1986 Legislative Session: 4th Session, 33rd Parliament

HANSARD

The following electronic version is for informational purposes only.

The printed version remains the official version.

Official Report of

DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

(Hansard)

THURSDAY, JUNE 5, 1986

Afternoon Sitting

[ Page

8565 ]

CONTENTS

Consumer and Corporate Affairs Statutes Amendment Act, 1986 (Bill 35).

Hon. Mr. Veitch

Introduction and first reading –– 8565

Oral Questions

Government advertising. Mr. Hanson –– 8565

Liability insurance. Mr. Cocke –– 8565

Quality of ResWest accommodation. Mr. MacWilliam –– 8566

Provincial participation in free-trade negotiations. Mr. Williams ––

Municipal infrastructure program. Mr. Blencoe –– 8567

Committee of Supply: Ministry of Transportation and Highways estimates.

(Hon. A. Fraser)

On vote 72: minister's office –– 8567

Mr. D'Arcy

Mr. Rose

Mrs. Johnston

Mr. Cocke

Hon. Mr. Curtis

Mr. Stupich

Mr. MacWilliam

Mr. Davis

Mr. Blencoe

Mr. Williams

Health Improvement Appropriation Act (Bill 5). Committee stage ––

Mr. Stupich

Third reading

Education Excellence Appropriation Act (Bill 4). Committee stage ––

Mr. Stupich

Mr. Williams

Mrs. Dailly

Mr. Rose

Third reading

Tabling Documents –– 8590

THURSDAY, JUNE 5, 1986

The House met at 2:06 p.m.

HON. MR. CURTIS: Mr. Speaker, in the gallery today we have a

number of senior students from Claremont Senior Secondary School in the

Cordova Bay area of Saanich and the Islands. I wonder if the House

would welcome them.

MR. BLENCOE: Mr. Speaker, I'd like the House to welcome a

long-time resident of the city of Victoria, Mrs. Laura Jefkins. Would

the House make her welcome, please.

HON. MR. CURTIS: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of my colleague the

Minister of Municipal Affairs (Hon. Mr. Ritchie) and his many friends

on the floor of the House, I would like to introduce the mayor of

Nanaimo, Mr. Graeme Roberts, and Alderman Vicki Kuhl of the

municipality of Saanich.

HON. MR. BRUMMET: Mr. Speaker, as I think everyone is aware,

ongoing communications with B.C. Hydro are very important to me. Three

people who make that possible are in the gallery today: Sheilah

Henderson and Thom Thompson from B.C. Hydro, and Linda Babb, my

executive assistant. I'd like the House to welcome them.

Introduction of Bills

CONSUMER AND CORPORATE AFFAIRS

STATUTES AMENDMENT ACT, 1986

On behalf of Hon. Mr. Veitch, Hon. Mr. Gardom presented a message

from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Consumer and

Corporate Affairs Statutes Amendment Act, 1986.

HON. MR. GARDOM: Mr. Speaker, I would just like to inform all hon. members it's chock full of housekeeping goodies best addressed in committee.

Bill 35 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on

orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House

after today.

Oral Questions

GOVERNMENT ADVERTISING

MR. HANSON: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister of

Finance, in his capacity as a backup to the Provincial Secretary (Hon.

Mrs. McCarthy), but also because he is the minister in charge of the

public purse. It's been very hard on the public to endure the bills for

the advertising campaign carried out by the government. A number of

cabinet ministers are currently appearing in partnership-in-propaganda

ads on television. Also, one declared candidate is appearing on

television and may be losing votes as a result of it. My question is:

is the minister not concerned that these ads may give an unfair

advantage in the leadership race?

HON. MR. CURTIS: It seems to me that the question is so phrased as to

advance some hypotheses with which I don't necessarily agree.

MR. HANSON: On a supplementary, at least five members of

cabinet are featured in current taxpayer-financed propaganda ads. Will

the minister give the viewers of B.C. a break and pull all of these

political mugs off TV?

HON. MR. CURTIS: I now take that question as notice on behalf

of the Provincial Secretary, who I am sure will be delighted to provide

a full and complete answer to that member, notwithstanding the rhetoric

which preceded the actual question.

MR. HANSON: A new question. In view of the fact that a number

of others on the front bench may be involved in the campaign, would it

not be fair for the taxpayers and all of the people of the province, in

terms of their pocketbooks, to pull all of those ads?

HON. MR. CURTIS: I wonder where the opposition front bench is? I see seven or eight missing.

Interjections.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please.

LIABILITY INSURANCE

MR. COCKE: On behalf of the opposition front bench, I would

like to direct a question to the Minister of Human Resources and of

Health, particularly because he's the minister responsible for ICBC.

The minister is aware of the impossible situation facing many small

businesses because of what amounts to a strike in the general liability

insurance industry. Since I raised the question with the minister a few

days ago, the B.C. Safety Council has been forced to close its

motorcycle driving school for want of liability insurance. Has the

minister decided to instruct ICBC to re-enter the field of liability

general insurance?

HON. MR. NIELSEN: The problem facing a number of

organizations, particularly those engaged in driving instruction, with

respect to the apparent inability to purchase general liability

insurance has been reviewed in some detail by people within ICBC, and

others. More questions have been asked of the insurance industry

generally to try to determine precisely what this problem is; whether

it is part of the overall problem with liability insurance or whether

it is something specific to these schools and instruction. ICBC, as I

understand it, is not in a position to offer this type of insurance. My

understanding as well is that I would not be in a position to instruct

them to offer this type of insurance, because it appears that that

would be a breach of an understanding or a contract.

The question is being examined by some representatives within the

insurance industry, and I have asked for a determination as to

precisely what difficulties these instructional schools are having in

obtaining the insurance. It seems that until recently this type of

insurance was available to these companies. That insurance is now

simply not available to them; whether it is because of the overall

problem respecting liability insurance, or something peculiar to that

type of service, has not been identified precisely to me. We have asked

for further information.

Specifically to the member, I do not believe ICBC could be instructed to offer this type of insurance. I'm led to believe

[ Page 8566 ]

that it would be contrary to the terms and

conditions of the contract when they sold the general insurance to

Northern Shield. But we're still reviewing the matter, and I will bring

as much information as I can find out.

MR. COCKE: Mr. Speaker, if someone is in breach of contract,

it would strike me that the breach is on the other side; the breach is

in terms of those who are offering insurance and not selling it. Can

the minister assure the House that there is no way around a contract

that has been breached by the insurance industry, not ICBC?

HON. MR. NIELSEN: Mr. Speaker, I have no difficulty in again

asking the officials within ICBC if they feel there has been a breach

in that contract. The information I've received so far is that ICBC

would not be in a position to offer that type of insurance, because

they would be in breach — quite a different situation, the member

suggests, to examine the role of the industry overall. I'm not sure

whether that would be a breach of any contract, but I'll have the legal

people examine that particular idea.

[2:15]

MR. COCKE: Well, thank you. I sure hope they look at it. If

it's unavailable, surely ICBC can offer it. But it goes beyond this. It

goes to the municipalities who have been gouged. It goes to school

districts who have been gouged. It's right across the province, Mr.

Speaker, and it strikes me that we should make a very strong move. Will

the minister make a strong move toward providing liability insurance

for every small business, for every municipality, for every school

district? What a market!

Interjection.

MR. COCKE: They would want it. Through ICBC, what on opportunity.

HON. MR. NIELSEN: Mr. Speaker, I'll take that question as notice and get more details and information and respond later.

QUALITY OF RESWEST ACCOMMODATION

MR. MacWILLIAM: My question is to the Minister of Tourism. In

reference to my question back on April 22 of this year, the minister

gave his commitment that any accommodation booked through ResWest "must

measure up to certain standards." Since then there have been a number

of embarrassing incidents. At least one hotel has now been embargoed

after numerous foreign visitors referred to it found that the living

conditions were nothing short of appalling. I wonder if the minister

would advise why he failed to heed the warnings and why his commitment

to this House was in fact not honoured.

HON. MR. RICHMOND: The last part of that question is totally

incorrect. I take umbrage with the remark about not honouring a

commitment to this House. In fact, I think it borders on the verge of

being unparliamentary. However, the accommodation sector in Vancouver

has been well looked after. Yes, there has been the odd incident where

accommodation has not measured up to standard and we have moved very

quickly to rectify that. The latest case happened just the other day

when one of the hotels, namely the Patricia, was singled out as not

being up to the standard that we wanted and it was quickly removed from

the reservation system.

MR. MacWILLIAM: Supplemental to that question, the minister

was made aware of this on April 22. He was also made aware of the

situation on April 29. Since that time an embarrassing incident has

occurred, an incident which is internationally embarrassing. Why did

the minister fail to investigate this when it was first brought to the

House at that time?

HON. MR. RICHMOND: Perhaps, if the member would point out the

specific incidents on those two dates to which he refers.... I don't

happen to recall which properties he is speaking of. So if he would

like to elucidate and name the properties, then maybe I could respond.

MR. MacWILLIAM: Well, I think the member knows quite well which incidents I am talking about.

The fact is that the result of the minister's failure to act in this

matter is that the British Columbia travel industry has been

embarrassed nationally and, I might add, internationally by unfortunate

incidents — not just the few that have been covered in the press but

many others as well. I wonder what type of apology the minister has

decided to tender to the people of the province and to this House for

his failure to act when he was first notified of the problem.

HON. MR. RICHMOND: Mr. Speaker, all I can say in response to

that is that ResWest alone is booking some 1,200 rooms per day, and the

room-nights to date have numbered in the millions. The number of

"embarrassing incidents" that the member speaks of can be counted on

the fingers of one hand. I think that's not a bad track record for this

province.

PROVINCIAL PARTICIPATION

IN FREE-TRADE NEGOTIATIONS

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Forests,

yesterday a delegation including the Canadian ambassador and

representatives of three political parties from Parliament met with the

U.S. Secretary of Commerce. Could the minister advise whether

provincial representatives from this Legislature were invited to

participate?

HON. MR. HEINRICH: Mr. Speaker, the province was not invited.

I don't believe any of the provinces were invited to attend with the

ambassador. There were representatives from three political parties on

a national basis — one from the Liberals, one from the Conservatives

and one from the New Democrats.

Attending from the province of British Columbia was a gentleman by

the name of Mr. Grimmer, and I can advise the House that a report was

filed with us yesterday morning as to what transpired at the meeting.

My apologies. Anyway, most of that has been reported in the press.

MR. WILLIAMS: Could the minister advise the House who the

province's legal counsel is in Washington, D.C., with respect to the

softwood countervail?

HON. MR. HEINRICH: The law firm of Arnold and Porter is the firm which has been retained by the Canadian

[ Page 8567 ]

Forest Industries Council. That particular council

represents all members of the forest industry across the country. I

also believe a Mr. Herb Fierst is providing information and assisting

the law firm which is taking the leading role, acting on behalf of the

Canadian forest industry.

MUNICIPAL INFRASTRUCTURE PROGRAM

MR. BLENCOE: I have a question for the Minister of Municipal

Affairs. The leaders of Canada's municipalities are getting tired of

waiting for a federal commitment of funds to a municipal infrastructure

program: that's according to the mayor of Edmonton. One of the reasons

for that delay is that British Columbia, out of all provinces, has

refused to participate in rebuilding municipalities in the province of

British Columbia. Has the minister reviewed his decision not to share

costs with other levels of government?

HON. MR. RITCHIE: There is no need for this minister to

review the position taken. The position taken by the minister has been

supported generally by the members of the UBCM, and that is that this

is no time to be going to the federal government looking for funds for

infrastructure which, no doubt, would be at the cost of education and

health.

Now I'd like to point out to the member and to the House that indeed

the reason why the infrastructure, and particularly the sewer and water

portion of the infrastructure in this province, is in pretty good shape

is because we have had a formula whereby the income of the province has

been shared with all municipalities in providing this service. There is

in excess of $100 million per year going into that same program.

