VOL. 3 THIRD SESSION OF THE THIP.~Y-!Ul'1TH GENEP.J..L ASSFM.BLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND PRELIHH1ARY UNEDITED T~.NSCF.IPT HOUSE OF ASSF.M.BLY FOR. THE PFRIOD: 3:00 o.rn. - 6:00 9.rn~ 1•7EDNESD.1\Y, M...J\.Y 2, 19 84 NO. 29

May 2, 1984 The House met at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair HR. SPEAKER (Russell) Tape no. 1187 Order, please! MR. GOUDIE: STA'!'ErillNTS BY MINISTERS Mr. Speaker. MJ - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. SOME HON. ~~BERS: Hear, hear! MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a statement with respect to recent reports of a gasoline shortage on the Coast of Labrador from Cartwright to Red Bay. As hon. members are aware these reports arise each Spring and the han. member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock) has brought the matter to my attention.

I have not received an y complaints from any other source. !~y officials have held discussions with the hon. member referred to. In view of the perennial nature of this matter officials of my department in Labrador have instructions to monitor the possibility of shortages of any kind and they have kept a close watch on the situation this year in advance of any reported shortages. It is important to emphasize that my department, and in fact this government, is not in the business of retailing gasoline, fuel, or other supplies to residents on the South Coast of Labrador.

Fuel is provided through Ultramar in the Strait area, Labseaco and Woodward's Oil along the rest of the Coast. There is ample storage capacity at the site of their dealerships to carry residents through even the most severe Winter. The storage of adequate fuel supplies is, or should be, a straight business arrangement. 3131

May 2, 1984 Tape No . 1187 MJ - 2 MR . GOUDIE : It may well be that sufficient fuel should be provided on con signment to the respe ctive dealers, or through some other business arrangement, t~ prevent recurrence o£ the annua .l Spring uncertainty . While there is a shortage of gasoline for sale at Mary 's Harbour, Fox Harbour, William's Barbour, Port Hope Simpson, Charlottetown and Lodge Bay, I am info rm ed that a substantial number of residents have private stocks . There is no shortage in the Strait area or at Cartwri ght . ~~ple supplies of diesel fuel are available for the fis hery .

The snowmobilin g season is almost over but many people use gasoline during the salmon fishery which start s 3132

May 2, 1984 Tape 1188 PK - 1 MR. GOUDIE: about mid-fune.As there is no ice in the Strait~ supplies could be brought in from L'Anse au Loup should they oe required. I have asked my officials to contact the suppliers and also to continue to monitor the situation in the best interests of the residents of Coastal Labrador. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. NEARY: ORAL QUESTIONS The han. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, I notice from the promotion of the meeting between the Minister of Transportation (Hr.

Dcrwe) and the President of Canadian Pacific that the han. rlinister of Transportation was scheduled to meet with the President of Canadian Pacific today to discuss the regional air service in Newfoundland and Labrador. Could the han. minister inform the House if the Cabinet have yet rescinded their boycott, if they have rescinded the order that public servants are not to travel on Eastern Provincial Airways? Did the hon. gentleman inform the President of Canadian Pacific this morning that that Cabinet directive has been rescinded? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr.

Speaker, that is a question that was asked in that manner by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) before on several occasions. As in other matters of fact he is not correct,or the facts that he is trying to quote -rre not correct, that we never issued a Cabinet directive suggesting that we would boycott EPA. What we did was rescind a preference order made some time ago to assist Eastern Provincial Airways in a small way by suggesting that,when government officials and people travel.where they had a choice they would choose to fly with Eastern Provincial Airways 1 which is our regional and 3133

May 2, 1984 Tape 1188 PK - 2 MR . DAWE : local carrier. That order has been re scinded ,which means that public servants now who are travelling on government business , if there are t\.;o or three alternative means of air travel then they choose themselves which is the most convenient for them . MR . SPEARER (Russell) : The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR . NEARY : ~- Speaker, a ro se by any other name smells just as sweet . The hon. gentlema n does not call it a boycott; I do not know what else you could call it .

The hon . gentleman talks about being correct, yet he refused to give information to this House that he gave to The Evening Te.legram about his use of chartering Labrador Ain11ays aircraft that was 100 per c.ent 3134

..., May 2, 1984 Tape No. 1189 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: correct when we made the accusation from this side of the House. We will deal with that at another time. But, Mr. Speaker, let me ask the hon. gentleman how are the public servants now travelling? Are they flying Labrador Airways, the majority of them? Are they renting cars or are they fly~ng EPA? MR. ROBERTS: The ministers are going in chartered aircrafts. MR. NEARY: I know how they are going. We know how the minister is travelling. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. r-1inister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr.

Speaker, I would suggest that perhaps public servants,when they are travelling, I am sure that there are some of them using all the available commercial air travel. There are some of them who from time to time have to hire cars · from various agencies that do that sort of business. There are others who use public means of transportation in that we do have some cars available in the various departments either owned directly by the departments or for the purposes of general use in a car pool system. Some of them, I would suggest, Mr.

Speaker, from time to time walk to where they are carry·ing out business·, Others, I am sure, as , I have from time to time 1 taken the CN bus ·. I understand, Mr. Speaker, some time ago there was an experiment at least by one individual who was carryi.ng out government business and used a hors·e. There · are, I' am sure, . occasions when others have used the various means of water transportation. There are those >vho, again i'ncluding myself, Mr. Speaker, who have from time to time. used snowmobiles in areas of the Province where that was applicable to get from one community to another.

And wherever ]:)ossible, Mr. Speaker, the people - MR. MARSHALL: bicycle. MR. DAWE: There are some of us · who use Yes. I am reminded as · >vell by 3135

May 2, 1984 Tape No. 1189 SD - 2 MR. DA~'ffi: my colleague that there are those of us· who travel· by bicycle from time to time both for business and pleasure. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. DA~VE: Mr. Speaker, I think it is r.easonable to say ,and the facts do speak for themselves.~hat public servants and officiaJ.s of this government \o~hen they travel use whatever means that is applicable for the situation, as economically as it can be done, as efficiently as it can be done,but at the same 3136

May 2, 1986 Tape No. 1190 NM - l MR. DAWE: time, Mr. Speaker, remembering that the primary purpose of the civil service and of government is to serve, our prime objective is to make sure that we bring government and the services of government to the people of this Province, and we will do it by whatever means possible. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, I am surprised the hon. gentleman did not say that the Premier was walking across the harbour on water these days. That will soon happen. MR. YOUNG: He will do it. In time he will do it.

Give him time. MR. NEARY: He will soon do it, I know. He will soon be doing it. Hon. gentlemen think that he will soon be doing it. I do not mind the hon. Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) being dense and refusing to answer the question, but his arrogance, Mr. Speaker, the arrogance of the han. gentleman really comes through from that side of the House. Let me put the questton to the han. gentleman again, In case the hon. gentleman is too dense to understand the question 1 let me ask again. How are the majority of public servants travelling these days?

Are they travelling on Eastern Provincial Airways, or are they travelling on the airline promoted by the Premier, Labrador Airways? Are they travelling on the aircraft that the hon. minister charters, the company that he charters from? How are they travelling, the majority? Because the Premier did leave the impression that the public servants were not to use Eastern Provincial Airways. 3137

May 2, 1984 MR. DAWE: MR. NEARY: gentleman did. MR. DAWE: MR. NEARY: Tape No. 1190 NM - 2 No, he never. Oh, I beg your pardon, the han. That is where you are wrong. Now could the han. minister tell us how the bulk of the public servants are travelling? Is it EPA, or is it the airline that the han. gentleman charters the planes from, Labrador Airways? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, you talk about being dense. Well, we have on this side of the House various ministers and myself who have answered some of the questions put forward by the Leader of the Opposition.

It is very difficult most times to try and formulate an answer to a non-question. We do try. And from time to time we have been successful in getting the information through but that aspect of it has been very limited. The bulk of civil servants who travel by air use aircraft. The bulk of civil servants who travel on the ground use vehicles, cars, trucks, pick-ups, this sort of thing. The bulk of civil servants that travel by water use boats. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: Opposition. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear: The han. Leader of the Mr. Speaker, that is really smart.

The han. gentleman obviously will not answer the question because they have something to hide, Mr. Speaker. He either does not know the answer or they are trying to cover up for something. So, Mr. Speaker, I see I am not going to get the answer from the han. gentleman, Mr. Speaker, for some unknown reason. 3138

-· May 2, 1984, Tape 1191, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman should be able to answer that question, it is a simple question; he either does not have the information, or, in his ignorance he is trying to bluff his way out of it. Now, Mr. Speaker, let me ask the hon. gentleman about the passenger service on the Quebec-North Shore Railway. Hon. members are aware that an application has been made to the Canadian Transport Commission to.drop that passenger service.

Would the hon. gentleman tell the House what steps the administration that he is a member of have taken to intervene, if any, into protesting the dropping of that service to the people of Labrador West? MR. SPEAKER(Russell): Transportation. MR. DAWE: The hon. the Minister of Mr. Speaker, finally a question that has some meaning to it. Yes, we are very much aware of the situation as it relates to the request from that particular railway to abandon the rail passenger service from Sept Iles, to Schefferville, and that would include, of course, Labrador West. My colleague, the MHA for Menihek(Mr.

Walsh) and myself have had several conversations about it. Our officials have been in touch with CTC. There will be a formal,written intervention in the hands of CTC in the next few hoursr As well, Mr. Speaker, we have gone further than to voice our real, genuine concern as it relates to abandonment of a service that provides the only alternative to air travel, from a passanger point of view, out of Labrador into other parts of mainland Canada, and that will be the prime argument we will be putting forward. As well, Mr.

Speaker, we want the opportunity for the people in Labrador to voice their concerns and have indicated to CTC verbally, and we 3139

May 2, 1984, Tape 1191, Page 2 --. apb MR. DAWE: will be doing so in writing in the next few hours, as I indicated, that we want a public hearing to take place in Labrador so that the people in the area, the councils and individuals can have an opportunity to voice their concerns first­ hand to the C.TC. MR . SIMMS: MR. SPEAKER(Russell) : the Opposition. MR . NEARY : Go od answer. The hon. the Leader of Mr . Speaker, I have a final qu est ion for the han. gentle man in the transp or tation field .

Can the han. gentleman tell the House if the environment al impact study on the Trans-La br ador Highway has started yet? Is it correct, in the news reports that I have heard, that it may d ela y t he construction of th e Trans -Labrador Bighway , the roa d to Happy Valley - Goose Bay , by as much as two year s? Will the han . gentleman giv e the House a few details on that particul ar matte r? MR . SPEAKER: The han. the Ministe r o f Transportat io n. MR . DAWE: Mr. Speaker, after we have gotten rid of th e dribble we are ft nally getting into some sensible questions.

Yes, for the past months, a year and a half or so, we 3140

May 2,1984 Tape No. 1192 MR.DAWE: number of months, a year and a half or so,we have been dealing with the issue as it relates to the Trans-Labrador Highway. After many, many years of trying to solicite co-operative funding from the federal government we were successful ah-1 in doing that,and we are now into a thre~ year phrase to build a Trans-Labrador Highway beginning in Labrador West and running, first of all 1to Ross Bay and then a route that will be decided finally ~hrough an environmental assessment process. That process is well underway.

There have been numerous meetings between officials of the various departments and agencies ,both federal and provincial,who have some concerns as it relates to the building of roads through virgin territory. There have been a number of meetings with the MHA representing Menihek (Mr.Walsh) 1 the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development, the member for Naskaupi (Mr.Goudie), the minister to my right, my colleague 1the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Simms) whose Wildlife Division has some particular interest in that. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.DAWE: As well, Mr.

Speaker, we have had involved in those conversations my colleague the Minister of the Environment (Mr. Andrews) • We have discussed the issue fully. I have talked as recently as yesterday,by phone, to one of the mayors of one of the communities directly involved in Labrador West and have assured him,as we have been assured by the people who are carrying out the various studies 1 that the process is in hand, it is ongoing now. Some of the studies have been activated and will be completed. The only dela~ 31 4 1

May 2,1984 Tape No. 1192 ah-2 MR.DAWE: as I indicated yesterday, that may be an obstacle to that road being completed will be if the federal government does not come forward with the second phrase of the cost-sharing programme. The environmental process was designed to protect the environment in this Province and it is a very positi ve piece of legislation that we on this side of the House are very proud of.

