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September 12, 2012

40th Parliament, 1st Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2012-Sep-12 (PDF)

L078 - Wed 12 Sep 2012 / Mer 12 sep 2012

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L’ONTARIO

Wednesday 12 September 2012 Mercredi 12 septembre 2012

ORDERS OF THE DAY

HEALTHY HOMES RENOVATION

TAX CREDIT ACT, 2012 /

LOI DE 2012 SUR LE CRÉDIT D’IMPÔT

POUR L’AMÉNAGEMENT DU LOGEMENT

AXÉ SUR LE BIEN-ÊTRE

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

LEGISLATIVE INTERNS

ORAL QUESTIONS

AGENCY SPENDING

AGENCY SPENDING

ONTARIO PUBLIC SERVICE

GOVERNMENT POLICY

AGENCY SPENDING

NUCLEAR ENERGY

HEALTH CARE

AGENCY SPENDING

LABOUR DISPUTE

LABOUR RELATIONS

AIR AMBULANCE SERVICE

ABORIGINAL CHILDREN AND YOUTH

PUBLIC TRANSIT

GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

ST MARYS CEMENT

MUNICIPAL FINANCES

ROBBI WELDON

LAKERIDGE HEALTH

NUTRITION LABELLING

MAYFAIR THEATRE

TERRY FOX RUN

CARNET DE LA FRANCOPHONIE

DES AMÉRIQUES

FOOD PROCESSORS

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

FIRST RESPONDERS DAY ACT, 2012 /

LOI DE 2012 SUR LE JOUR

DES PREMIERS INTERVENANTS

REGISTERED RETIREMENT SAVINGS

PROTECTION ACT, 2012 /

LOI DE 2012 SUR LA PROTECTION

DES RÉGIMES ENREGISTRÉS D’ÉPARGNE

EN VUE DE LA RETRAITE

ABILITY TO PAY ACT, 2012 /

LOI DE 2012 SUR LA CAPACITÉ

DE PAYER

PETITIONS

ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION

AIR-RAIL LINK

ELECTORAL REFORM

BREAST CANCER

HEALTH CARE FUNDING

ELECTORAL REFORM

HEALTH CARE FUNDING

REPLACEMENT WORKERS

TRANSPORTATION INFRASTRUCTURE

HEALTH CARE FUNDING

DOG OWNERSHIP

RADIATION SAFETY

AIR AMBULANCE SERVICE

ORDERS OF THE DAY

ONTARIO ELECTRICITY SYSTEM

OPERATOR ACT, 2012 /

LOI DE 2012 SUR LA SOCIÉTÉ

D’EXPLOITATION DU RÉSEAU

D’ÉLECTRICITÉ DE L’ONTARIO

The House met at 0900.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Good morning. Please join me in prayer.

Prayers.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

HEALTHY HOMES RENOVATION

TAX CREDIT ACT, 2012 /

LOI DE 2012 SUR LE CRÉDIT D’IMPÔT

POUR L’AMÉNAGEMENT DU LOGEMENT

AXÉ SUR LE BIEN-ÊTRE

Resuming the debate adjourned on September 11, 2012, on the motion for third reading of the following bill:

Bill 2,

An Act to amend the Taxation Act, 2007 to implement a healthy homes renovation tax credit / Projet de loi 2, Loi modifiant la Loi de 2007 sur les impôts en vue de mettre en oeuvre le crédit d’impôt pour l’aménagement du logement axé sur le bien-être.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Further debate?

Mr. John O’Toole: I’m very pleased to complete my remarks from yesterday. I just want to put it into reference here. This Bill 2, which is the healthy homes renovation tax credit, is simply window dressing, as has been said by many. Others have used the term “half measures.”

I think I’ve made reference to the logistics of it all. Technically, to renovate homes for seniors is a laudable idea, but in the context of what they’re actually doing to seniors, it’s even more troubling. They’re not building any more long-term-care beds. They’re now regulating retirement homes, which is a tax on seniors—when you move into a retirement home, there’s this new tax of about $15 a month—on top of the HST and home heating and all the other issues. Then there’s home care. There’s not enough time for home care. For my constituents, the biggest complaint I get is there’s nothing in that home care envelope for them.

We have an aging population. They know it. Their strategy is called aging at home, but it’s really aging alone, and this bill does nothing to help people. It really is simply window dressing.

There’s a very scathing report that was issued a few days ago called Falling Behind. What it says here, in my last remarks, is that Ontario is the worst in Canada when it comes to growing poverty, increasing income inequity and financial support for public services. This is a coalition report.

This government has lost its way and seniors are paying the biggest price. These are the very people, our mothers and fathers, who built this country. So I can’t support it in the extent that it’s going forward, but I look forward to others’ remarks.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Questions and comments?

Miss Monique Taylor: I am happy to rise and lend my voice to this debate. It’s something that we know is good. We do think that seniors need help, but it’s unfortunately just not enough. To be giving a tax credit on $10,000 or less, if it may be, isn’t going to help families who are already struggling. For families who don’t have enough money to keep the hydro on, how are they going to come up with this extra money to make it work?

I know when I was campaigning in my riding and knocking on doors, I had seniors—one who had an oxygen mask on her face, and here she is with her grown son, who also can’t live independently. How is something like this going to help that family? We need real, sincere things that are going to make a difference in a senior’s life. How about our initiative to take the HST off home hydro? Things like that would be a serious effect to a senior’s health, to their home life and to keeping them happy in their homes.

We have a lot of bigger issues than this small little bill would deal with. I just believe that we can do better, and I hope that this government will look at things that will do better and not just the little piece that’s going to make them look good at the end of the day, saying that they’re helping seniors with a new tax credit, because unfortunately it really is just not going to do enough for the seniors in my riding.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Ms. Tracy MacCharles: It’s my pleasure to rise again to speak about the healthy homes tax renovation credit. I’ve continued to speak on this and the importance of this bill in the context of our overall strategy to support seniors who wish to remain independent, at home, with dignity as they age.

A number of members opposite yesterday wanted to see the numbers, and I would just like to kindly refer them to Hansard last week where I spoke at length about the number of seniors, the tens of thousands of seniors we expect to benefit from this bill.

We also had a question from members opposite about the cost of this bill. I would refer them to the budget that contains the financial strategy for how this program will be funded.

I also want to take the opportunity to remind everybody in the House and everybody who’s watching that this credit is not just for seniors who own or rent a dwelling, but it’s for family members who perhaps have a parent or grandparent who want to apply for the healthy homes tax renovation credit.

Another myth I’d like to dispel is that the bill does not require that renovations be made of $10,000; it’s up to $10,000 to receive a tax credit.

Again, the important thing is, this is part of a broader strategy. We’ve invested in more PSWs to help seniors at home; that’s already happened. We have an aging strategy. We have an ongoing commitment for seniors who do need long-term care; that commitment continues. This strategy on the healthy homes tax renovation credit is to help people who want to stay at home to stay home as long as they can and age with dignity and grace.

Thank you very much. It’s always a pleasure to get up and speak about this bill.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Mr. John Yakabuski: I made a point of getting back here this morning to hear the rest of the speech of my colleague from Durham because it’s always an enjoyable and riveting experience to be part of that. He touched upon a lot of things, as the member for Hamilton Centre did as well.

This government has wonderful words about how they’re providing this or that or more for our seniors. But I can tell you in my constituency office, as the member from Durham talked about yesterday, every day we get more files opened and calls concerned about the inability to get that home care service that this government talks about providing so much of.

The bill is a whole lot of fancy words and verbal commitments, but the reality is that there’s nothing there. The things that people need, the things that seniors need, are not being taken care of.

They come out with this tax credit for renovations to supposedly keep people at home. When the furnace is gone, it costs $4,000 or $5,000 to replace a furnace. This bill won’t help them, won’t help them at all. When they can’t pay the hydro, this bill won’t help them. When they can’t pay their taxes, this bill won’t help them. But no, if you’ve got the money to spend on a renovation to make it more disability accessible, “Oh, well, we’re going to back you up on that.”

This is about knocking off the dominos one at a time on the support issue, and when I say support, I talk about the political support. This is, one at a time, picking on this group or that group and saying, “Look what we’re doing for you. Aren’t we wonderful? My name is Dalton McGuinty. Don’t forget me in the next election.” That’s the kind of stuff that’s going on here with this bill, when there are real problems for seniors at home and they are not addressing them. That’s what’s missing here. What are you doing to address the real problems for seniors at home?

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments? The member from Algoma–Manitoulin.

Mr. Michael Mantha: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It’s always a pleasure to rise. In Algoma–Manitoulin, this bill may help some. You know what? It may actually help a few more than some. It’s a bill that makes a small contribution in terms of providing that financial assistance. Let’s face it, not every senior out there, not every one of those households, has this $10,000 to spend on their homes, or as my friend the member from across the way said, up to $10,000.

Most seniors can’t even afford their hydro bill at the end of the month. Most seniors are struggling, having problems affording their full complement of groceries and good, healthy food at the end of the month. That’s where we should be putting a lot of our efforts and really providing them with the assistance they actually need.

A small step forward would actually be looking at endorsing the bill I proposed on the HST. That is something tangible they can put their teeth into that will give them the extra monies they need at the end of the month to meet their monthly requirements.

What we’d also like to see in this bill, which isn’t in there, is that there is no domestic content requirement in terms of the procurement of either construction materials or medical assistive devices. We should look at making sure that is in there, that that is part of this bill. That is something that will definitely help seniors in our communities.

It really troubles me when we look at making that nice bullet—the headline—that makes the newspaper, where it says the government of the day is helping seniors. I agree with a lot of the comments the preceding member made, but we really need to look at how we can make this bill actually work so it can be beneficial to our seniors as a whole.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Thank you. The member from Durham has two minutes to reply.

Mr. John O’Toole: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I’d like to acknowledge and thank the members from Hamilton Mountain, Pickering–Scarborough East, Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke and Algoma–Manitoulin.

I would only say this: The common theme I heard is, it’s too little too late—whether it’s their heating bill, whether they can afford it or whether they can afford drugs that have gone up, the price of gas; just the common things.

But one thing that we—that’s Tim Hudak and Andrea Horwath—agreed on together is that we acknowledge that one of the best and simplest things to implement would be to reduce the HST on home heating. It’s doable, we agreed with it, it was in our election platform and the NDP agreed with it as well. That would be my message to the minister, if he’s even interested in listening. But it seems that they have only one desire.

The HST itself is the biggest single burden on seniors today. Every single thing they get, whether it’s physiotherapy, having their income tax done or buying gasoline, it costs more—13% more on every single thing I’ve mentioned. So they take 13% right out of the pocket of every senior in Ontario. The price of gas—

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Order, order.

Mr. John O’Toole: I’ve touched a nerve.

Interjection.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): The member from Algoma–Manitoulin.

Mr. John O’Toole: They can respond if they wish, but here’s the truth. Why is gasoline so expensive? Gasoline in itself is an example where it’s now going to cost 8% more—8% more on gasoline alone. If gas is too expensive, eight cents of it is the HST, eight cents of it. Every single thing you buy or every service you get costs more in Ontario and you get less.

Interjections.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Point of order, Speaker.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Stop the clock, please.

Mr. John Yakabuski: I would ask that the member for Thunder Bay–Atikokan withdraw his comments directed at my colleague from Durham, questioning whether or not my colleague was actually telling the truth. That is not allowed in this House, and I would ask the member to stand up and withdraw.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): I will ask the member from Thunder Bay—you can shake your head and shrug your shoulders, but it won’t help you. I’m asking you to calm it down a bit and don’t make direct accusations if you can help it, okay? All right?

