LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 16 June, 1987. Time - 1:30 p. m. OPENING PRAYER by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEA KER, Hon. M. Philli ps: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Burrows. MR. C. SANTOS: Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, di rects me to report the same, and asks leave to sit again. Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Lac du Bonnet, that the report of the committee be received. MOTION presented and carried.

MADAM SPEAKER: Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports . . . Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills .. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MADAM SPEAKER: Before moving to Oral Questions, may I dir ect the attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have 25 students from Grade 8 from the Jack River School under the direction of Mr. Bruce Joh nston. The school is located in the constituency of the Honour able Minister for Northern Affairs. We have 22 students from Grade 5 from the Robert Smith Elementary School, under the direction of Ms. C.

Kulpak and the school is located in the constituency of the Honour able First Minister. On behalf of all the members, we welcome you to the Legislature this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS Chmn. of Municipal Board - active political partisan individual MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Speaker, my question is for the Premier.

Madam Speaker, given that the previous chairmen of the Municipal Board have been career civil servants - and I emphasize "career civil servants" - who have maintained the integrity of the Municipal Board as a non-political, unbiased, quasi-jud icial board of final appeal, I ask this First Minister why he appointed an active political partisan individual to the Municipal Board, to politicize it in that manner? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I'm very pleased, in fact, to have been able to recommend the appointment of Andy Anstett as the Chair -0f the Mu nici pal Board.

Andy Anstett is extremely well respected by the municipal people of the Province of Manitoba. He has a background of doing well, as Minister of Municipal Affairs in this province and, as well, Madam Speaker, is one of the few non-assessment people in this province that has a thorough understanding of the assessment system.

So I think we're very fortunate to have someone of the calibre of Andy Anstett to serve as Chair of the Municipal Board, and I have every confidence that two years from now there will be no.question but that Andy Anstett was one of the best appointments ever made to the chairmanship of the Municipal Board in the Province of Manitoba. Chmn. of Municipal Board - what political policies expected to be brought to board MR. D.

ORCHARD: Madam Speaker, given that the Premier has denied that this is blatant politic al patronage in the appointment of a defeated Cabinet Minister to the Municipal Board; and given that the First Minister said that this kind of political patronage is a given, all political parties do it, because he, in particula r, wishes to have people of his political persuasion . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have a question? MR. D.

ORCHARD: . . . of his political persuasion in these kinds of positions to promote government policy; what government policies, what political persuasions, does the First Minister expect a defeated Cabinet Minister to bring to a non-political quasi-judicial, unbiased Municipal Board? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, of course I'm not surprised at the contradictions that occur from time to time in positions of honourable members across the way.

In fact, the Member for Pembina served in treasury benches that appointed the former Walter Weir as the Chairman of the Assessme nt Review Committee in the Province of Manitoba. Of course, that was not political; that was an elder statesman in the mind of the Member for Pembina. Madam Speaker, I did not hear cries of anguish on the part of honourable members across the way, when the former Member for Swan River, Doug Gourl ay, was appointed to serve as the Chair of the Farm Debt Review Board by the Federal Government, defeated candidate in the Swan River constituency.

Madam Speaker, I did not hear cries of anguish when the former defeated Conservative candidate in Lac du Bonnet was appointed a chief aide to the present Minister of Health. 311 8

Tuesday, 16 June, 1987 So, Madam Speaker, neither did we criticize those appointments, so I think the cries of protest on the part of the Honou rable Member for Pembina really ring very, very hollow, when you consider the capacity, the ability of the former Minister of Municipal Affairs in this province, by the name of Andy Anstett. Chmn. of Municipal Board - absent himself from crucial decisions MR. D.

ORCHARD: Madam Speaker, given that former chairmen of the Municipal Board have been career civil servants, not defeated Cabinet Ministers of the Pawley administra tion; and given that the Municipal Board is a qua si-judicia l, non-politic al, unbiased board of impeccable integrity in this province, up until this point in time; and now this government has politicized even the Municipal Board; can the First Minister indicate whether the newly-appointed defeated Cabinet Minister as chairman of the board, will absent himself from those decisions in which he, as Minister responsible for Municipal Affairs 15 months ago, made very strong positions, particularly in regard to assessment with the City of Winnipeg where he was in constant battle and warfare with the City of Winnipeg; will he absent himself as 'chairman of the board in any crucial decisions, since the Municipal Board is the final board of appeal in Municipal Affairs matters?

HON. H. PAWLEY: I'm prepared to wager that if you ask the municipal people of this province whether or not Andy Anstett is one of impeccable integrity, the answer will be overwhelmingly, yes, from the municipal people of the Province of · Manitoba; and they will disagree with the scurrilous comments by the Member for Pembina in this House just a few moments ago.

Madam Speaki!r, insofar as a conflict of interest, I have no doubt in my mind that the former Minister of Municipal Affairs, being one that is very dis creet as to ensuring that he would never permit himself to be compromised by conflict of interest, will be the first at the appropriate time to absent himself from any quasi­ judicial hearings where there could be a conflict, not an imagined conflict. MONA - opposition to final offer selection MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Labour.

Given that, in addition to the Canadian Union of Public Employees, the International Ladies Garment Workers' Unio n, the Canadian Association of Ind ustrial, Mechanical and Allied Workers' Union, now MO NA, Manitoba Association of Nurses' Organization, has come out opposed to final offer selection and saying, in part, that they firmly believe in free collective bargaining, and that the best possible mechanism for resolving disputes is strike lockout; will the Minister of Labour now listen to all of these unions who are coming out in opposition to final offer selection and reconsider the position he has taken and withd raw this ill­ considered bill from the Legislature?

MR. D. ORCHARD: And resign. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Labour. HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker, I've become used to hearing the discordant voice of the Member tor Pembina so it doesn't phase me, Madam Speaker. In respect to the legislation that's before the House, we knew when we introduced it that there were some in management circles, in industry, some in the trade union circles that, because this legislation is unique, because it is innovative, will have some doubt and some apprehensions in respect to it.

We did not anticipate that there would be universal acceptance of the principles contained in this bill. In respect to those tears and concerns, I say this, Madam Speaker, that final offer selection is merely another mechanism; it is merely another option. But it is the workers in the bargaining unit who will determine whether or not that mechanism, at any given time, is appropria te for their consideration. Madam Speaker, it will be a democrat ic choice of � workers.

It may, indeed, occasion some concern in respect to others that they must comm unicate effectively and persuade the workers as to the logic of any given choice that they face. But, Madam Speaker, I have no apprehension about entrusting that fundamental decision to workers because it is workers who decide, in every instance, whether the pay packet is sufficient. After collective bargaining, it is workers who determine whether or not they're prepared to go on strike to defend their rights, and so there's no . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please.

May I remind Honour able Ministers that answers to questions should be brief. Final offer selection - legislation detrimental to labour relations climate MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Leader of the Opposition. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, given that the' Manitoba Organization of Nurses' Assoc iation has said, and I qu ote: "The existence of the unfettered right to strike ensures the collective bargaining process involves true negotiations," and has said that this proposal of the Minister would set up a win/lose, than a win/win situation in the free collective bargaining process, will he acknowledge that this legislation will be extremely detrimental to the labour relations climate in Manitoba? HON. A.

MACKLING: No, Madam Speaker, and I assume from the manner in which the Hono urable Leader of the Opposition is putting his questions, that he is against the legislation; he is in favour of strikes and lock-outs. He doesn't want to consider that workers should have a right to consider another option. And, Madam Speaker, yes, there will be pressure, there will be encouragement on parties to collectively bargain because it will be incumbent upon them to bargain and reduce the outstanding issues so that the final package they propose will be the most reasonable one tor a 311 9

Tuesday, 16 June, 1987 selector to choose. Rather than reduce collective bargaining, this will encourage more effective collective bargaining and will not produce the kind of chilling effect that ordina ry arbitration imposes in respect to a dispute resolution. Final offer selection - withdraw legislation from Order Paper MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, given that business has said that this legislation will destroy the incentive for investment in Manitoba; given that emplo yers have said that this legislation will make it more difficult to create employment in Manitoba; given that unions have said that this legislation will be an unwarranted intrusion into the free collective bargaining system that this Minister says he believes in in Manitoba, will he now listen to all of these people, instead of listening to just his one good friend and supporter, Bernie Christophe, and remove this legislation from the Order Paper and stop it in the name of good sense in the future for Manitoba?

HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker, in 1972, when an NOP Government brought legislative reform in the labour relations fie ld, there were the same angry concerns voiced in this Cham ber by the Official Oppos ition, the Cons ervative Party which is not progressive; in 1984 when we brought into this Chamber progressive legislation to advance the harmonious relationship between management and labour in this province, the same cries of doom and gloom were heard. It's the same voices we're hearing today, Madam Speaker. MR. G. FILMON: My question is for the Premier.

Given that the two major proponents of this final offer selection legislation are the Minister of Labour, who is responsible for drawing this province into the MTX fiasco that cost us $27 million; and a union boss, Bernie Christophe, who slapped an 18-year-old worker at Supervalu with a $3 million lawsuit because she dared to ask questions about a union disagreement at the place she was employed . . MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have a question? MR. G.

FILMON: . . . will he now decide, in the best interests of the people of Manitoba, that this is going to be detrimental to our province and withdraw the legislation and not proceed with it for the good of all Manitobans? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, it's very difficult to respond to a qu estion that's so ridd led with inaccurate premises, as that which we just wit nessed on the part of the Leader of the Opposition. The legislation, as clearly pointed out by the Minister of Labour, is one that provides an option, an alternative to strike and to lockouts.

It is a piece of legislation to continue to build upon the good labour management relationship in this province that has seen the Province of Manitoba suffer one of the fewest number of days lost due to strikes or lockouts in all of Canada, Madam Speaker, mainly because of legislation passed by this government, opposed by honourable members across the way in years gone by. Madam Speaker, we will co ntinue our efforts to ensure impr oved labour­ management relationship in the Province of Manitoba. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, given that every single employer and business group in this province opposes the legislati on, and now major unions representing at least 30,000 unionized workers are in opposition to this legislation; given that every one of them says that the labour relations climate will be worsened by this legislation, will the Premier listen to the people, listen to the people who elected him, who elected, indeed, everybody in this Legislature, listen to them when say that they want a better business relations climate, but they want a better investment climate, they want more jobs for the future and get rid of this legislation.

HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, this government is constantly attempting to ensure that it receives submissions. It listens to thoughts and pr.oposals as put forth. But several years ago, when we heard talks about this cloud of doom from certain circles in the Province of Manitoba, when the former Minister of Labour introduced labour legislation, we said th_at was exaggeration, that was grossly inaccurate. Events since then have demonstrated that, indeed, we were right and those that had forecast di re consequences were wrong.

Likewise, Madam Speaker, that is the case with this legislation that has been introduced in this Cha m ber, geared toward improvement of labour-management relationships in the Province of Manitoba. Final offer selection - Min. job dependent on passage of MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, I am glad that the Premier has reminded us of that time a few years ago because that's when they withdrew . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Member have a question? MR. G. FILMON: . . . this very proposal.