It is not intended to stifle development or to slow it down, it is intended to compliment development by making sure that progress in that particular area of transportation 1 or some other developmental aspect, goes ahead but at the same time protects the environment adequately so that future generations can look back and see what positive and worthwhile legislation the people who are represented on .. this side of the House now put forward. MR. SIMMS: Hear, hear! A good answer. MR.SPEAKER (Russell ): The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, before I carry on with the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) ,who I am sure will look forward to enlightening us even further let me ask the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) a question or two about the negotiations between the Police Brotherhood 1 representing the members of the constabulary on one hand - SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. ROBERTS: Is somebody ill on the other side, Mr. Speaker? MR.NEARY: They are all ill. MR.ROBERTS: - and, on 3142

May 2, 1984 Tape 1193 EC - 1 MR. ROBERTS: the other hand, I believe it is the Treasury Board that represents the government in these matters. We understand that negotiations were underway and that they have now broken off. We have not asked any questions, obviously, before this, but I wonder if the minister could perhaps bring us up to date on this. Could he tell us whether negotiations have broken off, if so, why, and when will they resume? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, I certainly am not aware that negotiations have broken off.

Al~ugh they may not be going on today, they may be adjourned to a certain day, but, to my knowledge, they have not broken off. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: The hon. the member for the Well, Mr. Speaker, it may be that I am aware and the minister is not, or it may be that the minister is aware and I am not. I wonder if he would agree to look into it and let the House know,tomorrow or Friday, whenever it is convenient to him. I think he is nodding acquiesence. If he wants to answer I will yield to him. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the l·'!inister of Justice. MR.

OTTENHEIMER: I will certainly do _that. As I said, to· my knowledge there is no break-off in the sense that that means. you know, they may not be meeting today or have met yesterday or be meeting tomorrow. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. 3143

May 2, 1984 Tape 1193 EC - 2 MR. ROBERTS: I thank the minister and I certainly am.not ·referring to an interruption today, you know, an adjournment or anything like that. I can onl y tell him that so we understand on the basis of our information that may or may not be correct, I am not warranting it. That is why I ask him here in the House, Mr. Speaker . MR. CARTER: You ha ve spiel:? MR. ROBERTS: . I am sorr y? MR. CARTER: You have spies? MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I say to my friend from St. John's North that the age of the brown paper envelope and the phone call is back again.

That is how we know, for example, the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) is using government aircraft to go to his constituency and the Premier is using government paid aircraft. That is how we know these things, and that is why I wanted to ask the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer), as I have. MR. CARTER: Are these paid spies? MR. ROBERTS: I assume, Mr. Speaker, I say to my friend from St. John's North, they are paid by the public, they are not paid by us. They get their pay in good conscience in knowing they are serving honour and decency, unlike my friend from St. John's North. SOME RON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. ROBERTS: Now, Mr. Speaker, let me come to the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins). Yesterday, as he may recall - I do not want to interrupt the minister, but he is reading something. DR. COLLINS: I am listening. MR. ROBERTS: Alright, he has the ability, Sir, to read and to listen at the same time. I only wish he 3144

May 2, 1984 Tape 1193 EC - 3 MR . ROBERTS : had the ability to speak and to think at the same time. Mr . Speaker, let me say to the mLnister , yesterday, as he will recall , I was asking him some questions about this ne\v policy under \vhicb ·~Jallace' is robbed to pay 'John ', under which the Minister of Health (Mr . House), under certain circumstances , will pay - MR . SIMMS: Very good ! MR . ROBERTS : It is very good , I say to my friend from Grand Falls . Much of \vhat we say is very good, as is much of what he says . It is too bad that \1hat he says in the House is not very good, but that is another story.

Mr . Speaker, the Finance Minister (Dr . Collins) indicated that under certain circumstances, the Health Department \'lill provide additional funds to enable the RST to be paid on the purchase of an item that some group donates to a hospital . Fine . -mi.J:l.i.s-ter -could-te-11 us- \o~hen - the- 3145

May 2, 1984 Tape No. 1194 MJ - 1 MR. ROBERTS: I wonder if the minister could tell us when the policy first began,and,secondly, would he agree to table the guidelines \'lhich I have no doubt '"ere written to embody this policy so that the whole Province can know about it? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) DR. COLLINS: The hon. the Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, the hon. member asks ·a question which is exceedingly imprecise so it is almost impossible to respond to it. He first of all says it was a new policv~ I am not sure what new policy he is referring to. Then asks when it began..

That, of course, presupposes that there was a ne\¥ policy and I am not sure what he is talking about when he says a nEM policy. So it is very difficult for me to respond to an imprecise question like that, With your permission, Mr. Speaker, I would just ask the hon. member if he could, in some way or other, phrase his question in the way that it is understandable. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: I assume Your Honour will grant permission,but, Sir, trying to phrase something in a form that is comprehensible to the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) is a little like King Canute telling the waves not to come ashore, it is so difficult it is to be impossible. Let me then ask him if he would be kind enough to table, would he agree to table in the House - whether it is kind enough or not~ and I ask him either as Minister of Finance or in his other capacity, since I understand he is acting Minister of Health; the Minister of Health (Mr. House) is not with us 1 unfortunately 1 so the Minister of Finance is doing double duty down there - if he would agree in either of his capacities to table a list­ I am not concerned about the amounts - showing 3146

May 2, 1984 Tape No . 1194 MJ - 2 MR. ROBERTS: , in each case '..rhat piece of equipment was purchased , when it was ourchased-to the month, or ,if he wants to be precise ,the day to the hour and to the min·ute, whether he is operating by standard time ,and, if it is in the Labrador portion of the Province ,is it by Atlantic time as opposed to Newfoundland time,and,when it comes to the ~lestern Labrador portion, Menihek district, 1..rhether it is on Eastern as opposed to Atlantic as O?posed - to use the kind of tactics that the Minister of Transportation (~1r .

Dawe/ uses in his obfuscation attemps , and he is a very obfuscated fello1..r indeed. NO\..r to come back to the ~.i nister of Finance,w ho is not capable of obfuscation,would he agree to table a list showing the times when this policy has been applied , the instance s when it has been applied, t..lle minister who has approved it, and 1 generally 1 the number and variety of instances i n which this new policy of robbing ' Wallace'to pay'John'bas been put into place? I can tell him there are a great number of people who are interested and I can also tell him, Mr. Speaker, that there are a great 3147

May 2, 1984 Tape 1195 PK - 1 MR. ROBERTS: number of groups around the Province who will be makiRg application to take advantage of this new beneficence of the minister and his colleagues. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, again the hon. member is referring to policy but he does not outline what policy he is talking about.

I am not quite sure whether he is talking about a policy whereby government funds in whole or in part equipment or similar type of material to institutions such as hospitals,or whether he is talking about some policy related to the acceptance of gifts from private individuals for government institutions. You know, quite honestly I do not know what policy he is referring to, it may be some other policy, but those are the two areas that,right off the top of my head 1I think he may be referring to.

If he could only in some fashion or form, perhaps in writing, if he wishes, or if he sends me a note - he can do it in Braille if he wants to­ but in .some means whereby it is understandable what exactly he is getting at, I will be only too glad to respond. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for the Strait of Belle. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I confess that I may be imprecise. My difficulty is that the only knowledge any of us has of his policy is what the minister has said.

Trying to understand the minister is like trying to grab a fistful of blancmange; you know there is something there but there is nothing of any substance you can get hold of. So I shall write to him and I shall make the letter public. It will not be in Braille but it will be 1 I hope, clear. It will be difficult to use language of words of more than one syllable. Perhaps the minister could tell us whether his vocabulary is beyond the 300 word limit,that is,the Dick and Jane readers he uses in the House. 3148

May 2, 1984 Tape 1195 PK - 2 MR. ROBERTS: Mt. Speaker, if I may,with your leave, Sir, I ~uld like to ask the !-tinister of Education (Ms. Verge). MR. SIMMS: You just asked him a question about Dick and Jane or something. MR. ROBERTS: Dick and Jane. It is Jhick and Dane as far as he knows. I will undertake to use word~ that I think the minister can understand. Mr. Speaker. That may be difficult but I will try. of Education, Sir? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. ROBERTS: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. ROBERTS: May I ask a question of the Minister Yes. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Oh, oh! The Minister of Education can read and write.

If only the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) could add and subtract we might get an honest budget for a change. Now let me ask the Minister of Education whether her department is prepared - MR. BAIRD: You took your nasty pills again today. MR. ROBERTS: Hold on or we will put you on ice, 'Ray'. Mr. Speaker, let me ask a question of the Minister of Education 1if the hon. gentleman opposite will be so kind as to allow me 1 in my own humble and ineffective way,to lay my pearls of wisdom before the feet of the hon. lady.

Could she tell us whether her department is prepared to extend funding in the form of an amount equivalent to the RSP to any voluntary group that is prepared to make donations either to the University or the DVSs and the College of Trades, the 3149

May 2, 1984 Tape No. 1196 SD - 1 MR. ROBERTS: Fisheries College and to the other educational institutions throughout the Province? Is this now something that groups can look to the department for? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): MS. VERGE: The han. Minister of Education. Mr.

Speaker, groups may certainly look to the Department of Education for exemption from the requirement of paying sales tax on items of equipment they wish to donate to schools directly operated by the department, the vocational schools , or for that matter to educational institutions operated outside the department - the university, colleges, school board schools. Those re quests would be forwarded to the Department of Finance. But, yes, certainly groups may request exemption from sales tax. I would like to encourage any groups ~"'ho cons ·ider making contributions to our schools. MR. ROBERTS: MR.

SPEAKER: of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker. The han. member for the Strait Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. The han. lady, I think, was not with us yesterday-physically, I mean, I am not trying to be smart for once - she was not with us yesterday - AN HON. · MEMBER: She was here. MR. ROBERTS: She was here~ Well,she made her usual impact in th .e House then. Obviously, then, she did not hear the Minister of Fi 'nance (Dr. Collins) say it was not an exemption.

What happens is the minister of the funding department, in this case Education, makes an additional grant to the institution - this is what the ~inister of Finance told us ~ and that money is then given to the donating group and the donating group puts it with its own funds, pays the RST, buys the object and makes the donation to the hospital or whatever. So I appreciate what she said and I have no doubt there will be an avalanche, and so there should be, of requests as she is now on a new path. But could she tell us 3150

May 2, 1984 Tape N0 . 1196 SD - 2 MR . ROBERTS: whether her de~artment is prepared to do as the Healtb Department . we are told by the Finance Minister (Dr . Collins) does, and that is to fund these groups in an amount equivalent to th~ RS'!' so that t hey can pay the RST and use their own funds for t."fle purpose of purcha sing it from a vendor? MR. SPEAKER(Russell) : MS . VERGE: The hon. Minister of Education . i"'.r. Speaker , similarily I can assure the member oppo site that I and my depart.~ent would be qu ite happy to o0nsider that arrangement should an offer of a donation materialize.

But 1 Mi' . sp·eaker 1 I am not a~rare of any donations of equipment to educational institutions having been made in my time as minister - MR . ROBERTS • This •rill encourage them . MS. VERGE: - where the q uestion of sales tax arose . In any case, I am not aware of any instance of a donation of equipment to a scho0l in the Province . But should one be made 1when sales tax is an issue 1 then I 3151

May 2, 1984 Tape No. 1197 NM - 1 MS. VERGE: would be quite happy to consider with my colleague, the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins),an appropriate arrangement for the payment of sales tax on that equipment whether it is by way of an exemption from the requirement of paying tax or whether it is by way of compensatory payment from the department to the institution receiving the gift to take care of the 12 per cent tax. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The han. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Sir, That is very helpful,I say to the minister.

Can she tell us whether she is familiar with the exemption process, whether it requires an Order-in-Council, or whether it can be done by the authority of a minister? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, clearly that is a question that should be directed to the Minister of Finance Nho is responsible for retail sales tax. MR. SPEAKER: of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: The han. member for the Strait There is no point asking the hon. Minister ot Finance because there is a two syllable word in there which he will not be able to understand.