In addition to that, we just recently reviewed the condition of our

infrastructure provincially, and noted that indeed the road portion had

slipped somewhat behind that of sewer and water. As a result of that

finding, we have doubled the funding into that part of the

infrastructure program at the municipal level.

HON. MR. GARDOM: Before calling orders of the day, might I have leave for an introduction?

Leave granted.

HON. MR. GARDOM: I'm sure every member in the House would

like to join with me in wishing great success and congratulations on

the eighty-fifth birthday today of Mr. Bruce Hutchison, one of Canada's

most renowned editorialists and journalists. The very happiest of

birthdays to you.

Orders of the Day

The House in Committee of Supply; Mr. Strachan in the chair.

ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF

TRANSPORTATION AND HIGHWAYS

(continued)

On vote 72: minister's office, $226,849.

MR. D'ARCY: This morning during debate on this particular

vote members on both sides of the House got up to ask for highway

improvements, some of them involving fourlaning of various highways. I

want to make a plea, as I usually do in these estimates, that the Trail

end of Highway 22, known as the west Trail approach, be completed as

soon as possible. Mr. Chairman, this highway doesn't even have two

usable lanes. In fact, on the hairpin comers, if an individual is

trying to get a large vehicle down or up the hill, they don't even have

one usable lane and have to pass through an industrial complex because

they can't negotiate the regular highway.

I want to remind the minister that this particular highway was not

even built by the Ministry of Highways or by Public Works. It was built

by private interests way back in the 1920s and has since come into use

as a public road. It's at the southern end of a modem 60-mile-an-hour

highway which was rebuilt by various governments in the '60s and '70s.

There's this one

section which is one-third complete and I would ask

the minister to make a commitment to the taxpaying public in my area,

who have been very patient on this particular project. I want to note

that since the original estimates were done, the price has gone down,

in spite of the fact that the federal government has reneged on their

$1 million commitment to assist with the removal of railway crossings.

But I'd like to point out, Mr. Chairman, that it's not the fault of the

people in my riding that the federal government changed its policy in

this regard, nor is it the fault of the people in my riding, the

taxpayers there, that the provincial government has dragged its heels

on this project.

Mr. Chairman, I know every member can get up in this House and have

a pet highways project which has been of long standing. But I want to

point out to the House here that this was something that my

predecessor, Don Brothers, wanted Phil Gaglardi to do and wanted Wes

Black to do, and since I've been in office, I tried to get Bob Strachan

to do, and after that the member for Prince Rupert (Mr. Lea) when he

was Minister of Highways, and more recently, Mr. Minister, yourself. So

this is a project which has been due and pending and promised by

various political parties and candidates over a period of at least five

elections that I know of, and through, I think, about five different

Highways ministers. So we think we're overdue. We know we're overdue.

I would also like to point out that there's a major safety problem

here because of these hairpins and the steepness of the grades. The old

C.W. McCall record about Wolf Creek Pass may have been put out as a

comedy, but we have had similar incidents that weren't so funny,

particularly involving truck drivers and rigs that were not from B.C.

or from our area. It seems as though people from outside the area are

not aware and overestimate their own capabilities as drivers and the

capability of their vehicles. On these particular very steep grades and

hairpin comers that I would like to see the ministry improve, we have a

situation where utility lines involving acids, steam and other

chemicals are very vulnerable to a runaway vehicle. I would hope that

the minister would move very fast to issue a second contract on this

project.

[2:30]

I note that the city of Trail, due to a property acquisition in

1979-80, has lost a considerable amount annually of tax revenue, and

that the western entrance to the city of Trail is somewhat blighted — I

use the word kindly when I say "somewhat" — by the property clearing,

the clearing of perfectly functioning houses and commercial buildings,

which the Ministry of Highways did for a project which has not

proceeded. I do want to express our appreciation that at

[ Page 8568 ]

least in this past year the local Highways district

office has done a fair amount of levelling; I won't call it

"beautification, " but they have certainly improved the appearance of

that rather monstrous-looking urban-renewal project which just barely

got off the ground and has never been completed. I would hope that the

minister would move very quickly there.

I want to also ask the minister to, if he can, get us a contract to

repaint the Trail bridge. It may sound like a trivial item, but if I

had some photographs here to show the minister, he could have a look at

the paint job on that bridge. Not only is it incredibly unsightly, but

I am concerned that there's going to be structural damage to that

particular bridge if it's not repainted quickly. I want to remind the

minister that it's not just the regular environmental or atmospheric

fallout that that bridge is vulnerable to, but it happens to be in the

lee of the lead stack, so that the industrial emissions that interact

with the steel and the paint on that bridge are far in excess of what

you would normally find in other parts of the province. Even though it

was repainted in the mid- I 970s, it is, I would say, three or four

years overdue for painting. It's getting to the point where structural

damage will indeed be done if something isn't done to refinish the

paint on the bridge.

I want to note that one thing we have appreciated in my constituency

— it's the Rossland highways district — is that there have been a

number of right-turn lanes completed in the past year, right-turn lanes

that were needed from both a public convenience and a safety point of

view for many years. We need paving on them; they're pretty messy.

Hopefully a contract will go out this summer, either under minor

betterments or a capital contract, to pave those.

What we have a real major problem with, though, Mr. Chairman, is

that we need some left-turn lanes, particularly at the northern end of

Highway 22 just before it gets to the Kinnaird interchange. In that

particular area, I want to point out to the House that in the early

seventies the ministry spent a considerable amount of money doing

design and survey work for a curve and gutter project which would have

widened the road. I believe even some right-of-way acquisition was

done. That project has never gone ahead, but in recent years a

recreational complex has been constructed at the extreme northern end

of Highway 22 just before it gets to the interchange in the middle of

Castlegar. There also has been a major hotel and watering-hole

constructed, which is very popular. Both of these require left-hand

turns off the main highway. Without left-turn lanes here, we have not

only a major inconvenience to the publicly we also have a major safety

problem. We're happy with the right-turn lanes that have been installed

near Selkirk College Road near the Castlegar airport, and with the exit

lanes onto Highway 22 off Highway 3, but we certainly need some

left-turn lanes installed very quickly.

I want to ask the minister if he could tell us what the progress is

of major reconstruction on Pass Creek Road. This particular road has a

lot of private vehicle traffic, a lot of truck traffic, a lot of school

children transported in school buses. It's very narrow, very winding.

The hills are steep, they're blind, and the paving is in horrible

condition. The ministry has had a contract project ready for some time.

There were some difficulties with the Raspberry-Robson water district,

which I understand are pretty well resolved at this point. Whether he

does this through his ministry directly in Victoria or through region,

I would urge the minister to proceed very quickly in calling a contract

to reconstruct Pass Creek Road.

I want to raise the question of maintenance on the three major

gravel highways in my constituency. The minister said this morning — I

hope I remember his remarks accurately — that somewhere in the

neighbourhood of 600 kilometres of gravel roads are Highways

responsibility. I don't have nearly that many, but I do have in the

Rossland-Trail constituency the Syringa Creek to Deer Park road, the

Sheep Creek road 14 miles west from Rossland and Pend-d'Oreille Road

between Seven Mile Dam and Nelway Customs. All of these are what I

would call well-graded gravel roads in terms of construction, but

they're incredibly dusty and washboardy in summer and pot-holed in

winter in the wet season.

I would hope the minister could institute a better maintenance

program, even a program of grader-mixed paving on these particular

roads. I don't think any of them, at this point at least, need major

grade improvements, but they certainly could use a surfacing. I don't

think any of them have significant truck traffic, so it would be a

tremendous convenience to the public if some work could be done. The

people out in the Sheep Creek valley have been waiting for a paving job

on that road since the 1920s, so I think they're a little bit overdue.

Straying from highways work for just a second, Mr. Chairman, this

summer is going to see the national little league championships in

Trail — I've got to get this out fast before the Chairman asks what

relevance this has. The group putting it on in Trail made a request to

the minister some time ago for some guard-rail for their parking lots.

I haven't seen the approval, but they say they have an approval

directly from the minister for the local Highways yard to supply them

with a certain length of concrete guard-rail for this national

tournament. But the guard-rail hasn't been delivered, and when I

contacted our region and district office I was told they could have it

but there would be the regular charge of so much per foot. I would like

the minister to clarify this for me and for them. Either the minister

and/or the ministry is going to make this guard-rail available at no

cost or there is going to be a charge for it, but we would certainly

like to know what the answer is on that one.

I'd like the minister hopefully to approve a repaving contract for

this summer. According to not only a lay observation by the public but

also Highways own paving engineers, parts of 3A and 3B are in great

need of resurfacing. There are cracks that are breaking up, and if

these aren't resurfaced soon, I think the preventive maintenance costs

are going to go up significantly in the next few years. Parts of the

Rossland hill on 3B and parts of the Fruitvale to Meadows highway which

were not resurfaced last year are in special need of attention.

I want to put in a plea, in case the minister or any of his advisers

have any opposite thoughts, to make sure there are no further thoughts

about closing down the Castlegar ferry. We go through a paranoia and

fear every now and then in my area. I want to remind the minister that

next to the Albion–Fort Langley ferry, this is perhaps the busiest

ferry in the province. Certainly it's the busiest of the freshwater

ferries, next to the Albion–Fort Langley. Even though the ministry

reduced the hours a few years ago, nonetheless the occupancy and usage

rate of that particular ferry is extremely high.

I want to make a brief comment on maintenance, and suggest to the

minister that winter and summer maintenance in my riding has been

extremely good. We thank the ministry for that. In a way, I hesitate to

say that. I like to compliment the minister and his ministry; on the

other hand, I don't want

[ Page 8569 ]

him thinking things are so good that he can afford

to chop us back at all. One thing we would like, though, from a safety

point of view, is a paint crew a little earlier in the summer. When you

have a lot of ploughing and sanding during the winter months — I hope

the minister knows this in his constituency — you obliterate a lot of

white lines and yellow lines. We certainly could use a paint crew a

little earlier in the spring, instead of waiting till June to see one.

Mr. Chairman, I'm going to ask for an intervening speaker here. I

think the member for Port Moody could possibly ask a question or two

about the weather. We'll see whether he'll cooperate in that regard.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The member for Coquitlam-Moody — on the weather.

MR. ROSE: Mr. Chairman, I've never had a more eloquent

introduction, nor a more surprising one. Nevertheless, like most

politicians I'm always pregnant with at least three speeches, so I'll

drag out my annual speech to the Minister of Highways. We usually touch

on two or three topics.

When is he going to do something about the bottleneck in Port Moody

because of all the traffic? That's number one. What are we going to do

for the good burghers of Belcarra and their problems because they

happen to sit right on the edge of a GVRD park? And the other one is,

what are we going to do to speed up the zoning approvals associated

with the Highways department? Those are my three topics.

I also have some supportive ones involving commuter rail and the

like and the minister's efforts to assist as a cabinet minister in

convincing the transit authority, along with the minister, the

Provincial Secretary, to assist in getting a lot of cars off the

highway which are clogging Port Moody daily upwards in the thousands.

Maybe we could seek his cooperation to convince his deskmate over there

to consider the use of commuter rail not strictly on the basis of its

economic benefit, but on the fact that it would cut highway costs and

reduce the clogging of traffic.

I think that that is my introduction, and I will defer again to my

hon. colleague from Rossland-Trail. Then perhaps some of the minister's

people, his officials, might be able to have some answers ready on

those topics which I have just raised.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The last two points were out of order with respect to transit.

MR. D'ARCY: Signing, Mr. Minister. I know this is possibly an

issue which every minister has wrestled with, and I know that every

chamber of commerce and every municipal council thinks that they are

being unfairly treated by the method of signing, and the distance and

information signs on the highways. However, I would like to see a more

consistent and defensible policy.