As far as ruling him out of order: I don’t think it’s a point of order. I will decide whether he’s crossed the line or not. Thank you to the member from Renfrew. That’s the end of that discussion.

Continue, member from Oxford.

Mr. Ernie Hardeman: I’m pleased to rise to speak to Bill 2, which the government named the healthy homes tax credit. It took me a while, Mr. Speaker, to figure out why they named it that, and then I realized that it was because the tax credit is only to help make the home healthier but not make it healthier for the people in the home. Because, in fact, as we go through the notes, we will find that the people who really needed that help to make the home healthier for them—it’s really not available for them.

The government is trying to make people believe this bill will make it affordable for seniors who are struggling to stay in their homes, but that simply is not true. This bill gives seniors a tax credit of 15% on home renovations to a maximum of $1,500 a year. That means the senior still is responsible for 85%. On renovations of $10,000, the senior will have to pay $8,500. Now if the renovation costs $20,000, that will be over the maximum, and the senior will then have to pay $18,500. For many seniors, Mr. Speaker, that’s simply not an option.

Income levels have no impact on the amount of support that seniors would receive. So the wealthy senior who can already afford the renovations will be able to use it; the senior who is living on modest means is not going to be able to benefit from that because they cannot come up with the 85%. For seniors who are already struggling to pay their bills, the 85% they are responsible for means that they still can’t afford to renovate their homes. They can’t afford to put in new accessible showers or ramps, no matter how much the government pretends otherwise.

In fact, at $10,000, about half of the tax credit goes to cover the increased taxes on home renovations thanks to the Liberals’ HST. Now, if the renovations cost $20,000, the whole tax credit will go simply to cover the increased cost of the HST—

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): There are nine sidebars going on. I cannot hear the member, and he’s right beside me. So I would suggest if you have any discussions you want to carry on, you know where you can go: out in the lobby. I don’t want to have to warn you again. Thank you very much.

Mr. John Yakabuski: That’s the end of that discussion.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Yes, it is.

Mr. Ernie Hardeman: Mr. Speaker, this was an election promise designed to distract people from the concerns about the rapidly increasing cost of living in Ontario. There was no real implementation plan.

Seniors on fixed incomes are among those people who have been hardest hit by the government’s policies that are leading to spiralling hydro costs, increased taxes and families having less and less money left at the end of every month. The HST increased the cost of hundreds of items and services, including many of those that seniors rely on to stay in their homes, such as snow removal, firewood and lawn maintenance. It also cut into their incomes by increasing the taxes on everything from magazines and vitamins to haircuts.

It forced the cost of hydro up 8%, in addition to all the increases caused by this government’s extensive green energy experiments. In fact, this government’s own documents revealed that the cost of energy is set to go up 46%. I’ve heard from many seniors in my riding that the cost of hydro is making it unaffordable to stay in their homes.

And it seems the government continues to hit seniors with extra costs every time they turn around, such as increasing the fees of driver’s licences and vehicle plate stickers. For seniors in many areas of my riding, the ability to stay in their home requires that they still be able to drive, but with these increased costs and increasing insurance, this simply is becoming more and more of a challenge.

This tax credit won’t address these problems. It won’t help the struggling senior who needs the support the most. It’s really just a public relations exercise to make it look like this government is doing something. The seniors in my riding, Mr. Speaker, are smarter than that.

If the government really believed that this tax credit was to provide a significant benefit to seniors, they would have brought this bill forward for debate more often last fall and this spring, instead of choosing other priorities. Mr. Speaker, this bill was introduced as bill number 2, the first one after the election. Here we are today, almost a year later, and we’re still debating the same bill.

If they really believed it was going to make a difference, we would have been debating it two weeks ago, instead of spending two and a half hours debating a motion on full-day kindergarten which doesn’t make any legislative changes. It makes you wonder whether introducing this right away when they were re-elected had more to do with public relations and pretending to care for seniors than actually doing something to help our seniors.

There are many things that we should be doing to help our seniors. We need to look at long-term-care homes. We need to look at home care. We need to stop the spiraling cost of living so they can actually afford to stay in their homes, Mr. Speaker.

In fact, if this bill actually assisted low-income seniors, like this government claims, they would have created a new problem for the very people this bill was supposed to help. Last year, when he was on the campaign trail, the Premier told seniors to go ahead and spend the money for the renovations, because anything from October 1 onwards would be covered. When the Liberals introduced the bill, they included a clause to make it retroactive to October 1, 2011, but they haven’t made the bill a priority.

They didn’t warn those seniors that almost a year after they spent the money, the bill still wouldn’t be passed. Very few low-income seniors can afford to do renovations not knowing whether they would qualify and having to wait a year for the money, so having it retroactive to last year is really only benefitting those who can already afford to do the renovations.

You remember during the campaign that the Premier said he was implementing this tax credit early because of the concerns with our economy. He predicted that implementing it early would create the demand for more skilled jobs.

The media reported, “At a campaign stop in Pickering on Thursday, McGuinty promised to roll out a tax credit for home renovations 15 months early in an effort to stir up new jobs.” Although the articles described the Premier being asked about the jobs, “He couldn’t say how many more jobs will come from applying the credit to renovations starting October 1 instead of the original rollout” date. So there was absolutely no plan or no projections done on what the benefit of moving it up 15 months would be.

If he didn’t know what was going to happen in the first months, I expect he had absolutely no information on what was going to happen after the 15 months either.

If moving the start date up to October was going to have such a big impact on the economy and the lives of our seniors, why is it that, almost 10 months after introducing the bill, we are here debating it today? If he was so worried about the economy, and this bill was going to make a difference, why didn’t the government bring forward this bill for debate more often? Once again, it shows this bill is about public relations. It isn’t really about helping our seniors or creating jobs. In fact, it has become clear that the Liberals still do not have a jobs plan.

Mr. Speaker, this reminds me of the warning to always check the fine print. In fact, the people of Ontario have discovered that is always a good policy with Liberal campaign promises, because many of them appear to be more about good public relations than good policy. If they are delivered at all, they aren’t quite what the people were led to believe they were getting, just like the Liberals’ commitment in the last election when they promised to create one-window access for our farmers. That, a year later, still has not been done.

Now, when you ask the Minister of Agriculture about that, he says he believes in a no-wrong-window approach, Mr. Speaker, and I ask you and all the members of this House what that could mean: no-wrong-window approach.

Of course, there was the famous campaign promise in 2003, when McGuinty looked Ontario voters in the eye and said, “I won’t cut your taxes, but I won’t raise them either.” He then proceeded to introduce the health tax, the HST, and cancelled the planned corporate tax decreases.

On this side of the House, we take a different approach. We believe that, rather than implementing a tax credit that barely covers the sales tax, the government would be better to look at policy that actually improves the lives of our seniors, to make it so they don’t need to be afraid every time their hydro bill arrives, to make it so they feel their government works for them instead of tying them up in red tape and continually hitting them with additional costs. We believe that a government should have a real jobs plan.

We believe that governing a province should be about good policy, not just good public relations. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, for allowing me a few moments to speak to this bill.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Ms. Teresa J. Armstrong: I’m happy to rise today to talk about the healthy homes renovation tax credit bill that is here before us.

The purpose of this bill that the Liberal Party has brought over is that they’re trying to meet one of the major planks they had in their platform last election, and that’s to assist seniors. So in bringing this bill forward, their intent is to keep seniors—those who have health issues and might need aids or home renovations in order to remain there—in their homes longer. So we agree with the intent of the bill.

The other part of the bill is that they’re saying they’re going to create 10,500 more jobs to stimulate the economy. But as my colleague said earlier, there’s no clause in there for procurement, a buy Ontario policy, or also to assist seniors with small medical devices they might need. They might not need a whole bathroom, but they might need a handrail in the bathroom, and they may have to ask a contractor to install that. That also costs extra money.

When you look at the small amount they may have to spend, which is a lot to seniors because they’re on a fixed income—a lot of seniors are women who are living in poverty—they don’t even have that small amount to pay. And if they do, they’re going to get a very tiny tax credit on that.

The beauty of the bill—and it’s not so good-looking once you look at it; it’s kind of very distasteful—is that you have to spend at least $10,000, and most seniors who are struggling today do not have $10,000—

Ms. Tracy MacCharles: Up to.

Ms. Teresa J. Armstrong: —up to—to recover up to $1,500.

I understand the intent of the bill, but it’s not going to help seniors who really need it, who are in poverty and are on such fixed incomes. They can’t even make those small renovations, let alone up to $10,000. So the intent is there, but this bill really doesn’t go far enough to help the seniors who truly need help to stay in their homes.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Mr. Yasir Naqvi: Thank you very much, Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to speak for a couple of minutes. I think it’s really important to recognize some key facts.

Yes, it is true that this was part of our party’s election platform, and I’m really proud that the first thing we did after getting elected as a government was to fulfill that campaign commitment. I think that’s a good thing, and people did vote for this party as a government to ensure that the promises made in the campaign were fulfilled.

The second important point to talk about is that it’s not a commitment that somebody has to spend at least $10,000; it’s up to $10,000. Somebody can spend $1, $2, $10,000, $500, and they will get a certain portion back for making their homes more affordable. I’ve spoken in this House many times—if you go to a Home Hardware, as my friend the member from Peterborough likes to talk about, or to Conval-Aid, which is a very specialized business in my community in Ottawa that provides equipment for seniors, these things—for example, an elevator or chair lift costs about $4,000 with installation, and 15% is a significant saving on those type of things.

To the member for Oxford’s comments, yes, healthy homes result in healthy families. We want to make sure our seniors continue to live at home if they have a home and they’re living in their home. That’s a good thing. That will allow them to ensure they have independent dignity. If you speak to any senior, they’ll tell you they don’t want to be in a long-term-care facility, they don’t want to be in a retirement home, they don’t want to live with their loved ones. They want to live independently in their home. It is incumbent on us to take every opportunity, every step to facilitate that.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Mr. Victor Fedeli: I appreciate the opportunity to rise and speak about this yet again.

We on this side of the House have said over and over that this bill is tinkering at the edges. Our member from—

Mr. Ernie Hardeman: Oxford.

Mr. Victor Fedeli: —Oxford eloquently said this morning that this is window dressing. What the pressing issues really are, Speaker, are about the 600,000 men and women who woke up this morning without a job.

Now, it’s interesting in Ontario. We have a dichotomy happening here. Two weeks ago Friday, I visited Central Welding in North Bay, a long-time family-owned business, and the owner and his son Erik Thomsen brought me through the facility on Friday. The one problem that they shared with me is they cannot find skilled workers in Ontario. That’s the kind of issue we should be addressing here. Central Welding, who would like to expand, who build bridges and steel structures all over the world, cannot find skilled trades in our city, yet we have high unemployment in Ontario, 600,000 men and women.

We have a disconnect between the people who are looking for work and the companies that need workers.

On Sunday night, I went to the Eid dinner in North Bay, and at the table I sat with two young men who I’d never met there before, and they explained to me they are brand new to North Bay. They moved here Friday. They are welders who moved here from Tunisia to work at yet another steel manufacturing company in North Bay. Business is very good for those companies if they were able to find the employees. We have a disconnect between the 600,000 who are not working in Ontario and those companies who are looking for men and women.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments.