Madam Speaker, my final question to the Premier is: Given his stubborn intransigence on this legislation, will he tell this House and the people of Manitoba, is the Minister of Labour's position in Cabinet dependent on the passage of this legislation? MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. That question is not in order. The Honour able - (Interjection)- The question is not in order. MR. G. FILMON: Why isn't it in order, Madam Speaker? MADAM SPEAKER: No 1, it seeks an opinion; and No. 2, events that happen within Cabinet are not available for questions. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, I'm not interested in events that are occurring within Cabinet in this 3120

Tuesday, 16 June, 1987 instance . I want to know whether this Premier has put his Minister of Labour's job on the line with this legislation. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I only rise to deal with the question because of the inaccurate premise in the earlier question directed at me by the Leader of the Opposition . FOS was never introduced in this Chamber by way of legislation. There was a White Paper which contained a proposal for discussion purposes. That is quite a difference between legislation and a White Paper.

There have been three years to further evaluate that as a consequence of the discussion , the debate being encouraged three years ago as a result of the White Paper proposal by the former Minister of Labour, the former Member for Kildonan constituency. Madam Speaker , the Minister of Labour shepherds this legislaton . The Minister of Labour does not require the Premier of this province to defend him . His abilities are well-known. Postal strike - backup plans for delivery of cheques MADAM. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: My question is to the Minister of Economic Security .

In view of the unfortunate strike that has hit Canadians, and in view of the fact that Manitoba will be hit probably next in the rotating strikes that are taking place, can the Minister indicate whether he has got any backup plans in terms of sending out the cheques to people who are depending on the Old Age Supplement, or the CRISP Program? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Employment Services and Economic Security . HON. L. EVANS: Yes, Madam Speaker, I thank the honourable member for that question, it's a very important question .

We do have a responsibility to ensure that people who are dependent on welfare cheques or, indeed, our 55-Plus cheques are able to receive them. We are making various arrangements throughout Manitoba to ensure that those cheques will be available to them. There are various details that are now being worked out by the staff and, hopefully, we will be able to communicate this information to all of our recipients. Postal strike - backup plans over a period of time MR. A. DRIEDGER: Madam Speaker, my next question is to the Minister of Government Services .

Can the Minister indicate whether he has got any backup plans, in terms of sending out cheques for payables, or collecting receivables in the coming months if the strike continues for a period of time? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Government Services. HON. H. HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker, there is a conting ency plan that has been in effect for many years with the Department of Government Services . That contingency plan is once more in place , where we will be making sure that all the essential mail is delivered. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Madam Speaker, maybe to both Ministers then. The strike is on right now.

How long will it take before these plans become apparent to the people of Manitoba to know what 's happening? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker, the plans are in place now. We have not been hit by a strike at this time in Manitoba, so when there is a disruption in the services then the plan will go into action. MR. A. DRIEDGER: A final supplementary, Madam Speaker. Can the Ministers both indicate what are the plans? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Yes, we have a series of postal " vehicles that we use in our normal operations of Government Services, and we have other vehicles. A MEMBER: Strikebreakers . HON. H.

HARAPIAK: Members opposite are hollering "strikebreaking." We are having discussions with the unions involved in it and we will not be strikebreaking . We will be handling essential mail only, that includes social services cheques . I am wondering what the members opposite would expect. We are wondering if the members opposite would want the people that were on social services not to receive their cheques, the people who are depending on those for an existence; or the pay cheques for the government employees, would they expect they not be delivered?

Yes, the plan is in place to deliver all those cheques at this time . Postal strike - who will make decision re essential services MR. A. DRIEDGER: The Minister's answers lead to more questions. Who will be making the decision as to what is essential services that will be dealt with? HON. H. HARAPIAK: As always, Madam Speaker, there is a committee made up of a Deputy Minister , who will be exercising common sense . Common sense tells us that any items, such as, court orders, health orders , social services cheques, housing supplements and payroll and superannuation cheques would be looked after.

Postal strike - what unions has Min. been dealing with re these services MR. A. DRIEDGER: A final supplementary to the same Minister. Can the Minister indicate with which unions he has been meeting and dealing with about these services that they 're going to be providing? 3121

Tuesday, 16 June, 1987 HON. H. HARAPIAK: We have not been meeting with the postal workers union because we're not directly involved with that union. Our only di rect involvement is with the MGEA and we will be meeting to make sure that our plans are not classified as strikebreaking. Post-Secondary Adult and Continuing Education - appointment of ADM to PSACE MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Education.

In discussions with the Civil Service Commission I have learned that the qualifications for the ADM for Post-Secondary Adult and Continuing Education were to be experienced in adult education, management, a level of community college experience. Can the Minister explain why he appointed an ADM with none of those experiences? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Education. HON. J. STORIE: Well, Madam Speaker, I wasn't certain until now that the Member for River Heights had such good intelligence reports on staff.

I don't believe that most of her comments reflect an accurate picture of the background of the individual in question. Madam Speaker, the individual who was appointed to the ADM PSACE division has been associated with adult and continuing education for much of her professional life; is currently working at the University of Manitoba, and comes with a number of other skills which are going to be essential to fulfill the function in that particular area.

This individual, Madam Speaker, was interviewed by a commit tee and seemed to be the candidate of choice, and I don't know what motivates the Member for River Heights to raise these kinds of issues without having the appropriate information at hand, and trying to undermine what is a very important position for the department and the Province of Manitoba. Dept. of Education - policy to disregard education MRS. S.

CARSTAIRS: Madam Speaker, it is indeed a very important position and would the Minister please explain if it is now the policy of the Department of Education to dis regard educational qualif ications and expertise in the field of endeavour in favour of political considerations? HON. J. STORIE: No, Madam Speaker, and it never has been. As I've indicated, the individual in question has the requisite skills and the Member for River Heights may be impressed by the fact that people have a Ph.D behind their name.

There are other im portant qual ifications besides academic qualifications, and they include experience and ability to do the job. It wasn't myself that made the determination that the individual in question had those skills, Madam Speaker, and it was also a consideration that there was a demand for affirmative action for women in senior positions in the Department of Education.

The government has made that commitment; I have made that commitment, Madam Speaker, and I'm not going to apologize in any way, and I resent the individual attack that the Member for River Heights is mounting without knowing the facts, without knowing the capability of the individual, without provocation. ADM PSACE - additional qualifications MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Would the Minister provide the House with any additional qualif ications of this new ADM that were not provided through the public release which certainly indicates she has not the qualif ications for the positions? HON. J.

STORIE: Madam Speaker, I will do better than that. I will invite the Member for River Heights to talk to the individual in question and perhaps become informed before she forms an opinion. Day care program - additional information MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. C. BAKER: Thank you, Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Community Services. Recently there's been a federal announcement about the day care program. I wonder if the Minister has any information as to the type of program, and when it can be instituted. MADAM SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Minister of Community Services.

HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker, to my knowledge, there has not been any dir ect announcement about the national day care program. We were expecting an announcement by the end of June and I note that there is now an indication, although we have not received direct communic ation from the Federal Minister, that there will be no announcement until the fall. We're disappointed at the delay, but still hopeful that the plan will, in fact, greatly advance day care in Canada. Condominium Act - amendments to be provided before made public MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. C.

BIRT: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Housing. Several weeks ago, I asked if the Minister would be preparing a num ber of amend ments to the condominium bill. She indicated, at that time, she would be. My question to the Minister is: Will she be providing those amendments to us before she makes them public? MADAM SPEAKER: The Hono urable Minister of Housing. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, Madam Speaker. 3122

Tuesday, 16 June, 1987 Condominium Act - amendments available to Condominium Association MR. C. BIRT: Madam Speaker, could the Minister advise why she has made the existing amendments available to the Condominium Association of Manitoba, before she's made them available to us? HON. M.

HEMPHILL: Madam Speaker, what we were doing with the Condominium Association is what I thought the member opposite was suggesting we do when we raised the question in the first place; and that is, make sure that we were consulting with the field and getting feedback from them on their position and conc erns they had on the 5 percent reserve. I guaranteed him that we were going to take the time necessary to do additional consulting, because the original recom mendation came from the Condominium Instit ution , that we would do that and give full consideration to what they suggested and what their concerns were.

We are doing that. I would think that he would be pleased. Condominium Act - directive not to release information to member MR. C. BIRT: Madam Speaker, then could the Minister advise why the people in her department instructed the Condominium Assoc iation people not to share these amendments with this member of the Ho use, and they were under an oath of secrecy until she released it to the public? How can one cooperative in development of amendments to legislat ion, if the public sees legislation before we do and they are covered by an oath of silence, not to reveal or share with us? HON. M.

HEMPHILL: Madam Speaker, I believe that what we shared with the mem bers of the Condominium Institution, and people in the field, was suggested changes that came about as a result of feedback and communi cation that came from individual mem bers and from the Condominium Institution. We asked them for their feedback; they gave it to us; there was no indication to them that there would or would not be amendments, but we were asking for their advice and their recommendations and they gave that.

Winnipeg taxicab drivers - investigation of list of names given to Manitoba Food and Commercial Union MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of the Environment. HON. G. LECUY ER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Wednesday of last week I took a question as notice from the Member for River Heights; a question with respect to a list of Winnipeg taxi dri vers that were allegedly released by my department to United Food and Commercial Workers.

I want to advise the member that I have discussed this with staff and I'm assured that the limited number of copies compiled for distribution, of questionnaires, have been all accounted for. You will recall, Madam Speaker, as well as other members in the House, that the following day, in the Free Press, there was an

article Thursday of last week, in which Colin okTrigwell, staff rep for the United Food and Commercial Workers, stated that they used no government agency; therefore, I am satisfied that there has been no indiscretion on the part of any staff in my department. Springfield-Tache Resource Centre - reason for cut in grant MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Springfield. MR. G. ROCH : Thank you, Madam Speak er. My que stion is to the Minister of Employment Services responsible for Careerstart. The Springfield-Tache Resource Centre had their grant cut by 50 percent placing their summer program in jeopardy.

I've tried through the regular channels to get answers and explanations and I've been unable to. Can the Minister explain why this has happened and if it will be reinstated? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Emplo yment Services and Economic Security. HON. L. EVANS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Regrettably, I couldn't hear all of the question. I didn't get the precise name of the organization that the member was referring to, so I wonder if you would kindly repeat the question. MR. G. ROCH: Madam Speaker, I was referring to the Springfield-Tache Resource Centre.

Among other things, they run a summer program for youth in the area and their grant has been cut by 50 percent. Although they've tried through the regular channels to get their grant reinstated - it's only a matter of a couple of thousand dollars - I was wondering if the Minister could assist them in getting the full amount reinstated so the program can proceed. It's in jeopardy right now. HON. L. EVANS: There is a process of review, Madam Speaker , and many mem bers of the Legislature, including many on the opposite side, have drawn to our attention certain inequities and so on.