We used to think in the southern interior that every sign you saw

told you.... It didn't matter where you were in the southern interior:

every road sign you saw told you how far you were either from Nelson or

from Vernon. I have nothing against Nelson or Vernon, but there are a

few other communities in southern British Columbia that people would

like to know they're on the road to occasionally. So I would like a

consistent and defensible policy of signing.

I also would like to see more service-describing signs. When you are

outside of British Columbia in the western states or in the Prairies,

it doesn't matter what you are coming to: whether it is a very small

town or a large city, there is a board there telling you whether you

can find sleeping accommodation, gasoline, groceries, bars, hardware

stores and so on. In British Columbia we need more of these types of

international signs, letting people know as they approach a community

or a cutoff for a community what indeed is available — waterslides,

campgrounds or whatever. That is not just in my region, the West

Kootenay, but throughout the province. So let's have a consistent

distance and signing policy regarding places, and let's have a better

policy for locating service-describing signs.

I want to talk briefly about the access of people from my riding and

the southern interior in general to the Coquihalla Highway. The

minister may want to get up and say: "Well, you guys can use the

Hope-Princeton." Well, we can, but people from the southern interior

are on the hook as taxpayers for that magnificent creation, the

Coquihalla Highway, and we like to access it every now and then. If you

want to access it from the southern interior, you have to go all the

way up to Merritt and then turn back on yourself once you get on the

Coquihalla, We would like a better cutoff route from the Aspen Grove

area, or south of that on Highway 5, west to the Brookmere area on the

Coquihalla, in order.... By the way, we would still get on the highway

before the toll booth, if that is what the minister is worried about.

[2:45]

But I would suggest that the people from the extreme South Okanagan,

the West Kootenay, the Boundary-Similkameen area and the East Kootenay

— indeed, any traffic up to the Crowsnest Pass and beyond — may wish to

use the Coquihalla Highway rather than the Hope-Princeton. Right now

the Coquihalla is 39 miles further. The minister will have to forgive

me if that is not in kilometres, because I still think in miles. It is

39 miles further than using the Hope-Princeton, and it doesn't need to

be that much further. Certainly the minister this morning quoted some

figures on revenue from tolls on the Coquihalla. I would suggest that

if it were more accessible to people from the southern interior part of

the province, who, I repeat, are equally responsible as taxpayers for

this highway, then he might find that the traffic levels increase even

more than what they are today.

Mr. Chairman, I want to talk about safety inspections for commercial

vehicles. I know there was some discussion this morning, and I welcome

the inspection program and the tougher inspections that the minister

has instituted. But one of the complaints I have had, both from

trucking operators and from operators of passenger vehicles, is that

when a vehicle is flunked.... And the ones who have talked to me say

they have been flunked for what sound to be pretty minor things. I

don't say there is anything wrong with that. After the owner repairs

the complaint, then they have a very difficult time finding an

inspector or scheduling time with an inspector to get that vehicle back

on the road again. The minister probably knows from his time in the

trucking industry that it's a very competitive business and you can't

afford to have a vehicle off the road. I'm not suggesting that some

vehicles shouldn't have been pulled off the road or given repair slips.

What I am saying is that when the owner-operator moves very quickly to

rectify whatever the inspector requires, then there should be a quick

approval process so that he can get that vehicle back on the road,

whether it be a passenger-carrying or a freight-carrying vehicle.

[ Page 8570 ]

Finally, I would like to make a point here again on behalf of my

constituents for the road improvement projects that I mentioned here,

which are way overdue. People in my area, every bit as much as the

minister's constituents and people throughout the interior, pay taxes

into general revenue for all of the road improvements: for the

Coquihalla, the Annacis crossing, for the entire highway system. Yet

capital improvements of any significance have been few and far between

in recent years. I hope the minister will take that into account, now

that some of the megaprojects are completed or near completed, and note

that there are tax-paying citizens who work very hard and contribute a

great deal of money to the revenues of this province.

HON. A. FRASER: The member for Rossland-Trail asked a lot of questions, and I'll try to answer some of them.

First on the famous Smelter Hill. This is a 2.4 revision of Route

22, the Castlegar-Trail highway, to replace the Smelter Hill

section

which bisects the Cominco plant. As the member knows, the first phase,

consisting of some earth-moving, a right-of-way underpass and a

pipeline underpass, has been completed. The next phase will include the

revision of the Trail Creek culvert and the moving of some Cominco

facilities. The third phase includes the completion of the grade

construction and paving. We haven't anything in the program this year

to get on with that, but that's where it's at.

On the painting of the bridge, we are planning on getting money to paint the bridge again in 1987.

On the fight-turn and left-turn lanes I believe you made

observations about, it entails paving and construction. The hold-up

there is that a right-of-way is needed. We're doing what can be done,

but we don't have a major paving contract at this time.

The guardrail. To clear that up, Mr. Member, the ministry has a

policy on surplus guardrail, and the cost is $4 a foot for local

governments and public agencies. The actual cost of the guardrail, for

your information, is $10 a foot. Maybe that clarifies to some degree

your question on that.

On Pass Creek Road, we've got problems there with a waterline

relocation. Highways is paying for a study for the local water

authority to determine requirements to protect and relocate the

waterline.

You mentioned the Castlegar-Robson ferry. There's no intention to do

anything other than what we're doing with the ferry; in other words, it

will continue its operation and be maintained at its present standard.

I got enough hue and cry about it when we suggested taking it out in

I'm happy that you appreciate the winter and summer maintenance, and

I think that generally speaking that applies all over the province,

that our people and crews do a real good job. It is particularly

emphasized in the winter months; they do a good job, they are well

organized, they work around the clock, and we should be all thankful

for that. We have no intention, I might say, of cutting back on that.

As a matter of fact, each year our maintenance costs go up, and we

don't have any trouble with the Treasury Board agreeing to increased

costs for the maintenance side of the ministry.

I agree with you, Mr. Chairman, being from the interior. I'd like to

see the paint crews out earlier, but there are some problems there

operational-wise. There is a system in place. We get them started in

the lower mainland where they have the moderate weather conditions and

work them north to cover the whole province. Maybe they could start a

little earlier, but not very much. As an example, this year the

inclement weather we've had I think has held them back. We also have

some operational problems where commercial traffic wants to keep

running through the wet paint. We've even had to ask for police help on

that, but generally they do a good job.

I think the other thing this year that won't happen again is that

they're extremely busy doing all the painting on the Coquihalla, a

brand-new piece of road added to their duties. You really can't start

much earlier than about March, even on the lower mainland, and there

are some big problems to get around.

Signing came up this morning. We are improving our signing, but in

my opinion it's still not enough. We have entered into an agreement

with the Ministry of Tourism on a joint basis, and between Tourism and

ourselves get community signs put up. Some communities are taking

advantage of that. Again, the Ministry of Tourism provides the fluff

and we provide the money, which is usually the case in Highways. With

any ministry we work with, we end up paying the bill. By that, I mean

the access, egress and the paving of the pull-off, and so on and so

forth. We're glad to do that and have done that, or are stepping that

up.

I'm not sure that that was what you're getting at, but that is an

increase in signing activity that we started a little bit on last year

and stepping up this year. As I told the people in communities in my

riding, the fastest way is pull everybody together and then we will

cooperate, tell them where we will allow a pull-out, and we'll even put

the sign up for them. Believe it or not, we have to do that in some

cases. We also have the Ministry of Tourism tied into it now.

You asked a question about commercial inspections. As you know,

that's new, but I gather that when they do get a ticket, then they

can't find an inspector to get back on the road. I say to the member,

to the committee, that I think we've overcome that; they go back to the

shop and they can get clearance from the shop where they had the

repairs done. They don't have to, in other words, find an inspector in

the certified shop. We don't want to detain them either, but that would

speed up the process.

Now to Port Moody, Coquitlam-Moody. The Port Moody bypass is a major item in the....

Interjection.

HON. A. FRASER: Sure, okay.

MRS. JOHNSTON: Well, it won't be necessary for the minister

to use his voice in response to my statements, but I think the point

has been made by several previous speakers with regard to signs,

particularly highway signs, in the various communities. We're faced

with the same type of problem in the municipality of Surrey. It appears

that the Highways ministry staff, the bureaucrats in charge of signs in

the various communities, particularly in my community, do little if

anything to pay attention to the request from the local mayor and

council, or the local chamber of commerce. Really, that's where the

input should be coming from, not from the staff sitting behind the

desks and really not operating day to day within the community.

I would like to ask the minister if he would personally sit down and

have a discussion with the manager of our local chamber of commerce in

Surrey, Mrs. Dianne Remple, and go over the concerns they have with

regard to signs in the municipality. There really is something lacking

in the type of

[ Page 8571 ]

signs that we have on the highways, and it's of

great concern to the manager of the chamber and the businesses in our

community. But that really is the only concern that I care to express

at this time.

[3:00]

I would like to throw out some bouquets. Some time ago I commented

on the concern expressed to me by one of my constituents, and certainly

witnessed by me, with regard to the quality of the food served us on

the ferries. In the last couple of weeks I've had great compliments

paid regarding the buffet service currently instituted. I think it's

really a feather in the minister's hat, because something has been

done. As well, the ferries have obviously been spruced up thank

goodness, in time for our Expo tourists.

As one of the MLAs for the constituency of Surrey, I would like to

commend the minister for the work that was done on the Pacific Highway,

No. 10, and the work that is being done in the area of the Pattullo

Bridge. There was a great deal of work required in our community, and

I'm very pleased to see that some of it is being attended to. There's

no argument with regard to the need. We have two major freeways going

through the constituency. Certainly the traffic is very heavy at all

times, and particularly in the areas that have been addressed by the

minister.

With those very few comments, I would just like to leave him with

the request that he personally meet with the chamber of commerce, to

listen to their concerns; and possibly it can be used as an example for

other community concerns to be addressed as well.

[Mr. Ree in the chair.]

HON. A. FRASER: I want to thank the first member for Surrey

for her kind remarks. I share with the committee that, as that member

knows and most members know, I meet as many people as possible. But I

get very nervous when I deal with the elected council of the area and

then the chamber of commerce comes along with a different opinion.

MR. ROSE: They're not elected.

HON. A. FRASER: That's correct. Maybe I shouldn't get

nervous, and listen to both sides of the coin. When I was out there

myself I was on both sides of that chamber of commerce, as well as

council. In the communities, oftentimes, they sure have different

opinions about what should happen. The only thing that makes me

nervous: they want me to be the referee. But I'll meet with the chamber

of commerce.

Your kind remarks about the work and that.... I guess you were here

this morning. Hopefully before the end of the summer we'll have more

help for the south side of the river, with the Annacis bridge. I think

that's going to be a big help to everybody south of the Fraser River.

MR. COCKE: Mr. Chairman, I can't imagine that minister

getting nervous about anything. He and I were both elected at the same

time, 17 years ago. I've been waiting for some sign of nervousness, and

I haven't seen any. He's just Mr. Cool.

Interjection.

MR. COCKE: I don't know. I wouldn't want to see him in

Treasury Board, because then he'd be dealing with the Minister of

Finance, and that would even make me nervous.

Mr. Chairman, I have a couple of things I'd like to say to the

minister. I still think that we're in for a bit of a disaster in

Westminster in terms of that Annacis bridge. If the bridge had maybe

gone all the way, or something, and there were ways of diverting

traffic.... I'm not sure we're going to be able to handle all that

traffic when it gets into town. Queensborough has been quite severely

affected. One of the unfortunate things about a situation like that is

the disaster that occurs to some of the small businesses along the way.

There's one chap with a service station — who incidentally tries very

desperately to keep his price for diesel down at a reasonable rate,

because there are a lot of truckers go by — and all that traffic is

going to be diverted and there's no access near his particular service

station. There are two or three in that kind of category, but he's the

one I know best, because I've been in there on a number of occasions. I

went to the Highways office and got the maps, and it strikes me that he

is going to have a darn tough time raising the $3,000 a month that is

his rent. And that's it. He's in jeopardy in terms of his business life.