Miss Monique Taylor: Again, I’m pleased to be able to stand to add a few more comments to this debate, because I’ve been sitting here going through my stuff and recollecting so far back when we originally started this debate.

Mrs. Liz Sandals: A very long time ago.

Miss Monique Taylor: Yes, it’s been a while. So it came back to me: This is another one of those Liberal initiatives that if people have money, they’ll be rewarded; they’ll get the money back. People who don’t have money are not going to be able to use this tax credit. We need to come up with things that maybe—loaning the money up front for people who need it might be helpful. It would be easier for them to then pay back small loans, because we know we’re not getting anything for free.

The NDP had come out with real solutions in their campaign for assisting seniors: solutions like more hours into home care, programs for home maintenance, cutting the grass, shovelling snow, getting groceries. These are the things that are really going to affect a senior’s life. These are the things that they’re struggling with. If a senior isn’t able to shovel their snow in Hamilton, bylaw’s going to show up not knowing that it’s a senior—not that it matters, because they didn’t shovel their snow. What’s going to happen? They’re going to get a ticket from bylaw for not cleaning their sidewalks.

These are the kinds of things that seniors struggle with, and they’re things that I heard on a daily basis before I was elected to this office. So we need more. This bill certainly isn’t going to do it. We need to make sure that we’re taking care of seniors in a proper way, where they actually can stay in their homes, because saying that the rich people can stay in their homes and people who can’t afford it can’t is a two-tier system for our seniors, and not exactly what Ontarians deserve. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Thank you. The member from Oxford has two minutes.

Mr. Ernie Hardeman: Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the members from London–Fanshawe, Ottawa Centre, Nipissing and Hamilton Mountain for their comments to my presentation.

I just want to point out that the member from Ottawa Centre I think pointed out the essence of my, shall we say, opposition to this bill when he said that this was an election promise of a year ago and nothing has been done yet, but he’s very proud of the fact that we’re now working on it. I think this is the way that they look at it. They don’t understand that the problem with the bill is that it was intended to help people who couldn’t afford the total cost of doing it themselves, but if we are debating that bill today, all those people were not able to implement anything because they needed approval for it.

It wasn’t good enough, because the Premier’s word is not considered that good in the province, when he said, “Don’t worry about it. We’re going to introduce it. We’re going to make it retroactive.” So they couldn’t afford to put their name on the bill of lading when they delivered the product because they didn’t know when they were going to get the money, or if their application would even be approved.

Mr. Speaker, there are a lot of exceptions in this bill of what doesn’t qualify for the tax credit. So people who could not afford it upfront and needed that to make it happen, they had absolutely no way of knowing that they would be eligible, so they are still waiting to make the application. All the applications, all the jobs that have been done—if any have been done on this program—are being done by people who could afford to do it without the tax credit.

So I think the money would have been much better spent on things like reducing the cost of living in Ontario, so these people could pay their hydro bills and stay in their own homes. They could pay for their other services they need around the home, as I mentioned in my remarks, and have to pay 8% more because of the HST. If, instead of a healthy homes tax credit, they would have made it a healthy seniors tax credit, they could get a tax credit for some of the things they have extra costs on because of this government’s actions.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Further debate?

Ms. Laurie Scott: I’m pleased today to rise today to give comments on the healthy homes renovation tax credit, Bill 2. I will emphasize that it was brought in a long, long time ago, and we’re still discussing Bill 2, but the government controls that agenda.

My riding of Haliburton–Kawartha Lakes–Brock is home to an increasingly large number of seniors. In fact, according to the most recent census data, which is available from Statistics Canada, nearly 20% of the population of Haliburton–Kawartha Lakes–Brock is over the age of 65; this compares to a provincial level of 13%. So not only does my riding have a naturally aging population, but we are also experiencing an influx of seniors from the greater Toronto area, who have decided to retire to the beauty of Haliburton–Kawartha Lakes–Brock.

Consequently, I have a keen interest in legislation which may be of benefit to my seniors—a very small group of my seniors. But anyway, that is the problem with this bill: It benefits a very small segment of the over-65 population. The bill is designated to provide financial assistance to seniors who want to renovate their homes in order to make them more compatible with their aging lifestyle, thereby allowing them to stay in their homes for as long as possible. I can’t argue with that; it sounds good.

I said earlier that my riding of Haliburton–Kawartha Lakes–Brock had a growing seniors population. In fact, the percentage of residents over the age of 65 is 46% higher in my riding than in Ontario as a whole. This is another bit of data from Statistics Canada that is equally interesting: The median household income in my riding is more than 12% below the provincial average. Consequently, a disproportionate percentage of my seniors are going to be at or around that $25,000-a-year median income. Realistically, how big a deal is the healthy homes renovation tax credit going to be for the vast majority of seniors living in my riding of Haliburton–Kawartha Lakes–Brock?

I haven’t heard of any senior centres in Lindsay, Bobcaygeon or Fenelon Falls planning healthy homes renovation tax credit parties or festivals. None of the seniors’ clubs in Haliburton or Beaverton or Peterborough county are organizing parades, street dances or fireworks to celebrate the passage of this bill. So when I sit down with the “old boys,” if I can use that phrase, who gather every morning at their local Tim Hortons, I can assure this House that the healthy homes renovation tax credit is not the primary topic of conversation. In fact, this bill is a non-event for most seniors in my riding.

The seniors whom I deal with are more interested in how they’re going to pay their hydro bills, the essential services they need in their lives. This past winter, many of them called my office for help in stopping OPG from disconnecting their electricity and plunging them into cold and darkness. Many seniors are struggling to pay their outrageous hydro bills, which this government has brought down on them like a plague. It is the number one issue in my constituency office, and I’ve said that time and time again.

Once they scrape the money together to pay for their hydro, they’re often left in a quandary in terms of buying food. God forbid that they would want to waste the little money they have left on buying a present for a grandchild. Has this government been listening to any of this? Because it certainly doesn’t look like it to me.

Very few Liberal members represent rural or small-town ridings, and I truly believe that they have totally lost touch with what is going on across the province. The impact which the McGuinty government’s green energy program has had on rural Ontario has been terrible; scandalous. People have to leave their homes; it’s that serious. Citizens’ groups have sprung up across the province to fight the continued proliferation of industrial wind turbines near schools and residential areas.

Dozens of municipalities across Ontario have passed motions demanding that wind turbine projects not be approved since the government silenced them from the approval process. Homeowners, including many seniors, have seen the value of their properties go down as a result of the wind turbines and solar farms; that’s not helping seniors. Yet, this government doesn’t acknowledge any of that. We repeat it and repeat it, bring motions and bring private members’ bills, and it just continues its relentless pursuit of green energy despite the human costs.

It reminds me of the Death Star in Star Wars wreaking havoc and destruction in its path as it makes its way relentlessly across the galaxy. However, when the good citizens of the Liberal-held ridings of Scarborough objected to a string of industrial wind turbines across the shores of Lake Ontario, the McGuinty government’s ears perked up. The McGuinty government sure heard the voices of the seniors who live in those communities.

What this government has done to seniors and lower-income people across the province is nothing short of outrageous. They talk a good game, but their actions demonstrate they’re really not interested in addressing the very real problems of seniors and low-income Ontarians.

The member from Hamilton Mountain has said many times in the House, and said again this morning, that they’re not addressing the little things that keep seniors in their houses. Shovelling the walkways, more home care: That is what the seniors are screaming for. Bringing in a piece of legislation like this will do absolutely nothing for the average senior in this province.

I have no doubt that the members for St. Paul’s and Toronto Centre will have parks named after them by the grateful seniors of Forest Hill and Rosedale when they use their $1,500 tax credits towards redecorating their condos in Fort Myers and Clearwater. This is a feel-good bill for them. It makes the Premier feel good while doing almost nothing for the people of this province who look to their leaders for help.

Last November, the PC caucus supported a private member’s bill sponsored by the NDP which would have removed the provincial portion of the HST from home heating bills. That bill wasn’t a panacea, but it was a definite step in the right direction. That is why my colleagues and I supported it during second reading, and it passed. Bill 4 passed second reading on November 24 and was referred to the Standing Committee on Justice Policy.

Maybe I was away, but I don’t recall that bill ever being referred to committee yet. I don’t think it has been—no?—let alone being brought back to this House for third reading. That bill would have benefited all seniors, not just the affluent seniors that the McGuinty government seems to be more concerned about. Where was the social conscience of the McGuinty government then? They really don’t have one.

Seniors in this province don’t need gimmicks like this bill; they need a resolution to their astronomical hydro rates and heating rates. They’re having a crippling effect on them. They need the government to take a deep breath and rethink its disastrous green energy policies, which have hurt countless seniors, families and businesses across the province. The McGuinty government needs to get serious about fixing the growing problems in health care if it truly wants to help seniors.

It needs to get its financial house in order, to bring government spending under control through such measures as a legislated, across-the-board public sector wage freeze. It needs to haul in the obscene waste of taxpayers’ dollars through a string of scandals at such enterprises as Ornge, Samsung, the Mississauga power plant cancellation and the notorious eHealth boondoggle.

It needs to get serious about job creation by accepting PC policy reforms that would update outdated apprenticeship programs, which would generate thousands upon thousands of skilled tradesmen to fill much-needed voids in their economy. I could go on and on. It would be great if more of the young people could access it, but the ratios need to change so more can access it.

Fixing the finances of the province, getting serious about job creation and lowering corporate taxes to stimulate a reinvestment in research, innovation and hiring are the ways to help seniors and all hard-working people of Ontario, because they’d have more money to spend on health care and education. When the deficit bills and debt bills come in as the third-largest budget item, we are not able to help health care and education.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Mr. Michael Mantha: Once again, this has been a long debate on this bill, and here we are again, still debating it. It’s a wonderful, feel-good, fuzzy-wuzzy-feeling bill. We will more than likely be supporting this. I know some of the seniors in my area will be very, very active in pursuing this bill, but overall, it won’t be addressing the mass that we need.

I just wanted to make a comment on the member from Ottawa Centre, who clarified the point that my member said earlier, that they can spend up to $10,000, and you’re absolutely right. The bill doesn’t require—if you spend $2,000, you can get a credit on the $2,000 that you’re spending. You’re absolutely right. But even the $2,000—not many individuals have that—

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Well, folks, certainly the decibel level’s going up, especially in that corner down there and a couple of sidebars over here. I cannot hear the member at the back. I would suggest, if you want to have a group session, you go outside. All right? That would be much appreciated.

Continue.

Mr. Michael Mantha: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Again, I just wanted to clarify that point: Not too many people have that $10,000 to spend, or the $2,000, let alone $200. That’s a reality that seniors are facing in this province.

The member from Pickering–Scarborough East, in her earlier debate, also talked about how this is going to be creating a wealth of jobs. It will, some, but it won’t in the majority, because there won’t be that many seniors that will be able to take advantage of this program. Let’s face it: This is, again, a fuzzy-wuzzy, feel-good, lovey-dovey bill.

I want to comment on the member from Haliburton–Kawartha Lakes–Brock. You made a very good, eloquent point in regard to how this is going to benefit your area, and I feel a lot of what you have in your area in Algoma–Manitoulin.

Unfortunately, I didn’t get to the point that I wanted to make in regard to—and I will make it the next time, Mr. Speaker, when the clock comes around the second time.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Thanks very much. Questions and comments?

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: I appreciate the opportunity to debate again today and talk about this Bill 2, the healthy homes renovation tax credit.