We're certainly prepared to look at any application that has been rejected and so on, so we'll certainly take that under advisement and see what the situation is. MR. G. ROCH: If I heard the Minister correctly, is he advising me then that the organization can apply for review and get the full grant reinstated? HON. L. EVANS: Madam Speaker, we will look into this particular application and advise the organization and the mem ber. Off-road vehicles - consumers to - purchase insurance privately MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. 3123

Tuesday, 16 June, 1987 MR. G. DUCHARME: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister responsible for Highways and Transportation. The Minister in a News Service dated June 12, 1987 ment ioned that for The Off-road Vehicles Act, the liability insurance vehicles , the insurance will be compulsory . Will the Minister allow the consumers of Manitoba to purchase as they allow now through the private insurers , as well as Manitoba Public Insurance Corporat ion? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways and Transportation. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Madam Speaker , this bill is before the House, but certainly, as I indicated during my opening statement, liability insurance will be a requirement, a prerequisite to registration, so that everyone who will want to register an off-road vehicle will have to have liability insurance and that this would available through the agency of their choice. Off-road vehicles, insurance for - ,- regulation of compulsory insurance liability MR. G. DUCHARME: A supplementary question to the same Minister, Madam Speaker.

How will the Minister regulate the compulsory insurance liability which is on an annual premium basis along with, or try to regulate it and compare it to the three-year cycle of the registration of these off-road vehicles? MADAM SPEAKER: Could the honourable member please clarify? It sounds to me like he's talking about details about a bill that's before the House for Second Reading which of course is not in order. MR. G. DUCHARME: Yes, it is, and I'll ask a further supplementary question then . Off-road vehicles, insurance for - reason for waiting for October 1988 MR. G.

DUCHARME: Madam Speaker, the Minister in the same release mentioned there is a very real need for legislation of off-road vehicles . Could the Minister tell me, if there is such a need, why is the Minister and his administration waiting for October 1988 to put in this

part icular bill? They did not have to wait for this type of bill to be put in with the all-terrain vehicles ; they were put in at mid-term registrations. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Madam Speaker, I have the same concerns undoubtedly that you have, that there is an opportunity for debate on this issue and all of these questions can be dealt with at that time . I have indicated clearly though, publicly , what the reason was for waiting until 1988. If the Speaker is prepared to have me answer that at this time, I will. MADAM SPEAKER: I'm having a bit of difficulty . It sounds to me like that's dealing with the date of Royal Assent or Proclamation of a particular

section of a bill that we haven 't yet debated in the House. Off-road legislation - dealing with only new or renewals MR. G. DUCHARME: I asked the critic several months ago, it isn't mentioned in the particular bill. Will this be deal ing with only new applications at this time , or will it dealing with only renewals as of October '88? It didn't mention that in the bill.

MADAM SPEAKER: Again , I think most of those questions have their proper place, either in principle and debate on Second Reading, or at committee stage dealing with clause-by-clause as to whether honourable members want to make amendments to bills to change those kinds of specifics. I would rule that they're out of order. Off-road legislation - are bombardiers included MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. E. CONNERY: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Highways, also on the same bill.

The fishermen have been approaching me, wanting to know if bombardiers are going to be included, or will bombardiers for fishing be exempt from the regulations? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Madam Speaker, I have clearly outlined which vehicles this legislation applies to. Clearly, those registered under The Highway Traffic Act, when operated on roads, are under the jurisdiction of The Highway Traffic Act. When they're operated off roads, then they come under the jurisdiction of The Off-road Vehicles Act. And again, these questions can all be dealt with during the debate and in committee.

Awasis - Northwest Child and Family Services - tabling of report re MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Community Services. Over the past few months, the Minister of Community Services has undertaken to file investigative reports by her department into the Awasis Agency, into the Northwest Child and Family Services with respect to at least five infants who died last year as a result of child abuse. Could the Minister indicate exactly when these documents will be tabled in the House?

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker, the Awasis Report should be ready within a week . The Northwest will not be complete until the fall, and I did outline the reporting 3124

Tuesday, 16 June, 1987 timetable or the factors affecting the infant deaths. The second one should be available shortly, because the appeal period is shortly to termina te with the court. Enderton caveats - restoration of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Madam Speaker, with a question to the Attorney-General. In the last Session of the Legislature, all Opposition mem bers supported, through a private member's bill, the restoration of the Enderton caveats.

The Attorney­ General, however, indicated in his debates and therefore the goverment's lack of support that the reason why they would not restore the caveats was that these individuals were adequately protected under the City of Winnipeg regulations. Will the government please restore these Enderton caveats, in that a city planner has now recommended a variance which could not have taken place under the Enderton caveats? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R.

PENNER: Well, Madam Speaker, the policy behind the legislation was that, in the latter half of this century, it's much better for municipal officials charged with the passage and delivery and monitoring of zoning rules and regulations govern the development of their respective towns, municipalities and cities in that way, rather than by the continued imposition of private caveats dating back to the turn of the century. That was the policy and, indeed, I think that policy was right.

At the time when the legislation was passed, indeed many months after the legislation was passed, it was suggest ed, princip ally by the Crescentwood Home owners' Association, that they were put in an invidious position and that development in that area would run away at some hurricane speed and the character of the neighbourhood would be changed. In fact, that has not happened. All that has happened, as I understand it from the premise of the question, is that one planner has made a recommendation that has not yet been adopted, indeed, from which if it went any further there would be an appeal.

To suggest that for that one occurrence after more than two years, we ought now to reconsider the policy, which gave rise to this change in legislation is not, in my view, a sufficient basis upon which to found public policy. MADAM SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has expired. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MADAM SPEAKER: May I di rect the attention of honourable mem bers to the gallery, where we have 20 students from Grade 6 from the Shaughnessy Park School, under the dir ection of Mr. C. Stark. The school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for lnkster.

And we had 17 students from Grade 7 from the Chemawawin School, under the direction of Mr. J.S. Sidhu, from the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Government Services, who unfortunately had to leave. On behalf of all the members, we welcome you to the Legislature this afternoon. The Honou rable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. E. CONNERY: Yes, Madam Speaker. Yesterday in question period on a point of order. MADAM SPEAKER: On a point of order. MR. E. CONNERY: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

The Minister made statements, Madam Speaker , that were not in line with the facts in Estimates and the Minister of Business Development impuned upon my reputation as a member of this Legislature, Madam Speaker. The Minister made several comments and she said that we didn't ask questions in question period or in � the Estima tes. Madam Speaker, it gets very difficult � when this Minister is cornered and will not . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Order, order please. Order please. The time to raise a point of order is at the moment that it happens not a day later. MR. E.

CONNERY: We have to have the same Hansard to prove exactly what the Minister said. Madam Speaker, we have the statement that she made and we did not ask questions on . . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Order, order please. Order please. If the honourable mem ber wants to use some other method, but a point of order the day after is not the proper procedure to use to voice that kind of a complaint. The honourable mem ber does not have a point of order . HANSARD CORRECTION MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Thompson. MR. S. ASHTON: I have a Hansard correction, Madam Speaker, on page 3076. The

section on first collective agreement legislation should read: "12 were imposed" rather than "12 were opposed." COMMITTEE CHANGE MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Kildonan. MR. M. DOLIN: I have a comm ittee change, Madam Speaker. I move, seconded by the Member for Elmwood, that the composition of the Standing Commit tee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources be amended as follows: C. Santos for the Hon. R. Penner. 3125

Tuesday, 16 June, 1987 ORDERS OF THE DAY MADAM SPEAKER: The Hono urable Government House Leader. HON. J. COWAN: I move, seconded by the Attorney­ General, that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented. MATTER OF GRIEVANCE MADAM SPEAKER: The Hono urable Minister of Labour. HON. A.

MACKLING: Madam Speaker, it gives me no great pleasure to exercise my right to grieve in this Cham ber, grieve about the inaccuracy of arguments that have been advanced from the Opposition's side in respect to matters that I hold dear and that is providing for a fair statement in this Legislature as to the labour relations environment in this province. Madam Speaker, yesterday I would have had an opportunity to have attempted to set the record straight, at least hopefu lly to do some correction of the misstatements of fact that were entered on the record.

But honourable members - and you ruled so - had raised points of order which were not points of order having the effect of taking the balance of the time . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. May I remind the Ho nour able Minis ter that all mem bers have the opportunity and the right to rise on what they perceive as points of order until they are ruled otherwise. HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker, I am not arguing the right of honourable mem bers to raise points of order .

But I was merely putting on the record the fact that there were three points of order raised, all of which were found by you to be not points of order, the practical effect of which was that the six minutes that I had left to utilize, to try and correct some of the misstatements, were used up in the process. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. May I also caution the Minister that I have taken the matter of the Honourable Minister's additional or non­ additional time for the interruption under advisement. It shouldn't be commented on until that ruling is brought in. HON. A.

MACKLING: Madam Speaker, it was not my intention to dwell at any length on that matter but merely indicate to honourable members that the occasion for my exercising my right to grieve today was as a result of my feeling aggrieved that in the very limited time I had yesterday it was impossible for me to put anything on the record because of the interruptions that ensued. That's all the point I was going to make. Madam Speaker, dealing with the question of the exercise of a grievance. I want honourable members opposite to know that never before in this Chamber have I exercised my right to grieve.

I believe, Madam Speaker, that to exercise a grievance one must feel that their rights to have spoken, to have put on the record views which they hold very sincerely have not been available and therefore, Madam Speaker, I do want at this time to put on the record some views in respect to the misstatements of facts and the clouding of issues that we've occurred from honourable members opposite in respect to labour relations in this province. Madam Speaker , we've heard the Ho nourable Member for Brandon West continuously in this Chamber suggesting that our labour law is unfair and biased.

Madam Speaker, he alludes to certification processes. The honourable member and others have wanted to make it understood publicly that somehow our laws were unfair to workers generally. Madam Speaker, the fact is that our certification processes in Manitoba find their counterpart in almost every jurisdiction in Canada. Where, Madam Speaker, do we find that they even endeavour to be fair about that? Not at all.

The fact is, Madam Speaker, that in every jurisdiction except Nova Scotia, the dominant Canadian approach is to determine the wishes of the emplo yees by counting membership cards and not by ordering votes in every case. Those are the Canadian facts in respect to labour relations law in this province. But those facts are never cited by mem bers opposite, Madam Speaker. Our certification process in respect to trade union recognition is a fair process. That is the process that is in place across Canada.

So when honourable mem bers seek to paint a picture of biased and prejudiced labour legislation in this province, they are not only wrong, they are deli berately wrong, because they know better. Madam Speaker, honourable members also talk about successor rights. In their speeches, including the speeches of the Honourable Leader of the Opposition, they have made it very clear that they think our successor rights legislation is wrong.

Madam Speaker, it is clear that, if a Progressive Conservative Government were elected in this province, not only would they change certification procedure to require a vote in every instance, they would also abolish successor rights in our labour legislation. (Mr. Deputy Speaker, C. Santos, in the Chair.) I notice the head of the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek nodding in approval. That's exactly what they would do, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

When the Honour able Leader of the Opposition raised in this House a couple of years ago a concern that the Superior Bus transfer of ownership had been frustrated by successor legislation, that's what he argued in this House. Again, he argued that falsely, because it was the same successor law that he and his colleagues had enforced when they were in government. That same law was adjud icated upon by the courts in this province. Now where, Mr. Deputy Speaker, do we find integrity and sincerity and honesty in respect to the

interpretation of labour law in this province? We certainly don't see it on the other side of this Chamber. Mr. Deputy Speaker, there is no question that, in the area of labour relations, there can be mixed views and divided opinions. But there is an obligation on the part of members in this Ho use to endeavour to know the fact and not to either cloud the fact or ind icate a state of fact that they knew or ought to know is wrong. That kind of deliberate ignorance, Mr. Deputy Speaker, is not tolerable. 3126

Tuesday, 16 June, 1987 Mr. Deputy Speaker, often we hear the concerns that our labour legislation is biased in favour of labour. It's against the interests of management and industry. We often hear of the Honourable Member for Brandon West and I hear the Honourable Member for Emerson saying, that's right, repeating with authority the concerns of the Canadian Federation of Independent Business. We know that they make surveys. We don't question their right to make surveys.

