Newfoundland and Labrador Hansard — Oral Questions — 17 May 2001 (44th General Assembly, 3rd Session, Vol. XLIV No. 28)
2001-05-17
Newfoundland and Labrador — Debates (Hansard)
May 17, 2001 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY
PROCEEDINGS Vol. XLIV No. 28
The House met at 1:30 p.m.
MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!
Before we begin our routine proceedings, the Chair would like to rule on a
couple of points of order and privilege that have been raised in the House in
recent days.
On April 5, the hon. the Government House Leader rose on a point of order
with respect to a comment made by the Leader of the Opposition, and also a point
of order generally respecting decorum in the House. The hon. the Government
House Leader stated that the Leader of the Opposition had, during Oral Questions
on April 5, alleged or suggested, that the hon. the Premier was less than honest
with his answers to a question. As the Leader of the Opposition knows, it is
unparliamentary to cast aspersions upon another member of the House. I would ask
the Leader of the Opposition to correct the record in this matter. I want to
refer the Leader of the Opposition to page 569 of Hansard, April 5. He may wish
to read his remarks, and the remarks of the Government House Leader on page 575,
before making a comment for the record.
On another aspect of the point of order raised by the hon. the Government
House Leader, he referred to the appropriateness of certain gestures in the
House. As I mentioned, after the House resumed following the Easter recess,
members should address the Chair when speaking in the House. Decorum in the
House would generally be much improved if members following the rules laid down
in Erskine May and Beauchesne . That is: members should address the
Chair when posing questions or comments to other members, or answering
questions, or speaking in debate, and that these comments, questions and
answers, should be phrased in the third person.
In the heat of debate, of course, as politicians, we naturally use our hands
and bodies to emphasize points. While the movement of hands may be distracting,
unless these gestures are, I guess, rude or obscene, then it would be difficult
for the Chair to rule such gestures out of order.
As well, on December 14, the hon. the Opposition House Leader rose on a point
regarding a ruling the Chair had made on the December 13. The hon. the member
was questioning whether the Chair had revisited a ruling previously made. What
actually happened was that the Chair was ruling on a point of order raised by
the Member for Bay of Islands when ruling there was no point of order. The
Member for Cape St. Francis then made some comments, after which the Chair said:
There is no point of order.
At that point, the Chair had not heard what the hon. Member for Cape St.
Francis had said, which was immediately preceding his statement that there was
no point of order. The Chair was simply
reiterating his previous comment. It was only after the point of privilege
was raised and taken under advisement that the Chair, upon reviewing Hansard,
became aware of the comments of the Member for Cape St. Francis, just before the
Chair reiterated that there was no point of order.
To sum up: the Chair, in ruling, after the point of privilege was raised,
that the hon. Member for Cape St. Francis had used unparliamentary language, was
referring to different and stronger language than when he made the point of
order.
On May 10, the hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy raised a point of order
about comments made by the hon. the Member for Harbour Main-Whitbourne,
concerning school trustees. It appears to the Chair that there is a difference
opinion would not establish a prima facie case of breach of privilege, and the
Chair so rules.
Again, on May 14, the hon. the Minister of Finance raised a point of order,
objecting to the use of a certain word by the Leader of the Opposition. The hon.
the Leader of the Opposition later made a statement clarifying his comments, and
the Chair is satisfied that this matter has been dealt with.
The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, just to response to your first ruling,
certainly in this House I do not challenge the Chair's ruling. If there were
any remarks made that could be perceived, and you have ruled on that, that cast
aspersions on the Premier, I immediately withdraw them.
I will say, based upon your other ruling, however, it appears now that we
have to adopt a hands-off approach in questioning the government.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
PREMIER GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, I rise to ask leave of the House to deal
with a particular matter. Myself and the Member for Port de Grave met yesterday
and today to discuss his particular circumstance and his plans for now and into
the future.
Based upon the fact that we have actually been honoured in this particular
Legislature -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
If I could just interrupt the hon. the Premier for a minute, the hon. the
Premier is asking leave to deal with a matter. Does the hon. the Premier have
leave?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave.
MR. SPEAKER: By leave.
PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Because of the fact that we have been honoured in this particular Legislature
to have the Member for Port de Grave here in this House of Assembly for almost
seventeen years now, giving exemplary and dedicated service to the people of
Newfoundland and Labrador, I think that we should, Mr. Speaker, before we begin
the proceedings today, cede the floor to the hon. member so that he can make a
statement to us in what is likely to be his last day in this particular
Legislature.
Before we do that I would like to, on the public record, commend Mr. Efford
for his outstanding service to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. I would
ask the House to give him leave to address (inaudible).
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Port de Grave.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Just a few remarks and a few moments to, as the Premier has already said,
explain why I am making this statement today and to bring to an end almost
seventeen years of work and commitment to the people of the District of Port de
Grave and the people of Newfoundland and Labrador.
What I want to do first is just look back on 1985, when I first ran. I
remember taking on an opponent from the opposite party, which I call Tory, out
in Port de Grave district. They had just opened an arena that year, in 1985, in
fact the month of the election, when they told me that I could not win. I said
to them, you just made your first mistake when you told me that I can't do
something.
I want to reference that very quickly because I want to say something to -
some of the members are new in the House and some have been here awhile. When I
campaigned on the doors of Port de Grave, I made a commitment, one commitment
only: that I would represent the people of Port de Grave district to the best of
my ability. I would make them no promises that I could not commit to and not
fulfill at that particular time but that I would be there whenever they called
upon me. That was the reason why I ran in 1985, and the good people of Port de
Grave district elected me by some 900 votes even though they opened a new arena
in the district that year. The next election of course speaks for itself, it was
2,800, and the next one was 3,500 and so on.
I remember the first time coming into the House of Assembly. There was a
major snowstorm - not many of us left around anymore from 1985, and a couple
prior. There was a major snowstorm that day and when I got to the House of
Assembly there was a CBC reporter waiting on the steps and he said: How did you
get into St. John's this morning? I said: I drove, I have to go to work. That
was my first time ever on the steps of Confederation Building. When I came in it
was my first time ever in the Confederation Building, so I had a lot to learn. I
remember that morning when we had our first caucus meeting, the same morning,
and the news media passed in a piece of paper and it went right to the leader.
The leader figured he had an interview but he said: Gee John, that's yours.
That was my first encounter with the press, and if you had paid me $10,000 after
I finished the interview to remember what I said, I could not remember one word
except that I had sore knees from letting my knees knock.
That time in the House of Assembly brought me the attention of what
government is all about, what the Legislature is all about, and serving on the
Opposition for four years gave me a good insight on the government's side but
also the role of the Opposition. I really learned a lot when I was on the
Opposition. I was aggressive. Brian Peckford called me the Tasmanian Devil. The
former Minister of Fisheries, the hon. Tom Rideout, called me the night crawler
and so on and on; but it was the thrust back and forth, the learning experience.
Then in 1989, being elected to government and being appointed Minister of
Social Services, there is no greater learning and more respect for people than I
got during that short term as Minister of Social Services. My only regret is
that I did not get another couple of years to fulfill some of the policy changes
because we often look down upon people who have less than ourselves and we do
not appreciate their circumstances and the way in which they live, but that
short term as Minister of Social Services really brought to my attention the
value of people, their lives, and how people have less than others.
Then on to the other things, the things that were good and bad. Yes, we all
come through some bad stuff and some things that happen that are not always the
celebration things but I have no regrets about my past sixteen years, even
though I went through some turmoil, some controversial things. I have been in
and out of Cabinet. I have had arguments, I have had disagreements but each and
every time I had those disagreements and those arguments I had one common goal,
to try to improve the lives in a small way, as every individual who comes to
this House does, to improve and better the lives of the people of this Province
which we all dearly love.
I have said many times. We have more resources in this Province per capita
than any other part of this country, and all of us, individually and
collectively, has a responsibility to ensure that that happens. That was the
reason why I have dearly loved the last sixteen years and would never say that I
wish I never would have come. I only wish I could have done more in my term of
office of Social Services, Transportation, and Minister of Fisheries for almost
two terms.
But all that being said, everything must come to an end and I am not going
out of here today with any malice in my mind whatsoever. I am going out with
fulfillment, some sadness, some emotion but a lot of satisfaction over the
years. I can only say to colleagues on both sides of the House - but
particularly on this side of the House because these are the people I have been
working with, and some have gone - one of the things that I was taught growing
up in the District of Port de Grave is: I would never do anything to hurt you.
If I could not do anything good, I would never do anything to hurt anyone, and
that is the simple policy under which I tried to operate.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. EFFORD: I said I wasn't going to do this today, and I am not. I
have to bring a little bit of lightness. One of the things they have always had
some humor around - and the Minister of Education has made many cracks about my
accent. The cartoonist in The Telegram has certainly done that. I don't
have an accent, and I don't know where they get that from.
This is one that is in today, "EFFORD'S MID-LIFE CWISIS. (SIGH) I'M
BORED...I'M NOT A BACKBENCHER...I'M TOO HIP TO WETIRE...I NEED TO GET OUT OF
THE HOUSE!" That is the thing that they see about John Efford for Port de
Grave. I don't know where they ever got the idea that I have an accent. I have
never had one. It is not true.
Again, the people of Port de Grave district voted me in and I want to say a
very, very special thank you to every man, woman and child in Port de Grave
district, in the whole district, from Georgetown down to Shearstown and then
from Port de Grave down to Bryants Cove, who even today called me and told me
whatever I decide to do, they will support me.
All that couldn't take place without my association, the people on my
association led by Roland Butler since 1985.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. EFFORD: All the people on the association have worked and have been
my strongest allies, and I have said that Roland has been my right hand and my
left hand. He has been all of that plus more, and all of the people who have
worked on the association in both districts, because you cannot do it by
yourself. You are only a part of the team that makes it happen.
To the people around Newfoundland and Labrador, the support that I have
there, again I want to say a very, very special thank you to all of those
people. They have put up with some of the fights we have had, they have put up
with some of the good times, but they have always come through and supported me
the best way that any man or any person could deserve.
To the new media, we have been friends over the years. We have had our good
time and our bad times, but I believe very strongly that a good relationship and
respect for the news media is crucial. They have their job to do, we have our
job to do, and I have always respected that. I don't think I have ever refused
an interview, nor do I ever intend to. I wouldn't go looking for one, but I
have kept a scrapbook since 1985. I have kept everything that has been written
about me, worldwide. It is amazing what is written. Even the threats on my life
I have in the scrapbook, the letters and all the other things. When I go back
through it, it brings back a lot of memories, and I suspect that over the years
I will have some time now to do it.