I had the opportunity to give a 20-minute presentation on this legislation a week ago, and I must say, my concerns are still the same. This is a piece of legislation that was the second-most important act by this government after it was elected. The first, of course, we know, is the ancient parliamentary right bill that is placed before the House; that stays on the order paper until it prorogues.

This bill was, obviously, the first piece of public policy that this government decided to put forward. They did it over 10 months ago, and 10 months later, here we are. It took us an unprecedented two weeks to put forward legislation, Bill 115, on a province-wide wage freeze for educational professionals, and here we are, 10 months later, and what they will consider a signature piece of their financial plan for seniors still hasn’t passed because they don’t have the will to do it. It is more about public relations than it is about public policy.

This is a very interesting trend—an unhelpful one, nonetheless—with this government. I think that it’s important for those who are watching this debate at home to recognize that, whatever they’re saying from the Liberal Party on this piece of legislation, it is not met with absolute conviction. Why? Because it took them 10 months to come to this point and arrive at this point to talk about a bill that they’re not intending to pass.

Speaker, I’m pleased again to be able to support my Progressive Conservative colleagues in opposing this piece of legislation.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments? The Minister of Energy.

Hon. James J. Bradley: Thank you very much—

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Minister of the Environment, sorry.

Hon. James J. Bradley: I’ve been given some additional responsibility.

What—I won’t say amazes me—surprises me a bit is the degree of negativity that we have toward a bill that I think is a very significant step forward in terms of providing services for seniors. I recognize that in the best of all worlds, when there’s unlimited money available, you may want to expand programs of this kind.

I’ve been reading two books that my friend in the front benches of the NDP would be interested in: Minding the Public Purse, by the NDP Minister of Finance in Saskatchewan, and another by Thomas Walkom about the days of the NDP in the province of Ontario. There was a recognition at that time—I’ll put it in the context of this bill—that there were major economic challenges. When governments want to move forward, when they have to take certain action, sometimes they have to do it in a more modest way than otherwise would be the case.

I hear particularly some of my friends, and the speaker whose remarks we are addressing, calling for more spending in this area. Yet during at least the first two thirds of question period, they were up demanding that the government spend less money. But when they get into debate in the morning—perhaps when not everybody is watching television—they’re demanding that the government spend even more money and that it be an expanded program.

I think this is a significant step forward. I am flummoxed by the fact that the Legislature has not passed this bill rather quickly. But the opposition has chosen, as is their right, to take a long time in dealing with the bill, which they keep telling us is a relatively routine bill. So I’m looking forward to approval of this in the very near future.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Mr. Rosario Marchese: I think the analysis by the Minister of the Environment is fairly accurate. The good thing about what Liberals are saying today that they weren’t saying four or five years ago with their bills—with their bills, they used to say, “This is historic,” as if it were really revolutionary. They’re not saying that anymore about the picayune little bills that they introduce. So at least they now talk modestly about measures that might help some people.

I have to admit that the analysis of the Tories is quite correct, because it’s similar to ours, except the answers to these questions are radically different, as you might imagine.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: Oh. I can’t get over that.

Mr. Rosario Marchese: The member from Ottawa–Nepean would agree with that, I’m assuming.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: No.

Mr. Rosario Marchese: No? Because the Tories say we are not doing very much for seniors—and they’re quite right—and presumably that they have the right position on seniors. Yet if you look historically at what her previous regime did, they decimated the Ontario population, both young and old. They cut $13 billion of corporate taxes, thus reducing our province to so very little that we had nothing for seniors, nothing for children, nothing for anyone. In fact, in a great economy, they left us with a $5-billion deficit. So the Tories have little to teach us by way of what we can learn from the past. This is true.

This is a little bill, and it will benefit a few people. We argue about 1% of the population will benefit, and these are the one-percenters, the very, very wealthy. I know the Minister of the Environment may not like that part of it. I suspect he—

Interjection.

Mr. Rosario Marchese: But he’s right. It will help some people, and we should get on with it; it doesn’t do very much for the majority of seniors.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): The member from Haliburton–Kawartha Lakes–Brock has two minutes.

Ms. Laurie Scott: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I appreciate the input from my colleagues from all sides. I think that as people get older, the last thing they want to do is be dependent on their families or their government. The McGuinty government has made such a mess of the economy that their families are hurting also and, may I say, the hydro bills, the home heating bills––the cost of living is going through the roof.

So their families are struggling with the fact that when their seniors, their parents or grandparents, can’t stay in their own homes because of bad policy, the high cost of living, high energy, high heat, they have to struggle even to help them. Does that help the seniors population stay in dignity, help them stay in their own homes a little longer if they could afford to? It doesn’t.

You see a piece of legislation brought in that helps such a minuscule number of seniors, when the government could change the approach of how they help seniors in a more holistic way of more home care services. They can do that all within the ministries’ budgets that they do have. They need to reallocate. There is tons of wasteful spending within these ministries. So let’s step back and say, how do we really help seniors stay at home?

This piece of legislation, the healthy homes renovation tax credit—well, as my colleague from Oxford said, it might be healthy for the home but it’s really not helping the senior stay within the home. So we aren’t giving constructive criticism, saying, “Nice title”––it helps a very small group of seniors. I gave the statistics from my riding of how few seniors are going to be helped. Let’s get to some real meat of the matter in trying to help the seniors stay at home.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Further debate?

Mrs. Jane McKenna: It’s a pleasure to rise this morning to comment on Bill 2,

An Act to amend the Taxation Act, 2007 to implement a healthy homes renovation tax credit. As some of my colleagues have noted, this legislation has been with us for some time now. It has returned from committee, much like we recently came back to the Legislature from the House summer hiatus, and, as in that case, you’re tempted to say, “Look at you. You’ve hardly changed a bit.”

As viewers will know, there isn’t as much of a crackle in the air about Bill 2 as there was when the House was called back earlier; there’s not much in the way of electricity in the air, maybe because this bill was introduced nearly 10 months ago and we’re only now getting around to third reading. Project overrun, I guess; it happens.

It’s hard to find skilled tradespeople when they keep leaving the province for opportunity in other jurisdictions. In any event, here we are again debating the healthy homes renovation tax credit, a bill that proposes to allow seniors to claim a refundable tax credit of up to $1,500 for expenses related to permanent modifications to their homes: the kind of changes that would make it easier to live in their place; the kind of changes, if I understand the legislation correctly, that would improve their home without adding value to it; the kind of changes that presumably the next homeowners won’t see as a value added; the kind of features they might even pay a contra to remove.

I understand that this kind of behaviour is intended to avoid government subsidizing things like hot tubs, saunas and pools, but the wording still strikes me as a little strange. To recap, Bill 2 would offer a 15% rebate on home renovations up to $10,000. You would still have to pay the HST, of course, and you would have to wait until the tax cycle to recover your credit. But you would be in line to receive anywhere from $1 on a $50 home renovation, to $200 on a $10,000 home renovation.

Like many members on this side of the House, I have my doubts about the number of seniors with a spare $10,000 kicking around to take advantage of an offer like this. In my constituency office, seniors aren’t calling up, asking why the government won’t make it easier for them to install grip bars in their bathroom; they’re coming in and calling around with much more pressing and serious concerns. They often end up at the end of their rope, and when they call up their elected representative, it is because they are at their last resort. These are people who are discouraged, distraught and desperate, people struggling to retain their dignity as they plead for help.

What does Bill 2 do for them? How does it help them live a better life in the house they chose to spend their golden years in? It really doesn’t. We’re now seeing seniors forced by cruel circumstances into working long into what are supposed to be the retirement years. People joke about Freedom 75, but nobody is really laughing. They’re choking back tears and anger.

The vast majority of seniors can’t afford a $10,000 renovation, and those that can don’t need the modest tax credit that this bill is offering. It’s smoke and mirrors. The truth is, really, that most Ontarian seniors are making choices between which bills get paid this month. They’re scrambling to pay monstrous hydro bills and struggling to understand why their heating bill has doubled since 2003. They’re justifiably shocked to hear about the gold-plated FIT energy rates. They’re simply appalled at the $190-million bill for the cancellation of the Mississauga power plant. They are connecting the dots.

They’re wrestling with medical expenses and pharmacy costs. If the government really wanted to help Ontario’s seniors and had the political will to strap together a $60-million short-term money allocation, we could do much better than Bill 2.

Some three quarters of the seniors in this province see their hydro bills as unaffordable, so I don’t quite understand how those same seniors can dig under the couch cushions to find money for a substantial home renovation. Where are you going to find the $10,000 that you have to borrow? Where is the sense in expecting people to borrow $10,000 to foot the cost of a home renovation when those same people can barely pay their bills?

Most people look at Bill 2 and are saddened by the sobering reality that after helping to raise this province to greatness, mind you, they are left in a situation where they are unable to spend $10,000 on their home. They simply don’t have that type of disposable income. It boils down to this: Wealthier seniors will do renovations whether we incent them or not. Poor ones have more pressing concerns than walk-in tubs or chair lifts.

This is a very modest, very slender bill that benefits at best a sliver of the population. We’ve heard about 380,000 people aged 65-plus that this bill is supposedly going to help, but this government’s own stats show around 1.89 million Ontarians aged 65 or over, so 80% of seniors are being left out in the cold with this bill.

Bill 2 was the chalk outline of a good intention, so on the whole, I’m not really sure how much merit to attach to it. This is mainly a window-dressing bill for the Liberals. Like the tuition reduction for post-secondary students, it speaks to a personality tic, a well-documented history of picking and choosing small-target demographics for political reasons.

I’m not really sure what the government is up to by bringing it forward, especially the way that it has. This has gone to committee and returned for third reading. Then, rather than promptly put it to a vote, they decide to make it a bit player in the by-election drama. It has been taking up space on the stage here so that the minority government can avoid the business at hand, the responsibility of the minority government of seriously working with the members of this side of the House, using our best ideas to improve this province.

This is another piece of legislation that is constructed not out of caring but out of calculation. It’s designed to do a great deal of good for the optics and interests of the Liberals. This isn’t about helping seniors live in their homes longer; it is about doing what helps to make the party opposite hold on to that side of the House a while longer.

What I’m hearing from Ontarians is that there is indeed a growing appetite for renovation. We’ve heard the government say that the program costs for the tax credit would be offset in other areas, and when we hear that the costs for this initiative will be carried by others, what we’re hearing is the story of the opportunity costs.

What would we be able to do with our time here as legislators, with our resources as provincial government, if we weren’t dealing with this foot-dragging filibuster? What if we actually addressed the kind of pocketbook concerns that have a real, immediate, cumulative and ongoing effect on the health, welfare and quality of life of seniors in Ontario?

What if, instead of the PR-centric Bill 2, this government had sped Bill 4 through committee and back to third reading? If the government considered seniors’ concerns to be truly a priority, it could see Bill 4, the HST rebate for home heating, stickhandled through the House and into law by Thanksgiving. They could sort out the committees, sending it back out into the House for third reading, and do some good for Ontario seniors before the sub-zero temperatures set in.

We have already had some cold nights this week, and furnaces will come on again. The radiators will be warming up here at Queen’s Park, and the hydro bills in Ontario mailboxes will send chills down spines. Instead, that bill will probably celebrate its first anniversary, its first birthday, stalled out in committee, yet it was introduced the same day as Bill 2.