I think I could question the basis of some of their surveys, but I would like to put on the record some of the information that we have from their surveys about our labour legislation.

They had a survey in April '86, it was a provincial survey: "A summa ry of priority small business issues in Manitoba." You know, they asked questions about all these areas: tax burdens, Workers Compensation Board, government salaries, labour laws, costs of mu nicipal govern ment, Provincial Go vernment regula tions, di rect com petition with gove rnment agencies, government grants to competitors, other - all very slanted, all very biased, in my opinion, Mr. Deputy Speaker. But where did labour laws rank in this survey of concerns in April of 1986?

Well they ranked fourth in the concerns of small business; 35. 1 percent were concerned about labour laws, regulations and inspections. Well they did another su rvey, Mr. Deputy Speaker, in April 1987, and again the same areas of concern were reviewed, sugg ested to small business: tax burden, Workers Compensation Board, government salaries affecting the labour market, cost of municipal government, provincial government regulation, paper work, labour laws, regulations, government grants to your comp etitors, government agencies competing directly and so on. Well, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, one year later apparently the concern in respect to labour laws regulations and related inspections was no longer for it out of a total of 11 items, but now it had slipped down to 6 of those 11 items, and only 23.8 percent of these businesses surveyed rather than 34.8 percent said that these were priority areas of problem. So, despite the fact that we hear from members opposite that there's a great concern out there about the unfairness of our labour legislation, that's not what the small businessmen of Manitoba are saying in their survey results. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, when we introduce innovative legislation in respect to final offer selection - and I will not abuse the rules of the House by arguing in respect to that issue - but when we introduc ed that legislation a dramatic conversion occurs. Not in the minds or in the voice of the Honourable Member for Brandon West, but those people who had for some time been saying: Oh, the sky is falling. There's a cloud over Manitoba in respect to labour legislation. It's unfair and biased.

Those voices suddenly changed and they had a new line, and they were saying: We have a good labour relations environment in Manitoba. Why do you want to introduce this legislation? So, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I wanted to put on the record the fact that it is not my view alone, it is not the view of this government alone that we have a good labour­ relations environment.

The facts speak for themselves that when they're pressed, business people will tell you that it is more impo rtant to have good labour relations in the province and good labour relations means fairness to workers and recognizing the right of workers to organize and collectively bargain. That produc es a labour relations industrial environment where it's good to invest. And you say: Well, it's good to invest. What's the proof of that? The fact is that the statistics in Manitoba indicate clearly that investors are saying that Manitoba is the place to invest.

This is the place not only where there is growth and dynamic in the economy, there is wisdom and dynamic in government. There is fairness. There is fairness in respect to labour relations in this province. And those are the kind of funda mental economic environmental matters that are impo rtant when it comes to investment. Opposition parties can bluster all they want but the fact is that our labour relations legislation, condemned in 1972, condemned in 1984, has shown that it is fair and reasonable. When it comes to the application of that law, we are finding people who are well satisfied.

Expedited arbitration, grievance mediation - all of those innovations - first contract legislation found to be acceptable, at one time derided and criticized and it was said that this would create havoc. We have a good labour relations climate in this province. We have a labour relations environment that is the envy of provinces like British Columbia and Alberta. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I wanted to put on the record my concern that for too long in this Chamber we are hearing the negative, carping gloom and doom about labour relations in this province. The facts speak for themselves. The system is working well.

We will continue to innovate and ensure that there is fairness and reaso nableness in labour relations in this province. QUESTION put, MOTION carried and the House resolved itself into a Commit tee of Supply with the Honour able Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Depart ments of Ho using and Finance; and the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet in the Chair for the Department of Government Services. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - GOVERNMENT SERVICES MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Baker: Commit tee, come to order. The Minister would like a few comments before we begin. HON. H.

HARAPIAK: Yesterday there was a question asked about pol icy procedure for services and contracts. We have five copies of the policies. We will table those or give them to the members of the Opposition. They also asked for a list of emplo yee housing that we have on Government Services. We've got five of those, as well, and there was also a question asked about who was awarded the security contract at Keewatin Community College. A security contract was recently awarded to Canwest Investigations Ltd. and they were the lowest bidder of the four firms that responded to our invitational tender.

The other security people who tendered on it was Metropol, Barnes and 3127

Tuesday, 16 June, 1987 Trojan. There was also a question asked about the square footage for the Advisory Council on the Status of Women's Directorate Office. These offices are located at 500 Portage Avenue, that's in Colony Square and they occupy 3,880 sq. ft. and the cost per sq. ft. is $1 3.26. They also asked the question of the air conditioner in the P.C. Caucus Room and that's already been resolved . MR. CHAIRMAN: When we adjourned yesterday we had a resolution that we had to pass, Resolution 77.

Resolution No. 77: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $11 2,642,700 for Government Services, Property Management, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March 1988- pass. We will now begin with Appropriation No. 3.(a)

(1) Supply and Services, Executive Ad min istra tion: Salaries - the Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. D. ROCAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Under activity identifica tion, they state that it participa tes in the executive management of the department in the creation of departmental policies. In which way does it participate? HON. H. HARAPIAK: We have an executive management commit tee made up of the ADM's and they participate every two weeks. MR. D. ROCAN: Is this also the same group which is dealing presently with our federal Memorandum of Understanding? HON. H. HARAPIAK: That is correct.

I wonder if the member could move the microphone a little closer. We're still having difficulty hearing. MR. D. ROCAN: Under the same heading, it states that to establish an environment that is conducive to imp lementation of cost effective change. Can the Minister tell us a little bit, what does that mean? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: The executive committee are trying to foster a climate where we are encouraging an attitude of where we've become much more efficient in our operations as a department, and they are especially warning the people to come forward and feel free to suggest ideas as to where some im provements can be made. Some of the areas we have made improvements is the automation of the fleet and the automation in the Purchasing Department.

There has been much streamlining in the whole area of the purchasing area and there's been some fresh, new, innovative ideas in the whole tendering process, and also there have been some new ideas come forward in warehousing, how we're handling our supplies in the warehousi ng. MR. D. ROCAN: 3.(a)(1) and (2)- pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(

b) Fleet Vehicles:

(1) Salaries - the Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. D. ROCAN: I wonder if the Minister could tell us how many cars, trucks, whatever, that are in Fleet Vehicles. HON. H. HARAPIAK: There are 2,530 vehicles in Government Services, and that's made up of all different varieties. There are vans, mini-vans, mid- sized trucks, compact trucks, full-sized sedans, compact sedans and sub-compact sedans. MR. D. ROCAN: I wonder if the Minister could give us a breakdown of how many vehicles and what type of vehicles are in which departments. HON. H.

HARAPIAK: We can't give you the names of the different types of vehicles but, as of the 31 st of March, Legislation has 2 vehicles; Executive Council has 3 vehicles; Agriculture has 198; Attorney-General has 67; Consumer and Corporate Affairs have 5; Co­ op Development have 8; Finance have 102; Government Services have 190; Commu nity Services have 13; Industry Trade and Technology 53; Labour 53; Natural Resources 567; Municipal Affairs 90; Culture Heritage and Recreation 23; Highways and Transportation 369; PACE, which is the Department of Education, 24; Civil Service Commission 1; Manitoba Crop Insurance 26; Northern Affairs 37; Urban Affairs 2; Health 244; Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation 21; Energy and Mines 22; Manitoba Health Services Commis sion 21; Crown Investments 1; Commun ity Economic Development Fund 2; Frontier School Division 16; Housing 42; Environment Workplace Safety and Health 84; Business Development and Tourism 29; Employment Services and the Economic Security 97; Education 32; Provincial Auditor 1.

We have a Police Vehicle pool which has 87 cars in it, and the service equipments and the few vehicle equipments have 7. MR. D. ROCAN: I wonder if the Minister could tell us, what does it cost us to insure and to license these vehicles? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Insurance costs for our vehicles are $900,000.00. MR. D. ROCAN: Is it still the government's intention to sell gas from the provi ncia l ga rage in dir ect competition with the private enterpris•a? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Only if it's absolutely necessary. MR. D. ROCAN: Mr. Chairman, there was a study done last year, I believe in the provincial garage.

Is there any way that we can get a copy of this study as to the effectiveness of the garage? HON. H. HARAPIAK: I was under the impression that the mem ber already had a copy of the study but, if he does not have a copy, I would arrange to see that he did get a copy. MR. D. ROCAN: The reason I asked, because over there you've got a sign for it and, when you bring it back, you've got to sign back again. That's the problem. HON. H. HARAPIAK: Okay, I'll see that you get a copy of your own. MR. D. ROCAN: Thank you. 3128

Tuesday, 16 June, 1987 MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(b)(1) - pass ; 3.(b)(2) - pass ; 3.(cX1)-pass ; 3.(cX2)-pass . 3.(dX1) Purchasing : Salaries - the Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. D. ROCAN: (dX1), okay. Under Activity : "Provides all departments and certain boards, commissions and agencies, centralized purchasing , material identification and related services." Which boards are they looking after here? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: We do the purchasing for the Manitoba Disaster Assistance Board and also the Emergency Measures Organization and we act in an advisory capacity for some of the other boards like the Clean Environment Commission as well. MR. D. ROCAN: Is there a guideline established for tendering of purchases and I wonder if the Minister could table a copy of these, if there is one? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Yes, we have guidelines, and it's covered under The Government Purchases Act.

It's all commodity items, such as equipment, vehicles, food, medical supplies, chemicals, furniture, as well as specific services, such as courier equipment , maintenance agreement and transportation , they are all tendered. All suppliers who have requested an interest in bidding on government, those who are capable , are registered with the Purchasing Branch and they are invited to tender whenever there's a requirement. They do this by two methods: by direct purchasing, by field personnel and regular purchasing of the Purchasing Branch . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. G.

CUMMINGS: Is a supplier struck off the list if they do not supply any services after a certain length of time? HON. H. HARAPIAK: I am advised that the suppliers continue to be invited until such time as they do not tender and then they are struck off the list and they have to notify us again that they are interested . Once they notify again, they are back on the list. MR. G. CUMMINGS: In the tendering process, I realize automobiles and items of that nature could not be tendered to come from Manitoba, but do you have a Manitoba preference? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: We have a Manitoba preference - manufactured in Manitoba is where our Manitoba preference is; supplies that are manufactured in Manitoba. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Also , is the Minister saying then that for suppliers who do not sell manufactured-in­ Manitoba goods, that they could come from anywhere , provided they are the lowest price FOB Manitoba or FOB the point of order? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: Yes, the process is that the lowest supplier can bid, but it's FOB the point of use , because then it g ives the local supplier a preference by being in a position to deliver it, rather than having it delive red from an outside area . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Turtle Mountain . MR. D. ROCAN: I wonder if the Minister can tell us, have there been any purchases from Southwestern Man itoba, say, within the last year? HON. H. HARAPIAK: We don't have that information with us here, but we can certainly get that information for the member. MR. D.

