utilization; to review criteria of hospital admissions in both urban and rural hospitals. The structur e of the He alth Services Review Committee was based on representation from a variety of health care interests.

These included 15 acknowledged experts from: The College of Physicians and Surgeons of Manitoba Manitoba Association of Registered Nurses Manitoba Health Manitoba Health Services Commission Manitoba Medical Association (rural and urban) Rural hospitals Faculty of Medicine, University of Manitoba Urban non-teaching hospitals Urban teaching hospitals The Health Services Review Com mittee assigned 15 sub-committees to specific investigations in areas selected according to urgency or because they consume an excessive number of hospital days and medical services.

The sub-committees reviewed the following areas: Administrative Im pacts, Cardio vascular, Community Health, Critical Care, Emergency Health Care, Elderly , Gastrointes tinal, In dian Health Services, Not-for- Admission Surgery, Obstetrics, Oncology , Out-Patient Medical Services, Pediatrics. Respiratory, and Te rminal Illn ess. On December 16, 19 85, the Minister of Health announced that the Health Services Review Comm ittee Report would be made available to the public through the Queen's Printer.

Copies were sent for comment to a number of health institutions, profess ional associations and health organizations. Responses from health professionals and the public were requested by June 30, 1986. In conjunction with the two teaching hospitals and the Manitoba Health Services Comm ission, the Research and Planning Directorate is defining the intensive care unit service population. This will provide information for the intensive care nursing manpower analysis being carried out by the two teaching hospitals.

The Medical Manpower Working Group, representing the Manitoba Medical Association, the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Manitoba, the Faculty of Medicine, University of Manitoba, and the Research and Planning Directorate, analyzed physician manpower data. Estima tes of the province's future physician man power req uirements were based on various scenarios of medical school enrolment and physician migration. The directorate attends manpower-related committee meetings at the interpr ovincial and federal-provincial levels.

Examples are: Federal-Pr ovincial Advisory Com mittee on Health and Human Resources; the Wor king Group in the National Physician Database. After several months' review, coordina ted by the di rectorate, the report of th e Mental Health Mana gement Inf ormation System Committee was comple ted in October 1985. Committee membership included representatives from both institutional and community-based mental health services who were asked to examine appropriate means for esta blishing a comprehensive, automated information system for all types of mental health services.

In federal-provincial relations, the directorate reviews and assigns provincial priority ratings to Manitoba submissions to the National Health Research Development Program. A member of the directorate serves on the Scientific Review Committee and the Committee Reviewing Provincial Priorities. The dir ectorate pr ovides consu ltation on the development of federal dental hygiene standards and on nursing standards to the World Health Organization, European region. The final report of the federally funded research project to evaluate the quality of nursing care in Manitoba was completed.

This was eo-sponsored by the directorate and the Manitoba Association of Registered Nurses. The directorate served as secretary to the Manitoba Nursing Review Committee, established by the Minister in January 1984, to examine the utilization, preparation and supply of the various categories of nursing personnel. Chaired by Justice J.F. O'Su lli van, the committee's report was submitted to the Minister of Health in April 1985. Assessment of sociodemographic and nursing acuity of all medical and psychiatric patients in the nine urban hospitals was conducted by nurse raters in November and December 1986.

These data will be compared to data obtained in 19 84. 2072

Tuesday, 22 July, 1986 Other directorate activities comple ted or in prog ress include: Development of an evaluation protocol for the Seven Oaks Psychogeriatric Program; Data col lection for the eva luation of the community-based management of Pregnancy­ Ind uced Hypertension Program; Review of the Manitoba Pharmacare Program to identify the major factors responsible for escalation of the program's costs; Development of a day hospital database for the evaluation of provincial day hospital activities; Offered residents from the Un iversity of Manitoba, Faculty of Medicine's Community Medicine Programs, the opportunity to rotate through the directorate for two-month periods, and assisted Univ ersity of Victoria Health Information science students to compl ete two four-month work practicums; Provided consultation for a study to assess the difference in treatment and outcome of elderly patients adm itted through emergency who were randomi zed to receive treatment in the geriatric units or internal medicine at St.

Bonif ace General Ho spital and the Health Sciences Centre; Prepared final report on the evaluation of the Maternity Early Discharge Program has been comple ted; Coordi nated a utilization review for one of the urban hospitals; Developed an interdepartmental submission to Social Resources Commit tee of Cabinet on residential care funding for the province; Provided a directorate representation on the Manitoba Health Research Council; Participated in an interprovincial study on the needs of organ transplantation; Appoi nted a directorate member to represent the Minister of Health on the Advisory Council of the Manitoba Nursing Research Institute; Appointed a member of the directorate to review grants for the St.

Boniface General Hospital Research Foundation; Published articles in two journals; Cond ucted reviews of relevant literature in key health care areas. MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm now calling Item No. 2.(h)

(1) Medical Equipment and Supplies: Salaries; 2.(h)

(2) Other Expenditures; 2.(h)

(3) External Agencies. The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr . Chairman, what external agencies are funded under this appropriation? HON. L. DESJARDINS: The external agencies of the Canadian Red Cross Society and the Society for Manitobans with Disabilities, Inc. MR. D. ORCHARD: I'm sorry, I was reading another paper . I missed that answer, Mr. Chairman. HON. L. DESJARDINS: The Canadian Red Cross Society and the Society for Manitobans with Disabilities, Inc. MR. D.

ORCHARD: In the latter gr ant, the Society for Manitobans with Disabilities, Inc., No. 1, what's the size of that particular funding to that organization and does the organization use that money for the provision of mobility aids to disabled in Manitoba? HON. L. DESJARDINS: The amount is 488.6 and it is for the Manitoba Wheelchair Service Program. it's kind of a contract or an agreement, the Wheelchair Program. MR. D. ORCHARD: So that basically, then, there's only $10, 000 to the Red Cross? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Right. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr .

Ch airman, the Other Ex penditur es, does that include the purcha se of the supplies, all of the various crutches and other medical supplies, oxygen concentrators, you name it, that are available to Manitobans by medical referral? Does that Other Expenditur es contain a capital component of a purchase of those supplies to keep inventories up to date? HON. L. DESJARDI NS: The Other Expenditur es are actually, as we mentioned, for home care equipment, manual wheelchairs, motorized wheelchairs, ostomy supplies, respiratory support systems, intrauterine contraceptive devices, medical