I wonder if the minister could tell us the guidelines which she will apply in considering whether these donations will now attract the 12 per cent grant-in-aid from the government to enable the RSP to be defrayed? What are the guidelines? I mean 1 if I want to give to the school at St. Anthony,run by the Vinland Integrated School Board, the Verge Trophy for oratorical excellence in tribute 3152

May 2, 1984 Tape No. 1197 NM - 2 MR. ROBERTS: to the hon. lady, and it is going to cost me $100 to buy this at my friendly trophy shop, and I only have $100, but if I pay $100 there is the $12, and if I only have $100 to buy an $8 9 trophy, Mr. Speaker, ''Thich of course is not worthy of the hon. lady 1 it is gilt and not gilded, so I wonder if she could tell us the guidelines. I will tell the hon. lady the Verge Trophy hangs on her answer. MR. BAIRD: We do not have to worry about you spending $100 on any donation. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR. ROBERTS : Mr.

Speaker, I am awfully glad my friends in the lower right hand corner, and it is very low indeed in the lower right hand corner, do not work for Revenue Canada. But I will say to my friend from Humber West (Mr. Baird) that there are many who would·donate a great deal to see him in the House, and many who would donate a great deal more to see him out. But, Mr. Speaker, let me ask the han. lady if she could give us the guidelines, the considerations which she will use in determining how to apply this new policy that her colleague announced yesterday in the House. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon.

Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, any guidelines will be formulated in consulation with the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) and the officials of the Department of Finance. But the fact of the matter is that to my knowledge there have not been donations or offers of donations to the school which contained any question about sales tax, 3153

May 2, 1984, Tape 1198, Page 1 -- apb MR. TULK: will be. MS. VERGE: There will be. There In fact, there have been donations from parents, from Parent-Teacher Association but·those donors would have paid the sales tax in the normal way. When and if questions arise about sales tax on gifts to schools, then guidelines will be articulated to the would-be donors. MR. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER(Russell) : Strait of Bell Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker. The hon. the member for the I thank the han. Lady. She has confirmed, of course, there are no such guidelines.

And I would like to give her the opportunity to be sure that that is what she meant to say, that there are no guidelines, because, of course, there have never been any to such donations, and, of course, there never was any such policy until the minister, not the Minister of Bducation (Hs. Verge), I hasten to say, but the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) blundered into it again yesterday. But if she would like to differ with me, I give her the opportunit~ subject, of course, to Your Honour, that there never have been any guidelines, there are no guidelines for these donations. Could she confirm that, please? MR.

SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance was quite clear in his answers to the han. House yesterday, and what he said applies across the board to all gifts and bequests coming to government departments and institutions. What I have said, consistent with what the Minister of Finance said yesterday, is that 3154

May 2, 1984, Tape 1198, Page 2 -- apb MS. VERGE: there simply have not, regrettably, been all that many instances of gifts coming forward, and I am not aware of any instance of an offer to an~ducational institution within the jurisdiction of my department where the question of sales tax arose. MR. TULK: MR. SPEAKER(Russell): Period has expired. But it will. Order, please! The time for Question ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. HR.

OTTENHEIMER: I wish to table answers to questions no. 39 and 41, asked b? the hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Hr. Roberts). ORDERS OF THE DAY MR . SPEAKER: It being Private Member's Day,we shall proceed with motion No. 14. I understand that the debate was adjourned last day by the hon. the member for Eagle River(Mr. Hiscock) who, of course, is not in his seat today. Opposition. MR. NEARY: The hon. the Leader of the Thank you, Mr. ~peaker. I was just about to say that the hon. the member for Eagle River, who adjourned the debate,is in his riding. MR. ROBERTS: yesterday. MR.

NEARY: He was in Cartwright He is in Cartwright. He is down trying to look after the interests of his constituents, the gasoline and so forth. I might also point out, Mr. Speaker, that the member who introduced this resolution is serving overseas at the present time and will not be here this afternoon to wind up the debate. He is 3155

May 2,1984 Tape No. 1199 ah-1 MR. NEARY: travelling through Europe on urgent matters, Mr. Speaker. And so if hon. gentlemen would not mind, Mr. Speaker, and with the permission of Your Honour 1 I would not mind having a few words on this resolution myself. will recall - MR. CARTER: MR.SPEAKER (Aylward): North on a point of order. MR.CARTER: Now, Mr. Speaker, hon. gentlemen A point of order, Mr.Speaker. The hon member for St. John's Mr. Speaker , I stand to be corrected,but since the mover of this amendment is not here surely we should move onto the next topic to be debated and the hon. gentleman should sit down.

MR.SPEAKER: Order,please! To that point of order, there is no point of order. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member persists in making a nuisance of himself in this House. MR.ROBERTS: he does it accidentally. MR. NEARY: He does not do it intentionally Accidentally or otherwise,I do not know if it is deliberate or accidental. Now this resolution was written, Mr. Speaker, before the Gallup Poll became public yesterday, Therefore, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to read the resolution just to jog hon. gentlemen's memories a. little bit because there is something in this resolution that would give you the impression that the member who wrote the resolution- MR. SIMMS: This is out of order. MR. NEARY: We are on the amendment now. So what? 3156

May 2,1984 MR. SIMMS: MR. NEARY: i1R. SH1.."'1S: MR.NEARY: Tape No. 1199 ah-2 Read the amendment. That is what I am debating. You were going to read the resolution. I am going to read the resolution,if the hon. gentlemen do not mind 1 and then I can deal with the amendment after. But, Mr. Speaker, I do not want to be interfered with by hon. gentlemen there opposite. The hon. gentleman has forgotten the rules. You would swear, Mr. Speaker, that the member who wrote this resolution had a crystal ball and that he could look into the future. I will read the resolution.

WHEREAS the Supreme Court of Canada has recently decided in favour of the Federal Government concerning ownership and jurisdiction of offshore resources; AND

WHEREAS this followed a decision of the Newfoundland Court of Appeal which was brought prematurely to the Court and was not properly prepared; AND

WHEREAS the Premier of this Province has indicated that he intends to keep on fighting until there is a change of government in Ottawa rather than now returning with the Federal Government to the bargaining table; AND

WHEREAS the present Leader of the Federal Progressive Conservative Party has refused to commit himself to provincial ownership and jurisdiction of offshore resources and our Province's two Progressive Conservative Members of Parliament have made conflicting statements on this important issue; AND

WHEREAS - listen to this , Mr. Speaker - AND

WHEREAS recent polls create great doubt whether the Progressive Conservative Party will form the government of Canada after the next election; 3157

May 2,1984 Tape No . 1199 ah-3 MR . NEARY : Now this resolution was written several weeks ago, Mr . Speaker, andseve ra l weeks ago the polls were favourable towards the Tory Par ty of Ca na da . MR .STMt.fS : MR .NEARY : Not .,,hen he \o~rote that . iVhen th ... s \.;as written . Mr . Speaker , I did not think hon . gentlemen were that dense . When this resolution was written the Tories were leading in the national GaLlup Poll . - - MR . SIMMS: There was slippage . They had fa ll en . MR . NEARY : They had fallen slig htly . The re was seven percentage points in the diffe rence, Mr . Speaker .

And now the situationhas completely reversed itse lf. And so, Mr . Speaker, the editor of thi s resolu tion really knew what 3158

~ May 2, 1984 Tape 1200 EC - l MR. NEARY: he was talking about. He must have had the inside information, because now, after all the misguided assumptions on the part of the Premier, the Premier operating under a false premise, now, lo and behold, the han. gentleman discovers. that we should not take for granted the fact that the Tories may form the next government in Ottawa. The whole situation has reversed itself in a very short while. My advice to the han. gentleman is not to put all his offshore eggs in one basket, Mr. Speaker.

As I said yesterday in his absence, when he was over wasting taxpayer money in Nova Scotia, Mr. Speaker, my suggestion when the han. gentleman was absent from the House was that what the administration should do is to take the Chretien package that is on the table and use that as a basis for future negotiations. PRE:r-UER PECKFOP.'D: There is no package on the table. MR. NEARY: Now, Mr. Speaker, the han. the Premier is trying to tell us there is no package on the table. PREMIER PECKFORD: No. MR. NEARY: Well, what was his Minister of Energy (Mr.

Marshall) doing up in Montreal for three months behind closed doors with the federal Minister of Energy (Mr. Chretien), making great progress in negotiations until the Premier went in and stationed himself in another hotel and had the carpet pulled out from under the feet of the provincial Minister of Energy? PREMIER PECKFORD: I was never in Montreal during those negotiations. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, not only was the han. gentleman in Montreal, but he would leave people with 3159

May 2, 1984 MR. NEARY: PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Tape 1200 EC - 2 the impression - On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Order, please! On a point of order, the han. The han. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) is making incorrect statements about my presence in a place called Montreal during the last set of negotiations and I have to correct the han. gentleman. I was not in Montreal for any of those negotiations and I would ask and implore the Leader of the Opposition to please be factual in the presentation of his arguments. MR.

SPEAKER: To that point of order, I rule that there is not a point of order. The han. member took the opportunity to correct certain statements. The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman was passing through Montreal - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. SPEAKER: the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: -on his way to or from - On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. On a point of order, the han. That is untrue. That is completely untrue. I was not passing through Montreal. I had nothing to do with Montreal whatsoever.

The Leader of the Opposition got his facts wrong and for the sake of clarity and accuracy in the Hansard of this House,and for the sake of the press who are listening and those people in the gallery, I have ~o inform the Leader of the Opposition for the second time that he is incorrect. 3160

May 2, 1984 Tape 1200 EC - 3 MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): To that point of order, I rule it is more a point of clarification, not a point of order. Opposition. MR. NEARY: The hon. the Leader of the The next thing, the hon. gentle- man will be telling us he was not in New Brunswick last week and he was not in Halifax yesterday. That is the next thing he will be doing. PREMIER PECKFORD: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: On a point of order, the hon. I wish to inform the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary), I was in New Brunswick last week and I was in Halifax yesterday, so if the Leader of the Opposition is trying to create the impression that I was not in New Brunswick last week and was not in Halifax yesterday, it is incorrect, I was so in New Brunswick and I was so in Nova Scotia! SOME HON . MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: Hear, hear! Order, please! To that point of order, I rule it is a difference of opinion between two hon. members. Opposition. MR. NEARY: The hon. the Leader of the Anyway, Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is, it would appear that the hon. gentleman does not know if he is coming or going.

SOME HON . MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: Now, Mr. Speaker, when he pulled the carpet out from under 3161

May 2, 1984 Tape No. 1201 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: the feet of the provincial Minister of Energy (Mr. Marshall) who was negotiating with Mr. Chretien - AN HON. MEI,.lBER: There ~as no package on the table. HR. NEARY: - there was a package on the table and the package \vas a very gene .. :Jus package indeed. MR. SIMMS: There was not package on the table. MR. NEARY: There was a package on the table. PREMIER PECKFORD: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. ~~. SPEAKER (Aylward) : A point of order, the han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: A point of order. Before I leave, Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) once again is inaccurate. There was not ever a package put on the table by the federal government.in the last set of negotiations. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order 1 I rule there is a difference of opinion. The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY• Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman last week came in with a Ministerial Statement in this House rebutting the statements that had been made by Mr. Chretien about the package that was on the table. SOME HON. r-1EMBERS : Oh, oh! MR •. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, are they losing·' their memories over there? I think they are all senile, Mr. Speaker. SOME KON.

MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: SOME HON. HEMBER: MR. NEARY: Oh, oh. They are all senile, r1r. Speaker. Oh, oh. Well 1they have selective amnesia. Mr. Speaker, there was a package on the table and the han. gentleman cannot deny that. The provincial Minister of Energy - 3162

May 2, 1984 MR. MARSHALL: MR. NEARY: files with me. MR. DAWE: Tape No. 1201 There was nothing, nothing. Mr. Speaker, I wish I had my SD - 2 You cannot have any files there because you do not have any facts. MR. NEARY: Hr. S"9eaker, here is a Telex, 'Please deliver immediately', it says, a Telex back in January 26 1 1983 from the Minister of Energy (Mr. Marshall) here in this Province to the han. Jean Chretien, I·'lr. Speaker. And here is a reply 1 January 26. There are all kinds of Telexes back and forth talking about the proposals that were on the table, Mr. Speaker. MR. DINN: MR. NEARY: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR.