ROCAN: Can we get it broken down , like southeast and north, and whatever? HON. H. HARAPIAK: We presently don't have it broken down by region, but I imagine if you have some supplier's name in Southwestern Manitoba , then we can see if that supplier has been successful in receiving a tender . Maybe that might be the best way to work it. If you've got some specific name you'd like to give us, then we could check if there were successful. MR. G. CUMMINGS: On that same line, Mr. Chairman , for department vehicles, for example , that is something that could be designated by region.

Is there a policy there , or are they all purchased within the City of Winnipeg , or are they purchased in Lac du Bonnet? HON. H. HARAPIAK: There has been a change in policy in the last year. Prior to this previous year, it was that all interested dealers and manufacturers were invited to purchase from the Purchasing Bureau to submit tenders. The manufacturers advised the discounts available for a tender, and dealers would then submit direct to the Purchasing Bureau for quotations including their markup . Then for 1987-88, the vehicles purchased and tendered are submitted to each manufacturer's zone office .

The zone office then requests tenders from their dealers, since zone offices are required to coordinate pre-delivery service and I guess that's what has really made the system much fairer is pre-delivery . So the people from Ste. Rose now can tender on it, as well as the people from Winnipeg, because the pre-delivery is done and this requirement makes it possible for all dealers in the province to participate in a tender process rather than just to Winnipeg dealers.

So it's made it a much fairer system and put the dealers, who are in the rural part of the province, on more of an even footing than they were previously . The number of dealers interested in receiving tender requests in 1986-87 purchase was 44, and 12 bids were returned and none of them were from rural dealers . For 1987-88, the manufacturer contacted all 136 of the dealers for tenders; 61 tenders were submitted, 40 were from rural dealers . MR. G. CUMMINGS: Were any of them successful ? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Yes, some of them have been successful from the outlying areas. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Item 3.(dX1)-pass; 3.(dX2)-pass. 3129 ,,

Tuesday, 16 June, 1987 3.(eX1) Salaries, Materials Supply - the Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. D. ROCAN: I wonder if we can get the total cost of all the new furniture purchased by the government within the last three years, and also a breakdown by government departments as to where this new furniture is allotted. HON. H. HARAPIAK: For purchasing of furniture for the year 1985-86, the actual was 1.3294 million; for '86- 87, it was 1.0344 million; and for '87-88, it is the Estimates, 1.0758 million. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, M. Dolin: The Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. D.

ROCAN: Where is the old surplus furniture stored? Is it stored here in the building or . . . HON. H. HARAPIAK: There are four ways we dispose of our furniture. The first is some spare furniture is kept in each building that we are occupying at that time. We try and redeploy or reuse furniture as much as possible to other departments when it's not required. We dispose of it for sale. I guess there's a list of the comp leted sales during '86-87. It's a lengthy list. Maybe I could just give the member a copy of that list, rather than reading the whole thing into the record. MR. D. ROCAN: The reason I ask, Mr.

Chairman, is that I was fortunate enough to come across a bunch of blueprints of existing furniture which was to come into the new Legislative Building, which I dona ted to Archives, and I was just wondering how much of that existing furniture was still around. HON. H. HARAPIAK: Some of the furniture is stored. Some of it that can be restored is stored in the Legislative Building here, and some is stored in the warehouse on Dufferi n. We are refurnishing it or recovering whatever is suitable for recovering. MR. D.

ROCAN: Are there guidelines established for the disposal of vehicles and office equipment, such as typewriters, computers or whatever? HON. H. HARAPIAK: We keep track of about when the office equipment is in need of repair. After which time the repairs are becoming too frequent, then we dispose of them through The Public Works Act and the General Manual of Admi nistration and the power of the Minister of Government Services to dispose of surplus material and equipment by donations to other governments or charitable organ izati ons.

Mo st donations are comprised of surplus office furniture, which is no lo nger suitable for governm ent, and donations of value - if there is a donation of value of over $25,000, it must be approved by the Lieutenant­ Governor-in-Council. All the fleet vehicles are di sposed of by auction. MR. D. ROCAN: The fleet vehicles that are disposed of by auction, are they all given a complete checkup through our garages before they are dis posed of? HON. H. HARAPIAK: They tell me that fleet vehicles are all sold as is.

At the time of the auction, we inform the pe·ople that they are being sold in that condition, and they are informed that they are also subject to being recalled by the Licensing Bureau. We also give them a complete history on any of the overhauls or any of the servicing that has been done on the vehicle. They keep track of when the vehicles are all serviced, so they give them that complete history at the time of auction. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Turtle Mountain, noting that smoking is prohibited at the meeting. 3.(eX1)-p ass; 3.(eX2)-p ass; 3.(eX3)-pa ss. 3.(

f) Telecommunications:

(1) Salaries - the Member for Ste. Rose. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Mr. Chairman, can we deal with (1) and (2) together. We have some general questions. MR. CHAIRMAN: Sure. MR. G. CUMMINGS: I'd be interested to know if it would be practical for individual mem bers of the Legislature, particularly Opposition members, to have two lines into their offices with the present equipment? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Two lines can be provided. However, this would increase existing costs by about $240 per annum, and a one-time installation cost of $50 for each MLA.

I guess the cost-effectiveness of this option should be considered, and it's worthy to note that existing MLA telephones do provide the user with a capacity to place an outgoing call while holding any call that may be in progress. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Mr.

Chairman, I apologize for not having brought this letter to the attention of the department sooner or privately but a constituent of mine - in fact the lady who works for me in my constituency office - encountered a great deal of difficulty to the point where she refused to use the 1- 800 number anymore because of the treatment that she received on the end of the line.

That has not been repeated lately, but I would like to ask the Minister and the department to express, or I'd like to have a chance to express to them my concern that we would have someone in there who would be unpleasant and belligerent to someone who calls in on the public line. That happened to have happened to a person employed by myself but, if someone from the general public were to receive the same treatment, I think it would be inappropriate. I hope that it would be pointed out to the individuals that is not condoned by government when we're trying to serve the public as best we can. HON. H.

HARAPIAK: I couldn't agree with you more. We recently had a meeting with staff at which I didn't encounter a belligerent person at the other end of the line but it just took a long time for me to get through, and I was calling in from when I was out in the country. It seems that it took a long time to get through, and I just shared with staff that it would be appropriate for someone in a time like that to say, sorry to keep you waiting, rather than just say hello. I guess the staff have 3130

Tuesday , 16 June, 1987 been informed of this, and they'll certainly be taking it up with the people, and there will be some corrective measures taken. MR. G. CUMMINGS: I'm finished now. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. D. ROCAN: Thank you. Making reference here last night to one of your assistants or famous MTS with their high tech and whatever, they've come up with a system which they call "call waiting" that can be just added on to the line. I wonder if the Minister has looked into giving us a price on what it would cost us for such a set-up. HON. H.

HARAPIAK: I happen to be one of the fortunate people who are living in a part of the city where that feature is available at home, and I found it very convenient. I guess this feature is available in this area, but I guess they found that the experience shows that it's just as annoying to the person who is currently on the line to be left on hold while the MLA takes the call, and this aggravation is made much worse for the first person who was on the call.

So I guess individuals may be better off served if the call is automatically forwarded to the caucus or the secretary to answer their call, rather than have the people waiting, be put on hold. Our communi cations staff would be pleased to discuss any concerns with individuals who are dissatified with the telephone services they are getting right now and, if they wanted in their particular case to get the call waiting, we could see whether they could have it. MR. D. ROCAN: This is already done, Mr. Chairman. It says, under your Activity Identification, it's supposed to evaluate the requirements.

Now, even members opposite, they are telling us that they, your backbenchers, would like to have more than one line coming in because they do an awful lot of work on the phone just like we do. I can't expect anybody to call me when I'm always on the phone trying to get out. There's no way they're going to get back in. It also says, "provides technical support." Now the Member for Kirkfield Park that night, she told you that she went ahead and she paid out of her pocket and she got another phone in. Now is there any reason at all why we may not get multili nes to all the MLA's? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: The Legislative Management Comm ittee deals with that and your budget is dealt with through theirs. If you feel there is a requirement for more phones, then I guess you would have to find it within your budget and it can be provided. You would have to priorize it as a service that you require within your caucus. MR. D. ROCAN: I wonder if the Minister could tell us then: Cabinet Ministers - how many phone lines would they have into their offices? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Two lines. MR. D. ROCAN: How many unlisted phone numbers do you have in your offices over and above your two lines? HON. H. HARAPIAK: One. MR.

D. ROCAN: So now we have three lines. True? Do all Cabinet Ministers all have unlis ted phone numbers in their offices? HON. H. HARAPIAK: I don't believe so. MR. D. ROCAN: Well, I believe so, but anyway. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 3.(f)(1)-p ass; 3.(f)(2)­ pass; 3.(f)(3)- pass. 3.(

g) Postal Services - the Member for Ste. Rose. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Mr. Chairman, there was an identification program started last year for mailings. Is it fully im plemented now or where is it at, to identify the source of mail and the cost from various departments? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Yes, we can identify all the mail. We are in the process of figuring out the costs for each department and each area the mail is coming from. MR. G.

CUMMINGS: Can the Minister tell me then: There's a seniors' mailing that comes consistently under the "Premier of Manitoba" letterhead on the envelopes, official Manitoba logo, obviously from the Legislature and the office of the Premier. The recent one includes this missal, which is Manitoba's natural gas policy, "Energy and Security at a Fair Price," four pages, not even filled but at least bulky. It includes a letter from the Premier defending his announcement of the natural gas policy: I've enclosed information on our natural gas policy, and if you require information to contact me.

There are several paragraphs in the middle where we talk about 200,000 Mani toba households, community institutions and small businesses rely on gas. Basical ly, what we have is a promo, an initiative, that the government has taken. The meter number is 163005. Can the department tell me who is paying the bill for this meter? HON. H. HARAPIAK: I will have to take that under advisement and get back to the mem ber. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Can the Minister or the Deputy Minister tell me if this is one of the identifiable letters that goes through the system to be credited to a department? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: If you had the left-hand corner of the envelope, that's where the identifying part would be. So if you've got the left-hand corner, then . . . MR. G. CUMMINGS: Is that right? There's no marks on it other than the official envelope that I can see. HON. H. HARAPIAK: It was mailed as a bulk mailing. So we'll have to take that as notice and get back to you, where it came from, but it can be identified. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Okay, the Minister says it can be identified. I presume he means through the postage 3131

Tuesday, 16 June, 1987 meter number. He indi cated that the left-hand corner of the envelope should have indicated which office this was attributed to. Mind you, the return address is the Premier's Office, so we would make the assumption that that's where it's being attributed to. But is that where the identifying mark would have gone or should have gone on this envelope? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: When letters are mai led individually, they have an individual marking on them; but when they are delivered by bulk, then we have an identification of the bag, and the first and last one are punched in and then they would still have a record of where it came from. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Then I guess I'll have to wait for confirmation from the Minister as to where the cost of this would have been attributed.