To the civil service, often we don't give them credit. We really don't
give them credit enough.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. EFFORD: I have had a good relationship with the civil servants in
each of the departments I have had, and all of the other departments that I have
been honoured to be able to work with and serve. I tell you, those people work,
and they are the backbone of this government or any government, but they never
get the credit and the thanks that they deserve. I want, myself personally, and
on behalf of everybody else, to say a special thank you.
I am getting to the end of my remarks; I don't want to take up too much
time of the House. To the staff who have put up with me: Joan Efford - and I
wouldn't hire any family members, as you know - who has been my secretary for
a long, long time, to Sonia, Tansy, Roland and Chanda, and all of the other
staff I have had over the years, to put up with me, they have to be exemplary
people, and they have been doing that.
To the staff I started out with, those who are still with me today, plus
those we have added on, that says something for a team working together. I only
hope that over the years, I have given you the respect that you deserve. Again,
a very special thank you.
Also, of course, my family - my wife is in the audience today. My kids are
not here because two are outside Newfoundland and one is out somewhere on the
Grand Banks fishing. I have put my job ahead of the whole of my family's
responsibilities. My wife has stood there and taken care of the family when I
have been out working as an MHA and minister, and going around the Province
doing whatever I had to do with my responsibilities. I could not have been
successful in politics without that. To her, I want to say a special thank you.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. EFFORD: In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I do want to say thank you to all
people on both sides of the House of Assembly for the support that I have gotten
over the years, and the thrust back and forth. Even though we have had some
things to say in the House of Assembly - and I am going to pass this along to a
person who I think deserves this, because he was with me in 1985 but he was not
on the same side, and I really badgered him, the hon. Rick Woodford.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. EFFORD: Thank you very much.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I want to respond to the hon. Member for Port de Grave, but before I do,
John, could you stand and show us your blue suspenders, please?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. E. BYRNE: I was first elected to the House in 1993, but it was not
the first time I saw John Efford. I recall, as a university student, sitting in
the old gallery upstairs on the ninth floor, coming in and watching Question
Period, and listening to former Premier Brian Peckford, and former Minister Ron
Dawe, and former Minister Tom Rideout, chant and jeer when Mr. Efford got up in
Question Period. Being from Conception Bay North, myself, my roots in Harbour
Grace, I always understood him and didn't know why anyone else didn't.
On a serious note, there have been many debates in this Legislature since I
have been here with the hon. member and former minister, and my comments today
are toward you in a non-partisan way. There can be no mistake when I say, on
behalf of our caucus certainly, that the valuable contribution that you
personally, and your family, have made to politics in Newfoundland and Labrador,
have been invaluable. In my view, rest assured that while you leave here I
suspect, as anything comes to an end, it is not easy. I understand that
personally myself. Rest assured; and I believe that you have left a legacy in
provincial politics, and I emphasize provincial politics because who knows what
tomorrow may bring, for any of us for that matter.
It can be said that there were many days here that many a frustration you
caused us, especially in a joking way when the roads money would come out to the
Works, Services and Transportation Minister, and someone would say: John, is
there any money for my district? No money for a Tory district, he would say. But
that was in jest. That was not true.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. E. BYRNE: No, hold on! While someone said that was true, I know that
my colleague from Baie Verte can stand and say it was not.
I am not going to take up much more time in the House. I want to say I
applaud the contribution that you have personally made to public life in
Newfoundland and Labrador. I believe that the place we call home in this
Province has been better served and is a lot better as a result of it. I wish
you well. Good luck, John.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I am pleased to have a few words to say on the resignation of the Member for
Port de Grave. First of all, let me say that it is a tribute to our education
system that John Efford was able to go through school and still keep his very
unique manner of speech and bring it right through adulthood -
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. HARRIS: - and that we did not attempt to suppress such a wonderful
manner of speech.
I, too, have had differences with the Member for Port de Grave in this House.
I think from the very first month I came here, in fact. I have always recognized
him as a formidable opponent, a person who is very, very capable of handling any
topic in any debate. At one time he was the most partisan of members, but I have
noticed of late, he has mellowed a little bit. He even talks to me in public
(inaudible).
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. HARRIS: Maybe it is a sign of my political maturity. I don't know.
I will say that the Member for Port de Grave has certainly added a great deal
to the political life in the Province and he is deservedly popular throughout
Newfoundland and Labrador as a politician and as a person. I know the sacrifice
he has made for himself, for his family, and I want to acknowledge that on
behalf of him and his wife, Madonna, and wish him well for the future. I do not
think that we have seen or heard the last of John Efford in political life, or
in the life of the Province in general.
I do want to say that the people of this Province do appreciate, despite all
of the anti-political comments that are made, the contribution that people such
as John Efford have made to politics in the Province, and I want to thank him
for it.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, if I may, to conclude, I would like to say thank you, for all
hon. members, for putting aside our normal rules; because I believe we all
recognize that when we operate in this most non-partisan fashion we sometimes do
some of our best work.
It is clear, I think, with the record that John Efford has had as a member
and a minister of the Crown in Newfoundland and Labrador, that I do appreciate,
and I know he appreciated, the opportunity to be given some time to say and
speak, as he did today, about his experiences and why he was here and why we are
all here.
I know one thing, Mr. Speaker. I can say to the Leader of the Opposition,
that while he might not have had them convinced about his partisanship, he had
this crowd over here convinced.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
PREMIER GRIMES: Maybe he was doing a few little things with you fellows
on the side that we did not know about. Everybody over here was convinced.
I do believe, Mr. Speaker, again, as I say, in terms of congratulating Mr.
Efford on his career in politics and in public life, and in his comments today,
that they speak for themselves, and that he captured the very essence of what it
takes to come here in the first place, and the elements of support that any one
of us would need from workers who support us, and family, because otherwise
there would nobody standing in this Legislature at any time.
I really do sincerely, as has already been expressed on behalf of everybody,
wish John all the very best.
I am with the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi. I do not think that we have
seen anywhere close to the last of John Efford, but I know that he is going on
to another
chapter in his life. We certainly appreciate what he has done in this
particular Legislature, in this particular part of his life, and we do sincerely
wish him all the best and thank him for his years of service, exemplary service,
to Newfoundland and Labrador once again.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
Statements by Members
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.
MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I rise and ask for the indulgence of the House.
This is a very significant event. I rise today to extend special birthday
greetings to John Pritchett of Gambo. Mr. Pritchett will celebrate his 102 nd
birthday on June 12.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. LUSH: I attended his 100 th birthday and look forward to
attending his 102 nd birthday.
Mr. Pritchett was born in Gambo on June 12, 1899. Over the duration of his
life, he has operated three sawmills: one in Lew Cove, Trinity-Bonavista Bay,
and two others in Traverse Brook in the Gambo-Hare Bay Area.
I am pleased to inform the House that Mr. Pritchett continues to be in good
health. In fact, he is still able to read without the use of eyeglasses. If you
were in Gambo, you would see him walking practically every day to the grocery
store to pick up his groceries. He has an excellent memory and his hobbies
include reading and listening to the radio. Mr. Pritchett currently resides in
Gambo with his son Allan.
Mr. Speaker, I ask the House to join with me in wishing Mr. Pritchett a happy
102 nd birthday.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
Statements by Ministers
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MS FOOTE: Mr. Speaker, I rise today to inform my hon. colleagues of the
Department of Education's assessment resource that is part of a comprehensive
program of initiatives to improve literacy levels in our Province.
The Department of Education's comprehensive strategy to improve literacy
and numeracy, beginning in the primary grades, is well underway.
All four Atlantic Provinces have identified higher literacy levels as one of
their goals and through the Atlantic Provinces Education Foundation, the four
provinces developed a regional literacy strategy. One outcome of this strategy
is a reading assessment resource, which will be implemented by all four
provinces in the next school year. We have invested nearly $120,000 in this
Province to ensure a copy of this resource is distributed to every school in
Newfoundland and Labrador with primary classrooms.
In the resource package, there are eighty high-quality books that have been
carefully selected to represent a range of text difficulty. Both fiction and
information texts are included. At any time during the year, the teacher,
together with the student, can select a text to assess a child's reading
progress.
The assessment resource will help teachers address the needs of each child.
If the teacher observes particular difficulties for any one student, then
appropriate planning can be done to help overcome these difficulties. The hope
is that by identifying reading difficulties at an early stage in the child's
reading development, we can avoid the continuation of reading problems as they
advance through the K-12 system.
Teachers will also be able to use the resource to provide information to
parents. Based on the results of the assessment, teachers will be able to
suggest appropriate reading selections for parents to read with their children,
suggest strategies for helping the children learn to read, and provide
appropriate activities for parents to use at home.
Mr. Speaker, we remain committed to our goal of improving this Province's
literacy levels and will continue to focus on innovative programs and
strategies, such as this one, to accomplish that very important goal.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Harbour Main-Whitbourne.
MR. HEDDERSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I thank the minister for a copy of her Ministerial Statement, prior to coming
in here today. Certainly, I would join with the minister in anything that would
help to improve literacy, especially in the primary grades. It is very, very
crucial, at that stage in the student's life, that it be identified and
helped.
The resource is going in next year, but a little word of caution, and that
is: When we put this on the classroom teachers, let's hope that the time will
be there to deal with this sort thing. Because teachers, I say to the minister,
certainly have a tremendous workload and, I hope, provision for good in-service,
good professional development, good class sizes, so this assessment tool can be
used to its utmost. In saying that, again, we hope that this will help in
dealing with some of the very obvious problems of literacy in the primary
grades.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.
MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
We, too, commend this initiative by the minister, because reading and
understanding what we read is certainly fundamental to all future learning. It
has to happen at an early age in order for it to be most effective.
I guess, Mr. Speaker, we have all heard stories about young people who,
through their school years and later in post-secondary education, experience
difficulties with their studies. It has been directly linked back to the
difficulties in learning and comprehending, so it is important, as I said, to
any future learning that takes place -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. member's time is up.
MR. COLLINS: By leave, Mr. Speaker, just to sum up?
MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?
AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.
MR. SPEAKER: By leave.
MR. COLLINS: Again, Mr. Speaker, I would just like to say that this is an
important step. I am sure that steps such as this, while a beginning, will
certainly go a long way to helping improve the literacy rate in this Province.
Thank you.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Youth Services and Post-Secondary
Education.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MS KELLY: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise before the House today to
inform hon. members about a study being released by my Department of Youth
Services and Post-Secondary Education. It is called: CareerSearch 2001,
Employment Experiences and Earnings of 1998 Graduates.
The study consists of two documents, one based on the experiences of Memorial
University of Newfoundland graduates, and one on graduates of the College of the
North Atlantic and private colleges.
These reports are the result of surveys conducted with graduates
approximately one year after they have completed their programs.
This is a follow-up to a similar study released in 1999, and provides a
wealth of detailed program-level information on graduate employment, earnings,
out-migration, student loans and length of job search. These reports also
describe how graduates evaluated the investment they made in their programs.