Beyond that, I'm still not at all happy that the 20th Street hill is

going to be a major thoroughfare off that freeway. I would imagine that

Burnaby residents are also just a little bit nervous, because it's

going to funnel a lot of traffic through there. I know that you've done

the best you can in terms of diversion on Marine Way and the major new

connector in Richmond — when and if it gets finished — but in any event I think that we're in for some tough times.

I've often said in the House, and I've said it with a lot more

vigour than I'm going to say it today, that we are thrice-cursed in

Westminster. We have the Port Mann Bridge on one side of us, we've got

the Pattullo Bridge right in the middle, and how we plugged up the west

end of Westminster! That poor little six-square-mile town is the artery

for the whole lower mainland. Just to give the minister an idea, my MLA

office is on 12th Street. That's the extension of Kingsway. I live at

5th Avenue and 1st Street, by Queens Park, and unless I go up and down

alleys, oftentimes it will take me half an hour or more to get home at

the height of traffic because there's a little bit of a jam on the

Pattullo or anywhere else and traffic then starts wending its way

around, up and down alleys, side streets and everywhere else, and so it

is very tough on our town.

The one thing I want to see as long as I have any breath in my body

is that New Westminster remain a functional city on its own and not

become a part of the bedroom of Vancouver. Vancouver is already over

endowed with everything in terms of business, commercial development,

to the extent that any further great development there is to their

detriment. So let's hope that we're able to work it out so that

Westminster can maintain its identity and its integrity. It is a

first-class place and a great place to live, with the exception, of

course, of some of the problems that have been given us.

Just on the side, I'd like to tell the minister that after dealing

with the Highways department for almost four years and after hearing

what they wanted from me for our property at the lake, which was to

take enough of it so that I'd have very little left except a wee bit of

a ribbon, what we decided to do was give it to our children. Thankfully

the guy in Ottawa decided to relieve us of capital gains, so now the

kids have the property, and I hope that they never come to you and ask

for any kind of subdivision, because the worse thing people can

[ Page 8572 ]

do in this world is go to Highways and ask for a subdivision. The minute you ask for a subdivision....

AN HON. MEMBER: Why?

MR. COCKE: They told me they were going to build a highway

along the side of that lake. It's a winding trail and anybody who's

going to build a highway there has got holes in their head. But anyway,

aside from that, thanks a lot for not very much.

I would like to say something about the debate that was going on in

here this morning. You were talking to the member for Burnaby North

(Mrs. Dailly). I agree with her totally. I think the Minister of

Highways is suffering a bit of an eye problem. I would recommend an

ophthalmologist. If you can't see the wrecks that are driving on the

road today.... And I'm not talking about commercial trucks or taxis;

that goes without saying. They should be all checked, they should be

properly maintained, and they should not go on the road if they're in

any kind of dangerous condition. You've told us in your reports that

you've caught more than half on those spot checks that they're doing up

in the mountains. More than half of them had to be brought up to

standard. But I'll tell you something: private cars and trucks are

exactly the same.

Drive around at night. The number of cars with one headlight, which

in the old days used to be caught at the inspection station.... People

driving around without mufflers.... You know, there are people driving

cars in the city of Vancouver, New Westminster, the lower mainland and

elsewhere in the province that are so smokey that were they to drive in

Los Angeles, they'd be thrown in jail for the rest of their life for

adding to the smog.

We have a bunch of wrecks on the road, through you, Mr. Chairman, to

the minister. I told the minister last year about a car that was next

door to our house that these kids bought, and that car was brought in

so that he could take the motor or something out of it and junk it. But

it should have been junked months before. There was a piece of sheet

tin holding up the seat that the kid was driving on. Imagine — one good

little bounce, and he would have been dragging right along the ground.

That is the kind of stuff we've got out on the road. Until the day when

the minister stands up in this House and says, "We are going to again

have motor vehicle inspection in this province, " we are in jeopardy.

I would also like to ask the minister, for heaven's sake, as he is

the minister in charge of the motor vehicle branch, to talk to the

Minister of Health (Hon. Mr. Nielsen), who is the ICBC rep from the

government, and tell him to get us back into the liability insurance.

It is absolutely ridiculous that people training the drivers who go to

your branch to get their licence can't have any training by virtue of

the fact that people offering the training can't offer it by virtue of

the fact that they can't get liability insurance. We've got to do

something in this province, Mr. Minister, and you, I think, probably

are in the best position to have a perspective on this of any member in

the cabinet. Your other perspective can be outside of your own

ministry, but anyway, we won't go into that for fear that I will get

off the track in terms of the vote.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the minister how the drunk driving

situation is going in terms of mandatory blood testing at the

hospitals, whether or not this is holding. We were the first

jurisdiction to go that route, and I certainly most appreciate the fact

that I did bring it up because of a terrible misadventure in our

family. I was very pleased that the Minister of Highways and the

Attorney-General at the time — and it was this Minister of Highways,

and the Attorney-General was Allan Williams at that time — decided to

go that route and go for it. I can't talk about it too much, but I note

that the minister is toughening up some more in those terms. But there

just has to be a real watch kept.

Let me get back to what the minister was saying this morning in

terms of testing cars. The RCMP and the local police are going to be

asked to keep a wary eye out for lousy vehicles. Well, I think they

should be spending a lot more time watching out for drunks on the road

and other criminal activities, and I honestly wonder whether or not

their capability.... You know, they are not trained mechanics. Sure,

they can see something that is absolutely obvious. A tail light is

banged in or a car has no muffler or something like that, but there are

so many things that they can't see. For example, if a kingpin is ready

to go, you know what happens if it does; it's dynamite. So I would

really like to see the minister pay a lot more attention to this. I

think that he is looking at it far too lightly, the whole question of

motor vehicle testing.

[3:15]

So I heard your answer to the member for Burnaby North (Mrs.

Dailly), but I sure am not satisfied with it. I am satisfied with a lot

of things you have done, but I am sure not satisfied with that. I feel

that is one real big mistake that has been made. Whether you are the

author of that mistake or not, I don't know. But I sure know that the

mistake has been made and should be corrected.

HON. MR. CURTIS: Mr. Chairman, it is with pleasure that I

rise to speak in the discussion of the minister's office. I rarely have

the chance to do this. I want to congratulate the minister for his very

capable handling of the Ministry of Transportation and Highways, with

its other entities.

There is something I have discussed with the minister on a number of

occasions that, when first raised with me, certainly appeared to be

something which would affect a very small number of people in British

Columbia. The minister may by now know what is coming. I seek no

particular commitment from him today, but rather wish to determine if

in fact this has been attempted in any other jurisdiction, either in

Canada or the United States.

The point has been made to me by one of my constituents, a retired

doctor on one of the Gulf Islands, that there is a significant number

of people in British Columbia and in Canada who have varying shades of

colour blindness. I'm fortunate that, insofar as I know, I do not have

any such difficulty. These are not individuals — men or women — who

have complete colour blindness, but rather they have certain difficulty

discerning the difference between, let us say, amber and green.

The suggestion has been made, a suggestion which I have passed on to

the minister and he has looked at it on more than one occasion, that

perhaps a pilot system could be put in place in a well advertised,

identified intersection, or a series, without changing every single

traffic light in the province, where there would be varying shapes for

green, amber and red. It commends itself to me and yet I don't have the

responsibility for this portfolio, Transportation and Highways, nor

have I determined if it has been attempted in other provinces. We've

seen this happen in the city of Victoria in another way, and in other

parts of the province, and that is

[ Page 8573 ]

with a traffic bell, whistle or identifying sound

for pedestrian traffic for those who are visually impaired. That has

been tried. I do not know the extent to which it has been proven to be

successful.

Nonetheless, it is an idea in a ministry which is noted for its

innovation. If you are the Ministry of Transportation and Highways in a

province as challenging as British Columbia, with its terrain, with its

rivers, lakes and coasts, it may be that at some point the ministry,

working with the minister, could identify a test area where these

specialized shapes for traffic lights might be tried on a two; three-

or four-year pilot basis. The minister may have an opportunity to

respond to that at his leisure.

HON. A. FRASER: I'll go back first to the Minister of

Finance. I appreciate his observations and I met the good doctor. I'm

all for trying to do something that seems to be complicated. I don't

know why it should be. I'm talking about a test. What we did, I don't

think the doctor was too happy. We've referred it to a national

organization to see if they could help. I'll give you my assurance that

we're not going to let it drop. We'll keep pursuing it. I think it's a

good idea to have a test on the thing.

Now to the member for New Westminster. It's come up several times. I

don't know whether it came up today or not, or in the question period,

but liability insurance.

I think there is one thing that hasn't been said that I want to say

about liability insurance across the board. Our government has a

cabinet committee chaired by — it wasn't replied to this way today,

probably overlooked — the Minister of Municipal Affairs on all aspects

of liability insurance, whether business, municipalities or I think

involved in the same thing you raised, Mr. Member. It's my information

that that committee's going to report to the Legislature before we

adjourn. So maybe there's something coming in government policy that

ought to be of some help. I'm not a member of the committee, but the

Minister of Municipal Affairs is the chairman of the committee. I think

you can look forward to something on the general liability insurance

mess, as we'll call it, coming from government through that committee.

Regarding good old New Westminster, I have a soft spot in my heart

for New Westminster. You know it used to be the capital. I had a

brother who lived there. I wasn't there when it was the capital but

soon afterwards. The problem, and you know it, Mr. Member, as well as I

do, with New Westminster is its geographical location. Everything

converges from all directions and it tends to be cut up. That sure has

happened, and it's sure had its effect. I don't think you agree with

me, but the Annacis crossing we're hoping will relieve the Pattullo

Bridge traffic by 25 percent. That might give some relief to New

Westminster. The 20th Street — I'm aware of that. I guess we're working

on it now to make it so it'll handle more traffic. We've rebuilt Marine

Way. It isn't a big help to New Westminster, but we've got a new Marine

Way now from New Westminster to Vancouver.

The other observation I have is that with SkyTrain terminating at

the present time.... I think it has been some help. I think they've

done a fair job on the bus feeder lines for SkyTrain. Again, that

should be some help.

As you know, we rebuilt the Queensborough Bridge, and we should be

getting full use out of that bridge because it's a four-lane bridge.

The other comment I have — and I appreciate your concern about all

the work that has been going on there — is that we've got the sanction

of the city council. I think they share some concerns.... We appreciate

the support we've had in our ministry from the city council on the

different items in New Westminster. I did hear the other day that New

Westminster was booming because of the new SkyTrain, but I don't know

whether that's so or not.

Now with the Coquitlam-Moody....

Interjection.

HON. A. FRASER: Okay, fine.

MR. COCKE: Mr. Chairman, I would ask you to give the minister

a lesson on the pronunciation of New Westminster. His brother would be

very angry with him for calling it, "minister." You see, he's so used

to being a minister that he thinks we live in New Westminister, but we

live in New Westminster.

I don't have much more to say. I notice that the minister didn't

deign to answer my question about motor vehicle testing, but I guess

he's just going to repeat what he said this morning. So I bid him a

good afternoon. See you later sometime.

HON. MR. RICHMOND: I would just like leave of the committee to make an introduction, if I may.

Leave granted.

HON. MR. RICHMOND: I would like to introduce an old friend

and political mentor of mine from Kamloops, a dedicated British

Columbian. Terry McQuillan is sitting in the gallery, and I would like

the House to make him welcome.

MR. ROSE: I'd like to welcome him as well. I don't know him,

but I was afraid for a moment that the minister was going to introduce

Phil Gaglardi, so I'm kind of relieved.