But I would like to say for the record that there has been a flurry of letters addressed to senior citizens, and I'm not sure if they all come from the same postage meter, but I would have to say that it seems to me that unless this has gone out as a franking piece, and it certainly doesn't appear to have been that because the computer indicates that it's S-2, which I would presume is Seniors 2 list, that what we are seeing here borders on being an abuse of mailing privileges, unless the funds that are used to pay for the cost of this mailing are coming out of party coffers.

If they are, then they should not be going out on "Premier of Manitoba" identified, official envelopes. What I would like to know is what is the cost to the taxpayers of this province for this mailing? Because I can narrow it down to this one, I don't need to know how many, of this particular mailing, who is paying for the envelopes, and under what appropriations the funds are being made available. HON. H. HARAPIAK: We can get that information for you.

All we can say is that everybody has a budget, they have to live within that budget, and they are distributing information that is government policy and government information. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Education. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I wouldn't want the Member for Ste. Rose to leave on the record some, I think, rather unfortunate remarks about the nature of the information that's being passed out to Manitobans. The government has an obligation to inform people of its policies and its programs and its legislation.

And although the mem ber didn't have the for tune or misfortune of being part of the Lyon admin istration, I recall some rather glowing and glossy advertising that cost Manitobans some $300,000 - advertising that was not directed towards a specific . . . A MEMBER: Just like the Jobs Fund advertising. HON. J. STORIE: It wasn't even as concrete as the Jobs Fund. It told Manitobans we were sitting on a gold mine, and what Manitobans knew was it was a land mine, not a gold mine. 3132 The fact of the matter is that this is announcing a policy that's going to save Manitobans some $50 million a year.

It's good legislation, it's good policy, and it's important that the people of Manitoba be informed about it, because, Mr. Chairperson, there are people who would distort and misinform people about the nature of the proposal and the intent, and that would be very unfortunate. We, as a government, must work hard to make sure that doesn't happen and that people are well informed. This is neither an abuse nor a misuse of funds. It is, in fact, informing the people accurately of our proposal and our intention, and every government undertakes, from time to time, to advertise and to commun icate with the public.

This is a very inexpensive way of doing that, and yet it's obviously quite effective. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Mr. Chairman, I only want to make a brief comment.

When I talked about the disappointment that I have in seeing this kind of use of mailing, it's very much like the former Minister of Educati on, and I'm sure that this Minister has cleaned up his act, but the former Minister of Education not only sent Christmas cards out of the Minister's office to the chairman of the school boards; it got down to where the principals and the vice­ principals and the vice-vice-principals were receiving Christmas cards compliments of the taxpayers.

I think that it's an abuse that both sides of the House have to work towards cleaning up if we're ever going to return some credibility in the eyes of the public about how we're spending their money. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think that's something one could look at overall. I know that every Christmas, I get Christmas cards from across the country. I know - that is from Conservative politicians who also send them to large numbers of constituents.

I know when Sterling Lyon was Premier of Manitoba, you could hardly go into a household in Winnipeg where people hadn't received a picture of Sterling, which was sort of frightening when you realize that it wasn't really Santa Claus at all. A MEMBER: It destroyed your whole outlook on Christmas. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Well, basically, most of them tended not to last too long. It sort of lasted between the mailbox and the garbage can. But, you know, one can look at those things.

Now that the member has raised a number of letters here, I think it would be appropriate to have them tabled so that the mem bers of the com mittee know what the contents are of these letters. Again, for history, let no one think that governments previously in Manitoba have not let their citizens know about government projects; and when they have not let people know about their projects and policies and so on, people get rather annoyed when they discover there's something happening that they're not cut in on, not told about.

Tuesday, 16 June, 1987 I think we have a responsibility, as government, to let people know about what it is that the government is doing. Certainly, I've seen a fair bit of misinformation coming out over the last while out of the Conservative caucus. A MEMBER: I made no comment on the contents. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Well, the member says he makes no comment on the accu racy of the contents. I think there are so many changes going on in this Chamber, constantly, that without us notifying people, there's no way people will know what those changes are, and I think it's appropriate for us to be able to do that. HON. H.

HARAPIAK: I think it's recognized that one of our most im portant roles as membe rs of the Legislature is to commun icate with our constituents, and we have recognized that. The commit tee of the Legislature has recognized that by giving us some additional franking privileges and others have to live within the budget that we have established. So if those are going out within an established budget and clearly it's a message, a program that the government is involved with, I don't think it's a message that isn't appropriate for that type of mailing.

The Mem ber for Turtle Mountain asked some questions on bid.ding for security contracts, I've got a copy of the sample here for him. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. D. ROCAN: 1, 2, and 3 pass. That's it. MR. CHAIRMAN: (d)( 1)-pass; (d)(2)- pass? MR. A. KOVNATS: Excuse me. MR. CHAIRMAN: Oh, I'm sorry. The Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: Yes, I have a few questions I'd like to ask on Santa Claus inasmuch as it's been brought up in the debate and I don't imagine it's been ruled out of order.

We get down to a point where everybody is trying to defend everybody else and we were criticizing the government for selective advising of the public. I can accept that criticism from the government members at this point, but I think that there's also got to be some criticism to the government in hiding a lot of things, particularl y wha t's happened in Workers Compensation over the years. We've had some problems and I don't think that they should be hidden. They shouldn't be hidden any longer.

There are going to be some questions on some of the facts and figures on Workers Compensation and the manner in which the last three Ministers, including this Minister, have involved themselves in the operation of Workers Compensation. I think it should be on the record that, when the member across the way made some mention about Sterling Lyon being Santa Claus or mistaken for Santa Claus, there's no way that the public of the Province of Manitoba can mistake Howard Pawley for Santa Claus under any circumstances, because Santa Claus is supposed to be a . . .. A MEMBER: With the natural gas policy we can.

He'll give them back $15 0 a family. MR. A. KOVNATS: I beg your pardon. Santa Claus is sup posed to be a benevolent person, an honest, hardworking and trustworthy person. I'll tell you the Premier of this province fits none of those categories,

whereas the former Premier of the Province of Manitoba, Mr. Sterling Lyon, fits them all. A MEMBER: Ho, ho, ho! MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister for Industry, Trade and Technology. HON. V. SCHROEDER: . . .- (Inaudible)- . . . other than to say there would be none . . . A MEMBER: Could you turn on his microphone so it could be recorded for posterity? HON . V. SC HROEDER: That we can have the Opposition please make up their mind. We have one member saying don't send material out and we have another mem ber saying send it out.

But when they have a unified position on this one, maybe they could come back to us and tell us what they would particularly want us to do. In the meantime, if I'm correct, although the document still hasn't been tabled, if I'm correct and the document has to do with the issue of natural gas pricing and the whole issue of how we are dealing with standing up for Manitobans, while the Opposition Conservative Party is busy standing up for Al bertans, busy standing up with Trans Canada Pipeline, busy meeting with the people who are keeping prices unfairly high in Manitoba, then, Mr.

Chairman, I think that it's appropriate for us to be lett ing Mani tobans kno w what it is that government policy is and specifically what it is that we are doing. We don't apologize for that and I know I've had constituents contact me and tell me they appreciated the information, that it was put together in a way that was quite informative and made sense. They were hoping that things would go well for the government because, if they went well for the government, they would go very well for consumers and small business people in Manitoba. MR. A. KOVNATS: Mr.

Chairman, the Honourable Minister just made a remark about that we should reach a unified position. Mr. Chairman, we do have a unified position. Our position is unified more than I can state at this point. We are unified to the point where we are going to do everything in our power to see that there will be a change in government, so that the people in the Province of Manitoba can have good, reliable, responsible people representing them in government, not the ones that are in government right now. So we do have a unified position, Mr. Chairman, and that is a unified position to change the government in 3133

Tuesday, 16 June, 1987 the Province of Manitoba from a New Democratic Party Government to a Progressive Cons ervative Party Government. HON. H. HARAPIAK: I guess I would like to get back to the comments the Member for Niakwa made on the Workers Compensation. Normally the Workers Compensation is discussed under the Minister's Salary, so I would prefer to leave that portion of our Estimates until we get into the Minister's Salary.

The Member for Niakwa said on several occasions that we can't have it both ways because we're in Opposition, and I guess that's what the Minister for Industry, Trade and Technology is referring to when he says that you haven't got a unified position because, on several occasions, he said we can have it both ways when we are in Opposition. I guess that's what he was referring to. MR. A. KOVNATS: Yes, I did say we could have it both ways, but the Minister is making it very selective on which ways are the both ways.

I say that you spend money where it is needed, where it is required and you cut back where it's wasted . That was the reason that I said that you could have it both ways and those are the two ways I'm talking about - spending monies where required, needed, and cutting back where it's wasted. This government knows where it's wasted, because they are professionals at wasting money. HON. H. HARAPIAK: I guess this is touching in the area of our Estimates of the Department of Government Services, because we have been very efficient in the delivery of our services.

I don't think we have been wasting or cutting back in areas where it's not needed. I think he can point at any department that we've got, including the Department of Finance where there has been responsible admin istration in the use of our funds. So, I don't think you can, in all fairness, point out and say that we have been wasting money and not cutting back where the programs aren't. We are committed to maintaining the services in the area of social services; that we have maintained and kept those services up; that we have cut back in areas where there haven't been requirements. MR. D. ROCAN: Under what

section are you discussing right now? MR. CHAIRMAN: We are now on Appropriation 3, and we are discussing (

g) Postal Services. HON. H. HARAPIAK: That's all been passed. MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay. So we have a Resolution then. Resolution No. 78: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $3,270,700 for Government Services, Supply and Services, for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March 1988- Pass. We are now on Appropriation 4.(a)

(1) Project Services, Executive Admin istration: Salaries- Pass; 4.(a)(2)­ Pass. 4.(b)

(1) Design: Salaries- pass? - the Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. D. ROCAN: Can the Minister tell us how big is our Manitoba Government art collection and what is its estimated value? HON. H. HARAPIAK: We have hundreds and hundreds of Manitoba, primarily Manitoba paintings, and we haven't done a recent evaluation of the paintings, because many of them have increased in value because of artists who are no longer with us and who have received national acclaim, so some of the pieces of art collection have become very valuable.

We don't have a total value of our art collections that belongs to the Province of Manitoba, but we can get you a list. We have approximately 1, 000 pieces of art that is the property of Manitoba Government. So if the member would like a list of all the 1, 000 pieces, we can get you a list, because I don't think you'd want me to be read ing into the record all the numbers of the thousands of pieces of art that is in our property at this time. MR. D. ROCAN: I asked the Minister what was the value, and now I'd just like to know - this art collection, is it insured? HON. H. HARAPIAK: No.

We do not carry insurance on our art. We have very good security that we are very proud of and they are looking after it. MR. D. ROCAN: Just like the Louvre. HON. H. HARAPIAK: It is self-insured. I am advised that we are covered under the government insurance policy, that they are part of that coverage. MR. D. ROCAN: Up to what value, though? HON. H. HARAPIAK: The Department of Finance would have that information. We don't have that information. MR. D. ROCAN: I will pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(b)( 1) to 4.(e)(2), inclusive, were each read and passed.