Mr. Speaker, the type of labour market information contained in the
CareerSearch documents is highly beneficial for a number of different groups and
individuals. It will help students and parents with career planning by giving
them specific information about the experiences of post-secondary graduates.
With the many programs and options that are available to our young people, these
publications are sure to be invaluable in making important career decisions.
CareerSearch will be useful for post-secondary educators and career
counselors as they assist young people in making informed decisions about
options for post-secondary education. It will also help program planners to
identify programs that produce graduates with the skills required by employers
in today's dynamic labour market.
These documents are being distributed to all high schools across our
Province, as well as post-secondary institutions, Human Resource Development
Canada offices and Human Resources and Employment offices and Career Information
Resource Centres and other agencies with a need for quality labour market
information for career planning. In addition, my department is planning an
awareness campaign in the fall to foster use of the information in CareerSearch.
This document is also available to all interested parties on the government web
site at www.gov.nl.ca
Mr. Speaker, these CareerSearch reports highlight government's commitment
to accountability in the post-secondary education system in our Province. It
also fits in well with my department's focus on young people by providing them
with pertinent information on which to base sound decisions. CareerSearch will
also help to ensure that students choose the right program for them, so that
they do not take on the unnecessary debt with programs that may not be what they
are looking for.
While there are many other factors that need to be taken into consideration
when young people are planning their futures, I am confident that many youth and
others will find CareerSearch 2001 to be an excellent resource on graduate
outcomes that will assist with career planning.
I will be pleased to table this document for hon. members in the House of
Assembly this afternoon.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Placentia & St. Mary's.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. MANNING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I would like to thank the minister for forwarding me a copy of her statement
before the House opened. We, on this side of the House, also believe that career
counseling is very important, especially to the many young people who move on to
post-secondary education in the Province and find that any level of education
they attain comes, many times, with a major debt at the end of the day and, in
some cases, they find afterwards, when they move into their work life, that the
career they had chosen was not the one for them. Therefore, they end up with a
large amount of debt. So, anything that comes forward with any amount of
information that will assist those in career counseling, assist students, assist
those who help the students, is something that certainly we look forward to
seeing also.
Career counseling is something, we believe, that the government needs to take
some time to look at. I had an experience in my own district not too long ago
where I had a young girl who was on her third course at a college here in St.
John's and had a debt that amounted to somewhere around $40,000, and she did
not have one employable skill because she did not get to finish the couple of
courses that she had half completed. Basically, it came down to a problem of
career counseling.
Certainly, we believe that anything that can do that - and hopefully these
reports will give us some insight into the concerns that are out there, some
insight into the employment opportunities that are out there that people can
attain. We hope this research that was carried out and released today will go a
long way in improving the career counseling of students here in the Province.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
These should prove to be useful documents. I know, Mr. Speaker, looking at
the Post-Secondary Indicators '99, right after the debacle of the Career
Academy demise and the debate in the Province on private versus public
post-secondary education, it was interesting to note that despite the high cost,
significantly higher debt load and higher default rate on student loads, it was
the private college students who had the lowest incomes of people and less
success in getting jobs.
I hope that we do not find similar discrepancies through evaluating this
measure here, and I would have liked to have seen the comparisons perhaps a
little bit closer together so that you could see the public and private programs
and the university programs linked together so students could see what the
actual outcomes are. I think the official documents (inaudible) -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. member's time is up.
MR. HARRIS: - so students have the information so that they could make
their decisions.
Oral Questions
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
My questions today are for the Minister of Works, Services and
Transportation.
Two months ago, on March 1, the government awarded its standing offer
agreement for microcomputers. Computer types were divided into eight different
categories. Four of them called select, and the other four called standard. A
local computer company, Sona Computers Inc., was awarded the standard computers
contract. Will the minister confirm that since that contract was awarded, only
two of these locally manufactured computers were purchased by government
departments, but a significant number of computers have been purchased by
government that are American made select products purchased from xwave?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, I do not have a detailed list. I do not go
through my department to find out which people purchase goods from this agency
or that agency. I do not have a list of computers that were bought, but I can
provide it for the hon. member.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Now the minister should be aware. He received the same e-mail I received with
respect to this very important matter that is before government. This government
has known for years that American products and Newfoundland and Labrador
products have identical specifications, identical technical service
certifications and identical warranty requirements. The difference is cost.
Will the minister confirm that had government purchased the locally-made
computers instead of the American-made computers it would have achieved average
savings of somewhere between 14 per cent and 20 per cent, while at the same time
creating more employment for a locally-based company and employing more people
in Newfoundland and Labrador?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. BARRETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
As I indicated to the hon. member, I do not have a list of the computers that
were purchased. If there was a requirement that we purchase Newfoundland goods,
we would purchase Newfoundland goods if they were cheaper. There is no doubt
about it. If they were more expensive then we would have to abide by the Public
Tender Act.
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
MR. E. BYRNE: Well, let's see. The minister does not want to get into
the issue. Let me ask him this question: Will he confirm that government's
average annual expenditures on computers is in the range between $12 million and
$20 million, and that purchasing those computers from the U.S. instead of local
manufacturers waste somewhere between $1.4 million and $2 million of taxpayers
scarce money? Could the minister confirm that?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
AN HON. MEMBER: Tell us what bracket creep is.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Bracket creep, as the member asked, is a three year old
issue, and I would be happy to talk to you about it at another point, if you
would like to.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, with respect to the question, government
maintains a standing offer to facilitate both tendering and purchasing of
computers, and there are two types - one, as the member pointed out. There is
the select group and the standard, which is a no name group. What has happened,
traditionally, is that there is a difference in the price range. I think it
ranges from $78 to $128, but it is not only the price. I think the member
opposite knows that whenever you are purchasing a piece of equipment the price
is a very important component, but there are also other factors that are
considered, like quality, for example, servicing and the support components
necessary for the computers.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Finance,
then - she has opened up the question which I asked before. These products which
she refers to, American made products and the Newfoundland manufactured
products, have the identical specifications, have the identical technical
service certifications, and the identical warranty requirements.
Therefore, based on your answer, would you stand to your feet and tell us
why, then, if those are equal, all those things you just said were requirements,
why is it that you are purchasing goods and services from outside of this
Province on a standing offer?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, we believe in the recommendations and in the advice that we
receive from the people in the public sector who are using these computers, and
that is one of the reasons why we have, in some cases, used others instead of
the select group. Mr. Speaker, that decision has been based on the input we have
received based on the performance as it relates to servicing, also based on some
quality issues. People who are using these computers on a day-to-day basis for
their work, I think it is only right and just that we should take their advice
into consideration so that we are able to provide the best service to the people
of the Province.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. E. BYRNE: I say to the Minister of Finance, it is not the quality of
locally manufactured goods and services that is the problem. It is not the
public service or the bureaucrats that are the problem. You received the same
piece of information on this issue as I did.
I would like to ask this question, to either the minister responsible for the
Public Tender Act, which is the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation,
or the Minister of Finance: Are the ministers aware, Mr. Speaker, that the local
manufacturer that they are overlooking is on the Top 100 list of both Microsoft
and Intel for computer systems integrators and value-added resellers in all of
North America? Are the ministers aware that this company is selling successfully
to the Department of National Defense, Memorial University, Health Canada, and
other federal departments and agencies? Are they aware that they just received a
$12 million contract from Industry Canada? Why is your own government, in your
own advertising with manufacturing right here, made here first, why is it that
you are supporting a company with goods and services made outside this Province,
when you have the opportunity to support a locally, manufactured right here
company, to provide more jobs for Newfoundlanders and Labradorians?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury
Board.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, this isn't about blaming the public
sector, this is about, I believe, acknowledging and valuing their advice to us.
What the member opposite is trying to get across is that somehow we are doing
something wrong. Mr. Speaker, we are not doing anything wrong. We have the
ability to choose from one or the other. I do not make the decision. My
colleague does not make the decision. What we have done is take the advice of
our government officials who have come to us and said: The price might be lower
but the support costs would be higher. So we try to factor in the whole
component.
Mr. Speaker, the practice of using two classes of computers is consistent
with the government, as it is with other governments. Mr. Speaker, in this case
we have taken the advice of our officials and we have factored in all the
components. In no way have we slighted the group to which he refers. In fact,
that group has been considered as well as others, and we have taken the advice
of the officials who use these computers on a day-to-day basis. I am asking the
member opposite: Should we disregard the advice of the public sector and service
on this issue? Should we, Mr. Speaker?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, I have taken the opportunity, unlike the
ministers, and ministers for government, to speak to the general manager of this
company.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. E. BYRNE: Oh, I spoke to him as early as today.
I asked the question that he asked to you, Minster of Finance, and to you
minister, and to you Premier, and every other minister, in his letter to all of
you: Why is it that our products and services are not acceptable to the
Government of Newfoundland and Labrador but they are acceptable to the rest of
the country?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. BARRETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I want to indicate to the hon. Leader of the Opposition that I have, at no
time, received a letter from the man you are talking about; never received a
letter. I have not received a letter. If I had received a letter from this man I
would have responded to his letter. I have not received a letter.
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I suggest to the minister that he check his e-mail or, as my colleague has
said, maybe he is using the wrong computer, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. E. BYRNE: I would like to ask him this question. This is a serious
issue. This is a very serious issue. Will the minister now, today, commit to get
to the bottom of what is going on here? This company has been in operation for
over a decade. They have been dealing with officials of government for over a
decade. They are a sound, reputable company with a comparable product, equal
price, equal service, equal warranty. The only thing that is not equal is the
treatment that you are giving them.
Will you provide a commitment today, minister, that before Tuesday rings
around you will get to the bottom of this and what has gone on here? Won't you
admit today that there is something terribly wrong when government is paying
anywhere from 14 per cent to 20 per cent more for products than it has to? Is
that something that concerns the minister or is this Province so (inaudible)
with money -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MR. E. BYRNE: - that we do not have to be concerned about this at all?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury
Board.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, what we will commit to do is continue to
respect the views of the public service, continue to make decisions based on
compromise, and actually take their advice on what they believe is the best
machine for the work that they do. That is what we will commit to do and
continue to do, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. E. BYRNE: This issue is about supporting where price is equal, where
a warranty is equal, where certifications are equal or all things are equal,
supporting a locally based company. Now, in your own government's advertising
you talk about supporting, Manufactured Right Here. I would like to ask the
minister again: Will she, right here, or will the Minister of Finance right
here, commit to do an investigation on this matter and report back to the House
or to the people of the Province on what has happened?