I gave a bit of a

summary on some of the things that I was

interested in, but I'd like to say two or three words in addition. I

was interested in what the Minister of Finance (Hon. Mr. Curtis) had to

say about the different colours in testing lights for people with

visual impairment or partial colour blindness. It seems to me, though,

that we are going to international systems in many other things and

maybe we could do it here — not just the colour, necessarily, but the

shape too. For instance, a stop sign has a peculiar shape. If you had

the light coming out of that hexagonal shape, it wouldn't matter if you

were colour-blind or not. If you bought your light that way, you could

understand what it was — I don't know. Similarly, an amber could he

square as well as amber, and a green could be any shape you like — a

circle for all I care.

Another idea they used to have — and it has gone out of fashion now;

it's probably 50 years old — is writing "Stop" and "Go" on the lights.

Interjection.

MR. ROSE: Not in terms of your recollection? Well, you're far

too young for that, but I recall it. Some people say I see everything

in this world through rose-coloured glasses, but that's not true either.

Let's deal with these in order. Last year the municipality of Belcarra was assisted in their highway problems to the tune

[ Page 8574 ]

of about $30,000 from the ministry, in spite of the

fact that they didn't qualify in terms of the regulations, because a

highway has to go from somewhere to somewhere, and theirs dead-ended at

that park. I think they've got ten years in total for.... The GVRD owns

and operates a major park at Belcarra — a very attractive area and

park, a regional park that attracts thousands of people every year.

Belcarra municipality has to pick up the road costs for the tremendous

number of cars and traffic congestion.

I know this is probably not very much fun to listen to. You know,

every area has got potholes, and I feel a little bit like a ward heeler

standing up here and asking him to fix my potholes, and everybody else

is standing up and doing the same thing. It reminds me of the way

politics is played in Nova Scotia: if it moves, pension it; if it

doesn't move, pave it. I'm certainly not asking for that.

I would like to suggest to the minister that Belcarra deeply

appreciates the grant made for its assistance. It will be seven years,

I think, before GVRD takes over that road maintenance. They've got

traffic congestion beyond their ability to pay. We need some solution.

It's a tremendously difficult place to get into in the summertime,

because at Sasamat Lake there are cars parked all over the place; you

can scarcely get in and out. What would happen if there was a major

fire I don't know. The congestion would be intolerable. Any kind of

assistance that they can have until the GVRD does actually take them

over would be helpful. The traffic congestion along Sasamat Lake, I

think, will be relieved a year from now, because the GVRD is putting a

beach across on the other side and a big parking lot; so that will be

kind of helpful there too.

[3:30]

Now we just completed a major highway project, the Mary Hill bypass.

I haven't heard any complaints about that, beyond the Pitt River Road

and Mary Hill bypass light; and that's now installed. The residents are

grateful for that. I think that was a useful thing. We thought, for a

little while, we might not get it.

I wasn't invited to the Mary Hill bypass opening; I don't know why.

I was the sitting member. Maybe I was just overlooked. I'm kind of

invisible, and so it was perhaps quite easy to overlook me. I remind

you, though, that when the Barrett government opened the bridge at

Mission the ex-MLA, George Mussallem, was invited; the MLA from across

the river, the present member for Chilliwack (Mr. Schroeder) was

invited to that, along with just about everybody in the area. I thought

that was class. I think leaving out the local MLA in a function like

that is not a very class act. I want to make that protest. I think the

minister is a classy guy, but I don't think that that's the way to go.

I don't think it does you any good anyway; it just makes for hard

feelings. I wanted to let you know how I feel about that one.

The other thing that I want to talk about just briefly is Port

Moody. Port Moody's got an application in for a railway overpass. It is

a part of a cost-sharing program. A specific question: I would like to

know the status of that application. As everyone knows — and I've told

this House a number of times until everybody's sick of hearing it — we

have a terrible bottleneck in Port Moody. It's one of these typical

air-inversion zones. We have just literally thousands of cars; I've

given the numbers before. It doesn't get any better; it gets worse.

There doesn't seem to be any immediate solution to it. It's a long-term

thing. I know that there's going to be some work around the traffic

lights at St. John's and Barnet, but that doesn't even start until

after Expo, and I can understand why; I'm not quarrelling with that.

But they do need help there.

What really terrifies me is that it's such a bottleneck and there's

so much congestion and there's so much traffic, much of it dangerous

cargo going in there and through there, that if there was a major

disaster, it would be major with a capital M. We saw on the news how

they tried out a crisis-team approach to a mock disaster in Toronto the

other day. I don't know if there's ever been anything done along those

lines here, but I would suggest that that would be an area that might

be well worth testing your emergency response teams on. It isn't just

dangerous cargo in there on trucks or highways; there's dangerous cargo

there frequently on boats, as well as on rail, because it's a main rail

line. So it's a very serious matter for those people who live there.

They don't want their town centre carved up. They certainly need a

bypass. I know it's not cheap, but it seems to me that they deserve one

perhaps ahead of some other areas — not that I want to be grudging to

some other areas. That's why I suggested, as the minister did, about

SkyTrain relieving the traffic. Commuter rail would relieve a lot of

traffic in that area — and it's not out of order.

The minister talked about how SkyTrain would relieve the Pattullo

Bridge traffic by approximately 25 percent. He just said that a minute

ago. I've no quarrel with that. I don't know if he's right or he isn't;

I hope he's right. But the areas in my riding.... And those people

are not only represented by me. People from Dewdney use that area; they

are stuck in that traffic jam every day of their lives, twice a day.

Commuter rail, with the support of other members of government, would

provide that assistance. I will.... that SkyTrain ever gets out to

Coquitlam Centre. So I'm not looking forward to that. So that is that

one.

They'd like some cost-sharing. I'd like to know the status of the

cost-sharing applications for the railway overpass over to.... I think

the street is Moody Street, but I'm not certain. It's just below St.

John, anyway.

I want to say a word or two about Port Coquitlam. This has to do

with the approval of rezoning which is required under the act. Any time

rezoning takes place within 400 metres — or roughly two blocks, I guess that would be —

of a major and limited-access highway, approval has to be given by

Highways. I've had a little fun with Highways in the past, and they

move with great lethargy. I don't know whether it's because of

regulations. It's certainly not because of the lack of will, and they

don't seem to be angry or rancorous. Sometimes they seem a bit inert,

but they certainly don't react aggressively. But it takes a long time

to get things done. I finally got one done myself, and if I had it to

do over again I wouldn't.

Demands are excessive to me.... To require roadside standards,

highway standards, for a dead-end road of half a block seems dumb to

me, but those are the requirements, and I had to comply the way

everyone else does. But this is specifically the city of Port

Coquitlam. They complained that their application for approval of a

rezoning — maybe two blocks away from the highway, at least 400 metres

— has to go first to Westminster. First of all the hurdle has to be

their own council. Once that's accomplished, the application goes to

Westminster. You know what Westminster does with it then? It sends it

to Burnaby. And then Burnaby sends it back to Westminster and finally

it gets back to Coquitlam.

AN HON. MEMBER: It's New Westminster.

[ Page 8575 ]

MR. ROSE: New Westminster.

They claim that this is an extremely awkward kind of arrangement.

They might even use the word archaic. I'm sure it must have some

bureaucratic.... It must make some bureaucratic sense. They say also —

I was just talking to the city clerk this morning. He likes the people.

It's not an attack on the people who have to.... They're stuck with the

structure. Maybe there might be some thought to a revision of that kind

of procedure in that area, because it holds them up about six to seven

weeks. I don't know whether it's the mails or what it is that adds to

the total, but certainly it doesn't seem to make much sense to me that

it has to go through all these stages. Surely the public could be

protected, highways and limited access could be protected — their

rights, needs, traffic flows — a little more rapidly. So they're asking

for that.

Finally the minister ultimately came to the conclusion that it would

be in the interest of British Columbians to have seatbelts for

children. That's the law of the land, and I approve of it: protective

seating for young kids in the car. This is an example where legislation

actually leads public opinion, in many cases. I don't think it occurred

in this case, because it took so long to come about. But again, I get

sick.... It's like a broken record, and I'm sure the minister.... What

scares me half to death is going down the highway seeing little kids

lying on their bellies in cab-over campers, peeking out the window.

Have you ever seen a wrecked camper or a wrecked trailer? It's just

like a matchbox. I think that there should be some kind of safety

devices for these cab-over campers. I know that it's not practical to

say you can't ride in them, like you can't ride in trailers. I approve

of not being able to have occupants in trailers and towed vehicles. I'm

not sure what the stats are on the safety of cab-over campers, people

riding in those, if there happens to be a serious wreck. The minister

agreed that this was a very frightening prospect. I think I raised this

three years ago, and I want to know what's happened to it and what the

thinking of the department might be on that subject. With that, I'll

sit down.

HON. A. FRASER: I'll reply to the member for Coquitlam-Moody.

Back to the start, the Port Moody bypass. For the information of the

committee, presently route 7A, Barnet Highway, utilized the city's main

street St. Johns as its route; daily volume downtown is in the order of

40,000 vehicles a day with a fair level of congestion in rush hours.

The city proposed a bypass route in the vicinity of the Barnet-loco

Road area north of the downtown, joining route 7A Barnet about one

kilometre north of St. Johns. This is an extraordinarily expensive

route involving considerable structure and requiring considerable

traffic volumes to justify it. The ministry proposed a different

routing to reduce costs, but this route is also very expensive. The

notes I have here, the bypass is premature; the ministry proposes

operational improvements associated with the proposed Barnet upgrading.

I think in your second series of questions you ask about a railroad

overpass, and I don't know where that is at. But I will agree with you

completely that there is sure lots of congestion in Port Moody. One

other thing has happened which might be of some relief. I understand

that recently a new parking lot has been created which is east of Port

Moody a short ways, and people there, commuters, can park their car and

take a bus to the SkyTrain.

I don't know whether that is....

Interjection.

HON. A. FRASER: Yes, Coquitlam centre. They have that fountain. It might be of some help.

Now dealing with Belcarra. As you know through your representations

in the House last year, Mr. Member, we met them and we gave them a

grant. I realize that their problem is created by a greater Vancouver

regional park, but when we gave the grant, I thought we cleaned up the

problem. I think that was agreed to, but I don't know.

I have one other observation, and I guess our government people....

My opinion is, being a former municipal councillor, I don't think

Belcarra ever should have been incorporated. That is my personal

opinion. I think that is one; it's very small, and they just haven't

got the finances. My understanding is their population is below 500 or

thereabouts. It is my personal opinion, for what it is worth, that that

creates the problem, will create it until it is addressed. But we did

help, and I think I sent a time to them when I met them. They also have

a problem with the — maybe part of their problem is the Greater

Vancouver Regional District; it is their park. But I sympathize with

them, and as I say, we have done something to help.

Zoning approvals. Well, Mr. Chairman and the committee, zoning

approvals aren't as simple as we would like to think. I am talking

about our senior people. Some zoning approvals are $40 million and $50

million shopping centres. Our concern then becomes what that shopping

centre is going to do to the traffic patterns of the highway system.

But in conclusion of that, we have now shifted some staff to overcome

the problem that you brought up. In other words, to shift staff from

less busy areas to busier areas so there isn't as much delay as has

been the case in the past.

[3:45]

The last item that I have here — oh, I want to deal with Mary Hill

bypass. Yes, we completed that finally, talked about it for years. We

are still getting some observations about they don't like how we

connect with the freeway. I think our engineers are looking at

improving that. I don't know when that will be corrected.

What I am leading up to, the reason I mention the Mary Hill bypass,

is that the opening of the Mary Hill bypass was on a foggy morning,

real foggy. That isn't any excuse. I want to apologize to you, Mr.

Member, for not inviting you, and I take the full responsibility for

that. It was a complete oversight. I'm sorry about that. But they did

get it open. I didn't make it myself, as a matter of fact, but they

have a new road system in place that I think has been talked about in

the Legislature for 20 years.