We should really be debating and approving a plan that would acknowledge the 600,000 men and women who are unemployed in this province and adopt measures that would create the kind of environment in which jobs would flourish, the kind of Ontario where there is work for all who want to work, the kind of Ontario that has opportunities for all Ontarians in an Ontario that delivers on its promises.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Mr. Michael Mantha: Bill 2 should have passed a long time ago. This is something that we’re going to move forward with that will assist some. It should have been done a long time ago. We should have been moving on to the greater things that our seniors need.

I don’t know what you’re hearing at the doors, but this is what I’m hearing at the doors: It’s desperation. Our seniors really want to have the assistance in their homes. They want to have their care in their homes so they can stay in their homes. They want to have assistance to get the shovelling done. They want to have assistance with mobility in order to get to the grocery store so they don’t have to get caught up and moved into a home.

This is what people are really looking for. This is what our seniors are asking for. This bill needs to move forward. Push it, let’s get it done, and let’s move on with the real important issues where we can really start moving with our seniors.

I would suggest to this government to actually consider what our neighbouring province is doing. Quebec has a program that provides assistance to low-income seniors aged 65 and over who need to make minor adaptations to their homes or apartments in order to continue to live in their homes. This program does not limit itself to 15% of the cost but, rather, provides the full reimbursement up to a full cost of $3,500. This is something that could work here.

If we want to put meat to this bill, this—let’s get this one out of the way. Hopefully it will move, and some of our seniors will benefit from it. But it will certainly not address the needs of the seniors in Algoma–Manitoulin who have been questioning me at the door: “What is our government doing for me today to assist me so I can live in my home?”

Let’s move this thing forward.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Mr. Bill Mauro: Thank you to the member from Burlington for her comments. Bill 2 is, in fact, a good bill and it will help a number of seniors in the province of Ontario remain in their homes. It will help them financially. You do not have to spend $10,000 to be eligible for the credit. You can spend a maximum of $10,000 in every year and get 15% back on that, just to clear that up.

Speaker, part of the discussion that’s taking place here today when it comes to this particular bill is framing this particular piece of legislation as if it is the only thing that our government has done for seniors since coming into government in 2003. I want to quickly, in the short time that I have, run down some of those other things that we’ve done since 2003: enhancements to the energy and property tax credit for seniors, providing a credit maximum of up to $1,025 annually; personal income tax cuts—93% of payers in the province now pay less—about $200 annual savings.

The Ontario sales tax credit: The new permanent tax credit provides an annual payment of up to $260 for every senior in addition to the existing GST credit.

Seniors in the north: This was worked on very hard by our Liberal northern caucus. Northern residents who pay rent or property tax for their principal residence are eligible for an annual credit of up to $130 if you’re a single person, up to $200 for a family.

The Ontario senior homeowners’ property tax credit doubled to $500 in 2010, announced in our 2008 budget. The government is providing about $1 billion. We’ve increased access to their locked-in accounts; income splitting for seniors. Additionally, seniors: 10% off your electricity bill for the next five years. It’s called the Ontario clean energy benefit, available to everybody in the entire province of Ontario.

So, far beyond just Bill 2, there’s a whole long list of things that we’ve done for seniors in the province of Ontario.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments.

Mr. Randy Pettapiece: I’m pleased to rise to speak about this bill. I hear the members from the NDP wanting this bill pushed through, that we’ve got to hurry up and get it going. But the reason it wasn’t pushed through is because this government is more interested in destroying industry than creating it, and I point to the horse racing industry, where they just got rid of 30,000 jobs. They moved on that at lightning speed. I can understand why they didn’t bring this bill. They would rather move in that direction.

It was pointed out by members opposite that there’s a 10% credit on paying—

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Stop the clock. Folks, I’d like to remind the official opposition that their member is standing up and trying to say something, and I’ve got two people who are louder than him. Maybe you want to show some respect to your fellow colleague by keeping it down a bit. And I’d ask the decibel level to go down over here. It seems to be a problem area right now.

Thank you. Go ahead.

Mr. Randy Pettapiece: Thank you, Speaker.

The government has pointed out that there’s a 10% reduction in hydro rates that they got through a previous time. But their hydro rates have gone up some 40%, so it doesn’t make any sense here. It hasn’t had the effect that this government certainly had hoped it would make.

With their failed Green Energy Act and putting people out of work in the horse racing industry, you can understand—it’s interesting why they wouldn’t want to push this bill ahead a little sooner. But they’re too interested in doing that. They have no job creation legislation. Industry is leaving this province in record levels.

Interjection.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Haliburton–Kawartha Lakes–Brock, last warning.

Mr. Randy Pettapiece: Thank you, Speaker.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments.

Ms. Teresa J. Armstrong: I’m always pleased to rise and talk about any bill that’s come before this House. Sometimes things take a lot longer than they should, but we have to respect the process and debate it out and have discussions about it. We’re here in this Legislature to get results for Ontarians, so I hope that bills don’t drag out this long on other items that are very crucial, and seniors are a very crucial part of my community of London–Fanshawe. I know that some—and we’ve said this repeatedly—of our seniors in my community will benefit from this.

But I think when you look at this bill, the seniors that will be able to get the full effect from this are those who have $10,000 to spend, to get at least a $1,500 rebate.

But seniors are also—their lifestyle encompasses, of course, money. Income is a major focus of everyone when you’re surviving day to day, trying to make ends meet at home. But for seniors also, there are segments of that that we’re not thinking of when we look at this bill, and that’s things that keep you in your home day to day.

Sometimes seniors are older and they can’t do their laundry. The laundry is very heavy, or they can’t bend down to pick up their laundry; or, as my colleague from Hamilton Mountain said, shovel the snow, cut the grass. This year we’ve had drought and it’s been extremely hot. I don’t see any seniors going out to cut the grass. It’s a shame this bill doesn’t incorporate that part of a senior’s lifestyle, to keep them in their homes.

It has to be two-parts: income, in order to make sure that physically they can remain in their home, or apartment for that matter—that’s been one that’s kind of been of this bill—and the other part being the day-to-day, everyday life chores that seniors physically can’t do, that they need help with.

So I’d like to pass this bill and move on to the next item that’s crucial to other Ontarians. I certainly understand the seriousness of it, but we do need to get on with that.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): The member from Burlington has two minutes to respond.

Mrs. Jane McKenna: In my earlier segment, I mentioned the cruel joke of Freedom 75. I should say that seniors, some of whom are still working, obviously, are as worried about the economy as anyone. They are worried about it for themselves and for their families, their friends, their communities, their children and their grandchildren. They’re watching as their grandchildren emerge from university or college to an unemployment wasteland.

They’re starting to do the math and realizing that this government has presided over an economy that has now gone well over five years with an unemployment rate above the national average. The Ontario that they grew up with has changed in some very profound and disappointing ways. They invested their lives here; they invested their love here. And this government has let them down: billion-dollar boondoggles like Ornge and eHealth, cynical electioneering—these examples are too numerous to list—preaching transparency but religiously evading accountability, as it has on the cost of the power plant cancellation in Mississauga and Oakville. Again—

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Stop the clock. I would suggest to the member from Burlington that she stick to the issue. You’re drifting. Okay? We’re talking about a bill; we’re not talking about those other things.

Mrs. Jane McKenna: Again, if we’re here talking about seniors staying at home, if we’re talking about a tax credit that will make their lives easier, the government could do a lot of good by warming up to legislation like the HST rebate for home heating bill—real relief. Until we see a day like that, the Ontario PC caucus has misgivings about the government’s claims that care and relief for seniors is much of a priority for them.

Third reading debate deemed adjourned.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): It being past 10:15, this House stands recessed until 10:30 this morning.

The House recessed from 1017 to 1030.

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

Mr. Ernie Hardeman: I want to recognize the members of the Alliance of Ontario Food Processors who are with us in the Speaker’s gallery today, including their chair, Craig Richardson. I hope all members will take the time to, first of all, read the economic impact study that they presented today at Queen’s Park for us to read as to what they do in our economy; and secondly, to attend their reception this evening in rooms 228 and 230 to learn more about this very important industry to the economy of Ontario.

Mr. John Vanthof: I would also like to recognize the Alliance of Ontario Food Processors and specifically an old sparring partner of mine, Tom Kane.

Mr. Bob Delaney: It’s my pleasure, in the members’ east gallery, to introduce to the Legislative Assembly Maisie Robinson.

Mr. Randy Pettapiece: I’d like to introduce Lloyd and Mary Lou Lichti from Stratford; Rick O’Donnell; his wife, Angela Huang; his mother, Verna O’Donnell; and his aunt, Velma McKellar, all from Mitchell. Welcome.

M me France Gélinas: I have a series of guests to introduce. They will be making their way in. It’s Bill Jeffery, the national coordinator for the Center for Science in the Public Interest; Dr. Mary L’Abbé, who is the chair of the department of nutritional sciences, faculty of medicine, at the University of Toronto; Megan Ogilvie, who is from the Toronto Star, author of Menu Confidential; Dr. David Hammond from the School of Public Health and Health Systems at the University of Waterloo; Heather Manson, the chief of health promotion, chronic disease and injury prevention at Public Health Ontario; Mrs.

Patricia Hughes, executive director of the Law Commission of Ontario; Mrs. Judi Farrell, executive director of Hypertension Canada; and Dr. Doug Weir—well known to us—president of the Ontario Medical Association.

I also have Dr. Bryan Bollinger from the school of business at New York City University, and Christina Huang, who is from Santa Monica. They’re all here at Queen’s Park in rooms 228 and 230, talking about Writing on the Wall, for putting calorie labelling on menus. They will be making their way in, but they invite everybody to drop in at lunchtime in rooms 228 and 230.

Hon. Christopher Bentley: I’m delighted this morning—Rocco Forgione, who is the father of my legislative assistant, Andrew, will be joining us in the Legislature today to watch the proceedings. I would like to welcome him to the Legislature.

LEGISLATIVE INTERNS

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): On Monday, I made a mistake. Today, I correct it.

We have with me in the Speaker’s gallery today the new team of the Ontario legislative interns. Please join me in warmly welcoming Simmerpreet Anand, Connor Bays, Anthony Boland, Joshua Borden, Elizabeth Elder, Andrea Ernesaks, Gillian Hanson, Leanna Katz, Hibah Sidat and Lauren Tarasuk. Welcome to Queen’s Park, and good luck.

As I did have an opportunity to meet the interns: They’re hiring you; you’re not hiring them, so behave yourselves. Thank you for joining us, and thank you for the help that you provide through this program to all of our members.

ORAL QUESTIONS

AGENCY SPENDING

Mr. Peter Shurman: My question is for the Premier this morning. Premier, a few weeks ago when you were pretending to get tough on one sector of the public service, you put the rest on notice, or so you claimed. “We’re coming,” you warned, when speaking about an across-the-board public sector wage freeze. But despite your assurances, the only thing that’s coming is an MPAC convention for its 1,500 or so government employees today in Toronto.

You can’t talk about fiscal responsibility out of one side of your mouth and at the same time allow your employees to organize a convention right smack in the middle of the Toronto International Film Festival, when hotel and convention space are at a premium.

Why, when faced with Ontario’s debt and deficit, did you allow this extravagant convention to move forward? When are you finally going to put your money, so to speak, where your mouth is and actually take responsibility for the costs your government keeps incurring?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: To the Minister of Finance.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: We have no authority over the decisions of MPAC, which is municipally operated.