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury
Board.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, we will commit to do what we know is in the
best interest of our public sector. We have said time and time again that
government is doing, in this case, what other governments right across the
country are doing. What we are doing is taking their advice. It is within our
own guidelines. We are doing what is appropriate. We have done it traditionally,
and we will take their advice based on what they believe is the best quality,
the best service, and the best support for the machines that they use in their
day-to-day work in serving the people of this Province.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, if the government has that kind of money maybe I can point out a
couple of examples where some compassion can be shown.
My question is to the Minister of Human Resources and Employment. Mr.
Speaker, I would like to ask the minister what action his department is taking
to collect monies that he deems repayable because of overpayments by social
services in the past? Is he guided by a statute of limitations or some
compassion in trying to collect those outstanding financial accounts?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Human Resources and Employment.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SMITH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I thank the hon. member for his question. Indeed, from time to time it does
come to our attention that there have been situations where there have been
overpayment and at those points in time our department and my officials, as it
is incumbent upon us as stewards of the treasury and the tax dollars of the
people of this Province, take whatever action we deem necessary to try to
recover where possible.
The hon. member seems to suggest in his statement that we are out on some
sort of a witch hunt and really out to do in or in somehow adversely affect the
people of the Province. Indeed, Mr. Speaker, I suggest to you, and to the people
of this House, that what we doing is being responsible stewards and trying to
deal responsibly with an issue that is there. We just cannot ignore it. We have
to try to move where we can to recover what is owing to the people of this
Province.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Bonavista South.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, I am fully aware that government departments
make every effort possible to collect or retrieve monies that they deem payable
to the public treasury. I understand that people must be responsible, the
minister's department being no exception.
I ask the minister: Is he showing any degree of compassion and understanding
in disallowing the renewal of driver's licences to senior citizens in this
Province who live on the basic seniors' allowance, denying them their licence
renewal for monies that were needed to provide for basic necessities who had to
obtain funding through social services in excess of ten years ago?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Human Resources and Employment.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SMITH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Indeed, I think it is really unfortunate. I really find it somewhat
discouraging. I am disappointed with the antics of the hon. member opposite.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MR. E. BYRNE: It is not about how you feel, boy. It is what you are doing
to them. That is what it is all about!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. the Minister of Human Resources and Employment.
MR. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, again, as I indicated to the hon. members
opposite some days ago, if they don't start to begin listening then they - I
don't know what they bother to ask questions because they certainly are not
interested in the answers.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, as I said to the hon. member, if there are cases
there that he is aware of, individual cases - and obviously he seems to be
alluding here today in his question that there is an individual case that he is
aware of - then I would say to him, as I said to all hon. members, bring them to
my attention. I will certainly look into it, but I am certainly not in a
position here in this House, neither am I prepared to speak to individual cases
here in this House.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South, final
supplementary.
MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, obviously the minister is not aware of
policies within his own department.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MR. FITZGERALD: An example minister: Are you showing any compassion and
understanding by refusing to allow a driver's licence to be issued to a senior
widow whose husband has been deceased for over ten years? She has now been told
that the money accessed by her husband, through your department, must be paid by
her before her driver's licence can be issued this year.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Human Resources and Employment.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I would say what we are witnessing here today,
and the people in this House and the people of this Province, is an all-time low
on behalf of the Opposition in this House of Assembly.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I think it is despicable that we would be raising
this sort of issue in the House. If the hon. member knows of an instance like
this, I am disappointed and discouraged that he would not bring it to my
attention and think that he could not work with me on behalf of a constituent in
his district.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. the Member for Harbour Main-Whitbourne.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. HEDDERSON: Mr. Speaker, my questions today are for the Minister of
Education. Accessability within the school system is a very important -
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. the Member for Harbour Main-Whitbourne.
MR. HEDDERSON: Mr. Speaker, I met recently with the provincial Parents
Network for Equal Rights in Education. They have numerous issues relating to the
education of children, with learning, emotional and physical disabilities. Don't
think that they have had a proper opportunity or structure to communicate those
concerns to the minister and to have them addressed. Will the minister look at
the consultative and advisory structures in the Department of Education, and
make sure there is an adequate process for consulting directly with these
groups?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MS FOOTE: Mr. Speaker, we have done just that. In fact, we have put in
place an advisory committee which consists of representation from all of the
advocacy groups, as well as all of the stakeholders in education. This is the
first time this has ever happened. In fact, I put the process in place because I
wanted to ensure that there was an avenue for parents with children with
challenging needs to have input into the decisions that are made by the
department. To the best of my knowledge, this is working very well. I checked
with my deputy who is chairing this committee. The meetings are being held on a
regular basis. I understand that they, in fact, are looking at having them four
times a year. Unfortunately, some groups have chosen not to participate and have
decided not to get involved with the committee.
This is an avenue for them. The agenda is not decided by the Department of
Education. It is decided by the participants of the advisory committee, where
they can bring forward agenda items and can have their issues addressed.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Harbour
Main-Whitbourne.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. HEDDERSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I say to the minister, I know these groups have had the opportunity to sit
with other interest groups on the minister's advisory council but they have
withdrawn from that council because they feel their particular concerns are
being lost amongst all the other issues that are brought to the council. These
parents represent a special population of children with unique needs.
I ask the minister: Will you make provision to allow this group, certainly
other groups and individuals, easier access to her department so she can listen
directly to the needs of these parents and their children?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MS FOOTE: Mr. Speaker, access is never a question when it comes to
accessing people within my department, or the minister. Let me say that this
committee was put in place to do just that, to provide access for these parents.
I have to say that the majority of the membership of the committee are in fact
parents of children with challenging needs. To suggest that there is not the
opportunity, or that their concerns are being lost, surprises me, because
clearly, parents are still involved with this advisory group. They are there and
I am sure they would never allow the concerns of other parents with children
with disabilities, not to be heard. So I am really disappointed to hear this,
Mr. Speaker. I can tell you, other than the two groups that have chosen to
withdraw, the committee is working very well. Again, it goes back to every
member on that committee having an opportunity to decide on the agenda, and to
ensure that the needs and concerns of children with challenging needs are heard
and brought to the intention of the department and to the minister.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the Member for Harbour
Main-Whitbourne.
MR. HEDDERSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Again, I say to the minister, these parents certainly have great concerns
For example, will the minister consider appointing a representative - perhaps
from this group - to the school construction committee so that their concerns
can be heard when plans are being developed for new school construction and
renovations to other schools? This sort of thing is what they want direct access
this Province.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
appreciate that. What we will ensure is that the advisory committee that is in
place has every input that they need to have in terms of school construction and
ensuring that the schools are accessible. In fact, every school that is being
built today is accessible. We know that there are schools out there that are
not. We have to look at that and see what we need to do to try and respond to
the needs and concerns of our children.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
My question is for the Premier and concerns the export of bulk water. In
1993, the governments of Canada, Mexico and the United States said, in a joint
statement, that unless water, in any form, has entered into commerce and become
a good or product, it is not covered by the provisions of any trade agreement,
including the NAFTA; and that nothing in the NAFTA would oblige any NAFTA party
to either exploit its water for commercial use, or to begin exporting water in
any form. Will the Premier acknowledge that the obvious and compelling corollary
to that statement is that if this Province and this country exports bulk water,
as the Premier advances, that it will come therefore under the NAFTA agreement
and become a good or trade? This is not a spin. This, in fact, is a proper
reading of the NAFTA agreement and that statement by Canada and the United
States. Will the Premier acknowledge that, Mr. Speaker?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
No, I will not acknowledge that. I recognize that is the position of the New
Democratic Party. I recognize it is a position of certain lobby groups and
interest groups within the country. In Newfoundland and Labrador, if he would
think back, we did have constitutional experts and consultants who visited this
Province and stated to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, that is not the
conclusion that should be drawn from that statement, and the exact opposite is
true.
Mr. Speaker, what we have said and what we have committed to in Newfoundland
and Labrador is that we will gather all of the information with respect to the
legal aspects, the trade aspects, the financial aspects and the environmental
aspects. When we are in a position to make sure that the people of Newfoundland
and Labrador can have a full discussion with factual information, instead of the
kind of spin that the hon. member just put on it, then we will have the debate
in Newfoundland and Labrador.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The spin was put on by this government, as well, when they joined in the
National Accord and brought legislation to this House, urged by the then
Minister of Environment, to ban the export of bulk water.
Will the Premier respond to the questions placed on the Order Paper by me,
next week, and start his process of public discussion by tabling any legal
opinions that he has, any documents that he has, any
interpretations that he
has, on the floor of this House? If he cannot do it this afternoon, to make them
public early next week so that we can all look at what (inaudible) and make our
own opinions?
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. the Premier.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
That is exactly the full intention of this government: to have all of the
relevant and necessary information available to every single Newfoundlander and
Labradorian who has an interest in the issue so that they can be fully informed,
we can all be fully informed, and nobody can put a particular spin on a very
important issue. It will be dealt with on the basis of fact, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Baie Verte.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SHELLEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
My questions today are for the Minister of Work, Services and Transportation.
Last year, there were many concerns raised about the Apollo on the run
now between St. Barbe and Blanc-Sablon. On May 2, I was surprised to listen to
the Member for Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair when she blamed the federal
government for not stepping up to the plate as far as the costs for
Blanc-Sablon.
Mr. Speaker, I would like for the minister to tell the House today, and to
tell his colleague and set her straight, that in fact your department was told
that if there were more expenses incurred with the Blanc-Sablon docking
facility, that your government, the government of this Province, would be
responsible for those costs. Is that right, Minister?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.
MR. BARRETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I am glad that the hon. member asked this specific question because I just
did a tour of the Labrador Coast and talked to a lot of the people in a lot of
the communities along the Labrador Coast. Wherever I went in Labrador, in the
communities on the Labrador Coast, people were coming up to me and saying: Isn't
that a fantastic job that you have done on the ferry, the great ferry that we
have running between Blanc-Sablon and St. Barbe. So, no, there is no problem
with that particular ferry and we are pleased with the performance of that
ferry. There are some improvements to be made to the Blanc-Sablon terminal.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
Question Period has ended.
Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Labour.
MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. the Minister of Labour.
MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I am pleased today to present to this House two reports: one entitled, the
Workplace Health Safety and Compensation Review Division Annual Report; and the
other one, the 2000 Annual Report of the Workplace Health Safety and
Compensation Commission.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.
MR. LANGDON: Mr. Speaker, I would like to present the 1999-2000 Annual
Report of the Pippy Park Commission.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.
MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the Report of Public Tender Act
Exemptions for April, 2001.
MR. REID: On a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture, on a
point of privilege.
MR. REID: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
As a result of some remarks made in questions to me by the Member for
Ferryland yesterday, my integrity seems to have been called into question
outside the House of Assembly. In his question, he made a couple of points. One
was relating to the fact that I did something for the people of Twillingate, the
Twillingate fish plant, that I did not do for the people of Bay Bulls and the
Bay Bulls fish plant. The other was that the request to transfer the licence
from Bay Bulls to Baie Verte had not been advertised.