Commuter rail? That's not my responsibility, and that's an easy way

to brush it off. I have had discussions, I believe with the Provincial

Secretary in charge of SkyTrain — I'm pretty sure — but I've also

talked to the Member of Parliament for the area, Gerry St. Germain, who

seemed to be promoting a lot. It just seems to go around and around; I

don't think commuter rail is going anywhere. That's the impression I

got. There's trouble with the CPR as well. They want big fees for using

their tracks and so on.

The last item I’ve got here is seatbelts for children. Yes, we

finally went ahead with that, I think in 1984. We are concerned with

the observation you've made about children and campers, and our

ministry is presently looking into it to see what we can do about it.

We'd like to do something. It looks like if they come up with a

solution.... I don't think

[ Page 8576 ]

we can do it by regulation. We'd probably have to

do it by legislation. But we are concerned about it, and it looks like

something might happen in the next 12 months.

MR. ROSE: Just briefly, I thank the minister for his comments

about Belcarra, but it is a fact that that municipality exists; whether

or not it should, it seems a little tardy to argue about it. I was a

member of this House when the approval was given for a municipality,

but they are stuck with a certain number of problems. Mayor Drew and

some of the other people involved in it have to solve them, and they're

grateful for your help. I don't know that anything ever ends. They're

not asking for a handout, but until the GVRD takes them over they do

face a terrific problem.

On the highway approval stuff, if it's a big shopping centre and it

really spews a lot of extra traffic, I can understand approval taking a

long time. But if it's a house going from, say, single family dwelling

to duplex two blocks away, I can't see it as a major hurdle that would

take five or six weeks.

Finally, to the minister's apology about the Belcarra thing and the

opening, I'm sorry to hear he was in a fog that morning. I was so angry

with him. This probably wasn't the first time he's been fogged in, but

I do wish him all the best. I'll just tell him that I ordered the fog,

I was so mad at him for that.

MR. STUPICH: I have a number of questions to refer to the

minister which I've raised over a number of years. Some of them I did

get answers for in earlier years, but it's so long ago that.... I

haven't forgotten them, but I'm concerned that the minister may have

forgotten. I'd like to find out whether he's still thinking as he was

some years ago.

One of them was the pedestrian crossing at the entrance to Transfer

Beach Park in the city of Ladysmith. I did raise this with the minister

about six years ago, I think, when I was asked by the city of Ladysmith

to raise it. The minister at that time promised an underpass when the

rebuilding of that highway took place. I don't know whether there are

different plans now or whether there may even be a possibility of

bypassing Ladysmith, but it is a pretty serious problem. There is

increasing traffic crossing the Trans-Canada Highway — pedestrians

getting to Transfer Beach as well as cars. I wonder whether the

minister is still thinking about an underpass for pedestrians or

whether there is something different in mind.

Traveling just a little further north, there is a dangerous

situation at the south end of Diamond Bridge for traffic that is

proceeding northerly on the highway and wanting to turn left to go on

to Christie Road. There is a road off to the side. I don't know what

you call it; you call it a frontage road if you use it for commercial

purposes, but this is a road simply to get you off the highway and out

of the way. Then you approach the highway right at the south end of

Diamond Bridge and wait until traffic slows down from both directions

long enough for you to dash with the car across the highway and hope

that you don't hit or get hit by anybody coming from either the north

or the south. A left-turn lane at the south end of Diamond Bridge,

while we are waiting for the replacement of Diamond Bridge that the

minister said was on next year's program.... I think that was five

years ago. I can appreciate again that things change, but I think that

the replacement of Diamond Bridge must still be a fairly high priority

in the ministry's plans.... But I wonder if, in the meantime, a

left-turn lane at the south end of Diamond Bridge would not be a safer

way of getting onto Christie Road from the south, rather than that side

road that people line up on and close their eyes and dash.

Another place where I have been asked to request a left turn lane is

where traffic from Takala Road at Oyster Bay enters the highway from

the westerly side. I have had a letter and visited the site at the

request of a Shirley Lamontaigne. There has been some improvement done

there. It was a very bad situation in that traffic driving on Takala

Road and wanting to proceed either north or south on the highway had

very limited vision to the left because of a high bluff and a curve.

Going to the south, of course, it was fairly simple as long as you got

a good head of speed up before you hit the highway, because it is

two-lane traffic, but if people coming southerly on the Trans-Canada

Highway were coming around that curve pretty fast, you didn't have much

time to get out of the way before they were upon you. So it is a bad

situation. But once again the greatest concern is for those who are

traveling northerly on the highway and wanting to turn left onto Takala

Road. There is more room there now for a widening of the highway to

provide for a left-turn lane, because a considerable amount of

rock-cutting has been done. I understand the rock-cutting wasn't done

to improve that situation so much as it was because the rock was

required somewhere else, but it served two purposes. But again, a left

turn lane would certainly make it much safer for vehicles to travel

north and then turn to the west to enter Takala Road.

Then getting into Nanaimo, which has provided the minister with a

lot of problems in recent years and also given him some relief — and he

has commented upon this on previous occasions — in that the city

council doesn't seem to be able to get its act together or hasn't for

quite a number of years. They have made decisions and been very good at

making decisions, but very soon after a decision is made, the council

changes its position and reverses its decision and comes up with a new

answer to the problem, and they just keep changing. The minister

responded to me once in the Legislature by saying that until the city

council makes up its mind he is quite prepared to sit there and not do

anything about the problems in Nanaimo, because why step in and solve

somebody else's problems and incur the displeasure of certain people?

But I think they are coming closer, and I sent a copy of the chamber of

commerce newsletter to the minister because it does list the various

points on which there has been some measure of agreement. I wonder

whether the minister can comment on the report of the transportation

committee of the Nanaimo Chamber of Commerce with respect to the points

listed on this letter. It is a letter that I dated May, 1986.

The first point was the upgrading and completion of Stewart Avenue

to Highway I standards from Cypress Street north to Brechin Road. It is

of Highway I standards as far north as Cypress Street, but from there

on it's a two-lane road. So there certainly is the need to proceed with

the widening of that highway right to Brechin Road, which is the

beginning of the B.C. Ferries entrance.

The second point they make is the upgrading of sections of Highway 1

from Esplanade through to Woodhouse Street, and Highway 19 from Stewart

Avenue north to St. George Street. I know the minister is familiar with

all of these problems; he's heard a lot about them over the years from

myself, the chamber of commerce and the city.

The third point is the bypass, which the minister talked about earlier today when he said that perhaps the worst part of

[ Page 8577 ]

the Island Highway is that portion of it going

through the city of Nanaimo. He also talked about the difficulty of

acquiring property. I would just suggest, Mr. Chairman — and I'm sure

the minister would agree — that in recent years there hasn't been a

better time to acquire property, ever hopeful that the economy may

improve. If the economy does improve, it's going to be that much more

expensive to acquire the property that's needed. So I would urge some

haste in arriving at a decision as to the exact location of the bypass,

and some haste in acquiring the property before prices do move up.

Then the Bowen Road upgrading and four-laning, which has been

proceeding at an orderly pace. That's the way these things should

happen. I don't think we should be rushing to complete jobs. There have

been highway projects in the province where we've been in a fantastic

hurry to get everything done; working overtime, working holidays,

everything. But I think the Bowen Road job is coming along well. It's

being four-laned. I hope it will continue and that eventually we'll

have it done totally. Then the additional river crossing with a

northwest sector road.

There's just one other thing that isn't on there, which I've

mentioned previously and which I think the minister has never commented

on. I believe one of the worst situations in Nanaimo, perhaps anywhere

in the province, has to be the intersection — it's not one

intersection; it's two and it may even be four — where Brechin Road

meets Estevan Road meets the Island Highway meets Departure Bay Road.

There are four roads coming into.... If they met all at one point it

wouldn't be so bad, Mr. Chairman; but they don't. They meet two at a

time or three at a time; they never all come to one point. If you sort

of dropped a bomb there and had to build it all over again, and

relocated the roads so that everything met at one point, it would solve

a lot of the problems. There are two traffic lights on the Island

Highway within one hundred yards of each other.

I don't know the answer. Perhaps the minister hasn't responded in

the past because he doesn't know the answer either, or perhaps it's

just too doggone expensive to do anything about. I don't know of

another situation in the province where those problems exist all in one

small area, in one acre of land. I'd appreciate the minister's comments.

HON. A. FRASER: Before I answer the specifics, yes, we sure

have lots of problems in Nanaimo — a bottleneck in Nanaimo — a lot of

them not easy to resolve.

The member brought up the transportation committee of the chamber of

commerce. The item one, upgrading completion of Stewart Avenue to

Highway I standards from Cypress Street north to Brechin Road: it says

here in brackets that it's the responsibility of the province, with the

city paying a minor share for draining, lighting and sidewalks. I'm

happy to tell you, Mr. Member, that the design is near completion and

we're buying right-of-way now; so that project is on the way. You're

quite correct in your observation that it's a good time to buy real

estate, what with the market. They're actually purchasing right-of-way

now.

The next item is upgrading of sections of Highway I from Esplanade

through to Woodhouse, and Highway 19 from Stewart Avenue north to St.

George Street. Yes, I assume that that is a provincial responsibility,

and no commitments have been made there at all.

[4:00]

Item 3, the future bypass, which has become a provincial

responsibility; that's correct. The bypass is under design at the

present time. The other part — on the Chambers.... The note I have on

the northwest sector road, including the additional river crossing. Is

that those are city streets and they're eligible on their

transportation plan for revenue-sharing money, which comes out of

Municipal Affairs.

You brought up the pedestrian underpass at Transfer Beach near

Ladysmith. This is included in the proposed design for four-laning. The

left-turn lane request for the south end of Diamond Bridge. The answer

I have on that is that it's too close to the structure to get the width

for another lane. The left-turn lane request for Takala Road in Oyster

Bay. We'll have to look into this because the people don't want to

commit there — they'll have to look into it. The last item you brought

up was Brechin and Estevan — Highway 19, Departure Bay. The note I have

on that is that we redesigned this several years ago with a consultant

and the city. Changes were made at that time. That's the best we can do

for now. That is quite an intersection.

MR. MacWILLIAM: I have a number of concerns that I wish to

bring to the minister's attention. Before I do, I'd just like to take

this opportunity to congratulate our new deputy minister, Mr. Johnson,

on his recent promotion. I might add that I've already had the

opportunity to speak with Mr. Johnson a number of times, and I've found

him most fair to deal with and very open to concerns, at least in the

north Okanagan. I find it's a very worthwhile working relationship

between the MLA's office and the Ministry of Highways. I just wanted to

make that point because I feel that it is of real value to have open

communications regardless of what side of the House a member may be

sitting on, and I recognize his value and experience in that area.

[Mr. Ree in the chair.]

I'd also like to present to the minister the fact of our new

district manager, Mr. Popoff, who was recently appointed and has been

proving to be, I think, a very competent and able administrator. He

seems to be responding well to local concerns, and I thought I should

bring that to your attention.

A number of local issues. The one I want to address first is one

that is of immediate and pressing concern. If the minister could refer

to the May 15 edition of The British Columbia Gazette ,

on page 713 — "Establishing the Right-of-Way for East Vernon Road,

Okanagan North Electoral District" — notice is given for the

expropriation of property, as is explained in detail in that

publication. As I mentioned, this publication came out on May 15, so

notice for expropriation has been given. However, nothing seems to have

been done with this particular problem. The owner of the property, Mr.

George Penno, has apparently put up fencing and installed irrigation

pipes right up to the pavement along the portion of property in

question.