Let me say to the member opposite that I concur. I thought it was kind of a boneheaded thing to do. I don’t understand it. It’s not a good use of money. I’m arranging to speak to the Chair—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Members on all sides, let’s bring the tone down, please.

Minister of Finance.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: I will be speaking to the Chair. Unfortunately, we have no power of directive over them. They are controlled by the municipalities of Ontario in a structure that was set up by your government. But again, I concur with you. I thought it was inappropriate, a terrible use of money, absolutely the wrong thing to do, and I’d ask them not to do it again. I don’t know how we can retrieve that sort of thing, but we find it as unacceptable as you do.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Peter Shurman: Speaker, the MPAC convention is not just your average gathering of employees. I wish that it were so. This is a convention where government employees will be wined and dined, the event catered by a vendor who boasts that they’ve served the likes of Oprah, Elizabeth Taylor and Karl Lagerfeld. How very TIFF of you, Premier.

In addition to covering the costs of extravagant catering, taxpayers are on the hook for the better part of $1 million so that government employees can play team-building Lego games and perhaps do a little stargazing while they’re at it. MPAC people, by the way, received an 8% pay hike in contract settlements early this year.

Premier, this is not just wasteful spending; frankly, it’s offensive. You’ve been trying to convince us that you’ve found religion when it comes to reckless spending, but clearly that conversion has not yet taken place. What is the explanation for this latest Liberal spending scandal?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: I just remind the member opposite that MPAC is not a provincial agency; it’s a municipal agency. I just remind him—let me remind him. I concur. It’s an inappropriate use of municipal tax dollars. I completely concur with that. There is a 15-member board, of which there are two provincial representatives. The Chair is chosen by the municipal employees.

Let me stress: I think it’s an inappropriate use of money, I concur entirely with the official opposition; I was quite astounded when I heard about it and I think it’s an inappropriate use of municipal money. I concur, and I’m glad we’ve had an opportunity to discuss this in the context of broader restraint that we are—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Final supplementary.

Mr. Peter Shurman: I’m glad that the minister concurs. We have listened to your assurances, but the facts speak for themselves.

The government is not scoring any points when it comes to oversight and management. This week’s frivolous MPAC convention is not the first and not the only example of government mismanagement. EHealth, the Windsor Energy Centre more recently and, much more disturbingly, Ornge are all scandals that Ontario couldn’t and cannot afford. At best, these are examples of a shameful waste of taxpayer money. At worst, they endangered the health, indeed, the lives of Ontario residents.

Ontarians cannot afford any more scandals, any more frivolous government conventions and any more platitudes. When will your government finally start doing your job and commit to protecting Ontario taxpayers, rather than abusing their trust?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: We have in fact laid out a plan. I’ll be reporting public accounts tomorrow morning in terms of achievements to date. I concur with the opposition about this particular circumstance.

I’d also remind the opposition that the PC Party promised to put their expenses for meals, hospitality and other things all online. That was 2010, Mr. Speaker. They never have. They have not put the expenses for their leader’s office. I concur on MPAC. I would simply ask you to quit hiding your meals, your hospitality, your leader’s travels. I hope he’s not expensing his fishing licence anymore.

But thank you for raising MPAC. I agree: absolutely inappropriate use of municipal tax dollars.

AGENCY SPENDING

Mr. Monte McNaughton: My question is for the Premier. The Liberal government just doesn’t get it. They can’t wrap their heads around the fact that their reckless overspending has Ontario headed down a path to economic and financial ruin. The scandal and waste we’ve seen for nine years continues unabated. Despite 57,000 Ontarians losing their jobs last month, fat-cat bureaucrats, your bureaucrats in the Liberal government, continue to feast at the taxpayer trough. Hundreds of thousands of dollars—that’s the price tag for a ritzy two-and-a-half-hour bureaucratic Lego party.

Will the Premier step aside and let the PC caucus clean up his mess and return Ontario to economic and fiscal health?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: To the Minister of Finance.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: Again, I concur. I think it’s an inappropriate use of money. The board needs to deal with that. Unfortunately, the government of Ontario can’t impact it. It’s a municipal board; it is controlled by municipalities.

Interjection.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: You know, MPAC—that’s right, my colleague reminds me—Municipal Property Assessment Corp. I concur: It’s a horrible use of municipal taxpayers’ money.

And I would ask the member, will you ask your leader to now start posting his hidden expenses so people can see how much he’s spending on meals and on travel, so we can see if he’s still expensing his fishing licence or if he is still expensing his Chicken McNuggets?

I concur: The MPAC boondoggle is unacceptable to taxpayers and unacceptable to this government. Unfortunately, we don’t have—

Interjections.

Supplementary?

Mr. Monte McNaughton: Thank you, Speaker, and back to the Premier: The public service is laughing at you. They’re laughing in your face. You’ve known about this for months and you’ve done nothing. You continue to pass the buck.

Bureaucrats thought it was entirely responsible to rent the Toronto centre for the arts at a cost of $200,000. Why? To play with Lego. Apparently they also felt it was reasonable to wine and dine themselves like Cleopatra herself—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I can’t hear the question, opposition members.

Mr. Monte McNaughton: Like moths to a flame, the Liberals’ bloated and greedy government can’t say no to ripping off taxpayers every chance it gets. The Premier talks tough but is clearly a pushover, a paper tiger, someone the civil service has no problem defying.

When will the Liberal government get a grip, say enough is enough and put an end to its nine years of waste, scandal and corruption?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please.

Minister of Finance.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: Again, MPAC is a municipally run operation. There is no provincial tax money in that. They are independent of the government of Ontario.

We concur with the official opposition that this was not an appropriate use of municipal tax money. We find it unacceptable. We are continuing to reduce our deficit, to get back to balance.

I’ll be reporting out public accounts tomorrow, which I believe will reflect some of the challenges that still remain for us but will also show some of the progress we have been able to achieve working together, moving this province forward together, as we eliminate the deficit and continue to make important investments in health and education, which are essential to a brighter and better economic future for all Ontarians.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary.

Mr. Monte McNaughton: Just to be clear, it’s this government that appoints their cronies to run these agencies, boards and commissions.

The McGuinty Liberals have lost complete touch with reality. They feel entitled to their entitlements. Sadly, these entitlements always come at the taxpayers’ expense. Some 57,000 Ontarians lost their job last month, and this McGuinty Liberal government is busy playing with Lego and dining with movie stars.

The chair of MPAC justified this shameful spending, much like Minister Matthews justifies the $2.4 billion she poured down the drain at eHealth and Minister Bentley justifies his squandering of at least half a billion dollars on cancelled power plants.

Does the Premier acknowledge that this government’s spending is out of control, and will he fire every person responsible, including the chair of MPAC, for yet another spending scandal, more scandal that has occurred—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please.

Minister of Finance.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: It is important that we get back to balance. It is important to have full transparency and accountability in expenditures. I believe that this was an inappropriate use of municipal tax dollars. I don’t concur with those who think this is a good use of money. If I were with AMO I would be absolutely outraged.

But I also think it’s important for the opposition to start putting their expenses online. They said in 2010 they would do that as part of increased transparency and accountability. So while they get up on their hind legs and want accountability here—and they’re right to want that—I think taxpayers want to know how much they are spending and what they’re spending it on. I’ve got a whole list of very interesting things that have some historic connection to the now Leader of the Opposition, which we’ll be happy to talk about more.

But yes, the MPAC decision was a bad use of municipal tax dollars—no provincial money in it. We do not have the ability to run the day-to-day operations. I’ve expressed my concerns to the board and will continue to do so. I hope AMO will take them to task for this most unfortunate use of public money.

ONTARIO PUBLIC SERVICE

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My question is for the Premier. This morning the finance minister was in the papers insisting that we can expect more legislation, exactly the same kind of simplistic, unconstitutional legislation that the Premier has been warning against not so long ago. I want to know why the Premier is prepared to move ahead with a plan that he’s admitted many times isn’t working.

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I appreciate my honourable colleague’s interest in the next initiative we’d like to move ahead with, but I would encourage her to wait for the details before she attacks it. That will allow her to come to understand exactly what we want to do and how we want to do it.

But I can say at the highest level that, in keeping with the pronouncements that we made in our budget some six months ago, we think it’s important to understand that we’re all in this together. I speak to the broader public sector, all of us who have the privilege of working for Ontarians through the public sector, and we all have to find a way to be part of the solution. We want to do that in a way that is respectful of our collective agreements and the collective bargaining process, but we also want to be respectful of the taxpayers and their demands of us that we find a way to continue to protect health care and education as priority services.

So I encourage my honourable colleague to wait for the details. I’d be very interested in having her support, of course, as we move forward with that initiative.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Allow me to remind the Premier: Mere weeks ago the government denounced a Conservative plan for an “unconstitutional wage scheme” that would “cost families billions.” I just want to know when the Premier changed his mind.

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: Again, my honourable colleague—and I can appreciate that she is eager; if nothing else, she is eager. I would ask her to wait for some of the details and she will see that our initiative will indeed be respectful of the collective bargaining process and also of collective agreements. So I would encourage her to wait for the details, and obviously we would appreciate her support as we move forward together on behalf of the good people of Ontario to both tackle the deficit and protect those important public services that families have to count on.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: People want a government that focuses on their challenges. Instead, they see a Premier who’s plowing ahead with a plan that he has admitted himself will not work, a plan that’s causing turmoil in the classroom as we speak, a plan that will cost more in the long run to the good people of this province, a plan that his own MPPs are scrambling to distance themselves from, a plan his own cabinet is raising serious concerns about.

Is the Premier ready to stop playing politics and start focusing on a plan that will actually get real results for the people of this province?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: Speaker, I say to my honourable colleague, I think we’ve got a lot of common ground when it comes to finding ways to both protect and improve the quality of our public services like health care and education, but where we

part company is on the honourable leader of the third party’s refusal to acknowledge that we need to do something about the deficit. We need to tackle that in a thoughtful and responsible way. As I’ve been saying lately, we owe our children more than just a great quality education; we owe them a strong economy that creates good jobs for them.

So, we need to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time. We need to protect health care and we need to protect education, but we are also called upon to introduce some measures that show some restraint. If more than half the money that we spend as a government goes into compensation, I think we understand we have to do something about compensation. In particular, we’ve got to freeze it for a couple of years. That’s our approach, Speaker, and that’s where I

part company with my honourable colleague.

GOVERNMENT POLICY

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My next question is also for the Premier. Unfortunately, the people of Ontario keep seeing the same pattern from this government: short-term decisions that are more about politics than they are about people, and long-term costs that are being hidden from the public until they get stuck with a huge bill.

Does the Premier have faith in the public, or is he just concerned that if they actually knew the facts, his job would be at risk?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: Speaker, we’re making decisions—some of those are popular, some of those are less popular. My honourable colleague says we’re playing politics. Dealing with the ONTC matter is not an easy political issue, and it’s not one that’s designed to make us popular. Dealing with horse racing in Ontario is not an easy political issue. The principal purpose of that is not to make us popular. Dealing with teacher pay is not an easy political issue. The purpose of that is certainly not, initially, to make us more popular.

What I’m saying to my honourable colleague is that leadership has something to do with making decisions—some of those decisions are difficult, some of them will be necessarily unpopular, but that’s what leadership is fundamentally all about. So I’d invite my honourable colleague to acknowledge that at some point in time, stop finding parades in which she can jump in the front of and understand you’ve got to make some difficult decisions if you want to lead.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock, please. Be seated, please.

Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: I think it was the Tory bus that they jumped on recently, Speaker, never mind a parade.

Nonetheless, last month the Premier passed a very simplistic bill—a very simplistic bill—that affects our schools, but never mentioned once the Supreme Court challenge that’s sure to follow. He promised peace and stability in schools but, instead, he has brought turmoil to the classroom.

Now we’ve seen it with cancelled power plants that cost millions. We’ve seen it with the mess at Ornge. Why should the people believe that this government is interested in putting people first when time and again they put themselves first and leave people paying the hefty bill?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: Speaker, my honourable colleague believes that we should continue to subsidize ONTC at $400 per passenger. She believes that we should continue to subsidize horse racing at a cost of $345 million on an annual basis. She thinks that we should give teachers an increase in pay. She thinks that we should give doctors an increase in pay. She thinks that we should give everybody in the broader public sector an increase in pay.

In an ideal world, we’d be able to support all those things, but we don’t live in an ideal world. We live in this one, and our world has changed somewhat dramatically. We went through a very difficult recession. We’re now carrying a significant deficit. Our rate of economic growth is somewhat slow. There’s an 8% unemployment rate. So we’ve got to make some difficult decisions. We can’t fund everything in the same way that we did in the past, so we’ve got to make some choices.

We’re saying on behalf of Ontario families: We’re going to protect your schools and we’re going to protect health care. We’re going to eliminate the deficit as a foundation for a stronger economy. That’s what we need to do, Speaker, and that’s what we will do.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Unfortunately, Speaker, what the people see are choices that the Liberals make to take care of their own political interests first and foremost.

The Premier insists that his plan is working, but the people who make this province work every day are left with real serious doubts. They see turmoil in the schools. They see the highest electricity bills in the country, which they pay every month. The highest electricity bills in the country are paid by Ontarians. They see a job strategy that simply isn’t working, as hundreds of thousands of Ontarians remain without a job.

When is the Premier going to stop playing the same old political games and start working on a real plan to make life better for the people who pay the bills and make Ontario work?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I would be delighted to see some specifics of my honourable colleague’s plan to eliminate the Ontario deficit. I’d love to see some specifics, but I’m not going to hold my breath.

My honourable colleague raised the issue of turmoil in our schools. I would make to my honourable colleague the same invitation that I’ve extended to Ontario teachers. I know that we have entered into a rough patch when it comes to our relationship with Ontario teachers—some Ontario teachers. But I think we owe it to ourselves, as responsible adults, to keep finding a way forward, to keep working hard to re-establish a positive, constructive relationship in the way that has worked so well for kids.

I think we need to leave the students out of this. I think we need to find a way, teachers and government, to work together. We’ve enjoyed so much success during the past nine years on behalf of our students. Let’s find a way to re-establish that relationship going forward.

AGENCY SPENDING

Mr. John Yakabuski: My question is for the Minister of Finance. Minister, MPAC, a provincial agency answerable directly to you, is presently in the process of blowing hundreds of thousands of dollars on an extravagant Lego party. Not only are the MPAC bureaucrats gathering in Toronto during the Toronto International Film Festival—the most expensive time possible—but they’re being treated to high-end catering, entertainment and luxurious accommodations. The bureaucrats at MPAC must not be paying attention. They clearly didn’t get the minister’s memo about the debt crisis he created in the province of Ontario.

Ontario is on the verge of financial collapse, but the McGuinty Liberals just can’t stop spending. Can the minister inform the House if he will be demanding that MPAC recoup the costs of its high-priced Lego party, or will the taxpayers foot the bill once again?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: In fact, there is no directive power for the minister or for the government. It is a municipal corporation. I concur with the official opposition: I think this is a very inappropriate use of municipal tax dollars.

We laid out a budget that, in fact, reduced expenditures. We have brought the rate of growth in expenditures lower. That party voted against every one of those initiatives. They voted against lowering expenses across a variety—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Order, please.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: I would invite the member to look at the addendum to the budget, which detailed, line by line, where those expenditures were coming out. That is an important process.

With respect to MPAC, unfortunately, this is not a government agency, as you have suggested. It is in fact controlled by municipalities. It is municipal tax dollars. I do concur that this is an inappropriate use of tax dollars, and I would invite the board and municipalities to explain to taxpayers how they will recoup that money.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. John Yakabuski: Minister, you can spin this any way you want. You can dodge and duck any way you want. But you directly appoint all members of that board. Dodge and duck and try to avoid your responsibility here, but Minister, I say to you, you haven’t got a Lego to stand on.

The Liberals’ long-established legacy of waste and scandal continues unabated. In 2010, the Auditor General found that MPAC had spent $50 million over five years on goods and services, without supporting documentation. It turns out it was tailor-made golf clubs and gift cards and all kind of shenanigans. We now know they didn’t bother to get a receipt: 200 grand to rent a theatre, thousands of dollars on swanky catering, travel and accommodations—no wonder they don’t want a paper trail.

I ask you, Minister, will you admit that you have lost control of Ontario’s finances and fire every person responsible for this gross misuse of public funds?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you.

Minister of Finance.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: Yesterday, Mr. Speaker, they wanted to fire everybody at the Ministry of Health. Now they want to fire everybody at MPAC. It’s just a growing air of desperation.

With respect to the Auditor General’s recommendations from 2010, all of them have been acted on and implemented.

I concur—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Bruce-Grey, come to order.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: In the context of the economy today, I was as shocked and disappointed as the opposition was with what I consider to be—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Attorney General, come to order.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: —a very inappropriate use of municipal tax dollars.

I look forward to working with all members of this House as we move back to balance to make sure that things like this don’t happen again. I’ll be speaking with the two of 15 members of the board who are provincial appointees.

I concur completely. It was a very inappropriate use of money. It really does do harm to a good thing like Lego, which I think that member plays with a lot. I have to concur with his anger and upset at this. I think it was very inappropriate, and I thank you for giving expression to—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. New question?

NUCLEAR ENERGY

Mr. Peter Tabuns: My question is to the Minister of Energy. Yesterday, the government of Quebec confirmed that it will not refurbish the aging Gentilly nuclear plant. It says that refurbishing the plant is too expensive and hinders the shift to cleaner, safer renewable power. Why is the government of Ontario blindly proceeding with plans to refurbish the similarly outdated Darlington nuclear power plant before it even knows what it will cost?

Hon. Christopher Bentley: Interesting: Yesterday, the Atikokan facility in northwestern Ontario burned its last bit of coal. We’re getting out of coal by the end of 2014. We’re not putting it on standby like the NDP would; we’re getting out of coal.

Nuclear has long been a clean fuel that happens, in the province of Ontario, to contribute to the employment of 70,000 people. The Darlington facility, which the NDP commissioned, happens to be one of the most efficient and effective nuclear facilities in the world. It makes sense to refurbish it so it can continue to contribute to our energy output—a stable, clean supply for decades to come.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Peter Tabuns: The minister is nothing if not a great deflector. You do not know the cost of this. Quebec joins a growing list of jurisdictions around the world that are phasing out nuclear power because of growing safety concerns and rising costs: Belgium, Italy, Germany, Sweden and likely even Japan today.

Before deciding to proceed with the Darlington refurbishment, will the minister at least reveal to the people of Ontario the exact cost of this project and then allow a full consideration of cost-effective alternatives?

Hon. Christopher Bentley: We’ll always do what’s in the best interests of the people of the province of Ontario. Nuclear has been a strong part of our energy supply, supporting 70,000-plus people in the province of Ontario. To those 70,000 people and families, the NDP says, “No, you’re out of a job.” To the clean energy that comes from nuclear power, the NDP says, “No, we’d rather have coal on standby.”

It’s great to be against everything. They didn’t like the feed-in-tariff program. They don’t like private entrepreneurs bringing on clean, green electricity. They don’t like nuclear. They don’t like the jobs. One of these days, they’re going to tell us what they really do like.

HEALTH CARE

Mr. Bob Delaney: This question is for the Minister of Health and Long-Term Care. Although I regularly ask the minister about health care issues in my western Mississauga neighbourhoods of Lisgar, Meadowvale and Streetsville, today I’d like to ask her a question on behalf of Ontarians in the Northumberland area.

Our hospitals face many different pressures, some of which they have control over and some of which they do not. One such case of unplanned costs concerns recent outbreaks at Northumberland Hills Hospital. The hospital must deal with difficulties funding the $100,000 associated with these outbreaks.

Minister, what can we do to make sure hospitals like Northumberland Hills are in a position to effectively respond to outbreaks, while ensuring they have the necessary funds to provide excellent patient care?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I thank the member from Mississauga–Streetsville for this very important question.

I want to underline that patient safety is the number one focus in our hospitals. Providing high-quality care is their commitment to their patients. We know that if you track it, you can report it, and if you report it, you can improve it, and that’s exactly what we’re seeing when it comes to outbreaks in hospitals such as Northumberland Hills.

Northumberland Hills Hospital is a vital part of that community, and we’ve increased funding by $12 million since 2003. This year, they’re receiving $38.3 million. While sustaining funding for hospitals is important, we are also making the decision that we must now invest outside of those hospital walls—hold hospital budgets in line so we can invest more in community care.

We are seeing demonstrated results from this strategic decision. I’m proud to say that the CCAC in that area supports 53,000 people—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Bob Delaney: Minister, hospitals like Northumberland Hills need to benefit from Ontario’s commitment to improved patient safety and accountability. This hospital is working with the Central East Local Health Integration Network to improve patient safety. We appreciate the efforts of all of the front-line staff who work so hard from day to day.

Patients across the province are eager to know what this means for them. Minister, what does Ontario’s commitment to patient safety mean for patients, hospitals and health care workers across the province?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: Our commitment to patient safety means better patient care; it’s as simple as that. We know, as I’ve said, if we track it, if we measure it, we can improve it.

Let’s talk about wait times in the Central East LHIN. I’m very happy to say that 100% of cataract surgeries are now being performed within the target; 100% of hip replacements are being performed within the target; 99% of knee replacements are being performed within the target; and 96% of CT scans, 91% of pediatric surgeries and 99% of general surgeries.

Speaker, our decision many years ago to begin to measure and publicly report wait times has made a profound difference. It allows us to invest strategically where we’re not meeting wait times so that the people of the province, no matter where they live, get access to care in a timely way.

AGENCY SPENDING

Mr. Steve Clark: My question is to the Minister of Finance. The minister simply won’t come to terms with his addiction to wasteful spending, and the people of Ontario are fed up. Minister, how can you justify to those 600,000 men and women who are out of work in this province the fact that you condone the Municipal Property Assessment Corp.—that you appoint, sir—the fact that they’ve flown in 2,000 bureaucrats to the extravagant performing arts centre at the peak of TIFF for a two-and-a-half-hour Lego party?

Minister, I want to quote MPAC’s website: “MPAC is governed by a 15-member board of directors. Eight members of the board are municipal representatives; five members represent property taxpayers; and two members represent provincial interests. All members of the board are appointed by the Ontario Minister of Finance.”

Minister, you appoint the board. Stand in your place and tell us what you’re going to do about this.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: Mr. Speaker, I’d remind the member that, yes, we do appoint the municipal representatives based on the recommendations of AMO and the municipalities.

Interjection: He knows that.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: He knows that because it was in fact the Conservative government that set this very unwieldy creature up.

In my view, I don’t condone this expenditure. I think it’s a completely inappropriate use of municipal tax dollars. If I had the directive power to undo it, I would have undone it when I first heard about this about 24 hours ago. Unfortunately, I don’t have that. But what I can say is that we will continue to pursue a balanced budget in those areas that we control.