AN HON. MEMBER: Baie Verte?
MR. REID: To Baie Verte - had not been advertised.
Mr. Speaker, on those two issues, the member opposite certainly misled the
House. The fact of the matter is, I could not do much for the community of Bay
Bulls with regard to the licence when the licence was transferred back in 1999.
The other point, the point that it was not advertised, well, Mr. Speaker, I
will table two of the newspaper ads that were advertised at the time: one in The
Western Star and one in The Telegram .
Mr. Speaker, because there seems to be some kind of debate out there that I
transferred that licence in February of this year, I would like to also table a
letter dated June 18, 1999, when that licence was transferred to Baie Verte.
I would also like to table, Mr. Speaker, copies of the licences for 1999,
2000, and 2001.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader, to the point of
privilege.
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
First of all, it is not a point of privilege on statements made outside the
House, but I would like to clarify a few points, Mr. Speaker.
Number one, I never did say when it was transferred. I never made no
reference whatsoever. Number two, I said it was done after the previous minister
gave a commitment that it would not be done without consultation. I said, a
licence was allowed to remain in Twillingate and the one in Bay Bulls would
allowed to be transferred. I made no reference to the current minister in any
way to affect his credibility whatsoever, and the public record of my statements
will clearly show that, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture is speaking to the point
of privilege. I will allow him one more submission.
MR. REID: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman did say in the House yesterday
that the request for transfer was not advertised. It was. He also made reference
to the fact that I did not do something for Bay Bulls. That licence was gone
three years prior to the time that I took office, so there was not much that I
could do with that licence at that time. It had already gone to Baie Verte.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I will hear the hon. the Opposition House Leader, and then the Chair will
reserve the -
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I would like to set the record straight. I did not say it was not advertised,
in this House or anywhere else. I asked him: Where was it advertised? It was not
done after the previous minister gave a commitment. It was not advertised. It
was moved after the commitment, without this being done. I am fully aware it was
advertised previous to that, but not after the commitment.
I would like to ask: Where did they advertise it since the commitment? I have
yet to see it.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The Chair will just take the point raised by the hon. minister under
advisement and report back to the House.
Petitions
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. Barbe.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. YOUNG: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I am presented a petition signed by nearly 300 residents of Cow Head on the
Northern Peninsula. I would like to read the prayer of the petition in its
proper form.
To the hon. House of Assembly of Newfoundland in the legislative session
convened.
The petition of the undersigned residents of Cow Head.
WHEREAS the people of Cow Head are concerned about the future of their
community; and
WHEREAS the people in the area are desperate for jobs and local efforts to
create jobs are being ignored by government agencies; and
WHEREAS the people in the community are concerned by government neglect and
inaction;
WHEREFORE your petitioners urge the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador
to take immediate action to ensure the survival of the community by developing a
plan to create employment opportunities in Cow Head.
And as duty bound your petitioners will ever pray.
Mr. Speaker, once again the people of the Northern Peninsula are crying for
help. They do not understand why the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador has
turned its back on them. The community of Cow Head was once a prosperous town.
The waters of the shores were rich with cod. Yes, the cod has been replaced with
other species but Cow Head has not been allowed to adapt to the new environment.
Mr. Speaker, today Cow Head has only about half the population it did just a
few short years ago. In Cow Head today you do not see many young families. The
population is an aging population. For Cow Head to be in this situation you
would think that the waters that wash its shores were deplete of resources that
once made it prosperous, but this is not the case. The waters are full of other
species of fish, other than cod. Yet residents of Cow Head must sit idly by and
watch the only hope they have of securing their future being trucked away.
Mr. Speaker, the government is managing the fishery in such a way that it
leaves the fish merchants with more control than they ever had, and these
merchants seize the opportunity to shape the fishing industry to best serve
themselves. Who had input when core plants became policy or when there was a
deadline to get a shrimp processing license? Was it government's policy at the
time to protect the interest of communities like Cow Head or did they
deliberately exclude communities like Cow Head?
Mr. Speaker, the residents of Cow Head are asking to be considered.
Unemployment in Cow Head is at a crisis level. People are desperate for jobs.
Mr. Speaker, what the people of Cow Head would like to know is, will government
come to their aid and develop a plan to create employment in this economically
depressed community?
Thank you.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.
MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, today I rise to present a petition on behalf of a number of
constituents of the Bauline Line area and the general area of Bauline itself.
The prayer of the petition is as follows:
To the hon. House of Assembly of Newfoundland, in legislative session
convened.
The petition of the undersigned residents of Bauline Line.
WHEREAS the 5.2 kilometers of Bauline Line which is in deplorable condition;
and
WHEREAS the residents have been waiting patiently for pavement and upgrading
for over twenty years; and
WHEREAS the condition of the road is a safety issue for school buses
traveling over this
section of road;
WHEREFORE your petitioners urge the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador
to take immediate action to upgrade this
section of road to what taxpayers can
reasonably expect to be available to them and to include in this year's
capital works budget the required amount of money to pave this 5.2 kilometers of
the Bauline Line.
As in duty bound, you petitioners will ever pray.
Mr. Speaker, this
section of road, this 5.2 kilometers of dirt road off the
Bauline Line, is really, generally speaking, a part of the Marine Drive, and a
lot of tourists travel that area. Now the buses that normally do the tours
refuse to go over that
section of road. It is muddy, it is soft in the spring of
the year, potholes all year long, Mr. Speaker. Over the past number of years,
Mr. Speaker, we have been trying to get them to even grade the road, the
Department of Works, Services and Transportation, to grade the road, to put a
bit of gravel on it. They go down now with a grader, Mr. Speaker, and they are
grading over rocks.
This morning I had a meeting with the -
MR. REID: What are you talking about?
MR. J. BYRNE: The Bauline Line, 5 kilometres of dirt road, I say to the
Minister of Fisheries.
MR. REID: Is there anyone living on it?
MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, there are people living on it.
I had a meeting with the Member for Conception Bay East & Bell Island;
myself and people who live on that road, Mr. Speaker. Technically speaking, they
do not live on the road. They live next to the road, I say to the Minister of
Fisheries. Myself and the Member for Conception Bay East & Bell Island met
this morning with a number of residents, and they have been trying for years and
years.
I have a number of letters that have been sent to the various ministers; from
the assistant Principal of Beachy Cove Elementary School, from the bus drivers,
from the operators of the postal vehicles, people living on the road - this goes
back to 1986. I have copies of letters here back to 1986, and before, and every
minister since that time has been contacted by those individuals. Personally, I
have had meetings with every minister since 1993 -
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, back to the Moores government.
Since 1993, when I was elected, I have had meetings with every Minister of
Works, Services and Transportation. It has always been top of the list in my
district to get it done but it never got any funding. This past year I managed
to squeeze out of the government a couple of hundred-thousand dollars for Torbay
Road, the intersection of Marine Drive, Convent Lane, and Torbay Road around
Holy Trinity School. It is much appreciated, but, Mr. Speaker, these people
living on that road - and there are a good number of them let me tell you that.
It is long overdue to have this work done. I think when you look at the budget
that is -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. member's time is up.
MR. J. BYRNE: By leave? Just in conclusion, Mr. Speaker.
I don't want to speak for the Member for Conception Bay East & Bell
Island, but he supports this and we are trying to get this work done as soon as
we possibly can. I understand there is going to be about a kilometre of pavement
done this year, but there is 5.2 kilometres overall. We need that and the people
in the area deserve it.
Thank you.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.
MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I have a petition today on the bulk export of water from the Province. The
prayer of the petition reads:
We, the residents of Newfoundland and Labrador, wish to petition the House of
Assembly, with copies to the House of Commons, to oppose the bulk export of
water from this Province.
Every major resource, such as Churchill Falls, that has been developed in
Newfoundland and Labrador has resulted in the majority of benefits going outside
the Province.
It is time that we demand our full and fair share!
With water being one of the few resources remaining where we have the
opportunity to deliver maximum benefits through jobs, spin-off from secondary
processing, as well as royalties, we demand that any water sold must be bottled
and processed in this Province.
The people who signed this particular petition, Mr. Speaker, generally tend
to be from the St. John's area, Pouch Cove, and so on. Again, we are receiving
petitions on a daily basis on this. We presented a number of petitions back in
1999. Again, we are presenting petitions. I would guess that the number of
signatures on petitions, combined with those that were presented in 1999, must
be into the thousands.
The people who signed this petition are asking that government give very
serious consideration to making sure that the processing on any water that is to
be exported from this Province be done in the Province; that we do not export
any bulk water from the Province. They are asking that we look at the fact that
employment is one of the major concerns in this Province. The people of this
Province want jobs. We don't want to be exporting our bright young people out
of the Province when we export raw resources. They want to see our resources
processed in this Province to give maximum benefit to the people of this
Province.
We have to ensure that we start looking at our resources with keeping in mind
that we have to provide maximum benefit to the people of the Province, the
people who own the resources. We have seen resources such as Churchill Falls,
our fishery, mining, as well as many other resources go out to be processed in
Sept-Iles, Quebec; to be processed elsewhere. Our offshore oil is being refined
elsewhere. It is time that we demand that our resources be processed in this
Province to ensure that the people of this Province have a place to stay, a
place to live, a place to raise their families.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Orders of the Day
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.
MR. LUSH: Motion 1, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: Motion 1, the Budget Debate.
We are on the amendment to Motion 1.
The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I am pleased to stand in the House today to speak on the non-confidence
motion and with respect to the Budget. Is there any wonder we have no confidence
in this Budget when we have the St. John's Health Care Corporation looking to
cut $10 million from the Budget, after all the cuts over the past few years, and
hundreds of beds being taken out of the system? What did we see last weekend in
the paper? When they are looking for $10 million in health care, we saw an ad in
the paper - I would say costing probably $1,500, a full-page ad by this
Administration. Here is what it says: Government's work plan of action. What
it should say: Liberal policies, which have been adopted, most of them, from the
Blue Book.
AN HON. MEMBER: And in action.
MR. J. BYRNE: And in action.
Really, when we are spending taxpayers dollars, $1,500, to promote Liberal
propaganda in the Province of Newfoundland Labrador when we are looking for $10
million in health care. It is shameful! Is there any wonder the people of the
Province have no confidence in this Administration?
Yesterday, we had a private member's motion put forward by the Leader of
the Opposition. I did not have an opportunity to speak on it. It was defeated.
We even had Division and, of course, all the government members stood in their
places and supported it. I suppose I can understand that, to a certain extent,
but it is shameful.