The reason I bring this to the minister's attention and suggest that

it is of immediate concern is that this property is right next to an

elementary school. The children are being forced to walk right along

the roadway because there is virtually no shoulder whatsoever at this

point. The principal of the school has tried to deal with the

individual, Mr. Penno, and apparently — it's my understanding — was

accosted at gunpoint. As well, individuals in the fire department have

been treated in a similar manner on other occasions. A commissioner has

apparently been hired to walk the children,

[ Page 8578 ]

because the corridor is so narrow and the traffic

problem.... The kids are having to come right out on the road. It's a

really dangerous situation, and it has gone on for far too long. We can

be thankful that there haven't been any serious accidents.

The lawyer for Mr. Penno, Mr. Einfeld, has apparently refused to

answer the requests from the Highways department in terms of the

expropriation and, I might add, is presently spraying both pesticides

and his irrigation water right on to the roadway because the pipes are

coming up apparently right onto the road.

Now Mr. Penno apparently is aware of the gazetting. He's been made

aware of the legality of the situation. He's been advised to move. He's

simply and totally ignoring the situation. In fact, he's throwing up

every roadblock that there is, and my concern is that nothing has been

done. It seems that the ministry is procrastinating on this. They have

published the information on expropriation and can use

section 17 of

the Highway Act to initiate action. I would like to ask the minister at

this time whether he intends to take immediate action.

I might add that the fencing that comes right up to the roadway is

five-strand barbed wire fencing. The clearance has been reduced to 19

feet of clearance, single lane traffic with warning signs put up by

district Highways because of the danger. I think the situation is

totally unacceptable, and without any prejudice in the matter I feet

that the danger is significant enough to the young children who are in

the school there that something has to be done immediately. I'd like

the minister's response at this point.

HON. A. FRASER: Mr. Chairman, to the member for Okanagan

North, yes, our ministry has a problem. To bring you up to date, this

is what we've done about it. As you have said, I think, Mr. Penno has

put up fences at the edge of the pavement. We have recently been in

touch with Mr. Penno's lawyer and advised him that the fence is in

trespass and Mr. Penno could be responsible. Penno's lawyer has told us

his client will remove the fence. We propose to give him some time to

remove the fence before we take further action, and I would think that

I agree with the report from the senior people on that in view of the

fact that we're probably greeted with guns. So we're trying to get it

settled, in other words, in a reasonable fashion. You mentioned that

guns were used before, but the reason I mention that is that will be

the reason for our apparent slowness in moving.

MR. MacWILLIAM: Mr. Chairman, it seems rather absurd that

that type of situation does exist, but I've been advised that that

information is accurate, although I can't attest to it firsthand. I'm

pleased to see that you have been in touch with the lawyer. However,

it's my understanding that even since that information has been

conveyed to Mr. Penno he's attempting to forestall the proceedings by a

number of mechanisms. The minister has said that he will give a

reasonable amount of time for action to be taken. What would the

minister consider to be a reasonable amount of time, because three

weeks have elapsed and the minister is quite free to institute

section

17 at this time.

HON. A. FRASER: Mr. Chairman, to the member, the deputy tells

me it's only about ten days ago that the lawyer agreed to have his

client take it out. I would guess a reasonable length of time would be

another two weeks to actually get it done.

MR. MacWILLIAM: I thank the minister for his response. I

would hope that the minister recognizes full well the seriousness of

the nature of the immediate danger to those children who have to use

that particular

section of roadway. I would ask that he remain

committed to resolving this in the quickest manner possible.

Moving on to another area of concern, as the minister is fully

aware, the Poison Park bridge, an overpass which actually spans the

railway lines that come through Vernon, has been an issue of

longstanding concern. The minister has been in receipt of previous

correspondence from my office regarding the danger to traffic. I might

add that there's a particular danger to motorcycle traffic because of

the surface, or rather the lack of surface, of the bridge. I myself as

a motorcycle enthusiast can attest to the danger of that bridge

personally. I might add that I went over the bridge just the other day

and the surface is completely worn off. They're down to the bare wood

and the spikes sticking through. It's really in bad shape again.

I don't need to go on. The minister is fully aware of that. He's

also aware that he's given a commitment that it will be upgraded. At

this point, I guess, I'd like to ask the minister what the status of

the bridge is, in terms of the design. What is the status in terms of

calling for tenders for work to be done? What is the status with regard

to the negotiations taking place presently with the railway?

HON. A. FRASER: I just want to say one more thing regarding

Mr. Penno and his property. I'm further advised by staff that the RCMP

have been notified, and we've asked for their help for the safety of

those people until we can clear this up.

Dealing with the Poison Park bridge, we intend to call tenders on

the bridge. I am not specific on that, but it won't be very long from

now. I might say, for the benefit of the committee and the member, that

I intend to be in the good city of Vernon on June 13, and maybe I'll

have something to say about it then.

[4:15]

MR. MacWILLIAM: Well, in response to the minister's comment

about being in Vernon on June 13, I'm pleased that he's taking the

opportunity to visit the North Okanagan. I would assume it's for some

reason, perhaps for opening a highway or a

section of a highway. I will

certainly, if the minister can convey that to me, make every attempt to

make sure that the local representative is also there to attend the

ceremonies.

With regard to another issue which the minister is presently in

negotiation with, that's the 32nd Street extension, which would extend

Highway 97 through the main drag, if you like, of the city of Vernon,

extending the four-lane

section of Highway 97 through Vernon,

eliminating some of the dangerous right-angle comers that presently

exist and finally swinging back onto the highway north of town. I

wonder if the minister can advise as to the present status of the

design for the 32nd Street extension, and whether he can advise when

the commencement of work would be proceeding.

HON. A. FRASER: The Vernon 32nd Street extension is what

we're discussing here. This project involves extending 32nd Street

northerly as route 97 from 43rd for three kilometres to meet the

present route 97 at the south end of Swan

[ Page 8579 ]

Lake. This will eliminate the jog in route 97 on

43rd Street and allow the 27th Street

section of route 97 to revert to

more local service as a major street.

Preliminary planning is not complete. Foundation soils will be a

major problem on this section. Application is before the Land

Commission for approval of part of the route that is in ALR. I'm

advised just as of today or yesterday that the Land Commission has

approved the application to take it out, so we're moving along. I would

not anticipate construction starting shortly, but we're getting close.

Hopefully it'll be in the 1987 program. But we're doing the

administrative work. The deputy tells me we have a consultant working

on the design now, getting ready for a tender call.

MR. MacWILLIAM: Was the minister mentioning the funding for 1987? Is he saying that there is no funding for that in the present fiscal year?

HON. A. FRASER: The most we will be doing regarding physical

work is test fills and that. But we will be doing that in '86 and then

be ready to go with the main job in '87.

MR. MacWILLIAM: Just moving back to the previous question

involving Polson Park bridge, could the minister advise if there is

funding budgeted for that in the '86 fiscal year?

HON. A. FRASER: To answer that, I'm not sure. I will have to

check back. There might be the funding in the budget to make a start on

it, put it that way. I think that is the case, but I am not sure. But

not for completion.

MR. MacWILLIAM: Thank you to the minister for those responses.

Another issue of concern to the people along the Arrow Lakes is an

issue that I had brought to the minister's attention back in the late

fall sometime and that was brought to the minister's attention through

direct correspondence. I am in receipt of a copy directed to the

minister on February 17 from a Mrs. Annette Devlin, who is the

secretary of the Fauquier community club. It outlines the concerns that

the community has regarding the present Bailey bridge, a single-lane

temporary bridge structure spanning Stony Creek about 12 kilometres

north of Fauquier, between Fauquier and Burton. I have been along that

road a number of times, and I can attest to the fact that that bridge

is not safe. It is single-lane traffic, and the way that the traffic

approaches that bridge causes some real concerns, especially if you

don't know the road.

I might add that students are bused back and forth along that road

twice a day. I think a number of buses go along the road, as well as a

considerable amount of local traffic between the communities of

Edgewood, Fauquier, Burton and the main community of Nakusp.

I have been informed previously by the district manager in

discussions by telephone that there have been engineering studies and

design studies done on the bridge. Those studies have been completed.

Basically, the only thing needed at this point is funding for the

actual construction of the bridge. In checking with Mr. Kazakoff,

district manager in New Denver, they have still not received any

funding, and it is only just a few hours ago that we contacted them. So

the district manager is unaware of any funding. I know that I addressed

this issue earlier with the minister, and he indicated that funding

would be forthcoming.

I would suggest that in the light of a banner tourism year, which

Expo 86 is intended to promote, we should be making every attempt to

facilitate the flow of our tourism traffic, particularly in the

interior areas. This is a serious problem; during the summer months the

heavier traffic along the Arrow Lakes is causing some considerable

concern. I wonder if the minister could advise whether or not there has

been any funding established for the construction of this bridge in

HON. A. FRASER: Mr. Chairman, the answer is no, there is no

funding, no provision for a new bridge at this location. I just want to

allay the fears of the member and the people, though, the Bailey bridge

there is quite safe. The only thing I guess that is not safe about it

is that it is single lane. A little bit of the history: I understand

the main bridge was washed out a few years ago and replaced with a

Bailey, but we do not have any funds this year to replace the Bailey

with a permanent structure.

MR. MacWILLIAM: Can the minister advise how long the temporary bridge has been in place?

HON. A. FRASER: In this business, Mr. Chairman, they say there's nothing more permanent than when they talk about temporary items.

MR. MacWILLIAM: I guess I have to go to bat for the residents

of that area, who really feel they've been short-changed in terms of

their Highways budget allocation. It seems to be a reasonable request

that this bridge, which is temporary, which is single-lane, which is

dangerous, I would suggest.... The bridge itself may be safe, but the

approaches to the bridge and the highway conditions sometimes

experienced in that area cause some real problems. There have been many

near misses in that area as a direct result of the bridge. I have to

emphasize to the minister that with the millions of dollars expended on

highways projects throughout B.C. In the past few years, I'm not

prepared to accept that. I'm not criticizing those projects, but with

the millions of dollars expended, surely enough money could have been

allocated for the construction of a fairly minor bridge to facilitate

the smooth flow of traffic. I would suggest to the minister that the

people in that area will not be willing to accept that situation, and I

feel you should reconsider it. It's an area that is often, I think,

overlooked in terms of highway priorities. Highway 6 along the Arrow

Lakes is not the best piece of road. It's often had problems with

slumping and sliding and what not. I think the minister should pay a

little more attention to this particular piece of road.

With regard to the Coquihalla Highway, I must admit to the minister

that I've driven the highway twice now back and forth to my community,

and I'm very impressed with the engineering. It saved me a considerable

amount of time, both going up and coming back down. I was quite

surprised at the time it did cut off. But a few concerns with regard to

phase 3. Last year the minister said two proposals were being

considered for the Merritt to Peachland route. I'd like to ask the

minister what the present status is of these proposals; whether a final

decision has been made. I'd also like to ask the minister what the

present status is of the west side corridor which swings north from

Peachland up to Vernon. You mentioned last year that the corridor would

be identified by September 1985, so I hope that decision has been made.

[ Page 8580 ]

With respect to that, a question comes to my mind. which I guess

just comes down to a simple rationale, the politics of road-building

aside altogether. When I traveled north on the Coquihalla, I took the

opportunity to travel from Merritt through the Douglas Lakes plateau,

which is a gravel road that exits out onto Highway 97 around the

Falkland-Westwold area. I really wonder why the west side corridor,

rather than coming up the west side of Okanagan Lake...instead of being

there, why wasn't it considered to come directly from Merritt, to come

out where it presently exits at the junction of Highway 97A and Highway

97 in the north arm of Okanagan Lake? It comes right over the Douglas

Lakes area. It's fairly gentle terrain. I guess I'm asking in terms of

my own interest in it whether there was any consideration of a route

going through there. In terms of effecting a smooth flow of traffic it

would provide another route, separate from the Peachland to Merritt

route, that would facilitate a smooth flow of traffic.

Perhaps the minister can comment on those.