NEARY: What does the Telex of January 26 say? I am not going to waste my time. Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker, everybody knows they are making fools of themselves over there. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I will tell you what happens. The Premier goes into the caucus and like sheep they sit there and listen to him as he says, 'Listen 1 boys, here is the way it is'. MR. DAWE: Why should you bat more than a thousand at being wrong today? MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, was I wrong on the chartering of the aircraft, the han. gentleman's abusing and misusing the taxpayers' money?

The hon. gentleman should be forced to repay the money that he used to take him home on chartered aircraft. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): MR. NEARY: MR. HODDER: aircraft were flying. Oh, oh. Order, please! Now, Mr. Speaker,. let me say this~ And at the same time commercial 3163

May 2, 1984 Tape No . 1201 SD - 3 MR . SPEAKER (Avh~a rd ) : Orde r, plea se: MR . NEARY: Now after making complete jackasses of themselves now ~~e Premier SOME HON • rA.Et-iBERS : r1R . NEARY: Oh , oh . Mr . Sp eaker, may I be heard in silence o.r are we going to have a bear pit here , t1r. Speaker? r.-1~ . SPEAKER : Order, please ! I remind hon . members of the House that the hon . member has the right to be heard in silence . The hon . Leader of the Opposition . MR . NEARY : No,..r, after makin9' com9lete fools and jackasses of themselves, Mr .

Speaker, after the Premier standing on his hi gh \..rall for fiv e years throwing hot, boiling tar down on the backs of Otta\¥a, the other provinces, the oil com9anies, after doing that for five years, nO\¥ he comes down off the wall and he decides to make a cross-Canada 3164

May 2, 1984 Tape No. 1202 MJ - 1 MR. NEARY: tour to scrape the tar off of the backs of these ~eople that he has been throwing the tar on for the last five years. Now, Mr. Speaker, is it working? Is the hon. gentleman's little gimmick, his little ego trip, is it working? \:Tell, following the prepared address that the hon. gentleman made in New Brunswick they interviewed people who were at the meeting, who listened to what the hon. gentleman had to say 1 and the majority of them said, 'Look,he is too late, Heshould have been doing this years ago.' In Nova Scotia yesterday, Mr.

Speaker, the same thing happened~ The people 'tlho were interviewed, who sat at the meeting and listened, said, 'Yes, of course we respect the speaker,but he is too late. TOo little too late. He should have been doing this before he ~ut the matter to the Newfoundland Appeals Court, before the matter weat to the Supreme Court, before he burnt his bridges he should have been making this cross-Canada tour that he is making now.' That is the general r.eaction. Mr.

Speaker, so far the assessment of the Premier's latest jaunt across Canada, his crusaqe of apologizing to all of those he has been throwing the hot tar on for that last several years, is it has been a failure. MR. HODDER: Is he not paying for the meals? HR. NEARY: is paying He is paying for the meals, he the expenses, he has a captive audience. Mr. Speaker, we understand that the exP8~ses are being paid, the whole tning has been orchestrated/ and we would like to know how much that is costing the taxpayers. But so far, Mr. Speaker, it has been a spectacular flop and failure.

Nobody is biting, nobody is being bluffed by the hon. gentleman, Mr. Speaker, and I believe it is about time that the Premier stood in this House and told the people of this Province that he is not going to waste any more taxpayer money, that he is 3165

May 2, 1984 Tape No . 1202 MJ - 2 MR . NEARY: not going to try to bluff the peop le \.,ho sit in at these meetings , that ne is going to give up this wasteful tour and that he will shrug off his lazines s, his temptation to get out of Confederation Building,to get out of this House and get out of Newfound land, to get into a climate where he does not have to do very much except re ad a prepared speech , rt is about time he gave up this wasteful and extravagant waste of taxpayer money , Mr. Speaker, and picked up his phone and did the honourable thing, did the sensible thing, and that is to call the hon .

John Chretien, federal Minister of Energy , and say "Look, Mr. Chretien, that offer or that proposal, that packam'! that was on the table •.o1as a verv generous oackage indeed/ 1 ~tr . Speaker, and make that the basis of further negotiations . 3166

May 2, 1984 rape 1203 NM - 1 MR. CARTER: Put : on the record. MR. NEARY: Yo~ ~n put it on the record all you want. Now that is do, that is the sensible th the havoc, bring an end to that has been caused by thi to the Government of Canada of Canada, the national bus international business worl opposition to all of these years have wreaked havoc or have caused un·told pain an of this Province, and it is end. : courageous thing to ~ to do, bring an end to : misery and suffering ldministration's opposition 1d to the other provinces :ss community and the Mr. Speaker.

Their cties in the last five he Newfoundland economy and 3uffering to the people Lme it was brought to an And 1r. Speaker, let me remind hon. members there opposite there by virtue of the fact in 1982 in a one promise el only, and that promise was agreement. The promise was the Newfoundland Appeals Co Supreme Court, the promise agreement.

And up to now, As a matter of fact,they do of that promise any more. honesty, with straight face that they are reneging on t the people of this Province to hang tough while they th luxury down in Tiffany Towe 31 6- 1at they are only sitting 1at they went to the people ~ion, they made one promise negotiate an offshore Jt to put the matter before _, or to fight it in the :y made was to negotiate an . Speaker, they have failed. Jt want to see or hear tell v can they sit there in all day in and day out, knowing promise that they made to They are asking the people 3elves live in the laps of in a rent-free apartment,

May 2, 1984 Tape 1203 NM - 2 MR . NEARY: the Minister of Transportation (Mr . Dawe) and the Premier charter planes at public expense to take them home on weekends, $1500 and $1600 for a charter . SOME HON . t-1EMBERS : Oh, oh! Order, p lease ~ MR. SPEAKER (Aylward)~ MR . NEARY : Hang tough, they are saying . While the Minister of Developmen~ (Mr . Windsor) jaunts around the world and lives in the laps of luxury in posh hotels in Europe and in the United States , while the unemployed back home are asked to hang tough . SOME HON . ME~.BERS : Oh, oh ! MR . NEARY : He •11ill do as much as he wants to .

We know what they are doing , Mr. Speaker . We know the arrogance of hon . gentlemen there opposite, their dictatorial attitude. Mr . Speaker, I make one last appeal to the hon . gentleman, and I say that the people of this Province are fed up with hearing about the oil. The Premier has oil on the brain and the people are fed up \.,.ith it . All the other industries in Newfoundland have been neglected ; the woods operations, the pulp and paper industry, the mining industry, the inshore fishery, the construction industry, all have been neglected . They have oil on the. brain. You would not know • 3168

May 2, 1984 Tape 1204 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: but they had oil for breakfast, dinner and supper and they dream about oil, Mr. Speaker. And it is about time that they faced up to their responsibilities. MR. TOBIN: You do not want Newfoundland to gain anything by it. MR. NEARY: 'You do not want Newfoundland to gain anything by it.' Listen to the trained seal over there. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. TOBIN: Tell us about the time you had dinner on St. Pierre. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the rudeness and the arrogance of han. gentlemen there opposite is something to behold, is it not? MR. TOBIN: St. Pierre.

MR. mARY: Tell us about the dinner at I will tell the hon. gentleman a few things about himself if he wants me to, Mr. Speaker. MR. TOBIN: Tell us about the dinner at St. Pierre. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman should forget his rudeness; the people down on the Burin Peninsula are pretty angry and upset with the han. gentleman's rudeness in this House and his rudeness in the Province. And the han. gentleman is getting - he is not getting, he has a reputation of being the most rude member in this han. House, Sir. MR. TOBIN: St. Pierre. MR. NEARY: Dorothy Dicks.

Tell us about the dinner at He should go take a course from 3169

May 2, 1984 Tape 1204 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: Now,"Mr. Speaker, I can only make one last appeal to the hon. gentlemen there opposite because people are fed up with hearing about oil, The~ want to know about the fishery. What about th e fishery? What about the inshore fishermen? what about Gander? What about Corner Brook? What about Labrador West? What about Bell Island? The y turned their backs on Bell Island during the sleet storm, Mr. Speaker. MR. TOB IN: You turned your back on Bell Island, did you not? MR. NEARY: This is what they want to know. They want to know abou~ these problems. MR.

SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! The hon . member's time has elapsed. MR. NEARY: Thank you, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: Before recognizing the han. minister , I would like to welcome to the gallery the Deputy Mayor from Labrador City, Mr. A. Snow, and the Town Manager from Labrador City 1 Mr. c. Vincent. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: and Youth. MR. SIMMS: Hear, hear! The han. Minister of Culture, Recreation Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I was somewhat hesistant,as a matter of fact,in participating in the debate today because we had numerous members on this side of the House who wanted to participate in the debate and to re-emphasize the positions that have been taken by this government with respect to this issue in the last couple of years in particular. But having heard the silliness coming from the mouths of the people on the opposite side 1 in particular the most recent speaker, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary), I can only say, Mr. Speaker, that that particular member has a 3170

May 2, 1984 Tape 1204 PK - 3 MR. SIMMS : tremendous amount of gall to stand up in this Legislature and to us~ the tactics that he is using 1 to use descript .ions that are considered 1 and can only be considered to be silly , wrong, incorrect, of no substance , hypocritical, and I can think of all kinds of terms, Mr . Speaker, to describe the kind of argument put 31 71

May 2, 1984, Tape 1205, Page l -- apb MR. SIMMS: forth by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition(Mr. Neary). It is obvious to anybody, Mr. Speaker, I guess, who is observing the debates in the House - MR .. NEARY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(McNioholas): the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: A point of order, the hon. Mr. Speaker, I believe that the hon. gentleman, who is a former Speaker of this House, should be well aware, indeed he should be more aware than anybody else in this House, that you cannot use unparliamentary language in this House. 'Hypocritical' is an unparliamentary term, Mr.

Speaker, and I ask Your Honour to direct the han. gentleman to withdraw that word and apologize to the House for his rudeness. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. SIMMS: The han. the Minister of I would submit to Your Honour that what I used in the debate was the term that his remarks were hypocritical~ I recognize that to call an individual parliamentarian a hypocrite is unparliamentary, and I would not do it, but there is nothing unparliamentary about arguing that an individual's remarks are hypocritical. And I would submit, Mr.

Speaker, that the best that the han. the Leader of the Opposition has put forth in this point of order is that it is perhaps a difference of opinion but certainly not a point of order. MR. NEARY: order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Opposition. Further to that point of The han. the Leader of the 3172

May 2, 1984, Tape 1205, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: It is well known in this House, Mr. Speaker, that you cannot say via the backdoor what you cannot say through the front door. And I would submit that the hon. gentleman is completely out of order when he uses that term. It is unparliamentary. The han. and sanctimonious former Speaker of the House should have better sense. It can do noth~ng but lower the decorum of the House. And I believe that Your Honour is obliged to direct the minister to withdraw his unparliamentary and rude remarks and apologize to the House for making such unparliamentary statements. MR.

SIMMS: MR. SPEAKER(McNicholas): Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker. The han. the Minister of To ~elp Your Honour, if I may, just one further point. If Your Honour would refer to Beauchesne, Fifth Edition, page 110, the bottom of the page,

section 3, it says: "Since 1958, it has been ruled parliamentary to use the following expressions:" And if Your Honour will then turn over to page 112, he will see that the term 'hypocrisy', 'hypocrites',in fact, have been ruled parliamentary in debates held December 20, 1975, and October 25, 1966. So again, Your Honour, I would suggest that to refer to a member's comments as being hypocritical comments is certainly not unparliamentary, but I recognize that if you were to call somebody a hypocrite, which I would not do, that would be unparliamentary, and I did not do that.

I .suggest , Your Honour, that there is nothing here only a difference of opinion and the hon. the Leader of the Opposition0Mr. Neary) is concerned about the stinging attack that I am about to make on his debate and he is just trying to waste the time of the House and my time. MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Speaker, I am not concerned about the stinging attack at all, but I am 3173

May 2, 1984, Tape 1205, Page 3 --apb MR. NEARY: of this House. MR. SIMMS: MR. NEARY: here in front of me. concerned about the decorum Read your references. Yes, I have the reference So far in this session, Mr. Speaker, we have had nothing but insults and personal attacks from han. gentlemen there opposite. One day in the House we thought we would have to start wearing hard hats, when things were being flicked across the House. MR. SIMMS: Stick to this point. MR. NEARY: Yes, I am sticking to this Point. MR. SIMMS: Cite a reference. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, the fact of the matter is that the Chair in this House, and I believe the han. gentleman when he was sitting in the Chair, and his successors, right up to the present time, have ruled that 'hypocrisy' ,'hypocrites', and'hypocrite' are unparliamentary. Now, if Your Honour rules today that you can use that word in this han. House, well, that will create a precedent. MR. TOBIN: He did not say you were a hypocrite. DR. COLLINS: You are not threatening His Honour? MR. NEARY: No, I am not threatening His Honour, I am just saying it will be something new, Mr. Speaker. MR. TOBIN: anyway. MR.