My hope is that AMO and our municipal partners will look at this carefully to decide how to handle it. I would invite the member to speak to his local mayors and others. I concur: I don’t think this is an appropriate use of taxpayers’ money. It does not make sense. I don’t think there’s any benefit to municipal taxpayers from this.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Steve Clark: Again to the minister: I can’t believe what I’m hearing. After nine years of scandal and waste that have led to record debt and deficits, I think we all have to acknowledge the elephant in the room. Minister, you have a serious addiction on wasted spending. I can’t understand why you condone what’s happening with MPAC, the fact that you bring them into town for a two-and-a-half-hour Lego party.

Minister, they are your boards. You appoint them. Do the honourable thing: Rein in their spending or resign.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please.

Minister of Finance.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: Speaker, I don’t condone this. If I had the legal authority to do what the member asks, I would likely exercise that authority. Regrettably, I don’t. Let me say again that I do not condone this. I hope our municipal partners will take this issue very seriously. I do not think it’s an appropriate use of taxpayers’ money.

I do appoint members based on the recommendation of our municipal partners. We do have two of 15 members on the board who are provincial appointees. This whole situation makes me wonder if we do have to look at the construct of this. It was badly set up initially by the previous government. I think we need to look at MPAC, its future, how it should be governed, who should own it and what’s appropriate. Unfortunately, the structure that was set up by the previous government has left us with no ability to influence this. But I do concur with the opposition: This is an inappropriate use of municipal tax dollars.

LABOUR DISPUTE

Mr. Paul Miller: My question is to the Minister of Labour. Speaker, in an August 22 meeting, the Ministry of Labour and the NHL in Toronto, the NHL Players’ Association, asked the province to set up a conciliation board to help solve the dispute. But for no apparent reason, the ministry refused the association’s request. Speaker, why is this government refusing to do whatever it can do to save the hockey season and the many, many economic benefits that flow from the game?

Hon. Linda Jeffrey: Speaker, I know—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I’m asking for order on all sides, please.

Minister.

Hon. Linda Jeffrey: Thank you, Speaker. I know many people across this province are looking forward to the start of the NHL season, but I would like to bring some clarity to what my ministry’s involvement is in the NHL labour negotiations, as I believe there are a few additional process details that would help Ontarians, and indeed fans, across the floor and across Canada better understand about the hockey negotiations.

In August, on the 22nd, a Ministry of Labour conciliator met with both the NHL and the players’ association. During that meeting, the NHL asked the Ministry of Labour to issue a no-board report. The no-board report places both the players’ association and the NHL in a lockout position 17 days after it’s issued. I want to point out that it only applies to teams in Ontario, the ones that reside in Ontario—the Toronto Maple Leafs and the Ottawa Senators—and that’s part of the larger process.

We obviously want to provide details to both sides, and we’re bargaining with respect to the teams. Across the US and Canada, these negotiations are going on. They’re governed by the respective principle—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Paul Miller: Hockey isn’t just another game for Ontarians. You spend your childhood being raised with the game. You devote long hours to playing it, watching it and talking about it. For millions of Ontarians, being a real Leaf—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I’m asking that the government side tone it down, please.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Not while I’m standing either.

Question.

Mr. Paul Miller: For millions of Ontarians, being a real Leafs fan or a real Sens fan is something you live, breathe and talk about every day, especially during hockey season.

Speaker, why does this government refuse the players’ association request for conciliation, which could have maybe helped save the upcoming season? Why don’t you stand behind the people of Ontario who want hockey?

Hon. Linda Jeffrey: Speaker, the process that the NHL and the players’ association went through happens without political interference, and it is no different than any other labour negotiations that take place across this province.

With respect to the players in Ontario, my ministry has offered mediation assistance, but so far that offer has not been accepted. I understand that the parties are now using the assistance of the Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service based in Washington, DC.

I know that many people across the province are interested in these negotiations, as am I, but certainly political interference is not what we do. We’ve got shared responsibility. We want to work with both sides and provide that neutral advice going forward, because we care about hockey too, on this side of the floor.

LABOUR RELATIONS

Mrs. Liz Sandals: My question is also for the Minister of Labour, but I’m afraid this is a little bit more directly under her control than perhaps hockey in North America.

Minister, this week I’ve been listening to the official opposition ask question after question about their white paper on health care. I understand this is actually the third paper that has been released and that the official opposition has previously released a white paper on labour. It’s actually that release that my constituents have been raising concerns about.

When they hear phrases like “right to work,” they’re very concerned that far-right-wing policies from the United States are making their way to Canada. My constituents tell me that they are afraid that these schemes will lower their wages and have an adverse effect on the economy. Yesterday, during the debate, I heard some comments about right to work from the official opposition.

I wonder, Minister, if you could reassure my constituents in Guelph that these tactics are not gaining ground in—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

Stop the clock for a second. First of all, I am standing, and you used your time. Second of all, when the

preamble takes place—for all members—I would wish that you would make it clear so that I can make a decision on whether or not it is policy. I know that the question was probably going to wrap that up, but if you do not put your question that way, I may have to bring you back to the policy question.

Now it’s time for the Minister of Labour to answer that question.

Hon. Linda Jeffrey: I want to thank the member for a very important question. Over the last eight years, we worked really hard to create a fair and balanced environment for labour negotiations in Ontario. To do that, we’ve rebuilt relationships that were damaged by the governments that preceded us. This fair and balanced approach to labour relations presents a fairly stark contrast to the divide-and-conquer approach of the official opposition.

In their white paper, they make a lot of unsubstantiated claims about how right-to-work legislation will help Ontario compete with the US market. Leaders across Canada have continuously rejected the these claims, including Ralph Klein’s Conservative government in Alberta, which determined that right-to-work legislation was unnecessary in helping that province compete with the US.

They based their decision on a 1995 KPMG report which actually indicated that it costs less to do business in Canada. Today that’s still the case. Canada ranks third in business costs and the US sixth.

Ontarians are not willing to compromise on their salaries, their quality of life and a fair and balanced environment for employers and employees.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mrs. Liz Sandals: Thank you, Minister, for helping to clarify how our policy differs from the official opposition’s and how governments of all stripes have been rejecting that right-to-work policy across Canada.

Based on what you’ve said, we seem to be in a good position here in Ontario. Our economy has recovered more than 100% of the jobs lost in the last recession; our minimum wage has increased by 50% since 2003, after nine years of no increases; and our government has built up and maintained a high standard of living for Ontarians.

The official opposition seem convinced that bringing in a right-to-work scheme will increase wages, improve the economy and bring jobs to the province. What has been the actual experience of US states with right-to-work legislation, and how does Ontario compare?

Hon. Linda Jeffrey: Again, thanks for the question. The opposition would have us believe that this scheme would lead Ontario to higher wages, but the reality is that Ontario already has a higher median household income than every right-to-work state in the US. Furthermore, the median household income of right-to-work states is actually decreasing. Since 2008, over 70% of US right-to-work states have seen a decline in their take-home pay.

In Ontario, during the same time period, we saw our household incomes increase, and under the leadership of Ontario’s economy, we’ve recovered all those jobs that we lost in the recession by moving forward together. The opposition claim that their scheme will raise hourly wages. The reality is, our hourly wage manufacturing rate is higher than 87% of right-to-work states and 78% of non-right-to-work states.

Our government is proud of fair wages for Ontario families. I want the member to know that she can tell her constituents that the opposition’s white paper is on a labour path to lower wages, a path to a smaller economy and a path that races to the bottom.

AIR AMBULANCE SERVICE

Mr. Frank Klees: My question is to the Premier. Speaker, I want to bring to the attention of the House and to the public that the government is intentionally obstructing the work of the committee investigating the Ornge scandal. The Premier has now refused on two occasions to testify before the committee. Sophia Ikura, the Premier’s senior adviser on health policy, also refused to appear. The government House leader refused to appear to testify before the committee. Now that same government House leader is delaying the reconstitution of the public accounts committee so that it can carry on its important work.

I would like to know from the Premier: How can he justify causing this obstruction to the important work of this Legislature? Will he direct his government House leader to agree to reconstitute the committee to investigate the Ornge scandal?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please.

Premier.

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: To the Minister of Community and Social Services.

Hon. John Milloy: Mr. Speaker, I’m having trouble knowing where to start.

First of all, I never refused to appear in front of the public accounts committee. The fact of the matter is, the public accounts committee clerk sent me an email around 1:30 or 2 o’clock in the afternoon asking if I would appear the next day, and I said that my

schedule would not allow it. I think members of this Legislature appreciate that on short notice, it’s hard to move forward.

Second of all, it was the opposition party that insisted, when we constituted committees earlier this year, that that motion expire—it would have expired last Sunday, the last day before the sitting began—in an effort for House leaders to review the committee situation and engage in the types—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Order.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Order. That’s enough.

Answer.

Hon. John Milloy: As I say, with the opposition’s urging, the motion that set up committees expired—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Leeds–Grenville, come to order.

Hon. John Milloy: —on Sunday. We are now in the process of talking to House leaders to find out how we can move forward. So, as I say, the honourable member should get his facts straight before he stands up and asks such a ridiculous question.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Frank Klees: The government House leader can start now by agreeing to appear before the committee. Then the government House leader can agree to sit down with the House leaders and immediately reconstitute the public accounts committee, and then the government House leader can admit to this House that it was he who refused to call Bill 50 before the House for debate, and that’s why it still has not been passed.

Let’s ask the government House leader to get his facts straight, and let’s have the government House leader stand up now and say that committee will be reconstituted today, so it can get on with its work and that he’ll be the first witness to appear.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please.

Government House leader.

Hon. John Milloy: Again Mr. Speaker, it is the opposition parties that wanted the motion establishing the committees to expire, and we are now working with House leaders on how to move forward.

We are talking about the composition of committees, Mr. Speaker. We are not talking about the work that the committees are seized with, and the public accounts committee will still be seized with the Ornge issue. We look forward to—after I believe, what is it now, 57 witnesses, 84 hours of committee hearings, 800 pages of Hansard—the work of that committee in making the types of recommendations which will allow us to address the oversight of organizations like Ornge so that the situation there never occurs again.

We also look forward to the opposition parties to allow Bill 50 to move through this Legislature—an im-portant bill, which is the final piece of the puzzle in addressing some of the problems that were associated with that organization.

ABORIGINAL CHILDREN AND YOUTH

Mr. Gilles Bisson: My question is to the Premier. Premier, you’ll know that on the James Bay coast there has been an epidemic of attempted suicide by youth on the coast for some time. You will also know that, as a result of work that the communities did from Moose Factory to Peawanuck along with Payukotayno, which is a child and youth service, and help from the Toronto Star, I must add, and the New Democrats, your government gave Payukotayno $2 million to be able to do some work so they can be proactive in order to try to prevent those attempted suicides from happening.

We now learned this summer that you removed that $2 million—Payukotayno has lost $1.7 million out of their budget—which means to say there’s no longer an ability to do proactive work. They’re going to have to go back to reactive.

Why have you turned your back on the youth of the James Bay?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: To the Minister of Children and Youth Services.

Hon. Eric Hoskins: I thank the member opposite for the question. I want to start by saying that our government is committed to ensuring that children and youth who are being provided with support and protection from our children’s aid societies, including Payukotayno in the north, have every opportunity to reach their full potential. I w