[Mr. Strachan in the chair.]

HON. A. FRASER: I just want to go back to the Bailey bridge.

Maybe this is where we agree or disagree, but quite frankly, Mr.

Member, in your riding our priority is, I guess, where the heavy

traffic is. I think you'll have to agree that we have spent or are

spending $18 million minimum from Vernon south on Highway 97. As I

understood it, the community wanted that rebuilt road to get access to,

as an example, Kelowna airport. To help relieve the Okanagan Valley

generally we did a lot of work on the north end, and that work was done

on the south end. In an area like that the original contract is

completed at $11 million to $12 million; the second contract is under

construction. I'm referring to heading south from Vernon on 97.

That's really how our engineers arrive at priorities — where the

traffic density is. I guess money can be found to fix it all, but....

One of the reasons is that the engineers don't feel there's anything

unsafe about the Bailey bridge. Your riding is not the only one; we've

got a lot of Bailey bridges in place throughout the province, and they

are safe, except drivers don't want to slow down for single lane

bridges, and that presents some hazard.

[4:30]

Coquihalla phase 3: I'm not so sure I've got all the answers here

you want, but on Coquihalla phase 3, as I said this morning, we have

not only designed but let the first contract out, Peachland going west.

What I'm not sure of is that all the route is laid out from there to

Merritt. In any case, it's being worked on, and we haven't come to a

position where we can say that the contracts will be called and the

phase 3 will be completed. I hope we can arrive at that and certainly

before the end of the summer be able to say that we've laid out the

route finally, that we are ready to call contracts and get on with the

rest of the tender business and so on, and also be able to say when

that phase 3 would be complete from Peachland to Merritt.

Regarding the west side road, staff advise me the corridor study has

revealed extensive environmental and physical problems and it's still

being studied. That's the status of the west side route.

MR. MacWILLIAM: I don't want to go back, but because the

minister had gone back and responded to a previous question, just to

clarify with regard to the Bailey bridge, I gave the assessment that

the bridge was dangerous, or perhaps not the bridge itself but the

approach. That's not the concern of a single individual; there are many

individuals in that community who have related that concern to me. I

don't think it's a matter of slowing down so much, Mr. Minister,

through you, Mr. Chairman, but rather the particular approach to the

bridge; and I think you have to be there to see it, because it is sort

of obstructed. You don't realize that you're coming up to it until you

are there. For a tourist who is not familiar with the highway, driving

that road if they're tired at night, there could be some real problems.

Yes, I realize that the pot's not unlimited. There is a limit to

what we can expend on a yearly basis. I just have to re-emphasize that

the people along the Arrow Lakes feel neglected enough in terms of the

economy of that area and always getting the tail end of the cat, if you

like, and they have addressed what the communities there really do feel

is a concern that should be looked at. I would like to impress that

upon the minister. If at all possible, could he review that and

consider their concerns for the upgrading of that particular section?

I want to go back to what the minister was saying about the west

side corridor which swings north from Kelowna up along the west side of

Okanagan Lake and exits just north of Vernon at the O'Keefe Ranch. It

seems to me that the simple logic of the matter, now that we have made

the decision to four-lane Highway 97 right from Vernon down through

Kelowna and provide a four-lane access all the way up the east side of

the lake, is that it is a little redundant to also provide a four-lane

access up the west side of the lake which is running only a few miles

apart from and parallel to the east side access.

I guess I'm just questioning more, and I'm taking politics right

aside on this. I know roads are very political in British Columbia, but

just in looking at it.... I don't know if the minister can see the map,

but we're swinging all the way south down from Merritt to Kelowna and

then all the way back up north. Now, if that west side connector, or

corridor if you like, could be swung directly from Merritt across to

Vernon, we'd be eliminating quite a few miles in terms of accommodating

traffic flow. It would be going over the Douglas Lakes area and exiting

at the north end of Okanagan Lake.

It seems to me that that makes more sense than dualtracking two

four-lane highways, one on either side of the lake. It seems a more

rational approach. I wonder if the minister has any comments on that.

It's a suggestion I make for the minister's consideration.

HON. A. FRASER: The comment I have, and the policy that's

been adopted — that is, to build from Peachland to Merritt — is that

we're trying to focus on the centre of population in the Okanagan, not

just on the north end. I think we pretty well hit that.

MR. MacWILLIAM: I don't want to extend the debate

unnecessarily, but I wasn't actually referring to that section. You

could still leave that

section in there and take the west-side corridor

and move it directly over, so you have two forks coming out, rather

than going down and then all the way back up. You're saving quite a bit

of mileage in terms of direct access to the north end of Okanagan Lake

— directly from Merritt to the north end. Leave the Peachland connector

in.

[ Page 8581 ]

Consideration: what you're doing now is double-tracking two

four-lane highways, one up the east side and one up the west side. I

guess I'm just wondering if that's a judicious expenditure of

taxpayers' money. Now that we've made the decision to four-lane the

east side of Okanagan Lake, and it's already in progress.... The

minister has confirmed that. Rather than double-tracking that, the

consideration is that perhaps we could go straight across instead of up

the west side.

Okay, moving on to another area: a portion of the Yellowhead Highway

from the CN junction in Kamloops to north of Heffley Creek, which is a

section of the Yellowhead Highway about 17 kilometres in length. Anyone

going north from Kamloops or coming from the north has to use this

piece of road. The locals apparently refer to it as the "goat trail."

It's a two-lane road which is very narrow. It has no shoulders. The

information we've received is that it's substandard. There is lots of

traffic — lots of commercial traffic, I might add. The commercial

traffic, the truckers, claim that it's one of the most dangerous

sections of road that can be found from Edmonton to Vancouver.

Apparently the ministry has just been patching the road and not

doing any major reconstruction in that area. I wonder if the ministry

has any plans for a major upgrading of this

section of the road, in

light of the comments made by the commercial truckers that it is a

dangerous

section of highway.

HON. A. FRASER: I hear about that

section of road every day.

From a lot of people, I don't think it's as bad as its made out to be,

but the story behind it is that we spent millions living up to promises

the former NDP government made in that area....

Interjection.

HON. A. FRASER: The member for Vancouver East.... You would be aware of your promises in Kamloops when you were government, Mr. Member.

We finally lived up to the former government's promises. I'm talking

about four-laning from Kamloops and building a new $10 million Halston

bridge. You're talking about Highway 5 immediately beyond that. The

reason we're stalled is we had acquired the land from the Kamloops

Indian band to go ahead. They came to us and said: "We don't like what

you're going to do, and we want to relocate the highway you're

contemplating, because it's going to interfere with our agricultural

operation." They have a large one. That's where we're at at the present

time in trying to do something with that

section of road. We want to

satisfy the Indian band that it won't have the greatest impact on their

agricultural operation. We have actually acquired the right-of-way, but

what they're really saying is: "We'd like you to move it." That's what

we're trying to get settled.

I might say that the condition that's caused that is that we have a

large urban growth in the area, compounded with commercial traffic.

Yes, the road has to be upgraded, relocated, four-laned, and it will

be. But until we get the ground to build it on, I can't give anything

definitive at this time.

MR. MacWILLIAM: Mr. Chairman, I guess this example is sort of

like the Bailey bridge example, where the ministry does seem to have

unlimited resources in terms of the major projects, yet small local

projects which are of considerable concern because of the safety

element — two of them that we've identified here, although in separate

areas entirely — go wanting, while the major projects such as the

Coquihalla and the four-laning of 97 take priority. I guess what I'm

saying to the minister is that attention has to be paid to the needs of

the local communities that have addressed very specific problems to the

ministry in terms of safety considerations.

One of the last items that I want to bring up for the minister was

brought to my attention by a local blasting contractor in the north

Okanagan area. He was quite upset. He came to see me around about

March, and I promised I'd bring up this issue on his behalf. He came to

see me because he's very upset that local firms can't seem to get work

on the major government jobs for highway construction. His complaint is

that the highway projects are all tendered out to the large general

contractors and then the general contractors import a lot of their own

subcontractors, I guess a lot of times from the Vancouver area, and it

leaves the local contractors out in the cold.

About four years ago, as I've been led to understand, money was

apparently allocated to regional Highways managers in order for them to

hire local contractors. The question that this particular individual

was asking was: why can't the district Highways personnel supervise

future jobs and subcontract to local firms so that we an maximize the

amount of local hiring, rather than simply contracting the whole job

out to one overall or general contractor and then letting them hire

their own friends in the business, often not local firms. The local

firms are being left out, and I think this is something that has to be

considered when you're doing highway construction projects. Local

hiring needs have to be accommodated.

HON. A. FRASER: Mr. Chairman, the member raises an ongoing

issue we have every day in the ministry, and that is: who gets the work

and who doesn't? Generally speaking there are two programs in the

ministry. Large jobs and small go to tender call and go to the low

bidder. Then in the case of a fair-sized job, the contractor can

subcontract — as an example, a blasting contract. When they do that,

they have to have the permission of our chief engineer. We have to know

who it is, and so on and so forth. That way they can hire local firms,

but unfortunately they don't do that sometimes, and they bring them

from the lower mainland and they bring them right into the area where a

local firm is there sitting and out of work. It is an embarrassment to

the government.

[4:45]

The other program we have is what we call day labour, where our own

people supervise and rent the individual piece of equipment, whether

loaders, graders, dump trucks and blasting equipment — all that sort of

stuff — and all that work goes to local people. We have an equipment

list, and they're called out on the basis of where they stand on our

hiring list. That is in constant argument every day when we are calling

people out, because in some district offices — I don't know about

Vernon — we have 200 dump trucks on the list from number I to 200, and

we call 20 out to work and the other 180 come in and say, "How come I

wasn't called? I'm in the first 20, " and the argument is on. But

generally that is by far the best program we have to get the work to

the local people, and the money stays locally.

In other words, we're doing a balancing act. We're trying to keep it

so everybody can live and work — the large contractor as well as the

small one- or two-truck operator or

[ Page 8582 ]

bulldozer operator. We have had funds, thanks to

the treasury branch, so the last couple of years there's been a fair

amount of work throughout the province — I'm talking for both — not as

much as a lot of them would like, but that's how it's all done. It's

all done by our good management people and works out fairly

successfully.

MR. MacWILLIAM: In terms of the ministry tendering out the

major contracts to the general contractors, it seems reasonable that

there could easily be a rider in that tender that would require the

general contractor to hire local firms. Would it not be possible to

build that into the contracting? I am not saying hire local firms

exclusively, but at least they should be given a fair shot to be able

to compete on that job.

But I really think what is happening is that many of these large

general contractors, often Vancouver-based contractors, are hiring the

people that they have worked with, for example, in the Vancouver area.

As a result, as we have mentioned before, the local firms go in need of

work, and they are left out in the cold. Can't you build something into

the contract itself?

HON. A. FRASER: Mr. Chairman, we have looked at all these

angles. I will give you an example. We have different types of paving

contractors. I know of two or three that have all their own equipment:

25 dump trucks, the hot-mix plant and so on. By the way, they have a

union contract as well. If they are a low bidder, we can't very well

say to them, "Hey, you've got to hire 50 percent local," because he bid

on the basis that he will use his equipment.

We also have hot-mix contractors, particularly on the paving side,

who don't have their own trucks, and we tell them that we want them to

hire in the local area where they are working. They accommodate us very

well. But where the contractor has got all his own, and he owns it, it

is a different story. He can then say, we feel, to us: "That wasn't the

terms of the bidding, and I've got my own trucks, and I've always had

them, and that is what I am going to use."

MR. DAVIS: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to say a few words about

the two highway approaches to the North Shore, the Cassiar connector,

the Trans-Canada Highway, and north over the Second Narrows Bridge,

which I am told will cost of the order of $100 million to complete.

That is the big one. It has urgency in the sense that there have been

many accidents along that relatively short route. The lights should be

eliminated. It