NEARY: We all know what you are, Now, I could understand the member for Burin -Placentia West(Mr. Tobin) using that kind of word, because he has a reputation for being uncouth. 3174

May 2, 1984, Tape 1205, Page 4 -- apb MR. TOBIN: that in describing you. MR. SPEAKER(McNicholas) : 3175 I would use worse than Order, please!

May 2, 1984 Tape No. l206 MJ - 1 MR. NEARY: He has a reputation of being uncouth, Mr. Speaker, and has no finesse,but the hon. minLster who is now speaking does have a little finesse, is a former Speaker who should know the difference, and all the hon. gentleman can do is to lower the decorum of this House. If it is going to be a name slinging contest,or if we are going to start hurling insults back and forth across the House , sobeit.

But I believe Your Honour has a duty and an obligation to see to it that all unparliamentary language is ruled out of order and in this case the han. gentleman has used an unparliamentary word and the hon. gentleman should, man-fashion, he should be man enough 1 as former Speaker of this House, to admit he was wrong and apologize to the House. MR. SH1MS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas) Recreation and Youth. MR. SIMMS: · The hon. the Hinister of Culture, Mr.

Speaker, I will not let this particular matter rest because a precedent could be in the making here,and I think it is important that the Chair and the members of the House understand the words that I used in the debate. I sincerely believe .- I do not want to question the integrity of the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) - but I sincerely believe he knows the difference in this particular point. I did not refer to the hon. the Leader of the Opposition as a hypocrite. I referred MR. NEARY: It is the same thing. MR. S I!-f...MS : No, it is not, Mr. Speaker. That is precisely the point.

There are lots of words, Mr. Speaker, I submit,that are unparliamentary words,but if you use them in a certain context they certainly are not unparliamentary. So it is .silly to say a word is unparliamentary. Again to assist Your Honour 1 I notice the Leader of the Opposition in his argument has never put forth any references or anything 3176

..,.. May 2, 1984 Tape No. 1206 MJ- 2 MR. SIMMS: else in any of his debate, it is simply a tactic by him, knowing that on Private ~1ernber's Day every member has only twenty minutes to debate a particular issue,and he is concerned,of course 1that I am about to put forth some arguments and facts to counter those that he put forth, he does not want to hear them, he is trying to waste my time,and I would suggest to Your Honour that you refer, in addition to the reference I gave Your Honour earlier on page 112,where it has been ruled parliamentary to use the word 'hypocrisy', I also refer to page 114 of Beauchesne's Fifth Edition, paragraph 324, under UNPARLIAMENTARY LANGUAGE where it says, "

(1) It is impossible to lay down any specific rules in regard to injurious reflections uttered in debate against particular Members, or to declare beforehand what expressions are or are not contrary to order; much depends upon the tone and manner, and intention". MR. NEARY: Right on. MR. SIMMS: Section (2) say~ Mr. Speaker, to shoot down the Leader of the Opposition's (Mr.

Neary) argument about the word 'hypocrisy' being ruled unparliamentary many times before in this House, Section (2) says, "An expression which is deemed to be unparliamentary today does not necessarily have to be deemed unparliamentary next week." And that comes from Debates of Hansard, July 23, 1955. So I suggest, Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition once again is simply trying to waste my time and does not have a valid case and I suggest as well that he knows it. MR. NEARY: A final submission, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (MCNicholas): Order, please! I have heard enough argument on this.

I am quite satisfied that the remark; MR. NEARY: No final submission? MR. SPEAKER: No. 3177

t1ay 2, 1984 Tape No. 1206 MJ -3 MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas) : 'hypocritical comments' that was referred to \o~as not out o£ order. I call on the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. !~R. NEARY: That is something new. MR. SUtMS: Thank you, Mr. SpeakeriJ You are upholding the traditions qf this hon. House and I am pleased to see that you have done so. 3175

May 2, 1984 Tape 1207 EC - l MR. S n~1s : So to repeat then, Mr . Speaker, what I said, What gall from the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) ! What gall! His remarks ~vere nothing but silliness! His remarks were totally hypocritical! His remarks were, in my opinion, insincere. I do not think he was really sincere in what he was having to say. And I do not say that in a derogatory fashion or to question his sincerity, but they were silly. There were a lot of incorrect comments made during his arguments. Everybody recognized them. Everybody in the Province recognizes them.

Everywhere he goes in the Province, everybody recognizes that his arguments are very, very weak. I think it is obvious, Mr. Speaker, that the member for LaPoile is in a tremendous amount of trouble in the district of LaPoile and he is using every tactic that he can to try to get some coverage or to try to hide from the fact that the people in his district cannot find him anywhere. MR. TOBIN: He is looking for a district to run in. MR. SIMMS: He is over there now and they refer to him as 'Steve Who'. That is the latest word that I get. The other thing I notice, Mr.

Speaker, in the arguments put forth by the Leader of the Opposition - and you frequently see it, anybody who observes the debate in this han. House will frequently see it - he lacks substance in any of his arguments, totally lacks substance. So what tactic does he then take? What tactic does he then take when he has no substance? Well, Mr. Speaker, he uses his usual tactics, 3179

May 2, 1984 Tape 1207 EC - 2 MR. SD1MS: innuendo, sensationalism and, of course, the ultimate weapon in the Leader of the Opposition's (Mr. Neary) debate performance usually deals with personal attacks - personal attacks on ministers, on members on this side, but particularly, of course, on the leader of the government. Well, Mr. Speaker, I remember very, very well, a little over two years ago, I remember very, very well those same tactics being employed by the Leader of the Opposition's predecessor. And we know what happened to him in April, 1982, Mr. Speaker, as a result of his employing those tactics. MR.

NEARY: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Dr. McNicholas): On a point of order, the han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman is making incorrect statements - MR. TULK: Falsehoods. MR. NEARY: - uttering falsehoods in this House. And I believe if the han. gentleman is to give any credibility to his argument, Mr. Speaker, that he should give the House an example of a personal attack that I have made on the Premier. I challenge the han. gentleman to give the House one example of a personal attack that I made on the Premier or any minister in that administration.

Now, ftr. Speaker, if the han. gentleman cannot do it, then what he should do is withdraw and apologize to the House. Now, 'getting a rent-free apartment' is not a personal attack, that is taxpayers' money, or 'a minister chartering a plane at public expense', that is taxpayers' money, that is not a personal attack. Now, if that is what the hon. gentleman means by a personal attack, then he should 3180

-· May 2, 1984 Tape 1207 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: get up and apologize to the House, because the han. gentleman knows the difference, that I have not made any personal attacks on anybody on that side of the House, including the han. gentleman. ·And he should be man enough to get up and admit that and apologize to the House. MR. TOBIN: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Dr. HcNicholas) : To that point of order, the han. the member for Burin - Placentia West. MR. TOBIN: To that point of order, I submit to Your Honour that there is no point of order, it is certainly a difference between two han. gentlemen.

The Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Hr. Simms) is standing here in the House today defending the position that he has taken by citing examples of the way the member for the district of LaPoile, the Leader of the Opposition (Hr. NeaFy) has been conducting himself in this House. Everything that the minister has said, I submit, Your Honour, is indeed true and factual and there is no point of order whatsoever, It is certainly a difference between two han. gentlemen. MR. NEARY: responding to · that. MR.

SPEAKER: I would not waste my time To that point of order, there is no point of order, it is a difference of opinion between two han. members. SOHE HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMS: Hr. Speaker, that is certainly very, very accurate. We will let the people of the Province be the judge of the accusation that I made, and time will tell. The Leader of the 3181

May 2, 1984 Tape No. 1208 SD - 1 MR. SIMMS: Opposition (Mr. Neary) expects that that time will come this Fall. I hope it does, but I have a funny feeling it will not come for a little while because, first of all, the Liberal Party of Newfoundland and Labrador, of course, are in the midst of a provincial leadership campaign. I do not know if everybody has forgotten about that. The provincial Liberal Party of Newfoundland and Labrador called a leadership campaign in October of 1983, seven months ago. And, Mr. Speaker, to this point in time, of course, they do not even have a candidate.

A seven month leadership campaign underway and not even a candidate. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker. Order, please! To that point of order, the hon. r-1R. NEARY: I hate to be continuously raising points of order to try to correct the han. gentleman and keep him on trac~. He just made a statement that the Liberal Party · of Newfoundland and LaDrador called a leadership convention for October 19..83. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is completely false and untrue. MR ·. SIMMS: MR. SPEAKER: A point of privilege, Hr. Speaker. A point of privilege, the hon.

Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, I expected that the Leader of the Opposition would have listened a little more closely. Obviously he did not hear what I had to say in the earlier points of order that he raised 1 but I consider it to be a breach of privilege to suggest that I said something that I did not say. I did not say that they called a leadership convention for OctoDer of 1 83. I said, •Last October they called a leadership convention.' HR. NEARY: Seven months ago. 3182

May 2, 1984 Tape No. 1208 SD - 2 MR. SIMMS: That is right, seven months ago, and so you did. I submit there is a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker, and no point of order. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): I do not think there is a point of privilege to discuss. To the point of order, it is a difference of opinion between two han. gentlemen. Recreation and Youth. MR . S I:M.MS : The han. Minister of Culture, Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Again the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) has been ruled out of order, incorrect, wrong, silly and continues to use hypocritical remarks and I guess he will continue to do so. Anyway, Mr.

Speaker, I do not know how much time I have left, probably not very much. The Leader of the Opposition knows· there is only b;enty minutes of speaking time, I say this for the benefit of anybody who might be listening 1 on a Private Member's resolution. MR. NEARY: By leave. MR. SIMMS·: Oh., good, Mr. Speaker. ~hank you very much: MR. NEARY: We will give you enough time. MR. SIMMS: I have not gotten into the speech at all yet on what I was going to say. The Leader of the Opposition referred in the opening of his debate, in his remarks, to the resolution.

Now this resolution was put forth by the non­ elected Liberal, an aspirant, I guess, to that leadership of the Liberal Party opposite. I sincerely hope he is not successful,quite frankly. I sincerely hooP. that the Liberal Party of Newfoundland and Labrador will see fit to keep the present Leader of the Opposition. I disagree 3183

May 2, 1984 Tape No. 1208 SD - 3 MR. SIHMS: with the President of the Council (Mr. Harshall) on this "'ho wants to see the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) sent to the Senate. I want to see the Leader of the Opposition stay on in his role as Leader of the Liberal Party of Newfoundland and Labrador. And I shall do everything in "1Y power, Mr. Speaker, to see that he does do just that. Anyway, this resolution was drafted by his new-found friend and colleague1the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry).

And he refers in the resolution, of course. to some of the whereases, so let us refer to some of the whereases in the resolution. Now he talks about the Supreme Court of Canada has recently ruled in favour of the federal government -we all know that, there is no argument with that part of the

whereas. 'AND

WHEREAS this followed a decision of the Newfoundland Court of Appeal which was brought prematurely to the court and was not properly prepared' -the member for Mount Scio has the gall to put that in writing in his resolution. The gall! Mr. Speaker, the member for Mount Scio has been quoted -it is in Hansard, it has been made public - as saying that we had absolutely no choice in referring that particular matter to the courts. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear. MR. SIMMS: Now he says in his resolution, It 'was brought prematurely". More hypocritical remarks, Mr. Speaker. It must be flowing, oozing.