The Budget for 2001 talks about a small deficit of $30 million. Last year
they talked about a deficit of $20 million-odd. We told them at the time, this
side of the House, that the deficit was going to be over $200 million. They did
not believe us. We were laughed at. We were ridiculed for telling the truth and
showing the real figures. What do we see? Last fall the Auditor-General - who is
an independent auditor of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, who can say
what she wants, not like this piece of legislation now, the Ombudsman that they
were bringing to the House of Assembly here yesterday, the Citizens'
Representative, which is properly referred to by the Leader of the Opposition as
the Cabinet representative.
I was listening to the Minister of Justice on the radio this morning with Mr.
Brown. He was actually saying that the Leader of the Opposition should read this
piece of legislation, that he was misleading the public. Mr. Speaker, if the
truth be known, what we were saying was right on, just like what we were saying
last year with respect to the Budget and in agreement with by the Auditor
General. The government's own auditor came out in their financial statements
and showed it to be a $225 million deficit. This year they are talking about $30
million.
Mr. Speaker, you will find out in the near future, when the Auditor-General
does her report again this year, and the auditor for the Province does the
report, the deficit, in reality, will be over $300 million. Why is this
happening? When you look at the book, the document itself, it shows this figure
of $30 million-odd, but what they are not including in the Budget, of course, is
the debt of the hospital boards; they are including the debt of the school
boards; they are not including the debt of the municipalities that they are
ultimately responsible for. That is what is going on with this document. It is
not a true picture of what is happening in the Province of Newfoundland and
Labrador when it comes to the finances.
I have a lot to say on this bill or this non-confidence motion. We are saying
we have no confidence in the government, basically. When the government and the
Premier of the Province stands in his place and actually makes the statement:
What we are going to do is use all your policies - talking about the Opposition
- and by the time the next election rolls around there will be no more for you
to use. Now, talk about a government that is void of ideas. I can understand why
the Member for Port de Grave has finally decided to leave.
AN HON. MEMBER: He has lost confidence.
MR. J. BYRNE: He has lost confidence. I think the Member for Port de
Grave has lost confidence in this administration, Mr. Speaker. Now I had my
differences with the Member for Port de Grave over the past eight years, there
is no doubt about that. He took his smacks at me in this House of Assembly and I
took my smacks at him. I have to say, we did not agree on much but I have to
give him credit for one thing - and the Member for Port de Grave should listen
to this - something that I agreed to - pardon?
MR. NOEL: (Inaudible).
MR. J. BYRNE: Well, if I forced him out - thank you for that, I say to
the Minister of Government Services and Lands.
As I said, we had our differences but I have to give him credit, in the face
of a lot of opposition a number of years ago - although he did not do much for
my district when he was Minister of Works, Services and Transportation - but in
the face of all the opposition he decided - and he was the man, he ultimately
decided. I went to public meetings, public hearings on the Outer Ring Road, and
he did. He was the man who made the ultimate decision to put the Outer Ring Road
through, and I give him credit for that. I give him full credit for that.
AN HON. MEMBER: He did that for himself. That was to get a quick run into
Confederation Building (inaudible).
MR. J. BYRNE: Some people are saying that the Member for Port de Grave
approved the Outer Ring Road so that he would have a quicker access to the
Confederation Building. Now, that could be very well too; and the bypass and
what have you. I wish him well, Mr. Speaker, in his future endeavors; not too
well in some.
With respect to this non-confidence motion, Mr. Speaker. This government and
the Premier of this Province, the current Premier of the Province, have made
statements and talked about flip-flops.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, the flip-flops are just unreal.
As I said yesterday, he reminds me of when you pull a trout up through the
ice, you pitch it on the ice and it is flipping and flopping all around the ice,
Mr. Speaker. You don't know where it is going to land, what it is going to do,
what direction it is going to take or what direction it is going to point to;
that is what this government is all about. I can get into our policy manual here
and if I have time I probably will, and refer to some of the flip-flops. Some of
the major ones of course - the policy reversals are Voisey's Bay, Mr. Speaker.
How can we have confidence in this Administration? How could the people of the
Province have confidence in this Administration? Is there any wonder that we
would be putting forward a motion of non-confidence in this Budget when we have
a government that really have no direction, have no clue? They are like a squid
in the water, we don't know what direction it is going in. That is what is
happening with this Administration; and their tentacles are everywhere. I do not
want to go in that direction because their tentacles are pretty far reaching
when it comes to helping their buddies or their friends, I can guarantee you
that.
Now, Voisey's Bay nickel, the previous administration, the Premier of the
Province, the former Premier, and the former, former Premier, made statements
that there would be no nickel leave this Province or no ore leave this Province
for refining. I think they campaigned on it in the last election, if I do
recall. I remember the Leader of the Opposition saying in the 1996 election that
they were going to build a smelter in every community in the Province of
Newfoundland and Labrador. There is a smelter on wheels, that is what they were
talking about, Mr. Speaker, and it is still not built. We still don't have a
deal, but they campaigned on no ore leaving this Province. The current Premier,
Mr. Speaker, in his debate for the leadership of the party and to eventually
become the Premier, the Minister of Finance at the time, I think it was - was he
Minister of Finance or Minister of Mines and Energy, Paul Dicks, at the time? -
anyway, the Member for Humber West, and the Member for Port de Grave pointed to
him and said: Listen, you have plans for ore to leave this Province. He skated
around it, but now we know the real truth. We know what is going on in the
Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. That is a major flip-flop.
Now, the current Premier, when he was playing hockey and stuff like that, Mr.
Speaker, I think he had a nickname of Popsy. The current Premier had a nickname
of Popsy, playing hockey or something, right? Well, I think the name should be
changed to Flopsy Popsy. That is what should happen with this Premier. He is not
maintaining the mandate of why they were elected, what they went to the people
on. We are going to hold them to that. You can mark that down.
Also, the exporting of bulk water. Now, again, we see a major flopsy on that
one. The legislation went through this House last year, or the year before, and
everybody on that side of the House, Mr. Speaker, everyone, voted in favour of
not exporting bulk water out of this Province, and it was for a good reason; for
a very good reason. Even the Member for Bellevue voted in favour of that
legislation. Even the Member for Bellevue, who is promoting Gisborne Lake, voted
in favour of that legislation. Now, all of a sudden, he is up in the air. What
is wrong, if we are going to be exporting water out of this Province, that it is
exported out in bottles? Look at the jobs that can be created.
MR. T. OSBORNE: Jack, Grand Le Pierre have a boil order.
MR. J. BYRNE: No?
MR. T. OSBORNE: Yes.
MR. J. BYRNE: The Member for St. John's South says that a community
that is very near Gisborne Lake, which is promoting the exporting of bulk water,
has a boil order?
MR. T. OSBORNE: Yes.
MR. J. BYRNE: A boil order, Mr. Speaker, and we are talking about
exporting water out of this Province in bulk. We are talking containerships of
water gone, but the big factor here is - and it does not seem to be sinking into
the government and the members on the other side of the House - if we ship bulk
water out of this Province, it is my understanding that with respect to the
clawback and the equalization - now, with respect to certain products, export -
oil, for example - I think the government takes back eighty cents on the dollar;
seventy-five to eighty cents on the dollar. Now, with water, that is not
included at this point in time. If they create a new product, it is quite
possible, in the new categorization, Mr. Speaker, that the bulk water could be
shipped out of here and for every dollar that we make -
AN HON. MEMBER: Lose eighty cents?
MR. J. BYRNE: They will take the whole lot of it, every cent.
AN HON. MEMBER: Everything?
MR. J. BYRNE: Every cent, Mr. Speaker. So, what is the point?
Now, if they had any foresight - we have the foresight on this side. The
Member for St. John's South saw it a number of years ago. The former, former
Premier had it when we beat it into his head and he finally accepted it, the
foresight, with respect to: Let's create jobs.
AN HON. MEMBER: Do you remember the shaking of hands and the standing
ovation?
MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, the standing ovation and all that coming forward when
the legislation went through the House, Mr. Speaker. Let's create the jobs.
Let's create the secondary processing in the Province of Newfoundland and
Labrador. Why do we have to, again, ship it out of here in bulk, get rid of it,
create no jobs in the Province? It is shameful, as a matter of fact. It is
shameful.
AN HON. MEMBER: It is only going into the ocean, isn't it? Is it only
going into the ocean?
MR. J. BYRNE: The answer they gave is that it is only flowing into the
ocean anyway.
Get this now: Why, Mr. Speaker, would we ship it out of here, ship it to some
other province, maybe, or ship it to some other country, maybe, and they bottle
the water and send back those little half-litre containers and charge us $1.50
for our water?
Now, doesn't it make sense that we would take our water, we would bottle
it, send it out of the Province to other provinces, to the rest of the country,
to other countries in North America, maybe into Europe or wherever, and then
make a few bucks, create a few jobs? That is where it is at -
MR. BARRETT: (Inaudible).
MR. J. BYRNE: Pardon?
MR. BARRETT: How come you don't buy it from a Newfoundland bottler?
(Inaudible).
MR. J. BYRNE: I do. I say to the Minister of Works, Services and
Transportation, I don't have to buy much water. I have good clean water in my
home. I don't have to buy much of it, to be honest with you. But, if I did, I
would buy Newfoundland water.
As a matter fact, up in my office, I have a tank of water. Where do you think
it came from? It is from Newfoundland and Labrador.
AN HON. MEMBER: What kind of computer would you buy? Would you buy an
American computer?
MR. J. BYRNE: No, I would definitely buy local, no doubt about that.
AN HON. MEMBER: If you were a minister, what would you do?
MR. J. BYRNE: It would be a policy of my department, if I was a minister,
to buy local.
Why would we be even considering shipping bulk water out of this Province
when we can create maybe hundreds and thousands of jobs?
Now, the members on the other side throw this back across the House: Well,
out in B.C. they have twenty-eight bottlers. How much money do they make, I say
to the Member for St. John's South?
MR. T. OSBORNE: Twenty-eight thousand.
MR. J. BYRNE: Twenty-eight thousand dollars. Even if it is $28 million,
it is pittance, as far as I am concerned.
MR. T. OSBORNE: How many jobs were created?
MR. J. BYRNE: How many jobs were created? Well, they are talking about
revenues with respect to royalties. So, how many jobs do they have out there,
Mr. Speaker? That argument does not hold up. Maybe, just maybe, they are not
doing it right. We see so often in this House of Assembly - I heard, again, the
Minister of Justice on this morning talking about his great piece of
legislation, The Citizens' Representative, talking about how they do this in
Manitoba and some other provinces.
Basically, the first thing that came to my mind was: Do they have any
original ideas themselves? Just because some other province is doing it, doesn't
mean we have to do the exact thing. Two wrongs don't make a right. I don't
think it does anyway, Mr. Speaker. Now in algebra, two negatives can make a
positive but, in reality, I don't think two wrongs can make a right.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. J. BYRNE: I know.