Resolution No. 79: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $3,256,500 for Government Services, Project Services, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1988- pass. Ok ay, we are now in Land Value Appraisal Commission, 5.(

a) Salaries-pass? - the Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. D. ROCAN: Did you pass all of 5 or 5.(a)? You can pass 5 in its entirety. MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(a)-pass; 5.(b)-p ass; 5.(c)- pass. Resolution No. 80: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $55,600 for Government Services, Land Appraisal Commission, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1988- pass. We are now in Appropriation No. 6. Emergency Measures Organization, 6.(

a) Salaries- pass; 6.(

b) Other Expenditures- pass - the Member for Ste. Rose. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Mr. Chairman, I'm not going to spend a lot of time on this, because we've just spent a fair amount of time on the new bill. I guess we were a little startled at the number of changes and 3134

Tuesday , 16 June, 1987 amendments that were brought in, in connection with the new bill. I see there was an announcement that there was federal funding. I haven't got the announcement in front of me, but we recently received a cheque from the Federal Government on the funding to go towards emergency preparedness. Is that related at all to the emergency preparedness position that we are putting ourselves in as we set up the new EMO Act? Or is that the $249,000 that's alluded to under Recoverable from Canada? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: Yes, that is related to it for the preparedness of the emergency measures, and the Federal Government pays it to us on a quarterly basis. It is dealing with the preparedness for the Emergency Measures Organization, the new bill. MR. G. CUMMINGS: The expenditures of those funds, are there any strings attached to the expenditure of those funds, or does that come as dis cretiona ry spending within this program? HON. H. HARAPIAK: We submit a budget at the beginning of the year. This isn't the first year it's been going. It's been going on for several years.

We submit a budget annually and, at that time, we submit a list as to the projects that we will be funding under that program, and then we are tied to that commitment. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution No. 81: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $673,200 for Government Services, Emergency Measures Organization, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1988- pass. We are now on Appropriation No. 7., Expenditures Related to Capital, (

a) Acquisition /Construction of Physical Assets - Government Related -p ass; (

b) Vehicle Replaceme nt-pa ss; (

c) Office Equip ment Replacement-pass; (

d) Departmental Capital -pa ss. Resolution No. 82: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 6,497, 100 for Government Services, Expenditures Related to Capital, for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 1988- pass. We now revert back to the Minister's Salary. HON. H. HARAPIAK: We were making such great progress in the last little while. I wonder if we could just keep going and pass the Minister's Salary. I'm just wondering if the Leader of the Opposition will give me a few moments to go and get my books.

I did not think we would finish Government Services, so I've got to go and get my material for Workers Comp. Can you wait for a few minutes? MR. G. FILMON: Certainly, Mr. Chairman, I'd like the Minister to be prepared. MR. CHAIRMAN: I declare a five-minute recess. (RECESS) HON. H. HARAPIAK: Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a few brief remarks prior to the opening of the Estimates for the Workers Compensation Board. As is customary, I've asked the senior staff of the board to join me this afternoon to assist in responding to any of the detailed or technical questions which members of the comm ittee may have.

I would like to introduce to you the Chairperson of the Workers Compensation Board, Sonny Arrojado; the Chief Executive Officer, Ken Kurbis; and the Secretary of the Board, George Davis. Prior to my remarks, I would like to thank all the staff of the Workers Compensation Board for their hard and dedi cated work over the last while. The past year, as well as the years facing us, indeed present a challenge through the compensation system.

On the positive side, an expanding economy has provided more industry-covered emplo yees in our province but, on the negative side, this has led to an increasing number of workplace accidents. These increased accidents not only add to the costs of the compensation but, even more importantly, reflect the imme dia te need for a doubling and a redou bling of efforts to prevent those human tragedies.

The prevention of accidents is a subject that exceeds all political boundaries, but we are certain all members will wish to work cooperatively with us in our effort to reduce and prevent as many of these devastating injuries as is humanly possible. My colleague, the Honou rable Gerard Lecuyer, the Minister responsible for Workplace Safety and Health, will be releasing a report in the near future which proposes a variety of approaches which can be taken to reduce accidents in the workplace.

It is a report which will go a long way towards the prevention of injuries, and one which I feel confident we can all support. Mr. Chairman, we have recently received a draft copy of the report of the legislative commit tee which has just spent the past 20 months reviewing The Workers Compensation Act and the Workers Compensation system. This is the first time the act has been reviewed in 30 years and, as could well be expected, the comm ittee had nume rous concerns and recom mendations on how to improve the system for workers and for employers.

In spite of the fact that final printing of the report is not yet available, we were determined to make the dr aft copy available to mem bers of the Official Opposition and to all of the members to facilitate them in bringing any issues which may concern them to our attention during the Estimates process. In looking back at the evolution of the compensation system during the past decade, it is obviously in retrospect that changes should have been occurring in a pro-active, rather than re-active man ner.

Assessment rates should have been regularly and uniformly increased to keep pace with the rest of the boards in Canada, and they were not. Consequently, increases had to be levied over the past four years to bring the level of services to workers and emplo yers in Manitoba in line with other boards throughout Canada. However, in spite of these increases, the board is still in a position of unfunded liability, which the auditors have stated as being $84 million. There are a variety of reasons leading to the current situation, the foremost being that: 1.

The compensation rates were kept artificially low in previous years. 3135

Tuesday, 16 June, 1987 2. The government and the board introd uced the majority of recommendations of four government reports. The recommendations in the Lampe Report carried significant cost implications to the operations of the board. 3. The fact that we are attempting to provide injured workers with meaningful rehabilitation, and that is a question that has quite often been raised in the Legislature and been debated for the last little while about the rehabilitation that is going on.

We know that there's been a lot of progress being made, but we also recognize that there is a lot of reform to be carried out at this time. 4. Also, the increased number of accidents, because of the recovery of the economy. (Mr. Deputy Chairman, H. Smith, in the Chair.) There are ma ny other reasons leading to the increased costs, including increased medical and chi ropractic costs, com puterizi ng the Workers Compensation Board but, in the interests of brevity, I will only highlight a few.

Moving com pensation from the 19th to the 20th Centur y has major cost imp lica tions, and we acknowledge that we have a major responsibility in analyzing and measuring the cost-effectiveness of our programs. This is specifically why, when we appointed the legislative review commi ttee to review the act in 1985, we asked them to evaluate board policies and procedures as well. Twenty months ago, we struck the Workers Com pensation Legislative Review Comm ittee, chaired by Mr. Brian King and com posed of Ms. Lisa Donner, the labour rep, and Mr. Tom Farrel l, the industry rep. The chairperson, Mr.

Brian King, has experience with the Workers Compensation system, both as an injured worker and as an adminis trator. In 1967, he was seriou sly injur ed in an indus trial accident in Saskatchewan. He received assistance from the com pensation system in the form of benefits and rehabilitation and, from 1979 to 1984, he served as the chairman of the Saskatchewan Workers Com pensation Board. Ms.

Lisa Donner, the labour nom inee on the comm ittee, is a graduate of the University of Manitoba School of Social Work and, since 1982, she has been Executive Director of the Manitoba Federation of Labour Occupational Help Centre, and has assisted injured workers with claims for Workers Compensation benefits and services. Mr. Tom Farrell was appointed to the com mittee to reflect the views of Manitoba industry. Since 1977, Mr.

Farrell, in his position as superintendent of safety and protection with lnco Limited, Manitoba Division, has been res ponsible for coo rdina tion of empl oyee rehabil itation programs, for development and coordination of safety and health programs, and for the admin istration of The Workers Compensation Act as it applies to lnco Limited. Throughout those 20 months, they have met with workers, compensation claimants representative of both busi ness and labour , personnel of the Workers Compensation Board and other interested Manitobans.

They have dealt with many complex issues and are now offering many useful suggestions on how to make the system work even better. They have analyzed what is happening in other provinces, so that we can compare our system against the general norms and learn from the experiences, the successes and mistakes of other jurisdictions. Most impor tantly, they have provided a com prehensive report which will serve all Manitobans as a key building block for further reform of our Workers Compensation system. We asked this committee to review and critique our system from a number of different perspectives.

To their credit, they have reached a consensus on most issues they analyzed. On occa sion, they have come to differing opinions as to how to proceed, but that occasional lack of consensus is overshadowed by their common understanding and aspirations for future development of the Workers Compensation system. The report contains 17 8 far-reach ing recommendations and a considerable amount of impo rtant thought-provoking background information.

As a relatively new Mini ster in the Workers Compensation field, I welcome this opportunity to take an in-depth look at dir ections we can take to reform the system, particularly the directions that have strong support from representatives of both labour and management, under the guidance of an experienced and able chairperson.

This government's aim in setting in motion this strong­ mind ed comm ittee and the public process that accompanied its deliberations was to get clear insight as to where the problem areas in the complex machinery of Workers Compensation might be, and to find possible solutions to these problems. The report is both detailed and forthright, as we hoped it would be. While it supports strongly the government's contention that change was needed in 1981- 82 and generally approves the government's dir ection and philosophy, it raises a number of areas where implementation fell short of our aims.

As the review commit tee ind icates, Workers Comp ensation systems across the country in every province are undergoing significant change in respect to new challenges. Manitoba is not alone in wanting to make the system more effective and more efficient. Secondly, the review comm ittee acknowledges that significant change has taken place within the Workers Compensation system during the past number of years. Most of the people in this room will remember the major complaints and criticisms of the existing system, which peaked in 1981. Since that time, a number of areas have undergone significant change.

Many of those changes have resulted in positive benefits, and even more change can be brou ght forward on that foundation. At the same time, there are areas where the results of the change have not been as anticipated and it is necessary to chart new directions in order to deal with those unanticipated problems. The review comm ittee provides a number of recommendations in those instances. The commit tee ident ifies several themes in the executive summ ary. I would like to respond briefly to each of those themes.

Of course, the government will be reviewing each of the 17 8 recommen da tions contained in the report over the next number of months with the intention of implementing major reforms to the system as required. 31 36

Tuesday , 16 June, 1987 The comm ittee, as their first theme, identified the need for rewriting The Workers' Compensation Act to make the system "more open and accountable" to its clientele. It is also suggested that this new legislation be developed in a "language, format and style that makes it acceptable to the average reader." The government has long recognized a need for changes to the existing legislation which, coincidentally, has not had a major rewrite since its first draft in 19 16, and, in fact, that was one of the prima ry reasons for the establishement of the review comm ittee in the first place.

It is my hope to bring forward major amendments to the legislation dur ing the next Session of the Legislature. In the meantime, the specific recommendations of the review comm ittee and other suggestions will be reviewed by the government within legislative context. Consultations will also be undertaken on possible legislative changes with clientele of the Workers Compensation Board. The review comm ittee also calls for a more open, cooperative and less adversarial Workers Compensation system. The Manitoba Go vernment has al ready undertaken significant steps to provide for that more open environment.