Perhaps the Leader of the Opposition has picked it up from the member for Mount Scio. 'WHEREAS the Premier nas indicated that he intends to keep on fighting' -well,I certainly hope he does, Mr. Speaker, and I know that everybody on this side of the House hopes he does and I think that everybody 31 B i+

May 2, 1984 Tape 1209 NM - 1 MR. SIMMS: in the Province hopes that he will keep on fighting, But the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Russell) tried to ridicule that, talked about him on his speaking tour, what a waste of time, yet his own colleague, the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) a few weeks ago wanted to go with him. Now if that is not hypocritical remarks, Mr. Speaker, I do not know what are. Here is the interesting one. 'WHEREAS recent polls created great doubt whether the Progressive Conservative Party will form the Government of Canada after the next election.' AN HON. MEMBER: Very recent. MR.

SIMMS: Very recent, but when this was drafted, Mr. Speaker, I submit to you that the polls indicated at that time that the Tory Party was slipping and that the Liberal Party was coming up a little bit. That is what was there when he submitted this. Three weeks ago,though, after the last poll, it indicated the Tory Party had made a considerable jump and 1of co~rse, that argument would not have held any water at all.

Now, because of some typographical error, I suspect 1they would walk into the House of Assembly wearing red roses, because Gallup has made a typographical 8rror and suqgested that the Liberal Party has made a turnaround, the first time in sixteen years that Gallup has ever made such a major change 1 they are allexcited and elated over it. But just wait, Mr. Speaker, until June 1 when next Gallup Pollresults come down in the heat and miast of the Liberal Leadership Convention and we will see what will happen. 3185

May 2, 1984 Tape 1209 NM - 2 MR. SIMMS: And then, 'WHEREAS the Federal Minister of Energy has indicated a willingness to immediately recommence negotiations with the Government of this Province on offshore resources.' Well, Mr. Speaker, when did he do that? When did he indicate a willingness to immediately resume negotiations? We wrote him a letter a year and a half ago, he has not even replied to it. We were the ones who put the points on the table, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Chretien could not deliver on those points, subsequently he could not even respond to the letter or reply to the letter.

So there is certainly no indication from the Federal Minister of Energy to this Government that he is willing to sit down and discuss and debate the offshore issue. Well, Mr. Speaker, let me then just conclude,because I only have time to conclude, that was the resolution that has since - MR. CALLAN: By leave. By leave. MR. SIMMS: I thank the hon. member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan). That was the resolution that has since been amended by my friend from St. John's North (Mr.

Carter) and the amendment reads - now that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr~ Neary) has read the resolution which is no longer in effect because actually we are debating the ame~dment,not the resolution- the amendment reads­ "Delete all the words after the second "WHEREAS" - which we agreed with, there is no problem with that, there is no problem with that- and substitute the following, "THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that this House condemn the federal government 3186

May 2, 1984 Tape 1209 NM - 3 MR. SIMMS: for weakening our bargaining position through its approach to the offshore issue; and BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED" . MR. CAL .LA.~: Nho moyed the amendmen.t? MR . SIM.MS: It was not the me .mber for Mount Scio (Mr. Barrry), but you would not know it by reading it because it sounds like something he said two years ago. "BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that this House demand that the federal government reconsider its present position on the offshore question ." Mr.

Speaker I submit that this amendment is a reasonable amendment, a strong amendment, one that members opposite will have no difficulty agreeing with, and I would urge that they consider seriously the views of the people of the districts that they represent, and if they do that, Mr . Speaker, they will have no 3187

May 2, 1984 Tape 1210 PK - l MR. SIMMS: choice but to support this amendment and to defeat the resolution that was not ably presented by the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry). SOME HON. MEMBERS: l"iR. DINN: MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas) : MR. TULK: Hear, hear! What a man! The hon. member for Fogo. Mr. Speaker, in speaking to this amendment let me ,first of all 1 deal with some of the comments that were made by the member for Grand Falls, the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Simms) ~~here wascnly one part of his speech that I found entertaining.

I found that none of what he said really showed any knowledge of what he was talking about, but I found one part of his speech entertaining, namely the - MR. PEACH: we are not here to entertain you. MR. TULK: Well,you would swear that the member for Grand Falls was here to entertain according to his speech. MR. SIMMS: Neary} interrupted me. MR. TULK: The ~eader of the Opposition (Mr. I only find one part of it entertaining, no information in any of the ' rest.

I find it entertaining that the member for Grand Falls would mention the latest Gallup Poll and try to attribute as he said at one time, the decline of the Tory Party, tLe indication, the trend - , there that the Tory Party was slip:>i:r:g. Then he Eext said it was a typ~graphical error what had happened in the Last month. I tinct that amusing, and only somebody with a sense of humour like the member for Grand Falls could come up with such nonsense. I want to suggest to him that in June the trend will be there, the trend that he is looking for. 3188

May 2, 1984 Tape 1210 PK - 2 MR. TULK: But I want to come to some of the other things he said. He really said nothing about why the government has the position that it has. MR. SIMMS: I never had a chance. MR. TULK: You did not have a chance~ He was given leave on two occasions, Mr. Speaker, to go on and to sa~ whatever he wanted to say. The fact is he had nothing to say in any case. But he did show us the prime example of this government's approach to problems in the Province. He did show us that.

He showed us that they cover up their own inadequacies by talking about what seats they hold, what seats they are going to hold 1 by talking about the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary)being in danger in his seat, as if that was of great importance, and it probably is because the member for LaPoile is the watchdog in many cases, of the public purse in this Province. But that is all he can talk about is if somebody is going to lose his seat. He talks about the provincial leadership c'onvention of the Liberal Party.

And he had the gall to say that the Premier would not call an election this Fall because we would probably be in the middle of a leadership convention. Now, Mr. Speaker, I would like to take him back, I believe it was in 1979, and tell him how famous the Premier is for pulling .my dirty little ..,..oli tical tricks that he can pull out of a hat,namely calling eiections when there are leadership conventions on. We would not be surprised.

I also want to question the member for Grand Falls who is continually in this House questioning the Chair, as if he still believes he is the sole authority on parliamentary procedures in Newfoundland. Well, Mr. Speaker, that type of thing is not becoming of a former Speaker, and it is certainly not becoming of a minister of the Crown. 3189

May 2, 1984 Tape 1210 PK - 3 MR. TULK: He speaks about Mr. Chretien not offering to get back to the negotiating table. I guess Mr. Chretien,following the line that has been so firmly established by this government , by the crew that he is negotiating with on the other side - i 3190

May 2,1984 Tape No. 1211 ah-1 MR.TULK: do not run off; I want to educate you in one little thing and then you can leave_ But in any case the member for Grand Falls-Nhite Bay­ Labrador is obviously wrong, completely wrong. MR.SIMMS: MR.TULK: Grand Falls-White Bay-Labrador. No, you are not running for Grand Falls- White Bay -Labrador. Now do not go after the guy for Menihek (Mr.Walsh). Do not go after him. ~1R.TOBIN: Grand Falls- White Bay - Labrador you said. MR.TULK: But he is not running~ negotiations are over, he chickened out. Do you not know he chickened out?

Are you not informed of what is happening over there? It is over. They did the poll and they found they could not win it. But in any case let me take the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Simms) to Mr. Chretien's offer. St. John's, Newfoundland - in the same way the Premier does his negotiations St. John's, Newfoundland, April 5, 19B4,entitled'Statement by the Han. Jean Chretien on Newfoundland and the offshore.' I will send -him a copy if he wants to read it. Does the federal Minister of Energy (Mr. Chretien) offer to get back to the negotiating table? Let me read what he said.

"I am ready to meet the provincial government at any time. They walked away from the table and I look forward to their return 11 to the negotiating tabLe. !1R. SIHMS: MR.TULK: Who is that addressed to? That is a press release made by the federal Minister of Energy in St. John's, Newfoundland MR.SIMMS: Why did he not write us? 3191

May 2,1984 Tape No. 1211 ah-2 MR.TULK: - following the trend that has been so firmly established by this government. So take that, that is your hodgepodge of ideas that you put together to try to cover . up your own inadequacies again. But why do you not get back to the negotiating table? Why do they not?

It is very obvious why not' Because this government has survived on confrontation, it has survived on the ability to bring red herrings into the political process and to try to stir up the red blood of Newfoundlanders and tell them that some part of Canada ,or some part of the world or some part of Newfoundland is'going to take away your rights to exist as a human being.' That is what this government has survived on. The member for Placentia (Mr. Patterson) knows that is what they have survived on.

They know that is what they have survived on. ·They have brought forward this idea tbat if you speak against their position you are a traitor. They have used it very well politically- no argument~- but what have they done to Newfoundland in the process? What have .. they done to our Newfoundland economy in the process? What have they done to our Newfoundland people? What have they done to building a better nation in this country, this nation called Canada? What have they done?

Only last week at an NTA convention I spoke to two good PC friends of mine and one of them looked at me and said, 'You know I am ready to separate from Canada.' A teacher said that. And it has been brought on by the approach of this government to negotiations with the federal government, in particular to negotiations on the offshore. And that, Mr. Speaker, may be in the final process. Regardless of what we get from the offshore or what we get from the fisheries 3192

May 2,1984 Tape No . 1211 ah- 3 MR. TULK: or anything e l se , that may be the greatest damage that this government .has done to Newfoundland, to perhaps build a feeling of separtism . And I do not think they did it intentionally , I do not believe that the Premier is a separatist 1 I do not believe that and I do not believe that anybody on that side of the House is . But the feeling 3193

May 2, 1984 Tape 1212 EC - 1 MR. TULK: is there, and it has been created by the bogeyman of trying to bring in that everybody outside of the forty-three members other than the Premier who sit on that side of the House are traitors to Newfoundland. That is what this government has done. That is its legacy, that is what it has done to Newfoundland and Newfoundlanders. SOHE HON . HEHBERS : How? How? MR. TULK: By the kind of approach you have taken to negotiations on anything~ it has not been negoti- ation at all, it has been confrontation. MR.

TOBIN: It is certainly not the approach that your party has taken, that of giving everything away, there is that about it. MR. TULK: Speaking of giving away, I would ask the member for Burin - Placentia ~'lest (Mr. Tobin) where he was in 1966. I would also ask him where some of the members on that side of the House were. Theywere sitting in this House, he was not, but some of the members were. And they voted for an agreement - MR. MARSHALL: Who? MR. TULK: I do not believe it was the Minister of Energy (Mr.

Marshall), but they voted for an agreement that now, with hindsight, we all know was a bad agreement for Newfoundland. But it was a unanimous decision of this House that that agreement be signed and they cannot deny that. Now, they have developed - and we see this particularly in the Minister of Energy and, I suggest, the Minister of·Finance (Dr. Collins) - they have developed a paranoia among themselves that makes them afraid to sit down at the table to do any kind of negotiating or to sign any deal for fear that somewhere down the road somebody would look at them and 3194

May 2, 1984 Tape 1212 EC - 2 MR. TULK: say, 'Well, Marshall, Collins and Peckford really made~ mess of it.' And that is where we find ourselves in Newfoundland. Mr. Speaker, I want to get to the resolution itself, to the amendment.

In speaking to the amendment, I would like to use the resolution to say why I am opposed to the amendment, because the amendment is nothing more or less than just another red herring brought in to condemn somebody else- it does not matter who, it could be in the federal government, it could be Nova Scotia, if not Nova Scotia, it could be Quebec, or it could be the Fishermen's Union or the Teachers' union; like the attack we saw yesterday evening by the member for Conception Bay South (Mr.

Butt) putting the NTA in the kind of position he knows it is not in, and trying to cover up his own government's inaction by making them appear as rabble-rousers and so on. Now, Mr. Speaker, getting to the resolution and why I am going to vote against the amendment: "WHEREAS the Supreme Court of Canada has recently decided in favour of the Federal Government concerning ownership and jurisdiction of offshore resources;" Well, Mr.

Speaker, that is obviously correct, there can be no argument anywhere in this world, anywhere in the courts, that the federal government, that Canada, as a whole, does now own the offshore. That has been settled, and the only way that it can be changed, I suppose, is thro _ugh a constitutional amendment and that, in the long run, may be possible through, perhaps, a different government. I doubt that it is possible for this government that sits on the other side. MR. POWER: Not with the Liberals Up-along. 3195

May 2, 1984 Tape 121 2 EC - 3 MR . TULK : Now , we will come to Liberals Up -along, we \Y"ill get to that, and we will ask the ll1inister of For est Resources and Land s (Mr . PmY"er) to run off to Ottawa and get John Crosbie 's position and Jim McGrath 's position reconciled so that everybody in Ne\Y"foundland knows where the Tory Gove rnment stands . We \vould ask him to run off to his Tory buddies in Ottawa and get t-1r . Mulroney 's pes i tion . The word from a very well -known minister in Nova Scotia is - MR . POWER : And Turner 's po~ition? MR .