Now, what other flip-flop do we have? Gas price regulation; now, that is a
beaut. We are putting legislation through this House right now - this past week,
two weeks, three weeks or whatever the case may be - and members on that side of
the House, the former Minister of Energy, the current Premier of the Province of
Newfoundland and Labrador, stood in this House, stood in the scrum area, out in
the media, all kinds of reports last year and the year before, and said: It will
not work. It is a waste of time to do it.
All of a sudden, bang-o!, it is going through, because he thinks that the
people of the Province are going to probably give him a few votes because they
think that is a positive thing to do.
Mr. Speaker, what we have been saying - and I don't understand why they
have not adopted this policy yet, because when you look at out policy manual for
1999, a lot of our policies have been adopted. Now, we have been saying on this
side of the House to give the people a break in the Province of Newfoundland and
Labrador; reduce the taxes. No, cannot do that. I have heard it in the past: We
cannot do this, we cannot do that. Where are we getting the money? Maybe I can
address that later on with respect to some of the policies.
MR. NOEL: Address it now.
MR. J. BYRNE: Oh, I will tell you what. Mr. Speaker, the Member for
Government Services and Lands says, address it now. Here is one point that you
can look at, I say to the Minister of Government Services and Lands: Right now,
gas is at eighty-nine cents for the regular, I believe. I remember only a couple
of years ago it was probably in the sixty cents bracket. So, how much extra
taxes are you taking in? Now there is talk that gas will go to $1 a litre this
year. How much extra revenue have they been taking in over the past few years,
Mr. Speaker?
MR. NOEL: The gas tax is (inaudible), nothing extra.
MR. J. BYRNE: What? Mr. Speaker, if the gas price goes up, they will get
more taxes. That is pretty simple to understand. I know one thing; I am paying
more. If I go to the gas pumps, and if it was costing me $35 to fill up but now
it costs me $40 or $42, do you mean to tell me they are not getting more taxes?
MR. NOEL: (Inaudible).
MR. J. BYRNE: I do not care how more. It is still more, and a lot more.
If it goes up, I say to the Minister of Government Services and Lands, from
sixty cents a litre to $1 a litre, or from eighty cents a litre to $1 a litre,
that is 20 per cent. That is a good chunk of money, I say to the Minister of
Government Services and Lands.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. J. BYRNE: I am going here, my son. I am wound up for at least
twenty-four hours, I say to the Deputy Premier, the deputy, deputy, deputy.
MR. SHELLEY: Deputy Dawg.
MR. J. BYRNE: Deputy Dawg.
Mr. Speaker, I have to say this, and I have been wanting to say this for a
long while in this House of Assembly.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. member's time has expired.
MR. J. BYRNE: By leave?
MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?
AN HON. MEMBER: No leave.
MR. SPEAKER: No leave.
MR. J. BYRNE: I will be up again, I say, Mr. Speaker. They won't muzzle
me.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay South.
MR. FRENCH: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. FRENCH: I am very pleased today to stand in the House and support the
motion of non-confidence as put earlier, and in full support of my colleague
from Cape St. Francis. Sometimes members opposite would wonder, Mr. Speaker, why
we can support such a motion or how we can really put such a motion to the
floor. I think this afternoon it was very evident when we talked to the Minister
of Works, Services and Transportation about computers for the Province of
Newfoundland and Labrador.
If we really want to talk about wasteful events, Mr. Speaker, and a waste of
money, we should talk about the Russian boat that we bought and is now in the
water down by the St. John's dockyard.
AN HON. MEMBER: What is wrong with her?
MR. FRENCH: We have spent millions on her, I say to the -
AN HON. MEMBER: No.
MR. FRENCH: No! I don't know what you have been reading, partner.
Now, Mr. Speaker, the estimate to complete that Russian ferry is close to $3
million. Shameful! Now that is $5 million, and I don't know what it would have
cost us to build a new one at the Marystown shipyard. Maybe before we tripped
off to Russia and bought this foolish craft that we now have in the water down
by the St. John's dockyard, we should have looked at buying a new vessel.
Mr. Speaker, I also have a question for the Minister of Works, Services and
Transportation. In actual fact, did we really get the right vessel? There is a
rumor going around, Mr. Speaker, that maybe, just maybe, we might have ended up
with the wrong boat, we may have ended up with the wrong ship. I don't know if
that is true and I don't know if it isn't.
I have to say to the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation, for this
money that we have spent, for this money that we have wasted, and I mean the
word wasted, Mr. Speaker, where we were supposed to get a vessel which we could
redo - we have already spent $2 million on her and we are now going to spend
another $3 million. I don't know exactly what we paid for this particular
vessel. That is $5 million right now, Mr. Speaker, that we have put into this.
Maybe over a number of years, regardless of the cost, maybe we should have
looked at going to the Marystown shipyard and financing the construction of a
new vessel so that we could have employed more people on the Burin Peninsula, so
we could have increased the workforce at the Marystown shipyard. Now we have a
shipyard, Mr. Speaker, which we gave away for a dollar which now owes us $10
million in penalties. I think that is disgraceful. That is what Friede Goldman
owes us today, Sir, $10 million. So somebody somewhere got a very, very large
freebie, I say to you.
As I said, this vessel that we bought in Russia - my understanding, Mr.
Speaker, we had two ships on dry dock over there, two ships of equivalency. One
was the sister ship of the other. I now hear rumors, Mr. Speaker, out of the St.
John's dockyard. The question being asked to me is: Bob, are we really sure
that we bought the right vessel? I said: My goodness, fellows, that can't
happen. But the reports that have come in to me: Did we really get the right
vessel off the synchrolift when we went to Russia to buy it, Mr. Speaker, or did
we not? I say that is disgraceful. Now this is $5 million and, at the end of the
day, after spending $5 million, I do not believe that this ship will be ready
then to become part of our ferry service in the Province of Newfoundland and
Labrador. I stand to be corrected on that, but my sources tell me -
MR. REID: (Inaudible) Tory ferries?
MR. FRENCH: I am sure the Tories might have a few ferries, as I am sure
the Liberals might have a few ferries of their own, I say to the Minister of
Fisheries. I am sure you might have a few ferries of your own, I say to him.
AN HON. MEMBER: I think we had better stay away from this.
MR. REID: You said, you might have a few. (Inaudible).
MR. FRENCH: I won't get into that, Mr. Speaker. I won't ask the
Minister of Fisheries to name some of his.
MR. REID: I didn't say we have any.
MR. FRENCH: I am sure you do.
As well, while I am up today, I would like to offer my congratulations to the
Member for Port de Grave who retired. I have sat here since 1996, and I have
watched that member in action. At times he could be a very, very partisan
member, I would say to the Speaker, especially as it related to his own side of
the House, but I give Mr. Efford full marks and full credit for representing his
people and, I believe, representing them well.
I remember, some years ago, saying in this House, when the day comes that we
forget who sent us here, then that is the day we do not deserve to be here
anymore. When we forget the people of this Province who said you and I could
come into this Legislature and represent them, the day that we neglect these
people is the day that people like you and I, if that day every comes, should
not be back here. I mean that, Sir, and I mean it most sincerely.
I am very please today to rise in support of this motion. I heard my
colleague earlier sparring with the member opposite, talking about gasoline
prices. I am fortunate. I come from an area of the Province that probably has
the lowest gasoline prices in Newfoundland and Labrador. Our price in Conception
Bay South is usually approximately four cents a litre cheaper than it is
anywhere else in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.
I say to the member opposite, maybe he needs a lesson in gasoline prices.
Maybe he needs a lesson in what transpires with gasoline companies in the
Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, because when the day comes, if we ever
pass this particular piece of legislation, we are going to find that we will
have done absolutely, positively, nothing for our citizens of this Province with
the lowering of gasoline prices. To me, it is a shame, it is a farce, and that
is exactly what it is going to be.
When a tanker truck can leave St. John's and drive to my area, don't tell
me that the gasoline prices are cheaper, if they come into Conception Bay South,
when the gasoline is bought in from St. John's.
Gasoline is gasoline. Most times, they have agreements between the oil
companions whereby in one part of the world we will buy your gasoline in our
tankers, and in other parts of the world you will buy our gasoline in your
tankers. I watch that, because not very far from where I live - it is now closed
up - there was a place where a certain company used to store gasoline. If you
could only sit in my front room window some night and watch the tankers go back
and forth, and if you noticed the oil companies that they represented, let me
tell you something, it was very rarely that it was one of the oil tankers from
the company that owned the facility. It was usually tankers from other
facilities that took the gasoline and distributed it around the Province of
Newfoundland and Labrador.
The problem that we have with our gasoline prices is taxation. Unless we
reduce the amount of taxation on gasoline, we are always going to find gasoline
prices where they are today. That, to me, again is wrong.
I also have to agree with my colleague that when you look at our health care
system, when you go into hospital and look up and see a sign: Anybody coming
into the Emergency Room of this hospital can expect a six- hour wait - a
six-hour wait. When you hear from your own district, of an eighty-five year old
lady who has to lie on a stretcher in emergency from Sunday night until 9:00
p.m. on Thursday, before this lady could be given a bed, that is wrong. It is
not morally wrong, as far as I am concerned, it is criminally wrong, to expect
an eighty-five year old lady to lie on one of these beds from Sunday to Thursday
night and not be admitted to hospital and not be given a room. Mr. Speaker, you
or I, or anybody in this Legislature on either side of the House, can walk
through the Health Sciences and see the number of beds that are in there that
are closed.
While we are going to do that, how in the name of goodness do we expect to
look after our sick and our needy people? In the case of the lady I just
mentioned, if it had not been for her son and his wife, on Sunday night,
deciding that he should go and visit his mother, and they walked into the house
and found this lady in cardiac arrest - an eighty-five year old lady - and for
her then to go into the Health Sciences, go into emergency, and lie on a bed
from Sunday night until 9:00 pm. on Thursday is wrong, dead wrong. Any
government that would allow that to happen, there is no wonder that I can
support such a motion because I do not believe that is right. I do not believe
that the number of beds we closed is right, and we are certainly not given fair
hearing to the people of our Province who are sick and certainly very much in
need of medical attention.
I watched that, Mr. Speaker, and I watched it for a long time. I remember,
ever before I got elected to this place, going into the hospital to visit a
member of my family who, at the time, was extremely sick, and being told that
they were not permitted to be given a sheet of this - what I would call
eggshell. I believe in medical terms at the Health Sciences they refer to it as
eggshell. The lady was told she could not get a sheet of this eggshell because
she was not dying. Can you imagine that, for medical attention? Then, again, I
have to say that is wrong and I have to say: Do not stand over on that side of
the House and say: Oh, we put a billion dollars in this year, or we did this or
we did that; because, at the end of the day, if we are not going to improve the
livelihood of somebody who unfortunately has to go to this place, then in actual
fact we have improved absolutely nothing. We have done nothing, absolutely
nothing, to help out the sick and the needy of this Province.