Minutes of Workers Compensation Board commission meetings are made available to the general public upon request. The review commit tee has suggested that these earlier reforms must now be followed, and the government will be working with the Workers Compensation Board of Comm issioners to determine how that can best be accomplished. At the same time, we recognize the critical importance of continued support of the Workers Compensation system by the community of em ployers. To maintain and strengthen this report, we recognize the need to ensure fair, consistent and efficient admin istration of the board.

We welcome those recommendations that suggest ways to make the

interpretation of poli cies more straightforward and predictable. We will, of course, view favourably those suggestions aimed at guarding against delays, abuses or misunderstandings. We want to incr ease the accou ntabil ity of the Workers Compensation system to both em ployers and workers. We also want to improve the efficiency of its internal lines of commun ications and decision-making. Since Workers Compensation is an example of employers and emplo yees working together for the benefit of all, the credibility of the system is important to everyone.

The com mittee has also recom mende d ma jor changes in the structure of the board which will be reviewed in detail. I expect to be able to announce a more definitive response to that recommendation once that analysis has been completed. The board's structure will not be altered until the work is acco mplished. While the review comm ittee is critic al of the rehabilitation process in Manitoba and makes several strong recommendations for cha nge, it does acknowledge that significant changes have been brought forward in this area during the past number of years.

It must be remem bered that prior to 1982 there w�s very little rehabilitiation. Since that time, major changes have been made which resulted in a number of successes as well as a number of continuing problem areas. The review commit tee has helped to identify where those problems might be dealt with in future activities. The rehabilitation of injured and ill workers is a major goal of the Manitoba Government, and we are looking forward to implementing significant changes in this area through both legislative and program del ivery opportunities.

While it may not be possible to follow all of the recommendations of the review comm ittee in this regard, they will certainly provide a strong focal point for dis cussions on what changes may be accompli shed and I expect that many of them will be established as the nucleus of future changes. The review comm ittee also provides a number of specific recommendations on making the administrative and adjudicative process of the Workers Compensation more effective and efficient.

The government will be meeting with the Workers Compensation Board to determine specific actions that can flow from the recommendations of the commit tee in the near future. As I have indicated on many numerous occasions, the matter of financing a system like the Workers Compensation Board is a challenging task. As the review commit tee suggests, the financial condition of the Workers Compensation system in Manitoba com pares favourably with other jurisdictions. But there are many problems throughout the country, and specifically in Manitoba, that must be dealt with in the near future.

Work is already ongoing in this area and will continue now, with the benefit of the overview and recommendations of the Review Comm ittee to assist in analyzing the specific problem areas and identifying possible solutions. Clearly, our commitment to the continued strength and success of Workers Compensation is strong. Our review will be far-reaching and deep. We will not shrink from making significant changes in the system where they are warranted, especially when support for such changes comes from both the emp loyers' and emplo yees' representatives.

At this point, I personally believe it will be necessary to rewrite The Workers' Compensation Act and I look forward to the opportunity to be one of the architects of a new and improved Workers Compensation system. Before we turn it over to the Leader of the Opposition, I would like to point out that two of our present board mem bers are here: Don Bulloch, who is the representative of industry; and Al Fleury, who is our labour representative, is also present at our comm ittee hearing. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I appreciate the opening statement by the Minister, and I just want to say to him that, unfortunately, we were having difficu lty, as well, planning for the time in which this would occur; and I will give a brief response to his opening statement and have to wait to debate many of the issues with him on Thursday when we continue the consi deration of the Workers Compensation Board, and my other colleagues have a number of issues they want to raise.

The Minister, in his opening statement, has given some acknowledgement of direction from the report of the King Review Commi ttee and has painted a very rosy picture, of course, in his view, of positive aspect s 3137

Tuesday, 16 June, 1987 not only of that report but of the operations of the Workers Compensation Board. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the Minister is in some land of make-believe when he sees only the positive side of the Workers Compensation Board achievements over the past while, because this major report, this 500-page report which we have anticipated for quite some time, follows on, as I have pointed out, I think, over the past number of weeks, many internal studies and reports, many that this Minister should have been aware of.

This Minister obviously was kept in the dark because he referred to all of these reports as being simply internal documents of the board and nothing that should be made public, nothing that should be dealt with by the Legislative Assembly, because it was all internal documents, whether it be the review that was prepared by the Director of Finance, Mr. Wiebe, sometime late last year; whether it be the document that was prepared by Mr.

Cormack into the rehabilitation problems, the rehabil itation program problems at the Workers Compensation Board, many of the things that had been done before, the analysis that was done by the actuaries, all of these things that the Minister should have been well aware of. In tact, I would think that his predecessor should have been well aware, certainly, Mr.

Lecuyer, the previous Minister, should have been aware of the fact that the board was not being well operated and it wasn't just the kinds of things that were investigated by the auditor last year when he investigated matters, I think, that concerned nepotism and a few other things.

There were massive problems with respect to the admini stration of the Workers Compensation Board, with respect to its dealing with all of the problems under its administration and the huge changes that had taken place over the past three or four years in policy, in di rection, huge changes that were occasioned by political dir ection, in my view.

All of those things have resulted in the turnaround of the Workers Compensation Board, from being in the position at the end of 1981 of a $36 million surplus, to today being in a deficit position, that if you believe the King Report and the Wiebe Report, is probably close to $18 4 million. I believe that this Minister is totally irresponsible, Mr.

Chairman, if he suggests that this is all news to him, that he's only been waiting for the King Commi ssion to give him a blueprint for future action and that he needs three to six months to begin the massive task of implementing some im perative new changes in di rection that have been laid out for him by the King Com mission and others that have been laid out for him by the so-called internal reports that were done by Wiebe and by Cormack and by the actuaries, Mercer, and others.

This Minister persists in carrying on in a mode of pol itical damage control and I see that he's got his chief advisor on policital damage control, Mr. Balagus, sitting in the back row there - very interested in the proceedings of this whole event because this is the whole objective of this exercise, is political damage control. This Minister is not going to solve the problems of the Workers Compenation Board anymore than his predecessor and the predecessor prior to that did because, quite frankly, Mr.

Chairman, there is plenty 3138 of evidence whether it be from the King Commission Review or from other reviews, that it is the political interference and the political decision making and direction of this administration that have caused the massive problems at the Workers Compensation Board. And when, in 1982, Mr. Cowan moved in as then Minister and utilized the complaints that were being made at that time, and let's make no mistake about it, there were problems at the Workers Compensation Board that should have been addressed, but he changed everything, Mr.

Chairman, on the premise that the problems were in commun ications and management, and he made massive changes without having any idea what the long term costs would be. This Minister sits here and he repeats the same kinds of statements that were made by Mr. Cowan and by Mr. Lecuyer as they were Ministers in charge of the Workers Compensation Board, saying that they have fixed up all of the problems and complaints and he utilizes as his major answer - no matter what the question is - that the surpluses had been built up in the past on the backs, or at the expense of injured workers, of widows and orphans.

And quite frankly, Mr. Chairman, that is an absolute crock because what he is saying, is that the system that was put in place and that was carried through by the Schreyer administration of having long term public servants, non-political people operating and managing the Workers Compensation Board with an equal balance of representation of people from both the employer groups and the employee groups administering the board carefully, wisely, without political interference, and following a system by which they lived within their means.

The set rates would allow them not only to cover their current costs, but to build up funds for the long-term liability of the Workers Compensation Board so that they could settle their claims and pay them off and had the funds in place to do that. Replace that in fact with a politically appointed board of three people, three people given much more power, because they were put in a full-time position.

So he wiped out the long- term civil servants who had administered the board, wiped them out completely and replaced them with politically motivated, politically appointed people to operate in the form and in the function and in the direction that the government chose to go, ignoring of course totally the tact that there was an appeal process under the old system. But that appeal process was, of course, administered by a board that was equally representative of workers and employers and wasn't a politically motivated and politically appointed appeal board.

That system changed entirely to the stage that now those staff who are still at the board - and I believe that there are many people at the board who are comm itted civil servants - who want to do a good job, but they find themselves in a position, Mr.

Chairman, that their decisions, their judgments - and they are people who are professionals in many cases - whether they be doctors, whether they be workers who are trained to assess the insurance costs and indeed the results of claims and accidents and put forward their recommendations, they're finding that in 75 percent of the cases, when something has appealed to the board, it's overturned. So over the process of years under that kind of situation, they now find themselves perhaps being in

Tuesday, 16 June, 1987 a position of not wanting to be em barrassed, not wanting to be rebuked by the board overturning their judg ments, so more and more they're settling all claims more easily. Even to the point that claims are being settled, as we know from the Wiebe report, that there is no mandate for under the act at the present time, Mr. Chairman.

We're finding that claims are being settled out of the new fund that's been established, the Rehabilitation Fund, which has now become almo st a political action fund because it can be accessed by ministerial influence, or indeed the Minister's liaison representative, or in deed by the board acting in a way that says that if there isn't a way to settle this under the terms of the act we'll settle it under the overall aegis of a rehabilitation program that we've now created for this purpose, to give us far more political control. I mentioned the Minister's liaison officer, I believe his name is Mr. Carroll. Mr.

Chairman, not only is this board politically appointed by this admin istration, but this Minister needed to have, or at least he and his predecessors needed to have a liaison person to the board who would give further political input into the decision-making of the board. That is the reason, Mr. Chairman, why the board has now gone from a $36 million surplus, to a $18 4 million deficit in a period of five years, not because the previous board was being unfair to injured workers. As I said earlier, Mr.

Chairman, there may have been instances that should have been addressed, but there certainly weren't instances that would warrant changing the entire purpose of the board and the entire dir ection of the board so that it was under total political control of this administration, indeed, so that it was out of control in an adminis trative sense. So that, as things stand tod ay, during that period from 1971 until, for instance, 1975, a four-year period, the income of the board went up 104 percent, resulting in emplo yers paying just about a doubling of rates on average to the board over that period of time.

Yet the same number of claims are being settled by that particular board, Mr. Chairman. Payouts are up 78 percent, but adminis trative costs are up 111 percent, Mr. Chairman. A hugh increase in the number of staff who are employed by the board. Are these benefiting the workers, Mr. Chairman? For instance, during the period of 1982 to 1985, the staff of the board went up 54 percent. Is that giving more benefits to injured workers? To the widows? To the orphans, that this Minister says he's interested in? No, it's adding to the bureaucracy; it's adding to the admin istrative cost.

It's the same kind of nonsense that we talked about in this comm ittee about the new carpets in the senior adminis trative offices, the panelling on the walls, the new automobiles, all those kinds of things that are done on the backs of injured workers, Mr. Chairman. That's the reality of what has been done by this Minister and his predecessors at the Workers Com pensation Board. Those are the reasons.

Of course, we even look at the premise under which the King Comm ission reported, and the King Comm ission has brought forward a number of useful recommendations, and a number of areas that obviously are going to require attention. But the King Commission, of course, used as its basis of decision-making a number of things. Input from the public, many, many groups, organizat ions and ind ividuals came to the King Commission and told of their problems and concerns with the Workers Compensation Board. But it also went through and examined a number of files.

As I recall it, we had to change the act in order to allow them access to workers' files. There was a suggestion that there was all too much in the way of secretiveness on the part of the administration at the board, on the part of the senior administration, that they required access eventually to the Legislature to allow the