TULK : NO\ol , if the hen . member will be quiet , I will try to educate him . I do not want his hair to move , I do not want him to get upset, but I will try to educate him . 3196

May 2, 1984, Tape 1213, Page 1 -- apb MR. TULK: If he would go and talk some of his counterparts in other provincial guvernments in this country he would be told that his hope for a future Prime Minister - the hopes are fading - who is afraid to go into British Columbia, he cannot go there because of the inconsistencies of his policy and his caucus and his hope for government, his side, his party, he cannot go into Manitoba because they have no solid position. Now he is afraid to go to Nova Scotia. MR. POWER: !•J"= want to talk about the issuE'S and you are talking politics an0. you a.re talking nonsense. MR.

TULK: Well, you asked me to explain it to you and I am doing it. The word is that he is now a~raid to come to Newfoundland. He cannot come to Newfoundland because he has no position on the issue, and that is what we are talking about. MR. POWER: Therefore ~oJe are sunnose to turn to Turner? MR. TULK: Now, Mr. Speaker, I would like to get back to that, but when you are interrupted by the inanities of that man over there, the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands(Mr. Power), who has so many problems on his'plate that perhaps he should not be in the .

House, he should be down trying to do something with Bowater, when you are interrupted by those inanities you tend to stray, Mr. Speaker. The Premier has taken care of what we are going to get from the offshore. The Premier has laid us at the merc7 of both the federal and the provincial Liberal Party, he has laid us at the mercy of the federal Tory Party, and he has laid us at the mercy of that party. There is absolutely nothing that the Premier can do except trust to the good will of Upper Canadians and of the upper levels of government in this country, the ,...,.n.., J I 'd I

May 2, 1984, Tape 1213, Page 2 -- apb MR. TULK: federal government. In a rash and mad fit he pushed this thing into the Supreme Court.

In his inability to negotiate,because of his paranoia, afraid that he is going to give something away, because of his desire to rouse the blood of Newfoundlanders for his own political purposes, to pit them against any­ body, it does not matter who, it does not matter who he pits them against, the Premier has taken care of the fact that Newfoundland does not own the offshore, and has taken care of the fact that unless somebody else 1 out of generosity, at this point, agrees that we should have a good deal on t~e offshore, then we can no longer gain it. Mr.

Speaker, the serious problem, the serious thipg is that the Premier could have indeed used some .people that he had with him, used some people who are not as paranoid as the Minister of Energy lMr. Marshall), who did have an agreement with the federal minister, until a guy in a room across the street, watching with his opera glasses, saw him smile and then went over and pulled the rug out from under him. By using his brain, by adopting certain positions as negotiating positions rather than creating pre-conditions, the Premier of this Province could have had, I believe, a good agreement for Newfoundland.

I believe it is still abailable to him, if he would just go back to the bargaining table rather than saying, Before we come back, here are the positions. I think that lengthy telex he sent is here in my desk somewhere. It is so asinine to think that you are going back to the bargaining table and, before you get back, know exactly what you are going to get. That is completely asinine. Surely there may be good positions to go back to the bargai~ing table with, and you obviously always build in more than you hope to get if you, 3198

May 2, 1984 MR. TULK: Tape No. 1214 NM - 1 When you are negotiating before you got to the bargaining table, but you do not do it publicly. You do not send off seventeen or twenty-seven, whatever it is, we loose track of the numbers, the number of things that you hope to gain, you do not put that out publicly, you do not do that if you are trying to negotiate. You set a position that you hope to get and somewhere it is in the middle of the negotiating process, somewhere it is in the middle of what you state to your opponent the first time and what you hope to get.

Surely that is the way to do it rather than the way that this government has carried on. Surely that is the way to do it. So, Mr. Speaker, we see the Premier saying that he is going to keep on fighting, that he is going to ao across Canada to convince Canadians that we need a constitutional change or that we need a bilateral agreement. There is nobody who could argue with that. Somebody brought up just now on the other side the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) __ saying why did they not take other people along with him.

Again theEe is an indicati9n 0 A few years ago,when the member for Mount Scio was the Minister of Energy 1that was possible. Because I remember quite clearly as a member of this House in 1980 sittinq ~own and listening to the member for Mount Scio say that in a giant conference that both parties held to acquaint ourselves with the position of Newfoundland on the offshore~ but it is not possible any more. Because the Premier and the Minister of Energy (Mr.

Marshall), in their mad quest to be the saviours of Newfoundland nationhood and nationalism, in their mad quest to do that, in their mad quest to be the saviours of Newfoundland's nation­ hood, trying to stir up the red blood of Newfoundlanders, 3199

May 2, 1984 Tape No. 1214 NM - 2 MR. TULK: in their mad quest to do that they do not want to see anybody else engaged in the process of getting a settlement for Newfoundland. It has to be on their terms and to their credit, and they have to have the power and the glory and all that there is to come. And that is what has brought us to the state that we are in, Mr. Speaker 1 They want the political limelight and anybody else who suggests any other ~ethod of doing what is good for Newfoundland are called traitors, non-Newfoundlanders, are called the lapdogs of Ottawa - MR. NEARY: Handmaidens. MR.

TULK: - the handmaidens of Ottawa. I wish the minister would invent some other terms because they are getting rather boring. HR. NEARY: MR. TULK: They are tired and worn out. They are tired and worn out. Mr. Speaker, we have not seen this government hammering out a settlement. We have not seen them trying to do anything with that at all and it is very obvious that the need for a settlement in Newfoudland is there. We have the highest unemployment rate in Canada. We have the highest unemployment rate among young people in Canada. I think it is ·43 per cent, is it not, for young people in Newfoundland .?

We have young people who are desperate for jobs and yet we get the Minister of Energy in this Province afraid he is going to overheat the economy. Mr. Speaker, my time is up but the real truth is that the government is running a colossal bluff and they are keeping up their buster and their bluff to cover up their own incompetence, their own inability to do anything in this Province. 3200

May 2, 1984 Tape No. 1214 NM - 3 MR . TIJLK : I heard it said for a number of years of the Moores' Government , I was a teacher, that the government of that day were acting as if they •.·1ere still in Opposition, they had an opposition mentality, and that mentality is still on that side of the aouse. It is sti ll on that side of the House and they cannot take a positive approach to anything . MR . CARTER: A point of order , Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! Order, please! The hon. member for st . John 's No rth on a point of order . MR .

CARTER: A point of order; the hon. gentleman 's time is up and he should sit dotvn. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please ! The Chair will have to decide when the hon . member 's time is up. MR . TIJLK : That is right . He is jus1: a general nuisance . Mr . Speaker , I believe my time is up and I would urge this government to realize that they are the governmen t. r would appeal to them to act 32 01

May 2, 1984 Tape No. 1215 SD - 1 ML~. TULK: as a government, to use their brains rather than their swords, rather than their hot words 1 and end the miser y of Newfoundlanders and get back to the negotiating table and sign an agreement that is beneficial to Newfoundland. MR. NEARY: MR. PEACH: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. PEACH: Hear, hear. Mr. Speaker. The han. member for Carbonear. Hear, hear. Thank you very much. I just want to ~ake a few brief oomments on the amendment to the resolution that we have here today and to follow up on a few points that my colleague, the member for Grand Falls (Hr.

Simms),made and as well some of the comments that have been passed across the House from some of the members opposite. It seemed rather ironic that the member who made the initial resolution was not available to be in the House today and that at the beginning the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) had to get up and apologize for him. It seems apparent over the last couple of days that the Leader of the Opposition has been doing quite a lot of sulking and squirming over there in his seat. As the member for Grand Falls indicated, he is probably in a lot of trouble in his own district. Well 1 I am not one, Mr.

Speaker,·who believes or pays any attention to rumours at all 1 but there are quite a number of rumours on the go in the past few days,and I probably should not even refer to them here in the House,but I think the Leader of the Opposition either yesterday or the day before indicated to the House that he felt he was being slighted in the appointment to the Senate. And I guess most people know now that the \-lord is out that the Leader of the Opposition is not going in the Senate and that the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. ~oberts) looks like he is getting support from his own 3202

May 2, 1984 Tape No. 1215 SD - 2 MR. PEACH: provincial caucus for that position. And as well,another follow-up to that, it looks like the federal minister, Mr. Rompkey, might probably be passed along to the Senate as well. As well, of course, that leaves a seat open and another rumour that seems to be moving on those days is that the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) is quite unhappy where he is. So you never know what might come up. But to go back to the resolution, Mr. Speaker, I noticed, I suppose, today that in The Daily News, if anyone pays attention to that particular part of the medium - MR.

CALLAN: We do, MR. PEACH: I am sure,as the member for Bellevue (Mr.

Callan) says, he does - I guess the Leader of the Opposition (Mr · Neary)_ was quite happy this morning to see that he did make the front page of· The Daily News and at the same time · it is ironic that it was only because of the Gallup poll that they put all of their faith now into the offshore and what is going to happen to the offshore, as was quoted yesterday by the Leader of the Opposition, since the Gallup poll results of yesterday 1which has already been pointed out was an error on the part of Gallup 1 that now the Leader of the Opposition feels that ~..re should take the Chretien proposal and, of course, that should be the end all and be all of the fate of this Province for generations to come.

MR. WALSH: What proposal? MR. PEACH: That is a very good question, as my friend and colleage, the member for Menihek (Hr. Walsh), points out, 'What proposal?' I have not heard over the past number of days that we have been debating this resolution anybody put forth the proposal. The member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) attempted there in disjointed comments to read a confidential proposal, I guess, that he had from Mr. Chretien. 3203

May 2, 1984 MR. TULK : MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : member for Fogo . MR. TULK: Tape No . 1215 so - 3 A point of order, Mr. Speaker. Order, plea se! A point of order, the hon . The member for Carbonear (Mr . Peach) said that the thing I read in this House \V'as confidential from Mr Chretien, that is false information. I do not think he intends to mislead this House, but the truth is what I read is available to anybody and has been available £or some time . MR . PEACH : To that point of order, Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: hon . member for Carbonear . MR .

PEACH: To that point of order, the I did not intend in any way to mislead the House but if that information is available to the House I am sure the member for Fogo (! ~. Tulk) has no objection to tabling it. MR . SPEAKER : Order, pleas e! It is not re ally a valid point of order. It is certainly a difference of opinion between two hon. members. The hon. member for Carbonear . 3204

May 2, 1984 Tape 1216 PK - 1 MR. PEACH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As I was saying,our Provincial Minister responsible for the Offshore (Mr. Marshall) indicated very clearly yesterday that if we should accept the proposal of Mr.

Chretien, supposedly a proposal,and if we should follow along the route taken by the members opposite that this Province would get very little revenue from an offshore deal like that which was offered to the Province of Nova Scotia and which they have accepted with a stipulation that,if our Province should get a better deal, then they are looking forward to getting the same kind of a deal that we will get. It should also be noted, Mr.

Speaker, that The Canada Oil and Gas Lands Administration were quite different in their opinion from that of the members opposite when they indicated very clearly that even at this present time there are many more jobs created in Newfoundland w~thout an agreement than has been created in Nova Scotia which has I suppose, an agreement with which it appears they are happy. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the amendment to that motion which was put forth by the member the last day seems to make a lot more sense,and I am sure it is one that echoes the sentiments of all Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, that message came through loud and clear just shortly over two years ago on April 6,1982 when the people of this great Province indicated the stand that they wanted a government at the time to take, Their selection of a government was very clear and I am sure that the Opposition has been hurting from that ever since 1despite the fact that the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) 3205

May 2, 1984 Tape 1216 PK - 2 MR. PEACH: saw fit on some particular day in his life to walk across the House and,as I said earlie~ has apparently many regrets for that since. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, I have to support the amendment as I am sure I speak for all of the people in this Province, and_,as a matter of fact 1 I am sure I speak for most of the members opposite. I am sure the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) really does not think that we should accept the offer that Mr.