As I said, Madam Speaker, I touched on the vessel that we went to Russia to
buy, paid goodness only knows how much money, brought it back to this Province,
and we are now at a level where the estimate to finish this ship is $2 million
to $3 million. We have already spent a little bit better than $2 million on this
particular vessel. I am sure, Madam Speaker, if we went into your area, if we
went into your district, if we went into Marystown and we talked to Friede
Goldman, maybe at the end of the day this government would have been much better
off if we had financed the construction of a ferry in the Marystown shipyard. I
believe some of this benefit would have come back to the Province in the form of
taxes, where we were buying things from businesses in the area, where we were
providing employment for people in the area, so that the end of the day we could
go back and people would earn a decent wage to support their families. There
would have been monies coming from those wages to go pay income tax which again
would be a benefit to the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. At the end of
the day, Madam Speaker, we would have reaped some of this money back into our
Province.
When we see these things and, as my colleague from Bonavista spoke about
today, the seventy-five year old gentleman who, ten years ago, because of
circumstances, was forced to go on social assistance. Ten years later we are now
clawing back money from that lady. We are saying: Madam, you cannot drive any
more because your husband may have owed us some money before he died.
Is that right? I say, Madam Speaker, it is not right. That again, to me, is
morally wrong. We do absolutely nothing to help out the poor soul or the poor
individual who finds herself today in such a dilemma to be unfortunate enough to
owe this money.
How many members in this House receive phone calls about people who have had
their electricity cut? Unfortunately, sometimes, Madam Speaker, it is through no
fault of their own. It is because of their working circumstances; it is because
of injury. When you get a call from a guidance counselor at a school mentioning
a particular family, mentioning a child who is now doing Grade 12, and that
child has to do her homework at night by flashlight, you can imagine the strain
that it puts on that child and, at the end of the day, how that child is going
to end up; because, at the end of the day, she or he are going to have great
difficulty passing their exams.
There should be money made available to assist people, and I know these
people and I know this gentleman quite well. He is not receiving the wages that
he is receiving because he wants to, Madam Speaker. He is receiving the wages
because of an injury. He has fallen behind, as a lot of people in our Province
do. He has fallen behind and at the end of the day we have absolutely nothing
from social services or social assistance or Human Resources or whatever in the
name of goodness we want to call it. At the end of the day, we have absolutely
nothing in place to help this person, and at the end of the day we have
absolutely nothing to help the family, the sons and the daughters who are now in
high school, who are trying to get ahead, who are trying to help themselves, so
that when they become young adults and move into the world, they at least will
have the opportunity to gain an education and will not be stuck as their poor
old fathers were, having to go to Human Resources to look for money.
I believe we have lots of those cases in the Province of Newfoundland and
Labrador, but what have we done? What has this government done to assist those
people? At the end of the day, Madam Speaker, I do not come up with a very good
answer. I come up with an answer that says to me, the right thing we should be
doing is introducing such a motion, and for me, being an elected representative
of this House, I have no other alternative but to vote in support of a
non-confidence motion against this particular government.
When we see these wastes of money; when we see all these things transpiring,
at the end of the day we should be doing something to put a stop to it. If we
are not, Madam Speaker, then there is something wrong; there is something
radically wrong.
As I touched on the gentleman whose eighty-five year old mother went into the
Health Sciences, if it was for her son and her daughter-in-law, when they went
into this lady's home on Sunday night, she would have been dead. She would
have been dead. Yet, from Sunday to Thursday at 9:00 p.m., this lady stayed in
emergency on a stretcher because there was absolutely no place for that lady to
go. The lady used to say to her son, who told me: Don't complain. Don't say
anything. The crowd of people working here are doing a good job. They look after
me and they treat me right.
I can only agree with that, Madam Speaker. The people who work in these
institutions are doing the best they can under very, very trying circumstances.
I will go back to a few years ago when my wife ended up in the hospital,
going in and talking to one of the ladies who went around cleaning the rooms in
the hospitals, who said to my wife in the bed: You know, Missus, these rooms don't
get the cleaning that these rooms deserve, the cleaning that they should be
getting. I remember some years ago in this House, raising the point that the
Waterford Hospital where people were being timed in cleaning a room by some fool
with a stopwatch. I do not know what we are looking for, and I do not know where
we are going but at the end of the day, we are certainly not giving the right
kind of knowledge, or the right help, or the right information, to the people
who have to work in these systems. At the end of the day, again, we really seem
to be going absolutely nowhere. So this is why I have absolutely no problem
supporting this motion of non-confidence. As my colleague from Cape Francis said
earlier, when we look around and see the waste - when we look today at the money
that is being spent on computers, and the question raised by the Leader of the
Opposition on the amounts of money that we could have saved. How many more beds
could that have given us in a hospital in the Province of Newfoundland and
Labrador?
I go back again to two doctors who were interviewed - and I do not know how
we intend to look at attracting doctors into the Province of Newfoundland and
Labrador. There were two doctors in British Columbia - two specialists, by the
way - who had received offers to either practice medicine in New Brunswick or
practice medicine in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, they flew from
British Columbia to New Brunswick and had an interview. A couple of days later
they flew to Newfoundland and had their interview for jobs. The husband is from
New Brunswick and his wife is from Newfoundland and Labrador. They wanted to
move back to Eastern Canada. The Province of New Brunswick were offering doctors
signing bonuses of approximately 40 per cent. The Province of Newfoundland and
Labrador were offering nothing.
MADAM SPEAKER (M. Hodder): Order, please!
The hon. member's time is now up.
MR. FRENCH: By leave, Madam Speaker.
MADAM SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?
AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.
MADAM SPEAKER: Leave is granted.
MR. FRENCH: Thank you.
Madam Speaker, how do we expect to bring these experts into the Province of
Newfoundland to help our much needed and very crippling medical system in this
Province if we are not going to be able to match or do the things that we should
be doing? You can go into clinics in your own part of the Province and you will
find doctors who will no longer take patients. I know of one clinic in my area
where there are two doctors who will not take any more patients, because they
cannot. There are 55,000 charts in this particular area that I am talking about.
So how are we going to assist these people? How are we going help these doctors
who work long hours? Five, six, and seven days a week some of them. They have a
call system on but at night you can no longer go to this clinic. If you call on
their recording, the recording tells you that you must come into town. You must
come in and go to a local hospital. If we are going to have to come in and go
into these local hospitals, I just wonder how it has been.
As I said in the case of the eighty-five year old lady, from Sunday to
Thursday night she lay on a stretcher in emergency. Is that good health care,
Madam Speaker? I do not think so. As I spoke about somebody in my own family a
couple of years ago being at the Health Sciences - it was actually my wife who
needed a sheet of eggshell and was told that because you are not dying, Mrs.
French, you cannot have this. Now the doctor came in, snapped his fingers and
she had it. I guess, Madam Speaker, we would not say or I would not dare say in
this House what I said at the Health Sciences. I told the nurse in charge what I
would have done -
AN HON. MEMBER: Were you evangelical?
MR. FRENCH: I was better than evangelical, believe you me.
I phoned the assistant administrator at that hospital. I told the assistant
administrator at that hospital what room my wife was in and I said: Listen, I
don't have any money but tonight I will be at the hospital between 5:00 and
6:00 o'clock. I said: Come up, that so-and-so stuff cannot be any more than
$10 a sheet. I will give you $200. I will go home tonight - and my wife will
stay here tonight - knowing that we have made life a little bit more comfortable
and a little bit more pleasant for people in that surrounding because of the
fact that we gave the money. People are now, at least tonight, going to be able
to have a decent nights' sleep because they bought this particular kind of
stuff so they could have support.
I thank whichever hon. member it was on the other side who gave me leave. I
know there was one over there who did not want to give me leave, but that's
okay. Whatever goes around, comes around. I am sure I will remember that. Thank
you very much, Jack. I thank you, Madam Speaker, and I thank the members who
gave me leave. With that, I will sit down.
MADAM SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Harbour Main-Whitbourne.
MR. HEDDERSON: Thank you, Madam Speaker.
I rise today to add my voice to the non-confidence motion in the Budget. I
better say what I can in the twenty minutes because I just have a feeling that I
am not going to get leave on that side.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. HEDDERSON: I don't know. There may be one or two over there who
might consider giving me some leave. I will give you a hint, someone else who
sits in front of me here might be getting up after me.
AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.
AN HON. MEMBER: Are you talking about Paul?
MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.
Madam Speaker, I must say that when the Budget comes down and you look at the
amounts, the money that has been spent, you would hope that the money that has
been spent has been spent in a way that would make life much better for as many
citizens of Newfoundland and Labrador as possible. Obviously, it is not going to
cater to everyone's needs. That gets to be almost an impossibility because in
this perfect world we know that there are certain needs that are going to be
given more priority than others, that there are certain areas that are going to
be given more priority than others. When we look at the amount of money that
comes down in the provincial Budget we know that we can expect that not all the
needs are going to be met.
The experience that I have, of course, as a member in a rural district, is
that we have a tremendous amount of needs throughout that particular district
which have been crying out to be addressed over the last two years or so that I
have been there. It gets frustrating for the people when year after year they
see that their particular road is not taken care of, the water situation is not
taken care of, the maintenance of the various buildings is not taken care of. It
gets very difficult to have confidence if year after year things do not get
done. So you can imagine the frustration of many constituents. I guess not only
in my district, but in the many districts throughout this great Province of
Newfoundland and Labrador.
I would like, if I could, stay in my district because that is what I am most
familiar with and have been fortunate, I guess, to be able to have some needs
addressed. I think it imperative upon me, as the member for that particular
district, that I go through some of the needs of my district that have not been
addressed and perhaps will not be addressed in this particular Budget.
Roads; I guess every member in this House, in looking at their particular
district, sees roads as a very important link within the district and, of
course, outside the district. When you go down to the car dealership and
purchase a car - you know as well as I, Madam Speaker, that the cost of that car
has absolutely gone through the roof. Cars that you were getting even ten years
ago for $10,000, you can't look at them now unless you have $20,000 in your
pocket. When you get a call from a constituent and the first words she says is:
I got a new car. You say wonderful, because you know it is a situation which
indicates that they certainly are moving up in the world or getting to better
their lot but, in a second sentence, says: I have the suspension torn off my
$20,000 car, or the shocks are gone after two or three months.
Madam Speaker, we know the cost of not only purchasing an automobile, but
also maintaining an automobile. It is so important that if people in my
constituency, or indeed anywhere in Newfoundland and Labrador, have vehicles
that cost so much, it is most important that we try to protect their investment
by ensuring that th