Chretien had indicated verbally but is not willing to put in writing, so I guess it is only a couple of the members opposite who feel that we should accept such a proposal. MR. TOBIN: That is right. He is a follower,see. He has to do what he is told. MR. PEACH: the other side, We know there are not many leaders on as has been clearly indicated. I expect any day now for them to put a proposal to our Public Service Commission that they will probably be looking for a leader for their party. It seems as though the member for Mount Scio (Mr.

Barry) has sort of died out, his name has not been recognized for a month or more now; in fact, he ~las even gone out of the Province to try to make some headlines. MR. TOBIN: He is over in Europe. MR. PEACH: Some of the comments, Mr. Speaker, that I want to just pass along in the other few minutes that I ~ have, I happened to pick up a few leaflets that happened to be lying around here on my desk, with nothing greatly prepared, but I would like to call the attention. of the members opposite to some of those because some people have made some great comments with regards to our position on our offshore.

One of those I am sure that the members opposite should have read already,which has been circulated throughout our Province indicating our first, second and 3206

May 2, 1984 Tape No. 1217 MJ - 1 MR. PEACH: third proposal and our final compromise proposal 1 a compromise proposal that has been put forth indicating that we have been very fair, we ha ve not been greedy in any way and that we have compromised and we have presented ,to the best of the wishes, I am sure, of the people of this Province some of the facts that make our position ver y clear. As well, one of the former colleagues of the members opposite, Mr.

Rowe .-, in his comments of a month or so ago in the Daily News indicated in the end of his column, 'We get nothing like the benefit we should be getting from the fishery, the hydro power because they ' - tt~e federal government - 'are controlling these resources and now of course the offshore has gone in the same way as the other resources have gone.

However,' he said, 'do not worry, this time the federal government will develop it for the benefit of Newfoundland and Labrador.' And I am sure we all realize that he is referring to the fact that when we have a new Conservative Government in Ottawa that then we will get our rightful place and that in this Province we will see the day when the sun will shine and have-not will be no more. Mr.

Speaker, again ''~~ realize that after numbers of meetings, as has been already indicated by speakers who have spoken prior to me, that prior to December, I guess the late Fall and Winter of 1982, th~t it became ,, very clear that the federal government at the time wanted to have total power and wanted to share in the management and, of course, share in revenue. I do not think, Mr.

Speaker, that any person in the Province today could agree with such a proposal or with such a theory that a Province such as ours should be left with a small and insignificant share of that great natural resource that lies off our shores. Again, 3207

May 2, 1984 Tape No. 12.17 MJ - 2 MR. PEACH: Mr. Speaker, it is the fact that we are looking for shared management and,of course,the sharing of revenue, and I am sure again that I speak for the people in my district, in the Carbonear district, in saying how we feel with the handouts that we are supposed to accept from Ottawa. It was only on Saturday night past that I attended a function in my district where the hon. Mr. Rompkey was there with his usual goodies, he and the member for Bona vista - Trinity- Conception (Mr.

Rooney) , who I suppose will be member for another couple of months, until the election is called anyway, when the hon. Mr.

Rompkey,after having made somewhat of a dull presentation to the Federation of Mayors and Hunicipalities 1had to get up of course and for the cameras and for the local papers make a ~resentation which he called at the time- he presented a cheque 1 as a matter of fact,to the Mayor of Carbonear for $10,000 - which he indicated was just a small contribution to the federal propaganda machine which they have in place now and will be conducting twelve seminars in this Province to promote the federal programmes and really to get in gear 3208

May 2,1984 Tape No. 1218 ah-1 MR. PEACH: and to promote themselves fa+ the upcoming federal election. Mr. Speaker, one of the articles that has I am sure, brought out a lot of things on the offshore recently was that by Professor L±n Jackson of the University. I realized that it was only a few weeks ago,when it carne out,that the members on the opposite side were very concerned and , of course, did not want to hear much of it when Professor Jackson referred to the fact that the judgement is a, and was a concerted effort on our historic status. That particular

part is something that the members opposite do not want to hear. They have already indicated who they are supporting in the federal leadership. Mr. Chretien has already been singled out by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.Neary).

And , of course, what it sirnpJ.;y.·.rneans, as Professor Jackson said,is that our revenues, and those are the revenues from the Grand Banks of Canada, of course, will flow automatically into the federal coffers and that this Province should, of course, rely on handouts and equalization payments • And that obviously is what the members opposite would like for future generations to rely on.

They are nottoo concerned about the long-term, they are more concerned with what they can do in the short-term and to take the role and to take the line that a former leader of their party took and sold us down the drain for short­ term benefits,and that is supposed to be the end of it. I realize, Mr. Speaker, that I have very few minutes left but I am sure that the members opposite are sort of again hurting somewhat today because they are short on speakers.

Two of their members are missing, the one who was supposed to speak today at the beginning,because he closed off debate last day 1 could not be here 7 he is down in his 3209

May 2,1984 Tape No. 1218 ah-2 MR.PEACH: district or down in Mexico, one or the other 1 and the member who should be the last to speak today on this important resolution, the issue that he crossed the House over, the very important issue that he could not agree with our leader on. And then he wanted to become leader of a party all of a sudden, He could not find a party to become leader of, so he crossed the House ·and now he realizes that Mr. Cashin is more in line for that leadership.

And I would not rule out the present Leader of the Opposition (Mr.Neary) seeking that position if he does not end up in ~he Senate. I am sure if he has his eye on it,and he will look for it. And as my colleague,the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Simms) said earlier. I wou ·ld like to see the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) retain that leadership. He is one of the greatest assets that we have right now. SOME HON.HEMBERS: Sh! Sh! HR.PEACH: I should not be telling these secrets, I guess,however it has been stated by the media quite often. - Mr.

Speaker, one of the people over there lvho I am sure is an asset is the hon. member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren). He is not here toda~ but I would like for him to be here to make some comments because he is usually a very reasonable and rash individual.And he also has indicated that he is interested in seeking the leadership-of that party. But as Professor Jackson said,What then is there to sign? What is there to be negotiated and agreed to? Basically' , he says, 'the answer is nothing. ' And I quote _from Professor Jackson. One final thing- Mr.

Speaker, that I would suggest to the member opposite, not the members opposite, the other members seem to have gone on vacation 1or have abandoned their seats over there. HR. SIHMS: They are all down South. 3210

May.2,1984 Tape No. 1218 ah-3 MR.PEACH: What are not down South, I guess, have gone to Europe and so on to better themselves. And it looks like they have left 321i

May 2, 1984 Tape 1219 PK - 1 MR. PEACH: the reins of power in the hands of the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) who did not see fit to come out on Saturday night and support his federal member, out in Carbonear. However, I guess we will have to forgive him for that. I realize, of course, that right now,as we said, the great discontentment that the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) has probably led him across the sea, very MR. CALLAN: A lot of rumours. MR. PEACH: - discontented with his seat over there. I heard a few days ago that he has his options left open.

I do not know what options he has left because he seems to have used them all up. But,I guess,if need be the federal party will send someone off to the Senate therefore creating a seat for him to run in in the federal election. But to go on to that, Mr. Speaker, to follow along the line of the discontentment that seems to be rampant throughout the Province right now - MR. CALLAN: A lot of rumours! MR. PEACH: - rumour has it that he is not sure whether he is going to run for the Liberals or the Conservatives in the upcoming federal election, the member for Mount Scio. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

PEACH: So I expect any day at all for him to put on his walking shoes and leave the House altogether. But, Mr. Speaker, one of the other things that I would commit to the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) in particular, because the member-~nd the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) is not too good at reading,as he has indicated many times here in this hon. House. The only time he seems to be able to read is when he has something in 3212

May 2, 1984 Tape 1219 PK - 2 MR. PEACH: bold print in Question Period, And the last few months he always had a tendancy to read his questions to the ministers, which indicates to me that he is sort of getting spun out. He is only half correct rrost of the time, I am sure he wo~·ld have no hesitation in conceding his position except for the salary that goes along with it,. we all know that he is the highest paid Opposition Leader in Canada today and,I guess,that is one of the things that is sort of keeping him on.

And if that was out of the way and if he did not have to face the realities of the financial wrld, I guess he wuld be willing to concede his position to Mr. Cashin. But I should refer the hon. member to the brochure,really, the press release given by our Premier in his Moncton speech of several days ago on the offshore, called Sharing From Sea To Sea. I think that bottom line is very appropriate, the part about sharing, because w :~ as a Province never did indicate that we were not willing to share. All we were asking for was our equal share. Both the federal government and our federal friends 1 Mr.

Chretien and Mr. Lalonde,felt that we.should not be in a position to share but that we should be in a position to give. And .they are obviously in the position that they wanted to be in,that of taking and leaving very little for us. But we were quite willing to give our equal share and,of course,as time went on and we became a have Province and became reasonably self-sufficient fran an econanic standpoin :t., then we would be quite content and prepared for the federal government to reap the greater economic shares from our offshore.

This speech that was passed along and read by our Premier on April 16, while speaking in Moncton, has very, very important points in it that the members opposite should take and read and comprehend. I am sure that they will 3213

May 2, 1984 Tape 1219 PK - 3 MR. PEACH: realize that when the Premier uade those comments he was speaking for all of the people in this Province, all of the people in Newfoundland and Labrador. 3214

May 2, 1984 Tape No. 1220 SD - 1 MR. PEACH: An~, Mr. Speaker, I look forward to hearing the comments from the leader now, I guess, the leader of the Party opposite, the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan). Thank you. MR. !v'ARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, anyone listening to the debate can compare the calibre of the speaker we just heard with the speaker who went before. The member f~r Carbonear (Mr. Peach) knew his subject. It is a vital subject,affecting the people of this Province, and all the han. member for Fogo (Mr.

Tulk). could do was get up with inanities and get up with his usual generalities without dealing at all with the issues. Make no wonder, Mr. Speaker, there is such a turnabout in this Province. I wish that Mr. Gallup had galloped into the Province of Newfoundland,because if he had galloped into the Province of Newfoundland he would see quite a turning place. They cannot get a place big enough, the member for Burin - Placentia West (.Mr. Tobin) . tells me, in Marys town to hold a nominating meeting for the federal Conservative Party. Throughout the district of Humber - St. George's - St.

Barbe, all up and down, there are people whom we have never heard of before looking for cards for the purpose of the thing. And make no wonder, with the calibre of the hon. gentlemen there opposite and the way they address and ignore the issues that apply to this Province. So it was not sensible, Mr. Speaker, what they said. What they said is not sensible. I think it is very significant, too, that the member who proposed this resolution is · away at the present time. MR. NEARY: He is travelling in Europe. MR. MARSHAL~: Yes, he is travelling in Europe. 3215

May 2, 1984 Tape No. 1220 SD - 2 MR. MARSHALL: And why is he travelling in Europe? We are told by the Minister for Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Simms), and we have all heard the rumour, that the han. gentleman has gone on an extended holiday because he is reconsidering, once again, his position. He has been heard to say,or he has been reported as having saj~ that he made a colossal mistake when he went over with the gentlemen on the other side. And he has been heard to say·, Mr. Speaker, the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) has been reported as saying that he is reconsidering his options.

Now,I do not know what options he has. Maybe he is over in Europe looking for some sixteenth century parties or what have you,because he seems to now have a penchant for changing and joining parties: So he is reconsidering his options. And make no wonder the han. gentleman would reconsider his options, having gone to bed with the han. gentlemen there oppositeo Because the wonder of it is that he c0uld have sat in this House for the number of years he had and then gone over and joined the han. gentlemen there opposite1particularly because of their stand with respect to this issue. So, Mr.

Speaker, the member for Mount Scio is having second thoughts about what he did and well he should,because all the people of Newfoundland had immediate second thoughts as soon as he crossed this House, right from the first time he opened his mouth in this House and made the accusation he made to the Minister of Fisheries (Mr' Morgan) and the Minister of Fisheries made him look silly,indeed1as he has looked silly all the time through.

What he did when the han. gentleman went across the House, as is indicated in this resolution -this is a gentleman now who brings in this resolution,with respect to the offshore,to condemn the provincial government for its position on the offshore. This is the same gentleman who had the opportunity to conduct the negotiations with 3216

May 2, 1984 Tape No. 1220 SD - 3 MR. MARSHALL: Ottawa himself, but the truth of the matter is,the heat was